So the runners and riders are...

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/ashregansnp/status/1630538663082745856?s=46&t=Bn_b5olDRmgeqN5hfU4rvQ

Regan spots the inconsistency if not quite the opportunity.


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[Rumble de Thump]

I think my point is that the SNP have lost sight of the bigger issues.

It seems like it's the media and the SNP's opponents that don't want people to focus on the bigger issues.

[superfurryhibby]

It seems like it's the media and the SNP's opponents that don't want people to focus on the bigger issues.

I rather think that this failing SNP government prefers that approach. I say this as someone who has voted for them since 1992.

I'm no supporter of Alba either, just a thoroughly disillusioned former supporter of the party.

[marinello59]

It seems like it's the media and the SNP's opponents that don't want people to focus on the bigger issues.

This is all down the SNP itself. If they can’t control the agenda during an internal party election then they truly are in a worse state than I thought.

[Paul1642]

There is a sizeable pro independence section of the population that will always vote for SNP and for independence no matter what, at least until independence is achieved (if ever). Just as there is a sizeable pro union section who would never vote for the SNP or for independence no matter how competent the party.

The way to work as a majority government and to gain independence is to win over the 3rd section of the population who are fluid and vote on policy and how well the government is or is not doing.

This is always where the SNP has fallen just a fraction short and why they can’t constantly poll over 50%.

Yousaf will probably appeal more to the core SNP faction but he is not going to win over anybody who didn’t intent to vote for SNP / independence already and will also likely dive some voters away.

Forbes on the other hand will be less popular with the core pro SNP group who would still vote SNP regardless so nothing lost, and has a much high higher likelihood of winning over new voters.

I personally don’t care who’s is in government as long as they are doing a good job, therefore making life better for everyone in Scotland and Forbes is ticking all the right boxes for me right now.

A a fluid voter, if there was a Scottish selection this year I would probably vote for SNP under Forbes however Labour if Yousaf was FM.

It’s people like me that the SNP need to be targeting if they want to win a majority and keep pushing for Indy and I truly just don’t ever see Yousaf wining over anyone that sturgeon could not. He’s effectively a much less competent version of what we already have.

[Rumble de Thump]

This is all down the SNP itself. If they can’t control the agenda during an internal party election then they truly are in a worse state than I thought.

No. They don't own the media.

[Hibby Bairn]

I agree with this 👆 (Paul1642). And I'm also a "floater".

[marinello59]

No. They don't own the media.

It’s an internal election. They are really only talking to their own party members as that is the electorate here. You can’t blame the media for the car crash we have seen so far, blame the poor talent left to contest this.

[AgentDaleCooper]

He doesn't believe in self ID for everyone. You can't say I believe in it, unless they are done with rape. Self ID is front and center to the debate.

I think this is a symptom of the debate having become so toxic - the media has whipped everyone up into this limmy-esque 'yes or no!' thing about whether rapists can be women, because they know that if the person they're asking bites the bullet, they'll have a headline, and that person will get completely slated.

the correct answer, IMO, is that if someone self IDs through the proper channels, then they are the gender they ID as, meaning that someone can be a man, commit a horrifically awful crime, then afterwards change their gender. The question is whether they should be allowed into general population of women's prisons, to which the answer is obviously no. Not because they're 'not a woman', but because they are a convicted rapist.

the reason this is important is that if you make exceptions to self ID, it opens the door to transphobic people making exceptions, looking for excuses to misgender people.

the reason no one is articulating this straightforwardly is because if one did, they would get absolutely slaughtered by the parasitic elements in the press.

[AgentDaleCooper]

There is a sizeable pro independence section of the population that will always vote for SNP and for independence no matter what, at least until independence is achieved (if ever). Just as there is a sizeable pro union section who would never vote for the SNP or for independence no matter how competent the party.

The way to work as a majority government and to gain independence is to win over the 3rd section of the population who are fluid and vote on policy and how well the government is or is not doing.

This is always where the SNP has fallen just a fraction short and why they can’t constantly poll over 50%.

Yousaf will probably appeal more to the core SNP faction but he is not going to win over anybody who didn’t intent to vote for SNP / independence already and will also likely dive some voters away.

Forbes on the other hand will be less popular with the core pro SNP group who would still vote SNP regardless so nothing lost, and has a much high higher likelihood of winning over new voters.

I personally don’t care who’s is in government as long as they are doing a good job, therefore making life better for everyone in Scotland and Forbes is ticking all the right boxes for me right now.

A a fluid voter, if there was a Scottish selection this year I would probably vote for SNP under Forbes however Labour if Yousaf was FM.

It’s people like me that the SNP need to be targeting if they want to win a majority and keep pushing for Indy and I truly just don’t ever see Yousaf wining over anyone that sturgeon could not. He’s effectively a much less competent version of what we already have.

the only reason people think this is because we basically nothing about the policies that she'll be putting forward, and that she's not Humza Yousaf.

[Santa Cruz]

the only reason people think this is because we basically nothing about the policies that she'll be putting forward, and that she's not Humza Yousaf.

She was holding an online event today hosted by Reform Scotland (non-partisan public policy institute) to speak about her policies and take questions. Anyone could request an invitation, it was a remote event.

[Rumble de Thump]

It’s an internal election. They are really only talking to their own party members as that is the electorate here. You can’t blame the media for the car crash we have seen so far, blame the poor talent left to contest this.

Can't blame the media for the media's output? Ok.

[Stairway 2 7]

We won't here how the hustings go for our new First Minister

ChrisGreenNews
SNP has just confirmed that media will *not* be allowed to attend party's 9 leadership hustings events

Spokesman: "It is the members who will be voting for the next leader of the party, so the SNP NEC has designed the party hustings as a safe space for members to ask questions of the three candidates

[Ozyhibby]

We won't here how the hustings go for our new First Minister

ChrisGreenNews
SNP has just confirmed that media will *not* be allowed to attend party's 9 leadership hustings events

Spokesman: "It is the members who will be voting for the next leader of the party, so the SNP NEC has designed the party hustings as a safe space for members to ask questions of the three candidates

There are tv debates though.
I’m going to the one at the corn exchange. Will be interesting to see what the make up of members is like. Right now, the media is just guessing who is doing well. There is no polling of snp members done at all.

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[Stairway 2 7]

There are tv debates though.


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That's not the same, an hour debate. If it was just for leader of the snp it would be one thing but this is for Scotland's leader, there should be transparency.

[Stairway 2 7]

There are tv debates though.
I’m going to the one at the corn exchange. Will be interesting to see what the make up of members is like. Right now, the media is just guessing who is doing well. There is no polling of snp members done at all.

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Didn't the last poll of members show something like 50% had a degree, mostly white older and in the majority men, so not representative of the population

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't the last poll of members show something like 50% had a degree, mostly white older and in the majority men, so not representative of the population

I’ve no idea to be honest. I’ve never seen any polling on that. That’s sound entirely possible though. I doubt it reflects SNP voters.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’ve no idea to be honest. I’ve never seen any polling on that. That’s sound entirely possible though. I doubt it reflects SNP voters.


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Snp voters I'd assume would be more diverse and on average younger than other parties, a guess though

[marinello59]

Snp voters I'd assume would be more diverse and on average younger than other parties, a guess though

The membership who vote in this one is apparently made up of the same middle aged middle class grouping as the other parties.

[grunt]

Snp voters I'd assume would be more diverse and on average younger than other parties, a guess though
Also better looking, snappier dressers, nicer haircuts.

[Ozyhibby]

Also better looking, snappier dressers, nicer haircuts.

Bollocks, now I’m going to feel all self conscious.[emoji23]


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[grunt]

What's the evidence to suggest they have done pretty well? On Education in schools for example what evidence is there things are good?


You made a claim that they govern well and there is evidence, I am still waiting for that evidence. Education for example?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqEWmv6WAAAkqUA?format=jpg&name=medium

[James310]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqEWmv6WAAAkqUA?format=jpg&name=medium

Is this the old "positive destinations" stats? So someone on a zero hours contract in a dead end job would be included in that? Nothing to do with how the education standards are in schools there I am afraid.

Since Scotland has withdrawn from the PISA rankings how are we doing on things like English, Maths and science?

Must try harder, 4/10.

What are the leaderships candidates plans for Education? Do we even know?

Edit: how old is your stat?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/number-of-scottish-school-leavers-going-to-positive-destinations-falls-as-attainment-gap-grows-3144723

[Ozyhibby]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqEWmv6WAAAkqUA?format=jpg&name=medium

They are only doing that because it’s free though.[emoji849]


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[James310]

We won't here how the hustings go for our new First Minister

ChrisGreenNews
SNP has just confirmed that media will *not* be allowed to attend party's 9 leadership hustings events

Spokesman: "It is the members who will be voting for the next leader of the party, so the SNP NEC has designed the party hustings as a safe space for members to ask questions of the three candidates

Dawn Alford of the Society of Editors (@EditorsUK) said: “Given that the upcoming SNP leadership election will determine the next First Minister of Scotland, it is outrageous that the decision has been made to conduct hustings events behind closed doors."

To be honest if I was in charge I would also be making them behind closed door and banning mobile phones. Shame we can't see it but understandable.

I am sure footage will be leaked, would be nice to see democracy in action from the party so keen on democracy.

Did the Tories televise their hustings?

[archie]

I think this is a symptom of the debate having become so toxic - the media has whipped everyone up into this limmy-esque 'yes or no!' thing about whether rapists can be women, because they know that if the person they're asking bites the bullet, they'll have a headline, and that person will get completely slated.

the correct answer, IMO, is that if someone self IDs through the proper channels, then they are the gender they ID as, meaning that someone can be a man, commit a horrifically awful crime, then afterwards change their gender. The question is whether they should be allowed into general population of women's prisons, to which the answer is obviously no. Not because they're 'not a woman', but because they are a convicted rapist.

the reason this is important is that if you make exceptions to self ID, it opens the door to transphobic people making exceptions, looking for excuses to misgender people.

the reason no one is articulating this straightforwardly is because if one did, they would get absolutely slaughtered by the parasitic elements in the press.
Isn't that a fundamental weakness in a) the legislation and b) the wider public not being fully engaged. If you can't give a straightforward answer without being labeled transphobic then something is far wrong.

[grunt]

If you can't give a straightforward answer without being labeled transphobic then something is far wrong.
If you can't engage in debate without labelling someone transphobic then something is far wrong.

[grunt]

Did the Tories televise their hustings?Who can forget this fantastic speech?


https://youtu.be/xegB9J-mn1A

[archie]

If you can't engage in debate without labelling someone transphobic then something is far wrong.

I completely agree. Unfortunately this is an area where any questioning generates a hyperbolic response.

[grunt]

Dawn Alford of the Society of Editors (@EditorsUK) said: “Given that the upcoming SNP leadership election will determine the next First Minister of Scotland, it is outrageous that the decision has been made to conduct hustings events behind closed doors."

To be honest if I was in charge I would also be making them behind closed door and banning mobile phones. Shame we can't see it but understandable.

I am sure footage will be leaked, would be nice to see democracy in action from the party so keen on democracy.

Did the Tories televise their hustings?
Kate Forbes is now calling for the SNP leadership hustings events to be livestreamed. She said: "It is no surprise that the general public as well as the media are keen to follow the debate too."

[James310]

Who can forget this fantastic speech?


https://youtu.be/xegB9J-mn1A

Exactly, we should be seeing people as they are.

[grunt]

Exactly, we should be seeing people as they are.Which is what Kate Forbes is proposing. Are you complaining about that?

[James310]

Which is what Kate Forbes is proposing. Are you complaining about that?

No, why would I?

Don't we actually agree on this for a change? They should be televised.

I can totally understand why she wants them televised.

[superfurryhibby]

I suspect the SNP are going to experience a sharp decline in their electoral fortunes with Forbes as leader. Her social and economic conservatism is not aligned to what people in Scotland want and her personal views on abortion and same sex marriage, just to name a few, are not acceptable for a First Minister of this country.

[archie]

I suspect the SNP are going to experience a sharp decline in their electoral fortunes with Forbes as leader. Her social and economic conservatism is not aligned to what people in Scotland want and her personal views on abortion and same sex marriage, just to name a few, are not acceptable for a First Minister of this country.
Actually I think she will win. Why? Because, in my view, Scotland (and SNP) members are more socially conservative than noisy activists. I also think she in building on the Salmond manta of competence. I don't think the other candidates appear to be able to offer that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Kate Forbes is now calling for the SNP leadership hustings events to be livestreamed. She said: "It is no surprise that the general public as well as the media are keen to follow the debate too."

She's been smart to come out for it, lots of pressure on the others to agree or look guarded. She's had a great few days after a perhaps fatally bad first week

[James310]

Actually I think she will win. Why? Because, in my view, Scotland (and SNP) members are more socially conservative than noisy activists. I also think she in building on the Salmond manta of competence. I don't think the other candidates appear to be able to offer that.

Would agree with that, by far the most competent of the 3 by a mile. If she can deliver a competent government she could make a breakthrough.

The big problem is will she be given that chance? If she wins will she even be voted as FM, won't thousands leave the SNP as well etc. Mhairi Black for example would surely leave after her attack on Forbes the other week.

