Housing

[wookie70]

I am mortgage free and my next house is likely to be similar or slightly less in value. I want a crash and this time I want mortgage holders bailed put. Lower housing costs are a plus as far as I can see

[Ozyhibby]

I am mortgage free and my next house is likely to be similar or slightly less in value. I want a crash and this time I want mortgage holders bailed put. Lower housing costs are a plus as far as I can see

Mortgage holders won’t be bailed out. The banks might be but not ordinary people.


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[McD]

I am mortgage free and my next house is likely to be similar or slightly less in value. I want a crash and this time I want mortgage holders bailed put. Lower housing costs are a plus as far as I can see


Mortgage holders won’t be bailed out. The banks might be but not ordinary people.


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Lower housing costs are a plus if you’re buying, but could see plenty people crushed under negative equity, your want will see thousands put into misery, and possibly lose their home.

as Ozy says, mortgage holders won’t be bailed out at all

[wookie70]

Lower housing costs are a plus if you’re buying, but could see plenty people crushed under negative equity, your want will see thousands put into misery, and possibly lose their home.

as Ozy says, mortgage holders won’t be bailed out at all

In the long run low house prices are good. I actually deleted another paragraph about negative equity to replace it with a more simple version. I don't want anyone normal one property householder harmed but I am talking big picture.

I just can't see how normal people can continue to live the way house prices are. There needs to be a reset somehow and a crash could make home ownership a better prospect for the younger generation. An in a fairly short time it could mean workers quality of life greatly improves.
House prices have risen so sharply there can't be that many would be crushed under negative equity given the criteria for mortgages since 2008. The vast majority will have made a deposit and seen there house go up in value. We are miles away from the 130% mortgages and no checks on ability to pay the last time round. That isn't to ignore there would be issues but I guess far more would benefit compared to those who would suffer and it would be a cheaper fix to sort out negative equity than it would trying to fix the cost of housing for working people.

It may also mean house building is less profitable and the state can start to play a far bigger part in housing citizens.

[Ozyhibby]

In the long run low house prices are good. I actually deleted another paragraph about negative equity to replace it with a more simple version. I don't want anyone normal one property householder harmed but I am talking big picture.

I just can't see how normal people can continue to live the way house prices are. There needs to be a reset somehow and a crash could make home ownership a better prospect for the younger generation. An in a fairly short time it could mean workers quality of life greatly improves.
House prices have risen so sharply there can't be that many would be crushed under negative equity given the criteria for mortgages since 2008. The vast majority will have made a deposit and seen there house go up in value. We are miles away from the 130% mortgages and no checks on ability to pay the last time round. That isn't to ignore there would be issues but I guess far more would benefit compared to those who would suffer and it would be a cheaper fix to sort out negative equity than it would trying to fix the cost of housing for working people.

It may also mean house building is less profitable and the state can start to play a far bigger part in housing citizens.

None of that solves the problem of there not being enough houses. There needs to be more building of houses and no major party is serious about that.


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[Ozyhibby]

Just about every news outlet has a story about the mortgage crunch heading our way.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230618/601e1ad1fbc8716d3ef11d27534d60d8.jpg
Given the areas of the country most affected, then there is at least a chance the govt does something about it.


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[archie]

In the long run low house prices are good. I actually deleted another paragraph about negative equity to replace it with a more simple version. I don't want anyone normal one property householder harmed but I am talking big picture.

I just can't see how normal people can continue to live the way house prices are. There needs to be a reset somehow and a crash could make home ownership a better prospect for the younger generation. An in a fairly short time it could mean workers quality of life greatly improves.
House prices have risen so sharply there can't be that many would be crushed under negative equity given the criteria for mortgages since 2008. The vast majority will have made a deposit and seen there house go up in value. We are miles away from the 130% mortgages and no checks on ability to pay the last time round. That isn't to ignore there would be issues but I guess far more would benefit compared to those who would suffer and it would be a cheaper fix to sort out negative equity than it would trying to fix the cost of housing for working people.

It may also mean house building is less profitable and the state can start to play a far bigger part in housing citizens.
Why does it have to be a crash? A slowing down, yes, but a crash would create great instability and pain for many people.

[archie]

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1668273408335855617?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Housing market in for further shocks. Everything that happened under Truss has now happened again under Sunak, just took a bit longer.


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We need to have a discussion about long term fixed rate mortgages like they do in other countries. This would take mortgages out of the equation when rates change. People have got very used to historical low interest rates, but as we know variable rates can rise too. Much better to have certainty over the term.

[wookie70]

Why does it have to be a crash? A slowing down, yes, but a crash would create great instability and pain for many people.

Because the prices are already ridiculously high compared to wages. Much like inflation slowing the rise isn't enough, the balance between wages and house prices needs restored back to a reasonable level.

[archie]

Because the prices are already ridiculously high compared to wages. Much like inflation slowing the rise isn't enough, the balance between wages and house prices needs restored back to a reasonable level.

But the collateral damage for individuals would be huge.

[wookie70]

None of that solves the problem of there not being enough houses. There needs to be more building of houses and no major party is serious about that.


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The last sentence is where I addressed this. The Council can start Building houses again much like it did in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Millers and Cala etc building houses that are wildly beyond the vast majority of workers doesn't solve anything and they build when maximum profit is on offer. The public good doesn't factor into their thinking, the opposite probably.

None of the big political parties are serious about solving anything. Inflation, poverty, starvation, climate change, sewerage issues, water shortages, insulating homes, etc, etc etc. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have ideas particularly when we can look back to a time when the same nation did have the vast majority of things you would want in a society

[Ozyhibby]

The last sentence is where I addressed this. The Council can start Building houses again much like it did in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Millers and Cala etc building houses that are wildly beyond the vast majority of workers doesn't solve anything and they build when maximum profit is on offer. The public good doesn't factor into their thinking, the opposite probably.

None of the big political parties are serious about solving anything. Inflation, poverty, starvation, climate change, sewerage issues, water shortages, insulating homes, etc, etc etc. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have ideas particularly when we can look back to a time when the same nation did have the vast majority of things you would want in a society

I’m not sure councils have the borrowing power or the compulsory purchase powers they need to start building houses in the numbers we need.


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[wookie70]

I’m not sure councils have the borrowing power or the compulsory purchase powers they need to start building houses in the numbers we need.


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Then give them it. The problems are all very clear and lots of them have pretty easy solutions or at least measures that would help that could easily be brought into play. The big issue isn't the problems it is that those in power are only concerned about saying and doing the right thing to stay in power and couldn't care less about solving problems. Someone in power in the UK has the levers to start a massive council house building programme, start acquiring the land that would need by using CPOs etc and start to assemble the workforce required to do so. While they are at it they can design these houses around schooling, health and care and having everything needed within a short walk or accessible through good public transport. It really isn't that difficult. I can't really see why anyone would be against mass council house building and it would at least start to ease the pressure in pretty short order. It isn't a vote winner though, bizarrely, or more likely it doesn't suit those doing the lobbying with the heaviest cheque books who fund massive Facebook campaigns etc.

Someone, at some point needs to say the UK is completely broken. We need to draw a line, get a fresh piece of paper and start building a society that works for the vast majority. No amount of tinkering at the edges, as the main parties promote, will solve anything as it is all connected to underinvestment, selling assets for pocket change and filtering public money to a tiny part of society.

[Ozyhibby]

Then give them it. The problems are all very clear and lots of them have pretty easy solutions or at least measures that would help that could easily be brought into play. The big issue isn't the problems it is that those in power are only concerned about saying and doing the right thing to stay in power and couldn't care less about solving problems. Someone in power in the UK has the levers to start a massive council house building programme, start acquiring the land that would need by using CPOs etc and start to assemble the workforce required to do so. While they are at it they can design these houses around schooling, health and care and having everything needed within a short walk or accessible through good public transport. It really isn't that difficult. I can't really see why anyone would be against mass council house building and it would at least start to ease the pressure in pretty short order. It isn't a vote winner though, bizarrely, or more likely it doesn't suit those doing the lobbying with the heaviest cheque books who fund massive Facebook campaigns etc.

Someone, at some point needs to say the UK is completely broken. We need to draw a line, get a fresh piece of paper and start building a society that works for the vast majority. No amount of tinkering at the edges, as the main parties promote, will solve anything as it is all connected to underinvestment, selling assets for pocket change and filtering public money to a tiny part of society.

I think donations to political parties from house builders might be a factor.


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[DH1875]

If you were buying a house today would it be better to do it at 5% instead of 8% thats coming or wait 6 months for the supposedly crash thats coming?

[archie]

Then give them it. The problems are all very clear and lots of them have pretty easy solutions or at least measures that would help that could easily be brought into play. The big issue isn't the problems it is that those in power are only concerned about saying and doing the right thing to stay in power and couldn't care less about solving problems. Someone in power in the UK has the levers to start a massive council house building programme, start acquiring the land that would need by using CPOs etc and start to assemble the workforce required to do so. While they are at it they can design these houses around schooling, health and care and having everything needed within a short walk or accessible through good public transport. It really isn't that difficult. I can't really see why anyone would be against mass council house building and it would at least start to ease the pressure in pretty short order. It isn't a vote winner though, bizarrely, or more likely it doesn't suit those doing the lobbying with the heaviest cheque books who fund massive Facebook campaigns etc.

Someone, at some point needs to say the UK is completely broken. We need to draw a line, get a fresh piece of paper and start building a society that works for the vast majority. No amount of tinkering at the edges, as the main parties promote, will solve anything as it is all connected to underinvestment, selling assets for pocket change and filtering public money to a tiny part of society.

The problem with your model is that many people aspire to property ownership. Should that also be a policy consideration? I'm mixed about that, but it is a factor that politicians have to consider.

As for the 'Britain is totally broken' rhetoric, I get why politicos use it, but it isn't reflected in everyone's experience. I think the 'year zero' approach is not as attractive as some would paint. Not least because it implies a lot of pain for individuals.

I completely agree with you about increased council housing and I would add in short term measures (such as repurposing offices) to provide student type accommodation for young people leaving home or coming to the country to work. I think it possible to do that without the wrecking ball.

[Ozyhibby]

If you were buying a house today would it be better to do it at 5% instead of 8% thats coming or wait 6 months for the supposedly crash thats coming?

I personally would never bet money on how the market will behave which is what that decision would be. I would buy if I saw a house I liked that I could afford and fix the rate. If market collapses then it could look a bad decision but if it doesn’t then you miss out on house you like.


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[Kato]

Why does it have to be a crash? A slowing down, yes, but a crash would create great instability and pain for many people.It has to be a crash so hedge funders can make money. Boom bust, an engineered pattern. Why do you think Truss and Kwartang were presented as competent?

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[archie]

It has to be a crash so hedge funders can make money. Boom bust, an engineered pattern. Why do you think Truss and Kwartang were presented as competent?

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The hedge fund types are not the only people in the equation here. Do you seriously belive that the Tories would turn their back on homeowners? Who presented Truss and Kwarteng as competent - certainly not Sunak.

[Kato]

The hedge fund types are not the only people in the equation here. Do you seriously belive that the Tories would turn their back on homeowners? Who presented Truss and Kwarteng as competent - certainly not Sunak.

The press presented Truss as competent, the Tory Party presented her as their leader. Don't you remember?

Gove was on the telly this morning assiduously avoiding the question as whether the govt will help home owners.

What help do you think they will make available?

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[Ozyhibby]

The hedge fund types are not the only people in the equation here. Do you seriously belive that the Tories would turn their back on homeowners? Who presented Truss and Kwarteng as competent - certainly not Sunak.

I think it’s possible they turn their back on mortgage holders. Only 30% of householders have a mortgage these days. That’s a lot lower than previously.


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[Ozyhibby]

The press presented Truss as competent, the Tory Party presented her as their leader. Don't you remember?

Gove was on the telly this morning assiduously avoiding the question as whether the govt will help home owners.

What help do you think they will make available?

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They can’t really help directly. That would be horrendously unfair on non mortgage holders. They might take back control of interest rates and devalue the pound though.


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[archie]

I think it’s possible they turn their back on mortgage holders. Only 30% of householders have a mortgage these days. That’s a lot lower than previously.


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In the run up to an election the Tories will turn their back on home owners with a mortgage - really? Also, peoplecwhobown without a mortgage still have an interest in house prices. Many envisage using the value of their house to buy care when they need it.

[Ozyhibby]

In the run up to an election the Tories will turn their back on home owners with a mortgage - really? Also, peoplecwhobown without a mortgage still have an interest in house prices. Many envisage using the value of their house to buy care when they need it.

The only way I can see them helping is by cutting interest rates, taking away BofE independence and devaluing the currency. There is no other way to help? I just can’t see them doing that but I wouldn’t rule it out either.


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[archie]

The only way I can see them helping is by cutting interest rates, taking away BofE independence and devaluing the currency. There is no other way to help? I just can’t see them doing that but I wouldn’t rule it out either.


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There's no way they would go for BoE independence before an election. Also, interest rate rises are to control inflation. That's a worldwide phenomenon. Rates will come down. The longer term issue is how we set rates for mortgages.

[Ozyhibby]

There's no way they would go for BoE independence before an election. Also, interest rate rises are to control inflation. That's a worldwide phenomenon. Rates will come down. The longer term issue is how we set rates for mortgages.

Agree, they won’t do it. I think there is no help coming for mortgage holders.


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[Andy Bee]

Tax relief on mortgage interest would be a start, they wont do that either though. Mortgage holders are in for a whole world of pain shortly if not already along with renters in the short term. Property prices will fall and there'll be a new wave of buy to let landlords buying them up at cheaper prices.

I didn't actually realise how much property prices had gone up in the last 2 - 3 years, properties in my area which were selling at around the £175k mark are now well over £220k at the moment, no idea if they're selling though.

[wookie70]

I think donations to political parties from house builders might be a factor.


