Sturgeon Resigns

[James310]

You might not like what I post but I don't make anything up.

'When asked what was Sturgeon's undoing by Sky's Kay Burley, Salmond said: "She leaves a multitude of problems in terms of policy delivery, the dualling of the A9, mounting problems in health and education, looming difficulties for the bottle return scheme and of course the controversy around the self-ID scheme which was a major mis-step because it was legislation you could detect flaws in to say the least. But none of these are things you don't normally cope with, when you come up against a problem you find another way, you clear the decks. Especially as her policy was to have a de facto referendum at the general election. You'd think that would be your moment, you'd either win it or you'd lose it so it seems an unusual moment for stepping down with the independence movement in a cul de sac.

He added: "There are two questions for the future. One is that the movement has been left with no clear strategy for independence. The previously accepted referendum route has been closed and the de facto referendum proposal is now, at best, up in the air. Secondly, she leaves with no obvious successor."

He is not wrong is he. If he is wrong I would like to know where.

[Hibernian Verse]

If I was an opposition leader I'd probably have tweeted when boris went, good riddance to a horrible c### now bring in the police for this corrupt git, to be honest but then I do lack some class

You’ve got my vote!

[WeeRussell]

If I was an opposition leader I'd probably have tweeted when boris went, good riddance to a horrible c### now bring in the police for this corrupt git, to be honest but then I do lack some class

That would have been throughly deserved. Also the reason I removed myself from Twitter a long time ago 😁

[Stairway 2 7]

You’ve got my vote!

Paraphrasing Groucho Marx I wouldn't vote for any party that would accept me in it

[Stairway 2 7]

His gloating is boak inducing. I'd love to leather Neil Oliver. I know it's wrong and I also could be put it in this thread, brexit or covid for that idiot

[Kato]

His gloating is boak inducing. I'd love to leather Neil Oliver. I know it's wrong and I also could be put it in this thread, brexit or covid for that idiotIn years gone by saddos like him mumbled away to themselves while penning letter after letter to The Scotsman, none of which were published.

Cue social media and a highway into the minds of thousands of useful idiots.

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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

The course at Turnberry dates from the late 19th century so long before Trump took over. I've heard the course he built near Aberdeen is superb (controversial as its construction was).

Look see to be honest, Turnberry was decent when I played it. My uncle played the one up in Aberdeen and said it was good, challenging but “not as good as Bo’ness”. Don’t know if he’s just being a grumpy auld ******* there or what but I could 100% design a more challenging and enjoyable course than Turnberry with the money spent on it, wasn’t awful but just nowhere near worth the money it costs for a round there imo


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[Sylar]

His gloating is boak inducing. I'd love to leather Neil Oliver. I know it's wrong and I also could be put it in this thread, brexit or covid for that idiot

I can't stand him - used to know someone who dated the **** for a while before he became 'famous' - I heard plenty of funny, embarrassing tales about Mr Oliver but probably shouldn't share seeing as this is a family forum :greengrin

[Sylar]

Look see to be honest, Turnberry was decent when I played it. My uncle played the one up in Aberdeen and said it was good, challenging but “not as good as Bo’ness”. Don’t know if he’s just being a grumpy auld ******* there or what but I could 100% design a more challenging and enjoyable course than Turnberry with the money spent on it, wasn’t awful but just nowhere near worth the money it costs for a round there imo


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I'm resigned to never playing Turnberry or Balmenie until they change hands - i won't put any money into any interest of that family.

[He's here!]

For anyone that’s interested or isn’t already aware of He’s neither here nor there’s agenda on these types of threads, he’s conveniently missed out the second half of the quotes on that article where Salmond praises (albeit perhaps grudgingly) NS’s communication, her election-winning ability, and brilliant work during the pandemic.

None of it, good or bad, equates to him saying it’s been a waste of time. Which would hardly have been very telling given his attitude towards her in recent years.

I doubt anyone's losing any sleep over the agenda you perceive me to have :-)

As you say, the positive comments Salmond threw in effectively damned her with faint praise.

I can't stand Salmond incidentally, just pointing out that it's not just the media who are (supposedly) undermining her.

[Kato]

As you say, the positive comments Salmond threw in effectively damned her with faint praise.



Why choose to edit them out then, surely it's grist to your mill?

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/heartscotnews/status/1625939724639604736?s=46&t=lwe8Me61zaYc57upA8NJbw

Special people.


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[He's here!]

Random aside but why when night falls do political reporters/editors feel they have to keep broadcasting in the cold, standing outside Holyrood/Westminster? I'm guessing it's to show how 'on the spot' they are but just seems needlessly uncomfortable.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I'm resigned to never playing Turnberry or Balmenie until they change hands - i won't put any money into any interest of that family.

I got gifted a round for my 21st at Turnberry, it’s not somewhere I’d ever be paying to play. It was alright though, nothing special. You’re not missing much.


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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

https://twitter.com/heartscotnews/status/1625939724639604736?s=46&t=lwe8Me61zaYc57upA8NJbw

Special people.


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A full set of teeth between them, different breed


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[RIP]

There's a massive opportunity now to restart the Scottish Independence Convention.

The independence campaign should be separate from the Scottish Government and run by a personality rather than a politician.

[He's here!]

Why choose to edit them out then, surely it's grist to your mill?

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Seemed superfluous when editing is about separating the wheat from the chaff. Mind you there's a saying that editors then print the chaff...

[Curried]

Nicola Sturgeon’s resignation will have no effect on the fundamentals driving Scottish Independence. I suspect the unionists that are currently creaming themselves over her decision to step down as FM, are going to be very disappointed when they find support for independence is sustained over the next couple of years. If these unionists believe that scots will now rush to vote for Sir Keir’s brexit-supporting red-tory party, they are sadly deluded. Westminster governance is a standing joke, and its arrogance and distain for Scotland is increasingly recognised in younger voters. This demographic factor will ensure that independence most certainly happens at some point in the future. It’s not a question of if, but when.

[Ozyhibby]

There's a massive opportunity now to restart the Scottish Independence Convention.

The campaign should be separate from the Scottish Government and run by a personality rather than a politician.

That’s just silly. It’s a political issue.


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[OldEast]

That’s just silly. It’s a political issue.


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Which, if separated from day to day governance and run by politicians, celebs, lawyers etc could gain far more traction than being in the sole possession of one political party. It makes perfect sense.

[Ozyhibby]

Which, if separated from day to day governance and run by politicians, celebs, lawyers etc could gain far more traction than being in the sole possession of one political party. It makes perfect sense.

That can happen now if anyone wants to do it.


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[RIP]

That can happen now if anyone wants to do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Convention

The basic structure is already in place. Under Sturgeon, the Nats' participation was half-hearted, regarding the Indy campaign as 'Ma Ba'.

That short-sightedness blithely ignored the success of the 2012-2014 umbrella YES campaign which saw support for independence rise sharply from 28% to 45% in two years by virtue of three quarters of a million non-nationalists turning to Yes.

If the Indy2 campaign is to be successful, it needs to represent the voice of the majority of Scottish society.

[OldEast]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Convention

The basic structure is already in place. Under Sturgeon, the Nats' participation was half-hearted, regarding the Indy campaign as 'Ma Ba'.

That short-sightedness blithely ignored the success of the 2012-2014 umbrella YES campaign which saw support for independence rise sharply from 28% to 45% in two years by virtue of three quarters of a million non-nationalists turning to Yes.

If the Indy2 campaign is to be successful, it needs to represent the voice of the majority of Scottish society.

Totally agree. Nobody can deny the campaign has stalled to put it kindly.

[Don Giovanni]

I doubt anyone's losing any sleep over the agenda you perceive me to have :-)

As you say, the positive comments Salmond threw in effectively damned her with faint praise.

I can't stand Salmond incidentally, just pointing out that it's not just the media who are (supposedly) undermining her.

Salmond has a massive axe to grind. It's not exactly an objective assessment of Sturgeon's time as FM, is it?

[Don Giovanni]

Totally agree. Nobody can deny the campaign has stalled to put it kindly.

It's been neutered by the establishment (Westminster and the Courts).

Legal routes to an independence referendum have been closed off and that leaves the SNP with some tough choices about how to proceed.

[147lothian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Convention

The basic structure is already in place. Under Sturgeon, the Nats' participation was half-hearted, regarding the Indy campaign as 'Ma Ba'.

That short-sightedness blithely ignored the success of the 2012-2014 umbrella YES campaign which saw support for independence rise sharply from 28% to 45% in two years by virtue of three quarters of a million non-nationalists turning to Yes.

If the Indy2 campaign is to be successful, it needs to represent the voice of the majority of Scottish society.

Agreed under Sturgeon everything was controlled by her and her husband, I used to think of Alex Salmon as a bit of a dry *****, but he was a statesman who had the snp of the right course to independence, he had the YES campaign as an umbrella group and tried to reach out to as many people as possible. In fact he did this with every issue. He made sure that the snp in Hollyrood only got on with the business of government.

It must really irk him that what took so long to build up by building bridges with people, has been seriously set back, in a poll in the Daily Record on was Nicola Sturgeon right to resign 74% said yes, 24% said no.

[degenerated]

Agreed under Sturgeon everything was controlled by her and her husband, I used to think of Alex Salmon as a bit of a dry *****, but he was a statesman who had the snp of the right course to independence, he had the YES campaign as an umbrella group and tried to reach out to as many people as possible. In fact he did this with every issue. He made sure that the snp in Hollyrood only got on with the business of government.

It must really irk him that what took so long to build up by building bridges with people, has been seriously set back, in a poll in the Daily Record on was Nicola Sturgeon right to resign 74% said yes, 24% said no.A poll in the daily record, what did you expect from such a pro union newspaper. It's basically the Scottish labour branch office fanzine.

[Hibbyradge]

Which, if separated from day to day governance and run by politicians, celebs, lawyers etc could gain far more traction than being in the sole possession of one political party. It makes perfect sense.

I thought Wings over Scotland had that role.

I'm joking, but the direction of the independence movement and campaign has to be controlled by the SNP, imo.

[Ozyhibby]

A poll in the daily record, what did you expect from such a pro union newspaper. It's basically the Scottish labour branch office fanzine.

Besides, I think she was right to resign and I think she did a great job.


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[OldEast]

I thought Wings over Scotland had that role.

I'm joking, but the direction of the independence movement and campaign has to be controlled by the SNP, imo.

That hasn't really worked so far has it. The Independence campaign exclusively and inextricably linked to SNP maybe needs talked about. Of course they will be the party who deliver it but a broader campaign needs to be introduced to win the hearts and minds of the Scottish people. Huns excluded of course!😀

[Ozyhibby]

That hasn't really worked so far has it. The Independence campaign exclusively and inextricably linked to SNP maybe needs talked about. Of course they will be the party who deliver it but a broader campaign needs to be introduced to win the hearts and minds of the Scottish people. Huns excluded of course![emoji3]

Anyone is free to start a broader campaign anytime they like?


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[147lothian]

A poll in the daily record, what did you expect from such a pro union newspaper. It's basically the Scottish labour branch office fanzine.

The Daily Record poll that has 74% saying Nicola Sturgeon was right to resign and 24% saying she was not, is probably the best indication of what ordinary working class people think of Nicola Sturgeon in recent times, the Labour Party or for that matter the Conservatives are not popular with working class Scottish people, so the question that needs to be answered is why did Nicola Sturgeon's popularity drop so dramatically with ordinary working class Scottish people?

[Ozyhibby]

The Daily Record poll that has 74% saying Nicola Sturgeon was right to resign and 24% saying she was not, is probably the best indication of what ordinary working class people think of Nicola Sturgeon in recent times, the Labour Party or for that matter the Conservatives are not popular with working class Scottish people, so the question that needs to be answered is why did Nicola Sturgeon's popularity drop so dramatically with ordinary working class Scottish people?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230216/c5daf0d4ea6eaab4763bfa2a38f01296.jpg
It didn’t.


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[OldEast]

Anyone is free to start a broader campaign anytime they like?


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Yes. Which is my point.

[Crunchie]

Besides, I think she was right to resign and I think she did a great job.


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What do you think is her legacy? Swinney cites minimum unit alcohol pricing, expansion of early measures to tackle domestic violence, delivery of The Promise and leadership through Covid, to name but a few.

That to me after 8 years is a damning statement and anything but a great job.

Education, NHS and policing have went south since she was appointed leader, to name but a few.

[Don Giovanni]

The Daily Record poll that has 74% saying Nicola Sturgeon was right to resign and 24% saying she was not, is probably the best indication of what ordinary working class people think of Nicola Sturgeon in recent times, the Labour Party or for that matter the Conservatives are not popular with working class Scottish people, so the question that needs to be answered is why did Nicola Sturgeon's popularity drop so dramatically with ordinary working class Scottish people?

Aye, the Daily Record, well renowned for it's impartiality, is the best poll data available :faf:

[Ozyhibby]

What do you think is her legacy? Swinney cites minimum unit alcohol pricing, expansion of early measures to tackle domestic violence, delivery of The Promise and leadership through Covid, to name but a few.

