Congestion charges and low emission zones

[SteveHFC]

Still waiting on Elm Row left turn to be re opened after they admitted it was a mistake, wonder how long it'll take. Still nothing at the top of Braid Rd where they also said it would re open, around a year ago, still waiting.

Seen today, the cowgate traffic ban has been delayed due to funding issues. Wonder if they have funding issues reopening the Elm Row left turn.

[J-C]

Seen today, the cowgate traffic ban has been delayed due to funding issues. Wonder if they have funding issues reopening the Elm Row left turn.

Must've read my moan, traffic lights changed and left turn allowed now.😁

[Ozyhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.com/post/3lbtplbjxq22f


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[lapsedhibee]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.com/post/3lbtplbjxq22f


Laying new cobblestones to encourage cycling? Madness!

[Moulin Yarns]

Laying new cobblestones to encourage cycling? Madness!

Looking at both photos there are 'real' cobblestone in the picture with cars. In the car free picture the road is concrete or clay paving bricks which are manufactured with flat surfaces.

[Ozyhibby]

Laying new cobblestones to encourage cycling? Madness!

Those cobblestones look a lot better for cycling than our cobblestones.


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[lapsedhibee]

Looking at both photos there are 'real' cobblestone in the picture with cars. In the car free picture the road is concrete or clay paving bricks which are manufactured with flat surfaces.

You could be right as there's already a chunk out of the road just by the michelin-man cyclist's back wheel.

[Moulin Yarns]

You could be right as there's already a chunk out of the road just by the michelin-man cyclist's back wheel.

Actually, now I've looked closer they are stone, but cut by modern tools so are flatter than Edwardian or Georgian cobblestones.

[Ozyhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.com/post/3lh6zcnurak2h


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[Ozyhibby]

https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2025/02/edinburgh-councillors-considering-increases-in-parking-permit-costs/

Now we’re talking.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/mar/07/london-air-pollution-down-since-ulez-expansion-study

A success then?[emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/mar/07/london-air-pollution-down-since-ulez-expansion-study

A success then?[emoji106]


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Less than 5% reduction due to LEZ isn't that impressive imo. I'd go with a congestion charge, rather that hitting old cars that were predominantly owned by those who could afford a new car least

[Moulin Yarns]

Less than 5% reduction due to LEZ isn't that impressive imo. I'd go with a congestion charge, rather that hitting old cars that were predominantly owned by those who could afford a new car least

Where are you getting your 5%?

[Berwickhibby]

Less than 5% reduction due to LEZ isn't that impressive imo. I'd go with a congestion charge, rather that hitting old cars that were predominantly owned by those who could afford a new car least

You have been warned before about applying common sense on the thread :greengrin:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Where are you getting your 5%?

In the article. The micrograms per cubic metre was roughly 22 and the estimate without lez was 23, it would have been a huge reduction regardless the study showed due to people moving to modern cars. It's less of an issue now as when lez came. It would obviously eventually be obsolete when we go electric and the lez cameras will need to come down or be used for something else

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/apr/04/more-than-1m-cars-sold-in-uk-each-year-too-big-to-fit-typical-parking-space

This is a big part of the problem.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/apr/04/more-than-1m-cars-sold-in-uk-each-year-too-big-to-fit-typical-parking-space

This is a big part of the problem.


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Parking spaces recommend size hasn't changed for 55 years!!!! When a mini was!

[RyeSloan]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/apr/04/more-than-1m-cars-sold-in-uk-each-year-too-big-to-fit-typical-parking-space

This is a big part of the problem.


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What problem are they a big part of?

Potholes are not really caused by SUV’s or any domestic vehicle really. Just have a look at what busses do to the tarmac in bus lanes and bus stops to see what size and type of vehicle is causing most of the road damage.

Pollution…well most premium SUV’s and the rest of the domestic vehicle range are rapidly going electric so that will take care of itself.

Parking spaces…well they are in general to damn small for even ‘normal’ sized family cars these days no matter large SUV’s. And anyway parking in city centres is rather frowned upon these days anyway!

