Sturgeon Resigns

[J-C]

Some anti SNP folk on here must do nothing but scroll through everything to find anything anti SNP.

[Hiber-nation]

Some anti SNP folk on here must do nothing but scroll through everything to find anything anti SNP.

It's frightening. Completely beyond my comprehension.

[degenerated]

It's frightening. Completely beyond my comprehension.It's almost like it's a job for some.

[James310]

It's almost like it's a job for some.

Who do you think pays these posters to come here? What organisation? You are being serious aren't you?

How much do you think they get paid?

Let's keep this non personal and tell us what you believe?

You can ignore this post which is fine, or tell everyone reading who pays these people and for what purpose?

[Kato]

Who do you think pays these posters to come here? What organisation? You are being serious aren't you?

How much do you think they get paid?

Let's keep this non personal and tell us what you believe?

You can ignore this post which is fine, or tell everyone reading who pays these people and for what purpose?Oooo

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[James310]

Oooo

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I am just interested as the claim people are paid here has been made before, it would be good to understand who is paying them. Is it Mi5 or some kind of secret Army division set up by Alastair Jack that meets in secret bunkers under Holyrood Palace on every second Thursday with the password being....? I have said too much now.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230217/62a7f33a0eab516277a6d6ae4b6e967e.jpg

How can this possibly be???? Have they not read this thread???[emoji23]


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[CropleyWasGod]

I am just interested as the claim people are paid here has been made before, it would be good to understand who is paying them. Is it Mi5 or some kind of secret Army division set up by Alastair Jack that meets in secret bunkers under Holyrood Palace on every second Thursday with the password being....? I have said too much now.

The post was "it's almost like...". 😀

And it's Barnton Quarry.

[James310]

The post was "it's almost like...". 😀

And it's Barnton Quarry.

Lol, you fell for the fake intelligence I see.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230217/62a7f33a0eab516277a6d6ae4b6e967e.jpg

How can this possibly be???? Have they not read this thread???[emoji23]


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Is this one to be believed but the one predicting labour to get more seats than snp not? Or both believed or both not

[grunt]

As a friend with a long background in public service messaged me on Wednesday: ‘She drained every semblance of humour and camaraderie from public and political life. Scotland should be rejoicing to see the back of her.’
I wonder what people make of Brian Wilson's final sentence. It doesn't chime with anyone that I know who knows her or has seen her at work. So I just question why he thought it was appropriate to add this last insult. And he attributes it to an unidentified "friend". Brian Wilson - a sad and bitter man to the very last word.

[Ozyhibby]

Is this one to be believed but the one predicting labour to get more seats than snp not? Or both believed or both not

I haven’t commented on the other claim? In fact I don’t think I’ve seen it?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230217/f6c7a32a96c9e89cc6ced427b43c7a57.jpg
The data for what I posted comes from a very reputable source though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I haven’t commented on the other claim? In fact I don’t think I’ve seen it?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230217/f6c7a32a96c9e89cc6ced427b43c7a57.jpg
The data for what I posted comes from a very reputable source though.


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The other was from you gov polling. I don't personally think it means anything but as election a few years away

[Hiber-nation]

I wonder what people make of Brian Wilson's final sentence. It doesn't chime with anyone that I know who knows her or has seen her at work. So I just question why he thought it was appropriate to add this last insult. And he attributes it to an unidentified "friend". Brian Wilson - a sad and bitter man to the very last word.

I know an ex Labour Party member and these were exactly the words she used to describe Wilson who she despised.

[CropleyWasGod]

Lol, you fell for the fake intelligence I see.

Nope. We were all there. We wondered what happened to you 😀

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230217/083a96a4908ef89747aa0d3522931d8d.jpg


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[WhileTheChief..]

That's what it boils down to.

Here's Brian Wilson's take on Sturgeon's 'legacy'. Spot-on IMHO (he's always been an excellent Scottish journalist/writer) but another bête noire for many on here so his opinion will be instantly dimissed:

Sturgeon's failure to create a better Scotland
by Brian Wilson

Nicola Sturgeon always knew how to play the London media like a fiddle. Progressive views, plain speaking, ‘detesting’ the Tories – what was there not to like? Whenever she was in a tight corner at home, a friendly interviewer could be found in the otherwise hated imperial capital to offer an easy ride.
Much of this has been in evidence since she announced her impending resignation. Robert Peston trilled on Twitter: ‘Whether or not you back her ideas and convictions, she has been one of the most important politicians of this generation. Her call for less irrationality and hysteria in politics should be heeded.’
Such panegyrics reflect a general truth that other people’s nationalisms tend to look more attractive from a distance. For those living in Scotland, the reality has been somewhat different. Over the past 20 years, nobody has worked harder than Sturgeon to entrench divisions in pursuit of a single political objective. As she heads for the exit, she has succeeded in dividing but not in delivering.
The crucial point in Sturgeon’s career was after the referendum in 2014. Until then, she had been a loyal lieutenant of Alex Salmond, her mentor and friend. She was the essential attack dog, sharp of tongue and undoubtedly effective in seeing off opponents; an essential partner in a ruthless double act.
While the Nationalists lost the referendum, they won the war on another front. To an unexpected extent, the 45 per cent who voted for independence held together as a voting bloc. This opened up a familiar path for nationalist movements – it guaranteed the party enough votes to win elections without achieving a majority for independence.
Sturgeon arrived as leader with rockstar ratings. She briefly recognised the contradiction inherent in the numbers and said another referendum was off the agenda until there was evidence of consistent 60 per cent support. The immediate task would be to demonstrate competence in government, to encourage confidence in independence.
If she had held to that, and taken her followers with her, Scotland might be a very different place today. But this long-haul strategy was never an option for a leader as combative as Sturgeon. Even before Brexit, her strategy had reverted to demanding another referendum while creating conflict with the Tory government.
After Brexit, the circumstances could scarcely have seemed more propitious for the SNP. Brexit was opposed by most Scottish voters and the Tories were down to 20-odd per cent in the polls. In spite of all that, Sturgeon did not do enough convincing. There has been no serious attempt to address the big economic questions of Scexit and support for independence has not significantly moved.
Instead, division became entrenched and Sturgeon was its symbol. The perception, often well justified, was that everything she did and said was based on a calculation about the constitution, rather than what made sense for Scotland. Acting in Scotland’s interest might mean, perish the thought, working collaboratively with people of a different political persuasion. Sturgeon’s politics revolved around one contrived ‘row’ after another.
This might have been more persuasive to her domestic audience if the mainstays of devolved politics were going well; if the SNP could present impressive evidence of competence as a radical, reforming government in deed as well as word. On these fronts, the opposite was the truth, as has been shown by the steady flow of depressing statistics on educational attainment, the NHS, drug deaths, poverty gaps and all the rest of it.
So Sturgeon remained stuck in the same statistical rut – with enough votes to win elections but no closer to delivering independence. The UK government continued, quite rightly, to refuse another referendum and few outside her core vote seemed to mind. Sturgeon’s attempt to square this circle was, to anyone paying attention, delusional.
Her plan to fix this had three parts. First, claim that the Scottish parliament had the right to call a referendum. Second, go to the Supreme Court in indignation and lose, thereby provoking the outrage of a thwarted people. Third, say that if we can’t do that then we’ll treat the next general election as a ‘de facto referendum’. The last of these, it gradually dawned on even the most faithful courtiers, was a nonsensical dead-end – a factor that might have contributed to Sturgeon’s sudden adieu. A special SNP conference next month to confirm this ‘strategy’ will now probably be abandoned.
What explains Sturgeon’s abrupt departure? The ‘de facto’ wheeze had run its course. Her promotion of gender self-identification without regard for the consequences or public opinion proved a political disaster. There’s the whiff of financial scandal, though that remains in the realms of theory rather than proof.
Sturgeon had a unique opportunity to use the powers of devolution to move Scotland forward on many fronts. Her failure lay in a distinctly limited vision beyond the single cause that got her out of bed in the morning. And even that is stuck exactly where it was when she took over.
She divided Scotland in a way that ran through every branch of Scottish society. Any challenges were closed down and positions of power were given to trusted allies. The trough of public funding bought off huge areas of civic and cultural Scotland. There has been nothing in Sturgeon’s rule to persuade the doubter that independence might create a better nation, at peace with itself.
As a friend with a long background in public service messaged me on Wednesday: ‘She drained every semblance of humour and camaraderie from public and political life. Scotland should be rejoicing to see the back of her.’



A pretty damning verdict.

It's actually quite exciting to think we might have someone in charge soon who does things differently. If it freshens things up in Holyrood for a couple of years before the next election, that's got to be a good thing.

[Kato]

A pretty damning verdict.

It is. From Brian Wilson as well who is so open minded to everything the SNP has done in the past. [emoji849]

The Labour guy who would damn the country to perpetual Tory rule if it meant getting rid of the SNP

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[James310]

It is. From Brian Wilson as well who is so open minded to everything the SNP has done in the past. [emoji849]

The Labour guy who would damn the country to perpetual Tory rule if it meant getting rid of the SNP

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Brian is actually my boss.

[Stairway 2 7]

Cherry says a rethink needed also her and Ash Regan said today Westminster mps should be able to become first minister

@joannaccherry
·
A serious wake up call for
@theSNP
leadership hopefuls. On today’s Westminster poll we would lose every seat we hold in the central belt except mine. As I said earlier the time for shooting the messenger is over. We need a radical rethink

[Stairway 2 7]

Sevanta poll not as bad as yougov for snp


British Electoral Politics
@electpoliticsuk
·
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 42% (-1)
LAB: 32% (+2)
CON: 17% (-2)
LDM: 6% (=)

Via
@Savanta_UK
, On 15-17 February,
Changes w/ 16-21 December.

[He's here!]

I wonder what people make of Brian Wilson's final sentence. It doesn't chime with anyone that I know who knows her or has seen her at work. So I just question why he thought it was appropriate to add this last insult. And he attributes it to an unidentified "friend". Brian Wilson - a sad and bitter man to the very last word.

I doubt someone with a contact book as extensive as Wilson's would be short of a bona fide quote.

Personally I've always had a lot of time for him and while our paths haven't crossed in years I don't think anyone who met him back in the day would describe him as sad or bitter. I'm a big fan of his work outwith politics and loved what he did with the West Highland Free Press, while more recently he's been integral to the regeneration of the Harris Tweed industry. He was also an excellent football writer for the Guardian.