That to me after 8 years is a damning statement and anything but a great job.

Education, NHS and policing have went south since she was appointed leader, to name but a few.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

I would say this is a pretty strong legacy.


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[Crunchie]

Check out the video of the day on yesterdays EEN, some nice comments but the Welsh guys comments are a scream, and as he says he has no axe to grind.

[147lothian]

Aye, the Daily Record, well renowned for it's impartiality, is the best poll data available :faf:

its not a poll conducted by the Daily Record, its the readers who vote, you can find it on-line

[Santa Cruz]

What do you think is her legacy? Swinney cites minimum unit alcohol pricing, expansion of early measures to tackle domestic violence, delivery of The Promise and leadership through Covid, to name but a few.

That to me after 8 years is a damning statement and anything but a great job.

Education, NHS and policing have went south since she was appointed leader, to name but a few.

I'm not sure they have delivered on The Promise.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/taxpayer-funded-firm-set-up-29193199

[Stairway 2 7]

People won't like the source but they say it's Sturgeons legacy in 6 graphs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-in-six-graphs/

[Don Giovanni]

its not a poll conducted by the Daily Record, its the readers who vote, you can find it on-line

The Daily Record readership is a small demographic.

I wouldn't put much stock in their readership vote.

There are better sources available.

[degenerated]

Aye, the Daily Record, well renowned for it's impartiality, is the best poll data available :faf:We asked a hundred rangers supporters....... :greengrin

[ElginHibbie]

its not a poll conducted by the Daily Record, its the readers who vote, you can find it on-line

You mean the one their website that you need to give them your email to vote on? Yeah, I ain't gonna count that as being reflective of the general public, worse than a Twitter poll

[Crunchie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

I would say this is a pretty strong legacy.


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You'll no doubt post another couple of dozen links today bestowing praise on your idol, the fact of the matter is her legacy will be the longest serving FM and doing nothing of note with it.

Swinney's statement says it all.

[Crunchie]

I'm not sure they have delivered on The Promise.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/taxpayer-funded-firm-set-up-29193199
I personally don't think she's delivered on anything of note, and Swinney himself sums that up.

[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230216/c5daf0d4ea6eaab4763bfa2a38f01296.jpg
It didn’t.


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That's a totally different question.

[Santa Cruz]

I personally don't think she's delivered on anything of note, and Swinney himself sums that up.

Bit confused, I never heard Swinney, you posted he cited the delivery of The Promise as a success?

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

I would say this is a pretty strong legacy.


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A great example of how devolution should work. Something you wish to end.

[Crunchie]

Bit confused, I never heard Swinney, you posted he cited the delivery of The Promise as a success?
Exactly, I wouldn't call it an achievement. No mention of education, NHS or anything she was actually elected to achieve.

[147lothian]

The Daily Record readership is a small demographic.

I wouldn't put much stock in their readership vote.

There are better sources available.

The Daily Record is the best selling Scottish tabloid, not that I read it I prefer the Evening News and the Herald. But as a tabloid it's readers are working class people mainly from deprived parts of Glasgow and other places not doing well. You might disregard their readers but by doing this you are disregarding the views of working class people.

The point is that for a Party to be successful it has to broadly win the argument and have the majority of people on board. So in this sense the poll carried out is an indication of what the people in the housing schemes think of the first minister in recent times 74% saying she was right to resign and 24% she was not, shows she had lost a lot of grass roots support.

[Zambernardi1875]

There's a massive opportunity now to restart the Scottish Independence Convention.

The independence campaign should be separate from the Scottish Government and run by a personality rather than a politician.

Actually think taking the independence campaign away from politics to a certain extent is a good idea and pushed more by well respected celebrities and business people etc.

[Zambernardi1875]

The Daily Record is the best selling Scottish tabloid, not that I read it I prefer the Evening News and the Herald. But as a tabloid it's readers are working class people mainly from deprived parts of Glasgow and other places not doing well. You might disregard their readers but by doing this you are disregarding the views of working class people.

The point is that for a Party to be successful it has to broadly win the argument and have the majority of people on board. So in this sense the poll carried out is an indication of what the people in the housing schemes think of the first minister in recent times 74% saying she was right to resign and 24% she was not, shows she had lost a lot of grass roots support.

You might as well publish a poll from the viz.

[Kato]

You might as well publish a poll from the viz.Exactly. Totally unscientific way of looking at Scottish demographics.

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[grunt]

The Daily Record is the best selling Scottish tabloid, not that I read it I prefer the Evening News and the Herald. But as a tabloid it's readers are working class people mainly from deprived parts of Glasgow and other places not doing well. You might disregard their readers but by doing this you are disregarding the views of working class people.
The Record is read by Rangers supporting unionists. What do you expect them to say about NS?

[James310]

Actually think taking the independence campaign away from politics to a certain extent is a good idea and pushed more by well respected celebrities and business people etc.

Who would you class as a well respected celebrity that would front the campaign for Independence? And well respected by who?

[Sylar]

The Record is read by Rangers supporting unionists. What do you expect them to say about NS?

Really? Most Rangers fans I know refer to it as the Daily Rebel.

[Kato]

The Record is read by Rangers supporting unionists. What do you expect them to say about NS?Doesn't matter how many hard copies of the Daily Record or who to.

It's an online poll where you had to give your email address. That discounts quite a few people demographically.

To say its a snapshot of working class feelings is well wide of the mark.

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[James310]

The Record is read by Rangers supporting unionists. What do you expect them to say about NS?

I always thought it was pro Indy, the political editor had a picture of himself and Nicola Sturgeon as his Twitter profile picture for a long time. Not now of course. I am sure like the Sun they urged voters to vote SNP but I may be wrong.

[Ozyhibby]

People won't like the source but they say it's Sturgeons legacy in 6 graphs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeons-legacy-in-six-graphs/

Very selective. And no comparator countries?


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[grunt]

Maybe I'm wrong and the Daily Record is really the tabloid stablemate of the National.
As others have pointed out, an online poll that anyone can join is not going to be representative of anything other than those who voted.

[grunt]

“What does it really matter to us who the leader of Scotland is?”

Who is this "us" he's talking about?

[G15 Hibs]

You might as well publish a poll from the viz.

Who is the best Sturgeon?

1) Nicola
2) This fish
3) That bloke out of Holby City

[Kato]

Who is this "us" he's talking about?Tory affiliated BBC yakkers?

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[The Harp Awakes]

Unionists aka Rangers fans dancing in George Square over Nicola's resignation I see.

Looks like they think the SNP and independence is dead. Just like they did after the 2014 referendum. Will they ever learn?

[G15 Hibs]

Maybe I'm wrong and the Daily Record is really the tabloid stablemate of the National.
As others have pointed out, an online poll that anyone can join is not going to be representative of anything other than those who voted.

The National is published by Newsquest, who also have The Herald and the Glasgow Evening Times. The Daily Record is part of Reach, which was formerly called the Mirror Group.

[Crunchie]

Unionists aka Rangers fans dancing in George Square over Nicola's resignation I see.

Looks like they think the SNP and independence is dead. Just like they did after the 2014 referendum. Will they ever learn?
Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.

[hibby rae]

Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.

Do you know what the political definition of a generation is? Seven years, as outlined in the Good Friday Agreement.

[hibby rae]

Unionists aka Rangers fans dancing in George Square over Nicola's resignation I see.

Looks like they think the SNP and independence is dead. Just like they did after the 2014 referendum. Will they ever learn?

George Robertson said devolution would kill the SNP.

[Crunchie]

Do you know what the political definition of a generation is? Seven years, as outlined in the Good Friday Agreement.
I know it has nothing to do with TGFA.

[Kato]

I know it has nothing to do with TGFA.So its a good enough definition for Ireland but not for Scotland?

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[Kato]

Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.


...and she's dragged England down along with it. What a scoundrel.


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[James310]

So its a good enough definition for Ireland but not for Scotland?

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You don't think there are maybe special circumstances for Northern Ireland? Like the troubles and thousands of deaths?

[Ozyhibby]

Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.

Tories accusing others of running Scotland into the ground.[emoji849][emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

So its a good enough definition for Ireland but not for Scotland?

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There are lots of things good enough for that part of the union but not Scotland.


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[The Harp Awakes]

Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.

If it wasn't for Brexit, it might have been.

Brexit happened though and the SNP were elected overwhelmingly on an indyref2 mandate. An average of the last half dozen opinion polls on independence show a majority in favour, so if you think independence is dead, it's clearly wishful thinking on your part.

As for running the country into the ground, that without doubt is the fault of the shambolic and corrupt Westminster Government who have wrecked the UK economy singlehandedly.

[Kato]

You don't think there are maybe special circumstances for Northern Ireland? Like the troubles and thousands of deaths?So how does the seven years between votes interpretation of "a generation" help with that?

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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-64648879?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=63ee014a04caa552cb12eb37%26Sturgeon%20 successor%20will%20have%20very%20immediate%20probl ems%20to%20deal%20with%20-%20Holyrood%20editor%262023-02-16T10%3A30%3A42.054Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:26125578-699a-4f43-99ea-98f4fc392466&pinned_post_asset_id=63ee014a04caa552cb12eb37&pinned_post_type=share

Legal action v UK govt re gender bill to be 'quietly dropped'? Smart move if true. It became, as J K Rowling predicted, Sturgeon's poll tax.

[hibby rae]

You don't think there are maybe special circumstances for Northern Ireland? Like the troubles and thousands of deaths?

No, not in this context as the text of that particular part of the agreement refers to self-determination referendums. Which should be a universal right no?

[Bristolhibby]

The Daily Record is the best selling Scottish tabloid, not that I read it I prefer the Evening News and the Herald. But as a tabloid it's readers are working class people mainly from deprived parts of Glasgow and other places not doing well. You might disregard their readers but by doing this you are disregarding the views of working class people.

The point is that for a Party to be successful it has to broadly win the argument and have the majority of people on board. So in this sense the poll carried out is an indication of what the people in the housing schemes think of the first minister in recent times 74% saying she was right to resign and 24% she was not, shows she had lost a lot of grass roots support.

You then have to look to see if it’s chicken or egg.

Is the record just reporting an echo of what it has already fed to said working class Glaswegians?

Are they reporting the opinion or making the opinion?

J

[hibby rae]

I know it has nothing to do with TGFA.

It sets a precedent as it is what the UK government defines it as, so yes it does.

[Bristolhibby]

You don't think there are maybe special circumstances for Northern Ireland? Like the troubles and thousands of deaths?

So war and bombs gives you special dispensation. Doing things peacefully means you have to wait?

Got it.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-64648879?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=63ee014a04caa552cb12eb37%26Sturgeon%20 successor%20will%20have%20very%20immediate%20probl ems%20to%20deal%20with%20-%20Holyrood%20editor%262023-02-16T10%3A30%3A42.054Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:26125578-699a-4f43-99ea-98f4fc392466&pinned_post_asset_id=63ee014a04caa552cb12eb37&pinned_post_type=share

Legal action v UK govt re gender bill to be 'quietly dropped'? Smart move if true. It became, as J K Rowling predicted, Sturgeon's poll tax.

I hope so. Doesn’t move votes and is more bother than it was worth. Leave it as blocked by UK govt.


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[allmodcons]

I know some posters really don't like the majority of UK media outlets so this maybe lends a bit of 'through the eyes of others'.

If you're not a subscriber to either paper then you should still get a free view, unless you've already reached your limit for the week or month.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/02/15/world/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-resigns

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/15/scotland-nicola-sturgeon-resigns/

Both papers have their own offices in the UK, London obviously, but still six journalists in total working on the one story.

A sad state of affairs when we have to start reading the NY Times to get a balanced article :wink:

Our media here in the UK is an absolute joke these days. Zero balance almost anywhere including most of the so called 'broadsheets'. A complete turn off.

I'd say the vast majority of SNP voters would consider Nicola Sturgeon to have been a very good leader and the vast majority of non SNP voters a formidable opponent.

In footballing terms, she is the kind of player opposition fans love to hate but if, truth be told, would love to have on their team.

[Ozyhibby]

So war and bombs gives you special dispensation. Doing things peacefully means you have to wait?

Got it.

J

It’s the way they want to push things. All peaceful democratic routes to Indy have now been closed off. Only a matter of time before someone turns to violence.


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[James310]

So how does the seven years between votes interpretation of "a generation" help with that?

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As I understand it the GFA forbids a referendum 7 years after the prior one, nowhere does it say they have one every 7 years.

If the SNP wanted similar type of arrangements they should have asked for it in the Edinburgh Agreement, but they never.

It's yet another backwards looking argument for a referendum though. It's time I think the SNP started looking forwards. It's clear a new strategy is needed.

[Kato]

As I understand it the GFA forbids a referendum 7 years after the prior one, nowhere does it say they have one every 7 years.

If the SNP wanted similar type of arrangements they should have asked for it in the Edinburgh Agreement, but they never.

It's yet another backwards looking argument for a referendum though. It's time I think the SNP started looking forwards. It's clear a new strategy is needed.