By far the most suitable for the role but also in the eyes of many people the least suitable. I reckon she will win.

Could Ash Regan sneak up the middle with second preference votes and do anything?

[archie]

Kate Forbes is now calling for the SNP leadership hustings events to be livestreamed. She said: "It is no surprise that the general public as well as the media are keen to follow the debate too."

I think she connects better with the wider public than Humza and Ash. I suspect she'll handle debate questions better. She wants it as widely visible as possible. It also subtley reinforces the view that the party is hiding things to protect a favoured candidate.

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually I think she will win. Why? Because, in my view, Scotland (and SNP) members are more socially conservative than noisy activists. I also think she in building on the Salmond manta of competence. I don't think the other candidates appear to be able to offer that.

I think Yousaf will win, but I think Forbes would be most popular and the best vote wise. Even after that week she polls the best in the public and snp voters.

[James310]

Ash Regan saying they should be open to the media as well. I don't think everyone wants to watch 9 husting events on the TV but the media should at least be let it for reporting.

It's only Humza that wants no media, who can think why?

[Stairway 2 7]

Ash Regan saying they should be open to the media as well. I don't think everyone wants to watch 9 husting events on the TV but the media should at least be let it for reporting.

It's only Humza that wants no media, who can think why?

@NeilDrysdale
·
Ash Regan on the hustings decision; "The media have a job to do, and as candidates, we have a duty to be held to scrutiny. I firmly believe we should allow access and ask that the media carry the proceedings fairly and fully - making them available to all

[marinello59]

@NeilDrysdale
·
Ash Regan on the hustings decision; "The media have a job to do, and as candidates, we have a duty to be held to scrutiny. I firmly believe we should allow access and ask that the media carry the proceedings fairly and fully - making them available to all

Looks like Yousaf is going to have to ask the Murrells if he agrees with that. :greengrin

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64803094

Extraordinary decision to exclude media from the hustings and clearly one not all candidates agree with. There would be uproar if, say, the Tories adopted a similar approach.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/kate-forbes-says-she-will-rethink-snps-flagship-national-care-service-plans-4045381

More from Forbes.


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[Zambernardi1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64803094

Extraordinary decision to exclude media from the hustings and clearly one not all candidates agree with. There would be uproar if, say, the Tories adopted a similar approach.

oh so now were allowed to compare ourselves with the tories. :rolleyes:

[He's here!]

I note Forbes has ditched her campaign manager and replaced him with Michelle Thomson, one of the gender reform 'rebels'.

I guess after the disastrous start to her campaign he had to go.

[Ozyhibby]

I note Forbes has ditched her campaign manager and replaced him with Michelle Thomson, one of the gender reform 'rebels'.

I guess after the disastrous start to her campaign he had to go.

No idea what the reasons are behind it but it’s fair to say planning did appear to be lacking.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Snp uturn and will allow 1 camera

https://mobile.twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1630657453250555907

[marinello59]

Snp uturn and will allow 1 camera

https://mobile.twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1630657453250555907

Will they allow microphones as well ? Or will we have actors dubbing the voices of Forbes and Regan like we had with Gerry Adams in the seventies? :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

Will they allow microphones as well ? Or will we have actors dubbing the voices of Forbes and Regan like we had with Gerry Adams in the seventies? :greengrin

Make them inhale helium first like on The Day Today

[marinello59]

Make them inhale helium first like on The Day Today

:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

The membership who vote in this one is apparently made up of the same middle aged middle class grouping as the other parties.

Sunday National had a bit about the members, 70% over 50 and 60% male. Also predominantly ABC1

[JimBHibees]

This is all down the SNP itself. If they can’t control the agenda during an internal party election then they truly are in a worse state than I thought.

Agenda being set by a rabid anti snp media of course

[marinello59]

Agenda being set by a rabid anti snp media of course

It’s Regan and Forbes trashing Sturgeon’s legacy, not the media.

[The Modfather]

Will they allow microphones as well ? Or will we have actors dubbing the voices of Forbes and Regan like we had with Gerry Adams in the seventies? :greengrin

It’ll be Tommy Craig eating an apple beside them.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/kate-forbes-says-she-will-rethink-snps-flagship-national-care-service-plans-4045381

More from Forbes.


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Reading between the lines it would appear that she wouldn't be sad to abandon the National Care Service, at least in the way it has been mooted so far. Thank goodness for that.

Also talks of an independent inquiry into how we operate the NHS, short-, medium- and long-term. I've said too many times on here that there is a desperate need for this approach, similar to the Royal Commissions we had in the seventies. But, and it is a big but, there is no point looking at health care without looking at social care. And there is no point looking at health and social care without considering housing, education and the national workforce. And there is no point looking at all those if it doesn't recognise localism and communities of place. Still, it's a positive noise.

If she could row back on things like the oil and gas then I would like her more still.

[He's here!]

This is all down the SNP itself. If they can’t control the agenda during an internal party election then they truly are in a worse state than I thought.

Murrell needs to step down.

[heretoday]

It'll be like Truss v Sunak. We'll be sick of them all by the end. They'll make outrageous pledges in their desperation to win.

[Skol]

Agenda being set by a rabid anti snp media of course

It is always someone else’s fault

[Stairway 2 7]

Pedro Murrell of The National has been chosen

@paulhutcheon
·
I understand the SNP will allow *one* member of the Scottish Parliamentary Journalists Association to attend the first hustings

[Rumble de Thump]

It’s Regan and Forbes trashing Sturgeon’s legacy, not the media.

You seem to be getting increasingly muddled in your efforts to blame the SNP something that the media is obviously responsible for.

[Rumble de Thump]

It is always someone else’s fault

That's unfortunately a nonsensical statement that the media have trotted out ad nauseum for years now.

[grunt]

This is all down the SNP itself. If they can’t control the agenda during an internal party election then they truly are in a worse state than I thought.
Did you see BBC Scotland's reaction to Sunak's Brexit-revealing speech yesterday? Senior Political Editor Glenn Campbell said:


PM@RishiSunak seemed to describe a potential competitive advantage for Northern Ireland over Scotland, England and Wales in his #r4today interview on his new #Brexit deal.

"Seemed to describe"???????? He very plainly, with hand gestures included, explained that NI had an "unbelievable" advantage over the other UK countries.

So if this is how BBC Scotland reports something so clearly wrong, how do you think they will report on the SNP hustings? The SNP, a party despised by the BBC Scotland News team. They will selectively quote from what is said, and they will put their own anti-SNP spin on the event. It's going to happen. How do you think the SNP should "control the agenda"? Perhaps BBC Scotland should just be closed down.

[archie]

Did you see BBC Scotland's reaction to Sunak's Brexit-revealing speech yesterday? Senior Political Editor Glenn Campbell said:



"Seemed to describe"???????? He very plainly, with hand gestures included, explained that NI had an "unbelievable" advantage over the other UK countries.

So if this is how BBC Scotland reports something so clearly wrong, how do you think they will report on the SNP hustings? The SNP, a party despised by the BBC Scotland News team. They will selectively quote from what is said, and they will put their own anti-SNP spin on the event. It's going to happen. How do you think the SNP should "control the agenda"? Perhaps BBC Scotland should just be closed down.

Live stream it and let people judge.

[marinello59]

You seem to be getting increasingly muddled in your efforts to blame the SNP something that the media is obviously responsible for.

Muddled? I've been called worse on here.:greengrin

It's the SNP leadership contest we are talking about here so I'll stick to that.
Kate Forbes set the agenda from day one when she made some honest but controversial statements. I don't think we can blame the media for that, criticism was harsh from her own party members and it has lead to her original campaign manager stepping down already. Yousaf was called out for allegedly missing the vote on gay marriage to avoid upsetting his mosque. That came from Alex Neil, an SNP member. Another one we can't blame on the media. Regan decided apologising for the failure to duel the A9 on behalf of the SNP was a good idea leading to criticism from within her own party for looking like the opposition. I can't see how the media can be blamed for that either.
Both Regan and Forbes will drop the Gender Recognition Bill. Both look likely to pause or scrap the recycling scheme due to be introduced later this year. Forbes is in favour of scrapping the National Care Service and will drop the De-Facto referendum idea in favour of building support to a consistently high level before calling for an actual referendum. All of those things are directly opposed to Sturgeon's wishes. As the cliché goes a week is a long time in politics but to see Sturgeon's legacy being trashed so soon after her resignation is remarkable. Again, not of the medias doing, we can all see it happening in real time from the candidates own tweets etc. I can only admire the way the SNP kept discipline tight and dissent from the leadership quiet for almost a decade but it's fallen apart in less than ten days. I can't see how the media are to blame for that but happy for you to try and convince me otherwise.

[Ozyhibby]

Reading between the lines it would appear that she wouldn't be sad to abandon the National Care Service, at least in the way it has been mooted so far. Thank goodness for that.

Also talks of an independent inquiry into how we operate the NHS, short-, medium- and long-term. I've said too many times on here that there is a desperate need for this approach, similar to the Royal Commissions we had in the seventies. But, and it is a big but, there is no point looking at health care without looking at social care. And there is no point looking at health and social care without considering housing, education and the national workforce. And there is no point looking at all those if it doesn't recognise localism and communities of place. Still, it's a positive noise.

If she could row back on things like the oil and gas then I would like her more still.

The oil and gas bit is concerning but I guess it’s like the war on drugs anyway. You don’t fix the planet by trying to stop the supply of oil and gas but by reducing the demand for oil and gas.


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[Mibbes Aye]

You seem to be getting increasingly muddled in your efforts to blame the SNP something that the media is obviously responsible for.

You had some go at the media before this post and I was tempted to reply then, also to a poster above who did similar last night (but the cricket was far more entertaining :greengrin)

What I did do was have a quick scan when the other poster posted, just to see what ‘agenda-setting’ was being done by the ‘rabid‘anti-SNP media’.

So so I went on the trusty internet and clicked on the UK news, or Scotland news where available from a number of our news outlets

The Guardian - nothing. At all.

The BBC - one article, around sixth or seventh, about Humza’s latest statement on Isla Bryson. One imagines that as he made a public statement he wanted it reported. No real sign of an anti-SNP agenda, let alone a rabid one.

The Mail, The Express and the Telegraph - a good, heady mix of different brands oh Toryism here. But on SNP politics nothing at all. Nothing. At all. Except for a short article in the Telegraph, that was around the 18th story in and was anodyne in the extreme.

Now, I know how this goes. Because my cursory look revealed that a lot of these villainous media outlets didn’t have anything anti-SNP then they must be committing an even more heinous sin - that of ignoring the SNP! Which makes sense because all that grievance and self-entitlement needs an outlet somewhere.

One thing is for sure in all this. The media relies on content. It is getting plenty from the candidates.

[Smartie]

Muddled? I've been called worse on here.:greengrin

It's the SNP leadership contest we are talking about here so I'll stick to that.
Kate Forbes set the agenda from day one when she made some honest but controversial statements. I don't think we can blame the media for that, criticism was harsh from her own party members and it has lead to her original campaign manager stepping down already. Yousaf was called out for allegedly missing the vote on gay marriage to avoid upsetting his mosque. That came from Alex Neil, an SNP member. Another one we can't blame on the media. Regan decided apologising for the failure to duel the A9 on behalf of the SNP was a good idea leading to criticism from within her own party for looking like the opposition. I can't see how the media can be blamed for that either.
Both Regan and Forbes will drop the Gender Recognition Bill. Both look likely to pause or scrap the recycling scheme due to be introduced later this year. Forbes is in favour of scrapping the National Care Service and will drop the De-Facto referendum idea in favour of building support to a consistently high level before calling for an actual referendum. All of those things are directly opposed to Sturgeon's wishes. As the cliché goes a week is a long time in politics but to see Sturgeon's legacy being trashed so soon after her resignation is remarkable. Again, not of the medias doing, we can all see it happening in real time from the candidates own tweets etc. I can only admire the way the SNP kept discipline tight and dissent from the leadership quiet for almost a decade but it's fallen apart in less than ten days. I can't see how the media are to blame for that but happy for you to try and convince me otherwise.

Is Sturgeon's legacy being trashed?

Or is there an acknowledgment that whilst she got an awful lot right she got the odd thing wrong, the things she got wrong were increasing in number towards the end and there is now an opportunity for a fresh start, to ditch the unpopular and plain stupid policies she'd been pursuing and in doing so preserve her positive legacy?

[Ozyhibby]

Reading between the lines it would appear that she wouldn't be sad to abandon the National Care Service, at least in the way it has been mooted so far. Thank goodness for that.

Also talks of an independent inquiry into how we operate the NHS, short-, medium- and long-term. I've said too many times on here that there is a desperate need for this approach, similar to the Royal Commissions we had in the seventies. But, and it is a big but, there is no point looking at health care without looking at social care. And there is no point looking at health and social care without considering housing, education and the national workforce. And there is no point looking at all those if it doesn't recognise localism and communities of place. Still, it's a positive noise.

