Housing

[superfurryhibby]

As part of my awakening to the realisation that all mainstream political parties lack the will to make the changes our citizens need to access fair rental accommodation, I've been drawn towards community activist groups. Living Rent are doing fantastic work in our communities, across a whole range of issues. I really welcome the support they are providing to people in their struggles with exploitative landlords.

"Leith Members Stuart and Rory and Violette and Fatima from Fountainbridge, just won a total £5300 of rent rebates in negotiation with DJ Alexander!

Stuart and Rory had gone without heating for a year, and Violette, Fatima and their flatmates had broken drafty windows, mould and painted-over lights with no action for months and wanted compensation for the time their homes wasn't suitable to live in.

After low offers from their landlords they went to action a couple weeks ago to demand a meeting with executives. Two very successful negotiations later they agreed to £2.5k and £2.8k for the Leith and Fountainbridge cases respectively. This came on top of repairs to the property from DJ Alexander, such as new windows which improves the quality of our homes long term.

If you are having repair issues in your home with you letting agent, housing association or the council, come along to one of our meetings".

https://www.livingrent.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2hwthN46vpoQ-BHf_YvVRnz0rHxfz743-H-RRCSDbznfc98t3iT6OJGAQ_aem_AUau4G-1RsdAMjZndnlejwaZiT8QXPSXX20pGIPh1aaUt_uUXn400ri1l clC5DDvqkMY2mBiEGR828YiMrmQbo1S

[AgentDaleCooper]

As part of my awakening to the realisation that all mainstream political parties lack the will to make the changes our citizens need to access fair rental accommodation, I've been drawn towards community activist groups. Living Rent are doing fantastic work in our communities, across a whole range of issues. I really welcome the support they are providing to people in their struggles with exploitative landlords.

"Leith Members Stuart and Rory and Violette and Fatima from Fountainbridge, just won a total £5300 of rent rebates in negotiation with DJ Alexander!

Stuart and Rory had gone without heating for a year, and Violette, Fatima and their flatmates had broken drafty windows, mould and painted-over lights with no action for months and wanted compensation for the time their homes wasn't suitable to live in.

After low offers from their landlords they went to action a couple weeks ago to demand a meeting with executives. Two very successful negotiations later they agreed to £2.5k and £2.8k for the Leith and Fountainbridge cases respectively. This came on top of repairs to the property from DJ Alexander, such as new windows which improves the quality of our homes long term.

If you are having repair issues in your home with you letting agent, housing association or the council, come along to one of our meetings".

https://www.livingrent.org/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2hwthN46vpoQ-BHf_YvVRnz0rHxfz743-H-RRCSDbznfc98t3iT6OJGAQ_aem_AUau4G-1RsdAMjZndnlejwaZiT8QXPSXX20pGIPh1aaUt_uUXn400ri1l clC5DDvqkMY2mBiEGR828YiMrmQbo1S

really fantastic organisation IMO :aok:

have to say though, those landlords have gotten off lightly. is there something like a license that can be removed when stuff like this happens? if not, could it be workable?

[Just Alf]

really fantastic organisation IMO :aok:

have to say though, those landlords have gotten off lightly. is there something like a license that can be removed when stuff like this happens? if not, could it be workable?Yup, there is a Landlord license and an additional one for HMO (multiple occupancy) flats.

The landlord register is publicly accessible online although some landlords put their letting agency details in rather than their own.

[Ozyhibby]

Yup, there is a Landlord license and an additional one for HMO (multiple occupancy) flats.

The landlord register is publicly accessible online although some landlords put their letting agency details in rather than their own.

As far as I know, you are not allowed to put letting agent down on register?
Honestly, the worst landlords tend to be in the public/social housing sector. You do get some bad landlords in private sector but most are decent.
Usually the poorest in private sector are amateur landlords who don’t realise the level of maintenance required and how often it needs carried out. They don’t mean to be bad landlords but the result is the same.
Councils and housing association have no such excuse.


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[marinello59]

As far as I know, you are not allowed to put letting agent down on register?
Honestly, the worst landlords tend to be in the public/social housing sector. You do get some bad landlords in private sector but most are decent.
Usually the poorest in private sector are amateur landlords who don’t realise the level of maintenance required and how often it needs carried out. They don’t mean to be bad landlords but the result is the same.
Councils and housing association have no such excuse.


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Private landlords are mostly decent and the ones that aren’t don’t mean to be bad?. You make capitalism sound almost charitable. Are you a private landlord by any chance? :greengrin

Our councils provide housing at a much lower rent then the private sector. They do a pretty decent job considering the constraints they work under including the effects of the underfunded council tax freeze.

[Colr]

Private landlords are mostly decent and the ones that aren’t don’t mean to be bad?. You make capitalism sound almost charitable. Are you a private landlord by any chance? :greengrin

Our councils provide housing at a much lower rent then the private sector. They do a pretty decent job considering the constraints they work under including the effects of the underfunded council tax freeze.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct4m6s?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct4m6s?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Thanks for that, interesting stuff which shows how effective a properly funded public housing sector can be. Secure long term tenancies which can be inherited by family members with reasonable rents in high quality housing as good housing is seen as a right. The fact that 80% of city apartments are publicly owned and that 80% of the population qualifies for subsidised housing jumped out, that enables people to remain in those areas rather than being pushed out by those exploiting the system for private gain. If only one of the major parties was bold enough to take those ideas on.

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for that, interesting stuff which shows how effective a properly funded public housing sector can be. Secure long term tenancies which can be inherited by family members with reasonable rents in high quality housing as good housing is seen as a right. The fact that 80% of city apartments are publicly owned and that 80% of the population qualifies for subsidised housing jumped out, that enables people to remain in those areas rather than being pushed out by those exploiting the system for private gain. If only one of the major parties was bold enough to take those ideas on.

It’s possible if the subsidy comes from the rents generated. If you want it to come from general taxation then there is no chance. Although the housing benefit bill already subsidises a lot of housing.
Public housing needs to massively increased in this country, no doubt about it. The only way to do it will be by borrowing and that will only be achieved by leveraging the rents received.
The subsidy bit can come later, right now they just need to start building.


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[lapsedhibee]

As far as I know, you are not allowed to put letting agent down on register?
Honestly, the worst landlords tend to be in the public/social housing sector. You do get some bad landlords in private sector but most are decent.
Usually the poorest in private sector are amateur landlords who don’t realise the level of maintenance required and how often it needs carried out. They don’t mean to be bad landlords but the result is the same.
Councils and housing association have no such excuse.


You sound like Maureen Urquhart's brief, trying to keep her fine down! :wink:

[Colr]

Thanks for that, interesting stuff which shows how effective a properly funded public housing sector can be. Secure long term tenancies which can be inherited by family members with reasonable rents in high quality housing as good housing is seen as a right. The fact that 80% of city apartments are publicly owned and that 80% of the population qualifies for subsidised housing jumped out, that enables people to remain in those areas rather than being pushed out by those exploiting the system for private gain. If only one of the major parties was bold enough to take those ideas on.

Quite a bit of talk in Labour about intermediate rent as well as social rent to increase supply and pull the overall market back. Trouble is in London, the temporary accommodation budgets are massive so social needs to be prioritised. Could work, though, if they ramp up supply on public land. They’ll have to borrow and prsuade the Treasury its spend to save (which it is).

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgg2jyz4ywo?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_link_id=DBBBAC56-245F-11EF-94A2-F8FDEDB30CDF&at_medium=social&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_bbc_team=editorial

Another scheme that will push prices higher still. These people are mad.
How about building more homes?


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[Allant1981]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24363542.thousands-new-houses-near-stirling-coming-much-sooner/


Another Springfield village of 3000 homes near Stirling. IMHO Springfield are a good developer as they provide the infrastructure for shops, offices and small businesses within their departments.

We are actually on the mailing list for this site, their other developments look good

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgg2jyz4ywo?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_link_id=DBBBAC56-245F-11EF-94A2-F8FDEDB30CDF&at_medium=social&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_bbc_team=editorial

Another scheme that will push prices higher still. These people are mad.
How about building more homes?


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Saw this on x 😆
27972

[Ozyhibby]

Saw this on x [emoji38]
27972

[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

Rishi just said he’d bring back Help To Buy. [emoji35]


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[Moulin Yarns]

20 new affordable houses to be built on existing sites in the middle of pitlochry. Moving leisure and library facilities to an enlarged school campus. Passed at council today.

Small number in the large scheme of things but a large number for a town the size of pitlochry.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/timesradio/status/1803757136188498012?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good interview about housing and planning in the UK.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/judy-murray-20m-tennis-centre-project-abandoned-after-planning-battle

Planning stopping more housing.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/judy-murray-20m-tennis-centre-project-abandoned-after-planning-battle

Planning stopping more housing.


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11 year planning battle 😆. This country is tremendous, Andy and Judy should take it to another European country, all of them would take it and their planning isn't decided by wee old local council groups

[Ozyhibby]

11 year planning battle [emoji38]. This country is tremendous, Andy and Judy should take it to another European country, all of them would take it and their planning isn't decided by wee old local council groups

It’s almost like we enjoy being poor.


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[Moulin Yarns]

11 year planning battle 😆. This country is tremendous, Andy and Judy should take it to another European country, all of them would take it and their planning isn't decided by wee old local council groups

Always going to lose when it's on prime agricultural land in the greenbelt. They should have built it in the garden of Cromlix House.

[superfurryhibby]

Always going to lose when it's on prime agricultural land in the greenbelt. They should have built it in the garden of Cromlix House.

This is lost on the proponents of right wing influenced babble on planning and consent.

Of course, it wasn't just a proposal to build some tennis courts;

"A four-star hotel, multi-user sports pitch, museum, visitor centre and 19 houses were also planned.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is lost on the proponents of right wing influenced babble on planning and consent.

Of course, it wasn't just a proposal to build some tennis courts;

"A four-star hotel, multi-user sports pitch, museum, visitor centre and 19 houses were also planned.

On prime agricultural land in the greenbelt. That's why it failed to get approval.

[superfurryhibby]

On prime agricultural land in the greenbelt. That's why it failed to get approval.

On closer inspection, it did get approval.

"However, Scottish ministers overruled the decision, external, saying the benefits of the £37.5m plan would "outweigh" the loss of greenbelt land.

Approval is subject to 22 conditions set out by the government.

The development, which is backed by Judy Murray, includes luxury housing, 12 tennis courts, a golf academy, hotel and visitor centre.

Ministers approved the plan despite a Scottish government-appointed reporter recommending that the appeal be refused., external

However, they rejected the developer's claim for an award of expenses against Stirling Council, saying they agreed with the reporter's finding that the authority had not acted in an "unreasonable manner".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-59742106

"
The development was also dependent on the building of luxury housing on the Park of Keir site, which was particularly unpopular with campaigners. Ultimately, a lack of investment in the project led to Judy Murray and her Murray Play Foundation deciding that it could not go ahead without public funding to cover the increased construction costs of the £20m facility.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/plans-for-murray-legacy-tennis-centre-near-dunblane-scrapped-after-decade-long-dispute/ar-AA1ptKdp?ocid=BingNewsSerp

[Ozyhibby]

We’re world class at finding reasons not to build. There is barely a single crane in Edinburgh’s skyline just now. [emoji2369]


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[Stairway 2 7]

This is lost on the proponents of right wing influenced babble on planning and consent.

Of course, it wasn't just a proposal to build some tennis courts;

"A four-star hotel, multi-user sports pitch, museum, visitor centre and 19 houses were also planned.

It's the right wing the tories and older people that are generally more swayed to Nimbyism. The younger sections of the greens and labour want houses. Old people who have nice big houses saying we shouldn't build houses to the youth who have no homes is as abhorrent as you can get. 42% of under 35s now live with their parents. Anyone happy in their own home telling those living with parents that we don't need more homes built have a brass neck

When Germany said it wanted to stop the tax breaks on farming and cut nitrogen use, as farms are such big polluters, it was the far right that protested. The oxygen conservation estimates we need to convert 22% of our current farmland to nature if we want net zero.
https://www.oxygenconservation.com/news-events/the-unsettling-truth-about-uk-land-use/#:~:text=Creating%20Space%20for%20Conservation,woo dland%20creation%20and%20peatland%20restoration.

[superfurryhibby]

It's the right wing the tories and older people that are generally more swayed to Nimbyism. The younger sections of the greens and labour want houses. Old people who have nice big houses saying we shouldn't build houses to the youth who have no homes is as abhorrent as you can get. 42% of under 35s now live with their parents. Anyone happy in their own home telling those living with parents that we don't need more homes built have a brass neck

When Germany said it wanted to stop the tax breaks on farming and cut nitrogen use, as farms are such big polluters, it was the far right that protested. The oxygen conservation estimates we need to convert 22% of our current farmland to nature if we want net zero.
https://www.oxygenconservation.com/news-events/the-unsettling-truth-about-uk-land-use/#:~:text=Creating%20Space%20for%20Conservation,woo dland%20creation%20and%20peatland%20restoration.

House prices are way disproportionate to wages. There are plenty houses, it's just that young people can't afford them.

Anyway, back to the Murray story. Permission was actually granted for the development, they wanted the public purse to part fund their hotel, luxury housing , tennis and golf development and pulled out due to rising costs etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's the right wing the tories and older people that are generally more swayed to Nimbyism. The younger sections of the greens and labour want houses. Old people who have nice big houses saying we shouldn't build houses to the youth who have no homes is as abhorrent as you can get. 42% of under 35s now live with their parents. Anyone happy in their own home telling those living with parents that we don't need more homes built have a brass neck

When Germany said it wanted to stop the tax breaks on farming and cut nitrogen use, as farms are such big polluters, it was the far right that protested. The oxygen conservation estimates we need to convert 22% of our current farmland to nature if we want net zero.
https://www.oxygenconservation.com/news-events/the-unsettling-truth-about-uk-land-use/#:~:text=Creating%20Space%20for%20Conservation,woo dland%20creation%20and%20peatland%20restoration.

Do you think that the luxury homes at the Murray tennis club would be affordable to young people??

[Stairway 2 7]

House prices are way disproportionate to wages. There are plenty houses, it's just that young people can't afford them.

Anyway, back to the Murray story. Permission was actually granted for the development, they wanted the public purse to part fund their hotel, luxury housing , tennis and golf development and pulled out due to rising costs etc.
We have the the lowest vacanct houses of every oecd nation 2% free. Germany and France have 8% vacant.
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/HM1-1-Housing-stock-and-construction.pdf

We would need to build 3 million homes just to have the same % of spare homes as Germany. Some cities like London 0.7% and Manchester 0.5% are worse. Paris is having a building push as the number of spare homes has dropped to 6% and they want it back up to 8% to lower prices

We do not have enough homes, that could not be more wrong

[Stairway 2 7]

Do you think that the luxury homes at the Murray tennis club would be affordable to young people??

No it's only 16 homes. The hotel would bring jobs to a rural area and the tennis centre would help the community and the youth of Scotland. Andy had to move to Spain as we had no facilities.

[superfurryhibby]

No it's only 16 homes. The hotel would bring jobs to a rural area and the tennis centre would help the community and the youth of Scotland. Andy had to move to Spain as we had no facilities.

I think you should read more about the development and why there was opposition to it.

I'll leave one that with you, keep in mind that permission was actually granted, though with proviso's.

[Ozyhibby]

House prices are way disproportionate to wages. There are plenty houses, it's just that young people can't afford them.

Anyway, back to the Murray story. Permission was actually granted for the development, they wanted the public purse to part fund their hotel, luxury housing , tennis and golf development and pulled out due to rising costs etc.

We have plenty houses? [emoji102]
If we have plenty houses then why are they so expensive?


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[superfurryhibby]

We have plenty houses? [emoji102]
If we have plenty houses then why are they so expensive?


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Greed. We could spend all day debating why that is so. and why the private sector are not going to solve the housing crisis, no matter how many houses they build. I

However, you claimed that planning stopped housing development.

Clearly that was nonsense, given that in the situation you were posting about permission was actually granted? The developers themselves cited rising costs and a number of other factors as to why they pulled out of their hotel, luxury housing, tennis and golf academy plans.

"significant increases in construction, material, energy and labour costs, a lengthy and uncertain planning process, and protracted discussions with governing bodies” were among the factors behind the decision.

[Ozyhibby]

Greed. We could spend all day debating why that is so. and why the private sector are not going to solve the housing crisis, no matter how many houses they build. I

However, you claimed that planning stopped housing development.

Clearly that was nonsense, given that in the situation you were posting about permission was actually granted? The developers themselves cited rising costs and a number of other factors as to why they pulled out of their hotel, luxury housing, tennis and golf academy plans.

"significant increases in construction, material, energy and labour costs, a lengthy and uncertain planning process, and protracted discussions with governing bodies” were among the factors behind the decision.

So if I wanted to be greedy I could just set the price of my house at £1m and I would get it?
Planning very much stops houses getting built. The process of lodging a planning application is no longer viable on small developments. That’s why you never see small builders building one or two houses a year anymore. The planning system is only for the big volume builders who want green field sites. If I found a small patch of brownfield land in Edinburgh the planning process would prevent a single dwelling being built. The only way it’s worthwhile is if I’m building a multi unit development.

