The Orange Order

[marinello59]

You don't think the OO exists on this side of the country?

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It doesn't where I am. Should I have said Central Belt Culture then?

[ian cruise]

S'true. That part of Scottish culture which is anti-catholic and anti-irish is just treated as a laugh and giggle by some. The fact they say they "love" the royal family means they are more or less acceptable among the establishmenty classes and at least tolerated by snobbier sections. This can be proved by the facts that they exist, and that they show off their extremism loud and clear on a regular basis without comment.

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It's w bit like these dangerous groups in the US that hide behind the stars and stripes. Folk are afraid to call them out because "they're patriotic".

It's ridiculous the Orange Order nonsense is tolerated in this day and age.

[ian cruise]

It doesn't where I am. Should I have said Central Belt Culture then?

It exists outside Glasgow, they just realise they need to keep a low profile whereas here in the West they're emboldened.

[Berwickhibby]

You don't think the OO exists on this side of the country?

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It certainly does…I have to stomach their bloody March past my house every year (Fife) and I am apparently a Protestant (obviously non practicing)

[MrSmith]

It exists outside Glasgow, they just realise they need to keep a low profile whereas here in the West they're emboldened.

Trannent, Newtongrange & Penicuik are hotbeds for the OO. Growing up in Gracemount, I found many of the older Cabin regulars were affiliated to the OO. Mostly old miners but in it none the less. My old man being Polish and Catholic had a terrible time in the pits at Newtongrange and Bilston due to the OO. I'd absolutely have the OO made a terrorist group, if they can do it to some of the enviromental groups (love em or hate em) who try to do the right thing then the OO can be outlawed too. We must take the Rangers hate filled bigot fest at matches to task, it must stop. The irony and down right hypocrisy shown in their complaint is astonishing to say the least.

[weecounty hibby]

I went to college with a guy who still plays in the Fallin Crown Defenders flute band. Very first time I met him was on a Wednesday at college, we must have had a midweek game as I had my scarf with me. His introduction was "I hope you're no a mickey *******" I had never met him in my life before! I asked him why he was in the OO and he said if it wasn't for folk like him we would still be ruled by Rome. Sadly these bigots are all over Scotland and are a total blight on our society

[VoltaireHibs]

I love the history of the Masonic Order, how it started to where it is now and the amazing work it does. Can't help the OO interference and that becomes a slight on the lodges who accept these hatred filled morons. As an aside, I recommend for those who are interested to visit the Trades House in Glasgow. https://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/



The hatred is visible. It's the secret corruption that's the issue. The police being the notable one.

[VoltaireHibs]

What I would say is that being a lodge member in Edinburgh is not quite the same as being a lodge member in Glasgow, as others above have alluded to.

[gbhibby]

The reason for the linking the OO and Freemasons together is that there was especially in NI and also in Scotland there have been people in high places in both organisations that are the same person. There will be many articles written to this effect. So mud sticks.

There have also been articles written about terrorists in Northern Ireland who have been both members of prescribed Loyalist terrorist groups and the Orange Order

[McD]

I went to college with a guy who still plays in the Fallin Crown Defenders flute band. Very first time I met him was on a Wednesday at college, we must have had a midweek game as I had my scarf with me. His introduction was "I hope you're no a mickey *******" I had never met him in my life before! I asked him why he was in the OO and he said if it wasn't for folk like him we would still be ruled by Rome. Sadly these bigots are all over Scotland and are a total blight on our society



Folks like him :faf:

Probably thinks that playing a flute and wearing a funny outfit is the equivalent of going over the top at the Somme

[VoltaireHibs]

Folks like him :faf:

Probably thinks that playing a flute and wearing a funny outfit is the equivalent of going over the top at the Somme

This is the thing I don't get? They think they're defending the UK against something (catholicism I presume) but numbers attending church are declining to the point that the UK is basically a secular place. Who are these brave warriors fighting?

[Eyrie]

This is the thing I don't get? They think they're defending the UK against something (catholicism I presume) but numbers attending church are declining to the point that the UK is basically a secular place. Who are these brave warriors fighting?

Reality.

It's their number one challenge.

[cubehindthegoal]

Reality.

It's their number one challenge.

Yes. And of course they can never win that war. But unfortunately, they are all a disease, and so infect others of subsequent generations. Don’t think I’ll see a change in that human way. Pathetic verges on a complement …

edit: … and don’t get me wrong, prejudice on any side of any conflict isn’t a virtue, there is no right side to be on. I support Hibs partly as they were my local team from a child, and partly as they didn’t seem to hold the same prejudices close as others did. Let’s stay that way, and improve it. That’s worth fighting for, not the nonsense others spout.

Ok I’m getting off my soapbox lol … but I hope some folk see what I mean.

[tamig]

It certainly does…I have to stomach their bloody March past my house every year (Fife) and I am apparently a Protestant (obviously non practicing)

And in East Lothian sadly.

