Climate change and the impending apocalypse

[AgentDaleCooper]

anyone worried about it?

[wookie70]

I can't see the point in worrying. Fairly depressing to think little will be done to stop it and many of the population seem more concerned with being held up on a motorway than the planet burning. T

[AgentDaleCooper]

I can't see the point in worrying. Fairly depressing to think little will be done to stop it and many of the population seem more concerned with being held up on a motorway than the planet burning. T

if so, can you see the point in anything?

i wonder if part of the problem is that it still seems like a somewhat abstract notion to a lot of people - famines and floods have always been going on 'abroad', and one insane heatwave doesn't prove anything on an emotional level...

i don't have kids, but i find it totally nuts that anyone who does isn't in full, constant fight-or-flight panic for the future they will have. it might sound pointless, but it's a lot less pointless than doing nothing and complaining when people trying to do something inconvenience you.

[wookie70]

if so, can you see the point in anything?

i wonder if part of the problem is that it still seems like a somewhat abstract notion to a lot of people - famines and floods have always been going on 'abroad', and one insane heatwave doesn't prove anything on an emotional level...

i don't have kids, but i find it totally nuts that anyone who does isn't in full, constant fight-or-flight panic for the future they will have. it might sound pointless, but it's a lot less pointless than doing nothing and complaining when people trying to do something inconvenience you.

If I let myself worry I think it would be all consuming. It is too horrible to imagine. I do have kids and I do worry about their future but I also can't see the human race doing much about it until things change so dramatically that the damage will be irreparable. Where can I flight too and how can I fight it.

I only choose not to worry as I don't feel I can do anything to change it. I will recycle etc and am trying to get solar fitted etc but none of that will matter unless the whole way the world is governed changes. And that won't happen with anything other than climate change massively effecting the Western World. I try to worry about things I can change or have a bearing on. Yes, smaller worries are trifling in comparison but I can try to make these things change and help my kids etc. I have always felt guilty about not having the guts to protest to the extent that my liberty could be in jeopardy. I applaud those that are fighting and they have my full moral and emotional support. The flight I have chosen is to not spend my days worrying about an impending apocalypse that I feel is now inevitable.

[AgentDaleCooper]

If I let myself worry I think it would be all consuming. It is too horrible to imagine. I do have kids and I do worry about their future but I also can't see the human race doing much about it until things change so dramatically that the damage will be irreparable. Where can I flight too and how can I fight it.

I only choose not to worry as I don't feel I can do anything to change it. I will recycle etc and am trying to get solar fitted etc but none of that will matter unless the whole way the world is governed changes. And that won't happen with anything other than climate change massively effecting the Western World. I try to worry about things I can change or have a bearing on. Yes, smaller worries are trifling in comparison but I can try to make these things change and help my kids etc. I have always felt guilty about not having the guts to protest to the extent that my liberty could be in jeopardy. I applaud those that are fighting and they have my full moral and emotional support. The flight I have chosen is to not spend my days worrying about an impending apocalypse that I feel is now inevitable.

that's totally understandable, and I hope I wasn't sounding like I was having a go - it's just genuine exasperation on my part.

i don't think it's totally necessary to put your liberty in jeopardy, though. Again, without wanting to sound like I'm having a go, one positive move would be simply to step back from defeatism, which is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If doing so causes angst, then apparently joining some sort of campaign is sort of shown to reduce that sense of anxiety, because you can truly feel that you are doing what you can - if one got the balance right, I'm sure it's possible to do this without it becoming all consuming.

[Ozyhibby]

My next car will be all electric (and hopefully smaller) and I’m considering solar panels. I know I could do more but I am trying.


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[wookie70]

that's totally understandable, and I hope I wasn't sounding like I was having a go - it's just genuine exasperation on my part.

i don't think it's totally necessary to put your liberty in jeopardy, though. Again, without wanting to sound like I'm having a go, one positive move would be simply to step back from defeatism, which is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If doing so causes angst, then apparently joining some sort of campaign is sort of shown to reduce that sense of anxiety, because you can truly feel that you are doing what you can - if one got the balance right, I'm sure it's possible to do this without it becoming all consuming.

I'll sign petitions, I'm our Union Environmental Rep and do what I can to make sure our organisation has as little Carbon use as possible, I'll march and certainly tell those who try to deny the undeniable what's what but none of that will make a difference. What I do isn't really fighting, more like shadow boxing imo, and what I really think is the war is lost already. That is defeatist, I know, but I simply can't see how anything will change with people power. Nature will be the force that brings about a change to the world's economy and systems. Remember your initial question is regarding worry. I will not worry because that to me would serve no purpose apart from negatively effecting my mental health. .

[SHODAN]

Nah mate there's a bunch of Albanians trying to cross the border or something, haven't you heard?

[Paulie Walnuts]

17 degrees in Edinburgh on Friday in mid November.

[Pretty Boy]

My next car will be all electric (and hopefully smaller) and I’m considering solar panels. I know I could do more but I am trying.


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We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

[Jones28]

The whole game is ****ed until the big polluting companies of the world start to really take responsibility for their emissions.

I’m taking lots of steps to be greener, electric car, solar panels, recycling, growing our own etc etc. but on an individual level it’s drop in the ocean stuff.

[WeeRussell]

If governments don’t care about the people that voted for them (or didn’t) good luck convincing them to change their behaviour now for the good of people that don’t exist yet.

[JeMeSouviens]

We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

I agree about your 2nd issue: the personal habits thing is just to make you feel good and that you're doing something so you'll continue to live essentially as you are. "Hey, I drive an extra 20 miles so I can recycle some cardboard that'll probably end up being shipped off somewhere and burnt, now back to my next easyjet booking."

But on the 1st issue I disagree. When push comes to shove, industrially developed countries can move fast. See moves to get away from dependence on Russian gas. The fundamental problem so far is that cost-benefit analysis hasn't got to the stage where naked self interest applies to the rich developed countries in the north. That will change, the tragedy is that developing countries will already be bearing a much fuller brunt than they already are.

On electric cars, you're right that the greenest thing you can do as an individual right now is keep your existing ICE car as long as possible and do less miles if you can. But without early adopters, the electric vehicle market will never get to the point where it is properly green.

[hibsbollah]

anyone worried about it?

I feel like we are living in an alternate universe, where we’re sleepwalking to disaster without really giving two ****s about it. Its not even Armageddon because Armageddon suggests there’s a battle taking place; but in reality there’s no battle, there’s just a sort of weary acceptance.

I’ve just taken delivery of my first leased electric car and I love it, and I cycle to work most days anyway. But I’m under no illusions that Im making a massive difference.

[Bristolhibby]

We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

Money talks unfortunately. And money also buys political power.

Without either there is simply no desire to change. All the words are hollow.

The capitalist system has ****ed us. We have the money and resources a million times over to stop this reverse, put humanity on a sustainable footing.

Now all I can see is some dystopian future, a bit like the dark ages when the people of Europe marvelled at the rotting remains of Roman civilisation and wonder “how did they do what they did and we can’t?”

J

[Stairway 2 7]

How do we stop China and the US?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environment/2022/11/07/china-pumps-pollution-eight-years-uk-since-industrial-revolution/

China pumps out more pollution in eight years than UK since Industrial Revolution
CO2 emissions of 80bn tonnes from 2013 to 2020 is higher than Britain’s 78bn over 220 years

[Ozyhibby]

We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

I don’t know the exact figures but I think yours for the leaf will be a mixture of slightly out of date and also not applicable to Scotland?
Usually those figures are calculated based on the generating mix of the country and in Scotlands case that is heavily in favour of renewables. There has also been big improvements in recycling of the batteries on EV’s. There is also the matter of localised emissions which EV’s save us from which will benefit your neighbours etc.


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[Stairway 2 7]

A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

[Oscar T Grouch]

There is little to no point worrying about something that is inevitable, is there? There is no way that all governments will come together and sort the problems out. We are already past the tipping point in terms of renewable resources, we use more than 100% each year so the what we have is less and less. We are totally reliant on oil, there is little to no shift away from it too. We are speeding towards a cliff and Capitalism is pressing harder on the accelerator. The thing that gets me is people think this will be a really slow process, something that might effect their grandkids but we are on the edge right now. All it will take is a couple of things going a different way to what usually happens and our whole food eco-system collapses. When we get to the middle of this century huge swathes of the planet will literally be uninhabitable, if you think migration is a problem now let's see what happens when southern Europe is too hot to live in, those people will not be going south! But let's be honest, if we get to that stage the food eco-system will have collapsed by then anyway.

This is going to end messily, billions are going to die of starvation, those left will have a miserable short existence. Can we stop it? Yeah probably, if we change everything we are doing right now, will we stop it? No, there is no chance on Earth that humans will stop this, we will end up a small and damaging blip on the history of Earth, the only proof of our existence at all will probably be the two Voyager probes we sent out into the cosmos in August and September of 1977. The Earth will recycle our mess back into her crust, we will probably be responsible for the death of most life on the planet but life should prevail in some form or Earth will become another Venus, sweltering in greenhouse gas filled atmosphere until our star expands into a red dwarf star and engulfs this little insignificant ball of rock and iron and recycle it into the cosmos.

But apart from all that, everything is fine :cb

[Ozyhibby]

A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

That’s pretty helpful actually.


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[nonshinyfinish]

A brilliant interactive article on how green your electric vehicle is. Few of the points above raised

https://ig.ft.com/electric-car/

That's a useful summary. Key point being that despite all the downsides (energy intensity of battery manufacture, lithium mining etc), the carbon saving over the lifetime of the car is decent in regions where the grid is relatively green (and getting greener over time):


Despite the significant improvements that need to be made to manufacturing there is evidence that, even today, overall EVs are cleaner than traditional alternatives

A 2021 study by the International Council on Clean Transportation estimates that with today’s power plants providing the energy the emissions from an EV across its whole lifecycle — from manufacturing to miles on the road — are 66-69 per cent below those of petrol cars in Europe

In the US, the emissions from EVs are 60-68 per cent lower, the study shows, while in China the gap is 37-45 per cent. In India, it’s 19–34 per cent

As energy becomes cleaner across the globe, that gap is expected to widen

Of course EVs aren't a panacea and as mentioned above, ditching an ICE car with plenty of life in it for an EV may cancel out a significant chunk of the carbon savings.

[McSwanky]

That's a useful summary. Key point being that despite all the downsides (energy intensity of battery manufacture, lithium mining etc), the carbon saving over the lifetime of the car is decent in regions where the grid is relatively green (and getting greener over time):



Of course EVs aren't a panacea and as mentioned above, ditching an ICE car with plenty of life in it for an EV may cancel out a significant chunk of the carbon savings.

Exactly. Neighbour of mine recently received a hybrid Range Rover to replace his 3 year old petrol Merc. The Merc was lovely and in great condition. There's a lot of that sort of thing going on.

The 'leasing generation' of drivers that have a new car every 2, 3 or 4 years is just crazy IMO, from a cost and environmental point of view.

[nonshinyfinish]

Exactly. Neighbour of mine recently received a hybrid Range Rover to replace his 3 year old petrol Merc. The Merc was lovely and in great condition. There's a lot of that sort of thing going on.

The 'leasing generation' of drivers that have a new car every 2, 3 or 4 years is just crazy IMO, from a cost and environmental point of view.

I guess in theory these cars supply the used market and therefore may mean that someone else buys them instead of a new car, but I've no idea how that shakes out in practice.

[McSwanky]

I guess in theory these cars supply the used market and therefore may mean that someone else buys them instead of a new car, but I've no idea how that shakes out in practice.

Yeah, but if everyone keeps their cars for 8 years as opposed to 3 or 4, surely there are less cars manufactured, which is a good thing (not for the car companies obviously)?

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, but if everyone keeps their cars for 8 years as opposed to 3 or 4, surely there are less cars manufactured, which is a good thing (not for the car companies obviously)?

Tax system is the best way to deliver that.


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[Antifa Hibs]

How do we stop China and the US?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environment/2022/11/07/china-pumps-pollution-eight-years-uk-since-industrial-revolution/

China pumps out more pollution in eight years than UK since Industrial Revolution
CO2 emissions of 80bn tonnes from 2013 to 2020 is higher than Britain’s 78bn over 220 years

Its a COP out (pun intended) to just blame China. Per capita they emit less than the UK.

They also manufacture products for the entire world, we seen during covid how vital Chinese manufacturing was because we don't hold those capabilities anymore.

You then have direct and in-direct. I doubt the hundreds of billions that the City of London based banks invest in oil every year are taking into account when calculating these scores.

[Antifa Hibs]

We looked into a Nissan Leaf when we last changed our car. We were quite stunned by how enviromentally unfriendly it was. A bit of online investigation saw us discover it takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than a standard combustion engine and you would have to drive in the region of 140 000 kilometres before it became 'greener' than a petrol car. I'm sure there are variants for different manufacturers but it's going to be in broadly the same ballpark.

I always come back to the same two points when discussing climate change. The first is that there still seems a belief that 'technology' will get us out of this mess but I'm not convinced. Since the early to mid 19th century the industries of the developed world has advanced at a frightening rate, that arguably escalated again in the late mid part of the 20th century. We reached a point where we could exploit the worlds resources at will and it's a Pandora's Box that the lid can't be put back on. Those developed countries don't want to give up their share of the spoils, they don't want to pay to protect the devloping world nor to help them fund green alternatives and countries that missed out 1st time round (think China and India) now want their turn and aren't willing to be painted as pariahs. Technology advanced too quickly when it came to exploitation and the developments needed to slow, stop and then reverse the effects haven't kept pace and aren't going to catch up anytime soon. The second issue is we as consumers have been led to believe a few small changes in our habits will help solve the problem. On a minuscule level they might but ultimately using a reusable cup for your morning coffee will make no discernible difference. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to be less wasteful and more resourceful but given the industry I work in I see so much misinformation and box ticking when it comes to things like 'compostable' packaging and the like.

