So the runners and riders are...

[neil7908]

She isn't going to have an iron clad grasp on the party like Salmond or Sturgeon did, she's entitled to vote anyway she likes on any given subject, if her constituency don't like it they will vote her out, if she turns round and says everyone in the SNP needs to vote the way my views are aligned then she won't last too long

She's hardly going to incite hatred and have people storming Holyrood in some January 6th coup

She will be leader of the party. She decides what action is taken, what bills are put forward, what the governments agenda is. Do you honestly think marriage equality would have been put forward if she was FM at the time? Leaders do just that - lead people.

I have never suggest she is some Trump type dictator but its bizarre to suggest as party leader she won't progress the agendas she feels strongly about.

Her views on a range of issues and the trashing of her own record in power are massive flags for me. I'm a general left wing voter who has moved around parties and if she is leader I won't touch SNP.

Compare her (and other candidates to be fair) to Sturgeon and its night and day.

[neil7908]

I think bar the social policies this whole post is presumption and projection on her financial policies. I'm not saying she will be left economically but she hasn't shown she will be right

So at best it's total guess work as to what her policies are, except that she's socially conversative and will vote that way. But we just trust her?

[He's here!]

People who start talking about leaving seldom last long anyway. If it’s not this then it will be something else in the future.


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Black's the party's deputy Commons leader. The reason Sturgeon by and large maintained party discipline for so long was in no small measure due to her strong working relationship with Blackford. If the new leadership team at Westminster are already at odds with a potential Holyrood leader it doesn't bode well.

[Stairway 2 7]

So at best it's total guess work as to what her policies are, except that she's socially conversative and will vote that way. But we just trust her?

No the only policies she has actually put forward are her financial policies. I'd say they are more left wing than anything we've seen in the uk in decades. I'd be delighted if they came to pass. Proper wages working with the unions and a push to a fully green energy network

[Stairway 2 7]

Black's the party's deputy Commons leader. The reason Sturgeon by and large maintained party discipline for so long was in no small measure due to her strong working relationship with Blackford. If the new leadership team at Westminster are already at odds with a potential Holyrood leader it doesn't bode well.

Flynn said he'll work with all three. He was actually very good on GRC bill too, he said he'd fully push for it to pass but would have let people vote the way they wanted

[Ozyhibby]

Black's the party's deputy Commons leader. The reason Sturgeon by and large maintained party discipline for so long was in no small measure due to her strong working relationship with Blackford. If the new leadership team at Westminster are already at odds with a potential Holyrood leader it doesn't bode well.

I think it’s campaign talk for Yousaf. She leaves the SNP then she is out of a job next year. I don’t think she will. She will get on with her job in parliament.


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[Ozyhibby]

No the only policies she has actually put forward are her financial policies. I'd say they are more left wing than anything we've seen in the uk in decades. I'd be delighted if they came to pass. Proper wages working with the unions and a push to a fully green energy network

Yip. If only the Labour Party were as left wing as Forbes.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Yip. If only the Labour Party were as left wing as Forbes.


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Yes sadly Starmer isn't getting the unions round the table to help write policy any time soon

[archie]

No NHS but a better healthcare system.


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This is pretty balanced. Not a bad scorecard https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/

But https://www.bonkers.ie/guides/health-insurance/irelands-health-care-system-in-numbers/

Is this you making a case for health insurance/private funding?

[AgentDaleCooper]

Honestly, how much more slippery can Forbes be without her supporters taking note.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Forbes literally just played the 'christians are a minority' card lol

[Stairway 2 7]

20 minutes about issues that Scots don't put in their top 5 issues. 10 minutes on economy jeez

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes sadly Starmer isn't getting the unions round the table to help write policy any time soon

The Labour NEC sets the party's objectives. The biggest cohort on it is trade unionists, 13 of them IIRC.

[Mon Dieu4]

She will be leader of the party. She decides what action is taken, what bills are put forward, what the governments agenda is. Do you honestly think marriage equality would have been put forward if she was FM at the time? Leaders do just that - lead people.

I have never suggest she is some Trump type dictator but its bizarre to suggest as party leader she won't progress the agendas she feels strongly about.

Her views on a range of issues and the trashing of her own record in power are massive flags for me. I'm a general left wing voter who has moved around parties and if she is leader I won't touch SNP.

Compare her (and other candidates to be fair) to Sturgeon and its night and day.

If the public opinion and the rest of the party brought forward that it was an issue that should be addressed then yes I do

Do you honestly think that if millions of people and the majority of her party were in favour of something she's just going to be tone deaf and say that's against my personal views so I'm not touching it, I don't because again she wouldn't be in the job very long if she did

[Skol]

Forbes literally just played the 'christians are a minority' card lol

How do you feel about Yousaf religious beliefs. If you rule him out you are left with Regan, but you’ve ruled her out already I presume.

[Mibbes Aye]

No NHS but a better healthcare system.


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How are you measuring that?

There are numerous ways of measuring the quality and effectiveness of health care systems across different nations. I've only ever seen one analysis that put Ireland ahead of the UK and that was marginal, the rest all UK sometimes by 40 or 50 places in a world ranking.

Anyway I think it's very difficult to compare things as complicated and complex as health systems internationally. It is challenging enough to accurately compare performance of two health boards in a system as small as Scotland!

[Stairway 2 7]

The Labour NEC sets the party's objectives. The biggest cohort on it is trade unionists, 13 of them IIRC.

Do you honestly think Starmer will govern by policy put forwards by the union

[AgentDaleCooper]

How do you feel about Yousaf religious beliefs. If you rule him out you are left with Regan, but you’ve ruled her out already I presume.

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

[Hibs4185]

Black's the party's deputy Commons leader. The reason Sturgeon by and large maintained party discipline for so long was in no small measure due to her strong working relationship with Blackford. If the new leadership team at Westminster are already at odds with a potential Holyrood leader it doesn't bode well.

It seems any party that are in power too long end up self exploding. SNP 16 years and it comes to this.

The Tories just now with all their shenanigans and Labour after the Blair and Brown years were they’ve been virtually unelectable for the last 15 years.

Maybe power goes to their heads and they think they can do anything

[Ozyhibby]

Forbes literally just played the 'christians are a minority' card lol

They surely are these days?


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[Ozyhibby]

How are you measuring that?

There are numerous ways of measuring the quality and effectiveness of health care systems across different nations. I've only ever seen one analysis that put Ireland ahead of the UK and that was marginal, the rest all UK sometimes by 40 or 50 places in a world ranking.

Anyway I think it's very difficult to compare things as complicated and complex as health systems internationally. It is challenging enough to accurately compare performance of two health boards in a system as small as Scotland!

They live longer? If you are looking at it holistically then surely that is the best measure?


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[Stairway 2 7]

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

In which way will she drag it to the right. Surely the biggest part of a governments role is its budget and the economy. From what I've read she'll drag it quite sharply to the left.

[Ozyhibby]

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

You can’t name a single right wing policy of hers.


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[Skol]

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

He ducks questions about why he missed a vote. Any answers I have ever seen from him are suitably vague to be meaningless.

Yousaf will win by default. I agree on that. However he will not advance independence one not.

The problem as I see it though is Regan is the equivalent of truss and Forbes clearly has people like you against her. Even Ozy has ditched his support for yousaf

[AgentDaleCooper]

They surely are these days?


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I mean, in as much as atheists are a minority...it's sort of trivialising the word a bit. I've also never heard a Christian say it unless they were defending absolute gutter beliefs.

[Skol]

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

He ducks questions about why he missed a vote. Any answers I have ever seen from him are suitably vague to be meaningless.

Yousaf will win by default. I agree on that. However he will not advance independence one not.

The problem as I see it though is Regan is the equivalent of truss and Forbes clearly has people like you against her. Even Ozy has ditched his support for yousaf

[AgentDaleCooper]

You can’t name a single right wing policy of hers.


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I've look at what a paper she authored did and didn't say and drawn pretty reasonable conclusions IMO. I'm actually genuinely struggling to find specific policies on the internet, if you can point me in their direction I'd genuinely appreciated it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Do you honestly think Starmer will govern by policy put forwards by the union

That's not the point you made. You said he wouldn't have the unions round the table helping with policy soon. I pointed out that the NEC, which Starmer also attends, very much does have the unions round the table, setting policy.

The history of the Labour Party is a history of policy being contested. On the one hand you could argue that we have the PLP and the leadership, who should be able to lead. On the other hand we have policy-making forums that are a broad church and we have conference. That is maybe seen as more 'grass-roots but glosses over the fact that not all the PLP always support the leadership and also that the rank and file support may well support the leadership over their own CLP or trade union.

I'm minded to recall Starmer's predecessor here. More Labour Party members voted Remain than ever voted for Corbyn as leader, yet Corbyn refused to stand up for the party membership and give Remain his unequivocal backing. No surprise because he is inherently a 1970s anti-EEC dinosaur. But I think the TUC were massivley Remain.

So I think it's a lot more fluid than a binary answer here. But I think Starmer is closer policy-wise to the unions than his peers. And I guess we can't deal with hypotheticals, if nothing else the unions don't speak with one voice - Mick Lynch voted for Brexit, didn't he?

[Mibbes Aye]

They live longer? If you are looking at it holistically then surely that is the best measure?


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You would think, maybe. But it's not.

Living longer in poor health, with one or (often several) more morbidities is something we are incredibly good at. It doesn't mean that people are enjoying a good quality of life though, even any qualiy of life, does it?

[AgentDaleCooper]

He ducks questions about why he missed a vote. Any answers I have ever seen from him are suitably vague to be meaningless.

Yousaf will win by default. I agree on that. However he will not advance independence one not.

The problem as I see it though is Regan is the equivalent of truss and Forbes clearly has people like you against her. Even Ozy has ditched his support for yousaf

i agree that the stuff about missing that vote wasn't great, i.e. quite bad, though he did vote for the bill in previous rounds. Like i said, best of a bad bunch.

Forbes isn't going to help independence either. Looks like she won't work with the Greens, as she wants to slow down on the move to net zero, and she'd quite feasibly end up splitting her own party.

Which ever way it goes, the next leader may run the party in to the ground.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's not the point you made. You said he wouldn't have the unions round the table helping with policy soon. I pointed out that the NEC, which Starmer also attends, very much does have the unions round the table, setting policy.

The history of the Labour Party is a history of policy being contested. On the hand you could argue that we have the PLP and the leadership, who should be able to lead. On the other hand we have policy-making forums that are a broad church and we have conference. That is maybe seen as more 'grass-roots but glosses over the fact that not all the PLP always support the leadership and also that the rank and file support may well support the leadership over their own CLP or trade union.

I'm minded to recall Starmer's predecessor here. More Labour Party members voted Remain than ever voted for Corbyn as leader, yet Corbyn refused to stand up for the party membership and give Remain his unequivocal backing. No surprise because he is inherently a 1970s anti-EEC dinosaur. But I think the TUC

So I think it's a lot more fluid than a binary answer here. But I think Starmer is closer policy-wise to the unions than his peers. And I guess we can't deal with hypotheticals, if nothing else the unions don't speak with one voice - Mick Lynch voted for Brexit, didn't he?

A lot of words to tell me what I said and think, cheers. Starmer won't decide policy remotely what the unions would want. When it comes down to it when they were most needed in the last 20 years the strikes just past, he didn't support or stand with them and told his mps to do the same

[Mibbes Aye]

A lot of words to tell me what I said and think, cheers. Starmer won't decide policy remotely what the unions would want. When it comes down to it when they were most needed in the last 20 years the strikes just past, he didn't support or stand with them and told his mps to do the same

Glad we cleared up the role of the NEC, cheers.

Well, if you want to drill it down, then here we go:

Starmer was elected by Labour Party members to lead the Labour Party. There might be some overlap with the unions but he wasn't elected by union members to lead the unions. They often don't speak with one voice anyway and woe betide you if you want to tell the RMT what to do because that's what the NUT or the RCN are doing.

Your 20-year claim I don't pretend to understand where you are coing from there, but I don't think the unions 'did need him the most' on picket lines etc. Most seem to have done relatively well without him standing by the brazier and instead just getting on with his job.

He told his MPs not to go on the picket line if they wanted to be in government, and he told his shadow ministers not to or face disciplinary. He wants them to behave as the 'government-in-waiting' I guess and that's not really a viable way to behave for a minister.

As far as it goes, I think it did get very messy last August when this was all at its peak. Most reasonable observers, wheteher pro-Starmer or ant-Starmer, would probably agree he comes across as careful and considered, perhaps too much so for some. I don't doubt he really disliked how things played out and there will have been learning from it.

[grunt]

Glad we cleared up the role of the NEC, cheers.

Well, if you want to drill it down, then here we go:

Starmer was elected by Labour Party members to lead the Labour Party. There might be some overlap with the unions but he wasn't elected by union members to lead the unions. They often don't speak with one voice anyway and woe betide you if you want to tell the RMT what to do because that's what the NUT or the RCN are doing.

Your 20-year claim I don't pretend to understand where you are coing from there, but I don't think the unions 'did need him the most' on picket lines etc. Most seem to have done relatively well without him standing by the brazier and instead just getting on with his job.

He told his MPs not to go on the picket line if they wanted to be in government, and he told his shadow ministers not to or face disciplinary. He wants them to behave as the 'government-in-waiting' I guess and that's not really a viable way to behave for a minister.

As far as it goes, I think it did get very messy last August when this was all at its peak. Most reasonable observers, wheteher pro-Starmer or ant-Starmer, would probably agree he comes across as careful and considered, perhaps too much so for some. I don't doubt he really disliked how things played out and there will have been learning from it.
This thread is about the contest for the SNP leadership. How is this relevant?

[Stairway 2 7]

Glad we cleared up the role of the NEC, cheers.

Well, if you want to drill it down, then here we go:

Starmer was elected by Labour Party members to lead the Labour Party. There might be some overlap with the unions but he wasn't elected by union members to lead the unions. They often don't speak with one voice anyway and woe betide you if you want to tell the RMT what to do because that's what the NUT or the RCN are doing.

Your 20-year claim I don't pretend to understand where you are coing from there, but I don't think the unions 'did need him the most' on picket lines etc. Most seem to have done relatively well without him standing by the brazier and instead just getting on with his job.

He told his MPs not to go on the picket line if they wanted to be in government, and he told his shadow ministers not to or face disciplinary. He wants them to behave as the 'government-in-waiting' I guess and that's not really a viable way to behave for a minister.

