So the runners and riders are...

[degenerated]

That was very good, every candidate was given more than enough time to shine. I’m no SNP supporter and can’t agree with a lot of what they say but they all came across as thoroughly decent people standing for all the right reasons.
Forbes was again the most impressive for me but Yousaf can be pleased as well. You can’t help but like Regan but it’s all going to be about where the second preference of her supporters goes.Was actually very good. Stephen Jardine did an excellent job there.

Forbes is far more polished than the others. Politically I'm probably closer to Yousaf though I suspect Forbes is more capable of taking people with her than he is.

The ferries guy was fair pleased with himself :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Oh the banter! 🙄

Funnier than your usual snidey comments :na na:

[Ozyhibby]

Was actually very good. Stephen Jardine did an excellent job there.

Forbes is far more polished than the others. Politically I'm probably closer to Yousaf though I suspect Forbes is more capable of taking people with her than he is.

The ferries guy was fair pleased with himself :greengrin

I’ve still to watch, will do it tonight. Will likely vote tomorrow.
I think Forbes is the most capable and while I agree more with Humza on the social issues I really don’t care that much about those issues so long as the gains made so far are not under threat. And I don’t think they are.
All about economy and competence for me just now.


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[Santa Cruz]

Was actually very good. Stephen Jardine did an excellent job there.

Forbes is far more polished than the others. Politically I'm probably closer to Yousaf though I suspect Forbes is more capable of taking people with her than he is.

The ferries guy was fair pleased with himself :greengrin

:greengrin:greengrin He must be so relieved that Humza's going to finally sort that. The curriculm for excrement bloke got the longest slot on education.

[marinello59]

:greengrin:greengrin He must be so relieved that Humza's going to finally sort that. The curriculm for excrement bloke got the longest slot on education.

It seemed like there was general acceptance round the room that he was a bit of an ****. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Decent hour and Jardine was effective enough as a host.

Forbes easily looked the most accomplished. I thought Yousaf verbally stumbled a few times though and still hasn't managed to find a simple and straight response to being asked about Isla Brydon. He also faced the ignominy of the audience starting to laugh at one of his answers. Still, at least he didn't suggest nurses shouldn't go off sick and let their coleagues down, like the plonker in the pink jumper.

[WhileTheChief..]

I want more radicalism; land reform, much greater and more equitable tax reform, council tax reform. It doesn't stop there :wink:


I'm hearing land reform being mention these days but haven't a clue what it means or what needs changed?

I'd like to see a government focus their tax policy more on wealth than on income. Keep lifting the tarting rate of tax and NI.

No idea how to do council tax in a fairer way.

But I'm not opposed a radical shake up of the tax system as a whole. Focus on growing the pie first though.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm hearing land reform being mention these days but haven't a clue what it means or what needs changed?

I'd like to see a government focus their tax policy more on wealth than on income. Keep lifting the tarting rate of tax and NI.

No idea how to do council tax in a fairer way.

But I'm not opposed a radical shake up of the tax system as a whole. Focus on growing the pie first though.

Not just first, always. The bigger the economy, the easier it will be to make it more equal.


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[Ozyhibby]

Decent hour and Jardine was effective enough as a host.

Forbes easily looked the most accomplished. I thought Yousaf verbally stumbled a few times though and still hasn't managed to find a simple and straight response to being asked about Isla Brydon. He also faced the ignominy of the audience starting to laugh at one of his answers. Still, at least he didn't suggest nurses shouldn't go off sick and let their coleagues down, like the plonker in the pink jumper.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/56c4a0e3e805c805d07e8b281d8aadf1.jpg


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[Santa Cruz]

Christine Grahame speaking her mind.

https://twitter.com/ITVBorderRB?

[He's here!]

70% over 50 is older than even I thought. I think that probably helps Forbes but I couldn’t be sure.


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I guess the fact she's such a strong social conservative when it comes to her religious convictions might align her with some older voters but does that apply to SNP members who you'd guess would see themselves as more 'progressive'. In fact, how many older folk in general still disapprove of gay marriage etc?

[Ozyhibby]

I guess the fact she's such a strong social conservative when it comes to her religious convictions might align her with some older voters but does that apply to SNP members who you'd guess would see themselves as more 'progressive'. In fact, how many older folk in general still disapprove of gay marriage etc?

I’ve honestly no clue. The membership of the snp is pretty unknown. It’s not so much whether they disapprove of it or not, it’s whether it’s a priority for them. I’m over 50 and very much in favour of it but I also can see that it’s not under threat and it’s low on my list of priorities. The ability of those who prioritise social issues to make a lot of noise may not transfer into delivering a lot of votes. Especially in an older electorate. Corbyn could get the whole of Glastonbury singing his name but got absolutely battered by Johnson in 2019.


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[Berwickhibby]

Christine Grahame speaking her mind.

https://twitter.com/ITVBorderRB?

Looking like a wee rift 🍿🍿🍿🍿

[Ozyhibby]

Looking like a wee rift [emoji897][emoji897][emoji897][emoji897]

Or just a leadership campaign.[emoji849]


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[marinello59]

Or just a leadership campaign.[emoji849]


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I think it’s a bit more than that, it’s hard to believe these three are in the same party at times.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it’s a bit more than that, it’s hard to believe these three are in the same party at times.

People complain when there is no choice and now complaining when given a choice. They are all left of centre and that’s all they need to be. They just think there are different ways to skin the cat.


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[marinello59]

People complain when there is no choice and now complaining when given a choice. They are all left of centre and that’s all they need to be. They just think there are different ways to skin the cat.


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I don’t have a choice and I’m certainly not complaining about anything. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I think it’s a bit more than that, it’s hard to believe these three are in the same party at times.

There's truth in that but I doubt it's actually greater than between say, Liz Kendall and Jeremy Corbyn. The Tories have purged most of the "vaguely human" end of their party, but even they used to have some amount of sense balancing the nutty right. British politics tends to be made of broad coalitions. The common goal of Indy does probably tend to make the SNP broader than most but it's overwhelmingly of the centre and to the left.

[JeMeSouviens]

I haven't said much on this thread, mostly because I've been recovering from an accident and off the computer, phone etc and anyway, I'm not a member so don't have a vote. But as an Indy and usual SNP voter, I'm finding it hard to make my mind up. I mostly lean Forbes just due to competence but the wee free thing gives me the heebie jeebies a bit. I wish she'd be a lot clearer on separating personal belief from how she intends to take government forward.

[Santa Cruz]

I haven't said much on this thread, mostly because I've been recovering from an accident and off the computer, phone etc and anyway, I'm not a member so don't have a vote. But as an Indy and usual SNP voter, I'm finding it hard to make my mind up. I mostly lean Forbes just due to competence but the wee free thing gives me the heebie jeebies a bit. I wish she'd be a lot clearer on separating personal belief from how she intends to take government forward.

Aww, hope your ok. I'm in same position, waiting on a scan to see if any other damage done.

I don't know if KF has already said, but could she not alleviate these kinds of worries by just announcing she would allow free votes on all future conscience/social issues legislation?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm hearing land reform being mention these days but haven't a clue what it means or what needs changed?

I'd like to see a government focus their tax policy more on wealth than on income. Keep lifting the tarting rate of tax and NI.

No idea how to do council tax in a fairer way.

But I'm not opposed a radical shake up of the tax system as a whole. Focus on growing the pie first though.

Land reform is about changing the way land is owned and, more importantly imo, used. Due to historical reasons, vast swathes of Scotland are private estates kept effectively as desolate wastelands. They are deliberately kept like that to be private sporting playgrounds for very rich people. Sometimes we don't even know who, as ownership is wrapped up in mysterious multi-layered offshore companies.

A useful primer - https://www.quaker.org.uk/blog/land-reform-in-scotland

If you're interested in delving into the history I'd highly recommend Andy Wightman (former MSP kicked out of the greens over trans-wars :rolleyes:)'s work - "Who Owns Scotland?" and "The Poor had no Lawyers".

[J-C]

I think it’s a bit more than that, it’s hard to believe these three are in the same party at times.

Did you watch the Tory leadership campaign, just as brutal against each other. They're there to win a leadership contest, if they all agreed on everything then what would be the point.

[JeMeSouviens]

Aww, hope your ok. I'm in same position, waiting on a scan to see if any other damage done.

I don't know if KF has already said, but could she not alleviate these kinds of worries by just announcing she would allow free votes on all future conscience/social issues legislation?

Thanks SC, I'm getting there. Hope your scan results are ok.

[Santa Cruz]

Thanks SC, I'm getting there. Hope your scan results are ok.

Good glad to hear that. I'm no longer in pain thankfully, marked as urgent, just shows how many must be even more urgent.

What about my second point re: KF?

[JeMeSouviens]

Good glad to hear that. I'm no longer in pain thankfully, marked as urgent, just shows how many must be even more urgent.

What about my second point re: KF?

Hmm, yeah, was thinking about it. Free votes is tricky because you can't control what any of the other parties will do in terms of whipping plus there's not much point in a govt bringing forward legislation if they don't believe in it enough to even command their own party's support. I guess that in practice the issue will fade anyway as the last thing KF will be looking for is a further stooshie within the SNP group. I doubt the SNP/Green agreement will survive going forward without further movement on trans rights etc but that may actually be a good thing for 2 reasons.

A govt showing leadership is a good thing but running too far ahead of public opinion before you've persuaded it can be dangerous. Also, I think minority govt is probably a good thing at Holyrood. Makes the govt build consensus.

However, having said that, I am still a bit uncomfortable with a FM that may just tolerate gay people, unmarried parents etc, rather than be totally comfortable with them. I guess that's the reassurance bit I think KF hasn't done (maybe can't do?)

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrRLpHZXsAAllmj?format=jpg&name=medium

[Paul1642]

Land reform is about changing the way land is owned and, more importantly imo, used. Due to historical reasons, vast swathes of Scotland are private estates kept effectively as desolate wastelands. They are deliberately kept like that to be private sporting playgrounds for very rich people. Sometimes we don't even know who, as ownership is wrapped up in mysterious multi-layered offshore companies.

A useful primer - https://www.quaker.org.uk/blog/land-reform-in-scotland

If you're interested in delving into the history I'd highly recommend Andy Wightman (former MSP kicked out of the greens over trans-wars :rolleyes:)'s work - "Who Owns Scotland?" and "The Poor had no Lawyers".

A big issue that doesn’t get much attention. Also worth noting that these estates which seem natural and unspoiled are actually far from their natural state. Acres upon acres of heather cover moorland which gets burned back annually so that the land is good for pheasant shooting (a sport for the 1% if ever there was one) is terrible for the environment.

Get the land into national ownership and if it can’t be used for good public use get forests planted! Why individuals should own so much land because their ancestors pleased the right lord is beyond me.

[Kato]

A big issue that doesn’t get much attention. Also worth noting that these estates which seem natural and unspoiled are actually far from their natural state. Acres upon acres of heather cover moorland which gets burned back annually so that the land is good for pheasant shooting (a sport for the 1% if ever there was one) is terrible for the environment.

Get the Land into national ownership and if it can’t be used for good public use get forests planted! Why individuals should own so much land because their ancestors pleased the right lord is beyond me.I'm on board with that.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Forbes sends letter for member numbers too and Regan says she will take it further. Absolutely bizarre they won't release the numbers

ConnorGillies
·
29m
💥UPDATE: Ash Regan’s team threaten to raise the stakes if SNP HQ fails to provide clarity by tomorrow.