None of the above means I am trying to shed any personal responsibility. I walk to work, I recycle, I rarely fly, I use public transport a lot etc etc but until there is genuine efforts from the biggest climate offenders to move permanently away from fossil fuels, to protect forestry and peatlands, to rewild and the like then it's pissing in the wind.

In saying all that I was quite intrigued by the story below which I read a couple of weeks ago. Something a bit left field like that might just be the breakthrough we have been waiting for:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

The technology thing is just capitalists trying to retain the status quo and push ahead with things as way they are, as if everything is normal and a CO2 extraction machine that doesn't exist yet will fix everything.

You can't technology yourself out of an economic system that requires infinite growth on a planet than has finite resources.


The fact there is probably half a dozen climate threads on a fitba forum in the last 6-12 months gives me a small glimmer of hope change is coming.

[Stairway 2 7]

Its a COP out (pun intended) to just blame China. Per capita they emit less than the UK.

They also manufacture products for the entire world, we seen during covid how vital Chinese manufacturing was because we don't hold those capabilities anymore.

You then have direct and in-direct. I doubt the hundreds of billions that the City of London based banks invest in oil every year are taking into account when calculating these scores.

I agree we do pollute more per head. But the point is what can the rest do if they won't decrease, ours is tiny compared to theirs.

Disagree about production. If you are saying we have to do this by head of population, uk is a much bigger manufacturer than China per head of pop.

I suppose India will be the next problem as they are going to be the biggest population next year

[The_Exile]

Recycling a few bottles and a bunch of cardboard will make **** all difference in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that will actually work is voting in representatives who will take the steps neccessary to ensure everything that needs to be done, is actually done. That means all of us voting for green candidates, under the crystal clear knowledge that life for us as we know it changes, and likely not for the better. What would you say the chances of that happening within our lifetime is? And what would you say the chances of absolultely nothing changing until billions of people die because we're too cowardly to do anything about it? If I were a betting man..............

[CropleyWasGod]

Really like this piece. It challenges the notion that what we call "science" has all the answers.

I'd like to see more of it.

https://www.bigissue.com/news/environment/to-stop-climate-change-its-time-to-take-indigenous-knowledge-seriously/

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/helifliMorten/status/1590021906291646465?s=19

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/helifliMorten/status/1590021906291646465?s=19

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That’s unlikely to happen but we’ll be living behind a very expensive and ugly sea wall.


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[Moulin Yarns]

That’s unlikely to happen but we’ll be living behind a very expensive and ugly sea wall.


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I'm alright 😁 ( immediately above the T in Central Scotland)

[Ozyhibby]

I'm alright [emoji16] ( immediately above the T in Central Scotland)

I’ll be alright on the South Island as well. If the SG ever get these ferries ready, we might be be able to go to the North Island for our holidays.


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[judas]

No point worrying about things I can’t control.

I do what I can as a responsible citizen who does care. My effect is about nil.

Listened to a climate activist earlier today though, she was in tears and telling us she ‘didn’t have a future’. Thought it slightly pathetic.

Mankind will not sniff the challenge that has been set for numerous reasons, not least that the target is too big and near and the complexity of modern societies is such that it cannot turn the ship quickly enough.

Not losing any sleep.

[marinello59]

The technology thing is just capitalists trying to retain the status quo and push ahead with things as way they are, as if everything is normal and a CO2 extraction machine that doesn't exist yet will fix everything.

You can't technology yourself out of an economic system that requires infinite growth on a planet than has finite resources.


The fact there is probably half a dozen climate threads on a fitba forum in the last 6-12 months gives me a small glimmer of hope change is coming.

Capitalism is incapable of fixing things, we need revolutionary change. It’s a pity we don’t have a Green Party worthy of the name in Scotland but the Just Stop Oil protestors give me hope that there are people out there willing to challenge things head on.

[Jones28]

No point worrying about things I can’t control.

I do what I can as a responsible citizen who does care. My effect is about nil.

Listened to a climate activist earlier today though, she was in tears and telling us she ‘didn’t have a future’. Thought it slightly pathetic.

Mankind will not sniff the challenge that has been set for numerous reasons, not least that the target is too big and near and the complexity of modern societies is such that it cannot turn the ship quickly enough.

Not losing any sleep.

Why did you think it was pathetic?

[danhibees1875]

Capitalism is incapable of fixing things, we need revolutionary change. It’s a pity we don’t have a Green Party worthy of the name in Scotland but the Just Stop Oil protestors give me hope that there are people out there willing to challenge things head on.

It might not be as black and white as that with capitalism.

As the worm turns on consumer habits and society becomes more and more demanding of greener products from environmentally responsible producers then companies will go down that path. Couple that with responsible legislation from government and councils to push things in that direction and for transparency from business then you'd start to build something within the capitalism framework.

The whole thing still has a cloud of mystery behind it. How many of us know the environmental impact of our day to day decisions? Driving to X for a day out, or flying to Y for a holiday - it would take some time to find out what those emissions counted up to, and what the cost of that destruction equates to in real terms. Of course it would also take great sacrifice to not subsequently do those things - another step people are unlikely to willingly take.

[Pretty Boy]

£23.40 for a return ticket from Edinburgh to Croy tonight. 40 minutes on the train on one of the main commuter trains in Scotland.

If we want to tempt people out their cars and onto public transport we need to be doing far better than that.

[Pretty Boy]

£23.40 for a return ticket from Edinburgh to Croy tonight. 40 minutes on the train on one of the main commuter trains in Scotland.

If we want to tempt people out their cars and onto public transport we need to be doing far better than that.

I'll add that the carriage I'm in has 2 other people in it, peak time service and it's dead and no wonder.

[speedy_gonzales]

£23.40 for a return ticket from Edinburgh to Croy tonight. 40 minutes on the train on one of the main commuter trains in Scotland.

If we want to tempt people out their cars and onto public transport we need to be doing far better than that.

Probably not what you need/want to hear but that journey can be done for around £18.30 by using "split" tickets.
It's perfectly legit, return from Waverley to Edinburgh Park, a 2nd from Edinburgh Park to Croy.
A lot of folk can't get their head around it but train tickets are not based on miles but an algorithm of route congestion/popularity amongst other things. There are plenty websites out there that do the hard work for you.
It's easy enough to do in Scotrails own app and just use the e-tickets. The other thing is, you don't even need to change trains. You can get the Queen St service from Edinburgh and stay on it right through to Croy as long as it does stop at the split station. Not all Queen St service stop at Edinburgh Park but some do. Easy enough to change their though and it'll only add a minute or two to your overall journey.
Another top tip, for anyone wanting to train it down to London, consider getting a through ticket to Dublin (I know). In many cases, it's cheaper to get a ticket to Dublin via London (permitted route) than just to London itself,,,, something to do with route subsidies.


I'll add that the carriage I'm in has 2 other people in it, peak time service and it's dead and no wonder.

that may be more to do with the time on a Friday, a lot of folk either work from home or leave early for the weekend.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198

Good to see the Scottish Govt taking my ramblings on here seriously:wink:

[Smartie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198

Good to see the Scottish Govt taking my ramblings on here seriously:wink:

Yours is a very fair point though.

You're not going to encourage folk to travel by public transport if you make it prohibitively expensive.

It'll be interesting to see whether or not this will change anyone's habits (ie price wasn't all that much of a barrier in the first place or folk simply prefer to travel by car). I hope it does.

[danhibees1875]

Does anyone on here have much experience of travelling on peak time trains? I've not done it much, and when I have done it was pre-pandemic so things may have changed regardless.

I would have thought those services were pretty much at capacity already. So the change in price won't end up with more people travelling via public transport, they'll just get to do so for less (no bad thing) but end up with requiring cuts to be made to less popular, and therefore profitable, routes to balance the books (or just take the hit - a benefit of public ownership?). :dunno:

Maybe there's some wiggle room with what counts as "at capacity" with trains where people can be crammed in more uncomfortably right enough.

[Stairway 2 7]

Does anyone on here have much experience of travelling on peak time trains? I've not done it much, and when I have done it was pre-pandemic so things may have changed regardless.

I would have thought those services were pretty much at capacity already. So the change in price won't end up with more people travelling via public transport, they'll just get to do so for less (no bad thing) but end up with requiring cuts to be made to less popular, and therefore profitable, routes to balance the books (or just take the hit - a benefit of public ownership?). :dunno:

Maybe there's some wiggle room with what counts as "at capacity" with trains where people can be crammed in more uncomfortably right enough.

Train numbers are massively down due to people working from home more regularly, so wiggle room.

[danhibees1875]

Train numbers are massively down due to people working from home more regularly, so wiggle room.

Figured they would be down generally, just wasn't sure if that applied to peak times or not.

[wookie70]

Train numbers are massively down due to people working from home more regularly, so wiggle room.

That would mean Carbon use would go up presumably. Same amount of trains but more fuel being burnt at home. There is a desperate need to have a look at how society and the world works. The vast majority of jobs have no real value and are only there to drive on Capitalism.

[The_Exile]

There is a desperate need to have a look at how society and the world works. The vast majority of jobs have no real value and are only there to drive on Capitalism.

This is what I've thought for quite a while. My biggest regret will always be not persevering with trying to get a trade when I left school and taking my first 'No' as permanent and slipping into the comfy slippers office life. I see family members (joiners) with a trade and think "that's such a good skill to have". Imagine having the know-how to build a house? Society wouldn't exist without these skills and knowledge. I really wish it was the norm that we all aspired to such things and there was an easy pathway to learn this kind of thing. Mind you, my experience of all this was around 25 years agoo now so maybe it is easier to pursue it now? We need to stop chasing the pound note and value other things in life with more importance.

[wookie70]

This is what I've thought for quite a while. My biggest regret will always be not persevering with trying to get a trade when I left school and taking my first 'No' as permanent and slipping into the comfy slippers office life. I see family members (joiners) with a trade and think "that's such a good skill to have". Imagine having the know-how to build a house? Society wouldn't exist without these skills and knowledge. I really wish it was the norm that we all aspired to such things and there was an easy pathway to learn this kind of thing. Mind you, my experience of all this was around 25 years agoo now so maybe it is easier to pursue it now? We need to stop chasing the pound note and value other things in life with more importance.

Same here. I'm pretty handy at DIY and when I am building something the day goes flying by as it feels useful and creative. I wish I had been a mechanic, spark or similar. I don't think I have ever felt I have done anything worthwhile in 37 years in an office. A complete waste of everyone's time like the vast majority of office jobs and many other occupations. I can't find the post now but another poster was talking about simplifying their life and it made a lot of sense to me. I may try and make a few steps towards that after the new year.

[WeeRussell]

Same here. I'm pretty handy at DIY and when I am building something the day goes flying by as it feels useful and creative. I wish I had been a mechanic, spark or similar. I don't think I have ever felt I have done anything worthwhile in 37 years in an office. A complete waste of everyone's time like the vast majority of office jobs and many other occupations. I can't find the post now but another poster was talking about simplifying their life and it made a lot of sense to me. I may try and make a few steps towards that after the new year.

These posts resonate with me. I’d add the amount of fakeness and people with undeserved authority really gets you questioning the corporate world.

But also the hypocrite that I am knows it’s easier to observe and moan about these things than take the plunge, half your earnings/security and try something else.

[Dmas]

This is what I've thought for quite a while. My biggest regret will always be not persevering with trying to get a trade when I left school and taking my first 'No' as permanent and slipping into the comfy slippers office life. I see family members (joiners) with a trade and think "that's such a good skill to have". Imagine having the know-how to build a house? Society wouldn't exist without these skills and knowledge. I really wish it was the norm that we all aspired to such things and there was an easy pathway to learn this kind of thing. Mind you, my experience of all this was around 25 years agoo now so maybe it is easier to pursue it now? We need to stop chasing the pound note and value other things in life with more importance.

Biggest regret of my life not learning a trade, failed sparks test at 17 and me old man talked me out of anything else as he’s in trades, spent near 20yrs in finance now in a call centre working from home, days are just spent serving absolutely no sense of personal achievement, I’ve often thought of learning something a night school tiling/plastering etc getting my own wee thing going but with mouths to feed and 40 now I feel the boats been missed I’ll be pointing my boys in the trades direction though

[wookie70]

Biggest regret of my life not learning a trade, failed sparks test at 17 and me old man talked me out of anything else as he’s in trades, spent near 20yrs in finance now in a call centre working from home, days are just spent serving absolutely no sense of personal achievement, I’ve often thought of learning something a night school tiling/plastering etc getting my own wee thing going but with mouths to feed and 40 now I feel the boats been missed I’ll be pointing my boys in the trades direction though I'm 54 so retirement is my escape at 60. In keeping with the thread I would love to see if I could build a house and make it as carbon neutral as possible. If I had an old gas meter I'm sure I can use the numbers spinning as a turbine the way the heating is at teh moment.

[Jones28]

Biggest regret of my life not learning a trade, failed sparks test at 17 and me old man talked me out of anything else as he’s in trades, spent near 20yrs in finance now in a call centre working from home, days are just spent serving absolutely no sense of personal achievement, I’ve often thought of learning something a night school tiling/plastering etc getting my own wee thing going but with mouths to feed and 40 now I feel the boats been missed I’ll be pointing my boys in the trades direction though

Entirely with you on that one. I’ve worked in professional kitchens, in shops and pubs, worked as a farm hand then manager and now work in agri sales. Whilst I like the job and the career prospects are very good a mate of mine who helped me in my unofficial chefs training changed careers and is now a joiner. He’s loving it and it also is paying a very solid wage. While in ten years time I’d like to think I’ll be making double the money I am now, I don’t know if it will have the same sense of satisfaction as building houses for a living.