If she could row back on things like the oil and gas then I would like her more still.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/kate-forbes-pledges-to-raise-minimum-pay-for-care-workers-to-ps15-an-hour-4046730

More on this. Definitely seems to be more policy coming from Forbes than Yousaf.


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[Hibs4185]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/kate-forbes-pledges-to-raise-minimum-pay-for-care-workers-to-ps15-an-hour-4046730

More on this. Definitely seems to be more policy coming from Forbes than Yousaf.


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This policy is a no brainer. Something like 60% of people in hospital are ready to be discharged but they can’t due to lack of social care.

Yes it will cost more to pay carriers but there will be a massive knock on effect for the NHS if they can recruit more carers to get people out of hospital.

My dad has carers in the borders previously but when we moved he couldn’t get any help. The carers were all leaving to join agencies where they got more money and much better hours. The council provided carers were working 14 hour shifts for peanuts. No wonder carers were leaving in droves

[He's here!]

Is Sturgeon's legacy being trashed?

Or is there an acknowledgment that whilst she got an awful lot right she got the odd thing wrong, the things she got wrong were increasing in number towards the end and there is now an opportunity for a fresh start, to ditch the unpopular and plain stupid policies she'd been pursuing and in doing so preserve her positive legacy?

What positive legacy?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64817413?at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=7230D5C2-B854-11ED-A6BA-3BEF4449DBD2&at_medium=social&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial

National care service law postponed until after leadership election.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64817413?at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=7230D5C2-B854-11ED-A6BA-3BEF4449DBD2&at_medium=social&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial

National care service law postponed until after leadership election.


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A positive step. The language from Forbes and her campaign manager are enough for me to infer that they have no intention of proceeding with a NCS as originally envisaged.

[marinello59]

Is Sturgeon's legacy being trashed?

Or is there an acknowledgment that whilst she got an awful lot right she got the odd thing wrong, the things she got wrong were increasing in number towards the end and there is now an opportunity for a fresh start, to ditch the unpopular and plain stupid policies she'd been pursuing and in doing so preserve her positive legacy?

I did think I would be picked up on the trashed comment. :greengrin Maybe a bit OTT but Forbes and Regan seem happy to change tack fairly rapidly on a number of things.

[Ozyhibby]

I did think I would be picked up on the trashed comment. :greengrin Maybe a bit OTT but Forbes and Regan seem happy to change tack fairly rapidly on a number of things.

I think Forbes wants to change tack, I’m not convinced Regan doesn’t want to bring down the whole house.
Forbes appears to have well thought out proposals so far. Yousaf wants to just carry on as if nothing happened. Regan wants the return of Salmond.
That’s how it appears to me so far.


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[superfurryhibby]

This policy is a no brainer. Something like 60% of people in hospital are ready to be discharged but they can’t due to lack of social care.

Yes it will cost more to pay carriers but there will be a massive knock on effect for the NHS if they can recruit more carers to get people out of hospital.

My dad has carers in the borders previously but when we moved he couldn’t get any help. The carers were all leaving to join agencies where they got more money and much better hours. The council provided carers were working 14 hour shifts for peanuts. No wonder carers were leaving in droves

The council workers will have better terms and conditions, more job security and a better pension scheme, but yes, you're totally right that social care is in crisis and the effects of delayed discharges are costly for the stretched to the limits NHS in Scotland.

The whole agency thing. What a ****** farce. They don't need to register if they only provide social care workers (not nurses). There are loads of them started up in the past few years, trying to take advantage of the market since Covid made the already perilous situation into crisis.

Whatever the answer is for Scotland's social care sector, bringing in people from Africa and India to do work that the native populace have declined to fill is an abomination.

Maybe if we did recognise that these staff are also essential frontline workers and paid them a wage more appropriate to the vital work they do, then we have a chance. Standards need driven up the way, plugging the gap by importing people from much poorer countries, (often totally unskilled and inexperienced) is just compounding the issue.

Be interesting to hear what the candidates say about the future of social care. It's such an important question and effects us all, one way or another, sooner or later.

[Hibs4185]

The council workers will have better terms and conditions, more job security and a better pension scheme, but yes, you're totally right that social care is in crisis and the effects of delayed discharges are costly for the stretched to the limits NHS in Scotland.

The whole agency thing. What a ****** farce. They don't need to register if they only provide social care workers (not nurses). There are loads of them started up in the past few years, trying to take advantage of the market since Covid made the already perilous situation into crisis.

Whatever the answer is for Scotland's social care sector, bringing in people from Africa and India to do work that the native populace have declined to fill is an abomination.

Maybe if we did recognise that these staff are also essential frontline workers and paid them a wage more appropriate to the vital work they do, then we have a chance. Standards need driven up the way, plugging the gap by importing people from much poorer countries, (often totally unskilled and inexperienced) is just compounding the issue.

Be interesting to hear what the candidates say about the future of social care. It's such an important question and effects us all, one way or another, sooner or later.

In my experience in the Borders, it was the council carers who were the worst paid with the worst conditions.

SB Cares is the provider for the council. Staff starting at 7am and finishing at 10pm.

It is a vicious circle because many leave to become self employed or work for agencies but this then creates a lack of capacity for the council. As a result, they offer a direct payment where you can hire your own carers.

Who do you hire? The old council carers who are now self employed. But now those carers get paid £17 an hour and can pick and choose their hours.

I read a piece by a consultant who was leaving the NHS after 30 years and he said it was the exact same problem with nurses that was causing the biggest issues. Leaving to work for agencies where they got better money and could choose their hours.

If nurses and carriers had better terms and conditions, predominantly working hours it would cure a lot of problems. I can’t see why the government to change nurses to 8 hour shifts and have 3 shifts a day. Surely it wouldn’t cost much more and people would be far happier

[Kato]

In my experience in the Borders, it was the council carers who were the worst paid with the worst conditions.

SB Cares is the provider for the council. Staff starting at 7am and finishing at 10pm.

It is a vicious circle because many leave to become self employed or work for agencies but this then creates a lack of capacity for the council. As a result, they offer a direct payment where you can hire your own carers.

Who do you hire? The old council carers who are now self employed. But now those carers get paid £17 an hour and can pick and choose their hours.

I read a piece by a consultant who was leaving the NHS after 30 years and he said it was the exact same problem with nurses that was causing the biggest issues. Leaving to work for agencies where they got better money and could choose their hours.

If nurses and carriers had better terms and conditions, predominantly working hours it would cure a lot of problems. I can’t see why the government to change nurses to 8 hour shifts and have 3 shifts a day. Surely it wouldn’t cost much more and people would be far happierNurses and Doctors leaving the NHS to work in the private sector only to find themselves covering shifts in the NHS is the whole point of the Tory approach.

There is nothing to be fixed as far as they are concerned.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Emma harper says she's a specialist on parliamentary policy and gdpr on her LinkedIn 🙄

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/status/1630999241979035667

@PeterAdamSmith
Caught emailing SNP members on the party email system, urging them to vote for Humza Yousaf as next leader,
@EmmaHarperMSP
has offered an apology to all candidates.

The SNP says “Email privileges provided to elected representatives cannot be used for this purpose.”
@itvnews

[WhileTheChief..]

Is anyone watching the hustings on YouTube just now or sticking with the FA Cup?!!

Edit- here it is for those interested, starts about 15 mins in. Also said there will be TV debates, 3 i think.


https://www.youtube.com/live/cdBKjVruT9E?feature=share

[marinello59]

Is anyone watching the hustings on YouTube just now or sticking with the FA Cup?!!

Edit- here it is for those interested, starts about 15 mins in. Also said there will be TV debates, 3 i think.


https://www.youtube.com/live/cdBKjVruT9E?feature=share

I watched a fair bit of it. It looks like a two horse race to me, Regan is poor beyond belief.

[Ozyhibby]

I watched a fair bit of it. It looks like a two horse race to me, Regan is poor beyond belief.

Listened but didn’t watch. I agree, Regan hasn’t a chance. Forbes will be happy as questions barely touched on social issues. And she handled her questions well. Yousaf was ok as well but a bit Nick clegg with all the saying peoples names back to them.


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[marinello59]

Listened but didn’t watch. I agree, Regan hasn’t a chance. Forbes will be happy as questions barely touched on social issues. And she handled her questions well. Yousaf was ok as well but a bit Nick clegg with all the saying peoples names back to them.


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That’s it, Nick Clegg. I knew he reminded me of someone. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Ash Regan says Scotland like other nations could have a new currency set up in months, Yousaf counters that its not credible

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2023-03-01/snp-candidate-scotland-would-have-own-currency-within-months-of-independence

[grunt]

Ash Regan says Scotland like other nations could have a new currency set up in months, Yousaf counters that its not credible
Shades of Truss and Sunak.

[Stairway 2 7]

Shades of Truss and Sunak.

She was maybe daft saying months but I'm sure whatever option we chose would be fine, every other nation that got its independence managed

[One Day Soon]

She was maybe daft saying months but I'm sure whatever option we chose would be fine, every other nation that got its independence managed


Setting up a new currency would be relatively simple. Trying to sustain it in the open market with the economic and public finances consequences that would immediately follow are the issue.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ash Regan says Scotland like other nations could have a new currency set up in months, Yousaf counters that its not credible

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2023-03-01/snp-candidate-scotland-would-have-own-currency-within-months-of-independence

Forbes has her faith, Yousaf his, but Regan's higher power clearly transcends both of theirs :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Setting up a new currency would be relatively simple. Trying to sustain it in the open market with the economic and public finances consequences that would immediately follow are the issue.

Much smaller economies than ours manage not to bad

[Ozyhibby]

Much smaller economies than ours manage not to bad

The fact we have a balance of trade surplus would help make sure it didn’t devalue at least.


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[James310]

The fact we have a balance of trade surplus would help make sure it didn’t devalue at least.


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Except we don't.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/348541/scotland-net-trade/#:~:text=In%202021%20exports%20from%20Scotland,of% 20negative%2019%20billion%20pounds.

I thought we were supposed to be dealing in facts, that's what Kate Forbes was saying.

[One Day Soon]

Much smaller economies than ours manage not to bad


Wait a minute, I thought Hibrandenburg had ruled out doing comparisons with other countries...:wink:

The issue isn't the size of your economy per se, it is your ability to defend your currency from speculation and the high % cost of your borrowing if you are perceived as being high risk and with a weak currency. With little to no central reserves, no track record of fiscal strength/responsibility to point to and a £15 billion structural deficit between what we raise in taxation and what we spend on services a new Scottish currency would be extremely vulnerable in the money markets.

There's a reason why many SNP figures have kept a distance from this approach and instead opted for either Sterlingisation or fudging the whole issue.

[Ozyhibby]

Wait a minute, I thought Hibrandenburg had ruled out doing comparisons with other countries...:wink:

The issue isn't the size of your economy per se, it is your ability to defend your currency from speculation and the high % cost of your borrowing if you are perceived as being high risk and with a weak currency. With little to no central reserves, no track record of fiscal strength/responsibility to point to and a £15 billion structural deficit between what we raise in taxation and what we spend on services a new Scottish currency would be extremely vulnerable in the money markets.

There's a reason why many SNP figures have kept a distance from this approach and instead opted for either Sterlingisation or fudging the whole issue.

Wouldn’t a new Scottish central bank have 10% (or so) of the Bank of Englands reserves? Which would be the right amount a country our size would need?


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[One Day Soon]

Wouldn’t a new Scottish central bank have 10% (or so) of the Bank of Englands reserves? Which would be the right amount a country our size would need?


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About £15bn according to Mark Carney back in 2014 just before the Referendum. The problem is that he also indicated the amount we actually likely would need would be between 25% and over 100% of GDP if we were using the £. GDP back then was between roughly £100bn and £140bn. If we weren't using the £ then we would need a lot more because we would be trying to defend both a brand new currency and central bank with no track record from speculators. You only have to look at what money markets did to the UK economy and public finances during the very short lived Truss/Kwarteng experiment when they didn't believe the sums added up to see how weak individual governments are in the face of those forces scenting blood.

A£15bn one-off separation dowry is one thing, topping it up thereafter ourselves, particularly in the face of currency speculation, would pose quite the challenge to an economy with a £15bn deficit. Especially since a first call on public finances from day one would need to be to either slash public spending or dramatically raise taxes - or both - just to stand still as we are now on public services etc.

[greenginger]

I
Wouldn’t a new Scottish central bank have 10% (or so) of the Bank of Englands reserves? Which would be the right amount a country our size would need?




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Not forgetting the 10% ( or so ) of the National Debt of course.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I


Not forgetting the 10% ( or so ) of the National Debt of course.

The argument that leaving the UK is no longer economically viable due to Westminster weakening Scotland's economic position isn't a strong one.

[grunt]

A £15bn one-off separation dowry is one thing, topping it up thereafter ourselves, particularly in the face of currency speculation, would pose quite the challenge to an economy with a £15bn deficit. Especially since a first call on public finances from day one would need to be to either slash public spending or dramatically raise taxes - or both - just to stand still as we are now on public services etc.
How do other countries ever manage to become independent?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/ballotboxscot/status/1631294925043007491?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Interesting take on holding a new Holyrood election.