How does it help given the violent extremes in Irelands history is what I asked..

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[James310]

So war and bombs gives you special dispensation. Doing things peacefully means you have to wait?

Got it.

J

No, if you can't see how Northern Ireland is different to Scotland I can't help you anymore.

[degenerated]

There are lots of things good enough for that part of the union but not Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkToo wee, poor and stupid for 7 year generations

[hibby rae]

As I understand it the GFA forbids a referendum 7 years after the prior one, nowhere does it say they have one every 7 years.

If the SNP wanted similar type of arrangements they should have asked for it in the Edinburgh Agreement, but they never.

It's yet another backwards looking argument for a referendum though. It's time I think the SNP started looking forwards. It's clear a new strategy is needed.

It puts to bed any 'once in a generation' arguments against a referendum, which is one of the main arguments of the Unionist side, so of course it's valid to mention that in reply.

No one is saying they would have one, they have the right to have one. Which is different, and the parties in power were voted in on a mandate to have one, and a generation has passed.

The Smith Commission, which every party signed up to, also recognised the right to hold one at the time of choosing of the Scottish people.

[He's here!]

I hope so. Doesn’t move votes and is more bother than it was worth. Leave it as blocked by UK govt.


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Harvie's saying if that happened they'd have to re-examine their coalition with the SNP...so arguably worth the SG backing down to remove his poisonous presence from a position of influence.

[Ozyhibby]

Too wee, poor and stupid for 7 year generations

Also not allowed to be part of the CU or SM even though we asked for it. Second class citizens.


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[James310]

It puts to bed any 'once in a generation' arguments against a referendum, which is one of the main arguments of the Unionist side, so of course it's valid to mention that in reply.

No one is saying they would have one, they have the right to have one. Which is different, and the parties in power were voted in on a mandate to have one, and a generation has passed.

The Smith Commission, which every party signed up to, also recognised the right to hold one at the time of choosing of the Scottish people.

We will just need to agree to disagree, Scotland is not Northern Ireland and does not have the history of Northern Ireland. The GFA was in response to what was happening there, nowhere else.

[grunt]

Independence was dead after the referendum, at least for a generation. The SNP and Sturgeon should have taken note and got on with running the country instead of running it into the ground.Why are you so scared of Scottish independence?

[James310]

Why are you so scared of Scottish independence?

Why were Remainers so scared of Brexit?

They were proved right to be scared.

[Kato]

We will just need to agree to disagree, Scotland is not Northern Ireland and does not have the history of Northern Ireland. The GFA was in response to what was happening there, nowhere else.Yes, it doesn't have the same history.

So what in you mind makes it different?

Why would violent Northern Ireland be allowed a vote every 7 years as opposed to peaceful Scotland.



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[grunt]

We will just need to agree to disagree, Scotland is not Northern Ireland and does not have the history of Northern Ireland. The GFA was in response to what was happening there, nowhere else.But the UK Govt which agreed the GFA (and included the right to referendum) is the same UK Govt which won't allow Scotland another referendum. So how is it right for the same UK Govt to treat us differently? And please don't say, "special NI circumstances" without explaining why that should lead to them treating Scotland differently.

[Berwickhibby]

🍿 🍿 this thread has been amazing to read 🍿 some of the comments really made me chuckle

[grunt]

Why were Remainers so scared of Brexit? They were proved right to be scared.Do you REALLY think that independence is the same as Brexit? Really???

[grunt]

🍿 🍿 this thread has been amazing to read 🍿 some of the comments really made me chuckleOut of interest, do you read the Daily Record?

[Berwickhibby]

Out of interest, do you read the Daily Record?

No….I think is as bad as the Sun….utter drivel

[Stairway 2 7]

Same arguments on repeat like groundhog day, but nothing actually changes including the polls, brutal.

[James310]

Same arguments on repeat like groundhog day, but nothing actually changes including the polls, brutal.

That's what I meant by my backwards looking arguments comment. As someone who doesn't support Indy I am pretty happy the main arguments are the same arguments that have made zero difference, even moved Indy backwards. Sure let's argue about Brexit, GFA and once in a generation, mandates at elections years ago etc, suits only one side.

[Smartie]

That's what I meant by my backwards looking arguments comment. As someone who doesn't support Indy I am pretty happy the main arguments are the same arguments that have made zero difference, even moved Indy backwards. Sure let's argue about Brexit, GFA and once in a generation, mandates at elections years ago etc, suits only one side.

Moving on from that - are you at all concerned that this change might bring about different debate, new arguments or strategies that you might find harder to counter?

I think you have a fair point here, and that we have reached a stalemate that suits the status quo.

It has started to feel very Groundhog Day and that wasn't going to change without some pretty major other change happening, Sturgeon's departure possibly being the stimulus.

[hibby rae]

We will just need to agree to disagree, Scotland is not Northern Ireland and does not have the history of Northern Ireland. The GFA was in response to what was happening there, nowhere else.

But it sets a legal precedent when the UK agreed to that definition of a generation. Definitions don't change to suit an argument.

Scotland and Northern Ireland having different recent histories is irrelevant in that context.

[hibby rae]

That's what I meant by my backwards looking arguments comment. As someone who doesn't support Indy I am pretty happy the main arguments are the same arguments that have made zero difference, even moved Indy backwards. Sure let's argue about Brexit, GFA and once in a generation, mandates at elections years ago etc, suits only one side.

2021 Scottish Parliamentary elections = 'Years ago"

[James310]

2021 Scottish Parliamentary elections = 'Years ago"

It will become years ago in a few years when it's still being used as an argument.

[James310]

Moving on from that - are you at all concerned that this change might bring about different debate, new arguments or strategies that you might find harder to counter?

I think you have a fair point here, and that we have reached a stalemate that suits the status quo.

It has started to feel very Groundhog Day and that wasn't going to change without some pretty major other change happening, Sturgeon's departure possibly being the stimulus.

Good question and yes of course I am worried. If someone comes in and does what Nicola Sturgeon failed to do then yes it could move the polls....here is the but...I see none of the current names being quoted as doing that. They are basically a poorer version of Nicola Sturgeon.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-deserves-credit-for-the-downfall-of-nicola-sturgeon/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

'Sunak deserves credit for the downfall of Sturgeon'

Decent article if you read beyond the headline.

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-deserves-credit-for-the-downfall-of-nicola-sturgeon/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

'Sunak deserves credit for the downfall of Sturgeon'

Decent article if you read beyond the headline.

Good lord, man. I can appreciate you're giddy with yesterday's news but you maybe need a wee lie down!

[He's here!]

https://i0.wp.com/wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/nextsnp.jpg?resize=460%2C314&ssl=1

The resounding 'win' for don't know begs the question why Sturgeon made no attempt to nurture an obvious successor as Salmond did.

[Smartie]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-deserves-credit-for-the-downfall-of-nicola-sturgeon/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230216%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_63f8738a7efd55e3eb064051bbcd95f4

'Sunak deserves credit for the downfall of Sturgeon'

Decent article if you read beyond the headline.

From what I could see it was utter pish right up to the paywall.

[Stevie Reid]

From what I could see it was utter pish right up to the paywall.

Aye, read beyond the headline and almost immediately got to a Braveheart reference.

Patrick O'Flynn is an ********.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

When the right wing billionaire owned tabloids are calling her 8 year tenure an utter failure, you know she was something outstanding.

[Crunchie]

Tories accusing others of running Scotland into the ground.[emoji849][emoji23]


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The SNP have had plenty of time in power to have made significant improvements in education and the NHS in particular, they have done neither. Sturgeon's time at the helm in particular has been an unmitigated failure.

I vote tory at the moment that might well change if the new leader or labour can get their act together.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The SNP have had plenty of time in power to have made significant improvements in education and the NHS in particular, they have done neither. Sturgeon's time at the helm in particular has been an unmitigated failure.

I vote tory at the moment that might well change if the new leader or labour can get their act together.

Plenty of time in power, with a 2008 world wide banking crash and 12+ years of an economic clown show by a Government holding the purse strings. There were never going to be significant improvements in education or the NHS in Scotland regardless of who the first minister of Scotland was. Just look at the mess of the UK as a whole.

Interesting that you vote tory while suggesting that you may vote for a different party should they get their act together. When did the tories ever have their act together?

[Hibrandenburg]

The SNP have had plenty of time in power to have made significant improvements in education and the NHS in particular, they have done neither.

I vote tory at the moment.


:faf:

[Berwickhibby]

Didn't Sturgeon scream for an election when Bozo 🤡 Quit let's see if the SNP have an election or are they hypocrites.

Time will tell

[Crunchie]

Didn't Sturgeon scream for an election when Bozo 🤡 Quit let's see if the SNP have an election or are they hypocrites.

Time will tell
But, but , but :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

But, but , but :greengrin

But but but ….Essss Eeennnn Ppeeeeee :greengrin :greengrin …that’s what I got this morning lol 😂

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't Sturgeon scream for an election when Bozo [emoji1782] Quit let's see if the SNP have an election or are they hypocrites.

Time will tell

I’m happy to have another election. New leader, new mandate.


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[Crunchie]

But but but ….Essss Eeennnn Ppeeeeee :greengrin :greengrin …that’s what I got this morning lol 😂

:greengrin

[grunt]

As someone who doesn't support Indy I am pretty happy the main arguments are the same arguments that have made zero difference, even moved Indy backwards.
Do you want to continue to be governed by this criminal thieving corrupt English Tory party?

[grunt]

Didn't Sturgeon scream for an election when Bozo 🤡 Quit let's see if the SNP have an election or are they hypocrites. Time will tell
Surely you know the answer to this by now?

[grunt]

When the right wing billionaire owned tabloids are calling her 8 year tenure an utter failure, you know she was something outstanding.
From the Independent (!)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpGdCmrWcAQ_i6H?format=jpg&name=medium

[grunt]

I vote tory at the moment that might well change if the new leader or labour can get their act together.
So you vote Tory and you watch GB News?

[James310]

Do you want to continue to be governed by this criminal thieving corrupt English Tory party?

Well living in Scotland I am governed in the main by the Scottish Government, they have responsibility for health, education, transport etc. On a UK basis I am of course looking forward to a Labour victory at the next GE with them taking lots of seats in Scotland as well.

[Ozyhibby]

From the Independent (!)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpGdCmrWcAQ_i6H?format=jpg&name=medium

How they see Scotland.


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[grunt]

Decent article if you read beyond the headline.Patrick O'Flynn writing a decent article is an oxymoron.

[grunt]

Well living in Scotland I am governed in the main by the Scottish Government, they have responsibility for health, education, transport etc. On a UK basis I am of course looking forward to a Labour victory at the next GE with them taking lots of seats in Scotland as well.
Remind me how many Scottish WM seats Labour have at the moment? :greengrin

Labour in Scotland is a busted flush. And they'd be the same in the rest of the UK if there was anything approaching a decent political party to be found.

[Crunchie]

How they see Scotland.


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That's as funny a statement as the cartoon itself. :faf:

[Bostonhibby]

:faf:Come on now, it's not a laughing matter, the Nasty Party needed around 13 years, assorted leaders, often with no personal electoral mandate and a seemingly endless flow of corruption and scandals to get the UK to where we are today.

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[WhileTheChief..]

For anyone that’s interested or isn’t already aware of He’s neither here nor there’s agenda on these types of threads, he’s conveniently missed out the second half of the quotes on that article where Salmond praises (albeit perhaps grudgingly) NS’s communication, her election-winning ability, and brilliant work during the pandemic.

None of it, good or bad, equates to him saying it’s been a waste of time. Which would hardly have been very telling given his attitude towards her in recent years.

If anyone wants to just watch it and make their own mind up...


https://youtu.be/_3wSF2SuDs0

[Kato]

That's as funny a statement as the cartoon itself. :faf:Neither is funny.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Come on now, it's not a laughing matter, the Nasty Party needed around 13 years, assorted leaders, often with no personal electoral mandate and a seemingly endless flow of corruption and scandals to get the UK to where we are today.

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I seriously had tears of laughter at the thought of someone voting Tory because of SNP mismanagement :faf: Brilliant piece of trolling.

[James310]

Remind me how many Scottish WM seats Labour have at the moment? :greengrin

Labour in Scotland is a busted flush. And they'd be the same in the rest of the UK if there was anything approaching a decent political party to be found.

Let's see after the next General Election, happy to have a small charity wager they will take a number of seats off the SNP, even more so now Nicola Sturgeon has gone.

[Stairway 2 7]

So you vote Tory and you watch GB News?

25% of Scots voted Tory at the last GE, they are massively under represented on this board

[Hibrandenburg]

25% of Scots voted Tory at the last GE, they are massively under represented on this board

I'll bet they're massively over represented on Follow Follow.

[Rumble de Thump]

25% of Scots voted Tory at the last GE, they are massively under represented on this board

Most would be on Follow Follow.

[Kato]

I'll bet they're massively over represented on Follow Follow.Swings and roundabouts, if roundabouts are mainly religious bigots with kneejerk attitudes that come from the 16th century that is.