One thing that I hear about with a lot of tradesmen - more than happy to be corrected on this - is that by the time they’re older a lot of them are knackered. Physically I mean, knees and back problems and the like which an office job will at least spare you from!

[hibsbollah]

China in unfamiliar‘global good guys’ role.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/19/cop15-historic-deal-signed-to-halt-biodiversity-loss-by-2030-aoe

[WhileTheChief..]

Yeah, but if everyone keeps their cars for 8 years as opposed to 3 or 4, surely there are less cars manufactured, which is a good thing (not for the car companies obviously)?

Cars generally have a lifespan of 30 - 40 years.

All Europe's ex-hire cars, or older second hand ones, make their way to Africa or India or such like eventually.

Check how many old Mercs or BMWs are used as taxi's abroad to get an idea of the scale of it.

[McSwanky]

Cars generally have a lifespan of 30 - 40 years.

All Europe's ex-hire cars, or older second hand ones, make their way to Africa or India or such like eventually.

Check how many old Mercs or BMWs are used as taxi's abroad to get an idea of the scale of it.

...and how many e.g. Renaults or Fiats do you see still operating after 30 - 40 years? Genuine question.

Also, where do the electric cars go? Do Africa and India have good charging networks for electric taxis too?

It's a numbers game for me:

If 100 people buy a new car every year, that's 100 more cars on the road every year.
If 100 people buy a new car every 2 years, that's 50 more cars on the road every year.
If 100 people buy a new car every 5 years, that's 20 more cars on the road every year.
If 100 people buy a new car every 10 years, that's 10 more cars on the road every year.

The number of cars removed from circulation (national or worldwide, it doesn't really matter) either doesn't change - in which case, there are more cars on the road - or it decreases in line with the number of new ones - in which case we are scrapping younger cars needlessly.

I'd love a new car every 3 years, really I would, but I keep my cars for a good bit longer than that (last 2 cars I've had I've kept from nearly new for at least 10 years). And on the whole, they do me absolutely fine.

[WhileTheChief..]

My general point is that it doesn't matter if you change cars every 3 or 10 years.

The same car will be around for the same amount of time, just with a different number of owners.

I recently sold mine. I now get the bus to work, which in Glasgow means fully electric. I'm doing my bit!!

[McSwanky]

My general point is that it doesn't matter if you change cars every 3 or 10 years.

Sorry, but I totally disagree!

Extreme examples to illustrate:

If everyone in the world changed their car every year, then we'd be scrapping 1 year old cars, and producing another 100% new cars every year.

If everyone in the world held onto their car for 10 years, then we'd be scrapping 10 year old cars, and producing another 10% of new cars every year.

So if the people at the new end of the market get rid of their cars every 3 years on average as opposed to say 10, that has to either result in:

1. an accumulation of more cars in the world, or
2. an earlier scrapping of cars that could have a longer life.

Am I wrong?

[WhileTheChief..]

Sorry, but I totally disagree!

Extreme examples to illustrate:

If everyone in the world changed their car every year, then we'd be scrapping 1 year old cars, and producing another 100% new cars every year.

If everyone in the world held onto their car for 10 years, then we'd be scrapping 10 year old cars, and producing another 10% of new cars every year.

So if the people at the new end of the market get rid of their cars every 3 years on average as opposed to say 10, that has to either result in:

1. an accumulation of more cars in the world, or
2. an earlier scrapping of cars that could have a longer life.

Am I wrong?

I work with figures but can't get my head around it, so will happily concede the basic point that less cars is better than more :greengrin

[McSwanky]

I work with figures but can't get my head around it, so will happily concede the basic point that less cars is better than more :greengrin

More than happy to agree with that and leave it there! :thumbsup:

[The_Exile]

Sorry, but I totally disagree!

Extreme examples to illustrate:

If everyone in the world changed their car every year, then we'd be scrapping 1 year old cars, and producing another 100% new cars every year.

If everyone in the world held onto their car for 10 years, then we'd be scrapping 10 year old cars, and producing another 10% of new cars every year.

So if the people at the new end of the market get rid of their cars every 3 years on average as opposed to say 10, that has to either result in:

1. an accumulation of more cars in the world, or
2. an earlier scrapping of cars that could have a longer life.

Am I wrong?

Remember that there will always need to be more cars on the road as the population increases and more people want a car. If public transport was free (something which is a no brainer in my book) then you could make an argument for less cars (I would personally get rid of mine if public transport was free or very very heavily subsidised so to save me a load of cash). As it stands, a bus pass would cost me 60 quid a month, it costs me around £80 a month to run my car all in (that's fuel, insurance, road tax and including money I put away for servicing, MOT etc). Is it worth it to spend a fiver less a week and have to put up with journeys that take 2 or 3 times as long and sit on buses with the great unwashed? I took the bus to and from work for 20 years and it was utter misery, like, proper "I can't do this anymore" kind of stuff which forced me to learn to drive and get a car. A lot of folk wouldn't voluntarily go back to that even if it was free. As for electric cars, they are completely out of reach for working people and the bastion of the middle and upper classes who can say "Well you can't criticise me, I'm doing my bit".

I'm a year away from getting an honours degree in Environmental Science so I know a lot of what I'm saying goes against my own deeply held principles and is likely overly cynical, but sometimes you have to look at the overall picture and be realistic to the evidence around you pointing to one thing. Until public transport is better, free and less stressful then I don't think the number of cars on the road will reduce.

Example: Go onto google, plot a journey from Musselburgh Racecourse to Ocean Terminal by public transport, see how long that would take, how many buses would you need to rely on turning up and being on time? Then plot the same journey in a car. There will be routes like this from Stranraer to John O'Groats and everywhere in between, they are like public transport black holes, vast swathes of cities and countryside which you can't traverse with ease unless you have a car, and with more and more people having to move outside of cities to afford a roof over their heads it'll mean these people will need a car to get around easily.

Ultimately, I can only see the number of cars on the road going in one direction, and it certainly ain't down.

[McSwanky]

Remember that there will always need to be more cars on the road as the population increases and more people want a car. If public transport was free (something which is a no brainer in my book) then you could make an argument for less cars (I would personally get rid of mine if public transport was free or very very heavily subsidised so to save me a load of cash). As it stands, a bus pass would cost me 60 quid a month, it costs me around £80 a month to run my car all in (that's fuel, insurance, road tax and including money I put away for servicing, MOT etc). Is it worth it to spend a fiver less a week and have to put up with journeys that take 2 or 3 times as long and sit on buses with the great unwashed? I took the bus to and from work for 20 years and it was utter misery, like, proper "I can't do this anymore" kind of stuff which forced me to learn to drive and get a car. A lot of folk wouldn't voluntarily go back to that even if it was free. As for electric cars, they are completely out of reach for working people and the bastion of the middle and upper classes who can say "Well you can't criticise me, I'm doing my bit".

I'm a year away from getting an honours degree in Environmental Science so I know a lot of what I'm saying goes against my own deeply held principles and is likely overly cynical, but sometimes you have to look at the overall picture and be realistic to the evidence around you pointing to one thing. Until public transport is better, free and less stressful then I don't think the number of cars on the road will reduce.

Example: Go onto google, plot a journey from Musselburgh Racecourse to Ocean Terminal by public transport, see how long that would take, how many buses would you need to rely on turning up and being on time? Then plot the same journey in a car. There will be routes like this from Stranraer to John O'Groats and everywhere in between, they are like public transport black holes, vast swathes of cities and countryside which you can't traverse with ease unless you have a car, and with more and more people having to move outside of cities to afford a roof over their heads it'll mean these people will need a car to get around easily.

Ultimately, I can only see the number of cars on the road going in one direction, and it certainly ain't down.All true, but still better if people don't replace their cars every time the wind changes [emoji16]

[stu in nottingham]

Around 130 bus operators in England are capping their single fares at £2 for Jan/Feb,Mar. The funding of £60m to carry this out is coming from the Government's Help for Households Initiative. They feel this will take 2m car journeys off the roads at this time.

I think their needs to be some hard thinking about public transport generally in these times. It seems clear that travellers have not returned to using it as before the pandemic, for some obvious and some less apparent reasons. I was shocked recently to head to the city on a formerly busy service. one which may have required standing all the way. There were about four people on these double-decker buses.

I can envisage more and more services being cut due to lack of use, as well as scarcity of drivers etc.

[Ozyhibby]

Around 130 bus operators in England are capping their single fares at £2 for Jan/Feb,Mar. The funding of £60m to carry this out is coming from the Government's Help for Households Initiative. They feel this will take 2m car journeys off the roads at this time.

I think their needs to be some hard thinking about public transport generally in these times. It seems clear that travellers have not returned to using it as before the pandemic, for some obvious and some less apparent reasons. I was shocked recently to head to the city on a formerly busy service. one which may have required standing all the way. There were about four people on these double-decker buses.

I can envisage more and more services being cut due to lack of use, as well as scarcity of drivers etc.

Work from home will be a big part of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The_Exile]

All true, but still better if people don't replace their cars every time the wind changes [emoji16]

Not sure the frequency people change their cars will make any kind of difference to the amount of cars on the road though is the overall point I guess. All it would do would create a shortage of cheaper used cars for new drivers, which would ultimately lead to more new cars being produced anyway. I think fundamental change in multiple aspects (cost is the obvious one) of the way we get around is the only way to begin to answer the car problem.

[Stairway 2 7]

Around 130 bus operators in England are capping their single fares at £2 for Jan/Feb,Mar. The funding of £60m to carry this out is coming from the Government's Help for Households Initiative. They feel this will take 2m car journeys off the roads at this time.

I think their needs to be some hard thinking about public transport generally in these times. It seems clear that travellers have not returned to using it as before the pandemic, for some obvious and some less apparent reasons. I was shocked recently to head to the city on a formerly busy service. one which may have required standing all the way. There were about four people on these double-decker buses.

I can envisage more and more services being cut due to lack of use, as well as scarcity of drivers etc.

We're lucky that our single fair is already only £1.80. The vast majority have ridacards I read, which makes it cheaper still.

Busses in rush hour are packed here. I'd assume though working from home has obviously impacted fares, particularly places like Edinburgh park

[wookie70]

Clive Sinclair had the right idea at the wrong time. Small, fairly slow 20mph electric transport for 1 person which can keep the worst of teh weather off would be my solution. Combine that with e-bikes with a faster limit, electric scooters and you would get many out of cars. The problem is they seem to think they can drive people to use public transport and even when free many never do.

[stu in nottingham]

Work from home will be a big part of this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, that was one of the 'obvious' reasons mentioned.


Clive Sinclair had the right idea at the wrong time. Small, fairly slow 20mph electric transport for 1 person which can keep the worst of teh weather off would be my solution. Combine that with e-bikes with a faster limit, electric scooters and you would get many out of cars. The problem is they seem to think they can drive people to use public transport and even when free many never do.

Not quite the same but local authorities here have beeh using a long-term experiement with rental electric scooters. The next step planned is to have rental e-bikes.

https://www.transportnottingham.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/20201016_131507-1-scaled.jpg

[danhibees1875]

Yes, that was one of the 'obvious' reasons mentioned.



Not quite the same but local authorities here have beeh using a long-term experiement with rental electric scooters. The next step planned is to have rental e-bikes.

https://www.transportnottingham.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/20201016_131507-1-scaled.jpg

Maybe it's different up here, but I thought e-scooters weren't legal?

[McSwanky]

Clive Sinclair had the right idea at the wrong time. Small, fairly slow 20mph electric transport for 1 person which can keep the worst of teh weather off would be my solution. Combine that with e-bikes with a faster limit, electric scooters and you would get many out of cars. The problem is they seem to think they can drive people to use public transport and even when free many never do.

It's a reasonable point. I travel the City Bypass at rush hour at least one day a week and most of the cars there (myself included - I acknowledge I'm part of the problem) only have one person in them. We are a two car family mainly because we both have no real public transport alternative to the car. If a cheap, single occupancy, low range, electric vehicle was available, I'd definitely consider it. No danger I'm going to be paying the money the car manufacturers want for an electric or hybrid car though. Something has to change there.

Rental e-bikes are already available in Musselburgh! https://goebike.uk/

[stu in nottingham]

Maybe it's different up here, but I thought e-scooters weren't legal?

Otherwise, outside of this local authority run scheme, private e-scooters are not legal here either.

There have been a lot of complaints about them from some quarters.

[danhibees1875]

Otherwise, outside of this local authority run scheme, private e-scooters are not legal here either.

There have been a lot of complaints about them from some quarters.

:aok:

[speedy_gonzales]

It's a reasonable point. I travel the City Bypass at rush hour at least one day a week and most of the cars there (myself included - I acknowledge I'm part of the problem) only have one person in them. We are a two car family mainly because we both have no real public transport alternative to the car. If a cheap, single occupancy, low range, electric vehicle was available, I'd definitely consider it. No danger I'm going to be paying the money the car manufacturers want for an electric or hybrid car though. Something has to change there.

Rental e-bikes are already available in Musselburgh! https://goebike.uk/

If you're serious about single occupancy EV's, you should catch Top Gear (series 33 episode 2) on iPlayer. I realise there's a lot of mucking about between the presenters and not real life challenges, but they demonstrate 3 cars which could be viable options for many folk that have sub 15 mile commutes and generally travel on their own.