“If we do not receive a satisfactory response addressing our legitimate request…by 3pm 16/03, Ash Regan will hold a press conference outside Parl to address matter further.” twitter.com/connorgillies/…

[Stairway 2 7]

Snp saying they will say the number after the election mental decision or they don't know the number yet. Humzas team say they think it should be open so obviously the hierarchy have agreed to it, assume they will come out tomorrow

@ConnorGillies
NEW: SNP headquarters issue statement refusing to issue the number of members voting in the leadership contest.

It comes after all three contenders demanded transparency on the matter.

Party chiefs hint they’ll issue figures AFTER race to replace Sturgeon is over.
@SkyNew

[Mibbes Aye]

Forbes sends letter for member numbers too and Regan says she will take it further. Absolutely bizarre they won't release the numbers

ConnorGillies
·
29m
💥UPDATE: Ash Regan’s team threaten to raise the stakes if SNP HQ fails to provide clarity by tomorrow.

“If we do not receive a satisfactory response addressing our legitimate request…by 3pm 16/03, Ash Regan will hold a press conference outside Parl to address matter further.” twitter.com/connorgillies/…

Is there no independent oversight of the election process?

I know Labour use the Electoral Reform Society, think it was spun-off to Civica, for the leadership, deputy leadership and the NEC.

Given the outcome is essentially crowning the new First Minister then there is surely some external governance to ensure everything is above board?

[Ozyhibby]

Is there no independent oversight of the election process?

I know Labour use the Electoral Reform Society, think it was spun-off to Civica, for the leadership, deputy leadership and the NEC.

Given the outcome is essentially crowning the new First Minister then there is surely some external governance to ensure everything is above board?

They are using a company in Southampton to do the voting. Don’t know much beyond that.


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[Mibbes Aye]

They are using a company in Southampton to do the voting. Don’t know much beyond that.


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Is it Mi-Voice? Please say it is :pray:

On their website they state that one of the benefits of them meeting your' electoral needs is:




Real-time reporting allows you to determine the level of engagement in your event and to take action if required



Transparent and above-board. Just two of the words that don't spring to mind :greengrin

[Mr Grieves]

Is there no independent oversight of the election process?

I know Labour use the Electoral Reform Society, think it was spun-off to Civica, for the leadership, deputy leadership and the NEC.

Given the outcome is essentially crowning the new First Minister then there is surely some external governance to ensure everything is above board?

As an SNP member I'm all for transparency and there shouldn't be any issues in releasing the membership numbers. Out of curiosity, was that info released for the Scottish labour leadership election? Did anyone care?

[Mibbes Aye]

As an SNP member I'm all for transparency and there shouldn't be any issues in releasing the membership numbers. Out of curiosity, was that info released for the Scottish labour leadership election? Did anyone care?

I wasn't asking for the numbers, Regan and Forbes are asking for their campaign teams to have them. In Labour's case that would have been Sarwar and Lennon's teams. I'm not Anas Sarwar, nor am I Monica Lennon, nor was I on either of their campaign teams so I'm not sure how I would know if such a request was made, sorry. What is peculiar is that Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP voluntarily give their membership numbers to the Electoral Commission each year. Has the SNP stopped doing so?

What I did ask was that if there was an independent oversight body like the Electoral Reform Society or related, involved. That doesn't appear to be obvious here, in the way that it has been with other parties.

[Stairway 2 7]

As an SNP member I'm all for transparency and there shouldn't be any issues in releasing the membership numbers. Out of curiosity, was that info released for the Scottish labour leadership election? Did anyone care?

Yes it was and for the Tory Westminster leaders election. If two of the three candidates in they elections had to ask in the media for days for they figures it would be big too.

[He's here!]

Snp saying they will say the number after the election mental decision or they don't know the number yet. Humzas team say they think it should be open so obviously the hierarchy have agreed to it, assume they will come out tomorrow

@ConnorGillies
NEW: SNP headquarters issue statement refusing to issue the number of members voting in the leadership contest.

It comes after all three contenders demanded transparency on the matter.

Party chiefs hint they’ll issue figures AFTER race to replace Sturgeon is over.
@SkyNew

What's 'sleekit' Murrell got to hide?

[Mr Grieves]

Yes it was and for the Tory Westminster leaders election. If two of the three candidates in they elections had to ask in the media for days for they figures it would be big too.

Have you got a source for that, genuinely interested in their membership numbers?

[Stairway 2 7]

What's 'sleekit' Murrell got to hide?

It's very bizarre. They either don't want people to know the number for some reason or they don't have a accurate number to give. Given that party funds are so linked to fees I'm sure they would.

As soon as I seen humza join in today days later that the rest I was confident the ok would be given and apparently SNP HQ having a meeting tomorrow about releasing

[Stairway 2 7]

Have you got a source for that, genuinely interested in their membership numbers?

I'm not checking but they are definitely available online and much smaller than SNP

[Stairway 2 7]

Fat jambo talks

Ian Murray MP
@IanMurrayMP
·
When I ran for deputy leader of
@UKLabour
we got the entire national membership lists with postal addresses and phone numbers so we could speak with members. The party then emailed the members once a week for the entire campaign on our behalf.
This SNP secrecy is appalling

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10372263/snp-leadership-vote-watchdog-kate-forbes-secrecy-row/?utm_campaign=native_share&utm_source=sharebar_native&utm_medium=sharebar_native

Things getting interesting.


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[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1636120356523057161?s=20

"For a party that so frequently deploys cry of ‘democracy denial’ this isn’t a good look".

Bunch of chancers.

[Glory Lurker]

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1636120356523057161?s=20

"For a party that so frequently deploys cry of ‘democracy denial’ this isn’t a good look".

Bunch of chancers.

Lazy to not differentiate between the party and the party management. I suppose that wouldn't make a zingy tweet though.

[marinello59]

All you can do really is laugh. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/bingodemagogue/status/1636108996900683777?s=61&t=LyH8vKFG_JdSvjSL37vUMg

[Berwickhibby]

All you can do really is laugh. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/bingodemagogue/status/1636108996900683777?s=61&t=LyH8vKFG_JdSvjSL37vUMg

Watching with interest…. 🍿🍿🍿

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230315/ef1a471fc853a863b0e640bb8b182179.jpg


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[Berwickhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230315/ef1a471fc853a863b0e640bb8b182179.jpg


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Translates to …. I don’t trust SNP HQ at Murell Towers 🤣🤣🤣

[He's here!]

All you can do really is laugh. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/bingodemagogue/status/1636108996900683777?s=61&t=LyH8vKFG_JdSvjSL37vUMg

Many a true word said in jest?

[He's here!]

Lazy to not differentiate between the party and the party management. I suppose that wouldn't make a zingy tweet though.

Does she need to differentiate? I think she means exactly what she says. It's not a good look for the party.

[Mr Grieves]

Fat jambo talks

Ian Murray MP
@IanMurrayMP
·
When I ran for deputy leader of
@UKLabour
we got the entire national membership lists with postal addresses and phone numbers so we could speak with members. The party then emailed the members once a week for the entire campaign on our behalf.
This SNP secrecy is appalling

I'm an SNP member, I've had maybe 2 emails about the leadership election, one of which was the the details for voting. TBH I don't want weekly emails or phone calls from the SNP equivalent of ****ing Ian Murray :greengrin:

I've not had any endorsements for any of the candidates,I'm not part of some secret gravy train group, as far as I know, and I still don't know who I'm voting for.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm an SNP member, I've had maybe 2 emails about the leadership election, one of which was the the details for voting. TBH I don't want weekly emails or phone calls from the SNP equivalent of ****ing Ian Murray :greengrin:

I've not had any endorsements for any of the candidates,I'm not part of some secret gravy train group, as far as I know, and I still don't know who I'm voting for.

I think at the beginning of the campaign there was a problem when the Humza campaign were given all the email addresses of members in south Scotland. Someone got a wrap on the knuckles for that. At the hustings there were pro Humza leaflets on my seat when I went in.
Forbes smart asking for an audit and asking the other two if they agree. They can’t say no and it will likely happen.
It helps protect the image of the party.

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[Skol]

Protect the image of the party. You serious about that ?

[Mr Grieves]

I wasn't asking for the numbers, Regan and Forbes are asking for their campaign teams to have them. In Labour's case that would have been Sarwar and Lennon's teams. I'm not Anas Sarwar, nor am I Monica Lennon, nor was I on either of their campaign teams so I'm not sure how I would know if such a request was made, sorry. What is peculiar is that Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP voluntarily give their membership numbers to the Electoral Commission each year. Has the SNP stopped doing so?

What I did ask was that if there was an independent oversight body like the Electoral Reform Society or related, involved. That doesn't appear to be obvious here, in the way that it has been with other parties.

The NEC, volunteers elected by party members, oversee the process.

[Mr Grieves]

I'm not checking but they are definitely available online and much smaller than SNP

I've not found this. From what I've read Scottish Labour released no more than the percentages that voted for each candidate

[Stairway 2 7]

I've not found this. From what I've read Scottish Labour released no more than the percentages that voted for each candidate

They report them to the electoral roll each year. Uk part has 420k. Scot Labour was up to 25,836 under Corbyn but has dropped to 16,470 in December. Tiny compared to the snp.

I don't know about before the last election but there will have been a recent figure. Plus the mps are saying they had it released to them for campaigning

[Mr Grieves]

They report them to the electoral roll each year. Uk part has 420k. Scot Labour was up to 25,836 under Corbyn but has dropped to 16,470 in December. Tiny compared to the snp.

I don't know about before the last election but there will have been a recent figure. Plus the mps are saying they had it released to them for campaigning

The SNP release their membership numbers to the electoral commission too so I'm confused at what point you were trying to make about the labour/Tory leadership elections being more transparent than the SNP's

[Glory Lurker]

Does she need to differentiate? I think she means exactly what she says. It's not a good look for the party.

Nah. It is if that's what you want to make of it. All the candidates want transparency. It's a fair assumption to make that most of the members do (I do, fwiw), so it's only the management who are looking daft.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nah. It is if that's what you want to make of it. All the candidates want transparency. It's a fair assumption to make that most of the members do (I do, fwiw), so it's only the management who are looking daft.

Humza a week ago was saying Joanna Cherry was full of conspiracy theories when she wanted transparency and independent observer's. When the other two calls for it he eventually does the same days later. Emma Harper msp managed to get the names and email addresses of all members in the South easily, she then illegally emailed them all asking them to vote Humza.

[He's here!]

Humza a week ago was saying Joanna Cherry was full of conspiracy theories when she wanted transparency and independent observer's. When the other two calls for it he eventually does the same days later. Emma Harper msp managed to get the names and email addresses of all members in the South easily, she then illegally emailed them all asking them to vote Humza.

'Trumpian nonsense' according to Murrell loyalists.

[Stairway 2 7]

Pretty much slating two of the people going for the FM. Must be confident their boy has one. This attitude that any criticism of the how the party is aiding enemies is toxic. Hopefully the winner smokes out some of these career politicians who's only interest is self preservation

Michael Russell
@Feorlean
·
As @theSNP President I have told the National Secretary I support publishing membership figures. I also have full confidence in her & the external verification & count. I am disgusted by the abuse directed at @theSNP staff by individuals who damage our cause & aid our enemies

[He's here!]

