Men’s curfew.

[Mon Dieu4]

Make it so weird and unacceptable for a woman to be seen as a helpless inferior.

Not being funny but don't you think that most of the posts on this thread albeit coming the right place are actually doing that very thing?

[Sir David Gray]

We do have a responsibility to change things though, if that means carrying on doing the good things that you are already doing then great.

You shouldn't feel defensive about it - you're not under attack for what's happened or the situation, you're being asked to help change things.

It's not all men's fault but we all have a part to play in affecting change. Simply washing your hands of it isn't enough. I don't know why anyone would not want to be part of making women safer?

Being asked to contribute towards the safety of women by not posing a risk to them or creating a threatening or unwelcome environment is great, it's just what I normally do anyway so I've no problem with continuing that.

It's purely the narrative that I've read quite a bit of over the weekend which says all men need to be held accountable which I have a real problem with.

It's not been the majority viewpoint but it's sizeable enough to concern me. There's been quite a number of comments on Twitter especially along those lines over the last few days.


For the part of your post that was a response to me. - I hear ya SDG. And I agree with some of your points too.

I think, like me, a lot of the stuff you’ve taken objection to is on social media. That’s tended to be the way of things generally for me of late.. as I mentioned previously on here I’ve actually binned most of my social media for that reason.

Agreed, I couldn't tell you the last time I posted anything on Facebook (despite being a frequent user in the past) and Twitter is often just a competition between who can shout the loudest in pushing their agenda and achieve the most likes and retweets.


The key reason I don’t think there is a equivalence between moderate Muslims being held accountable for the actions of terrorists (case a) and non violent men taking responsibility for making women feel safe (case b), is the use of the words ‘taking responsibility for’ and ‘being accountable for’ ; which are very different. Also, In case a) I’m also speaking to a group of which I’m part of, in case b) I’m speaking to an alien group to which I don’t belong.

There’s also a discussion to be had about dominant groups in society and ‘punching down’ which was mentioned before, but we’d need to agree UK society is structured where there’s a dominant racial group and gender, and I don’t think we’re going to agree on that.

I give you credit for a thought provoking question which made me consider where I stand. And actually you’re right, you weren’t using a false comparison, I think it’s a matter of intention and application.

I understand why you might look at the situations differently when it comes to the discussion of male violence and Islamic extremism since you're part of one group but not the other but I think when it's within the context of this issue I really don't see that it makes any difference. Innocent people are still being blamed in some quarters for the actions/crimes of others and it's basically guilt by association which I think is wrong no matter what group of people we're talking about.

[Crunchie]

I'm not a woman and I can't begin to imagine what it's like for women being treated with contempt and threatened by men, especially when alcohol is involved. But nobody can tell me that sexual and verbal harassment isn't common or isn't more prevalent for women. I've witnessed it myself on too many occasions for it to be pure coincidence or subjective perception. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had to or been asked to intervene on behalf of female flight attendants because men refused to follow safety instructions because they don't take orders from a woman. As a man I never had that problem once in 15 years of flying. The same applied to a few effeminate male flight attendants. No one can convince me otherwise but there is a large minority of men who have extreme problems with strong self confident women or women in a position of authority, I guess it makes them feel like their masculinity is being challenged.
I don't think anyone is remotely trying to say sexual and verbal harassment isn't more prevalent in women than men, I think it's the knee jerk reactions of people like yourself wanting ALL men to suffer and bear the consequences of the minority that do it is where the issue lies.

I saw a lot of males on this so called vigil / protest for Sarah, you can bet a fair percentage of these males you talk about were in attendance, what bloody right minded man would even think of going to that event let alone attend? I'll tell you who, the self same males you keep banging on about is who.
It wouldn't have entered my head to go to something like that even if it was round the corner from me as it was quite clearly for women, what were those men doing there in your humble opinion.

[matty_f]

I don't think anyone is remotely trying to say sexual and verbal harassment isn't more prevalent in women than men, I think it's the knee jerk reactions of people like yourself wanting ALL men to suffer and bear the consequences of the minority that do it is where the issue lies.

I saw a lot of males on this so called vigil / protest for Sarah, you can bet a fair percentage of these males you talk about were in attendance, what bloody right minded man would even think of going to that event let alone attend? I'll tell you who, the self same males you keep banging on about is who.
It wouldn't have entered my head to go to something like that even if it was round the corner from me as it was quite clearly for women, what were those men doing there in your humble opinion.

Who’s asking all men to suffer?

We’re being asked to do a bit more to address creepy behaviour in our friends/colleagues/people we see etc, teach our sons better and so on.

It’s not really a big ask.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think anyone is remotely trying to say sexual and verbal harassment isn't more prevalent in women than men, I think it's the knee jerk reactions of people like yourself wanting ALL men to suffer and bear the consequences of the minority that do it is where the issue lies.

I saw a lot of males on this so called vigil / protest for Sarah, you can bet a fair percentage of these males you talk about were in attendance, what bloody right minded man would even think of going to that event let alone attend? I'll tell you who, the self same males you keep banging on about is who.
It wouldn't have entered my head to go to something like that even if it was round the corner from me as it was quite clearly for women, what were those men doing there in your humble opinion.

I’m not sure I’m not reading this right; are you saying that the small amount of men at Sarah’s vigil were there to be creepy towards the women present? I thought the argument was they were there because they hate the police. It sounds like you think there’s more creeps around than I’d realised. I’d just assumed they were maybe a handful of husbands or brothers or sons next to hundreds of women, and were showing some empathy, maybe I’m wrong.

[Crunchie]

Who’s asking all men to suffer?

We’re being asked to do a bit more to address creepy behaviour in our friends/colleagues/people we see etc, teach our sons better and so on.

It’s not really a big ask.
Asking decent men to do more is not the answer imo, I get what you're saying but we'll have to agree to disagree on the way to go about it. In a perfect world your suggestion would be a perfect answer, unfortunately we're not.

I'm sure we've all pulled up men in our lifetime over inappropriate comments or behaviour and it won't have made the slightest bit of difference to that individual when all is said and done. My solution would be educate the children when they're young both at home and in school, though I doubt that will be the overall answer either.

I'll give you a wee story of a creepy guy who drinks in what used to be my local in Leith. His trips to sit outside and have a fag always coincide with the local secondary lunch break and closing time.
I happened to be sat outside one day in the sunny weather and saw him leering at some girls walking by and pulled him on it, brought it up to the owner/ barman at the time, and the regulars in attendance, everyone just nodded or laughed and said yip he does it all the time.
I don't for a minute think he's a danger to any of the girls walking by, but his behaviour is definitely disturbing and wrong. If you met the guy without knowing about that you'd probably think he's a top bloke as I did and many still do.

[Crunchie]

I’m not sure I’m not reading this right; are you saying that the small amount of men at Sarah’s vigil were there to be creepy towards the women present? I thought the argument was they were there because they hate the police. It sounds like you think there’s more creeps around than I’d realised. I’d just assumed they were maybe a handful of husbands or brothers or sons next to hundreds of women, and were showing some empathy, maybe I’m wrong.
There should have been no men there at all imo, end of story. Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing I say. I'm out of this now I have a few chores to be done before Cheltenham.
Apologies if I've upset anyone on this thread, I'm sure we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

Have you seen the sky news report on the timeline leading up to the arrests being made? It paints the picture I was trying to get over.

[CropleyWasGod]

There should have been no men there at all imo, end of story. Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing I say. I'm out of this now I have a few chores to be done before Cheltenham.
Apologies if I've upset anyone on this thread, I'm sure we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

Have you seen the sky news report on the timeline leading up to the arrests being made? It paints the picture I was trying to get over.

That's quite offensive to those who were there for a host of genuine reasons. Those who knew the woman, for example, those whose partners have experienced violence at the hands of men, those who just wanted to show support.

[danhibees1875]

That's quite offensive to those who were there for a host of genuine reasons. Those who knew the woman, for example, those whose partners have experienced violence at the hands of men, those who just wanted to show support.

:agree:

I'm not quite sure where the idea has come from that there's no reasonable reason for a man/men to have been at the vigil.

[Jones28]

I don't think anyone is remotely trying to say sexual and verbal harassment isn't more prevalent in women than men, I think it's the knee jerk reactions of people like yourself wanting ALL men to suffer and bear the consequences of the minority that do it is where the issue lies.

I saw a lot of males on this so called vigil / protest for Sarah, you can bet a fair percentage of these males you talk about were in attendance, what bloody right minded man would even think of going to that event let alone attend? I'll tell you who, the self same males you keep banging on about is who.
It wouldn't have entered my head to go to something like that even if it was round the corner from me as it was quite clearly for women, what were those men doing there in your humble opinion.


Men suffering? Really?

There is a million miles between what men are being asked to do by women and what you're making it out as.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think anyone is remotely trying to say sexual and verbal harassment isn't more prevalent in women than men, I think it's the knee jerk reactions of people like yourself wanting ALL men to suffer and bear the consequences of the minority that do it is where the issue lies.

I saw a lot of males on this so called vigil / protest for Sarah, you can bet a fair percentage of these males you talk about were in attendance, what bloody right minded man would even think of going to that event let alone attend? I'll tell you who, the self same males you keep banging on about is who.
It wouldn't have entered my head to go to something like that even if it was round the corner from me as it was quite clearly for women, what were those men doing there in your humble opinion.

Your objection to all men showing support for the difficulties women face with some men has been strange up until now but after this post it's entered the realms of bizarre. Are you really suggesting that the fathers, husbands, sons and brothers who attended the vigil are in reality creeps who are using the call from women for male support as a pretence to carry out some kind of deviant behaviour?

That's just insane, who thinks like that?

[Dinkydoo]

Don’t watch porn. Pornography has a huge role to play in how some men perceive women and the relationship between women and sex. It regularly portrays rough sex, often with the woman as a “willing” participant, and how the women are there for the sole purpose of satisfying the man.

Porn has been normalised to a huge degree, especially since the explosion of the internet, and it is linked to all manner of issues.It could play a part, certainly certain types of porn.

I've actually looked into this a bit previously; specifically around how sometimes your eyes will just automatically be drawn to a woman's boobs when you're trying to have a conversation - it's barely even a conscious action. That is to do with your brain having been trained previously to see a woman as an object for sexual gratification. Where it gets complex is that, the seemingly vast maority of folk can handle this annoyance, probably come off as a bit of a creep but still not even contemplate attacking someone.

So, it's likely a perfect storm of - broken home leading to personality problems in a male dominated society, where women are routinely objectified, that leads to the extreme examples of abuse that we see on the news.

There's a lot to tackle. There were creeps that preyed on girls and children when I was growing up without much access to porn too, so it's definitely not going to be a silver bullet.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree:

I'm not quite sure where the idea has come from that there's no reasonable reason for a man/men to have been at the vigil.

It's possible that some people see these events as part of a radfem/feminazi/manhating movement, and colour their thinking accordingly.

[Dinkydoo]

Not being funny but don't you think that most of the posts on this thread albeit coming the right place are actually doing that very thing?In what way?

[Mon Dieu4]

In what way?

Most of the posts on this thread have basically been stating they need extra measures or assistance to make them feel safe

That is a defacto way of saying women are a helpless inferior imo

Not a dig at anyone, serious discussions need to be had about all of this, but the rhetoric is always one side or the other and genuine debate is often lost in the crossfire

[Dinkydoo]

Most of the posts on this thread have basically been stating they need extra measures or assistance to make them feel safe

That is a defacto way of saying women are a helpless inferior imo

Not a dig at anyone, serious discussions need to be had about all of this, but the rhetoric is always one side or the other and genuine debate is often lost in the crossfire

I'm not sure it is most posts on this thead, but I agree with the sentiment.

I think my first post on the thread was around how pissed off I managed to get around the narrative last week that somehow men had to take full ownership of this.

It is unhelpful, just as muddying the water with statistics on male on male violence is unhelpful.

I don't think the answer is to offer additional protection for women. Although at times it may be appropriate, that just feels like we're accepting that "boys will be boys" and there will always be a number of us that make women feel uncomfortable.

Serious discussions do need to be had and we need everyone to show a bit of accountability in changing how society percieves women.

[Barney McGrew]

I'll give you a wee story of a creepy guy who drinks in what used to be my local in Leith. His trips to sit outside and have a fag always coincide with the local secondary lunch break and closing time.
I happened to be sat outside one day in the sunny weather and saw him leering at some girls walking by and pulled him on it, brought it up to the owner/ barman at the time, and the regulars in attendance, everyone just nodded or laughed and said yip he does it all the time.
I don't for a minute think he's a danger to any of the girls walking by, but his behaviour is definitely disturbing and wrong. If you met the guy without knowing about that you'd probably think he's a top bloke as I did and many still do.

That in a nutshell is a perfect of example of what the problem is. Although you’ve rightly pulled the guy up, too many others just laugh it off, so he’ll continue to do it. Until large parts of society stop effectively sweeping it under the carpet, it will keep being an issue. And I bet some of the young girls are well aware of him and feel uncomfortable about it.

Just because someone does it all the time doesn’t make it right.

[Hibrandenburg]

Most of the posts on this thread have basically been stating they need extra measures or assistance to make them feel safe

That is a defacto way of saying women are a helpless inferior imo

Not a dig at anyone, serious discussions need to be had about all of this, but the rhetoric is always one side or the other and genuine debate is often lost in the crossfire

I don't think that's true tbf but I suppose opinion will be strongly influenced by our own mindset towards women. I certainly don't see women as helpless and weak, it's not a precondition of being targeted for violence or abuse, more likely self-loathing or some kind of inferiority complex are more likely to be motivating factors.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm not sure it is most posts on this thead, but I agree with the sentiment.

I think my first post on the thread was around how pissed off I managed to get around the narrative last week that somehow men had to take full ownership of this.

It is unhelpful, just as muddying the water with statistics on male on male violence is unhelpful.

I don't think the answer is to offer additional protection for women. Although at times it may be appropriate, that just feels like we're accepting that "boys will be boys" and there will always be a number of us that make women feel uncomfortable.

Serious discussions do need to be had and we need everyone to show a bit of accountability in changing how society percieves women.

It all comes down to experiences you've had I think, I have spoken to a few females in my life about it, all perfectly well adjusted sensible people and I was pretty surprised to find that it was pretty much 50/50 on experiences and what to do about it

That ranged from people giving total support of the people at the vigil to my own mum thinking they are a bunch of ********s trying to make it all about them

It's always the case when you try to speak on behalf of all women, black people, Hibs fans, not everyone's experience is the same

[Mon Dieu4]

I don't think that's true tbf but I suppose opinion will be strongly influenced by our own mindset towards women. I certainly don't see women as helpless and weak, it's not a precondition of being targeted for violence or abuse, more likely self-loathing or some kind of inferiority complex are more likely to be motivating factors.

I agree in many ways, I've always been surrounded by strong women and as a result if I ever even insinuated they were weaker or helpless I'd get my heid to play with

Also if my Mum ever found out I degraded or mistreated a lady I'd be done for

[hibsbollah]

Most of the posts on this thread have basically been stating they need extra measures or assistance to make them feel safe

That is a defacto way of saying women are a helpless inferior imo

Not a dig at anyone, serious discussions need to be had about all of this, but the rhetoric is always one side or the other and genuine debate is often lost in the crossfire

When you watch a range of people who seem well informed on this topic, whether it’s female MPs or MSPs, rape crisis centre workers, even cops who deal with domestic violence, there’s a general agreement that violence against women isn’t going to go away without the involvement of men in some form of campaigning or awareness raising. That’s the main takeaway from the speeches and coverage.

That obviously gets painted in some quarters as of ‘well meaning liberal men trying to impose stuff on weak women’. The same thing happened with how BLM got portrayed, it’s all driven by white liberals etc etc.
But that’s not what’s being said, at least by me:greengrin Just get involved, take it seriously, do something about it. It’s not a men vs women thing, it should be just folk coming together to change attitudes.

Honestly, just having a look at the stats can make you depressed. % of women experiencing rape, %of girls being groped and feeling intimidated, 30% of 18-24 females have been sexually abused, it’s literally every female I speak to has some sort of experience. Still, there’s stats that a third of folk in the UK think that girls who flirt are to blame for being raped. It’s just bizarre, makes no sense to me.