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Lobbying(that is the kind way to say bribing or buying off) is democracy in the UK. Housebuilder have ridiculous profits for what they actually do and I would strongly argue that they cost far more again as most estates appear to screw up local infrastructure so are negative for stretched services

[Smartie]

The only help the Tories will be giving to anyone will be by getting booted firmly out at the next election.

They might come up with some sort of wheeze in the meantime to make some of themselves and their pals rich.

I’m led to believe that the problems we’re currently experiencing are to do with “the supply side” so I’m not sure what they can really do to help anyway.

[DH1875]

We just offered £25k over the asking price on a property and according to the agent there were 4 other bids that were higher than hours. This has happened a few times now so property is defo still selling. What I don't get is how so many people are affording the high mortgage rates and deposits as its getting crazy now.

[Since90+2]

We just offered £25k over the asking price on a property and according to the agent there were 4 other bids that were higher than hours. This has happened a few times now so property is defo still selling. What I don't get is how so many people are affording the high mortgage rates and deposits as its getting crazy now.

House prices have went up enormously in the last 7 or 8 years.

They'll be a lot of people who've seen the value of their current home increase massively in that time period meaning the profit made will offset the higher rates, as their initial down deposit will likely be pretty large.

[Skol]

I wouldn’t be surprised if when the interest rates increase start to bit as people come off cheaper fixed rate deals that we see a house price correction take place.

[archie]

Tax relief on mortgage interest would be a start, they wont do that either though. Mortgage holders are in for a whole world of pain shortly if not already along with renters in the short term. Property prices will fall and there'll be a new wave of buy to let landlords buying them up at cheaper prices.

I didn't actually realise how much property prices had gone up in the last 2 - 3 years, properties in my area which were selling at around the £175k mark are now well over £220k at the moment, no idea if they're selling though.

I couldn't support tax relief on mortgages. It would just drive house price inflation.

[Ozyhibby]

I wouldn’t be surprised if when the interest rates increase start to bit as people come off cheaper fixed rate deals that we see a house price correction take place.

As soon as night follows day that’s what will happen.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I think donations to political parties from house builders might be a factor.


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Pretty sure Springfield, based in Elgin I think, are donators to the SNP. Building 3,500 houses north of Perth with more than the obligatory 25% affordable housing. Some housing association for rent as well.

[Gatecrasher]

I would rather prices were coming down via policies rather than a bust but they need to come down regardless, I'm not going to shed a tear for those losing out, houses should be for living in not an investment. It's a total shambles folk can abuse the property market for their own gain.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/resi_analyst/status/1670723579594387461?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Skol]

I would rather prices were coming down via policies rather than a bust but they need to come down regardless, I'm not going to shed a tear for those losing out, houses should be for living in not an investment. It's a total shambles folk can abuse the property market for their own gain.

I agree. I moved to my current place in 1998. I paid over the odds and stretched myself to the max having list out on five other places.

It was tough at the time but now 25 years on I am sitting on a very nice profit on paper. Albeit I would have to sell to realise it and pay over the odds for something else.

If I was buying today I couldn’t afford my current home. The situation for those starting out is pretty grim.

[DH1875]

I agree. I moved to my current place in 1998. I paid over the odds and stretched myself to the max having list out on five other places.

It was tough at the time but now 25 years on I am sitting on a very nice profit on paper. Albeit I would have to sell to realise it and pay over the odds for something else.

If I was buying today I couldn’t afford my current home. The situation for those starting out is pretty grim.

Yeah I've no idea how first time buyers or young folk are supposed to afford it. We are looking the now to buy but even with an £80k deposit on a £200K property we are looking at a £700 per month mortgage. If we only had 5% deposit you'd be talking a mortgage of about £1110 per month. I'm tempted to just stay put and wait it out as we ain't even getting a great house for the £200k.

[Since90+2]

Yeah I've no idea how first time buyers or young folk are supposed to afford it. We are looking the now to buy but even with an £80k deposit on a £200K property we are looking at a £700 per month mortgage. If we only had 5% deposit you'd be talking a mortgage of about £1110 per month. I'm tempted to just stay put and wait it out as we ain't even getting a great house for the £200k.

If you are getting a half decent house for £200k thats brilliant compared to Edinburgh. Edinburgh salaries are comparable to Glasgow, but our house prices are probably atleast 50% higher.

[AgentDaleCooper]

i was having a look at a mortgage calculator the other day, and i'm basically completely hooped for the foreseeable future. My choice is pay off someone else's mortgage and save minimally, or live at home (bare in mind I'm 35), and save much more - but even then, it would take me about 5 years wages, with zero outlays, to get even close to a deposit big enough for me to be able to afford somewhere close to my family south of Edinburgh, or my friends in Glasgow, and even then, the mortgage would be very close to unpayable.

IMO, there's a few things that need to happen:

Government policy needs step in to stop the upward spiral by putting a stop to property investment on a big scale.

People need to recognise that rent paid to landlords is almost 100% profit, not whatever % is above the price of the mortgage. Even when done honestly and with the best intentions, landlordism is, fundamentally, a pretty dismal business, especially modern short-term lets, which are destroying communities all over the world.

Ultimately, though, stopping the prices soaring, notwithstanding an unprecedented rise in wages for care workers like myself, simply isn't going to solve matters - prices need to plummet.

[hibee]

We’re moving to a new build next month and there still seems to be a steady stream of houses being sold there, also around 60 council houses being built across the road.

We’ve sold ours to a first time buyer but as others have said I’m not sure where they are getting the money from, one of the reasons we are buying a bigger house is I can’t see our teenagers moving out any time soon!

It’s not just the house prices, the stamp duty or whatever it’s called now is expensive here too, nearly £15k but would only be around £8k in England for the same house. Just another tax on our earnings that have already been taxed.

[danhibees1875]

Are 95% or even 100% mortgages a thing at the moment? I feel like I see them advertised every so often but never looked into them - they might be a way to get a foot in the door for those struggling to get the deposit together.

LBTT is quite a chunky outlay too. There's some relief for first time buyers but I'm not sure there's much. A plus side to buying in the current conditions is that I've seen houses going with the builder paying the LBTT - as much as a £20k upfront saving.

[easty]

Are 95% or even 100% mortgages a thing at the moment? I feel like I see them advertised every so often but never looked into them - they might be a way to get a foot in the door for those struggling to get the deposit together.

LBTT is quite a chunky outlay too. There's some relief for first time buyers but I'm not sure there's much. A plus side to buying in the current conditions is that I've seen houses going with the builder paying the LBTT - as much as a £20k upfront saving.

For a first time buyer, LBTT can be fairly small. £200k property, you’d only pay £500.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/e3d92ffc26b82469d708d7e2affb3975.jpg

Here is the effect of the SG’s idiotic rent freeze policy. It’s an absolute disaster for tenants, especially younger ones who change tenancy frequently.


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[Just Alf]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/e3d92ffc26b82469d708d7e2affb3975.jpg

Here is the effect of the SG’s idiotic rent freeze policy. It’s an absolute disaster for tenants, especially younger ones who change tenancy frequently.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe Glasgow and Edinburgh average has been driven up by increasing student accommodation costs (your right about the younger ones being hit more).

For those not changing regularly changing accommodation, so most of the rest of the market, currently the max increase is 3% a year, unless the Landlord's got a mortgage that's jumped up when it could be up to a 6% increase.
Still an ouch tho ..

[Ozyhibby]

The Glasgow and Edinburgh average has been driven up by increasing student accommodation costs (your right about the younger ones being hit more).

For those not changing regularly changing accommodation, so most of the rest of the market, currently the max increase is 3% a year, unless the Landlord's got a mortgage that's jumped up when it could be up to a 6% increase.
Still an ouch tho ..

And that is the start of a two tier market. It makes the problem worse in the long run. Established older residents have cheap rent and younger newer residents have to pay more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028342.amp


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[Just Alf]

And that is the start of a two tier market. It makes the problem worse in the long run. Established older residents have cheap rent and younger newer residents have to pay more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028342.amp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk:agree: .... hence the "ouch" ..... probably worse than that to be fair.
Imagine someone renting long term having to move because the Landlord is moving in or selling etc, there would be a sudden hike in rent on any new tenancy.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230620/5ab356b3f76443ea2aa86a3f7805b550.jpg


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[danhibees1875]

For a first time buyer, LBTT can be fairly small. £200k property, you’d only pay £500.

Looks like it's a £600 reduction on the LBTT amount for first time buyers. So not a huge amount, but it's also not a huge burden at the lower end of the market either, no.

I don't think the thresholds have been adjusted over the years, so like income tax there's a big degree of fiscal drag at play too.

Anything above £325k being hit with 10% is a big hit.

[easty]

Looks like it's a £600 reduction on the LBTT amount for first time buyers. So not a huge amount, but it's also not a huge burden at the lower end of the market either, no.

I don't think the thresholds have been adjusted over the years, so like income tax there's a big degree of fiscal drag at play too.

Anything above £325k being hit with 10% is a big hit.

It’s banded, so 10% of the amount over £325k, not 10% of the total cost price. A £400k purchase has £13350 LBTT.

I don’t think the LBTT rates are all that bad to be honest.

[archie]

Interesting perspective on issues in New Zealand - it's written from a US perspective, but lessons for us Where Housing Prices Have Crashed and Billions in Wealth Have Vanished https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/19/business/new-zealand-housing-prices.html?unlocked_article_code=rplFvS2vttJoR3Bn iDN6NJWOIxD2hrwcblFHX-jWmYwTM04_2eTnrIFNj65U5oDoydLf490ACdTMAgNQUbghWmRS 6wEAStHEZdUw2VI3zzEMcWkPcJY_WpN_3sVxu3lqk6BhOC95HT V8IRrZWPv4nEtNXcLU7hk066A8O-Iklq-D53CJOZJ1O5EIqtbvTDNF5_0sPG1nkZgPXo0kYMd4jcYbY2nFZ 5vGdb1ro_IEqpykmwRbP0uVbeJcsOMlu_xcAhyYXNrpIquJWHB EsnDmUslOfQ9TStrgEx9wnh3AKRMXvm3i_-FBHGPHhS_1c9l9XU0dTBPtAMJnUwuo9fd8lvop__-vqQ&smid=nytcore-android-share

[danhibees1875]

It’s banded, so 10% of the amount over £325k, not 10% of the total cost price. A £400k purchase has £13350 LBTT.

I don’t think the LBTT rates are all that bad to be honest.

Yes, I know - I think the 10% band is a lot. My comment should be read as any amount above £325k, not any house above £325k.

A 10% flat rate would be absolutely outrageous. :greengrin

[hibee]

It’s banded, so 10% of the amount over £325k, not 10% of the total cost price. A £400k purchase has £13350 LBTT.

I don’t think the LBTT rates are all that bad to be honest.

LBTT rates are bad if you are having to pay them.

The £400,000 purchase would be charged £7500 in England so we’re being taxed much more in Scotland.

As someone who’s buying a house right now this is a cost I could do without. I don’t even know what the charge is for or where the money goes, probably just wasted by the government.

[Ozyhibby]

Millions of visitors from across the world are set to descend upon Edinburgh this weekend for the beginning of the Scottish capital’s main summer festivals — sending prices for short-term rentals soaring.
On Airbnb, nightly rates for flats near the Royal Mile, the epicentre of the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, have been known to balloon by multiple times what they cost in quieter times of the year. Many performers have accused landlords of “price gouging”, and claim that rising rents pose a serious threat to the festival’s viability.
But it is ordinary, long-term tenants who have to deal with Scotland’s deepening rental crisis every day.
When Nick Ponty’s letting company Arc Property recently advertised a one-bedroom flat in Glasgow, he was inundated with more than 100 inquiries. He often has to remove listings not long after putting them up because “we don’t want to waste people’s time”, he says.
“People are desperate,” says Ponty, whose company manages about 200 homes for landlords around Glasgow. He also has 12 properties that he rents out himself.
The desperation of renters in Glasgow and Edinburgh is familiar to their counterparts across the UK, amid a desperate race for a dwindling supply of properties. But in Scotland the crisis has worsened despite measures introduced by the former first minister Nicola Sturgeon in September last year to address what she called a humanitarian crisis.
Scotland’s devolved government sought to protect tenants by imposing legislation that froze rents in social and private housing. The measures also put a moratorium on evictions.
But nearly a year on, the flagship policy has left both tenants and landlords disappointed, albeit for different reasons.

Renters such as Lea in Edinburgh say the regulations do not go far enough. In November, barely a month after the Scottish parliament confirmed the “emergency legislation”, the 30-year old documentary film-maker — who also runs a mental health charity — and her housemates were hit with a rent increase of 12 per cent.
This is because the freeze only applied to existing tenancies — landlords were free to set whatever price they, or the market, deemed appropriate when signing new agreements.
The departure and replacement of one of Lea’s housemates ended their original contract and they had to sign a new one, which increased their rent from £1,250 to £1,400 a month.
And it may be about to happen again because one tenant in the three-person flat share is planning to move out.
“It is very stressful,” says Lea, who asked the Financial Times not to use her surname. “The freeze . . . has saved a lot of people. [But it has] a loophole and many people did not know about it.”
At the same time, Landlords say the regulations have made Scotland’s rental market unattractive, almost to the point of being unviable, especially in the context of high inflation. Unable to claw back surging costs for maintenance, many are withdrawing from the market altogether.

Graeme Shearer, a 61-year-old semi-retired architect who rents out three flats in a building in which he also lives in Glasgow, said rent controls and other costly regulations are making him consider selling up. “It feels quite oppressive and makes doing business difficult,” he says. “I am all in favour of tenants’ rights but it has to be a two-way street.”
Landlords who need to remortgage face significantly higher borrowing costs: as of Tuesday, the average rate for a two-year-fixed buy-to-let mortgage was 6.88 per cent, according to Moneyfacts, the financial information company. A landlord refinancing an interest-only, 2.2 per cent two-year fixed mortgage at that rate would need to raise the rent 45 per cent to cover the additional cost, according to estate agent Hamptons. Many could also struggle to pass banks’ affordability stress tests, which may require them either to inject more equity or sell up.
A concession by the Scottish government earlier this year, which replaced a freeze on rent increases with a cap that allowed prices to be raised by 3 per cent, and 6 per cent under some circumstances, has made little difference, landlords say. The controls are due to end next month, but the Scottish government has already indicated that it will extend them for at least six months.