Micro cars used;
https://www.citytransformer.com/
https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami
https://www.carverelectric.co.uk/

[Ozyhibby]

If you're serious about single occupancy EV's, you should catch Top Gear (series 33 episode 2) on iPlayer. I realise there's a lot of mucking about between the presenters and not real life challenges, but they demonstrate 3 cars which could be viable options for many folk that have sub 15 mile commutes and generally travel on their own.

I def think there should be much higher taxes on large vehicles. Would solve more than a few problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[speedy_gonzales]

I def think there should be much higher taxes on large vehicles. Would solve more than a few problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree that personal acts that impact climate/environment should be properly costed. From short haul flights when high speed rail is available, right down to personal motoring (which is arguably subsidised).

[Hibrandenburg]

Maybe it's different up here, but I thought e-scooters weren't legal?

Things are a ****ing plague over here. There's thousands of the things just lying about all over the place and people just leave then lying on the floor like a dug would do with its own ****. They're on the pavements, roads and even the rivers and canals. They're also just bloody dangerous and although they should be driven on the road, most of the people using them do so on the pavement. I've also seen a few tourists getting airborne after hitting small potholes or bumps, the small wheel radius makes them sensitive to uneven surfaces and they suffer from wheel wobble after hitting them.

[stu in nottingham]

Things are a ****ing plague over here. There's thousands of the things just lying about all over the place and people just leave then lying on the floor like a dug would do with its own ****. They're on the pavements, roads and even the rivers and canals. They're also just bloody dangerous and although they should be driven on the road, most of the people using them do so on the pavement. I've also seen a few tourists getting airborne after hitting small potholes or bumps, the small wheel radius makes them sensitive to uneven surfaces and they suffer from wheel wobble after hitting them.

Similar story here I'm afraid, they tend to be misused in much the same ways.

I've a friend who is blind and who tripped over one of scooters which had been left lying on the ground in a non-designated place. He sued the company successfully.

Apart from that, a problem seems to be that there really isn't a suitable place for them to be driven. They're supposed to be on the roads but don't look particularly safe in heavy traffic. On the pavement - which many are - they can be a menace as they are very quiet and often not observed coming in your direction.

[WhileTheChief..]

These huge electric bikes used by food delivery drivers are all over the pavements in Glasgow city centre.

Never worry about traffic lights or pedestrian areas like Buchanan St and when they're not being used, there's a bunch of them parked up blocking the pavement.

They should be licensed and treated like motor bikes. Way ore dangerous than a 50cc.

[wookie70]

Otherwise, outside of this local authority run scheme, private e-scooters are not legal here either.

There have been a lot of complaints about them from some quarters.

They have them in Sunderland too. Quite reasonable and a great way to bomb along the esplanade

[wookie70]

If you're serious about single occupancy EV's, you should catch Top Gear (series 33 episode 2) on iPlayer. I realise there's a lot of mucking about between the presenters and not real life challenges, but they demonstrate 3 cars which could be viable options for many folk that have sub 15 mile commutes and generally travel on their own.

Micro cars used;
https://www.citytransformer.com/
https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami
https://www.carverelectric.co.uk/

I remember that episode and something similar to the trike would be perfect imo for many commuters, but not even close to being affordable. I'm talking about far simpler solutions and for the most part they could probably be along the lines of e-scooters.

A move to smaller commuting vehicles will never happen without the authorities building infrastructure, allowing free parking etc and also hammering cars while making sure public transport accessible to everyone. None of the climate change issues will be solved by individual choice. It needs Governments to basically stop people making the wrong choices by not allowing them in the first place.

[CropleyWasGod]

An interesting development.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/01/new-york-governor-legalizes-human-composting-after-death?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[grunt]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/01/new-york-governor-legalizes-human-composting-after-death?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Is it different to this?

https://www.binningwood.co.uk/about/what-is-a-green-burial/

[Stairway 2 7]

Heatwave in Europe is crazy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/status/1609829457292066818

[Hibrandenburg]

Heatwave in Europe is crazy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/status/1609829457292066818

Shorts and t-shirt in the garden yesterday, I've never experienced anything like this in January. Having to mow the lawn because the grass hasn't stopped growing, mental.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlssYsNWYAENaPU?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Moulin Yarns]

https://theorkneynews.scot/2023/01/07/small-is-beautiful-important/

A very interesting read. Tiny pockets of greenery in NYC captured carbon more than emissions.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/economist-radio/id151230264?i=1000594106196

Great podcast on what the Danes are doing with offshore wind. Scotland seems to be a bit behind on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

Mind when rock pools used to be full of life? Fish, anemones, crabs, wee prawns and that? Where can I go to see that?

I remember it disappearing in the Forth mid 80s. It should have been a warning.

[hibsbollah]

Mind when rock pools used to be full of life? Fish, anemones, crabs, wee prawns and that? Where can I go to see that?

I remember it disappearing in the Forth mid 80s. It should have been a warning.

You’ll like this project then, which I’m involved with in a minor way. Links in nicely to the recent Freeports announcement and is good news for Granton in a wider sense. You too will be in rock pooling before you
know it :greengrin

https://www.theecologycentre.org/seagrass

[Sylar]

You’ll like this project then, which I’m involved with in a minor way. Links in nicely to the recent Freeports announcement and is good news for Granton in a wider sense. You too will be in rock pooling before you
know it :greengrin

https://www.theecologycentre.org/seagrass

There's a pretty cool project taking place around Scotland where researchers are deploying oysters into coastal waters as a form of absorbing carbon too. I know that's linked to a seagrass project at the same time, so sorry if it's yours and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

There's a pretty cool project taking place around Scotland where researchers are deploying oysters into coastal waters as a form of absorbing carbon too. I know that's linked to a seagrass project at the same time, so sorry if it's yours and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs! :greengrin

:agree: The sea grass and the oysters are part of the same project S. Oysters were historically the poor man’s protein so when North Edinburgh industrialised and the population exploded you would see hundreds of folk out collecting the oysters, the Forth was one of the richest beds in the world, you could walk half way across on their backs! That wouldn’t last long of course and pollution didn’t help. The project involves sowing the sea grass from seeds collected in Orkney. All very cool.

[Glory Lurker]

Mon the oysters and sea grass.

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64640215


All major road building projects in Wales have been scrapped over environmental concerns.

[Betty Boop]

Why is this not being covered by MM ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU

[Oscar T Grouch]

Why is this not being covered by MM ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGN81SEmoPU

They have discovered contaminated water in a town 40 miles away from this. It is scary how powerful corporates are in America, they lobby government to get rid of safety laws and employment rights of workers to the extent that US workers are the worst treated in the first world. The train carrying these chemicals has brakes from the 1860s, yep the 1860s, Civil War brakes on a train carrying highly toxic chemicals. We just need to wait for the disaster that will include radioactive waste and there will be parts of America people won't be able to go. Trains are mainly used for goods transportation in the US and that system almost exclusively goes through poor areas so there will be nothing done until if effects rich Americans. The train company involved in this disaster is Norfolk Southern, they made $3billion in profit last year whilst degrading workers rights further, sacking a load of employees (there was just three people on the train that derailed, a train with 141 cars 50 of which derailed). They offer the town East Palestine $25k in compensation, thats $5 per resident. The ecological damage from this disaster is unknown but very significant, it will take decades to clean up.

This has had so little coverage on mainstream media in the US some people don't even know it has happened, the Biden administration are still keeping schtum about it too smfh.

[hibsbollah]

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2023/10/paul-whitehouse-our-troubled-rivers

[Smartie]

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2023/10/paul-whitehouse-our-troubled-rivers

It’s brilliant that someone has done this.

Good on him.

[green&left]

You’ll like this project then, which I’m involved with in a minor way. Links in nicely to the recent Freeports announcement and is good news for Granton in a wider sense. You too will be in rock pooling before you
know it :greengrin

https://www.theecologycentre.org/seagrass

I met Lyle last week from the Ecology Centre. Very nice guy and extremely passionate about the Seagrass project. The benefits are quite incredible, from providing habitat for fish to hide and increasing bird populations who would rather enjoy said fish, to carbon sequestration and even stabilising banks from erosion and crashing waves. If anyone's keen to get involved the link in the quote above as well as https://www.wwf.org.uk/scotland/restoration-forth will have info soon on volunteer days etc.

Anyway today is international sea-grass day - so happy sea-grass day everyone :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

I think I posted this link before but may be of interest to some if they haven't seen it. Seems to be borne from the same thought process as the seagrass project(s) mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

[hibsbollah]

I met Lyle last week from the Ecology Centre. Very nice guy and extremely passionate about the Seagrass project. The benefits are quite incredible, from providing habitat for fish to hide and increasing bird populations who would rather enjoy said fish, to carbon sequestration and even stabilising banks from erosion and crashing waves. If anyone's keen to get involved the link in the quote above as well as https://www.wwf.org.uk/scotland/restoration-forth will have info soon on volunteer days etc.

Anyway today is international sea-grass day - so happy sea-grass day everyone :greengrin

It’s bonkers, an underwater mini rainforest sustaining life as well solving some of the biodiversity and climate damage concerns simultaneously. I can’t get my head around the actual horticultural introduction progress (I’m assuming they grow the seedlings into fair sized juvenile plants before planting into some sort of contained structure in the sea bed to stop them washing away in the tides?) the presentation I attended told us the seeds were being harvested from a population in Orkney.

[green&left]

It’s bonkers, an underwater mini rainforest sustaining life as well solving some of the biodiversity and climate damage concerns simultaneously. I can’t get my head around the actual horticultural introduction progress (I’m assuming they grow the seedlings into fair sized juvenile plants before planting into some sort of contained structure in the sea bed to stop them washing away in the tides?) the presentation I attended told us the seeds were being harvested from a population in Orkney.

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

[green&left]

I think I posted this link before but may be of interest to some if they haven't seen it. Seems to be borne from the same thought process as the seagrass project(s) mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

Interesting, hadn't seen that before.

Although hopefully these schemes and advances are used to restore some of the damage we have done - as opposed to just allow governments and corporations to carry on with business as usual.

[archie]

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

[hibsbollah]

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

Thanks, I wasn’t sure about that element so you’ve saved me asking the question that I’m supposed to know the answer to in my day to day existence anyway :greengrin

[green&left]

On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

[archie]

I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

Thanks - that's really interesting.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

[One Day Soon]

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2023/10/paul-whitehouse-our-troubled-rivers


Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

[archie]

It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

[Just Alf]

Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

[Stairway 2 7]

I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

[One Day Soon]

We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

I see that human waste is resulting in wild growing tomato plants in riverside locations in Scotland because our water company is either actively discharge waste into water ways or because we are not managing the system well enough to prevent it happening accidentally. There's a health risk and sewage scandal waiting to happen there.

[Stairway 2 7]

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/climate-activists-smash-glass-case-holding-william-wallaces-sword-at-the-wallace-monument-in-stirling?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

[hibsbollah]

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/climate-activists-smash-glass-case-holding-william-wallaces-sword-at-the-wallace-monument-in-stirling?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

I just like the bit where ‘Douglas Ross could be heard swearing’. I had a wee chuckle at that.

[hibsbollah]

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

[neil7908]

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

I think the language he used wasn't ideal but the science shows we have lost the battle to keep warming to 1.5c, which was agreed as the target. Your right though that temperatures above this won't cause an apocalypse, but they will have devastating consequences.

And collectively we are still doing very little. I think for a lot of people who have been warning about this stuff for decades, and have been laughed at, ridiculed for all that time, they are now finally getting some traction with their argument and are probably just fed up of sugar costing things.

[One Day Soon]

I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

[hibsbollah]

We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

:faf: guilty as charged m’lud.

[wookie70]

I'm probably a man of a certain age. Too old to worry about pumping these days. The sea grass and other innovations are fantastic but my fear is they will be used to show we can continue to destroy and invent our way out of it. My view is the world needs to slow down dramatically and innovate to reduce climate change. That will never happen when all politicians seem to want is growth and when very little is discussed beyond a single political cycle. Money and lobbying drives political decision making and that influence has now started to dictate what the electorate vote for too. Climate change will continue to be kicked into the long sea grass and the direction of travel will continue until the point that green technology can generate more wealth for those that pull the levers. At that point it will probably be too late. Unfortunately, all the traits and qualities that most people would consider make good humans don't get you into positions that take decisions. All the traits that we hate are abundant in those that decide our fate and none of them look beyond what effect climate change will have on them and what profit is to be made in the meantime.

[archie]

I'm probably a man of a certain age. Too old to worry about pumping these days. The sea grass and other innovations are fantastic but my fear is they will be used to show we can continue to destroy and invent our way out of it. My view is the world needs to slow down dramatically and innovate to reduce climate change. That will never happen when all politicians seem to want is growth and when very little is discussed beyond a single political cycle. Money and lobbying drives political decision making and that influence has now started to dictate what the electorate vote for too. Climate change will continue to be kicked into the long sea grass and the direction of travel will continue until the point that green technology can generate more wealth for those that pull the levers. At that point it will probably be too late. Unfortunately, all the traits and qualities that most people would consider make good humans don't get you into positions that take decisions. All the traits that we hate are abundant in those that decide our fate and none of them look beyond what effect climate change will have on them and what profit is to be made in the meantime.

I think there is a huge issue trying to take people on this journey. With the catastrophising narrative the danger is that it will be seen as no point (with references to China, India and the US) doing much more damage than us. But the no growth solution is likely to be very unpopular. In Europe I think that is likely to lead to right wing populist governments. It won't be done in China because the whole edifice is built on growth and economic reward. The CCP has delivered growth and extreme reward for some Chinise. If that collapses what then? I'm my view lots of little initiatives are more likely to get traction.

[WhileTheChief..]

It's not governments or big businesses that will drive the change needed, it's the public, and it's already happening.