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[James310]

How do other countries ever manage to become independent?

I can't think of any that are in a similar situation to Scotland that have. Apart from Ireland 100 years ago nobody has left the United Kingdom. Plenty have left the British Empire but that's completely different, none of them shared things like the Central Bank, currency, a land border, shared institutions like HMRC and Social Security etc and many more.

It would be something new, an experiment. By all means it could happen but I don't see any credible plans that it will. Look at devolving something like just Social Security, it's cost close to a billion pounds and taken years and years. Imagine that across a whole host of other services. I am not saying it's impossible but it's not easy as well.

I look forward to Kate Forbes facts that she was promising if she wins.

[One Day Soon]

How do other countries ever manage to become independent?


At the risk of repeating myself, Hibrandenburg's argument is that we focus solely on Scotland rather than look at other countries.

[One Day Soon]

The argument that leaving the UK is no longer economically viable due to Westminster weakening Scotland's economic position isn't a strong one.

I've read this several times but I'm not quite sure what you are saying?

[Stairway 2 7]

I can't think of any that are in a similar situation to Scotland that have. Apart from Ireland 100 years ago nobody has left the United Kingdom. Plenty have left the British Empire but that's completely different, none of them shared things like the Central Bank, currency, a land border, shared institutions like HMRC and Social Security etc and many more.

It would be something new, an experiment. By all means it could happen but I don't see any credible plans that it will. Look at devolving something like just Social Security, it's cost close to a billion pounds and taken years and years. Imagine that across a whole host of other services. I am not saying it's impossible but it's not easy as well.

I look forward to Kate Forbes facts that she was promising if she wins.

Lots of European nations have broken up like Yugoslavia or the nations that formed the Soviet Union that were pretty much controlled by Moscow.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/ballotboxscot/status/1631294925043007491?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Interesting take on holding a new Holyrood election.


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An election in 23 is far enough away to 26, nations call snap elections all the time without bother. Poor excuse. I noticed Yousaf said yesterday there shouldn't be one, absolutely hypocritical

[James310]

Lots of European nations have broken up like Yugoslavia or the nations that formed the Soviet Union that were pretty much controlled by Moscow.

None of that was voluntarily, it was because of external and often extreme events like war.

I can't think of anyone that has voluntarily left a bigger partner and shares characteristics like Scotland. It would be brand new.

I am hoping the new leader presents us with some new plans. The last bunch of leaflets never really did it.

[Stairway 2 7]

None of that was voluntarily, it was because of external and often extreme events like war.

I can't think of anyone that has voluntarily left a bigger partner and shares characteristics like Scotland. It would be brand new.

I am hoping the new leader presents us with some new plans. The last bunch of leaflets never really did it.

Your parameters are ridiculous

It was voluntarily from almost all the Eastern European nations as soon as the opportunity arose. All were completely connected but all have set up independent systems and flourished

[grunt]

It would be something new, an experiment.
Congratulations! You've sold me on the idea. Let's just do it! I like new things.

[James310]

Congratulations! You've sold me on the idea. Let's just do it! I like new things.

Brexit was new.

[James310]

Your parameters are ridiculous

It was voluntarily from almost all the Eastern European nations as soon as the opportunity arose. All were completely connected but all have set up independent systems and flourished

How did the opportunity arise?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1631312392104673284?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Swinney standing down as well so there will need to be a new deputy FM.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

I've read this several times but I'm not quite sure what you are saying?

If the argument against Scottish Independence is that Scotland's total sum of it's share of debt from UK Government fiscal mismanagement is too much to take on, it's really not a good argument.

It seems the longer we remain in the UK, the weaker our economic position to leave becomes.

[Stairway 2 7]

How did the opportunity arise?

Through the public being Feb up of being in the union. Poland or Lithuania have more parallels than differences with our situation. There were probably people in Warsaw decrying the Gdansk protests, saying they couldn't do it on their o

[Ozyhibby]

If the argument against Scottish Independence is that Scotland's total sum of it's share of debt from UK Government fiscal mismanagement is too much to take on, it's really not a good argument.

It seems the longer we remain in the UK, the weaker our economic position to leave becomes.

We are falling further and further behind our neighbours every day. They don’t deny it anymore.


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[James310]

If the argument against Scottish Independence is that Scotland's total sum of it's share of debt from UK Government fiscal mismanagement is too much to take on, it's really not a good argument.

It seems the longer we remain in the UK, the weaker our economic position to leave becomes.

Won't it be stronger at the next set of GERs because of the significant jump in oil revenues? The deficit will be down compared to last year and it will definitely show a much stronger position.

[archie]

We are falling further and further behind our neighbours every day. They don’t deny it anymore.


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I hesitate to ask this, but any evidence for your assertion? Particularly, what metrics are you using?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Won't it be stronger at the next set of GERs because of the significant jump in oil revenues? The deficit will be down compared to last year and it will definitely show a much stronger position.

That simply isn't possible James. The oil wells are drying up and oil and gas are a burden on Scotland remember?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDQasxKWEA0uyti?format=jpg&name=large

[James310]

Through the public being Feb up of being in the union. Poland or Lithuania have more parallels than differences with our situation. There were probably people in Warsaw decrying the Gdansk protests, saying they couldn't do it on their o

So if the people of Scotland were fed up they would have voted to leave the UK, they never they voted to remain. Polls suggest they would vote to remain in the UK still as well.

I don't see any modern day comparisons where a country has voluntarily extracted itself from one of the biggest economies in the world. Especially one that shares so much with the partner it is looking to leave.

But I look forward to the new leader setting out their new plans, we must be on version 30 now or something, seems like a new initiative is rolled out every few months now. I wonder if the remaining papers due on Independence will still be published.

[Stairway 2 7]

So if the people of Scotland were fed up they would have voted to leave the UK, they never they voted to remain. Polls suggest they would vote to remain in the UK still as well.

I don't see any modern day comparisons where a country has voluntarily extracted itself from one of the biggest economies in the world. Especially one that shares so much with the partner it is looking to leave.

But I look forward to the new leader setting out their new plans, we must be on version 30 now or something, seems like a new initiative is rolled out every few months now. I wonder if the remaining papers due on Independence will still be published.

Your changing the discussion to Scotland never voted, I never said they did. But if they did they would have dozens of examples to follow.

[James310]

That simply isn't possible James. The oil wells are drying up and oil and gas are a burden on Scotland remember?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDQasxKWEA0uyti?format=jpg&name=large

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-why-the-uk-will-not-run-out-of-oil-coal-or-gas-in-five-years/

[James310]

Your changing the discussion to Scotland never voted, I never said they did. But if they did they would have dozens of examples to follow.

We will just agree to disagree, my argument is we’d be the first in the modern era to implement economic partition in this way. Such a transition has never been done - there are no case studies. The transition is a highly risky experiment.

[grunt]

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-why-the-uk-will-not-run-out-of-oil-coal-or-gas-in-five-years/Here we are back to talking about BBC bias again. How much coverage did the fact check get as opposed to the bitter together scare stories about the demise of oil & gas? Don't bother answering.

[grunt]

We will just agree to disagree, my argument is we’d be the first in the modern era to implement economic partition in this way. Such a transition has never been done - there are no case studies. The transition is a highly risky experiment.How exciting! We get to be the first! Looking forward to it.

[Stairway 2 7]

We will just agree to disagree, my argument is we’d be the first in the modern era to implement economic partition in this way. Such a transition has never been done - there are no case studies. The transition is a highly risky experiment.

I agree we will be the first to leave the UK in recent years. On the other hand there are dozens of countries that have been in either unions of nations or one nation, that have separated and set up their own systems and currencies without issue

[archie]

Your changing the discussion to Scotland never voted, I never said they did. But if they did they would have dozens of examples to follow.

I think we could make a go of independence. The question is whether it would be worth the pain we'd have to go through to get to the end point. I don't understand why Brexit, which was withdrawing from an international treaty is seen as unimaginable hell, but Scexit would be no big deal. People cite the Czech and Slovack republics. Their currency deal lasted 60 days before it collapsed. Did they get over it? Yes. Was their pain? Certainly.

[archie]

I agree we will be the first to leave the UK in recent years. On the other hand there are dozens of countries that have been in either unions of nations or one nation, that have separated and set up their own systems and currencies without issue

Dozens?

[Stairway 2 7]

Dozens?

Yes but it depends on cut off, post war, cold War?

[Stairway 2 7]

I think we could make a go of independence. The question is whether it would be worth the pain we'd have to go through to get to the end point. I don't understand why Brexit, which was withdrawing from an international treaty is seen as unimaginable hell, but Scexit would be no big deal. People cite the Czech and Slovack republics. Their currency deal lasted 60 days before it collapsed. Did they get over it? Yes. Was their pain? Certainly.

I'm not saying things would be immediately better I'm sure they wouldn't, but yes of course we could do it. For heavens sake even countries ravaged by war recently have grown to be strong countries.

The reason I want independence is after initial pain I believe we will be a stronger and most importantly fairer country than the status quo of labour and tories governments

[archie]

Yes but it depends on cut off, post war, cold War?

Dozens leaving unions? I guess it very much depends on your definition of a union.

[archie]

I'm not saying things would be immediately better I'm sure they wouldn't, but yes of course we could do it. For heavens sake even countries ravaged by war recently have grown to be strong countries.

The reason I want independence is after initial pain I believe we will be a stronger and most importantly fairer country than the status quo of labour and tories governments

I agree we could do it, but stronger in what way? As for fairer, what does that even mean?

[James310]

I agree we will be the first to leave the UK in recent years. On the other hand there are dozens of countries that have been in either unions of nations or one nation, that have separated and set up their own systems and currencies without issue

In recent years? Only Ireland has left the UK 100 years ago and because of civil war.

[Stairway 2 7]

In recent years? Only Ireland has left the UK 100 years ago and because of civil war.

So your looking for only countries that left the uk brilliant

[Stairway 2 7]

I agree we could do it, but stronger in what way? As for fairer, what does that even mean?

Fairer as the uk has some of the worst financial inequality in Europe and a circle of right wing governments, I'm confident this would change in indi Scotland

[archie]

Fairer as the uk has some of the worst financial inequality in Europe and a circle of right wing governments, I'm confident this would change in indi Scotland

Why?

[James310]

Here we are back to talking about BBC bias again. How much coverage did the fact check get as opposed to the bitter together scare stories about the demise of oil & gas? Don't bother answering.

It wasn't Better Together, it was a group of researchers. I don't recall anyone from BT saying oil was running out in 5 years.

But here we go again going back on the same old arguments again and again. Maybe it's time to move on?

Who has impressed you the most of the candidates seeing as what this thread is about? We hear actually very little about what people actually think and who they will vote for.

[Ozyhibby]

So your looking for only countries that left the uk brilliant

Wish we were doing as well as Ireland.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Why?

Because I believe left wing governments are fairer than right wing. Scotland is more left wing and liberal than ruk in general, I'm sure our governments will show that.

[James310]

Wish we were doing as well as Ireland.


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Again the same old arguments, don't you think if these arguments were working they would have actually worked by now? As for Ireland we all know.why their GDP is so inflated, and they remain a tax haven as well.

If the case for Independence is always going to be look at X, Y and Z and draw some graphs then I suggest it won't go anywhere.

[James310]

Because I believe left wing governments are fairer than right wing. Scotland is more left wing and liberal than ruk in general, I'm sure our governments will show that.

Left wing governments led by Kate Forbes who is more Tory than some Tories.....

Obviously we wait to see if she wins.

[Zambernardi1875]

Again the same old arguments, don't you think if these arguments were working they would have actually worked by now? As for Ireland we all know.why their GDP is so inflated, and they remain a tax haven as well.

If the case for Independence is always going to be look at X, Y and Z and draw some graphs then I suggest it won't go anywhere.

And the case for staying in the union is always “look at dem polls”

[Stairway 2 7]

Left wing governments led by Kate Forbes who is more Tory than some Tories.....

Obviously we wait to see if she wins.

Kate forbes won't be the leader of the first voted independent government I'll bet my house on that. She also isn't more right wing than some tories on most matters. She wants £15 an hour for care workers so that ticks off almost all tories from the list.

[weecounty hibby]

We will just agree to disagree, my argument is we’d be the first in the modern era to implement economic partition in this way. Such a transition has never been done - there are no case studies. The transition is a highly risky experiment.
You are an absolute hoot!! You have managed to take us from independence, to separatism and now into partition. And you were one of the folk greetin about certain terms for unionists. Incredibly unionist being one of them

[James310]

You are an absolute hoot!! You have managed to take us from independence, to separatism and now into partition. And you were one of the folk greetin about certain terms for unionists. Incredibly unionist being one of them

I don't think I am calling you or anyone else anything here, just describing the process.

[James310]

And the case for staying in the union is always “look at dem polls”

I guess that's changed recently, it now look at dem SNP candidates.

[archie]

Because I believe left wing governments are fairer than right wing. Scotland is more left wing and liberal than ruk in general, I'm sure our governments will show that.

I think tbh there's a lot of magical thinking there. I see what you're saying about voting for left wingish parties (mostly Labour) but I'd be really interested to know why you think Scotland is more Liberal. None of the social attitudes surveys show much difference tbh.