Pedestrians - Sure you probably don’t want to be whacked by one but then again the presence of these vehicles hardly seems to have had a detrimental effect on casualty rates and the largest contributor of all is pedestrians not looking properly…not the rise n rise of SUV’s!:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2023/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedestrian-factsheet-2023#main-findings

[hibee]

They’ve used 1.8m wide to classify it as a large SUV, that’s Ford Fiesta width so no wonder the numbers they’ve come up with are so high.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/11/upshot/congestion-pricing.html?smtyp=cur&smid=bsky-nytimes

Article on New York’s congestion charge. Seems to be working.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/11/upshot/congestion-pricing.html?smtyp=cur&smid=bsky-nytimes

Article on New York’s congestion charge. Seems to be working.


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Who cares about New York, it’s still a farce with Ulez punishing those with legally insured and taxed vehicles to enter the city due to age.

[Ozyhibby]

Who cares about New York, it’s still a farce with Ulez punishing those with legally insured and taxed vehicles to enter the city due to age.

Less vehicle in the city centre is a win for all. Impressive refusal to look at evidence and best practice though.[emoji106]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Less vehicle in the city centre is a win for all. Impressive refusal to look at evidence and best practice though.[emoji106]


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But, but my old van must carry the can,
For you dilly dallying in the fumes!

[Berwickhibby]

Less vehicle in the city centre is a win for all. Impressive refusal to look at evidence and best practice though.[emoji106]


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Not a win for me or my business…that’s looking at the evidence and best practice for legislation that effects me.

[Berwickhibby]

But, but my old van must carry the can,
For you dilly dallying in the fumes!

Yawn 🥱

[J-C]

Less vehicle in the city centre is a win for all. Impressive refusal to look at evidence and best practice though.[emoji106]


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The city centre is as busy as ever, people upgrade their cars and we have multiple buses blocking every road possible, 2 bus companies going to airport every 10 minutes, PHC cars almost at 3,000 and nearly every street with building work being blocked with construction vehicles, welcome to the nightmare that is Edinburgh.

[Moulin Yarns]

The city centre is as busy as ever, people upgrade their cars and we have multiple buses blocking every road possible, 2 bus companies going to airport every 10 minutes, PHC cars almost at 3,000 and nearly every street with building work being blocked with construction vehicles, welcome to the nightmare that is Edinburgh.

I'm in Edinburgh for a few days and my wife commented how quiet the roads were. We walked from Morningside clock to powderhall via the meadows, the bridges, high street, Broughton street. Also walked powderhall to Dean gallery and it was easy cross the roads. Never known it so quiet.

Pitlochry on the other hand is always busy and you take your life in your hands trying to cross the road.

[J-C]

I'm in Edinburgh for a few days and my wife commented how quiet the roads were. We walked from Morningside clock to powderhall via the meadows, the bridges, high street, Broughton street. Also walked powderhall to Dean gallery and it was easy cross the roads. Never known it so quiet.

Pitlochry on the other hand is always busy and you take your life in your hands trying to cross the road.

Try Lothian Rd, The Mound, Leith St, Queen St, as busy as ever.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250607/164122820202613ebc1d7a28f90d692a.png

https://etsc.eu/20mph-limits-in-london-linked-to-sharp-fall-in-road-injuries-and-deaths-new-report-finds/

Time to role this out across the whole of Edinburgh.


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[Hibspur]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250607/164122820202613ebc1d7a28f90d692a.png

https://etsc.eu/20mph-limits-in-london-linked-to-sharp-fall-in-road-injuries-and-deaths-new-report-finds/

Time to role this out across the whole of Edinburgh.


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Agreed, although it appears to have been rolled out across much of the city already?

[RyeSloan]

Agreed, although it appears to have been rolled out across much of the city already?

About 85% of the city has them and they are of course largely ignored!

[J-C]

About 85% of the city has them and they are of course largely ignored!

Good luck driving along Lanark Rd, Calder Rd and Glasgow Rd at 30 mph.

[Smartie]

About 85% of the city has them and they are of course largely ignored!

I think though, that part of the point is that if you ignore the 20 limit and drive at 25-30 then it's better than ignoring the 30 limit and driving at 35-40.

All of these stats change drastically from 20mph - 40mph so anything that can be done to drag the majority of people to the lower part of this range is going to be highly significant.

You wouldn't want to be getting caught driving just above 35 in a 20 but would you give it all that much thought if it was a 30?

I've probably got more of a problem with reducing the limits on fairly safe dual carriageway type roads outside of built up areas to 40 and 50 (I'm thinking between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge here) than I do bringing limits in town down to 20.