When Sturgeon introduced the legislation, it was touted as a Scottish solution that could provide a blueprint for the rest of the UK. However, since it was introduced, political support in England appears to be faltering. London mayor Sadiq Khan favours some form of rent controls, but Labour’s shadow housing secretary Lisa Nandy told a housing conference in Manchester in June that rent controls were a “short-term fix” that could leave some people homeless. The same month, levelling up secretary Michael Gove said in Edinburgh: “The history of rent controls and rent freezes is that they lead to a reduction in supply overall and they end up hurting the poorest most.”

Ponty at Arc Property says the rent controls are backfiring because they encourage landlords, who are fearful of future regulation, to increase rents while they still can. In the past, they would have prioritised keeping good tenants happy in the knowledge that both parties had the ability to renegotiate terms if their financial positions changed, he added.
The flat that drew more than 100 viewings in a day was marketed at £650 per month, compared with £550 in June 2021. Another property in the city recently went for £1,200, from £850 two years ago, he says.
“With newly listed properties, landlords are trying to get as much as they can,” Ponty adds. In June this year, the average advertised rental price across Scotland was 16 per cent higher than in June 2022, according to data from Rightmove — in Edinburgh, asking rents were 22 per cent higher, in Glasgow, 15 per cent. (In London, by comparison, they were 14 per cent higher.) Scottish property agency Rettie says listings in Scotland dropped by a fifth in the past year.
Scotland’s tenants’ rights minister Patrick Harvie, who’s also co-leader of the Scottish Greens, declined a request for an interview, citing an ongoing legal challenge from landlords who believe the caps to be unlawful, but added that he would “listen to and work hard with stakeholders to develop and deliver rental sector reform”. In June, Scotland’s first minister Humza Yousaf said in a tweet that he was “proud the SNP-led Scottish Government not only introduced rent controls but has extended them” — and that Labour’s stance was “quite astonishing”.
For critics of the rent control measures, higher rents are a consequence of policies that discourage investment and intensify the housing inventory shortage in Scotland.
The shortage of homes available to rent comes from more and more people entering a sector that is unable to grow fast enough to accommodate them
Aditi Jehangir, secretary of Living Rent, a union that advocates for tenants’ rights
“While the provisions may have helped some tenants in the short term, data and evidence is showing us that they have also acted as a barrier to investment in the sector,” says Jane Wood, chief executive of Homes for Scotland, an industry body.
John Boyle, director of research and strategy at Rettie, says rent controls could exacerbate Scotland’s rental crisis by discouraging so-called “build-to-rent” schemes which are backed by institutional money.
“We need more supply and bringing this in through long-term patient capital could lead to a major increase in stock, and act as downward pressure on rents,” Boyle says. “[But] the environment that the Scottish government has created has led to these funds walking away from Scotland and it is going to be difficult to get them back.”
Calum Sanderson is a student at Edinburgh university and a spokesperson for Living Rent, a union that advocates for tenants’ rights. He thinks he’s lucky to have found a place in the north of the city for a relatively affordable price. For their flat in Leith, he and a housemate together pay the relatively modest amount of £950 per month.

But while their rent has not risen since he moved into the flat last year, he and his housemate are so anxious about avoiding increases that they have chosen not to flag various “disrepair issues” to the landlord.
“All these things we could reasonably ask to be replaced, but it’s ‘don’t bite the hand that feeds you,’” he says, adding that if they needed to relocate for any reason, they “would be subject to these [big] rent increases”.
Tenants such as Sanderson are worried about what will happen when the controls end. “It’s concerning to think about how comprehensive the protection is going to remain,” he says. “We need long-term solutions,” such as cracking down on short-term lets and second homes, he adds.
While activists and businesses disagree on regulation, they are united in the belief that the root cause of the rental crisis is a failure to build enough housing — the country is short of more than 100,000 residential properties, according to Homes for Scotland. Meanwhile, the Scottish government’s latest data showed it has fallen behind in its target to deliver 110,000 affordable homes by 2032.
Recommended
“The shortage of homes available to rent comes from more and more people entering a sector that is unable to grow fast enough to accommodate them,” says Aditi Jehangir, secretary of Living Rent. “We need this Scottish government to commit to building social housing so that more people have access to truly affordable housing.”
Ken Gibb, a professor at Glasgow university who specialises in urban studies, says the impact on tenants has been complex. A tight market made existing tenants “winners” and discouraged them from moving, meaning there are fewer vacancies for those who are looking for places.
“Rent controls need to be part of a suite of policies that include more affordable and social housing,” he says.


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[Ozyhibby]

Post above came from the FT this morning. It’s a poor policy that will affect the poorest most and it’s already starting to show that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Post above came from the FT this morning. It’s a poor policy that will affect the poorest most and it’s already starting to show that.


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I agreed with it when it was coming out and think I discussed it with you when you were against, but have been proven wrong. I've since read that it's actually had a negative effect in every city it has been tried. Seems building more is the only hope I can see

[Ozyhibby]

I agreed with it when it was coming out and think I discussed it with you when you were against, but have been proven wrong. I've since read that it's actually had a negative effect in every city it has been tried. Seems building more is the only hope I can see

We def need to build more. It holds back just about every part of the economy if people can’t get housing at an affordable rate. This policy discourages people from investing in housing.
If you want lower rents, flood the market with housing.


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[Smartie]

We def need to build more. It holds back just about every part of the economy if people can’t get housing at an affordable rate. This policy discourages people from investing in housing.
If you want lower rents, flood the market with housing.


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I'm just not convinced that the "people who matter" do.

Otherwise it would be happening.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm just not convinced that the "people who matter" do.

Otherwise it would be happening.

I actually think they do but are afraid of upsetting voters. There is barely a house that gets built that isn’t objected to by someone. Edinburgh does seem to understand this and recent announcements have seen less opposition. The city has to expand and we also need to build within the city as well.


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[pollution]

It is always the poor who suffer. I really thought that an SNP government would have protected them more.

[Smartie]

I actually think they do but are afraid of upsetting voters. There is barely a house that gets built that isn’t objected to by someone. Edinburgh does seem to understand this and recent announcements have seen less opposition. The city has to expand and we also need to build within the city as well.


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You could arguably lump them in my vague group of "people who matter" - for every person who is struggling to afford somewhere to live, there's probably somebody else who couldn't give a stuff about their plight but who cares deeply about their own property continuing to increase in value without being able any sort of line between the two situations.

[Ozyhibby]

You could arguably lump them in my vague group of "people who matter" - for every person who is struggling to afford somewhere to live, there's probably somebody else who couldn't give a stuff about their plight but who cares deeply about their own property continuing to increase in value without being able any sort of line between the two situations.

The problem is that there are few politicians out there trying to persuade people that this would be good for everyone.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/plans-to-bulldoze-beloved-edinburgh-pub-smithies-ale-house-to-make-new-homes-given-green-light

The usual cry from nimby’s is build on brownfield sites. Look at how much this planning application must have cost.


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[MartinfaePorty]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7424429]https://news.stv.tv/east-central/plans-to-bulldoze-beloved-edinburgh-pub-smithies-ale-house-to-make-new-homes-given-green-light

The usual cry from nimby’s is build on brownfield sites. Look at how much this planning application must have cost.

My mate bought an old cinema and planned to convert it into flats. The building needed massive work done, but he was going to keep the original facade and agreed to other concessions, following objections from locals. He was determined that his plans would eventually be given the green light, but, after years of frustration from the Scottish Government and local council, he has now had enough. Having given up any hope of getting permission, he's put it up for sale.

If someone buys it they are going to have to spend a hell of a lot of money on it (it's full of asbetos inside) and, given it is unlikely that it can ever be turned into flats, they may have to turn it back into a cinema or something similar, which I'm not sure would be commercially viable. There was some talk of a community buy-out, but the cost involved was prohibitive and not sure there was ever a serious offer or even plan of what it would be / how it would work.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is just left to rot for a few more years, rather than providing people with much-needed housing.

[pollution]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7424429]https://news.stv.tv/east-central/plans-to-bulldoze-beloved-edinburgh-pub-smithies-ale-house-to-make-new-homes-given-green-light

The usual cry from nimby’s is build on brownfield sites. Look at how much this planning application must have cost.

My mate bought an old cinema and planned to convert it into flats. The building needed massive work done, but he was going to keep the original facade and agreed to other concessions, following objections from locals. He was determined that his plans would eventually be given the green light, but, after years of frustration from the Scottish Government and local council, he has now had enough. Having given up any hope of getting permission, he's put it up for sale.

If someone buys it they are going to have to spend a hell of a lot of money on it (it's full of asbetos inside) and, given it is unlikely that it can ever be turned into flats, they may have to turn it back into a cinema or something similar, which I'm not sure would be commercially viable. There was some talk of a community buy-out, but the cost involved was prohibitive and not sure there was ever a serious offer or even plan of what it would be / how it would work.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is just left to rot for a few more years, rather than providing people with much-needed housing.



Did your friend not take professional advice as to whether the council would agree in principle to this type of development ?

[Hibs4185]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7424429]https://news.stv.tv/east-central/plans-to-bulldoze-beloved-edinburgh-pub-smithies-ale-house-to-make-new-homes-given-green-light

The usual cry from nimby’s is build on brownfield sites. Look at how much this planning application must have cost.

My mate bought an old cinema and planned to convert it into flats. The building needed massive work done, but he was going to keep the original facade and agreed to other concessions, following objections from locals. He was determined that his plans would eventually be given the green light, but, after years of frustration from the Scottish Government and local council, he has now had enough. Having given up any hope of getting permission, he's put it up for sale.

If someone buys it they are going to have to spend a hell of a lot of money on it (it's full of asbetos inside) and, given it is unlikely that it can ever be turned into flats, they may have to turn it back into a cinema or something similar, which I'm not sure would be commercially viable. There was some talk of a community buy-out, but the cost involved was prohibitive and not sure there was ever a serious offer or even plan of what it would be / how it would work.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is just left to rot for a few more years, rather than providing people with much-needed housing.

Is that the one in portobello? If so, I think it was the extra traffic on the right streets that seemed to be the problem for locals. I remember watching the committee meeting and the locals kicked up a big stink

[MartinfaePorty]

[QUOTE=MartinfaePorty;7424827]



Did your friend not take professional advice as to whether the council would agree in principle to this type of development ?

I can't answer that, but he's been in the business for some time, so assume he was confident he would get permission

[MartinfaePorty]

[QUOTE=MartinfaePorty;7424827]

Is that the one in portobello? If so, I think it was the extra traffic on the right streets that seemed to be the problem for locals. I remember watching the committee meeting and the locals kicked up a big stink

Yeah, I guess my user name gave it away! To be honest, I don't see him that often, so don't have all the details, but he is a pretty genuine guy. I sincerely hope that some good use can be made of it, but I am doubtful.

[Stairway 2 7]

Rent controls effecting more housing as oz predicted

https://archive.ph/4xvDw

[Ozyhibby]

Rent controls effecting more housing as oz predicted

https://archive.ph/4xvDw

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230814/58cdded9b1e79ec0b6d18b01d8a851c4.png

Love this quote.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/robcass78/status/1691950887025942626?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Exact same problem we are having.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1692487997134905842?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Thread with some good points and some wrong headed nonsense.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/conor_matchett/status/1694000937508192655?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

If these figures are correct then that is a good sized addition to the city’s housing stock.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/akmaciver/status/1694998311281852647?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

A thread on the rent freeze. It’s proving disastrous and the SNP need to get themselves out of it before people notice.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/glasgow-plans-for-300-homes-at-shawlands-arcade-backed-despite-200-objections

Good news but look at the amount of objections.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/glasgow-plans-for-300-homes-at-shawlands-arcade-backed-despite-200-objections

Good news but look at the amount of objections.


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I like living rents ideals but ffs their reason of being is to lower rent. Complaining about new homes causing problems for resources shows they have no clue whatsoever about how to lower rent

Living Rent’s objection stated the proposal would be “detrimental to the maintenance of a balanced community in the area” and would “put pressure on already stretched local services and infrastructure

[Stairway 2 7]

Should show this to the Airbnb owners complaining about losing money

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66645983?at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_type=web_link&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_id=ECDEE698-4651-11EE-A34C-ACA0FF7C7F44&at_campaign=Social_Flow

More children than ever are homeless and living in temporary accommodation in Scotland, official figures show.

As of March this year, 9,595 youngsters were in the system - the highest since Scottish government records began in 2002.

In total, there were 29,652 open homelessness cases in March, which was a 15% rise on last year.

The Scottish government described the situation as ""deeply worrying".

[Just Alf]

On the AirBNB bit..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66641627


Their complaint about the Licencing idea?

1) They'll have to have a Gas Safety Certificate (like other rental properties already have to do)
2) They'll need to have a CO detector, needed for the Gas Cert (like other rental properties already have to do)
3) They'll need to have smoke detectors to current legal standards (like other rental properties already have to do)
4) They'll need to have an Energy Performance Certificate (like other rental properties already have to do)

None of that seems out of order to me.

The last sentence.... from Fiona Campbell, chief executive of the Association of Scotland's Self-Caterers,

"Meanwhile, corporately owned aparthotels are exempt from the SNP and Greens plans."

That's because they already have to exceed all the areas in this new licencing legislation to meet their existing licencing laws.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/itv-news-what-you-need-to-know/id1503075715?i=1000625923741

Well worth 20mins of your time. The scale of the problem is horrific.


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[grunt]

The lying liar lies again.

Here's criminal Sunak agreeing to relax environmental protections to allow more housebuilding, despite the Tories promising they would enhance environmental protection.

https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1696455204990845089?s=20 (https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1696455204990845089?s=20)

[Moulin Yarns]

The lying liar lies again.