As far as it goes, I think it did get very messy last August when this was all at its peak. Most reasonable observers, wheteher pro-Starmer or ant-Starmer, would probably agree he comes across as careful and considered, perhaps too much so for some. I don't doubt he really disliked how things played out and there will have been learning from it.

Yet more words on a different subject. I said Starmer won't have government policies most unions would push. He's centre right and that's fair enough he doesn't say he isn't

Why does a government in waiting have to not support the workers striking whilst facing brutal cuts, absolute nonsense. Most reasonable observers said he went missing, like he has been on refugees

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anyone asked Forbes about the dinosaurs yet?

She'll get to answer them when she is responding at FMQs 😉

[grunt]

Has anyone asked Forbes about the dinosaurs yet?

Who do you think are the ones voting her in?

[Mibbes Aye]

This thread is about the contest for the SNP leadership. How is this relevant?

Two things here.

First of all, I didn't bring Starmer into this, I merely replied to someone who did (and was incorrect).

Second of all, your most recent posts on the "Future of the Labour Party' thread seem to be about Boris Johnson, Kate Forbers, Iain McWhirter and the National. I suggest you put your glass house on the market.

As far as it goes, I would think you would welcome any distraction from the monumental cluster**** that is a SNP leadership election where the bookie's favourite is 'None of the above, as it stands' :greengrin

And as far as it goes I think all, or at least the vast majority of my posts on this thread have been on-topic.

[Stairway 2 7]

Two things here.

First of all, I didn't bring Starmer into this, I merely replied to someone who did (and was incorrect).

Second of all, your most recent posts on the "Future of the Labour Party' thread seem to be about Boris Johnson, Kate Forbers, Iain McWhirter and the National. I suggest you put your glass house on the market.

As far as it goes, I would think you would welcome any distraction from the monumental cluster**** that is a SNP leadership election where the bookie's favourite is 'None of the above, as it stands' :greengrin

And as far as it goes I think all, or at least the vast majority of my posts on this thread have been on-topic.

I said Forbes had said she listened to the trade unions before deciding her policy. I said Starmer wouldn't listened to the unions before deciding the policies he chose. You came and said he would then he wouldn't then maybe he would.

Irregardless of how he form's his policies we know they will be centre right. The topic was about Forbes wanting more left wing policies than either the two main parties down south

[Sergio sledge]

perfectly fine with them, he's not a fundamentalist and doesn't duck questions about whether things are right or wrong.

Yousaf should win it IMO, if only by default. He's the least rubbish by a long shot. Forbes will drag the party to the right and get outflanked by Labour.

Hasn't that been her biggest issue, she didn't duck the questions, answered them honestly and, in your words, "outed herself as a bigot"?

Yousaf's line of attack on her seems to be that she'll drag the party to the right, which you are echoing here, but from the things she has talked about in this campaign and which people have mentioned earlier in the thread it doesn't look like that at all to me.

I don't think opposing the GRR in it's current form is a right or a left thing IMHO, although admittedly you'll probably find more people to the left supporting it than to the right. In her defense she has said she wouldn't have voted for it but will go with the legal advice on the matter as to whether to challenge it in court. She also said very early on that there needed to be reform to the existing GRA but that her preference is to reform the current proposals to make the bill passable rather than a lengthy legal action if the advice is that we'll lose. It seems pretty sensible to me IMHO rather than Yousaf's go to court over it no matter what approach.

You are right in what you say later in the thread, I can't see the party being the same after this, no matter who wins and there's a very real chance of a split if Forbes wins.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing for independence though, perhaps it'll help the cause if people see a broader range of political parties working for independence rather than the perception that it independence = SNP.

[grunt]

Two things here.

First of all, I didn't bring Starmer into this, I merely replied to someone who did (and was incorrect).

Second of all, your most recent posts on the "Future of the Labour Party' thread seem to be about Boris Johnson, Kate Forbers, Iain McWhirter and the National. I suggest you put your glass house on the market.

As far as it goes, I would think you would welcome any distraction from the monumental cluster**** that is a SNP leadership election where the bookie's favourite is 'None of the above, as it stands' :greengrin

And as far as it goes I think all, or at least the vast majority of my posts on this thread have been on-topic.I was right, wasn't I? Why not just say it?

[Mibbes Aye]

I was right, wasn't I? Why not just say it?

You are right, the exchange I was in wasn’t related to the thread title.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64875371?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_id=AE8910BC-BECF-11ED-80FB-67BB4744363C&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link

Can’t remember where all the healthcare chat was yesterday.


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[archie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64875371?at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_id=AE8910BC-BECF-11ED-80FB-67BB4744363C&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link

Can’t remember where all the healthcare chat was yesterday.


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Beat me to it. Start of a difficult conversation?

[J-C]

What has happened to James310, I thought he'd be all over these Scottish threads, seems Archie has taking his place for a wee while.

[archie]

What has happened to James310, I thought he'd be all over these Scottish threads, seems Archie has taking his place for a wee while.

I think he was invited to leave along with Zambernardi. No idea why.

[JeMeSouviens]

Beat me to it. Start of a difficult conversation?

Is that really much different from here? We can go private and jump waiting lists too?

If we're going to go more private then I'd prefer something more akin to the Swiss system, which is compulsory insurance and a single tier of universal provision. You get to see costs of any treatment and pay a small capped excess amount. So everyone is aware of how much benefit they're getting and how much their treatment costs.

I broke my arm there about 10 years ago and had surgery. My experience of our health system has largely been positive but theirs is easily a level above. That's obvs a superficial assessment and I'm uneasy about private provision but state provision is obviously creaking big time. imo we need to get away from the out of date myth that our NHS is world-beating and superior to everywhere (see also pandemic responsiveness :rolleyes:) and learn the best we can from elsewhere.

Edit - sorry way o/t but very interesting tangent I think.

[J-C]

I think he was invited to leave along with Zambernardi. No idea why.

Didn't realise he was was booted, must admit they were getting a bit heated, political chat can get like that, I hope it's not permanent and just a week or so.

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kate-forbes-missed-smacking-ban-29417548

Dodging votes seems to be the stick to beat candidates with in this leadership campaign.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kate-forbes-missed-smacking-ban-29417548

Dodging votes seems to be the stick to beat candidates with in this leadership campaign.

It's one thing Neil or Salmond going against humza saying he dodged it but a current snp msp saying she did. It's the record so might be pish, but more infighting. Although I'd doubt anyone will care about this

[One Day Soon]

Is that really much different from here? We can go private and jump waiting lists too?

If we're going to go more private then I'd prefer something more akin to the Swiss system, which is compulsory insurance and a single tier of universal provision. You get to see costs of any treatment and pay a small capped excess amount. So everyone is aware of how much benefit they're getting and how much their treatment costs.

I broke my arm there about 10 years ago and had surgery. My experience of our health system has largely been positive but theirs is easily a level above. That's obvs a superficial assessment and I'm uneasy about private provision but state provision is obviously creaking big time. imo we need to get away from the out of date myth that our NHS is world-beating and superior to everywhere (see also pandemic responsiveness :rolleyes:) and learn the best we can from elsewhere.

Edit - sorry way o/t but very interesting tangent I think.


There are absolutely no circumstances in which I would support a structured two tier health system like Ireland's and in fact their long term aim seems to be a universal system like our NHS. Throw a retreat from the universal provision given by the NHS into the mix of the other attacks on long standing norms in this country and we really are saying everything is up for free market grabs.

[JeMeSouviens]

There are absolutely no circumstances in which I would support a structured two tier health system like Ireland's and in fact their long term aim seems to be a universal system like our NHS. Throw a retreat from the universal provision given by the NHS into the mix of the other attacks on long standing norms in this country and we really are saying everything is up for free market grabs.

Neither would I but don't we already have one?

[He's here!]

It's one thing Neil or Salmond going against humza saying he dodged it but a current snp msp saying she did. It's the record so might be pish, but more infighting. Although I'd doubt anyone will care about this

She's not made herself any friends among (as I think you put it) the 'gravy train cultists' for putting the boot into the 'medicority' of a party which nevertheless kept itself so decisively in power for so long so I'm not surprised there's sniping from within.

I doubt many will care either, but anything which keeps the infighting front and centre is fine by me.

[One Day Soon]

Neither would I but don't we already have one?

No, we have a system of universal provision which is free at the point of need. Our challenge is making it work more efficiently which requires more staff, better organisation, more facilities and a completely different approach to front loading prevention in health in order to both reduce demand and spread its age profile.

If wealthy people want to opt out of that by going private and reduce demand on the NHS at no detriment to the NHS system that is up to them. As soon as we move to any kind of two tiered model the NHS is finished.

[One Day Soon]

I think he was invited to leave along with Zambernardi. No idea why.

I don't think they were the only ones. I always think there is something a little strange/mysterious about the 'here one day, gone the next' nature of message board evictions but that's just how it is.

[Ozyhibby]

There are absolutely no circumstances in which I would support a structured two tier health system like Ireland's and in fact their long term aim seems to be a universal system like our NHS. Throw a retreat from the universal provision given by the NHS into the mix of the other attacks on long standing norms in this country and we really are saying everything is up for free market grabs.

We are already there. My mum paid for an operation at the end of last year rather than wait a couple of years.


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[Ozyhibby]

No, we have a system of universal provision which is free at the point of need. Our challenge is making it work more efficiently which requires more staff, better organisation, more facilities and a completely different approach to front loading prevention in health in order to both reduce demand and spread its age profile.

If wealthy people want to opt out of that by going private and reduce demand on the NHS at no detriment to the NHS system that is up to them. As soon as we move to any kind of two tiered model the NHS is finished.

Does going private help the nhs? The country only has so many doctors and it’s the same one who work in both systems.
All that happens is you buy yourself a spot at the front of the q and the poor people get put back one spot.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think they were the only ones. I always think there is something a little strange/mysterious about the 'here one day, gone the next' nature of message board evictions but that's just how it is.

In reality there is plenty of warning, mostly kept private but there has been plenty in public on the HG too, before Madame G comes.:chop: (Any excuse to deploy my all time fave smiley.)

[JeMeSouviens]

No, we have a system of universal provision which is free at the point of need. Our challenge is making it work more efficiently which requires more staff, better organisation, more facilities and a completely different approach to front loading prevention in health in order to both reduce demand and spread its age profile.

If wealthy people want to opt out of that by going private and reduce demand on the NHS at no detriment to the NHS system that is up to them. As soon as we move to any kind of two tiered model the NHS is finished.

Where do you think the private staff come from?

[Ozyhibby]

In reality there is plenty of warning, mostly kept private but there has been plenty in public on the HG too, before Madame G comes.:chop: (Any excuse to deploy my all time fave smiley.)

I doubt anyone is surprised.


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[One Day Soon]

We are already there. My mum paid for an operation at the end of last year rather than wait a couple of years.


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That's been the case since before the NHS was set up and continuously throughout its existence. Reducing universal healthcare would be an altogether different direction.

[One Day Soon]

Does going private help the nhs? The country only has so many doctors and it’s the same one who work in both systems.
All that happens is you buy yourself a spot at the front of the q and the poor people get put back one spot.


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Yes it does if it reduces demand on the NHS and helps shorten waiting lists. The same people do work in both systems but when they are selling their labour in the private system they are doing so 'out of hours' - ie they aren't selling their NHS time. There are plenty of employed other types of specialists who do homers in their own time.

[One Day Soon]

In reality there is plenty of warning, mostly kept private but there has been plenty in public on the HG too, before Madame G comes.:chop: (Any excuse to deploy my all time fave smiley.)


Now I want to know more. How does it work, is there some kind of three strikes and you're beheaded type of system?

[One Day Soon]

Where do you think the private staff come from?

See above, they are mostly NHS staff doing extra hours in the private sector in their own time. But that is largely beside the point, the key here is about having a universal system which provides free care at the point of need to anyone who requires it. That's very different from a system that says 'show me your insurance certificate first'.

[Smartie]

That's been the case since before the NHS was set up and continuously throughout its existence. Reducing universal healthcare would be an altogether different direction.

It's been done by stealth and we're already there.

There are aspects of the NHS that still function very well indeed but there are others that simply aren't fit for purpose, and it's the existence of a two tiered system that allows many patients to get treatment at anything like an acceptable standard and timescale.

It's an uncomfortable truth, an uncomfortable conversation is going to be necessary and I don't think for a second that "Starmer's Labour" will be the solution.

Actually, it might be, but it won't be via adequately funded universal healthcare.

[Ozyhibby]

See above, they are mostly NHS staff doing extra hours in the private sector in their own time. But that is largely beside the point, the key here is about having a universal system which provides free care at the point of need to anyone who requires it. That's very different from a system that says 'show me your insurance certificate first'.

Nobody wants that system. You are arguing for a two tier system though.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Now I want to know more. How does it work, is there some kind of three strikes and you're beheaded type of system?

I don't know the detail but I have picked up an "infraction" for being lazy and expecting the swear filter to do the asterisking for me. :rolleyes:

There have been numerous public warnings re personal bickering on threads on the HG for months now (not involving me that I can recollect I hasten to add!)

I admin on the original Hibs internet "forum", the hibs-list (since 1995!), very amenable apart from the tumbleweed these days, but had some feisty moments in days gone by. It's a thankless task done very well here, imo.

[Santa Cruz]

I doubt anyone is surprised.


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Back on topic (there is a seperate thread for the NHS), the hustings tonight, are you asking a question?

On a different note, I see Darren McGarvey is bringing his tour to Edinburgh tonight too, I'd vote for him even if he was my SNP MSP.

[Ozyhibby]

Back on topic (there is a seperate thread for the NHS), the hustings tonight, are you asking a question?

On a different note, I see Darren McGarvey is bringing his tour to Edinburgh tonight too, I'd vote for him even if he was my SNP MSP.

I won’t be asking a question. Will just observe. If it did it would likely be ‘why the **** are we still talking about social issues while the economy is tanking’?
Will be interesting to take temperature of the room though. No clue what snp membership is like. Difficult to say who is winning or losing.

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[Santa Cruz]

I won’t be asking a question. Will just observe. If it did it would likely be ‘why the **** are we still talking about social issues while the economy is tanking’?


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You should just go for it and ask anyway :greengrin

[AgentDaleCooper]

Beat me to it. Start of a difficult conversation?