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[Crunchie]

Most would be on Follow Follow.
Most wouldn't even know what follow follow is, and that'll be a fact.

[Stairway 2 7]

I've not been on in a long time but I think kickback seemed more right wing, well obviously not all. Tories are also on average older so probably less likely to use message boards

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm not sure they have delivered on The Promise.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/taxpayer-funded-firm-set-up-29193199

They most certainly have not delivered on The Promise. I’m astonished Swinney would even countenance claiming they had. Is he claiming they have delivered on the ‘named person’ as well?

[Kato]

So you vote Tory and you watch GB News?GBNews editorial on Sturgeon's resignation. Starring - James Nicholas Nicholas Davidson.

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1626000961725509633?t=19kuG8HhGG5G7J12X1CbHQ&s=09

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[Crunchie]

I've not been on in a long time but I think kickback seemed more right wing, well obviously not all. Tories are also on average older so probably less likely to use message boards
Only an idiot would disagree with that, they are trolling to coin a phrase of theirs and employing their usual tactic. The thread is about Sturgeon resigning, they want to make it about something else.

[Crunchie]

They most certainly have not delivered on The Promise. I’m astonished Swinney would even countenance claiming they had. Is he claiming they have delivered on the ‘named person’ as well?
He mentioned The Promise, single unit pricing on alcohol, the expansion of early learning measures to tackle domestic violence and her handling of covid as her achievements.

[marinello59]

Most would be on Follow Follow.

I have a strong dislike of the Tory Party and it’s policies. (Understatement. :greengrin). However to suggest that most of their supporters are to be found on that rancid cesspit is something that I doubt would stand up to scrutiny.
The repeated attempts by some to split Scottish politics on sectarian lines is depressing to say the least. Sturgeon’s words yesterday about us all having a responsibility when it comes to the tenor and tone of political discussion in Scotland were wise ones.

[WeeRussell]

If anyone wants to just watch it and make their own mind up...


https://youtu.be/_3wSF2SuDs0

Thanks for your help 👍 - link not working for me but I’ll assume it’s the same thing as was discussed.

And yes, naturally people can make their own minds up. Just like we all make our own minds up watching the football etc, but still share those opinions on here.

I just found HH was being typically selective and imaginative in his quoting was all.

[Hibrandenburg]

I have a strong dislike of the Tory Party and it’s policies. (Understatement. :greengrin). However to suggest that most of their supporters are to be found on that rancid cesspit is something that I doubt would stand up to scrutiny.
The repeated attempts by some to split Scottish politics on sectarian lines is depressing to say the least. Sturgeon’s words yesterday about us all having a responsibility when it comes to the tenor and tone of political discussion in Scotland were wise ones.

Aye, because Rangers aren't Sectarian. :greengrin

[Kato]

Well living in Scotland I am governed in the main by the Scottish Government, they have responsibility for health, education, transport etc. On a UK basis I am of course looking forward to a Labour victory at the next GE with them taking lots of seats in Scotland as well.

What impact did the UK Govt have on your daily bills?

What impact did they have on the expenditure of hospitals and schools in Scotland?

What impact did the SNP have on labour shortages in Scottish hospitals and schools?

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[Mibbes Aye]

He mentioned The Promise, single unit pricing on alcohol, the expansion of early learning measures to tackle domestic violence and her handling of covid as her achievements.

If I was astonished at him claiming they had delivered The Promise then I am flabbergasted at him citing early learning.

The number of ELC teachers has fallen by more than half since 2010. The capacity to gear up to 1140 was predominantly met through increasing the size of in-house local authority services. This means primary heads and deputies having to take on line management responsibilities for ELC co-ordinators, on top of their existing workload.

ELC staff voted with their feet, I think research shows they are the most likely cohort of care workers to move primarily on the basis of Ts+Cs. Can’t blame them given they are one of the lowest-paid cohorts. This removed significant numbers of staff from smaller, independent sector providers who were able to offer more personalised approaches. Ultimately parental choice has suffered and there is general acknowledgement in the sector that 2-3s (and their parents) have had a raw deal compared to 3-5s because of a lack of forethought around the sector’s capacity to deliver.

Yet again it is aspiration being painted as achievement. With the building blocks for achievement either missing or ignored.

[James310]

What impact did the UK Govt have on your daily bills?

What impact did they have on the expenditure of hospitals and schools in Scotland?

What impact did the SNP have on labour shortages in Scottish hospitals and schools?

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If the SNP can blame not building a road on the war in Ukraine I reckon world energy prices rising can be blamed on the war as well.

It's up to the SNP how they spend the budget, we have the highest public spending in the UK. The devolved settlement was the highest it's ever been.

The SNP had many years of free movement of people, for some reason more people chose to go to England than Scotland. That's not Westminster's fault.

Again though it's the same old tired arguments always looking backwards.....

[Kato]

If the SNP can blame not building a road on the war in Ukraine I reckon world energy prices rising can be blamed on the war as well.

It's up to the SNP how they spend the budget, we have the highest public spending in the UK. The devolved settlement was the highest it's ever been.

The SNP had many years of free movement of people, for some reason more people chose to go to England than Scotland. That's not Westminster's fault.

Again though it's the same old tired arguments always looking backwards.....So the governance of the country by the Tory Party doesn't have any effect on the things you listed?

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[James310]

So the governance of the country by the Tory Party doesn't have any effect on the things you listed?

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I never said that, I said the day to day things are governed by the Scottish Government. Which is true.

[Kato]

I never said that, I said the day to day things are governed by the Scottish Government. Which is true...and I asked about the day to day effect the UK, the nation we both live in, governing party has on those things you listed.

They aren't difficult questions really.

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[He's here!]

From what I could see it was utter pish right up to the paywall.

Political leaders are like tribal chiefs and one way of assessing their fortunes is by counting up the number of heads they have accumulated from the toppled leaders of rival tribes.
Tony Blair had the shrunken skulls of John Major, William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard threaded around his waist when he left the stage.



It undoubtedly enhanced Keir Starmer’s authority when Boris Johnson was brought down, though his part in the immolation of Liz Truss soon afterwards was less obvious.
On this basis, Rishi Sunak is entitled to point to a modest enhancement of his political capital via the business of the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon.
Her job was to break up the Union, he was the guy in charge of sustaining it. She has failed and he has succeeded.
And a quick perusal of the circumstances points to the conclusion that while his role in her downfall is by no means the whole story, it is certainly more than tangential.

The Prime Minister’s reaction yesterday to news of Sturgeon’s departure highlighted one weapon he used against her well: being so obviously reasonable, respectful and polite. He never gave the SNP leader grounds to caricature him as an arrogant Sassenach who could be suspected of being in sympathy with the redcoats who once upon a time chased poor Mel Gibson around peatbogs.
Yet he was, in his understated way, completely steadfast in ruling out Westminster giving the First Minister permission to hold another referendum on separatism. To put it in cricketing terms, this was his standard, forward-defensive response to Sturgeon’s hostile bowling.
But there was more to his Sturgeon-thwarting than that. Because when she bowled a loose delivery, as she did with her Gender Recognition Reform legislation, he smashed that bad ball out of the park.
Deploying the Section 35 powers to block this law was something Sunak thought about carefully. There were voices in his inner circle arguing that he should not risk a direct confrontation with the Scottish parliament. He chose not to follow their advice and instead adopted the bolder and more principled stance recommended by his Equalities Minister, Kemi Badenoch.
His wielding of the Westminster veto was not the sole cause of Sturgeon’s troubles on this highly emotive issue – even in its absence the Adam Graham/Isla Bryson rape case would still have hit the headlines and caused the First Minister political difficulties.



But there is no doubt that Sunak’s bold stance – unveiled with customary courtesy and a lack of bombast – made her life much more difficult. It placed the whole trans issue front and centre of Scottish politics, in effect creating a swamp battlefield for Sturgeon onto which she charged, heart ruling head.
Trans policy isn’t the only reason Sturgeon is going either. The Supreme Court’s comprehensive dismantling of her claim to have the right to stage a second referendum was a predictable hammer blow and her notion of using the next general election as a de facto referendum was a sign of her impatience turning to impetuousness.
Add in the usual litany of problems facing any long-serving head of government in tricky economic times – in her case bungled ferry contracts, under-performing public services and claims of financial sleaze in her party – and not even the formidable Sturgeon could see a path to wrenching Scotland out of the United Kingdom.
But in her resignation statement yesterday, there lurked an implied compliment for Sunak. For Sturgeon, who had so skilfully used Boris Johnson’s persona to boost the idea of perennial English insensitivity to Scottish feelings, admitted that she had now become the prime polarising figure.
For the SNP to achieve independence, she said, ‘we must reach across the divide in Scottish politics. And my judgment now is that a new leader will be better able to do this: someone about whom the mind of almost everyone in the country is not already made up, for better or worse; someone who is not subject to quite the same polarised opinions, fair or unfair.’
In other words, she no longer saw a way that she could stitch together a sufficiently broad coalition for separatism to overcome the obstacles in its way. She never thought that when Boris was Billy Buntering his way through the political jungle.
So Reasonable Rishi is entitled to a mention in despatches. He played this opponent well. It is just a shame about all the others.

[James310]

..and I asked about the day to day effect the UK, the nation we both live in, governing party has on those things you listed.

They aren't difficult questions really.

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In some situations lots like defence or getting the vaccine for COVID in some very little like how Scottish education is managed. Sorry you don't like my answer.

[Mibbes Aye]

So the governance of the country by the Tory Party doesn't have any effect on the things you listed?

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This isn’t directed at you, I like your posts but I’m seeing this word all the time and it is messing with my happiness and I don’t believe I am the only one :greengrin

In a wide range of professions, public and private sector, the word ‘governance’ does not mean ‘the government’s approach to governing’ or that sort of thing.

It refers to a framework of risk assessment and risk management, compliance measures, audit and performance controls, ethics (especially but not exclusively in relation to medics) and basically all the gubbins that underpin whatever is being done, regardless of what is being done.

So in relation to politics, governance would refer to the process of ministers making policy, which civil servants implement according to the Civil Service code. Ministers then being accountable in parliament, whether Holyrood or Westminster. You could also include the Select Committees and the like. It is not about what the policy is, or the impact of it, it is the process and accountability of process by which it goes from an idea or a manifesto commitment, to a law or statutory regulation, I suppose.

[Kato]

In some situations lots like defence or getting the vaccine for COVID in some very little like how Scottish education is managed. Sorry you don't like my answer.I was asking about the affect the UK Gov governance of the whole country has had on the things you listed.

Sorry you didn't like the questions.

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[Kato]

This isn’t directed at you, I like your posts but I’m seeing this word all the time and it is messing with my happiness and I don’t believe I am the only one :greengrin

In a wide range of professions, public and private sector, the word ‘governance’ does not mean ‘the government’s approach to governing’ or that sort of thing.

It refers to a framework of risk assessment and risk management, compliance measures, audit and performance controls, ethics (especially but not exclusively in relation to medics) and basically all the gubbins that underpin whatever is being done, regardless of what is being done.

So in relation to politics, governance would refer to the process of ministers making policy, which civil servants implement according to the Civil Service code. Ministers then being accountable in parliament, whether Holyrood or Westminster. You could also include the Select Committees and the like. It is not about what the policy is, or the impact of it, it is the process and accountability of process by which it goes from an idea or a manifesto commitment, to a law or statutory regulation, I suppose.I'll try harder in the future, but not today. ;.)

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[grunt]

Political leaders are like tribal chiefs blah blah blah.
So basically he refused to "allow" Scotland to have another referendum, and therefore that's evidence of Dishi Rishi handling Sturgeon well? All the rest is noise. Cripes but you Tory types are easily satisfied.

Next time please provide a warning that you're going to post an O'Flynn article, I feel sick after reading that claptrap.

[grunt]

So in relation to politics, governance would refer to the process of ministers making policy, which civil servants implement according to the Civil Service code. Ministers then being accountable in parliament, whether Holyrood or Westminster. You could also include the Select Committees and the like. It is not about what the policy is, or the impact of it, it is the process and accountability of process by which it goes from an idea or a manifesto commitment, to a law or statutory regulation, I suppose.
Holy moly. :greengrin

[grunt]

I'll try harder in the future, but not today. ;.)

Go to the back of the class.

[WeeRussell]

From what I could see it was utter pish right up to the paywall.

I’m not convinced this was you requesting to see the whole thing… but.. feel any different now you can? 😁

[Kato]

Go to the back of the class.Am there anyway, always the best spot - near the radiators.

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[James310]

I was asking about the affect the UK Gov governance of the whole country has had on the things you listed.

Sorry you didn't like the questions.

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I listed education, health and transport which are fully in the hands of the Scottish Government. If your argument is all this extra money becomes available after Indy then explain how. The general consensus is after Indy we will be worse off with even less money.

Again though you are fighting the same old arguments that don't seem to be persuading anyone. If the last 24hrs has taught you anything it's surely a new approach is needed. If as expected Labour win the next GE is your argument still going to be exactly the same....