I think there's truth in the the description of Sturgeon's tenure as joyless. There was an inevitability about that I guess due to the way the relentless independence debate has sucked the life out of Scottish politics.

[grunt]

I think there's truth in the the description of Sturgeon's tenure as joyless. Have you ever met her? Spoken to her? She's so far from joyless I struggle to understand either you or Brian Wilson.

But Brian Wilson has form for this. He's hated her for years.

[Kato]

Brian is actually my boss.Commiserations.

Does he still have the bruises from being bumped off the Labour Party in Scotland gravy train?

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[James310]

Commiserations.

Does he still have the bruises from being bumped off the Labour Party in Scotland gravy train?

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Indeed, he is coaching the SNP politicians about what's to come next. Been there done it he said.

[Kato]

Indeed, he is coaching the SNP politicians about what's to come next. Been there done it he said.He's the maestro.

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[Ozyhibby]

Cherry says a rethink needed also her and Ash Regan said today Westminster mps should be able to become first minister

@joannaccherry
·
A serious wake up call for
@theSNP
leadership hopefuls. On today’s Westminster poll we would lose every seat we hold in the central belt except mine. As I said earlier the time for shooting the messenger is over. We need a radical rethink

She’s howling at the moon a bit now. Both her and Regan want non members to have a vote. Absolute mental.


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[James310]

She’s howling at the moon a bit now. Both her and Regan want non members to have a vote. Absolute mental.


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No they aren't.

https://twitter.com/AshtenRegan/status/1626114348904075267?t=xsgNjMpqa0OphBdciINdkA&s=19

She is asking old members to rejoin and vote.

But that would be interesting opening up the vote for non members. Humza gets my vote.

[James310]

Cherry says a rethink needed also her and Ash Regan said today Westminster mps should be able to become first minister

@joannaccherry
·
A serious wake up call for
@theSNP
leadership hopefuls. On today’s Westminster poll we would lose every seat we hold in the central belt except mine. As I said earlier the time for shooting the messenger is over. We need a radical rethink

Isn't that impossible for a Westminster MP to be FM? They need to be a member of the Scottish Parliament. They could have seats in both Holyrood and Westminster and be FM but not only Westminster. I doubt she said that.

[Stairway 2 7]

Isn't that impossible for a Westminster MP to be FM? They need to be a member of the Scottish Parliament. They could have seats in both Holyrood and Westminster and be FM but not only Westminster. I doubt she said that.

It's the fact snp bars their mps from standing in Holyrood elections so can't become FM due to that

[Callum_62]

Sevanta poll not as bad as yougov for snp


British Electoral Politics
@electpoliticsuk
·
Westminster Voting Intention (Scotland):

SNP: 42% (-1)
LAB: 32% (+2)
CON: 17% (-2)
LDM: 6% (=)

Via
@Savanta_UK
, On 15-17 February,
Changes w/ 16-21 December.Not as bad is a pretty big understatement

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1626665794477207552?t=92AkdJtDl079fTTJ8nRWJw&s=19

Edit - apologies, different countries here [emoji6]

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[Stairway 2 7]

Not as bad is a pretty big understatement

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1626665794477207552?t=92AkdJtDl079fTTJ8nRWJw&s=19

Edit - apologies, different countries here [emoji6]

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Snp losing 4 seats from last time greens gaining 8.

Both this and the yougov one that had labour ahead are nonsense in my opinion though. Can't accurately extrapolate seats from such small polls.

[Moulin Yarns]

Brian is actually my boss.

😂😂😂 So that's who pays you!!

[He's here!]

Have you ever met her? Spoken to her? She's so far from joyless I struggle to understand either you or Brian Wilson.

But Brian Wilson has form for this. He's hated her for years.

I've been to two dinners where she's been a speaker, one a charity event and one a business one, and I couldn't fault her. Definitely a bit less 'brisk' outwith the political arena. I wasn't really talking about her own personal 'joylessness' though (although she's not a natural wit, with the way she has to tee up every light-hearted comment with a wee fake laugh quite irritating), more the suffocating, divisive shadow her tenure has cast over the country from a political point of view. I'm more than willing to believe that if you've met her personally she will be perfectly cheery company.

I went to a charity Burns Supper not long after being at the Sturgeon dinner incidentally and Ruth Davidson was doing the reply from the lassies. She was terrific and very funny, definitely less 'buttoned-up' than Sturgeon. But then I guess it's probably harder to switch off from the day job when you're the FM.

[Glory Lurker]

She’s howling at the moon a bit now. Both her and Regan want non members to have a vote. Absolute mental.


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Cheerio to both of them.

[James310]

😂😂😂 So that's who pays you!!

But who pays him?

[147lothian]

A pretty damning verdict.

It's actually quite exciting to think we might have someone in charge soon who does things differently. If it freshens things up in Holyrood for a couple of years before the next election, that's got to be a good thing.

Brian Wilson's verdict is spot on. The most recent YouGov poll shows that prior to Nicola Sturgeon's resignation the SNP's lead over Labour was just 2% that's how people intended to vote in a general election. It shows how unpopular Nicola Sturgeon had become.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/poll-says-labour-just-two-123636269.html

[hibsbollah]

Brian Wilson's verdict is spot on. The most recent YouGov poll shows that prior to Nicola Sturgeon's resignation the SNP's lead over Labour was just 2% that's how people intended to vote in a general election. It shows how unpopular Nicola Sturgeon had become.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/poll-says-labour-just-two-123636269.html

When you want to make a point, you go to the poll that makes your point best. The natural poll to answer the question is of course, her approval ratings, which are far in advance of other political figures in the UK. She’s still very popular in relative terms. It is accurate to say she was becoming LESS popular but that’s not the same thing.

[Stairway 2 7]

She was polarised a very large number liked her but a very large number disliked her, that's no good for independence where you need to be quite neutral. 40% each way are probably decided its all about capturing the middle

There was a clear and sudden drop towards no this year, as I think last nights poll was the 4th or 5th with a no lead.

No voters think Sturgeon going is a win, but I think someone with no baggage is what is needed to boost yes. For that reason I'm happy lots of voters don't know the candidates. It's also why among other reasons Yousaf and Swinney can't win

[Ozyhibby]

When you want to make a point, you go to the poll that makes your point best. The natural poll to answer the question is of course, her approval ratings, which are far in advance of other political figures in the UK. She’s still very popular in relative terms. It is accurate to say she was becoming LESS popular but that’s not the same thing.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230218/cd67bb6c73a9db1d1012bdede25fd6ce.jpg

59% say she made Scotland a better place. That’s a successful term in office whichever way you look at it. She retires on her own term still the most popular leader of any political party anywhere in the UK. I doubt any leader has left office with higher ratings anywhere in the UK?
Attempt to paint it as failure are quite sad really and reflect more on those doing so.
NS is now yesterday’s news anyway. There will be someone else to hate on soon enough. We might make it easier again by selecting another woman.[emoji6]


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[hibsbollah]

She was polarised a very large number liked her but a very large number disliked her, that's no good for independence where you need to be quite neutral. 40% each way are probably decided its all about capturing the middle

There was a clear and sudden drop towards no this year, as I think last nights poll was the 4th or 5th with a no lead.

No voters think Sturgeon going is a win, but I think someone with no baggage is what is needed to boost yes. For that reason I'm happy lots of voters don't know the candidates. It's also why among other reasons Yousaf and Swinney can't win

I don’t think she was ‘polarising’, or polarised opinion more than is inevitable when living through a time when everything is more factional than it used to be. I’m hearing it a lot in the media but I don’t think the polling really bears this out. And anecdotally a lot of people were quite neutral or nuanced on her as an individual, the numbers of No voters who think Scotland did well under her stewardship are higher than you’d expect, and significant numbers of Yes voters had doubts about her leadership.

I don’t really have a dog in this race but I think the next leader is likely to be less unifying and more polarising.

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t think she was ‘polarising’, or polarised opinion more than is inevitable when living through a time when everything is more factional than it used to be. I’m hearing it a lot in the media but I don’t think the polling really bears this out. And anecdotally a lot of people were quite neutral or nuanced on her as an individual, the numbers of No voters who think Scotland did well under her stewardship are higher than you’d expect, and significant numbers of Yes voters had doubts about her leadership.

I don’t really have a dog in this race but I think the next leader is likely to be less unifying and more polarising.

She was polarising in that people liked her but the unionist press and establishment hated her.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t think she was ‘polarising’, or polarised opinion more than is inevitable when living through a time when everything is more factional than it used to be. I’m hearing it a lot in the media but I don’t think the polling really bears this out. And anecdotally a lot of people were quite neutral or nuanced on her as an individual, the numbers of No voters who think Scotland did well under her stewardship are higher than you’d expect, and significant numbers of Yes voters had doubts about her leadership.

I don’t really have a dog in this race but I think the next leader is likely to be less unifying and more polarising.
42% said she should resign and 45% said she should stay. Not sure how anyone could say she didn't split opinion with strong views on each side. That isn't her fault the nature of the independence debate. But whilst a majority thought she did a great job there was a sizable amount that really disliked her

https://news.stv.tv/politics/four-in-10-scots-think-sturgeon-should-stand-down-poll-finds

[hibsbollah]

She was polarising in that people liked her but the unionist press and establishment hated her.


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The press are going to switch into attack mode when their interests are threatened, it doesn’t matter who it is and none of it is a genuine reflection of the journalists POV. It comes from the culture and the editorial policy. The lesson here is never assume that changing the face at the top of the party will change the way the UK press treats you, you have to change your policies as well.

[hibsbollah]

42% said she should resign and 45% said she should stay. Not sure how anyone could say she didn't split opinion with strong views on each side. That isn't her fault the nature of the independence debate. But whilst a majority thought she did a great job there was a sizable amount that really disliked her

https://news.stv.tv/politics/four-in-10-scots-think-sturgeon-should-stand-down-poll-finds

That stat shows that opinion is divided. That’s not the same thing as something or someone is polarising.

[Ozyhibby]

The press are going to switch into attack mode when their interests are threatened, it doesn’t matter who it is and none of it is a genuine reflection of the journalists POV. It comes from the culture and the editorial policy. The lesson here is never assume that changing the face at the top of the party will change the way the UK press treats you, you have to change your policies as well.

Given her popularity though, it shows the declining influence of the mainstream press these days. To have them churn out article after article, day after day denouncing her the way they did and still have 59% of Scots think she did a great job is a massive change from how it would have went 20 years ago.


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[Stairway 2 7]

That stat shows that opinion is divided. That’s not the same thing as something or someone is polarising.