Really easy conversation IMO - the two tier system sounds awful, unless you can afford private insurance. It talks about reduced waiting times because of people going private...but what about the rest of the people stuck in the queue?

Privatisation is not the answer, at any level. Forbes wants to bring more of it in, whilst keeping it free at point of access - thus greasing the way for further privatisation by stealth.

The top line figure of life expectancy doesn't tell the whole story - i don't know what the figures are my self, bit i'd be intetested to know how it pans out across different demographics in Ireland.

[Ozyhibby]

Really easy conversation IMO - the two tier system sounds awful, unless you can afford private insurance. It talks about reduced waiting times because of people going private...but what about the rest of the people stuck in the queue?

Privatisation is not the answer, at any level. Forbes wants to bring more of it in, whilst keeping it free at point of access - thus greasing the way for further privatisation by stealth.

The top line figure of life expectancy doesn't tell the whole story - i don't know what the figures are my self, bit i'd be intetested to know how it pans out across different demographics in Ireland.

Two tier system is what we have now. An increasing amount of well paid jobs come with private healthcare as part of the package. This months gdp figures were boosted by an increase in people signing up for private healthcare.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Two tier system is what we have now. An increasing amount of well paid jobs come with private healthcare as part of the package. This months gdp figures were boosted by an increase in people signing up for private healthcare.


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that money spent on private healthcare should be going to the NHS. I appreciate that I probably lack nuance on this issue, but I know nurses and midwives in my family see the main problems as being lack of staff retention, leading to understaffing - it's a problem that literally needs money thrown at it, at least at the front line. For all his faults, Yousaf has done more than anyone else in Britain to achieve that. Of course there are systemic problems as well, but again, my understanding is that this stems from an increasingly bureaucratic, corporatist approach from management. Private health care run by corporations aren't going to solve that.

GDP is an outmoded metric. It completely fails to account for inequality.

[J-C]

that money spent on private healthcare should be going to the NHS. I appreciate that I probably lack nuance on this issue, but I know nurses and midwives in my family see the main problems as being lack of staff retention, leading to understaffing - it's a problem that literally needs money thrown at it, at least at the front line. For all his faults, Yousaf has done more than anyone else in Britain to achieve that. Of course there are systemic problems as well, but again, my understanding is that this stems from an increasingly bureaucratic, corporatist approach from management. Private health care run by corporations aren't going to solve that.

GDP is an outmoded metric. It completely fails to account for inequality.

What money are you taking about, private health care? The people using it are already paying into NHS via their NI contributions, similarly private education,these people pay twice.

[Stairway 2 7]

that money spent on private healthcare should be going to the NHS. I appreciate that I probably lack nuance on this issue, but I know nurses and midwives in my family see the main problems as being lack of staff retention, leading to understaffing - it's a problem that literally needs money thrown at it, at least at the front line. For all his faults, Yousaf has done more than anyone else in Britain to achieve that. Of course there are systemic problems as well, but again, my understanding is that this stems from an increasingly bureaucratic, corporatist approach from management. Private health care run by corporations aren't going to solve that.

GDP is an outmoded metric. It completely fails to account for inequality.

The Scottish budget has risen with inflation the last ten years. Every year the NHS staff have been given a real time wage cut. We know you like Humza but make it make sense

[AgentDaleCooper]

The Scottish budget has risen with inflation the last ten years. Every year the NHS staff have been given a real time wage cut. We know you like Humza but make it make sense

I genuinely don't like Humza, a just think Kate Forbes would be an unmitigated disaster.

Yousaf is the best of a bad bunch, in terms of this leadership election, and in terms of the UK.

Whoever wins isn't going to be there long, and won't be leading us to independence - I just really, really don't want Forbes to open the door for more regressive bigots in the future. I've used that word repeatedly - but no one seems to be bothered by her completely equivocatory answers last night on these issues. Her beliefs are aligned with the Trumpian Christan right, and that is not a stone that we should be lifting in Scotland - what's underneath it ain't pretty.

[Stairway 2 7]

I genuinely don't like Humza, a just think Kate Forbes would be an unmitigated disaster.

Yousaf is the best of a bad bunch, in terms of this leadership election, and in terms of the UK.

Whoever wins isn't going to be there long, and won't be leading us to independence - I just really, really don't want Forbes to open the door for more regressive bigots in the future. I've used that word repeatedly - but no one seems to be bothered by her completely equivocatory answers last night on these issues. Her beliefs are aligned with the Trumpian Christan right, and that is not a stone that we should be lifting in Scotland - what's underneath it ain't pretty.

I think all three are pretty hopeless although I like Forbes's left wing economics. Yousaf’s been hopeless at his jobs as you'd expect a private school boy who hadn't had a job. Forbes's views are ridiculous but I think the parties aren't and there is zero chance of regressive policies being voted in.

Only Forbes has a chance of independence and I think being together with the uk is pulling back Scotland more than anything else

[One Day Soon]

Nobody wants that system. You are arguing for a two tier system though.


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I'm absolutely not but feel free to try and explain why you think I am.

[grunt]

Whoever wins isn't going to be there long, and won't be leading us to independence - I just really, really don't want Forbes to open the door for more regressive bigots in the future. I've used that word repeatedly - but no one seems to be bothered by her completely equivocatory answers last night on these issues. Her beliefs are aligned with the Trumpian Christan right, and that is not a stone that we should be lifting in Scotland - what's underneath it ain't pretty.
Deary me. Do you have any evidence of actions taken by her during her time as an MSP that have demonstrated her "regressive" beliefs? Are there any acts in Scottish law that she has created which reflect "Trumpian Christian right wing beliefs"?

[Stairway 2 7]

Christine Grahame comes out in support of Forbes, surprised and first of the inner circle to deviate

[One Day Soon]

Christine Grahame comes out in support of Forbes, surprised and first of the inner circle to deviate

She 's NOT a Sturgeon fan so no surprise she won't be backing continuity Sturgeon for FM.

[superfurryhibby]

I think all three are pretty hopeless although I like Forbes's left wing economics. Yousaf’s been hopeless at his jobs as you'd expect a private school boy who hadn't had a job. Forbes's views are ridiculous but I think the parties aren't and there is zero chance of regressive policies being voted in.

Only Forbes has a chance of independence and I think being together with the uk is pulling back Scotland more than anything else

I'm wondering which left wing economic approaches apply to Forbes ? She is politically conservative and far from left leaning.

Forbes will be slaughtered for some of her beliefs. My own view is that there is no place for religious beliefs influencing political agendas in 21st century Scotland. The country has become increasingly secular in my lifetime and the influence of the Church on wider society has diminished, all for the good.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm wondering which left wing economic approaches apply to Forbes ? She is politically conservative and far from left leaning.

Forbes will be slaughtered for some of her beliefs. My own view is that there is no place for religious beliefs influencing political agendas in 21st century Scotland. The country has become increasingly secular in my lifetime and the influence of the Church on wider society has diminished, all for the good.

Which of her policy positions is right leaning?


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[superfurryhibby]

Which of her policy positions is right leaning?


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The whole of the National Strategy for Economic Transformation


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/kate-forbes-economic-agenda-dangerous-snp-leadership-race-scotland-conservative/

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/03/why-the-snps-economic-strategy-offers-continuity-not-transformation

Interesting takes of Forbes's right wing credentials from two very opposing views.

[grunt]

The whole of the National Strategy for Economic Transformation

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/kate-forbes-economic-agenda-dangerous-snp-leadership-race-scotland-conservative/

Don't you think an independent Scotland would need "growing exports, increasing foreign investment, and boosting the flow of “internationally mobile finance”"?


The meat and bones reads much more like a 1990s IMF report, underpinned by economic modelling (https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotland-national-strategy-economic-transformation-evidence-paper/) that reveals three primary “programmes of action”: growing exports, increasing foreign investment, and boosting the flow of “internationally mobile finance”.

[marinello59]

Don't you think an independent Scotland would need "growing exports, increasing foreign investment, and boosting the flow of “internationally mobile finance”"?

Nothing there would look out of place in a Tory manifesto.

[grunt]

Nothing there would look out of place in a Tory manifesto.How do you think we'll live if we don't grow exports? Perhaps you want us to be like England, closing our doors to foreigners? No exports, no foreign investment?

[marinello59]

How do you think we'll live if we don't grow exports? Perhaps you want us to be like England, closing our doors to foreigners? No exports, no foreign investment?

There’s nothing there about freedom of movement is there?
I’m not defending Tory policies, I ain’t gonna pretend somebody is left wing when they’re not though. Everything there would slot perfectly in to a ‘business friendly’ Tory manifesto.

[Ozyhibby]

There’s nothing there about freedom of movement is there?
I’m not defending Tory policies, I ain’t gonna pretend somebody is left wing when they’re not though. Everything there would slot perfectly in to a ‘business friendly’ Tory manifesto.

Tories grow exports? Pull the other one.[emoji6][emoji23]


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[marinello59]

Tories grow exports? Pull the other one.[emoji6][emoji23]


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You ignoring the rest of it then. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Nothing there would look out of place in a Tory manifesto.

That's projection. Both articles were of little substance and presumption. What about the actual policies she has put forward I'm sure you'll agree they are nothing like right wing? To be fair the Stuc did say they didn't go far enough and were more of the same, but more of the same is a world away from down south

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/economic-plan-signals-major-change-in-scottish-government-strategy#:~:text=The%20National%20Strategy%20for%2 0Economic,people%20and%20culture%3B%20new%20market

The strategy, developed in conjunction with an advisory council comprised of business leaders, academics, economists and trade unionists, would see the appointment of a “chief entrepreneurship officer” in the Scottish government. A new national system of “pre-scaler hubs” would also be launched to help new businesses with high growth prospects access support and advice as well as a new “national challenge competition for economic transformation”.

Forbes also announced that a ‘fair work’ condition would apply to future Scottish government grants - requiring recipients to pay the real living wage – and promised to establish a “centre of expertise in equality and human rights” within the administration. She said the employability system would be simplified by implementing a “no one left behind” approach, focused on giving individuals the right support to help improve their life chances.


From the summer, all government grants will require recipients to pay all staff at least the living wage and include “effective” employee representation

The strategy will see the creation of an “investor panel” led by the First Minister to raise funds for net zero projects, with Ms Forbes urging businesses to “seize the opportunity” to transition away from carbon-emitting practices.

[grunt]

There’s nothing there about freedom of movement is there?
No there isn't, it's a document about Economic Strategy.

The Population Strategy document is here https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotland-future-opportunities-challenges-scotlands-changing-population/pages/7/

[Stairway 2 7]

There’s nothing there about freedom of movement is there?
I’m not defending Tory policies, I ain’t gonna pretend somebody is left wing when they’re not though. Everything there would slot perfectly in to a ‘business friendly’ Tory manifesto.

That's nonsense. No tory manifesto would urge rejoining the EU a push for net zero and a acceptance of the real living wage. I don't think it's left wing but it's not tory, just as the centre right Starmer government wouldn't be tory either tbf

[marinello59]

That's nonsense. No tory manifesto would urge rejoining the EU a push for net zero and an acceptance of the real living wage. I don't think it's left wing but it's not tory, just as the centre right Starmer government wouldn't be tory either tbf

Then we almost agree. I was making no comment on whether it is good policy or not. It certainly isn’t left wing though as some are claiming. It may not have fitted into Johnson’s manifesto but would it really have looked out of place in Cameron’s?

[marinello59]

No there isn't, it's a document about Economic Strategy.

The Population Strategy document is here https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotland-future-opportunities-challenges-scotlands-changing-population/pages/7/

I was wondering where the closing doors to foreigners comment had sprung from, that’s all. I’m sure you didn’t really want to put words in my mouth, I can speak enough crap without your help. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Just arrived and the amount of pro Humza literature and campaign materials here alone must have blown through his £5000 budget.
Everyone being given pro Humza leaflets when they sit down.

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[grunt]

I was wondering where the closing doors to foreigners comment had sprung from, that’s all. I’m sure you didn’t really want to put words in my mouth, I can speak enough crap without your help. :greengrin
I'm sorry, the "closing doors" comment was my take on the thought that increasing exports and attracting foreign investments were Tory policies and to be avoided. If we don't increase exports and attract inward investment we'll get nowhere.

[marinello59]

Just arrived and the amount of pro Humza literature and campaign materials here alone must have blown through his £5000 budget.
Everyone being given pro Humza leaflets when they sit down.

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You at the hustings? Will be interesting to get your take on the feel in the room.

[Ozyhibby]

You at the hustings? Will be interesting to get your take on the feel in the room.

Average age of the room must be about 50. Average age outside at the door making a lot of pro Humza noise was about 30 but only about 10 of them.


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[marinello59]

Average age of the room must be about 50. Average age outside at the door making a lot of pro Humza noise was about 30 but only about 10 of them.


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How’s the reaction been for them all? Always a different feel actually being there than you get watching remotely.

[Ozyhibby]

How’s the reaction been for them all? Always a different feel actually being there than you get watching remotely.

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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[Hibs4185]

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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Great feedback thanks!

[marinello59]

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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Thanks for that. I think we forget that politicians are just normal decent human beings and behind the scenes they all get on better than we think. I guess a lot of what has been said about each other will be understood as part of the game and forgiven.

[J-C]

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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Thanks for that Ozy.

[superfurryhibby]

That's projection. Both articles were of little substance and presumption. What about the actual policies she has put forward I'm sure you'll agree they are nothing like right wing? To be fair the Stuc did say they didn't go far enough and were more of the same, but more of the same is a world away from down south

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/economic-plan-signals-major-change-in-scottish-government-strategy#:~:text=The%20National%20Strategy%20for%2 0Economic,people%20and%20culture%3B%20new%20market

The strategy, developed in conjunction with an advisory council comprised of business leaders, academics, economists and trade unionists, would see the appointment of a “chief entrepreneurship officer” in the Scottish government. A new national system of “pre-scaler hubs” would also be launched to help new businesses with high growth prospects access support and advice as well as a new “national challenge competition for economic transformation”.

Forbes also announced that a ‘fair work’ condition would apply to future Scottish government grants - requiring recipients to pay the real living wage – and promised to establish a “centre of expertise in equality and human rights” within the administration. She said the employability system would be simplified by implementing a “no one left behind” approach, focused on giving individuals the right support to help improve their life chances.