Here's criminal Sunak agreeing to relax environmental protections to allow more housebuilding, despite the Tories promising they would enhance environmental protection.

https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1696455204990845089?s=20 (https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1696455204990845089?s=20)

https://twitter.com/Feargal_Sharkey/status/1696555617177981034?t=7vxNzPGSdmhoqQNpy9aP1A&s=19


Feargal_Sharkey is really good..

How to make £493,964,000 in just 8 hours 30 minutes

Easy, get govt to bin nutrient neutrality laws for house builders exactly what the likes of Persimmon PLC, Barrat Developments PLC and Taylor Wimpey PLC did this morning & that's exactly how much richer they are this afternoon

[Stairway 2 7]

Grim stories of people trying to get housing in London. £25k per year wage isn't enough

https://archive.ph/GMy6D

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/agc_reports/status/1697657521140273471?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Self interest over what’s good for the country.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/jeremiahdjohns/status/1697655467713953905?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/residents-are-being-failed-on-housing-adam-mcvey-4276969
Problem getting worse under new council in Edinburgh.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/andywightman/status/1699433072700141931?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/andywightman/status/1699433072700141931?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Wightman has done great work on who owns what in Scotland. The idiots really shouldn't keep evoking the holocaust if they want to win public opinion

[hibee]

I had no idea that students don’t have to pay council tax, how ridiculous.

[superfurryhibby]

I read this today about social and mid-rent affordable housing from Wheatley homes at West Craigs. 425 new homes.

https://www.wheatleyhomes-east.com/about-us/media/latest-news/housing-minister-visits-wheatley-groups-largest-development

That must be the way forward, build social housing and negate the need for a massive private rented sector which just feeds the spiral of inflated house prices and gentrification that has gathered such pace in Edinburgh.
The whole project cost 80 million.

For advocates of any further unnecessary tram vanity in the city, think how many homes the council could have build with what they've spent on the extension.

[Just Alf]

I read this today about social and mid-rent affordable housing from Wheatley homes at West Craigs. 425 new homes.

https://www.wheatleyhomes-east.com/about-us/media/latest-news/housing-minister-visits-wheatley-groups-largest-development

That must be the way forward, build social housing and negate the need for a massive private rented sector which just feeds the spiral of inflated house prices and gentrification that has gathered such pace in Edinburgh.
The whole project cost 80 million.

For advocates of any further unnecessary tram vanity in the city, think how many homes the council could have build with what they've spent on the extension.I hear what you're say re the trams but a key part of the appeal is that the development is close to a tram stop enabling the new residents easy access to get work in town/around leith walk and in Leith itself (in the same way going the opposite way Leithers can easily get to Edinburgh Park etc)

[Ozyhibby]

I read this today about social and mid-rent affordable housing from Wheatley homes at West Craigs. 425 new homes.

https://www.wheatleyhomes-east.com/about-us/media/latest-news/housing-minister-visits-wheatley-groups-largest-development

That must be the way forward, build social housing and negate the need for a massive private rented sector which just feeds the spiral of inflated house prices and gentrification that has gathered such pace in Edinburgh.
The whole project cost 80 million.

For advocates of any further unnecessary tram vanity in the city, think how many homes the council could have build with what they've spent on the extension.

It’s not lack of money that stops govts building houses. Houses literally pay for themselves, hence all the private landlords you mention. It’s politics that stops us building more houses. There is unlimited funds available for a govt who is allowed to borrow to build housing and has the political will to push through planning.
There is no need to stop any other functions of govt.
Otherwise, imagine how many houses we could build if we stopped funding hospitals?[emoji106]


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[superfurryhibby]

It’s not lack of money that stops govts building houses. Houses literally pay for themselves, hence all the private landlords you mention. It’s politics that stops us building more houses. There is unlimited funds available for a govt who is allowed to borrow to build housing and has the political will to push through planning.
There is no need to stop any other functions of govt.
Otherwise, imagine how many houses we could build if we stopped funding hospitals?[emoji106]


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So the current government is failing people by not using the "unlimited funds" to try and address our housing crisis then?

I'm not sure future tram extension is within the remit of government though, It's the City of Edinburgh Council and they appear not to have learned any lessons after 20 years of chaos on our streets and huge sums of money wasted.

Anyway, let's not lower the level of any attempt at discussion with a viewpoint that isn't yours by getting arsey about building hospitals etc.

Social housing, not exorbitantly priced private sector rented accommodation, that's what is needed in Edinburgh.

[Ozyhibby]

So the current government is failing people by not using the "unlimited funds" to try and address our housing crisis then?

I'm not sure future tram extension is within the remit of government though, It's the City of Edinburgh Council and they appear not to have learned any lessons after 20 years of chaos on our streets and huge sums of money wasted.

Anyway, let's not lower the level of any attempt at discussion with a viewpoint that isn't yours by getting arsey about building hospitals etc.

Social housing, not exorbitantly priced private sector rented accommodation, that's what is needed in Edinburgh.

The govt is definitely failing. The SG is failing by not reforming planning in order to get more housing built and the UK govt is failing by not allowing more borrowing to build social housing.
It has nothing to do with trams? And by any measure they have been a success and are popular with the people who live here.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Are housing associations not building social housing any more. I used to work for an architect practice with Link Housing Association as a major client. That was almost 40 years ago though.

[greenginger]

I had no idea that students don’t have to pay council tax, how ridiculous.

What’s more if you have an HMO with 4 or 6 tenants and 1 is a student , nobody pays council tax.

Ps. This was the way it worked a few years ago, things may have changed.

[Ozyhibby]

What’s more if you have an HMO with 4 or 6 tenants and 1 is a student , nobody pays council tax.

Ps. This was the way it worked a few years ago, things may have changed.

The opposite is true. If you have one non student then council tax is applied.


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[greenginger]

The opposite is true. If you have one non student then council tax is applied.


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Sensible, but it was definitely the other way when my daughter was at uni.

Mind you that was 20 years ago .

[danhibees1875]

The opposite is true. If you have one non student then council tax is applied.


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In that instance there is a 25% discount.

[superfurryhibby]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7467339]The govt is definitely failing. The SG is failing by not reforming planning in order to get more housing built and the UK govt is failing by not allowing more borrowing to build social housing.
It has nothing to do with trams? And by any measure they have been a success and are popular with the people who live here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

Trams cost our local authority a huge amount of money. I already explained that I would rather see more social housing built than any further tram extension.

I made the point that nearly 500 social and mid-market houses cost £80 million and suggested that we could have seen a huge investment in housing, had our local authority deployed our cash in a more socially responsible manner.

If we understand that our resources are finite, we have to make choices around how money is spent.

The idea that the private sector is somehow going to meet our future housing needs is ludicrous.

[Just Alf]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;7467339]The govt is definitely failing. The SG is failing by not reforming planning in order to get more housing built and the UK govt is failing by not allowing more borrowing to build social housing.
It has nothing to do with trams? And by any measure they have been a success and are popular with the people who live here.


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Trams cost our local authority a huge amount of money. I already explained that I would rather see more social housing built than any further tram extension.

I made the point that nearly 500 social and mid-market houses cost £80 million and suggested that we could have seen a huge investment in housing, had our local authority deployed our cash in a more socially responsible manner.

If we understand that our resources are finite, we have to make choices around how money is spent.

The idea that the private sector is somehow going to meet our future housing needs is ludicrous.You're not entirely wrong but you've glided past the point that it's the fact they're served by a nearby tram stop that makes it viable for social housing where a higher percentage of people may not have cars.

EDIT: Apologies, not sure what's happened to the quote function :-/

[Stairway 2 7]

Trams are needed if we are to cut car use by the 30% needed to meet net zero. Climate change will effect us all rich or poor. Good transport gets people out of cars but it also boosts the economy. For the £100 million pound housing project announced this week in Leith docks, the project team said the trams were a reason for going ahead with the build.

As oz says its planning that's stopping housing not money. Nimby'ism and ridiculously complicated planning process is holding us back. The effort to get even brownfield sites into housing is ridiculous, never mind greenfield. Developers and housing associations will build tomorrow if they get planning

[Bristolhibby]

I had no idea that students don’t have to pay council tax, how ridiculous.

So a student doctor, nurse or engineer should be disincentivised from going to Uni?

We should be paying certain students to go to Uni!

J

[Bristolhibby]

Sensible, but it was definitely the other way when my daughter was at uni.

Mind you that was 20 years ago .

When I was at Uni 20 years ago it was definitely the case that if you had a non student you’d pay council tax. That was down in Bristol though.

J

[Pretty Boy]

When I was at Uni 20 years ago it was definitely the case that if you had a non student you’d pay council tax. That was down in Bristol though.

J

It was the same in Scotland in circa 2006. One of my mates left uni at the end of 2nd year, still stayed with the other 3 of us who were students and we started getting increasingly threatening letters demanding council tax. Being 19/20 we ignored them a lot longer than we should have.

[wookie70]

If everyone is a student in a household they don't pay council tax, at least that is what my son says

[Ozyhibby]

If everyone is a student in a household they don't pay council tax, at least that is what my son says

That is definitely correct.


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[hibee]

So a student doctor, nurse or engineer should be disincentivised from going to Uni?

We should be paying certain students to go to Uni!

J

Nothing to do with disincentivising people from going to uni and it shouldn’t matter what they are studying, we’re already paying for them to go to uni anyway.

If three students sharing a 3 bed flat in the centre of Edinburgh can afford up to £1000pm per room in private rent then they can afford to pay council tax like the rest of us.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nothing to do with disincentivising people from going to uni and it shouldn’t matter what they are studying, we’re already paying for them to go to uni anyway.

If three students sharing a 3 bed flat in the centre of Edinburgh can afford up to £1000pm per room in private rent then they can afford to pay council tax like the rest of us.

It's a benefit to incentives students it's good economics. We go further than that we pay for their tuition in Scotland, we give bursaries, student loans to be paid only when they earn a certain amount, 8k bursaries for all students in families on less than 25kpa, 10kpa loan to post graduates.

The reason we do this is its good for the economy long term to have an educated populous. The increased taxes gained in their 30+ years makes up for the money we spend on them in the 3-6 years

[hibee]

It's a benefit to incentives students it's good economics. We go further than that we pay for their tuition in Scotland, we give bursaries, student loans to be paid only when they earn a certain amount, 8k bursaries for all students in families on less than 25kpa, 10kpa loan to post graduates.

The reason we do this is its good for the economy long term to have an educated populous. The increased taxes gained in their 30+ years makes up for the money we spend on them in the 3-6 years

I doubt someone that can afford £1000pm would not go to uni and take a minimum wage job just because they had to pay council tax.

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt someone that can afford £1000pm would not go to uni and take a minimum wage job just because they had to pay council tax.

Your doing the thing of picking the people that can afford it. They could also afford tuition fees or private health care or prescriptions or baby boxes when they have kids. We make benefits like free tuition or council tax to benefit all. It isn't about the individual it's about the collective. Every penny spent on encouraging people to get a degree We get back in multiples it's economics of scale

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/gmacdonaldsnp/status/1701834311882674583?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

This correct?


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[superfurryhibby]

Trams are needed if we are to cut car use by the 30% needed to meet net zero. Climate change will effect us all rich or poor. Good transport gets people out of cars but it also boosts the economy. For the £100 million pound housing project announced this week in Leith docks, the project team said the trams were a reason for going ahead with the build.

As oz says its planning that's stopping housing not money. Nimby'ism and ridiculously complicated planning process is holding us back. The effort to get even brownfield sites into housing is ridiculous, never mind greenfield. Developers and housing associations will build tomorrow if they get planning

I'm no expert but all I see is erosion of the former greenbelt, all around Edinburgh. The city is growing massively, into what was previously fields. So are the surrounding areas.

Unrestricted development isn't the answer.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm no expert but all I see is erosion of the former greenbelt, all around Edinburgh. The city is growing massively, into what was previously fields. So are the surrounding areas.

Unrestricted development isn't the answer.

Not unrestricted but the houses have to go somewhere and no-one wants them next to them. The only way to decrease our ridiculously high rents in Edinburgh is to massively increase housebuilding. Obviously brownfield should be first but that's a fraction of what we need. We need hundreds of thousands of homes. People in their 30s are half as likely to own a home than a boomer, a few generations got the cream and also had unrestricted pollution for the younger generations to deal with

[RyeSloan]

Not unrestricted but the houses have to go somewhere and no-one wants them next to them. The only way to decrease our ridiculously high rents in Edinburgh is to massively increase housebuilding. Obviously brownfield should be first but that's a fraction of what we need. We need hundreds of thousands of homes. People in their 30s are half as likely to own a home than a boomer, a few generations got the cream and also had unrestricted pollution for the younger generations to deal with

Edinburgh has built more houses in Scotland that anywhere else for a long time now . The population has grown nearly 20% in a decade and is projected to do the same again over a similar timeframe.

None of that building has resolved the issues discussed here and indeed has possibly exacerbated it. New build housing is typically sold at a premium and can actually increase the cost of existing stock.

And that’s before you consider the pressures all these new houses and people brings with regards to a whole host of areas. Edinburgh councils projection of zero excess capacity for existing secondary schooling by 2032 being only one example.

The suggestion that any government can simply just decide to build x amount of ‘affordable’ homes and that will resolve housing affordability in the location in question is hugely over simplistic at best.

The key driver to house prices is how much people can borrow and at what cost. It’s no surprise to see that when lending was restricted to 3x one wage and interest rates were in a normal range that housing was more affordable…the ability for people to pay more just wasn’t there.

As soon as you loosen lending restrictions, lower interest rates and have a tax regime that allows leveraging and speculating to be overly beneficial you get rapidly rising prices.

The basic laws of supply and demand do apply to housing but they are hugely trumped by a multitude of other factors and have been in the U.K. for a significant amount of time.

So just simply repeating that the solution is to build build build is ignoring all of the above. And that’s before you try and work out how you would overcome the real world economics and practicalities of delivering such an unprecedented boom in building so many cheap yet of suitable type and quality of homes.