[Kato]

I listed education, health and transport which are fully in the hands of the Scottish Government.

So. The policies and actions of the UK Govt have had no effect on the day to day running of those things?

If you continue you to deny that they most definitely have then it's hard not to assume, as others already have on here, that you are a troll.

If you actually believe this then I can only assume you live on a cloud. How are the cuckoos up there?






If your argument is all this extra money becomes available after Indy then explain how. The general consensus is after Indy we will be worse off with even less money.

Again though you are fighting the same old arguments that don't seem to be persuading anyone. If the last 24hrs has taught you anything it's surely a new approach is needed. If as expected Labour win the next GE is your argument still going to be exactly the same....

I've just had my dinner so I'll decline this mealy-mouthedness.



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[Glory Lurker]

From the Independent (!)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpGdCmrWcAQ_i6H?format=jpg&name=medium

Is this definitely for real? I know it looks it and I see something on his twitter has been closed down by the app but I can't believe that, apart from the National,there is no outcry.

[James310]

So. The policies and actions of the UK Govt have had no effect on the day to day running of those things?

If you continue you to deny that they most definitely have then it's hard not to assume, as others already have on here, that you are a troll.

If you actually believe this then I can only assume you live on a cloud. How are the cuckoos up there?







I've just had my dinner so I'll decline this mealy-mouthedness.



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I am maybe not following the point you are trying to make, but all the areas I listed are in the hands of the Scottish Government and their responsibility. For example in Education the Scottish Government introduced things like the Curriculum for Excellence years ago and that dictates how my children are educated at school, nothing to do with Westminster.

If Education or Health is performing well does that mean the UK Government takes some credit as well then if they have such an influence?

This trolling stuff is tiring, just because you disagree with me or I have a different opinion is not trolling. I would have been banned from here years ago of I was trolling people all the time.

[Crunchie]

So. The policies and actions of the UK Govt have had no effect on the day to day running of those things?

If you continue you to deny that they most definitely have then it's hard not to assume, as others already have on here, that you are a troll.

If you actually believe this then I can only assume you live on a cloud. How are the cuckoos up there?







I've just had my dinner so I'll decline this mealy-mouthedness.



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There's that word troll again followed by the obligatory derogatory remarks when someone points out facts to you. :yawn:

[Crunchie]

I am maybe not following the point you are trying to make, but all the areas I listed are in the hands of the Scottish Government and their responsibility. For example in Education the Scottish Government introduced things like the Curriculum for Excellence years ago and that dictates how my children are educated at school, nothing to do with Westminster.

If Education or Health is performing well does that mean the UK Government takes some credit as well then if they have such an influence?

This trolling stuff is tiring, just because you disagree with me or I have a different opinion is not trolling. I would have been banned from here years ago of I was trolling people all the time.
Well said sir :agree:

[James310]

There's that word troll again followed by the obligatory derogatory remarks when someone points out facts to you. :yawn:

That seems to be new thing now, I don't agree with you so you are trolling me. Maybe they are trolling me? Although if you look at Nicola Sturgeon one of the criticisms was she never listened to anyone else other than people who agreed with her, so it's maybe a symptom of that attitude. It reeks of the if only you thought like me you would see the light kind of thing.

[Crunchie]

That seems to be new thing now, I don't agree with you so you are trolling me. Maybe they are trolling me? Although if you look at Nicola Sturgeon one of the criticisms was she never listened to anyone else other than people who agreed with her, so it's maybe a symptom of that attitude. It reeks of the if only you thought like me you would see the light kind of thing.
:agree:

[Mibbes Aye]

I'll try harder in the future, but not today. ;.)

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Hurrah! All I need now is to persuade people on the MB to stop using 'turgid' when they mean 'torpid' and I will have achieved nirvana. Sort of. :greengrin

[Kato]

There's that word troll again followed by the obligatory derogatory remarks when someone points out facts to you. :yawn:The fact is crunchie, I was asking what effect the UK govts policies and actions has had in the things he listed.

He could have answered that the availability of labour, day-to-day bills, the collapse of educational collaboration with our neighbouring countries, the ideological imposition of austerity and the cost and social erosion of an ideological wrecking of trading with our neighbours, they are things which have had an effect.

He didn't. What else am I supposed to assume?

He has opinions on what the effects of the SNP's policies and actions are in those areas but I know them already and wasn't asking that question.

What do you think the effects are in Scotland of the UK govt's policies and actions on the things he listed?

You probably have different opinions to mine which is fine, but it's an easy question and easy to avoid saying "SNP bad" all the time when putting them over.

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[Kato]

If Education or Health is performing well does that mean the UK Government takes some credit as well then if they have such an influence?
.

Uhm, yes. I'd give them credit as they would be laying the ground-work for all areas of the UK to perform well.

It's not that hard a question as I said.



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[Crunchie]

The fact is crunchie, I was asking what effect the UK govts policies and actions has had in the things he listed.

He could have answered that the availability of labour, day-to-day bills, the collapse of educational collaboration with our neighbouring countries, the ideological imposition of austerity and the cost and social erosion of an ideological wrecking of trading with our neighbours, they are things which have had an effect.

He didn't. What else am I supposed to assume?

He has opinions on what the effects of the SNP's policies and actions are in those areas but I know them already and wasn't asking that question.

What do you think the effects are in Scotland of the UK govt's policies and actions on the things he listed?

You probably have different opinions to mine which is fine, but it's an easy question and easy to avoid saying "SNP bad" all the time when putting them over.

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Not calling someone a troll is a lot easier, the man has put over many factual points which you disagree with and you resort to name calling, what does that say about you? I'm off to watch the footie.

[Kato]

Not calling someone a troll is a lot easier, the man has put over many factual points which you disagree with and you resort to name calling, what does that say about you? I'm off to watch the footie.Bye.

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[James310]

The fact is crunchie, I was asking what effect the UK govts policies and actions has had in the things he listed.

He could have answered that the availability of labour, day-to-day bills, the collapse of educational collaboration with our neighbouring countries, the ideological imposition of austerity and the cost and social erosion of an ideological wrecking of trading with our neighbours, they are things which have had an effect.

He didn't. What else am I supposed to assume?

He has opinions on what the effects of the SNP's policies and actions are in those areas but I know them already and wasn't asking that question.

What do you think the effects are in Scotland of the UK govt's policies and actions on the things he listed?

You probably have different opinions to mine which is fine, but it's an easy question and easy to avoid saying "SNP bad" all the time when putting them over.

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I am sorry I didn't answer with the exact answers you wanted to hear. I will try harder next time.

[Kato]

I am sorry I didn't answer with the exact answers you wanted to hear.

Blimey. Honestly just be real.

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[Glory Lurker]

Interesting to see international attention to the resignation. Salmond put us on the map and Sturgeon applied the dayglo.

[Smartie]

I’m not convinced this was you requesting to see the whole thing… but.. feel any different now you can? 😁

This may astonish you... but yes.

The first paragraph and a bit about collecting skulls was utter pish, the sort of stuff you expect from GB News, Rangers "Britannia rules the waves" complete nonsense that suggests the enforcement of a physical superiority.

I don't disagree with the premise of the article, in fact I agree with it. Boris and even more so Truss played into the hands of those who view the relationship between the UK government and Scotland in a particular way.

Sunak HAS been much cuter. He's not budging but at least he's being courteous. I thought it spoke volumes that he spoke to Sturgeon so early in his tenure and that Truss never bothered the whole 2 minutes she was in charge. It calls a bluff of sorts and presents challenges.

I'm not saying I like Sunak, his party, his position on the union or anything he stands for really. But I do think that a courteous and business like PM presents a different problem to a SNP leader than a disrespectful and impolite imbecile, even if they essentially still do the same thing.

Which was the premise of the article, I think. Not that Richi Sunak now actually has a wee Jimmy Krankie skull, as much as I'm sure regular readers of the Spectator would like him to have.

[WeeRussell]

Interesting to see international attention to the resignation. Salmond put us on the map and Sturgeon applied the dayglo.

It’s also brought the Holy Ground to life too 😁

Nice to see a few old heads popping up that we’ve not heard from much in a wee while.

[WeeRussell]

This may astonish you... but yes.

The first paragraph and a bit about collecting skulls was utter pish, the sort of stuff you expect from GB News, Rangers "Britannia rules the waves" complete nonsense that suggests the enforcement of a physical superiority.

I don't disagree with the premise of the article, in fact I agree with it. Boris and even more so Truss played into the hands of those who view the relationship between the UK government and Scotland in a particular way.

Sunak HAS been much cuter. He's not budging but at least he's being courteous. I thought it spoke volumes that he spoke to Sturgeon so early in his tenure and that Truss never bothered the whole 2 minutes she was in charge. It calls a bluff of sorts and presents challenges.

I'm not saying I like Sunak, his party, his position on the union or anything he stands for really. But I do think that a courteous and business like PM presents a different problem to a SNP leader than a disrespectful and impolite imbecile, even if they essentially still do the same thing.

Which was the premise of the article, I think. Not that Richi Sunak now actually has a wee Jimmy Krankie skull, as much as I'm sure regular readers of the Spectator would like him to have.

It did surprise me at first… But good explanation and I’m sure I’ll prefer your version and not bother with the original 👍

[He's here!]

This may astonish you... but yes.

The first paragraph and a bit about collecting skulls was utter pish, the sort of stuff you expect from GB News, Rangers "Britannia rules the waves" complete nonsense that suggests the enforcement of a physical superiority.

I don't disagree with the premise of the article, in fact I agree with it. Boris and even more so Truss played into the hands of those who view the relationship between the UK government and Scotland in a particular way.

Sunak HAS been much cuter. He's not budging but at least he's being courteous. I thought it spoke volumes that he spoke to Sturgeon so early in his tenure and that Truss never bothered the whole 2 minutes she was in charge. It calls a bluff of sorts and presents challenges.

I'm not saying I like Sunak, his party, his position on the union or anything he stands for really. But I do think that a courteous and business like PM presents a different problem to a SNP leader than a disrespectful and impolite imbecile, even if they essentially still do the same thing.

Which was the premise of the article, I think. Not that Richi Sunak now actually has a wee Jimmy Krankie skull, as much as I'm sure regular readers of the Spectator would like him to have.

Glad you took the time to read it. I just thought it made a number of valid points.

[WhileTheChief..]

A lot of good articles get posted on here.

They just get rubbished if people disagree with the points being made depending on which side of the argument they fall on.

Too many of you won’t even read the article because you don’t like the publication. Modern day equivalent of burning books really.

I’d never buy the Guardian but I read loads of it because of the articles that get posted on here. Usually as a result of me disagreeing with something but at least it gives me a different view point and occasionally it will make me stop and think and maybe then have a different take on things.

If you only ever read things from one point of view, how can you take part in the debate? You need to be more open minded than that surely?

It’s something Alex Salmond understood, he’s made a lot of sense since the announcement, as have other commentators.

For me, NSs biggest error was only talking to her own kind. She never really made an effort to speak to the rest of us other than to tell us we’re wrong.

[Crunchie]

A lot of good articles get posted on here.

They just get rubbished if people disagree with the points being made depending on which side of the argument they fall on.

Too many of you won’t even read the article because you don’t like the publication. Modern day equivalent of burning books really.

I’d never buy the Guardian but I read loads of it because of the articles that get posted on here. Usually as a result of me disagreeing with something but at least it gives me a different view point and occasionally it will make me stop and think and maybe then have a different take on things.

If you only ever read things from one point of view, how can you take part in the debate? You need to be more open minded than that surely?

It’s something Alex Salmond understood, he’s made a lot of sense since the announcement, as have other commentators.

For me, NSs biggest error was only talking to her own kind. She never really made an effort to speak to the rest of us other than to tell us we’re wrong.
I don't think anyone can argue with that, especially the first bit.

Salmond summed it up perfectly when he said the independence campaign has to be separated from governing the country, Sturgeon failed as a result of not doing this. And climbing into bed with the greens.

[Skol]

For me, NSs biggest error was only talking to her own kind. She never really made an effort to speak to the rest of us other than to tell us we’re wrong.

This for me is exactly it. I and others have been rubbished on here for saying exactly this. How dare a unionist tell us how to gain independence type stuff. Thing is in order to build a majority this is exactly what is required. Whoever the new leader is does need a root and branch review of strategy

[Smartie]

I don't think anyone can argue with that, especially the first bit.

Salmond summed it up perfectly when he said the independence campaign has to be separated from governing the country, Sturgeon failed as a result of not doing this. And climbing into bed with the greens.

This is one of the things I struggle to ge my head around.

How exactly do you separate the two?

And I find it a bit weird that the SNP want to be in power in Scotland. They're carrying out a job they fundamentally don't really want to do, or think can be done to anything like it's potential in the current set up.

It seems to be an opportunity only to make themselves look daft and incompetent. The nature of the union / devolution means that they lack the absolute accountability for the decisions they make as a lump of money comes along the next year irrespective of how well they do (either a generous or mean amount of money depending on viewpoint).