[cubehindthegoal]

And in East Lothian sadly.

“I am apparently a Protestant (obviously non practicing)“

Practicing … there’s a thought … I doubt many of those who march actually “practice” faith in the way it was apparently meant originally .. for example, practising tolerance 🤔

[Baader]

West of Scotland culture surely. It doesn't exist in most parts of the country.

Most certainly does. Unfortunately.

[Pretty Boy]

This is the thing I don't get? They think they're defending the UK against something (catholicism I presume) but numbers attending church are declining to the point that the UK is basically a secular place. Who are these brave warriors fighting?

I think for many now it's just a family tradition, albeit one I can't get my head around.

Historically the Order was largely a response to the United Irishmen and their 'dangerous' agenda of encouraging political unity between Catholics and Protestants and seeking to secure equal rights for all citizens in post plantation Ulster. The sectarian violence that had broken out sporadically post 1689/1690 had largely died down thanks to the influence of the UA but after the installation of a pro Catholic Viceroy in Ulster in the late 18th century the 'Peep O' Day' boys resumed a campaign of violence and the Catholic 'defenders' responded in kind. Of course the press of the day largely called the latter as a 'dangerous uprising', 'papist violence' and so on. The culmination was the so called Battle of the Diamond in 1795 and after this the Peep O' Day boys rebranded as the 'Orange Society'. Plenty current Orangemen will dispute their links to the Peep O' Day boys and it is somewhat tenuous. Whatever the history the early orange organisations were largely engaged in both political and violent combat with the United Irishmen throughout the 19th century. It was about maintaining Protestant superiority and it was sectarian. Of course there is context historically. You are talking about a time when the Jacobite risings in Scotland, the Battle of the Boyne and a Catholic Monarch were all still either in living memory or had only been passed down as stories a single generation. There was a genuine, and arguably legitimate, fear that a Catholic uprising was possible and the restoration of a Catholic monarchy was possible.

To some extent I can get why people want to commemorate 'their' victory and indeed continued existence (it's also well worth noting that the Catholic Church was hardly a model of tolerance in the years during and after the European reformation and there were plenty atrocities against various Protestant groups). However I celebrate my faith by going to Mass on a Sunday (and sometimes during the week if I'm feeling particularly pious:greengrin). Attendance at Mass holds up relatively well compared to previous decades, certainly in comparison to attendance in the CoS and largely helped by the arrival of our Polish neighbours in the early to mid 00s. Yet despite this terminal decline in attendance at the Kirk every summer we get this overt anger and antagonism from 'proud Protestants'. There is a paranoia to it which probably explains the 'people like me' quote above. There was a post on a Rangers forum recently that attributed Celtic's dominance in Scottish football in the last 15 years or so to the papal visit in 1982 because John Paul II encourage Catholics to stand up for their rights and faith and that meant mass (no pun intended) infiltration of government, the civil service, police, the SFA etc. How the **** do you reason with someone like that? There was also a video a couple of years back of someone attending an Orange march declaring 'I'm not religious, I'm an atheist'; when pressed as to why he was there he answered 'aye but I'm a Protestant atheist'. That is bizarre but also a discussed phenomena, the idea of people who aren't religious but identify as 'culturally Protestant'. I can't say I notice any real cultural difference between myself and my friends who are Protestant or indeed atheist but there you go. I suppose it's the same type of people who use social media to declare 'this is a Christian country' when what they really mean is 'I don't like Muslims'.

I think ultimately these people are defending themselves from nothing, it's an imagined war that they are fighting in their own heads. Largely fueled by stories of different times and different standards. In many ways I actually feel sorry for them, it must be a weird kind of emptiness to be so wrapped up in a hatred of an enemy that no longer exists. The fact is the Catholic Church in Scotland and Church of Scotland have never been closer, there was recently an accord of agreement and friendship signed. The various Bishops and Archbishops regularly work with the Moderator of the General Assembly and one even appeared before the General Assembly last year. A lot of that was unthinkable even 3 or 4 decades ago. The world has changed and some people would do well to move with it.

Anyway I'm risking consigning my own thread to the aptly named Holy Ground so I'll leave it there.

[VoltaireHibs]

I think for many now it's just a family tradition, albeit one I can't get my head around.