[superfurryhibby]

Not unrestricted but the houses have to go somewhere and no-one wants them next to them. The only way to decrease our ridiculously high rents in Edinburgh is to massively increase housebuilding. Obviously brownfield should be first but that's a fraction of what we need. We need hundreds of thousands of homes. People in their 30s are half as likely to own a home than a boomer, a few generations got the cream and also had unrestricted pollution for the younger generations to deal with

Where do we need hundreds of thousands of homes? In Scotland, in Edinburgh?

There are many approaches, one of them is to build more social housing. Where is this notion that building huge amounts of private sector housing will bring prices down coming from?

There are plenty homes, it's just that they are unaffordable to people on average incomes.

A few generations got the cream? You mean people like me that grew up in Thatcher's Britain, you know the one that created huge social discord, left people feeling without hope, ripped apart our communities and sold our social housing stock?

The cream was consumed by the fat cats, same as it ever was

[Ozyhibby]

Where do we need hundreds of thousands of homes? In Scotland, in Edinburgh?

There are many approaches, one of them is to build more social housing. Where is this notion that building huge amounts of private sector housing will bring prices down coming from?

There are plenty homes, it's just that they are unaffordable to people on average incomes.

A few generations got the cream? You mean people like me that grew up in Thatcher's Britain, you know the one that created huge social discord, left people feeling without hope, ripped apart our communities and sold our social housing stock?

The cream was consumed by the fat cats, same as it ever was

If you don’t understand supply and demand then I’m not going to be able to convince you.
There are plenty very cheap houses in places like Hawick so maybe I’m over stating the problem.


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[Stairway 2 7]

If you don’t understand supply and demand then I’m not going to be able to convince you.
There are plenty very cheap houses in places like Hawick so maybe I’m over staying the problem.


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That's it. It's baffling people don't think more houses isn't the answer to lower prices. It's universally agreed by economists and every political party. The problem is getting them planning. We need all houses, apartments, social housing and even student housing.

I read it's estimated the uk needs 4 million homes to meet demand now, 1 million could go on brownfield where does the rest go. This is before the estimated increase the uk pop is going to see. Its relevant to Edinburgh too, our population is estimated to reach 1 million and we simply don't have the houses

[Stairway 2 7]

Where do we need hundreds of thousands of homes? In Scotland, in Edinburgh?

There are many approaches, one of them is to build more social housing. Where is this notion that building huge amounts of private sector housing will bring prices down coming from?

There are plenty homes, it's just that they are unaffordable to people on average incomes.

A few generations got the cream? You mean people like me that grew up in Thatcher's Britain, you know the one that created huge social discord, left people feeling without hope, ripped apart our communities and sold our social housing stock?

The cream was consumed by the fat cats, same as it ever was

We need hundreds of thousands in Edinburgh as that's how much the population is expected to grow. The notion more houses bring down prices isn't really debated anywhere it's a given.

The cream as in a 30 year old now will be more than 50% less likely to own a home than his parent. The housing stock was bought up and new housing wasn't built at the same rate. Add in the council house sell off and it's a disaster for young people, more and more will have to get used to never owning a home

[Moulin Yarns]

We need hundreds of thousands in Edinburgh as that's how much the population is expected to grow. The notion more houses bring down prices isn't really debated anywhere it's a given.

The cream as in a 30 year old now will be more than 50% less likely to own a home than his parent. The housing stock was bought up and new housing wasn't built at the same rate. Add in the council house sell off and it's a disaster for young people, more and more will have to get used to never owning a home

The census figures show edinburgh population rose by about 36,000 in the last 11 years. Something that will be addressed in local plans.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's it. It's baffling people don't think more houses isn't the answer to lower prices. It's universally agreed by economists and every political party. The problem is getting them planning. We need all houses, apartments, social housing and even student housing.

I read it's estimated the uk needs 4 million homes to meet demand now, 1 million could go on brownfield where does the rest go. This is before the estimated increase the uk pop is going to see. Its relevant to Edinburgh too, our population is estimated to reach 1 million and we simply don't have the houses

1 million in Edinburgh??? Currently 512,700 a 7% rise in 11 years.

[superfurryhibby]

We need hundreds of thousands in Edinburgh as that's how much the population is expected to grow. The notion more houses bring down prices isn't really debated anywhere it's a given.

The cream as in a 30 year old now will be more than 50% less likely to own a home than his parent. The housing stock was bought up and new housing wasn't built at the same rate. Add in the council house sell off and it's a disaster for young people, more and more will have to get used to never owning a home

I'm interested to see the evidence for more house building bringing down the price of housing in Edinburgh. My gut instinct is that it's not happening and never will.

You rightly identify the sell off of our social housing stock as a disaster.

Why can't we build more? The SNP have been in power for 16 years, it's one of their failings that they haven't done more to alleviate the housing crisis.

[Stairway 2 7]

1 million in Edinburgh??? Currently 512,700 a 7% rise in 11 years.

Sorry its for Edinburgh and Lothian region its currently 880k but expected to grow 12% in the next 20 years.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm interested to see the evidence for more house building bringing down the price of housing in Edinburgh. It's not happening and never will.

You rightly identify the sell off of our social housing stock as a disaster.

Why can't we build more? The SNP have been in power for 16 years, it's one of their failings that they haven't done more to alleviate the housing crisis.

Yes snp are to blame but they are increasing more than uk gov although thats hardly a compliment. There needs to be a complete planning overhaul. As for supply and demand yes it's not dropping as available houses are decreasing year on year. We need massive housebuilding and social housing too. Short term lets changes are a positive though

[Ozyhibby]

I'm interested to see the evidence for more house building bringing down the price of housing in Edinburgh. It's not happening and never will.

You rightly identify the sell off of our social housing stock as a disaster.

Why can't we build more? The SNP have been in power for 16 years, it's one of their failings that they haven't done more to alleviate the housing crisis.

We have never tried to build more than we need so there will be no evidence.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry its for Edinburgh and Lothian region its currently 880k but expected to grow 12% in the next 20 years.

https://planningedinburgh.com/category/local-development-plan/

https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/info/210547/planning_and_building_standards/12726/ldp2_and_local_place_plans/4

https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/44175/The-Development-Plan

Have your say.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://planningedinburgh.com/category/local-development-plan/

https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/info/210547/planning_and_building_standards/12726/ldp2_and_local_place_plans/4

https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/44175/The-Development-Plan

Have your say.

Your not nieve enough to think filling out that form will change a planning system people have been fighting to change for decades. 250k Scots are on the social housing waiting list and there seems to be no urge to get them housed.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your not nieve enough to think filling out that form will change a planning system people have been fighting to change for decades. 250k Scots are on the social housing waiting list and there seems to be no urge to get them housed.

The current local plan identifies sites that are zoned for housing within the city of Edinburgh boundaries for more than 36,000 house units, both greenfield and brownfield sites. These are preferred sites and it requires developers to come forward with suitable proposals.

This is an environment that I worked in for 10 years elsewhere and realise that development needs release of land and one of the major blocks on developing land is the landbanking by developers.

[Pretty Boy]

Your not nieve enough to think filling out that form will change a planning system people have been fighting to change for decades. 250k Scots are on the social housing waiting list and there seems to be no urge to get them housed.

If you want an example of the lack of housing stock in Edinburgh here's one:

I'm on the email notification list from a mid market rent provider, I'm not looking but have just never unsubscribed. I got an email yesterday at midday saying a 1 bedroom flat was available at City Park, another email followed at 12.49 saying applications were closed due to exceptional demand. Today I got an email about a 2 bedroom at Salamander Street at 1pm, applications closed at 1.15 due to exceptional demand.

Imagine how many people must be applying for any social housing stock that becomes available. As an aside there is some new mid market rent being build near me, 2 bedroom flats behind the Jack Kane Centre. £1300 a month in rent, if that's below market rate then I dread to think what decent flats at market rate are going for. A socialist like Mr Jack Kane himself must be turning in his grave.

[Mon Dieu4]

If you want an example of the lack of housing stock in Edinburgh here's one:

I'm on the email notification list from a mid market rent provider, I'm not looking but have just never unsubscribed. I got an email yesterday at midday saying a 1 bedroom flat was available at City Park, another email followed at 12.49 saying applications were closed due to exceptional demand. Today I got an email about a 2 bedroom at Salamander Street at 1pm, applications closed at 1.15 due to exceptional demand.

Imagine how many people must be applying for any social housing stock that becomes available. As an aside there is some new mid market rent being build near me, 2 bedroom flats behind the Jack Kane Centre. £1300 a month in rent, if that's below market rate then I dread to think what decent flats at market rate are going for. A socialist like Mr Jack Kane himself must be turning in his grave.

I live in Leith, one bedroom house, my mortgage is £530 a month, my nextdoor neighbour has the exact same house as me and lets it out for £1100 a month through a letting agent

[Ozyhibby]

I live in Leith, one bedroom house, my mortgage is £530 a month, my nextdoor neighbour has the exact same house as me and lets it out for £1100 a month through a letting agent

The changes brought in by Gordon Brown after the financial crisis in 2008 have made it very difficult for ordinary people to buy a house.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Pertinent to our discussion. An new article today from fast becoming the best journalist in the UK John Burn Murdoch on how building more houses drops housing costs. With his usual Brill graphs it's a must read. It would be great if some in the government and council were to read it

https://archive.ph/Z7QJ0

Repeat after me: building any new homes reduces housing costs for all
Building unsubsidised housing pushes down rents and prices while freeing up cheaper properties

[Ozyhibby]

Pertinent to our discussion. An new article today from fast becoming the best journalist in the UK John Burn Murdoch on how building more houses drops housing costs. With his usual Brill graphs it's a must read. It would be great if some in the government and council were to read it

https://archive.ph/Z7QJ0

Repeat after me: building any new homes reduces housing costs for all
Building unsubsidised housing pushes down rents and prices while freeing up cheaper properties

It really shouldn’t need said but it appears that it does.[emoji51]


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[lapsedhibee]

Repeat after me: building any new homes reduces housing costs for all

Should reduce.
Would reduce, in a clean market.
With housebuilders being big Tory party donors and the Tory party not knowing/caring how to run an economy, as well as being corrupt as, who knows.

[Ozyhibby]

Should reduce.
Would reduce, in a clean market.
With housebuilders being big Tory party donors and the Tory party not knowing/caring how to run an economy, as well as being corrupt as, who knows.

No, even with all those factors, more supply reduces prices. If prices are still going up then it’s because demand is rising faster.
A lot of the stuff you mention does reduce supply though.


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[superfurryhibby]

Pertinent to our discussion. An new article today from fast becoming the best journalist in the UK John Burn Murdoch on how building more houses drops housing costs. With his usual Brill graphs it's a must read. It would be great if some in the government and council were to read it

https://archive.ph/Z7QJ0

Repeat after me: building any new homes reduces housing costs for all
Building unsubsidised housing pushes down rents and prices while freeing up cheaper properties

A new article from the Financial Times, that bastion of liberalism and impartiality. It refers to a study from the USA and makes inferences which are not readily applicable to housing in Scotland. I can see where you're getting your statements about Nimbys, planning constraints etc though.

"Nimbys have long opposed housebuilding on the grounds that it lowers the value of their own properties. But lately they have found unexpected allies in the leftwing “supply scepticism” movement, whose advocates argue against new market-rate housing developments on the basis that they may increase rents and prices locally — hindering their aim of making housing more affordable for people on low incomes.
This position rests on a rewriting of one of the fundamental principles of economics. All other things being equal, if the supply of a good or service increases, its price will decrease. Unless that thing is housing.

Now here's a thing, all other things aren't equal. We live in a society where the gap between the lowest incomes and house prices are making it impossible for people to live in the communities they grew up in.

The article critiques this concept, saying,

"Another argument is that building market-rate housing in a lower-income area leads to gentrification, with higher earners moving into a lower-income area and displacing the incumbents. But the latest research from Britain and the US shows that there is typically little, if any, outward displacement of incumbents. It is the incomers who have been displaced, priced out of wealthier areas by supply constraints.
In other words, even if you think it’s inherently bad if high earners move into poorer neighbourhoods, the answer is to build more market-rate housing for those higher earners."


Laughable pish really.

[Ozyhibby]

A new article from the Financial Times, that bastion of liberalism and impartiality. It refers to a study from the USA and makes inferences which are not readily applicable to housing in Scotland. I can see where you're getting your statements about Nimbys, planning constraints etc though.

"Nimbys have long opposed housebuilding on the grounds that it lowers the value of their own properties. But lately they have found unexpected allies in the leftwing “supply scepticism” movement, whose advocates argue against new market-rate housing developments on the basis that they may increase rents and prices locally — hindering their aim of making housing more affordable for people on low incomes.
This position rests on a rewriting of one of the fundamental principles of economics. All other things being equal, if the supply of a good or service increases, its price will decrease. Unless that thing is housing.

Now here's a thing, all other things aren't equal. We live in a society where the gap between the lowest incomes and house prices are making it impossible for people to live in the communities they grew up in.

The article critiques this concept, saying,

"Another argument is that building market-rate housing in a lower-income area leads to gentrification, with higher earners moving into a lower-income area and displacing the incumbents. But the latest research from Britain and the US shows that there is typically little, if any, outward displacement of incumbents. It is the incomers who have been displaced, priced out of wealthier areas by supply constraints.
In other words, even if you think it’s inherently bad if high earners move into poorer neighbourhoods, the answer is to build more market-rate housing for those higher earners."


Laughable pish really.

They are advocating increasing supply but you think that is nonsense and we should just all fit into the houses we have?


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[superfurryhibby]

43,000 long term "empty homes" in Scotland according to this https://emptyhomespartnership.scot

They could be doing with being lived in.