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[Moulin Yarns]

So if I wanted to be greedy I could just set the price of my house at £1m and I would get it?
Planning very much stops houses getting built. The process of lodging a planning application is no longer viable on small developments. That’s why you never see small builders building one or two houses a year anymore. The planning system is only for the big volume builders who want green field sites. If I found a small patch of brownfield land in Edinburgh the planning process would prevent a single dwelling being built. The only way it’s worthwhile is if I’m building a multi unit development.

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That is so wrong. The planning system allows for single properties in the right places. I should know, I'm surrounded by them!!

[Ozyhibby]

That is so wrong. The planning system allows for single properties in the right places. I should know, I'm surrounded by them!!

And yet we are still not building them. What do you think is the reason we are not building enough houses?


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[superfurryhibby]

So if I wanted to be greedy I could just set the price of my house at £1m and I would get it?
Planning very much stops houses getting built. The process of lodging a planning application is no longer viable on small developments. That’s why you never see small builders building one or two houses a year anymore. The planning system is only for the big volume builders who want green field sites. If I found a small patch of brownfield land in Edinburgh the planning process would prevent a single dwelling being built. The only way it’s worthwhile is if I’m building a multi unit development.

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Shifting the goalposts a bit now.

Can your admit your post on the Murray development was inaccurate?

[Ozyhibby]

Shifting the goalposts a bit now.

Can your admit your post on the Murray development was inaccurate?

It took 11 years to get conditional approval and you’re saying it’s a planning success? The conditions made it unviable and now it’s not happening. Another result for the nimbys.


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[Moulin Yarns]

And yet we are still not building them. What do you think is the reason we are not building enough houses?


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Depends who's not building. You've complained in the past about the numbers of new student flats, so they are getting built.

In the 1970s and 80s student flats were private landlords, now those flats are likely to be Airbnb.

Volume builders used to build speculatively nowadays they sell off plan, so they have a buyer before building.

Where I live the farmer sold individual plots at £100 -£150k in the 1990s, 15 individual houses built by different architects and builders.

[superfurryhibby]

It took 11 years to get conditional approval and you’re saying it’s a planning success? The conditions made it unviable and now it’s not happening. Another result for the nimbys.


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Judy Murray won an eight-year planning battle to build the complex south of Dunblane at the end of 2021.

But the scheme continued to face opposition from local campaigners due to the site being located on green-belt land.

At the heart of this project was an exclusive luxury housing development that would have been damaging to the local landscape and would have eroded ancient woodlands and crucial greenbelt land.

"A statement from the charity said “significant increases in construction, material, energy and labour costs, a lengthy and uncertain planning process, and protracted discussions with governing bodies” were among the factors behind the decision.

Scottish Green MSP Mark Ruskell

“We all want to see a fitting tennis legacy for Andy Murray across Scotland, but building an inaccessible private sports centre, reliant on public funding, in a location that has very little local support was never going to end well.

[Ozyhibby]

Depends who's not building. You've complained in the past about the numbers of new student flats, so they are getting built.

In the 1970s and 80s student flats were private landlords, now those flats are likely to be Airbnb.

Volume builders used to build speculatively nowadays they sell off plan, so they have a buyer before building.

Where I live the farmer sold individual plots at £100 -£150k in the 1990s, 15 individual houses built by different architects and builders.

I’ve not complained about student flats? I’m in favour of them.[emoji2369]


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[Kato]

It’s almost like we enjoy being poor.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCrabs in a bucket mentality.

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[hibee]

I live in a relatively new build home built on part of the local farmers land that he sold. Any time there’s a new planning application the people who live around here complain about the loss of green space.

These people never seem to acknowledge that their house is also sitting on what was another one of the same farmers fields not that long ago.

They always say things like we won’t have any green space left when in reality I walk 2 minutes from my house and can only see green space for as far as my eyes can see!

[superfurryhibby]

I live in a relatively new build home built on part of the local farmers land that he sold. Any time there’s a new planning application the people who live around here complain about the loss of green space.

These people never seem to acknowledge that their house is also sitting on what was another one of the same farmers fields not that long ago.

They always say things like we won’t have any green space left when in reality I walk 2 minutes from my house and can only see green space for as far as my eyes can see!

Give it another twenty years, I'm sure that can be remedied for you.

[RyeSloan]

It took 11 years to get conditional approval and you’re saying it’s a planning success? The conditions made it unviable and now it’s not happening. Another result for the nimbys.


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It appears the story actually goes all the way back to 1988!

Oddly planning permission was actually granted at one point for an earlier version of the scheme:

https://www.urbanrealm.com/features/599/Park_of_Keir%3A_Back_and_Forth.html

[hibee]

Give it another twenty years, I'm sure that can be remedied for you.

If I’m still fit enough to go for walks in 20 years I’ll be delighted regardless of the view [emoji3]

[Bristolhibby]

I live in a relatively new build home built on part of the local farmers land that he sold. Any time there’s a new planning application the people who live around here complain about the loss of green space.

These people never seem to acknowledge that their house is also sitting on what was another one of the same farmers fields not that long ago.

They always say things like we won’t have any green space left when in reality I walk 2 minutes from my house and can only see green space for as far as my eyes can see!

True, my estate (40 houses and flats) was built on a village on farmers fields back in 2008. I have the village life in a modern (insulated) house.

More houses were built over the A4 in the other village.

No issues with facilities. The village has a good primary, shop, pub, Indian / another pub and a massive country house / hotel / golf course.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Give it another twenty years, I'm sure that can be remedied for you.

Yip. If they apply for planning now that will just about do it.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Might not be in the central belt, but plenty of development elsewhere.

https://www.perthwest.com/

https://www.thespringfieldgroup.co.uk/about/our-villages/278-bertha-park-perth

That's 4000 new homes with all the associated infrastructure, schools, shops, surgery etc within an hour of Edinburgh.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’ve not complained about student flats? I’m in favour of them.[emoji2369]


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Apologies, someone else did. Anyways, the rest of my post stands.

[Stairway 2 7]

Might not be in the central belt, but plenty of development elsewhere.

https://www.perthwest.com/

https://www.thespringfieldgroup.co.uk/about/our-villages/278-bertha-park-perth

That's 4000 new homes with all the associated infrastructure, schools, shops, surgery etc within an hour of Edinburgh.

We can all put up single examples or say plenty getting built near me but it's better to go with actual nationwide figures. Housebuilding is well behind target. We've even lower spare homes than England and a quarter of the free homes that every western European nation has. Scotland has now got massive net immigration 48,800 people last year. They all need homes also. I'd say it's by far the biggest crisis hitting people my age and younger.


https://news.stv.tv/politics/housebuilding-in-scotland-plummets-official-figures-reveal

Statistics released by the Scottish Government show that overall there were 20,992 new homes built across all sectors in 2023, a fall of 11% since the year before.

There was an even bigger fall for the number of newly built homes being started last year.

Some 16,017 houses started construction, a decrease of 24% and 5,009 fewer than 2022

Statistics show 2,073 housing association new build starts in 2023, the lowest level since 1988.

“Local authority starts (1,192 homes) in 2023 were at the lowest number since 2013”.

[Moulin Yarns]

We can all put up single examples or say plenty getting built near me but it's better to go with actual nationwide figures. Housebuilding is well behind target. We've even lower spare homes than England and a quarter of the free homes that every western European nation has. Scotland has now got massive net immigration 48,800 people last year. They all need homes also. I'd say it's by far the biggest crisis hitting people my age and younger.


https://news.stv.tv/politics/housebuilding-in-scotland-plummets-official-figures-reveal

Statistics released by the Scottish Government show that overall there were 20,992 new homes built across all sectors in 2023, a fall of 11% since the year before.

There was an even bigger fall for the number of newly built homes being started last year.

Some 16,017 houses started construction, a decrease of 24% and 5,009 fewer than 2022

Statistics show 2,073 housing association new build starts in 2023, the lowest level since 1988.

“Local authority starts (1,192 homes) in 2023 were at the lowest number since 2013”.

As I said earlier Airbnb has a lot to answer for when it comes to small affordable flats in the cities. The kind that used to be the first step on the ladder.

My first flat, 1 bedroom in grangemouth in 1979 £4k now, £53k

[Ozyhibby]

As I said earlier Airbnb has a lot to answer for when it comes to small affordable flats in the cities. The kind that used to be the first step on the ladder.

My first flat, 1 bedroom in grangemouth in 1979 £4k now, £53k

Not just Airbnb. The government encourage it with favourable tax rules compared to a standard let house. It can save you thousands a year in tax by doing a holiday let rather than rent to a resident.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Not just Airbnb. The government encourage it with favourable tax rules compared to a standard let house. It can save you thousands a year in tax by doing a holiday let rather than rent to a resident.


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That's stopping in April.

[Andy Bee]

I've asked this before in here but just to clarify. When you own an AirBNB do you pay council tax and if so do you pay double after a year like a normal property?

[Stairway 2 7]

As I said earlier Airbnb has a lot to answer for when it comes to small affordable flats in the cities. The kind that used to be the first step on the ladder.

My first flat, 1 bedroom in grangemouth in 1979 £4k now, £53k

To have the same the same amount of spare homes as Germany France Holland ect we'd need about 250,000 extra homes in Scotland. There are 30k rooms on Airbnb they could all become houses and it still wouldn't help as net immigration it 50k people.

I just don't understand how people can see the fact and not scream for mass house building. I'm so fortunate I've got a home but too many just don't. There are around 10k homeless children in Scotland and 45 net get added to that number each day. It's a disgrace and a large number of people in their nice homes just don't care

[CropleyWasGod]

I've asked this before in here but just to clarify. When you own an AirBNB do you pay council tax and if so do you pay double after a year like a normal property?

No, but you do pay business rates.

[Ozyhibby]

That's stopping in April.

I know but it’s been a long time and it was a big driver of investors moving to serviced accommodation. Especially for higher rate tax payers.


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[overdrive]

I know but it’s been a long time and it was a big driver of investors moving to serviced accommodation. Especially for higher rate tax payers.


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I think we'll start to see a move in the other direction. My mate runs a letting agency. It was purely short-term serviced apartments until recently. They are now moving towards a mix of short-term serviced apartments, medium-term serviced apartments (e.g. letting to businesses, film crews, etc.) and residential. He says the regulatory framework now means that purely short-term holiday lets isn't sustainable as a business. He points out that short-term and medium-term lets can be something that's actually required beyond tourism. They take a lot of insurance lets, i.e. folk that need short-term re-housing where their home has been damaged due to fire, flood, etc.

Its a dangerous business - he went to speak to a tenant last week after receiving complaints from neighbours and the guy hadn't responded to his emails. Guy pulled a knife out on him. Despite that, he can't easily get rid of the guy.

[Ozyhibby]

Its a dangerous business - he went to speak to a tenant last week after receiving complaints from neighbours and the guy hadn't responded to his emails. Guy pulled a knife out on him. Despite that, he can't easily get rid of the guy.

Not at all, it’s practically free money, landlords are raking it in for absolutely no work. [emoji6][emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/06/09/stamp_duty_terrible_how_to_abolish/
Some good ideas here.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Mortgage holders and renters hit hardest by inflation last year, people with bought homes the least. Hopefully rates come down this year

https://www.ft.com/content/5c383479-7c83-4db7-b75d-4f14c7f1c6a0

ONS data underscores uneven social impact of surge in living costs

Household costs for those with mortgages rose at annual rate of 3.7 per cent in the 12 months to June

The figure was down from 4.1 per cent in May but still the highest of any UK socio-economic group. It was also well above the 2.5 per cent rate across the general population

Households in private rental accommodation saw costs increase at an annual rate of 3.2 per cent in the same period, according to the ONS. By contrast, costs for people who owned their property outright rose 1.3 per cent, the lowest of any group calculated by the statistics agency

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/edinburgh_cc/status/1830928734158717366?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This looks great but I dread to think how long planning will take.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/edinburgh_cc/status/1830928734158717366?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This looks great but I dread to think how long planning will take.


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Looks great would hugely improve Edinburgh so I'd say 5 years of planning, discussions, companies already there not moving and we'll be no further forward by 2030. Cute though

[Mon Dieu4]

https://x.com/edinburgh_cc/status/1830928734158717366?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This looks great but I dread to think how long planning will take.


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Does it mention what would happen to the cat and dog home or does that stay as is? Always wondered that when I saw this was going to happen

[hibee]

Does it mention what would happen to the cat and dog home or does that stay as is? Always wondered that when I saw this was going to happen

It will probably stay then the people who buy flats next to it will complain about the barking all night!

[Andy Bee]

https://x.com/edinburgh_cc/status/1830928734158717366?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This looks great but I dread to think how long planning will take.


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Even if it does manage to get pushed through I'd imagine those properties to command some really serious prices. A small detail but if it's being billed as "environmentally friendly" then why are all the roofs facing East West?

[Colr]

Even if it does manage to get pushed through I'd imagine those properties to command some really serious prices. A small detail but if it's being billed as "environmentally friendly" then why are all the roofs facing East West?

Eh?

[Eaststand]

Eh?

I'm assuming Andy is referring to solar panels fitted onto the new houses roofs, as a south facing roof would reap greater benefits from solar panels than east / west facing roofs.

GGTTH

[Ozyhibby]

Even if it does manage to get pushed through I'd imagine those properties to command some really serious prices. A small detail but if it's being billed as "environmentally friendly" then why are all the roofs facing East West?

Expensive houses still increase supply which helps bring down prices overall. Or at least stops them rising so fast.
The cost of the planning system makes it difficult to build cheaper housing.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Argentina has ended rent controls and availability of houses has risen and prices have fallen. Mexico has just started rent controls so it'll be interesting to see what happens there. I've not seen anywhere they have worked but plenty that have caused prices to rise

https://www.newsweek.com/javier-milei-rent-control-argentina-us-election-kamala-harris-housing-affordability-1938127

Javier Milei Got Rid of Rent Control in Argentina. Housing Supply Skyrocketed

Argentina's recent repeal of rent control by libertarian President Javier Milei has led to a surge in housing supply, with the freedom to negotiate contracts, previously restricted, directly causing a drop in rental prices

[superfurryhibby]

Expensive houses still increase supply which helps bring down prices overall. Or at least stops them rising so fast.
The cost of the planning system makes it difficult to build cheaper housing.


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That's a new one on me, got to laugh at that.

Are planning costs that different in Edinburgh when compared say to the Scottish Borders. The same house, built by the same company costs a lot more.

[RyeSloan]

I'm assuming Andy is referring to solar panels fitted onto the new houses roofs, as a south facing roof would reap greater benefits from solar panels than east / west facing roofs.

GGTTH

It’s probably a moot point as it’s an artists impression after all but a quick look at a map suggests Seafield doesn’t run east / west at all and is much more NW / SE than you would imagine…so maybe these imaginary roofs are at the right orientation after all [emoji2957]

[Ozyhibby]

That's a new one on me, got to laugh at that.

Are planning costs that different in Edinburgh when compared say to the Scottish Borders. The same house, built by the same company costs a lot more.

It’s not the only factor. My point was build more houses if we want to keep prices down. Edinburgh has a massive shortage of houses. We can either build them or try make people leave the city.
Planning adds about £100k to the value of a house before a brick is laid.


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[Andy Bee]

Expensive houses still increase supply which helps bring down prices overall. Or at least stops them rising so fast.
The cost of the planning system makes it difficult to build cheaper housing.



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Building social housing would bring prices down a lot quicker. Assuming that build goes ahead and is built as the impression suggests you'd be lucky to get one under £500k so what would that cure? You'd get a load of well off people selling their big overpriced homes and moving to the seaside. A load would be bought for the AirBnB crew and a few would be private rental at god only knows what price per month. Given its proximity to Ocean Terminal and the load of overpriced shoe boxes around there this development only adds further to the gentrification of Edinburgh. If a decent sized site has been identified then just build good quality social housing and more so if it's inner city like this.



It’s probably a moot point as it’s an artists impression after all but a quick look at a map suggests Seafield doesn’t run east / west at all and is much more NW / SE than you would imagine…so maybe these imaginary roofs are at the right orientation after all [emoji2957]

Typical Unionist, black is white, East is West and on and on it goes. I'll give you 110 degrees to 290 at best. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

It’s not the only factor. My point was build more houses if we want to keep prices down. Edinburgh has a massive shortage of houses. We can either build them or try make people leave the city.
Planning adds about £100k to the value of a house before a brick is laid.


Do you mean that land with planning permission is £100k more expensive than land without planning permission, or do you mean something else?

[Ozyhibby]

Do you mean that land with planning permission is £100k more expensive than land without planning permission, or do you mean something else?

Yes.


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[RyeSloan]

Typical Unionist, black is white, East is West and on and on it goes. I'll give you 110 degrees to 290 at best. :greengrin

Wait? What? You want a compromise and a meeting of minds in the middle?

