Tram extension

[Jack]

With the consultation period now open will anyone here, particularly those against, be making a contribution?




Thought not 😆

[superfurryhibby]

Not to mention the economic growth that can come from having efficient mass transit systems.


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The complete line cost £1.043bn – nearly double the original estimate. Hardie said that bill would climb once debt interest payments were included, with the council facing debt repayment costs worth 1% of its total budget each year for 30 years.

Hardie said the most seriously affected parties were residents and businesses along the length of the line, who endured years of “disruption, inconvenience and loss of amenity”. It damaged the city’s economy and set back much-needed urban regeneration, particularly in Leith and Newhaven.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/edinburgh-tram-line-cost-public-inquiry-report


Trams and scams eh.

My recollection is that the Council funded the project, with smaller contributions from it's corporate partners.

Personally, I would rather the money was spent on the likes of providing social care to our vulnerable citizens, improving our schools, roads and maintaining community facilities.

I don't think people understand the scale of the crisis and the impact of cutbacks and lack of investment, it's affecting us all and directly or indirectly. Yes, an all singing integrated transport system is important, but what is actually necessary just now?

Are the trams profitable yet (memory tells me that they run at a loss, with one profitable year since they started)? If/when they run at a profit, I've no issues with that profit being re-invested in Tram development.

This was an eye opener for me https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62969521
More than £1.2m has been paid out to cyclists who have fallen off their bike on Edinburgh's tram line.

New data shows a total of 196 successful claims have been made against Edinburgh City Council since 2012 by cyclists who sustained injuries or damage to their bike after slipping on tracks or getting wheels stuck.

In total there have been 422 accidents involving cyclists on tram tracks.

The vast majority of these occurred on Princes Street and around Haymarket.

[Ozyhibby]

The complete line cost £1.043bn – nearly double the original estimate. Hardie said that bill would climb once debt interest payments were included, with the council facing debt repayment costs worth 1% of its total budget each year for 30 years.

Hardie said the most seriously affected parties were residents and businesses along the length of the line, who endured years of “disruption, inconvenience and loss of amenity”. It damaged the city’s economy and set back much-needed urban regeneration, particularly in Leith and Newhaven.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/edinburgh-tram-line-cost-public-inquiry-report


Trams and scams eh.

My recollection is that the Council funded the project, with smaller contributions from it's corporate partners.

Personally, I would rather the money was spent on the likes of providing social care to our vulnerable citizens, improving our schools, roads and maintaining community facilities.

I don't think people understand the scale of the crisis and the impact of cutbacks and lack of investment, it's affecting us all and directly or indirectly. Yes, an all singing integrated transport system is important, but what is actually necessary just now?

Are the trams profitable yet (memory tells me that they run at a loss, with one profitable year since they started)? If/when they run at a profit, I've no issues with that profit being re-invested in Tram development.

This was an eye opener for me https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62969521
More than £1.2m has been paid out to cyclists who have fallen off their bike on Edinburgh's tram line.

New data shows a total of 196 successful claims have been made against Edinburgh City Council since 2012 by cyclists who sustained injuries or damage to their bike after slipping on tracks or getting wheels stuck.

In total there have been 422 accidents involving cyclists on tram tracks.

The vast majority of these occurred on Princes Street and around Haymarket.

There should be no more payments to cyclists now due to the improved design of cycle ways around the tram.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Two things are true imo, the trams were mismanaged brutally just like every public sector building project in the uk the overspend was disgusting. Also true is they are brilliant well used, get cars and busses of the road, green and mass transit encourages financial growth and in a larger spread area than the centre

[superfurryhibby]

Two things are true imo, the trams were mismanaged brutally just like every public sector building project in the uk the overspend was disgusting. Also true is they are brilliant well used, get cars and busses of the road, green and mass transit encourages financial growth and in a larger spread area than the centre

A lot of claims there and not a huge amount of substance.

"Hardie said the most seriously affected parties were residents and businesses along the length of the line, who endured years of “disruption, inconvenience and loss of amenity”. It damaged the city’s economy and set back much-needed urban regeneration, particularly in Leith and Newhaven"

How does this reconcile with your "encouraging financial growth and in a larger spread than the city centre" "

What about the social care crisis, the crumbling and underfunded schools, the threat to community resources? How do you measure that v expanding the Tram network?