Well it is. The nation split into a large number of people thinking she's doing a great job and another huge group at the opposite end wanting her to get the boot. Covid, GRA, strikes she had to make decisions that were always going to split people

[Just Alf]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230218/cd67bb6c73a9db1d1012bdede25fd6ce.jpg

59% say she made Scotland a better place. That’s a successful term in office whichever way you look at it. She retires on her own term still the most popular leader of any political party anywhere in the UK. I doubt any leader has left office with higher ratings anywhere in the UK?
Attempt to paint it as failure are quite sad really and reflect more on those doing so.
NS is now yesterday’s news anyway. There will be someone else to hate on soon enough. We might make it easier again by selecting another woman.[emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAs well as reflecting on those that refuse to see any good at all in her time as FM it perfectly proves her point that many attack the personalities rather than the policies themselves.... even if deep down they might actually agree with the odd one.

Classic SNP (or on occasion Tory) Bad!

[Ozyhibby]

Well it is. The nation split into a large number of people thinking she's doing a great job and another huge group at the opposite end wanting her to get the boot. Covid, GRA, strikes she had to make decisions that were always going to split people

60-40 is a decent split in your favour over an 8 year term though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Given her popularity though, it shows the declining influence of the mainstream press these days. To have them churn out article after article, day after day denouncing her the way they did and still have 59% of Scots think she did a great job is a massive change from how it would have went 20 years ago.


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Mainstream media is getting less powerful each year, pretty much no-one younger reads a paper and most people I know barely watch live TV anymore.

It obviously wasn't working for them as yes grew a decent lead at the end of last year. That along with people not turning right anymore means independence is inevitable I think

[Stairway 2 7]

60-40 is a decent split in your favour over an 8 year term though.


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Definitely. She undoubtedly was popular and most would say did a good job in hard circumstances

[degenerated]

42% said she should resign and 45% said she should stay. Not sure how anyone could say she didn't split opinion with strong views on each side. That isn't her fault the nature of the independence debate. But whilst a majority thought she did a great job there was a sizable amount that really disliked her

https://news.stv.tv/politics/four-in-10-scots-think-sturgeon-should-stand-down-poll-findsHardly a surprise given the 50/50 split in Scotland, in fact I'd say that's not a bad poll as it suggests 8% of unionists thought she shouldn't :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Well it is. The nation split into a large number of people thinking she's doing a great job and another huge group at the opposite end wanting her to get the boot. Covid, GRA, strikes she had to make decisions that were always going to split people

The stat doesn’t show that at all. A more accurate breakdown of views might show the majority of those on both sides thought she was doing either a)broadly OK, not great, but think she should stay, and b) broadly not great, but mediocre, and thought she should go. And also some c)s,Would vote according to Party in all cases anyway regardless of their actual views on the question.

[WhileTheChief..]

She was polarising in that people liked her but the unionist press and establishment hated her.


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Is the Unionist press one entity?

How did so many people with the same take on Indy all end up working in the same place?

Some of these people working in the media will have been doing so for decades with absolutely no axe to grind against the SNP or NS. Why would they suddenly form some sort of cabal?

It doesn't make sense. There are hundreds of journalists writing for dozens of outlets all with their own individual views. If the majority of them are against Indy, that's because it's how they feel about it. Not because they're part of Better Together or any imaginary group.

Establishment? NS and the Scottish Gov are the establishment, and have been for years!

[Smartie]

Well it is. The nation split into a large number of people thinking she's doing a great job and another huge group at the opposite end wanting her to get the boot. Covid, GRA, strikes she had to make decisions that were always going to split people

There were quite few people who thought she was doing a good job AND wanted her to get the boot because what she did was not in their interests.

She was a formidable opponent to unionism and has implemented some policies that have seen more progressive taxation to help poor Scottish children. Sad as it is, these aren’t universally popular policies and so for those who bleed union jacks when they’re cut open and believe that you should look after your own first / be able to keep a bit more of your hard earned then her departure is great news.

In advance of the next Edinburgh derby I’d rather someone who was doing a great job for Hearts was to be missing than someone who was doing a terrible job.

[marinello59]

Establishment? NS and the Scottish Gov are the establishment, and have been for years!

:agree:

[Stairway 2 7]

One thing though if SNP's raison d'etre was she a success. If I offered SNP supporters the choice of the next leader having 8 years in power and ending with a really positive approval rating, the caveat is independence polls would be similar level to now would they take it

[grunt]

It doesn't make sense. There are hundreds of journalists writing for dozens of outlets all with their own individual views. If the majority of them are against Indy, that's because it's how they feel about it. Not because they're part of Better Together or any imaginary group.One hundred billion flies can't be wrong.


Establishment? NS and the Scottish Gov are the establishment, and have been for years!
Not from a UK perspective. Most of the UK mainstream media view Scotland as somewhere to go and shoot things, and consider our Parliament to be a glorified town hall. We've even had unionists on here use those words. The SNP are absolutely anti-establishment from a Westminster viewpoint.

[Smartie]

Is the Unionist press one entity?

How did so many people with the same take on Indy all end up working in the same place?

Some of these people working in the media will have been doing so for decades with absolutely no axe to grind against the SNP or NS. Why would they suddenly form some sort of cabal?

It doesn't make sense. There are hundreds of journalists writing for dozens of outlets all with their own individual views. If the majority of them are against Indy, that's because it's how they feel about it. Not because they're part of Better Together or any imaginary group.

Establishment? NS and the Scottish Gov are the establishment, and have been for years!

I refuse to believe you don’t get this.

A certain demographic still read newspapers. That demographic has overwhelmingly favour dependence / the union. If the media companies want to squeeze any more cash out of the corpse of newspaper journalism, they need to print stuff that people will buy and read.

The National was launched in the aftermath of the last referendum when someone spotted a business opportunity where nearly 50% of the population voted in favour of independence but that there wasn’t one pro-independence publication.

Media moguls and their organisations will all have their own agendas but generally they will be about power and profit for themselves. That will naturally lead most of them to be anti-independence.

It’s not some sort of cabal though and I know that they think long and hard about their position. I say that as someone whose sibling toured around Scotland with Rupert Murdoch in the lead up to the 2014 referendum as they decided on the editorial line one of Scotland’s biggest papers should take. It was certainly no foregone conclusion.

[Santa Cruz]

Hardly a surprise given the 50/50 split in Scotland, in fact I'd say that's not a bad poll as it suggests 8% of unionists thought she shouldn't :greengrin

Probably because the names currently getting slung into the hat appeared a worse option. Looking at the poll S27 posted, it's striking that more people have heard of the Scottish Labour and Tory Leaders than the current Finance Sec who's favourite to become FM. Same pollsters reckon although they've never heard of KF she is less likely to do a bad job than AS. :confused:

[Smartie]

Probably because the names currently getting slung into the hat appeared a worse option. Looking at the poll S27 posted, it's striking that more people have heard of the Scottish Labour and Tory Leaders than the current Finance Sec who's favourite to become FM. Same pollsters reckon although they've never heard of KF she is less likely to do a bad job than AS. :confused:

I find it a bit mad that so many people can offer opinions other than “don’t know” on so many of these characters, unless everyone pays much, much closer attention than I do.

That tweet about a poll on Twitter be of the other threads where a fair number opinions are offered on someone who doesn’t even exist might explain it though.

[WhileTheChief..]

I refuse to believe you don’t get this.

A certain demographic still read newspapers. That demographic has overwhelmingly favour dependence / the union. If the media companies want to squeeze any more cash out of the corpse of newspaper journalism, they need to print stuff that people will buy and read.

The National was launched in the aftermath of the last referendum when someone spotted a business opportunity where nearly 50% of the population voted in favour of independence but that there wasn’t one pro-independence publication.

Media moguls and their organisations will all have their own agendas but generally they will be about power and profit for themselves. That will naturally lead most of them to be anti-independence.

It’s not some sort of cabal though and I know that they think long and hard about their position. I say that as someone whose sibling toured around Scotland with Rupert Murdoch in the lead up to the 2014 referendum as they decided on the editorial line one of Scotland’s biggest papers should take. It was certainly no foregone conclusion.

You're first line is ridiculous, of course they're my thoughts!

So why didn't any of the main papers decide to cater for the 50% or so in favour of Indy if what you say is true? They missed a trick and could have made a fortune.

[James310]

You're first line is ridiculous, of course they're my thoughts!

So why didn't any of the main papers decide to cater for the 50% or so in favour of Indy if what you say is true? They missed a trick and could have made a fortune.

If only you thought and saw what everyone else saw you would soon change your mind. 😉

[Smartie]

You're first line is ridiculous, of course they're my thoughts!

So why didn't any of the main papers decide to cater for the 50% or so in favour of Indy if what you say is true? They missed a trick and could have made a fortune.

I just don’t think there’s much of a fortune to be made selling papers to people who believe in independence.

The market for anti- Jimmy Krankie, anti-woke, anti-independence, anti-Scotland stuff is much, much larger.

[WhileTheChief..]

I just don’t think there’s much of a fortune to be made selling papers to people who believe in independence.

The market for anti- Jimmy Krankie, anti-woke, anti-independence, anti-Scotland stuff is much, much larger.

When the country is split 50/50 I think it's fair to suggest the media could pander to either side and sell the sane number of papers.

Why would No voters be more inclined to buy a paper than a Yes voter? :confused:

[Smartie]

When the country is split 50/50 I think it's fair to suggest the media could pander to either side and sell the sane number of papers.

Why would No voters be more inclined to buy a paper than a Yes voter? :confused:

Demographics and news buying habits.

No voters are more likely to be older and to buy newspapers. Yes voters are more likely to be younger and to not buy newspapers.

There WAS a discrepancy but only so much that it needed corrected by one newspaper. One that, as a middle aged yes voter I have never bought one copy of or subscribed to.

[Stairway 2 7]

Think the biggest selling paper is the daily record in Scotland. Something like 60,000 sold a day and dropping over 10% per year. Soon won't be viable as a print newspaper surely

[J-C]

She was polarised a very large number liked her but a very large number disliked her, that's no good for independence where you need to be quite neutral. 40% each way are probably decided its all about capturing the middle

There was a clear and sudden drop towards no this year, as I think last nights poll was the 4th or 5th with a no lead.

No voters think Sturgeon going is a win, but I think someone with no baggage is what is needed to boost yes. For that reason I'm happy lots of voters don't know the candidates. It's also why among other reasons Yousaf and Swinney can't win
A lot of this happened in 2014, I knew many people who voted no purely because they didn't like Salmond, even when I explained the vote wasn't for him they still voted no.