They were fairly popular in government in their early years but there is something a bit uncomfortable about a Scottish SNP government working with a Westminster government and I say that as someone who has voted for them every time.

Maybe it will be different if / when Labour get in?

But I wonder if campaigning for independence is better done as a protest party or one that is not in government?

[grunt]

Too many of you won’t even read the article because you don’t like the publication. Modern day equivalent of burning books really.
Oh good grief what rubbish.

I will approach certain publications (Spiked anyone?) with trepidation because experience tells me I've never read anything there I've agreed with. More frequently I will avoid certain "journalists", who have written from the same viewpoint for the last 20 years, a viewpoint I disagree with, and it's highly unlikely that they'll change when that viewpoint keeps them earning cash.

So spare me the book burning analogy, it's really poor.

[Smartie]

This for me is exactly it. I and others have been rubbished on here for saying exactly this. How dare a unionist tell us how to gain independence type stuff. Thing is in order to build a majority this is exactly what is required. Whoever the new leader is does need a root and branch review of strategy

It definitely got a lot more toxic and abrasive under Sturgeon but I don't think that was necessarily her fault. She had to take an unbelievable amount of crap and it's little wonder that a bit of a bunker mentality emerged and that her supporters would be defensive. Under these circumstances it can be hard to differentiate between people on the opposite side who want to debate in good faith and those who just want to drag the debate to the gutter in order to win.

It's occasional a pleasure debating with people who hold different opinions although I must admit, the whole independence thing has become dull, uninteresting and pretty negative in recent years.

[grunt]

And I find it a bit weird that the SNP want to be in power in Scotland. They're carrying out a job they fundamentally don't really want to do, or think can be done to anything like it's potential in the current set up.

But I wonder if campaigning for independence is better done as a protest party or one that is not in government?I don't think you've really thought this through. What would be the point of a protest party? That's effectively what the SNP was decades ago, they've been successful at making their protest more widely accepted, and now you suggest they start again?

Alternatively you suggest they should be a "Just Stop Oil"-like protest group?

Without political power the SNP would be reduced to an easily sidelined protest group. The Tories are actually putting through legislation to restrict the effectiveness of protest groups!

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64673410

Remarkable to see laid bare across today's front pages just how much clout Sturgeon carried in dictating SG direction of travel and how rapidly those plans have been trashed in the wake of her downfall. 'Emergency' summit to address the 'democratic outrage' and 'constitutional crisis' of the Supreme Court ruling abandoned, ditto (it would seem) the court action over the gender bill fiasco, with Swinney conceding the party is hopelessly split on the issue (although I note the timing of the new leadership election, while ensuring the emergency conference can't go ahead, does leave just enough room to meet the April deadline for s35 court action).

https://archive.is/jSYhi

There will be a lot of fingers crossed that Operation Branchform isn't stepped up too quickly to further muddy the waters.

[grunt]

It's occasional a pleasure debating with people who hold different opinions although I must admit, the whole independence thing has become dull, uninteresting and pretty negative in recent years.
If you feel this way, then the unionists have won.

The desire for independence is the very opposite of negative. We want Scotland to have a place in the world, to have good relationships and good trade with our neighbours (including rUK). We want to be a welcoming place for people to visit, to live and to learn; and similarly we want our people free to live work and learn where they wish to. We welcome immigration to increase the variety of our population. We want our people to be healthy, and we recognise that greater wealth equality will help with that, so we tax richer people more than others. We want Scottish businesses to be able to trade freely around the world, and we want the rest of the world to appreciate the things we make and the talent we have. We want a good future for our children and their descendants, we want to save the planet and we recognise that means reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. We recognise that we need energy and we are trying to develop alternative sources. None of this can be achieved when we are led from Westminster by corrupt politicians who only want to feather their own nests.

If that is all perceived as negative, then we've lost the argument.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think you've really thought this through. What would be the point of a protest party? That's effectively what the SNP was decades ago, they've been successful at making their protest more widely accepted, and now you suggest they start again?

Alternatively you suggest they should be a "Just Stop Oil"-like protest group?

Without political power the SNP would be reduced to an easily sidelined protest group. The Tories are actually putting through legislation to restrict the effectiveness of protest groups!

The ‘wouldn’t life be great without politicians’ brigade exist for every issue. They magically want politics to be conducted by non politicians. Literally not possible but hey ho. Usually they like to throw in requests for citizens assemblies. Wtf is parliament if not a citizens assembly?
With Indy, it’s calls for a non political Indy group? Like there isn’t hundreds of them already?


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[Crunchie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64673410

Remarkable to see laid bare across today's front pages just how much clout Sturgeon carried in dictating SG direction of travel and how rapidly those plans have been trashed in the wake of her downfall. 'Emergency' summit to address the 'democratic outrage' and 'constitutional crisis' abandoned, ditto (it would seem) the court action over the gender bill fiasco, with Swinney conceding the party is hopelessly split on the issue (although I note the timing of the new leadership election, while ensuring the emergency conference can't go ahead, does leave just enough room to meet the April deadline for s35 court action).

https://archive.is/jSYhi

There will be a lot of fingers crossed that Operation Branchform isn't stepped up too quickly to further muddy the waters.
I do believe her iron rod was stronger than Thatcher's, she paid a similar fate.

[Smartie]

I don't think you've really thought this through. What would be the point of a protest party? That's effectively what the SNP was decades ago, they've been successful at making their protest more widely accepted, and now you suggest they start again?

Alternatively you suggest they should be a "Just Stop Oil"-like protest group?

Without political power the SNP would be reduced to an easily sidelined protest group. The Tories are actually putting through legislation to restrict the effectiveness of protest groups!


If you feel this way, then the unionists have won.

The desire for independence is the very opposite of negative. We want Scotland to have a place in the world, to have good relationships and good trade with our neighbours (including rUK). We want to be a welcoming place for people to visit, to live and to learn; and similarly we want our people free to live work and learn where they wish to. We welcome immigration to increase the variety of our population. We want our people to be healthy, and we recognise that greater wealth equality will help with that, so we tax richer people more than others. We want Scottish businesses to be able to trade freely around the world, and we want the rest of the world to appreciate the things we make and the talent we have. We want a good future for our children and their descendants, we want to save the planet and we recognise that means reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. We recognise that we need energy and we are trying to develop alternative sources. None of this can be achieved when we are led from Westminster by corrupt politicians who only want to feather their own nests.

If that is all perceived as negative, then we've lost the argument.

Where I'm really trying to come from here is that I feel the argument has stagnated and a stalemate has been reached.

I don't disagree with anything you've said in the second of these posts but independence isn't going to be won by winning me over a bit more. Something has to be done to reach out to those who haven't made the jump yet and there's not really anything there that I can see that hasn't been said or done already.

You can make those points but unfortunately people are still swayed against it by any combination of "you cannae use the pound, but whit about ma pension, but what if Labour get in in England, wee Jimmy Krankie's a boot, if they can't organise education in Scotland then why should we trust them on independence, women with cocks are going to rape your kids in changing rooms, but...but... recycling cans is difficult, ferries" - which is what I find negative, depressing and downright tedious. But it's successful and currently winning the argument.

Personally, I just feel we're at the stage where more of the same will yield similar results and we need to consider what we might do differently.

[WeeRussell]

Oh good grief what rubbish.

I will approach certain publications (Spiked anyone?) with trepidation because experience tells me I've never read anything there I've agreed with. More frequently I will avoid certain "journalists", who have written from the same viewpoint for the last 20 years, a viewpoint I disagree with, and it's highly unlikely that they'll change when that viewpoint keeps them earning cash.

So spare me the book burning analogy, it's really poor.

Saved me typing the same. If we were compelled to read every full (paywalled) article by unionist hacks linked to on here, we’d have no time to argue!

The people that post them don’t even read them half the time.

Quite happy to read and listen to views from all angles. But not from people that don’t ever say anything.

[He's here!]

A lot of good articles get posted on here.

They just get rubbished if people disagree with the points being made depending on which side of the argument they fall on.

Too many of you won’t even read the article because you don’t like the publication. Modern day equivalent of burning books really.

I’d never buy the Guardian but I read loads of it because of the articles that get posted on here. Usually as a result of me disagreeing with something but at least it gives me a different view point and occasionally it will make me stop and think and maybe then have a different take on things.

If you only ever read things from one point of view, how can you take part in the debate? You need to be more open minded than that surely?

It’s something Alex Salmond understood, he’s made a lot of sense since the announcement, as have other commentators.

For me, NSs biggest error was only talking to her own kind. She never really made an effort to speak to the rest of us other than to tell us we’re wrong.

I've been a long time subscriber to the Guardian and the Telegraph online. Probably partly a generational thing that I still maintain a connection to newspapers in an age where news and views are freely available from endless sources, but also because they provide a range of contrasting views penned by largely excellent writers. Scottish newspapers these days, sadly, offer very thin fare in comparison. Like you, I've always thought it's healthy to take on board a range of viewpoints and not simply refuse to even read or listen to a point of view which doesn't chime with your own. Social media has very much enabled a landscape where you can cocoon yourself in a world of like-minded folk to the exclusion of alternative opinions.

Sturgeon was clearly aware she was a polarising figure but as you say she gave the impression of having zero truck with dissenting voices, even from within her own party.

[The Harp Awakes]

I've been a long time subscriber to the Guardian and the Telegraph online. Probably partly a generational thing that I still maintain a connection to newspapers in an age where news and views are freely available from endless sources, but also because they provide a range of contrasting views penned by largely excellent writers. Scottish newspapers these days, sadly, offer very thin fare in comparison. Like you, I've always thought it's healthy to take on board a range of viewpoints and not simply refuse to even read or listen to a point of view which doesn't chime with your own. Social media has very much enabled a landscape where you can cocoon yourself in a world of like-minded folk to the exclusion of alternative opinions.

Sturgeon was clearly aware she was a polarising figure but as you say she gave the impression of having zero truck with dissenting voices, even from within her own party.

I agree with the general point you are making about reading different perspectives on issues such as independence. It is the only sensible thing to do if you every want to understand the counter argument, and attempt to change minds.

In reality though, there is really only one media outlet, The National, who would provide you with a positive perspective on independence. Every other UK broadcaster is either openly hostile or opposed to Scottish independence and/or the SNP. So inevitably you will not get a balanced perspective by reading the Guardian and Telegraph, let alone the Daily Mail, Express, BBC website, GB news, etc, etc.

I don't know if anyone watched QT last night? Regardless of which side of the fence you are on w.r.t independence, I would hope everyone could see how overwhelmingly one sided the narrative was from the panel/audience on Nicola Sturgeon and her resignation. There was no SNP politician on the panel, with only SNP supporting Ruth Wishart putting forward a positive view of Nicola/the SNP/independence. Even then, Fiona Bruce repeatedly interrupted her when she tried to speak.

You then had the farce of Fiona Bruce asking the audience if there was anyone who had a positive view of NS, only for no-one to put their hands up.

So on one hand I agree with you that it is right for the SNP to reach out to those on the opposite side of the argument. However, the big problem they have is that it is very difficult if not impossible to do that, where the available mass communication channels, aka the media, are openly hostile to their argument.

[WhileTheChief..]

Saved me typing the same. If we were compelled to read every full (paywalled) article by unionist hacks linked to on here, we’d have no time to argue!

The people that post them don’t even read them half the time.

Quite happy to read and listen to views from all angles. But not from people that don’t ever say anything.

I'm talking about mainstream media here. You may not like it, but it doesn't mean everything in it is written by Unionist hacks!

That there is the problem. You can't even discuss this tiny little point I'm making without bringing the tone down to that kinda level.

The BBC , Sky or whoever have written some great articles on the positives and negative's of SG time in office. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Theres's lots that the SG could have done better during her time, there's really no harm in some outlets pointing it out.

Maybe under the new leader things in the country will improve? Most of us would be happy with that.

[WeeRussell]

I agree with the general point you are making about reading different perspectives on issues such as independence. It is the only sensible thing to do if you every want to understand the counter argument, and attempt to change minds.

In reality though, there is really only one media outlet, The National, who would provide you with a positive perspective on independence. Every other UK broadcaster is either openly hostile or opposed to Scottish independence and/or the SNP. So inevitably you will not get a balanced perspective by reading the Guardian and Telegraph, let alone the Daily Mail, Express, BBC website, GB news, etc, etc.

I don't know if anyone watched QT last night? Regardless of which side of the fence you are on w.r.t independence, I would hope everyone could see how overwhelmingly one sided the narrative was from the panel/audience on Nicola Sturgeon and her resignation. There was no SNP politician on the panel, with only SNP supporting Ruth Wishart putting forward a positive view of Nicola/the SNP/independence. Even then, Fiona Bruce repeatedly interrupted her when she tried to speak.

You then had the farce of Fiona Bruce asking the audience if there was anyone who had a positive view of NS, only for no-one to put their hands up.

So on one hand I agree with you that it is right for the SNP to reach out to those on the opposite side of the argument. However, the big problem they have is that it is very difficult if not impossible to that, where the available mass communication channels, aka the media, are openly hostile to their argument.