Practically every business, from the smallest cafes to big pharma or oil and gas, mention their green credentials nowadays, and the move away from fossil fuels and plastics for example are accelerating all the time.

The investment and innovation is happening on huge scales, but it will of course take time to see meaningful results.

Tesla is one example of a company trying to do so. Having the vision for every car on the planet to be electric is amazing and we need more of that kind of thinking to get to where we want.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think there is a huge issue trying to take people on this journey. With the catastrophising narrative the danger is that it will be seen as no point (with references to China, India and the US) doing much more damage than us. But the no growth solution is likely to be very unpopular. In Europe I think that is likely to lead to right wing populist governments. It won't be done in China because the whole edifice is built on growth and economic reward. The CCP has delivered growth and extreme reward for some Chinise. If that collapses what then? I'm my view lots of little initiatives are more likely to get traction.

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

[Ozyhibby]

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1632345918463782912?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

There are powerful forces willing to help opposition to this scheme.


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[archie]

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

[Ozyhibby]

But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

I would argue we just need to start and improve as we go. Procrastinating until we have something perfect is not going to do the job. IMO.


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[archie]

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

[Hibrandenburg]

But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

No, it highlights the difficulty of trying to implement change when the money men and political agenda can profit from keeping the status quo.

[archie]

No, it highlights the difficulty of trying to implement change when the money men and political agenda can profit from keeping the status quo.
So you don't think it's important to get it right?

[WeeRussell]

Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

We’ve near enough perfected making controversy out of nothing in this country, so that part is inevitable regardless of how things are done.

[Hibrandenburg]

So you don't think it's important to get it right?

No, I think it's important to get things like this up and running so we can make it right.

[Paul1642]

Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

The only way to stop the crisis is an approach that is simply never going to happen. It would involve a huge % of earths population giving up large parts of the lifestyle we have become accustomed to including the things mentioned above as well as the way we buy our food (buying local and in season foods rather than plastic wrapped fruit and veg from the other side of the world) and clothes (a few good times that we make last decades rather than cheap quality that we replace in no time due to wear and tear or changes in fashion), dealing with our homes being much colder in winter, and completely removing our reliance as a society on cars.

Almost none of us in the west (myself included) are willing to do that, mainly because we correctly feel that enough others won’t don’t the same, so we would be decreasing our own quality of life for absolutely zero benefit in the grand scheme of things.

That’s before you factor in the majority of the world who have a quality of life much lower than our own for whom living an eco friendly lifestyle is in direct contract with their attempts to survive / improve their varying levels of poverty.

It’s a battle we are never truly going to take seriously until the consequences of not taking action affect our life’s there and then more than the cost of the actions taken.

It’s a sad reality but things are only going to keep getting worse for the rest of our lives.

[green&left]

The only way to stop the crisis is an approach that is simply never going to happen. It would involve a huge % of earths population giving up large parts of the lifestyle we have become accustomed to including the things mentioned above as well as the way we buy our food (buying local and in season foods rather than plastic wrapped fruit and veg from the other side of the world) and clothes (a few good times that we make last decades rather than cheap quality that we replace in no time due to wear and tear or changes in fashion), dealing with our homes being much colder in winter, and completely removing our reliance as a society on cars.

Almost none of us in the west (myself included) are willing to do that, mainly because we correctly feel that enough others won’t don’t the same, so we would be decreasing our own quality of life for absolutely zero benefit in the grand scheme of things.

That’s before you factor in the majority of the world who have a quality of life much lower than our own for whom living an eco friendly lifestyle is in direct contract with their attempts to survive / improve their varying levels of poverty.

It’s a battle we are never truly going to take seriously until the consequences of not taking action affect our life’s there and then more than the cost of the actions taken.

It’s a sad reality but things are only going to keep getting worse for the rest of our lives.

Due to entitlement and/or manipulation. People have been conned into their current lifestyle. Basing their self-worth to society on their registration plate so they're happy to lease a car for the rest of their life swapping every 3 years, happy to take an i-phone on constant credit for the rest of their life switching every 18-24 months, needing to "freshen up" their wardrobe every spring/summer and autumn/winter 'cos everyone from Prada to Primark says so. And don't get me started on the people who have been ripping up soil and grasses in their gardens and replacing it with some plastic astroturf - and been conned into thinking it actually looks good.

Regarding the other part in bold I'm not sure how any of that decreases the quality of someones life?

PS regarding the exotically grown veg, that is still less damaging to the planet than home-reared beef. The air-miles in food production is a tiny fraction of its impact on climate change. Regenesis by George Monbiot covers food production very well. Its a very interesting read for anyone interested in this type of thing.

[archie]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/06/british-eco-activists-disruption-extinction-rebellion

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/06/british-eco-activists-disruption-extinction-rebellion

I think the final sentence was the most salient point in that article.

“The debate is not between those who want to take ‘moderate’ or ‘radical’ action,” she told me. “It’s between those who are standing by doing nothing at all, and those who are doing something. That’s where the line is drawn.”

The rest of it ignores the elephant, which is that the Government has now made peaceful protest illegal and the courts are being encouraged to hand out chunky long sentences and are doing so. That’s why tactics have to change.

[Moulin Yarns]

Onshore wind is more than twice as cheap as gas, but building new turbines on land in England is effectively banned.

Sign the petition today👇
britainremade.co.uk/windpetition

[Ozyhibby]

Onshore wind is more than twice as cheap as gas, but building new turbines on land in England is effectively banned.

Sign the petition today[emoji116]
britainremade.co.uk/windpetition

What is really annoying is that no matter how many turbines we put up in Scotland, electricity is prices at the gas price.


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[archie]

What is really annoying is that no matter how many turbines we put up in Scotland, electricity is prices at the gas price.


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The prices are linked because gas turbines are used to generate electricity. What would you propose?

[archie]

Here's the current generation mix. https://grid.iamkate.com/

[Ozyhibby]

The prices are linked because gas turbines are used to generate electricity. What would you propose?

I would suggest that the electricity supplied by turbine is charged to the consumer accordingly.


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[archie]

I would suggest that the electricity supplied by turbine is charged to the consumer accordingly.


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How?

[Stairway 2 7]

Here's the current generation mix. https://grid.iamkate.com/

If people hadn't campaigned against nuclear power for 30 years, 60% of our energy today might not be from burning gas and coal

[Jones28]

How?

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

Bulb maybe not a good example ha. We are all paying in our standing charge to bail out their customers due to them going bust, £6.5 billion

[archie]

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

Firstly, when you sign up to a green energy supplier you don't necessarily get green energy to your house. But you do buy inputs that go into the grid. It's a good thing to do. But if renewables aren't producing by your logic your supply should be turned off. That makes no sense. And in any event, once it's in the grid it can't be disaggregated. If that was the case no one would ever sign on to a green energy provider.

[archie]

Bulb maybe not a good example ha. We are all paying in our standing charge to bail out their customers due to them going bust, £6.5 billion

That may be an argument that it's too easy for supply companies to enter the market.

[Jones28]

Firstly, when you sign up to a green energy supplier you don't necessarily get green energy to your house. But you do buy inputs that go into the grid. It's a good thing to do. But if renewables aren't producing by your logic your supply should be turned off. That makes no sense. And in any event, once it's in the grid it can't be disaggregated. If that was the case no one would ever sign on to a green energy provider.

It's not an argument I can even be bothered trying to start, because there's no magical solution. But I do think there should be a mechanism by which you get, say, a level of protection. It maybe shouldn't preclude you from all energy price increases, because there will be times you need to pull non-renewable energy from the grid. It should offer some sort of buffer however, because for maybe 40% or 50% of the year the energy the company you pay pay your money to is renewable.

There's no perfect solution. I don't think there will ever be one that doesn't involve nuclear and extensive use of renewables like tidal, with mechanisms in place to be able to use any excess power generated to do things like produce hydrogen for example.

[archie]

It's not an argument I can even be bothered trying to start, because there's no magical solution. But I do think there should be a mechanism by which you get, say, a level of protection. It maybe shouldn't preclude you from all energy price increases, because there will be times you need to pull non-renewable energy from the grid. It should offer some sort of buffer however, because for maybe 40% or 50% of the year the energy the company you pay pay your money to is renewable.

There's no perfect solution. I don't think there will ever be one that doesn't involve nuclear and extensive use of renewables like tidal, with mechanisms in place to be able to use any excess power generated to do things like produce hydrogen for example.

The idea's not a bad one and, once we crack energy storage, we will be much more likely to have consistent renewable supply. I do think we will need alternatives, but hopefully that's a diminishing proportion.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

100% renewable!! But they went down because they had to pay extra for the gas premium price.

[Hibs4185]

The government paid hundreds of millions last year to companies to switch off wind turbines as the infrastructure can’t cope with the electricity produced. That’s shameful.

They need the power down south but the cables linking Scotland with the populist centres aren’t big enough.

Good programme about power production with that Guy Martin available on C4 on demand

[archie]

100% renewable!! But they went down because they had to pay extra for the gas premium price.

Because renewables can't provide consistent supply.

[archie]

The government paid hundreds of millions last year to companies to switch off wind turbines as the infrastructure can’t cope with the electricity produced. That’s shameful.

They need the power down south but the cables linking Scotland with the populist centres aren’t big enough.

Good programme about power production with that Guy Martin available on C4 on demand

It will be an issue until we crack energy storage.

[Stairway 2 7]

Another major problem is heating our homes. Will be decades before we fully switch to electric heating

[hibsbollah]

Because renewables can't provide consistent supply.

It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

[archie]

It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

Well that's what I had in mind, yes.

[archie]

It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

Reflecting on this, I think what you are suggesting is a really tough sell

[hibsbollah]

Reflecting on this, I think what you are suggesting is a really tough sell

It’s almost inevitable, it won’t be a matter of governments or scientists selling it as an idea to the population, it will just be fact. Resources are finite. Just two examples off the top of my head, this summer in France when there was no rain for months, nuclear power stations were having to ration supply when the fuel rods weren’t receiving enough water because of low water levels. People were learning to use electricity at certain times and to ration their use. Showers at certain times.

Similarly, I have an electric charging point in the outside of my house for my car. When I need a charge, I decide whether to get a fast charge which will cost me more but give me more power at 7kw, or do it at 1kw,or also to stick it on overnight when the demands at its lowest and its cheaper, for times when my need isn’t great.

I’m sure there are many other examples, not limited to electricity supply but use part of the same wider pattern. It’s not always about shivering in some cold post apocalyptic wasteland of Green austerity or some gammony cliche , but making conscious choices about what’s necessary and what isn’t.

[green&left]

It’s almost inevitable, it won’t be a matter of governments or scientists selling it as an idea to the population, it will just be fact. Resources are finite. Just two examples off the top of my head, this summer in France when there was no rain for months, nuclear power stations were having to ration supply when the fuel rods weren’t receiving enough water because of low water levels. People were learning to use electricity at certain times and to ration their use. Showers at certain times.

Similarly, I have an electric charging point in the outside of my house for my car. When I need a charge, I decide whether to get a fast charge which will cost me more but give me more power at 7kw, or do it at 1kw,or also to stick it on overnight when the demands at its lowest and its cheaper, for times when my need isn’t great.

I’m sure there are many other examples, not limited to electricity supply but use part of the same wider pattern. It’s not always about shivering in some cold post apocalyptic wasteland of Green austerity or some gammony cliche , but making conscious choices about what’s necessary and what isn’t.

Suspect so, especially with Torness set to decommission in 5 years time. It provides baseline 1.3GW 24/7/365 (except for planned refuelling), which with fag packet maths is 45-50% of Scotlands usage. For comparison you'd need 2.5 Whitelee's to be running 24/7 with the ideal wind conditions to get the same output.

Regarding storage Whitelee have/are building battery storage. Think it will be roughly half a football pitch in size and will hold enough storage to power 150,000 homes for one hour. How sustainable building a warehouse half the size of Hampden and filling it with batteries so 150,000 homes can be powered for 1 hour is I have no idea...? I guess in conjunction with gravitational energy storage such as the one down the Leith Docks it could fill the gaps for renewables (https://www.engineernewsnetwork.com/blog/gravitricity-sets-sights-on-leith-for-1-million-energy-storage-demonstrator/)

If anyone has any decent reading or viewing on what we're going to do with all these spent lithium-ion batteries from cars and storage plants I'm be keen to see them. Not something I've looked into but keen to learn on it :aok:

[hibsbollah]

Suspect so, especially with Torness set to decommission in 5 years time. It provides baseline 1.3GW 24/7/365 (except for planned refuelling), which with fag packet maths is 45-50% of Scotlands usage. For comparison you'd need 2.5 Whitelee's to be running 24/7 with the ideal wind conditions to get the same output.

Regarding storage Whitelee have/are building battery storage. Think it will be roughly half a football pitch in size and will hold enough storage to power 150,000 homes for one hour. How sustainable building a warehouse half the size of Hampden and filling it with batteries so 150,000 homes can be powered for 1 hour is I have no idea...? I guess in conjunction with gravitational energy storage such as the one down the Leith Docks it could fill the gaps for renewables (https://www.engineernewsnetwork.com/blog/gravitricity-sets-sights-on-leith-for-1-million-energy-storage-demonstrator/)

If anyone has any decent reading or viewing on what we're going to do with all these spent lithium-ion batteries from cars and storage plants I'm be keen to see them. Not something I've looked into but keen to learn on it :aok:

Obviously the production process has a carbon footprint and as you say the spent batteries will need to be disposed of. I suppose one reason why they are considered green is they don’t contain toxic metals so won’t pollute after use.

Just build a massive wall with them. Either use them to play a huge game of Jenga with the rest of the world, or use the wall to keep all the small boats fleeing war and envirodevastation, depending on your point of view :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Obviously the production process has a carbon footprint and as you say the spent batteries will need to be disposed of. I suppose one reason why they are considered green is they don’t contain toxic metals so won’t pollute after use.