[matty_f]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250607/164122820202613ebc1d7a28f90d692a.png

https://etsc.eu/20mph-limits-in-london-linked-to-sharp-fall-in-road-injuries-and-deaths-new-report-finds/

Time to role this out across the whole of Edinburgh.


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I was in London earlier in the year and while I was there, there was a report on the radio saying that the impact of the congestion charges had put London something like 300 years ahead of where it would have been towards cleaner air had they relied on things like natural conversion to electric vehicles and incremental improvements to combustion engines.

I thought that was remarkable, and how would you apply it to other cities. The big advantage London has is the Tube service, which is brilliant - you can reliably and quite affordably get across the city very quickly. It’s a great alternative to sitting in traffic and fighting for expensive parking spaces.

Edinburgh clearly doesn’t have that infrastructure but it does have a pretty good bus service and the tram is good, albeit with a very restricted route.

I think lowering speed limits and introducing LEZ restrictions are absolutely needed, and to JC’s point about good luck driving at the speed on the bigger roads, it can be enforced if needed, I guess, but everyone’s going to have to reconsider their driving habits over the next however many years.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think though, that part of the point is that if you ignore the 20 limit and drive at 25-30 then it's better than ignoring the 30 limit and driving at 35-40.

All of these stats change drastically from 20mph - 40mph so anything that can be done to drag the majority of people to the lower part of this range is going to be highly significant.

You wouldn't want to be getting caught driving just above 35 in a 20 but would you give it all that much thought if it was a 30?

I've probably got more of a problem with reducing the limits on fairly safe dual carriageway type roads outside of built up areas to 40 and 50 (I'm thinking between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge here) than I do bringing limits in town down to 20.

That's already the case, rightly or wrongly, and has been for years.

Doesn't seem to affect people's attitude to speeding, though :greengrin

[overdrive]

That's already the case, rightly or wrongly, and has been for years.

Doesn't seem to affect people's attitude to speeding, though :greengrin

With more to come over the next couple of weeks. A whole series of 40s becoming 30s, e.g. Calder Road, South Gyle Broadway, Queensferry Rd, Seafield Rd, etc.

[J-C]

We have a council who say one thing and then in another breath look for as much money as they can get. Bring in trams to cut congestion and then still have a normal bus service to the airport, plus allowing a new airport service to run 5 minutes between the LRT airport bus, now they've allowed a London company to add another tour bus to the already very busy streets, The Big Bus Tours. All about money for this council.

[RyeSloan]

I think though, that part of the point is that if you ignore the 20 limit and drive at 25-30 then it's better than ignoring the 30 limit and driving at 35-40.

All of these stats change drastically from 20mph - 40mph so anything that can be done to drag the majority of people to the lower part of this range is going to be highly significant.

You wouldn't want to be getting caught driving just above 35 in a 20 but would you give it all that much thought if it was a 30?

I've probably got more of a problem with reducing the limits on fairly safe dual carriageway type roads outside of built up areas to 40 and 50 (I'm thinking between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge here) than I do bringing limits in town down to 20.

Aye yer probably right and make a fair few good points [emoji106]

[Ozyhibby]

We have a council who say one thing and then in another breath look for as much money as they can get. Bring in trams to cut congestion and then still have a normal bus service to the airport, plus allowing a new airport service to run 5 minutes between the LRT airport bus, now they've allowed a London company to add another tour bus to the already very busy streets, The Big Bus Tours. All about money for this council.

On the whole, buses aren’t really the problem, it’s private car use in the city.
Allowing the huge car park to be built at st James centre was a bigger sign of hypocrisy.
Reducing cars in the city would allow buses, trams and taxis to move about a lot easier.

[matty_f]

We have a council who say one thing and then in another breath look for as much money as they can get. Bring in trams to cut congestion and then still have a normal bus service to the airport, plus allowing a new airport service to run 5 minutes between the LRT airport bus, now they've allowed a London company to add another tour bus to the already very busy streets, The Big Bus Tours. All about money for this council.

Is the point with better bus services not that it encourages folk to use them, rather than cars? It reduces congestion rather than creating it.

[Pretty Boy]

Total anecdotal evidence but I used to get the bus to school daily between 1998 and 2004. On returning to Edinburgh in 2010 I started a new job that by coincidence meant getting the same bus I had used to school every day. Going along Gilmore Place and round Tollcross was a nightmare. Traffic would start to snag about the mini roundabout at Polwarth and continue to crawl all the way up past the blood donor centre and beyond.