[danhibees1875]

She was polarising in that people liked her but the unionist press and establishment hated her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"People" didn't universally like her, I'm sure you know that.

I'd argue "she" wasn't polarising herself, the ideology that her party stands for is though, of which she was the leader.

[Skol]

"People" didn't universally like her, I'm sure you know that.

I'd argue "she" wasn't polarising herself, the ideology that her party stands for is though, of which she was the leader.

She was polarising and did nothing to build a consensus. Two recent comments where she detests tories and womens views are not valid are good examples. That said the independence movement will miss her.

[grunt]

She was polarising and did nothing to build a consensus. Two recent comments where she detests tories and womens views are not valid are good examples. That said the independence movement will miss her.
Is that what she actually said, or what was reported?

[grunt]

If that’s the case then he should really publish what he has got and put an onus on the BBC to respond.

As I said, I can easily understand why senior figures in the SNP would have been reluctant to have someone on that show at that time.
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1626909996456767489?s=20


I can confirm that I was due to be the SNP guest on bbcqt on Thursday. I pulled out early in the week having lost my voice & informed SNP Media immediately. Very poor show if bbcqt refused to take another SNP parliamentarian.

[He's here!]

Think the biggest selling paper is the daily record in Scotland. Something like 60,000 sold a day and dropping over 10% per year. Soon won't be viable as a print newspaper surely

Yep, the Record used to have a circulation of close to half a million.

The most remarkable seller was once the Sunday Post, which I'm pretty sure was in the Guinness Book of Records. I think its per capita readership was the biggest in the world, covering something like 90% of the entire adult population of Scotland. With Oor Wullie and the Broons included the readership among children would also have been very high.

[He's here!]

Is that what she actually said, or what was reported?

It's what she actually said (though I don't really get what the difference is between being said and reported. Would reporters make up these quotes?):

“We should focus on the real threats to women, not the threats that, while I appreciate that some of these views are very sincerely held, in my view, are not valid.”

"I detest the Tories and everything they stand for."

[Since90+2]

It's what she actually said (though I don't really get what the difference is between being said and reported. Would reporters make up these quotes?):

“We should focus on the real threats to women, not the threats that, while I appreciate that some of these views are very sincerely held, in my view, are not valid.”

"I detest the Tories and everything they stand for."

Thanks for showing that she said she detested the Tories and not Tory voters as some have tried to portray. That's a small but very important distinction.

[James310]

Thanks for showing that she said she detested the Tories and not Tory voters as some have tried to portray. That's a small but very important distinction.

Thats your interpretation only though, someone else may read that as she detests all Tories.

[Smartie]

Yep, the Record used to have a circulation of close to half a million.

The most remarkable seller was once the Sunday Post, which I'm pretty sure was in the Guinness Book of Records. I think its per capita readership was the biggest in the world, covering something like 90% of the entire adult population of Scotland. With Oor Wullie and the Broons included the readership among children would also have been very high.

My grandad was a newsagent.

The amount of business that a pile of Sporting Posts being dropped into a Kinglassie newsagent on a Saturday evening that half a village would pop in to pick up along with a few other odds and ends could generate was quite staggering.

And as you say - the readership the Sunday Post enjoyed was crazy.

It’s been a bit mad living through the massive changes in that industry.

[Since90+2]

Thats your interpretation only though, someone else may read that as she detests all Tories.

It's not open to interpretation. It's literally black and white.

She said the Tories, not Tory voters.

If you are looking to be offended, I'm sure you can find offence in it, if that's what you mean.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's what she actually said (though I don't really get what the difference is between being said and reported. Would reporters make up these quotes?):

“We should focus on the real threats to women, not the threats that, while I appreciate that some of these views are very sincerely held, in my view, are not valid.”

"I detest the Tories and everything they stand for."

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.” She later qualified her remarks, saying: “I was talking about Tory party policy… I was not talking about individuals, I was not talking about people who vote for the Conservative Party.”

[James310]

It's not open to interpretation. It's literally black and white.

She said the Tories, not Tory voters.

If you are looking to be offended, I'm sure you can find offence in it, if that's what you mean.

Again your opinion, doesn't make it fact. Lots of people saw it very differently, you can't tell them what they are think and believe is wrong if that's what they think and believe.

[Since90+2]

Again your opinion, doesn't make it fact. Lots of people saw it very differently, you can't tell them what they are think and believe is wrong if that's what they think and believe.

People are also free to think and believe the earth is flat.

Doesn't mean they aren't idiots and wrong.

[He's here!]

"People" didn't universally like her, I'm sure you know that.

I'd argue "she" wasn't polarising herself, the ideology that her party stands for is though, of which she was the leader.

I think that's a fair point, although for me it became almost impossible to separate the two by the end. She herself admitted that she had become such a polarising figure that pretty much every issue was seen through the prism of what people thought about her.

From my own viewpoint I initially found her a more relatable, less abrasive personality than the bombastic Salmond. However, eight years of dangling the independence carrot in front of the faithful (and thus evading much of the flak she deserved for the mediocrity of her domestic agenda) steadily drained my tolerance and by the end I couldn't stand even listening to her. She suffocated Scottish politics IMHO and while I didn't quite crack open the champagne to celebrate her downfall I'm certainly glad to see the back of her.

[James310]

People are also free to think and believe the earth is flat. Doesn't mean they aren't idiots and wrong.

So everyone who thought differently is an idiot and wrong. I see things aren't really going to change much are they. If people just saw it the same way you saw it then everyone would agree.

[He's here!]

Thanks for showing that she said she detested the Tories and not Tory voters as some have tried to portray. That's a small but very important distinction.

I've lifted the quotes verbatim. I think she rowed back on the Tory one, but only afterwards.

[Since90+2]

So everyone who thought differently is an idiot and wrong. I see things aren't really going to change much are they. If people just saw it the same way you saw it then everyone would agree.

No, here you go again, waffling. My post was in reference to people who think the earth is flat, they are wrong and idiots. Not that everyone who has a different opinion to me is an idiot.

I suppose if you wanted to be offended by my post , you could find a way to be. I see a recurring theme here.

[Since90+2]

I've lifted the quotes verbatim. I think she rowed back on the Tory one, but only afterwards.

I know you did. She said Tories, not Tory voters.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Skol]

I know you did. She said Tories, not Tory voters.

Thanks for clarifying.

I would wager a good number of Tory voters see themselves as Tories. This seems an odd argument to pick.

[He's here!]

My grandad was a newsagent.

The amount of business that a pile of Sporting Posts being dropped into a Kinglassie newsagent on a Saturday evening that half a village would pop in to pick up along with a few other odds and ends could generate was quite staggering.

And as you say - the readership the Sunday Post enjoyed was crazy.

It’s been a bit mad living through the massive changes in that industry.

The Pink was another that would see queues outside the newsagents every Saturday night. I used to love that, buying a copy for my dad when I was a kid and when I was older buying a copy to read in the pub after the match. A group of us would literally gather round while one read out the Hibs report.

When my dad was a kid there were actually two Saturday evening sports papers in Edinburgh, the Pink and the Green. The Pink was an offshoot of the Evening News and the Green an offshoot of the now defunct Evening Dispatch. My dad always opted for the Green. In fact, now I come to think of it I'm sure he said there even used to be a half-time edition of these papers which was rushed out to ER or Tynecastle and circulated among the crowd to read during the second half!!

[archie]

I know you did. She said Tories, not Tory voters.

Thanks for clarifying.Which is why she had to clarify the point.

[Santa Cruz]

I would wager a good number of Tory voters see themselves as Tories. This seems an odd argument to pick.

Good summary here.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/nicola-sturgeons-i-detest-the-tories-remark-may-set-a-bitter-tone-for-independence-push-alastair-stewart-3880392

[Moulin Yarns]

I've lifted the quotes verbatim. I think she rowed back on the Tory one, but only afterwards.

That's not strictly true.

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.” She later qualified her remarks, saying: “I was talking about Tory party policy… I was not talking about individuals, I was not talking about people who vote for the Conservative Party.”

[He's here!]

That's not strictly true.

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.” She later qualified her remarks, saying: “I was talking about Tory party policy… I was not talking about individuals, I was not talking about people who vote for the Conservative Party.”

What's the difference between later and afterwards? She didn't row back on the remarks during the Kuenssberg interview, only when questioned about them in another interview.

It's all a bit of nit pick anyway. I was just pointing out to another poster that yes, she did actually say those things.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yep, the Record used to have a circulation of close to half a million.

The most remarkable seller was once the Sunday Post, which I'm pretty sure was in the Guinness Book of Records. I think its per capita readership was the biggest in the world, covering something like 90% of the entire adult population of Scotland. With Oor Wullie and the Broons included the readership among children would also have been very high.

A tangent but they are amazing stats, some change in a short space of time

[Ozyhibby]

A tangent but they are amazing stats, some change in a short space of time

Most newspapers in the UK are losing money and are not viable long term. Really some should have went bust by now but I think the influence they still have means that owners still value them and are willing to accept the losses.


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[Smartie]

I thought that - whilst I don’t necessarily disagree with them - her comments on the Tories were clumsy.

She’d been cute and careful for a very long time but she’d certainly been uncharacteristically clumsy on a number of subjects over the past year or two.

I suspect she’s been battle weary and that had she stayed in position the clumsy incidents would have started to mount, particularly with the number of traps that were laid for her on a daily basis.

[Rumble de Thump]

Is there actually anything likeable about the Tories? Why would it be kept such a closely guarded secret for all these years?

[grunt]

I don't really get what the difference is between being said and reported. There follows a lengthy discussion about what someone said and how it was interpreted! But no, no difference at all.

[grunt]

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”
Can I just point out that I completely agree with Nicola Sturgeon here.

[Smartie]

Can I just point out that I completely agree with Nicola Sturgeon here.

Many do, but do you not think that she gave her opponents ammunition by making those comments?

Were they wise, given that some of the people she may need to win round in order to achieve independence might have at some point identified as being a Tory in some shape or form?

[grunt]

Many do, but do you not think that she gave her opponents ammunition by making those comments?

Were they wise, given that some of the people she may need to win round in order to achieve independence might have at some point identified as being a Tory in some shape or form?
I thought people wanted their politicians to be more honest. If we want Tories to come around to the cause of independence then they need to realise that being a Tory is not a good thing, it is something they need to put behind them. So they need to be told, no? :wink:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Many do, but do you not think that she gave her opponents ammunition by making those comments?