From the summer, all government grants will require recipients to pay all staff at least the living wage and include “effective” employee representation

The strategy will see the creation of an “investor panel” led by the First Minister to raise funds for net zero projects, with Ms Forbes urging businesses to “seize the opportunity” to transition away from carbon-emitting practices.

The New Statesman piece was actually pretty substantial, not sure you really read it if you think otherwise.

[Stairway 2 7]

The New Statesman piece was actually pretty substantial, not sure you really read it if you think otherwise.

I unfortunately did. Bit of a hatchet job with mentions of irn bru and quotes from your favourite Maggie Chapman. It's full of innuendo and presumption. She says this but really means this ect. Just a man and his "sources" telling her what she doesn't say but he presumes

[AgentDaleCooper]

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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Good post, thanks :aok:

Regan always makes me imagine that Malcolm Tucker is going to be screaming at her in the taxi home.

[neil7908]

Impressed with both Yousaf and Forbes. Regan not quite at their level as a communicator but she did make some good points(once I worked out what she was meaning).
Crowd in the hall was pretty respectful of all three candidates. I would say the applause for Forbes and Yousaf was about the same for all their answers. Yousaf had a small group at the back who gave him a bit more of a cheer at the beginning but after that it was pretty equal.
Only one LGBT question all night and Forbes answer was applauded as much as the other two.
From tonight I would say I have no idea who wins out of Forbes and Yousaf. And I’m relaxed about either.
I’d be worried if Regan won.
One thing I did notice is that Yousaf and Forbes get on better than is made out in media. I could see them in corridor before they came out and they were laughing and joking with each other in a way that wasn’t just being polite. Whoever wins, if they are smart, makes the other their deputy and most important minister.
On the whole impressed with the way it went.


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Can Forbes appoint Humza into a prominent role at this point? She's just trashed his performance in literally every role he's had in Government. How does she then bring him back in?

[Ozyhibby]

Can Forbes appoint Humza into a prominent role at this point? She's just trashed his performance in literally every role he's had in Government. How does she then bring him back in?

And he’s trashed her as well. That’s politics.
She praised him heavily last night as well saying he was an amazing communicator. If both of them haven’t developed a thick skin by now then they probably are in the wrong game.
There are plenty example of politicians going on to work with former rivals for the leadership.


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[archie]

And he’s trashed her as well. That’s politics.
She praised him heavily last night as well saying he was an amazing communicator. If both of them haven’t developed a thick skin by now then they probably are in the wrong game.
There are plenty example of politicians going on to work with former rivals for the leadership.


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Well one way to take out disgruntled rivals is to give them a job. The old LBJ 'tent' argument.

[superfurryhibby]

I unfortunately did. Bit of a hatchet job with mentions of irn bru and quotes from your favourite Maggie Chapman. It's full of innuendo and presumption. She says this but really means this ect. Just a man and his "sources" telling her what she doesn't say but he presumes

Nonsense, it’s a writer offering analysis of her economic policy. The same as any other critique. Of course it their opinion, but it’s not just like they made up of the National Strategy or the views of the many different groups and individuals it quotes.

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman is until I read the article. That’s you making assumptions and even inventing things again. Not sure why you would think she would be my favourite, or what your even trying to say with that kind of comment or why you would bother?

“As the STUC noted in its criticism of the strategy, there is little mention of the “foundational economy” – things like transport, housing and healthcare, where many people work and experience the economy most directly. As the economist Laurie MacFarlane argued in his analysis, for all the talk of entrepreneurship there is not much appreciation of the role of the interventionist “entrepreneurial state” – despite the involvement in the commission of the economist Mariana Mazzucato, who has popularised the term”

My initial point was to highlight that Forbes is far from being left wing in her views.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nonsense, it’s a writer offering analysis of her economic policy. The same as any other critique. Of course it their opinion, but it’s not just like they made up of the National Strategy or the views of the many different groups and individuals it quotes.

I had no idea who Maggie Chapman is until I read the article. That’s you making assumptions and even inventing things again. Not sure why you would think she would be my favourite, or what your even trying to say with that kind of comment or why you would bother?

“As the STUC noted in its criticism of the strategy, there is little mention of the “foundational economy” – things like transport, housing and healthcare, where many people work and experience the economy most directly. As the economist Laurie MacFarlane argued in his analysis, for all the talk of entrepreneurship there is not much appreciation of the role of the interventionist “entrepreneurial state” – despite the involvement in the commission of the economist Mariana Mazzucato, who has popularised the term”

My initial point was to highlight that Forbes is far from being left wing in her views.

Its his interpretation she would disagree, not much more can be said really. I don't think she's particularly left, probably left of Starmer but he's centre right. But the point I'm making is they are definitely not tory.

I was being sarcastic with Maggie Chapman I thought you'd remember her from the trans thread. She was the one wrongly saying everyone who disagreed with gra is transphobic and that 6 year olds should be able to transition, nutter

[Hibs4185]

Forbes is the only candidate I can see that will further the independence case.

Yousaf….more of the same
Regan…..not sure but seems heavily linked with Salmon which can’t be a good think for winning the no voters.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Forbes is the only candidate I can see that will further the independence case.

Yousaf….more of the same
Regan…..not sure but seems heavily linked with Salmon which can’t be a good think for winning the no voters.

this is the perception that so many have that is just based on wishful thinking, because the choices are so rubbish. you get people saying that she's left wing, then explaining that they mean she might be slightly left of Starmer, which is still centre-right...then denying this is a shift to the right. I've seen one substantial policy that could be described as left, and that's the requirement that businesses in receipt of government funding pay the real living wage. Great - but other than that it's all just rhetoric. It's either cynical or naive, i don't know which, though I suspect the latter, as I reckon she's probably a well meaning person - but saying 'the reason i get up every morning is to end poverty' - then just banging on about small businesses and barely mentioning taxation, wealth re-distribution, land reform...there isn't enough substance to do anything other than interpret what she has said, but to my eyes, this is soft-Tory stuff.

she's an absolute loose cannon in terms of the stuff she says publicly, thus far including: saying she would have voted against gay marriage; saying that children being born out of wedlock is 'wrong'; comprehensively ****ing in her own nest by slating the SNP's record as mediocre, and, rightly or wrongly, accusing Yousaf as having failed in every department in which he has worked - so whoever wins, we know what all of the oppositions' campaign leaflets are going to look like next election time. She's been utterly equivocal when asked various other straight forward questions regarding gay rights, the monarchy and refugees.

She's already had to roll back on two of her boldest cock-ups, i.e. the gay marriage issues and slating her own party's record.

I think she's very naive, but has absolutely supreme confidence because she literally thinks she's acting out God's will.

I get why people want to see her as a good option, but she is a seriously unsafe pair of hands, and if she wins, it's going to blow up in everyone's faces.

[Stairway 2 7]

this is the perception that so many have that is just based on wishful thinking, because the choices are so rubbish. you get people saying that she's left wing, then explaining that they mean she might be slightly left of Starmer, which is still centre-right...then denying this is a shift to the right. I've seen one substantial policy that could be described as left, and that's the requirement that businesses in receipt of government funding pay the real living wage. Great - but other than that it's all just rhetoric. It's either cynical or naive, i don't know which, though I suspect the latter, as I reckon she's probably a well meaning person - but saying 'the reason i get up every morning is to end poverty' - then just banging on about small businesses and barely mentioning taxation, wealth re-distribution, land reform...there isn't enough substance to do anything other than interpret what she has said, but to my eyes, this is soft-Tory stuff.

she's an absolute loose cannon in terms of the stuff she says publicly, thus far including: saying she would have voted against gay marriage; saying that children being born out of wedlock is 'wrong'; comprehensively ****ing in her own nest by slating the SNP's record as mediocre, and, rightly or wrongly, accusing Yousaf as having failed in every department in which he has worked - so whoever wins, we know what all of the oppositions' campaign leaflets are going to look like next election time. She's been utterly equivocal when asked various other straight forward questions regarding gay rights, the monarchy and refugees.

She's already had to roll back on two of her boldest cock-ups, i.e. the gay marriage issues and slating her own party's record.

I think she's very naive, but has absolutely supreme confidence because she literally thinks she's acting out God's will.

I get why people want to see her as a good option, but she is a seriously unsafe pair of hands, and if she wins, it's going to blow up in everyone's faces.

We get it you don't like her but I'd bet your priorities lie in issues like the GRC whereas most people put the economy and cost of living way out infront. You said she's right wing and like a tory but never actually backed it up. Her main policy announcement is more left than the previous snp fiscal plan, so a shift to the left if anything I think

[AgentDaleCooper]

We get it you don't like her but I'd bet your priorities lie in issues like the GRC whereas most people put the economy and cost of living way out infront. You said she's right wing and like a tory but never actually backed it up. Her main policy announcement is more left than the previous snp fiscal plan, so a shift to the left if anything I think

well you're absolutely wrong about my priorities. My main concerns are definitely the NHS, social care, land reform, housing and the cost of living. R.e. the GRC, if someone came along and said 'I think there's clearly issues we need to deal with, but that should be decided by us and not by Westminster, so we'll look at it again in Holyrood' then I'd be fine with that, so long as the rest of their platform stood up.

All we've really got to base things on is that one paper published last year, which seems to be very open to interpretation. To me, what is striking are the things it doesn't contain, and the things that Forbes always seems to equivocate on. As noted above, there are two publications from very different view points that interpret her paper as being a shift to the right.

Folk keep saying that the party wouldn't allow for a shift to the right anyway, but there's been stuff in the press that suggest that could be a bit complacent - https://www.thenational.scot/news/23347351.snp-membership-not-socially-liberal-might-assumed/
The SNP is a very broad church, which can be a strength, but also a danger.

Would you not at least agree that she has put her foot in her mouth quite spectacularly on at least two occasions in the past couple of weeks, and has had to publicly roll back, or explain (rather, explain away) the comments?

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64925333

Flynn throws his weight behind Yousef.

[Ozyhibby]

this is the perception that so many have that is just based on wishful thinking, because the choices are so rubbish. you get people saying that she's left wing, then explaining that they mean she might be slightly left of Starmer, which is still centre-right...then denying this is a shift to the right. I've seen one substantial policy that could be described as left, and that's the requirement that businesses in receipt of government funding pay the real living wage. Great - but other than that it's all just rhetoric. It's either cynical or naive, i don't know which, though I suspect the latter, as I reckon she's probably a well meaning person - but saying 'the reason i get up every morning is to end poverty' - then just banging on about small businesses and barely mentioning taxation, wealth re-distribution, land reform...there isn't enough substance to do anything other than interpret what she has said, but to my eyes, this is soft-Tory stuff.

she's an absolute loose cannon in terms of the stuff she says publicly, thus far including: saying she would have voted against gay marriage; saying that children being born out of wedlock is 'wrong'; comprehensively ****ing in her own nest by slating the SNP's record as mediocre, and, rightly or wrongly, accusing Yousaf as having failed in every department in which he has worked - so whoever wins, we know what all of the oppositions' campaign leaflets are going to look like next election time. She's been utterly equivocal when asked various other straight forward questions regarding gay rights, the monarchy and refugees.

She's already had to roll back on two of her boldest cock-ups, i.e. the gay marriage issues and slating her own party's record.

I think she's very naive, but has absolutely supreme confidence because she literally thinks she's acting out God's will.

I get why people want to see her as a good option, but she is a seriously unsafe pair of hands, and if she wins, it's going to blow up in everyone's faces.

Increasing the child payment? Increasing carers wages to £15ph?
Are those right wing policies?


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Increasing the child payment? Increasing carers wages to £15ph?
Are those right wing policies?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

is she on the record stating that those are two of her policies? if so then that's great.

[Smartie]

Is it possible for her to be particularly right or left wing?

By that I mean that the budget comes as a lump from Westminster, the significance of left and right being the decisions that are made re fiscal policy there determining the size of that budget. I acknowledge that there are some small levers that can be pulled re income tax.

Obviously the left and right bit might be how much she chooses to exercise the discretion regarding that tax, and I suppose whether or not she wants to go down the "small boats" messaging route (or similar) to be re-elected.

But is the role not mainly about spending the spending money? Is it possible to do that in either a left or right wing way with it being a pre-ordained amount? Even if she is "right wing" she's not exactly going to make significant cuts, go for small government and send money back to Westminster, is she?

Or does the left/ right bit refer more to what her vision of an independent Scotland might look like?

[Ozyhibby]

Is it possible for her to be particularly right or left wing?

By that I mean that the budget comes as a lump from Westminster, the significance of left and right being the decisions that are made re fiscal policy there determining the size of that budget. I acknowledge that there are some small levers that can be pulled re income tax.

Obviously the left and right bit might be how much she chooses to exercise the discretion regarding that tax, and I suppose whether or not she wants to go down the "small boats" messaging route (or similar) to be re-elected.

But is the role not mainly about spending the spending money? Is it possible to do that in either a left or right wing way with it being a pre-ordained amount? Even if she is "right wing" she's not exactly going to make significant cuts, go for small government and send money back to Westminster, is she?

Or does the left/ right bit refer more to what her vision of an independent Scotland might look like?

I think it’s just a lazy way of projecting an image into a politician. There is no evidence she is right wing.
And people do it with all politicians of all parties.


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[superfurryhibby]

Is it possible for her to be particularly right or left wing?

By that I mean that the budget comes as a lump from Westminster, the significance of left and right being the decisions that are made re fiscal policy there determining the size of that budget. I acknowledge that there are some small levers that can be pulled re income tax.

Obviously the left and right bit might be how much she chooses to exercise the discretion regarding that tax, and I suppose whether or not she wants to go down the "small boats" messaging route (or similar) to be re-elected.

But is the role not mainly about spending the spending money? Is it possible to do that in either a left or right wing way with it being a pre-ordained amount? Even if she is "right wing" she's not exactly going to make significant cuts, go for small government and send money back to Westminster, is she?

Or does the left/ right bit refer more to what her vision of an independent Scotland might look like?

I don’t think the political outlook of a potential First Minister should be dictated by the limitations imposed by the budget “ given”by Westminister.

Imagine a more radical SNP agenda, say comparable to the manifestos of a Corbyn led Labour Party.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don’t think the political outlook of a potential First Minister should be dictated by the limitations imposed by the budget “ given”by Westminister.

Imagine a more radical SNP agenda, say comparable to the manifestos of a Corbyn led Labour Party.


Well it is certainy true that Corbyn and McDonell created a manifesto that didn't take account of the budget :greengrin

[heretoday]

Nicola Sturgeon has left a real mess behind.
Thanks doll.