Also it’s a global thing, girl I know in France would never take the train anywhere alone, aKorean woman I know would never take the subway at home because gropings a literally daily thing, the situation in India is well reported on with women at the bottom of the caste system considered basically fair game. Obviously as a dad to girls I tend to get the rage about this more than some but I think it should be a universal thing to get disgusted about. Definitely something needs to change.

[Mon Dieu4]

When you watch a range of people who seem well informed on this topic, whether it’s female MPs or MSPs, rape crisis centre workers, even cops who deal with domestic violence, there’s a general agreement that violence against women isn’t going to go away without the involvement of men in some form of campaigning or awareness raising. That’s the main takeaway from the speeches and coverage.

That obviously gets painted in some quarters as of ‘well meaning liberal men trying to impose stuff on weak women’. The same thing happened with how BLM got portrayed, it’s all driven by white liberals etc etc.
But that’s not what’s being said, at least by me:greengrin Just get involved, take it seriously, do something about it. It’s not a men vs women thing, it should be just folk coming together to change attitudes.

Honestly, just having a look at the stats can make you depressed. % of women experiencing rape, %of girls being groped and feeling intimidated, 30% of 18-24 females have been sexually abused, it’s literally every female I speak to has some sort of experience. Still, there’s stats that a third of folk in the UK think that girls who flirt are to blame for being raped. It’s just bizarre, makes no sense to me.

Also it’s a global thing, girl I know in France would never take the train anywhere alone, aKorean woman I know would never take the subway at home because gropings a literally daily thing, the situation in India is well reported on with women at the bottom of the caste system considered basically fair game. Obviously as a dad to girls I tend to get the rage about this more than some but I think it should be a universal thing to get disgusted about. Definitely something needs to change.

I agree with everything you've said, I just think things could be framed better at times even when it should be the most obvious thing in the world for folk to get behind

Part of the reason you will never find me on social media these days, I only really use this place, it's a free for all

Also like talking to people like you on things like this as there are things I might not even have thought of and in this day and age I'm not afraid to do what many folk can't and admit when I'm wrong or have something skewed the wrong way haha

[hibsbollah]

I agree with everything you've said, I just think things could be framed better at times even when it should be the most obvious thing in the world for folk to get behind

Part of the reason you will never find me on social media these days, I only really use this place, it's a free for all

Also like talking to people like you on things like this as there are things I might not even have thought of and in this day and age I'm not afraid to do what many folk can't and admit when I'm wrong or have something skewed the wrong way haha

Och you know me, I like a good row. Nothing wrong with a different opinion. It all stays good natured until someone starts talking about Colin Nish or John Rankin :grr:

[matty_f]

When you watch a range of people who seem well informed on this topic, whether it’s female MPs or MSPs, rape crisis centre workers, even cops who deal with domestic violence, there’s a general agreement that violence against women isn’t going to go away without the involvement of men in some form of campaigning or awareness raising. That’s the main takeaway from the speeches and coverage.

That obviously gets painted in some quarters as of ‘well meaning liberal men trying to impose stuff on weak women’. The same thing happened with how BLM got portrayed, it’s all driven by white liberals etc etc.
But that’s not what’s being said, at least by me:greengrin Just get involved, take it seriously, do something about it. It’s not a men vs women thing, it should be just folk coming together to change attitudes.

Honestly, just having a look at the stats can make you depressed. % of women experiencing rape, %of girls being groped and feeling intimidated, 30% of 18-24 females have been sexually abused, it’s literally every female I speak to has some sort of experience. Still, there’s stats that a third of folk in the UK think that girls who flirt are to blame for being raped. It’s just bizarre, makes no sense to me.

Also it’s a global thing, girl I know in France would never take the train anywhere alone, aKorean woman I know would never take the subway at home because gropings a literally daily thing, the situation in India is well reported on with women at the bottom of the caste system considered basically fair game. Obviously as a dad to girls I tend to get the rage about this more than some but I think it should be a universal thing to get disgusted about. Definitely something needs to change.
Fundamentally, women can't stop men being rapists.

That's not about them being helpless or weak or anything like that, they're just not accountable for men being rapists etc.

[Dinkydoo]

Fundamentally, women can't stop men being rapists.

That's not about them being helpless or weak or anything like that, they're just not accountable for men being rapists etc.Yeah, but at the risk of going over old ground, I don't think any of us can really stop a rapist being a rapist.

The change that needs to happen is more fundamental in society than calling out unacceptable behaviour when it happens and that, surely is everyone's responsibility.

If not, why not? Despite being unlikely to be the target of rape, I was simply born into this scenario as much as anyone else was, surely I shouldn't be held accountable for fixing a problem with my gender just because I was born with a *****...

Happy to help - and if that means taking part in protests and being more vocal in all areas of my life, I'll do that. But we need to take care that we're not changing something that society should be endeavouring to change into something that only men should feel responsible for.

[Berwickhibby]

There is about 5 subjects being discussed all under one topic so what is it we are looking to address immediately

1. Men's general ignorance is making women feel uncomfortable i.e. Walking to close invading personal space at work etc

2. Men's Laddish behaviour with all the enduendo then add alcohol into the mix, the unwelcomed physical touching etc.

3. Mating attempts, trying their luck, to be other knocked back or successful.

4. Domestic abuse, control power, degradation, violence, rape...probably more common than most people care to admit. This imho is where young men take their early lead on behaviour towards women.

5. Stranger attacks and murder, although rare sends shockwaves through the community.


I think number 1 is easily addressed with awareness and number 4 needs more and stronger legislation the Tories austerity have Shut down nearly all domestic violence and child protection units, many support systems are charity's and have suffered with lack of donations due to Covid. Imho Protecting women from actual abuse and assaults need addressed more than perceived attacks. I think 2 and 3 will reduce as 1 and 4 is addresses properly. I doubt with ever be able to stop the evil people in the world hell bent on attacking and raping.

[Crunchie]

Your objection to all men showing support for the difficulties women face with some men has been strange up until now but after this post it's entered the realms of bizarre. Are you really suggesting that the fathers, husbands, sons and brothers who attended the vigil are in reality creeps who are using the call from women for male support as a pretence to carry out some kind of deviant behaviour?

That's just insane, who thinks like that?

This post backs up your claim that we're poles apart on common sense, I would have thought it common sense to think that there was a certain creepy element at that vigil. Perpetrators of heinous crimes go where their prey is, do they not?
You go on believing that husbands, fathers, sons and brothers are incapable of deviant behaviour, I'm struggling to think of anyone that leaves tbh.
I never said ALL the men btw, I said a fair %, you carry on thinking there was no chance of a creep being there, I'll take the common sense approach based on my life experience.
You can have the last say on the matter, I'm out as they say.

[Hibrandenburg]

This post backs up your claim that we're poles apart on common sense, I would have thought it common sense to think that there was a certain creepy element at that vigil. Perpetrators of heinous crimes go where their prey is, do they not?
You go on believing that husbands, fathers, sons and brothers are incapable of deviant behaviour, I'm struggling to think of anyone that leaves tbh.
I never said ALL the men btw, I said a fair %, you carry on thinking there was no chance of a creep being there, I'll take the common sense approach based on my life experience.
You can have the last say on the matter, I'm out as they say.

Nice try, but you went on to say that no man in their right mind would attend those vigils and those that do have some kind of creepy agenda. That's just bizarre.

[CropleyWasGod]

This post backs up your claim that we're poles apart on common sense, I would have thought it common sense to think that there was a certain creepy element at that vigil. Perpetrators of heinous crimes go where their prey is, do they not?
You go on believing that husbands, fathers, sons and brothers are incapable of deviant behaviour, I'm struggling to think of anyone that leaves tbh.
I never said ALL the men btw, I said a fair %, you carry on thinking there was no chance of a creep being there, I'll take the common sense approach based on my life experience.
You can have the last say on the matter, I'm out as they say.

You went on to say that there should have been no men there. I think that's what people were objecting to.

A colleague of mine organised a similar event at the Meadows on Monday. Men were "welcome, as long as they don't centre themselves". I think that's reasonable in the circumstances.

[lapsedhibee]

You went on to say that there should have been no men there. I think that's what people were objecting to.

A colleague of mine organised a similar event at the Meadows on Monday. Men were "welcome, as long as they don't centre themselves". I think that's reasonable in the circumstances.

How hard would it have been to add a simple "and are not creepy"? Maybe keep her right if there's a next time? :dunno:

[matty_f]

This post backs up your claim that we're poles apart on common sense, I would have thought it common sense to think that there was a certain creepy element at that vigil. Perpetrators of heinous crimes go where their prey is, do they not?
You go on believing that husbands, fathers, sons and brothers are incapable of deviant behaviour, I'm struggling to think of anyone that leaves tbh.
I never said ALL the men btw, I said a fair %, you carry on thinking there was no chance of a creep being there, I'll take the common sense approach based on my life experience.
You can have the last say on the matter, I'm out as they say.

I'll be honest and say I thought the logic was skewed - perpetrators may very well go where there's prey but they're unlikely to go where the prey heavily outnumber them.

I genuinely don't think common sense would make most people think that the men that turned up were wrong 'uns.

[JimBHibees]

You went on to say that there should have been no men there. I think that's what people were objecting to.

A colleague of mine organised a similar event at the Meadows on Monday. Men were "welcome, as long as they don't centre themselves". I think that's reasonable in the circumstances.

What does dont centre themselves mean? Turn up alone?

[CropleyWasGod]

What does dont centre themselves mean? Turn up alone?

Presumably don't put themselves at the centre of the event. Support it with respect.

[hibsbollah]

Sad and upsetting story with some lessons

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4c5ZgDigfYLQpEJVlbHtJc?si=xK_MWL4zQ_2lgQkfM61QvQ

[Keith_M]

Presumably don't put themselves at the centre of the event. Support it with respect.


Does that mean as long as they don't hijack the event?

:dunno:


I can't imagine why anybody would want to do that, but I suppose there are some pretty strange people out there.

[JimBHibees]

Presumably don't put themselves at the centre of the event. Support it with respect.

Ok :aok:

[CMurdoch]

It looks like the accused is a 48 year old guy but with only 2 years Police service.
Makes more sense than a guy with 20 years service suddenly going rogue.

He is a predator like the culprit in the Moira Jones case so no amount of placing cops in and around licenced pubs and clubs can address the threat posed by such a person.

The only way to stop guys like this is to take away the opportunity to commit such crimes and that is what loads of folk on this thread have spoken about by telling the women in their lives not to walk home alone, don't take short cuts where they can't be seen, carry an alarm and make sure it is accessible etc, etc.

That's the only way the females in your life will be safe from harm from such predators so never stop emphasising these messages to you daughters, wife's and girlfriends no matter how much they think you are fussing.

[McD]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/football-sexism-online-abuse-sarah-everard-b1818366.html


Melissa Reddy, a female football journalist, shares some of her experiences

[CMurdoch]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/football-sexism-online-abuse-sarah-everard-b1818366.html


Melissa Reddy, a female football journalist, shares some of her experiences

When you read the two incidents she describes at Wembley you can picture the culprits as typical guys showing off in front of their mates on their day out at the fitbaw.
It's the same pathetic guys going to and from games desperately showing off to their mates how hard they are or abusing folk or property all in an effort to somehow raise their status. I thought CCS were the same selfish and inadequate folk doing what they wanted without thought for or simply not caring how it affected others. All whilst wearing their uniforms. Years later I still see them in their uniforms desperately trying to cling onto their once self perceived relevance.

Men need to behave better and their mates need to let them know when their behaviour is unacceptable wherever that might be.
Will it change anytime soon. Probably not, but the conversation can start a small positive change. To that end I saw a comment on the main forum where CropleyWasGod challenged an inappropriate post about Shelley Kerr. A start.

[Andy74]

When you read the two incidents she describes at Wembley you can picture the culprits as typical guys showing off in front of their mates on their day out at the fitbaw.
It's the same pathetic guys going to and from games desperately showing off to their mates how hard they are or abusing folk or property all in an effort to somehow raise their status. I thought CCS were the same selfish and inadequate folk doing what they wanted without thought for or simply not caring how it affected others. All whilst wearing their uniforms. Years later I still see them in their uniforms desperately trying to cling onto their once self perceived relevance.

Men need to behave better and their mates need to let them know when their behaviour is unacceptable wherever that might be.
Will it change anytime soon. Probably not, but the conversation can start a small positive change. To that end I saw a comment on the main forum where CropleyWasGod challenged an inappropriate post about Shelley Kerr. A start.

It might help though if perspective was being kept on what is inappropriate. The Shelley Kerr remark was an example of her appearance being made fun of, sure, but just in exactly the same way as the male pundits we don’t like.

Too many issues being conflated here that aren’t really linked.

[matty_f]

It might help though if perspective was being kept on what is inappropriate. The Shelley Kerr remark was an example of her appearance being made fun of, sure, but just in exactly the same way as the male pundits we don’t like.

Too many issues being conflated here that aren’t really linked.

They’re not, if you want to look at the reason behind serious assaults on women then you have to challenge the behaviours that create a culture where women are targets.

The issues are intrinsically linked.

[SteveHFC]

Anyone catch what one women said on STV News just now?

She said all men should be treated as predators.

[Keith_M]

Anyone catch what one women said on STV News just now?

She said all men should be treated as predators.


Did she say 'predators', or 'potential predators'?

[danhibees1875]

Did she say 'predators', or 'potential predators'?

I was just watching it myself. She said this:

"We know that all men are not attackers, we know that as a fact. But because it happens so often you have to look at every man as a predator to keep yourself safe"

[Keith_M]

I was just watching it myself. She said this:

"We know that all men are not attackers, we know that as a fact. But because it happens so often you have to look at every man as a predator to keep yourself safe"


Thanks.

That's definitely different from what was previously posted, but still a little bit disheartening to hear that's how she feels.

[CapitalGreen]

I was just watching it myself. She said this:

"We know that all men are not attackers, we know that as a fact. But because it happens so often you have to look at every man as a predator to keep yourself safe"

Thanks, so nothing like the context SteveHFC presented it as.

[Since90+2]

I was just watching it myself. She said this:

"We know that all men are not attackers, we know that as a fact. But because it happens so often you have to look at every man as a predator to keep yourself safe"

Surely by definition any human being can be a potential attacker? Male, female or gender neutral.

[CapitalGreen]

Surely by definition any human being can be a potential attacker? Male, female or gender neutral.

I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise have they?

[Jay]

I was just watching it myself. She said this:

"We know that all men are not attackers, we know that as a fact. But because it happens so often you have to look at every man as a predator to keep yourself safe"

I kind of understand that. As a woman you grow up with an alert and protect mentality. Your always aware of your surroundings and who is there and put thought into protecting yourself by what way you go home, where the street lights are etc. Its very much part of life.

If after a back shift I am walking up the road at the back of 11 and a man walks towards me, even on the other side of the road my alert level goes up.. It's nothing personal towards this stranger, i hate to think anybodys ever looked at my sons like that but I'll guarantee you they have.

[Keith_M]

I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise have they?


Well, TBF, there's been an awful lot of articles in various news media saying that Men have to step up and solve this problem,

I get that some men might be able to influence the behaviour of their friends, to some degree, but it's definitely being overstated as to the effect that men in general can have.


Though I agree with some other posters that this is distracting from what a lot of women are currently feeling... it's just that message isn't always coming over well, and seems to be a bit divisive.

[Keith_M]

I kind of understand that. As a woman you grow up with an alert and protect mentality. Your always aware of your surroundings and who is there and put thought into protecting yourself by what way you go home, where the street lights are etc. Its very much part of life.

If after a back shift I am walking up the road at the back of 11 and a man walks towards me, even on the other side of the road my alert level goes up.. It's nothing personal towards this stranger, i hate to think anybodys ever looked at my sons like that but I'll guarantee you they have.


Thanks for sharing your experience.

:aok:

[Since90+2]

I kind of understand that. As a woman you grow up with an alert and protect mentality. Your always aware of your surroundings and who is there and put thought into protecting yourself by what way you go home, where the street lights are etc. Its very much part of life.

If after a back shift I am walking up the road at the back of 11 and a man walks towards me, even on the other side of the road my alert level goes up.. It's nothing personal towards this stranger, i hate to think anybodys ever looked at my sons like that but I'll guarantee you they have.