Ammunition to use on who?

[Moulin Yarns]

What's the difference between later and afterwards? She didn't row back on the remarks during the Kuenssberg interview, only when questioned about them in another interview.

It's all a bit of nit pick anyway. I was just pointing out to another poster that yes, she did actually say those things.

You didn't complete the quote!!



“I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”


That surely indicates that she was talking about the party and not any thin skinned poster on Hibs.net

[He's here!]

You didn't complete the quote!!





That surely indicates that she was talking about the party and not any thin skinned poster on Hibs.net

Saying something in the morning and something else later in the day is obviously not part of the same quote.

[Moulin Yarns]

Saying something in the morning and something else later in the day is obviously not part of the same quote.

You are being deliberately daft!!!


Here is the quote again.

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”.

[Kato]

Is the Unionist press one entity?

How did so many people with the same take on Indy all end up working in the same place?

Some of these people working in the media will have been doing so for decades with absolutely no axe to grind against the SNP or NS. Why would they suddenly form some sort of cabal?

It doesn't make sense. There are hundreds of journalists writing for dozens of outlets all with their own individual views. If the majority of them are against Indy, that's because it's how they feel about it. Not because they're part of Better Together or any imaginary group.

Establishment? NS and the Scottish Gov are the establishment, and have been for years!Do you think journalists employed by a newspaper are allowed to just publish their own personal views?

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[He's here!]

You are being deliberately daft!!!


Here is the quote again.

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”.

You've lost me. Maybe I AM just being daft but that's exactly the quote I posted is it not?

[WhileTheChief..]

Do you think journalists employed by a newspaper are allowed to just publish their own personal views?

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Do you?

[J-C]

In an interview with the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, the First Minister said: “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.” She later qualified her remarks, saying: “I was talking about Tory party policy… I was not talking about individuals, I was not talking about people who vote for the Conservative Party.”


Again your opinion, doesn't make it fact. Lots of people saw it very differently, you can't tell them what they are think and believe is wrong if that's what they think and believe.


Did you chose to ignore this other post which clarifies it.

[Kato]

Do you?Given every newspaper has an editorial policy, no. That is how newspapers are run and the reason some exist, to put over certain viewpoint and exclude or downplay others.

This isn't some kind of controversial opinion. It's a fact.

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[WhileTheChief..]

Given every newspaper has an editorial policy, no. That is how newspapers are run and the reason some exist, to put over certain viewpoint and exclude or downplay others.

This isn't some kind of controversial opinion. It's a fact.

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I never said otherwise. That's also a fact.

You made a weird leap with your poxy, pointless, question. As you regularly do for the sake of an argument, instead of just, you know, chatting like ordinary people do.

[Kato]

I never said otherwise. That's also a fact.

You made a weird leap with your poxy, pointless, question. As you regularly do for the sake of an argument, instead of just, you know, chatting like ordinary people do.Ouch, W/C. Its only a message board, no need for the touchiness.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

You've lost me. Maybe I AM just being daft but that's exactly the quote I posted is it not?

No it wasn't
Here is what she said on Kuenssberg

“I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”


And what you claimed she said

“I detest the Tories.”

[James310]

No it wasn't
Here is what she said on Kuenssberg

“I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”


And what you claimed she said

“I detest the Tories.”

Why does adding "and everything they stand for" make any difference?

I detest Nazis.

I detest Nazis and everything they stand for.

What's the difference?

[hibsbollah]

Why does adding "and everything they stand for" make any difference?

I detest Nazis.

I detest Nazis and everything they stand for.

What's the difference?

I can’t believe I am responding to what should be clearly self evident, but…

If you ‘stand for’ something, you are clearly an actor, a protagonist, you set an agenda. You are, basically a politician, a producer of content.

‘A Tory voter’ by contrast, is a consumer of that content.

In a similar way, we say a politician ‘stands for election’.

So when Sturgeon says she ‘hates all that they stand for’, it’s clear what she means and to whom she is referring.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why does adding "and everything they stand for" make any difference?

I detest Nazis.

I detest Nazis and everything they stand for.

What's the difference?

Because the whole argument, if cared enough to be following, was suggesting that the implications were that she detested tory voters, but the full quote makes it clear that she detests the party, not the individuals.


Now, I know that you will start another argument so I will leave you to it.

I detest the Tory Party and all that they stand for.

[James310]

I can’t believe I am responding to what should be clearly self evident, but…

If you ‘stand for something’ , you are clearly an actor, a protagonist, you set an agenda. You are, basically a politician, a producer of content.

‘A Tory voter’ by contrast, is a consumer of that content.

In a similar way, we say a politician ‘stands for election’.

She never said Tory voters.

[James310]

Because the whole argument, if cared enough to be following, was suggesting that the implications were that she detested tory voters, but the full quote makes it clear that she detests the party, not the individuals.


Now, I know that you will start another argument so I will leave you to it.

I detest the Tory Party and all that they stand for.

It just a difference of opinion that's all. Some people see it one way and others see it another way. The fact it caused controversy at the time and it's still being brought up suggests it's not as black and white as some suggest.

[hibsbollah]

She never said Tory voters.

Apologies, I put that in quotation marks when I shouldn’t have.
That’s almost completely irrelevant to my point.

[Moulin Yarns]

It just a difference of opinion that's all. Some people see it one way and others see it another way. The fact it caused controversy at the time and it's still being brought up suggests it's not as black and white as some suggest.

Hey, if some folks want to misquote for political gains then they deserve to be called out and corrected.

The fact that he's still getting it wrong proves that they don't actually want to understand the difference.

[Kato]

Hey, if some folks want to misquote for political gains then they deserve to be called out and corrected.

The fact that he's still getting it wrong proves that they don't actually want to understand the difference.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-63191364

Clearly talking about the Tory govt.

Any gaslighting is purely for japes.

[WeeRussell]

It just a difference of opinion that's all. Some people see it one way and others see it another way. The fact it caused controversy at the time and it's still being brought up suggests it's not as black and white as some suggest.

Lol

[He's here!]

No it wasn't
Here is what she said on Kuenssberg

“I detest the Tories and everything they stand for.”


And what you claimed she said

“I detest the Tories.”

Think you must be mixing me up with someone else's post? I used the full quote.

[archie]

I can’t believe I am responding to what should be clearly self evident, but…

If you ‘stand for’ something, you are clearly an actor, a protagonist, you set an agenda. You are, basically a politician, a producer of content.

‘A Tory voter’ by contrast, is a consumer of that content.

In a similar way, we say a politician ‘stands for election’.

So when Sturgeon says she ‘hates all that they stand for’, it’s clear what she means and to whom she is referring.
Except it wasn't clear, hence the clarification. And it wasn't smart, because it allowed for willful misunderstanding, something politicians really try to avoid.

[Kato]

Except it wasn't clear, hence the clarification. And it wasn't smart, because it allowed for willful misunderstanding, something politicians really try to avoid.Sorry, Archie. But what wasn't clear?

She had to clarify it because she was asked to, even though in its context it was obvious what she was talking about.

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[archie]

Sorry, Archie. But what wasn't clear?

She had to clarify it because she was asked to, even though in its context it was obvious what she was talking about.

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And that was the key error. How it was expressed allowed people to take that impression and use it.

[Kato]

And that was the key error. How it was expressed allowed people to take that impression and use it.So just ignore the exact context along with the most obvious nuance then jump onto the most ignorant slant and portray it as something it clearly was not?

That is detestable.

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[Santa Cruz]

So just ignore the exact context along with the most obvious nuance then jump onto the most ignorant slant and portray it as something it clearly was not?

That is detestable.

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Would you say there's any difference between using the word hate or despise when politicians refer to opposing parties? I think they're pretty similar and regardless of context they're both inflammatory words. NS called out Emily Thornberry for saying she hated the SNP, she later apologised as she recognised it was wrong to say that just because she disagreed with SNP policies.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/ZMjHy

Nicola Sturgeon couldn’t settle the Scottish independence debate – but Brexit just might

[archie]

So just ignore the exact context along with the most obvious nuance then jump onto the most ignorant slant and portray it as something it clearly was not?

That is detestable.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkDon't be so naive. Politicians do it all the time. The trick is to make statements that can't be spun. One of the worst examples of walking into this was the Johann Lamont quote about Scots 'not being genetically programmed to make decisions.' This is not the full quote, which is actually about debate and political argument. She was making the entirely opposite point to that it was claimed she was making. But cynical opponents cut the quote to change the meaning. Lamont's error was making a convoluted point that could be edited. I'm sure you will agree the cynicism of editing the quote was 'detestable'.

[archie]

Here's the full Johann Lamont quote:
'Yes of course, but it could be introduced anywhere if people believed it was a good idea. We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions, we choose the world we want to live in. And we have to win the political argument. My frustration with this debate is the idea that by changing the constitution you presume that the arguments around equality, around justice around women’s rights have been won. They have not. You win them by political argument. And I think the fundamental.'

[Ozyhibby]

Here's the full Johann Lamont quote:
'Yes of course, but it could be introduced anywhere if people believed it was a good idea. We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions, we choose the world we want to live in. And we have to win the political argument. My frustration with this debate is the idea that by changing the constitution you presume that the arguments around equality, around justice around women’s rights have been won. They have not. You win them by political argument. And I think the fundamental.'

The full quote isn’t any better to be honest.[emoji2369]


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[archie]

The full quote isn’t any better to be honest.[emoji2369]


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It's making entirely the opposite point to the doctored quote!

[Santa Cruz]

It's making entirely the opposite point to the doctored quote!

The doctored quote though, it's not great, why would she include something so negative in the first place :confused:

[Smartie]

In fairness, the Lamont quote is a disaster but I’m yet to speak to a unionist who agrees with her.

[archie]

In fairness, the Lamont quote is a disaster but I’m yet to speak to a unionist who agrees with her.
What do you mean?

[archie]

The doctored quote though, it's not great, why would she include something so negative in the first place :confused:
It's a classic example of a convoluted answer that allows the point to be misrepresented. Or in this case doctored. The issue with the FM quote is that it allowed the same. Just like a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained, then a quote doesn't work if it needs textual analysis.

[Smartie]

What do you mean?

I don’t think any self-respecting Scot (or human being of any nationality), whatever their views on constitutional matters, thinks that the phrase about being genetically programmed to make political decisions has any business being uttered by anyone, in any context.

It’s one person’s quote and it’s such nonsense I don’t actually think it really has any business being used to try to prove any sort of point, personally.