Historically the Order was largely a response to the United Irishmen and their 'dangerous' agenda of encouraging political unity between Catholics and Protestants and seeking to secure equal rights for all citizens in post plantation Ulster. The sectarian violence that had broken out sporadically post 1689/1690 had largely died down thanks to the influence of the UA but after the installation of a pro Catholic Viceroy in Ulster in the late 18th century the 'Peep O' Day' boys resumed a campaign of violence and the Catholic 'defenders' responded in kind. Of course the press of the day largely called the latter as a 'dangerous uprising', 'papist violence' and so on. The culmination was the so called Battle of the Diamond in 1795 and after this the Peep O' Day boys rebranded as the 'Orange Society'. Plenty current Orangemen will dispute their links to the Peep O' Day boys and it is somewhat tenuous. Whatever the history the early orange organisations were largely engaged in both political and violent combat with the United Irishmen throughout the 19th century. It was about maintaining Protestant superiority and it was sectarian. Of course there is context historically. You are talking about a time when the Jacobite risings in Scotland, the Battle of the Boyne and a Catholic Monarch were all still either in living memory or had only been passed down as stories a single generation. There was a genuine, and arguably legitimate, fear that a Catholic uprising was possible and the restoration of a Catholic monarchy was possible.

To some extent I can get why people want to commemorate 'their' victory and indeed continued existence (it's also well worth noting that the Catholic Church was hardly a model of tolerance in the years during and after the European reformation and there were plenty atrocities against various Protestant groups). However I celebrate my faith by going to Mass on a Sunday (and sometimes during the week if I'm feeling particularly pious:greengrin). Attendance at Mass holds up relatively well compared to previous decades, certainly in comparison to attendance in the CoS and largely helped by the arrival of our Polish neighbours in the early to mid 00s. Yet despite this terminal decline in attendance at the Kirk every summer we get this overt anger and antagonism from 'proud Protestants'. There is a paranoia to it which probably explains the 'people like me' quote above. There was a post on a Rangers forum recently that attributed Celtic's dominance in Scottish football in the last 15 years or so to the papal visit in 1982 because John Paul II encourage Catholics to stand up for their rights and faith and that meant mass (no pun intended) infiltration of government, the civil service, police, the SFA etc. How the **** do you reason with someone like that? There was also a video a couple of years back of someone attending an Orange march declaring 'I'm not religious, I'm an atheist'; when pressed as to why he was there he answered 'aye but I'm a Protestant atheist'. That is bizarre but also a discussed phenomena, the idea of people who aren't religious but identify as 'culturally Protestant'. I can't say I notice any real cultural difference between myself and my friends who are Protestant or indeed atheist but there you go. I suppose it's the same type of people who use social media to declare 'this is a Christian country' when what they really mean is 'I don't like Muslims'.

I think ultimately these people are defending themselves from nothing, it's an imagined war that they are fighting in their own heads. Largely fueled by stories of different times and different standards. In many ways I actually feel sorry for them, it must be a weird kind of emptiness to be so wrapped up in a hatred of an enemy that no longer exists. The fact is the Catholic Church in Scotland and Church of Scotland have never been closer, there was recently an accord of agreement and friendship signed. The various Bishops and Archbishops regularly work with the Moderator of the General Assembly and one even appeared before the General Assembly last year. A lot of that was unthinkable even 3 or 4 decades ago. The world has changed and some people would do well to move with it.

Anyway I'm risking consigning my own thread to the aptly named Holy Ground so I'll leave it there.


Excellent post PB.

I'd just add that it's basic human nature to want to belong to something. I wrote about this a wee bit on the PhD students thread, why folk support Hibs. We have an innate desire to belong and be part of something bigger than our own domestic lives. Sometimes that desire gets channeled down the wrong path. It's why we all support Hibs, why we like our wee matchday rituals etc.

The OO are just a boy's club that allows grown men to pretend they're still in their secret childhood gang-hut, with secret codes and an imaginary enemy that they can make fantastical plots against, dress up in silly costumes and shout a bit. It would be pretty hilarious if the consequences weren't so awful.

[Kato]

It's impossible to rationally explain or try to find a half way normal way to come to terms with their mindset as they are all zoomers with a nutty outlook on society. Parochial little idiots in a wee invented world of their own.

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[VoltaireHibs]

It's impossible to rationally explain or try to find a half way normal way to come to terms with their mindset as they are all zoomers with a nutty outlook on society. Parochial little idiots in a wee invented world of their own.

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And yet many of these 'nutters' hold powerful and influential positions in our society.

[sadtom]

My feelings are that the mason’s are pretty sad and pathetic. The OO however are utter **** and should be opposed and challenged at every opportunity.

I would love to witness a sea of the little anti Orangeman banners next time the Orcs are in town.
Would be more than happy to contribute or hand them out prior to the game.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Way back when I was a lad, my mates did thought he was a big cheese in the local masons. My mate and I plus our partners were invited to some sit down meal bash and who was I to turn down free food and cheap drink

The place was rammed and as I finished my meal I took my jacket off. The room fell silent. Get yer jaiket on my mate hissed, we huvnae toasted the queen. I put my jacket on and things went back to normal. In a bit we toasted the queen and jackets were off. So were the gloves.

The hard sell then started with tales of going upstairs and stuff. All cloak and dagger. All I had to do was believe in god and swear allegiance to the queen. I wasn’t brave enough to say I fell short on both counts and so couldn’t join


My wife also came under pressure from the ladies about the joys of the eastern star.