Pretty much slating two of the people going for the FM. Must be confident their boy has one. This attitude that any criticism of the how the party is aiding enemies is toxic. Hopefully the winner smokes out some of these career politicians who's only interest is self preservation

Michael Russell
@Feorlean
·
As @theSNP President I have told the National Secretary I support publishing membership figures. I also have full confidence in her & the external verification & count. I am disgusted by the abuse directed at @theSNP staff by individuals who damage our cause & aid our enemies

https://twitter.com/GavNewlandsSNP/status/1636114528474636296?s=20

"Quite frankly, this is just #fakenews (https://twitter.com/hashtag/fakenews?src=hashtag_click) crap. I thought better of Kate's camp".

The acceleration of in-fighting and the collapse of the 'iron-clad' party unity post-Sturgeon is remarkable.

[marinello59]

https://twitter.com/GavNewlandsSNP/status/1636114528474636296?s=20

"Quite frankly, this is just #fakenews (https://twitter.com/hashtag/fakenews?src=hashtag_click) crap. I thought better of Kate's camp".

The acceleration of in-fighting and the collapse of the 'iron-clad' party unity post-Sturgeon is remarkable.

Years of secrecy and party discipline falling apart in weeks. It looks like finally being able to speak their mind has proved to be intoxicating for some.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/GavNewlandsSNP/status/1636114528474636296?s=20

"Quite frankly, this is just #fakenews (https://twitter.com/hashtag/fakenews?src=hashtag_click) crap. I thought better of Kate's camp".

The acceleration of in-fighting and the collapse of the 'iron-clad' party unity post-Sturgeon is remarkable.

Forbes statement acknowledges that and asks for transparency in order to put these stories to bed.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Apparently candidates were refused permission to send out their manifestos also.

Glenn Campbell
@GlennBBC
So, it turns out the SNP’s ruling body will not actually meet today

Instead, it seems it’s members are being asked to respond, by email, to a proposal from the national secretary on the release of membership numbers

It is far from clear if this process will deal with calls for an independent auditor to supervise the ballot

[Ozyhibby]

Apparently candidates were refused permission to send out their manifestos also.

Glenn Campbell
@GlennBBC
So, it turns out the SNP’s ruling body will not actually meet today

Instead, it seems it’s members are being asked to respond, by email, to a proposal from the national secretary on the release of membership numbers

It is far from clear if this process will deal with calls for an independent auditor to supervise the ballot

No email yet.[emoji2369]


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[Mr Grieves]

No email yet.[emoji2369]


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It's the NEC that have to vote because a change in internal election rules are required.

[Mibbes Aye]

The NEC, volunteers elected by party members, oversee the process.

So there isn’t oversight, independent of the SNP?

[Mibbes Aye]

The NEC, volunteers elected by party members, oversee the process.

Ignore my previous post, you’ve just answered it. This internal committee make the rules then ‘Independently’ oversee them, is that it?

[Santa Cruz]

Apologies if already posted. Good article from The National - first time I've ever said that :greengrin

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23386740.kevin-mckenna-competence-index-snp-leadership-contenders/#comments-anchor

[Ozyhibby]

72k is the number.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Huge drop this year. Think the ones that left would more likely be closer to Regan and Forbes

Kieran Andrews
@KieranPAndrews
NEW: The SNP has 72,186 members, the party's ruling national executive committee has been told

That's down from almost 104,000 in 2021, the last year that numbers were previously available for

The party's ruling NEC has been told that there were 82,598 members as of December 31 2022, which means there has been a drop of 10,000 members in less than three months

[Stairway 2 7]

Kate Forbes comments

"Plummeting membership figures shows continuity won’t cut it"

[SteveHFC]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

[Berwickhibby]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

Humza is not fit to be an MSP, never mind FM

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

Ouch!

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

Humza’s team work on their campaign music (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_aaqbaVvE)

[He's here!]

Huge drop this year. Think the ones that left would more likely be closer to Regan and Forbes

Kieran Andrews
@KieranPAndrews
NEW: The SNP has 72,186 members, the party's ruling national executive committee has been told

That's down from almost 104,000 in 2021, the last year that numbers were previously available for

The party's ruling NEC has been told that there were 82,598 members as of December 31 2022, which means there has been a drop of 10,000 members in less than three months

Interesting that so many have left (rather than joined) in the light of the 'democracy denying' Supreme Court decision and s35.

Regan pointing out how many have left during the GRR furore which I guess she wants to big up seeing she quit the govt over it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting that so many have left (rather than joined) in the light of the 'democracy denying' Supreme Court decision and s35.

Regan pointing out how many have left during the GRR furore which I guess she wants to big up seeing she quit the govt over it.

She better hope it's not just that, cos GRR furorers are the people she needs to vote for her.

[degenerated]

Huge drop this year. Think the ones that left would more likely be closer to Regan and Forbes

Kieran Andrews
@KieranPAndrews
NEW: The SNP has 72,186 members, the party's ruling national executive committee has been told

That's down from almost 104,000 in 2021, the last year that numbers were previously available for

The party's ruling NEC has been told that there were 82,598 members as of December 31 2022, which means there has been a drop of 10,000 members in less than three monthsThat's a big drop in numbers, i had expected a drop off a few years after the referendum as so many joined in a sort of act of defiance. The fact they held those numbers for so long was surprising and impressive but something clearly wrong that so many have left in such a short space of time though. And that's a heck of a job to turn that around.

Its nuts that by % of the electorate that even with that drop the membership numbers are still bigger than the three unionist parties combined.

[Santa Cruz]

That's a big drop in numbers, i had expected a drop off a few years after the referendum as so many joined in a sort of act of defiance. The fact they held those numbers for so long was surprising and impressive but something clearly wrong that so many have left in such a short space of time though. And that's a heck of a job to turn that around.

Its nuts that by % of the electorate that even with that drop the membership numbers are still bigger than the three unionist parties combined.

Labour voters who work and are members of a union affiliated to Labour might not feel the need to become members of the Party. The opt-in payment they contribute towards Labour funds through their union subs could be their way of showing support. The only way to show support for the SNP is by becoming a Party member.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230316/0213e9a0f4fa9fbd413950d52e075402.jpg


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[marinello59]

Kate Forbes comments

"Plummeting membership figures shows continuity won’t cut it"

Right or not that’s a real topic for debate amongst the leadership contenders. Keeping them secret could be seen as stifling debate.

[Ozyhibby]

Right or not that’s a real topic for debate amongst the leadership contenders. Keeping them secret could be seen as stifling debate.

Humza has to hope that all the leavers are over the GRA because if not then as the continuity candidate he has to explain why he thinks this is ok.
I think a lot of votes will already be in though so keeping the figures under wraps until now is a benefit for him.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Ash Regan wanted 3 points clarified yesterday 1 how many snp members 2 how many digital votes sent out 3 number of physical votes sent out

The party has said 72,000 members. The papers on Sunday were saying they had found out 78,000 votes were being cast, sky news repeating that now. Point 2 and 3 seemed a weird questions at the time from Regan.

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually forgot about the snp saying it was lies they had lost 30,000 members not long ago.

@CraigoRobertson
A month ago the Sunday Mail published a story by
@johncferguson
saying SNP membership had dropped by up to 30,000 but we were accused by the party's press office of making it up. Turns out it was 100% accurate after all

They even planted this story in The National to discredit our reporting. #TartanBollocks

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23318753.snp-reject-report-30-000-quit-party-nicola-sturgeon-gender-reforms/

SNP reject report 30,000 have quit party over Nicola Sturgeon gender reforms

[xyz23jc]

Interesting that so many have left (rather than joined) in the light of the 'democracy denying' Supreme Court decision and s35.

Regan pointing out how many have left during the GRR furore which I guess she wants to big up seeing she quit the govt over it.


Good to see you are following SNP's Liz Tr...sorry, next FM's pronouncements! Hope fer ye yet, No? No! Oricht, I'll get me jaiket! :wink::thumbsup:

[marinello59]

Good to see you are following SNP's Liz Tr...sorry, next FM's pronouncements! Hope fer ye yet, No? No! Oricht, I'll get me jaiket! :wink::thumbsup:

One of the three brightest and best put forward by the SNP. Depressing isn’t it?

[Rumble de Thump]

One of the three brightest and best put forward by the SNP. Depressing isn’t it?

The candidates chose to stand for election.

[Moulin Yarns]

To put the member number into covid context


72,186 members in @theSNP
1 in every 59 adults in Scotland is a member of the SNP.

[Since90+2]

To put the member number into covid context


72,186 members in @theSNP
1 in every 59 adults in Scotland is a member of the SNP.

So 1 in 59 of the adult population decides the next FM?

[Ozyhibby]

So 1 in 59 of the adult population decides the next FM?

I’ve never felt so powerful.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

So 1 in 59 of the adult population decides the next FM?

It's been said before, the SNP members elect the leader of the party.

The MSPs elect the first minister. So even less have that privilege. 😉

[Since90+2]

I’ve never felt so powerful.[emoji23]


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Doesn't really address the democratic point.

[Stairway 2 7]

Doesn't really address the democratic point.

It's actually embarrassing thar many in the snp went on about lack of democracy when Truss and Sunak took the gig with no GE. If they had no hypocrisy they would call a Scottish election in the next few months, they won't

[LewysGot2]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

There’s really no words…

[marinello59]

The candidates chose to stand for election.

Fair point.
One of these three will be put forward by the SNP as First Minister. Is that better?:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

To put the member number into covid context


72,186 members in @theSNP
1 in every 59 adults in Scotland is a member of the SNP.

Wonder what it was 3 years ago. Where will it end up. Lost over 10,000 in around 6 weeks, probably be less now

@BBCJamesCook
·
How the decline in SNP membership has played out...

Year end 2019 — 125,691
Year end 2020 — 105,393
Year end 2021 — 103,884
Year end 2022 — 82,598
15 February 2023 — 72,186

[Since90+2]

It's actually embarrassing thar many in the snp went on about lack of democracy when Truss and Sunak took the gig with no GE. If they had no hypocrisy they would call a Scottish election in the next few months, they won't

Yip.

I've not seen an argument otherwise. And I don't expect we will.

[Ozyhibby]

Yip.

I've not seen an argument otherwise. And I don't expect we will.

Not an argument I’m making but there is a slight difference in the way the PM and FM is elected. Can’t remember the details though.
Personally I think they should go back to the electorate though.


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[marinello59]

Not an argument I’m making but there is a slight difference in the way the PM and FM is elected. Can’t remember the details though.
Personally I think they should go back to the electorate though.


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I don’t, we don’t need any more disruption. Let the new leader settle in and try and make a better job of governing Scotland.

[ehf]

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1636385968570908679?s=20

NEW SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf just jokingly asked a group of Ukrainian women in Edinburgh “where are all the men?” There was polite and awkward laughter before they explained that many of their partners had stayed in Ukraine to fight in the war.

World class statesmanship at its finest; he will be a credit to us on the international stage.

[Mibbes Aye]

World class statesmanship at its finest; he will be a credit to us on the international stage.