[Santa Cruz]

I don’t think any self-respecting Scot (or human being of any nationality), whatever their views on constitutional matters, thinks that the phrase about being genetically programmed to make political decisions has any business being uttered by anyone, in any context.

It’s one person’s quote and it’s such nonsense I don’t actually think it really has any business being used to try to prove any sort of point, personally.

Thanks for saving me type your first para. Well said. :aok:

[archie]

I don’t think any self-respecting Scot (or human being of any nationality), whatever their views on constitutional matters, thinks that the phrase about being genetically programmed to make political decisions has any business being uttered by anyone, in any context.

It’s one person’s quote and it’s such nonsense I don’t actually think it really has any business being used to try to prove any sort of point, personally.

What do you think she is trying to say?

[Kato]

Don't be so naive. Politicians do it all the time. The trick is to make statements that can't be spun. One of the worst examples of walking into this was the Johann Lamont quote about Scots 'not being genetically programmed to make decisions.' This is not the full quote, which is actually about debate and political argument. She was making the entirely opposite point to that it was claimed she was making. But cynical opponents cut the quote to change the meaning. Lamont's error was making a convoluted point that could be edited. I'm sure you will agree the cynicism of editing the quote was 'detestable'.Naive. Yeah right.

At least with those Sturgeon/Thornberry/Lamont quotes we got to hear what they really felt instead of the usual soft soap or just outright lies.

On the latter person I'm not quite sure how her words have been twisted.

What is it Lamont actually means? Even the context fails to provide another way in which it could be taken.

Anyway, people waking up to hungry kids and cold houses this morning will have far more damning things to say. This discussion about whether Sturgeon meant Tories or Tory voters is just a big daft nothing confection. If Tory voters "feelings" were hurt because they chose to willfully misrepresent a quote -- so what, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe they shouldn't vote for ****s.

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[grunt]

Most of us hate the Tories

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1627274266205880321?s=20

[archie]

Naive. Yeah right.

At least with those Sturgeon/Thornberry/Lamont quotes we got to hear what they really felt instead of the usual soft soap or just outright lies.

On the latter person I'm not quite sure how her words have been twisted.

What is it Lamont actually means? Even the context fails to provide another way in which it could be taken.

Anyway, people waking up to hungry kids and cold houses this morning will have far more damning things to say. This discussion about whether Sturgeon meant Tories or Tory voters is just a big daft nothing confection. If Tory voters "feelings" were hurt because they chose to willfully misrepresent a quote -- so what, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe they shouldn't vote for ****s.

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Lamont was making the point that there needed to be debate and engagement with people to establish what they think, not assumptions by politicos. But because the phrasing was convoluted, the quote was able to be easily doctored to change its meaning. Something I'm sure you will agree was detestable.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1627274266205880321?s=20

I heard the Sunday show, the guest was jenny marra, former Labour MSP and colleague of Sarwar.

[Stairway 2 7]

#ihatethetories it's hard not to

[Stairway 2 7]

Good quote in that thread

“I am an English Liberal. I hate the Tory Party, their men, their words and their methods.” Winston Churchill - 1903

[Kato]

Lamont was making the point that there needed to be debate and engagement with people to establish what they think, not assumptions by politicos. But because the phrasing was convoluted, the quote was able to be easily doctored to change its meaning. Something I'm sure you will agree was detestable.So what does she mean exactly by "genetically programmed"? The extraction of those words and the full quote doesn't change what she was saying.



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[Kato]

I heard the Sunday show, the guest was jenny marra, former Labour MSP and colleague of Sarwar.Lord Davidson revelling and laughing at people's misery there.

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[Stairway 2 7]

So what does she mean exactly by "genetically programmed"? The extraction of those words and the full quote doesn't change what she was saying.



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Good football managers aren't genetically programmed to win they have to make the correct choices themselves. I think she was meaning similar

[archie]

So what does she mean exactly by "genetically programmed"? The extraction of those words and the full quote doesn't change what she was saying.



Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

She was pushing back against two things: the idea that independence would somehow automatically lead to social justice; and the Scottish exceptionalism that somehow Scottish people just are socially progressive. Instead she was saying that these were arguments that were still live and needed debate to be won. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that. But the key point I was making was the wording was so convoluted that it made the doctoring very easy. And that was the presentational error.

[archie]

Good quote in that thread

“I am an English Liberal. I hate the Tory Party, their men, their words and their methods.” Winston Churchill - 1903

Gosh, lining up with Churchill now. Never thought I'd see the day.

[One Day Soon]

I would just gently point out that both Humza Yousaf and Johann Lamont are really nice, decent people. However neither of them should be in charge of either a political party or a country. Ever.

Politicians using extreme language in a political context does not generally end well. Its use in mainstream political discourse generally just legitimises othering and opens the door to people with much more sinister motives who actually really do want to foster division.

[Santa Cruz]

Good football managers aren't genetically programmed to win they have to make the correct choices themselves. I think she was meaning similar

Tangent time. Just had a flashback to Strachan blaming genetics on our falure to qualify for an international tournament. Yet we managed when he was playing.:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Good football managers aren't genetically programmed to win they have to make the correct choices themselves. I think she was meaning similar

I think the context and intended meaning was that becoming independent would not of itself mean that somehow things would automatically be better. That there wasn't a group of Scots with as yet untapped talents for government just waiting to be released from the burdens of union to evidence these talents. I think her point was that in order to transform Scotland, in the current or an independent context, you do have to actually confront our challenges head on, think about them, bring forward polices and plans to overcome them and then get on with the job of seeing it through. Or, genetics doesn't make for good government. Good politicians, good policy making and good politics do. It was not well expressed, clearly.

[Stairway 2 7]

Tangent time. Just had a flashback to Strachan blaming genetics on our falure to qualify for an international tournament. Yet we managed when he was playing.:greengrin

Yeah we were too small, no sure why wee Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and alba ect ruled with Spain ha

[Kato]

SNP person says brutal thing = "that's awful you can't say that, temper your language".

Labour person says brutal thing = "she didn't mean that here's the benign thing she actually meant".

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[Rumble de Thump]

SNP person says brutal thing = "that's awful you can't say that, temper your language".

Labour person says brutal thing = "she didn't mean that here's the benign thing she actually meant".

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And Conservatives use dangerous, toxic language as standard.

[Kato]

And Conservatives use dangerous, toxic language as standard.That doesn't count. They say what they want.

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[archie]

SNP person says brutal thing = "that's awful you can't say that, temper your language".

Labour person says brutal thing = "she didn't mean that here's the benign thing she actually meant".

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkI'm not saying that. I was merely highlighting the political risk of using language that can easily be misrepresented or doctored.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1627002594676690946?s=46&t=8kYqFJ2kBXHRun44Tj6pZg


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[One Day Soon]

And Conservatives use dangerous, toxic language as standard.


They do and it's no more acceptable than the others. Neither was Rayner's use of the term 5cum.

[grunt]

They do and it's no more acceptable than the others. Neither was Rayner's use of the term 5cum.
She was right.

[Santa Cruz]

She was right.

She acknoweldged herself she was wrong by way of an apology.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/survation/status/1627002594676690946?s=46&t=8kYqFJ2kBXHRun44Tj6pZg


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Poor for Yousef and Swinney. Is it turning into a two horse race, disappointed Flynn not running obviously with rull change or a safe msp seat win

[Stairway 2 7]

SNP person says brutal thing = "that's awful you can't say that, temper your language".

Labour person says brutal thing = "she didn't mean that here's the benign thing she actually meant".

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Or alternatively both were storm in a teacup

[grunt]

She acknoweldged herself she was wrong by way of an apology.An apology which she had to make to stop all the media fuss. If she said it - as clearly as she said it - IMO she meant it.

[Kato]

Or alternatively both were storm in a teacupTell that to James(numbersafterhisname), who seems to have disappeared on this matter once Sturgeon's quotes were made clear as day.

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[Santa Cruz]

An apology which she had to make to stop all the media fuss. If she said it - as clearly as she said it - IMO she meant it.

Have you never said anything in the heat of the moment you've regretted? I think if people were honest they would admit they have at some point. What any decent person would then do would be acknowledge their mistake, apologise, hope it was accepted and that was the matter closed. Have a great day :aok:

[grunt]

Have you never said anything in the heat of the moment you've regretted? I think if people were honest they would admit they have at some point. What any decent person would then do would be acknowledge their mistake, apologise, hope it was accepted and that was the matter closed. Have a great day :aok:
It's entirely possible to regret saying something that you absolutely mean.

[Ozyhibby]

I think insulting Tories will worry those who did it less than insulting all Scots genetic make up but honestly who cares either way? Lamont is yesterdays news as well.


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[SteveHFC]

Greens threaten to walk away from coalition deal if Forbes wins contest.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-threaten-walk-away-29253730

[He's here!]

An apology which she had to make to stop all the media fuss. If she said it - as clearly as she said it - IMO she meant it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1221487883112022016/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1221487883112022016&currentTweetUser=GrayInGlasgow

How about Thornberry, who IIRC later apologised for this. Did she mean it?

[James310]

Tell that to James(numbersafterhisname), who seems to have disappeared on this matter once Sturgeon's quotes were made clear as day.

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I answered your question, you never liked the answer. Why can't you just accept different people will see it differently and your opinion is not fact. If you want to keep going reply back to my posts rather than dragging me back into something I had left.

[Kato]

https://mobile.twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1221487883112022016/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1221487883112022016&currentTweetUser=GrayInGlasgow

How about Thornberry, who IIRC later apologised for this. Did she mean it?She does say it twice and the audience cheer and applaud.

At the end of the day, what difference does words make in the face of the current govts actions?

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[He's here!]

Greens threaten to walk away from coalition deal if Forbes wins contest.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-threaten-walk-away-29253730

They'll presumably also do so if Regan wins:

https://archive.is/pkRGp

Personally I'd love to see the toxic Greens stick around and continue to undermine the SG's popular appeal so fingers crossed for Yousef.

[Ozyhibby]

Greens threaten to walk away from coalition deal if Forbes wins contest.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-threaten-walk-away-29253730

I think that would be very foolish of them but they are perfectly entitled to. They get far more from the deal than the SNP do but they don’t get to pick the SNP leader.


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[archie]

She does say it twice and the audience cheer and applaud.

At the end of the day, what difference does words make in the face of the current govts actions?