"The New Economics Foundation recently reported that the government sold enough public land for developers to build 131,000 homes, but only 2.6% will be for social rent. There is an urgent need for legislation that forbids the sale of public land and requires it to be used for affordable social housing.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/24/the-acute-social-housing-crisis-and-what-scotland-can-teach-us

Suzanne Moore is right that rising house prices are no cause for celebration, but wrong that “not enough houses are being built”. With housebuilding almost exclusively in the hands of major developers, they will be sure not to flood the market to the extent that prices come down.

There is no lack of units, but acute maldistribution and affordability issues. Research shows there is no absolute shortage of housing; there is overconsumption by the wealthy, many of them non-doms, using our housing stock as investments and pieds-à-terre".

Rural perspective https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/6109510/housing-crisis-scotland-property-alex-watson-opinion/

"Across the Highlands and islands, the lack of available property has become a full-blown crisis, largely as a result of second-homeownership and the rise of Airbnb. More short-term lets and holiday homes (often sitting empty for long stretches) mean local young people have few options but to move away from their hometowns and villages".

Rent control-support for this measure, https://www.thenational.scot/news/20069890.thousands-demand-action-scottish-housing-crisis/

Concerns over unaffordable housing have mounted as the cost-of-living crisis has worsened, with rents in Edinburgh, Glasgow and the central belt rising by 10% over the past year, and by 40% in the private rented sector over the past six years. Despite this, research suggests that the quality of rented housing has declined, with over half the homes in Scotland suffering disrepair to critical elements.
"

[superfurryhibby]

They are advocating increasing supply but you think that is nonsense and we should just all fit into the houses we have?


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No, I think we should build more social housing.

[Ozyhibby]

Article from National today.

IT is a “no brainer” that Scotland could build more affordable homes if it had more borrowing powers with*independence, the Housing Minister has said.
Paul McLennan told The National's*Holyrood Weekly podcast that due to a lack of financial levers, the Scottish Government is limited in how far it can go in building homes.
It comes after figures showed that more affordable housing has been built in Scotland per head of population than in England and Wales.
However, it also emerged this year that Scotland’s homelessness figures saw a large increase, with a record number of children living in temporary accommodation.

McLennan said the figures were “concerning” amid a perfect storm of the cost of living crisis and the fallout from the Covid-19 pandemic.
Speaking on our*podcast, McLennan said the £3.5 billion made available towards affordable housing this parliamentary term was the limit amid a tight budget.
He added that “without a doubt” independence would allow Scotland to go further in achieving its affordable housing goals.
“Now if we were an independent country, we would have additional borrowing powers,” McLennan said.

“And when you look at the fundamentals round about borrowing for house building, it's a complete no brainer.
“Because if we had more money, we could build more houses.”
McLennan insisted there was “capacity” in Scotland to build more homes, adding: “But the key thing I think, for me, is if we had that additional borrowing power, the business case for building more houses is incredibly strong.
“And we could go out and build more houses in terms of that but we're restricted because the £3.5bn that we have can't go any higher, and that's frustrating.
“And yet we're successful in terms of what we're building in comparison with England and Wales.
“If we were an independent country, we could be borrowing more money, building more houses, more construction jobs, saving money in homelessness costs, and making Scotland a healthier –*a much healthier – place to live.”
Figures released earlier this month showed that since 2007, Scotland has seen more than 40% more affordable homes built per head of population than England, and 70% more than in Wales.
Almost 11,000 homes were delivered in the year to the end of June, according to quarterly data from the Scottish Government. This is the highest annual figure since 2000.
McLennan added that there were other issues, such as Discretionary Housing Payments, the housing benefit provided by the UK Government to support people to pay their rent or housing costs.

He also pointed to the Local Housing Allowance,*rates used to calculate housing benefits for tenants renting for private landlords, and the low rate it is currently set at.
“One of the key things that we kind of touched on with local government is Discretionary Housing Payments. We are spending millions of pounds on that every single year,” the Housing Minister said.
“The Local Housing Allowance which the UK Government controls has been frozen for three years.
“We wrote to the UK Government two or three months ago, we're still to get a reply.

“I raised it with my UK Government equivalent*... still to get that reply.
“We get that from local authorities all across Scotland about the local housing allowance. So that would make a massive difference in terms of that. And as I said the money we're spending on Discretionary Housing Payments, we could be spending that on homes or building more homes. It just defeats the purpose.
“And it comes back to the point about additional borrowing powers – if we had that, we could be building more houses, saving more money and more importantly, giving people a roof over their head.”


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[Stairway 2 7]

People not believing supply and demand is real is a thing is utterly baffling. You need to rewrite the whole concept of economics to think more houses won't decrease rents. Cutting the airbnbs will help cut rents like it has everywhere else, more social housing and more private housing

Saying John Burn Murdoch isn't impartiality or liberal just shows ignorance to be honest. He's took apart the Tory government methodically and better than any mainstream journo the last few years.

Here's a great article in the FT about tories using wedge issues
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1692509147613282755

Here about cuts to doctors wages
https://archive.ph/wip/tiCEa

He used to write for the guardian here he wrote about rising food banks and crumbling schools 9 years ago
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/16/uk-poor-emergency-food-aid

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/dec/03/public-expenditure-crisis-no-cash-nhs

[Ozyhibby]

People not believing supply and demand is real is a thing is utterly baffling. You need to rewrite the whole concept of economics to think more houses won't decrease rents. Cutting the airbnbs will help cut rents like it has everywhere else, more social housing and more private housing

Saying John Burn Murdoch isn't impartiality or liberal just shows ignorance to be honest. He's took apart the Tory government methodically and better than any mainstream journo the last few years.

Here's a great article in the FT about tories using wedge issues
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1692509147613282755

Here about cuts to doctors wages
https://archive.ph/wip/tiCEa

He used to write for the guardian here he wrote about rising food banks and crumbling schools 9 years ago
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/16/uk-poor-emergency-food-aid

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/dec/03/public-expenditure-crisis-no-cash-nhs

It’s funny that when you talk about getting rid of Airbnb’s (something I support), the left suddenly believe in supply and demand.[emoji6]


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[superfurryhibby]

Good article here on planning and the housing crisis. https://www.planningdemocracy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Tackling-Scotlands-Housing-Crisis-4.pdf

It clearly explains some of the tensions around sustainability, planning and why we can't rely on the private sector to address our housing crisis.

"Over reliance on the private sector to deliver housing
Scotland and indeed the UK, have become increasingly reliant on the speculative private development
model to deliver homes and particularly the so-called volume housebuilders. Their business models
rely on buying up land, gaining planning permission then drip feeding housing on to the market,
building out slowly to keep house prices high.

But many, including the Scottish Land Commission, are now arguing that this model is broken and
won’t deliver the amount and kind of affordable housing that is needed. Neither does it produce the
right quality of housing located in the right places that we need to address net zero climate targets"

"Challenging the housing cartels

The volume housebuilders currently have an undue influence on policy, legislation and decisions. The
planning system has been captured by the interests of those it should be regulating. The development
lobby also control the markets. This is not right and needs to be challenged. We need to make a
complaint to the monopolies commission or request a review of anti-competitive practices.
Homes for Scotland sit at the top table when communities scrabble around for the crumbs.
Communities need equal access to policy and law makers"

[Ozyhibby]

Good article here on planning and the housing crisis. https://www.planningdemocracy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Tackling-Scotlands-Housing-Crisis-4.pdf

It clearly explains some of the tensions around sustainability, planning and why we can't rely on the private sector to address our housing crisis.

"Over reliance on the private sector to deliver housing
Scotland and indeed the UK, have become increasingly reliant on the speculative private development
model to deliver homes and particularly the so-called volume housebuilders. Their business models
rely on buying up land, gaining planning permission then drip feeding housing on to the market,
building out slowly to keep house prices high.

But many, including the Scottish Land Commission, are now arguing that this model is broken and
won’t deliver the amount and kind of affordable housing that is needed. Neither does it produce the
right quality of housing located in the right places that we need to address net zero climate targets"

"Challenging the housing cartels

The volume housebuilders currently have an undue influence on policy, legislation and decisions. The
planning system has been captured by the interests of those it should be regulating. The development
lobby also control the markets. This is not right and needs to be challenged. We need to make a
complaint to the monopolies commission or request a review of anti-competitive practices.
Homes for Scotland sit at the top table when communities scrabble around for the crumbs.
Communities need equal access to policy and law makers"

All of that I agree with.


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[Hibrandenburg]

It’s funny that when you talk about getting rid of Airbnb’s (something I support), the left suddenly believe in supply and demand.[emoji6]


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I think the principle of supply and demand is not foreign to the left, they just want it on a leash. Which is fair enough.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the principle of supply and demand is not foreign to the left, they just want it on a leash. Which is fair enough.

I’m comfortable with that discussion, it’s just when it’s existence is denied I get humpty.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66855188?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_id=DA16E402-5781-11EE-BB14-7350FE754D29

Going hard for the nimby vote.


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[superfurryhibby]

https://greens.scot/news/community-led-housing-can-help-rural-scotland-thrive

From this year, an interesting read about alternative approaches to house building from the Green Party.

"Scottish Green MSP Ariane Burgess has called for community-led housing to be rolled out at speed and scale using a network of building hubs to help rural Scotland thrive.

Such a programme, she said, would help to ensure young people and families in particular, who are currently struggling to find affordable homes, can stay and contribute to local circular and well-being economies.

The Scottish Government has a commitment to build 11,000 new affordable rural homes in Scotland by 2032. Ms Burgess said the pace of that can be accelerated by looking at existing community-led models.

In her Members’ Debate at the Scottish Parliament Ariane Burgess said:

“This can be done by setting up construction hubs - staging areas for materials and equipment at key locations, so we aren’t starting from scratch every time.

“Materials would be purchased in bulk for a number of projects. This would reduce costs, and carbon emissions from hauling long distances, and create local employment, utilising the often overlooked North Highland circular economy and community wealth building potential.”

Ms Burgess, the Scottish Greens housing spokesperson, added:

“This model is not just for the Highlands, it could work in other parts of my region and in the south of Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-parliament-votes-to-extend-rent-cap-for-up-to-six-months

I work in this industry and I haven’t seen rents rise as quickly as they have done since this policy was introduced. Every time I think they can’t go higher they do.


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[marinello59]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-parliament-votes-to-extend-rent-cap-for-up-to-six-months

I work in this industry and I haven’t seen rents rise as quickly as they have done since this policy was introduced. Every time I think they can’t go higher they do.


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The landlords screwing new tenants because their profits have dropped slightly due to having to do the right thing with existing tenants. I’m no fan of the Greens but they are spot on with this, good to see capitalism getting taken on here.

[Ozyhibby]

The landlords screwing new tenants because their profits have dropped slightly due to having to do the right thing with existing tenants. I’m no fan of the Greens but they are spot on with this, good to see capitalism getting taken on here.

And who cares about the new tenants (usually young, or new to the city, immigrants etc) who are having to pay much higher rents?
Landlords are responding to the incentives price fixing creates. And has always created. Everywhere this has ever been implemented anywhere in the world has had exactly these results.
Support away but this is a disaster for tenants.


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[marinello59]

And who cares about the new tenants (usually young, or new to the city, immigrants etc) who are having to pay much higher rents?
Landlords are responding to the incentives price fixing creates. And has always created. Everywhere this has ever been implemented anywhere in the world has had exactly these results.
Support away but this is a disaster for tenants.


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Not the profit driven private landlords who are the cause of much higher rents. Price fixing? It’s protecting tenants from greedy landlords who will pass any price increases plus some more for themselves on. That’s capitalism for you.
As always the social housing providers will look after those who can’t afford private rents , that predates any rent freeze , it’s always been the way.

[Ozyhibby]

Not the profit driven private landlords who are the cause of much higher rents. Price fixing? It’s protecting tenants from greedy landlords who will pass any price increases plus some more for themselves on. That’s capitalism for you.
As always the social housing providers will look after those who can’t afford private rents , that predates any rent freeze , it’s always been the way.

It’s literally not protecting tenants. It’s making it worse.
It is not working. It’s making some people feel better and feel like they are helping but that’s no consolation to tenants who are having to pay much higher rents.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-parliament-votes-to-extend-rent-cap-for-up-to-six-months

I work in this industry and I haven’t seen rents rise as quickly as they have done since this policy was introduced. Every time I think they can’t go higher they do.


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I don't often look at rentals but one was advertised on the pitlochry Facebook recently, 3 bedroom, ground floor in a 15 year old development for £1150 a month and it's unfurnished!!!

No idea if that's reasonable or not but it makes me wonder who can afford that.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't often look at rentals but one was advertised on the pitlochry Facebook recently, 3 bedroom, ground floor in a 15 year old development for £1150 a month and it's unfurnished!!!

No idea if that's reasonable or not but it makes me wonder who can afford that.
Leith walk area is around £1200 for 1 bedroom £1500 pcm for 2 bedrooms £1900 for 3, it's exploded

No idea how a single person can afford that or a family for that matter. Genuinely feel sorry for people starting out right now

[marinello59]

It’s literally not protecting tenants. It’s making it worse.
It is not working. It’s making some people feel better and feel like they are helping but that’s no consolation to tenants who are having to pay much higher rents.


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So how are private landlords who are only in it for the profit helping? They can cry all the crocodile tears they want, it’s high time their wings were clipped.

[Ozyhibby]

So how are private landlords who are only in it for the profit helping? They can cry all the crocodile tears they want, it’s high time their wings were clipped.

This isn’t doing that though? Your saying two things at once. Your saying their wings have been clipped but that they are also profiteering? Which is it?


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[marinello59]

This isn’t doing that though? Your saying two things at once. Your saying their wings have been clipped but that they are also profiteering? Which is it?


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Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

[Ozyhibby]

Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

Of course they are in it for profit. As they should be.


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[marinello59]

Of course they are in it for profit. As they should be.


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Profit before people. Parasites.

[Ozyhibby]

Profit before people. Parasites.

The government have exited the market. You can’t expect individuals to provide social housing?
You are deliberately creating a shortage of housing and wondering why prices are rising.
Name calling won’t sort this.