You don’t have to swear allegiance to the queen/king, that would go against the whole “no religion or politics should be discussed in the lodge” thing


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[Brizo]

I think for many now it's just a family tradition, albeit one I can't get my head around.

Historically the Order was largely a response to the United Irishmen and their 'dangerous' agenda of encouraging political unity between Catholics and Protestants and seeking to secure equal rights for all citizens in post plantation Ulster. The sectarian violence that had broken out sporadically post 1689/1690 had largely died down thanks to the influence of the UA but after the installation of a pro Catholic Viceroy in Ulster in the late 18th century the 'Peep O' Day' boys resumed a campaign of violence and the Catholic 'defenders' responded in kind. Of course the press of the day largely called the latter as a 'dangerous uprising', 'papist violence' and so on. The culmination was the so called Battle of the Diamond in 1795 and after this the Peep O' Day boys rebranded as the 'Orange Society'. Plenty current Orangemen will dispute their links to the Peep O' Day boys and it is somewhat tenuous. Whatever the history the early orange organisations were largely engaged in both political and violent combat with the United Irishmen throughout the 19th century. It was about maintaining Protestant superiority and it was sectarian. Of course there is context historically. You are talking about a time when the Jacobite risings in Scotland, the Battle of the Boyne and a Catholic Monarch were all still either in living memory or had only been passed down as stories a single generation. There was a genuine, and arguably legitimate, fear that a Catholic uprising was possible and the restoration of a Catholic monarchy was possible.

To some extent I can get why people want to commemorate 'their' victory and indeed continued existence (it's also well worth noting that the Catholic Church was hardly a model of tolerance in the years during and after the European reformation and there were plenty atrocities against various Protestant groups). However I celebrate my faith by going to Mass on a Sunday (and sometimes during the week if I'm feeling particularly pious:greengrin). Attendance at Mass holds up relatively well compared to previous decades, certainly in comparison to attendance in the CoS and largely helped by the arrival of our Polish neighbours in the early to mid 00s. Yet despite this terminal decline in attendance at the Kirk every summer we get this overt anger and antagonism from 'proud Protestants'. There is a paranoia to it which probably explains the 'people like me' quote above. There was a post on a Rangers forum recently that attributed Celtic's dominance in Scottish football in the last 15 years or so to the papal visit in 1982 because John Paul II encourage Catholics to stand up for their rights and faith and that meant mass (no pun intended) infiltration of government, the civil service, police, the SFA etc. How the **** do you reason with someone like that? There was also a video a couple of years back of someone attending an Orange march declaring 'I'm not religious, I'm an atheist'; when pressed as to why he was there he answered 'aye but I'm a Protestant atheist'. That is bizarre but also a discussed phenomena, the idea of people who aren't religious but identify as 'culturally Protestant'. I can't say I notice any real cultural difference between myself and my friends who are Protestant or indeed atheist but there you go. I suppose it's the same type of people who use social media to declare 'this is a Christian country' when what they really mean is 'I don't like Muslims'.

I think ultimately these people are defending themselves from nothing, it's an imagined war that they are fighting in their own heads. Largely fueled by stories of different times and different standards. In many ways I actually feel sorry for them, it must be a weird kind of emptiness to be so wrapped up in a hatred of an enemy that no longer exists. The fact is the Catholic Church in Scotland and Church of Scotland have never been closer, there was recently an accord of agreement and friendship signed. The various Bishops and Archbishops regularly work with the Moderator of the General Assembly and one even appeared before the General Assembly last year. A lot of that was unthinkable even 3 or 4 decades ago. The world has changed and some people would do well to move with it.

Anyway I'm risking consigning my own thread to the aptly named Holy Ground so I'll leave it there.

Great post PB.

I read a stat a while back that Kirk attendance was 50,000 every Sunday and mass attendance circa 100,000 and in a country of 5 and a half million people that just shows what a tiny proportion of society practices the country's two main traditional religions.

Catholic mass attendances might be double that of Kirk attendance but Im not convinced theyre holding up particularly well tbh and think they'd be a lot lower if it wasn't for the Poles whom you mention and the recent arrival of African immigrants many of whom are Catholics.

The OO are driven and motivated by tribal hatred which hides behind the label of "religion" to pursue a specific hatred of people of Irish Catholic origin and anyone they perceive to be of Irish Catholic origin because of the football club they support. Its bizarre behaviour in a 21st-century essentially secular Scotland and what is equally bizarre is that they're allowed to peddle that hate by a government and authorities who'd quite rightly take immediate action if they and the **** songbook were directed against any other religion or ethnic group.

[JimBHibees]

Great post PB.

I read a stat a while back that Kirk attendance was 50,000 every Sunday and mass attendance circa 100,000 and in a country of 5 and a half million people that just shows what a tiny proportion of society practices the country's two main traditional religions.