Just build a massive wall with them. Either use them to play a huge game of Jenga with the rest of the world, or use the wall to keep all the small boats fleeing war and envirodevastation, depending on your point of view :agree:

You can get batteries for your home than will store a full days supply. They can also help you only pay the overnight cost of electricity. Cost about £5k I think but if enough people had them then storage issues could be alleviated.


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[neil7908]

You can get batteries for your home than will store a full days supply. They can also help you only pay the overnight cost of electricity. Cost about £5k I think but if enough people had them then storage issues could be alleviated.


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This is the future imo. More self generation and less reliance on the grid. It obviously won't work for all or mean we need to completely abandon mass energy generation but micro renewables and battery storage are the way forward.

[archie]

This is the future imo. More self generation and less reliance on the grid. It obviously won't work for all or mean we need to completely abandon mass energy generation but micro renewables and battery storage are the way forward.

Obviously tougher in an urban environment. Isn’t one of the options to use electric car batteries as storage now. I know there are concerns about cycling, but I have seen proposals to charge the car at night and feed the grid during peak times.

[neil7908]

Obviously tougher in an urban environment. Isn’t one of the options to use electric car batteries as storage now. I know there are concerns about cycling, but I have seen proposals to charge the car at night and feed the grid during peak times.

Exactly. Vehicle to Grid (V2G) as you've described above has the potential to be a huge benefit. Your right that the challenges are much harder for say urban dwellers in a block of flats, and personally that's why we'll always need some form of mass generation through wind farms, nuclear etc. But we need to start shifting the balance. Technology is going to make some of this much easier if its deployed in the correct way (that's a big if though!)

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly. Vehicle to Grid (V2G) as you've described above has the potential to be a huge benefit. Your right that the challenges are much harder for say urban dwellers in a block of flats, and personally that's why we'll always need some form of mass generation through wind farms, nuclear etc. But we need to start shifting the balance. Technology is going to make some of this much easier if its deployed in the correct way (that's a big if though!)

The only problem I can see with V2G is that it requires individuals to keep their EV connected even when charged.

I have said for years that it should be policy for every new build to have full solar PV on the roof with battery storage for evening use.

[danhibees1875]

The only problem I can see with V2G is that it requires individuals to keep their EV connected even when charged.

I have said for years that it should be policy for every new build to have full solar PV on the roof with battery storage for evening use.

I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

[Ozyhibby]

I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

Most solar instals are marketed with an element of battery storage now because the feed in tariffs for the grid are no longer as good as they used to be.


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[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64886116

Another interesting carbon capture/removal idea that seems to be showing promise.

Obviously we have to be wary of putting too much trust in stuff like this and just carrying on as now but I suppose it could be argue this kind of thing buys us more time and smooth the transition to a lower carbon economy.

[Sergio sledge]

It will be an issue until we crack energy storage.

They're going to need an awful lot more of these types of things: https://www.power-technology.com/projects/red-john-pumped-storage-hydro-project/

It's planned for a couple of miles down the road from my house and will pump water up from Loch Ness during times of surplus and let the water back down into Loch Ness when it is needed. It's an ideal location for it given the height difference in such a short distance from Loch Ness and the close proximity of at least 4 windfarms within 5 - 10 miles of it.

I'm not sure if it is part of planning applications now but there really should be a condition of granting permission for new on and offshore windfarms that investment is made into storage solutions like this in order to assist the grid instead of them being paid to shut their turbines down.

Interestingly, the scheme near me is one of the things that Inverness Caley Thistle are banking on assisting with their financial issues that they are encountering at the minute. I'm not sure what sort of stake they have in it though.

[Sergio sledge]

I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

I don't think it is an absolute requirement in the sense that it isn't mandatory to have PV panels, however it certainly is one of the most straightforward ways to get a house through the requirements of section 6 of the Scottish Technical Standards.

Similarly, for non-domestic properties, it used to be that the simplest way to pass the requirements of section 6 would be to add a heap of PV panels to the roof of the building, however the new regulations that came into force this year are more focused on ensuring new buildings are as energy efficient as possible, thus reducing grid demand through efficient design rather than bolting on a pile of PV panels.

Whilst PV panels might provide a solution in terms of local power generation and reducing grid reliance, there's an argument that they aren't actually that green a technology given the high embodied carbon and energy that goes into the manufacturing and disposal of silicon PV systems. Traditionally the high embodied carbon of silicon PV panels was offset by the high grid carbon factor such that you'd be in the positive in terms of carbon reduction after a few years, but given that grid decarbonisation is rapidly reducing the grid carbon factors, it's getting to the point where the embodied carbon of a typical silicon PV panel is more than the carbon is saves by not using grid electricity over the life of the panel.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting the common weal attacks the government government again. Privatisation again but this time over tree planting

https://commonweal.scot/scotlands-money-trees-are-making-us-poorer/

Is there no aspect of Scotland which isn’t there mainly to make the very rich richer? Is there no limit to how much the Scottish Government will bust a gut to increase the pace at which Scotland is asset-stripped by the wealthy

[archie]

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/16/rural-populist-party-farmer-citizen-movement-big-winner-dutch-elections

[Hibrandenburg]

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/16/rural-populist-party-farmer-citizen-movement-big-winner-dutch-elections

Our planet is ****ed.

[hibsbollah]

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/16/rural-populist-party-farmer-citizen-movement-big-winner-dutch-elections

It’s only one result in the Dutch provincial elections, not at the State level. However it is fascinating how massive Dutch Agribusiness has managed to persuade a section of disenfranchised poor Dutch voters that they have something in common. That’s what happens when traditional working class parties alienate their core supporters, as we’ve seen across the west. I think the Guardians take on the story is a bit weird tbh. It’s not really a Green anti green dynamic.

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s only one result in the Dutch provincial elections, not at the State level. However it is fascinating how massive Dutch Agribusiness has managed to persuade a section of disenfranchised poor Dutch voters that they have something in common. That’s what happens when traditional working class parties alienate their core supporters, as we’ve seen across the west. I think the Guardians take on the story is a bit weird tbh. It’s not really a Green anti green dynamic.

Mix that in with, despite the country's reputation for liberalism and "progressive" values, outside of the main cities, it's actually very conservative.

In that light, the results don't surprise me too much.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting graph on how livable the future will be for children born now

https://mobile.twitter.com/frantecol/status/1638105034528370689

[Stairway 2 7]

A new poll says the Dutch farming party would take 33 seats and be the biggest party

An interesting thread on Netherlands disregard for the environment and why they are being told to cut nitrogen use
https://mobile.twitter.com/tiesjoosten/status/1636766534357098498

[Stairway 2 7]

Uk helping climate change too, well climate change for the worse

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-passenger-duty-tax-flights-b2307530.html

Flight tax cut sparks surge in new UK domestic flights
Air Passenger Duty for internal links will be cut from £13 to £6.50 on 1 April

[grunt]

The UK has almost no credible plans to adapt to climate change

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2366558-the-uk-has-almost-no-credible-plans-to-adapt-to-climate-change/

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/07/i-still-cant-handle-the-big-ones-the-new-wave-of-spider-hunters-scouring-britains-heaths

I found this really interesting (particularly if you’re of the ‘practical solutions to climate issues without the culture war’ ilk). I had given no thought at all to the possibility that MoD land could be a haven for biodiversity, but of course it is. I wonder if there’s ever been surveys of the shooting range areas in the Pentlands? The DMZ between the two Koreas is a much more extreme example of no-go areas that become havens-there are species extinct elsewhere on the peninsula (a rare deer, rumours of Siberian tiger) on that narrow strip of land-A reminder that in the darkest times nature can find wee niches.

[wookie70]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/07/i-still-cant-handle-the-big-ones-the-new-wave-of-spider-hunters-scouring-britains-heaths

I found this really interesting (particularly if you’re of the ‘practical solutions to climate issues without the culture war’ ilk). I had given no thought at all to the possibility that MoD land could be a haven for biodiversity, but of course it is. I wonder if there’s ever been surveys of the shooting range areas in the Pentlands? The DMZ between the two Koreas is a much more extreme example of no-go areas that become havens-there are species extinct elsewhere on the peninsula (a rare deer, rumours of Siberian tiger) on that narrow strip of land-A reminder that in the darkest times nature can find wee niches.

I suppose it is obvious when you think about it. The less humans that touch a place the better it becomes for nature and the planet

[hibsbollah]

Sea grass made an appearance In Attenboroughs Wild Isles this evening, for those interested in what the stuff that will soon be coating the Granton seabed actually looks like.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04/06/birth-rates-are-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/cnn/status/1645717111778451457?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
Americans moving to electric cars.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04/06/birth-rates-are-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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it's linked to climate change in so far as that it might actually be a good thing on that front, and necessitate a move away from growth based economies. that's not to say it will be fun :no way:

[Pretty Boy]

On the face of it this seems a positive:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65240094

[Edina Street]

anyone worried about it?

I would not go as far as to say that I am a climate change denialist. But I am concerned that the crisis is being exploited by corporations, governments and councils, for monetary gain.

Then again, I have a past history of being wrong about certain things, so this could be yet another theory that I am wrong about.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04/06/birth-rates-are-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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One of the fundamental issues is that having kids these days just isn't all that attractive.

I love my children dearly (obviously) but there is little doubt they have put a strain on our household finances. We really can't afford a house big enough for us as a family of 4 never mind adding another 1 or 2 into the mix. The lack of funded childcare for under 3s means my wife has had to switch down to part time hours. Feeding a family isn't cheap, heating a house for a family isn't cheap, clothing a family isn't cheap etc etc. I daresay it's always been thus but it feels that over the last 15-20 years, arguably a bit longer, the costs have risen at a rate not matched by wages, particularly when it comes to housing.

As the article suggests I know a decent number of friends and family who have no children and have absolutely no desire to have them and of those that do most have 1 or 2 and have taken steps to ensure that is it. I'd love more children, everything about them fascinates me, I love spending time with them and watching them grow and develop their own personalities and characters. The fact is though I just can't afford it and it would be irresponsible to make such a decision.

[Ozyhibby]

One of the fundamental issues is that having kids these days just isn't all that attractive.

I love my children dearly (obviously) but there is little doubt they have put a strain on our household finances. We really can't afford a house big enough for us as a family of 4 never mind adding another 1 or 2 into the mix. The lack of funded childcare for under 3s means my wife has had to switch down to part time hours. Feeding a family isn't cheap, heating a house for a family isn't cheap, clothing a family isn't cheap etc etc. I daresay it's always been thus but it feels that over the last 15-20 years, arguably a bit longer, the costs have risen at a rate not matched by wages, particularly when it comes to housing.

As the article suggests I know a decent number of friends and family who have no children and have absolutely no desire to have them and of those that do most have 1 or 2 and have taken steps to ensure that is it. I'd love more children, everything about them fascinates me, I love spending time with them and watching them grow and develop their own personalities and characters. The fact is though I just can't afford it and it would be irresponsible to make such a decision.

Totally agree. Scotland need people to start having more children. To do that we need to put in place policies to make that an attractive choice. Number one in that has to be housing. There has to be a supply of houses that makes it so that a young couple on average wages can easily afford a family home, whether that is renting or buying.
We then have to make sure that childcare is available and affordable.
And we also have to make sure that we have an amazing education system for these children to go into.
Sadly, I don’t think any of this will happen.


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[Paul1642]

Totally agree. Scotland need people to start having more children. To do that we need to put in place policies to make that an attractive choice. Number one in that has to be housing. There has to be a supply of houses that makes it so that a young couple on average wages can easily afford a family home, whether that is renting or buying.
We then have to make sure that childcare is available and affordable.
And we also have to make sure that we have an amazing education system for these children to go into.
Sadly, I don’t think any of this will happen.


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I didn’t think it’s just about finances and living situation.

Imo many people just don’t want to have more than 1 or 2 kids many more in the the way that the post war generation were happy to do. There are probably a lot of factors in this with the most likely being Woman’s equal role in the workplace / earning income compared to previous generations where woman were viewed as mothers first and everything else second to that .

The number of families having 3+ kids isn’t enough to balance out the number of people who have no kids or just the 1, through choice or otherwise. The population isn’t going to go up without immigration any time soon.

[The_Exile]

The population isn’t going to go up without immigration any time soon.

This has always been the case. We are a nation reliant on a healthy number of immigrants coming into the workforce. The probelm is that there's nowhere for them to live any more, there is literally no affordable housing available. I've been in the system of seeking affordable housing for 8 years now and I keep getting constantly told no, so I'm stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids and unable to afford private rental rates for larger properties.

We need young voters to start voting for parties that will put affordable housing at the very top of the agenda as not many old boomers will use their vote to willingly reduce their house price, ti's why the Tories continue to get massive numbers of voters. The problem with that is that young voters simply do not turn out in the numbers needed to enforce change in their society. I was guilty of it myself as I'm sure a load of us all were, I don't think I started voting until society started failing me. There's no easy answer.

[Pretty Boy]

This has always been the case. We are a nation reliant on a healthy number of immigrants coming into the workforce. The probelm is that there's nowhere for them to live any more, there is literally no affordable housing available. I've been in the system of seeking affordable housing for 8 years now and I keep getting constantly told no, so I'm stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids and unable to afford private rental rates for larger properties.

We need young voters to start voting for parties that will put affordable housing at the very top of the agenda as not many old boomers will use their vote to willingly reduce their house price, ti's why the Tories continue to get massive numbers of voters. The problem with that is that young voters simply do not turn out in the numbers needed to enforce change in their society. I was guilty of it myself as I'm sure a load of us all were, I don't think I started voting until society started failing me. There's no easy answer.