He definitely deserves to be on a stage :agree:

[heretoday]

Humza has been responsible for the worsening dental health situation and also the mental health assessment delays in Scotland. If he becomes leader at least there might be a chance of someone else having a shot at improving these and other things.

[Hiber-nation]

Speaking to 3 party members over the past week, all (reluctantly) putting KF as their only selection. It's basically keep Humza out.

[Ozyhibby]

Speaking to 3 party members over the past week, all (reluctantly) putting KF as their only selection. It's basically keep Humza out.

While I’m not quite keep Humza out, I do hope Forbes wins. It’s a long shot though, especially with so many leaving the party. I think that helps Humza although he now has to explain more why continuity is a good thing.
I still have no real sense of which way this will go.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Humza has been responsible for the worsening dental health situation and also the mental health assessment delays in Scotland. If he becomes leader at least there might be a chance of someone else having a shot at improving these and other things.

It is a sad day when the best reason for making someone FM is to remove them from direct control of health.

It is true though. The talent pool is very thin in this regard. Michael Matheson was relatively well thought of by a lot of people in the sector. I don’t know enough about Maree Todd but she is a community pharmacist by trade which means she has some direct experience of one of the key roles in that area where social care, primary care and acute care meet.

[Paul1642]

While I’m not quite keep Humza out, I do hope Forbes wins. It’s a long shot though, especially with so many leaving the party. I think that helps Humza although he now has to explain more why continuity is a good thing.
I still have no real sense of which way this will go.


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I also have no idea but hoping for Forbes.

Sky bet still have Yousaf at 1/3 which is normally a good indication of how things will go, however I really have no idea why they are so confident in that outcome.

[Ozyhibby]

I also have no idea but hoping for Forbes.

Sky bet still have Yousaf at 1/3 which is normally a good indication of how things will go, however I really have no idea why they are so confident in that outcome.

Betting markets only really tell you what people think might happen. Booking don’t really set odds these days as much as let the algorithm do it based on what people are betting on. After week 1 Forbes looked dead in the water but weathered the storm. A lot of money would have got placed on Humza at that time. People placing bets though are not members mostly though.
Really difficult to tell still I think.


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[archie]

Betting markets only really tell you what people think might happen. Booking don’t really set odds these days as much as let the algorithm do it based on what people are betting on. After week 1 Forbes looked dead in the water but weathered the storm. A lot of money would have got placed on Humza at that time. People placing bets though are not members mostly though.
Really difficult to tell still I think.


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Didn't Salmond have form for placing bets to manipulate odds to suggest momentum?

[Stairway 2 7]

I know quite a few people whether it be talking to or social media that say they are done with the snp, a few members too. Some are saying they will go alba some no party but will reluctantly vote snp.

I'd say all are either due to Forbes view on GRA or Regans on concentrating on independence. I think due to who will have left that Humza a shoe in.

He'll be one of the most unpopular leaders to have taken office in years and popularity of leaders only goes one way. He'll be out soon enough, but it delays independence further unfortunately

[WhileTheChief..]

Wonder what it was 3 years ago. Where will it end up. Lost over 10,000 in around 6 weeks, probably be less now

@BBCJamesCook
·
How the decline in SNP membership has played out...

Year end 2019 — 125,691
Year end 2020 — 105,393
Year end 2021 — 103,884
Year end 2022 — 82,598
15 February 2023 — 72,186

How does that work? Don't you sign up for a year?

Are people really thinking, 'nah, i'm done with the SNP' and emailing them to say they want to quit the party or cancel their membership?

Or, is it just people not renewing their membership?

Either way, I'd imagine you'll see the numbers rise in the lead up to the next election.

[makaveli1875]

Humza is the least popular candidate , absolute certainty to win

[WhileTheChief..]

I also have no idea but hoping for Forbes.

Sky bet still have Yousaf at 1/3 which is normally a good indication of how things will go, however I really have no idea why they are so confident in that outcome.

I generally can't stand the SNP but Forbes has been a breath of fresh air from what I've seen of her.

Hope she wins, and dare I say it, moves away from the progressive agenda and takes us more to the centre than previously.

Don't know how anyone can trust Yousaf with anything, he's an empty vessel with zero substance.

Regan is kinda fun to watch.

[Ozyhibby]

I generally can't stand the SNP but Forbes has been a breath of fresh air from what I've seen of her.

Hope she wins, and dare I say it, moves away from the progressive agenda and takes us more to the centre than previously.

Don't know how anyone can trust Yousaf with anything, he's an empty vessel with zero substance.

Regan is kinda fun to watch.

Regan not capable to be honest. Yousaf not great but to be honest, what’s he up against? Sarwar and Ross? He should do fine.
Forbes would be a welcome change of focus. And lots more competent.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Regan not capable to be honest. Yousaf not great but to be honest, what’s he up against? Sarwar and Ross? He should do fine.
Forbes would be a welcome change of focus. And lots more competent.


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He's not just up against they two though he's the main player in the independence campaign, why I personally vote them.

[Hibs4185]

The consensus on here is KF. My friends are voting KF.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist but if Humza wins there dill def be questions asked

[weecounty hibby]

The consensus on here is KF. My friends are voting KF.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist but if Humza wins there dill def be questions asked
In my branch we have aprox 130 members. We had a branch meeting and HY was the preferred candidate for the majority.

[neil7908]

I haven't changed my mind - they are all chasing NS's shadow.

Not an SNP member but have voted for them in the past. Can't see myself doing that again, whoever wins.

I still don't understand the appeal of Forbes. I suspect its just she's a 'not Humza' candidate but I keep hearing about competence. But when I searched for her achievements in office, I struggled to find anything. I still have significant concerns about the direction she will take the party. Progressive issues matter to me, as does climate change, and it's pretty clear these are not areas she will have much interest in. She's been praised for her honesty around religion, but I found her trashing her own governments record as mediocre profoundly dishonest a stance to take.

I suspect she will win, and I'm not suggesting a huge lurch to the right but she will clearly move the party focus, and from what I've heard that will be away from my core principles as a voter.

[Ozyhibby]

I haven't changed my mind - they are all chasing NS's shadow.

Not an SNP member but have voted for them in the past. Can't see myself doing that again, whoever wins.

I still don't understand the appeal of Forbes. I suspect its just she's a 'not Humza' candidate but I keep hearing about competence. But when I searched for her achievements in office, I struggled to find anything. I still have significant concerns about the direction she will take the party. Progressive issues matter to me, as does climate change, and it's pretty clear these are not areas she will have much interest in. She's been praised for her honesty around religion, but I found her trashing her own governments record as mediocre profoundly dishonest a stance to take.

I suspect she will win, and I'm not suggesting a huge lurch to the right but she will clearly move the party focus, and from what I've heard that will be away from my core principles as a voter.

I disagree with her on all those social issues. I couldn’t disagree with her more to be honest but I also believe she has no intention of legislating on those issues either. And I care less about those issues than others.
I don’t see where you get that she is less green?
What I do see from her is someone that is diligent and across the detail when she speaks. When asked questions on the campaign trail she has answered them clearly. And she handled the finance job very well indeed. I haven’t seen anyone else in the party that is more capable than her. And that is what I value more in a leader. They must be capable. Whatever else their faults, Starmer and Sunak are both capable. Ross and Sarwar not so much. I think it’s very important to have that quality. I think she would be be with the former pair. Yousaf the later pair.


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[marinello59]

Regan’s team discussing trying to have the process paused. I don't think for a second they will go ahead with this but we can’t say the SNP are skimping on the drama. :greengrin

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23395483.ash-regan-team-discuss-court-action-pause-snp-leadership-contest/?ref=appshr

[Berwickhibby]

This leadership contest has proved that the SNP are just as bad as all the other Party’s…with secrets, manipulation and a real lack of transparency. A real eye opener for the public

[archie]

This leadership contest has proved that the SNP are just as bad as all the other Party’s…with secrets, manipulation and a real lack of transparency. A real eye opener for the public

I think activists in all parties, the ones that put in the voluntary hours out of a personal commitment, must be aghast when they see how the paid officials and elected members behave.

[Stairway 2 7]

Regan’s team discussing trying to have the process paused. I don't think for a second they will go ahead with this but we can’t say the SNP are skimping on the drama. :greengrin

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23395483.ash-regan-team-discuss-court-action-pause-snp-leadership-contest/?ref=appshr

Doubt it will work but there is definitely grounds for it. Yousaf ran as the continuity vote. They held back member figures well after the candidates were asking for them, they figures would show continuity would be towards crumbling membership.

One candidate says liz Lloyd the FMs chief of staff was employed by the government but was working on Yousaf campaign.

Emma harper msp was given the names and emails of the members in the South of Scotland. She emailed them and told them to vote for Yousaf.

Yousaf repeatedly said he wanted to keep Murrell after votes have been cast it looks like he will be forced to quit.

Yousaf and most of the snp painted the other two as conspiracy nuts, turns out they were correct which changes things.

Two papers and sky news are still sticking with 8000 more votes were sent out than members. Regan says she wanted member numbers and how many votes sent, she says she only has the first answer

[Ozyhibby]

Doubt it will work but there is definitely grounds for it. Yousaf ran as the continuity vote. They held back member figures well after the candidates were asking for them, they figures would show continuity would be towards crumbling membership.

One candidate says liz Lloyd the FMs chief of staff was employed by the government but was working on Yousaf campaign.

Emma harper msp was given the names and emails of the members in the South of Scotland. She emailed them and told them to vote for Yousaf.

Yousaf repeatedly said he wanted to keep Murrell after votes have been cast it looks like he will be forced to quit.

Yousaf and most of the snp painted the other two as conspiracy nuts, turns out they were correct which changes things.

Two papers and sky news are still sticking with 8000 more votes were sent out than members. Regan says she wanted member numbers and how many votes sent, she says she only has the first answer

There is also the fact that Yousaf knew well in advance that Sturgeon was resigning so had time to prepare his campaign and seems to have well and truly outspent his £5k.
Pro Yousaf leaflets on seats when you arrive at hustings.

There are def questions to be asked. Fair play to Regan for asking them.


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[He's here!]

This leadership contest has proved that the SNP are just as bad as all the other Party’s…with secrets, manipulation and a real lack of transparency. A real eye opener for the public

The revisionism by some now that the blinkers are off and the SNP's hypocrisy laid bare is amusing. Any criticism of the Sturgeon used to be batted away with a 'nothing to see here' breeziness. Now it's all about how a new broom was actually overdue...anything to keep the dream alive.

[He's here!]

Regan’s team discussing trying to have the process paused. I don't think for a second they will go ahead with this but we can’t say the SNP are skimping on the drama. :greengrin

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23395483.ash-regan-team-discuss-court-action-pause-snp-leadership-contest/?ref=appshr

She's the only one of the candidates who can claim any sort of moral high ground, having at least resigned from the government. Yousaf, I guess, is at least clear that he remains wedded to the established order, warts and all, but I find Forbes's attempts to distance herself from a government she's a key part of pretty lame.

[Stairway 2 7]

There is also the fact that Yousaf knew well in advance that Sturgeon was resigning so had time to prepare his campaign and seems to have well and truly outspent his £5k.
Pro Yousaf leaflets on seats when you arrive at hustings.

There are def questions to be asked. Fair play to Regan for asking them.


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Whoever wins is on a hiding to nothing. Get someone in they have reconstruction, GRA, bottle scheme, strikes inflation still high.