I'd imagine for a good proportion of men it's probably the same. Walking a road late at night alone you always have a sense of alertness that just isn't there during daylight hours.

It will be different for every person but it's likely to be a more anxious moment for women than men, although as has been pointed out on this thread it's men who statistically are more likely to be attacked.

[Jay]

I'd imagine for a good proportion of men it's probably the same. Walking a road late at night alone you always have a sense of alertness that just isn't there during daylight hours.

It will be different for every person but it's likely to be a more anxious moment for women than men, although as has been pointed out on this thread it's men who statistically are more likely to be attacked.

This answer is the very reason I'd decided not to post on this thread . I'll bow out again. :aok:

[Since90+2]

This answer is the very reason I'd decided not to post on this thread . I'll bow out again. :aok:

I'm not disagreeing with your experience at all just giving my own personal experience of a similar situation.

[Keith_M]

This answer is the very reason I'd decided not to post on this thread . I'll bow out again. :aok:



Please don't, we really need to hear your experiences and point of view, even if some people might give an 'alternative' viewpoint.

I'm a married man, have a daughter and lots of female friends and relatives that I care deeply about, but I definitely can't speak for how they feel about issues.

[lapsedhibee]

This answer is the very reason I'd decided not to post on this thread . I'll bow out again. :aok:

A pity.

[Jay]

I'm not disagreeing with your experience at all just giving my own personal experience of a similar situation.


Oh I know I'll regret this.

Your experience is so different though. If you see a male walking down the street on the opposite side even at 11 at night youd probably not give a thought, maybe be a bit more alert to him being there but generally a glance would be enough for you.
Most women would immediately see him as a potential threat, watch his behaviour, see if he slows down or looks across at her for the few seconds hes in her sight then look back to check hes not turned . And if you do fee threatened most likely its fear of being robbed.

Walking up the road at night would you phone a pal or relative to chat to to make you feel safer? Someone making sure you get home okay?

Another example, I live near a beautiful country park and I love walking. I wont walk alone there during the day . Our local facebook page has loads of photos of the wildlife that walkers have taken, all the photographers are men, they feel safe .

I dont know what the answers are. It's as much a womens problem as a it is mens. Maybe if we all speak up now , even on the small inappropriate jokes or comments the girls and women of the future wont feel the same way we do now .

[Since90+2]

Oh I know I'll regret this.

Your experience is so different though. If you see a male walking down the street on the opposite side even at 11 at night youd probably not give a thought, maybe be a bit more alert to him being there but generally a glance would be enough for you.
Most women would immediately see him as a potential threat, watch his behaviour, see if he slows down or looks across at her for the few seconds hes in her sight then look back to check hes not turned . And if you do fee threatened most likely its fear of being robbed.

Walking up the road at night would you phone a pal or relative to chat to to make you feel safer? Someone making sure you get home okay?

Another example, I live near a beautiful country park and I love walking. I wont walk alone there during the day . Our local facebook page has loads of photos of the wildlife that walkers have taken, all the photographers are men, they feel safe .

I dont know what the answers are. It's as much a womens problem as a it is mens. Maybe if we all speak up now , even on the small inappropriate jokes or comments the girls and women of the future wont feel the same way we do now .

Really hope you don't regret posting this as it helps everyone understand better how some women feel in certain situations. As a father of a young daughter it's certainly something that will come into my thinking more as she grows up.

I can totally understand why women feel more under threat than men in a whole host of situations.

My original reply wasn't meant to downplay your experience so apologies if it came across like that.

[Jay]

Really hope you don't regret posting this as it helps everyone understand better how some women feel in certain situations. As a father of a young daughter it's certainly something that will come into my thinking more as she grows up.

I can totally understand why women feel more under threat than men in a whole host of situations.

My original reply wasn't meant to underplay your experience so apologies if it came across like that.


It's fine. Your reply was akin to the people who said when Black Lives Matter started that white people get arrested too. Of course they do but that's not the point.
I think what I'm trying to say and doing it badly is that we have to think differently all the time.

[CMurdoch]

Oh I know I'll regret this.

Your experience is so different though. If you see a male walking down the street on the opposite side even at 11 at night youd probably not give a thought, maybe be a bit more alert to him being there but generally a glance would be enough for you.
Most women would immediately see him as a potential threat, watch his behaviour, see if he slows down or looks across at her for the few seconds hes in her sight then look back to check hes not turned . And if you do fee threatened most likely its fear of being robbed.

Walking up the road at night would you phone a pal or relative to chat to to make you feel safer? Someone making sure you get home okay?

Another example, I live near a beautiful country park and I love walking. I wont walk alone there during the day . Our local facebook page has loads of photos of the wildlife that walkers have taken, all the photographers are men, they feel safe.

I dont know what the answers are. It's as much a womens problem as a it is mens. Maybe if we all speak up now , even on the small inappropriate jokes or comments the girls and women of the future wont feel the same way we do now .

I worked latterly in the fields of domestic violence and personal safety and I think it's good for men on this forum to read your thoughts and experiences.
The part of your post that I have highlighted is thought provoking and sad. I suspect it illustrates an issue that men won't have considered.

As regards safety at night both men and women should be aware of their surroundings, aware of people around them etc etc
The reason a lot of young men are assaulted is they have little awareness. They don't see danger in a situation until it's too late.

The awareness and assessments you describe making when you walk home after your back-shift are good and are helping to keep you safe.

I would be happy to advise and help anyone on here who has personal safety concerns.
There really is no need to be scared out there but there is a need to be aware and armed with a bit of knowledge most of which is available online.
The Suzy Lamplugh trust used to have good personal safety advice online and in leaflet form.

P.S. Here is a link. It looks good.
https://www.suzylamplugh.org/Pages/Category/personal-safety-advice

[McD]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/melissa-reddy-women-football-sexism-b1819534.html?fbclid=IwAR2f6bo4zUDOGJhTZpFvBZ7z_hv rIRG0er6yn7a7Cb5SgY1BkjLt5ulhtv8

a follow up piece by Melissa Reddy, with some of the experiences other female journalists have endured, and some of the inequalities between female and male journalists.


on a personal level, I’ve never carried out or even had the thought go through my mind to do any of these things described throughout the thread, it’s definitely made me more aware of what image/perception/possible threat I may be exhibiting to any woman, and being a bit more considered about things like distance between me and anyone walking around me etc.

I'm not a threat and never will be, but I now appreciate more how I could be perceived as a potential one, and some of the things I can do to alleviate any fear or concern

[Jay]

I worked latterly in the fields of domestic violence and personal safety and I think it's good for men on this forum to read your thoughts and experiences.
The part of your post that I have highlighted is thought provoking and sad. I suspect it illustrates an issue that men won't have considered.

As regards safety at night both men and women should be aware of their surroundings, aware of people around them etc etc
The reason a lot of young men are assaulted is they have little awareness. They don't see danger in a situation until it's too late.

The awareness and assessments you describe making when you walk home after your back-shift are good and are helping to keep you safe.

I would be happy to advise and help anyone on here who has personal safety concerns.
There really is no need to be scared out there but there is a need to be aware and armed with a bit of knowledge most of which is available online.
The Suzy Lamplugh trust used to have good personal safety advice online and in leaflet form.

P.S. Here is a link. It looks good.
https://www.suzylamplugh.org/Pages/Category/personal-safety-advice

I rarely genuinely feel scared whene I'm out but that's because I've grown up having to put the thought process in place of looking after myself. Not walking alone when possible, having someone on the end of the phone when I do have to, looking for taxi numbers, being alert when I'm out etc.

Another example, a couple of years ago in broad daylight I was walking down the road in my village. I became aware of a van slowing down as it passed me and glanced up to see the driver looking at me. About 100 yards down the road the driver pulled in and opened the back door of the van. I immediately crossed the road and changed route. In my opinion most guys wouldnt have even been aware of the van. The driver was probably totally innocent and dropping something off but there was something in that glance that alerted me. Wasnt a huge thing to me at the time, wouldnt mention it to anybody but that's because it's not that uncommon for a woman to just go nah this doesnt feel right.

I'm a woman in my 50s, hardly hot stuff so it's not jus tthe young ones affected . It's a way of life

I know men arent like this, I probably feel safer in a group at the football than I do anywhere but it only takes one bad encounter to make you feel like that and I dont know many women who couldnt tell a story or two.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drunken-duty-police-officer-25-23759044.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

I rarely genuinely feel scared whene I'm out but that's because I've grown up having to put the thought process in place of looking after myself. Not walking alone when possible, having someone on the end of the phone when I do have to, looking for taxi numbers, being alert when I'm out etc.

Another example, a couple of years ago in broad daylight I was walking down the road in my village. I became aware of a van slowing down as it passed me and glanced up to see the driver looking at me. About 100 yards down the road the driver pulled in and opened the back door of the van. I immediately crossed the road and changed route. In my opinion most guys wouldnt have even been aware of the van. The driver was probably totally innocent and dropping something off but there was something in that glance that alerted me. Wasnt a huge thing to me at the time, wouldnt mention it to anybody but that's because it's not that uncommon for a woman to just go nah this doesnt feel right.

I'm a woman in my 50s, hardly hot stuff so it's not jus tthe young ones affected . It's a way of life

I know men arent like this, I probably feel safer in a group at the football than I do anywhere but it only takes one bad encounter to make you feel like that and I dont know many women who couldnt tell a story or two.


Thanks for sharing that (and for sticking around).

:aok:


I can see that many women will feel much more nervous when in a vulnerable situation, e.g. out late at night or maybe somewhere secluded.

My wife often tells me about when she was a teenager, coming home late and a bit worse for wear after going to the disco. She mentions quite a lot that, on retrospect, she can't believe she was so unaware of how vulnerable that made her and that she definitely wouldn't have done that when she was a bit older.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/07/kasabian-frontman-tom-meighan-admits-assaulting-ex-fiancee-court/

Don’t have to look far to see what the problem is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/07/kasabian-frontman-tom-meighan-admits-assaulting-ex-fiancee-court/

Don’t have to look far to see what the problem is.

...


So, he got off partly because he does charity work?

Unbelievable!

[Hibrandenburg]

So, he got off partly because he does charity work?

Unbelievable!

I know it's not the UK but there have been many prominent cases in the US where young male students have either been let off lightly or the case didn't even get to court because having a rape charge would blight a promising young man's career.

Life can be a minefield for young women at parties and on nights out, not only because of the recent emergence of date rape drugs, but also for decades it's almost been socially acceptable to ply women with drinks as a means of lowering their inhibitions or even creepier to render them non compos mentis. Women have to be on their guard 24/7.

[Berwickhibby]

So, he got off partly because he does charity work?

Unbelievable!

As I said earlier on this thread, the punishments handed out for violence....especially domestic violence are pathetic...no deterrent. There are certain men who consider their wife/partner nothing but property or chattel

[Keith_M]

I know it's not the UK but there have been many prominent cases in the US where young male students have either been let off lightly or the case didn't even get to court because having a rape charge would blight a promising young man's career.

Life can be a minefield for young women at parties and on nights out, not only because of the recent emergence of date rape drugs, but also for decades it's almost been socially acceptable to ply women with drinks as a means of lowering their inhibitions or even creepier to render them non compos mentis. Women have to be on their guard 24/7.


That's disgusting.

Of course it should affect their future career, if they sexually abused somebody.



As I said earlier on this thread, the punishments handed out for violence....especially domestic violence are pathetic...no deterrent. There are certain men who consider their wife/partner nothing but property or chattel


Sad but true.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/07/kasabian-frontman-tom-meighan-admits-assaulting-ex-fiancee-court/

Don’t have to look far to see what the problem is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not (just) drink, if that's what you're meaning. Alcohol might be an enabler, or a trigger, but it's not the root cause. That will be much more complex.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not (just) drink, if that's what you're meaning. Alcohol might be an enabler, or a trigger, but it's not the root cause. That will be much more complex.

I was meaning the Judge giving someone a pass because they have done some charity work. Charity workers should still be subject to the laws of the land.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I was meaning the Judge giving someone a pass because they have done some charity work. Charity workers should still be subject to the laws of the land.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gotcha, ta.

All that does, as has been said many times before, is dissuade people (of all genders) from coming forward.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cop Curfew

Off-duty police officer, 25, who attacked 'terrified' woman walking home spared jail - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drunken-duty-police-officer-25-23759044?fbclid=IwAR0OJNTPCIDkQkhuyL_atYq5LJ0C8lpI w9hxx-6OrIzd9VR_O1KOITT0Tk4)


An off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.
PC Oliver Banfield, a probationary officer with West Midlands Police, grabbed Emma Homer on a dark street last July.

He used techniques taught during police training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock.
Miss Homer, 36, managed to flee from the scene as Banfield, who had been on a night out, branded her a “f ****** slag”.


the cant, the cop and the judge

[Berwickhibby]

Cop Curfew

Off-duty police officer, 25, who attacked 'terrified' woman walking home spared jail - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drunken-duty-police-officer-25-23759044?fbclid=IwAR0OJNTPCIDkQkhuyL_atYq5LJ0C8lpI w9hxx-6OrIzd9VR_O1KOITT0Tk4)


An off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.
PC Oliver Banfield, a probationary officer with West Midlands Police, grabbed Emma Homer on a dark street last July.

He used techniques taught during police training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock.
Miss Homer, 36, managed to flee from the scene as Banfield, who had been on a night out, branded her a “f ****** slag”.


the cant, the cop and the judge

Should be jailed .., no ifs or buts

[Andy74]

Cop Curfew

Off-duty police officer, 25, who attacked 'terrified' woman walking home spared jail - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drunken-duty-police-officer-25-23759044?fbclid=IwAR0OJNTPCIDkQkhuyL_atYq5LJ0C8lpI w9hxx-6OrIzd9VR_O1KOITT0Tk4)


An off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.
PC Oliver Banfield, a probationary officer with West Midlands Police, grabbed Emma Homer on a dark street last July.

He used techniques taught during police training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock.
Miss Homer, 36, managed to flee from the scene as Banfield, who had been on a night out, branded her a “f ****** slag”.


the cant, the cop and the judge

Hasn’t even been sacked yet. The footage is horrendous. Ridiculous.

[CMurdoch]

Hasn’t even been sacked yet. The footage is horrendous. Ridiculous.

His employer probably had to wait until he was convicted before emptying him.
The police are having a nightmare with probationary officers (this guy) and recently qualified officers (the alleged murderer). Very bad for public perception of the police.

Male police officers, politicians and even pop singers abusing women.
Predators among us I'm afraid.

[neil7908]

His employer probably had to wait until he was convicted before emptying him.
The police are having a nightmare with probationary officers (this guy) and recently qualified officers (the alleged murderer). Very bad for public perception of the police.

Male police officers, politicians and even pop singers abusing women.
Predators among us I'm afraid.

Many were already wary and distrustful of the police but given some of the stories in the last few months it's clear they have some serious issues to address.

Speaking to my girlfriend, she certainly doesn't feel safe or reassured by the police, quite the opposite now in fact.

[Speedy]

Should be jailed .., no ifs or buts

It looks like he is trying to arrest her for something.

Very odd!

[Itsnoteasy]

Oh I know I'll regret this.

Your experience is so different though. If you see a male walking down the street on the opposite side even at 11 at night youd probably not give a thought, maybe be a bit more alert to him being there but generally a glance would be enough for you.
Most women would immediately see him as a potential threat, watch his behaviour, see if he slows down or looks across at her for the few seconds hes in her sight then look back to check hes not turned . And if you do fee threatened most likely its fear of being robbed.

Walking up the road at night would you phone a pal or relative to chat to to make you feel safer? Someone making sure you get home okay?

Another example, I live near a beautiful country park and I love walking. I wont walk alone there during the day . Our local facebook page has loads of photos of the wildlife that walkers have taken, all the photographers are men, they feel safe .

I dont know what the answers are. It's as much a womens problem as a it is mens. Maybe if we all speak up now , even on the small inappropriate jokes or comments the girls and women of the future wont feel the same way we do now .

Nothing to regret. All valid points you are making.

It always makes me wonder how these ars3hol3s would feel/react if this was happening to their own mum.

[Keith_M]

Many were already wary and distrustful of the police but given some of the stories in the last few months it's clear they have some serious issues to address.

Speaking to my girlfriend, she certainly doesn't feel safe or reassured by the police, quite the opposite now in fact.