Those days are gone my friend [emoji1787]

[Just Alf]

Yes.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI know a "pal of a pal" that used to buy land then do plans/planning etc before reselling at a very decent price, never realised it was that lucrative tho! :-/

[lapsedhibee]

I know a "pal of a pal" that used to buy land then do plans/planning etc before reselling at a very decent price, never realised it was that lucrative tho! :-/

Think the price difference of £100k quoted is between land which can't get planning permission and land which can. Don't think it's the price difference between land which can get planning permission and the same land having got planning permission.

[Just Alf]

Think the price difference of £100k quoted is between land which can't get planning permission and land which can. Don't think it's the price difference between land which can get planning permission and the same land having got planning permission.Ah... gotcha ... :agree:

[hibee]

Once you get allocated a council house is that you free to stay in one forever no matter how rich you become?

I’m not suggesting the council throw people out for doing well in life, just interested in the answer if they’re not building more houses than the number of people on their waiting lists.

[Andy Bee]

Once you get allocated a council house is that you free to stay in one forever no matter how rich you become?

I’m not suggesting the council throw people out for doing well in life, just interested in the answer if they’re not building more houses than the number of people on their waiting lists.

You can get allocated a council house when you're well off. Not long ago Eddie Dempsey the deputy leader of the RMT Union was ridiculed wrongly IMO for accepting a council house whilst earning £100k a year.

[hibee]

You can get allocated a council house when you're well off. Not long ago Eddie Dempsey the deputy leader of the RMT Union was ridiculed wrongly IMO for accepting a council house whilst earning £100k a year.

I thought there was some kind of points system so you had no chance if you were wealthy but that will explain why in the new estate I walk through every day there’s some really expensive cars on the drives, even a £100k Audi!

[marinello59]

I thought there was some kind of points system so you had no chance if you were wealthy but that will explain why in the new estate I walk through every day there’s some really expensive cars on the drives, even a £100k Audi!

Access to decent housing provided by the state at a fair rent that isn’t driven by profit really shouldn’t be seen as a benefit but as a right available to all. I can dream. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Access to decent housing provided by the state at a fair rent that isn’t driven by profit really shouldn’t be seen as a benefit but as a right available to all. I can dream. :greengrin

We never vote for that though.


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[superfurryhibby]

Think the price difference of £100k quoted is between land which can't get planning permission and land which can. Don't think it's the price difference between land which can get planning permission and the same land having got planning permission.

It's a made up stat to suit an agenda.

[Andy Bee]

It's a made up stat to suit an agenda.


I'm not sure if you're questioning the £100k claim or not but if you are then here's an example. Decent quality farming land around my area is approx £8k an acre, if you can get outlining planning then here's what happens. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/68171526/?search_identifier=41527971de5df1d595f3c023d063083 9d855a34dd269906fa7b5afabb9f2da69

[superfurryhibby]

I'm not sure if you're questioning the £100k claim or not but if you are then here's an example. Decent quality farming land around my area is approx £8k an acre, if you can get outlining planning then here's what happens. https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/68171526/?search_identifier=41527971de5df1d595f3c023d063083 9d855a34dd269906fa7b5afabb9f2da69

I think that price has more to do with profiteering than planning.

[lapsedhibee]

I think that price has more to do with profiteering than planning.

Presumably the farmer didn't sell his half-acre to someone for £4k and the buyer then made a profit of £220k for doing some paper/leg work, so are you really objecting to the farmer, in a position of finding himself with developable land, selling it for the going rate?

[Moulin Yarns]

I think that price has more to do with profiteering than planning.

I previously posted about the area I live in. The local farmer got outline planning permission and sold 6 individual plots for around £100k each, in the early 1990s.

[superfurryhibby]

Presumably the farmer didn't sell his half-acre to someone for £4k and the buyer then made a profit of £220k for doing some paper/leg work, so are you really objecting to the farmer, in a position of finding himself with developable land, selling it for the going rate?

No, I'm questioning the spurious claim made that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of new house. However, if every Farmer sold developable land we would damage the environment and reduce our food growing capacity and that would be long term stupidity in a world where pressure on water resource will demand that there should less reliance on imported food.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that price has more to do with profiteering than planning.

? [emoji2369]


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[RyeSloan]

No, I'm questioning the spurious claim made that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of new house. However, if every Farmer sold developable land we would damage the environment and reduce our food growing capacity and that would be long term stupidity in a world where pressure on water resource will demand that there should less reliance on imported food.

If you think it’s spurious how much do you think it’s adds to the cost of a house then?

Prices vary massively across the country and location but a figure of £15k per acre for arable land looks a half decent average.

An acre of land with planning permission for housing goes for many multiples of that. Again varies by location but a multiple of 8x to 10x s not out of the question.

So the estimate of £100k per house looks pretty sensible. Some figures I’ve seen suggest all the way up to about 65% of the cost is the land.

But again if you think this is all made up to meet certain ’agendas’ you could always come back with some evidence to show that land prices don’t actually increase massively (and thus push the cost of the resultant houses up substantially) after getting planning to build on them and add some facts n figures to your claim.

[lapsedhibee]

long term stupidity in a world where pressure on water resource will demand that there should less reliance on imported food.

With you on that. To reduce the demand for housebuilding land, perhaps build more skyscrapers, or prevent people with surname Johnson or Ress-Mogg from breeding so rabidly, or declare Britain full. I'll go for the second of those options first.

[Stairway 2 7]

No, I'm questioning the spurious claim made that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of new house. However, if every Farmer sold developable land we would damage the environment and reduce our food growing capacity and that would be long term stupidity in a world where pressure on water resource will demand that there should less reliance on imported food.

People think of farms as green and pleasant land but the are generally giant polluters, 12% of our co2 comes from farms. Climate action estimates we need to reduce farmed land by 30% to get net zero by 2050. We have a climate and housing emergency not a food emergency. 9% of our manufactured food is wasted and 67% of Scots are overweight or obese, we'll be fine with a reduction and the planet would be happy too

Your constantly against house building. Do you have a permanent address because if you do how can you say to the 175,000 children that are homeless in the uk tough I'm alright Jack. Almost 400,000 people homeless and the smallest amount of spare homes in the oecd.

I'm fortunate I've got a house so no skin in the game but it makes me furious that kids all over Edinburgh will be sleeping in temporary houses and whole families in b and b rooms, whilst people rattle out excuses not to massively build housing

[superfurryhibby]

If you think it’s spurious how much do you think it’s adds to the cost of a house then?

Prices vary massively across the country and location but a figure of £15k per acre for arable land looks a half decent average.

An acre of land with planning permission for housing goes for many multiples of that. Again varies by location but a multiple of 8x to 10x s not out of the question.

So the estimate of £100k per house looks pretty sensible. Some figures I’ve seen suggest all the way up to about 65% of the cost is the land.

But again if you think this is all made up to meet certain ’agendas’ you could always come back with some evidence to show that land prices don’t actually increase massively (and thus push the cost of the resultant houses up substantially) after getting planning to build on them and add some facts n figures to your claim.

One persons guess is as good as another, why don't you request the person who stated that figure to back it up instead of me?

There is land for sale in West Linton, £85,000, without any permissions. You're not seriously trying to tell me that it would be worth 8-10 x that if it had the necessary consent?

The plot is 7.5 acres.

https://www.cullenkilshaw.com/residential-property/properties-for-sale/property-details/?prop=239149

Why don't you go onto a planning portal and scope it out for us and settle the debate?

[Moulin Yarns]

People think of farms as green and pleasant land but the are generally giant polluters, 12% of our co2 comes from farms. Climate action estimates we need to reduce farmed land by 30% to get net zero by 2050. We have a climate and housing emergency not a food emergency. 9% of our manufactured food is wasted and 67% of Scots are overweight or obese, we'll be fine with a reduction and the planet would be happy too

Your constantly against house building. Do you have a permanent address because if you do how can you say to the 175,000 children that are homeless in the uk tough I'm alright Jack. Almost 400,000 people homeless and the smallest amount of spare homes in the oecd.

I'm fortunate I've got a house so no skin in the game but it makes me furious that kids all over Edinburgh will be sleeping in temporary houses and whole families in b and b rooms, whilst people rattle out excuses not to massively build housing

You over simplified it. Livestock and arable farming are different.

[Stairway 2 7]

You over simplified it. Livestock and arable farming are different.

The figures for farming in general although both livestock non livestock are massive co2 and nitrogen producers. SNP wanted a 32% reduction in co2 from farms from 2018 to 2030 but we won't get close. Regardless with an obesity crisis and a housing crisis there is a simple shift

[RyeSloan]

One persons guess is as good as another, why don't you request the person who stated that figure to back it up instead of me?

There is land for sale in West Linton, £85,000, without any permissions. You're not seriously trying to tell me that it would be worth 8-10 x that if it had the necessary consent?

The plot is 7.5 acres.

https://www.cullenkilshaw.com/residential-property/properties-for-sale/property-details/?prop=239149

Why don't you go onto a planning portal and scope it out for us and settle the debate?

Ahh right so you claim they are spurious figures , made up to meet an agenda yet immediately pass it back to me to unprove your unproven comments? I see what you did there.

But hey ho I gave it a two second google and immediately found a 0.2 acre plot in West Linton with planning for a 4 or 5 bed house for sale at £195k.

Handily listed right above those 7.5acres in the same West Linton for £85k on right move.

So land that’s just urmm land £11k per acre. Land that has planning going for £1m an acre.

Makes that 10x look rather conservative don’t ya say?

[lapsedhibee]

There is land for sale in West Linton, £85,000, without any permissions. You're not seriously trying to tell me that it would be worth 8-10 x that if it had the necessary consent?

The plot is 7.5 acres.

Value of that would be huge. Bigly huge.

[superfurryhibby]

Ahh right so you claim they are spurious figures , made up to meet an agenda yet immediately pass it back to me to unprove your unproven comments? I see what you did there.

But hey ho I gave it a two second google and immediately found a 0.2 acre plot in West Linton with planning for a 4 or 5 bed house for sale at £195k.

Handily listed right above those 7.5acres in the same West Linton for £85k on right move.

So land that’s just urmm land £11k per acre. Land that has planning going for £1m an acre.

Makes that 10x look rather conservative don’t ya say?

You don't seem to be grasping that two spurious claims don't make for factual accuracy. Funnily enough, just to assist your grasp of this, I posted a link from Cullen Kilshaw, not Right Move.

So is the cost due to planning or profit? Of course land with planning is more valuable, but who determines the price? Developers aren't going to go through the process for the heck of it, clearly it adds value. So what percentage of the price is profit and what is costs?

[Moulin Yarns]

You don't seem to be grasping that two spurious claims don't make for factual accuracy. Funnily enough, just to assist your grasp of this, I posted a link from Cullen Kilshaw, not Right Move.

So is the cost due to planning or profit? Of course land with planning is more valuable, but who determines the price? Developers aren't going to go through the process for the heck of it, clearly it adds value. So what percentage of the price is profit and what is costs?

Again, my farming neighbour had land with little value, coo sheds, field margins etc. He obtained outline planning permission to build 6 houses. He's then sold each plot in the early 1990s for at least £100k. So £600k in the pocket for around £6k outlay to an architect. Damn good if you get it. Land value increase from 0 to £600k.

[RyeSloan]

You don't seem to be grasping that two spurious claims don't make for factual accuracy. Funnily enough, just to assist your grasp of this, I posted a link from Cullen Kilshaw, not Right Move.

So is the cost due to planning or profit? Of course land with planning is more valuable, but who determines the price? Developers aren't going to go through the process for the heck of it, clearly it adds value. So what percentage of the price is profit and what is costs?

Cullen Kilshaw..who cares? The listing for the £85k piece of land is exactly the same.

And the cost of a house is the cost for the buyer of the house perspective.

The uplift in value of land can be associated to many reasons, not just the actual cost of putting in a planning request (substantial though that may be in some cases). Quite clearly one of the main drivers is the limited amount of land where such requests will succeed.

But back to your original assertions:

The £100k additional cost to the buyer of a house for the land element was a spurious figure.

Then you stated the stat was made up to suit an [undefined] agenda.

Yet here we have a real live example of one acre of land costing £11k the other close to £1m. The main difference is one has planning permission for a house the other not.

That’s not “made up” nor ‘spurious’ it’s right there in front of you. With the added bonus of being agenda free.

Quite simply the cost of the land that you are allowed to build a house on is a substantial cost of the end product.

Whether anyone thinks that’s fair or right and / or absolutely every one is ‘profiteering’ along the way is open to question for sure but surely there is no denying that is the current state of affairs?

[Andy Bee]

One persons guess is as good as another, why don't you request the person who stated that figure to back it up instead of me?

There is land for sale in West Linton, £85,000, without any permissions. You're not seriously trying to tell me that it would be worth 8-10 x that if it had the necessary consent?

The plot is 7.5 acres.

https://www.cullenkilshaw.com/residential-property/properties-for-sale/property-details/?prop=239149

Why don't you go onto a planning portal and scope it out for us and settle the debate?


The link I posted on the previous page showed 0.48 acre plots for £225k, I know the land is worth £8k an acre in its original form as I know the farmer neighbouring this one. The same farmer sold similar sized plots 10 years ago for £125k and the houses built were worth £500-£600k each, they're now getting close to being worth £1m hence the near doubling in price of the land. I know of a previous sale in the same area around 30 years ago in which a 21 acre field was bought for £50k with no hope of planning at the time but the buyer and a local lawyer found a loophole in which they gained planning because they planned the houses as crofts and planned a bantom shed on every plot. Those plots sold for £50k each for 0.25 acres and are now full of close to £1m houses. There's an old outdoor tennis court in Broxburn split into 4 plots with planning at around £100k a plot for sale right now, how big is a tennis court? It's the going rate for land with planning at the moment whether that's profiteering or not.

[lapsedhibee]

Again, my farming neighbour had land with little value, coo sheds, field margins etc. He obtained outline planning permission to build 6 houses. He's then sold each plot in the early 1990s for at least £100k. So £600k in the pocket for around £6k outlay to an architect. Damn good if you get it. Land value increase from 0 to £600k.

It wouldn't have had no value though, if it was at all developable. It would have had, at the very least, 'hope value'.

[Moulin Yarns]

It wouldn't have had no value though, if it was at all developable. It would have had, at the very least, 'hope value'.

OK, field margin and dilapidated coo shed, not valuable to anyone bar the farmer,until he gets planning approval, when the value increases many times. That value us £100k and is added to the building costs.

[lapsedhibee]

OK, field margin and dilapidated coo shed, not valuable to anyone bar the farmer,until he gets planning approval, when the value increases many times. That value us £100k and is added to the building costs.

Hope value (https://www.savills.co.uk/blog/article/218780/residential-property/in-plain-english-hope-value.aspx) can be substantial long before planning approval is achieved. Though of course never as high as the value of land once it actually has approval.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hope value (https://www.savills.co.uk/blog/article/218780/residential-property/in-plain-english-hope-value.aspx) can be substantial long before planning approval is achieved. Though of course never as high as the value of land once it actually has approval.

What is hope value?Hope value is the value of potential planning permission that attaches to land subject to a CPO. Currently, hope value can be taken into account when calculating compensation for landowners whose land is subject to a CPO.

Nowt to do with a farmer realising his assets!

[lapsedhibee]

What is hope value? Hope value is the value of potential planning permission that attaches to land subject to a CPO. Currently, hope value can be taken into account when calculating compensation for landowners whose land is subject to a CPO.

Nowt to do with a farmer realising his assets!

Hope value's not just about CPOs. HMRC are looking for it in CGT, IHT etc etc etc. If the farmer had died before he applied for planning permission, the hope value would/should have been counted in his estate. That land's value was never nothing or next to nothing.

But my general point is that the narrative of 'land is worth nothing without planning and £100k with planning, therefore planning costs £100k' isn't entirely accurate. Land that people can build on, or want to build on, for whatever reason, is always going to be more expensive than land which can't be built on, or which people don't want to build on. (And this situation's bound to get worse, not better, over time, because The Chief's not making any more of it and meanwhile His Children continue to multiply.) It's more accurately the buildable land which costs £100k, rather than the planning.

Doing away with the current planning system and building control, and building standards as well, would undoubtedly tend to make housing cheaper for young people. But the cost to the built environment would be high. Paint the Castle pink to attract more paying visitors, why not? Neon signs on the Scott Monument to brighten it up a bit? Maybe selfish but I would rather have Edinburgh's built environment under the influence of the likes of, say, the Cockburn Association and planning department than determined by builders whose building decisions might be motivated purely by £££. Too expensive to connect new cludgies to sewers? Dump stuff in the nearest watercourse, that'll take it away! Same logic should apply outside cities too, imo. 'Lighter touch' regulation? Hmm. Maybe not in a week when the Grenfell report's out.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hope value's not just about CPOs. HMRC are looking for it in CGT, IHT etc etc etc. If the farmer had died before he applied for planning permission, the hope value would/should have been counted in his estate. That land's value was never nothing or next to nothing.