Then change them in a year when most of that should be in the past to a certain extent. It needed done. Oh and get some people in Scottish seats ie Flynn

[Stairway 2 7]

She's the only one of the candidates who can claim any sort of moral high ground, having at least resigned from the government. Yousaf, I guess, is at least clear that he remains wedded to the established order, warts and all, but I find Forbes's attempts to distance herself from a government she's a key part of pretty lame.

She asked for the figures with Regan that started this. It's wild to group her with the party when the two sides have been attacking each other. She said at the first hustings she wanted change.

Pity she has midieval views as she would have been a shoe in

[Ozyhibby]

Whoever wins is on a hiding to nothing. Get someone in they have reconstruction, GRA, bottle scheme, strikes inflation still high.

Then change them in a year when most of that should be in the past to a certain extent. It needed done. Oh and get some people in Scottish seats ie Flynn

Or they come in and sort those issues and reap the reward.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Or they come in and sort those issues and reap the reward.


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Perhaps wishful thinking. The next year is going to be a car crash for Yousaf certainly and perhaps Forbes too unless she can put the moral issues into the long grass

[Stairway 2 7]

Alex Massie was yesterday saying the election was now a farce. Today he is mocking Regan for wanting it paused, he's an erse

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps wishful thinking. The next year is going to be a car crash for Yousaf certainly and perhaps Forbes too unless she can put the moral issues into the long grass

I think they are in long grass anyway.


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[marinello59]

Things moving at pace now.

https://news.sky.com/story/announce-resignation-plan-or-face-vote-of-no-confidence-snps-chief-executive-told-12836856

[Berwickhibby]

Or this https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1636852247530287107 🤣🤣🤣🤣🍿🍿🍿🍿

[marinello59]

Murrell gone with immediate effect.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrgCZdgXoAQoDEP?format=jpg&name=large

[marinello59]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrgCZdgXoAQoDEP?format=jpg&name=large

No intent to mislead. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/9714139ae32b4b6b95ed0e5908ed4eb9.jpg


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/9714139ae32b4b6b95ed0e5908ed4eb9.jpg


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Out of the six core principles she listed the only one they are abiding by just now is “Hard work”.

As in “It’s awfy hard work keeping up with all the muck, in-fighting and taking the piss that’s going on” 😀

[Ozyhibby]

Out of the six core principles she listed the only one they are abiding by just now is “Hard work”.

As in “It’s awfy hard work keeping up with all the muck, in-fighting and taking the piss that’s going on” [emoji3]

That’s why she is the change candidate I suppose.


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[Ozyhibby]

At this rate, Yousaf might find it harder to unite the party again than Forbes. There has clearly been underhand behaviour.


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[Mibbes Aye]

That’s why she is the change candidate I suppose.


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She seems to have gotten away with that identity so far. Can she maintain it given she has ministerial experience under her belt?

The problem for Yousaf is he would struggle to call her out on it as it implies there is something it’s desirable to distance oneself from. And he has fronted the opposite so far.

[Ozyhibby]

She seems to have gotten away with that identity so far. Can she maintain it given she has ministerial experience under her belt?

The problem for Yousaf is he would struggle to call her out on it as it implies there is something it’s desirable to distance oneself from. And he has fronted the opposite so far.

The all have ministerial experience though. Very hard to run from back benches in any party.
She has no failure on her record though and said she wanted a change of direction from day one.


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[He's here!]

That’s why she is the change candidate I suppose.


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Her gushing tribute to Murrell won't enhance that perception.

[Stairway 2 7]

Her gushing tribute to Murrell won't enhance that perception.

Where did you see that about. I've just seen the statement above where she says they need to restore and transparency. Genuine question I've not seen her comments on him

[neil7908]

I disagree with her on all those social issues. I couldn’t disagree with her more to be honest but I also believe she has no intention of legislating on those issues either. And I care less about those issues than others.
I don’t see where you get that she is less green?
What I do see from her is someone that is diligent and across the detail when she speaks. When asked questions on the campaign trail she has answered them clearly. And she handled the finance job very well indeed. I haven’t seen anyone else in the party that is more capable than her. And that is what I value more in a leader. They must be capable. Whatever else their faults, Starmer and Sunak are both capable. Ross and Sarwar not so much. I think it’s very important to have that quality. I think she would be be with the former pair. Yousaf the later pair.


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In terms of my worries around environmental issues:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23346814.kate-forbes-curb-strategy-accelerate-oil-gas-decline/

This is part of my problem with her. She got a lot of coverage on her religious views but I actually think there is a lot of stuff like the above that has flown under the radar. Again, she's not going to bring back coal but imo we absolutely have to push on with removing fossil fuels - there can be no delay.

And again, there is a talk of competence but what are her actual achievements? My feeling is she's just kept her head down and only served a couple of years in SG. I just don't see the successes or evidence to back up the 'competent' claim. I think she's largely an unknown and that is working for her. But as FM? I worry.

[One Day Soon]

I think that Apocalypse Now though current events appear to be they should probably be worrying far more about the latest and next stage of the police enquiry into the money…

[Stairway 2 7]

In terms of my worries around environmental issues:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23346814.kate-forbes-curb-strategy-accelerate-oil-gas-decline/

This is part of my problem with her. She got a lot of coverage on her religious views but I actually think there is a lot of stuff like the above that has flown under the radar. Again, she's not going to bring back coal but imo we absolutely have to push on with removing fossil fuels - there can be no delay.

And again, there is a talk of competence but what are her actual achievements? My feeling is she's just kept her head down and only served a couple of years in SG. I just don't see the successes or evidence to back up the 'competent' claim. I think she's largely an unknown and that is working for her. But as FM? I worry.

And what import electricity gas and oil from other nations and let them have the carbon footprint. Some days renewables make up bellow 5% of our use. If the electricity isn't generated from our oil and gas we'll import. We need a greater push to heat our homes with electricity and ban petrol cars as soon as. Obviously that costs cash but needs must. It will be decades before the majority heat their homes with electricity.

A lot of problems would have been sorted if we pushed nuclear 20 years ago. All those people that campaigned about nuclear power 30 years ago should be proud of the millions of tonnes of carbon that's been pumped into the atmosphere instead

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/663092678f278be5a99fac02b511ddbc.jpg
In the interest of fairness here is the letter from the new candidate for change. Not sure why this needed to be open as he had everyone’s email address.[emoji6]


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[Sergio sledge]

In terms of my worries around environmental issues:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23346814.kate-forbes-curb-strategy-accelerate-oil-gas-decline/

This is part of my problem with her. She got a lot of coverage on her religious views but I actually think there is a lot of stuff like the above that has flown under the radar. Again, she's not going to bring back coal but imo we absolutely have to push on with removing fossil fuels - there can be no delay.

And again, there is a talk of competence but what are her actual achievements? My feeling is she's just kept her head down and only served a couple of years in SG. I just don't see the successes or evidence to back up the 'competent' claim. I think she's largely an unknown and that is working for her. But as FM? I worry.

I think she's a realist when it comes to fossil fuels, we undoubtedly need to move towards removing fossil fuels from use if we can, but if we push too fast then it'll cause significant problems, both in terms of the national grid not being able to cope with demand (which invariably hours the most vulnerable hardest) but also significant economic issues, particularly in the North East.

It absolutely has to happen, but the transition to net zero has to be done at a realistic pace ensuring the grid resilience is in place and our economy diversifies away from oil and gas.

She is more environmentally inclined than you give her credit for though, this was one of her higher profile early campaigns as an msp: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/1634985/kate-forbes-msp-celebrating-success-of-final-straw-campaign-one-year-on/

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/aeec2b9a478db05a0531e147de09f44f.jpg

Becoming clear that Yousaf was supposed just fall into place.


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[marinello59]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/aeec2b9a478db05a0531e147de09f44f.jpg

Becoming clear that Yousaf was supposed just fall into place.


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Good grief. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/aeec2b9a478db05a0531e147de09f44f.jpg

Becoming clear that Yousaf was supposed just fall into place.


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I think she means “cast aspersions” but her original wording is better, because you imagine she was so pure deid beeling that she didn’t have time for accurate subject-verb agreement.

Still, early signs that the increasing conflict within the SNP could lead to a Tory dividend. All that trash talking of Starmer that the Nats have been up to suddenly makes sense :greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

I think she means “cast aspersions” but her original wording is better, because you imagine she was so pure deid beeling that she didn’t have time for accurate subject-verb agreement.

Still, early signs that the increasing conflict within the SNP could lead to a Tory dividend. All that trash talking of Starmer that the Nats have been up to suddenly makes sense :greengrin

I'd be surprised if she votes at all. I mind reading an article about her gift for reading tarot cards, said she had zero interest in politics.

[One Day Soon]

I think she means “cast aspersions” but her original wording is better, because you imagine she was so pure deid beeling that she didn’t have time for accurate subject-verb agreement.

Still, early signs that the increasing conflict within the SNP could lead to a Tory dividend. All that trash talking of Starmer that the Nats have been up to suddenly makes sense :greengrin


What's really needed here is that daft picture of Sturgeon with the 'Ye ragin aye?' caption beneath it. 'Ragin' is about become the full time hobby of a lot of previously smug people.

[Mibbes Aye]

I note that when Sturgeon moves on, Bute House will be closed for 20 weeks to allow for repairs. She will be lucky to get her deposit back there!

On a more serious note, her successor won’t get the keys until the end of summer or into autumn. That’s assuming the work is done in time. Hopefully the refurbishment firms weren’t nationalised by the SG, otherwise getting into Bute House might take as long as getting over to Bute the island :greengrin

It also means that Shadow Cabinet meetings will move to St Andrew’s House for the duration. I really like SAH as a piece of architecture - beautifully Art Deco through large parts of the inside, reassuringly monolithic on the outside. Hopefully whatever the new Cabinet looks like, it can rise to the level of its surroundings

[He's here!]

What's really needed here is that daft picture of Sturgeon with the 'Ye ragin aye?' caption beneath it. 'Ragin' is about become the full time hobby of a lot of previously smug people.

Putting uber-Sturgeon loyal stooge Mike Russell in temporary charge isn't going to placate the 'stop the steal' faction.

[WhileTheChief..]

Watching Kate Forbes' interview on Sky just now.

It's pre-recorded as she doesn't do interviews on Sundays for religion reasons.

When asked if Murrell should resign, she said no, there was no need.

Is this an example of her religion being an issue?

[Ozyhibby]

Watching Kate Forbes' interview on Sky just now.

It's pre-recorded as she doesn't do interviews on Sundays for religion reasons.

When asked if Murrell should resign, she said no, there was no need.

Is this an example of her religion being an issue?

I watched it as well and didn’t see that?


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[Ozyhibby]

Whoever wins this race is going to be more powerful within the party than they would have thought at the beginning of the campaign. The top of the party and it’s structures will need to be rebuilt. And that’s on top of the job of being FM.


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[He's here!]

Where did you see that about. I've just seen the statement above where she says they need to restore and transparency. Genuine question I've not seen her comments on him

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrhWfpMX0AE2dzS?format=png&name=small
As I said, Regan the only one to go off-script.

[He's here!]

Watching Kate Forbes' interview on Sky just now.

It's pre-recorded as she doesn't do interviews on Sundays for religion reasons.