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[marinello59]

The government have exited the market. You can’t expect individuals to provide social housing?
You are deliberately creating a shortage of housing and wondering why prices are rising.
Name calling won’t sort this.


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It wasn’t me. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

It wasn’t me. :greengrin

We then. [emoji23]


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[superfurryhibby]

Leith walk area is around £1200 for 1 bedroom £1500 pcm for 2 bedrooms £1900 for 3, it's exploded

No idea how a single person can afford that or a family for that matter. Genuinely feel sorry for people starting out right now



Top end rent perhaps, there are plenty cheaper than the prices you quote. Still a lot of money for those that are in the gross small scale profiteering business

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%20bedroom%20flat%20to%20rent%20leith%20wal k&form=000074

Landlord, slacken your noose.

[Stairway 2 7]

Top end rent perhaps, there are plenty cheaper than the prices you quote. Still a lot of money for those that are in the gross small scale profiteering business

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%20bedroom%20flat%20to%20rent%20leith%20wal k&form=000074

Landlord, slacken your noose.

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

27228

[Ozyhibby]

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

27228

Doesn’t matter if they are rocketing in real life so long as people can pretend they are doing something about it with rent control. They are happy to throw tenants under the bus so long as they can virtue signal. It’s disgusting.


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[superfurryhibby]

Some lower and some higher less if unfurnished but near leith walk is dearer. Top 3 in your link are way above the numbers I said.

Regardless even at the lower end and unfurnished it's unbelievably dear. People's extra income is crippling those that are renting.

We need new housing and social housing but they won't come quick enough. Prices have rocketed the last 6 months and don't look like stopping

27228

That should work better

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%20bedroom%20flat%20to%20rent%20leith%20wal k&form=000074 Edit: Although I typed in the under £1000;00/month bit it resorts back to the full price range when posted. What does that tell you ;-)

It is unbelievably dear. Part of the whole gentrification process that is very damaging to Edinburgh and our younger population.

This leads me back to an earlier point.

There is a finite pot of money, we as a society need to spend it sensibly. There are choices, (like no more tram extensions) to be made.

There are also alternative models of housing and development.

Central and local government that serves it's people would be a good start.

[greenginger]

Both.
Unless you are arguing private landlords aren’t in it for the profit.

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

[superfurryhibby]

Doesn’t matter if they are rocketing in real life so long as people can pretend they are doing something about it with rent control. They are happy to throw tenants under the bus so long as they can virtue signal. It’s disgusting.


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You mean the SNP government when you say "people"? Or maybe their supporters across diverse organisations, like Shelter or the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations?

It's almost like the some people are pretending that poor wee private market landlords aren't already maximising profits by milking our housing needy public for all they have.

[Ozyhibby]

That should work better

https://www.bing.com/homes/map?q=1%20bedroom%20flat%20to%20rent%20leith%20wal k&form=000074 Edit: Although I typed in the under £1000;00/month bit it resorts back to the full price range when posted. What does that tell you ;-)

It is unbelievably dear. Part of the whole gentrification process that is very damaging to Edinburgh and our younger population.

This leads me back to an earlier point.

There is a finite pot of money, we as a society need to spend it sensibly. There are choices, (like no more tram extensions) to be made.

There are also alternative models of housing and development.

Central and local government that serves it's people would be a good start.

There is not a finite pot of money.


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[marinello59]

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

[Ozyhibby]

You mean the SNP government when you say "people"? Or maybe their supporters across diverse organisations, like Shelter or the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations?

It's almost like the some people are pretending that poor wee private market landlords aren't already maximising profits by milking our housing needy public for all they have.

Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


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[Ozyhibby]

I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


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[lapsedhibee]

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

[superfurryhibby]

There is not a finite pot of money.


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Finite, meaning to have a limit or an end.

"The funds available for the health service are finite and we cannot afford to waste money".

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/finite

I think there is a finite pot of money, that is why I mentioned that we as a society need to choose how we spend it.

I suppose we could assist the finite nature of the funds available by introducing higher social tariffs on housebuilders, tax and regulate those renting homes as business (like the air b nb's)

I wonder how people who receive assistance via Housing Benefit can afford the already exorbitant private sector rents when the council have a long established local market rate for payment? Actually, I'll have a wild stab at this one and say that they can't.

[marinello59]

It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


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It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

[superfurryhibby]

Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


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Nimby groups-direct from the Sheeple thesaurus of cliche. They don't appear very effective, as the huge encroachment onto former green belt land all around the south and east of Edinburgh for housing shows.

You have no idea what I do. The fact that you have to resort to that kind of nonsense during a discussion where someone wants to point out that there are alternatives your own rather assertive views says more about you than it does about me.

[hibee]

Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

[Ozyhibby]

It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


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[marinello59]

I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


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That I agree with. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

[superfurryhibby]

Quarterly affordable housing supply statistics are used to inform progress against Scottish Government affordable housing delivery targets, in which the ambition is to deliver 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, of which at least 70% will be for social rent and 10% will be in remote, rural and island communities.

There have been a total of 13,354 affordable homes completed between 23 March 2022 and 30 June 2023 towards the target of 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, consisting of 10,459 (78%) homes for social rent, 1,706 (13%) for affordable rent, and 1,189 (9%) for affordable home ownership.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/quarterly-housing-statistics-september-2023/

In the latest year to end June 2023, increases were seen for private-led new build completions (9% or 1,342 homes) and housing association new build completions (18% or 728 homes), whilst local authority new build completions dropped by 23% or 589 homes.

There is a socially responsible house building programme in Scotland, let's not pretend otherwise. Clearly it needs much more investment.

[hibee]

Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

[greenginger]

In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co.uk/stamp-duty-scotland/#:~:text=Scotland%20used%20to%20have%20the,rates%2 0of%20tax%20are%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023

In Scotland, average prices increased by 1.0% in the 12 months to January 2023, down from an increase of 5.1% in the 12 months to December 2022.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

[superfurryhibby]

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

Good links to some of the existing schemes that support people to purchase houses.

Golden Share scheme

Golden Share homes are an approved affordable housing tenure within the Council’s Affordable Housing Policy. The properties are sold at 80% of Open Market Value (OMV) making them affordable to those who could not afford to purchase a similar home of its size in that area.

LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme-https://linkhousing.org.uk/LIFT/

Through the Scottish Government's Low-cost Initiative for First Time Buyers (LIFT), Applicants can receive up to 40% funding towards the price of a home on the open market. Link Housing administers the LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme on behalf of the Scottish Government throughout Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co.uk/stamp-duty-scotland/#:~:text=Scotland%20used%20to%20have%20the,rates%2 0of%20tax%20are%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

��

I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

[danhibees1875]

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co.uk/stamp-duty-scotland/#:~:text=Scotland%20used%20to%20have%20the,rates%2 0of%20tax%20are%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

🤔

£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

[Ozyhibby]

£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

To be fair, £185k buys you a pretty good house in Dundee. Edinburgh prices are miles out of sync with most of Scotland.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

[Mibbes Aye]

Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

[Moulin Yarns]

They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? 🤔😉

[Ozyhibby]

Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? ����

You've just taken us back to the start of our exchange. Will this never end?????? :greengrin

Your £185K figure, as used in the links you have posted is a median average. Using the median to make a point can easily lead to false conclusions.

The mean average for Scotland is around £216K. Using the mean can also lead to false conclusions but the mean is what people commonly think of when they see the word 'average in this context - not median and not mode (God help us!)

The mean average in Edinburgh is over £300K. The mean average in East Lothian is also over £300K. The mean average in Midlothian is over £230K and the mean average in West Lothian is over £200K. I suspect those figures will be more relatable to the majority of posters on here than your scottish median average is. Does that sound fair enough?

[RyeSloan]

Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


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That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

[Mibbes Aye]

That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

:agree:

Nice bit of contribution analysis, or the law of intendedunintended consequences if you prefer.

But as you say, there will be almost countless other factors that come into play, when or even aggregated up to population level.

[superfurryhibby]

The total number of residential property sales for 2020-2021 was 101,055, a decrease of 7.9% when compared with 2021-22.

The average price of a residential property in Scotland was £216,337, an increase of 7.1% when compared with 2021-22

The total value of the residential sales market in Scotland was £21.9 billion, a decrease of 1.4% when compared with 2021-22.

https://www.ros.gov.uk/data-and-statistics/property-market-report-2022-23

However, there are significant regional variations at work. The rural property market seems worryingly inflated though. Alarming for younger people who live in areas like Western Isles, Orkney, Shetland, Argyll and Bute.

In Scotland, average prices increased by 7.3% in the year to September 2022, down from an increase of 8.8% in the year to August 2022.

Annual price change by local authority for Scotland

Low numbers of sales transactions in some local authorities, such as Orkney Islands, Na h-Eileanan Siar and Shetland Islands, can lead to volatility in the series.

Edinburgh's inflated prices......

Sept 2022 Sept 2021
City of Aberdeen £145,153 £148,697 -2.4%
City of Dundee £155,896 £143,331 8.8%
City of Edinburgh £337,087 £315,613 6.8%
City of Glasgow £176,087 £163,969 7.4%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-september-2022/uk-house-price-index-scotland-september-2022

[Moulin Yarns]

You've just taken us back to the start of our exchange. Will this never end?????? :greengrin

Your £185K figure, as used in the links you have posted is a median average. Using the median to make a point can easily lead to false conclusions.

The mean average for Scotland is around £216K. Using the mean can also lead to false conclusions but the mean is what people commonly think of when they see the word 'average in this context - not median and not mode (God help us!)

The mean average in Edinburgh is over £300K. The mean average in East Lothian is also over £300K. The mean average in Midlothian is over £230K and the mean average in West Lothian is over £200K. I suspect those figures will be more relatable to the majority of posters on here than your scottish median average is. Does that sound fair enough?

"The mean is typically better when the data follow a symmetric distribution. When the data are skewed, the median is more useful because the mean will be distorted by outliers.”


Sounds like median is a better method where edinburgh and Aberdeen are skewed one way while Inverclyde and east ayrshire are skewed the other. If government use a particular method there's probably a good reason.

[greenginger]

The total number of residential property sales for 2021-2022 was 101,055, a decrease of 7.9% when compared with 2021-22.

The average price of a residential property in Scotland was £216,337, an increase of 7.1% when compared with 2021-22

The total value of the residential sales market in Scotland was £21.9 billion, a decrease of 1.4% when compared with 2021-22.

https://www.ros.gov.uk/data-and-statistics/property-market-report-2022-23

However, there are significant regional variations at work. The rural property market seems worryingly inflated though. Alarming for younger people who live in areas like Western Isles, Orkney, Shetland, Argyll and Bute.

In Scotland, average prices increased by 7.3% in the year to September 2022, down from an increase of 8.8% in the year to August 2022.

Annual price change by local authority for Scotland

Low numbers of sales transactions in some local authorities, such as Orkney Islands, Na h-Eileanan Siar and Shetland Islands, can lead to volatility in the series.

Edinburgh's inflated prices......

Sept 2022 Sept 2021
City of Aberdeen £145,153 £148,697 -2.4%
City of Dundee £155,896 £143,331 8.8%
City of Edinburgh £337,087 £315,613 6.8%
City of Glasgow £176,087 £163,969 7.4%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-september-2022/uk-house-price-index-scotland-september-2022

The number of £1million to £5 million pound houses sold in Edinburgh is bound to skew the average price upwards.

A calculation using house sales less than £ 1 million might give a more accurate average of what Edinburgh prices are for the majority of citizens.

[Mibbes Aye]

"The mean is typically better when the data follow a symmetric distribution. When the data are skewed, the median is more useful because the mean will be distorted by outliers.”


Sounds like median is a better method where edinburgh and Aberdeen are skewed one way while Inverclyde and east ayrshire are skewed the other. If government use a particular method there's probably a good reason.

What’s the median for Edinburgh then?

Edit::You mention outliers. But the mean average I quoted was stripped of outliers. As I said in my post.

[Moulin Yarns]

What’s the median for Edinburgh then?

Edit::You mention outliers. But the mean average I quoted was stripped of outliers. As I said in my post.

Explain why both the UK government and house letting agents use the same figures but you think that they are wrong.

[Mibbes Aye]

Explain why both the UK government and house letting agents use the same figures but you think that they are wrong.

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

[Stairway 2 7]

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

But isn't England still above both ways you measures it and that was the original point. I've been skimming to be honest because I'm not that interested in if the ONS are using the wrong system

[Moulin Yarns]

I said that you using the Scottish median average could lead to false conclusions. It does. As you proved.

You said the Scottish median average was £185K and used that to make a point. But what you didn't answer was my question about the Edinburgh median average. It's around £100K higher. And the mean average in Edinburgh is well over £300K. That's a lot more relevant to people on here.

But if you won't answer about Edinburgh, what's the median average for Perth and Kinross?

I'm guessing it's significantly over £200K, quite a distance from your £185K figure. What do you think?

I haven't a clue what edinburgh figures are, and to be honest, I don't care. The government published the figures, why not take it up with them if you are convinced that they are wrong. 🙄

[Moulin Yarns]

But isn't England still above both ways you measures it and that was the original point. I've been skimming to be honest because I'm not that interested in if the ONS are using the wrong system

Agreed.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23805735.loophole-scotgov-rent-cap-blamed-bill-rises-hit-record-levels/

Who could have predicted this though?[emoji849]


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[Mibbes Aye]

I haven't a clue what edinburgh figures are, and to be honest, I don't care. The government published the figures, why not take it up with them if you are convinced that they are wrong. ��

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

[Moulin Yarns]

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

But correct nonetheless. 😂😂

I'm not using anything other than published figures which are verified.


Edit : this from the UK government site.

Headline statistics for January 2023
The average price of a property in Scotland was
£185,016

The annual price change of a property in Scotland was
1.0%

The monthly price change of a property in Scotland was
-0.5%

The index figure for Scotland (January 2015 = 100) was
137.1

[Stairway 2 7]

My point all along has been that you using the Scottish median average in the context you did could or would lead to false conclusions. I think we have established that.