I understand how some people might feel like that, especially given the current level of media attention, but there are tens of thousands of police in the UK and a few really bad ones isn't a true reflection on the police service as a whole.

My uncle was in the police (Military then L&B) for most of his adult life and had very high moral standards and the greatest respect for women. I'm sure the vast majority of our police service are the same.

[Sir David Gray]

I understand how some people might feel like that, especially given the current level of media attention, but there are tens of thousands of police in the UK and a few really bad ones isn't a true reflection on the police service as a whole.

My uncle was in the police (Military then L&B) for most of his adult life and had very high moral standards and the greatest respect for women. I'm sure the vast majority of our police service are the same.

Definitely. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

I understand how some people might feel like that, especially given the current level of media attention, but there are tens of thousands of police in the UK and a few really bad ones isn't a true reflection on the police service as a whole.

My uncle was in the police (Military then L&B) for most of his adult life and had very high moral standards and the greatest respect for women. I'm sure the vast majority of our police service are the same.

I agree with this. Pointing fingers at the police is a convenient way of finding an easy target so we don’t have to think about everybody making positive changes.

[Keith_M]

I agree with this. Pointing fingers at the police is a convenient way of finding an easy target so we don’t have to think about everybody making positive changes.


:aok:

[CMurdoch]

Many were already wary and distrustful of the police but given some of the stories in the last few months it's clear they have some serious issues to address.

Speaking to my girlfriend, she certainly doesn't feel safe or reassured by the police, quite the opposite now in fact.

Is your girlfriend going to get the Vaccine if it is AZ?

or to plagiarise a Chris Rock joke, when I go to the money machine at night cops are the last folk i am worried about assaulting or robbing me.

[neil7908]

Is your girlfriend going to get the Vaccine if it is AZ?

or to plagiarise a Chris Rock joke, when I go to the money machine at night cops are the last folk i am worried about assaulting or robbing me.

She's not worried about them robbing her though. She's worried about them assaulting or sexually assaulting her, or if she is a victim of a crime, being treated like ****.

Police are definitely part of the problem.

And I'm not really sure what vaccination has to do with anything?

[neil7908]

I agree with this. Pointing fingers at the police is a convenient way of finding an easy target so we don’t have to think about everybody making positive changes.

We all have to make changes. But if the police don't have the trust of women, and the wider population, then we are going to continue having serious problems.

And I don't personally believe its just a few bad apples.

[Keith_M]

We all have to make changes. But if the police don't have the trust of women, and the wider population, then we are going to continue having serious problems.

And I don't personally believe its just a few bad apples.



So out of the 140,000 police in Scotland, England and Wales, how many do you think are a danger to women?

[neil7908]

So out of the 140,000 police in Scotland, England and Wales, how many do you think are a danger to women?

What a question. A thousand, 10 thousand, 100 thousand maybe. Who knows?

I do believe many police forces are institutionally sexist though. It wasn't too long ago the Met was branded institutionally racist so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest there are issues here. And I'm not just talking about Sarah Everard. I accept that level of danger is incredibly rare, in police or otherwise.

But there are plenty of stories around about general attitudes towards women. Maybe that's no worse than the rest of the population. But they don't get to arrest people. And this is based on my partners dealings with police.

Surely if we are suggesting there is a need for general positive change, that would also need to include the police? Why are they excluded from this?

[cabbageandribs1875]

i see Erdogan is withdrawing Turkey from a treaty to protect womans rights

[CMurdoch]

She's not worried about them robbing her though. She's worried about them assaulting or sexually assaulting her, or if she is a victim of a crime, being treated like ****.

Police are definitely part of the problem.

And I'm not really sure what vaccination has to do with anything?

What I was getting at is that the AZ vaccination carries some risk of blood clots but that isn't a good reason not to use it.

There are 150,000 cops in the UK with up to 30 years service each.
You are basing your assessment of all those people on two admittedly appalling crimes that have been committed whilst not at work by 2 men employed as Police officers for less than 4 years between them and from that your girlfriend is "worried about them assaulting or sexually assaulting her, or if she is a victim of a crime, being treated like ****."
That is some pretty messed up thinking.

[neil7908]

What I was getting at is that the AZ vaccination carries some risk of blood clots but that isn't a good reason not to use it.

There are 150,000 cops in the UK with up to 30 years service each.
You are basing your assessment of all those people on two admittedly appalling crimes that have been committed whilst not at work by 2 men employed as Police officers for less than 4 years between them and from that your girlfriend is "worried about them assaulting or sexually assaulting her, or if she is a victim of a crime, being treated like ****."
That is some pretty messed up thinking.

I don't think you've read my posts carefully. The vaccine stuff is still bizarre given that it's been made clear by a number of medical bodies that there is no danger RE bloodclots (from the BBC" There is no evidence the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine causes blood clots, say UK and EU regulators after a "thorough and careful review".)

At no point have I ever said I or my partner are basing this assessment on two cases. You've also ignored the other part at the end of my post where I've referenced reporting a crime and the police reaction. Maybe that gives you hint?

But if you read anything from women who have reported being sexually assaulted to the police then I'm keen to hear your thoughts on that. Do you think they've been treated completely fairly and supported well?

There's a good idea of what I'm referring to in the article below and a whole load more than 2 cases;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/16/institutional-misogyny-erodes-womens-trust-in-uk-police

I think I'm getting too close to personal issues and experiences here so leaving it at that.

[Keith_M]

What a question. A thousand, 10 thousand, 100 thousand maybe. Who knows?

I do believe many police forces are institutionally sexist though. It wasn't too long ago the Met was branded institutionally racist so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest there are issues here. And I'm not just talking about Sarah Everard. I accept that level of danger is incredibly rare, in police or otherwise.

But there are plenty of stories around about general attitudes towards women. Maybe that's no worse than the rest of the population. But they don't get to arrest people. And this is based on my partners dealings with police.

Surely if we are suggesting there is a need for general positive change, that would also need to include the police? Why are they excluded from this?




I did actually mention, in my first response, that it was understandable that some women could feel that way, especially in regard to the constant barrage of media coverage of any crimes by serving officers.

I was trying to give a sense of perspective, in regards to having literally no confidence in the police.



It's important to read people's comments all the way through before responding to only part of it, out of context, and maybe understand the spirit and intent of the comment.

[CMurdoch]

I don't think you've read my posts carefully. The vaccine stuff is still bizarre given that it's been made clear by a number of medical bodies that there is no danger RE bloodclots (from the BBC" There is no evidence the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine causes blood clots, say UK and EU regulators after a "thorough and careful review".)

At no point have I ever said I or my partner are basing this assessment on two cases. You've also ignored the other part at the end of my post where I've referenced reporting a crime and the police reaction. Maybe that gives you hint?

But if you read anything from women who have reported being sexually assaulted to the police then I'm keen to hear your thoughts on that. Do you think they've been treated completely fairly and supported well?

There's a good idea of what I'm referring to in the article below and a whole load more than 2 cases;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/16/institutional-misogyny-erodes-womens-trust-in-uk-police

I think I'm getting too close to personal issues and experiences here so leaving it at that.

Every case is different and every victim will have a different perception of their experience with the Police.
Your girlfriends experience obviously hasn't been positive and didn't meet her expectations.
However, without knowing the specifics of the case it is impossible to assess the rights and wrongs.

The recent case of Alex Salmond is a good example of how the legal system doesn't work for women.
Despite nine women reporting being sexually assaulted by him there was insufficient evidence to convict him and before the case went to court the legal advice was not to proceed because there was insufficient evidence to convict. However, had it not gone to court the inference would have been that it wasn't taken to court because of the status of the accused. A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
All of that sends a very negative message to women and could be perceived by them as not being believed and if you can't get a conviction with 9 accusers why bother.

Accordingly my real concerns in getting my wife or daughter to report a serious sexual offence to the Police would be about the court case perhaps 18 months later which I suspect for many will be as traumatic as the incident itself. Worry before and during the case and the defence doing everything in their power to discredit, minimise and disprove the victims evidence and all in the presence of the accused.

As for the Guardian article you highlighted, one of the quotes is “Police don’t come down from another planet, they come from society,”
That's a good point, Police officers are drawn from society with all it's faults, values, culture etc
The other quote I agreed with was from a female officer "she put some of the problems down to the high concentration of men. “There’s such bravado,” she said, describing a “hero complex”. In her experience, male officers will often make sexualised comments about women, both that they work with and on the street"
That rings true.
Again this goes back to drawing your officers from society and probably mirrors the immature behaviour of young unmarried men in our society. We see it in most work places, behind the scenes and on work nights out.
However, young cops are not the ones in specialist Domestic Abuse Investigation Units etc and for good reason.

We generally expect an awful lot of our street cops, many of them very young.
We expect them to go and deal with a guy with a knife outside our house and then attend a domestic abuse incident, followed by a cot death. The following day we expect them to attend a vehicular accident, a housebreaking, a robbery, find our lost dog. The next day it's find our kids, a hanging, a fight etc etc.
On and on it goes for them, day, month and year after year whilst all the while people point their fingers at them for the failings of the few.

Even if you search an occupation like a Medical Doctor you will come up with horrible crimes against women committed by male Doctors. Try it with any occupation you can think off. The only thing the culprits have in common is that they are men so using your logic you wouldn't trust any man. That makes more sense that not trusting men working in a specific occupation

IMO the issue of misogyny in our society as it stands today is fed by many things be it the ready availability of all types of porn, misogyny and violence in film, music, social media, cavemen fathers etc.
These factors all distort, normalise and inform misogynistic attitudes and violent behaviour towards women and I think until you address this it will remain prevalent in our society.
However, as ever society will continue to examine and attribute blame over the results of misogyny and violence towards women rather than dealing with the causes and as a result the rate of change will be painfully slow.

[Berwickhibby]

Every case is different and every victim will have a different perception of their experience with the Police.
Your girlfriends experience obviously hasn't been positive and didn't meet her expectations.
However, without knowing the specifics of the case it is impossible to assess the rights and wrongs.

The recent case of Alex Salmond is a good example of how the legal system doesn't work for women.
Despite nine women reporting being sexually assaulted by him there was insufficient evidence to convict him and before the case went to court the legal advice was not to proceed because there was insufficient evidence to convict. However, had it not gone to court the inference would have been that it wasn't taken to court because of the status of the accused. A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
All of that sends a very negative message to women and could be perceived by them as not being believed and if you can't get a conviction with 9 accusers why bother.

Accordingly my real concerns in getting my wife or daughter to report a serious sexual offence to the Police would be about the court case perhaps 18 months later which I suspect for many will be as traumatic as the incident itself. Worry before and during the case and the defence doing everything in their power to discredit, minimise and disprove the victims evidence and all in the presence of the accused.

As for the Guardian article you highlighted, one of the quotes is “Police don’t come down from another planet, they come from society,”
That's a good point, Police officers are drawn from society with all it's faults, values, culture etc
The other quote I agreed with was from a female officer "she put some of the problems down to the high concentration of men. “There’s such bravado,” she said, describing a “hero complex”. In her experience, male officers will often make sexualised comments about women, both that they work with and on the street"
That rings true.
Again this goes back to drawing your officers from society and probably mirrors the immature behaviour of young unmarried men in our society. We see it in most work places, behind the scenes and on work nights out.
However, young cops are not the ones in specialist Domestic Abuse Investigation Units etc and for good reason.

We generally expect an awful lot of our street cops, many of them very young.
We expect them to go and deal with a guy with a knife outside our house and then attend a domestic abuse incident, followed by a cot death. The following day we expect them to attend a vehicular accident, a housebreaking, a robbery, find our lost dog. The next day it's find our kids, a hanging, a fight etc etc.
On and on it goes for them, day, month and year after year whilst all the while people point their fingers at them for the failings of the few.

Even if you search an occupation like a Medical Doctor you will come up with horrible crimes against women committed by male Doctors. Try it with any occupation you can think off. The only thing the culprits have in common is that they are men so using your logic you wouldn't trust any man. That makes more sense that not trusting men working in a specific occupation

IMO the issue of misogyny in our society as it stands today is fed by many things be it the ready availability of all types of porn, misogyny and violence in film, music, social media, cavemen fathers etc.
These factors all distort, normalise and inform misogynistic attitudes and violent behaviour towards women and I think until you address this it will remain prevalent in our society.
However, as ever we will continue to examine and attribute blame over the results of misogyny and violence towards women rather than dealing with the causes and as a result the rate of improvement will be painfully slow.









Mr Murdoch, how many times have I warned you about posting sensible, well balanced comments.... interview without coffee if it continues :na na::na na:

[CMurdoch]

Mr Murdoch, how many times have I warned you about posting sensible, well balanced comments.... interview without coffee if it continues :na na::na na:

The football forum is an easier arena!
I should probably get back there to demand that Joe Newell's crap shooting improves.
Right now it's time to take the dog for his afternoon walk in the course of which I will look down longingly on our stadium from Arthurs Seat.

[Stick]

Every case is different and every victim will have a different perception of their experience with the Police.
Your girlfriends experience obviously hasn't been positive and didn't meet her expectations.
However, without knowing the specifics of the case it is impossible to assess the rights and wrongs.

The recent case of Alex Salmond is a good example of how the legal system doesn't work for women.
Despite nine women reporting being sexually assaulted by him there was insufficient evidence to convict him and before the case went to court the legal advice was not to proceed because there was insufficient evidence to convict. However, had it not gone to court the inference would have been that it wasn't taken to court because of the status of the accused. A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
All of that sends a very negative message to women and could be perceived by them as not being believed and if you can't get a conviction with 9 accusers why bother.

Accordingly my real concerns in getting my wife or daughter to report a serious sexual offence to the Police would be about the court case perhaps 18 months later which I suspect for many will be as traumatic as the incident itself. Worry before and during the case and the defence doing everything in their power to discredit, minimise and disprove the victims evidence and all in the presence of the accused.

As for the Guardian article you highlighted, one of the quotes is “Police don’t come down from another planet, they come from society,”
That's a good point, Police officers are drawn from society with all it's faults, values, culture etc
The other quote I agreed with was from a female officer "she put some of the problems down to the high concentration of men. “There’s such bravado,” she said, describing a “hero complex”. In her experience, male officers will often make sexualised comments about women, both that they work with and on the street"
That rings true.
Again this goes back to drawing your officers from society and probably mirrors the immature behaviour of young unmarried men in our society. We see it in most work places, behind the scenes and on work nights out.
However, young cops are not the ones in specialist Domestic Abuse Investigation Units etc and for good reason.

We generally expect an awful lot of our street cops, many of them very young.
We expect them to go and deal with a guy with a knife outside our house and then attend a domestic abuse incident, followed by a cot death. The following day we expect them to attend a vehicular accident, a housebreaking, a robbery, find our lost dog. The next day it's find our kids, a hanging, a fight etc etc.
On and on it goes for them, day, month and year after year whilst all the while people point their fingers at them for the failings of the few.

Even if you search an occupation like a Medical Doctor you will come up with horrible crimes against women committed by male Doctors. Try it with any occupation you can think off. The only thing the culprits have in common is that they are men so using your logic you wouldn't trust any man. That makes more sense that not trusting men working in a specific occupation

IMO the issue of misogyny in our society as it stands today is fed by many things be it the ready availability of all types of porn, misogyny and violence in film, music, social media, cavemen fathers etc.
These factors all distort, normalise and inform misogynistic attitudes and violent behaviour towards women and I think until you address this it will remain prevalent in our society.
However, as ever society will continue to examine and attribute blame over the results of misogyny and violence towards women rather than dealing with the causes and as a result the rate of change will be painfully slow.









Perhaps it’s just a case of you picking the wrong example, but sorry the part about the system doesn’t work for women is wrong in this case. The women were given their days in court, they all gave evidence, as did numerous other, and the jury, (the majority of whom were women), found Salmond not guilty on all charges apart for one which was not proven.

[CMurdoch]

Perhaps it’s just a case of you picking the wrong example, but sorry the part about the system doesn’t work for women is wrong in this case. The women were given their days in court, they all gave evidence, as did numerous other, and the jury, (the majority of whom were women), found Salmond not guilty on all charges apart for one which was not proven.

My perception about the case was that the prosecution was unable to sufficiently link the evidence of individual witnesses to individual events to prove a course of criminal conduct by Salmond.