But my general point is that the narrative of 'land is worth nothing without planning and £100k with planning, therefore planning costs £100k' isn't entirely accurate. Land that people can build on, or want to build on, for whatever reason, is always going to be more expensive than land which can't be built on, or which people don't want to build on. (And this situation's bound to get worse, not better, over time, because The Chief's not making any more of it and meanwhile His Children continue to multiply.) It's more accurately the buildable land which costs £100k, rather than the planning.

Doing away with the current planning system and building control, and building standards as well, would undoubtedly tend to make housing cheaper for young people. But the cost to the built environment would be high. Paint the Castle pink to attract more paying visitors, why not? Neon signs on the Scott Monument to brighten it up a bit? Maybe selfish but I would rather have Edinburgh's built environment under the influence of the likes of, say, the Cockburn Association and planning department than determined by builders whose building decisions might be motivated purely by £££. Too expensive to connect new cludgies to sewers? Dump stuff in the nearest watercourse, that'll take it away! Same logic should apply outside cities too, imo. 'Lighter touch' regulation? Hmm. Maybe not in a week when the Grenfell report's out.
Who's saying don't have regulation were saying build at decent standards, there is lots of great low co2 and green building projects. The fact is when you've got over 100k kids homeless we have no choice. It's always people with homes who tell the people without homes that we don't need more homes.

[lapsedhibee]

Who's saying don't have regulation were saying build at decent standards, there is lots of great low co2 and green building projects. The fact is when you've got over 100k kids homeless we have no choice. It's always people with homes who tell the people without homes that we don't need more homes.

Higher standards adds to the cost of building homes, making them more expensive for young people to buy.
I never said we don't need more homes, I was talking about the idea that planners are the problem.

[superfurryhibby]

It’s not the only factor. My point was build more houses if we want to keep prices down. Edinburgh has a massive shortage of houses. We can either build them or try make people leave the city.
Planning adds about £100k to the value of a house before a brick is laid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cullen Kilshaw..who cares? The listing for the £85k piece of land is exactly the same.

And the cost of a house is the cost for the buyer of the house perspective.

The uplift in value of land can be associated to many reasons, not just the actual cost of putting in a planning request (substantial though that may be in some cases). Quite clearly one of the main drivers is the limited amount of land where such requests will succeed.

But back to your original assertions:

The £100k additional cost to the buyer of a house for the land element was a spurious figure.

Then you stated the stat was made up to suit an [undefined] agenda.

Yet here we have a real live example of one acre of land costing £11k the other close to £1m. The main difference is one has planning permission for a house the other not.

That’s not “made up” nor ‘spurious’ it’s right there in front of you. With the added bonus of being agenda free.

Quite simply the cost of the land that you are allowed to build a house on is a substantial cost of the end product.

Whether anyone thinks that’s fair or right and / or absolutely every one is ‘profiteering’ along the way is open to question for sure but surely there is no denying that is the current state of affairs?

Of course buying land with planning consent is much more costly. However, I would hazard a guess that buying an individual plot for 85k and commissioning an architect to design a home and submit for plans for consideration by planning won't be adding a 100,000k to your bill.

That is by the by though.The whole discussion started with my response to a comment that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of a new house before a brick is laid. The poster referred to Edinburgh. That is the spurious figure I was referring to. Clearly a development that builds c300 houses, like the one out at West Craigs in Edinburgh, that isn't going to cost £100,000 x 300 in planning costs, is it?

[RyeSloan]

Of course buying land with planning consent is much more costly. However, I would hazard a guess that buying an individual plot for 85k and commissioning an architect to design a home and submit for plans for consideration by planning won't be adding a 100,000k to your bill.

That is by the by though.The whole discussion started with my response to a comment that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of a new house before a brick is laid. The poster referred to Edinburgh. That is the spurious figure I was referring to. Clearly a development that builds c300 houses, like the one out at West Craigs in Edinburgh, that isn't going to cost £100,000 x 300 in planning costs, is it?


Of course buying land with planning consent is much more costly. However, I would hazard a guess that buying an individual plot for 85k and commissioning an architect to design a home and submit for plans for consideration by planning won't be adding a 100,000k to your bill.

That is by the by though.The whole discussion started with my response to a comment that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of a new house before a brick is laid. The poster referred to Edinburgh. That is the spurious figure I was referring to. Clearly a development that builds c300 houses, like the one out at West Craigs in Edinburgh, that isn't going to cost £100,000 x 300 in planning costs, is it?


Of course buying land with planning consent is much more costly. However, I would hazard a guess that buying an individual plot for 85k and commissioning an architect to design a home and submit for plans for consideration by planning won't be adding a 100,000k to your bill.

That is by the by though.The whole discussion started with my response to a comment that planning adds £100,000 to the cost of a new house before a brick is laid. The poster referred to Edinburgh. That is the spurious figure I was referring to. Clearly a development that builds c300 houses, like the one out at West Craigs in Edinburgh, that isn't going to cost £100,000 x 300 in planning costs, is it?

Riiight.

You literally replied to a post that made it clear the discussions on value differences were relating to land that would not get planning versus land that did have approval to build….by calling it a made up stat to suit an agenda.

Then there is a number of other posts in the thread clarifying a number of times the discussion was over land that didn’t have planing permission versus land that did.

At no point, ever, was anyone suggesting that the difference was only down to the cost of an individual planning application but was quite clearly down to have consent granted versus not (or very unlikely to ever get).

I know that, you know that, but if you want to pretend the whole discussion was about the semantics of what was meant by ‘planning’ then you crack on [emoji1787]

[Stairway 2 7]

Higher standards adds to the cost of building homes, making them more expensive for young people to buy.
I never said we don't need more homes, I was talking about the idea that planners are the problem.

Planning is the problem. Planning deliberately takes long in the UK. Rail projects and urban rail projects take over twice the time to get through planning than western Europe so they cost on average almost double the price. Our house planning comes from rules written in 1947 and unlike Europe our planning isn't national is controlled by councils. In normal countries they government say we've a housing emergency so pick areas to build. In the uk it goes to a group of local people who have houses deciding they don't want newcomers or people without houses to get houses near them.

Paris has only 6% of homes spare so the government wants quickly to build to get that number to 8% and bring prices down. I don't believe that they will be built at a lower standard than ours or German of Spanish homes, rail or bridges that take half the time to go through planning.

[Moulin Yarns]

Planning is the problem. Planning deliberately takes long in the UK. Rail projects and urban rail projects take over twice the time to get through planning than western Europe so they cost on average almost double the price. Our house planning comes from rules written in 1947 and unlike Europe our planning isn't national is controlled by councils. In normal countries they government say we've a housing emergency so pick areas to build. In the uk it goes to a group of local people who have houses deciding they don't want newcomers or people without houses to get houses near them.

Paris has only 6% of homes spare so the government wants quickly to build to get that number to 8% and bring prices down. I don't believe that they will be built at a lower standard than ours or German of Spanish homes, rail or bridges that take half the time to go through planning.

https://www.gov.scot/policies/planning-architecture/reforming-planning-system/

Planning Scotland act 2019.

[lapsedhibee]

Planning is the problem. Planning deliberately takes long in the UK. Rail projects and urban rail projects take over twice the time to get through planning than western Europe so they cost on average almost double the price. Our house planning comes from rules written in 1947 and unlike Europe our planning isn't national is controlled by councils. In normal countries they government say we've a housing emergency so pick areas to build. In the uk it goes to a group of local people who have houses deciding they don't want newcomers or people without houses to get houses near them.

Paris has only 6% of homes spare so the government wants quickly to build to get that number to 8% and bring prices down. I don't believe that they will be built at a lower standard than ours or German of Spanish homes, rail or bridges that take half the time to go through planning.

Quite agree with you, local democracy slows things down. In fact, so does democracy in general.

[superfurryhibby]

Riiight.

You literally replied to a post that made it clear the discussions on value differences were relating to land that would not get planning versus land that did have approval to build….by calling it a made up stat to suit an agenda.

Then there is a number of other posts in the thread clarifying a number of times the discussion was over land that didn’t have planing permission versus land that did.

At no point, ever, was anyone suggesting that the difference was only down to the cost of an individual planning application but was quite clearly down to have consent granted versus not (or very unlikely to ever get).

I know that, you know that, but if you want to pretend the whole discussion was about the semantics of what was meant by ‘planning’ then you crack on [emoji1787]

I literally replied to a post that made a blanket reference to planning adding 100,000k to the cost of a house. The conversation grew arms and legs thereafter, as they do. In order to assist your understanding, I even quoted that post for your benefit.
But aye, you're obviously always right.


"It’s not the only factor. My point was build more houses if we want to keep prices down. Edinburgh has a massive shortage of houses. We can either build them or try make people leave the city. Planning adds about £100k to the value of a house before a brick is laid".

[Stairway 2 7]

Riiight.

You literally replied to a post that made it clear the discussions on value differences were relating to land that would not get planning versus land that did have approval to build….by calling it a made up stat to suit an agenda.

Then there is a number of other posts in the thread clarifying a number of times the discussion was over land that didn’t have planing permission versus land that did.

At no point, ever, was anyone suggesting that the difference was only down to the cost of an individual planning application but was quite clearly down to have consent granted versus not (or very unlikely to ever get).

I know that, you know that, but if you want to pretend the whole discussion was about the semantics of what was meant by ‘planning’ then you crack on [emoji1787]

Not related to land but interesting that a study shows that a house with planning permission can add around 100k to the value compared to if it didn't have planning. So 100k

https://www.introducertoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2021/12/study-planning-permission-can-boost-property-prices/

Study – Planning permission can boost property prices

The biggest boost is in Bradford, where a home with planning permission sells for 52% more than those without – that’s an £81,789 rise.

Selling with pre-granted planning permission in both Birmingham and Bournemouth can also increase the value of a property by 51%. Both areas are also home to the highest premium in a financial sense at £106,674 and £159,049 respectively.

[superfurryhibby]

Not related to land but interesting that a study shows that a house with planning permission can add around 100k to the value compared to if it didn't have planning. So 100k

https://www.introducertoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2021/12/study-planning-permission-can-boost-property-prices/

Study – Planning permission can boost property prices

The biggest boost is in Bradford, where a home with planning permission sells for 52% more than those without – that’s an £81,789 rise.

Selling with pre-granted planning permission in both Birmingham and Bournemouth can also increase the value of a property by 51%. Both areas are also home to the highest premium in a financial sense at £106,674 and £159,049 respectively.

Not quite though is it:rolleyes:

The house price premium associated with planning permission properties across these 20 major UK cities ranges from 1% to 52% but on average, homebuyers can expect it to increase property price expectations by 21% or £46,000.

However, the ability for a quicker build doesn’t have the same effect in every city. In both Plymouth and Nottingham, pre-granted planning permission only brings a 1% premium when looking to sell, while in Swansea it’s just 2%"

However you look at it. The planning process in itself isn't costing 100,000k per house. It may add significant value to land, but that isn't just due to the cost of planning is it? There obviously commercial factors at work.




"

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.mygov.scot/planning-permission/what-happens-next#:~:text=In%20most%20cases%2C%20planning%20app lications,time%20limit%20is%204%20months.


Once you've applied for planning permission, the planning authority will decide whether to grant planning permission.

How long will it take?

In most cases, planning applications are decided within 2 months.

For unusually large or complex applications the time limit is 4 months. For these types of applications, Planning Authorities should offer to enter into a*processing agreement*with developers which provides certainty and a project managed approach to decision making.

[superfurryhibby]

Living Rent campaign for the SNP to reaffirm their commitment to fair rent has broad support from the countries biggest trade unions.

https://www.livingrent.org/living_rent_and_trade_unions_send_open_letter_call ing_for_rent_controls

"Dear First Minister John Swinney, Cabinet Secretary Shirley Ann Sommerville and Minister Paul McLennan,

We, the undersigned, are writing to you to emphasise the urgent necessity of introducing effective rent controls in Scotland.

Forty years on, we are still reeling from Thatcher’s privatisation of council homes and the ending of rent controls. Eight local authorities have declared local housing emergencies, with rising homelessness, spiralling rents, overall disrepair of our housing stock and increasing numbers of people without a stable tenure, or in overcrowded homes. The Scottish Government has declared a national housing emergency , as a result of the systemic pressures facing Scotland’s tenants.

Homelessness is rising month on month with local authorities failing to meet their statutory duties to people seeking homeless assistance. One of the driving factors of homelessness is the inability to meet rent. This is leading to evictions across the country and local authorities buckling financially under the strain.

Rents have doubled in the last ten years for most private tenants while wages have stagnated. This has dramatic impacts on the most vulnerable, with nearly ten thousand children in temporary accommodation as of September 2023. We know that rent increases disproportionately affect women, young people, people of colour, single parents, disabled people and migrants. We also know that unaffordable rents are a major driver of poverty. Housing costs are the largest financial outgoing in most households, and while low pay is the main cause of escalating poverty rates, our market-driven housing system is the main driver of both poverty and wealth. Scotland’s lowest paid workers are forced to pay a significant proportion of their incomes on rent, with those on the minimum wage paying 50% or more of their take home pay, often on poor quality, badly insulated housing.

More and more of our members are struggling to make ends meet - this must end and you have the power to act. If your government is serious about ending the housing emergency and child poverty, robust and meaningful rent controls must be part of the solution. International evidence shows that well designed rent controls have the potential to decrease inequality, to support private tenants’ security of tenure, and to improve the quality of housing stock overall.

Right now, the Scottish Government has a chance to show what a progressive response to the housing crisis could and should look like. It can demonstrate how effective rent controls and greater protections for tenants can create a fairer Scotland for everyone.

We ask you to show the leadership that Scotland needs and deliver the innovative, bold, and effective policies already outlined in the housing bill as published. We look forward to your response,

Kind regards,

Aditi Jehangir, Chair, Living Rent

Roz Foyer, General Secretary, Scottish Trades Union Congress,

Lilian Macer, Regional Secretary UNISON Scotland,

Derek Thomson, Unite Scottish Secretary,

Gordon Martin, RMT Scotland Regional Organiser,

Louise Gilmour, Secretary, GMB Scotland,

Mick Whelan, ASLEF General Secretary,

Jeanette Findlay, President UCU Scotland,

John Jamieson on behalf of PCS Scottish Sector Committee

Sai Viswanathan, President NUS Scotland

Continue Reading

[Stairway 2 7]

Not quite though is it:rolleyes:

The house price premium associated with planning permission properties across these 20 major UK cities ranges from 1% to 52% but on average, homebuyers can expect it to increase property price expectations by 21% or £46,000.

However, the ability for a quicker build doesn’t have the same effect in every city. In both Plymouth and Nottingham, pre-granted planning permission only brings a 1% premium when looking to sell, while in Swansea it’s just 2%"

However you look at it. The planning process in itself isn't costing 100,000k per house. It may add significant value to land, but that isn't just due to the cost of planning is it? There obviously commercial factors at work.




"

I read elsewhere that London and Edinburgh show the biggest increase to a house with planning, seems obvious as the two most expensive cities. That's separate from the conversation about land with and without planning. It's pretty obvious the difference is huge, seeing the examples given already. It's a weird hill to die on.

[Stairway 2 7]

Living Rent campaign for the SNP to reaffirm their commitment to fair rent has broad support from the countries biggest trade unions.

https://www.livingrent.org/living_rent_and_trade_unions_send_open_letter_call ing_for_rent_controls

"Dear First Minister John Swinney, Cabinet Secretary Shirley Ann Sommerville and Minister Paul McLennan,

We, the undersigned, are writing to you to emphasise the urgent necessity of introducing effective rent controls in Scotland.

Forty years on, we are still reeling from Thatcher’s privatisation of council homes and the ending of rent controls. Eight local authorities have declared local housing emergencies, with rising homelessness, spiralling rents, overall disrepair of our housing stock and increasing numbers of people without a stable tenure, or in overcrowded homes. The Scottish Government has declared a national housing emergency , as a result of the systemic pressures facing Scotland’s tenants.

Homelessness is rising month on month with local authorities failing to meet their statutory duties to people seeking homeless assistance. One of the driving factors of homelessness is the inability to meet rent. This is leading to evictions across the country and local authorities buckling financially under the strain.

Rents have doubled in the last ten years for most private tenants while wages have stagnated. This has dramatic impacts on the most vulnerable, with nearly ten thousand children in temporary accommodation as of September 2023. We know that rent increases disproportionately affect women, young people, people of colour, single parents, disabled people and migrants. We also know that unaffordable rents are a major driver of poverty. Housing costs are the largest financial outgoing in most households, and while low pay is the main cause of escalating poverty rates, our market-driven housing system is the main driver of both poverty and wealth. Scotland’s lowest paid workers are forced to pay a significant proportion of their incomes on rent, with those on the minimum wage paying 50% or more of their take home pay, often on poor quality, badly insulated housing.

More and more of our members are struggling to make ends meet - this must end and you have the power to act. If your government is serious about ending the housing emergency and child poverty, robust and meaningful rent controls must be part of the solution. International evidence shows that well designed rent controls have the potential to decrease inequality, to support private tenants’ security of tenure, and to improve the quality of housing stock overall.