IN terms of the green argument, how many journeys via tram will it take to offset the massive carbon footprint caused by constructing them? I would hazard a guess and say we will be into the decades, rather than years on that one.

If the Trams return to profit (my recollection is that they have made a profit once in the ten years they have been running, obviously covid was a factor for a few years ), then they can use those profits to service the 1% of the total council budget debt they incurred (for 30 years!).

[Jack]

There should be no more payments to cyclists now due to the improved design of cycle ways around the tram.


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Totally agree. Cyclists should be made to dismount when close to or crossing the tracks.

[lapsedhibee]

Totally agree. Cyclists should be made to dismount when close to or crossing the tracks.

Nah. They should be learned how to cross them safely at their school Cycling Proficiency classes.

[superfurryhibby]

Totally agree. Cyclists should be made to dismount when close to or crossing the tracks.


Nah. They should be learned how to cross them safely at their school Cycling Proficiency classes.

Or maybe the design of the tracks in key sections should have been such that it didn't pose a risk to life and limb of people using a much greener form of transport.

The claims against the council weren't upheld because some daftie can't cycle properly.

[overdrive]

I'm guessing you didnae ken that LRT buses have been going there for decades.

I'm lucky in that I live less than 10 minutes slow walk from Bankhead tram stop, less than 10 minutes slow walk from South Gyle train station and probably 15-20 minute walk from Edinburgh Park train/tram station. I have a number of buses that go nearby too (though admittedly, since they've started messing around with routes, they aren't quite as good).

Before the tram extension and the messing around with bus routes, I would generally either get the train from South Gyle into Waverley and walk or the tram into York Place / St Andrew Sq and walk. They were both so much quicker than the bus and that was at a time when I could get a bus directly into Leith. The train obviously was much faster but less frequent and I would quite often have time at the other end.

Now, I get the tram every time. I wander out of my house at 13.50 and I'm in the ground in plenty of time. The odd time the tram has been off for whatever reason and I've got the bus, I've missed kick off. Generally gets stuck in the city centre.

The off-street bits are particularly quick. That's why I think despite the loss of green space, that it is right they are going for the Roseburn option compared to the Orchard Brae option. Saying that, the on street bits of the current route are fast as well.

[Ozyhibby]

Or maybe the design of the tracks in key sections should have been such that it didn't pose a risk to life and limb of people using a much greener form of transport.

The claims against the council weren't upheld because some daftie can't cycle properly.

I agree that the design on the first phase of the trams was poor for cyclists but these problems have all been rectified. The trams have been a fantastic success for Edinburgh and the skills the city has now developed in building tram lines should be put to good use now in expanding the network.


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[Pretty Boy]

I agree that the design on the first phase of the trams was poor for cyclists but these problems have all been rectified. The trams have been a fantastic success for Edinburgh and the skills the city has now developed in building tram lines should be put to good use now in expanding the network.


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I don't think the shambles that is Picardly Place/Leith Street/Broughton Street and Leith Walk more generally is even close to rectified.

The design in that area is ludicrous with cyclists and pedestrians having to repeatedly cross roads and tram lines. It wouldn't be so bad if you could say it encouraged smoother traffic flow for cars (even if that flies in the face of the councils own transport hierarchy) but it's a bottle neck for them and drivers hate it too. As far as design goes it's a spectacular example in how not to do it. Ugly, dirty and inefficient for all road users.

Leith Walk in general has improved somewhat but the cycle lane is a mess in terms of surface and also how it interacts with pedestrianised areas and also the provision for cars to enter Leith Walk. The litany of near misses has seen access routes closed as they were fundamentally unsafe for non motorised road users.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240201/80630ec17100984aaf3c74d3def8845c.png

Something like this should be the goal.


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[Stairway 2 7]

A lot of claims there and not a huge amount of substance.

"Hardie said the most seriously affected parties were residents and businesses along the length of the line, who endured years of “disruption, inconvenience and loss of amenity”. It damaged the city’s economy and set back much-needed urban regeneration, particularly in Leith and Newhaven"

How does this reconcile with your "encouraging financial growth and in a larger spread than the city centre" "

What about the social care crisis, the crumbling and underfunded schools, the threat to community resources? How do you measure that v expanding the Tram network?