And more generally, I'm sceptical that simply voting for things makes change happen. The globalised economy rules with a pretty iron discipline. Some on here believe that financiers will always back the Tories. But look at Liz Truss. Her magical thinking was her downfall. I'd hate it to be ours.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your parameters are ridiculous

It was voluntarily from almost all the Eastern European nations as soon as the opportunity arose. All were completely connected but all have set up independent systems and flourished

Not forgetting the Dissolution of Czechoslovakia


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia


The velvet revolution.

[archie]

Not forgetting the Dissolution of Czechoslovakia


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia


The velvet revolution.

This is an interesting assessment. https://www.economicsobservatory.com/scottish-independence-what-lessons-from-the-break-up-of-czechoslovakia Worth noting that the country had only existed for 74 years and had two extended periods of occupation.

[One Day Soon]

Because I believe left wing governments are fairer than right wing. Scotland is more left wing and liberal than ruk in general, I'm sure our governments will show that.

Not according to the social surveys evidence it isn't.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think tbh there's a lot of magical thinking there. I see what you're saying about voting for left wingish parties (mostly Labour) but I'd be really interested to know why you think Scotland is more Liberal. None of the social attitudes surveys show much difference tbh.

And more generally, I'm sceptical that simply voting for things makes change happen. The globalised economy rules with a pretty iron discipline. Some on here believe that financiers will always back the Tories. But look at Liz Truss. Her magical thinking was her downfall. I'd hate it to be ours.

There isn't huge difference but there is difference that shake a country dramatically, for example wanting more immigration in the country and wanting to be fully in Europe. Greater than that is we wouldn't vote the tories in especially with the under 40s now not moving to the right. More often than not uk is under the tories, changing that changes everything

[Stairway 2 7]

Not according to the social surveys evidence it isn't.

I've not seen a survey that shows we aren't more likely to vote left wing governments, the opposite in fact. Every survey on race and immigration I've seen shows us more in favour also

[archie]

I've not seen a survey that shows we aren't more likely to vote left wing governments, the opposite in fact. Every survey on race and immigration I've seen shows us more in favour also

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2020/10/is-scotland-more-egalitarian-than-england/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46457341

[Ozyhibby]

You can take all the surveys you want, the Tories haven’t won in Scotland since the 50’s.


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[grunt]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2020/10/is-scotland-more-egalitarian-than-england/The John Curtice document seems to have Scotland more liberal than England in just about every category.

[archie]

The John Curtice document seems to have Scotland more liberal than England in just about every category.

This is from the article:

'In short, the image that emerges from the research is that Scotland is far from being at odds with England in its dislike of inequality and is only a little more inclined to do something about it. If so, this raises interesting questions about the extent to which the temper of public opinion in an independent Scotland would prove more supportive of steps to reduce inequality than is public opinion across the UK now.'

[archie]

You can take all the surveys you want, the Tories haven’t won in Scotland since the 50’s.


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Sure, but it's a significant piece of work I'm citing.

[marinello59]

Salmond saying that Yousaf did miss the gay marriage vote because of religious pressure. One of them is lying.

[James310]

I would like to see Scotland compared to some EU countries where racism is a huge problem, but sure we have more in common with our European neighbours than our next door neighbours.

[CropleyWasGod]

Salmond saying that Yousaf did miss the gay marriage vote because of religious pressure. One of them is lying.

He also says "I really don't have a dog in this race"

Ash nonsense :greengrin

[marinello59]

He also says "I really don't have a dog in this race"

Ash nonsense :greengrin

That made me laugh as well. Aye, right. :greengrin

[grunt]

This is from the article:

'In short, the image that emerges from the research is that Scotland is far from being at odds with England in its dislike of inequality and is only a little more inclined to do something about it. If so, this raises interesting questions about the extent to which the temper of public opinion in an independent Scotland would prove more supportive of steps to reduce inequality than is public opinion across the UK now.'
That's his words and I acknowledge that he's the expert. But - as I said - in almost every case we're more liberal than England.

How fair or unfair do you think the income distribution is in Britain?

https://bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39403/spotlight.jpg?width=500&height=266.14583333333337

[grunt]

This is from the article:

'In short, the image that emerges from the research is that Scotland is far from being at odds with England in its dislike of inequality and is only a little more inclined to do something about it. If so, this raises interesting questions about the extent to which the temper of public opinion in an independent Scotland would prove more supportive of steps to reduce inequality than is public opinion across the UK now.'Maybe the English fascists just make more noise.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2020/10/is-scotland-more-egalitarian-than-england/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46457341

In both were slightly more liberal. But that doesn't tell the story, the story is how these views are represented in parliament and its all to do with fptp voting. Fptp enables the tories to play to one section of society and still get in. There is no way they get a majority in Scotland so the tories in Scotland will have to be more liberal to have a chance of power, not that they will get in power

[archie]

Maybe the English fascists just make more noise.

Possibly - or you are more sensitised to seeing it in England

[archie]

In both were slightly more liberal. But that doesn't tell the story, the story is how these views are represented in parliament and its all to do with fptp voting. Fptp enables the tories to play to one section of society and still get in. There is no way they get a majority in Scotland so the tories in Scotland will have to be more liberal to have a chance of power, not that they will get in power

I get the bit about Tories not winning here, but I don't think the evidence supports your assertion that we are more liberal.

[Stairway 2 7]

I get the bit about Tories not winning here, but I don't think the evidence supports your assertion that we are more liberal.

The biggest surveys are elections/referendums look at the brexit vote look at the party's we vote for. The point is though unless we change fptp in the uk, the people with the more right wing views won't stop being enabled

[Stairway 2 7]

Salmond saying that Yousaf did miss the gay marriage vote because of religious pressure. One of them is lying.

All the papers going for it, so with a few people saying it I'm sure some mud will stick regardless. I'm sure both leading candidates will want to change the subject now

[archie]

The biggest surveys are elections/referendums look at the brexit vote look at the party's we vote for. The point is though unless we change fptp in the uk, the people with the more right wing views won't stop being enabled

I think there is a discussion to be had about FPTP but I do have reservations about what changes we make. It's the same hear. Tories, Lib Dems and Labour got more votes than the SNP, but the SNP got 48 seats to the other parties 11. I think empowering small parties is good, but as we see across Europe, small parties can be the tail wagging the dog. But as you suggest, it's a discussion worth having.

[Hibrandenburg]

You can take all the surveys you want, the Tories haven’t won in Scotland since the 50’s.


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Sssht, opinion polls where one side constantly polls more than 60% is how we should read the political climate.

[James310]

Sssht, opinion polls where one side constantly polls more than 60% is how we should read the political climate.

According to Humza you are correct. 🤣 That's his plan, stolen from here perhaps. 🤣 Oh and this SNP MSP as well. 🤣

https://twitter.com/ThomasCArthur/status/1629799977827418114?s=20

8. The overall ceiling of support for independence is, in my view, over 60%. However, this potential support can only be realised through improving perceptions of devolved governing and with a clear prospectus that reasonable opponents of independence could regard as credible.

It's encouraging to see them coming around to this way of thinking.

[archie]

Sssht, opinion polls where one side constantly polls more than 60% is how we should read the political climate.

The Social Attitudes Survey isn't an opinion poll in that sense.

[Skol]

Ash Regan says Scotland like other nations could have a new currency set up in months, Yousaf counters that its not credible

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2023-03-01/snp-candidate-scotland-would-have-own-currency-within-months-of-independence

Too wee. Too small. humza the yoon.

[Skol]

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1631312392104673284?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Swinney standing down as well so there will need to be a new deputy FM.


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I thought brown was the deputy

[Ozyhibby]

I thought brown was the deputy

Not sure how it works but think Brown has a party role and Swinney is deputy FM.


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[One Day Soon]

Not sure how it works but think Brown has a party role and Swinney is deputy FM.


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That’s exactly how it works. Swinney leaving is arguably more damaging than Sturgeon resigning.

[grunt]

That’s exactly how it works. Swinney leaving is arguably more damaging than Sturgeon resigning.

You're going to have to explain that one for me.

[Ozyhibby]

You're going to have to explain that one for me.

Keep hearing how useless he is but now he’s going it’s a massive disaster for the SNP.[emoji23]


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[Hibrandenburg]

You're going to have to explain that one for me.

Me too, on the one hand he's a cerebrally inadequate bumbling fool but him stepping down is a major blow. How does that work?

[archie]

Me too, on the one hand he's a cerebrally inadequate bumbling fool but him stepping down is a major blow. How does that work?

I think he is a genuine bloke who works hard behind the scenes and has provided great service to the SNP. I think how much he was relied on will become clear. Unfortunately his public personna was not inspiring. It is just one of those things.

[He's here!]

I think he is a genuine bloke who works hard behind the scenes and has provided great service to the SNP. I think how much he was relied on will become clear. Unfortunately his public personna was not inspiring. It is just one of those things.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62051702

'Why Sturgeon always sent for Swinney'.

[makaveli1875]

Keep hearing how useless he is but now he’s going it’s a massive disaster for the SNP.[emoji23]


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He useless but he's 1 of their top guys so it's a bit of a disaster because his replacement will be even more useless

[Hiber-nation]

He useless but he's 1 of their top guys so it's a bit of a disaster because his replacement will be even more useless

He was a very good Finance Minister who was well respected for that role.

[One Day Soon]

You're going to have to explain that one for me.


She did front of house but he made the trains run on time - to the extent that they did.

They have no one else as experienced or as competent as him for that role. His reputational undoing was largely Sturgeon's fault. She took her most toxic brief (education) and decided to fix it by putting her best minister in charge of it. Unfortunately with something as long term as education the reality is that the issue generally ends up toxifying the minister rather than the minister fixing the issue. There was a widespread expectation that he would hang on for another year in his current role to help the new FM bed in and give some degree of stability, the fact that he isn't is not good news for them.

[Berwickhibby]

I don’t really have a dog in this fight and find it highly amusing 🍿🍿🍿 however if I was entitled to vote it would be spoiled as the three standing are utter dug ***** 💩

[archie]

I don’t really have a dog in this fight and find it highly amusing 🍿🍿🍿 however if I was entitled to vote it would be spoiled as the three standing are utter dug ***** 💩

Is that really necessary? By all means critique them, but they are people.

[Dalianwanda]

I don’t really have a dog in this fight and find it highly amusing 🍿🍿🍿 however if I was entitled to vote it would be spoiled as the three standing are utter dug ***** 💩

Although I cant vote at the moment........My heart sinks when I see whats on offer...Im always going to vote for them for independence but in terms of their views on how Scotland should be run &/or their competency to lead Im not so sure...

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I don’t really have a dog in this fight and find it highly amusing 🍿🍿🍿 however if I was entitled to vote it would be spoiled as the three standing are utter dug ***** 💩

Yet it doesn't matter which one wins. They'll continue to mop the floor with the laughing stock of an opposition.

[marinello59]

Although I cant vote at the moment........My heart sinks when I see whats on offer...Im always going to vote for them for independence but in terms of their views on how Scotland should be run &/or their competency to lead Im not so sure...

I think that a lot of those who only continued to back them because of Indy will be a bit more reluctant to lend the SNP their vote with any of these three leading them. They will continue to win elections for the foreseeable future but with a Labour victory at Westminster on the horizon I suspect they have peaked now and a period of relative decline will set in.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that a lot of those who only continued to back them because of Indy will be a bit more reluctant to lend the SNP their vote with any of these three leading them. They will continue to win elections for the foreseeable future but with a Labour victory at Westminster on the horizon I suspect they have peaked now and a period of relative decline will set in.

I remember all this chat when Salmond resigned.


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[marinello59]

I remember all this chat when Salmond resigned.


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Im not so sure there was. I'm not an SNP supporter but even I was pretty enthused by the prospect of Sturgeon becoming First Minister, I expected her to propel us towards Independence at a great rate of knots. I even lent my vote as requested. :greengrin
These three? I wouldn't lend them anything.

[grunt]

His reputational undoing was largely Sturgeon's fault. She took her most toxic brief (education) and decided to fix it by putting her best minister in charge of it.
You say that as if it's a bad idea.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230303/947304ba610a256727b5196e7f8e89a5.jpg

https://twitter.com/savanta_uk/status/1631692119785054208?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Close race so far.


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[greenlex]

Im not so sure there was. I'm not an SNP supporter but even I was pretty enthused by the prospect of Sturgeon becoming First Minister, I expected her to propel us towards Independence at a great rate of knots. I even lent my vote as requested. :greengrin
These three? I wouldn't lend them anything.
Where I am exactly. I’m not a member of the SNP nor particularly a fan to be honest. Pro Indy for sure. I’m totally saddened by the lack of quality in the ranks of government. It wouldn’t even matter who was running it to be honest. It’s only marginally better than the shambles in London masquerading as a UK government.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Im not so sure there was. I'm not an SNP supporter but even I was pretty enthused by the prospect of Sturgeon becoming First Minister, I expected her to propel us towards Independence at a great rate of knots. I even lent my vote as requested. :greengrin
These three? I wouldn't lend them anything.