[Stairway 2 7]

The mail saying 78,000 members will decide our first minister. Almost 50,000 down from the highs of 125k. Brutal if true. The rumours were GRC had decimated the party numbers but this would be worse than that.

[Stairway 2 7]

One poll means nothing but that's three polls in a row showing humza is much more disliked than Forbes. Snp also polling poorly

https://archive.ph/DqWRO

[superfurryhibby]

Increasing the child payment? Increasing carers wages to £15ph?
Are those right wing policies?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Care to link those statements to something tangible?

What carers are you referring to? Most staff in the social care sectors are in fact social care workers , employed by private companies. How does a government determine the wages for one group of workers in the private sector?

As for raising child benefit payments, I would be more impressed if a future First Minister said that this would be means tested and as a result the lower paid received a higher rate than now, at the expense of higher income families who don’t need it.

Oh hang on, you must be confused, Child Benefit isn’t devolved to the Scottish Government��
https://www.gov.scot/publications/responsibility-for-benefits-overview/

Same with the likes of prescription charges and eye tests. Faced with an economic crisis, I personally would be happy to pay for these services. They should be means tested.

[Ozyhibby]

One poll means nothing but that's three polls in a row showing humza is much more disliked than Forbes. Snp also polling poorly

https://archive.ph/DqWRO

That’s normal for a leadership campaign though. New leader once chosen usually gets a bit of a boost as well. (Except Liz truss)


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64926319

Swinney joins Flynn in backing Yousef.

[Ozyhibby]

The mail saying 78,000 members will decide our first minister. Almost 50,000 down from the highs of 125k. Brutal if true. The rumours were GRC had decimated the party numbers but this would be worse than that.

I think the high was in 2015 post the referendum. It has been falling since then and I doubt the GRA had that much effect.
Not sure why but SNP membership doesn’t just carry over every year? I have to remember to renew mine? A couple of times I’ve not been a member for a few months as I forget to do it. I usually just pay the annual fee once so maybe it’s different if you do a monthly payment. I’ve always felt that’s a sure fire way to lose members over time.


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[Stairway 2 7]

That’s normal for a leadership campaign though. New leader once chosen usually gets a bit of a boost as well. (Except Liz truss)


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Yousaf would have an unprecedented low approval rating. Knowing the route of travel of leaders, he's literally no chance.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think the high was in 2015 post the referendum. It has been falling since then and I doubt the GRA had that much effect.
Not sure why but SNP membership doesn’t just carry over every year? I have to remember to renew mine? A couple of times I’ve not been a member for a few months as I forget to do it. I usually just pay the annual fee once so maybe it’s different if you do a monthly payment. I’ve always felt that’s a sure fire way to lose members over time.


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If its not grc it has to be Sturgeon or what is the reason for a sharp unprecedented decline from the rumoured 105k last year.

[He's here!]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/take-a-stand-and-deliver/

Ash Regan takes to Wings. She must presumably be their favoured candidate. Is that a help or a hindrance to her?

[He's here!]

If its not grc it has to be Sturgeon or what is the reason for a sharp unprecedented decline from the rumoured 105k last year.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/5389483/snp-membership-party-lost-way-campbell-gunn-opinion/

I used to know this guy many years ago. This was written just before Sturgeon quit but is perhaps quite a good overview of why membership has been on the slide (ie a general fracturing of the party rather than one specific issue).

[superfurryhibby]

I think the high was in 2015 post the referendum. It has been falling since then and I doubt the GRA had that much effect.
Not sure why but SNP membership doesn’t just carry over every year? I have to remember to renew mine? A couple of times I’ve not been a member for a few months as I forget to do it. I usually just pay the annual fee once so maybe it’s different if you do a monthly payment. I’ve always felt that’s a sure fire way to lose members over time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The record membership levels were in 2019. Since then we’ve had the polemic of how the SNP managed Covid and the GRA debacle, as well as their failings to address a failing NHS and Education.

You still never bothered to answer my point about you making up Katie Forbes policies on raising wages for carers or raising child benefit?

[grunt]

I think she's very naive, but has absolutely supreme confidence because she literally thinks she's acting out God's will.:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:gree ngrin

[Santa Cruz]

Care to link those statements to something tangible?

What carers are you referring to? Most staff in the social care sectors are in fact social care workers , employed by private companies. How does a government determine the wages for one group of workers in the private sector?

As for raising child benefit payments, I would be more impressed if a future First Minister said that this would be means tested and as a result the lower paid received a higher rate than now, at the expense of higher income families who don’t need it.

Oh hang on, you must be confused, Child Benefit isn’t devolved to the Scottish Government��
https://www.gov.scot/publications/responsibility-for-benefits-overview/

Same with the likes of prescription charges and eye tests. Faced with an economic crisis, I personally would be happy to pay for these services. They should be means tested.

Think you're confusing Child Benefit with the Child Payment which is unique to Scotland.

Agree with means testing, I've always supported this. Even an affordable nominal fee for presciptions/eye tests for people earning above a certain amount would raise more money for the health budget.

There's a massive loophole in the UC benefit system that allows claimants an entitlement to the Child Payment. It's not the claimants fault, they're not doing anything wrong, it's not even the SG's fault as that part is reserved to the DWP. The loophole must still be costing billions in paying money out to a % of claimants across the UK who I don't think would be defined accurately as living in poverty. I am not saying that there isn't a lot of poverty, there is, I am pointing out that the money wasted could be better spent helping improving services and giving more money to the correct people who do live in poverty.

The £15 p/h for carers would be more tricky for the reasons you've stated. I'm sure they could work something out though by working with the private sector.

[Ozyhibby]

The record membership levels were in 2019. Since then we’ve had the polemic of how the SNP managed Covid and the GRA debacle, as well as their failings to address a failing NHS and Education.

You still never bothered to answer my point about you making up Katie Forbes policies on raising wages for carers or raising child benefit?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kate-forbes-backs-15-hour-29344959.amp

And all three candidates have committed to raising the Scottish child payment.


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[superfurryhibby]

Think you're confusing Child Benefit with the Child Payment which is unique to Scotland.

Agree with means testing, I've always supported this. Even an affordable nominal fee for presciptions/eye tests for people earning above a certain amount would raise more money for the health budget.

There's a massive loophole in the UC benefit system that allows claimants an entitlement to the Child Payment. It's not the claimants fault, they're not doing anything wrong, it's not even the SG's fault as that part is reserved to the DWP. The loophole must still be costing billions in paying money out to a % of claimants across the UK who I don't think would be defined accurately as living in poverty. I am not saying that there isn't a lot of poverty, there is, I am pointing out that the money wasted could be better spent helping improving services and giving more money to the correct people who do live in poverty.

The £15 p/h for carers would be more tricky for the reasons you've stated. I'm sure they could work something out though by working with the private sector.

Thanks for your correction.

With regard to the social care workers. The private sector is vast and diverse. From hedge fund owned national care home companies to small stand alone care at home services.

One of the new challenges, post brexit, post covid in social care has been the phenomenal rise in companies sponsoring people to come and work from overseas or using overseas staff who are here on restricted visas.

There are many services supplying these staff, many/ most of whom are coming from India and Africa, have no background in social care, who’s cultural background and language skills are a huge obstacle to providing quality care.

It’s absolutely scandalous. What hope is there if raising standards and quality of care in those circumstances?

The SNP have talked about a national care service, when is that being delivered? I suspect never is the answer.

In the meantime we get their completely botched GRA reform, which of course people were clamouring for, or there again maybe not.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kate-forbes-backs-15-hour-29344959.amp

And all three candidates have committed to raising the Scottish child payment.


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Apologies on that front. I confused this with what I still think of as Family Allowance.

[grunt]

Agree with means testing, I've always supported this. Even an affordable nominal fee for presciptions/eye tests for people earning above a certain amount would raise more money for the health budget.
I always thought the argument was that the cost of collecting prescription charges outweighed the revenue.

[Santa Cruz]

I always thought the argument was that the cost of collecting prescription charges outweighed the revenue.

I've heard that, no idea how accurate it is. I thought it was more to do with processing and checking the exemptions from paying, I really don't know.

[Stairway 2 7]

No one should pay for prescription. We are the sixth richest nation in the world, our problem isn't money its redistribution

[degenerated]

The mail saying 78,000 members will decide our first minister. Almost 50,000 down from the highs of 125k. Brutal if true. The rumours were GRC had decimated the party numbers but this would be worse than that.The huge increase in numbers came in the days after the referendum and I'm sure that the lack of progress on that front has as much, if not more, to do with the reduction as stuff about gender recognition.

It should still be noted that SNP mbership per capita is still greater than the combined membership of all the other parties in UK. More than double labour and 5 times more than the Tories.

[Stairway 2 7]

The huge increase in numbers came in the days after the referendum and I'm sure that the lack of progress on that front has as much, if not more, to do with the reduction as stuff about gender recognition.

It should still be noted that SNP mbership per capita is still greater than the combined membership of all the other parties in UK. More than double labour and 5 times more than the Tories.
It was highest in 2019 and was huge 2 years ago there's definitely been an unprecedented drop last year, are any of the 3 likely to grow numbers I'd doubt it not that it's important in the grand scheme

[degenerated]

It was highest in 2019 and was huge 2 years ago there's definitely been an unprecedented drop last year, are any of the 3 likely to grow numbers I'd doubt it not that it's important in the grand schemeExponential growth happened in the aftermath of the independence referendum, it went from around 30 or 40,000 to well over a hundred in a very short space after that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Exponential growth happened in the aftermath of the independence referendum, it went from around 30 or 40,000 to well over a hundred in a very short space after that.

Yes then stayed steady for years

[superfurryhibby]

No one should pay for prescription. We are the sixth richest nation in the world, our problem isn't money its redistribution

Perhaps a left wing SNP government could begin that by showing some radicalism with existing powers to vary income tax instead?

I don’t agree with the premise that people shouldn’t pay prescription charges. The whole system needs reformed. I picked up a prescription recently and asked for some paracetamol. The assistant in the chemist said they were free, under some scheme associated with homely remedies. I insisted I pay and I suspect, but don’t know for sure, that there was more profit in a pharmacy giving me them for free and collecting the tithe from our public funds.

[Santa Cruz]

Thanks for your correction.

With regard to the social care workers. The private sector is vast and diverse. From hedge fund owned national care home companies to small stand alone care at home services.

One of the new challenges, post brexit, post covid in social care has been the phenomenal rise in companies sponsoring people to come and work from overseas or using overseas staff who are here on restricted visas.

There are many services supplying these staff, many/ most of whom are coming from India and Africa, have no background in social care, who’s cultural background and language skills are a huge obstacle to providing quality care.

It’s absolutely scandalous. What hope is there if raising standards and quality of care in those circumstances?

The SNP have talked about a national care service, when is that being delivered? I suspect never is the answer.

In the meantime we get their completely botched GRA reform, which of course people were clamouring for, or there again maybe not.

I think the pandemic highlighted how undervalued the care sector is. I only briefly worked in a Private Care Home when I was much younger in the kitchen, but even at a young age I could recognise just how hard everyone worked. I don't think there's an easy affordable fix, even paying more per hour might not be enough to address retention issues, from what I witnessed it's a very demanding job and I think eventually that takes its toll.

[Mibbes Aye]

What carers are you referring to? Most staff in the social care sectors are in fact social care workers , employed by private companies. How does a government determine the wages for one group of workers in the private sector?



I think this needs clarified a bit. It's only really social care for older people (home care, nursing or residential homes) that is private or 'independent' sector in Scotland. Most work in areas like mental health and learning disability is delivered by the third or voluntary sector.

And even around older people, local authorities/health and social care partnerships (HSCPs) retain a not insignificant share of the workforce, either through in-house services or ALEOs, which tend to be in-house in most things bar name. That is in part deliberate - the local authority is the 'provider of last resort' and it makes sense to retain some critical mass, most especially when private sector providers fail financially - staff can be TUPE'd across with relative ease.

Regardless, they are all still ultimately paid by government - the vast majority of work done by the provate sector providers is commissioned and payed for by local authirities/HSCP and the lion's share of their funding is the central grant from SG.

And all that nowithstanding, SG agreed a deal with COSLA to ensure care workers were paid the Real Living Wage a few years back. Some extra money went to councils and they made it part of their contractual arrangements with their providers.

[superfurryhibby]

I think this needs clarified a bit. It's only really social care for older people (home care, nursing or residential homes) that is private or 'independent' sector in Scotland. Most work in areas like mental health and learning disability is delivered by the third or voluntary sector.

And even around older people, local authorities/health and social care partnerships (HSCPs) retain a not insignificant share of the workforce, either through in-house services or ALEOs, which tend to be in-house in most things bar name. That is in part deliberate - the local authority is the 'provider of last resort' and it makes sense to retain some critical mass, most especially when private sector providers fail financially - staff can be TUPE'd across with relative ease.

Regardless, they are all still ultimately paid by government - the vast majority of work done by the provate sector providers is commissioned and payed for by local authirities/HSCP and the lion's share of their funding is the central grant from SG.

And all that nowithstanding, SG agreed a deal with COSLA to ensure care workers were paid the Real Living Wage a few years back. Some extra money went to councils and they made it part of their contractual arrangements with their providers.


Some good points. I would say that care at home and care homes take up very significant percentage of the social care budget, compared to mental health, learning disabilities and homelessness type services.

Audit Scotland’s paper states that 57% of all social care is delivered by the private sector, 20% from the voluntary sector and the rest by implication through HSCP.

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2022/briefing_220127_social_care.pdf

That was published in Jan 2022 and is damning indictment of the state of social care.

Some 31% of all social care employees are on zero hours or non permanent contracts. Many work unpaid overtime (15%), 13% many work more than 50 hours/week and the average wage was £9.77/hour.

We shouldn’t kid ourselves on about local authority capacity to influence or improve services they commission. It hasn’t happened and Brexit/Pandemic has just made things much worse. That is why we are now having to resort to measures like importing people from Africa and India via sponsorship schemes and students with restricted right to work.

These are people who usually have no social care backgrounds, are sent out to care for people in their homes homes with the most basic training. Often working with unrealistic visiting schedules. They don’t get paid for travel time and there are huge cultural and language barriers to overcome.