Right now, the Scottish Government has a chance to show what a progressive response to the housing crisis could and should look like. It can demonstrate how effective rent controls and greater protections for tenants can create a fairer Scotland for everyone.

We ask you to show the leadership that Scotland needs and deliver the innovative, bold, and effective policies already outlined in the housing bill as published. We look forward to your response,

Kind regards,

Aditi Jehangir, Chair, Living Rent

Roz Foyer, General Secretary, Scottish Trades Union Congress,

Lilian Macer, Regional Secretary UNISON Scotland,

Derek Thomson, Unite Scottish Secretary,

Gordon Martin, RMT Scotland Regional Organiser,

Louise Gilmour, Secretary, GMB Scotland,

Mick Whelan, ASLEF General Secretary,

Jeanette Findlay, President UCU Scotland,

John Jamieson on behalf of PCS Scottish Sector Committee

Sai Viswanathan, President NUS Scotland

Continue Reading

Seems to have failed in Argentina. Rents skyrocketed in Scotland when it wad in too. I'd like to see if it's not had the opposite effect it wanted anywhere but can't find any. Mexico is trying it. Most economists I've seen say it will raise prices, I sincerely hope they are wrong and it works.

I think for it to work it would have to be matched with a large increase in housebuilding.

[superfurryhibby]

Not related to land but interesting that a study shows that a house with planning permission can add around 100k to the value compared to if it didn't have planning. So 100k

https://www.introducertoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2021/12/study-planning-permission-can-boost-property-prices/

Study – Planning permission can boost property prices

The biggest boost is in Bradford, where a home with planning permission sells for 52% more than those without – that’s an £81,789 rise.

Selling with pre-granted planning permission in both Birmingham and Bournemouth can also increase the value of a property by 51%. Both areas are also home to the highest premium in a financial sense at £106,674 and £159,049 respectively.


I read elsewhere that London and Edinburgh show the biggest increase to a house with planning, seems obvious as the two most expensive cities. That's separate from the conversation about land with and without planning. It's pretty obvious the difference is huge, seeing the examples given already. It's a weird hill to die on.

It's still not blanket figure of 100k though is it, but you can't acknowledge that. It's a random figure and not borne out by the study you quoted rather selectively.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's still not blanket figure of 100k though is it, but you can't acknowledge that. It's a random figure and not borne out by the study you quoted rather selectively.

If I was betting my house I'd say it looks to be more than that in Scotland looking at all the examples given, not that it matters or I care much either way

[Ozyhibby]

Type ‘cost of Britains broken planning system’ into google and you can read articles in their thousands on it. It’s one of the few issues where agreement from the Spectator and the New statesman or the Telegraph and the Guardian can be found.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/13492697/snp-blasted-betrayal-water-down-planned-rent-controls/?utm_campaign=native_share&utm_source=sharebar_native&utm_medium=sharebar_native

Rent controls to get the boot? Would be great news for tenants and housebuilding. [emoji1696]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

No fault evections to be brought in in England also landlords can't ask for more than advertised, repairs to houses must be done in a specific time. About time they caught up to Scottish standards

[Bishop Hibee]

https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/seafield-regeneration-community-consultation/

Up to 2700 houses could be built.

Unusually for Edinburgh Council this is actually inspired by ‘bottom up’ activism by members of Leith Links, Craigentinny and Portobello community councils in response to developers such as Buccleuch Holdings buying up property in the area. The council responded to pressure and realised that a wall of high ‘luxury’ flats along the existing drab walkway wasn’t acceptable.

No doubt what actually appears in the ground won’t match the plan but hopefully their will be a decent amount of affordable housing.

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/yimbyalliance/status/1833789891840209352?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Good thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/robertkwolek/status/1837054583115280654?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240921/2b9faad60a6868a1fe47e8faaadfb4aa.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

https://x.com/robertkwolek/status/1837054583115280654?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240921/2b9faad60a6868a1fe47e8faaadfb4aa.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Although I'm only looking at this subjectively, I have great difficulty believing that graph when I compare Germany to the UK. There's no way I could have got the house I have in the location I have for anywhere near the price I paid in the UK. One of the things I like doing when I'm back in the UK is browsing estate agents windows and looking at what I would get for the same money in the UK and it's incredibly obvious (at least to me) that the market in the UK is hugely overinflated.

[Stairway 2 7]

Although I'm only looking at this subjectively, I have great difficulty believing that graph when I compare Germany to the UK. There's no way I could have got the house I have in the location I have for anywhere near the price I paid in the UK. One of the things I like doing when I'm back in the UK is browsing estate agents windows and looking at what I would get for the same money in the UK and it's incredibly obvious (at least to me) that the market in the UK is hugely overinflated.

No it's how much they are to build not buy and its for new builds, cheap crap that sells for a packet as we have such a short supply available. I'd read Britain would have to build 8 million homes to have the same amount of free homes as Germany, supply and demand. Scotland has the lowest amount of spare homes of any oecd nation 5 times less than Germany


@RobertKwolek
This graph goes a long way towards explaining why British houses look so cheap and are such low quality, even though they're expensive to buy.

They are, in fact, built cheaply

The graph comes from this report, very much worth reading: https://institute.global/insights/economic-prosperity/the-urgent-need-to-build-more-homes

and I'd also recommend this as a relevant follow-up to issues of not just housing but the economy at large: https://ukfoundations.co

[Moulin Yarns]

https://x.com/robertkwolek/status/1837054583115280654?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240921/2b9faad60a6868a1fe47e8faaadfb4aa.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.hebhomes.com/prices

AGH501 2 bedrooms turnkey cost of 250k that's how much to build in Scotland a factory built home.

[Hibrandenburg]

No it's how much they are to build not buy and its for new builds, cheap crap that sells for a packet as we have such a short supply available. I'd read Britain would have to build 8 million homes to have the same amount of free homes as Germany, supply and demand. Scotland has the lowest amount of spare homes of any oecd nation 5 times less than Germany


@RobertKwolek
This graph goes a long way towards explaining why British houses look so cheap and are such low quality, even though they're expensive to buy.

They are, in fact, built cheaply

The graph comes from this report, very much worth reading: https://institute.global/insights/economic-prosperity/the-urgent-need-to-build-more-homes

and I'd also recommend this as a relevant follow-up to issues of not just housing but the economy at large: https://ukfoundations.co

So prices are hugely overinflated.

[Stairway 2 7]

So prices are hugely overinflated.

Yeah we get a plasterboard palace and pay through the roof for the pleasure. Don't know what the average price difference is between Germany and UK but yous are getting some serious bang for your buck and great quality homes it seems

[RyeSloan]

https://x.com/robertkwolek/status/1837054583115280654?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240921/2b9faad60a6868a1fe47e8faaadfb4aa.jpg


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Hard to compare the proportions of build v land % from that chart and not sure it can be trusted considering it suggests land in the Netherlands seems to be almost free!

No doubt though that U.K. houses seem poor value on any quality v cost metric though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah we get a plasterboard palace and pay through the roof for the pleasure. Don't know what the average price difference is between Germany and UK but yous are getting some serious bang for your buck and great quality homes it seems

Might have something to do with the fact that Germans prefer to rent than buy meaning builders have to offer quality builds if they're going to get contracts. That and you have to have completed an apprenticeship in nearly every line of work to be able to carry out the job. :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/liamthorpecho/status/1837574446661415340?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[jamie_1875]

Might have something to do with the fact that Germans prefer to rent than buy meaning builders have to offer quality builds if they're going to get contracts. That and you have to have completed an apprenticeship in nearly every line of work to be able to carry out the job. :dunno:

Who owns all the family homes and apartments then? Often wondered this. Are they government owned or private?

[Ozyhibby]

Who owns all the family homes and apartments then? Often wondered this. Are they government owned or private?

Private I think. Prices are kept low by the spare capacity. Power lies with the renter.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Who owns all the family homes and apartments then? Often wondered this. Are they government owned or private?

There are laws in place that have their roots in the 1920's. These laws are different from State to State in Germany but basically give building companies and organisations the right to build housing at a reduced cost or are given state funded subsidies. The strings attached are that these houses are then contracted out as Sozialwohnungen (social housing) and the owners are contractually obliged to rent at reduced prices for a set number of years (decades) to provide decent housing for low earners.

[Stairway 2 7]

Private I think. Prices are kept low by the spare capacity. Power lies with the renter.


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Yeah private. UK has one of the lowest number of private landlords in Western Europe per head

[Stairway 2 7]

Homelessness explosion in Scotland is shocking especially the number of homeless children. We need to turbo charge council and council association housing. There isn't much I would prioritise in the budget above making a child not be homeless

https://news.stv.tv/politics/number-of-live-homelessness-cases-in-scotland-surges-to-record-high#Echobox=1727168950-1

Number of live homelessness cases in Scotland surges to record-high
The number of households in temporary accommodation is also at record highs, increasing by 9% from last year to surge to 16,330.

Figures released on Tuesday showed that 31,870 homelessness applications were ongoing as of March 31.

That’s up from 29,408 last year and 10,642 in 2003 when current records began.

The number of households in temporary accommodation – as well as the amount of children in such homes – is also at a record high, increasing by 9% from last year to surge to 16,330

[Moulin Yarns]

An advert popped up on Instagram,


https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gV osZweN2Aa4e6cY2wkFMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTq Gtc_TqCXRiANF1tilLaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin 6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNAHqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+house&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2




Housing solution for temporary accommodation? There's a few options, search tiny house on amazon.

[Ozyhibby]

An advert popped up on Instagram,


https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gV osZweN2Aa4e6cY2wkFMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTq Gtc_TqCXRiANF1tilLaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin 6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNAHqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+house&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2




Housing solution for temporary accommodation? There's a few options, search tiny house on amazon.

We can just put everyone in static caravans if we want a cheap solution.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.gov.scot/news/increasing-funding-for-affordable-housing/

Good idea?


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[superfurryhibby]

https://www.gov.scot/news/increasing-funding-for-affordable-housing/

Good idea?


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If managed properly then it would appear so. I really don't understand the role of the financial intermediary?

"A £22 million investment has been made into a scheme to increase investment in affordable homes and deliver more housing.

As part of Scotland's Charitable Bond Programme, the Scottish Government has provided funding to issue two new bonds via finance intermediary Allia to housing providers Link and Cairn Housing Association to provide support for more than 150 new homes.

The programme, which has been running since 2014, provides loans to social landlords to construct new affordable homes, with the interest being reinvested by the Scottish Government into the affordable housing budget to support more homes for social rent.

This latest extension will see the total number of bonds issued increased to 40 and a total investment of more than £482 million.

[Ozyhibby]

If managed properly then it would appear so. I really don't understand the role of the financial intermediary?

"A £22 million investment has been made into a scheme to increase investment in affordable homes and deliver more housing.

As part of Scotland's Charitable Bond Programme, the Scottish Government has provided funding to issue two new bonds via finance intermediary Allia to housing providers Link and Cairn Housing Association to provide support for more than 150 new homes.

The programme, which has been running since 2014, provides loans to social landlords to construct new affordable homes, with the interest being reinvested by the Scottish Government into the affordable housing budget to support more homes for social rent.

This latest extension will see the total number of bonds issued increased to 40 and a total investment of more than £482 million.

Only 150 homes though. If that is all govt can afford to invest then they need to find a way to leverage in some private investment. We need a lot more than 150 homes.


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[RyeSloan]

If managed properly then it would appear so. I really don't understand the role of the financial intermediary?

"A £22 million investment has been made into a scheme to increase investment in affordable homes and deliver more housing.

As part of Scotland's Charitable Bond Programme, the Scottish Government has provided funding to issue two new bonds via finance intermediary Allia to housing providers Link and Cairn Housing Association to provide support for more than 150 new homes.

The programme, which has been running since 2014, provides loans to social landlords to construct new affordable homes, with the interest being reinvested by the Scottish Government into the affordable housing budget to support more homes for social rent.

This latest extension will see the total number of bonds issued increased to 40 and a total investment of more than £482 million.

The SG is simply the source of capital.

The intermediary essentially does the donkey work. Most likely doing due diligence on the proposals from those seeking to raise the capital, the legals around the specific bond issuance and looking after the flow of monies between the parties and the like.

The assumption here is the bond interest will be lower (and thus the lower funding costs will ultimately feed through to lower rent) than what can be found on the normal capital markets and that the SG uses that return on capital and the return of capital to feed back into the loop.

All seems sensible enough but without actual ££ figures on how much better that approach is and how large this is in ££ against the rest of funding in the sector who really knows if it’s making any difference and if so how much.

[Andy Bee]

The SG is simply the source of capital.

The intermediary essentially does the donkey work. Most likely doing due diligence on the proposals from those seeking to raise the capital, the legals around the specific bond issuance and looking after the flow of monies between the parties and the like.

The assumption here is the bond interest will be lower (and thus the lower funding costs will ultimately feed through to lower rent) than what can be found on the normal capital markets and that the SG uses that return on capital and the return of capital to feed back into the loop.

All seems sensible enough but without actual ££ figures on how much better that approach is and how large this is in ££ against the rest of funding in the sector who really knows if it’s making any difference and if so how much.

Seems to have been ramped up a bit in 2023.

https://alliacc.com/debt-capital-markets/charitable-bonds/

[Paul1642]

An advert popped up on Instagram,


https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gV osZweN2Aa4e6cY2wkFMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTq Gtc_TqCXRiANF1tilLaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin 6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNAHqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+house&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2




Housing solution for temporary accommodation? There's a few options, search tiny house on amazon.

How much does a basic house actually cost to build in terms of labour and materials.

Of the cost of a house price, the land is probably the majority and the roads and utilities another chunk. I googled UK’s cheapest new build and the result was

“ Hyndburn, North West (£99,034 average new build price”

By the time you bought land to put the cabin on and built some roads and connected it to the grid, sewage ext, the price would be much higher than £12500. For all the difference in price you would probably be as-well building a low spec house.

[Moulin Yarns]

Only 150 homes though. If that is all govt can afford to invest then they need to find a way to leverage in some private investment. We need a lot more than 150 homes.


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https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gV osZweN2Aa4e6cY2wkFMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTq Gtc_TqCXRiANF1tilLaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin 6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNAHqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+house&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2

Oh look, cheap affordable temporary accommodation, which you dissed. Static caravans are 3 times the cost. The biggest problem is land to put them on.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLVUS-Container-Expandable-Portable-Restroom%EF%BC%8CPortable/dp/B0CZ1472MX/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=Q8VNDE64RDXC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DVxwH4kdCzAzxrkSE0O8Yf6BGq9rPM5gV osZweN2Aa4e6cY2wkFMlfBfL9PLJCknlpj6lZHpOrqYO0i5sTq Gtc_TqCXRiANF1tilLaSZaPf_PaMeD_kTmqtKqOih_ab8zJqin 6MSF4rFgA2Hi3vwNAHqnZywgot-MwiA-tc6WhniGCTAFn3NxTBvet-owcVa9IfECfPfFK_bMw3vMtmwpA.khCRV7bp5GicwsDx1zBhpt 9J9PYMygczSH0AG4MzOtA&dib_tag=se&keywords=tiny+house&qid=1727785950&sprefix=tiny%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-2

Oh look, cheap affordable temporary accommodation, which you dissed. Static caravans are 3 times the cost. The biggest problem is land to put them on.

I wasn’t dissing it. It’s just that build cost isn’t what is making housing unaffordable. It’s the deliberate restricting of the supply of land for putting the houses on. There is less chance of getting planning for one of them than an actual house.


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[Andy Bee]

It's land that's the big problem and the irony is everyone is screaming out for land reform whether that's in the form of a land tax, some sort of Council Tax equivalent or whatever. There's actually big political points to be had in a radical change of land ownership.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wasn’t dissing it. It’s just that build cost isn’t what is making housing unaffordable. It’s the deliberate restricting of the supply of land for putting the houses on. There is less chance of getting planning for one of them than an actual house.


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I agree, release the land banks and we could build thousands of homes. Unfortunately the developers hold all the cards. I have a large enough garden that I could put one of those on,but we need thousands.

My point is the costs of the infrastructure is minimal, the land and utility connections are what brings the cost up.

I've no idea what the energy rating of these are, but the hebhomes I linked earlier is A rating for about £150k built.


Edit: I think you, Andy and me are on the same page

[Ozyhibby]

I agree, release the land banks and we could build thousands of homes. Unfortunately the developers hold all the cards. I have a large enough garden that I could put one of those on,but we need thousands.

My point is the costs of the infrastructure is minimal, the land and utility connections are what brings the cost up.

I've no idea what the energy rating of these are, but the hebhomes I linked earlier is A rating for about £150k built.


Edit: I think you, Andy and me are on the same page

I’m not disagreeing. Land needs freed up for building. And the minute you get permission to build on it, you should start getting taxed on it.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I’m not disagreeing. Land needs freed up for building. And the minute you get permission to build on it, you should start getting taxed on it.


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https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

I’m all for schemes like that.[emoji106]


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[superfurryhibby]

https://www.social-bite.co.uk/what-we-do/the-social-bite-village-model/

This model has to be expanded around the country. At least as a stepping stone to a permanent home.