IN terms of the green argument, how many journeys via tram will it take to offset the massive carbon footprint caused by constructing them? I would hazard a guess and say we will be into the decades, rather than years on that one.

If the Trams return to profit (my recollection is that they have made a profit once in the ten years they have been running, obviously covid was a factor for a few years ), then they can use those profits to service the 1% of the total council budget debt they incurred (for 30 years!).

You say no substance but then put in your green calculations.

I said they are well used the last non covid year had 8 million passengers. It will be interesting to see this year's as the council say the new line to leith doubled passenger numbers. Last August set a record month 1.3 million. We'll see in April but I think well used is appropriate.

I've no idea the co2 in the production but they will soon be powered by renewable energy and omit zero co2. For air quality there is no comparison clean air with no pollution spewed out like cars

On average in the uk 27% of tram users were previously car users. Edinburgh say before the extension it was 20% during the week 50% at weekends. We simply need less cars on the road
https://airqualitynews.com/uncategorised/why-a-tram-system-can-significantly-improve-urban-air-quality/

There's multiple studies that show economic benefits of better public transport. ATPA study showed every pound spent on public transport creates £5 in economic impact for a city.
https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/economic-impact-of-public-transportation-investment/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-08-14/public-transit-is-worth-way-more-to-a-city-than-you-might-think
Every time a metro area added about 4 seats to rails and buses per 1,000 residents, the central city ended up with 320 more employees per square mile — an increase of 19 percent. Adding 85 rail miles delivered a 7 percent increase. A 10 percent expansion in transit service (by adding either rail and bus seats or rail miles) produced a wage increase between $53 and $194 per worker per year in the city center. The gross metropolitan product rose between 1 and 2 percent, too

It also benefits poorer people more. 37% of the poorest fifth of households did not have access to a car, compared with just 8.3% of the richest fifth of households.

Uk is the sick mam of Europe when it comes to public transport, this graph is appalling
27656

They don't have to turn a profit getting clean air, cars of the road and encouraging growth is enough in my opinion

[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240201/80630ec17100984aaf3c74d3def8845c.png

Something like this should be the goal.


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Definitely. I think it'll kick on now the leith line is open and hospital and Granton lines open. Would be great going to Portobello Musselburgh and over to Fife the other way

[superfurryhibby]

You say no substance but then put in your green calculations.

I said they are well used the last non covid year had 8 million passengers. It will be interesting to see this year's as the council say the new line to leith doubled passenger numbers. Last August set a record month 1.3 million. We'll see in April but I think well used is appropriate.

I've no idea the co2 in the production but they will soon be powered by renewable energy and omit zero co2. For air quality there is no comparison clean air with no pollution spewed out like cars

On average in the uk 27% of tram users were previously car users. Edinburgh say before the extension it was 20% during the week 50% at weekends. We simply need less cars on the road
https://airqualitynews.com/uncategorised/why-a-tram-system-can-significantly-improve-urban-air-quality/

There's multiple studies that show economic benefits of better public transport. ATPA study showed every pound spent on public transport creates £5 in economic impact for a city.
https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-reports/economic-impact-of-public-transportation-investment/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-08-14/public-transit-is-worth-way-more-to-a-city-than-you-might-think
Every time a metro area added about 4 seats to rails and buses per 1,000 residents, the central city ended up with 320 more employees per square mile — an increase of 19 percent. Adding 85 rail miles delivered a 7 percent increase. A 10 percent expansion in transit service (by adding either rail and bus seats or rail miles) produced a wage increase between $53 and $194 per worker per year in the city center. The gross metropolitan product rose between 1 and 2 percent, too

It also benefits poorer people more. 37% of the poorest fifth of households did not have access to a car, compared with just 8.3% of the richest fifth of households.

Uk is the sick mam of Europe when it comes to public transport, this graph is appalling
27656

They don't have to turn a profit getting clean air, cars of the road and encouraging growth is enough in my opinion

My green calculations, I said I had no idea, but I hazarded a guess that it would be many, many years before the carbon footprint of building the Trams was offset by their use. I think that was fairly clear.

I did however quote from the Hardie report which said that the Trams inhibited economic development in Leith and Newhaven (Leith being the biggest and most densely populated area of Edinburgh).