Disagree. Labour will be a major disappointment in my opinion and will do nothing to sustain meaningful support in Scotland, even if they do reclaim 2nd place by hoovering up the tory vote.

The tories are full on Brexit, Starmer is committed to "making brexit work" and the pretendy pro-European Lib Dems are unsurprisingly nowhere to be seen. Every single constituency in Scotland voted to remain.

[Hibrandenburg]

Disagree. Labour will be a major disappointment in my opinion and will do nothing to sustain meaningful support in Scotland, even if they do reclaim 2nd place by hoovering up the tory vote.

The tories are full on Brexit, Starmer is committed to "making brexit work" and the pretendy pro-European Lib Dems are unsurprisingly nowhere to be seen. Every single constituency in Scotland voted to remain.

Whoever wins the SNP leadership will ram this home again and again and again. It's free votes for the SNP.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Whoever wins the SNP leadership will ram this home again and again and again. It's free votes for the SNP.

It's certainly what they should be doing. I liked Nicola Sturgeon, but it was clear that the Covid situation combined with the regular nonsense from the media was taking it's toll on her. She just didn't have the same fire about her. The next leader doesn't need to be anything special in my opinion, they just need to be hungry for it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm confident all three are so hopeless that we'll have to reopen this thread in a year. Think Robertson and others will go for it

[He's here!]

I think that a lot of those who only continued to back them because of Indy will be a bit more reluctant to lend the SNP their vote with any of these three leading them. They will continue to win elections for the foreseeable future but with a Labour victory at Westminster on the horizon I suspect they have peaked now and a period of relative decline will set in.

Unless the new FM calls a snap Holyrood election it's more than two years until the next one. Assuming Labour have assumed control at Westminster by then I can see the SNP struggling, especially, as you say, with such a weak looking set of potential successors to Sturgeon. There's a sense of implosion about the party.

[Ozyhibby]

Unless the new FM calls a snap Holyrood election it's more than two years until the next one. Assuming Labour have assumed control at Westminster by then I can see the SNP struggling, especially, as you say, with such a weak looking set of potential successors to Sturgeon. There's a sense of implosion about the party.

Been hearing that for years.[emoji849]


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[Mibbes Aye]

Been hearing that for years.[emoji849]


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The problem for the SNP (the party, not nationalists or pro-Indy) is exactly that. Years.

Every government of length eventually runs out of steam, often assisted by the irreconcilables becoming too prominent or external crises bringing it to a head . The Tories in 1964 after thirteen years, Labour in 1979 after 11of the 15 previous years (and let’s be honest, two of the other four were the TUC :greengrin), Tories again in 1997, Labour again in 2010, what looks like the Tories again in 2024.

Understandably the SNP benefit from being seen as a means to an end for some voters and that will cushion any fall they might face, but political gravity will exert its force ultimately and they have been around for a good while now.

What matters more is the bounce back. That probably explains the Savanta poll where the most popular response to the question of who should lead the party is ‘Don’t know’. I don’t think any one candidate captures the imagination. I suspect Forbes may have been a shoo-in before the religious stuff started getting attention.

[Ozyhibby]

The problem for the SNP (the party, not nationalists or pro-Indy) is exactly that. Years.

Every government of length eventually runs out of steam, often assisted by the irreconcilables becoming too prominent or external crises bringing it to a head . The Tories in 1964 after thirteen years, Labour in 1979 after 11of the 15 previous years (and let’s be honest, two of the other four were the TUC :greengrin), Tories again in 1997, Labour again in 2010, what looks like the Tories again in 2024.

Understandably the SNP benefit from being seen as a means to an end for some voters and that will cushion any fall they might face, but political gravity will exert its force ultimately and they have been around for a good while now.

What matters more is the bounce back. That probably explains the Savanta poll where the most popular response to the question of who should lead the party is ‘Don’t know’. I don’t think any one candidate captures the imagination. I suspect Forbes may have been a shoo-in before the religious stuff started getting attention.

Personally think Forbes will still win it. Even on that poll I would think she’ll get a decent amount of 2nd preferences from Regan. And as they all become a bit more well known over the next couple of weeks with the three TV debates, I think she will prove to be the better performer.
You are right about political gravity though and in that respect, having a reset under Forbes rather than carry on with Yousaf might be the best way forward.

Btw, I don’t think Labour in 2010 had actually ran out of steam, there was still a lot they could and did plan to do. They were just badly led by Brown. Fine politician and mind as he was back in the day, he was never a leader. A more self aware man might have worked that out by his age. A real shame because he achieved a lot as part of a project under a proper leader.


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[Mibbes Aye]

He was a very good Finance Minister who was well respected for that role.

Hmmmn.

Maybe yes, if you discount the Scottish Parliament who censured him for not being honest and transparent.

And maybe yes, if you discount the IFS who tore him apart for trying to say budget cuts were additional spending.

And maybe yes, if you discount councils and other public bodies who couldn’t comprehend why he insisted on telling them that giving them real-term cuts was actually a ‘flat cash’ settlement.

Though by comparison to his other work in SG that was maybe the least worst.

Didn’t he front up the named person policy? An absolute car-crash of an idea that managed to anger everyone affected by it and fortunately died a death before we recruited armies of new health visitors and guidance teachers to make it work.

And of course the exams fiasco - any situation where you are competing with Gavin Williamson to see how bad you are at your job should ring alarm bells from Stranraer to Sumburgh Head.

I thought he showed a lack of competence as a minister and escaped any real consequences either because he was an ally or a human shield for the FM, or maybe both. Teflon John indeed.

The flipside of all that is he generally seemed to carry himself with grace and civility. But while manners maketh the man, they don’t maketh a good minister.

[Mibbes Aye]

Personally think Forbes will still win it. Even on that poll I would think she’ll get a decent amount of 2nd preferences from Regan. And as they all become a bit more well known over the next couple of weeks with the three TV debates, I think she will prove to be the better performer.
You are right about political gravity though and in that respect, having a reset under Forbes rather than carry on with Yousaf might be the best way forward.

Btw, I don’t think Labour in 2010 had actually ran out of steam, there was still a lot they could and did plan to do. They were just badly led by Brown. Fine politician and mind as he was back in the day, he was never a leader. A more self aware man might have worked that out by his age. A real shame because he achieved a lot as part of a project under a proper leader.


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I am certain that I would prefer Forbes to win over the other two. That’s equally an endorsement of her and a rejection of the others. It’s still a bit vague with her, but she should and seems to understand Scotland is more than its cities, it has massive areas of rurality and remoteness and that’s why localism is essential.

As for Brown, you are right. He didn’t lead Labour to a wipe-out in 2010, they could just about have formed a grand coalition and got the numbers to propose a minority government. It wasn’t going to happen for a million reasons but not least of all because of Clegg ruling it out almost immediately and all the momentum was with Cameron.

As for his tenure, his ambition? Gordon Brown in government was about as close as it gets to Greek tragedy in modern politics, a story twenty-five centuries old and just as relevant now.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I am certain that I would prefer Forbes to win over the other two. That’s equally an endorsement of her and a rejection of the others. It’s still a bit vague with her, but she should and seems to understand Scotland is more than its cities, it has massive areas of rurality and remoteness and that’s why localism is essential.

As for Brown, you are right. He didn’t lead Labour to a wipe-out in 2010, they could just about have formed a grand coalition and got the numbers to propose a minority government. It wasn’t going to happen for a million reasons but not least of all because of Clegg ruling it out almost immediately and all the momentum was with Cameron.

As for his tenure, his ambition? Gordon Brown in government was about as close as it gets to Greek tragedy in modern politics, a story twenty-five centuries old and just as relevant now.
what's that based on, out of interest?

[Hiber-nation]

Hmmmn.

Maybe yes, if you discount the Scottish Parliament who censured him for not being honest and transparent.

And maybe yes, if you discount the IFS who tore him apart for trying to say budget cuts were additional spending.

And maybe yes, if you discount councils and other public bodies who couldn’t comprehend why he insisted on telling them that giving them real-term cuts was actually a ‘flat cash’ settlement.

Though by comparison to his other work in SG that was maybe the least worst.

Didn’t he front up the named person policy? An absolute car-crash of an idea that managed to anger everyone affected by it and fortunately died a death before we recruited armies of new health visitors and guidance teachers to make it work.

And of course the exams fiasco - any situation where you are competing with Gavin Williamson to see how bad you are at your job should ring alarm bells from Stranraer to Sumburgh Head.

I thought he showed a lack of competence as a minister and escaped any real consequences either because he was an ally or a human shield for the FM, or maybe both. Teflon John indeed.

The flipside of all that is he generally seemed to carry himself with grace and civility. But while manners maketh the man, they don’t maketh a good minister.

I'm commenting only on his role as Finance Minister, from personal experience. Senior colleagues who had closer dealings with him certainly found him to be very clued up and very easy to deal with.

Not sure he was really "Teflon John". Some of the media criticism was very severe.

[Mibbes Aye]

what's that based on, out of interest?

I feel Forbes should understand because of the seat she represents. I think Adrnamurchan sits in her constituency and as fantastic a place it is, it ticks the boxes for remoteness.

More generally, as a Highland MSP she should be aware of the broader issues - that a lot of public services operate out of Inverness and to a lesser extent the likes of Dingwall, Fort William, Wick etc and how Inverness has a gravitational pull on specialist health and social work services especially. That includes the centralising of a number of acute hospital services, away from the the towns already mentioned, at Raigmore. I get that these sorts of decisions are difficult for NHS Highland and Highland Council to make but they do impact on people's sense of wellbeing and outcomes. I think that shows itself in the number of non-party affiliated councillors in Highland, some elected on essentially single-ticket issues like the removal of maternity services from Caithness General Hospital.

I feel Forbes seems to understand because when she talks about localism and centralisation, it comes naturally - albeit I've not listened to hours and hours of her. Nevertheless when she does talk about it, she passes the proverbial 'sniff test' for me. She articulates the concepts in a way that sounds like she understands it, the challenges and the pros and cons and trying to achieve a successful blend, rather than just using buzzwords and cliches.

To an extent, that is walking the walk. The proof will cme if she becomes leader and FM and makes long-term decisions about health and social care, the justice system, the funding relationship with local authorities and the government's priorities through the national outcomes framework more generally.

I think that's what you were asking me to explain - if I've misunderstood and it was my comment about localism being essential then that's one for another post!

[Ozyhibby]

I feel Forbes should understand because of the seat she represents. I think Adrnamurchan sits in her constituency and as fantastic a place it is, it ticks the boxes for remoteness.

More generally, as a Highland MSP she should be aware of the broader issues - that a lot of public services operate out of Inverness and to a lesser extent the likes of Dingwall, Fort William, Wick etc and how Inverness has a gravitational pull on specialist health and social work services especially. That includes the centralising of a number of acute hospital services, away from the the towns already mentioned, at Raigmore. I get that these sorts of decisions are difficult for NHS Highland and Highland Council to make but they do impact on people's sense of wellbeing and outcomes. I think that shows itself in the number of non-party affiliated councillors in Highland, some elected on essentially single-ticket issues like the removal of maternity services from Caithness General Hospital.

I feel Forbes seems to understand because when she talks about localism and centralisation, it comes naturally - albeit I've not listened to hours and hours of her. Nevertheless when she does talk about it, she passes the proverbial 'sniff test' for me. She articulates the concepts in a way that sounds like she understands it, the challenges and the pros and cons and trying to achieve a successful blend, rather than just using buzzwords and cliches.

To an extent, that is walking the walk. The proof will cme if she becomes leader and FM and makes long-term decisions about health and social care, the justice system, the funding relationship with local authorities and the government's priorities through the national outcomes framework more generally.

I think that's what you were asking me to explain - if I've misunderstood and it was my comment about localism being essential then that's one for another post!

I didn’t know about her preference for localism but it is something I’m very much in favour of, which is also why I favour Indy/proper devolution.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Let me sit down for a few minutes, I agree with Maybes Aye on Forbes having a better understanding of rural communities. Far too often things are focused on the central belt. Would she lead to more localised government though, I'm not sure she would be able to push it through.

[Mibbes Aye]

Let me sit down for a few minutes, I agree with Maybes Aye on Forbes having a better understanding of rural communities. Far too often things are focused on the central belt. Would she lead to more localised government though, I'm not sure she would be able to push it through.

:agree:

Talk about relinquishing and transferring power is one thing. Giving up power when you have it is a darn sight more dificult.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I feel Forbes should understand because of the seat she represents. I think Adrnamurchan sits in her constituency and as fantastic a place it is, it ticks the boxes for remoteness.

More generally, as a Highland MSP she should be aware of the broader issues - that a lot of public services operate out of Inverness and to a lesser extent the likes of Dingwall, Fort William, Wick etc and how Inverness has a gravitational pull on specialist health and social work services especially. That includes the centralising of a number of acute hospital services, away from the the towns already mentioned, at Raigmore. I get that these sorts of decisions are difficult for NHS Highland and Highland Council to make but they do impact on people's sense of wellbeing and outcomes. I think that shows itself in the number of non-party affiliated councillors in Highland, some elected on essentially single-ticket issues like the removal of maternity services from Caithness General Hospital.