I did watch it, and agree with you despite generally quite liking Fiona Bruce as a presenter/host.

I also thought I would enjoy Ian Hislop being on the show more then I did. Maybe my fault for letting HIGNFY setting my expectations for Question Time 😁

[WhileTheChief..]

I agree with the general point you are making about reading different perspectives on issues such as independence. It is the only sensible thing to do if you every want to understand the counter argument, and attempt to change minds.

In reality though, there is really only one media outlet, The National, who would provide you with a positive perspective on independence. Every other UK broadcaster is either openly hostile or opposed to Scottish independence and/or the SNP. So inevitably you will not get a balanced perspective by reading the Guardian and Telegraph, let alone the Daily Mail, Express, BBC website, GB news, etc, etc.

I don't know if anyone watched QT last night? Regardless of which side of the fence you are on w.r.t independence, I would hope everyone could see how overwhelmingly one sided the narrative was from the panel/audience on Nicola Sturgeon and her resignation. There was no SNP politician on the panel, with only SNP supporting Ruth Wishart putting forward a positive view of Nicola/the SNP/independence. Even then, Fiona Bruce repeatedly interrupted her when she tried to speak.

You then had the farce of Fiona Bruce asking the audience if there was anyone who had a positive view of NS, only for no-one to put their hands up.

So on one hand I agree with you that it is right for the SNP to reach out to those on the opposite side of the argument. However, the big problem they have is that it is very difficult if not impossible to do that, where the available mass communication channels, aka the media, are openly hostile to their argument.


Why do you think they're so against it? Quite a coincidence for so many media outlets to have the same view on a subject. If the National is the only one supporting Indy, maybe that's because it's not such a great idea?!

Maybe no one had positive thoughts about NS or didn't want to be seen to show it on national TV?! It doesn't mean it was a farce.

[WeeRussell]

I'm talking about mainstream media here. You may not like it, but it doesn't mean everything in it is written by Unionist hacks!

That there is the problem. You can't even discuss this tiny little point I'm making without bringing the tone down to that kinda level.

The BBC , Sky or whoever have written some great articles on the positives and negative's of SG time in office. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Theres's lots that the SG could have done better during her time, there's really no harm in some outlets pointing it out.

Maybe under the new leader things in the country will improve? Most of us would be happy with that.

It doesn’t mean that. And I never said it did? There are posters on here constantly posting links simply because they criticise nicola sturgeon, not because they are good reads. That doesn’t equate to ‘everything’

How can I not bring it down to a level that upsets you but still tell you that there are a number of journalists and writers that I would regard in that way?

You implied we don’t read things because they’re not our views. You couldn’t be more wrong. I tend to read opposing views more than those I already agree with when it comes to articles, albeit i sometimes get irritated doing so.

I didn’t think my reply was taking the tone down any further than your “burning books” comparison personally.

Your last two paragraphs are spot-on in my opinion. I just don’t think they’re remotely relevant in challenging what I said. Nobody is denying there are good and bad articles everywhere. I just disagree with your insinuation that we’re not allowed to pick and choose those to disregard because of who has written them.

[Rumble de Thump]

The same people who have obsessively attacked the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon will continue to obsessively attack the SNP and whoever replaces her. It's desperately tragic and unhealthy behaviour but I can't see the mindset of such people changing for the better.

[grunt]

That there is the problem. You can't even discuss this tiny little point I'm making without bringing the tone down to that kinda level.
:confused:

Which bit are you referring to? The bit where I said your allusion to book burning was rubbish? I'm struggling to think of a better description.

[grunt]

Why do you think they're so against it? Quite a coincidence for so many media outlets to have the same view on a subject. If the National is the only one supporting Indy, maybe that's because it's not such a great idea?
:greengrin

I can't believe you thought about this, wrote it down and then clicked on submit reply!

[AgentDaleCooper]

Why do you think they're so against it? Quite a coincidence for so many media outlets to have the same view on a subject. If the National is the only one supporting Indy, maybe that's because it's not such a great idea?!

Maybe no one had positive thoughts about NS or didn't want to be seen to show it on national TV?! It doesn't mean it was a farce.

I'm no big fan of sturgeon or the SNP, but a lack of MSM support for independence means nothing.

It clearly is a farce if no one had a positive opinion of NS, because she still has approval ratings any leader in britain would kill for, so the audiance clearly isn't reflecting that.

[WeeRussell]

I'm no big fan of sturgeon or the SNP, but a lack of MSM support for independence means nothing.

It clearly is a farce if no one had a positive opinion of NS, because she still has approval ratings any leader in britain would kill for, so the audiance clearly isn't reflecting that.

I can’t remember the exact question posed to the audience but obviously the fact it was in Rugby played a big part (FB made a fleeting reference to this). Many probably didn’t have a strong opinion either way… and if some are basing their view on what the English media (or last night’s panel!) say…

[grunt]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/resources/images/16461997.jpg?type=mds-article-962

[James310]

The same people who have obsessively attacked the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon will continue to obsessively attack the SNP and whoever replaces her. It's desperately tragic and unhealthy behaviour but I can't see the mindset of such people changing for the better.

Can I ask why being critical of a government is frowned upon? Would you class the people who attack the Tories or Labour when they get into power as desperately tragic and unhealthy?

[James310]

The question was I think who supports Scottish Independence, based in England it's not a massive surprise nobody raised their hands. It was not raise your hand if you think Nicola Sturgeon is great.

[grunt]

The question was I think who supports Scottish Independence, based in England it's not a massive surprise nobody raised their hands. It was not raise your hand if you think Nicola Sturgeon is great.In that case it's a stupid idea to ask the question in the first place.

[James310]

In that case it's a stupid idea to ask the question in the first place.

Why, it's a audience participation show and it seems reasonable to ask tbe audience to see what their opinion on the main question was. Scottish people live in England as well.

[James310]

Remind me how many Scottish WM seats Labour have at the moment? :greengrin

Labour in Scotland is a busted flush. And they'd be the same in the rest of the UK if there was anything approaching a decent political party to be found.

Labour in Scotland don't seem to be a busted flush at all, nearly neck and neck with the SNP in Scotland now. Seat prediction below.

SNP 27 (-21)
Lab 23 (+22)
Con 5 (-1)
LD 2 (n/c)

https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1626567758442905607?t=gNH5TXh_Nt7-OxoTv1DLMA&s=19

This is why I think Indy is further away than it's ever been, seems we are entering a new phase in Scotland.

[The Harp Awakes]

Why do you think they're so against it? Quite a coincidence for so many media outlets to have the same view on a subject. If the National is the only one supporting Indy, maybe that's because it's not such a great idea?!

Maybe no one had positive thoughts about NS or didn't want to be seen to show it on national TV?! It doesn't mean it was a farce.

Sorry, you're missing my point.

Media outlets communicate the 'news' with their editorial slant. So, if the vast majority of UK media outlets take a pro unionist view on life, they are never going to publish the SNP's proposals, political record, etc, in a positive light.

So, although I agree that there is an onus on the SNP to make a case for change, re; independence, the predominance of a pro-unionist media makes it difficult for them to get their message across.

The point about the BBC and QT, is that the BBC try to project themselves as being politically neutral, whereas QT was the exact opposite last night as due to the make up of the audience and panel, there was no opportunity for a two sided debate/perspectives.

[The Harp Awakes]

Labour in Scotland don't seem to be a busted flush at all, nearly neck and neck with the SNP in Scotland now. Seat prediction below.

SNP 27 (-21)
Lab 23 (+22)
Con 5 (-1)
LD 2 (n/c)

https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1626567758442905607?t=gNH5TXh_Nt7-OxoTv1DLMA&s=19

This is why I think Indy is further away than it's ever been, seems we are entering a new phase in Scotland.

You seem to be making assumptions based on one opinion poll at one moment in time. It's trends that matter. There were ~6 polls showing an independence lead of 52-56% a few months back. Why do you ignore them? Let's see where we are in the months ahead.

[grunt]

Why, it's a audience participation show and it seems reasonable to ask tbe audience to see what their opinion on the main question was. Scottish people live in England as well.
I almost give up. You yourself said it was no surprise and you knew what the answer would be, but you still think it was a good idea to ask the question? What insight does it provide into the independence debate? Nothing.

[Stairway 2 7]

Labour in Scotland don't seem to be a busted flush at all, nearly neck and neck with the SNP in Scotland now. Seat prediction below.

SNP 27 (-21)
Lab 23 (+22)
Con 5 (-1)
LD 2 (n/c)

https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1626567758442905607?t=gNH5TXh_Nt7-OxoTv1DLMA&s=19

This is why I think Indy is further away than it's ever been, seems we are entering a new phase in Scotland.

My seat model has labour ahead. Can't see it but I've seen people on here saying yougov is the most accurate. That's 4 polls in a row showing a massive sudden drop for snp, the writing was on the wall

Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
My Seat Model:

LAB: 30 (+29)
SNP: 21 (-27)
CON: 3 (-3)
LDM: 5 (+1)

Changes w/ GE2019

[James310]

You seem to be making assumptions based on one opinion poll at one moment in time. It's trends that matter. There were ~6 polls showing an independence lead of 52-56% a few months back. Why do you ignore them? Let's see where we are in the months ahead.

Yes there 6 polls with Yes in the lead, the previous 30 to 40 had No leading in all but a few.

[James310]

I almost give up. You yourself said it was no surprise and you knew what the answer would be, but you still think it was a good idea to ask the question? What insight does it provide into the independence debate? Nothing.

There could have been one or a few, would have been good to get their views that's all.

[James310]

My seat model has labour ahead. Can't see it but I've seen people on here saying yougov is the most accurate. That's 4 polls in a row showing a massive sudden drop for snp, the writing was on the wall

Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
My Seat Model:

LAB: 30 (+29)
SNP: 21 (-27)
CON: 3 (-3)
LDM: 5 (+1)

Changes w/ GE2019

Labour are finished in Scotland......

[grunt]

The point about the BBC and QT, is that the BBC try to project themselves as being politically neutral, whereas QT was the exact opposite last night as due to the make up of the audience and panel, there was no opportunity for a two sided debate/perspectives.
It's worse than that. The first item in the BBC Charter reads:


To provide impartial news and information to help people understand and engage with the world around them

https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc/governance/mission

They are failing in their prime objective. And it's designed that way. The BBC Chairman is a Tory donor who is mates with Johnson and who helped arrange a loan for him. (Why does Johnson need a loan anyway?)

[grunt]

There could have been one or a few, would have been good to get their views that's all.You said, "it's not a massive surprise no one put their hand up", and now you say it would be good to get their views. Perhaps in that case an experienced interviewer like Bruce should have asked an open question. You seem to change your argument every time you get called out on something.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry, you're missing my point.

Media outlets communicate the 'news' with their editorial slant. So, if the vast majority of UK media outlets take a pro unionist view on life, they are never going to publish the SNP's proposals, political record, etc, in a positive light.

So, although I agree that there is an onus on the SNP to make a case for change, re; independence, the predominance of a pro-unionist media makes it difficult for them to get their message across.

The point about the BBC and QT, is that the BBC try to project themselves as being politically neutral, whereas QT was the exact opposite last night as due to the make up of the audience and panel, there was no opportunity for a two sided debate/perspectives.

QT was broadcast from Rugby last night. I’m not sure the BBC could have done much about the audience make-up with that in mind :greengrin

They do ask some filtering questions when people apply but I don’t think they ask about people’s views on independence, at least not in England. I could understand them asking if they knew of something in advance, like a referendum, but they weren’t to know that Sturgeon was going to quit the day before.

And to be honest, given most of the audience presumably don’t have a vote, maybe have no skin in the game at all, then they probably don’t care. It was sudden and newsworthy though, hence people talking about it on QT.

[James310]

You said, "it's not a massive surprise no one put their hand up", and now you say it would be good to get their views. Perhaps in that case an experienced interviewer like Bruce should have asked an open question. You seem to change your argument every time you get called out on something.

You seem to be getting in a bit of a tangle, I said the question was does anyone support Scottish Independence, being in England it wasn't a surprise that nobody put their hand up, but it was a reasonable question to ask because there may have been someone in the audience that did.

[Zambernardi1875]

You seem to be getting in a bit of a tangle, I said the question was does anyone support Scottish Independence, being in England it wasn't a surprise that nobody put their hand up, but it was a reasonable question to ask because there may have been someone in the audience that did.

It was as pointless as asking the audience what they thought about the riots in Peru.

[grunt]

You seem to be getting in a bit of a tangle, I said the question was does anyone support Scottish Independence, being in England it wasn't a surprise that nobody put their hand up, but it was a reasonable question to ask because there may have been someone in the audience that did.You don't know what an open question is, do you?

[He's here!]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-leaves-scotland-disastrous-economic-legacy/

'Sturgeon's disastrous economic legacy'.

[James310]

You don't know what an open question is, do you?

Course I do, it's really not a big issue you seem to be getting upset about, if you want to keep it going feel free.

[Zambernardi1875]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-leaves-scotland-disastrous-economic-legacy/

'Sturgeon's disastrous economic legacy'.