There are some flaws to what has been done by Social Bite Village down at Granton. Two folk sharing a tiny wee cabin isn't a model of temporary housing that works for many, the same with communal kitchen areas.

[Ozyhibby]

There are some flaws to what has been done by Social Bite Village down at Granton. Two folk sharing a tiny wee cabin isn't a model of temporary housing that works for many, the same with communal kitchen areas.

It’s better than sharing a doorway though. No scheme is ever perfect.
I’d prefer we could just build enough houses that these schemes were not needed but until then it’s better than nothing.


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[superfurryhibby]

It’s better than sharing a doorway though. No scheme is ever perfect.
I’d prefer we could just build enough houses that these schemes were not needed but until then it’s better than nothing.


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Of course it's better than a doorway. However, there are other many other less hyped services providing temporary accommodation in Edinburgh and cramped shared living spaces don't feature in them.

There has been a lot of publicity given to Social Bite and whilst it's received huge backing from media, celebrities and the wider public, it's not been a model that has been hugely developed upon. The proposed new village now includes single occupancy cabins.

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course it's better than a doorway. However, there are other many other less hyped services providing temporary accommodation in Edinburgh and cramped shared living spaces don't feature in them.

There has been a lot of publicity given to Social Bite and whilst it's received huge backing from media, celebrities and the wider public, it's not been a model that has been hugely developed upon. The proposed new village now includes single occupancy cabins.

How do you know it's not been developed?

The social cafe movement is huge, and there's more than the Granton village.

[superfurryhibby]

How do you know it's not been developed?

The social cafe movement is huge, and there's more than the Granton village.

I know because I looked at their website. They have three projects accommodating around 50 people across Scotland. This suggests to me that it's a model of housing that hasn't had huge uptake. I'm not saying they don't do good work, but I can guarantee you that there are people in this sector that would make a good case for making more effective use of the resources Social Bite have had access to.

How many Social Bites cafes are there across Scotland? I question the huge description. There are lots of community, social care and religious organisation's feeding people, including our football club.

Social Bites is well marketed and the public like it. Good for them, they do good work, and not just with temporary housing. There is also amazing work from other under the radar organisations, some of whom reach a lot more people.

[Moulin Yarns]

I know because I looked at their website. They have three projects accommodating around 50 people across Scotland. This suggests to me that it's a model of housing that hasn't had huge uptake. I'm not saying they don't do good work, but I can guarantee you that there are people in this sector that would make a good case for making more effective use of the resources Social Bite have had access to.

How many Social Bites cafes are there across Scotland? I question the huge description. There are lots of community, social care and religious organisation's feeding people, including our football club.

Social Bites is well marketed and the public like it. Good for them, they do good work, and not just with temporary housing. There is also amazing work from other under the radar organisations, some of whom reach a lot more people.

Except you are only looking at Social Bite, the Scottish enterprise. Go around the uk, I saw 3 Social cafes in Oxford alone last week on holiday.

[superfurryhibby]

Except you are only looking at Social Bite, the Scottish enterprise. Go around the uk, I saw 3 Social cafes in Oxford alone last week on holiday.


Ok :rolleyes:

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s weird how everyone thinks landlords make a fortune but we have to get charities to provide housing for people? That shows how broken the system is.


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[Andy Bee]

It’s weird how everyone thinks landlords make a fortune but we have to get charities to provide housing for people? That shows how broken the system is.


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That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.

[Ozyhibby]

That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.

Yip. They are being forced out at a rapid pace now. And it’s stopping new housing being built.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Ok :rolleyes:

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

I've no idea if they do well with the money they receive or if they could do better as I don't know the facts. Without other knowledge I'd say they do good and highlight an important cause.

What they say

https://www.social-bite.co.uk/who-we-are/

Social Bite began life as a small coffee shop in Edinburgh, Scotland, in August 2012. We became involved in the homelessness issue when a young homeless man named Peter came into the coffee shop one day to ask us for a job.

When we offered this young man employment, this was the origin of an unexpected 10 years of charitable work and campaigning on the homelessness issue. We believe in the power of supportive employment to transform people’s lives; our ongoing aim is for 1 in 4 of our team to have come from a background of homelessness

This has led to us becoming a major employer of people experiencing homelessness and extreme barriers to employment, as well as one of the largest providers of free freshly made free food in the UK to those in need. We typically provide over 180,000 items of food and hot drinks every year through our network of coffee shops and distributed over 800,000 food packs during the pandemic

From 2016 to 2018, we organised mass participation fundraising sleep out events called Sleep in the Park. These events have seen over 18,000 people sleep out to call for an end to homelessness. The events have raised over £8 million which has been invested in a range of flagship projects to try and bring an end to homelessness

With funds raised from Sleep in the Park events, in 2018, we launched The Social Bite Village. For this project we took on some vacant council-owned land in Edinburgh and built a small village made up of 11 two-bedroom prefabricated houses and a large community hub. Today this village is home to a vibrant community of people helping each other get back on their feet. We partner with the Cyrenians to provide dedicated on-site support with links to employment, education and community activities.

We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland

Starting in 2014 we have opened our shops every Christmas Day and Christmas Eve to host festivities with all the trimmings, for people who might not have anywhere else to go. Since 2020 our annual Festival of Kindness collects gifts and donations throughout the festive period to support for people who are vulnerable or experiencing homelessness

In 2021, we consolidated learnings and launched our UK-wide employment programme. Jobs First provides real job opportunities with wrap-around support to people who have experienced homelessness. We have already supported over 28 formerly homeless people into employment and are working with 9 employers across the UK to transform access to the job market for those who have previously been excluded.

[lapsedhibee]

That's why landlords will be at the top of the list of hammerings come budget time. Although there's not much hammering left they can do.
Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

[Andy Bee]

Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

That for starters but I reckon there'll be more, landlords are an easy target.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not housing but planning which is ridiculously poor in the UK. There must be a reason why planning is so slow and so expensive in the UK it can't just be NIMBYs, some people probably donors must be trousering the money from this insanity

https://x.com/Sam_Dumitriu/status/184220891053237494

@Sam_Dumitriu
It cost £297m to produce the Lower Thames Crossing's 359,866 page long planning application.

That's more than it cost Norway to build the world's longest road tunnel.

The Department for Transport was meant to decide whether to approve it today. Instead, we got another delay

There have been 7 (!) consultations on the Lower Thames Crossing

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok :rolleyes:

The link you posted , which I responded to identifies 4 social bite cafes in the UK, three of which are in Scotland. All the Social Bite Villages are in Scotland.

Social Bite is one enterprise, based in Edinburgh, there are other ones in other areas of the UK!

As I said, in Oxford I found 3 cafes with Social enterprises at the core. Feel free to find others because there are plenty!


I see that Stairway has given more context.

[Ozyhibby]

Are you referring to the predicted alignment of CGT with income tax band, or something else?

Osbourne struck the biggest blow with his section 24 tax changes. It has decimated the industry. There are very few new entrants now and people are selling up and getting out.


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[superfurryhibby]

Social Bite is one enterprise, based in Edinburgh, there are other ones in other areas of the UK!

As I said, in Oxford I found 3 cafes with Social enterprises at the core. Feel free to find others because there are plenty!


I see that Stairway has given more context.

"We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland"

Very disingenuous statement. Social Bite are speaking about contributing funding to a largely Scottish Government funded national initiative, implemented by local authorities in partnership with a number of partners from housing providers and the third sector (not all local authorities have joined this initiative).

History

"That year, Social Bite catalysed a Housing First Pathfinder across 5 cities with £3m funding. In 2019, the Scottish Government connected the Government/CoSLA high level commitment to Housing First to the Social Bite programme that was already underway and in doing so became the main funder of a larger £10m Housing First Pathfinder programme to March 2022 that can reach further.

Toward the end of 2019, Scottish Government approved a progressive programme of work to ensure that people with frontline and lived experience of homelessness, through a new change team, will be at the heart of driving change over the next decade. We are proud to be leading on this work."

https://homelessnetwork.scot/history/

Social Bite are not senior partners within the Housing First initiative, far from it. As far as I understand they aren't really involved in the delivery at all. Information on the various partnerships seems a bit out of date. Here's an annual report from the Rapid Rehousing Transition initiative. I will credit Social Bite with contributing to the funding, alongside Merchant's House Glasgow and the Scottish Government, but not with providing the properties or supporting the people who live in them.

Rapid Rehousing Transition Initiative Plans are part of Scotland’s strategy to end homelessness, developed and delivered in response to local authority
circumstances. Local authorities have been working on the development and implementation of their rapid rehousing transition plan (RRTP) since 2019 and this report provides a summary of the work carried out by local authorities and their partners on progressing their plans in 2020/21. Many well known providers quoted, not Social Bite though.


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/progress-report/2022/05/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/documents/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/govscot%3Adocument/Rapid%2BRehousing%2BTransition%2BPlans%2BAnnual%2B Report-%2B2020-21.pdf

The founder of Social Bite is a polemic figure. He has been fantastic at engaging the wider public, fund raising and publicity/raising awareness of homelessness, whilst also managing to be subject to investigation by the Scottish Charities regulator, which was upheld (this was around governance).

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/holyroodsources/status/1842467259396272349?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[wookie70]

It's land that's the big problem and the irony is everyone is screaming out for land reform whether that's in the form of a land tax, some sort of Council Tax equivalent or whatever. There's actually big political points to be had in a radical change of land ownership.

I think the SNP could get back on track if they started forming policy on radical land reform. Tax would be one way but I would rather the land was back in public hands with a view to building new towns and houses. CPO at the lowest cost possible massive chunks of land that was essentially gifted to Lords and Dukes and use it for the common good. Better still just take it back much of it was acquired on the back on citizens who got nothing for what they sacrificed

[Moulin Yarns]

"We also created and launched Scotland’s Housing First program. For this program we secured 830 mainstream flats across 5 cities to provide permanent homes to Scotland’s rough sleepers and alongside The Scottish Government, we helped to fund wrap-around support to help people sustain their tenancies. More than 1333 people have now been given homes with support, and the response has been adopted by all local authorities in Scotland"

Very disingenuous statement. Social Bite are speaking about contributing funding to a largely Scottish Government funded national initiative, implemented by local authorities in partnership with a number of partners from housing providers and the third sector (not all local authorities have joined this initiative).

History

"That year, Social Bite catalysed a Housing First Pathfinder across 5 cities with £3m funding. In 2019, the Scottish Government connected the Government/CoSLA high level commitment to Housing First to the Social Bite programme that was already underway and in doing so became the main funder of a larger £10m Housing First Pathfinder programme to March 2022 that can reach further.

Toward the end of 2019, Scottish Government approved a progressive programme of work to ensure that people with frontline and lived experience of homelessness, through a new change team, will be at the heart of driving change over the next decade. We are proud to be leading on this work."

https://homelessnetwork.scot/history/

Social Bite are not senior partners within the Housing First initiative, far from it. As far as I understand they aren't really involved in the delivery at all. Information on the various partnerships seems a bit out of date. Here's an annual report from the Rapid Rehousing Transition initiative. I will credit Social Bite with contributing to the funding, alongside Merchant's House Glasgow and the Scottish Government, but not with providing the properties or supporting the people who live in them.

Rapid Rehousing Transition Initiative Plans are part of Scotland’s strategy to end homelessness, developed and delivered in response to local authority
circumstances. Local authorities have been working on the development and implementation of their rapid rehousing transition plan (RRTP) since 2019 and this report provides a summary of the work carried out by local authorities and their partners on progressing their plans in 2020/21. Many well known providers quoted, not Social Bite though.


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/progress-report/2022/05/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/documents/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/rapid-rehousing-transition-plans-annual-report-2020-21/govscot%3Adocument/Rapid%2BRehousing%2BTransition%2BPlans%2BAnnual%2B Report-%2B2020-21.pdf

The founder of Social Bite is a polemic figure. He has been fantastic at engaging the wider public, fund raising and publicity/raising awareness of homelessness, whilst also managing to be subject to investigation by the Scottish Charities regulator, which was upheld (this was around governance).

What is your fixation with Social Bite? I have mentioned others, here's one in Perth https://www.giraffe-trading.co.uk/our-social-aims/

As well as homeless people, those with learning difficulties are given employment. In a few hours in Oxford I came across 3 similar social cafes, none were part of the social bite empire.

Regardless, they are all helping those people who are disadvantaged.

[superfurryhibby]

What is your fixation with Social Bite? I have mentioned others, here's one in Perth https://www.giraffe-trading.co.uk/our-social-aims/

As well as homeless people, those with learning difficulties are given employment. In a few hours in Oxford I came across 3 similar social cafes, none were part of the social bite empire.

Regardless, they are all helping those people who are disadvantaged.

I have a long standing professional interest in social care (including homelessness, addictions and mental health services) and an enduring passion for addressing inequality. I'm hardly fixated on Social Bite, I thought we were having a conversation?

I can tell you anecdotally that they are not universally loved in their sector, neither is Housing First approaches to reducing homelessness.

I totally agree that social enterprise has a significant role to play in supporting people who are disadvantaged.

[Hibrandenburg]

Heard in my Local BackWerk that Labour will be sending high profile observers to look at the German system of providing social housing.

[Ozyhibby]

Heard in my Local BackWerk that Labour will be sending high profile observers to look at the German system of providing social housing.

Commissions a couple of studies by McKinsey or the like, spend a few hundred million quid and by year 5 of this government we’ll have about 10 houses.[emoji849]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/falkirk-council-pauses-repairs-for-three-months-amid-scottish-government-housing-emergency

This happens in Edinburgh as well. Council houses lying empty for months because the council does not have the budget to bring them up to standard.


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[superfurryhibby]

Quality housing can be achieved

Kevin McCloud: ‘The whole house-building market, and model, is broken’ – Article here-https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/kevin-mccloud-the-whole-housebuilding-market-and-model-is-broken-b1186346.html

The Grand Designs host has argued against a fixation on housing numbers, saying that it leads to a neglect of quality in construction. According to McCloud, the house-building market prioritizes profit for shareholders over providing affordable, quality housing. The consequence is the compromising of standards and issues such as the Grenfell tragedy.

McCloud argues that local authorities should have the power to set higher building standards than those set out in the building regulations in order to promote environmentally friendly housing solutions. He points out that quality housing can be achieved by learning from successful social housing projects, which often employ innovative technologies like passive housing and renewable energy sources. Social housing is often at the forefront of implementing new technologies that prioritize residents’ well-being: the government should look to local housing associations for examples of high-quality, sustainable housing rather than foreign models, demonstrating that quality housing can be built effectively in the UK.

It is incredible and tragic that we continue to build housing that will need to be retrofitted at great expense to meet the challenges of Net Zero, climate change, and spiralling future energy costs. It points to a massive market failure both in housebuilding and the mortgage sector, where banks and building societies are prepared to lend money for the purchase of homes and homeowners that will be highly exposed to increases in energy costs. It also points to the failure by successive governments to adequately regulate and protect home purchasers and occupiers. It is possible to build social housing to passivhaus standards, and there is no excuse for private sector housing not to be built to those same standards.

[superfurryhibby]

Back to the question of whether 1.5 million houses are realistic: do you think that it shouldn't be done on the numbers at all?
Well, it's irrelevant.

You have a housing market which has moved from a position in 2009 where it was trying to deliver against government targets to one today, where profits on the average new home have jumped from £6,000 per new dwelling on average to £65,000 per new dwelling on average.

And in that time, by the way, costs have remained static and land values have remained relatively static. For these developers, the focus has shifted from delivering against government targets to delivering profits to shareholders.

Persimmon to March 2022 turned over 4.4 billion pounds and made a 25 per cent profit of £1.1 billion. These are rough generalised figures, but in any other industry, 25 per cent profits would be seen as obscene.

That goes to shareholders. It's just as simple as that. That's what the focus is.

So it doesn't matter what government targets are set, it's irrelevant to that industry.

Does that industry want to deliver against government targets? Does it really want to deliver a surfeit of housing or to deliver against demand? Why would it do that?

Because that creates a basically a situation where you've supplied everything that's demanded of you. In which case, prices start to come down. No one's interested in the industry and prices coming down. They want prices to go up.

It's a simple rule of simple laws of supply and demand. If you create a restriction in the supply, prices go up because things are in short supply, people compete for them.

https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/kevin-mccloud-the-whole-housebuilding-market-and-model-is-broken-b1186346.html

[Ozyhibby]

Quality housing can be achieved

Kevin McCloud: ‘The whole house-building market, and model, is broken’ – Article here-https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/property-news/kevin-mccloud-the-whole-housebuilding-market-and-model-is-broken-b1186346.html

The Grand Designs host has argued against a fixation on housing numbers, saying that it leads to a neglect of quality in construction. According to McCloud, the house-building market prioritizes profit for shareholders over providing affordable, quality housing. The consequence is the compromising of standards and issues such as the Grenfell tragedy.