When asked if Murrell should resign, she said no, there was no need.

Is this an example of her religion being an issue?

I have no quibbles with anyone's religion precluding them from working on the Sabbath (two high profile sporting examples were Eric Liddell and Scotland rugby international Euan Murray). Personally I'd love a return to weekend football only being on Saturdays. However, when you've thrown your hat in the ring to become Scotland's First Minister it's got to be an issue when there's a developing story/crisis that doesn't pause on Sundays.

[neil7908]

I have no quibbles with anyone's religion precluding them from working on the Sabbath (two high profile sporting examples were Eric Liddell and Scotland rugby international Euan Murray). Personally I'd love a return to weekend football only being on Saturdays. However, when you've thrown your hat in the ring to become Scotland's First Minister it's got to be an issue when there's a developing story/crisis that doesn't pause on Sundays.

Is it the case that she genuinely won't work on a Sunday? As you say that is surely an issue to being FM.

[Andy Bee]

Is it the case that she genuinely won't work on a Sunday? As you say that is surely an issue to being FM.

She's attended hustings on a Sunday IIRC so she's made the conscious decision that they were important enough over her religion. Did the Sky interview state that she wouldn't take interviews on a Sunday due to her religion? I'm thinking if she's away all week at the moment with a young baby then any free time (no pun intended) would be pretty valuable for both parents and it's nothing to do with her religion.

[Ozyhibby]

I have no quibbles with anyone's religion precluding them from working on the Sabbath (two high profile sporting examples were Eric Liddell and Scotland rugby international Euan Murray). Personally I'd love a return to weekend football only being on Saturdays. However, when you've thrown your hat in the ring to become Scotland's First Minister it's got to be an issue when there's a developing story/crisis that doesn't pause on Sundays.

I think essential workers can work on Sunday, even in the wee frees.


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[Stairway 2 7]

She's been on the Sunday breakfast show on BBC before I thought that was live

[Ozyhibby]

She's been on the Sunday breakfast show on BBC before I thought that was live

Recorded late last night.


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[Stairway 2 7]

She's definitely from another era, wee frees are something else. Hopefully this doesn't empower them I was wishing they would be left in the handmaid's tale

[marinello59]

Whoever wins this race is going to be more powerful within the party than they would have thought at the beginning of the campaign. The top of the party and it’s structures will need to be rebuilt. And that’s on top of the job of being FM.


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Forbes power will be diluted by having Mhairi Black and others against her from day one. Yousaf will struggle without the Murrells pulling his strings and covering his back. The damage caused by the leadership election means Indy is further away now than it has been for a long time and that is going to make holding the various factions of the party together even harder. I have no doubt that the SNP will continue to win elections but they going to get a few more bloody noses now.

[WhileTheChief..]

She's attended hustings on a Sunday IIRC so she's made the conscious decision that they were important enough over her religion. Did the Sky interview state that she wouldn't take interviews on a Sunday due to her religion? I'm thinking if she's away all week at the moment with a young baby then any free time (no pun intended) would be pretty valuable for both parents and it's nothing to do with her religion.

It was no big deal, Sophie Ridge, when introducing the segment, simply said it was a pre-recorded interview as Forbes didn't do interviews on Sunday's due to her religion. Forbes wasn't there to be asked about it (!) and Ridge didn't make any comment or offer an opinion on it.

It then cut to the interview.

I only mention it, as I think if the interview had been live this morning, her answer may have been entirely different.

So the point being, is that indirectly, her religion has had an effect. A tiny one, but it could be something that actually matters in future.

[marinello59]

Watching Kate Forbes' interview on Sky just now.

It's pre-recorded as she doesn't do interviews on Sundays for religion reasons.

When asked if Murrell should resign, she said no, there was no need.

Is this an example of her religion being an issue?

It’s an example of events overtaking her pre recorded interview.:greengrin
Her religion won’t stop her stepping in whenever required. Not an issue as far as I can see.

[WhileTheChief..]

It’s an example of events overtaking her pre recorded interview.:greengrin
Her religion won’t stop her stepping in whenever required. Not an issue as far as I can see.

Yeah I'm not meaning that it's an issue in that she wouldn't work on Sundays when needs be.

I'm meaning from her point of view.

As you say, events overtook her, but wouldn't have if not for her religion stopping her doing the interview today!

I think that makes sense :greengrin


https://youtu.be/U4D9OHdZAag

[Stairway 2 7]

A shift in tone wonder if she is more confident now, can't call it a sham if you think you might win

andrewlearmonth
·
Kate Forbes tells Sky's Sophy Ridge she has faith in the integrity of the ballot. Says that she is "confident that whoever is elected will be the person who SNP members have chosen

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes power will be diluted by having Mhairi Black and others against her from day one. Yousaf will struggle without the Murrells pulling his strings and covering his back. The damage caused by the leadership election means Indy is further away now than it has been for a long time and that is going to make holding the various factions of the party together even harder. I have no doubt that the SNP will continue to win elections but they going to get a few more bloody noses now.

Or the party could be rejuvenated under a new leader.


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[Ozyhibby]

It was no big deal, Sophie Ridge, when introducing the segment, simply said it was a pre-recorded interview as Forbes didn't do interviews on Sunday's due to her religion. Forbes wasn't there to be asked about it (!) and Ridge didn't make any comment or offer an opinion on it.

It then cut to the interview.

I only mention it, as I think if the interview had been live this morning, her answer may have been entirely different.

So the point being, is that indirectly, her religion has had an effect. A tiny one, but it could be something that actually matters in future.

Her interview with the BBC this morning was recorded last night.


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[Berwickhibby]

Or the party could be rejuvenated under a new leader.


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:faf::faf::faf::faf: the SNP is fractured and sides are being taken. I cannot see the party rallying around any of the three stooges.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65001543

Party president and interim chief exec Mike Russell 'didn't know' about plummeting membership numbers...yep, that seems entirely credible. Straight out the Sturgeon/Murrell playbook of 'forgotten' meetings and emergency loans.

[Ozyhibby]

:faf::faf::faf::faf: the SNP is fractured and sides are being taken. I cannot see the party rallying around any of the three stooges.

Of course not, this is the end of the party and independence.[emoji23][emoji23]


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[Berwickhibby]

Of course not, this is the end of the party and independence.[emoji23][emoji23]


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I do hope you are right :greengrin let’s see what is next from this ongoing soap opera 🍿🍿🍿

[J-C]

I do hope you are right :greengrin let’s see what is next from this ongoing soap opera 🍿🍿🍿


So it's back to tugging our fore locks and kept in our place like the little servants they want us to be. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

I do hope you are right :greengrin let’s see what is next from this ongoing soap opera [emoji897][emoji897][emoji897]

I bet the Labour Party website must be close to crashing with the rush of all those yes voters heading to Labour to join up.[emoji23]


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[He's here!]

Of course not, this is the end of the party and independence.[emoji23][emoji23]


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Depends how many folk remain sold on independence in spite of rather than because of the SNP. There will be many people aghast that leadership of the party they've put their faith in for nearly a decade has collapsed after being exposed as a bunch of lying control freaks. Fair to speculate that some will not be so readily sold on a dream that could have put such people in charge of an independent Scotland.

A 'moving along swiftly' approach won't really cut it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Depends how many folk remain sold on independence in spite of rather than because of the SNP. There will be many people aghast that leadership of the party they've put their faith in for nearly a decade has collapsed after being exposed as a bunch of lying control freaks. Fair to speculate that some will not be so readily sold on a dream that could have put such people in charge of an independent Scotland.

A 'moving along swiftly' approach won't really cut it.

It's hardly a big deal in comparison to Westminster who will send sex slaves to Rwanda and and keep child immigrants in prison until they are 18 and then also send them to Rwanda

[Mibbes Aye]

So it's back to tugging our fore locks and kept in our place like the little servants they want us to be. :rolleyes:

I’ve never tugged my forelock in my life and the only thing that’s ever held me back is myself on occasion.

But unlike a lot of Nats I don’t obsess with blaming the English for any maladjusted sense of wellbeing, nor do I reach for a saltire as a comfort blanket if things don’t go my way.

People who have genuinely been oppressed in life must look at the self-pity and internal anger projection of some Nats and think WTF?

[Mibbes Aye]

I bet the Labour Party website must be close to crashing with the rush of all those yes voters heading to Labour to join up.[emoji23]


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I tried phoning the Labour Party IT helpline but they were too busy rolling about the floor to log my call 😂

[He's here!]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/aeec2b9a478db05a0531e147de09f44f.jpg

Becoming clear that Yousaf was supposed just fall into place.


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Is this some random with the same surname or is it actually a relative?

[Since90+2]

Is this some random with the same surname or is it actually a relative?

Sister.

[Berwickhibby]

Is this some random with the same surname or is it actually a relative?

It’s her sister and apparently she has the gift to see into the future….wonder if she saw all this coming :greengrin

[He's here!]

It's hardly a big deal in comparison to Westminster who will send sex slaves to Rwanda and and keep child immigrants in prison until they are 18 and then also send them to Rwanda

The point is that for as long as Sturgeon et al portrayed themselves as progressives, maintaining the moral high ground etc, their devotees were prepared to turn a blind eye to a litany of policy failures - from education and drugs deaths to the ferries fiasco - because they had believed these were the people best placed to lead then to the promised land. The cracks became especially apparent in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling and widened alarmingly with the GRR shambles - with membership numbers dwindling alarmingly. Now that the party management have been shown to be treating the membership - and the wider electorate - like idiots the fabric of what held the faithful together has been torn apart. Trust and respect are hard, sometimes impossible, to regain.

[Hibrandenburg]

The point is that for as long as Sturgeon et al portrayed themselves as progressives, maintaining the moral high ground etc, their devotees were prepared to turn a blind eye to a litany of policy failures - from education and drugs deaths to the ferries fiasco - because they had believed these were the people best placed to lead then to the promised land. The cracks became especially apparent in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling and widened alarmingly with the GRR shambles - with membership numbers dwindling alarmingly. Now that the party management have been shown to be treating the membership - and the wider electorate - like idiots the fabric of what held the faithful together has been torn apart. Trust and respect are hard, sometimes impossible, to regain.

It always makes me chuckle when people criticise Scotland for failing in areas like health, wasting money and education but then voice support for a system that is performing even worse. It's difficult to take them seriously.

[Santa Cruz]

It always makes me chuckle when people criticise Scotland for failing in areas like health, wasting money and education but then voice support for a system that is performing even worse. It's difficult to take them seriously.

HH isn't criticising Scotland, he's criticising the SG. What system performs worse with drugs deaths that he mentions in his post?

[Mibbes Aye]

It always makes me chuckle when people criticise Scotland for failing in areas like health, wasting money and education but then voice support for a system that is performing even worse. It's difficult to take them seriously.

I’ve never criticised Scotland for failing. But the SG, that’s a different matter. Got 16 years worth of material there if you like? :greengrin

(And yes, it’s not all been awful. And that’s not because it is statistically impossible to be that bad all that time. It’s just the good stuff in the key areas is so difficult to find. And the rhetoric is so, so empty)

[Skol]

It always makes me chuckle when people criticise Scotland for failing in areas like health, wasting money and education but then voice support for a system that is performing even worse. It's difficult to take them seriously.