Catholic mass attendances might be double that of Kirk attendance but Im not convinced theyre holding up particularly well tbh and think they'd be a lot lower if it wasn't for the Poles whom you mention and the recent arrival of African immigrants many of whom are Catholics.

The OO are driven and motivated by tribal hatred which hides behind the label of "religion" to pursue a specific hatred of people of Irish Catholic origin and anyone they perceive to be of Irish Catholic origin because of the football club they support. Its bizarre behaviour in a 21st-century essentially secular Scotland and what is equally bizarre is that they're allowed to peddle that hate by a government and authorities who'd quite rightly take immediate action if they and the **** songbook were directed against any other religion or ethnic group.

Depressingly true. Genuinely don’t understand how it is tolerated

[Torto7]

Great post PB.

I read a stat a while back that Kirk attendance was 50,000 every Sunday and mass attendance circa 100,000 and in a country of 5 and a half million people that just shows what a tiny proportion of society practices the country's two main traditional religions.

Catholic mass attendances might be double that of Kirk attendance but Im not convinced theyre holding up particularly well tbh and think they'd be a lot lower if it wasn't for the Poles whom you mention and the recent arrival of African immigrants many of whom are Catholics.

The OO are driven and motivated by tribal hatred which hides behind the label of "religion" to pursue a specific hatred of people of Irish Catholic origin and anyone they perceive to be of Irish Catholic origin because of the football club they support. Its bizarre behaviour in a 21st-century essentially secular Scotland and what is equally bizarre is that they're allowed to peddle that hate by a government and authorities who'd quite rightly take immediate action if they and the **** songbook were directed against any other religion or ethnic group.

I think some of it pre dates Christianity. The Dal Riata, Brittonic and Pictish lines are still there but in a murky way.

[Skol]

You don’t have to swear allegiance to the queen/king, that would go against the whole “no religion or politics should be discussed in the lodge” thing


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That was the pitch from my mates dad and a few of the other guys trying to recruit me. I wasn’t interested and couldn’t meet either of those criteria anyway. Albeit I didn’t tell them that.

[MrSmith]

That was the pitch from my mates dad and a few of the other guys trying to recruit me. I wasn’t interested and couldn’t meet either of those criteria anyway. Albeit I didn’t tell them that.

It has maybe changed in the last couple of decades but I was told similar re allegiance to god, queen and country. Couldn't swear an allegiance to any of those three.

[mutley]

It has maybe changed in the last couple of decades but I was told similar re allegiance to god, queen and country. Couldn't swear an allegiance to any of those three.

Nope, that doesn’t happen


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[MrSmith]

Nope, that doesn’t happen


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Cool 😎

[VoltaireHibs]

I was invited to join by a now deceased ex policeman who ran a pub with none other than George Stewart. Gave me the wee leaflet etc, said to have a read and get back to him. I asked him if the supreme being I had to believe in could be me? He said no, so I declined the offer. Shame really, I love animals and was looking forward to petting the goat.

[Skol]

Nope, that doesn’t happen


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It did for me in two of those. C1991.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

It has maybe changed in the last couple of decades but I was told similar re allegiance to god, queen and country. Couldn't swear an allegiance to any of those three.

Definitely not the case now, I’m not a mason but I am a nosey ******* and I need to find out what they talk about before i die


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[VoltaireHibs]

Definitely not the case now, I’m not a mason but I am a nosey ******* and I need to find out what they talk about before i die


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I suspect it's all very mundane and tedious. I mean, what can they actually talk about?

[Carheenlea]

In Northern Ireland it's a bit more than just a nickname for Rangers and their fans. It's a genuinely sectarian slur on those of a unionist persuasion, and to a large degree that means its largely aimed at protestants.

You're right though, in Scotland it's rangers and that's all.

I take on board your knowledge of differing interpretation depending on geography.

From a Scottish perspective it was interesting to read this today.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/11902921/judge-rules-celtic-rangers-fans-****-not-sectarian/

[Bostonhibby]

I take on board your knowledge of differing interpretation depending on geography.

From a Scottish perspective it was interesting to read this today.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/11902921/judge-rules-celtic-rangers-fans-****-not-sectarian/Yahoo!

**** it is then.



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[Kato]

I take on board your knowledge of differing interpretation depending on geography.

From a Scottish perspective it was interesting to read this today.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/11902921/judge-rules-celtic-rangers-fans-****-not-sectarian/***.

Still is on here.

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[VoltaireHibs]

I take on board your knowledge of differing interpretation depending on geography.

From a Scottish perspective it was interesting to read this today.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/11902921/judge-rules-celtic-rangers-fans-****-not-sectarian/


Admin!!!!! :hyper

[Bostonhibby]

So if it looks like a ***, smells like a *** and spouts a load of sectarian filth like a ***, we can call it a big dirty ***?