No one is debating that a good public transport infrastructure is beneficial to all (don't we already have a pretty impressive bus network?) . I think your just deflecting and can't answer the point made about the massive cost, impact on local economies, quality of life and the crisis facing municipal service provision.

Any Tram extension is madness, we can't afford it, it will inhibit economic progress and it will drag the city back into the carnage we have all endured for 20 years. I don't think it will happen, there are other more pressing issues facing the City of Edinburgh

[Stairway 2 7]

My green calculations, I said I had no idea, but I hazarded a guess that it would be many, many years before the carbon footprint of building the Trams was offset by their use. I think that was fairly clear.

I did however quote from the Hardie report which said that the Trams inhibited economic development in Leith and Newhaven (Leith being the biggest and most densely populated area of Edinburgh).

No one is debating that a good public transport infrastructure is beneficial to all (don't we already have a pretty impressive bus network?) . I think your just deflecting and can't answer the point made about the massive cost, impact on local economies, quality of life and the crisis facing municipal service provision.

Any Tram extension is madness, we can't afford it, it will inhibit economic progress and it will drag the city back into the carnage we have all endured for 20 years. I don't think it will happen, there are other more pressing issues facing the City of Edinburgh

Have any studies that show it will inhibit economic progress because everyone I can see says there is massive economic benefit. Even if the £1 equalling £5 of economic benefit is wrong I think it would be mental to say spending on increased public transport is a net loss to an economy. It obviously causes economic pain when building and disruption to traffic but this is about the future. The Hardie report was talking about pain during the disruption not the obviously benefits after.

Quality of life will be improved in every area that gets the Tram (obviously not during the build) cleaner air not harming people, faster public transport with a higher capacity, a clear economic benefit for the areas involved in every study I've seen. It's a no brainer.

[Ozyhibby]

Have any studies that show it will inhibit economic progress because everyone I can see says there is massive economic benefit. Even if the £1 equalling £5 of economic benefit is wrong I think it would be mental to say spending on increased public transport is a net loss to an economy. It obviously causes economic pain when building and disruption to traffic but this is about the future. The Hardie report was talking about pain during the disruption not the obviously benefits after.

Quality of life will be improved in every area that gets the Tram (obviously not during the build) cleaner air not harming people, faster public transport with a higher capacity, a clear economic benefit for the areas involved in every study I've seen. It's a no brainer.

The rise in house prices close to tram stops is evidence that people value the tram.


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[superfurryhibby]

Anyone who is interested enough can read the Hardie report. It is absolutely grim, a take of shocking incompetence at every turn. The costs were horrific and made much worse by criminally poor project management.

The idea that we let these jokers start extending Trams again is madness.

https://www.edinburghtraminquiry.org/final_report/the-inquiry-report/chapter-24/

[Ozyhibby]

Anyone who is interested enough can read the Hardie report. It is absolutely grim, a take of shocking incompetence at every turn. The costs were horrific and made much worse by criminally poor project management.

The idea that we let these jokers start extending Trams again is madness.

https://www.edinburghtraminquiry.org/final_report/the-inquiry-report/chapter-24/

Surely the speed and cost of the extension to Newhaven is more relevant?


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[lapsedhibee]

Or maybe the design of the tracks in key sections should have been such that it didn't pose a risk to life and limb of people using a much greener form of transport.

The claims against the council weren't upheld because some daftie can't cycle properly.

I was replying to a comment about cyclists dismounting whenever they came to a tramline, not about whose fault it is that cyclists and trams are sharing roadspace. On Princes St you'd be on and off the bike like a ****** ******* .

[Pete70]

I don’t think line to Newhaven is an extension to the route. Was the airport to Newhaven not the original planned route which was budgeted for? The line stopped at York Place for several reasons. 2 of which were lack of money and that the preparatory works on Leith Walk being more complicated than expected. The actual tram extension was meant to be from Granton back to the City Centre if I remember correctly. I could be wrong though.

[overdrive]

I don't think the shambles that is Picardly Place/Leith Street/Broughton Street and Leith Walk more generally is even close to rectified.