I feel Forbes seems to understand because when she talks about localism and centralisation, it comes naturally - albeit I've not listened to hours and hours of her. Nevertheless when she does talk about it, she passes the proverbial 'sniff test' for me. She articulates the concepts in a way that sounds like she understands it, the challenges and the pros and cons and trying to achieve a successful blend, rather than just using buzzwords and cliches.

To an extent, that is walking the walk. The proof will cme if she becomes leader and FM and makes long-term decisions about health and social care, the justice system, the funding relationship with local authorities and the government's priorities through the national outcomes framework more generally.

I think that's what you were asking me to explain - if I've misunderstood and it was my comment about localism being essential then that's one for another post!

one of my big worries about her is that she has one massive opportunity to walk the walk staring right at her, and it's looking like she's not going to take it.

that is challenging Westminster on their use of Section 35, and her not doing this worries me a lot on two fronts.

firstly, she has stated that although she has conservative social beliefs (to say the least), she wouldn't these before the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament. If she wants to prove it, then god damn it, defend the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament! If she agreed with the legislation that they are blocking, she'd be kicking up a fuss IMO. Humza Yousaf (who I don't love at all) called it right when he said that this is the thin end of the wedge. That is the second worry. She's letting something slip past that is going to come back to bite us time and time again.

I think people are seeing what they want to see in Forbes, or rather ignoring the bits they don't want to see. There's red flags a plenty, in spite of her being very confident, articulate and great at balancing books.


the other thing about localisation - this is, in principle, a good thing - except in places like the Borders, where Tories are destroying the place. NHS Borders has completely closed its waiting lists for assessments for ADHD and ASD, for example, simple because it's underfunded. They are pushing people to go private, and that has been part of the Tory plan all along. Certain things do need to be somewhat centralised IMO, or you can end up with poor people with rich neighbours suffering quite badly.

handing over power is a great thing, so long as you're not handing it to Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

one of my big worries about her is that she has one massive opportunity to walk the walk staring right at her, and it's looking like she's not going to take it.

that is challenging Westminster on their use of Section 35, and her not doing this worries me a lot on two fronts.

firstly, she has stated that although she has conservative social beliefs (to say the least), she wouldn't these before the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament. If she wants to prove it, then god damn it, defend the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament! If she agreed with the legislation that they are blocking, she'd be kicking up a fuss IMO. Humza Yousaf (who I don't love at all) called it right when he said that this is the thin end of the wedge. That is the second worry. She's letting something slip past that is going to come back to bite us time and time again.

I think people are seeing what they want to see in Forbes, or rather ignoring the bits they don't want to see. There's red flags a plenty, in spite of her being very confident, articulate and great at balancing books.


the other thing about localisation - this is, in principle, a good thing - except in places like the Borders, where Tories are destroying the place. NHS Borders has completely closed its waiting lists for assessments for ADHD and ASD, for example, simple because it's underfunded. They are pushing people to go private, and that has been part of the Tory plan all along. Certain things do need to be somewhat centralised IMO, or you can end up with poor people with rich neighbours suffering quite badly.

handing over power is a great thing, so long as you're not handing it to Tories.

This is what happens when localisation actually happens. People start screaming about postcode lotteries. If the Tories start running the borders badly then the people of the borders know what they have to do.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

This is what happens when localisation actually happens. People start screaming about postcode lotteries. If the Tories start running the borders badly then the people of the borders know what they have to do.


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That's the issue with localisation though. The party in council can do a bad job (usually quite intentionally), then tell their constituents that their council isn't being treated fairly by the party in central government when it comes to funding availability. In fact, those councillors are likely instructed to do so by their own party headquarters. It's no longer about representing their constituents, but rather, influencing their constituents through political gamesmanship. The bar truly has sunk that low.

[Santa Cruz]

That's the issue with localisation though. The party in council can do a bad job (usually quite intentionally), then tell their constituents that their council isn't being treated fairly by the party in central government when it comes to funding availability. In fact, those councillors are likely instructed to do so by their own party headquarters. It's no longer about representing their constituents, but rather, influencing their constituents through political gamesmanship. The bar truly has sunk that low.

Ms Aitken mentioned in the extract below from a long article, is the SNP Leader of Glasgow Council. Do you think the FM instructed her?

Ms Aitken has written a piece for The Glasgow Times slagging off the Tories, uh-huh, and Labour, uh-huh, but more importantly she’s had a pop at the SNP too. The council’s ability to tackle its problems, she says, is being constrained by limitations placed on it by Holyrood i.e. the SNP. And check this out: “We cannot be treated solely as a delivery vehicle for national priorities at the expense of local needs.” Decisions about Glasgow, she said, should be made in Glasgow. City-before-party kind of thing.

[Mibbes Aye]

one of my big worries about her is that she has one massive opportunity to walk the walk staring right at her, and it's looking like she's not going to take it.

that is challenging Westminster on their use of Section 35, and her not doing this worries me a lot on two fronts.

firstly, she has stated that although she has conservative social beliefs (to say the least), she wouldn't these before the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament. If she wants to prove it, then god damn it, defend the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament! If she agreed with the legislation that they are blocking, she'd be kicking up a fuss IMO. Humza Yousaf (who I don't love at all) called it right when he said that this is the thin end of the wedge. That is the second worry. She's letting something slip past that is going to come back to bite us time and time again.

I think people are seeing what they want to see in Forbes, or rather ignoring the bits they don't want to see. There's red flags a plenty, in spite of her being very confident, articulate and great at balancing books.


the other thing about localisation - this is, in principle, a good thing - except in places like the Borders, where Tories are destroying the place. NHS Borders has completely closed its waiting lists for assessments for ADHD and ASD, for example, simple because it's underfunded. They are pushing people to go private, and that has been part of the Tory plan all along. Certain things do need to be somewhat centralised IMO, or you can end up with poor people with rich neighbours suffering quite badly.

handing over power is a great thing, so long as you're not handing it to Tories.

I get what you are saying about her beliefs but I don't think her church preaches that she should ignore UK law because her party has a majority at Holyrood. That's Ash Regan territory. Are you micing up 'conservative' with 'Conservative'?

Anyway, I agree she will be under inense scrutiny to prove herself on conscience issues. Those against her will look to create them that's for sure.

As for NHS Borders, it isn't run by Tories, it's a health board, ultimately acountable to Scottish Government ministers, namely Humza. Getting an assessment for ADHD or ASD would usually be by GP referral to the appropriate mental health team. The trouble with going private is that yes, you can get an assessment and even prescriptions for medications but any other treatments and therapies are usually delivered through the NHS and you need the assessment by a statutory agency to access those.

As I understand it, the average waiting time in NHS Borders is around the two year mark, which sort of makes a waiting list redundant, you just end up having to run a dynamic prioritisation process, more or less triaging to try and identify the most in need on a week-to-week or month-to-month basis. I think underfunding is only half the story though. The numbers of referrals for assessment rocketed over the last few years, especially amongst children and young people. That has a disproportionate efect because resourcing of CAMHS has not kept pace with demand for many years and that's everywhere.

Your second last point about the potential effect of localism is absolutely valid and important and needs attention. We do need more localism but we need to be aware of the risks inherent.

[Ozyhibby]

That's the issue with localisation though. The party in council can do a bad job (usually quite intentionally), then tell their constituents that their council isn't being treated fairly by the party in central government when it comes to funding availability. In fact, those councillors are likely instructed to do so by their own party headquarters. It's no longer about representing their constituents, but rather, influencing their constituents through political gamesmanship. The bar truly has sunk that low.

Proper localisation localises the funding as well though. That is the problem we have with the Scottish Parliament and government as well. It lives of grants from Westminster.
Money should be raised locally and passed up for shared expenses not the other way round.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ms Aitken mentioned in the extract below from a long article, is the SNP Leader of Glasgow Council. Do you think the FM instructed her?

Ms Aitken has written a piece for The Glasgow Times slagging off the Tories, uh-huh, and Labour, uh-huh, but more importantly she’s had a pop at the SNP too. The council’s ability to tackle its problems, she says, is being constrained by limitations placed on it by Holyrood i.e. the SNP. And check this out: “We cannot be treated solely as a delivery vehicle for national priorities at the expense of local needs.” Decisions about Glasgow, she said, should be made in Glasgow. City-before-party kind of thing.

She isn't wrong and I'm not against the localisation of more power in principle. I'm just concerned about the abuse of those powers when political parties feel the need to game the system in order to influence who is running central government. I include the SNP in that as well, should they find themselves out of favour in Holyrood. No political party is beyond this nonsense unfortunately and it's ultimately the general public that suffer when they're playing these games.

[AgentDaleCooper]

This is what happens when localisation actually happens. People start screaming about postcode lotteries. If the Tories start running the borders badly then the people of the borders know what they have to do.


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the problem is that there's enough people in the borders that actually want the Tories to run it badly, because they're loaded and just think everyone should o private or die quietly.

local democracy is absolutely the way to go, but it needs to be tied to something central to make sure that certain key services aren't run into the ground in pockets of the country where many people can afford Bupa and Range Rovers and don't give a toss about those less fortunate.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Proper localisation localises the funding as well though. That is the problem we have with the Scottish Parliament and government as well. It lives of grants from Westminster.
Money should be raised locally and passed up for shared expenses not the other way round.


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I agree to an extent. However, not all local areas are equal or capable of raising the same level of funding per localised capita compared to other local areas. There would still need to be a redistribution network to ensure that areas that require greater subsidisation receive the funding required to grow their own local economies.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230304/4e0f96a5d8e3e69c477f9d68d7149d92.jpg
Classy statement from the Tories.


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[Smartie]

All this talk of localisation is well and good and I don’t remember anyone wanting more “centralisation”.

Did anyone ever campaign for their own, local, underused A and E department to close down?

There are, unfortunately, gaps between public expectation regarding the current standard of services and what the public are prepared to pay via taxes. We need an honest conversation regarding paying more or continuing the decline of services.

I have a degree of sympathy with those who live in remote areas in Scotland but only a degree. We have issues with how few people actually live in many areas of Scotland and sadly it’s often not even close to being viable to have the standards of service we expect in certain areas, particularly when those services might be reliant on certain types of equipment and technology.

I actually struggle to get enthused about politicians and “health”. It’s quite depressing if the truth be told. Different coloured rosettes but I struggle to see how anything ever changes depending on who is in charge.

[Ozyhibby]

All this talk of localisation is well and good and I don’t remember anyone wanting more “centralisation”.

Did anyone ever campaign for their own, local, underused A and E department to close down?

There are, unfortunately, gaps between public expectation regarding the current standard of services and what the public are prepared to pay via taxes. We need an honest conversation regarding paying more or continuing the decline of services.

I have a degree of sympathy with those who live in remote areas in Scotland but only a degree. We have issues with how few people actually live in many areas of Scotland and sadly it’s often not even close to being viable to have the standards of service we expect in certain areas, particularly when those services might be reliant on certain types of equipment and technology.

I actually struggle to get enthused about politicians and “health”. It’s quite depressing if the truth be told. Different coloured rosettes but I struggle to see how anything ever changes depending on who is in charge.

You be surprised how much extra can be raised when it’s being raised for something local.


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[Smartie]

You be surprised how much extra can be raised when it’s being raised for something local.


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Which might buy the shiny object.

What then about the people who operate it or to heat the building it rests in?

There are dire problems getting clinicians to work in remote areas as it is, that’s before you get onto the staff who would earn much more working in the supermarkets who are rapidly upping their prices and what they pay their staff.

[archie]

That's the issue with localisation though. The party in council can do a bad job (usually quite intentionally), then tell their constituents that their council isn't being treated fairly by the party in central government when it comes to funding availability. In fact, those councillors are likely instructed to do so by their own party headquarters. It's no longer about representing their constituents, but rather, influencing their constituents through political gamesmanship. The bar truly has sunk that low.
Why would a council do a bad job intentionally?

[archie]

Proper localisation localises the funding as well though. That is the problem we have with the Scottish Parliament and government as well. It lives of grants from Westminster.
Money should be raised locally and passed up for shared expenses not the other way round.


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I thought you were opposed to richer areas supporting poorer areas?

[Santa Cruz]

Why would a council do a bad job intentionally?

I'd question why Borders Council thinks spending £35k of unspent covid funds on celebrations for the King's Coronation is acceptable? They surely must have vulnerable residents or services who are crying out for financial support. It's maybe not an example of intentional neglect, but for me it is a clear example of a Council that has their priorities wrong.

[archie]

I'd question why Borders Council thinks spending £35k of unspent covid funds on celebrations for the King's Coronation is acceptable? They surely must have vulnerable residents or services who are crying out for financial support. It's maybe not an example of intentional neglect, but for me it is a clear example of a Council that has their priorities wrong.

Borders Council's gross budget is £387.9m. You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount. By all means have your view, but you can't support localism then complain that local politicians are making local decisions.

[maltman91]

Borders Council's gross budget is £387.9m. You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount. By all means have your view, but you can't support localism then complain that local politicians are making local decisions.