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[VoltaireHibs]

So if it looks like a ***, smells like a *** and spouts a load of sectarian filth like a ***, we can call it a big dirty ***?



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I believe this to be correct. We are good to go. I repeat...admins!!!!

[Nakedmanoncrack]

I see H U N ruled to no longer be sectarian, commonsense.

[matty_f]

I take on board your knowledge of differing interpretation depending on geography.

From a Scottish perspective it was interesting to read this today.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/11902921/judge-rules-celtic-rangers-fans-****-not-sectarian/


It was a nonsense ruling in the first place, glad that sense has prevailed here. It's clearly and evidently not a sectarian term.

Totally agree with the admin's decision to sensor it after the previous ruling, that was the right thing to do.

[gbhibby]

It was a nonsense ruling in the first place, glad that sense has prevailed here. It's clearly and evidently not a sectarian term.

Totally agree with the admin's decision to sensor it after the previous ruling, that was the right thing to do.
Just when we were getting used to calling them Attilas as well.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

**** the ****

[Berwickhibby]

Nicked from Big G’s facebook


In a written judgement issued on Friday Scotland’s most senior judge Lord Carloway, who sat with colleagues Lord Matthews and Lord Boyd, upheld Ms Ogg’s submissions.

The judgement makes references to novelists Irvine Welsh and Christopher Brookmyre and their use of the word “hun”. It also makes reference to a book called the Patter which was published in 1985. Lord Carloway describes it as being a “a slim and often amusing volume which is intended as “a defining guide to the language of Glasgow”

In the judgement, Lord Carloway quashes the religious aggravation component of Mr Di Pinto’s breach of the peace conviction.

He wrote: “The appeal must be allowed in so far as the conviction relates to the uttering of a sectarian remark and the religious aggravation.”

In the judgement, Lord Carloway also advises how future prosecutions of people who make offensive religiously aggravated comments against Rangers fans be handled.

He wrote: “If a religious prejudice aggravation is to be libelled in respect of remarks which are thought to be directed, at least initially, at Rangers supporters, care will have to be given to how exactly such a libel can reflect the provisions of section 74 of the 2003 Act.

“Whatever perceptions may exist about Rangers and their supporters, neither can be described as a “religious group” or similar.

“They are respectively a football club and their fans. Their objective is not related to the promotion of religious faith or a way of life but winning leagues and cups.

“Rangers supporters exist throughout the world, but they can hardly be described a group. Even if they were, the fact that most Rangers fans may be Protestant, in the very broad sense of coming from that part of European society that emerged from the Reformation, does not make them a group with religious affiliations.

“Many of the fan base will be secular in outlook, albeit they may profess a tribal loyalty or an irrational antipathy towards the opposition supporters for 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon or a Wednesday night.

“A person who attends at Ibrox, however fanatical, will not think that he or she is attending a religious ceremony as distinct from a sporting event.”

The hearing at the Court of Criminal Appeal followed a hearing last year at the Sheriff Appeal Court. Sheriffs there rejected the arguments made by Mr Di Pinto’s lawyers.

In a written judgment, Sheriff Principal Aisha Anwar wrote: "The historic sectarian tensions within Glasgow and particularly between supporters of Rangers FC and Celtic FC are well understood in Scotland.

"The fact that the word '***' is used as a derogatory term to describe supporters of Rangers FC is, in our view, a matter of judicial knowledge.”

Ms Ogg told the Court of Criminal Appeal that the appeal sheriffs were mistaken to conclude that *** was a sectarian slur when used in relation to Rangers.

Mr Di Pinto’s legal team had previously argued that the use of the word "***" did not contain a religious aspect or indicate malice and ill-will towards a religious group.

They noted that a "***" was a member of a warlike nomadic people from Central Asia who invaded and ravaged Europe in the fourth and fifth centuries.

In the judgement issued on Friday, Lord Carloway and his colleagues concluded that there was ambiguity surrounding the use of the word *** and that Sheriff McGlennan was wrong to conclude that it was a religious slur.

He wrote about how this could be seen by consulting dictionaries.

He added : “The most obvious reference works are dictionaries. The Scottish National Dictionary gives, as the primary definition, ‘Abusive name for a person who supports, or a footballer who plays for Rangers’.

“Two prominent Scottish novelists are cited; Irvine Welsh referring to Hibs playing ‘the **** in the semi at Hampden’ and Christopher Brookmyre, from Glasgow, mentioning ‘policing the **** next visit’.

“It cannot be said that these comments, both in the football context, are referring not to Rangers or their fans but to Protestants generally.

“The secondary definition is certainly as an ‘Abusive term for a Protestant’, but the derivation of this is Michael Munro’s The Patter (1985); a slim and often amusing volume which is intended as ‘a defining guide to the language of Glasgow’.