The state of care at home and many care homes is a national scandal. The whole premise of private sector care and profit is deeply flawed. We have been promised a National Care Service, because the government recognise the decades of misguided policy have brought the industry to its knees. When’s that being delivered? I have my doubts it ever will be.



With regard to the Voluntary sector, whilst there are some more community based providers , most are many national organisations. Perhaps not for profit, but they are still businesses and pay their senior management people large salaries (some more so than others).

[GlesgaeHibby]

Perhaps a left wing SNP government could begin that by showing some radicalism with existing powers to vary income tax instead?

I don’t agree with the premise that people shouldn’t pay prescription charges. The whole system needs reformed. I picked up a prescription recently and asked for some paracetamol. The assistant in the chemist said they were free, under some scheme associated with homely remedies. I insisted I pay and I suspect, but don’t know for sure, that there was more profit in a pharmacy giving me them for free and collecting the tithe from our public funds.

We've already got a fair bit of variance compared to UK. Higher rate going up to 42p from April and kicks in at around 43.5k compared to 50k in England. Add in national insurance at 12p on earnings of up to around 50k and you've got a marginal tax rate of 54p in the pound for earnings between around 43.5k to 50k. That's a massive incentive to throw money into a pension.

I'd rather see the government look at properly reforming council tax, and looking at wealth tax rather than tinkering with income tax.

[Hibs4185]

Just spoke to someone with a few connections at the rugby and seemingly Murrell has a story that is well Known by people in the know and is one of the reasons NS stood down.

Marriage is apparently convenience put it that way

[MartinfaePorty]

Just spoke to someone with a few connections at the rugby and seemingly Murrell has a story that is well Known by people in the know and is one of the reasons NS stood down.

Marriage is apparently convenience put it that way

My mate, who's a Tory and Jambo, plus a bit of a slaver, has been telling me a similar story for years and if you search around Twitter you can find folk alluding to it. I'm disinclined to believe it until I hear it from a more credible source.

[Skol]

Just spoke to someone with a few connections at the rugby and seemingly Murrell has a story that is well Known by people in the know and is one of the reasons NS stood down.

Marriage is apparently convenience put it that way

Rugger types will be tories. Nothing to see.

[Stairway 2 7]

Humza hits out at cherrys conspiracy theories, she calls him a chicken

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
·
Funny. I saw Humza at ⁦
@TUG_SNP
⁩ hustings last night & he didn’t say any of this to my face. I stand by my concerns about the manner in which this election is being conducted. They are legitimate & are shared by many members

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23380251.humza-yousaf-i-dont-entertain-joanna-cherrys-conspiracy-theories/

[marinello59]

Just spoke to someone with a few connections at the rugby and seemingly Murrell has a story that is well Known by people in the know and is one of the reasons NS stood down.

Marriage is apparently convenience put it that way

A malicious and nasty piece of made up nonsense that has been doing the rounds on social media for years.

[Hibs4185]

Rugger types will be tories. Nothing to see.

I’m a rugger type and I’m a passionate independence supporter. Funny that

[Just Alf]

Laudable, i agree..... hopefully you you agree that someone else being pigeonholed with no proof whatsoever is a bad thing?

[Skol]

Just spoke to someone with a few connections at the rugby and seemingly Murrell has a story that is well Known by people in the know and is one of the reasons NS stood down.

Marriage is apparently convenience put it that way

Rugger types will be tories. Nothing to see.

[Stairway 2 7]

If it were true it would be a sad stain on our society that someone felt the need to do it. I think it's a load of nonsense but genuinely could care less if it were, most normal people would. The ones that would chuckle at the rumour are the ones that need help

[Mibbes Aye]

Some good points. I would say that care at home and care homes take up very significant percentage of the social care budget, compared to mental health, learning disabilities and homelessness type services.

Audit Scotland’s paper states that 57% of all social care is delivered by the private sector, 20% from the voluntary sector and the rest by implication through HSCP.

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2022/briefing_220127_social_care.pdf

That was published in Jan 2022 and is damning indictment of the state of social care.

Some 31% of all social care employees are on zero hours or non permanent contracts. Many work unpaid overtime (15%), 13% many work more than 50 hours/week and the average wage was £9.77/hour.

We shouldn’t kid ourselves on about local authority capacity to influence or improve services they commission. It hasn’t happened and Brexit/Pandemic has just made things much worse. That is why we are now having to resort to measures like importing people from Africa and India via sponsorship schemes and students with restricted right to work.

These are people who usually have no social care backgrounds, are sent out to care for people in their homes homes with the most basic training. Often working with unrealistic visiting schedules. They don’t get paid for travel time and there are huge cultural and language barriers to overcome.

The state of care at home and many care homes is a national scandal. The whole premise of private sector care and profit is deeply flawed. We have been promised a National Care Service, because the government recognise the decades of misguided policy have brought the industry to its knees. When’s that being delivered? I have my doubts it ever will be.

With regard to the Voluntary sector, whilst there are some more community based providers , most are many national organisations. Perhaps not for profit, but they are still businesses and pay their senior management people large salaries (some more so than others).

This is also a long read, but it builds to a very on-topic conclusion, honest!

Re the budgets, you would find that some local authorities spend in the 20s and even 30s% of their adult social care budget in relation to learning disability. This is typically authorities where there were the old long-stay learning disability hospitals. What needs to be borne in mind is that, like everyone else, the average life expectancy for an adult with a learning disability has increased markedly, but adults with learning disabilities are just as prone to conditions associated with frailty or with long-term conditions more generally. and the twist is that adults with learning disabilities tend to encounter these conditions earlier and harder than the general population. Most importantly, that means poorer outcomes for them but to be blunt, it also means an increased cost in health and care. Add to that, that LD and MH services have traditionally paid significantly more to frontline workers than older people's services and that smaller population share starts to get closer in actual spend.

I agree with you that social care is in a bad place but I suspect for different reasons. The point about non-fixed contracts is an example. It is actually very difficult to operate a service that delivers something as fluid as home care with lots of staff on fixed contracts unless you are a local authority employer, where you have some control over demand, as well as supply. And even then local authority managers have been under relentless pressure for the last couple of decades to squeeze every last drop of 'downtime' out the system. That's in order to balance their budget but also to provide evidence to Audit Scotland when they visit on their rolling programme of Best Value Reviews.

I do disagree about the capacity of local authorities to influence and improve the services they are commissioning. It is standard practice nowadays to tie payment levels to grades issued by the independent scrutiny body. Furthermore there is far more flexibility around contracting. That seemed attractive to providers at the outset because it meant that there wasn't as pressing a need for formal tendering and re-tendering processes. The flip side was that they lost the security of a three or four-year contract or place on a framework agreement. Flexibility cuts both ways and contracts have moved away from solely 'time and task' to an attempt at looking at outcomes, which in itself is an improvement. And then you also have the fact that local authorities are the lead agency for the adult support and protection legislation. At any given moment I would estimate there are at minimum a few dozen care homes or care at home services who have a moratorium in place due to ASP, meaning the authority won't give thenm additional work, which will also diccourage private 'customers'.

Re foreign workers, do you have reliable recent data? The year before lockdown, non-UK workers in the care sector were less than 10% and more than half of those were EU, regardless of Brexit. There wouldn't have been much in the way of migration in 2020 and 2021 and I really don't see any noticeable influx of African or South Asian workers in the sector since. I do think there is a narrative out there that suggests this is the case but I don't buy into it, based on any evidence I have encountered.

There was a time when I would have said there was no place for the private sector in delivering care. I think that was a long time ago. Yes, there are hedge fund-backed home care organisations that essentially harvest a profit for their shareholders, small at an individual level but aggregated up it obviously becomes greater, and more importantly it is a 'safe' investment. Nevertheless we have reasonably robust checks and balances through the regulatory regime. It doesn't stop all the bad apples but those apples come from the statutory and voluntary sector as well. And the private sector isn't all hedge funds and nothing else. If you go to Perthshire, for example, most of the care home provision is single-service, often essentially a family business. I don't normally name-check people on here but if you have doubts about the intentions of those who work and lead in the indpendent sector, their representative body is called Scottish Care. Its chief executive is a man called Donald Macaskill. He is a bit of a 'go-to' for the media, you may have seen him on Reporting Scotland and the like, and frequently updates his blog on the Scottish Care home page or uploads an open letter about the challenges and solutions in care. His value base is 100% rock solid and most politicians would do well to pay heed to his words and indeed seek to emulate them.

And all this finally gets us back on topic to the mooted National Care Service and I guess the candidates' views on it. if, as you say, the government is introducing it because of decades of misguided policy, then it has to recognise its own contribution to that. The Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Act 2014 legislated for formal health and social care integration in 2016. Massive structural reform and you will struggle to find a local authority or NHS board chief executive who doesnt think it was deeply flawed in design. Fast-forward less than a decade to today and we have the new, shiny NCS, while integration is silently airbrushed out the picture, like one of Stalin's out-of-favour generals following the May Day parade.

One of the notable 'should have been a warning sign' events during the Brexit campaign was that the CBI and the TUC both came together to denounce Leave and unequivocally back Remain. With the NCS we have a similar tale where COSLA and the unions (and the voluntary and independent sector) are all expressing major misgivings about the intent and the execution. When you have employers and empliyees both saying "Hold on" then it is usually wise to "Hold on"

Forbes I suspect is happy to bin it, her language has been cloaked but not cloaked enough. Yousaf is stuck with it though, he can't credibly denounce a policy he has fronted being the relevant minister. Regardless I agree, I don't think it will see the light of day, and I certainly hope it doesn't.

[grunt]

One of the notable 'should have been a warning sign' events during the Brexit campaign was that the CBI and the TUC both came together to denounce Leave and unequivocally back Remain. With the NCS we have a similar tale where COSLA and the unions (and the voluntary and independent sector) are all expressing major misgivings about the intent and the execution. When you have employers and empliyees both saying "Hold on" then it is usually wise to "Hold on"

Forbes I suspect is happy to bin it, her language has been cloaked but not cloaked enough. Yousaf is stuck with it though, he can't credibly denounce a policy he has fronted being the relevant minister. Regardless I agree, I don't think it will see the light of day, and I certainly hope it doesn't.
Yes but the high difference is that Brexit was plainly a stupid idea. Any fool could see that. Whereas NCS - joining health and social care - is also plainly a good idea. No?

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes but the high difference is that Brexit was plainly a stupid idea. Any fool could see that. Whereas NCS - joining health and social care - is also plainly a good idea. No?

Given the SG have abandoned their most recent attempt at it, given that their previous similar attempt (Reshaping Care for Older People) didn't deliver and given the attempt before that by the Scottish Executive (Joint Futures) fell apart, what is it about their proposals for a NCS that makes you think 'That's a good idea!'?

[grunt]

... what is it about their proposals for a NCS that makes you think 'That's a good idea!'?I'm not talking about the proposals - I have no knowledge of them. I'm simply saying it seems to make sense to me to link the health system with the care system to make them work better together. I have no insight into this world. The two systems appear to me to have such linkages that it would be good if they could work together. That's the extent of my thinking.

[superfurryhibby]

Given the SG have abandoned their most recent attempt at it, given that their previous similar attempt (Reshaping Care for Older People) didn't deliver and given the attempt before that by the Scottish Executive (Joint Futures) fell apart, what is it about their proposals for a NCS that makes you think 'That's a good idea!'?

It’s not going to quote your long response, but I disagree about quality and payments being linked. Local authorities are responding to poor grading from our independent regulator, but it’s my experience that they have no choice but to do so in the face of such strong indicators of risk and unacceptable standards.

However, they aren’t building quality into the commissioning beyond saying they won’t give more work to care at home services with grades lower than adequate. They are very lax at reviewing social care packages or placements, so I wonder how would they know how a service is performing?

The foreign worker part. It’s real, believe me. The existing providers are jumping on board with the sponsorship scheme and there is also an absolute flood of new services and agencies supplying social care staff. Probably much more prevalent in the cities than rural areas. Many of the new care at home providers and social care agencies ( which incidentally don’t require registration with the Care Inspectorate, unless they supply nurses) are also owned by non UK nationals. The scale of this is staggering and for me, very alarming.

The issue touches on a lot of delicate sensibilities, but it’s scandalous. Whether there is data on this, I’m not sure. I suspect our systems aren’t sophisticated enough to categorise student visa workers by which industry they are employed in. The sponsorship side of things, that should be more available.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not talking about the proposals - I have no knowledge of them. I'm simply saying it seems to make sense to me to link the health system with the care system to make them work better together. I have no insight into this world. The two systems appear to me to have such linkages that it would be good if they could work together. That's the extent of my thinking.

Fair enough. The common complaints about top-down policy like this are

It is unnecessary centralisation and a power-grab from councils
The services are already linked and won't necessarily work better for having one logo
Co-location and joint working matter more than structural reform
Culture and practice makes for better outcomes. Systems and processes also enable this but for people experiencing care, it is the former that matters more.
There is a compelling argument that where 'integration' is really lacking is within health - between acute care (hospitals basically) and primary care (GPs, district nurses etc). That sort of fits a business-world analogy, where the NCS is essentially horizontal integration but the real issue is flaws in the vertical integration of elements of the NHS.


Basically, the NCS and HSCPs before the NCS are trying to achieve something through significant back-office upheaval that many professionals feel could be achieved by focusing on the frontline. But in this case the business spends something pushing on for £20 billion a year.

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s not going to quote your long response, but I disagree about quality and payments being linked. Local authorities are responding to poor grading from our independent regulator, but it’s my experience that they have no choice but to do so in the face of such strong indicators of risk and unacceptable standards.

However, they aren’t building quality into the commissioning beyond saying they won’t give more work to care at home services with grades lower than adequate. They are very lax at reviewing social care packages or placements, so I wonder how would they know how a service is performing?

The foreign worker part. It’s real, believe me. The existing providers are jumping on board with the sponsorship scheme and there is also an absolute flood of new services and agencies supplying social care staff. Probably much more prevalent in the cities than rural areas. Many of the new care at home providers and social care agencies ( which incidentally don’t require registration with the Care Inspectorate, unless they supply nurses) are also owned by non UK nationals. The scale of this is staggering and for me, very alarming.

The issue touches on a lot of delicate sensibilities, but it’s scandalous. Whether there is data on this, I’m not sure. I suspect our systems aren’t sophisticated enough to categorise student visa workers by which industry they are employed in. The sponsorship side of things, that should be more available.

It's good to read what comes across as an informed and differing perspective. You make a reasonable point about evaluations but there are commonly contracts where 5s and 6s generate additional payments. Add to that you have providers who have engaged with local authorities around using My Home Life or Talking Points. That's not been driven by getting 'Adequate's or 'Good's. Reviews are definitely a real pressure point for LAs and one has the sense that they often rely on provider reviews (sometimes attending them) which are a requirement.

Re registration, if you want to operate a care service in Scotland then you have to be registered with the Care Inspectorate. That's the law, no ifs or buts. And the vast majority of staf need to be registered with SSSC. Are you meaning agencies are supplying staff to a registered provider?

[superfurryhibby]

It's good to read what comes across as an informed and differing perspective. You make a reasonable point about evaluations but there are commonly contracts where 5s and 6s generate additional payments. Add to that you have providers who have engaged with local authorities around using My Home Life or Talking Points. That's not been driven by getting 'Adequate's or 'Good's. Reviews are definitely a real pressure point for LAs and one has the sense that they often rely on provider reviews (sometimes attending them) which are a requirement.

Re registration, if you want to operate a care service in Scotland then you have to be registered with the Care Inspectorate. That's the law, no ifs or buts. And the vast majority of staf need to be registered with SSSC. Are you meaning agencies are supplying staff to a registered provider?

Yes, agencies are supplying significant percentages of staff to registered providers, certainly in Edinburgh. They only need to be registered with Care Inspectorate if they supply nurses. If it’s social care staff then the obligation is to ensure staff register with the SSSC. I’m guessing, but I would imagine they will need to be registered with the Care Inspectorate if they want to be involved in the sponsorship debacle.

I’m not aware of any contractual arrangements with commissioners around grades, other than the grades going below 3-adequate, will trigger some action from the HSCP. Many providers will no doubt incentivise performance by rewarding grades with bonuses. Again, my knowledge is mostly from Edinburgh ( and a bit of the Borders), so the processes you mention may be more prevalent elsewhere

In terms of review, there is a statutory requirement for Providers to review care plans, but the statutory instruments don’t really make it clear about what that review should look like. The quality and scope of the review, if they take place at all, will often be lacking.

These issues will affect us all and they should be close to the top of any prospective First Minister’s domestic agenda. I think it is in part why I am so disillusioned by the likes of the debate and huge energy that was expended on the GRA reform bill. It’s no doubt important to our Trans community, but for me the deterioration and near collapse of our Social Care system has much more impact on our society. I just don’t understand why there is no media or public focus on what’s happening.

[He's here!]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/yoons-for-yousaf-fascists-for-forbes/

'Yoons for Yousaf, fascists for Forbes'...sailing close to the wind with that headline surely. Find it hard to agree with their claim the media are running scared of Regan.

[degenerated]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/yoons-for-yousaf-fascists-for-forbes/

'Yoons for Yousaf, fascists for Forbes'...sailing close to the wind with that headline surely. Find it hard to agree with their claim the media are running scared of Regan.You must spend a lot of time on wings over Scotland.

[grunt]

You must spend a lot of time on wings over Scotland.
Required reading for all Tory voting British citizens.

[archie]

Required reading for all Tory voting British citizens.

Why is Wings so hated now when he was previously adored?

[grunt]

Why is Wings so hated now when he was previously adored?
You'll need to ask someone who pays attention.

[Hiber-nation]

Why is Wings so hated now when he was previously adored?

On here I can recall one now banned poster singing its praises in the past (only because I ripped into him a bit for believing the tosh it was spouting) but not too many others. It's way more extreme and dare I say it, sinister nowadays.

Wings that is, not .net :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Why is Wings so hated now when he was previously adored?

Who says he’s not adored now? Certain fanboys on here are constantly posting links.


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[Mon Dieu4]

Why is Wings so hated now when he was previously adored?

I've never really paid attention to them either way, but they seem like they have went through the worst break up of all time and are hell bent on telling everyone how bad their ex is, just seems mental

[Hibs4185]

Just voted in the leadership contest. Had the email 2 minutes ago and done it straight away.

Word of warning. It’s not as simple as voting for 1 candidate. You have to rank them in order. It caught me by surprise as I’d thought it would just be a tick box for my favoured candidate

[Ozyhibby]

Just voted in the leadership contest. Had the email 2 minutes ago and done it straight away.

Word of warning. It’s not as simple as voting for 1 candidate. You have to rank them in order. It caught me by surprise as I’d thought it would just be a tick box for my favoured candidate

I’m going to wait till all debates are done. Still not sure.


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[grunt]

I’m going to wait till all debates are done.
Aren't they all done now?

[Ozyhibby]

Aren't they all done now?

Sky tv tonight.


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[Hibs4185]

I’m going to wait till all debates are done. Still not sure.


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I found second choice really hard. I wonder why it isn’t just a straight fight and the person with the most votes wins

[Santa Cruz]

I found second choice really hard. I wonder why it isn’t just a straight fight and the person with the most votes wins

It's a single transferrable vote system.

[Lendo]

Sitting here humming and hawing on my ballot. I think I have decided but finding it far tougher than I was expecting it to be.

[Sergio sledge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8amd4lnZiFI&t=3213s

I can't remember if it was this thread or another one but there was some discussion around ScotWind and the lease of offshore wind. The whole TUG/STUC hustings is worth watching but from 52mins on there are questions about ScotWind and a public renewables company and taking the national grid into public ownership.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8amd4lnZiFI&t=3213s

I can't remember if it was this thread or another one but there was some discussion around ScotWind and the lease of offshore wind. The whole TUG/STUC hustings is worth watching but from 52mins on there are questions about ScotWind and a public renewables company and taking the national grid into public ownership.

Forbes committing to public ownership of energy and the grid. Not very right wing of her.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Forbes committing to public ownership of energy and the grid. Not very right wing of her.


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fair enough - really excellent to see that. Do you know if she did explicitly state somewhere that carers would be paid £15 per hour?

[Stairway 2 7]

Another poll with no lead but more significant is another set of shocking poll results for Yousaf.

https://news.sky.com/story/snp-leadership-scottish-independence-support-at-just-39-poll-says-12832783

[grunt]

Another poll with no lead but more significant is another set of shocking poll results for Yousaf.

https://news.sky.com/story/snp-leadership-scottish-independence-support-at-just-39-poll-says-12832783


But there seemed to be agreement that where the SNP (https://news.sky.com/topic/snp-5710)administration had underperformed was in its handling of the NHS, with 62% saying it was doing badly on health.BBC Scotland winning.

[Mibbes Aye]

BBC Scotland winning.

It must be tough for you. The public saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health, people with direct experience of health systems saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health, even candidates for the SNP leadership saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health.

Still, that old ‘BBC as the bogeyman’ tactic is bound to fool everyone isn’t it? I’ve now gone and clean forgotten how poorly the SNP are governing on health :-)

[Santa Cruz]

fair enough - really excellent to see that. Do you know if she did explicitly state somewhere that carers would be paid £15 per hour?


https://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/news/watch-kate-forbes-vows-change-not-continuity-with-fair-work-305145/

[Ozyhibby]

fair enough - really excellent to see that. Do you know if she did explicitly state somewhere that carers would be paid £15 per hour?

I shared a link with you yesterday morning on that very thing?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotlands-nhs-needs-fundamental-reform-kate-forbes-says-at-glasgow-snp-leadership-campaign-event


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[Hibs4185]

Forbes committing to public ownership of energy and the grid. Not very right wing of her.


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Glad I voted for her and this confirms it

[grunt]

It must be tough for you. The public saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health, people with direct experience of health systems saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health, even candidates for the SNP leadership saying the SNP aren’t governing well on health.

Still, that old ‘BBC as the bogeyman’ tactic is bound to fool everyone isn’t it? I’ve now gone and clean forgotten how poorly the SNP are governing on health :-)
Objectively I understand that the SNHS are doing better than any other UK health board. But you carry on knocking your country and the people working so hard in it.

[He's here!]

Another poll with no lead but more significant is another set of shocking poll results for Yousaf.

https://news.sky.com/story/snp-leadership-scottish-independence-support-at-just-39-poll-says-12832783

Don't knows/none of the above still leading the way when it comes to who's the top candidate.

Yousaf seems to be embedded as the chosen one among the SNP hierarchy, so it'll be interesting to see if the members go along with that. I note that only 54,000 are expected to vote so it could be close bearing in mind the voting system.

[Mibbes Aye]

Objectively I understand that the SNHS are doing better than any other UK health board. But you carry on knocking your country and the people working so hard in it.

Is that it? 16 years in power and the best line is we are less worse than the rUK? The SNP government are still failing to hit their own targets, by their own measures! By some distance!

Still, less worse than England eh? I was on the Edinburgh City Bypass the other day, nose-to-tail, no progress as time went on. And I didn’t think to myself ‘How could they have designed this road better?’ or ‘How could we reduce congestion or car usage here?’

No. I thought this is rubbish but it is fine because I bet it is worse on the M25 :faf:

This ‘less worse than England’ stuff is past its sell-by date and fools no one. If you want people to seriously consider voting for independence then stopping obsessing about England would be a start.

[Smartie]

Don't knows/none of the above still leading the way when it comes to who's the top candidate.

Yousaf seems to be embedded as the chosen one among the SNP hierarchy, so it'll be interesting to see if the members go along with that. I note that only 54,000 are expected to vote so it could be close bearing in mind the voting system.

Straw poll of the (very few) number of people I've discussed it with so far - nobody for Regan, one for Yousaf, overwhelming majority of the people I know are in favour of Forbes.

[Mibbes Aye]

Objectively I understand that the SNHS are doing better than any other UK health board. But you carry on knocking your country and the people working so hard in it.

Oh and another thing. Anyone legitimately criticising the track record of the SNP government is “knocking their own country and people”? Really?

Whether you meant it or it was an inadvertent slip, I really don’t think you want to be painting yourself into that corner.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that it? 16 years in power and the best line is we are less worse than the rUK? The SNP government are still failing to hit their own targets, by their own measures! By some distance!

Still, less worse than England eh? I was on the Edinburgh City Bypass the other day, nose-to-tail, no progress as time went on. And I didn’t think to myself ‘How could they have designed this road better?’ or ‘How could we reduce congestion or car usage here?’

No. I thought this is rubbish but it is fine because I bet it is worse on the M25 :faf:

This ‘less worse than England’ stuff is past its sell-by date and fools no one. If you want people to seriously consider voting for independence then stopping obsessing about England would be a start.

Due to the confines of the devolution settlement, England is our closest comparator country. If you want comparisons with other countries then surely it’s only fair that we have the same freedoms to fund and operate the service as those countries. Fact is, the SNP has proven that it’s the best party for running the NHS in the UK. Within the UK as it’s currently set up, they are your best bet.
Can it be done better? Of course it could. Maybe it’s time for Labour and the Tories to show Scots how it could be done better rather than telling? Or is it a case of all hat, no cattle?


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[Ozyhibby]

Oh and another thing. Anyone legitimately criticising the track record of the SNP government is “knocking their own country and people”? Really?

Whether you meant it or it was an inadvertent slip, I really don’t think you want to be painting yourself into that corner.

I agree on that.


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[superfurryhibby]

Forbes committing to public ownership of energy and the grid. Not very right wing of her.


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I'd be interested to see how she would manage it. Any link to that?

[Ozyhibby]

I'd be interested to see how she would manage it. Any link to that?

The link is in the post I replied to.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Due to the confines of the devolution settlement, England is our closest comparator country. If you want comparisons with other countries then surely it’s only fair that we have the same freedoms to fund and operate the service as those countries. Fact is, the SNP has proven that it’s the best party for running the NHS in the UK. Within the UK as it’s currently set up, they are your best bet.
Can it be done better? Of course it could. Maybe it’s time for Labour and the Tories to show Scots how it could be done better rather than telling? Or is it a case of all hat, no cattle?


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It's not a balanced comparison against England when we get 20% more money to spend on it. It would be a real shock if it wasn't better. Your also competing against one of the worst political parties known to man, one who has a disregard for the NHS

[Ozyhibby]

It's not a balanced comparison against England when we get 20% more money to spend on it. It would be a real shock if it wasn't better. Your also competing against one of the worst political parties known to man, one who has a disregard for the NHS

Maybe Labour should be showing us in Wales how it’s done?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe Labour should be showing us in Wales how it’s done?


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I've never seen comparable figures. The statistics authority I saw previously say they were unfair, I've no idea though

[GlesgaeHibby]

Straw poll of the (very few) number of people I've discussed it with so far - nobody for Regan, one for Yousaf, overwhelming majority of the people I know are in favour of Forbes.

My hunch is that no candidate will get over 50% of first preferences, so Ash Regan will drop out and her 2nd preference votes will largely go to Kate Forbes to see her over the line.

[grunt]

Oh and another thing. Anyone legitimately criticising the track record of the SNP government is “knocking their own country and people”? Really?
Anyone wilfully failing to recognise that out of the four constituent nations of the UK, mostly subject to similar overall stresses and constraints, that the Scottish Govt is doing demonstrably better than the others in managing the current healthcare crisis is certainly not singing the praises of their own country.

You can be very aggressive when you post on here.

[grunt]

It's not a balanced comparison against England when we get 20% more money to spend on it. It would be a real shock if it wasn't better. Your also competing against one of the worst political parties known to man, one who has a disregard for the NHS
You're describing the symptoms not the cause. Does England not have the power to choose where they spend their money? Did they not choose the worst political party ever? Decisions have consequences.

[Stairway 2 7]

You're describing the symptoms not the cause. Does England not have the power to choose where they spend their money? Did they not choose the worst political party ever? Decisions have consequences.

They did chose that party but we shouldn't gleefully compare ourselves to that much, I expect higher standards than that.

As for the first part it's barnett that allows us to spend so much more than England, so they can't spend as much as us

[Mibbes Aye]

Anyone wilfully failing to recognise that out of the four constituent nations of the UK, mostly subject to similar overall stresses and constraints, that the Scottish Govt is doing demonstrably better than the others in managing the current healthcare crisis is certainly not singing the praises of their own country.

You can be very aggressive when you post on here.

I’m not wilfully failing to recognise anything. I’m saying that exercising power, then ducking responsibility by saying “Yeah, but it could be worse” doesn’t really cut it for me, or I imagine for many voters.

To then be accused of “knocking my own country and people”? For legitimate criticism of a government in a supposed democracy? Really?

You dug a hole with that statement, you’re not making it any better by not retracting it

[Mibbes Aye]

Due to the confines of the devolution settlement, England is our closest comparator country. If you want comparisons with other countries then surely it’s only fair that we have the same freedoms to fund and operate the service as those countries. Fact is, the SNP has proven that it’s the best party for running the NHS in the UK. Within the UK as it’s currently set up, they are your best bet.
Can it be done better? Of course it could. Maybe it’s time for Labour and the Tories to show Scots how it could be done better rather than telling? Or is it a case of all hat, no cattle?


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Labour, unlike the other two, have a track record on the NHS that’s in credit. Plenty of herd there cowboy :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Labour, unlike the other two, have a track record on the NHS that’s in credit. Plenty of herd there cowboy :greengrin

I’m sure the people of Wales are comforted by that. We used to be good at this but now we are not quite as good as the SNP.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I’m sure the people of Wales are comforted by that.

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You should ask them. They’ve consistently returned Labour as the largest party and governing party for nigh (or Nye) on 25 years now :na na:

[Ozyhibby]

You should ask them. They’ve consistently returned Labour as the largest party and governing party for nigh (or Nye) on 25 years now :na na:

People of Scotland seem even happier with the SNP.[emoji106]


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[Mibbes Aye]

People of Scotland seem even happier with the SNP.[emoji106]


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Well played sir :greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Straw poll of the (very few) number of people I've discussed it with so far - nobody for Regan, one for Yousaf, overwhelming majority of the people I know are in favour of Forbes.

Did the very same earlier. All SNP voters, all said something along the lines of "well Forbes I suppose but....".

[AugustaHibs]

I’m sorry but having just watched the leadership debate, sturgeon has a lot to answer for.

SURELY part of her job as FM is to ensure a smooth transition to the next leader?

These 3 are diabolical and we urgently need an adult to step up and put all this to rest.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Forbes will be happiest after tonight’s debate. Yousaf had a bit of a bad night. When I saw him on Friday I thought he was a good communicator but tonight he looked rattled.
Forbes looked like she could handle being FM.
Regan hasn’t changed my mind on her.
Leaning heavily towards Forbes now.


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[Hibs4185]

I think Forbes will be happiest after tonight’s debate. Yousaf had a bit of a bad night. When I saw him on Friday I thought he was a good communicator but tonight he looked rattled.
Forbes looked like she could handle being FM.
Regan hasn’t changed my mind on her.
Leaning heavily towards Forbes now.


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I went for Yousaf as my third Choice as a sort of tactical vote to help Forbes.

[Glory Lurker]

Ach, we'll be grand.

[Skol]

I went for Yousaf as my third Choice as a sort of tactical vote to help Forbes.

Scratching my head at that

I agree with an earlier poster, second votes are key. Yousaf needs to win at first count as I expect the second votes of either Forbes or Regan voters will be for the other female.

All in all though this is quite depressing that one of these three is our next first minister

[Mibbes Aye]

I thought the best on the night was Beth Rigby.

She was pretty ruthless with Regan about financial institutions required - a Debt Management Office, an equivalent for the OBR etc. Regan’s advisors haven’t prepared her for those sorts of questions and it showed. There also appeared to be a lot of vagueness about monetary policy. Are people proposing that the powers ceded to the B of E in 1997 return to direct government control?

Rigby was pretty tough with Yousaf as well, on failed targets. No chance of blaming the pandemic there. Interesting that Yousaf didn’t resort to ‘Yeah but England’ to any great degree.

With Forbes I thought Rigby laboured the point on conversion therapy. It sounded like she was trying to get Forbes to state support for so-called ‘consensual’ conversion therapy, but Forbes didn’t bite. If that was the case I don’t know why Rigby didn’t ask outright.

Yousaf definitely weaker tonight, trying to portray Forbes as soft Conservative. He also had to walk a high wire - Forbes is more popular with the public but Yousaf is more popular with the membership, as I understand it, and they have the vote for this particular election,but they won’t deliver a Yes vote as it stands.

Clear points victory for Forbes, Rigby the best host so far.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought the best on the night was Beth Rigby.

She was pretty ruthless with Regan about financial institutions required - a Debt Management Office, an equivalent for the OBR etc. Regan’s advisors haven’t prepared her for those sorts of questions and it showed. There also appeared to be a lot of vagueness about monetary policy. Are people proposing that the powers ceded to the B of E in 1997 return to direct government control?

Rigby was pretty tough with Yousaf as well, on failed targets. No chance of blaming the pandemic there. Interesting that Yousaf didn’t resort to ‘Yeah but England’ to any great degree.

With Forbes I thought Rigby laboured the point on conversion therapy. It sounded like she was trying to get Forbes to state support for so-called ‘consensual’ conversion therapy, but Forbes didn’t bite. If that was the case I don’t know why Rigby didn’t ask outright.

Yousaf definitely weaker tonight, trying to portray Forbes as soft Conservative. He also had to walk a high wire - Forbes is more popular with the public but Yousaf is more popular with the membership, as I understand it, and they have the vote for this particular election,but they won’t deliver a Yes vote as it stands.

Clear points victory for Forbes, Rigby the best host so far.

I thought Rigby was good tonight as well. And the weakness was the conversion therapy bit. It used up all the questions for Forbes and allowed her to repeatedly say she was against. If anything it helped Forbes.
Regan is a lightweight. She’ll be third by a distance I think.
I don’t think anyone really knows the membership. We could be sitting here in a couple of weeks after a Yousaf landslide. It’s really difficult to know.


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[Sergio sledge]

https://kateforbes.scot/a-radical-new-vision-for-scotland

[superfurryhibby]

Forbes committing to public ownership of energy and the grid. Not very right wing of her.


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Not quite. She is talking about a national renewable energy initiative and talking about supporting local communities, particularly in areas where renewables are produced and where the consumer cost of energy is greater. The would require some kind of governance around energy supply. A start, no question about it.

Yousaf is talking about price caps, local supply chains.

Regan talking about equity share taxation and a publicly owned energy company.

I want more radicalism; land reform, much greater and more equitable tax reform, council tax reform. It doesn't stop there :wink:

[H18 SFR]

https://kateforbes.scot/a-radical-new-vision-for-scotland

She seems to initially blame the Tories for inflation then later blames the Russians.

Looked a bit like a tick as many boxes as possible exercise.

[Ozyhibby]

https://kateforbes.scot/a-radical-new-vision-for-scotland

Good to see some policies laid out.


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[grunt]

I’m not wilfully failing to recognise anything. I’m saying that exercising power, then ducking responsibility by saying “Yeah, but it could be worse” doesn’t really cut it for me, or I imagine for many voters.

To then be accused of “knocking my own country and people”? For legitimate criticism of a government in a supposed democracy? Really?

You dug a hole with that statement, you’re not making it any better by not retracting it

Tedious.


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[Hibby Bairn]

Good to see some policies laid out.


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Not been following this too closely. Just picking up bits and pieces from MSM. Is there any polling from SNP members?

[Ozyhibby]

Not been following this too closely. Just picking up bits and pieces from MSM. Is there any polling from SNP members?

One half poll (only 500 people self declaring as members). It showed that it was close but I would say it can’t really be relied upon.
I’d say with all parties that members don’t always reflect voters. They are usually older for a start. That’s was the case at the hustings I went to. And even then, the people who show up at hustings might not reflect the wider membership. They could be older even still? I don’t think anyone really knows.
If I had to bet my house on it, I’d say Humza will win but given the choice I wouldn’t bet even £5 on who wins.


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[Santa Cruz]

Not been following this too closely. Just picking up bits and pieces from MSM. Is there any polling from SNP members?

Good article explaining a bit about this on BBC Scotland website by Prof John Curtice, the polling expert.

[He's here!]

Not been following this too closely. Just picking up bits and pieces from MSM. Is there any polling from SNP members?

Think the polling of members has been limited, although I note Yousaf claims to have majority support (backed by the fact he's clearly the 'establishment' choice). He's hampered in the public's eyes by his longevity in government and thereby his association with the 'mediocrity' Forbes claims that government has presided over (despite being part of it herself!). Within the membership though I guess there will remain immense respect for Sturgeon and Yousaf appears to be as close as they'll get to Sturgeon mk2. Forbes probably seems a bit of a fresher voice, if not very well known, while Regan's only significant contribution to the SG seems to have been resigning from it - she does have the backing of Sturgeon-haters like Salmond/Alba, Common Weal and Wings over Scotland, who clearly retain a lot of inside connections and knowledge but how much actual clout do they carry?

Big opportunity for Labour/Scottish Labour to capitalise on the uncertainty post-Sturgeon. Can they do so however?

[Berwickhibby]

Not been following this too closely. Just picking up bits and pieces from MSM. Is there any polling from SNP members?

Latest from SNP HQ

SNP LEADERSHIP BALLOT RESULT

CANDIDATE TOTAL VOTES RECEIVED



ASH REGAN 95,000



KATE FORBES 118,000



HUMZA YOUSAF 2,485,000**
**INCL VOTES FROM FUTURE MEMBERS YET TO BE RECRUITED

HUMZA YOUSAF IS FAIRLY AND DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AS
LEADER OF THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY 😂😂😂😂

[Hibs4185]

Latest from SNP HQ

SNP LEADERSHIP BALLOT RESULT

CANDIDATE TOTAL VOTES RECEIVED



ASH REGAN 95,000



KATE FORBES 118,000



HUMZA YOUSAF 2,485,000**
**INCL VOTES FROM FUTURE MEMBERS YET TO BE RECRUITED

HUMZA YOUSAF IS FAIRLY AND DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AS
LEADER OF THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY 😂😂😂😂

Signed P MURRELL

[He's here!]

Good article explaining a bit about this on BBC Scotland website by Prof John Curtice, the polling expert.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64940798

Yeh, I hadn't seen this. The members interviewed appear just as unsure as the public!

Interesting to note that he says nearly 60% of the membership are male and more than 70% over 50. Will this have any bearing on how the vote goes?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64940798

Yeh, I hadn't seen this. The members interviewed appear just as unsure as the public!

Interesting to note that he says nearly 60% of the membership are male and more than 70% over 50. Will this have any bearing on how the vote goes?

70% over 50 is older than even I thought. I think that probably helps Forbes but I couldn’t be sure.


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[Smartie]

These demographics do surprise me, although I know my Dad joined roughly when I left so maybe they shouldn't?

[Ozyhibby]

These demographics do surprise me, although I know my Dad joined roughly when I left so maybe they shouldn't be?

I think all political parties are similar. Young people tend to make a lot of noise and then don’t even bother to vote where as older people are more willing/able to put hands in pocket to support parties.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/kate-forbes-leads-on-strong-competent-and-trust-over-humza/


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[Moulin Yarns]

Latest from SNP HQ

SNP LEADERSHIP BALLOT RESULT

CANDIDATE TOTAL VOTES RECEIVED



ASH REGAN 95,000



KATE FORBES 118,000



HUMZA YOUSAF 2,485,000**
**INCL VOTES FROM FUTURE MEMBERS YET TO BE RECRUITED

HUMZA YOUSAF IS FAIRLY AND DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AS
LEADER OF THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY 😂😂😂😂

Oh the banter! 🙄

[Mibbes Aye]

https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/kate-forbes-leads-on-strong-competent-and-trust-over-humza/


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HTF does Humza have a net positive rating on competence??? He can't ride a four-wheel scooter ten yards without nearly breaking his neck, which by the way is a very apt metaphor for his ministerial record :greengrin

Is tonight the last televised debate? I don't know what sort of grilling the candidates will get from Stephen Jardine but it surely can't be tougher than Sky.

I know nominations have closed but could we copy the American presidential primaries system and nominate a new candidate at the convention? Beth Rigby deserves it, she has been the most informed, incisive and intelligent of anyone who has featured in these debates :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

HTF does Humza have a net positive rating on competence??? He can't ride a four-wheel scooter ten yards without nearly breaking his neck, which by the way is a very apt metaphor for his ministerial record :greengrin

Is tonight the last televised debate? I don't know what sort of grilling the candidates will get from Stephen Jardine but it surely can't be tougher than Sky.

I know nominations have closed but could we copy the American presidential primaries system and nominate a new candidate at the convention? Beth Rigby deserves it, she has been the most informed, incisive and intelligent of anyone who has featured in these debates :agree:

BBC have invited an audience. Chosen by them and representing all parties(opposite of what they done with Tory leadership debates last year) who will be allowed to quiz the candidates.


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[degenerated]

BBC have invited an audience. Chosen by them and representing all parties(opposite of what they done with Tory leadership debates last year) who will be allowed to quiz the candidates.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou can bet it's just braying mob of frothing unionists and party activists from the unionist parties.

[Ozyhibby]

You can bet it's just braying mob of frothing unionists and party activists from the unionist parties.

They get the question time team to pick the crowd. They can find Tories at ‘All under one banner’ marches.


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[Santa Cruz]

You can bet it's just braying mob of frothing unionists and party activists from the unionist parties.

I take it you didn't look at the list of questions on the application form for applying to be in the audience? It was available on the show's page on the website.

[Mibbes Aye]

BBC have invited an audience. Chosen by them and representing all parties(opposite of what they done with Tory leadership debates last year) who will be allowed to quiz the candidates.


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I suppose that's reasonable as the winner will be FM, though it's hardly a robust exercise in democracy :greengrin

I have to confess that I sometimes lose sight of the fact that they won't just be SNP leader. Now might be the time to buy shares in Johnson&Johnson and Kimberley-Clark. They own Immodium and Andrex :greengrin

[degenerated]

I take it you didn't look at the list of questions on the application form for applying to be in the audience? It was available on the show's page on the website.You're right I didn't.

[Skol]

BBC have invited an audience. Chosen by them and representing all parties(opposite of what they done with Tory leadership debates last year) who will be allowed to quiz the candidates.


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It has been very tame so far and has given them a much easier experience than the other formats so far.

[marinello59]

It has been very tame so far and has given them a much easier experience than the other formats so far.

Aye, pretty relaxed.

[marinello59]

That was very good, every candidate was given more than enough time to shine. I’m no SNP supporter and can’t agree with a lot of what they say but they all came across as thoroughly decent people standing for all the right reasons.
Forbes was again the most impressive for me but Yousaf can be pleased as well. You can’t help but like Regan but it’s all going to be about where the second preference of her supporters goes.