I travel a chunk of the same route now, in reverse order but same idea, on my bike and the route is dead. I absolutely fly along Valleyfield Street, through the junction at the Kings and along Gilmore Place before turning to join the canal at Viewforth. I've seen myself arrive at the lights at said junction just after they have changed to red, sit for a good few minutes while they go through a full cycle and only have a couple of cars pull up behind me in that time. We are talking approaching rush hour as well.

I accept that there are probably less people working in offices at Tollcross and Fountainbridge now but even still there are dozens, possibly hundreds, less vehicles on the roads in that area alone. I'm not sure what has incentivised increased use of public transport, or perhaps disincentivised car use, but whatever it is it has worked.

[J-C]

On the whole, buses aren’t really the problem, it’s private car use in the city.
Allowing the huge car park to be built at st James centre was a bigger sign of hypocrisy.
Reducing cars in the city would allow buses, trams and taxis to move about a lot easier.


Is the point with better bus services not that it encourages folk to use them, rather than cars? It reduces congestion rather than creating it.

The bus service has always been there and now the tram but Edinburgh is still very congested, we still have city centre car parking, Omni, Castle Ter and St James Quarter all city centre and still have parking on George St, Queen St and all the surrounding areas. So we have a council who are inviting people in to the centre by telling them we have big car parks and on street parking for them and then on the other hand they then complain about the amount of cars coming in, you can't do both.

My point wasn't about the normal bus service for general use, it was the fact we have trams and now 2 bus companies heading to the airport every 5 mins and we now have a new tour bus company creeping around the city centre adding to the already crowded centre, these companies require licenses to operate which will cost a few bob.

So to sum up, we have far too many cars, regular buses, tour buses and add in tourists to the mix fighting for the little space we have, Edinburgh is still a **** show and a nightmare to drive about in, I should know as it's my job as a taxi driver so see it every day, don't get me started on temp roadworks.

[J-C]

Total anecdotal evidence but I used to get the bus to school daily between 1998 and 2004. On returning to Edinburgh in 2010 I started a new job that by coincidence meant getting the same bus I had used to school every day. Going along Gilmore Place and round Tollcross was a nightmare. Traffic would start to snag about the mini roundabout at Polwarth and continue to crawl all the way up past the blood donor centre and beyond.

I travel a chunk of the same route now, in reverse order but same idea, on my bike and the route is dead. I absolutely fly along Valleyfield Street, through the junction at the Kings and along Gilmore Place before turning to join the canal at Viewforth. I've seen myself arrive at the lights at said junction just after they have changed to red, sit for a good few minutes while they go through a full cycle and only have a couple of cars pull up behind me in that time. We are talking approaching rush hour as well.

I accept that there are probably less people working in offices at Tollcross and Fountainbridge now but even still there are dozens, possibly hundreds, less vehicles on the roads in that area alone. I'm not sure what has incentivised increased use of public transport, or perhaps disincentivised car use, but whatever it is it has worked.

Try going up Lothian Rd at around 8.30am, it's like a carpark from the Caley up to the lights at Tollcross, or round Charlotte Sq which has been changed lane wise, which doesn't wok, then the very heavy traffic nearly all day along Queen St and particularly at York Pl and Picardy Pl.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwynm4wl1j7o

Eventually this will be the future. It will get so cheap that it will be pointless owning your own car if you live in the city.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwynm4wl1j7o

Eventually this will be the future. It will get so cheap that it will be pointless owning your own car if you live in the city.


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They have those in Los Angeles and San Francisco

[Ozyhibby]

They have those in Los Angeles and San Francisco

Yip, they seem to work very well. They are same price as a taxi just now but that will come down in time as there is no driver to pay. The drivers wage must equal about 60% of a cab fare just now?


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[Since90+2]

Yip, they seem to work very well. They are same price as a taxi just now but that will come down in time as there is no driver to pay. The drivers wage must equal about 60% of a cab fare just now?


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They price won't come down, they'll be taxed to the max.

As tax revenues from tobacco, alcohol and oil all fall in coming years any tech related service will be taxed sufficiently to plug that gap.

[Ozyhibby]

They price won't come down, they'll be taxed to the max.