However, what I was getting at in my post was the vast majority of women's perception of the court case will be different.
They have seen 9 women make allegations of sexual assault and attempted rape against a rich influential man and at the conclusion of the court case, 8 being told, in effect, that their allegations didn't happen/weren't criminal and the other being told that her allegations could not be proved.
Accordingly many women's perception and confidence in the court and justice system for dealing with sex crimes committed by men against women has been negatively impacted.

[wookie70]

Every case is different and every victim will have a different perception of their experience with the Police.
Your girlfriends experience obviously hasn't been positive and didn't meet her expectations.
However, without knowing the specifics of the case it is impossible to assess the rights and wrongs.

The recent case of Alex Salmond is a good example of how the legal system doesn't work for women.
Despite nine women reporting being sexually assaulted by him there was insufficient evidence to convict him and before the case went to court the legal advice was not to proceed because there was insufficient evidence to convict. However, had it not gone to court the inference would have been that it wasn't taken to court because of the status of the accused. A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
All of that sends a very negative message to women and could be perceived by them as not being believed and if you can't get a conviction with 9 accusers why bother.

Accordingly my real concerns in getting my wife or daughter to report a serious sexual offence to the Police would be about the court case perhaps 18 months later which I suspect for many will be as traumatic as the incident itself. Worry before and during the case and the defence doing everything in their power to discredit, minimise and disprove the victims evidence and all in the presence of the accused.

As for the Guardian article you highlighted, one of the quotes is “Police don’t come down from another planet, they come from society,”
That's a good point, Police officers are drawn from society with all it's faults, values, culture etc
The other quote I agreed with was from a female officer "she put some of the problems down to the high concentration of men. “There’s such bravado,” she said, describing a “hero complex”. In her experience, male officers will often make sexualised comments about women, both that they work with and on the street"
That rings true.
Again this goes back to drawing your officers from society and probably mirrors the immature behaviour of young unmarried men in our society. We see it in most work places, behind the scenes and on work nights out.
However, young cops are not the ones in specialist Domestic Abuse Investigation Units etc and for good reason.

We generally expect an awful lot of our street cops, many of them very young.
We expect them to go and deal with a guy with a knife outside our house and then attend a domestic abuse incident, followed by a cot death. The following day we expect them to attend a vehicular accident, a housebreaking, a robbery, find our lost dog. The next day it's find our kids, a hanging, a fight etc etc.
On and on it goes for them, day, month and year after year whilst all the while people point their fingers at them for the failings of the few.

Even if you search an occupation like a Medical Doctor you will come up with horrible crimes against women committed by male Doctors. Try it with any occupation you can think off. The only thing the culprits have in common is that they are men so using your logic you wouldn't trust any man. That makes more sense that not trusting men working in a specific occupation

IMO the issue of misogyny in our society as it stands today is fed by many things be it the ready availability of all types of porn, misogyny and violence in film, music, social media, cavemen fathers etc.
These factors all distort, normalise and inform misogynistic attitudes and violent behaviour towards women and I think until you address this it will remain prevalent in our society.
However, as ever society will continue to examine and attribute blame over the results of misogyny and violence towards women rather than dealing with the causes and as a result the rate of change will be painfully slow.




Police may come from society but there is a recruitment process and also a long training period where presumably those who are disrespectful to women or have other traits that would be an issue would be identified. You would also hope female staff and officers would make sure male colleagues who were disrespectful or worse would report that but I doubt that happens. I would expect and want the Police to be the best of society and imo they are far from it.

There are just far too many examples from Hillsborough to Miners strikes to impregnating those you were in relationships while undercover etc, etc. I would hope officers had the moral backbone to know what is happening is wrong and act. Instead most of the scandals are due to officers closing ranks and protecting each other rather than victims and justice. It is set up as them and us when push come to shove so trust is always going to be a problem.

The part about hero complex etc rings true to me. You sometimes get the feeling it is more about trying to flex muscles than about law and order or worse still it is a game like the motorway cops snooker game. I really want the Police to be better but Government seem intent to use them even more as State Stormtroopers and collectively at least I think the Police quite enjoy that

[Jones28]

i see Erdogan is withdrawing Turkey from a treaty to protect womans rights

Not so much a jump back in time as a double backflip.

[Keith_M]

I see there's been a 'demo' in Bristol where, once again, police officers have been attacked.









p.s. Apologies if this isn't the appropriate thread to post this. I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread.

[Just Alf]

I see there's been a 'demo' in Bristol where, once again, police officers have been attacked.
.

It's crazy, especially as the reason for the demo being there in the 1st place was to protest against a parliamentary bill that legislates against some forms of peaceful protest (as presumably they can sometimes get out of hand) ..... What a way to win people over to your side of the argument!. It's absolutely perfect for the government to now have a great chance in passing the bill without much argument.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with this. Pointing fingers at the police is a convenient way of finding an easy target so we don’t have to think about everybody making positive changes.

:agree: The police have to uphold the law, regardless whether they believe in those laws or not. I'm pretty sure many of them are extremely unhappy with this particular tory government, so much so that when I saw this attached photo, I wasn't sure whether they were putting up the banner or taking it down :wink:

[wookie70]

A view from a protester - http://afed.org.uk/what-actually-happened-in-bristol-and-how-a-narrative-is-built/?fbclid=IwAR02JfGLDsmtu4atbOUWzP3XoRLSCf2kQSjyzyCV x96SDd0psXxlVAkWD7g

[Berwickhibby]

A view from a protester - http://afed.org.uk/what-actually-happened-in-bristol-and-how-a-narrative-is-built/?fbclid=IwAR02JfGLDsmtu4atbOUWzP3XoRLSCf2kQSjyzyCV x96SDd0psXxlVAkWD7g

What a crock of utter S hite

[wookie70]

What a crock of utter S hite

The problem is who to believe. The MSM report nearly everything with bias and they often deliberately misreport and omit parts of stories to change context. There can be no excuse for the violence but who started it, I know who was better armed and trained and equipped with Dogs and Horses. I haven't seen any footage of how it started only pictures of rioters and videos of burning vans etc. You only have to look at the way the Battle of Orgreave was reported by the BBC(who were far better then) to know that the truth isn't always as it seems.

The local rag certainly makes it sound like it was peaceful until the riot cops arrived.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gallery/how-kill-bill-protest-became-5211581

[CMurdoch]

A view from a protester - http://afed.org.uk/what-actually-happened-in-bristol-and-how-a-narrative-is-built/?fbclid=IwAR02JfGLDsmtu4atbOUWzP3XoRLSCf2kQSjyzyCV x96SDd0psXxlVAkWD7g

The Anarchist Federation is hardly a credible source.

[Berwickhibby]

The problem is who to believe. The MSM report nearly everything with bias and they often deliberately misreport and omit parts of stories to change context. There can be no excuse for the violence but who started it, I know who was better armed and trained and equipped with Dogs and Horses. I haven't seen any footage of how it started only pictures of rioters and videos of burning vans etc. You only have to look at the way the Battle of Orgreave was reported by the BBC(who were far better then) to know that the truth isn't always as it seems.

The local rag certainly makes it sound like it was peaceful until the riot cops arrived.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gallery/how-kill-bill-protest-became-5211581

Well why was it only police that were injured including broken bones, they showed restraint under severe provocation. I think the news today would have looked different had the police used offensive tactics and did a horse charge followed by dogs and officers using batons.

[wookie70]

Well why was it only police that were injured including broken bones, they showed restraint under severe provocation. I think the news today would have looked different had the police used offensive tactics and did a horse charge followed by dogs and officers using batons. Protestor being hurt wouldn't fit that narrative and as it wasn't an organised event how would the information be gathered.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/51504/Pepper+spray%2C+dogs%2C+batons+and+horses+police+w ere+the+real+thugs+in+Bristol

[Berwickhibby]

Protestor being hurt wouldn't fit that narrative and as it wasn't an organised event how would the information be gathered.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/51504/Pepper+spray%2C+dogs%2C+batons+and+horses+police+w ere+the+real+thugs+in+Bristol

Anarchist Federation and Socialist Worker quality literature 🤣🤣🤣 you will be posting links from Wings over Bath next 😂😂😂

[CMurdoch]

Protestor being hurt wouldn't fit that narrative and as it wasn't an organised event how would the information be gathered.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/51504/Pepper+spray%2C+dogs%2C+batons+and+horses+police+w ere+the+real+thugs+in+Bristol

Sadie Robinson who wrote that article has a blatant anti establishment agenda.
I have just read other articles she has written and they are just unnuaced raves.
If this is the sort of thing you read it would explain your paranoia and unbalanced attitude towards the Police.
This is slightly better than some of her other pieces but the hate and bias still shines through.
I've never read The Socialist Worker before and I expected a much better standard of journalism than I found and was frankly shocked by the poor standard of Robinsons writing which makes thicko journalists at tabloid newspapers look competent. Her writing style has much in common with the angry writings of extreme right wing fascists.

P.S. The Battle Of Orgreave that you quoted was an incident from a bygone era almost 40 years ago such that the Cops, BBC Journalists and Miners involved will have long since retired and the organisations they represented and their working practices will have changed beyond recognition. Compare the present Hibernian FC to the Hibernian FC of 1984 if you don't believe me.

[wookie70]

Sarah Robinson who wrote that article always has an anti establishment agenda.
I just read other articles she has written and they are just raves.
This is slightly better than some of other pieces but the hate and bias still shines through.
I've never read The Socialist Worker before and I would have expected much better journalism but i am shocked by her standard of Robinsons writing which makes thicko journalists at tabloid newspapers look competent and is more akin to right wing thicko's.

According to the article her name is Sadie. I'm not familiar with her work and it isn't a publication I usually read but she is no more anti-establishment I would argue than the Papers and News Broadcasters are pro-establishment. The hate and bias shines through in the pro establishment news pieces too. The local rag appears to show that the protest was peaceful, as it should have been, before the riot cops arrived. Did they wade in, not exactly unheard of or did they have to defend themselves. Were they hoping to provoke a flight response but got a fight one. Either way it is clear the Police need a rethink about how to handle protests, this wasn't a particularly large protest.

When I read articles I look for quotes, particularly from people that were there. I appreciate at events there are agendas and angles but that goes for both sides and ther are sides(police and demonstrators or counter protestors) when demos are on. I don't condone violence but I can certainly understand tensions running high with the Bill being such a crass breach of our freedoms. I've yet to see footage of when the violence started, on either side, despite all the cameras and media present. How it started is what I am most interested in and I guess the truth will be somewhere between the right wing media and the left wing that I have provided links for. Both have agendas and both will tell their side of the story.

[wookie70]

Anarchist Federation and Socialist Worker quality literature 🤣🤣🤣 you will be posting links from Wings over Bath next 😂😂😂

And you trust sources such as the BBC or Telegraph or Mail etc. Demonstrators were hurt too according to this article (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/22/a-game-of-two-halves-how-bristol-protest-went-from-calm-to-mayhem). I'd call the Guardian a fairly central publication these days. That is surely of relevance to the story without proving anything, but it doesn't find its way into most articles. Police Officers being hurt doesn't prove blame either. I'm still none the wiser who the aggressors were.

And from that article quotes from protestors

Another student, 19, who asked for his name not be used, was caught up in the violence. “I now know how terrifying it is to be rushed at by riot police swinging batons, charged at by horses, threatened with dogs,” he said. “No wonder people fought back against the police.”

A Bristol entrepreneur in his 40s said he was bitten by a police dog. He tried to remind a police officer that the right to protest was “ingrained into our democracy for 800 years and was a central tenet of the way it operates”, but alleges the officer simply drew his baton and threatened him.

[lapsedhibee]

P.S. The Battle Of Orgreave that you quoted was an incident from a bygone era almost 40 years ago such that the Cops, BBC Journalists and Miners involved will have long since retired and the organisations they represented and their working practices will have changed beyond recognition. Compare the present Hibernian FC to the Hibernian FC of 1984 if you don't believe me.

If you're suggesting there that the BBC does not currently have a pro-establishment bias, you're on pretty shaky ground.

[Colr]

According to the article her name is Sadie. I'm not familiar with her work and it isn't a publication I usually read but she is no more anti-establishment I would argue than the Papers and News Broadcasters are pro-establishment. The hate and bias shines through in the pro establishment news pieces too. The local rag appears to show that the protest was peaceful, as it should have been, before the riot cops arrived. Did they wade in, not exactly unheard of or did they have to defend themselves. Were they hoping to provoke a flight response but got a fight one. Either way it is clear the Police need a rethink about how to handle protests, this wasn't a particularly large protest.

When I read articles I look for quotes, particularly from people that were there. I appreciate at events there are agendas and angles but that goes for both sides and ther are sides(police and demonstrators or counter protestors) when demos are on. I don't condone violence but I can certainly understand tensions running high with the Bill being such a crass breach of our freedoms. I've yet to see footage of when the violence started, on either side, despite all the cameras and media present. How it started is what I am most interested in and I guess the truth will be somewhere between the right wing media and the left wing that I have provided links for. Both have agendas and both will tell their side of the story.

I wonder, after these scenes and the ones at Clapham, how many reasonable, concerned people would turn up at a demonstration against the Bill now. I would have second thoughts even though I think it is a disgrace.

[hibsbollah]

Sadie Robinson who wrote that article has a blatant anti establishment agenda.
I have just read other articles she has written and they are just unnuaced raves.
If this is the sort of thing you read it would explain your paranoia and unbalanced attitude towards the Police.
This is slightly better than some of her other pieces but the hate and bias still shines through.
I've never read The Socialist Worker before and I expected a much better standard of journalism than I found and was frankly shocked by the poor standard of Robinsons writing which makes thicko journalists at tabloid newspapers look competent. Her writing style has much in common with the angry writings of extreme right wing fascists.

P.S. The Battle Of Orgreave that you quoted was an incident from a bygone era almost 40 years ago such that the Cops, BBC Journalists and Miners involved will have long since retired and the organisations they represented and their working practices will have changed beyond recognition. Compare the present Hibernian FC to the Hibernian FC of 1984 if you don't believe me.

The relevance of Orgreave isn’t just what happened that day but on how it was reported. I remember watching the BBC report, even though my sympathy was with the miners you switched off the TV thinking they were hellbent on riot. Because even as a left winger you still had a degree of trust in the bbc in those days. The journalists knew exactly what went down that day (military style cavalry charge against civilians probably not seen since the Boer war times) and the footage and the description were 100% lies. Tory Cabinet-Home Office-Cops-Journalists, the links continued through Hillsborough and further on. I wouldn’t trust how any protest is reported on these days without a lot of corroboration.

[CMurdoch]

The relevance of Orgreave isn’t just what happened that day but on how it was reported. I remember watching the BBC report, even though my sympathy was with the miners you switched off the TV thinking they were hellbent on riot. Because even as a left winger you still had a degree of trust in the bbc in those days. The journalists knew exactly what went down that day (military style cavalry charge against civilians probably not seen since the Boer war times) and the footage and the description were 100% lies. Tory Cabinet-Home Office-Cops-Journalists, the links continued through Hillsborough and further on. I wouldn’t trust how any protest is reported on these days without a lot of corroboration.

I agree, you always have to read between the lines with any report. Look for evidence if it is available.

Reading between the lines in the Bristol Live report that Wookie quoted involved me reading it. I then looked at the mass of photographs that came with it and that provided the information I needed to reach my conclusion.

What I found was photographs of burning police vehicles, Police vehicles vandalised with masses of graffiti sprayed on them, a guy climbing on a Police van, a guy kicking in a window of the Police station and Police shields vandalised with spray paint. The red spray paint image of a heart seen on a Police shields is telling. It indicates a tolerance on the Police side in that the protester has done that up close that whilst the cop has stood there and let it happen rather than risk conflict. It also shows an arrogance in the protester to think that was acceptable.

The photographs and report together led me to conclude that there was a peaceful protest which was as ever ilfiltrated by *****. I haven't examined the Clapham Common protest but suspect it was highjacked as well.

It appears almost impossible now to have a protest without it being infiltrated and hijacked by a combination of anarchists and folk who want to use it as a cover to riot and get in the faces of the Police. It is a real shame for folk who want to peacefully protest about something they don't agree with and many will now conclude that it is destroying their cause rather than enhancing it as we have seen this week.