0.01% of there budget but when 0.03% get put aside from the scottish goverment for independence its a different story.

"You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount."

[greenlex]

Borders Council's gross budget is £387.9m. You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount. By all means have your view, but you can't support localism then complain that local politicians are making local decisions.
Of course you can support localism and complain about local decisions. What a strange view.

[Santa Cruz]

Borders Council's gross budget is £387.9m. You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount. By all means have your view, but you can't support localism then complain that local politicians are making local decisions.

I don't remember posting I supported localism, happy to be corrected on that. Do they not have foodbanks in the Borders? I wouldn't think users of that service would view £35k as a trivial amount.

[archie]

Of course you can support localism and complain about local decisions. What a stupid view.

Thanks for the input. What I actually said was 'By all means have your view, but you can't support localism then complain that local politicians are making local decisions.' I'm expressly saying you can have a view. But if you accept localism you accept that decisions will be made locally

[archie]

I don't remember posting I supported localism, happy to be corrected on that. Do they not have foodbanks in the Borders? I wouldn't think users of that service would view £35k as a trivial amount.
Fine, happy to be corrected that you don't support localism. Personally I agree with you. But if it's popular locally isn't that what counts?

[Santa Cruz]

Fine, happy to be corrected that you don't support localism. Personally I agree with you. But if it's popular locally isn't that what counts?

Do you know if it's popular locally with all residents? I only ask as I don't remember ever being consulted with by my LA prior to them taking a decision on how to allocate unused funding.

Edit - I'm neither for or against localism, I can see pro's and cons to it but would be interested to listen to more detail on how it would benefit residents in terms of delivering improved services.

[archie]

0.01% of there budget but when 0.03% get put aside from the scottish goverment for independence its a different story.

"You may not like it, but I suspect it's popular with some residents and it's absolutely a trivial amount."

Odd conjunction of local and Scottish Government spending. For context the Scottish Govt budget is £59.7bn. The coronation fund is for grants to community organisations for up to £500. https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/20076/community_grants_and_funding/1264/kings_coronation_funding

[archie]

Do you know if it's popular locally with all residents? I only ask as I don't remember ever being consulted with by my LA prior to them taking a decision on how to allocate unused funding.

It's an application process so the proof of the pudding will be in the eating

[Santa Cruz]

Odd conjunction of local and Scottish Government spending. For context the Scottish Govt budget is £59.7bn. The coronation fund is for grants to community organisations for up to £500. https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/20076/community_grants_and_funding/1264/kings_coronation_funding

A bit additional info here.


https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1626245218231111682

[maltman91]

Odd conjunction of local and Scottish Government spending. For context the Scottish Govt budget is £59.7bn. The coronation fund is for grants to community organisations for up to £500. https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/20076/community_grants_and_funding/1264/kings_coronation_funding

Yes and 20 million of 60 billion is 0.03% and 35k of 387 million is 0.01%. It's a direct comparison between each budget. I don't get what context you mean.

I just think it's a waste of money as you will think the money put aside for independence was a waste of money. As you said though trivial amounts.

[archie]

Yes and 20 million of 60 billion is 0.03% and 35k of 387 million is 0.01%. It's a direct comparison between each budget. I don't get what context you mean.

I just think it's a waste of money as you will think the money put aside for independence was a waste of money. As you said though trivial amounts.

The context was the actual amount of money. I don't think £20m is trivial.

[maltman91]

The context was the actual amount of money. I don't think £20m is trivial.

OK I have broke it down to percentages of each budget. 1 is trivial the other one is not is what your saying.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'd question why Borders Council thinks spending £35k of unspent covid funds on celebrations for the King's Coronation is acceptable? They surely must have vulnerable residents or services who are crying out for financial support. It's maybe not an example of intentional neglect, but for me it is a clear example of a Council that has their priorities wrong.

It has its priorities in order from a Tory point of view.
Public transport is another example. In the Borders, it's either terrible or extprtionate, often both. When you bring this up with local constituents, many of them just spout your standard free-market "well use it more then" pish, simply because they don't need to care as they can cut about in a 4x4 or a tesla.

[archie]

OK I have broke it down to percentages of each budget. 1 is trivial the other one is not is what your saying.

It's a matter of scale. I think obsessing over £35k is a waste of time. I take the point that in percentage terms they are similar, but in monetary terms 35k vs 20m is significantly different.

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes calls for highland council to be split up.


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[Santa Cruz]

Forbes calls for highland council to be split up.


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Was 8 councils (I think) before merging to 1 prior to Local Gov reorganisation in '96.

[maltman91]

It's a matter of scale. I think obsessing over £35k is a waste of time. I take the point that in percentage terms they are similar, but in monetary terms 35k vs 20m is significantly different.

Yes and 37 billion for a covid test and trace system that never worked blows both those figures away. Even though its a "trivial" amount of the UK budget.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yes and 37 billion for a covid test and trace system that never worked blows both those figures away. Even though its a "trivial" amount of the UK budget.

The testing was pretty much all of that figure and it did work. Apart from maybe Denmark we had the best testing in the world it cost billion but it was worth it. 37 was the budget but just over 30 was spent

https://fullfact.org/health/test-and-trace-37-billion/

[Mibbes Aye]

It has its priorities in order from a Tory point of view.
Public transport is another example. In the Borders, it's either terrible or extprtionate, often both. When you bring this up with local constituents, many of them just spout your standard free-market "well use it more then" pish, simply because they don't need to care as they can cut about in a 4x4 or a tesla.

I'm surpised you are still banging on about public services in Scottish Borders after wrongly claiming the health board was Tory.

Public transport in the Borders is reasonable all things considered. You don't pay if you are under 21 or over 60, or have a disability.

The geography of the Borders is such that it is built around A roads that are spokes from the hub - the hub being Edinburgh or Galashiels, which is the main exchange and where you can get on a train that takes you directly to Edinburgh, and directly to Fife on some services.

The bus providers on those spokes took a hammering during Covid but the service is still reasonable. Going across the spokes isn't as busy but you can still get from the likes of Jedburgh to Denholm, and thus onto Hawick, or St Boswell's to Kelso and onto Berwick, without too much trouble.

As for 4x4s, if you have to drive in bad weather across Soutra, or Carter Bar, or Middleton Moor, or Lauder Common into Stow, or stretches of the A72 or A697, or countless minor routes then you need it just to feel close to safe.

[archie]

Yes and 37 billion for a covid test and trace system that never worked blows both those figures away. Even though its a "trivial" amount of the UK budget.

That might be right. But I don't see how it obviates the point I made. BTW https://fullfact.org/health/test-and-trace-37-billion/

[Mibbes Aye]

All this talk of localisation is well and good and I don’t remember anyone wanting more “centralisation”.

Did anyone ever campaign for their own, local, underused A and E department to close down?

There are, unfortunately, gaps between public expectation regarding the current standard of services and what the public are prepared to pay via taxes. We need an honest conversation regarding paying more or continuing the decline of services.

I have a degree of sympathy with those who live in remote areas in Scotland but only a degree. We have issues with how few people actually live in many areas of Scotland and sadly it’s often not even close to being viable to have the standards of service we expect in certain areas, particularly when those services might be reliant on certain types of equipment and technology.

I actually struggle to get enthused about politicians and “health”. It’s quite depressing if the truth be told. Different coloured rosettes but I struggle to see how anything ever changes depending on who is in charge.

I do recall it once. I think it was in the run-up to the 2007 Holyrood election, might have been the following one, can't remember off the top of my head.

North Lanarkshire Council area has three acute hospitals in its geography. One of them, Monklands IIRC was very much in need of a rebuild. NHS Lanarkshire had a range of options on the table. Labour campaigned in the area for closing it, and relying on the other two acutes (and in truth some people in NHS Lanarkshire area have always ended up getting treatment in NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, or NHS Forth Valley).

Anyway, they campaigned on running it down because the data showed it shouldn't lead to poorer outcomes. They proposed using the money freed up to build a cutting-edge Maggie's Centre and invest the rest in primary care. The SNP candidate in the area campaigned on keeping the hospital, and especially the A&E open, despite the business case not being there.

Understandably the perceived loss of an A&E was emotive and the SNP candidate won the seat. So in answer to your question - yes, but it didn't get them very far.

Going by some of the posts on here I think people hold very different definitions of what localism means. For me it's not about equality, it's more about equity, and even then it's not so much about equity, it's more about empowerment. For me that means transfer of a lot of power rom the centre out to more local structures and ultimately to people and communities. That shouldn't negate the need for some oversight at the centre, in order to rationalise and maximise the benefits.

[WeeRussell]

Do you know if it's popular locally with all residents? I only ask as I don't remember ever being consulted with by my LA prior to them taking a decision on how to allocate unused funding.

Edit - I'm neither for or against localism, I can see pro's and cons to it but would be interested to listen to more detail on how it would benefit residents in terms of delivering improved services.

This local resident thinks it’s ****ing outrageous. As does anyone I’ve spoken to on the matter.

I do however have no doubt that some individuals will like the idea. Or at least pretend to.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm surpised you are still banging on about public services in Scottish Borders after wrongly claiming the health board was Tory.

Public transport in the Borders is reasonable all things considered. You don't pay if you are under 21 or over 60, or have a disability.

The geography of the Borders is such that it is built around A roads that are spokes from the hub - the hub being Edinburgh or Galashiels, which is the main exchange and where you can get on a train that takes you directly to Edinburgh, and directly to Fife on some services.

The bus providers on those spokes took a hammering during Covid but the service is still reasonable. Going across the spokes isn't as busy but you can still get from the likes of Jedburgh to Denholm, and thus onto Hawick, or St Boswell's to Kelso and onto Berwick, without too much trouble.

As for 4x4s, if you have to drive in bad weather across Soutra, or Carter Bar, or Middleton Moor, or Lauder Common into Stow, or stretches of the A72 or A697, or countless minor routes then you need it just to feel close to safe.

My experiences of public service provision in the Borders is based on a few factors. Happy to acknowledge what you are saying about the health board not being linked to the Tory party - it might just be a cultural thing, but it's an absolute mess.

I know from working in the care sector for over 15 years, and having a sister with Down's Syndrome, that learning disability services are first on the chopping block when it comes to cuts, regardless of how inadequate services are at any given time. There's an absolute crisis when it comes to finding carers, and organisations are constantly facing cut backs that often drive out good managers and bring organisations to the brink of collapse. My mum was having to care for her and my late father, who had alzheimers, and getting help was like drawing blood from a stone. She knows parents in other council areas who have had it bad, but not as bad as the Borders.

In terms of buses, the area I'm most familiar with is that based around Peebles, particularly the A702 route between Edinburgh and Biggar, which passes through the Borders at West Linton and Dolphinton. The various councils involved in that bus route basically nearly drove it out of existence last year, and it took a serious community effort to prevent it from being cancelled completely. The service is terrible - you can't get into Edinburgh and back again if you want to see an event that goes on later than 8pm. When it came to keeping the route going, Tory councillors were absolutely useless, basically just sat on their hands, while others did all of the heavy lifting. Affluent members of the community took the view that because people weren't using the service enough for it to be profitable, it deserved to go - completely ignoring the fact that the quality of the service is what causes the demand to be so low. The bus is mobbed on the morning journeying into town, and the post-work rush back out - many people absolutely depend on it.

Other routes I'm aware of are absolutely extortionate - to get from Penicuik to Peebles and back, you're looking at about a tenner.

Part of the problem stems from how cynical the Tory Party are in their recruitment of councillors - they recruit totally apolitical people who are well known and liked in their communities, pay them a decent wage, have them scoot about to dinners and so on, but tie their hands when it comes to actually standing up for things that matter to vulnerable people. Absolutely rancid party committing social, cultural and economic vandalism wherever you find them.

[Stairway 2 7]

The herald saying a fourth source claiming Humza asked to miss the vote. Also 8th poll in a row with a no lead, so the question is which candidate changes the no's to yes

https://archive.is/QENJf

Denying he would ever use his faith as a basis for legislation, Yousaf has claimed the vote clashed with an “unavoidable” meeting with the consul of Pakistan to discuss a Scot who was on death row.
Yousaf’s ministerial diary, seen by The Herald, revealed that he arranged the meeting three weeks ahead of the vote, before Mohammad Asghar had been sentenced

[maltman91]

That might be right. But I don't see how it obviates the point I made. BTW https://fullfact.org/health/test-and-trace-37-billion/

OK 29.5 billion got spent. How much of the 20 million put aside for independence got spent BTW. I'll leave it at that anyway. Let people get on with the debate for snp leadership.

[archie]

OK 29.5 billion got spent. How much of the 20 million put aside for independence got spent BTW. I'll leave it at that anyway. Let people get on with the debate for snp leadership.

I'm not for defending the Tories, but I think it's important to be accurate. Also, I don't know how much of the £29.5b was wasted. I'm sure the covid inquiries will shed some light.

[Hibrandenburg]

The context was the actual amount of money. I don't think £20m is trivial.

0.03% of a party's budget spent on trying to achieve that what they were elected to do is an underspend imo :wink: