So the runners and riders are...

[archie]

0.03% of a party's budget spent on trying to achieve that what they were elected to do is an underspend imo :wink:

I'm sure it is iyo.

[WeeRussell]

It's a matter of scale. I think obsessing over £35k is a waste of time. I take the point that in percentage terms they are similar, but in monetary terms 35k vs 20m is significantly different.

So it’s not really a matter of scale at all then?

FWIW I don’t think those that are trying to eat on pennies, and don’t give a **** about the king, his family, or his coronation, will find 35,000 pounds trivial.

[marinello59]

So it’s not really a matter of scale at all then?

FWIW I don’t think those that are trying to eat on pennies, and don’t give a **** about the king, his family, or his coronation, will find 35,000 pounds trivial.

I’m a republican so I wouldn’t be that impressed at my council spending money on this. Plenty of others will want to celebrate the coronation though, it’s a huge event so I guess they would be quite pleased.
Yes, people are struggling but I quite like the fireworks display my council puts on, the celebrations they organise at new year and the various festivals they fund throughout the rest of the year. Should we be spending money on any of those things?

[WeeRussell]

I’m a republican so I wouldn’t be that impressed at my council spending money on this. Plenty of others will want to celebrate the coronation though, it’s a huge event so I guess they would be quite pleased.
Yes, people are struggling but I quite like the fireworks display my council puts on, the celebrations they organise at new year and the various festivals they fund throughout the rest of the year. Should we be spending money on any of those things?

All the things you’ve listed, probably (while the amounts may be debatable) even if I wouldn’t personally miss them.

I think almost everyone would agree on those. As you say yourself, as a republican, though - you wouldn’t be happy about this either. I think there are lots of people (struggling or not) that will feel the same.

[archie]

So it’s not really a matter of scale at all then?

FWIW I don’t think those that are trying to eat on pennies, and don’t give a **** about the king, his family, or his coronation, will find 35,000 pounds trivial.

Would they find £20m trivial?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/snp-leadership-race-humza-yousafs-grievance-politics-contrasts-with-kate-forbes-positive-message-about-tackling-poverty-scotsman-comment-4050572


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[maltman91]

Would they find £20m trivial?

I broke it down to each percentage of each budget. What else are you wanting.

If 0.01% of the budget isn't trivial then 0.03% isn't either. Even though as someone mentioned 0.03% of the Scottish budget is getting used on somthing they were elected on. Can you say the same about borders council.

[Paul1642]

I’m a republican so I wouldn’t be that impressed at my council spending money on this. Plenty of others will want to celebrate the coronation though, it’s a huge event so I guess they would be quite pleased.
Yes, people are struggling but I quite like the fireworks display my council puts on, the celebrations they organise at new year and the various festivals they fund throughout the rest of the year. Should we be spending money on any of those things?

Pretty much my thoughts. It’s an occasion that only happens a few times in anyone’s lifetime and some people do care about. It’s not for me but a sizeable minority will appreciate it, just like the other things you mention.

Councils fund various clubs, causes and events that mean nothing to most people and it probably levels out that each person gets something that they care about / are interested in funded.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ash Regan won't give them the stone of Scone

ScotNational
·

NEW: Ash Regan has said that she would refuse to return the Stone of Destiny to England for King Charles’s coronation

The SNP leadership candidate said it needs to stay 'in its rightful place

[Ozyhibby]

Ash Regan won't give them the stone of Scone

ScotNational
·

NEW: Ash Regan has said that she would refuse to return the Stone of Destiny to England for King Charles’s coronation

The SNP leadership candidate said it needs to stay 'in its rightful place

Absolute nonsense behaviour. And I doubt that sort of stuff has much support in the SNP these days either.


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[Glory Lurker]

Absolute nonsense behaviour. And I doubt that sort of stuff has much support in the SNP these days either.


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It's not a big issue for me but it's an artefact that was stolen and probably on a par with items the European empires plundered on their travels. We should keep it. Not that we've got it back fully, of course, as it was always a conditional return.

[Skol]

It's not a big issue for me but it's an artefact that was stolen and probably on a par with items the European empires plundered on their travels. We should keep it. Not that we've got it back fully, of course, as it was always a conditional return.

The words after ‘but’ suggest it is an issue for you

[Glory Lurker]

The words after ‘but’ suggest it is an issue for you

Nah. I hadn't really thought about it until seeing these posts and just plopped my thoughts out.

[Skol]

It's not a big issue for me but it's an artefact that was stolen and probably on a par with items the European empires plundered on their travels. We should keep it. Not that we've got it back fully, of course, as it was always a conditional return.

The words after ‘but’ suggest it is an issue for you

[WeeRussell]

The words after ‘but’ suggest it is an issue for you

It’s not an issue for me but I still think Jim Goodwin wasn’t the right move for Dundee Utd.

[Skol]

It’s not an issue for me but I still think Jim Goodwin wasn’t the right move for Dundee Utd.

Agree on goodwin:cb

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2168ed32-bac0-11ed-9175-9df34c1978e4?shareToken=918f0b2dd23ea11a5267ff58a4 34e3d7

A leading economist has backed Ash Regan’s plan for a Scottish currency if Scotland became independent.

Tony Mackay said the SNP leadership contender’s plan was a better option than to continue sharing the pound.

Mackay who advises the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank and the European Commission, has been critical of the Scottish government’s economic policies. But the economist, who advised the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina after its independence from Yugoslavia, said an independent Scotland would be better served by its own currency and central bank, rather than having its monetary system controlled by the rest of the UK.

Mackay, based in Inverness, said: “There are similar countries in Europe with their own currency, notably Norway. Also, Denmark and Sweden, which although members of the EU, have retained their own currencies.”

However, the economist, who helped set up Norway’s £1 trillion oil and gas sovereign wealth fund in the 1970s, said Regan’s plan to establish a currency within “a couple of months” after independence may be too soon.


He said: “The best timing would depend on how long there was between the independence vote and actual independence to make the required currency and banking changes. The value of a Scottish currency would almost certainly be significantly lower than sterling in the first few years of independence, but in the long run, I believe it would be the best choice.”

Regan has advocated independence without a referendum if enough voters support pro-independence parties in an election. Her currency plans have been described as “bonkers” by many of her SNP colleagues.

Professor Sir John Kay, a former economic adviser to the Scottish government, said the difficulties and opportunities of Scotland adopting its own currency have both been exaggerated.

However, he said the recommendations of the SNP’s sustainable growth commission, which said an independent Scotland should continue to use sterling for the foreseeable future, offered the best option in the short term.


Kay said: “Once an independent Scottish government has established its credentials for fiscal responsibility ... there would be an opportunity to review the functioning of the Scottish financial system. But in the short term, there is little to gain and much to lose from precipitate change, or the threat of it.”

In the run-up to the independence referendum in 2014, Martin Gilbert, who was head of Aberdeen Asset Management and tipped to head an independent Scottish central bank, suggested that a Scottish currency would work well if Westminster refused to let an independent Scotland use sterling. Alex Salmond’s government had suggested that it would refuse to take on its share of UK debt if Westminster blocked it from using sterling.

Gilbert said at the time: “Low or no debt would be the position if an independent Scotland were denied access to Bank of England financial assets, and that would leave the newly independent country in both budget and balance of payments surplus. Not a bad start.”

[grunt]

Acceptable?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqezbkqWYAYil5_?format=jpg&name=medium

Or not?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fqezb4TXwAEJZAA?format=jpg&name=large

[Kato]

Acceptable?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqezbkqWYAYil5_?format=jpg&name=medium

Or not?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fqezb4TXwAEJZAA?format=jpg&name=largePathetic.

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[He's here!]

Acceptable?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqezbkqWYAYil5_?format=jpg&name=medium

Or not?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fqezb4TXwAEJZAA?format=jpg&name=large

Quite imaginative the way they've transformed the desk into a Saltire.

[grunt]

Quite imaginative the way they've transformed the desk into a Saltire.

Are you suggesting that it's not photoshopped?

[Ozyhibby]

Humza must be feeling the heat as his last couple of tweets have been to the lgbtq community. Clearly trying to get back on social issues.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230306/a484e07b3dd4f37a2f33142032e1c659.jpg

Can’t see her keeping the whip long now. I think she’ll be an Alba mp before too much longer.


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[archie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230306/a484e07b3dd4f37a2f33142032e1c659.jpg

Can’t see her keeping the whip long now. I think she’ll be an Alba mp before too much longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is not an attempt to make a point, but a serious question. What impact would it have internally if she was expelled?

[Ozyhibby]

This is not an attempt to make a point, but a serious question. What impact would it have internally if she was expelled?

None really? She would become an independent mp. It’s not like she is popular in the party anyway?


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[CropleyWasGod]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230306/a484e07b3dd4f37a2f33142032e1c659.jpg

Can’t see her keeping the whip long now. I think she’ll be an Alba mp before too much longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is this another Court case looming for WoS?

[Smartie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230306/a484e07b3dd4f37a2f33142032e1c659.jpg

Can’t see her keeping the whip long now. I think she’ll be an Alba mp before too much longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Humza Yousaf wants to do what?

I'm surprised anyone is even engaging with "wings".

[superfurryhibby]

Humza Yousaf wants to do what?

I'm surprised anyone is even engaging with "wings".

I’m not that au fait with twitter but isn’t that the WOS guy engaging with Cherry’s tweet rather than the other way around?

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not that au fait with twitter but isn’t that the WOS guy engaging with Cherry’s tweet rather than the other way around?

No, it’s her engaging with him.


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[marinello59]

I’m not that au fait with twitter but isn’t that the WOS guy engaging with Cherry’s tweet rather than the other way around?

I thought that at first but rather incredibly it was her retweeting Wings vile slur. Just plain nasty.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230306/a484e07b3dd4f37a2f33142032e1c659.jpg

Can’t see her keeping the whip long now. I think she’ll be an Alba mp before too much longer.


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The mask hasn't just slipped, it's been thrown away.

[marinello59]

The mask hasn't just slipped, it's been thrown away.

Cherry is claiming that she made a mistake and had meant to reply to Yousaf’s tweet. Her tweet does make more sense if that is the case. A hell of a mistake to make though.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-is-living-in-a-fantasy-land/

'The SNP is living in a fantasy land'

[He's here!]

https://www.scotsman.com/

Robertson backing Yousef.

[marinello59]

https://www.scotsman.com/

Robertson backing Yousef.

Shocked. :greengrin

[neil7908]

The mask hasn't just slipped, it's been thrown away.

Indeed. How long have we heard that Cherry and others are definitely not transphobic at all, and even suggesting that is outrageous?

It may well have been a mistake but then pigs might also fly at some point.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-is-living-in-a-fantasy-land/

'The SNP is living in a fantasy land'

Interesting article. Just about every failing on it is worse in England but it is presented as proof we should stick with England?


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[Kato]

Interesting article. Just about every failing on it is worse in England but it is presented as proof we should stick with England?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe Spectator is living in a fantasy land.

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[grunt]

Just about every failing on it is worse in England but it is presented as proof we should stick with England?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhynXkCXcAAoTFW?format=jpg&name=small

[grunt]

'The SNP is living in a fantasy land'Is that the same Iain Macwhirter who was sacked by the Herald last year?

[superfurryhibby]

Cherry is claiming that she made a mistake and had meant to reply to Yousaf’s tweet. Her tweet does make more sense if that is the case. A hell of a mistake to make though.

Storm in a teacup. If she has said she replied to the wrong tweet, then fair enough for me. These things happen, what she wrote had no obvious connection to what the Rev Bampot tweeted.

In fact she has now re-tweeted the same response, to this tweet from Humza Yousaf

" If elected @theSNP leader and Scotland's next First Minister, I'll build on our track record of promoting and protecting the rights of LGBTQ+ people by:

1️⃣ Banning conversion practices.
2️⃣ Embedding LGBTQ+ rights in an independent Scotland’s constitution"

As she correctly points out, Trans rights are already protected under the Equality Act.

[neil7908]

Is that the same Iain Macwhirter who was sacked by the Herald last year?

The same one. Now writing in the same publication that continues to employ Rod Liddle to write such important intellectual pieces like the one the National highlights below:

https://www.thenational.scot/culture/23234749.rod-liddle-devastated-discovering-scottish-roots/

[grunt]

Storm in a teacup. If she has said she replied to the wrong tweet, then fair enough for me. These things happen, what she tweeted had no obvious connection to what the Rev Bampot tweeted.She has a history of speaking out against the SNP leadership & Sturgeon.

[marinello59]

She has a history of speaking out against the SNP leadership & Sturgeon.

But she doesn’t have a history of supporting vile slurs like the one Wings made in his Tweet. Which suggests that she did indeed make a mistake. Her tweet made no sense as a reply to Wings, it did as a reply to Yousaf.

[archie]

She has a history of speaking out against the SNP leadership & Sturgeon.

She also has a history of being badly treated and blocked by the SNP leadership and Sturgeon.

[Ozyhibby]

But she doesn’t have a history of supporting vile slurs like the one Wings made in his Tweet. Which suggests that she did indeed make a mistake. Her tweet made no sense as a reply to Wings, it did as a reply to Yousaf.

Honest mistake gov.[emoji6]


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[archie]

Honest mistake gov.[emoji6]


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Are you saying she's lying?

[marinello59]

Honest mistake gov.[emoji6]


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I think so but it’s just my opinion. If it wasn’t then the SNP is an even bigger nest of vipers than I thought. :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

Interesting article. Just about every failing on it is worse in England but it is presented as proof we should stick with England?


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Someone probably would have to have read the article before posting it to notice that. It actually reads like it could’ve been cobbled together using a few posts from select individuals on here.

[He's here!]

Interesting article. Just about every failing on it is worse in England but it is presented as proof we should stick with England?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seems to me the bulk of the failings alluded to - drugs deaths, education attainment gap, ferries fiasco, 'green' heating initiative, DRS scheme, gender reforms - are all exclusive to the SG.

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to me the bulk of the failings alluded to - drugs deaths, education attainment gap, ferries fiasco, 'green' heating initiative, DRS scheme, gender reforms - are all exclusive to the SG.

Wow, there is no education attainment gap in England? I’m blown away.


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[He's here!]

Wow, there is no education attainment gap in England? I’m blown away.


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Difference being I don't recall any PM saying that closing it should be their defining legacy (then abandoning their timescale for doing so and walking away with the gap wider than ever).

[Stairway 2 7]

Kate forbes says Scotland could be financially better off 10 years post independence

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scotland-humza-yousaf-first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-dumfries-b2295319.html

[archie]

Kate forbes says Scotland could be financially better off 10 years post independence

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scotland-humza-yousaf-first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-dumfries-b2295319.html

I think that's broadly in line with the Growth Commission report.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that's broadly in line with the Growth Commission report.

Are there many people predicting Scotland will be better off in 10 years time if we stay in the union?


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[archie]

Are there many people predicting Scotland will be better off in 10 years time if we stay in the union?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No idea. But you should read what she says closely. It would be better off 10 years after independence. Now if we assume there is a referendum that voted yes. If Brexit gives a clue it would be 3-5 years before independence. In 2014 the SNP stated it would be around 19 months, but that has been criticised as over ambitious. If we are generous then Scotland might be better off 13 years after an independence vote. It also implies that Scotland would be worse off for that period. And the key question is what does better off mean? Better off than rUK? Better off than when we started? It's all a bit vague. A wee bit short on the how.

[One Day Soon]

I think that's broadly in line with the Growth Commission report.

10 years to get back to where we are now. Hard pass.

[One Day Soon]

She has a history of speaking out against the SNP leadership & Sturgeon.

Speaking out against the Dear Leader. Outrageous.

[grunt]

Speaking out against the Dear Leader. Outrageous.When you realise she's supposed to be on the SNP team then it's a little strange to hear all her moaning about the SNP leadership. Still never mind eh, who cares about the SNP?

[Kato]

10 years to get back to where we are now. Hard pass.Or ten more years of absolutely going nowhere.

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[Ozyhibby]

10 years to get back to where we are now. Hard pass.

I’d say we have got poorer the last ten years. Who’s to say the next ten will be better? The UK is set up for managed decline now.


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[marinello59]

When you realise she's supposed to be on the SNP team then it's a little strange to hear all her moaning about the SNP leadership. Still never mind eh, who cares about the SNP?

Pretty normal in other parties. It’s been almost unheard of in the SNP though, a tribute to the way discipline was enforced during the Sturgeon years, it’s been remarkable.

[archie]

I’d say we have got poorer the last ten years. Who’s to say the next ten will be better? The UK is set up for managed decline now.


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Nice soundbite, but what do you base this on?

[grunt]

I’d say we have got poorer the last ten years. Who’s to say the next ten will be better? The UK is set up for managed decline now.
Where's your evidence that the decline is being managed? Looks like free-fall to me.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhynXkCXcAAoTFW?format=jpg&name=small

Surely meant something else?

[WeeRussell]

Or ten more years of absolutely going nowhere.

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Reverse! Reverse!

[Kato]

Nice soundbite, but what do you base this on?Instead of re-typing the history of the Ridley Plan and the Civilising Offensive on the Working Classes employed by the Torys and the media sympathetic to them I asked an AI bot....


"The term "managed decline" was used by Tory politicians to describe their attitude to Liverpool in the 1980s. What signs are there that this policy has spread to the rest of the UK as a whole?"


....the smarty pants AI bot replied...


"The term "managed decline" was indeed famously used by Tory politicians to describe their attitude towards Liverpool in the 1980s. While the term itself may no longer be in common use today, there are certainly signs that the policies and attitudes it represented have indeed spread to the rest of the UK.

One area in which this is particularly apparent is in the way that investment has been focused on certain parts of the country to the exclusion of others. For many years now, London and the Southeast have been the primary beneficiaries of much of the UK's economic growth and investment. This has left many other areas of the country, particularly those in the north and the Midlands, struggling to keep up.

Another sign of this trend is the way that traditional industries and manufacturing jobs have been allowed to decline in many parts of the UK. Again, this is especially true in areas like the north and the Midlands, where once-thriving industries such as mining and steelmaking have all but disappeared. This has not only caused economic hardship for those directly affected, but has also contributed to a sense of disillusionment and neglect among many people in these areas.

There are also concerns that the UK's public services - including healthcare, education, and social care - are suffering from a chronic lack of investment and support. Many experts believe that this is a direct result of the kind of short-term thinking and austerity policies that have been pursued by successive governments in recent years.

Overall, then, there are certainly signs that the kind of "managed decline" policies that were once used to describe Liverpool in the 1980s have spread to other parts of the UK as a whole. Whether or not this trend can be reversed remains to be seen, but it is clear that it will require a concerted effort from policymakers, businesses, and communities across the entire country."

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[Hibs4185]

Surely meant something else?

Why is this man given a platform? He’s a slavering old bafoon

[WeeRussell]

Why is this man given a platform? He’s a slavering old bafoon

Brandenburg is cool once you get to know him. Give him a chance.

[grunt]

Surely meant something else?
Can't find the quote - it was on a radio show. Reported here https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/diary-2508490

[grunt]

Brandenburg is cool once you get to know him. Give him a chance.:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Brandenburg is cool once you get to know him. Give him a chance.

Will you please be my friend :greengrin

[archie]

Instead of re-typing the history of the Ridley Plan and the Civilising Offensive on the Working Classes employed by the Torys and the media sympathetic to them I asked an AI bot....


"The term "managed decline" was used by Tory politicians to describe their attitude to Liverpool in the 1980s. What signs are there that this policy has spread to the rest of the UK as a whole?"


....the smarty pants AI bot replied...


"The term "managed decline" was indeed famously used by Tory politicians to describe their attitude towards Liverpool in the 1980s. While the term itself may no longer be in common use today, there are certainly signs that the policies and attitudes it represented have indeed spread to the rest of the UK.

One area in which this is particularly apparent is in the way that investment has been focused on certain parts of the country to the exclusion of others. For many years now, London and the Southeast have been the primary beneficiaries of much of the UK's economic growth and investment. This has left many other areas of the country, particularly those in the north and the Midlands, struggling to keep up.

Another sign of this trend is the way that traditional industries and manufacturing jobs have been allowed to decline in many parts of the UK. Again, this is especially true in areas like the north and the Midlands, where once-thriving industries such as mining and steelmaking have all but disappeared. This has not only caused economic hardship for those directly affected, but has also contributed to a sense of disillusionment and neglect among many people in these areas.

There are also concerns that the UK's public services - including healthcare, education, and social care - are suffering from a chronic lack of investment and support. Many experts believe that this is a direct result of the kind of short-term thinking and austerity policies that have been pursued by successive governments in recent years.

Overall, then, there are certainly signs that the kind of "managed decline" policies that were once used to describe Liverpool in the 1980s have spread to other parts of the UK as a whole. Whether or not this trend can be reversed remains to be seen, but it is clear that it will require a concerted effort from policymakers, businesses, and communities across the entire country."

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

I don't think sarcasm suits you. I don't believe that any political party in the UK supports managed decline. Why would they? The Thatcherite shift from manufacturing to services was not a good long term strategy in my view, but it was a strategy. I am very well aware of issues in the North of England, particularly Liverpool. But to suggest that's what's happening now needs a lot more explanation and dare I say it, evidence?

[Kato]

I don't think sarcasm suits you. I don't believe that any political party in the UK supports managed decline. Why would they? The Thatcherite shift from manufacturing to services was not a good long term strategy in my view, but it was a strategy. I am very well aware of issues in the North of England, particularly Liverpool. But to suggest that's what's happening now needs a lot more explanation and dare I say it, evidence?No sarcasm intended.

Where is the investment in the wider UK?

Why are amenities and infrastructure outwith the South East so decrepit?

What is the long term plan for fighting the UK's deficit?

What is the long term plan for bringing prosperity to the former industrialised communities?

What is being done to tackle disparity and bringing some dignity to the working classes?

Why do we have in work benefits?

Why do we have generations of families who known little else than a benefit culture?

I don't expect you to answer these questions, archie as there the actual answers are grim and points to little being done to address them.

Blairs govt stuck a band-aid on some of symptoms but did little to reverse the trend. 2 or 3 years of austerity saw most of the good stuff New Labour invoked reversed and its been all downhill since.

The Tories have published books calling our work force lazy and ne'erdowells. They have no intention of regenerating communities or bringing the country together towards anything as they simply don't care. Their big move was "levelling up" which has been shown to be a very expensive joke.

A benefits culture and the spiral if profit to offshore accounts is the epitome of a managed decline.

Unless you have some good news stories from the last 13 years in which Tory policies benefitted the whole nation I'm quite comfortable being of the belief that they have a policy of managed decline for everywhere outwith the South East of the nation.

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[Smartie]

No sarcasm intended.

Where is the investment in the wider UK?

Why are amenities and infrastructure outwith the South East so decrepit?

What is the long term plan for fighting the UK's deficit?

What is the long term plan for bringing prosperity to the former industrialised communities?

What is being done to tackle disparity and bringing some dignity to the working classes?

Why do we have in work benefits?

Why do we have generations of families who known little else than a benefit culture?

I don't expect you to answer these questions, archie as there the actual answers are grim and points to little being done to address them.

Blairs govt stuck a band-aid on some of symptoms but did little to reverse the trend. 2 or 3 years of austerity saw most of the good stuff New Labour invoked reversed and its been all downhill since.

The Tories have published books calling our work force lazy and ne'erdowells. They have no intention of regenerating communities or bringing the country together towards anything as they simply don't care. Their big move was "levelling up" which has been shown to be a very expensive joke.

A benefits culture and the spiral if profit to offshore accounts is the epitome of a managed decline.

Unless you have some good news stories from the last 13 years in which Tory policies benefitted the whole nation I'm quite comfortable being of the belief that they have a policy of managed decline for everywhere outwith the South East of the nation.

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What I’d add to that is that Scotland is a grotesquely unequal country. The difference in quality of life and prospects enjoyed by those at the top relative to those at the bottom are starkly different.

The managed decline will need to go on for some time (as it is managed) before many of those at the top start to feel it bite.

It’s quite easy to get doom and gloom about Scotland because so many are in the “have nots” group.

But it’s also important to remember how good life is for so many Scots.

And how many of their life choices, including political choices, will be driven by terror at being bumped in with society’s “have nots”.

“Managed decline” doesn’t strike fear into everyone. For a good few usual suspects it probably represents opportunity.

I find it hard to understand how anyone can see a future of anything other than managed decline whilst looking nicely after a chosen few, if Scotland remains in the union.

[Mibbes Aye]

No sarcasm intended.

Where is the investment in the wider UK?

Why are amenities and infrastructure outwith the South East so decrepit?

What is the long term plan for fighting the UK's deficit?

What is the long term plan for bringing prosperity to the former industrialised communities?

What is being done to tackle disparity and bringing some dignity to the working classes?

Why do we have in work benefits?

Why do we have generations of families who known little else than a benefit culture?

I don't expect you to answer these questions, archie as there the actual answers are grim and points to little being done to address them.

Blairs govt stuck a band-aid on some of symptoms but did little to reverse the trend. 2 or 3 years of austerity saw most of the good stuff New Labour invoked reversed and its been all downhill since.

The Tories have published books calling our work force lazy and ne'erdowells. They have no intention of regenerating communities or bringing the country together towards anything as they simply don't care. Their big move was "levelling up" which has been shown to be a very expensive joke.

A benefits culture and the spiral if profit to offshore accounts is the epitome of a managed decline.

Unless you have some good news stories from the last 13 years in which Tory policies benefitted the whole nation I'm quite comfortable being of the belief that they have a policy of managed decline for everywhere outwith the South East of the nation.

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I dont want to get into your whole post, probably agree with a fair amount, disagree on the analysis of New Labour.

But it is important to point out that poverty levels in London are far higher than the national average and even in the south-east excluding London, they are pretty similar to the national average.

[archie]

I think the 'managed decline' narrative is vital for those supporting independence. Why? Because it's a device to move people through the 'could, should, must' stages in a referendum. All the noise is about how nothing can change without independence, but there's little articulation as to how it would change in an independent Scotland. Looking at the leadership candidates: Kate is probably soft right and business focused; Ash appears to be of the MMT view and Humza's somewhere in the middle. These are competing visions as to how to take Scotland forward. And these competing visions would play out in an independent Scotland. But I don't believe any of them favours managed decline.

I think the doom narrative explains the visceral reaction to Labour and Starmer in particular. If he offers a more positive vision and, critically, if he delivers on some of that if elected, then separation looks less attractive.

[WeeRussell]

Will you please be my friend :greengrin

We’re either with you or against you 😁

[Smartie]

I think the 'managed decline' narrative is vital for those supporting independence. Why? Because it's a device to move people through the 'could, should, must' stages in a referendum. All the noise is about how nothing can change without independence, but there's little articulation as to how it would change in an independent Scotland. Looking at the leadership candidates: Kate is probably soft right and business focused; Ash appears to be of the MMT view and Humza's somewhere in the middle. These are competing visions as to how to take Scotland forward. And these competing visions would play out in an independent Scotland. But I don't believe any of them favours managed decline.

I think the doom narrative explains the visceral reaction to Labour and Starmer in particular. If he offers a more positive vision and, critically, if he delivers on some of that if elected, then separation looks less attractive.

I actually agree with a lot of this.

With independence we’re being faced with a risk / reward scenario. There are undeniable risks, there remain unanswered questions on key subjects and it will involve a step into the unknown.

For that to appeal, you have to have firmly appraised the status quo and decided it’s not for you, for whatever reason.

A lot rests on the shoulders of Starmer’s Labour government. Will they improve the lives of Scots? Will it be noticeable and will it be possible to communicate those improvements in a discernible way?

The strongest argument against “managed decline” is that “it will be better under Labour”.

Hopefully we’re about to find out.

[Kato]

I think the 'managed decline' narrative is vital for those supporting independence.

Or it could be just a feeling of empathy towards our fellow humans. I don't want my pals in Liverpool, Newcastle to live with those lack of prospects. I don't want my family down south to be three pieces of misfortune away from homelessness.

An independent Scotland living next door to an impoverished neighbour isn't good for anyone. Independence comes a poor second for me when people's livelihoods have been rendered so tenuous.

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[Kato]

I dont want to get into your whole post, probably agree with a fair amount, disagree on the analysis of New Labour.

But it is important to point out that poverty levels in London are far higher than the national average and even in the south-east excluding London, they are pretty similar to the national average.What is the legacy of New Labour?

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[Kato]

I think the 'managed decline' narrative is vital for those supporting independence. Why? Because it's a device to move people through the 'could, should, must' stages in a referendum. All the noise is about how nothing can change without independence, but there's little articulation as to how it would change in an independent Scotland. Looking at the leadership candidates: Kate is probably soft right and business focused; Ash appears to be of the MMT view and Humza's somewhere in the middle. These are competing visions as to how to take Scotland forward. And these competing visions would play out in an independent Scotland. But I don't believe any of them favours managed decline.

I think the doom narrative explains the visceral reaction to Labour and Starmer in particular. If he offers a more positive vision and, critically, if he delivers on some of that if elected, then separation looks less attractive. Can you show the doom narrative or the managed decline narrative is in fact that, a narrative - rather than the reality?

What aspects of the UK have some kind of optimism or route to prosperity?

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[archie]

Or it could be just a feeling of empathy towards our fellow humans. I don't want my pals in Liverpool, Newcastle to live with those lack of prospects. I don't want my family down south to three pieces of misfortune away from homelessness.

An independent Scotland living next door to an impoverished neighbour isn't good for anyone. Independence comes a poor second for me when people's livelihoods have been rendered so tenuous.

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Interesting. I was in the midlands recently and stayed the night in Stoke. That is a town centre that, to my mind, has collapsed. It reminded me of a number of the town's in Ayrshire. This needs sorted. The burning question is how?

[marinello59]

STV hustings. Yousaf sticking the knife in to the other two candidates with his opening statement. This could be fun :greengrin

[SteveHFC]

STV hustings. Yousaf sticking the knife in to the other two candidates with his opening statement. This could be fun :greengrin

“More of the same is an acceptance of mediocrity”, says Kate Forbes.

[Kato]

Interesting. I was in the midlands recently and stayed the night in Stoke. That is a town centre that, to my mind, has collapsed. It reminded me of a number of the town's in Ayrshire. This needs sorted. The burning question is how?Archie. You are fond of asking questions and answering few.

See ya

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[Ozyhibby]

At least everyone seems to agree we are in decline, even if we can’t decide if it’s managed or not. [emoji106]


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[marinello59]

“More of the same is an acceptance of mediocrity”, says Kate Forbes.

So far it looks like Forbes is the only grown up in the room.

[Kato]

At least everyone seems to agree we are in decline, even if we can’t decide if it’s managed or not. [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe bigger problems will arise when it gets bad enough not to bother managing it.

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[SteveHFC]

So far it looks like Forbes is the only grown up in the room.

Agreed.

Forbes is coming out so far as the best option.

[marinello59]

Yousaf looking more and more like the Murrell’s Puppet here. You can almost see the strings. I’m loving Regan, absolutely bonkers , she has no chance, only there for the banter. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Forbes question to Yousaf. :faf:
Brutal. I can’t wait to see how he returns the compliment.

[Skol]

God help us if yousaf gets the gig.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yousaf parents didn't get their moneys worth from his 13,000 a year school, he's awful

[marinello59]

Yousaf parents didn't get their moneys worth from his 13,000 a year school, he's awful

Im not so sure the state got their moneys worth from Ash Regan’s education either. :greengrin

[18Craig75]

I can’t believe the SNP have agreed to this format. It’s like they’re airing their dirty laundry in public.

[archie]

Archie. You are fond of asking questions and answering few.

See ya

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That wasn't my intention. I was expressing frustration with the issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

Im not so sure the state got their moneys worth from Ash Regan’s education either. :greengrin

Can't believe one of them will be our nation's leader, unreal

[Ozyhibby]

I can’t believe the SNP have agreed to this format. It’s like they’re airing their dirty laundry in public.

People always say this with every political party. What would you prefer? A shady back room deal? This is politics, it is a rough game. If any of these candidates think the other would be useless then now is the time to say so. No holding back. Love this.[emoji106]


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[Skol]

It’s hard to see the winner having any of the other two in one of their top jobs

[marinello59]

I can’t believe the SNP have agreed to this format. It’s like they’re airing their dirty laundry in public.

It’s great fun to watch. Honest debate.

[18Craig75]

It’s great fun to watch. Honest debate.

I don’t disagree, just surprised they’ve agreed; it hardly speaks of a United party!

I think Kate Forbes handled it well so far, maybe biased as I’ve been in her camp for a while. She’s taking the grown up approach in appealing to the undecided and No voters, that’s the path to Indy.

[Mibbes Aye]

Not so much three bald men fighting over a comb, more three bald men fighting over some superglue and shavings from a barber's floor.

Ash Regan is plumbing unfound shallows with her display of debate. As for Humza, is there no beginning to his talents?

Forbes is sticking to a script of bigger picture, being competent, wooing the No's etc. That's good for the national debate but will it cut it with the only voters who have a say here?

[Stairway 2 7]

Humza pushing social policies and more of the same, Regan focus on independence and Forbes putting economy first.

Depends on who they are trying to win is it SNP members, SNP voters, current no voters?

[Ozyhibby]

Gutted I’m missing this. Have to wait while my youngest watches Stranger things. Will watch afterwards.


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[marinello59]

I don’t disagree, just surprised they’ve agreed; it hardly speaks of a United party!

I think Kate Forbes handled it well so far, maybe biased as I’ve been in her camp for a while. She’s taking the grown up approach in appealing to the undecided and No voters, that’s the path to Indy.

Im not an SNP supporter but I’m been really impressed by the way Forbes is emphasising what we can do rather then what we can’t do when it comes to the cost of living etc. I’m not so sure that will resonate with the SNP membership so much though.

[Skol]

Humza pushing social policies and more of the same, Regan focus on independence and Forbes putting economy first.

Depends on who they are trying to win is it SNP members, SNP voters, current no voters?

It must be tough if you are an snp member. My take is that Forbes appeals more to no voters. Yousuf to snp voters and potentially Regan to the members, although they will find it hard not to support the favoured party candidate.

[Smartie]

Gutted I’m missing this. Have to wait while my youngest watches Stranger things. Will watch afterwards.


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It was painful to watch and I turned it off, having satisfied myself that Forbes was the strongest candidate and having confirmed my satisfaction with my decision to give up my SNP membership a decade or so ago.

[Stairway 2 7]

Im not an SNP supporter but I’m been really impressed by the way Forbes is emphasising what we can do rather then what we can’t do when it comes to the cost of living etc. I’m not so sure that will resonate with the SNP membership so much though.

I'm not sure humza has actually said anything of substance it's all just buzzwords, I'd go further and I don't think he understands alot of the subjects.

Forbes I think clearly was most competent but I think she won't win with members. Regan is the only one that wants independence back front and centre

[18Craig75]

Im not an SNP supporter but I’m been really impressed by the way Forbes is emphasising what we can do rather then what we can’t do when it comes to the cost of living etc. I’m not so sure that will resonate with the SNP membership so much though.

I’m an independence supporter more so than an SNP, Green or Alba supporter. Clearly KF needs the membership vote first and foremost but I hope enough of them see the long term strategy. I’ve always said that the SNP don’t need to appeal to the more hardcore of their movement, they’re yes voters and won’t change. They need to target the maybes & soft no’s.

[marinello59]

That was fascinating. Brutal at times, honest and passionate. . Kate Forbes savaging of Yousaf’s record was definitely the highlight.

[Mibbes Aye]

Gutted I’m missing this. Have to wait while my youngest watches Stranger things. Will watch afterwards.


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Fantastical weird beings, living in an alternate universe that nevertheless occasionally bumps up against the reality of normal life. On many levels, a children's show, but one which adults equally enjoy watching, with a mixture of horror and amusement at the self-parody.

And then there's Stranger Things of course.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thread with a run down and quotes from a number in the snp including an msp fuming that Forbes demolished Yousaf and therfore the government she is a part of.

https://mobile.twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1633225866514690049

[Ozyhibby]

I’m actually enjoying this debate. I’m thinking Forbes is edging it but maybe I’m biased because I like her economy first approach.


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[Hibs4185]

I’m actually enjoying this debate. I’m thinking Forbes is edging it but maybe I’m biased because I like her economy first approach.


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The only way to independence is to be focused on the economy and winning over the business leaders and business community who would be the driving Force of an independent Scotland. NS was hated by the majority of the business community.

[Hibs4185]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1633229505958498306/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1633229505958498306&currentTweetUser=AgentP22

Just watched this….Forbes destroying Humza on his record in government. It’s not going down well with the continuity supporters

[One Day Soon]

I’d say we have got poorer the last ten years. Who’s to say the next ten will be better? The UK is set up for managed decline now.


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Not sure what your evidence is for that but it doesn’t negate my point. She’s effectively saying - as was the Growth Commission - that we would have to go through a decade of 5hit just to get back to where we started. That’s like saying ‘austerity has been 5hit, let’s make it far worse, but in ten years we’ll back to exactly where we are now’.

[One Day Soon]

The only way to independence is to be focused on the economy and winning over the business leaders and business community who would be the driving Force of an independent Scotland. NS was hated by the majority of the business community.

One of the reasons why Labour’s coffers in Scotland are bulging at the moment is because large chunks of business see the present Scottish Government as anti business. My understanding is they are donating generously and regularly.

[Kato]

Not sure what your evidence is for that but it doesn’t negate my point. She’s effectively saying - as was the Growth Commission - that we would have to go through a decade of 5hit just to get back to where we started. That’s like saying ‘austerity has been 5hit, let’s make it far worse, but in ten years we’ll back to exactly where we are now’.What trajectory are we on at the moment?

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[neil7908]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1633229505958498306/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1633229505958498306&currentTweetUser=AgentP22

Just watched this….Forbes destroying Humza on his record in government. It’s not going down well with the continuity supporters

This is the bit I don't get. I'll be honest and say I'm not a fan of any of them.

But Forbes has been part of the same Government for what, 3 years nearly? And now she's describing that time as mediocre. Surely that's reflects poorly on her, especially as she held a senior position in that time.

I'm much closer to Humza on the issues but he doesn't convince me. If Forbes gets the nomination though I'll be nowhere near SNP again. It's clear they will move to a centre or centre right party as they were before - Tartan Tories v2.

[Ozyhibby]

This is the bit I don't get. I'll be honest and say I'm not a fan of any of them.

But Forbes has been part of the same Government for what, 3 years nearly? And now she's describing that time as mediocre. Surely that's reflects poorly on her, especially as she held a senior position in that time.

I'm much closer to Humza on the issues but he doesn't convince me. If Forbes gets the nomination though I'll be nowhere near SNP again. It's clear they will move to a centre or centre right party as they were before - Tartan Tories v2.

Which of her policies would you describe as right wing?


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[Ozyhibby]

Looking at headlines and Twitter chat this morning I would say that it was a successful night for Forbes. She has managed to change the narrative away from social issues and onto the economy and also Humza’s record. That’s much safer territory for her.


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[marinello59]

Which of her policies would you describe as right wing?


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Maybe a question for Yousaf as well who said to her “ If change means lurching to the right, Kate, if it means rolling back on progressive values, that's not the right change."

They didn’t hold back on each other, I’m guessing one will be First Minister and the others ministerial career will be over for a while.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe a question for Yousaf as well who said to her “ If change means lurching to the right, Kate, if it means rolling back on progressive values, that's not the right change."

They didn’t hold back on each other, I’m guessing one will be First Minister and the others ministerial career will be over for a while.

I don’t think so. Forbes said she would ask Yousaf to be in her cabinet. And I’m sure he would be smart enough to do the same.


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[neil7908]

Which of her policies would you describe as right wing?


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No policies have really been covered yet but she's voiced clear disapproval of how the SNP have governed. So change is coming under her apparently, and I don't think it will be a further step to the left...

[archie]

I don’t think so. Forbes said she would ask Yousaf to be in her cabinet. And I’m sure he would be smart enough to do the same.


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Yes, but she made it as humiliating as possible.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, but she made it as humiliating as possible.

People see what they want to see. She was the only one of the three to commit to offering the other two jobs but because she has someone else in mind for health it’s her that is humiliating the other two?


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[archie]

People see what they want to see. She was the only one of the three to commit to offering the other two jobs but because she has someone else in mind for health it’s her that is humiliating the other two?


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Oh Ozy - she eviserated him last night.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh Ozy - she eviserated him last night.

She did and he’s going to have to fight back. That’s a good thing. Last thing I want to see is three empty vessels up there agreeing with each other on everything and saying how great they all were.
You want to be FM you better be willing to fight for it.


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[archie]

She did and he’s going to have to fight back. That’s a good thing. Last thing I want to see is three empty vessels up there agreeing with each other on everything and saying how great they all were.
You want to be FM you better be willing to fight for it.


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You only have to look at the Tories recent leadership mess to see how that plays out. The idea that losers will pat the winner on the back and all is forgotten is fanciful. Anything Kate Forbes would offer Humza would be seen as a demotion. I suspect the Greens would push back at Kate Forbes being in government at all. And the 'wider Yes movement' seem to coalesce around Ash. It's maybe indicative of the SNP not having a real leadership contest in almost 20 years.

[Ozyhibby]

You only have to look at the Tories recent leadership mess to see how that plays out. The idea that losers will pat the winner on the back and all is forgotten is fanciful. Anything Kate Forbes would offer Humza would be seen as a demotion. I suspect the Greens would push back at Kate Forbes being in government at all. And the 'wider Yes movement' seem to coalesce around Ash. It's maybe indicative of the SNP not having a real leadership contest in almost 20 years.

The ‘wider Yes movement seem to coalesce round Ash’ ?
Not sure I see that?


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[grunt]

And the 'wider Yes movement' seem to coalesce around Ash.
:confused:

[archie]

The ‘wider Yes movement seem to coalesce round Ash’ ?
Not sure I see that?


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Wings, Commonweal, Tim Rideout advising.

[grunt]

Wings, Commonweal, Tim Rideout advising.:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Wings, Commonweal, Tim Rideout advising.

So about a handful of people?


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[archie]

:greengrin

SALVO, Yours for Scotland. Obviously you'll know more about internecine struggles in the yes movement than me, but all of these groups do seem to have some following? But care tobsay why it’s funny?

[He's here!]

Can't believe one of them will be our nation's leader, unreal

The UK's in no danger of breaking up any time soon with any of those three stooges as FM. It was like a contest to see who has the least irritating voice. Yousef probably edged that one. I eventually had to switch channels while Forbes was talking. Unbearable.

[grunt]

The UK's in no danger of breaking up any time soon with any of those three stooges as FM. It was like a contest to see who has the least irritating voice. Yousef probably edged that one. I eventually had to switch channels while Forbes was talking. Unbearable.You are absolutely spot on, completely correct. The most important factor in determining our country's leader is the sound of their voice.

[grunt]

But care tobsay why it’s funny?The thought that Wings is representative of "the wider Yes movement".

[archie]

The thought that Wings is representative of "the wider Yes movement".

OK I'll defer to your view. What would be representative if not the groups I mentioned.

[Ozyhibby]

OK I'll defer to your view. What would be representative if not the groups I mentioned.

The SNP?


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[He's here!]

You are absolutely spot on, completely correct. The most important factor in determining our country's leader is the sound of their voice.

Not the most important factor but these things matter. Any rational person could have predicted Liz Truss would be a disaster even before she became PM just by having to endure listening to her voice.

[Ozyhibby]

Not the most important factor but these things matter. Any rational person could have predicted Liz Truss would be a disaster even before she became PM just by having to endure listening to her voice.

Each to their own I suppose. I’m pretty comfortable with Scottish accents. Even posh ones.


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[archie]

The SNP?


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That's very revealing.

[J-C]

That's very revealing.

Why, the party was set up to gain independence.

[archie]

Why, the party was set up to gain independence.

Yeah, but the whole narrative around Yes Scotland was about a 'wider yes movement ' beyond the SNP. It was a deliberate ( and quite successful) strategy. This suggests there is no wider yes movement, but I suspect others might disagree. Certainly the Greens and Alba would have a view,nas would the various iterations of AUOB.

[J-C]

Greens have only been yes for a short period and Alba was set up by a disgruntled Salmond. There are many yes voters who don't support the SNP, this is seen by AUOB marches.

[Moulin Yarns]

Greens have only been yes for a short period and Alba was set up by a disgruntled Salmond. There are many yes voters who don't support the SNP, this is seen by AUOB marches.

Yep, even Labour for yes, rangers fans for yes and possibly even the odd Conservative for yes!!!

[Santa Cruz]

Yep, even Labour for yes, rangers fans for yes and possibly even the odd Conservative for yes!!!

and 46% of Green Party voters for No.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

[Iain G]

Greens have only been yes for a short period and Alba was set up by a disgruntled Salmond. There are many yes voters who don't support the SNP, this is seen by AUOB marches.

Alba was set up so the fat jambo egomaniac could pretend to himself that he is still relevant...

[superfurryhibby]

and 46% of Green Party voters for No.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence


An opinion poll by Lord Ashcroft Polls found that only 43 per cent of those who intended to vote Green in a constituency supported independence, while 46 per cent were against it.

Of those likely to vote Green in the regional list vote 68 per cent would support independence, while 23 per cent would vote against it.

Commenting on the polling, Scottish Greens co-leader Lorna Slater said: “The Scottish Greens support independence for a purpose, so that we can become a normal European country and lead the continent in renewable energy.

[Kato]

You are absolutely spot on, completely correct. The most important factor in determining our country's leader is the sound of their voice.He's here liked Truss's voice.

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[Santa Cruz]

An opinion poll by Lord Ashcroft Polls found that only 43 per cent of those who intended to vote Green in a constituency supported independence, while 46 per cent were against it.

Of those likely to vote Green in the regional list vote 68 per cent would support independence, while 23 per cent would vote against it.

Commenting on the polling, Scottish Greens co-leader Lorna Slater said: “The Scottish Greens support independence for a purpose, so that we can become a normal European country and lead the continent in renewable energy.

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, are you thinking the 68% Green regional list voter's are Green Party voters? I would have thought that % was mainly SNP voters, voting tactically.

[archie]

Yep, even Labour for yes, rangers fans for yes and possibly even the odd Conservative for yes!!!

Oh yes, there was this famous Labour for Yes group https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-supporters-caught-posing-pictures-2111409

[He's here!]

This is the bit I don't get. I'll be honest and say I'm not a fan of any of them.

But Forbes has been part of the same Government for what, 3 years nearly? And now she's describing that time as mediocre. Surely that's reflects poorly on her, especially as she held a senior position in that time.

I'm much closer to Humza on the issues but he doesn't convince me. If Forbes gets the nomination though I'll be nowhere near SNP again. It's clear they will move to a centre or centre right party as they were before - Tartan Tories v2.

Certainly seemed disingenuous to trash the records of a government she's actually a key part of, almost like the 'mediocrity' had nothing to do with her.

[One Day Soon]

Oh yes, there was this famous Labour for Yes group https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-supporters-caught-posing-pictures-2111409


Labour for Yes :faf:

There were a whole range of pro-independence groups that sprung up in the murkiest of financial funding circumstances (sound familiar?) around the referendum. Some people believe that a vast number of these were SNP front groups being started and run by SNP people using money of dubious origin to portray an upswell of support for independence from all 'airts and pairts'. Some people might be right.

[Ozyhibby]

Certainly seemed disingenuous to trash the records of a government she's actually a key part of, almost like the 'mediocrity' had nothing to do with her.

I think it’s reasonable to think any new leader would want to take a slightly different direction. NS was the biggest factor in the direction the SG went in and Forbes as finance director made sure it could be done while balancing the books. I’d say she done a fine job. That doesn’t mean she would do different things. Or that she didn’t think that some depts could be run better. I’m sure all three candidates think that. As is the case in any other party.


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[WeeRussell]

Each to their own I suppose. I’m pretty comfortable with Scottish accents. Even posh ones.


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Add it to a long list and history of someone not liking anything Scottish. Very strange.

[heretoday]

Certainly seemed disingenuous to trash the records of a government she's actually a key part of, almost like the 'mediocrity' had nothing to do with her.

The TV debate format forces the candidates to adopt those positions. It's not a good look - like Truss and Sunak.
I'd be happy if it was kept in-house with the SNP. We'd get the same result anyway.

[grunt]

The TV debate format forces the candidates to adopt those positions. It's not a good look - like Truss and Sunak.
I'd be happy if it was kept in-house with the SNP. We'd get the same result anyway.
Maybe we should choose the leader this way? :wink:

https://images.ctfassets.net/7bl72ehz66j1/4A0lfxxoRkltmhxDXhYA5s/973862443701361372a4dbe0b7748a53/the_voice_uk_sr6_ep1_11.jpg?fm=avif&fit=fill&w=830&h=550&q=80

[Smartie]

Labour for Yes :faf:

There were a whole range of pro-independence groups that sprung up in the murkiest of financial funding circumstances (sound familiar?) around the referendum. Some people believe that a vast number of these were SNP front groups being started and run by SNP people using money of dubious origin to portray an upswell of support for independence from all 'airts and pairts'. Some people might be right.

I guess that if you throw enough mud, eventually some sticks but whilst plenty of rumour and allegation gets thrown around is there really anything more dubious regarding funding of independence groups relative to other political parties / groups? Or anything actually proven, anyway?

"Labour for Yes" might seem a crazy notion now that Labour have firmly gone all Union Jack on us, but whilst we have had political deadlock of late there was a volatile period of fairly seismic change in Scottish politics during the years leading up to and following the referendum.

It can be difficult to imagine how things once were when we get so used to how things are now but is "Labour for Yes" (presumably now a dead entity as most who would have been part of such an organisation at the time will have jumped ship to the SNP by now, helping fuel much of the SNP's electoral success over the past decade) such a laughable concept?

[He's here!]

The TV debate format forces the candidates to adopt those positions. It's not a good look - like Truss and Sunak.
I'd be happy if it was kept in-house with the SNP. We'd get the same result anyway.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1633217650338693121?s=20

[He's here!]

Each to their own I suppose. I’m pretty comfortable with Scottish accents. Even posh ones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not her accent, it's the worst type of patronising primary school teacher tone that jars. And I've worked alongside a few.

[superfurryhibby]

Labour for Yes :faf:

There were a whole range of pro-independence groups that sprung up in the murkiest of financial funding circumstances (sound familiar?) around the referendum. Some people believe that a vast number of these were SNP front groups being started and run by SNP people using money of dubious origin to portray an upswell of support for independence from all 'airts and pairts'. Some people might be right.

Yes, it's almost there wasn't a huge number of pro-union groups springing up at the same time.



Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, are you thinking the 68% Green regional list voter's are Green Party voters? I would have thought that % was mainly SNP voters, voting tactically.

No I'm quoting directly from the article I linked to.

Who knows the profile of the Green list voter, maybe they cut across party political boundaries due to their green agenda. One way or another, they were Green voters though, list or otherwise?

[Iain G]

Maybe we should choose the leader this way? :wink:

https://images.ctfassets.net/7bl72ehz66j1/4A0lfxxoRkltmhxDXhYA5s/973862443701361372a4dbe0b7748a53/the_voice_uk_sr6_ep1_11.jpg?fm=avif&fit=fill&w=830&h=550&q=80

Or bring back The Krypton Factor! That will sort them out!

[SteveHFC]

Or bring back The Krypton Factor! That will sort them out!

Takeshi's Castle. Whoever storms the castle is the new leader.

[Iain G]

Takeshi's Castle. Whoever storms the castle is the new leader.

Maybe it's a series of 5 cult quizzes and games and the winner is announced at the end...

Takeshi's Castle
The Krypton Factor
Going for Gold
Give Us A Clue
Bullseye

Does that work? 😁

[Kato]

Maybe it's a series of 5 cult quizzes and games and the winner is announced at the end...

Takeshi's Castle
The Krypton Factor
Going for Gold
Give Us A Clue
Bullseye

Does that work? [emoji16]Jasper Carrots short lived Goldenballs for me. The snidiest TV show ever.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

NS says she didn't watch the debate but was following tweets, nah

https://mobile.twitter.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1633480633237352452

ginadavidsonlbc
Nicola Sturgeon on her way to the chamber asked about last night’s TV debate - says she didn’t watch it 👀
@LBC

[archie]

I guess that if you throw enough mud, eventually some sticks but whilst plenty of rumour and allegation gets thrown around is there really anything more dubious regarding funding of independence groups relative to other political parties / groups? Or anything actually proven, anyway?

"Labour for Yes" might seem a crazy notion now that Labour have firmly gone all Union Jack on us, but whilst we have had political deadlock of late there was a volatile period of fairly seismic change in Scottish politics during the years leading up to and following the referendum.

It can be difficult to imagine how things once were when we get so used to how things are now but is "Labour for Yes" (presumably now a dead entity as most who would have been part of such an organisation at the time will have jumped ship to the SNP by now, helping fuel much of the SNP's electoral success over the past decade) such a laughable concept?

The picture I posted of Labour for Yes had SNP Councillors in it!

[Mibbes Aye]

As any fool knows, any entity purporting to be a liberal democracy and faced with such a situation, only has one reasonable and defensible approach open to it.


DANCE SHOWDOWN!!!!!

[Berwickhibby]

As any fool knows, any entity purporting to be a liberal democracy and faced with such a situation, only has one reasonable and defensible approach open to it.


DANCE SHOWDOWN!!!!!

ON ICE :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

ON ICE :greengrin

:agree:

Breakers’n’skaters, show us some swag!!

Hum-Zee to the You; Ash,Ash Regan and Professor F let’s see those Power Moves!!

Just an idea, of course.

[Smartie]

As any fool knows, any entity purporting to be a liberal democracy and faced with such a situation, only has one reasonable and defensible approach open to it.


DANCE SHOWDOWN!!!!!

I think this might be the first post in the history of the Holy Ground that has the potential to unite everyone of all political leanings.

[One Day Soon]

I think this might be the first post in the history of the Holy Ground that has the potential to unite everyone of all political leanings.

Sorry to be a curmudgeon and dash your hopes but I ****ing hate all these dance-your-x-factor-masked-singer-voice things. TBF, I've hated them from way back since New Faces in the 70's. I vastly prefer the political Hunger Games we saw last night.

[archie]

I think this might be the first post in the history of the Holy Ground that has the potential to unite everyone of all political leanings.

It's a knockout? Tough I suspect none of the candidates will have seen it!

[The Modfather]

Maybe it's a series of 5 cult quizzes and games and the winner is announced at the end...

Takeshi's Castle
The Krypton Factor
Going for Gold
Give Us A Clue
Bullseye

Does that work? 😁

Replicate Schwarzenegger’s Running Man film. The posters that dominate the Holy Ground - Tory, SNP, Labour, Pro Independence, anti Independence etc, can man each section then we can appoint Arnie for FM as well as thinning the political herd. Win win.

#VoteArnie

[WeeRussell]

Maybe it's a series of 5 cult quizzes and games and the winner is announced at the end...

Takeshi's Castle
The Krypton Factor
Going for Gold
Give Us A Clue
Bullseye

Does that work? 😁

Pensioners already get their B.F.H.

That’s your Bus. Fare. Home.

[Stairway 2 7]

Forbes growing in popularity but its all up to snp members


Channel 4 News
@Channel4News
EXCLUSIVE POLL: Kate Forbes is in the lead as the public’s choice to replace Nicola Sturgeon as first minister of Scotland - with Humza Yousaf and Forbes neck-and-neck among SNP voters

The exclusive polling data from
@IpsosScotland
finds that Forbes has an 8-point lead over Yousaf among the general public, although overall ratings are lukewarm.

One in three say either that none of the candidates would make the best First Minister, or that they don’t know.

The race is too close to call between Yousaf and Forbes when looking at the views of SNP voters from the last Scottish Parliament election.

33% say that Humza Yousaf would make the best First Minister while 32% say the same of Kate Forbes. Ash Regan takes third place with 10%.

[archie]

Forbes growing in popularity but its all up to snp members


Channel 4 News
@Channel4News
EXCLUSIVE POLL: Kate Forbes is in the lead as the public’s choice to replace Nicola Sturgeon as first minister of Scotland - with Humza Yousaf and Forbes neck-and-neck among SNP voters

The exclusive polling data from
@IpsosScotland
finds that Forbes has an 8-point lead over Yousaf among the general public, although overall ratings are lukewarm.

One in three say either that none of the candidates would make the best First Minister, or that they don’t know.

The race is too close to call between Yousaf and Forbes when looking at the views of SNP voters from the last Scottish Parliament election.

33% say that Humza Yousaf would make the best First Minister while 32% say the same of Kate Forbes. Ash Regan takes third place with 10%.

I guess the question is whether members vote for who best aligns with them or who they think will be popular with wider voters.

[Stairway 2 7]

Some of the gravy train cultists aren't happy at Forbes telling the useless Yousaf that he is useless and questioning the snps record

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f4d318ea-bdcd-11ed-8959-aac6a1130ac2?shareToken=acc627439b87c4f4f547ebe1f3 495124

[heretoday]

These TV debates are a disaster.
Something else to thank our American cousins for, I suppose, along with baseball caps and McDonald's.

[marinello59]

These TV debates are a disaster.
Something else to thank our American cousins for, I suppose, along with baseball caps and McDonald's.

Surely seeing the candidates saying what they really think is a good thing? This one may have been bad for the SNP but it was good for democracy, it’s good to see the facade lifted.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Yet again, Forbes' naivety was front and centre in that debate, while her supporters, yet again, refuse to see what's right in front of them.

add ****ing in her own nest to publicly outing herself as a bigot and a Christian fundamentalist, and promising to defend Scotland's democratic will whilst simultaneously stating that she won't be doing that in the case of the GRR bill and section 35. Also suspiciously silent when people spoke about refugees during the debate.

What she has going for her: supreme confidence (probably because she literally 'knows' that God is on her side), and being very good at maths.

She's going to blow up in peoples' faces, and I don't look forward to it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/334279367_1321071315128010_7566531156249531919_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=tHN2JnQFE9YAX9Nc9ZL&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAtUwVXlZ3NvD81gO5k9wXJH2HXIw7Pu-lD_3KYkvBhaA&oe=640F2A21

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/334279367_1321071315128010_7566531156249531919_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=tHN2JnQFE9YAX9Nc9ZL&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAtUwVXlZ3NvD81gO5k9wXJH2HXIw7Pu-lD_3KYkvBhaA&oe=640F2A21

an indictment of the electorate's intellect and emotional and moral intelligence.

[archie]

Yet again, Forbes' naivety was front and centre in that debate, while her supporters, yet again, refuse to see what's right in front of them.

add ****ing in her own nest to publicly outing herself as a bigot and a Christian fundamentalist, and promising to defend Scotland's democratic will whilst simultaneously stating that she won't be doing that in the case of the GRR bill and section 35. Also suspiciously silent when people spoke about refugees during the debate.

What she has going for her: supreme confidence (probably because she literally 'knows' that God is on her side), and being very good at maths.

She's going to blow up in peoples' faces, and I don't look forward to it.

I don't think she's naive at all. Whether it works is a different matter.

[archie]

an indictment of the electorate's intellect and emotional and moral intelligence.

Well that's quite the strategy - if you don't vote for me you are stupid, morally degenerate and emotionally stunted.

[neil7908]

Douglas Ross using Forbes comments as an attack line against the Government (that she holds a senior position in) during FMQs.

[Hibs4185]

Douglas Ross using Forbes comments as an attack line against the Government (that she holds a senior position in) during FMQs.

Thankfully it’s only Douglas Ross.

[marinello59]

an indictment of the electorate's intellect and emotional and moral intelligence.

Doesn’t it say more about the SNP rather than the electorate? They’ve put these three forward as their brightest and best.

[Ozyhibby]

These TV debates are a disaster.
Something else to thank our American cousins for, I suppose, along with baseball caps and McDonald's.

The tv debates are great. Politicians need to get their views out there so we can decide. I’m a voter in this and without the tv debates I wouldn’t get much chance to see them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Some of the gravy train cultists aren't happy at Forbes telling the useless Yousaf that he is useless and questioning the snps record

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f4d318ea-bdcd-11ed-8959-aac6a1130ac2?shareToken=acc627439b87c4f4f547ebe1f3 495124


Certainly interesting to see how rapidly party unity has unravelled in the wake of Sturgeon's downfall. It's quite a call to trash the record of Sturgeon's government (especially when you're actually a part of it). Such heresy from within would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thankfully it’s only Douglas Ross.

Haha very good point. If you gave him a knife and told him to attacks he'd probably come back having accidentally stuck it in his nose

[AgentDaleCooper]

Well that's quite the strategy - if you don't vote for me you are stupid, morally degenerate and emotionally stunted.

who said anything about voting for me?

i'm talking about voting for a christian fundamentalist who has already contradicted herself as to whether this would interfere with her governance, is letting Westminster's use of section 35 go un-challenged, is opposed to marriage equality and has stated that she would have voted against it, and is now feeding campaign slogans to the opposition. Meanwhile, the electorate swallow the idea that she is 'competent' just because she is confident and good at maths. A lot pro independence people feel thoroughly on the defensive, and see Yousaf as the embodiment of what is causing them to be under attack, and are willing to drown their better judgement and vote for Forbes because independence comes at any cost.

[Stairway 2 7]

who said anything about voting for me?

i'm talking about voting for a christian fundamentalist who has already contradicted herself as to whether this would interfere with her governance, is letting Westminster's use of section 35 go un-challenged, is opposed to marriage equality and has stated that she would have voted against it, and is now feeding campaign slogans to the opposition. Meanwhile, the electorate swallow the idea that she is 'competent' just because she is confident and good at maths. A lot pro independence people feel thoroughly on the defensive, and see Yousaf as the embodiment of what is causing them to be under attack, and are willing to drown their better judgement and vote for Forbes because independence comes at any cost.
I think a lot of people rightly just think Yousaf is awful. Flynn or Robertson would have had this wrapped up a week ago. They must realise that, so there is a reason they are not going for it this time

[Ozyhibby]

Certainly interesting to see how rapidly party unity has unravelled in the wake of Sturgeon's downfall. It's quite a call to trash the record of Sturgeon's government (especially when you're actually a part of it). Such heresy from within would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago.

Downfall?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AgentDaleCooper]

I think a lot of people rightly just think Yousaf is awful. Flynn or Robertson would have had this wrapped up a week ago. They must realise that, so there is a reason they are not going for it this time

yeah, 100% - i'm not a Yousaf cheerleader by any means. I just don't think people realise what they are actually supporting with Forbes, folk are just explaining things away and not worrying about some pretty major issues that she has, and displaying in plain sight.

[Ozyhibby]

yeah, 100% - i'm not a Yousaf cheerleader by any means. I just don't think people realise what they are actually supporting with Forbes, folk are just explaining things away and not worrying about some pretty major issues that she has, and displaying in plain sight.

What are the major issues and what policies is she proposing that I should worry about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[archie]

who said anything about voting for me?

i'm talking about voting for a christian fundamentalist who has already contradicted herself as to whether this would interfere with her governance, is letting Westminster's use of section 35 go un-challenged, is opposed to marriage equality and has stated that she would have voted against it, and is now feeding campaign slogans to the opposition. Meanwhile, the electorate swallow the idea that she is 'competent' just because she is confident and good at maths. A lot pro independence people feel thoroughly on the defensive, and see Yousaf as the embodiment of what is causing them to be under attack, and are willing to drown their better judgement and vote for Forbes because independence comes at any cost.
I do wonder if your personal feelings on the issue are maybe affecting you here. Part of the rationale to take the section 35 to court is to assert the rights of the Scottish Parliament. The danger with GRR is that there is a lot of disquiet with the legislation. While we can never be certain, it's likely the challenge would fail. That could lead to an upswing in support for independence, but equally could see the Tories praised for blocking it. I don't think it's the slam dunk you think it is.

[Stairway 2 7]

yeah, 100% - i'm not a Yousaf cheerleader by any means. I just don't think people realise what they are actually supporting with Forbes, folk are just explaining things away and not worrying about some pretty major issues that she has, and displaying in plain sight.

It's difficult. I she clearly has the best chance of getting no voters and therfore independence, but at what cost. Her personal social opinions are from the dark ages and utterly stupid. I'd doubt though that the parties are as a whole so I doubt the party line would change much.

I was positive when NS went. I thought the polls are stagnant and something new could invigorate. I'm now despondent at the choices and would just put NS back

[Mon Dieu4]

yeah, 100% - i'm not a Yousaf cheerleader by any means. I just don't think people realise what they are actually supporting with Forbes, folk are just explaining things away and not worrying about some pretty major issues that she has, and displaying in plain sight.

Do you honestly think if Forbes won the whole of the SNP and their vote base would lurch to the right? I don't

[archie]

Do you honestly think if Forbes won the whole of the SNP and their vote base would lurch to the right? I don't

Have you considered that Kate Forbes might be more in tune with public opinion?

[Mon Dieu4]

Have you considered that Kate Forbes might be more in tune with public opinion?

I think she has a couple of mental personal views I don't agree with, other than that I think she's a fairly capable and intelligent person who isn't daft enough to bring her personal views into it and try and make the party go along with them

[archie]

Downfall?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well sudden, dramatic resignation, contradictory statements about how long she would serve, no succession plan, chaotic leadership campaign with candidates trashing her legacy and repeated allegations about her husband trying to swing the vote? It's not Berlin 1945, but it's not great.

[archie]

In all this noise I was thinking about how Derek Mackay must feel. Whatever you think of him, had he not thrown it away, he would most likely be a shoe in for FM. On a human level that's almost Shakespearean.

[Ozyhibby]

I think she has a couple of mental personal views I don't agree with, other than that I think she's a fairly capable and intelligent person who isn't daft enough to bring her personal views into it and try and make the party go along with them

That’s where I am. She has some views I think are mental but I can live with them because she is not proposing any policy changes around them. She looks most competent and appears to have a bit of a plan.

On the GRR, if you really want that past she might be your best bet. If I was the Tories I might be tempted to send it for a royal ascent and see what she does when she first takes office.
Maybe that’s just my mischievous mind though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Well sudden, dramatic resignation, contradictory statements about how long she would serve, no succession plan, chaotic leadership campaign with candidates trashing her legacy and repeated allegations about her husband trying to swing the vote? It's not Berlin 1945, but it's not great.

Think you might be reading too much into it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[neil7908]

I think she has a couple of mental personal views I don't agree with, other than that I think she's a fairly capable and intelligent person who isn't daft enough to bring her personal views into it and try and make the party go along with them

But she's already brought her personal views into it by saying she would have voted against gay marriage.

What puzzles me is that because this is now in the past people seem to just shrug their shoulders. But what about when the next issue comes up that clashes with her beliefs? She's literally told us what she wound do - go with her own views, not what is right for Scotland or what it's people think.

I find it baffling that any liberal minded SNP supporter wouldn't be very good worried about her approach to government based on her own statements. Whilst I appreciate the honesty, her worldviews are totally opposed to my own and she has confirmed she will act based on her own religious views.

I don't want an FM that merely tolerates equality issues, I want one that champions them.

[He's here!]

Downfall?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How else would you describe it? At least two of her would-be successors are busily scorching policies she staked her reputation on.

[archie]

Think you might be reading too much into it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So which bit isn't true?

[archie]

But she's already brought her personal views into it by saying she would have voted against gay marriage.

What puzzles me is that because this is now in the past people seem to just shrug their shoulders. But what about when the next issue comes up that clashes with her beliefs? She's literally told us what she wound do - go with her own views, not what is right for Scotland or what it's people think.

I find it baffling that any liberal minded SNP supporter wouldn't be very good worried about her approach to government based on her own statements. Whilst I appreciate the honesty, her worldviews are totally opposed to my own and she has confirmed she will act based on her own religious views.

I don't want an FM that merely tolerates equality issues, I want one that champions them.

What if they were more likely to win independence?

[Mon Dieu4]

But she's already brought her personal views into it by saying she would have voted against gay marriage.

What puzzles me is that because this is now in the past people seem to just shrug their shoulders. But what about when the next issue comes up that clashes with her beliefs? She's literally told us what she wound do - go with her own views, not what is right for Scotland or what it's people think.

I find it baffling that any liberal minded SNP supporter wouldn't be very good worried about her approach to government based on her own statements. Whilst I appreciate the honesty, her worldviews are totally opposed to my own and she has confirmed she will act based on her own religious views.

I don't want an FM that merely tolerates equality issues, I want one that champions them.

She isn't going to have an iron clad grasp on the party like Salmond or Sturgeon did, she's entitled to vote anyway she likes on any given subject, if her constituency don't like it they will vote her out, if she turns round and says everyone in the SNP needs to vote the way my views are aligned then she won't last too long

She's hardly going to incite hatred and have people storming Holyrood in some January 6th coup

[grunt]

an indictment of the electorate's intellect and emotional and moral intelligence.What makes you the moral arbiter?

[AgentDaleCooper]

What are the major issues and what policies is she proposing that I should worry about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well I’ve covered ad nauseum her regressive, Christian fundamentalist views about various matters, and her having stated that she would vote in accordance with these views. Presumably they would also inform how she would govern – all she has said is that she would respect the Scottish democratic will…but as I’ve said, she’s got an opportunity right now to put her money where her mouth is, and she’s categorically not doing it.
All the above is quite plainly worrying.

In terms of her policies, from what I gather, there are quite a few points that seem to suggest she’s going for a ‘Celtic Tiger’ era Ireland approach, which is great if you’re minted, and horrendous if you’re not.

All of her key points for the economy seem pretty neo-con, i.e. growing exports, increasing foreign investment and “internationally mobile finance”. She wants Scotland to become a “magnet for global private capital”. I wonder what that is realistically going to mean for things like equitable taxation, workers’ rights, the public sector and the environment. Her paper that she published last march, the ‘National Strategy for Economic Transformation’, mentions “flexible labour markets” twelve times – sounds a lot like more zero-hours contracts.

If you want a centre-right SNP, then maybe Forbes is for you. I think she’ll be an unmitigated disaster, even if she wins independence. Gone will be the days of Nordic-style aspirations – it’ll be all Apple and Google paying next to nothing in corporation tax, and an even worse housing crisis than there is now. The NHS in Scotland will be even more privatised, and the care sector will fall to bits.

If I’m wrong, or I’ve missed something of substance that she has said about vulnerable people, the environment, or, hell, ANYTHING progressive, do let me know :aok:

[AgentDaleCooper]

What makes you the moral arbiter?

i'm just going on the assumption that bigotry, Christian fundamentalism and selective hearing are all bad things.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well I’ve covered ad nauseum her regressive, Christian fundamentalist views about various matters, and her having stated that she would vote in accordance with these views. Presumably they would also inform how she would govern – all she has said is that she would respect the Scottish democratic will…but as I’ve said, she’s got an opportunity right now to put her money where her mouth is, and she’s categorically not doing it.
All the above is quite plainly worrying.

In terms of her policies, from what I gather, there are quite a few points that seem to suggest she’s going for a ‘Celtic Tiger’ era Ireland approach, which is great if you’re minted, and horrendous if you’re not.

All of her key points for the economy seem pretty neo-con, i.e. growing exports, increasing foreign investment and “internationally mobile finance”. She wants Scotland to become a “magnet for global private capital”. I wonder what that is realistically going to mean for things like equitable taxation, workers’ rights, the public sector and the environment. Her paper that she published last march, the ‘National Strategy for Economic Transformation’, mentions “flexible labour markets” twelve times – sounds a lot like more zero-hours contracts.

If you want a centre-right SNP, then maybe Forbes is for you. I think she’ll be an unmitigated disaster, even if she wins independence. Gone will be the days of Nordic-style aspirations – it’ll be all Apple and Google paying next to nothing in corporation tax, and an even worse housing crisis than there is now. The NHS in Scotland will be even more privatised, and the care sector will fall to bits.

If I’m wrong, or I’ve missed something of substance that she has said about vulnerable people, the environment, or, hell, ANYTHING progressive, do let me know :aok:

I think bar the social policies this whole post is presumption and projection on her financial policies. I'm not saying she will be left economically but she hasn't shown she will be right

[grunt]

i'm just going on the assumption that bigotry, Christian fundamentalism and selective hearing are all bad things.
Seems like there's a few on this thread hearing things they want to hear.

[Ozyhibby]

Well I’ve covered ad nauseum her regressive, Christian fundamentalist views about various matters, and her having stated that she would vote in accordance with these views. Presumably they would also inform how she would govern – all she has said is that she would respect the Scottish democratic will…but as I’ve said, she’s got an opportunity right now to put her money where her mouth is, and she’s categorically not doing it.
All the above is quite plainly worrying.

In terms of her policies, from what I gather, there are quite a few points that seem to suggest she’s going for a ‘Celtic Tiger’ era Ireland approach, which is great if you’re minted, and horrendous if you’re not.

All of her key points for the economy seem pretty neo-con, i.e. growing exports, increasing foreign investment and “internationally mobile finance”. She wants Scotland to become a “magnet for global private capital”. I wonder what that is realistically going to mean for things like equitable taxation, workers’ rights, the public sector and the environment. Her paper that she published last march, the ‘National Strategy for Economic Transformation’, mentions “flexible labour markets” twelve times – sounds a lot like more zero-hours contracts.

If you want a centre-right SNP, then maybe Forbes is for you. I think she’ll be an unmitigated disaster, even if she wins independence. Gone will be the days of Nordic-style aspirations – it’ll be all Apple and Google paying next to nothing in corporation tax, and an even worse housing crisis than there is now. The NHS in Scotland will be even more privatised, and the care sector will fall to bits.

If I’m wrong, or I’ve missed something of substance that she has said about vulnerable people, the environment, or, hell, ANYTHING progressive, do let me know :aok:

Both the Nordic model and the Irish model are better than what we have now. Both those economies work better than ours.


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[Ozyhibby]

I think bar the social policies this whole post is presumption and projection on her financial policies. I'm not saying she will be left economically but she hasn't shown she will be right

The whole reduction of poverty chat she keeps going on about worries me she is Thatcher mk 2.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Both the Nordic model and the Irish model are better than what we have now. Both those economies work better than ours.


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To be fair the Darien model had more hope than current UK government model

[grunt]

The whole reduction of poverty chat she keeps going on about worries me she is Thatcher mk 2.

Hasn't the reduction of poverty been an SNP policy objective in Sturgeon's time?

[archie]

Both the Nordic model and the Irish model are better than what we have now. Both those economies work better than ours.


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I think there's lots needing fixed here, but we shouldn't overhype other countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/07/sweden-worst-performing-eu-economy-bad-housing-policy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

https://businessplus.ie/economy/irish-economy-gdp-q4/

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2023/03/01/public-roars-over-health-care-crisis/

[Stairway 2 7]

The whole reduction of poverty chat she keeps going on about worries me she is Thatcher mk 2.


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For her 10 year strategy she chose to have trade unions on the board deciding the policy. In she wants rejoining the EU, focusing finances towards deprived areas, a stronger focus on scotland being fully renewable on energy, more immigration to help our jobs market.

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/economic-plan-signals-major-change-in-scottish-government-strategy#:~:text=The%20National%20Strategy%20for%2 0Economic,people%20and%20culture%3B%20new%20market

"Forbes also announced that a ‘fair work’ condition would apply to future Scottish government grants - requiring recipients to pay the real living wage – and promised to establish a “centre of expertise in equality and human rights” within the administration. She said the employability system would be simplified by implementing a “no one left behind” approach, focused on giving individuals the right support to help improve their life chances"

[Stairway 2 7]

I think there's lots needing fixed here, but we shouldn't overhype other countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/07/sweden-worst-performing-eu-economy-bad-housing-policy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

https://businessplus.ie/economy/irish-economy-gdp-q4/

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2023/03/01/public-roars-over-health-care-crisis/

Don't think they are the best links, all of they economies are predicted to grow more than the UK in the next 2 years?

[grunt]

"Forbes also announced that a ‘fair work’ condition would apply to future Scottish government grants - requiring recipients to pay the real living wage – and promised to establish a “centre of expertise in equality and human rights” within the administration. She said the employability system would be simplified by implementing a “no one left behind” approach, focused on giving individuals the right support to help improve their life chances"
"Neo-con!" "Zero hours contracts!" "Centre right!"

[One Day Soon]

Has anyone asked Forbes about the dinosaurs yet?

[grunt]

I think there's lots needing fixed here, but we shouldn't overhype other countries.

https://businessplus.ie/economy/irish-economy-gdp-q4/
Yeah, must be awful to have an annual GDP growth of only 12% in 2022.

I didn't bother to look at the others.

[archie]

Don't think they are the best links, all of they economies are predicted to grow more than the UK in the next 2 years?

I prefaced my point acknowledging the issues here, but pointing at other countries without context is often misleading. Ireland is a classic example. The GDP is inflated my multinationals who largely export profits. But most ordinary people have to pay to access health care.

[archie]

Yeah, must be awful to have an annual GDP growth of only 12% in 2022.

I didn't bother to look at the others.

If you look beyond the headline that is inflated by multinationals.

[One Day Soon]

I prefaced my point acknowledging the issues here, but pointing at other countries without context is often misleading. Ireland is a classic example. The GDP is inflated my multinationals who largely export profits. But most ordinary people have to pay to access health care.

No NHS in Ireland certainly.

But again I ask, weren't we supposed to be not comparing Scotland to other countries? Or is that only when the argument doesn't suit...

[Ozyhibby]

No NHS in Ireland certainly.

But again I ask, weren't we supposed to be not comparing Scotland to other countries? Or is that only when the argument doesn't suit...

No NHS but a healthier population. Go figure.


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[archie]

No NHS but a healthier population. Go figure.


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OK by that logic we should scrap the NHS and we'll be healthier? Where is Ireland healthier than?

[grunt]

If you look beyond the headline that is inflated by multinationals.

I did look beyond the headline thank you but I misread the first paragraph. Make that 6.7%. Woeful. Ireland should be ashamed.

[Ozyhibby]

OK by that logic we should scrap the NHS and we'll be healthier? Where is Ireland healthier than?

Scotland and England.


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[grunt]

The GDP is inflated my multinationals who largely export profits.
But multinationals are still a valuable source of employment, and those same multinationals use Irish suppliers and workers and spend money in the Irish economy. Do you want Indy Scotland to have no inward foreign investment?

[Ozyhibby]

But multinationals are still a valuable source of employment, and those same multinationals use Irish suppliers and workers and spend money in the Irish economy. Do you want Indy Scotland to have no inward foreign investment?

The pharmaceutical industry that has been built from scratch in the last 20 years in the west of Ireland has been a massive source of both employment and wealth in the area. Real high paying jobs. And on the west coast. Actual levelling up.

https://www.innopharmaeducation.com/news/why-ireland-attracting-the-worlds-top-pharmaceutical-companies-and-how-you-can-benefit

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[grunt]

The pharmaceutical industry that has been built from scratch in the last 20 years in the west of Ireland has been a massive source of both employment and wealth in the area. Real high paying jobs. And on the west coast. Actual levelling up.

https://www.innopharmaeducation.com/news/why-ireland-attracting-the-worlds-top-pharmaceutical-companies-and-how-you-can-benefit

Ahh, but you mustn't count their profits when looking at how well the country is doing. Them's the rules.

[Ozyhibby]

Ahh, but you mustn't count their profits when looking at how well the country is doing. Them's the rules.

It’s a real shame. We could only dream about attracting those jobs to Scotland.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I think she has a couple of mental personal views I don't agree with, other than that I think she's a fairly capable and intelligent person who isn't daft enough to bring her personal views into it and try and make the party go along with them

Even if it helps her get into heaven?

[grunt]

It’s a real shame. We could only dream about attracting those jobs to Scotland.

I spent some of my early career helping to attract foreign companies to come and set up in Scotland, and I spent the last years of my career helping companies leave the UK and set up in Europe. :brickwall

[archie]

But multinationals are still a valuable source of employment, and those same multinationals use Irish suppliers and workers and spend money in the Irish economy. Do you want Indy Scotland to have no inward foreign investment?
As ever it's a mixed blessing. There is certainly local employment and innovation. But it has downsides. The inflation of GDP probably doesn't impact on citizens. But the low tax contribution and inflationary effects most certainly do. This article is a little dated, but sums up the issues from both sides https://www.marketplace.org/2018/06/20/ireland-multinational-companies-blessing-and-curse/

[One Day Soon]

Kate Forbes, you’ve already said (a bit mentally) that we need independence to make devolution work. How about evolution? Do you believe in that or do you think dinosaurs were put on earth as part of a seven day makeover?

[Ozyhibby]

As ever it's a mixed blessing. There is certainly local employment and innovation. But it has downsides. The inflation of GDP probably doesn't impact on citizens. But the low tax contribution and inflationary effects most certainly do. This article is a little dated, but sums up the issues from both sides https://www.marketplace.org/2018/06/20/ireland-multinational-companies-blessing-and-curse/

All the downsides in that article seem to be hypothetical. Meanwhile the high paid jobs and bumper tax receipts are very real and have made Ireland very wealthy.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Kate Forbes, you’ve already said (a bit mentally) that we need independence to make devolution work. How about evolution? Do you believe in that or do you think dinosaurs were put on earth as part of a seven day makeover?

Yousaf, Forbes and Blackford all believe some crazy stuff to me about a man in the sky controlling things. Millions in uk do good luck to them. I don't care if my leader believes in the bible or torah I care about Scottish people in poverty. Which leader will help stop poverty the most and also which will get us out and away from the tories

[One Day Soon]

Yousaf, Forbes and Blackford all believe some crazy stuff to me about a man in the sky controlling things. Millions in uk do good luck to them. I don't care if my leader believes in the bible or torah I care about Scottish people in poverty. Which leader will help stop poverty the most and also which will get us out and away from the tories


It is of course possible to care about both faith and poverty (and a lot more) at the same time. I like my leaders rational. For various reasons, none of these three are.

[archie]

All the downsides in that article seem to be hypothetical. Meanwhile the high paid jobs and bumper tax receipts are very real and have made Ireland very wealthy.


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And yet no NHS and variable social infrastructure. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247

[Ozyhibby]

And yet no NHS and variable social infrastructure. https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/we-re-not-as-rich-as-we-have-been-told-to-think-we-are-1.4476247

No NHS but a better healthcare system.


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[He's here!]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/mhairi-black-says-she-wouldnt-want-to-risk-snp-split-with-kate-forbes-win/ar-AA18pAss

'SNP risk splitting if Forbes wins, says Mhairi Black'

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/mhairi-black-says-she-wouldnt-want-to-risk-snp-split-with-kate-forbes-win/ar-AA18pAss

'SNP risk splitting if Forbes wins, says Mhairi Black'

People who start talking about leaving seldom last long anyway. If it’s not this then it will be something else in the future.


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