[hibsbollah]

I agree, you always have to read between the lines with any report. Look for evidence if it is available.

Reading between the lines in the Bristol live report that Wookie quoted involved me reading it.
I then looked at the mass of photographs that came with it and that provided the information I needed to reach my conclusion.
What I found was photographs of burning police vehicles, Police vehicles vandalised with masses of graffiti sprayed on them, a guy climbing on a Police van, a guy kicking in a window of the Police station and Police shields vandalised with spray paint. The red spray paint image of a heart seen on a Police shields is telling. It indicates a tolerance on the Police side in that the protester has done that up close that whilst the cop has stood there and let it happen rather than risk conflict. It also shows an arrogance in the protester to think that was acceptable.

The photographs and report together led me to conclude that there was a peaceful protest which was as ever ilfiltrated by *****. I haven't examined the Clapham Common protest but suspect it was highjacked as well.

It appears almost impossible now to have a protest without it being infiltrated and hijacked by a combination of anarchists and folk who want to use it as a cover to riot and get in the faces of the Police. It is a real shame for folk who want to peacefully protest about something they don't agree with and many will conclude that it is destroying their cause rather than enhancing it as we have seen this week.

I saw footage of police vans being driven at the crowd in Bristol. It depends on context and what is shown in what order sometimes. Like I say, it’s just impossible to know for sure.

It definitely IS possible to protest peacefully without ‘anarchists hijacking it, many people on this site can give you eye witness reports of the Edinburgh BLM protests which were impeccable, to the point where police were handing out water bottles, everyone distanced etc.

[CMurdoch]

I saw footage of police vans being driven at the crowd in Bristol. It depends on context and what is shown in what order sometimes. Like I say, it’s just impossible to know for sure.

It definitely IS possible to protest peacefully without ‘anarchists hijacking it, many people on this site can give you eye witness reports of the Edinburgh BLM protests which were impeccable, to the point where police were handing out water bottles, everyone distanced etc.

Which is how it should be.

[Berwickhibby]

I saw footage of police vans being driven at the crowd in Bristol. It depends on context and what is shown in what order sometimes. Like I say, it’s just impossible to know for sure.

It definitely IS possible to protest peacefully without ‘anarchists hijacking it, many people on this site can give you eye witness reports of the Edinburgh BLM protests which were impeccable, to the point where police were handing out water bottles, everyone distanced etc.

Having been involved in enough marches and protests in London and Newcastle, the police perfect march is no confrontation and no arrests. Some people obviously think the police go looking for trouble and start assaulting people for no reason.

[wookie70]

Having been involved in enough marches and protests in London and Newcastle, the police perfect march is no confrontation and no arrests. Some people obviously think the police go looking for trouble and start assaulting people for no reason.

And there is why we shouldn't trust the media and why I don't trust the police. The establishment, and that includes the press and Police, protects itself. - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/25/police-retract-claims-that-officers-suffered-broken-bones-at-bristol-protest

[Keith_M]

And there is why we shouldn't trust the media and why I don't trust the police. The establishment, and that includes the press and Police, protects itself. - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/25/police-retract-claims-that-officers-suffered-broken-bones-at-bristol-protest


From the article:

'the force made the claims in a press release on Monday that “a total of 20 officers were assaulted or injured and two of them were taken to hospital after suffering broken bones. One of them also suffered a punctured lung.” '

...and then clarification was given...

' “Thankfully, following a full medical assessment of the two officers taken to hospital, neither were found to have suffered confirmed broken bones.”
...
However, the force has since updated the number of injuries suffered by police officers to 40'


The Guardian has chosen to spin the statements to imply that the Force lied. Whether you believe that they lied about officers with broken bones... or believe that the officers had suspected broken bones but that the injuries now appear to be less serious... will probably depend on your political persuasion.


The fact is that they haven't retracted the fact that officers were injured, but have actually now clarified that there were even more officers injured than originally thought. A fact strangely ignored by Mister Gyle in that article.

[superfurryhibby]

And there is why we shouldn't trust the media and why I don't trust the police. The establishment, and that includes the press and Police, protects itself. - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/25/police-retract-claims-that-officers-suffered-broken-bones-at-bristol-protest

With you fully on this.

I wonder who the troublemakers are? There are obviously different groups of people who want confrontation. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to find agent provocateurs amongst them. Standard practice for decades.

Here’s Tory under secretary Ivan Lawrence replying to Enoch Powell in Parliament in 1987.

“If the police were not allowed to fulfil a function as agents provocateurs, few of the recent cases of substantial drugs offences and widespread counterfeiting of international currency could have been brought before the courts.

As the law is, there is nothing improper about police being used as agents provocateurs in the English jurisdiction, although there is something improper about their being used as agents provocateurs in the American jurisdiction. It is no defence for an accused person to say that he would not have committed the offence but for the use of an agent provocateur. The only point at which the fact that an agent provocateur was employed can be used in favour of the defendant is in mitigation of the gravity of an offence if he is convicted.”

Powell was highlighting British Police and the boundaries of their shadowy methods

“Two matters appear to arise out of those exchanges between myself and the Home Secretary. The first is the use of police agents provocateurs and whether, in the Government's view, it is an appropriate procedure that police officers should present themselves to a member of the public as belonging to a terrorist organisation and 591 offer to undertake a murder on his or her behalf. That seems to overstep the line that divides the function of an agent provocateur from other investigative activities. It seems to me that for a police officer to act in a way that a member of the public might act and thus place himself in the way of detecting criminal actions or intentions is one thing, but for a police officer to offer to carry out a crime and to advertise himself as a specialist in that type of crime oversteps the line between innocent investigation and the function of agent provocateur, which I have always supposed, perhaps innocently, lay outside the scope of the British police”

The British state is ruthless and as well all know, will employ any means necessary, whenever it’s interest is undermined. Nothing should surprise us on that subject.

[wookie70]

From the article:

'the force made the claims in a press release on Monday that “a total of 20 officers were assaulted or injured and two of them were taken to hospital after suffering broken bones. One of them also suffered a punctured lung.” '

...and then clarification was given...

' “Thankfully, following a full medical assessment of the two officers taken to hospital, neither were found to have suffered confirmed broken bones.”
...
However, the force has since updated the number of injuries suffered by police officers to 40'


The Guardian has chosen to spin the statements to imply that the Force lied. Whether you believe that they lied about officers with broken bones... or believe that the officers had suspected broken bones but that the injuries now appear to be less serious... will probably depend on your political persuasion.


The fact is that they haven't retracted the fact that officers were injured, but have actually now clarified that there were even more officers injured than originally thought. A fact strangely ignored by Mister Gyle in that article.

But nothing about the severity of the injuries. Perhaps they were bee stings and fatigue/exhaustion as in previous cases like this. It is a brilliant way for the Police to make any protestors look like the aggressors. Combine that with a compliant media and you set the narrative. Protest will get diluted to a point it will be of little inconvenience. The whole point is to make a point, disrupt and disturb

[hibsbollah]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4yVIivyXUeMXzZW3p2gUDU?si=FsIL1af4ScyWLjsM86PgfQ

Upsetting content of one woman’s experience of sexual assault. Interestingly the Met came out of well.

[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56574557?fbclid=IwAR0lhDLewHM4yNMq0F6zlBDZuscJYMTT avFSEdlwCkzuPWihqEJTAcv01kY

[147lothian]

Sadie Robinson who wrote that article has a blatant anti establishment agenda.
I have just read other articles she has written and they are just unnuaced raves.
If this is the sort of thing you read it would explain your paranoia and unbalanced attitude towards the Police.
This is slightly better than some of her other pieces but the hate and bias still shines through.
I've never read The Socialist Worker before and I expected a much better standard of journalism than I found and was frankly shocked by the poor standard of Robinsons writing which makes thicko journalists at tabloid newspapers look competent. Her writing style has much in common with the angry writings of extreme right wing fascists.

P.S. The Battle Of Orgreave that you quoted was an incident from a bygone era almost 40 years ago such that the Cops, BBC Journalists and Miners involved will have long since retired and the organisations they represented and their working practices will have changed beyond recognition. Compare the present Hibernian FC to the Hibernian FC of 1984 if you don't believe me.

Socialist Workers Party, were involved in a rape scandle in 2013, when one of there leaders was accused of raping a young member, the SWP set up a kangaroo court, to question the victim, as a result their was mass resignations, I'm surprised they are still going, they seem like the last people who should be commenting on a tragic incident like this. All you need to do is google SWP resignations to check out their credentials.

[Pretty Boy]

I was reading some of the reporting of the sentencing hearing of Wayne Couzens.

Utterly harrowing. Premeditated, calculating and a horrific abuse of power and trust.

In instances like this I really have no interest in rehabilitation. He should spend the rest of his life in jail as the punishment part of his sentence.

[hibsbollah]

I was reading some of the reporting of the sentencing hearing of Wayne Couzens.

Utterly harrowing. Premeditated, calculating and a horrific abuse of power and trust.

In instances like this I really have no interest in rehabilitation. He should spend the rest of his life in jail as the punishment part of his sentence.

Stomach churning reading. My heart goes out to that poor woman and her family. He’s just a horrible horrible *******.

[Sir David Gray]

I was reading some of the reporting of the sentencing hearing of Wayne Couzens.

Utterly harrowing. Premeditated, calculating and a horrific abuse of power and trust.

In instances like this I really have no interest in rehabilitation. He should spend the rest of his life in jail as the punishment part of his sentence.

I could only read some of the details of what he did to Sarah Everard - it was one of the most horrific crimes I've ever read about.

Within the boundaries of our legal system, he absolutely must meet the criteria for a whole life term, nothing less should even be considered.

However it's at times like this that I wish we had an "eye for an eye" system in place and let him really suffer.

Utter ****.

[Kato]

Makes you wonder at the fates of the hundreds of missing persons. Callous *******.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[hibee_girl]

I was reading some of the reporting of the sentencing hearing of Wayne Couzens.

Utterly harrowing. Premeditated, calculating and a horrific abuse of power and trust.

In instances like this I really have no interest in rehabilitation. He should spend the rest of his life in jail as the punishment part of his sentence.

It’s horrific.

Her mum’s impact statement is just heartbreaking.

[EH6 Hibby]

The fact he took his kids to play near to where he dumped her body is sickening.

[Billy Whizz]

Makes you wonder at the fates of the hundreds of missing persons. Callous *******.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

This is not the 1st time he’s committed a crime

[Pretty Boy]

This is not the 1st time he’s committed a crime

I know the Met have referred themselves for investigation into the handling of the other accusations but there are some serious questions needing asked there. An officer reported for driving around with no trousers or pants on and for exposing himself in take aways and restaurants and he remained on active duty. Something stinks with that.

It was mentioned above, the victim impact statements were horrendous, the BBC published each of them in full. Reading them was like a battle between not wanting to read any further but feeling compelled to carry on. The description of the pain each of them felt at being unable to say one last goodbye was utterly heartbreaking. Couzens hasn't taken one life. He has quite evidently destroyed the lives of an entire family and he has placed an awful burden on his own wife and children as well.

[stokesmessiah]

This is not the 1st time he’s committed a crime

I was thinking this yesterday. You don’t just jump from 0 to 100 the way he has, there must be some kind of build up to this most horrific crime, surely?

The fact that his fellow officers used to call him “the rapist” is chilling as well.

[Santa Cruz]

I know the Met have referred themselves for investigation into the handling of the other accusations but there are some serious questions needing asked there. An officer reported for driving around with no trousers or pants on and for exposing himself in take aways and restaurants and he remained on active duty. Something stinks with that.

It was mentioned above, the victim impact statements were horrendous, the BBC published each of them in full. Reading them was like a battle between not wanting to read any further but feeling compelled to carry on. The description of the pain each of them felt at being unable to say one last goodbye was utterly heartbreaking. Couzens hasn't taken one life. He has quite evidently destroyed the lives of an entire family and he has placed an awful burden on his own wife and children as well.

Do you know what I thought when I read the victim impact statements, how brave were the family to be able to read them out in court after that evil monster destroyed their lives by taking the life of their defenceless daughter and sister. I can't imagine where somebody gets the strength to do that when dealing with grief and trauma knowing what they know (because someone that evil will not be telling the full truth).

[Since90+2]

I was reading that he placed her under fake arrest and placed her in handcuffs. Assuming he wasn't in uniform, are Police officers permitted to arrest anyone at anytime?

He'll thankfully never see the light of day. Evil ****bag.

[Since90+2]

Has there ever been any studies as to why men commit these horrific crimes far more than women? Obviously men have a physical advantage the majority of the time but that doesn't explain why men commit these type of crimes the vast majority of the time.

[Pretty Boy]

I was reading that he placed her under fake arrest and placed her in handcuffs. Assuming he wasn't in uniform, are Police officers permitted to arrest anyone at anytime?

He'll thankfully never see the light of day. Evil ****bag.

I think that where possible only a female officer should arrest or have any physical contact with a female being arrested. Happy to be corrected on that though.

Either way I'm not sure it would have made any difference in this case. He used a valid warrant card when carrying out the arrest, witnesses saw him do it and the basic social compliance we all have meant they didn't question it and I'm not sure many of us really know the ins and outs of our rights when being arrested. I've been arrested once and just went along with it because I didn't really have a clue what was and wasn't permitted. Aside from all that I think the crime was so calculating that had there been significant resistance he was perfectly capable of overpowering by force quickly. He's a big guy and his police training will mean he is well aware of how to restrain someone quickly.

[One Day Soon]

I think that where possible only a female officer should arrest or have any physical contact with a female being arrested. Happy to be corrected on that though.

Either way I'm not sure it would have made any difference in this case. He used a valid warrant card when carrying out the arrest, witnesses saw him do it and the basic social compliance we all have meant they didn't question it and I'm not sure many of us really know the ins and outs of our rights when being arrested. I've been arrested once and just went along with it because I didn't really have a clue what was and wasn't permitted. Aside from all that I think the crime was so calculating that had there been significant resistance he was perfectly capable of overpowering by force quickly. He's a big guy and his police training will mean he is well aware of how to restrain someone quickly.


I think there's some real merit in this. If a woman knows that the law says she cannot be arrested without a female officer present she knows right away that something is wrong if a sick person like him attempts to do so. It at least gives the prospective victim an early indication that something isn't right and the chance to draw attention to herself and the circumstances. If any good at all is to come of this that may be it. And hopefully a much higher level of public inquisitiveness when they see something like this happening. What would have happened if what you suggest were the law and the witnesses saw a single officer trying to arrest a woman? Questions at least you'd hope. Perhaps phone camera pictures being obviously and openly taken. Quite possibly enough to spook the perpetrator and save a life.

[Sir David Gray]

Whole life sentence confirmed.

Hope he rots in hell.

[hibsbollah]

Those impact statements…my god. Brought tears to my eyes.

[Since90+2]

Hopefully he's treated diabolically by the other inmates. How anyone can be that cruel is just beyond me.

[lord bunberry]

People like him should be sent to a special prison that is tougher than the normal prisons.

[AltheHibby]

"I think there's some real merit in this. If a woman knows that the law says she cannot be arrested without a female officer present she knows right away that something is wrong."

I get where you are coming from, but that could (would) lead to women trying to get out of, say, a drink drive arrest as the traffic cop is male. I think "where possible" is used already.

The real tragedy is that the progress of how the police treat women, especially when sexual offences are alleged has become better over the last however many years;and now this case has destroyed a huge amount of that progress.

Edit: I suspect the "whole life" part will be short as he is an ex cop and a 'nonce.

[Santa Cruz]

People like him should be sent to a special prison that is tougher than the normal prisons.

Doesn't matter really, I wouldn't have thought there's an easy sentence for a convicted policeman. Just relived he got a whole life term, it won't bring the family any peace just reassurance he won't walk the streets again.

[Alex Trager]

Has there ever been any studies as to why men commit these horrific crimes far more than women? Obviously men have a physical advantage the majority of the time but that doesn't explain why men commit these type of crimes the vast majority of the time.

This is the crux of the matter.

I want to know how to prevent these crimes, or rather prevent these criminals happening.

What is it as a society that we are not doing but should be to stop men acting like this?

I’m absolutely behind the removal of responsibility on women - don’t wear headphones etc.

I just don’t know what the answer is. How do we prevent it?

[neil7908]

People like him should be sent to a special prison that is tougher than the normal prisons.