McCloud argues that local authorities should have the power to set higher building standards than those set out in the building regulations in order to promote environmentally friendly housing solutions. He points out that quality housing can be achieved by learning from successful social housing projects, which often employ innovative technologies like passive housing and renewable energy sources. Social housing is often at the forefront of implementing new technologies that prioritize residents’ well-being: the government should look to local housing associations for examples of high-quality, sustainable housing rather than foreign models, demonstrating that quality housing can be built effectively in the UK.

It is incredible and tragic that we continue to build housing that will need to be retrofitted at great expense to meet the challenges of Net Zero, climate change, and spiralling future energy costs. It points to a massive market failure both in housebuilding and the mortgage sector, where banks and building societies are prepared to lend money for the purchase of homes and homeowners that will be highly exposed to increases in energy costs. It also points to the failure by successive governments to adequately regulate and protect home purchasers and occupiers. It is possible to build social housing to passivhaus standards, and there is no excuse for private sector housing not to be built to those same standards.

I’m 100% behind increasing building standards and enforcing them if it also comes with freeing up land and lifting planning restrictions.
The standard of workmanship in most new builds is horrific.


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[superfurryhibby]

I’m 100% behind increasing building standards and enforcing them if it also comes with freeing up land and lifting planning restrictions.
The standard of workmanship in most new builds is horrific.


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Why should one be contingent on the other?

[Ozyhibby]

Why should one be contingent on the other?

It’s not. I just worded it wrong. Both should happen though.
Although I would argue that the planning system has left us with only 6 big house builders in the UK so they have no need to really compete on quality. Bringing back small volume builders may help with improving standards.


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[superfurryhibby]

It’s not. I just worded it wrong. Both should happen though.
Although I would argue that the planning system has left us with only 6 big house builders in the UK so they have no need to really compete on quality. Bringing back small volume builders may help with improving standards.


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Fair enough, not sure if the "cartel" issue is just down to planning but your point about standards and small volume builders is a good one. From the same article,

"I went to Sweden to look at social housing and then visited some amazing examples in the UK.

And I found this extraordinary thing, up in Lancaster, a wonderful passive house scheme of 40 new homes built by a local developer for a local housing association. And he made profit. He made about 12-15 per cent profit on the thing. He was happy. Housing Association were delighted. Residents were super delighted because they got these super low cost homes. And it was just as the heating crisis was really beginning to bite. They were living in homes with a tenth of the size of bills of people living in conventional homes".


Talking about standards, he says,

"We have a supply chain which has been deskilled over 40 years, and professionals have been effectively emasculated. They've been removed from the accountability and the verification processes within the supply chain. So engineers have been replaced through processes like design and build. Instead, you've got managers in development companies trying to value engineer schemes down in price and a supply chain which is interested in helping them and obviously just making a sale"

[grunt]

Persimmon to March 2022 turned over 4.4 billion pounds and made a 25 per cent profit of £1.1 billion. These are rough generalised figures, but in any other industry, 25 per cent profits would be seen as obscene.
I cannot understand how the Stewart Milne Group went bust.

[Ozyhibby]

Fair enough, not sure if the "cartel" issue is just down to planning but your point about standards and small volume builders is a good one. From the same article,

"I went to Sweden to look at social housing and then visited some amazing examples in the UK.

And I found this extraordinary thing, up in Lancaster, a wonderful passive house scheme of 40 new homes built by a local developer for a local housing association. And he made profit. He made about 12-15 per cent profit on the thing. He was happy. Housing Association were delighted. Residents were super delighted because they got these super low cost homes. And it was just as the heating crisis was really beginning to bite. They were living in homes with a tenth of the size of bills of people living in conventional homes".


Talking about standards, he says,

"We have a supply chain which has been deskilled over 40 years, and professionals have been effectively emasculated. They've been removed from the accountability and the verification processes within the supply chain. So engineers have been replaced through processes like design and build. Instead, you've got managers in development companies trying to value engineer schemes down in price and a supply chain which is interested in helping them and obviously just making a sale"

The small builders who only build between 1 and 5 houses a year just can’t afford the costs involved in planning applications. It means lots of small sites just go undeveloped.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/developer-picks-up-awards-despite-building-728-defective-council-homes


Oops!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241019/7091149944d7e46a445b620f90a34686.jpg
Only 100 objections in a city the size of Glasgow should be automatic approval.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/plans-for-22-storey-building-with-700-flats-beside-river-clyde-given-go-ahead

Another 700 flats for rent in Glasgow.

[Stairway 2 7]

Looks like scot gov going with rent controls again. Hope it works although I've yet to see anywhere in the world where it's done anything but create huge rises

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0eng8qnn7ro.amp

[Ozyhibby]

Looks like scot gov going with rent controls again. Hope it works although I've yet to see anywhere in the world where it's done anything but create huge rises

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0eng8qnn7ro.amp

It’s so dumb when all the evidence is there for them. [emoji35]


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[superfurryhibby]

"After receiving a shocking 36% rent increase notice for his flat, Robert decided to take action. He followed the Rent Adjudicator process, a procedure designed to help tenants contest unreasonable rent hikes when landlords are unwilling to negotiate.
,
Acting within the required 21-day window, he was successful: the increase was capped at 12%. But the story doesn’t end there. His landlady is now challenging this decision in a First-Tier Tribunal, aiming to reinstate her original 36% increase. Robert has turned to Living Rent Member Defence, seeking reassurance and support from our members during this challenging time.
,
Landlords have the ability to raise rent above the current 12% cap, placing the responsibility on tenants to file a complaint with the Rent Officer within 21 days if they want to challenge the increase. If tenants aren't aware of this option or miss the deadline, they’re forced to pay the steep rent hikes set by landlords. This situation makes it clear that landlords cannot be relied upon to act fairly without government oversight.
,
,Rent controls are urgently needed to prevent unlawful rent hikes and to hold landlords accountable with penalties for any attempts to impose them
Together, we are stronger, standing united for fair rents for all tenants"
,
https://www.livingrent.org/join

[Ozyhibby]

"After receiving a shocking 36% rent increase notice for his flat, Robert decided to take action. He followed the Rent Adjudicator process, a procedure designed to help tenants contest unreasonable rent hikes when landlords are unwilling to negotiate.
,
Acting within the required 21-day window, he was successful: the increase was capped at 12%. But the story doesn’t end there. His landlady is now challenging this decision in a First-Tier Tribunal, aiming to reinstate her original 36% increase. Robert has turned to Living Rent Member Defence, seeking reassurance and support from our members during this challenging time.
,
Landlords have the ability to raise rent above the current 12% cap, placing the responsibility on tenants to file a complaint with the Rent Officer within 21 days if they want to challenge the increase. If tenants aren't aware of this option or miss the deadline, they’re forced to pay the steep rent hikes set by landlords. This situation makes it clear that landlords cannot be relied upon to act fairly without government oversight.
,
,Rent controls are urgently needed to prevent unlawful rent hikes and to hold landlords accountable with penalties for any attempts to impose them
Together, we are stronger, standing united for fair rents for all tenants"
,
https://www.livingrent.org/join

Either way, the rent will make its way back to a market clearing price. How many years at 12% will it take?
We are creating a deliberate shortage of housing by refusing to build more and then blaming landlords for price rises. If you want lower rent or lower house prices you need to build more houses. Edinburgh is creating households quicker than we are building.


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[superfurryhibby]

Endorse our response: tourist tax to build more council flats
https://www.livingrent.org/endorse_tourist-tax-for-council-flats


Edinburgh City Council is implementing a "visitor levy", or tourist tax, which has the ability to generate up to £50 million a year.

The unchecked growth of tourism over the past decades has exacerbated the housing crisis in Edinburgh. Developers and landlords have taken full advantage of tourism to hollow-out our homes and communities in the name of soaring profits.

As a result, members in Edinburgh organised together to push for the council to commit money raised from the tourist tax to be spent on council housing. And we won.

The council has to committed to £5 million a year from the visitor levy to borrow a further £150m to build new council and affordable homes.

But we think this does not go far enough.

There are 5,123 families in temporary accommodation and 23,000 people waiting for a permanent council house. New rents in the private sector in the city have increased by 18.4% over the last year, and over 80% over the last decade.

It is us who work in tourism, hospitality, administration and cleansing who work hard to generate profit for the visitor sector, but rarely does it end up in our pockets. Edinburgh is our home and we deserve affordable homes and well funded public services.

Right now, Edinburgh City Council is consulting on the policy to get peoples views on how this money should be spent. We have written a response to this consultation and we need Edinburgh residents to sign our petition to back our call for a tourist tax for council flats before the consultation closes on December 15th.

In order to make our responses as strong as possible we need people to tell us why you think the tourist tax should be spent on social housing. Text or email your reason to Sinead on 07593128079 or [email protected].

You can also submit an organisational or individual response on the council website by using our template here

By signing our petition you are agreeing for us to submit a response on your behalf to Edinburgh City Council's "Vistory Levy" consultation.

Endorse our response!

Increase the nightly tax from 5% to 8%, similar to Amsterdam and Porto.
Significantly increase the spending on housing.
Commit to majority of builds being social housing not mid-market rents.
Commit to money being spent on other essential public infrastructure, for example permanent public toilets and cleansing.


EndorseTouristTax2024

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8dlrlkxmyo

Another example of why the private market rentals need regulation and rent controls. 34% increase due to change in tenancy to single person occupancy.

Allan’s old flat, which is near the city centre, is now being advertised at £1,060 per month.

He added: "You can only really feel at home somewhere if you can afford to live there."

Evicted, Tenants on the Edge follows the stories of four young renters who face being priced out or pushed out of their homes as the law in Scotland changes, rents rise and evictions grow.

You can watch the programme on the iPlayer.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8dlrlkxmyo

Another example of why the private market rentals need regulation and rent controls. 34% increase due to change in tenancy to single person occupancy.

Allan’s old flat, which is near the city centre, is now being advertised at £1,060 per month.

He added: "You can only really feel at home somewhere if you can afford to live there."

Evicted, Tenants on the Edge follows the stories of four young renters who face being priced out or pushed out of their homes as the law in Scotland changes, rents rise and evictions grow.

You can watch the programme on the iPlayer.

Millions of more houses would clip the landlords wings, we have the least spare homes in the oecd so landlords can call the shots.

I like the idea of rent controls but I've yet to see any city where prices haven't spiralled upwards and then slowed when they ended. I'd genuinely like to see a city where it worked and I'd love for it to work here, I'd be all for it.

The easiest and obvious way every normal nation knows to ease prices is building houses, the UK isn't normal though

[superfurryhibby]

Millions of more houses would clip the landlords wings, we have the least spare homes in the oecd so landlords can call the shots.

I like the idea of rent controls but I've yet to see any city where prices haven't spiralled upwards and then slowed when they ended. I'd genuinely like to see a city where it worked and I'd love for it to work here, I'd be all for it.

The easiest and obvious way every normal nation knows to ease prices is building houses, the UK isn't normal though

People need protected from extortion, it's as simple as that. We need social housing but our government isn't going to deliver them. Until then community action and pressure on government, via the likes of Living Rent.

Housing is a human right and so is being part of your community. People on average wages are being squeezed out and it's shameful.

[The Tubs]

Would zoning where Airbnb is permitted not help increase supply? It might cause less distortion.

[Andy Bee]

Would zoning where Airbnb is permitted not help increase supply? It might cause less distortion.

There's a lot of new rules for AirBNB which should see them not being as good an option now.

[Ozyhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/annaclarke.bsky.social/post/3lcfeb5v4ac24

Good thread on the stupidity behind Scotlands new rent controls.


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[superfurryhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/annaclarke.bsky.social/post/3lcfeb5v4ac24

Good thread on the stupidity behind Scotlands new rent controls.


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Where does it discuss the "stupidity" of rent moderation measures? The quoted article presents different views, from interest groups across the sector. The statement from Anna Clarke merely says

"So it seems the Scottish Government is pushing ahead with rent controls.
With increases allowed up to CPI+1% (capped at 6%) the first thing they'll achieve will be steady increases in rents - as landlords see the annual increase as a "use it or loose it" opportunity. But it won't end there....🧵"

That's hardly an insightful deconstruction of the measures just voted on.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/housing-bill-with-6-rent-cap-passes-first-stage-in-scottish-parliament-89606

For anyone interested, here's the main thrust of the article Anna Clarke quoted in her post.

"Paul McLennan, the Scottish housing minister, said: “The Housing (Scotland) Bill will play an important role in helping to tackle poverty by keeping rents affordable and ensuring people can stay in their homes.

“Ensuring everyone has the right to a safe and stable home is essential to the Scottish government’s priority of ending child poverty, and the bill will play a role in reaching that goal.

“Scotland has led the way in protecting tenants and providing rights for homeless people. The Housing (Scotland) Bill aims to create a rental system that improves the rights of tenants while maintaining investment, and provides greater support for people threatened with homelessness.

“I am pleased parliament has supported the general principles of the legislation, especially on our proposals for a system of rent controls that keep costs lower for tenants.”

Living Rent, Scotland’s tenants’ union, said: “We need to celebrate the vote bringing rent controls one step closer. But landlords are fighting hard and it’s clear there is a lot of work to be done.”

David Melhuish, director of the Scottish Property Federation, which represents developers, said: “We believe the proposals for consulting on the bill’s framework powers for exemptions from the rent control regulations must be addressed to encourage and facilitate new housing investment for Scotland, given that at least £500m of investment could already have been lost as the policy of rent controls has been formed.

“Of particular concern remains the application of rent controls on empty properties in between tenancies. This part of the bill must be reconsidered if we are to restore investor confidence and begin to address the housing shortfall.”

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/housing-bill-with-6-rent-cap-passes-first-stage-in-scottish-parliament-89606

For anyone interested, here's the main thrust of the article Anna Clarke quoted in her post.

"Paul McLennan, the Scottish housing minister, said: “The Housing (Scotland) Bill will play an important role in helping to tackle poverty by keeping rents affordable and ensuring people can stay in their homes.

“Ensuring everyone has the right to a safe and stable home is essential to the Scottish government’s priority of ending child poverty, and the bill will play a role in reaching that goal.

“Scotland has led the way in protecting tenants and providing rights for homeless people. The Housing (Scotland) Bill aims to create a rental system that improves the rights of tenants while maintaining investment, and provides greater support for people threatened with homelessness.

“I am pleased parliament has supported the general principles of the legislation, especially on our proposals for a system of rent controls that keep costs lower for tenants.”

Living Rent, Scotland’s tenants’ union, said: “We need to celebrate the vote bringing rent controls one step closer. But landlords are fighting hard and it’s clear there is a lot of work to be done.”

David Melhuish, director of the Scottish Property Federation, which represents developers, said: “We believe the proposals for consulting on the bill’s framework powers for exemptions from the rent control regulations must be addressed to encourage and facilitate new housing investment for Scotland, given that at least £500m of investment could already have been lost as the policy of rent controls has been formed.

“Of particular concern remains the application of rent controls on empty properties in between tenancies. This part of the bill must be reconsidered if we are to restore investor confidence and begin to address the housing shortfall.”

Price controls inevitably lead to shortages. This is a sure fire way to kill investment in property in Scotland.


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[superfurryhibby]

Price controls inevitably lead to shortages. This is a sure fire way to kill investment in property in Scotland.


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You just ignore any attempt at debate or discussion and resort to bland, untrue, blanket statements. At least post something that has some substance behind it.

And no, studies from Buenos Aires, Melbourne or wherever do not apply to Scotland. Neither do the utterances of right wing think tanks or far right minded individuals deeply immersed in their own neo-liberal agendas.

[Ozyhibby]

You just ignore any attempt at debate or discussion and resort to bland, untrue, blanket statements. At least post something that has some substance behind it.

And no, studies from Buenos Aires, Melbourne or wherever do not apply to Scotland. Neither do the utterances of right wing think tanks or far right minded individuals deeply immersed in their own neo-liberal agendas.

I just haven’t seen anywhere in the world where controlling the price of anything did not lead to a drop in investment in producing that thing leading to shortages?
Maybe Scotland is different from the rest of the world in that respect? If so, we should def apply it in other areas as well. We should for sure make new iPhones only £500. And milk should only really be 10p a pint. Who in their right mind is not in favour of that? Why would this not work? What are they all doing down at Holyrood?


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[superfurryhibby]

I just haven’t seen anywhere in the world where controlling the price of anything did not lead to a drop in investment in producing that thing leading to shortages?
Maybe Scotland is different from the rest of the world in that respect? If so, we should def apply it in other areas as well. We should for sure make new iPhones only £500. And milk should only really be 10p a pint. Who in their right mind is not in favour of that? Why would this not work? What are they all doing down at Holyrood?


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Rent controls aren't determining investment in the production of new housing in Scotland. As for the rest, typical hysterical ramblings :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

Rent controls aren't determining investment in the production of new housing in Scotland. As for the rest, typical hysterical ramblings :rolleyes:

Aw, I thought you were going to show me a successful example?[emoji2369]
And your first sentance is completely wrong.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24345461.snp-housing-bill-blamed-collapse-build-rent-plan/


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[Andy Bee]

Surely investment is determined by the returns achievable? An example would be a £300k property bought as a buy to let which costs £322600 when including landlord stamp duty but not including legals. I'd estimate the £300k would get you a new 3 bedroom home in todays market? I'd also estimate rent on that property to be around £1200 a month? That property returns a net yield of 4% when you include estimated yearly costs of £1500 which I think is fair. So your money is better off elsewhere. When you take the emotion out of the rental business the figures state it's becoming a mediocre investment at best.