Mr Munro’s description of “hun” is not in the context of abuse but: ‘A nickname for a Protestant. Also a vague non-sectarian insult much used in football chants like ‘The referee’s a hun’ or ‘Go home ya hun’”

[DIXIHIBS]

So can we say **** or cant we say ****??

[gbhibby]

So can we say **** or cant we say ****??

Only if you use quotation marks.

[Malthibby]

Depressingly true. Genuinely don’t understand how it is tolerated


A bit harsh, there are 150,000 of them.

[Bostonhibby]

Nicked from Big G’s facebook


In a written judgement issued on Friday Scotland’s most senior judge Lord Carloway, who sat with colleagues Lord Matthews and Lord Boyd, upheld Ms Ogg’s submissions.

The judgement makes references to novelists Irvine Welsh and Christopher Brookmyre and their use of the word “hun”. It also makes reference to a book called the Patter which was published in 1985. Lord Carloway describes it as being a “a slim and often amusing volume which is intended as “a defining guide to the language of Glasgow”

In the judgement, Lord Carloway quashes the religious aggravation component of Mr Di Pinto’s breach of the peace conviction.

He wrote: “The appeal must be allowed in so far as the conviction relates to the uttering of a sectarian remark and the religious aggravation.”

In the judgement, Lord Carloway also advises how future prosecutions of people who make offensive religiously aggravated comments against Rangers fans be handled.

He wrote: “If a religious prejudice aggravation is to be libelled in respect of remarks which are thought to be directed, at least initially, at Rangers supporters, care will have to be given to how exactly such a libel can reflect the provisions of section 74 of the 2003 Act.

“Whatever perceptions may exist about Rangers and their supporters, neither can be described as a “religious group” or similar.

“They are respectively a football club and their fans. Their objective is not related to the promotion of religious faith or a way of life but winning leagues and cups.

“Rangers supporters exist throughout the world, but they can hardly be described a group. Even if they were, the fact that most Rangers fans may be Protestant, in the very broad sense of coming from that part of European society that emerged from the Reformation, does not make them a group with religious affiliations.

“Many of the fan base will be secular in outlook, albeit they may profess a tribal loyalty or an irrational antipathy towards the opposition supporters for 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon or a Wednesday night.

“A person who attends at Ibrox, however fanatical, will not think that he or she is attending a religious ceremony as distinct from a sporting event.”

The hearing at the Court of Criminal Appeal followed a hearing last year at the Sheriff Appeal Court. Sheriffs there rejected the arguments made by Mr Di Pinto’s lawyers.

In a written judgment, Sheriff Principal Aisha Anwar wrote: "The historic sectarian tensions within Glasgow and particularly between supporters of Rangers FC and Celtic FC are well understood in Scotland.

"The fact that the word '***' is used as a derogatory term to describe supporters of Rangers FC is, in our view, a matter of judicial knowledge.”

Ms Ogg told the Court of Criminal Appeal that the appeal sheriffs were mistaken to conclude that *** was a sectarian slur when used in relation to Rangers.

Mr Di Pinto’s legal team had previously argued that the use of the word "***" did not contain a religious aspect or indicate malice and ill-will towards a religious group.

They noted that a "***" was a member of a warlike nomadic people from Central Asia who invaded and ravaged Europe in the fourth and fifth centuries.

In the judgement issued on Friday, Lord Carloway and his colleagues concluded that there was ambiguity surrounding the use of the word *** and that Sheriff McGlennan was wrong to conclude that it was a religious slur.

He wrote about how this could be seen by consulting dictionaries.

He added : “The most obvious reference works are dictionaries. The Scottish National Dictionary gives, as the primary definition, ‘Abusive name for a person who supports, or a footballer who plays for Rangers’.

“Two prominent Scottish novelists are cited; Irvine Welsh referring to Hibs playing ‘the **** in the semi at Hampden’ and Christopher Brookmyre, from Glasgow, mentioning ‘policing the **** next visit’.

“It cannot be said that these comments, both in the football context, are referring not to Rangers or their fans but to Protestants generally.

“The secondary definition is certainly as an ‘Abusive term for a Protestant’, but the derivation of this is Michael Munro’s The Patter (1985); a slim and often amusing volume which is intended as ‘a defining guide to the language of Glasgow’.

Mr Munro’s description of “hun” is not in the context of abuse but: ‘A nickname for a Protestant. Also a vague non-sectarian insult much used in football chants like ‘The referee’s a hun’ or ‘Go home ya hun’”That'll do for me, full credit to G, **** the ***.

And Sevco and the now defunct Glasgow rangers.

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[babahibs]

I once heard these weirdos being called " the mafia of the mediocre ".
That's always stuck with me,
Inadequates.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I suspect it's all very mundane and tedious. I mean, what can they actually talk about?

Most likely, but then why is it a secret?


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[Kato]

Inadequates.