I rarely see anyone who points out the issues and also supports the uk government. This is a misconception that the Indy side need to realise they make.

[Paul1642]

It always makes me chuckle when people criticise Scotland for failing in areas like health, wasting money and education but then voice support for a system that is performing even worse. It's difficult to take them seriously.

There are also those of us who don’t voice support the UK government yet expect better from the SG with the devolved powers / budget available.

[grunt]

Trust and respect are hard, sometimes impossible, to regain.

Oh dear! A Tory supporter talking about trust and respect in politics is more than I can take on a Monday morning!

[Skol]

Oh dear! A Tory supporter talking about trust and respect in politics is more than I can take on a Monday morning!

There it is again

[grunt]

There it is again

There's no misconception in my post. You are mistaken.

[Ozyhibby]

I trust that after next Monday Yousaf and Forbes will both become very powerful at the top of the SNP and will start a rebuild of the party between them.


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[He's here!]

There it is again

It appears that for some it's still the case that for as long as the Tories/Westminster are perceived to be worse the tolerance levels for the SNP's ineptitude remain pretty elastic.

To be fair though, I'm not seeing anyone actually defending them.

[WeeRussell]

HH isn't criticising Scotland, he's criticising the SG. What system performs worse with dugs deaths that he mentions in his post?

They have a fair bit to answer for, but not sure we can lay canine mortality rates at the SNP’s door 😁

[archie]

I trust that after next Monday Yousaf and Forbes will both become very powerful at the top of the SNP and will start a rebuild of the party between them.


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Why do you think both of them will be powerful?

[Santa Cruz]

They have a fair bit to answer for, but not sure we can lay canine mortality rates at the SNP’s door 😁

Jings :greengrin fixed now. Ta for pointing out. :aok:

[grunt]

It appears that for some it's still the case that for as long as the Tories/Westminster are perceived to be worse the tolerance levels for the SNP's ineptitude remain pretty elastic. To be fair though, I'm not seeing anyone actually defending them.
It's not that at all. I simply don't think that any Tory supporter should be criticising another party for a lack of trust and respect in politics. It's hugely hypocritical.

[Ozyhibby]

Why do you think both of them will be powerful?

Because they are already now the two most powerful people in the party. The generation above them is now gone. Look how quickly it disintegrated once NS said she was standing down.
By Monday, one of them will be the most powerful person in the party but if they want to maintain that power then it will be a very smart thing to do to bring the other very close to them and give back some of that power. Compromises will be made. They are both very young and neither is looking at their last chance to lead so it’s in their interests to come together. Being the 2nd most powerful person in the party is a great launch pad for a future leadership bid.
This is a massive changing of the guard within the SNP and it’s been handled poorly by the old guard. How the new guard clean up after them will be important.
I fully expect a strong recovery from this and a strong SNP victory at the next election.


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[Since90+2]

Despite the mess the SNP has got itself into in the last few months it will still win the next election.

Doesn't say much for the standard of the other parties, does it?

[Santa Cruz]

Despite the mess the SNP has got itself into in the last few months it will still win the next election.

Doesn't say much for the standard of the other parties, does it?

Equally says just as much about SNP voters imo. Still happy to place a vote with a party in chaos mainly due to one issue. They're elected to Govern for all citizens, even two of the potential future FM's have pointed out how bad they've been at doing this.

[Since90+2]

Equally says just as much about SNP voters imo. Still happy to place a vote with a party in chaos mainly due to one issue. They're elected to Govern for all citizens, even two of the potential future FM's have pointed out how bad they've been at doing this.

I think that's too simplistic a view IMO. Sure some will vote for them purely based on independence, but then you have folk who would never vote for them due to that same issue.

A fair proportion of people will still view them as the most capable party.

[Santa Cruz]

I think that's too simplistic a view IMO. Sure some will vote for them purely based on independence, but then you have folk who would never vote for them due to that same issue.

A fair proportion of people will still view them as the most capable party.

Last poll posted on here showed the public would rather have Anas as FM than Humza.

[archie]

Because they are already now the two most powerful people in the party. The generation above them is now gone. Look how quickly it disintegrated once NS said she was standing down.
By Monday, one of them will be the most powerful person in the party but if they want to maintain that power then it will be a very smart thing to do to bring the other very close to them and give back some of that power. Compromises will be made. They are both very young and neither is looking at their last chance to lead so it’s in their interests to come together. Being the 2nd most powerful person in the party is a great launch pad for a future leadership bid.
This is a massive changing of the guard within the SNP and it’s been handled poorly by the old guard. How the new guard clean up after them will be important.
I fully expect a strong recovery from this and a strong SNP victory at the next election.


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I think self preservation will force compromise. And it's possible that the LBJ axiom will come into play. But the sheer viciousness of the election and the chaos in the party don't look good. And unlike any time in the previous 20 years there is open factionalism in the party. A number of MSPs have said they would not serve under Kate Forbes. As far as I can see ordinary members are aghast at the shambles. Humza is the continuity candidate. But who wants continuity now? Could the SNP win the next election? Sure. But I would advise a crash course in the collapse of Labour in Scotland. If nothing else that tells us that nothing lasts forever.

[He's here!]

I rarely see anyone who points out the issues and also supports the uk government. This is a misconception that the Indy side need to realise they make.

https://twitter.com/AlexSalmond

Salmond's clearly loving the implosion.

[Since90+2]

Last poll posted on here showed the public would rather have Anas as FM than Humza.

I'm not sure that would result in the required votes for Labour to out the SNP though.

I'm also not sure the size of the poll, and if they also asked the question of Kate Forbes v Sarwar, but my instinct is all those licking their lips at the thought of a non SNP Government at Holyrood may be disappointed.

[neil7908]

When is the winner announced?

[Santa Cruz]

I'm not sure that would result in the required votes for Labour to out the SNP though.

I'm also not sure the size of the poll, and if they also asked the question of Kate Forbes v Sarwar, but my instinct is all those licking their lips at the thought of a non SNP Government at Holyrood may be disappointed.

I'm a realist. I expect the SNP will win the next election with a few lost seats. I think the decline in support will continue once Labour win the next G.E., to the point there will be an SNP/Labour Gov in Holyrood at the following election. Their decline will be slower due to the votes they win from Indy supporters, but it will happen imo. I mentioned quite far back on another thread eventually the public will always force change with a government, happens with all parties. It's a good thing and necessary in a healthy democracy, even if you don't like the election result.

[Ozyhibby]

When is the winner announced?

A week today.
Who the winner is will not be as important as the reaction from the person 2nd. If there is losers consent then the party can start rebuilding quickly with a new generation of leaders. There will likely be a lot of meeting held before a new cabinet starts to be appointed. And there will also be the matter of speaking to the greens.
At that point they have to go to the parliament and try get the new FM elected. If that fails then it’s back to the people.
There are lots of moving parts here.


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[archie]

Despite the mess the SNP has got itself into in the last few months it will still win the next election.

Doesn't say much for the standard of the other parties, does it?

Worth remembering that the SNP doesn't have a majority in the Parliament.

[weecounty hibby]

Worth remembering that the SNP doesn't have a majority in the Parliament.

Holyrood is designed in such a way as to prevent majorities. And rightly so. But the fact that the SNO were so close last time and have actually achieved a majority shows the strength of the support they have

[He's here!]

https://www.ft.com/content/17a1fffc-d820-49c5-a5a7-d588332dc10a

Path to independence starts with respect for unionists, says SNP leadership candidate

“I’m very conscious that our political discourse has become extremely vitriolic, toxic, angry, disrespectful,” Forbes said, stressing the SNP’s need to win people over to independence.“That needs to start with respect and it needs to start with listening, which is a fundamentally different approach,” she said. "I'm popular across most political divides and surely that's the kind of person you want to lead your party and your country."

It surprises me, bearing in mind how quickly Forbes has trashed Sturgeon's government, why nobody has really asked her why she stayed in post. And does making a virtue of 'being popular' with her party's opponents make her popular with the SNP membership?

[grunt]

Worth remembering that the SNP doesn't have a majority in the Parliament.Worth remembering that the Scottish Parliament voting system is designed to make it more difficult for one party to have an outright majority.

[grunt]

And does making a virtue of 'being popular' with her party's opponents make her popular with the SNP membership?
We shall soon see.

[archie]

Holyrood is designed in such a way as to prevent majorities. And rightly so. But the fact that the SNO were so close last time and have actually achieved a majority shows the strength of the support they have

You are absolutely right. But even a small drop off in votes can have significant implications. In the immediate future there is the small issue of electing the FM. Will the Greens really not vote for Kate Forbes should she win? And going into the next UK General Election, there are a lot of very tight majorities. The next Scottish Parliament election also poses a difficult question - does the SNP go for SNP 1 and 2? If it is about independence they should. If it is about control they won't.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.ft.com/content/17a1fffc-d820-49c5-a5a7-d588332dc10a

Path to independence starts with respect for unionists, says SNP leadership candidate

“I’m very conscious that our political discourse has become extremely vitriolic, toxic, angry, disrespectful,” Forbes said, stressing the SNP’s need to win people over to independence.“That needs to start with respect and it needs to start with listening, which is a fundamentally different approach,” she said. "I'm popular across most political divides and surely that's the kind of person you want to lead your party and your country."

It surprises me, bearing in mind how quickly Forbes has trashed Sturgeon's government, why nobody has really asked her why she stayed in post. And does making a virtue of 'being popular' with her party's opponents make her popular with the SNP membership?

I agree with her statement. Very small straw poll across some of my family, 5 Labour voters, 1 SNP. 4 Labour voters favour her, one's in the couldnae care less anymore camp, the SNP voter also favours her.

None of us know if she disagreed with any major policy decisions at Cabinet meetings and was overruled by consensus. Why should she leave her post if that was the case and she had full confidence in her own abilities when it comes to her own career ambitions? The way I see it her approach to winning No voters over is the only way a S30 will ever be granted in the future. I might not agree with her on some issues, but again all I see in statements from her or when she speaks is honesty.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm a realist. I expect the SNP will win the next election with a few lost seats. I think the decline in support will continue once Labour win the next G.E., to the point there will be an SNP/Labour Gov in Holyrood at the following election. Their decline will be slower due to the votes they win from Indy supporters, but it will happen imo. I mentioned quite far back on another thread eventually the public will always force change with a government, happens with all parties. It's a good thing and necessary in a healthy democracy, even if you don't like the election result.

Agree with most of that. The SNP is knackered. A Forbes reset might kick start things or might make it fall apart. A Humza continuation will continue the decline and they'll end up in opposition.

Let's face it, there is no way round the indyref2 conundrum without a large increase in support for Indy and that's not going to happen any time soon, imo. The indy tide is receding for now, but unless Unionism finds a way to not just criticise independence, but actually make the Scottish electorate content and bought into the Union, it will come again.

Bit I don't agree with is SNP/Lab at Holyrood. On what planet?????? Ask Mibbes and ODS how much they're looking forward to shacking up with the Nats any time this side of armageddon? :greengrin

Actually they're too busy with all this Schadenfreude to answer for a while anyway, I think. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Holyrood is designed in such a way as to prevent majorities. And rightly so. But the fact that the SNO were so close last time and have actually achieved a majority shows the strength of the support they have

It also highlights the flaws in the Holyrood system. That majority was something like 54% of the seats from 44% of the votes. Straying into FPTP territory there.