The fundamental issue is that no parties are offering anything radical with regards to housing. I think Scottish Labour mentioned something about compulsory purchase orders on empty properties and selling them for £1 to people who committed to living in them for 5 years (broadly that was it, I can't totally recall). That's the kind of thing that would win my vote.

It's bizarre. It's a huge youth vote winner across the country. I've said it before but the stats don't lie. House prices have raced ahead of average wages, ownership is stagnating in all age groups and falling in under 40s. The status quo is unsustainable.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/sport/just-stop-oil-protestors-force-stoppage-at-world-snooker-championship-match-between-milkins-and-perry


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[Jones28]

https://news.stv.tv/sport/just-stop-oil-protestors-force-stoppage-at-world-snooker-championship-match-between-milkins-and-perry


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Getting the usual derision on social media.

It's really quite depressing to read some of the comments.

[hibsbollah]

I don’t like snooker. And the cause couldn’t be more important, so good on him. It’s not hurting anyone, think of it as a bit of performance art. And folk threatening to kick **** out of him online says more about the people involved really.

[Callum_62]

Getting the usual derision on social media.

It's really quite depressing to read some of the comments.Stephen Hendry tackling the big issue it seems

“It is scary. Wow! You just hope the cloth can be recovered from that. It caught us all by surprise and then this happens.

For me, straight away as a snooker player I am thinking: ‘Is the table recoverable?’"

[emoji1787]

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[The Modfather]

I don’t like snooker. And the cause couldn’t be more important, so good on him. It’s not hurting anyone, think of it as a bit of performance art. And folk threatening to kick **** out of him online says more about the people involved really.

I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

[hibsbollah]

I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

Interesting choice of phrase; ‘selfish act’. It’s probably the prevalence of billions of individual selfish acts that have got us to the point we are at right now. (I obviously don’t exclude myself from that analysis). 2023 is going to be a pressure cooker of a year with El Niño making a comeback. If that dude genuinely is enough to put you or put anyone else off doing anything to contribute to mitigating what’s going on, they probably weren’t going to do it anyway.

[hibsbollah]

Stephen Hendry tackling the big issue it seems

“It is scary. Wow! You just hope the cloth can be recovered from that. It caught us all by surprise and then this happens.

For me, straight away as a snooker player I am thinking: ‘Is the table recoverable?’"

[emoji1787]

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I hadn’t realised he’d gone into satire. That’s pretty funny for a Jambo.

[CropleyWasGod]

I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

The same could be said for any industrial action, no? Inconveniencing the public is the whole point IMO.

[The Modfather]

Interesting choice of phrase; ‘selfish act’. It’s probably the prevalence of billions of individual selfish acts that have got us to the point we are at right now. (I obviously don’t exclude myself from that analysis). 2023 is going to be a pressure cooker of a year with El Niño making a comeback. If that dude genuinely is enough to put you or put anyone else off doing anything to contribute to mitigating what’s going on, they probably weren’t going to do it anyway.

By put me off I don’t mean I’m off out to buy more petrol because of this stunt. More that I’m less likely to support protestors in these instances than if they had chosen different targets. Not a great equivalence, but take terrorism. Obviously we don’t agree with their methods, but I could at least better understand bombing places of authority than hotels or stadiums to support whatever the cause is.

Cynically, I can’t help but think examples like yesterday are as much about the individuals 15 minutes of fame as it choosing the target that will have the biggest impact or best chance of producing productive results.

[Ozyhibby]

By put me off I don’t mean I’m off out to buy more petrol because of this stunt. More that I’m less likely to support protestors in these instances than if they had chosen different targets. Not a great equivalence, but take terrorism. Obviously we don’t agree with their methods, but I could at least better understand bombing places of authority than hotels or stadiums to support whatever the cause is.

Cynically, I can’t help but think examples like yesterday are as much about the individuals 15 minutes of fame as it choosing the target that will have the biggest impact or best chance of producing productive results.

I’m not sure about that. When it come to attracting attention, that was up there. The imagery would have been exactly what they were looking for and it has likely been shown worldwide and shared a billion times on social media.
And it will fire up their other activists. A bit like PMQ’s or FMQ’s. On its own it doesn’t change many minds but it does fire up your mp’s or MSP’s if you hammer the other guy and also the other side are are depressed.


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[grunt]

By put me off I don’t mean I’m off out to buy more petrol because of this stunt. More that I’m less likely to support protestors in these instances than if they had chosen different targets. Not a great equivalence, but take terrorism. Obviously we don’t agree with their methods, but I could at least better understand bombing places of authority than hotels or stadiums to support whatever the cause is.
What different targets would you suggest? This didn't hurt anyone, caused no criminal damage, delayed the game for what, 30 minutes? Snooker takes an interminable time to play anyway. But they got front page / headline coverage.

[The Modfather]

What different targets would you suggest? This didn't hurt anyone, caused no criminal damage, delayed the game for what, 30 minutes? Snooker takes an interminable time to play anyway. But they got front page / headline coverage.

It didn’t just delay the other table for 30 minutes, the match with the orange powder wasn’t able to be played. They pulled up the divide so the fans who had payed good money could at least watch a match even if it wasn’t ideal as the table was on the other side.

In terms of better targets, parliament, offices of oil companies, block oil lorries etc etc

[Paul1642]

Snooker just seems like a weird target to me. Out of all the major sports (if it can be classed as that) it must have one of the lowest impacts on climate change.

Go target an F1 race or a football teams who fly to an away game that they could have easy bussed it to.

Or you know, an oil company……

[hibsbollah]

Extinction Rebellion ‘guarding’ the London Marathon and in partnership for ‘clean air’ with the race organisers. Oddly inspiring.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-pledges-to-help-guard-london-marathon-from-protests

[CropleyWasGod]

Extinction Rebellion ‘guarding’ the London Marathon and in partnership for ‘clean air’ with the race organisers. Oddly inspiring.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-pledges-to-help-guard-london-marathon-from-protests

My immediate thought was "remember how the Hell's Angels provided security for the Stones at Altamont? How did that turn out?"

:cb

[Glory Lurker]

Extinction Rebellion ‘guarding’ the London Marathon and in partnership for ‘clean air’ with the race organisers. Oddly inspiring.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-pledges-to-help-guard-london-marathon-from-protests

The right wing tabs are going to lose their minds.

[archie]

Extinction Rebellion ‘guarding’ the London Marathon and in partnership for ‘clean air’ with the race organisers. Oddly inspiring.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-pledges-to-help-guard-london-marathon-from-protests

Is this not more about factional infighting between different environmental groups, given Extinction Rebellion's move away from direct action?

[Pretty Boy]

For a race that loves a bit of meaningless marketing fluff 'we run for clean air' reaches new heights/plumbs new depths.

It's an uncomfortable truth that many runners don't like to face, our sport has a significant climate impact, and as a Six Star major London has one of the biggest. It creates an unholy amount of waste and has a huge carbon footprint. Much of the latter can't really be reduced because the biggest contributor is runner and spectator travel. There is offsetting from London Marathon Events but offsetting is an imperfect solution, if it's a solution at all.

I can see why LME are keen to enter into this partnership if it protects their flagship event. I'm less clear on and just a tad cynical about the motivations of Extinction Rebellion.

[The_Exile]

Go target an F1 race

I think out of every single sport, F1 is the one that's done more for the sustainability of the Earth than any other, and likely by orders of magnitude. So that's a bit of an odd target. Although there was an attempt to do something at last years grand prix at Silverstone.

[hibsbollah]

My immediate thought was "remember how the Hell's Angels provided security for the Stones at Altamont? How did that turn out?"

:cb

Four dead and many hospitalised, IIRC. Run of the mill for the London Marathon surely :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

My immediate thought was "remember how the Hell's Angels provided security for the Stones at Altamont? How did that turn out?"

:cb

I have no sympathy for the devil

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/emilyipsosscot/status/1648953266863054848?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Scottish public behind drs.[emoji106]


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[Paul1642]

I think out of every single sport, F1 is the one that's done more for the sustainability of the Earth than any other, and likely by orders of magnitude. So that's a bit of an odd target. Although there was an attempt to do something at last years grand prix at Silverstone.

There are two sides to this. 20 cars driving 200 miles at maximum speed every other week (plus qualifying and practices) , before transporting the cars and the teams (as well as some fan travel) to the next county must leave a pretty big footprint.

The flip side is that loads of innovation first designed for F1 use has filtered into the road car market making cars more efficient which is presumably what you’re referring to.

I imagine groundbreaking tech is more likely to come from Formula E these days however the sport just doesn’t have the same interest and investment as F1. I think that a switch to electric will be the future of F1 however no idea how long this will be.

[Stairway 2 7]

There's now an East West divide in Europe on the carbon to get their electricity. Germany are closing nuclear power plants and the shortfall will mostly come from coal and gas. It'll be great when we're fully renewable but on days with no wind and rain we need power from elsewhere, nuclear is better than fossil fuels being burnt. Eventually storage will solve the problem.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1649043682858012674

Paul Mainwood
@PaulMainwood
The West vs East contrast in Europe on carbon intensity of electricity is pretty clear now, driven almost entirely by use of coal. Germany’s recent decisions have driven it further into the “East” category. Noon today. Green shades <100gCO2e/kWh, brown shades >300

[hibsbollah]

Some of the implications of profit first private water utilities in England that we are only now just discovering are just astonishing.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/sewage-soaked-field-stops-creation-of-new-woodland-in-greater-manchester

[Kato]

Some of the implications of profit first private water utilities in England that we are only now just discovering are just astonishing.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/sewage-soaked-field-stops-creation-of-new-woodland-in-greater-manchesterOur Great British **** filled rivers should be a source of pride in Great Britain.

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[Jones28]

I found the new Space X launch and subsequent failure all a bit tragic for the environment yesterday.

We are imposing LEZ's in Glasgow and Edinburgh so that poorer people with older cars will have to pay to drive in to the centres of cities and people who are better off with newer cars don't have to pay, but a rich man can build a rocket, launch it, have it explode, shower the launch site with particulate and call it all a success.

[Paul1642]

I found the new Space X launch and subsequent failure all a bit tragic for the environment yesterday.

We are imposing LEZ's in Glasgow and Edinburgh so that poorer people with older cars will have to pay to drive in to the centres of cities and people who are better off with newer cars don't have to pay, but a rich man can build a rocket, launch it, have it explode, shower the launch site with particulate and call it all a success.

Couldn’t agree with this more. As individuals we could probably all do more but in the grand scheme of things it would be a drop in the water conspired to the damage caused but mega rich corporations.

I try as often as possible to cycle to work to save taking the car for a 12 miles or so round trip but it really is futile when that one complete pointless rocket launch (does it count as a launch when it fails spectacularly?) has caused more damage than I ever could in 1000 lifetimes.

We can’t give up and say “what’s the point” but it really is depressing.

[Jones28]

Couldn’t agree with this more. As individuals we could probably all do more but in the grand scheme of things it would be a drop in the water conspired to the damage caused but mega rich corporations.

I try as often as possible to cycle to work to save taking the car for a 12 miles or so round trip but it really is futile when that one complete pointless rocket launch (does it count as a launch when it fails spectacularly?) has caused more damage than I ever could in 1000 lifetimes.

We can’t give up and say “what’s the point” but it really is depressing.

I've put solar panels on the house recently, and according to the systems analysis the panels have saved us 443 kg's of CO2 since installation. I wonder how much CO2 went up in smoke yesterday?

[One Day Soon]

Some of the implications of profit first private water utilities in England that we are only now just discovering are just astonishing.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/21/sewage-soaked-field-stops-creation-of-new-woodland-in-greater-manchester


We had 10,763 reported sewage spills into Scottish rivers and seas last year. Staggeringly this also appears to be the case: "Scottish Water monitors only nine per cent of overflows, and is required to monitor just three per cent - while in England and Wales, 80 per cent are monitored, with plans to ramp up to 100 per cent by the end of next year."

As a fairly keen angler I've got nothing but contempt for both the privatised water companies and the seemingly indolent state-owned Scottish Water. As a tax payer it is just enraging.

Paying private sector rates for anything in circumstances where it could be provided as - or more - efficiently by either the public sector or a mutualised model is one thing, but paying private sector rates for a literally 5hite service is just grotesque.

[One Day Soon]

I've put solar panels on the house recently, and according to the systems analysis the panels have saved us 443 kg's of CO2 since installation. I wonder how much CO2 went up in smoke yesterday?


You are enraged on another thread about something - politics I think? I almost posted a reply suggesting you get in line.

The UK is responsible for about 1% of global annual CO2 emissions. That means Scotland is responsible for about 10% of 1% of total global emissions. For that we are imposing quite a lot of cost on some of the most vulnerable people in our country and gouging huge chunks out of our public and private expenditure to tackle global warming.

Meanwhile unless China, India, Brazil, Russia and the United States make massive cuts to their CO2 emissions everything we do will not matter in the slightest bit. And even if they do take huge steps forward our contribution will essentially be so marginal as to be meaningless.

Musk is a twat. A loathesome one. We need to get off this planet though (and we need to stay on it at the same time too).

I wouldn't worry too much, the AI hyperintelligent machines are likely coming for us soon... and I for one DON'T welcome our new overlords.

[Ozyhibby]

You are enraged on another thread about something - politics I think? I almost posted a reply suggesting you get in line.

The UK is responsible for about 1% of global annual CO2 emissions. That means Scotland is responsible for about 10% of 1% of total global emissions. For that we are imposing quite a lot of cost on some of the most vulnerable people in our country and gouging huge chunks out of our public and private expenditure to tackle global warming.