I know it's a slippery slope and all that but in this particular case I wouldn't have any moral concerns with him being executed.

For a whole host of reasons I don't want this to happen in the UK but speaking morally, I think he deserves to die for what he's done and him rotting in prison serves no purpose.

What I think is irrelevant of course compared to the horrendous suffering the family have gone through. I hope they are able to gain even the smallest form of closure from the sentence, although I don't imagine that's possible given what they have been through.

[neil7908]

This is the crux of the matter.

I want to know how to prevent these crimes, or rather prevent these criminals happening.

What is it as a society that we are not doing but should be to stop men acting like this?

I’m absolutely behind the removal of responsibility on women - don’t wear headphones etc.

I just don’t know what the answer is. How do we prevent it?

I'm no expert but for far too long some pretty terrible male behaviour has been brushed under the carpet (and still is). Horrendous objectification and sexualisation of women has been dismissed as banter, which allows people like him to stay unchecked.

This guy has had a bunch of allegations of indecent exposure etc levelled against him, and was apparently nicknamed "the rapist" by other police officers. I'm sure it was a "joke" to them but they are the ones we trust to protect us and there is still a massive culture of acceptance of that kind of stuff.

Personally I think there will always be some people like him who, genetically or whatever, have this predisposition to extreme violence. But I also think we can prevent a chunk of people from learning terrible behaviour, or catching them before they do real damage.

But it needs the police, other institutions and men to take things seriously. I'm not perfect and have said and done stuff in the past that I know now isn't right. But I also know that I won't do it again and won't tolerate that from others.

[Alex Trager]

I'm no expert but for far too long some pretty terrible male behaviour has been brushed under the carpet (and still is). Horrendous objectification and sexualisation of women has been dismissed as banter, which allows people like him to stay unchecked.

This guy has had a bunch of allegations of indecent exposure etc levelled against him, and was apparently nicknamed "the rapist" by other police officers. I'm sure it was a "joke" to them but they are the ones we trust to protect us and there is still a massive culture of acceptance of that kind of stuff.

Personally I think there will always be some people like him who, genetically or whatever, have this predisposition to extreme violence. But I also think we can prevent a chunk of people from learning terrible behaviour, or catching them before they do real damage.

But it needs the police, other institutions and men to take things seriously. I'm not perfect and have said and done stuff in the past that I know now isn't right. But I also know that I won't do it again and won't tolerate that from others.

Essentially this is all I can come up with as well.

[Sir David Gray]

I know it's a slippery slope and all that but in this particular case I wouldn't have any moral concerns with him being executed.

For a whole host of reasons I don't want this to happen in the UK but speaking morally, I think he deserves to die for what he's done and him rotting in prison serves no purpose.

What I think is irrelevant of course compared to the horrendous suffering the family have gone through. I hope they are able to gain even the smallest form of closure from the sentence, although I don't imagine that's possible given what they have been through.

I'm normally opposed to capital punishment but mainly only because I find it unacceptable that we may sometimes put an innocent person to death.

However in cases like this where the guilt is beyond doubt and the crime is so heinous I really would have no qualms with him being executed.

[lapsedhibee]

Horrendous objectification and sexualisation of women has been dismissed as banter, which allows people like him to stay unchecked.

'Our' prime minister in 2016: "Voting Tory will cause your wife to have bigger breasts"

[Ozyhibby]

I'm normally opposed to capital punishment but mainly only because I find it unacceptable that we may sometimes put an innocent person to death.

However in cases like this where the guilt is beyond doubt and the crime is so heinous I really would have no qualms with him being executed.

I personally think having to live the rest of his life in British prisons is a worse penalty than execution. There is a reason suicide rates and self harming is so rife in UK prisons.


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[Craig_HFC]

I personally think having to live the rest of his life in British prisons is a worse penalty than execution. There is a reason suicide rates and self harming is so rife in UK prisons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed, especially being an ex-polis.

[He's here!]

Whole life sentence confirmed.

Hope he rots in hell.

A case where I believe few would quibble at a temporary re-introduction of the death penalty.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.channel4.com/news/more-than-100-women-accuse-police-officers-of-domestic-abuse-alleging-boys-club-culture

This report was back in May this year.

"One woman every week is coming forward to report their partner in the police is seriously abusing them or their children – more than 125 have come forward in the last two years, Channel 4 News can reveal. Every woman we spoke to said police failed to investigate their own."

"A Freedom of Information request by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that from 2015 to 2018, there were almost 700 reports of domestic violence involving police officers and staff.

The figures also show that police accused of domestic abuse are a third less likely to be convicted than the general public — 3.9 per cent compared with 6.2 per cent."

The boys club closing ranks according to the victims.:rolleyes:

[JimBHibees]

https://www.channel4.com/news/more-than-100-women-accuse-police-officers-of-domestic-abuse-alleging-boys-club-culture

This report was back in May this year.

"One woman every week is coming forward to report their partner in the police is seriously abusing them or their children – more than 125 have come forward in the last two years, Channel 4 News can reveal. Every woman we spoke to said police failed to investigate their own."

"A Freedom of Information request by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that from 2015 to 2018, there were almost 700 reports of domestic violence involving police officers and staff.

The figures also show that police accused of domestic abuse are a third less likely to be convicted than the general public — 3.9 per cent compared with 6.2 per cent."

The boys club closing ranks according to the victims.:rolleyes:

That is despicable to be honest. The default is close ranks and protect their own it looks like however like any other walk of life there will be good and bad.

[ronaldo7]

That is despicable to be honest. The default is close ranks and protect their own it looks like however like any other walk of life there will be good and bad.

I'd agree with this. It's a bit unfortunate though, that when they're put under the spotlight, the first thing they do, is close ranks.

[JimBHibees]

I'd agree with this. It's a bit unfortunate though, that when they're put under the spotlight, the first thing they do, is close ranks.

Inherent culture imo

[Torto7]

https://www.channel4.com/news/more-than-100-women-accuse-police-officers-of-domestic-abuse-alleging-boys-club-culture

This report was back in May this year.

"One woman every week is coming forward to report their partner in the police is seriously abusing them or their children – more than 125 have come forward in the last two years, Channel 4 News can reveal. Every woman we spoke to said police failed to investigate their own."

"A Freedom of Information request by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that from 2015 to 2018, there were almost 700 reports of domestic violence involving police officers and staff.

The figures also show that police accused of domestic abuse are a third less likely to be convicted than the general public — 3.9 per cent compared with 6.2 per cent."

The boys club closing ranks according to the victims.:rolleyes:

This reminds me of the grooming gangs cover up, vulnerable young girls ignored due to the uncomfortable race element and also the fact cops were doing the same thing. I think this type of abuse is so common across the country and its too costly and uncomfortable for certain institutions to ever tackle. Life's decrepit when you start to pull back the curtain.

[easty]

This reminds me of the grooming gangs cover up, vulnerable young girls ignored due to the uncomfortable race element and also the fact cops were doing the same thing. I think this type of abuse is so common across the country and its too costly and uncomfortable for certain institutions to ever tackle. Life's decrepit when you start to pull back the curtain.

Cops were grooming young girls?

[Torto7]

Cops were grooming young girls?

That was certainly the case in Rotherham although it was covered up.

[Pretty Boy]

I think there is always going to be an element of closing ranks in almost any institution. It certainly happens with the likes of Doctors and lawyers; we have seen the horrors that can play out when it happens within religious organisations such as the Catholic Church and it happens with charities, political parties, care settings, the armed forces and so on.

It's a huge issue when it happens with the Police though because as an entity they have the full power of the state behind them, power that is meant to allow them to uphold the laws of the land. When that power is abused and it is hushed up, ignored or even condoned then it directly or indirectly impacts all of us. It's an even bigger issue with the Met because of the institutional scandals that have dogged them for decades.

There are so many layers of tragedy to this story and institutional incompetence or corruption is just another one.

[Paul1642]

https://www.channel4.com/news/more-than-100-women-accuse-police-officers-of-domestic-abuse-alleging-boys-club-culture

This report was back in May this year.

"One woman every week is coming forward to report their partner in the police is seriously abusing them or their children – more than 125 have come forward in the last two years, Channel 4 News can reveal. Every woman we spoke to said police failed to investigate their own."

"A Freedom of Information request by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that from 2015 to 2018, there were almost 700 reports of domestic violence involving police officers and staff.

The figures also show that police accused of domestic abuse are a third less likely to be convicted than the general public — 3.9 per cent compared with 6.2 per cent."

The boys club closing ranks according to the victims.:rolleyes:

I would assume that the reason for that is that Police are more likely to know how to avoid incriminating themselves and know what to / not to say when interviewed rather than some sort of cover up.

[neil7908]

Some very scary stuff in this article:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58754182

"Female police officers fear reporting male colleagues as they worry they will be abandoned if they need help on duty, says a former senior officer.

Ex-Met Ch Supt Parm Sandhu said female officers fear being "kicked in" while dealing with street violence.

And a police watchdog inspector has admitted she would be concerned to approach a lone male officer at night."

"Speaking to Radio 4's The World at One, Ms Sandhu called the police service "very sexist and misogynistic".

She told how she had been "vilified" after reporting an incident involving a male colleague."

"Meanwhile, Zoe Billingham, a senior inspector with Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, told the BBC's Woman's Hour programme: "We cannot dismiss Wayne Couzens as a one-off or an aberration."

Asked if she would feel safe going to a male police at night with a problem, Ms Billingham replied: "At this moment in time, like any other woman, I have concerns and reservations."

[Future17]

I would assume that the reason for that is that Police are more likely to know how to avoid incriminating themselves and know what to / not to say when interviewed rather than some sort of cover up.

Not if they actually failed to investigate as is alleged...although that might be semantics.

[Bristolhibby]

People like him should be sent to a special prison that is tougher than the normal prisons.

TBF being a ex cop in a normal prison is enough to get you on the beast wing.

J

[hibsbollah]

Cressida Dick is absolute Teflon. She’s survived de menezes (and got promoted just after), she’s survived institutional corruption findings, rejected the Stephen Lawrence findings, cops going undercover to **** hippy protestors, and now she’s happy to bang on yesterday about how much anger she’s feeling about this one individual, but nothing about wider problems in the met, with the culture or reports of other officers knowing what Couzens was like. Who can blame her I suppose, nobody in UK high office takes responsibility for anything so why should she?

[CMurdoch]

The common denominator is men abusing women and in the worst cases killing them.
A massive cultural change is required.
Sex is still being used to sell everything and the internet has normalised all sexual behaviour.
Our whole society is about the desire of humans for money and power.
People are out of control and their expectations and mental health are bent out of shape.
As ever lots of blame is being attributed in this case but society will carry on as before and guess what ............ it will happen again next month or next year. Some other innocent women will be murdered and we will go through the same pointless process.
We continue to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

[neil7908]

The common denominator is men abusing women and in the worst cases killing them.
A massive cultural change is required.
Sex is still being used to sell everything and the internet has normalised all sexual behaviour.
Our whole society is about the desire of humans for money and power.
People are out of control and their expectations and mental health are bent out of shape.
As ever lots of blame is being attributed in this case but society will carry on as before and guess what ............ it will happen again next month or next year. Some other innocent women will be murdered and we will go through the same pointless process.
We continue to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

So what's the solution then?

What you say is true, but the police are in place to enforce our laws. If we can't trust them, how do we change other parts of society? It shouldn't get lost in the "its a societal problem" argument that gets banded about any time institutions are challenged. It's the exact same excuse Sevco use every time sectarianism comes up and whilst true, also conveniently gives them an excuse to do the nothing.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/women-prey-authority-violence-against-women

Marina Hyde in her least funny yet column. Brilliant in a different way.

[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/women-prey-authority-violence-against-women

Marina Hyde in her least funny yet column. Brilliant in a different way."At least 80 women in the UK have been*killed by men*since Everard"

If that had been terrorist attacks.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

Marina Hyde in her least funny yet column. Brilliant in a different way.
:agree: Superb piece of writing.

[Paul1642]

"At least 80 women in the UK have been*killed by men*since Everard"

If that had been terrorist attacks.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

And yet 80 different professions (minus the unemployed) are not under extreme scrutiny like the police.

Tomorrow’s headline - “don’t trust your male postie / baker / IT guy”

[hibsbollah]

And yet 80 different professions (minus the unemployed) are not under extreme scrutiny like the police.

Tomorrow’s headline - “don’t trust your male postie / baker / IT guy”

Other professions’ representatives haven’t been in the media, like the North Yorkshire crime commissioner has been, saying she ‘shouldn’t have submitted’ to Couzens and ‘women need to be more streetwise’. I get that he’s a Tory, not a cop, but i don’t think it’s good for the public image of plod, do you?

[Since90+2]

And yet 80 different professions (minus the unemployed) are not under extreme scrutiny like the police.

Tomorrow’s headline - “don’t trust your male postie / baker / IT guy”

I think the issue with the Police is the power they hold over the public. The majority of people will comply with any request that a Police Officer makes, even if they know they have done nothing wrong.

Your postie doesn't have the power to detain you, put handcuffs on you or put you in the back of their car.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/women-prey-authority-violence-against-women

Marina Hyde in her least funny yet column. Brilliant in a different way.

She nails it as always.

Just because something is 'extreme' doesn't means it's foundations aren't set in acts that are still deemed as societally acceptable by some (many?)

[Pretty Boy]

And yet 80 different professions (minus the unemployed) are not under extreme scrutiny like the police.

Tomorrow’s headline - “don’t trust your male postie / baker / IT guy”

Other professions don't have the same power over the populace as the Police do.

Individual and institutional issues with the Police are also topical, hence the additional scrutiny.

[CMurdoch]

So what's the solution then?

What you say is true, but the police are in place to enforce our laws. If we can't trust them, how do we change other parts of society? It shouldn't get lost in the "its a societal problem" argument that gets banded about any time institutions are challenged. It's the exact same excuse Sevco use every time sectarianism comes up and whilst true, also conveniently gives them an excuse to do the nothing.

There is no easy solution or it would have been sorted long ago.
Maybe I am just getting old but with the digital age everything now feels more out of control than ever before and the genie can never be put back in the bottle.

As for the Police, my knowledge of them is limited to retired cops I know but what I can say with confidence is they can't sort out all of society's ills which are just too vast. They are good at dealing with big stuff like murders where they are concentrating on a single task with decent resources and able to use advances in forensic science, CCTV and mobile phone records etc to identify culprits and collect evidence. Other than that I think they just about keep a lid on things.
As for the issue of violence against women they have specialist Detective led units for Domestic Abuse Investigation and Public Protection dealing with vast case loads including complex honour based violence cases. They are better trained and more switched on than ever to the issues but woman are still being regularly killed by men and the murder of Sarah Everard by an of duty Police Officer using his Police status is an unprecedented hammer blow to trust which will be felt for 30 years.

The reality with life is that we need to look after ourselves and our loved ones as best we can. If life teaches us anything it is not to rely on others.
Sadly for me that means giving and repeating personal safety advice to my daughter and hoping she keeps to it even though she correctly thinks she shouldn't have to. It also means setting a good example for my son by challenging inappropriate behaviour which I regret not having the guts to do when I was young.

[Kato]

https://news.sky.com/story/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-with-rape-12425551

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[ronaldo7]

https://news.sky.com/story/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-with-rape-12425551

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

More stories about police brutality will emerge, and let's hope they all spend a long time in jail.

Best place for them.

[Paul1642]

I think the issue with the Police is the power they hold over the public. The majority of people will comply with any request that a Police Officer makes, even if they know they have done nothing wrong.

Your postie doesn't have the power to detain you, put handcuffs on you or put you in the back of their car.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-58790840

To some degree that’s true, but neither does an off duty police officer have that authority. Will the NHS be public enemy due to the linked equally as horrible killings?

[Since90+2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-58790840

To some degree that’s true, but neither does an off duty police officer have that authority. Will the NHS be public enemy due to the linked equally as horrible killings?

An off duty Police Officer does have that authority. They can carry out an arrest, detain ect even if not on shift.

Whether that should be the case or not is another matter, but they do.

[Just_Jimmy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-58790840

To some degree that’s true, but neither does an off duty police officer have that authority. Will the NHS be public enemy due to the linked equally as horrible killings?Yes they do.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

And yet 80 different professions (minus the unemployed) are not under extreme scrutiny like the police.