What credentials has the writer got is publishing such an article?

[The Harp Awakes]

QT was broadcast from Rugby last night. I’m not sure the BBC could have done much about the audience make-up with that in mind :greengrin

They do ask some filtering questions when people apply but I don’t think they ask about people’s views on independence, at least not in England. I could understand them asking if they knew of something in advance, like a referendum, but they weren’t to know that Sturgeon was going to quit the day before.

And to be honest, given most of the audience presumably don’t have a vote, maybe have no skin in the game at all, then they probably don’t care. It was sudden and newsworthy though, hence people talking about it on QT.

The question which was being debated was on Nicola Sturgeon and her resignation, not independence and QT saw fit to have it as their leading question.

Fair point about the location and make up of the audience, but then opening it out the audience was always going to generate a partisan view. No SNP politician on the panel added to the imbalance of the debate.

[The Harp Awakes]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-leaves-scotland-disastrous-economic-legacy/

'Sturgeon's disastrous economic legacy'.

Ah that bastion of political neutrality, the Telegraph says it's true so it must be.

Backers of the party which has single handedly wrecked the UK economy and plunged the population into a cost of living crisis.

[He's here!]

What credentials has the writer got is publishing such an article?

Economics reporter, formerly of the Guardian and Financusl Times. What credentials do you think she requires?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-leaves-scotland-disastrous-economic-legacy/

'Sturgeon's disastrous economic legacy'.

£250,000 a year Boris Johnson was making from the Telegraph for writing "edgy" articles, while collecting his other salary while playing London Mayor.

[Ozyhibby]

Telegraph endorsed Liz Truss and her economic plan so they know their stuff.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zambernardi1875]

Economics reporter, formerly of the Guardian and Financusl Times. What credentials do you think she requires?

House and home for the Financial Times. British airways inflight magazine and now property correspondent. She didn’t even do economics at university.

[Smartie]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/15/nicola-sturgeon-leaves-scotland-disastrous-economic-legacy/

'Sturgeon's disastrous economic legacy'.

Do you mind copying this one too? This one is also pish right up to the paywall but I’m happy to read on again.

I own a business in the city centre. When it comes to considering external factors affecting the performance of my business I’ve never considered anything from Sturgeon or the SNP to be to blame for any of our ills. Covid, Brexit and the war in Ukraine are contributing to our costs spiralling, like everyone else, but we just need to find a way to deal with it. Whoever is in charge of the council at any time will be to blame for the often nonsensical decision making that sees the city centre in such a state of decline but that’s another story.

Although the nature of my business is strange in that huge opportunities exist for us when certain public services are criminally underfunded and poorly managed over a long period of time, so my perspective on this can be skewed.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Telegraph endorsed Liz Truss and her economic plan so they know their stuff.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Endorsed 12+ years of a Conservative Government that has more than trebled the UK National debt figure, increased foodbank usage 100 fold, driven up suicide rates and taken inequality to record breaking heights. They certainly do know their stuff.

[Stonewall]

£250,000 a year Boris Johnson was making from the Telegraph for writing "edgy" articles, while collecting his other salary while playing London Mayor.

i really think that’s a little unfair. His column for the Telegraph clearly took up a minimal amount of his time.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

i really think that’s a little unfair. His column for the Telegraph clearly took up a minimal amount of his time.

As did being London Mayor.

[Moulin Yarns]

As did being London Mayor.

Don't forget the small amount of time he spent being prime minister as well!!

[Mibbes Aye]

The question which was being debated was on Nicola Sturgeon and her resignation, not independence and QT saw fit to have it as their leading question.

Fair point about the location and make up of the audience, but then opening it out the audience was always going to generate a partisan view. No SNP politician on the panel added to the imbalance of the debate.

I don’t think they would routinely have a SNP politician on when doing the show from Rugby, or any other English town for that matter. Having said that they have definitely had SNP pols on before when the broadcast was from London. Not very often, but I suppose it is up to them to explain their process.

As for Sturgeon’s departure, it was incredibly close to the wire for getting an SNP pol on. I don’t think Flynn gave a public reaction until late on the Wednesday. In many respects I can understand if party management within the SNP - I presume they have their own informal grouping of grandees and elder statespeople, most parties do - thought it best to sit it out even if invited.

[grunt]

House and home for the Financial Times. British airways inflight magazine and now property correspondent. She didn’t even do economics at university.Her February articles for The Telegraph:


How much more it costs women to get on the housing ladder
House prices are falling hardest in this region
Inflation cools for third month in a row
Buy-to-let bust sees 66 rental homes disappear each day
How Britain's broken housing market is crushing growth
Being a landlord now means being demonised
Boost for homeowners as mortgage products hit six month high
Landlords scramble to take back properties
Buy-to-let crisis is golden opportunity
House prices plunge 10% n three months
Interest rates and inflation trigger drop in house building
Mortgage demand hits 12 year low
Etc

What do you mean she's not qualified to talk about Sturgeon's economic legacy?

[grunt]

I don’t think they would routinely have a SNP politician on when doing the show from Rugby, or any other English town for that matter. Having said that they have definitely had SNP pols on before when the broadcast was from London. Not very often, but I suppose it is up to them to explain their process.

As for Sturgeon’s departure, it was incredibly close to the wire for getting an SNP pol on. I don’t think Flynn gave a public reaction until late on the Wednesday. In many respects I can understand if party management within the SNP - I presume they have their own informal grouping of grandees and elder statespeople, most parties do - thought it best to sit it out even if invited.
The SNP's Head of Broadcast Media Erik Geddes says that the SNP were invited on the show and then subsequently uninvited.

https://twitter.com/erikgeddes/status/1626354101121433605?s=20

[WhileTheChief..]

Economics reporter, formerly of the Guardian and Financusl Times. What credentials do you think she requires?

Doesn't like the content, so tries to rubbish the author!

This is crazy. If the same journalist had written loads of positive stuff absolutely nobody on here would be questioning her credentials.

I wonder if any journalist from the National has ever written anything remotely critical of the SNP? What'r their take on all the issues that other outlets appear to be voicing concerns about?

Do they just ignore any problems or is it easier for them just to blame Westminster?

[Zambernardi1875]

Her February articles for The Telegraph:


How much more it costs women to get on the housing ladder
House prices are falling hardest in this region
Inflation cools for third month in a row
Buy-to-let bust sees 66 rental homes disappear each day
How Britain's broken housing market is crushing growth
Being a landlord now means being demonised
Boost for homeowners as mortgage products hit six month high
Landlords scramble to take back properties
Buy-to-let crisis is golden opportunity
House prices plunge 10% n three months
Interest rates and inflation trigger drop in house building
Mortgage demand hits 12 year low
Etc

What do you mean she's not qualified to talk about Sturgeon's economic legacy?

Hahaha that’s amazing. Sums him up. Constant pure and utter desperation to fling mud no matter where the source.

[Mibbes Aye]

The SNP's Head of Broadcast Media Erik Geddes says that the SNP were invited on the show and then subsequently uninvited.

https://twitter.com/erikgeddes/status/1626354101121433605?s=20

If that’s the case then he should really publish what he has got and put an onus on the BBC to respond.

As I said, I can easily understand why senior figures in the SNP would have been reluctant to have someone on that show at that time.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Her February articles for The Telegraph:


How much more it costs women to get on the housing ladder
House prices are falling hardest in this region
Inflation cools for third month in a row
Buy-to-let bust sees 66 rental homes disappear each day
How Britain's broken housing market is crushing growth
Being a landlord now means being demonised
Boost for homeowners as mortgage products hit six month high
Landlords scramble to take back properties
Buy-to-let crisis is golden opportunity
House prices plunge 10% n three months
Interest rates and inflation trigger drop in house building
Mortgage demand hits 12 year low
Etc

What do you mean she's not qualified to talk about Sturgeon's economic legacy?

She's very right wing and therefore "very clued up on economics and such things". (Just as long as you ignore the economic record of her Government).

[He's here!]

Doesn't like the content, so tries to rubbish the author!

This is crazy. If the same journalist had written loads of positive stuff absolutely nobody on here would be questioning her credentials.

I wonder if any journalist from the National has ever written anything remotely critical of the SNP? What'r their take on all the issues that other outlets appear to be voicing concerns about?

Do they just ignore any problems or is it easier for them just to blame Westminster?

That's what it boils down to.

Here's Brian Wilson's take on Sturgeon's 'legacy'. Spot-on IMHO (he's always been an excellent Scottish journalist/writer) but another bête noire for many on here so his opinion will be instantly dimissed:

Sturgeon's failure to create a better Scotland
by Brian Wilson

Nicola Sturgeon always knew how to play the London media like a fiddle. Progressive views, plain speaking, ‘detesting’ the Tories – what was there not to like? Whenever she was in a tight corner at home, a friendly interviewer could be found in the otherwise hated imperial capital to offer an easy ride.
Much of this has been in evidence since she announced her impending resignation. Robert Peston trilled on Twitter: ‘Whether or not you back her ideas and convictions, she has been one of the most important politicians of this generation. Her call for less irrationality and hysteria in politics should be heeded.’
Such panegyrics reflect a general truth that other people’s nationalisms tend to look more attractive from a distance. For those living in Scotland, the reality has been somewhat different. Over the past 20 years, nobody has worked harder than Sturgeon to entrench divisions in pursuit of a single political objective. As she heads for the exit, she has succeeded in dividing but not in delivering.
The crucial point in Sturgeon’s career was after the referendum in 2014. Until then, she had been a loyal lieutenant of Alex Salmond, her mentor and friend. She was the essential attack dog, sharp of tongue and undoubtedly effective in seeing off opponents; an essential partner in a ruthless double act.
While the Nationalists lost the referendum, they won the war on another front. To an unexpected extent, the 45 per cent who voted for independence held together as a voting bloc. This opened up a familiar path for nationalist movements – it guaranteed the party enough votes to win elections without achieving a majority for independence.
Sturgeon arrived as leader with rockstar ratings. She briefly recognised the contradiction inherent in the numbers and said another referendum was off the agenda until there was evidence of consistent 60 per cent support. The immediate task would be to demonstrate competence in government, to encourage confidence in independence.
If she had held to that, and taken her followers with her, Scotland might be a very different place today. But this long-haul strategy was never an option for a leader as combative as Sturgeon. Even before Brexit, her strategy had reverted to demanding another referendum while creating conflict with the Tory government.
After Brexit, the circumstances could scarcely have seemed more propitious for the SNP. Brexit was opposed by most Scottish voters and the Tories were down to 20-odd per cent in the polls. In spite of all that, Sturgeon did not do enough convincing. There has been no serious attempt to address the big economic questions of Scexit and support for independence has not significantly moved.
Instead, division became entrenched and Sturgeon was its symbol. The perception, often well justified, was that everything she did and said was based on a calculation about the constitution, rather than what made sense for Scotland. Acting in Scotland’s interest might mean, perish the thought, working collaboratively with people of a different political persuasion. Sturgeon’s politics revolved around one contrived ‘row’ after another.
This might have been more persuasive to her domestic audience if the mainstays of devolved politics were going well; if the SNP could present impressive evidence of competence as a radical, reforming government in deed as well as word. On these fronts, the opposite was the truth, as has been shown by the steady flow of depressing statistics on educational attainment, the NHS, drug deaths, poverty gaps and all the rest of it.
So Sturgeon remained stuck in the same statistical rut – with enough votes to win elections but no closer to delivering independence. The UK government continued, quite rightly, to refuse another referendum and few outside her core vote seemed to mind. Sturgeon’s attempt to square this circle was, to anyone paying attention, delusional.
Her plan to fix this had three parts. First, claim that the Scottish parliament had the right to call a referendum. Second, go to the Supreme Court in indignation and lose, thereby provoking the outrage of a thwarted people. Third, say that if we can’t do that then we’ll treat the next general election as a ‘de facto referendum’. The last of these, it gradually dawned on even the most faithful courtiers, was a nonsensical dead-end – a factor that might have contributed to Sturgeon’s sudden adieu. A special SNP conference next month to confirm this ‘strategy’ will now probably be abandoned.
What explains Sturgeon’s abrupt departure? The ‘de facto’ wheeze had run its course. Her promotion of gender self-identification without regard for the consequences or public opinion proved a political disaster. There’s the whiff of financial scandal, though that remains in the realms of theory rather than proof.
Sturgeon had a unique opportunity to use the powers of devolution to move Scotland forward on many fronts. Her failure lay in a distinctly limited vision beyond the single cause that got her out of bed in the morning. And even that is stuck exactly where it was when she took over.
She divided Scotland in a way that ran through every branch of Scottish society. Any challenges were closed down and positions of power were given to trusted allies. The trough of public funding bought off huge areas of civic and cultural Scotland. There has been nothing in Sturgeon’s rule to persuade the doubter that independence might create a better nation, at peace with itself.
As a friend with a long background in public service messaged me on Wednesday: ‘She drained every semblance of humour and camaraderie from public and political life. Scotland should be rejoicing to see the back of her.’