Meanwhile unless China, India, Brazil, Russia and the United States make massive cuts to their CO2 emissions everything we do will not matter in the slightest bit. And even if they do take huge steps forward our contribution will essentially be so marginal as to be meaningless.

Musk is a twat. A loathesome one. We need to get off this planet though (and we need to stay on it at the same time too).

I wouldn't worry too much, the AI hyperintelligent machines are likely coming for us soon... and I for one DON'T welcome our new overlords.

Get off this planet?


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[Jones28]

You are enraged on another thread about something - politics I think? I almost posted a reply suggesting you get in line.

The UK is responsible for about 1% of global annual CO2 emissions. That means Scotland is responsible for about 10% of 1% of total global emissions. For that we are imposing quite a lot of cost on some of the most vulnerable people in our country and gouging huge chunks out of our public and private expenditure to tackle global warming.

Meanwhile unless China, India, Brazil, Russia and the United States make massive cuts to their CO2 emissions everything we do will not matter in the slightest bit. And even if they do take huge steps forward our contribution will essentially be so marginal as to be meaningless.

Musk is a twat. A loathesome one. We need to get off this planet though (and we need to stay on it at the same time too).

I wouldn't worry too much, the AI hyperintelligent machines are likely coming for us soon... and I for one DON'T welcome our new overlords.

I'm not enraged about anything, thank you very much.

So it looks like you are in the camp of "theres **** all we can do so whats the point?" and you actually want off this planet and to live in a bubble world of Mars then?

[One Day Soon]

Get off this planet?


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Yes. Go to Mars, explore the possibilty of achieving rare mineral abundance from passing asteroids, a moon base, interplanetary exploration etc. There's a lot of technological advance and abundance to be had out there and it could help resolve a lot of our problems down here.

[Jones28]

Yes. Go to Mars, explore the possibilty of achieving rare mineral abundance from passing asteroids, a moon base, interplanetary exploration etc. There's a lot of technological advance and abundance to be had out there and it could help resolve a lot of our problems down here.

You do realise that these colonies will be reserved for the super rich and the prostitutes they take with them?

[One Day Soon]

I'm not enraged about anything, thank you very much.

So it looks like you are in the camp of "theres **** all we can do so whats the point?" and you actually want off this planet and to live in a bubble world of Mars then?


"Bringing it back to the SNP, they have "must do better, C- "on their report card from me at the moment. I've drifted massively from politics in recent years because of the way Westminster politics has been, I just found myself getting angry."


You in your post #5820 of the SNP thread. Not enraged, just angry.

I didn't say there's nothing we can do, I'm just pointing out the numerical reality of what contribution we make to the problem and where the real opportunity to address it lies. The opportunity cost of doing this stuff is massive in a country currently struggling to deliver basic services so whatever we choose to do better be effective, high value for money and genuinely needed.

As for getting off the planet, see my post above. Clearly I don't mean that everyone should leave, its a figure of speech. The benefits of exploration and expansion into space will be enormous. If the machines let us that is...

[Jones28]

"Bringing it back to the SNP, they have "must do better, C- "on their report card from me at the moment. I've drifted massively from politics in recent years because of the way Westminster politics has been, I just found myself getting angry."


You in your post #5820 of the SNP thread. Not enraged, just angry.

I didn't say there's nothing we can do, I'm just pointing out the numerical reality of what contribution we make to the problem and where the real opportunity to address it lies. The opportunity cost of doing this stuff is massive in a country currently struggling to deliver basic services so whatever we choose to do better be effective, high value for money and genuinely needed.

As for getting off the planet, see my post above. Clearly I don't mean that everyone should leave, its a figure of speech. The benefits of exploration and expansion into space will be enormous. If the machines let us that is...

If you read the post that you just quoted back to me you'd understand that I USED TO get angry about politics so I have distance myself from it.

I think we all know that the individual contributions are a drop in the ocean but I don't feel we can afford to have that attitude any more, everyone needs to do all they can to reduce their impact on the climate.

[Jones28]

Really? That's your go to?

Deleted the post, it was poor. Apologies.

[Stairway 2 7]

Think people would be surprised how much co2 the uk has cut. Its down almost half from 2005 it's at its lowest point since 1850. It's lower than most in Europe too. If the tories and clegg hadn't pushed back from nuclear it would be even lower, I'm confident we'll get net zero in a few decades

26676

[Ozyhibby]

There is no way of sustaining life on any planet we can reach.


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[hibsbollah]

We had 10,763 reported sewage spills into Scottish rivers and seas last year. Staggeringly this also appears to be the case: "Scottish Water monitors only nine per cent of overflows, and is required to monitor just three per cent - while in England and Wales, 80 per cent are monitored, with plans to ramp up to 100 per cent by the end of next year."

As a fairly keen angler I've got nothing but contempt for both the privatised water companies and the seemingly indolent state-owned Scottish Water. As a tax payer it is just enraging.

Paying private sector rates for anything in circumstances where it could be provided as - or more - efficiently by either the public sector or a mutualised model is one thing, but paying private sector rates for a literally 5hite service is just grotesque.

It wasn’t really a point about England v Scotland comparisons, I was aware that Scottish water monitors far less than England, but anecdotally the problem does appear to be worse south of the border in that more stories are emerging of individual spills that are a threat to life, as opposed to just ‘releases’ of sewage (which is permitted and in fact necessary after heavy rains-I am guessing that’s the 10,000+ figure you’re quoting). And I don’t think that’s because of any inherent superiority we have up here, it’s systemic because of the nature of profit motive when there’s no effective governance. The private sector shouldn’t be anywhere near water policy, it’s too important.

Edit- I suppose I mean water delivery, not water policy.

[One Day Soon]

Deleted the post, it was poor. Apologies.

And I deleted my reply to you quoting it because I didn't think it was fair to you for it to stay up after you'd deleted it. No need to apologise, all part of the rough and tumble.

[Paul1642]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65263650

Two just stop oil protests jailed for 3 years and 2 year 7 months respectively for closing the Dartford crossing.

I am normally all for harsh sentences when deserved and don’t agree with their methods at all however the sentences seem pretty harsh when compared to other crimes.

Serious assaults and house breaking struggle to get you jail time these days but cause financial harm to the rich and you’ve had it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Think people would be surprised how much co2 the uk has cut. Its down almost half from 2005 it's at its lowest point since 1850. It's lower than most in Europe too. If the tories and clegg hadn't pushed back from nuclear it would be even lower, I'm confident we'll get net zero in a few decades

26676

Will help further. Work started on a solar farm that will power 100k homes and be the biggest in the uk, although it should be beaten by one that will power 350k. Uk is planned to go from around 4% of power to come from solar to almost a quarter, some huge windfarms coming to. If battery technology keeps advancing then Scotland in particular is in a great position to eventually be a net exporter of renewable power

https://archive.ph/YEkjr

[Ozyhibby]

Will help further. Work started on a solar farm that will power 100k homes and be the biggest in the uk, although it should be beaten by one that will power 350k. Uk is planned to go from around 4% of power to come from solar to almost a quarter, some huge windfarms coming to. If battery technology keeps advancing then Scotland in particular is in a great position to eventually be a net exporter of renewable power

https://archive.ph/YEkjr

Would be good if they went back to supporting individual households to install. That would leverage lots of private investment. Not as much benefit to the energy companies though.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Yes. Go to Mars, explore the possibilty of achieving rare mineral abundance from passing asteroids, a moon base, interplanetary exploration etc. There's a lot of technological advance and abundance to be had out there and it could help resolve a lot of our problems down here.

This would make more sense if it was other way round. As it is, looking at Mars, there's not really much appeal to it!

Whereas, if we lived on Mars just now, and saw the lush green and blue of the Earth in the distance, it would be somewhere lovely to aspire to get to!

[Stairway 2 7]

Would be good if they went back to supporting individual households to install. That would leverage lots of private investment. Not as much benefit to the energy companies though.


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Defo it's really a no brained you'd think.

Another major problem I see is people's heating. People can't buy food never mind an electric heating system. Government support is needed but the two at Westminster will kick it to each other.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interested article in the national about the nations pushing hydrogen as a green gas ie China and Qatar

https://archive.ph/72JUP

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/25/experts-hail-decision-us-climate-lawsuits-advance?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1682439398

This will do more than most govt legislation to move things.


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[The_Exile]

Interested article in the national about the nations pushing hydrogen as a green gas ie China and Qatar

https://archive.ph/72JUP

Hydrogen is not the answer. The vast amounts of electricity required to split hydrogen from oxygen means it has never been a goer, although unsurprisingly, fossil fuel companies love the idea of producing the electricity required for it.

If anyone remembers the year or so we had concept hydrogen cars on Top Gear etc around 15 years ago, this was all funded by a certain petrochemical organisation rather than the car makers themselves. Not hard to work out who would be making the eye watering amounts of cash generating by splitting hydrogen.

[archie]

Hydrogen is not the answer. The vast amounts of electricity required to split hydrogen from oxygen means it has never been a goer, although unsurprisingly, fossil fuel companies love the idea of producing the electricity required for it.

If anyone remembers the year or so we had concept hydrogen cars on Top Gear etc around 15 years ago, this was all funded by a certain petrochemical organisation rather than the car makers themselves. Not hard to work out who would be making the eye watering amounts of cash generating by splitting hydrogen.

Doesn't hydrogen provide a storage medium for green electricity? Also, doesn't it provide options for green transport where battery size is an issue (at least until battery technology develops)?

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't hydrogen provide a storage medium for green electricity? Also, doesn't it provide options for green transport where battery size is an issue (at least until battery technology develops)?

It could possibly provide a solution for boats, trains and planes but I doubt we could produce enough for cars and I can’t see us developing the infrastructure for it as well as for battery cars. I think the battery will win just by being first. And your right that it can be used as storage.


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[archie]

It could possibly provide a solution for boats, trains and planes but I doubt we could produce enough for cars and I can’t see us developing the infrastructure for it as well as for battery cars. I think the battery will win just by being first. And your right that it can be used as storage.


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On transport I was thinking of boats and trains. I don't think it it's viable for planes.

[Ozyhibby]

On transport I was thinking of boats and trains. I don't think it it's viable for planes.

Your probably right, science not my strong point.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Was talking to a friend last night over a few beers and we we're discussing the relentless climate protests in Berlin and the effect they've had on local politics.

Both of us agreed that at least in the short term, these protests have achieved the exact opposite to that what they say they hope to achieve.

Not only has Berlin just voted in its first centre right government in over 20 years as a consequence, but also the far right are profiting from what is now generally considered to be a left wing extremist attack on society.

I personally completely agree with what they say they are trying to achieve, however I find it extremely counterproductive the way they are going about achieving those aims.

Just recently there have been jail sentences of 4 months without probation, it will be interesting to see how committed to their cause they now are. That said a judge during sentencing recently expressed sympathy for their cause before passing sentence, it will be interesting to watch developments the next few months.

[Ozyhibby]

Was talking to a friend last night over a few beers and we we're discussing the relentless climate protests in Berlin and the effect they've had on local politics.

Both of us agreed that at least in the short term, these protests have achieved the exact opposite to that what they say they hope to achieve.

Not only has Berlin just voted in its first centre right government in over 20 years as a consequence, but also the far right are profiting from what is now generally considered to be a left wing extremist attack on society.

I personally completely agree with what they say they are trying to achieve, however I find it extremely counterproductive the way they are going about achieving those aims.

Just recently there have been jail sentences of 4 months without probation, it will be interesting to see how committed to their cause they now are. That said a judge during sentencing recently expressed sympathy for their cause before passing sentence, it will be interesting to watch developments the next few months.

Like any political campaign, you have to take the public with you or it’s doomed to fail.


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[archie]

Was talking to a friend last night over a few beers and we we're discussing the relentless climate protests in Berlin and the effect they've had on local politics.

Both of us agreed that at least in the short term, these protests have achieved the exact opposite to that what they say they hope to achieve.

Not only has Berlin just voted in its first centre right government in over 20 years as a consequence, but also the far right are profiting from what is now generally considered to be a left wing extremist attack on society.

I personally completely agree with what they say they are trying to achieve, however I find it extremely counterproductive the way they are going about achieving those aims.

Just recently there have been jail sentences of 4 months without probation, it will be interesting to see how committed to their cause they now are. That said a judge during sentencing recently expressed sympathy for their cause before passing sentence, it will be interesting to watch developments the next few months.
I couldn't agree more that the focus needs to be on engaging people on this. We have also seen electoral gains in other European countries for parties that don't support the green agenda. Here Extinction Rebellion have very publically changed tactics. Some other groups haven't. I think the shock tactics get attention, but they are very alienating. When Extinction Rebellion activists glued themselves to the DLR in London, it was very confusing. Why make it harder for people to use public transport to get to work? I think that incident forced their rethink.

[The Modfather]

A bit late to the party, but I see Barry Hearn is/has taken the Snooker protestor to small claims court and written to the fans on that table asking them to join him. He’s looking to get compensation for their ticket price, travel, accommodation etc. He’s only looking for a civil charge and not a criminal charge. He’s also covering the legal costs. Good on him and fair play IMO

[AgentDaleCooper]

A bit late to the party, but I see Barry Hearn is/has taken the Snooker protestor to small claims court and written to the fans on that table asking them to join him. He’s looking to get compensation for their ticket price, travel, accommodation etc. He’s only looking for a civil charge and not a criminal charge. He’s also covering the legal costs. Good on him and fair play IMO

nae need IMO. the entire point of protest is to cause relatively harmless inconvenience and spectacle in some way.

i'm not for a moment arguing that this was an effective protest, but there really isn't much else that hasn't been tried. this sets a dangerous precedent IMO.