As far as it goes, I think any polling will miss out on a very late swing back to the incumbent. That’s almost universal in politics. I vaguely remember some academic research (Exeter maybe, or Nottingham) that suggested it was even more pronounced for nationalist parties. I can’t remember the dating of the research though, so it may not be a thing any more. Instinctively, I feel the SNP will likely pull some voters back for Holyrood or Westminster, notwithstanding their current travails.

[JeMeSouviens]

You are absolutely right. But even a small drop off in votes can have significant implications. In the immediate future there is the small issue of electing the FM. Will the Greens really not vote for Kate Forbes should she win? And going into the next UK General Election, there are a lot of very tight majorities. The next Scottish Parliament election also poses a difficult question - does the SNP go for SNP 1 and 2? If it is about independence they should. If it is about control they won't.

I would guess the Greens would abstain and Forbes would go for minority gov and issue by issue support. I think even if they're not saying it in public, the new SNP leader will have to stop promising a ref they can't deliver and make sure they get democratic support from conference upwards for anything they want to take forward at Holyrood. A continuation of attempted iron top-down control is the biggest danger to the SNP going forward, imo.

[archie]

Agree with most of that. The SNP is knackered. A Forbes reset might kick start things or might make it fall apart. A Humza continuation will continue the decline and they'll end up in opposition.

Let's face it, there is no way round the indyref2 conundrum without a large increase in support for Indy and that's not going to happen any time soon, imo. The indy tide is receding for now, but unless Unionism finds a way to not just criticise independence, but actually make the Scottish electorate content and bought into the Union, it will come again.

Bit I don't agree with is SNP/Lab at Holyrood. On what planet?????? Ask Mibbes and ODS how much they're looking forward to shacking up with the Nats any time this side of armageddon? :greengrin

Actually they're too busy with all this Schadenfreude to answer for a while anyway, I think. :wink:
I think a lot depends on how a party handles minority government. The SNP in 2007 did it brilliantly. Stride forward with confidence and ignore set backs. It helped that there was disarray in Labour ranks. On the Labour SNP government, would that actually be so bad? A lot of the values are broadly similar. Obviously independence would be a deal breaker, but would the SNP rather be out of government? It might make sense to do that and regroup, but it would give Labour the advantage of being in government.

[Santa Cruz]

Agree with most of that. The SNP is knackered. A Forbes reset might kick start things or might make it fall apart. A Humza continuation will continue the decline and they'll end up in opposition.

Let's face it, there is no way round the indyref2 conundrum without a large increase in support for Indy and that's not going to happen any time soon, imo. The indy tide is receding for now, but unless Unionism finds a way to not just criticise independence, but actually make the Scottish electorate content and bought into the Union, it will come again.

Bit I don't agree with is SNP/Lab at Holyrood. On what planet?????? Ask Mibbes and ODS how much they're looking forward to shacking up with the Nats any time this side of armageddon? :greengrin

Actually they're too busy with all this Schadenfreude to answer for a while anyway, I think. :wink:

Obviously wouldn't be the preferred route for Labour to re-enter Gov, sort of think any of the parties would take whatever opportunity they could to regain some power, with the one exception of a Labour /Tory coalition at Holyrood or WM.

Imo Coalition Gov's don't work well in this country, they take an age to overcome their own party political disagreements on policy decisions before legislation gets to the parliamentary vote stage, purely to keep building support for their own party amongst voters with their eye always on the next election. Slows everything down.

[Mibbes Aye]

Agree with most of that. The SNP is knackered. A Forbes reset might kick start things or might make it fall apart. A Humza continuation will continue the decline and they'll end up in opposition.

Let's face it, there is no way round the indyref2 conundrum without a large increase in support for Indy and that's not going to happen any time soon, imo. The indy tide is receding for now, but unless Unionism finds a way to not just criticise independence, but actually make the Scottish electorate content and bought into the Union, it will come again.

Bit I don't agree with is SNP/Lab at Holyrood. On what planet?????? Ask Mibbes and ODS how much they're looking forward to shacking up with the Nats any time this side of armageddon? :greengrin

Actually they're too busy with all this Schadenfreude to answer for a while anyway, I think. :wink:

I would like to say that given we are talking about almost certainly the next FM here, then schadenfreude has no place, it’s far too serious for that.

As I say, I would like to say that but I can’t!! It’s a right old laugh and no mistake :greengrin

Anyway, nice to see you back and hope things are well, or as well as can be.

[Mibbes Aye]

Obviously wouldn't be the preferred route for Labour to re-enter Gov, sort of think any of the parties would take whatever opportunity they could to regain some power, with the one exception of a Labour /Tory coalition at Holyrood or WM.

Imo Coalition Gov's don't work well in this country, they take an age to overcome their own party political disagreements on policy decisions before legislation gets to the parliamentary vote stage, purely to keep building support for their own party amongst voters with their eye always on the next election. Slows everything down.

Re your second paragraph, it’s an unreserved ‘absolutely yes’ from me. To paraphrase Johann Lamont, one gets the impression Scots are not genetically programmed for coalition politics. You only have to look at the internecine warfare in council chambers up and down the country for that.

[archie]

Re your second paragraph, it’s an unreserved ‘absolutely yes’ from me. To paraphrase Johann Lamont, one gets the impression Scots are not genetically programmed for coalition politics. You only have to look at the internecine warfare in council chambers up and down the country for that.

That is, of course, misrepresenting what Johann Lamont actually said!

[Ozyhibby]

You are absolutely right. But even a small drop off in votes can have significant implications. In the immediate future there is the small issue of electing the FM. Will the Greens really not vote for Kate Forbes should she win? And going into the next UK General Election, there are a lot of very tight majorities. The next Scottish Parliament election also poses a difficult question - does the SNP go for SNP 1 and 2? If it is about independence they should. If it is about control they won't.

The SNP will always go for 1&2. And so they should.


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[Mibbes Aye]

That is, of course, misrepresenting what Johann Lamont actually said!

Yup. She joins Peter Mandelson, Liam Byrne and countless others whose words have been knowingly misrepresented over the years.

I guess that’s politics, one should expect a low bar. Still disappoints though.

[Ozyhibby]

Re your second paragraph, it’s an unreserved ‘absolutely yes’ from me. To paraphrase Johann Lamont, one gets the impression Scots are not genetically programmed for coalition politics. You only have to look at the internecine warfare in council chambers up and down the country for that.

Surely all those Labour/Tory coalitions are humming along nicely?[emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

I think a lot depends on how a party handles minority government. The SNP in 2007 did it brilliantly. Stride forward with confidence and ignore set backs. It helped that there was disarray in Labour ranks. On the Labour SNP government, would that actually be so bad? A lot of the values are broadly similar. Obviously independence would be a deal breaker, but would the SNP rather be out of government? It might make sense to do that and regroup, but it would give Labour the advantage of being in government.

Since the values are broadly similar, it ought to be able for a minority from either to find support from the other to keep going. Obvs both sides have to feel they're getting the political/publicity wins from that, which is where it gets difficult.

Yes, I think the SNP would rather be out of gov than sell out on indy, even not practically achievable at the moment indy.

[archie]

The SNP will always go for 1&2. And so they should.


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Why? There is an inverse relationship between constuency and list msps. Isn't that putting party before country?

[JeMeSouviens]

I would like to say that given we are talking about almost certainly the next FM here, then schadenfreude has no place, it’s far too serious for that.

As I say, I would like to say that but I can’t!! It’s a right old laugh and no mistake :greengrin

Anyway, nice to see you back and hope things are well, or as well as can be.

Thanks, it's nice to see you enjoying yourself on here at least. :na na:

[JeMeSouviens]

That is, of course, misrepresenting what Johann Lamont actually said!

The best bit about that is that a lot of the people doing the misrepresenting genuinely don't think they are. :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

Since the values are broadly similar, it ought to be able for a minority from either to find support from the other to keep going. Obvs both sides have to feel they're getting the political/publicity wins from that, which is where it gets difficult.

Yes, I think the SNP would rather be out of gov than sell out on indy, even not practically achievable at the moment indy.

I think a period of campaigning for enhancing devolution might be wise for now. Im in favour of gradualism anyway but it is also a way of improving the lives of Scots right now.
The current devolution set up in the UK is a mess and there is a lot of scope for improvement. That is how you win over the middle ground of voters.


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[Ozyhibby]

Why? There is an inverse relationship between constuency and list msps. Isn't that putting party before country?

Show me another party that advocates voting for someone else? Even Labour and the Tories are not quite so brazen when the collaborate in Scottish elections.


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[He's here!]

I trust that after next Monday Yousaf and Forbes will both become very powerful at the top of the SNP and will start a rebuild of the party between them.


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Bearing in mind that Forbes appears to have abandoned her request for an independent auditor and now claims to have full confidence in the integrity of the election process, my guess would be she's already been offered the deputy leadership by Yousaf.

The fact that many votes were cast under Murrell's sleekit stewardship (and that interim stooge Russell claims that he knew nothing about the membership numbers fiasco) remains a problem though and while I don't imagine she could win, Regan is rightly continuing to call for a restart to the voting process.

[archie]

Show me another party that advocates voting for someone else? Even Labour and the Tories are not quite so brazen when the collaborate in Scottish elections.


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Well Labour and Tories have fundamentally different values. Why would you not want to build a broad independence coalition?

[archie]

Bearing in mind that Forbes appears to have abandoned her request for an independent auditor and now claims to have full confidence in the integrity of the election process, my guess would be she's already been offered the deputy leadership by Yousaf.

The fact that many votes were cast under Murrell's sleekit stewardship (and that interim stooge Russell claims that he knew nothing about the membership numbers fiasco) remains a problem though and while I don't imagine she could win, Regan is rightly continuing to call for a restart to the voting process.

Or thinks she's winning?

[Ozyhibby]

Or thinks she's winning?

Or believes in the integrity of the process.[emoji106]


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[archie]

Or believes in the integrity of the process.[emoji106]


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https://news.sky.com/story/ash-regan-and-kate-forbes-write-open-letter-demanding-for-snp-membership-numbers-to-be-published-12834670

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/ash-regan-and-kate-forbes-write-open-letter-demanding-for-snp-membership-numbers-to-be-published-12834670

That’s from last Thursday?


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[Berwickhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/ash-regan-and-kate-forbes-write-open-letter-demanding-for-snp-membership-numbers-to-be-published-12834670

That’s Thursdays news ….keep up 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[archie]

That’s from last Thursday?


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Well integrity concerns took out the party CEO! I know it's fast moving, but really!

[Ozyhibby]

Well integrity concerns took out the party CEO! I know it's fast moving, but really!

Correctly and she is now satisfied. Not difficult to understand.


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[He's here!]

Well integrity concerns took out the party CEO! I know it's fast moving, but really!

Indeed. She raised her concerns only once the voting had been open for some time. If that part of the process was flawed, does Murrell's departure do anything to change that? Russell's claiming he knew nothing about the issues raised and doesn't intend to look into them at present. Hardly confidence-inspiring. Yousaf and Forbes have come to a deal IMO.

[archie]

Correctly and she is now satisfied. Not difficult to understand.


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She raised concerns on Thursday in the middle of the election. This is Monday. What do you think changed?