Bang on. Someone asked above "what are they fighting" and it is their own inadequacy. I understand its drilled into some of them through family and with others it's peer pressure, but if you don't have the mental capacity to see through that institution and find their tenets abhorrent then their are some deep issues going on.

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[evy]

There was a poster on here for many years who was a Protestant Minister (and an excellent, much missed poster). I remember once suggesting that those who parade through the streets every June and July might be better served attending their local Kirk on a Sunday to celebrate their religious freedoms. His response was a beautifully cutting 'why should I have to deal with them?'

Incidentally I was at Mass this morning and we had a local Minister preaching the homily as part of a 'pulpit swap' aimed at growing ecumenical understanding and friendship. Our Priest is reciprocating next weekend. Funny old world.

There's every chance this was my da. Still reads, but doesn't post anymore. He'll have a right chuckle reading that.

[surreyhibbie]

There's every chance this was my da. Still reads, but doesn't post anymore. He'll have a right chuckle reading that.

I agree with PB - Doddie is very much missed, hope he is fit and well.

[Just Alf]

Rangers fans are .... *** *** *** *** *** **** .... I on the other hand am not......... ah as a proddy I'm quite satisfied getting that off ma chest

[Keith_M]

There's every chance this was my da. Still reads, but doesn't post anymore. He'll have a right chuckle reading that.


:aok:


If Doddie is your da, then you're a very lucky guy.

I always enjoyed his posts on here and the banter between him and other posters (including myself) was always a good laugh.

[greenlex]

:aok:


If Doddie is your da, then you're a very lucky guy.

I always enjoyed his posts on here and the banter between him and other posters (including myself) was always a good laugh.
I’ll second that. Caldercruix finest.

[VoltaireHibs]

Rangers fans are .... *** *** *** *** *** **** .... I on the other hand am not......... ah as a proddy I'm quite satisfied getting that off ma chest

I'm a Universal Deist. Glad to just...get it out there. 😁

[Bristolhibby]

H-u-n is now legit. Admins need to restore the sanity.

Got to question the original Sheriffs *** leanings.

J

[VoltaireHibs]

Most likely, but then why is it a secret?


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So they can feel important. The whole thing is basically small sausage syndrome. 😉

[Carheenlea]

There's every chance this was my da. Still reads, but doesn't post anymore. He'll have a right chuckle reading that.

Glad to hear he is still looking in.

Was always an interesting poster and when folk notice you’re not around any more you’ve obviously made a good contribution!

[gbhibby]

H-u-n is now legit. Admins need to restore the sanity.

Got to question the original Sheriffs *** leanings.

J
Follow Follow have it as one of the Judges being at Catholic primary and Catholic High School who have made the decision today. They are no happy and feel that they are being persecuted.

[gbhibby]

So can now call my wife "***" again without feeling any guilt.

[Kato]

Follow Follow have it as one of the Judges being at Catholic primary and Catholic High School who have made the decision today. They are no happy and feel that they are being persecuted.Fair enough. Persecuting people is their job.

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[DinkyTwo]

**** them. I do hate them. I also hate the KKK. Awaiting a statement from their digital marketing team as we speak

[gbhibby]

**** them. I do hate them. I also hate the KKK. Awaiting a statement from their digital marketing team as we speak
Have seen the Confederate flag being draped over the top tier of the South Stand when they visit, this flag is associated with white supremacists in the USA,wonder why they chose that flag🤔

[DinkyTwo]

Have seen the Confederate flag being draped over the top tier of the South Stand when they visit, this flag is associated with white supremacists in the USA,wonder why they chose that flag[emoji848]No idea. It's a strange choice. You'd like to think that hating catholics was some sort of weird learned generational behaviour from less tolerant times.

But slavery. FFS. I just can't comprehend it



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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Have seen the Confederate flag being draped over the top tier of the South Stand when they visit, this flag is associated with white supremacists in the USA,wonder why they chose that flag[emoji848]

There’s photographic evidence online of certain supporters groups (one of which happens to be not far from me, which is pretty boggin) displaying flags with nazi emblems on them at ibrox. They really are horrific.


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[gbhibby]

There’s photographic evidence online of certain supporters groups (one of which happens to be not far from me, which is pretty boggin) displaying flags with nazi emblems on them at ibrox. They really are horrific.


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Is that the one with the skull?

[CentreLine]

Follow Follow have it as one of the Judges being at Catholic primary and Catholic High School who have made the decision today. They are no happy and feel that they are being persecuted.

Thank goodness sanity has prevailed. Interesting that Follow Follow chose to ignore the perceived religious leanings of the majority of the judicial bench hearing the appeal.

[joe breezy]

No idea. It's a strange choice. You'd like to think that hating catholics was some sort of weird learned generational behaviour from less tolerant times.

But slavery. FFS. I just can't comprehend it



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They are extreme right wing racist bassas


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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Is that the one with the skull?

Yep


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