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkI think the difference is palpable. Trump has shown that weaponising rage and hate can be an effective strategy. But it falls apart when people are looking for hope. Personally I think leading on hate is really negative strategy as most people don't think that way. It plays well with the base, but has a diminishing return with the wider public. Part of the reason for that is that people don't tend to live in politically sealed bubbles. I know people who are Tories and lovely people. I know people who voted for Brexit for socialist reasons. I don't hate them or think they are ****. I just disagree with them.

[Kato]

I think the difference is palpable. Trump has shown that weaponising rage and hate can be an effective strategy. But it falls apart when people are looking for hope. Personally I think leading on hate is really negative strategy as most people don't think that way. It plays well with the base, but has a diminishing return with the wider public. Part of the reason for that is that people don't tend to live in politically sealed bubbles. I know people who are Tories and lovely people. I know people who voted for Brexit for socialist reasons. I don't hate them or think they are ****. I just disagree with them.Bringing in Trumps tactics is verging on Godwins Law.

No one is weaponising language more than the Tory Party, not even close.

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[archie]

Bringing in Trumps tactics is verging on Godwins Law.

No one is weaponising language more than the Tory Party, not even close.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkDo you think that the Trump campaign didn't weaponsise rage?

[Stairway 2 7]

Greens threaten to walk away from coalition deal if Forbes wins contest.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-threaten-walk-away-29253730

They won't, they have no power unless they are part of the SNP government. I hope snp get a majority next time, so they can shake them off

[WeeRussell]

Do you think that the Trump campaign didn't weaponsise rage?

He does. Have a look at what is meant by Godwin’s law.

[archie]

He does. Have a look at what is meant by Godwin’s law.

I know fine well what it is. But you can't just shout Godwin's law as a way to avoid addressing the issues raised.

[Kato]

Do you think that the Trump campaign didn't weaponsise rage?

I meant the UK.

...who is weaponising rage in the UK?

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[Kato]

I know fine well what it is. But you can't just shout Godwin's law as a way to avoid addressing the issues raised.If that is your main issue, rock on.

You are now attempting to equate what Sturgeon said (and for that matter Thornberry and Lamont) with Trumps day to day rhetoric. Which is an absolute joke.

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[Kato]

I know fine well what it is. But you can't just shout Godwin's law as a way to avoid addressing the issues raised.BTW I didn't shout.

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[Kato]

They won't, they have no power unless they are part of the SNP government. I hope snp get a majority next time, so they can shake them offI hope the green party shake off their particular set of bams and have someone who will concentrate on actual environmental issues and how to tackle what is to come.

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[Stairway 2 7]

I hope the green party shake off their particular set of bams and have someone who will concentrate on actual environmental issues and to tackle what is to come.

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Agreed whilst I think a lot of their aims and opinions are admirable and I agree with them, they aren't shouting enough about the climate disaster were at the beginning off.

[WeeRussell]

I know fine well what it is. But you can't just shout Godwin's law as a way to avoid addressing the issues raised.

My mistake. I thought when you had to ask Kato’s opinion on Trump’s campaigns, it suggested you didn’t get what he meant.

[archie]

If that is your main issue, rock on.

You are now attempting to equate what Sturgeon said (and for that matter Thornberry and Lamont) with Trumps day to day rhetoric. Which is an absolute joke.

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That's not where I was coming from at all actually. The point I was making was that weaponising hate and rage can only take you so far, which one of the reasons Trump lost. I thought FMs statement about hating the Tories was just so negative. It was in line with the strategy of constantly referencing the Tories, so I don't think it was casual. I don't happen to think that it's a great strategy because it's locks into a dynamic that can shift. The obvious shift is the potential for Labour to win the next GE. What do you do when the bogeyman has gone? And Sunak is a harder target to hit than Johnson. While attacks on Labour have increased, they don't stick in the same way.

But there is a more fundamental point. The Yes campaign in 2014 was brilliant. They had great strategists, a charismatic leader, had mastered software like nation builder, and had lots of cash, courtesy of the lottery winners. The SNP largely funded the Yes campaign, but was able to create a dynamic that suggested a broad based campaign. But most of all it was optimistic and positive. That, in my view, was one of the reasons they came close. I think that vision will always ultimately triumph over hate based negativity,

[archie]

My mistake. I thought when you had to ask Kato’s opinion on Trump’s campaigns, it suggested you didn’t get what he meant.
Thanks - I was trying to get Kato to develop the point.

[Kato]

Thanks - I was trying to get Kato to develop the point.I don't see the point. Trumpsim means railing against vulnerable people to make other people feel superior - day after day after day.

Lamont, Thornberry or Sturgeon have never done that.

Can you show me any equivalence?

Is there a UK party which does indulge in the above, or gets close?

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[archie]

I don't see the point. Trumpsim means railing against vulnerable people to make other people feel superior - day after day after day.

Lamont, Thornberry or Sturgeon have never done that.

Can you show me any equivalence?

Is there a UK party which does indulge in the above, or gets close?

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I mean we can discuss Trump and parallels if you like, but do you have any thoughts on my observations about negative campaigning versus the optimism of the 2014 campaign?

[Kato]

I mean we can discuss Trump and parallels if you like, but do you have any thoughts on my observations about negative campaigning versus the optimism of the 2014 campaign?It would be really hard for a campaign called "Yes" to sound negative.

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[marinello59]

It would be really hard for a campaign called "Yes" to sound negative.

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You would think. :greengrin

[Crunchie]

She acknoweldged herself she was wrong by way of an apology.
Disgusting use of language for a senior politician and just about sums up where society in general is going.

[Paul1642]

Greens threaten to walk away from coalition deal if Forbes wins contest.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-threaten-walk-away-29253730

Good. Everyone is better off without them. They have way too much power for a party that took 1.3% of the vote constituency vote and 8.1% of the regional vote. Much like the DUP at Westminster a few years ago they have done nothing to benefit the running of the country. I don’t doubt that the gender reform issue which was a factor in Sturgeons demise was pushed by the Greens. I would rather the SNP looked past the independence issue for now and worked with the Lib Dem’s or relied on a few sensible Labour MSPs for the remainder of parliament.

I also can’t help but believe many of the people who voted or the Green Party done so based on environmental concerns or due to them being the only non SNP pro independence party which in reality don’t seem to the party’s main concerns.

An election once the new leader is settled in is probably a good idea.

[Santa Cruz]

Disgusting use of language for a senior politician and just about sums up where society in general is going.

If you check the Labour thread I think I said at the time she let herself down.

[Crunchie]

If you check the Labour thread I think I said at the time she let herself down.
I wasn't aiming anything at you, sorry if it came over that way. I see they've managed to deflect another SNP thread though :faf:

[Santa Cruz]

Good. Everyone is better off without them. They have way too much power for a party that took 1.3% of the vote constituency vote and 8.1% of the regional vote. Much like the DUP at Westminster a few years ago they have done nothing to benefit the running of the country. I don’t doubt that the gender reform issue which was a factor in Sturgeons demise was pushed by the Greens. I would rather the SNP looked past the independence issue for now and worked with the Lib Dem’s or relied on a few sensible Labour MSPs for the remainder of parliament.

I also can’t help but believe many of the people who voted or the Green Party done so based on environmental concerns or due to them being the only non SNP pro independence party which in reality don’t seem to the party’s main concerns.

An election once the new leader is settled in is probably a good idea.

A bit here about Green Party voters intentions.
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

[Santa Cruz]

I wasn't aiming anything at you, sorry if it came over that way. I see they've managed to deflect another SNP thread though :faf:

No probs, my misunderstanding. :aok:

[Stairway 2 7]

Disgusting use of language for a senior politician and just about sums up where society in general is going.

Hopefully your right and more in society are realising the tories are repugnant. I hate the tories because their policies cause the poorest in society to die, I think it was 300,000 that were estimated to have died due to the austerity policies. Least its less tax though eh so more in my pocket

[Stairway 2 7]

A bit here about Green Party voters intentions.
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

Jeez, that's less that I thought

[Crunchie]

A bit here about Green Party voters intentions.
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence
Just like SNP voters there are a fair percentage who don't vote for them for Independence and would vote no in a referendum.

[Crunchie]

Hopefully your right and more in society are realising the tories are repugnant. I hate the tories because their policies cause the poorest in society to die, I think it was 300,000 that were estimated to have died due to the austerity policies. Least its less tax though eh so more in my pocket
This is a Sturgeon thread so I won't deflect it anymore than already's been done.

[Paul1642]

A bit here about Green Party voters intentions.
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

Interesting. Of those who would vote for them regionally (where they got by far their higher amount of votes) only 23% would vote against independence. In a country that is for argument sake split 50/50 on the issue that is pretty low.

I couldn’t find it in the article but i would bet that the SNP an aren’t far from 23% of their voters being against independence also.

[archie]

It would be really hard for a campaign called "Yes" to sound negative.

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Which is why the wording of any question is such a battleground. But that's another topic.

[Kato]

Hopefully your right and more in society are realising the tories are repugnant. I hate the tories because their policies cause the poorest in society to die, I think it was 300,000 that were estimated to have died due to the austerity policies. Least its less tax though eh so more in my pocketPoor language=bad
Cultural murder=meh

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[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting. Of those who would vote for them regionally (where they got by far their higher amount of votes) only 23% would vote against independence. In a country that is for argument sake split 50/50 on the issue that is pretty low.

I couldn’t find it in the article but i would bet that the SNP an aren’t far from 23% of their voters being against independence also.

I'd doubt that, but no idea tbf

[Santa Cruz]

Interesting. Of those who would vote for them regionally (where they got by far their higher amount of votes) only 23% would vote against independence. In a country that is for argument sake split 50/50 on the issue that is pretty low.

I couldn’t find it in the article but i would bet that the SNP an aren’t far from 23% of their voters being against independence also.

The regional vote should be renamed the tactical vote :greengrin I would like a new electoral rule limiting candidates to no more than 2 terms as a regional msp, apllied to those who stand for a constiuency seat and fail to win. No Scottish Green poltician has ever won a constiuency seat afaik.

[James310]

I don't see the point. Trumpsim means railing against vulnerable people to make other people feel superior - day after day after day.

Lamont, Thornberry or Sturgeon have never done that.

Can you show me any equivalence?

Is there a UK party which does indulge in the above, or gets close?

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Well now you mention it...

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1627339598148907008?t=yNieyqjIiCxYCRSLBThGpA&s=19

A senior SNP parliamentary source tells me: "This is a version of Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again."

They were not being complimentary.