As for government publications I’m more than confident that statisticians and data analysts from SG ASD, ISD, PHS, the Improvement Service, Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the other national scrutiny bodies and whoever else you like, would acknowledge the risks of making points based on single-source evidence, particularly using one type of average. It’s foolish, prone to inaccuracy and usually a political choice in my experience.

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/housepriceindex/january2023#:~:text=The%20average%20UK%20house%20p rice,in%20Northern%20Ireland%20(10.2%25).

[Ozyhibby]

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

.

The way the discussion has gone I doubt anyone is looking at this thread now.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Your acting like MY compiled the data. It's the office of national statistics that use these figures. Some of the best statisticians in the country at ONS will be looking at this thread with interest

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/housepriceindex/january2023#:~:text=The%20average%20UK%20house%20p rice,in%20Northern%20Ireland%20(10.2%25).

Thanks, I said yesterday "don't shoot the messenger" but it looks like that's what is happening anyway.

[marinello59]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23805735.loophole-scotgov-rent-cap-blamed-bill-rises-hit-record-levels/

Who could have predicted this though?[emoji849]


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I agree, the right wing response to what are minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants has been all too predictable. :greengrin
There are multiple reasons why rents for new tenants are getting dearer, blaming this legislation alone is ludicrous. Rents are increasing at a similar rate in England, I may be wrong but I don’t think the Tories have enacted a rent freeze down there.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree, the right wing response to what are minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants has been all too predictable. :greengrin
There are multiple reasons why rents for new tenants are getting dearer, blaming this legislation alone is ludicrous. Rents are increasing at a similar rate in England, I may be wrong but I don’t think the Tories have enacted a rent freeze down there.

Rents are rising faster in Scotland.


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[marinello59]

Rents are rising faster in Scotland.


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Less than a 1% difference isn’t it? Which suggests that my point about the rent increases being due to more than the minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants being the main driving force here may hold water.

[Ozyhibby]

Less than a 1% difference isn’t it? Which suggests that my point about the rent increases being due to more than the minor restrictions on rent increases for existing tenants being the main driving force here may hold water.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230922/f66d16828932acf2ab42b0fd23ae05b8.jpg


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[marinello59]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230922/f66d16828932acf2ab42b0fd23ae05b8.jpg


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And the National figures? Having already seen an argument on the use of statistics here I don’t really want to go down that line but the national figures show a difference of about 0.5 %. (Google it.) xEven with your figures you can’t blame the small restrictions placed on landlords for the bulk of rent increases for new tenants.

[RyeSloan]

And the National figures? Having already seen an argument on the use of statistics here I don’t really want to go down that line but the national figures show a difference of about 0.5 %. (Google it.) xEven with your figures you can’t blame the small restrictions placed on landlords for the bulk of rent increases for new tenants.


Obviously it’s impossible to tell…I mentioned earlier about the Gordon Knot of interventions and here we have a debate about yet another one!

But none the less to see both of Scotlands biggest cities in the top 3 of rental increases in the whole of the U.K. during a rather moribund period of economic activity is probably somewhat surprising.

Correlation and causation n all that and good luck to anyone trying to prove direct causation to one policy but none the less the weight of evidence on exactly the type of rental controls applied would suggest that yet again they have had a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention.

I’m sure Patrick Harvie and co think they have done a swell job and the link above shows how proud they are ‘leading the way’. Ultimately though to pretend you can control the cost of rents when interest rates have risen at an unprecedented rate to a level not seen for over a decade an a half is just a folly.

Add in an ever more inflationary tax regime (second house stamp duty, removal of tax breaks etc.) its madness to think you can just mandate 0% increases for x time then mandate 3% increase and then suggest you’ll control even more to make sure it’s ‘fair’.

All that happens is you layer more unintended consequences on top of more unintended consequences until guess what you end up in exactly the mess we see before us now.

[superfurryhibby]

Obviously it’s impossible to tell…I mentioned earlier about the Gordon Knot of interventions and here we have a debate about yet another one!

But none the less to see both of Scotlands biggest cities in the top 3 of rental increases in the whole of the U.K. during a rather moribund period of economic activity is probably somewhat surprising.

Correlation and causation n all that and good luck to anyone trying to prove direct causation to one policy but none the less the weight of evidence on exactly the type of rental controls applied would suggest that yet again they have had a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention.

I’m sure Patrick Harvie and co think they have done a swell job and the link above shows how proud they are ‘leading the way’. Ultimately though to pretend you can control the cost of rents when interest rates have risen at an unprecedented rate to a level not seen for over a decade an a half is just a folly.

Add in an ever more inflationary tax regime (second house stamp duty, removal of tax breaks etc.) its madness to think you can just mandate 0% increases for x time then mandate 3% increase and then suggest you’ll control even more to make sure it’s ‘fair’.

All that happens is you layer more unintended consequences on top of more unintended consequences until guess what you end up in exactly the mess we see before us now.

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

[Just Alf]

It's noticeable that the areas with higher than average increases are generally also where there's university students so a highr number of new tenancies each year.

As an aside, I know some students have kept their rental going over summer even though they've gone home just to lock in the level of rent.

[Ozyhibby]

It's noticeable that the areas with higher than average increases are generally also where there's university students so a highr number of new tenancies each year.

As an aside, I know some students have kept their rental going over summer even though they've gone home just to lock in the level of rent.

You are correct on both points. That is one of the market distortions that happen with rent controls. People hang on to properties no matter how unsuitable for them because they want to lock in the price.
It doesn’t take long on google to read up on the history of failure around the world of this policy. It is surely a sign of madness that we think that in Scotland, we are the only people who can make it work? Are we special?
It’s not just the housing market this hurts. It will hurt the economy as well. Young people will be discouraged from moving here due to lack of houses available for rent. That will hurt employers. Students may drop out of courses as financial pressures hit. There are unintended consequences of this all over the place.


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[Ozyhibby]

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

The exact effects of this policy that were predicted based on the evidence seen around the world where ever this policy has been tried are happening. You can blame it on something else if you like.
Name calling landlords doesn’t help. They at least had the good sense to oppose the policy and explain why.


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[marinello59]

The exact effects of this policy that were predicted based on the evidence seen around the world where ever this policy has been tried are happening. You can blame it on something else if you like.
Name calling landlords doesn’t help. They at least had the good sense to oppose the policy and explain why.


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So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

[Ozyhibby]

So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

So they could have soaked both before? Why didn’t they?


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[superfurryhibby]

So the only reason rents are rising for new tenants is because landlords were prevented from soaking their existing tenants so have been forced in to soaking new tenants instead?

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.

[Ozyhibby]

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.

When did landlords suddenly start doing this?


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[RyeSloan]

So good luck to anyone attributing direct correlation to anyone policy, then immediately you state that the weight of evidence suggests that rent control have a distorting and ultimately opposite effect to their intention?

The rise in rent for new tenants in Edinburgh and Glasgow, sitting at over 13% seems much more to do with profiteering landlords extorting all they can from a vulnerable marketplace. Are these not rises that are considerably greater than inflation or any rise in interest rates (bank of England base rate sitting at 5.25%)?

Indeed.

Review any evidence or studies on housing market policies and you’ll see plenty of comment about how difficult it is to attribute specific changes in that market to specific policies.

However, rental controls have been tried in many guises in many places and have had many many studies.

You’ll be hard pressed to find any that come to a conclusion that they work as intended or do not have (sometimes significant) side effects or unintended consequences.

[Just Alf]

Amazingly, blatant exploitative profiteering isn’t recognised as a contributory factor in these stats.Are you saying that Landords have been immune to Covid and the cost of living crisis?

That their mortgage, annual saftey inspections and any maintenance contractor costs haven't sky rocketed like they have for the rest of us?

[superfurryhibby]

Are you saying that Landords have been immune to Covid and the cost of living crisis?

That their mortgage, annual saftey inspections and any maintenance contractor costs haven't sky rocketed like they have for the rest of us?

No, I’m saying that there are people doing what people do and milking it to the maximum. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that a large number of landlords are doing exactly that.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/id1462649946?i=1000629150093

From about 22 mins in, there is a piece about housing and how Vienna is getting it right and we are getting it so wrong. There is even an example of rent control that works but I’d argue that the circumstances are so different that it just shows why it wouldn’t work here.


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[superfurryhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/id1462649946?i=1000629150093

From about 22 mins in, there is a piece about housing and how Vienna is getting it right and we are getting it so wrong. There is even an example of rent control that works but I’d argue that the circumstances are so different that it just shows why it wouldn’t work here.


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Just possibly.

That's why you referring to a paper which talks about rent caps in places In the USA and Australia isn't that relevant to housing in Scotland either?

Interesting to read that the rent freeze has some reasonable exceptions to it.

Here's some circumstances whereby rent increases beyond the 3% might be made.

"Private rented sector exceptions to the cap
If a private landlord has incurred relevant costs in connection with the let tenancy in the 6 months prior to increasing the rent they may:

issue a valid rent increase notice

apply to Rent Service Scotland

prove to a rent officer that the increase is as a result of incurred costs

Relevant incurred costs are limited to:

mortgage or standard security interest

an insurance premium (other than general building and contents insurance)

service charges paid for by the landlord but the payment of which the tenant is responsible for under the tenancy.

https://scotland.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/eviction_ban_rent_cap

[Stairway 2 7]

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/act-social-housing?utm_source=twitter-share&utm_medium=daisy-chain&utm_campaign=act-social-housing-handraiser&utm_id=fa23

[superfurryhibby]

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/act-social-housing?utm_source=twitter-share&utm_medium=daisy-chain&utm_campaign=act-social-housing-handraiser&utm_id=fa23

Signed.

:top marks

[neil7908]

Don't worry renters, the Tories are completely on your side and definitely don't have scarcely believable, absurdly elitist views about you. In fact, this is that Housing Minster making this completely clear:

"There are plenty of young people who are in the [private rented sector] who are not weed-smoking bad people, in gangs and crack dens and everything else and smashing up the neighbourhood," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66978108

[superfurryhibby]

The former chair of Tollcross community council told the Evening News: “Airbnb used to be just rooms in houses when people still lived in the property and I don’t have a problem with that. But when it’s eating up entire blocks of flats then it’s a huge issue. Areas of the city have become unsuitable for people to live in as a result. The photo of one block with notices for planning and licenses to me sums up the desperate situation. The sheer volume of short-term lets takes too many properties out of stock and rents go up. I am a long-term renter and I know I would find it impossible to get a place now. I think people have been pushed too far. They are fed up and just going for the nuclear option now. That’s why there’s tools online helping people to object to short-term let applications. I hope they enforce these rules. Things need to change in favour of the residents.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/edinburgh-housing-furious-resident-shares-photo-showing-short-term-lets-eating-up-entire-blocks-in-city-centre-4357899

This must be having a huge impact on the housing availability and rent prices in Edinburgh?

[Peanut Shaz]

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/act-social-housing?utm_source=twitter-share&utm_medium=daisy-chain&utm_campaign=act-social-housing-handraiser&utm_id=fa23

Signed. As someone who works in the Social Housing sector I cannot stress enough how devastating these cuts would be.

[Pretty Boy]

Shelter has an online petition to ask the Scottish Government not to cut social housing spending if anyone wishes to sign

https://act.scotland.shelter.org.uk/act-social-housing?utm_source=twitter-share&utm_medium=daisy-chain&utm_campaign=act-social-housing-handraiser&utm_id=fa23

Done.

[AgentDaleCooper]

No, I’m saying that there are people doing what people do and milking it to the maximum. There is plenty of evidence which suggests that a large number of landlords are doing exactly that.

i was speaking to someone today who has been trying to get a flat to rent in Edinburgh for ages - they finally got to view one, only to be told that due to the massive demand, the landlord had put his price up by several hundred pounds.

the problem is that people can't tell the difference between the market and their own morality - it's why the world is burning. i hope, one day, that the above landlord realises what an utter scalping **** he's been and feels the appropriate amount of guilt.

[Ozyhibby]

i was speaking to someone today who has been trying to get a flat to rent in Edinburgh for ages - they finally got to view one, only to be told that due to the massive demand, the landlord had put his price up by several hundred pounds.

the problem is that people can't tell the difference between the market and their own morality - it's why the world is burning. i hope, one day, that the above landlord realises what an utter scalping **** he's been and feels the appropriate amount of guilt.

When you have more buyers than sellers then prices rise.


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[marinello59]

When you have more buyers than sellers then prices rise.


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Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

It’s just a fact. You don’t need to be a Tory to know that.
Everyone seems to understand supply and demand with housing when it comes to short term lets but put the blinkers on with every other issue with the housing market.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

It’s just a fact. You don’t need to be a Tory to know that.
Everyone seems to understand supply and demand with housing when it comes to short term lets but put the blinkers on with every other issue with the housing market.


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it's not a fact, it's an interpretation that's been normalised by decades of neo-liberalism.

[Ozyhibby]

it's not a fact, it's an interpretation that's been normalised by decades of neo-liberalism.

No, it’s a fact.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Spoken like a true Tory. The market is king and that is the way it must always be. :greengrin

It's just common sense. It's horrible when it happens to something that should be a given like a roof over our heads, but simple economics.

That doesn’t mean you can't do anything like increase housebuilding, especially social housing. But unfortunately when there is less of something price goes up. Its up to the government to sort that

[AgentDaleCooper]

No, it’s a fact.


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I don't think you know what the word 'fact' means

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think you know what the word 'fact' means

I’m sure you can give an example to show I’m wrong?


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[Hibs4185]

Im a landlord and just reduced my tenants rent by £200 for the next 6 months because he’s had a bit of a setback and he has a new baby on the way. He already pays below market rent for it.

There are good landlords out there!

[Ozyhibby]

Im a landlord and just reduced my tenants rent by £200 for the next 6 months because he’s had a bit of a setback and he has a new baby on the way. He already pays below market rent for it.

There are good landlords out there!

Some landlords are richer than others.


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