As tax revenues from tobacco, alcohol and oil all fall in coming years any tech related service will be taxed sufficiently to plug that gap.

Why would they do that? Surely it helps the govt reduce traffic?


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[Since90+2]

Why would they do that? Surely it helps the govt reduce traffic?


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Because as revenues fall in those other areas, something else will need to be taxed to make up the shortfall.

Removing drivers completely from the road, whether that be Uber or Taxis, also reduces income from workers paying national insurance and income tax.

The idea we'll all be moving round in very expensive automated electric cars driven by AI for buttons isn't going to happen.

[hibee]

Because as revenues fall in those other areas, something else will need to be taxed to make up the shortfall.

Removing drivers completely from the road, whether that be Uber or Taxis, also reduces income from workers paying national insurance and income tax.

The idea we'll all be moving round in very expensive automated electric cars driven by AI for buttons isn't going to happen.

I remember being told in the 80’s that we’d all be travelling around in flying cars when we were older too.

Driverless cars will be a novelty for some and might help non drivers but I’m sure most people will stick to driving themselves about for as long as they are able.

As you say, governments want to tax people, it’s like when they told us all to buy diesel cars for free road tax, look how that turned out.

[Pretty Boy]

I remember being told in the 80’s that we’d all be travelling around in flying cars when we were older too.

Driverless cars will be a novelty for some and might help non drivers but I’m sure most people will stick to driving themselves about for as long as they are able.

As you say, governments want to tax people, it’s like when they told us all to buy diesel cars for free road tax, look how that turned out.

I think a huge issue with abandoning personal car ownership in Scotland altogether would be that so many places are so poorly served by public transport.

A lot of the train system was built when we still had a system of pseudo feudalism with landowners dictating where the lines went, particularly the rural lines, to either avoid them tainting their land or to utilise them for access to their own hunting lodges and the like rather than to serve major settlements. The Beeching cuts decimated what we did have further. Swathes of rural Scotland are still not served or underserved by the bus network. And then we have the ferries. The issues with them are a big laugh for urban SNP voters who don't rely on them but they are a lifeline for many and the fleet is creaking.

Driverless cars will probably do ok in Edinburgh and Glasgow but as soon as you want to go beyond that they'll be something of a novelty. To go to huge areas in Scotland beyond the major habitations you simply need a car. The idea that any costs savings will be handed directly to the consumer seems fanciful as well. With an aging population and fewer and fewer working people supporting more and more people living longer taxation is only going one way. If we lose out on fuel duty then automation and tech will fill the gap.

[Ozyhibby]

I think a huge issue with abandoning personal car ownership in Scotland altogether would be that so many places are so poorly served by public transport.

A lot of the train system was built when we still had a system of pseudo feudalism with landowners dictating where the lines went, particularly the rural lines, to either avoid them tainting their land or to utilise them for access to their own hunting lodges and the like rather than to serve major settlements. The Beeching cuts decimated what we did have further. Swathes of rural Scotland are still not served or underserved by the bus network. And then we have the ferries. The issues with them are a big laugh for urban SNP voters who don't rely on them but they are a lifeline for many and the fleet is creaking.

Driverless cars will probably do ok in Edinburgh and Glasgow but as soon as you want to go beyond that they'll be something of a novelty. To go to huge areas in Scotland beyond the major habitations you simply need a car. The idea that any costs savings will be handed directly to the consumer seems fanciful as well. With an aging population and fewer and fewer working people supporting more and more people living longer taxation is only going one way. If we lose out on fuel duty then automation and tech will fill the gap.

I expect people will still keep cars for longer journeys although once you are no longer using it daily in the city then it becomes more sensible to rent one when you need one.
Insurance will be a lot cheaper for driverless cars as it’s expected they will be many times more safe.


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[Ozyhibby]

Because as revenues fall in those other areas, something else will need to be taxed to make up the shortfall.

Removing drivers completely from the road, whether that be Uber or Taxis, also reduces income from workers paying national insurance and income tax.

The idea we'll all be moving round in very expensive automated electric cars driven by AI for buttons isn't going to happen.

Those workers will be freed to work in other more productive parts of the economy. Automation is a good thing and we will always find ways to employ ourselves.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/11/ever-rising-height-car-bonnets-suv-threat-to-children-report?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu

This is the reason or roads need constant maintenance. The cars are getting far too big and heavy.


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