[Ozyhibby]

The regional vote should be renamed the tactical vote :greengrin I would like a new electoral rule limiting candidates to no more than 2 terms as a regional msp, apllied to those who stand for a constiuency seat and fail to win. No Scottish Green poltician has ever won a constiuency seat afaik.

Why not just have first past the post then?


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[He's here!]

Well now you mention it...

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1627339598148907008?t=yNieyqjIiCxYCRSLBThGpA&s=19

A senior SNP parliamentary source tells me: "This is a version of Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again."

They were not being complimentary.

Saw that earlier. I was impressed by her stance (and speech) during the gender reform fiasco but I think even Trump can spell and punctuate better than that.

[archie]

Poor language=bad
Cultural murder=meh

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

It is possible to have views on more than one thing at one time.

[James310]

Saw that earlier. I was impressed by her stance (and speech) during the gender reform fiasco but I think even Trump can spell and punctuate better than that.

Same, principles obviously mean something to her but her statement was awful. She is the Alba candidate basically so stands no chance.

[Kato]

Well now you mention it...

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1627339598148907008?t=yNieyqjIiCxYCRSLBThGpA&s=19

A senior SNP parliamentary source tells me: "This is a version of Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again."

They were not being complimentary.How is this dripping hate on the vulnerable?

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[He's here!]

Good. Everyone is better off without them. They have way too much power for a party that took 1.3% of the vote constituency vote and 8.1% of the regional vote. Much like the DUP at Westminster a few years ago they have done nothing to benefit the running of the country. I don’t doubt that the gender reform issue which was a factor in Sturgeons demise was pushed by the Greens. I would rather the SNP looked past the independence issue for now and worked with the Lib Dem’s or relied on a few sensible Labour MSPs for the remainder of parliament.

I also can’t help but believe many of the people who voted or the Green Party done so based on environmental concerns or due to them being the only non SNP pro independence party which in reality don’t seem to the party’s main concerns.

An election once the new leader is settled in is probably a good idea.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-snp-green-coalition-is-unlikely-to-last-the-week/

'SNP-Green coalition is unlikely to last the week'

[James310]

How is this dripping hate on the vulnerable?

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Just pointing out the Trump comparisons, that's all. 👍

[Rumble de Thump]

Well now you mention it...

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1627339598148907008?t=yNieyqjIiCxYCRSLBThGpA&s=19

A senior SNP parliamentary source tells me: "This is a version of Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again."

They were not being complimentary.

Seems unbelievable, doesn't it?

[WeeRussell]

I wasn't aiming anything at you, sorry if it came over that way. I see they've managed to deflect another SNP thread though :faf:

Which ‘they’?

He/she can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think ODS is an SNP supporter. At least not part of the ‘they’ you’re presumably referring to. Everyone else has simply responded like you have.

It’s been a few days now since NS resigned and a few of the resident obsessed began piling into this thread to revel in it.. it’s not that unusual that the thread goes off on the odd tangent.

[One Day Soon]

Which ‘they’?

He/she can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think ODS is an SNP supporter. At least not part of the ‘they’ you’re presumably referring to. Everyone else has simply responded like you have.

It’s been a few days now since NS resigned and a few of the resident obsessed began piling into this thread to revel in it.. it’s not that unusual that the thread goes off on the odd tangent.


For clarity, I'm absolutely not. Where I stand is:
I'm over the moon she's gone.
I think using hate language in politics is both counterproductive (and usually pretty meaningless in the context of political discussion) and means we end up using the currency of the extremists throughout history
Cannot quite believe that Yousaf might be FM but now think that quite likely.
Am pretty sure the SNP itself is having a bit of a WTF? moment because they've never had a meaningful leadership election in something like 30 years and there appear to be no easy answers on offer either on their Indy strategy or what to do next on the gender issue.
Remain unconvinced that NS just woke up that morning and thought '**** it, I'm off'. Watch this space.

[Crunchie]

For clarity, I'm absolutely not. Where I stand is:
I'm over the moon she's gone.
I think using hate language in politics is both counterproductive (and usually pretty meaningless in the context of political discussion) and means we end up using the currency of the extremists throughout history
Cannot quite believe that Yousaf might be FM but now think that quite likely.
Am pretty sure the SNP itself is having a bit of a WTF? moment because they've never had a meaningful leadership election in something like 30 years and there appear to be no easy answers on offer either on their Indy strategy or what to do next on the gender issue.
Remain unconvinced that NS just woke up that morning and thought '**** it, I'm off'. Watch this space.

Not sure why he brought up your name when he replied to my post, I never referenced you at all. I agree with everything you say btw.

[WeeRussell]

Not sure why he brought up your name when he replied to my post, I never referenced you at all. I agree with everything you say btw.

As it was ODS who brought up Rayner and the use of the word ‘****’ - the topic that you replied to accusing ‘they’ of deflection. Really not that difficult.

Unless of course you didn’t bother to read any previous posts and just come out with that, or knew fine well but just made it up anyway.

[He's here!]

For clarity, I'm absolutely not. Where I stand is:
I'm over the moon she's gone.
I think using hate language in politics is both counterproductive (and usually pretty meaningless in the context of political discussion) and means we end up using the currency of the extremists throughout history
Cannot quite believe that Yousaf might be FM but now think that quite likely.
Am pretty sure the SNP itself is having a bit of a WTF? moment because they've never had a meaningful leadership election in something like 30 years and there appear to be no easy answers on offer either on their Indy strategy or what to do next on the gender issue.
Remain unconvinced that NS just woke up that morning and thought '**** it, I'm off'. Watch this space.

When I spotted the 'breaking news' alert that she was quitting it felt like when you see a goalflash that Hibs have taken the lead and for that moment all seems right with the world.

[One Day Soon]

I've seen this posted by someone else on twitter and it struck a chord with me. I do feel some sympathy for those SNP members who are having to deal with what currently looks very like it might be the collapse of coherent politics within their party and quite a lot of personal stuff emerging. Having been through that in Labour it was pretty hellish. Not so much sympathy for those who conduct themselves like total a-holes, but I can think of a good few of their members I've known for many, many years who are people of goodwill and good intention who will be desperate about how this is shaping up in the first few hours of the contest.

[He's here!]

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,nicola-sturgeon-mandy-rhodes-reflects-on-her-relationship-with-the-outgoing-snp-leader

Interesting article about how a close working relationship, almost a friendship, unravelled.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,nicola-sturgeon-mandy-rhodes-reflects-on-her-relationship-with-the-outgoing-snp-leader

Interesting article about how a close working relationship, almost a friendship, unravelled.

An interesting read and a sad one in several ways.

I remember after Maggie Thatcher died there was a piece written about her that said in her latter years she was often hours early for appointments and was regularly seen sitting alone in the House of Lords waiting for business to start. Part of that was of course her declining cognitive function due to a series of strokes and dementia but it was also, at least in part in the eyes of the author, because she had few true friends and nowhere else to be. She had sacrificed almost every personal relationship she had to get to the top.

Now you can't compare Maggie Thatcher and Nicola Sturgeon for a whole number of reasons but that painting of lives with few real friendships seems to hint at certain parallels. Getting to the top in politics when you don't come from a select elite is difficult for anyone, and neither Thatcher not Sturgeon come from that clique, and that is probably even more true for a woman. I don't doubt it takes a huge personal toll on health, relationships and friendships. It makes the terminology used by that roaster Stuart Campbell the other day all the more galling.

I didn't and don't agree with Nicola Sturgeon about a lot (I'm sure that won't be the most pressing of her concerns in years to come😅) but I respect that single mindedness to get to the top and try to implement something she believed in. She may well be close minded, distrustful and someone who finds criticism impossible to take but then to get where she did she probably had to be like that.

[He's here!]

An interesting read and a sad one in several ways.

I remember after Maggie Thatcher died there was a piece written about her that said in her latter years she was often hours early for appointments and was regularly seen sitting alone in the House of Lords waiting for business to start. Part of that was of course her declining cognitive function due to a series of strokes and dementia but it was also, at least in part in the eyes of the author, because she had few true friends and nowhere else to be. She had sacrificed almost every personal relationship she had to get to the top.

Now you can't compare Maggie Thatcher and Nicola Sturgeon for a whole number of reasons but that painting of lives with few real friendships seems to hint at certain parallels. Getting to the top in politics when you don't come from a select elite is difficult for anyone, and neither Thatcher not Sturgeon come from that clique, and that is probably even more true for a woman. I don't doubt it takes a huge personal toll on health, relationships and friendships. It makes the terminology used by that roaster Stuart Campbell the other day all the more galling.

I didn't and don't agree with Nicola Sturgeon about a lot (I'm sure that won't be the most pressing of her concerns in years to come😅) but I respect that single mindedness to get to the top and try to implement something she believed in. She may well be close minded, distrustful and someone who finds criticism impossible to take but then to get where she did she probably had to be like that.

Probably a lot of truth in that. The closed mindedness had become especially clear by the end and as Rhodes says the gender reforms seemed a surprising choice of 'hill to die on'.

I wasn't aware of Campbell saying anything about her this week? He appears always to have loathed her tho.

[Berwickhibby]

Swinney also chucks it…

[marinello59]

Swinney also chucks it…

He gave up trying years ago.

[Moulin Yarns]

Swinney also chucks it…

I said that he wouldn't be putting his name forward as leader, he has enough on his plate in his personal life with 2 family members that need a lot of care.

He's my MSP and I wish him well on the back bench.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/OurNicQuotes/status/1631330162976477187?t=cHcdgdkn-7SjoCajeZGAgQ&s=19

[He's here!]

Swinney also chucks it…

Been rumoured since Sturgeon quit. Looking after his wife is doubtless a factor but it's felt like he'd run out of road for a while now.

[heretoday]

Sturgeon should have spread the covid TV pressers around the other ministers in her government. It would have taken some of the strain off her. As a result, we know less about the three leadership candidates than we might have. She left empty vessels behind.

It was all about her.

[grunt]

Sturgeon should have spread the covid TV pressers around the other ministers in her government. It would have taken some of the strain off her. As a result, we know less about the three leadership candidates than we might have. She left empty vessels behind.

It was all about her.
Well that's one way of looking at it.

[Berwickhibby]

Sturgeon should have spread the covid TV pressers around the other ministers in her government. It would have taken some of the strain off her. As a result, we know less about the three leadership candidates than we might have. She left empty vessels behind.

It was all about her.

Agreed…I said the same thing on the Covid thread during the pandemic

[grunt]

Agreed…I said the same thing on the Covid thread during the pandemicWell, I doubt you called her Sturgeon ...