The simple fact is that we need a lot of new social housing.

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely investment is determined by the returns achievable? An example would be a £300k property bought as a buy to let which costs £322600 when including landlord stamp duty but not including legals. I'd estimate the £300k would get you a new 3 bedroom home in todays market? I'd also estimate rent on that property to be around £1200 a month? That property returns a net yield of 4% when you include estimated yearly costs of £1500 which I think is fair. So your money is better off elsewhere. When you take the emotion out of the rental business the figures state it's becoming a mediocre investment at best.

The simple fact is that we need a lot of new social housing.

Even less, if you have to factor in a mortgage.

But I'd say it's more complicated than just the rental income. A lot of people invest in property for the capital growth, and the annual income is less of a driver. In those situations, depending on where the property is, the "return" can be much better (and more secure) than elsewhere.

[Andy Bee]

Even less, if you have to factor in a mortgage.

But I'd say it's more complicated than just the rental income. A lot of people invest in property for the capital growth, and the annual income is less of a driver. In those situations, depending on where the property is, the "return" can be much better (and more secure) than elsewhere.

Yup I agree, just trying to change the narrative from the morality of buy to let to simple hard facts over the actual viability of the business. Interestingly the example above would cost £1520 a month on a £300k mortgage over 30 years, that's obviously also putting down the stamp duty value as a deposit. I get a lot of landlords use interest only but that is one big gamble using the example above in todays climate. Add to that rent controls and it's becoming non investable in a big area of the sector. No idea if that's a good thing or not, do we need private lets in the housing market? I'd argue we do at the moment.

[Ozyhibby]

Yup I agree, just trying to change the narrative from the morality of buy to let to simple hard facts over the actual viability of the business. Interestingly the example above would cost £1520 a month on a £300k mortgage over 30 years, that's obviously also putting down the stamp duty value as a deposit. I get a lot of landlords use interest only but that is one big gamble using the example above in todays climate. Add to that rent controls and it's becoming non investable in a big area of the sector. No idea if that's a good thing or not, do we need private lets in the housing market? I'd argue we do at the moment.

And if your a higher rate tax payer then your going to be paying about 20% tax on that £1520 a month. Fun.
I’m not sure of there a figure available but I would say there are a lot less people investing in housing than say 15-20 years ago. And it’s showing in the rents.


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[Smartie]

I think we've just got to accept that we cannot both have a booming housing market where people get very rich with the commoditisation of shelter as well as having a property ladder that people who don't come from the property owning class can actually remotely aspire to ever get onto.

[superfurryhibby]

Aw, I thought you were going to show me a successful example?[emoji2369]
And your first sentance is completely wrong.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24345461.snp-housing-bill-blamed-collapse-build-rent-plan/


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More unsustainable property commoditisation which contributes to the on-going concerns around gentrification in Glasgow.

"While not classed as affordable housing, the proposal approved by councillors would have been the first build-to-rent development in that part of the city.
That means all of the studio apartments, and one and two-bedroom flats, would have been built specifically for tenants rather than for selling"

I'll explain the key principles of the bill and outline why greed /profiteering and protecting tenants is being targeted by the Scottish Government, because we all know the market can't be trusted to regulate itself in a reasonable manner.

[Andy Bee]

I think we've just got to accept that we cannot both have a booming housing market where people get very rich with the commoditisation of shelter as well as having a property ladder that people who don't come from the property owning class can actually remotely aspire to ever get onto.

We need social housing and loads of it, new, well built, carbon neutral social housing powered by publicly owned renewable energy. I wonder how we go about getting that?

[Ozyhibby]

We need social housing and loads of it, new, well built, carbon neutral social housing powered by publicly owned renewable energy. I wonder how we go about getting that?

The state can borrow more cheaply than the private sector. It can be funded by the rents obtained. Building housing should not be a hard decision at all. There is a supply shortage.
I suspect that the reason it’s not happening is something to do with rules around what local govt is allowed to borrow for.
Weird things is, most people agree we need it (so long as it’s not near them[emoji849]) but it never happens.


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[Colr]

The state can borrow more cheaply than the private sector. It can be funded by the rents obtained. Building housing should not be a hard decision at all. There is a supply shortage.
I suspect that the reason it’s not happening is something to do with rules around what local govt is allowed to borrow for.
Weird things is, most people agree we need it (so long as it’s not near them[emoji849]) but it never happens.


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There are some interesting stats estimating the savings to the public purse from taking families out of temporary accommodation and into secure affordable housing. The amounts spend on temporary accommodation in London are eye watering and going into the hands mostly of dodgy private landlords and private equity as well as hotels, hostels but the other savings to the health sector, education, and so on are pretty compelling. The spend to save argument is really strong.

Regretably, the housing association desperately need recapitalised as they are in real mess. Councils could take the homes but need to build capacity.

[Ozyhibby]

There are some interesting stats estimating the savings to the public purse from taking families out of temporary accommodation and into secure affordable housing. The amounts spend on temporary accommodation in London are eye watering and going into the hands mostly of dodgy private landlords and private equity as well as hotels, hostels but the other savings to the health sector, education, and so on are pretty compelling. The spend to save argument is really strong.

Regretably, the housing association desperately need recapitalised as they are in real mess. Councils could take the homes but need to build capacity.

I know of a council house in West Pilton empty for over a year because council doesn’t have money to renovate it. Rent is being lost because the estate is not being run properly. It’s a cracking 4 bed house as well in a nice wee cauldiesack.


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[Moulin Yarns]

The state can borrow more cheaply than the private sector. It can be funded by the rents obtained. Building housing should not be a hard decision at all. There is a supply shortage.
I suspect that the reason it’s not happening is something to do with rules around what local govt is allowed to borrow for.
Weird things is, most people agree we need it (so long as it’s not near them[emoji849]) but it never happens.


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Not forgetting the limits imposed....

Under the Fiscal Framework Agreement, the Scottish Government can borrow*up to £3 billion cumulatively for capital expenditure, with an annual limit of £450 million in 2023-24.*

[Ozyhibby]

Not forgetting the limits imposed....

Under the Fiscal Framework Agreement, the Scottish Government can borrow*up to £3 billion cumulatively for capital expenditure, with an annual limit of £450 million in 2023-24.*

The only limit should be if there is enough rent can be charged to cover the payments. If so then it’s a no brainer.


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[hibee]

I know of a council house in West Pilton empty for over a year because council doesn’t have money to renovate it. Rent is being lost because the estate is not being run properly. It’s a cracking 4 bed house as well in a nice wee cauldiesack.


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I read that East Lothian had around 500 long term empty council houses last year, the majority of those have been empty for longer than a year so I guess most other councils are in a similar position.

[w pilton hibby]

I know of a council house in West Pilton empty for over a year because council doesn’t have money to renovate it. Rent is being lost because the estate is not being run properly. It’s a cracking 4 bed house as well in a nice wee cauldiesack.


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There are 2000+ empty council houses in Edinburgh.

It must be quicker and cheaper to get these up to a lettable standard than setting the wheels in motion for new developments.

[Ozyhibby]

There are 2000+ empty council houses in Edinburgh.

It must be quicker and cheaper to get these up to a lettable standard than setting the wheels in motion for new developments.

They are not very good landlords.
This is likely down to the way they see the money. It will be seen as a cost rather than an investment.
They would be better selling them to the private sector. At least it would provide a home for someone.


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[CropleyWasGod]

They are not very good landlords.
This is likely down to the way they see the money. It will be seen as a cost rather than an investment.
They would be better selling them to the private sector. At least it would provide a home for someone.


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... with the proviso that the new owner must provide accommodation for council tenants.

[Andy Bee]

They are not very good landlords.
This is likely down to the way they see the money. It will be seen as a cost rather than an investment.
They would be better selling them to the private sector. At least it would provide a home for someone.


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Just goes to show the difference in councils, I know West Lothian council were actively bidding on ex council houses up to the home report value. I know of one that was bought privately 7 years before at a heavily discounted rate and that was after heating, kitchen and a new bathroom was fitted for the council to come back in and bid the home report value. Absolutely crazy.

[Ozyhibby]

... with the proviso that the new owner must provide accommodation for council tenants.

Means the selling price will be lower but still, it’s better than them sitting empty.


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[Hibs4185]

I know a house builder who can build houses cheaper than a local authority.

So much so, the local authority are now giving him land to deliver their quota of new housing.

Like most public sector projects, the costs involved are astronomical compared to the private sector.

Just a point from a post above….many build to rent schemes have been cancelled/mothballed due to rent controls.

[Ozyhibby]

I know a house builder who can build houses cheaper than a local authority.

So much so, the local authority are now giving him land to deliver their quota of new housing.

Like most public sector projects, the costs involved are astronomical compared to the private sector.

Just a point from a post above….many build to rent schemes have been cancelled/mothballed due to rent controls.

I could build cheaper than a local authority as well. Surely most contractors could?


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[Ozyhibby]

Good news for those who think landlords are the problem. Stamp duty in Scotland for landlords has gone up to 11%. That should discourage plenty from entering the market.
Rents will rise though.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Good news for those who think landlords are the problem. Stamp duty in Scotland for landlords has gone up to 11%. That should discourage plenty from entering the market.
Rents will rise though.


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i think they are part of the problem, but in a fairly subtle way - IMO, the problem with small-time landlords is that they're something of a political bulwark for the portfolio holding types. It's also just a crap system that entirely relies on the government genuinely supporting and defending the interests of tenants, which no government will be allowed to do if it wants to keep people with money on-side.

[Ozyhibby]

i think they are part of the problem, but in a fairly subtle way - IMO, the problem with small-time landlords is that they're something of a political bulwark for the portfolio holding types. It's also just a crap system that entirely relies on the government genuinely supporting and defending the interests of tenants, which no government will be allowed to do if it wants to keep people with money on-side.

Portfolio landlords buying 6 or more properties together won’t pay it.[emoji106]


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Portfolio landlords buying 6 or more properties together won’t pay it.[emoji106]


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I agree that it's not a solution...i think there needs to be wider discussion about how we do housing in general, because our current system relies on so many people not being greedy at so many levels that it can't work - the best it can hope for is occassional patch ups that kick the can down the road.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd read the UK would need 6 million homes to have the same amount of spare homes as the average oecd nation and normal countries like Germany. Scotland has less spare homes than England, but still, 500k council houses built in Scotland would blunt all power from the private landlord and decimate rent prices.

Labour should borrow to make it happen, they won't, they probably won't hit the pathetic 1.5 mil target

[Ozyhibby]

I'd read the UK would need 6 million homes to have the same amount of spare homes as the average oecd nation and normal countries like Germany. Scotland has less spare homes than England, but still, 500k council houses built in Scotland would blunt all power from the private landlord and decimate rent prices.

Labour should borrow to make it happen, they won't, they probably won't hit the pathetic 1.5 mil target

And nothing will boost Reform more than lack of access to housing.


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[Stairway 2 7]

And nothing will boost Reform more than lack of access to housing.


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Yes it's also why we need immigration which also boosts reform. 46% of 16 to 34 year old males now live with their parents, due to lack of houses and high rents. That explains our plummeting birth rate. With an aging population if we want pensions to be paid in 30 years we need young people. You either get that by having kids or importing people.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes it's also why we need immigration which also boosts reform. 46% of 16 to 34 year old males now live with their parents, due to lack of houses and high rents. That explains our plummeting birth rate. With an aging population if we want pensions to be paid in 30 years we need young people. You either get that by having kids or importing people.

... or by saving up for them.

[Stairway 2 7]

... or by saving up for them.

It's obviously not just about pensions but the state pension bill alone is estimated to be £105 billion per year more by 2050. Who's paying that if we have less workers than now going forward

Its not just about pensions though, our population is aging massively and our birthrate is collapsing. A population top heavy is a recipe for utter disaster. Who pays the majority of the taxes and does all the labour.

I'm all for mass immigration but I'd like a higher birth rate too, more houses and cheaper childcare needed for that

[danhibees1875]

Good news for those who think landlords are the problem. Stamp duty in Scotland for landlords has gone up to 11%. That should discourage plenty from entering the market.
Rents will rise though.


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Ouch. The 10% portion of LBTT last time I moved was quite a pain. Not sure where I stand on the landlord debate tbh - they shouldn't have an easy ride, but it should be a viable investment option.

[Ozyhibby]

Ouch. The 10% portion of LBTT last time I moved was quite a pain. Not sure where I stand on the landlord debate tbh - they shouldn't have an easy ride, but it should be a viable investment option.

It’s only 3% if you only have one house. An extra 8% if you have rental properties.


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[Smartie]

It's obviously not just about pensions but the state pension bill alone is estimated to be £105 billion per year more by 2050. Who's paying that if we have less workers than now going forward

Its not just about pensions though, our population is aging massively and our birthrate is collapsing. A population top heavy is a recipe for utter disaster. Who pays the majority of the taxes and does all the labour.

I'm all for mass immigration but I'd like a higher birth rate too, more houses and cheaper childcare needed for that

I really wish our politician would front up to this because if they did, we might end up with solutions to match the problems.

I’ve actually lost all hope in the UK and in particular Scotland. My life’s work is now to create mindset and opportunity for my kids so they can leave. There’s going to be nothing here for them.

[Ozyhibby]

I really wish our politician would front up to this because if they did, we might end up with solutions to match the problems.

I’ve actually lost all hope in the UK and in particular Scotland. My life’s work is now to create mindset and opportunity for my kids so they can leave. There’s going to be nothing here for them.

Renting in Scotland will become the most expensive in the UK over the next couple of years. The amount of landlords will plummet. The rent controls and stamp duty will see to that.
The last lot of rent controls raised rents faster than they had for years. The new lot will do the same.
As landlords die or retire and sell up, they will not be replaced by new entrants as 11% tax is too high.
There will be more tenants chasing fewer properties.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyv3ed33mqeo

This has to be a good thing, right?

[speedy_gonzales]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyv3ed33mqeo

This has to be a good thing, right?

If they do it right, definitely.
That part of Edinburgh, bordering the A8 corridor is getting hella busy with traffic. A significant %age is just traffic passing through but adding large housing estates like this and the ongoing West Craigs will only add to the issue, regardless of the trams, trains & buses on their doorstep.
Re the actual housing, if they stay away from the overpriced Cala boxes they built over at Cammo, it would be a start. £1mil for a 5 bed timber frame house, that ain't the answer to a housing crisis. Even the Miller & Wimpey 4 beds at West Craig's are going for £600+K.
I'm clearly no expert on the matter, but we need quality social housing. Why can't Edinburgh Council/SG not leverage the money to build their own housing rather than rely on the 10% kickback of cheap housing pushed to the periphery of any new build estate, as per the planning conditions.
Quality social housing would pay itself off within a generation, but it needs brave/bold politicians to make it happen.

[Moulin Yarns]

If they do it right, definitely.
That part of Edinburgh, bordering the A8 corridor is getting hella busy with traffic. A significant %age is just traffic passing through but adding large housing estates like this and the ongoing West Craigs will only add to the issue, regardless of the trams, trains & buses on their doorstep.
Re the actual housing, if they stay away from the overpriced Cala boxes they built over at Cammo, it would be a start. £1mil for a 5 bed timber frame house, that ain't the answer to a housing crisis. Even the Miller & Wimpey 4 beds at West Craig's are going for £600+K.
I'm clearly no expert on the matter, but we need quality social housing. Why can't Edinburgh Council/SG not leverage the money to build their own housing rather than rely on the 10% kickback of cheap housing pushed to the periphery of any new build estate, as per the planning conditions.
Quality social housing would pay itself off within a generation, but it needs brave/bold politicians to make it happen.

The article

The development proposed by Crosswind Developments would include a mixture of one, two and three-bedroom homes, as well as office space, shops, a school, active travel routes and a green urban park.

Developers hope to create a "car-lite" neighbourhood with about 9km (five miles) of designated walking and cycling routes to "reflect the increased opportunities for those who live and work here".

[speedy_gonzales]

The article

The development proposed by Crosswind Developments would include a mixture of one, two and three-bedroom homes, as well as office space, shops, a school, active travel routes and a green urban park.

Developers hope to create a "car-lite" neighbourhood with about 9km (five miles) of designated walking and cycling routes to "reflect the increased opportunities for those who live and work here".

Yeah, I'm fairly familiar with the pitch. West Craig's was pretty much the same. There are flatted developments but most properties are 4/5 bed with ample parking for cars (which I have zero issue with). That is not car lite and I haven't noticed an upturn in passenger numbers at Edinburgh Gateway tram or train stop.
I've seen some vocal opposition to this development, if the council do approve it they really need to ensure the units are more 1 or 2 bed than not.