The design in that area is ludicrous with cyclists and pedestrians having to repeatedly cross roads and tram lines. It wouldn't be so bad if you could say it encouraged smoother traffic flow for cars (even if that flies in the face of the councils own transport hierarchy) but it's a bottle neck for them and drivers hate it too. As far as design goes it's a spectacular example in how not to do it. Ugly, dirty and inefficient for all road users.

Leith Walk in general has improved somewhat but the cycle lane is a mess in terms of surface and also how it interacts with pedestrianised areas and also the provision for cars to enter Leith Walk. The litany of near misses has seen access routes closed as they were fundamentally unsafe for non motorised road users.

That bit isn't great for pedestrians either. I was coming home from Seafield a few weeks ago, so I got the #1 bus to Leith Street and crossed to get the tram. It took 5 minutes to get from the stop outside Edinburgh Street Food to the tram stop. I'd have been better getting off on London Rd and walking down to the McDonald Rd tram stop.

As someone who used to live in that neck of the woods, it was definitely worse than it was before. It is almost as if 'they' said to themselves "what can we do to annoy cyclists, pedestrians and drivers and how do we implement it?"

I lived there during much of the tram works and the stuff they did with the cycle lanes during the works was mental. Looks like they didn't learn their lesson. As a pedestrian, I really don't like where the cycle lanes and the pavements merge so closely. I get it is a lot better for cyclists not to have it as part of the road. The floating bus stops are a disaster waiting to happen. Surely there has to be a better solution. Don't get me started on the cycle lanes near me where the elevated signage contradicts the on pavement signage as to which side is the cycle lane and which is the pedestrian lane.

[lapsedhibee]

As a pedestrian, I really don't like where the cycle lanes and the pavements merge so closely. I get it is a lot better for cyclists not to have it as part of the road.

Perhaps arguable. As part of the road you only have to worry about yourself getting injured, whereas on the Leith Walk cycle lanes you've to worry about injuring 727502636 other people as well as yourself.

[overdrive]

I don’t think line to Newhaven is an extension to the route. Was the airport to Newhaven not the original planned route which was budgeted for? The line stopped at York Place for several reasons. 2 of which were lack of money and that the preparatory works on Leith Walk being more complicated than expected. The actual tram extension was meant to be from Granton back to the City Centre if I remember correctly. I could be wrong though.

It is hard to really say what is an extension as what we have is a Frankenstein's monster of routes put together. The original plan wasn't a direct airport - Newhaven line, it was was three separate lines.

Line 1 - a northern circle line which basically combines the Newhaven - Haymarket stretch that exists today with the proposed Haymarket - Granton stretch (except I think it was to use all of that Roseburn path rather than deviate off to the Western) and a stretch connecting Granton and Newhaven

Line 2 - a western line. St Andrew Sq running the route of what was built first, out to the airport but with an additional branch out to Newbridge.

Line 3 - a southern line from Waverley to Newcraighall although the route was never finalised. It was dependent on the congestion charge being brought in so was duly scrapped. I'm guessing some of this will come to fruition with the new North-South Line.

What we have now is basically parts of Line 1 and Line 2 merged together to form one service. What we have with the new proposal is parts of Line 2 and Line 3 merged together with potential for other routes as they are talking about having trams turn right at Russel Rd towards the Airport as well as turning left towards Haymarket.

[Lendo]

The new proposed Roseburn Path stretch of tram line is pretty disappointing for me personally. Use the path regularly for running and cycling and the idea that cyclists will be banned from using it is mad considering they have just spent £12m on the Union Canal/Roseburn connection.

Also seems to me that future plans seem to forget the existence of Barberton, Juniper Green, Currie and Balerno.

[speedy_gonzales]

The new proposed Roseburn Path stretch of tram line is pretty disappointing for me personally. Use the path regularly for running and cycling and the idea that cyclists will be banned from using it is mad considering they have just spent £12m on the Union Canal/Roseburn connection.

Also seems to me that future plans seem to forget the existence of Barberton, Juniper Green, Currie and Balerno.

Not banned, the language they are using is dissuaded.
Agree with you re the south-west connectivity. I have seen a mock-up of potential future lines and if the service frequency is anything like the current trams then it will be brilliant, but probably not built until 2050....

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/createstreets/status/1754129344392266162?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Just put this in here as it’s about roadworks and didn’t want to start another thread. Interesting thread about a long term problem with an easy fix.


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