Tomorrow’s headline - “don’t trust your male postie / baker / IT guy”


"Fifty-two per cent of police found guilty (https://bylinetimes.com/2021/09/20/more-than-half-of-met-police-officers-found-guilty-of-sexual-misconduct-kept-their-jobs/) of sexual misconduct kept their jobs."

That alone should mean they are under scrutiny. How can they possibly be trusted when more than half of those proven to have committed an act of sexual misconduct are still officers. They have a huge amount of power over the public and the fact they are more than likely to keep their jobs after being proven to do something, that in itself is an abuse of another, is amazing but sadly completely unsurprising. For an officer to be nicknamed Rapist and still not one officer has the courage to do something about it says everything about the police for me. This isn't a rotten apple scenario here. The police are aware of the issue (https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research-learning/abuse_of_police_powers_to_perpetrate_sexual_violen ce.pdf) and one of the common factors is other officers knowing about behaviour that is completely unacceptable for someone in such a position of power.

[Keith_M]

I can see any police officer abusing their power is a very serious concern but, TBH, I'm also a bit concerned about the way the Police in general are being painted.

If there have been abuses of power, by all means these should be investigated and something done about it, but I'm not sure I agree with some of the hyperbole, like 'The Police Service Is Unfit For Purpose'.

I've personally encountered some unacceptable behaviour by on-duty Police Officers but I've never thought of that as evidence that they're all bad.



NOTE: I should have made it clear I didn't mean my fellow posters, I was referring to some media outlets and some other groups.

Thanks Neil for replying, as I hadn't realised how my comment had come over till you mentioned it. :aok:

[neil7908]

I can see any police officer abusing their power is a very serious concern but, TBH, I'm also a bit concerned about the way the Police in general are being painted.

If there have been abuses of power, by all means these should be investigated and something done about it, but I'm not sure I agree with some of the hyperbole, like 'The Police Service Is Unfit For Purpose'.

I've personally encountered some unacceptable behaviour by on-duty Police Officers but I've never thought of that as evidence that they're all bad.

Is anyone saying they're all bad though? I would be very surprised if many people thought like that and despite criticising them, I certainly don't think that's the case.

All we are asking is better from the people that have the power to detain us and enforce the countries laws.

And I think the key thing here is that it isn't actually about individuals. There will always be bad men who want to hurt women (and other men). Some will inevitably find their way into the police due to the sheer number of officers.

The question being asked here, and from my point at least the change I want to see, is systemic. That is the issue.

How is sexist behaviour dealt with when it comes to light by police officers? Is there a boys club culture that prevails and closes ranks to protect anyone accused of inappropriate acts? How did Couzens manage to display very, very worrying behaviour (let's remember his nickname) and still continue serving?

That's the key here - is the culture right? Let's remember that the Met was called institutionally racist not so long ago. Its the institutional bit that's key here and the part that really needs addressed.

I think right now many people just don't have confidence that internal warning signs will be looked at and dealt with. And if that keeps happening, why would anyone trust them again when they aren't properly monitoring their own?

[neil7908]

The below illustrates my point further (I hadn't seen it before I posted above but it encapsulates my concerns perfectly):

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/06/police-scotland-boys-club-victimised-female-officer-tribunal-rules

There are wider issues than just 1 or 2 bad apples. The kind of stuff mentioned in the article would not be tolerated in my work, and many others - why should we accept it in the police?

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58809585

Sexist 'boys' club' culture in armed police unit, rules tribunal

The culture in an armed policing unit within Police Scotland was "horrific" and an "absolute boys' club", an employment tribunal has found.

It accepted evidence of a "sexist culture" in the armed response vehicles unit (ARV) in the east of Scotland.

Former firearms officer Rhona Malone raised the tribunal against the force alleging sex discrimination and victimisation.

Her victimisation claims succeeded but the discrimination claim was dismissed.

It also found that Ms Malone was an "entirely credible and reliable witness", but the evidence of her former superior, Insp Keith Warhurst, was "contradictory, confusing and ultimately incredible".

Insp Warhurst sent an email in January 2018 saying two female firearms officers should not be deployed together when there were sufficient male staff on duty.

Police Scotland apologised unreservedly to Ms Malone and said it would address the issues raised in the judgement "as a matter of urgency".

Ms Malone told BBC Scotland she was "extremely emotional and phenomenally grateful".

[Keith_M]

Is anyone saying they're all bad though? I would be very surprised if many people thought like that and despite criticising them, I certainly don't think that's the case.



Apologies, I should have made it clear that I didn't mean on here.

:aok:


The quote I gave was actually from The Guardian, but that's just one of many making similar comments

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I have friends who are Policemen and they are decent blokes doing a difficult job. Even amongst them though, in off guard moments, the odd comments are made about ones who can't distinguish between the Queen's Law that they are there to uphold and what their own opinions are. The fact that they are Policemen is secondary to them being racist or sexist first. If we have to trust the Police one hundred percent, it shouldn't be too much to ask that procedures are in place to make sure that one hundred percent of them can be trusted.

[Since90+2]

I have friends who are Policemen and they are decent blokes doing a difficult job. Even amongst them though, in off guard moments, the odd comments are made about ones who can't distinguish between the Queen's Law that they are there to uphold and what their own opinions are. The fact that they are Policemen is secondary to them being racist or sexist first. If we have to trust the Police one hundred percent, it shouldn't be too much to ask that procedures are in place to make sure that one hundred percent of them can be trusted.

I'm not sure what can actually be done to make sure 100% of them can be trusted. What procedure could possibly achieve that?

Someone could apply for the role and pass all required checks, come from a good background and have has no history whatsoever of bad behaviour but still be a bad apple. I can't think of what could feasibly be done to ensure that from here on in every single police officer who is ever recruited is an upstanding citizen.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not sure what can actually be done to make sure 100% of them can be trusted. What procedure could possibly achieve that?

Someone could apply for the role and pass all required checks, come from a good background and have has no history whatsoever of bad behaviour but still be a bad apple. I can't think of what could feasibly be done to ensure that from here on in every single police officer who is ever recruited is an upstanding citizen.

100% should be the aim, whether it's realistic or not. The whole point of CRB, PVG, Disclosure etc is that it is an ongoing process. Not simply a singular background check and on you go.

If due process is followed then the bad apples should be weeded out early on in their criminal career. Wayne Couzens didn't go from nice guy to murderer overnight. There was a pattern of behaviour that developed over a period of time. A pattern of behaviour that saw him earn the nickname 'the rapist'. Behaviour that saw him reported for indecent exposure. It beggars belief he was allowed to continue on active duty after that. If I was accused of such a crime then I would be suspended from work pending either a trial or dismissal of the charges. That is a systemic failure on the part of the Met and it's hardly the 1st one. The Stephen Lawrence case highlighted a long standing institutional racism. Given the failures to deal with Couzens and a second officer now facing a rape trial there is a new pattern emerging.

This week has seen fresh and horrific reports into systemic abuse in the Catholic Church emerge, there have been scandals involving football clubs, Barnardos, the Seafarers Society, the Church of Scotland, the Scout movement and countless more. Predators will always seek out places where they have not only access to potential victims but also an environment in which they hold power over them. There is arguably no greater place to attain power over others than in the Police. As such it's absolutely imperative that Police Officers, Priests, Scout Leaders, Social Workers etc etc are held to the highest standards and anyone falling below those standards is removed from their position of power. In the case of the Met they have quite evidently failed in upholding any standards around Couzens and I doubt that is a one off. There is neither excuse nor explanation for that and it's only right the Police as a whole and their procedures come under increased scrutiny as a result of that.

[hibsbollah]

100% should be the aim, whether it's realistic or not. The whole point of CRB, PVG, Disclosure etc is that it is an ongoing process. Not simply a singular background check and on you go.

If due process is followed then the bad apples should be weeded out early on in their criminal career. Wayne Couzens didn't go from nice guy to murderer overnight. There was a pattern of behaviour that developed over a period of time. A pattern of behaviour that saw him earn the nickname 'the rapist'. Behaviour that saw him reported for indecent exposure. It beggars belief he was allowed to continue on active duty after that. If I was accused of such a crime then I would be suspended from work pending either a trial or dismissal of the charges. That is a systemic failure on the part of the Met and it's hardly the 1st one. The Stephen Lawrence case highlighted a long standing institutional racism. Given the failures to deal with Couzens and a second officer now facing a rape trial there is a new pattern emerging.

This week has seen fresh and horrific reports into systemic abuse in the Catholic Church emerge, there have been scandals involving football clubs, Barnardos, the Seafarers Society, the Church of Scotland, the Scout movement and countless more. Predators will always seek out places where they have not only access to potential victims but also an environment in which they hold power over them. There is arguably no greater place to attain power over others than in the Police. As such it's absolutely imperative that Police Officers, Priests, Scout Leaders, Social Workers etc etc are held to the highest standards and anyone falling below those standards is removed from their position of power. In the case of the Met they have quite evidently failed in upholding any standards around Couzens and I doubt that is a one off. There is neither excuse nor explanation for that and it's only right the Police as a whole and their procedures come under increased scrutiny as a result of that.

I was just listening to the news about the French inquiry, the scale of the abuse in the church is really shocking. I suppose the similarities between the police and the church as a safe place for abusers to operate are too obvious to repeat, both figures of respect in society (traditionally, anyway), hierarchical, top down systems of power and accountability and both have political power. The only way to ensure public trust is to get external bodies to oversee all organisations safeguarding and disciplinary systems. I’ve got no faith in the disclosure system that operates in this country either for things like kids football. Far too easy to operate a tick box exercise.

[wookie70]

Not a great look for the Police again https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelondoneconomic.com%2F news%2Fwoman-pinned-at-everard-vigil-tinder-liked-by-about-50-police-officers-294115%2F%3Futm_medium%3Dcpc%26utm_source%3Dfacebo ok%26utm_campaign%3Dtlb&h=AT1fLWuHVAzpZfraRyqd-HWMa57EGheIaO5H25wErUddTyAvc5XMDQzOy8YOO8PYcLBM7Gw 1q1qIcqtbrnBVsfZ9XaUZQuRiqcqFEn8Oj4trFxx4Yo4jyoVIS D-PJ9iwOZ3J

[AltheHibby]

Picking on a single issue, the DBS check. Given that Saville would have passed it due to no convictions it is at best a statement that they haven't been caught (yet).

I know that it's unfair to say that for the majority who would never consider offending, but in reality that's how it appears to me and comes across as box ticking.

Moving on to bad apples, I am currently reading a book called With the Old Breed. The author, E B Sledge tells how he initially regrets killing an enemy soldier but then realises that the guy was about to kill him. From then on it becomes easier to kill as the reality of the brutality sinks in. And, more importantly, easy to ignore the brutality of comrades.

In a police perspective, they try to be the E B Sledge who considers the person attacking them. But when it happens enough it's easy to become uncaring and think only of what "I" need. That the vast majority of police can keep caring is a tribute to the people and the recruitment systems. But,like Sledge (Sledgehammer in The Pacific) it can become easy to ignore the situation and just get on with your own stressful job. Is that wrong? Yes. Is it also realistic under pressure most of us will never know? Also yes.

That we have relatively few bad apples compared to many other countries (I'm talking to you USA) says that we are doing relatively well. That we also have long training and on the job assessment also helps and means that, thankfully, horrific incidents like this are rare. And let's not forget, it was good police work that caught him.

[Since90+2]

100% should be the aim, whether it's realistic or not. The whole point of CRB, PVG, Disclosure etc is that it is an ongoing process. Not simply a singular background check and on you go.

If due process is followed then the bad apples should be weeded out early on in their criminal career. Wayne Couzens didn't go from nice guy to murderer overnight. There was a pattern of behaviour that developed over a period of time. A pattern of behaviour that saw him earn the nickname 'the rapist'. Behaviour that saw him reported for indecent exposure. It beggars belief he was allowed to continue on active duty after that. If I was accused of such a crime then I would be suspended from work pending either a trial or dismissal of the charges. That is a systemic failure on the part of the Met and it's hardly the 1st one. The Stephen Lawrence case highlighted a long standing institutional racism. Given the failures to deal with Couzens and a second officer now facing a rape trial there is a new pattern emerging.

This week has seen fresh and horrific reports into systemic abuse in the Catholic Church emerge, there have been scandals involving football clubs, Barnardos, the Seafarers Society, the Church of Scotland, the Scout movement and countless more. Predators will always seek out places where they have not only access to potential victims but also an environment in which they hold power over them. There is arguably no greater place to attain power over others than in the Police. As such it's absolutely imperative that Police Officers, Priests, Scout Leaders, Social Workers etc etc are held to the highest standards and anyone falling below those standards is removed from their position of power. In the case of the Met they have quite evidently failed in upholding any standards around Couzens and I doubt that is a one off. There is neither excuse nor explanation for that and it's only right the Police as a whole and their procedures come under increased scrutiny as a result of that.

The reality is we can make it an aim but it's an aim that can never be achieved. We don't live in a world where future human behaviour and interactions of hundreds of thousands of people can be predicted and quantified to that granular level.

Mitigations and procedures can be put in place to lower the risk level but if we are looking to have a Police force in which every single officer is 100% trustworthy then I don't think that will ever be achieved.

[Paul1642]

Not a great look for the Police again https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelondoneconomic.com%2F news%2Fwoman-pinned-at-everard-vigil-tinder-liked-by-about-50-police-officers-294115%2F%3Futm_medium%3Dcpc%26utm_source%3Dfacebo ok%26utm_campaign%3Dtlb&h=AT1fLWuHVAzpZfraRyqd-HWMa57EGheIaO5H25wErUddTyAvc5XMDQzOy8YOO8PYcLBM7Gw 1q1qIcqtbrnBVsfZ9XaUZQuRiqcqFEn8Oj4trFxx4Yo4jyoVIS D-PJ9iwOZ3J

What a load of nonsense. By “liked her profile” it means swiped right on her when she appeared on their feed at random, in what would clearly be a random act from people who likely have no idea who she is. Tinder is a complete open system and a terrible way to meet men if your left terrified by being “liked”, which is in effect the entire point of the app!!. And let’s not forget that she can only see that they liked her if she also liked them. Stupid article.

Only point I would take way from it is how stupid are the serving police to identify them selfs as cops on their tinder profiles.

[CapitalGreen]

What a load of nonsense. By “liked her profile” it means swiped right on her when she appeared on their feed at random, in what would clearly be a random act from people who likely have no idea who she is. Tinder is a complete open system and a terrible way to meet men if your left terrified by being “liked”, which is in effect the entire point of the app!!. And let’s not forget that she can only see that they liked her if she also liked them. Stupid article.

Only point I would take way from it is how stupid are the serving police to identify them selfs as cops on their tinder profiles.

The part in bold is not correct, premium users of the the app can see who has swiped right on their profile without having to swipe right themselves.

[AltheHibby]

Following on from my dig at American cops above, I found this in Twitter tonight.

Slightly off topic, I know, but still valid.

https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1446593630051909636?t=8gEQy7LMR74r1uvOn91EAA&s=19

[hibsbollah]

Incredible revelations today as court restrictions are lifted.
This creature is one of the most prolific sexual predators of all time as warnings were ignored by The Met by years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/16/metropolitan-police-officer-david-carrick-revealed-as-serial-rapist

[Kato]

Incredible revelations today as court restrictions are lifted.
This creature is one of the most prolific sexual predators of all time as warnings were ignored by The Met by years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/16/metropolitan-police-officer-david-carrick-revealed-as-serial-rapistThey'll be "reviewing their systems to make sure this never happens again."

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Santa Cruz]

Should be another Police Force reviewing the 1,000 historical complaints. The people responsible for investigating him for previous complaints should be sacked for negligence. Probably just took his word for it. The apologies are meaningless.

[wookie70]

Incredible revelations today as court restrictions are lifted.
This creature is one of the most prolific sexual predators of all time as warnings were ignored by The Met by years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/16/metropolitan-police-officer-david-carrick-revealed-as-serial-rapist

It is only incredible that this doesn't even remotely surprise me. Police Officers getting charged with a crime is as likely as The Rangers getting a penalty against them at Ibrox. The "referee" in both cases is part of that club. It does say much that even those on probation appear to receive protection or perhaps it is the type of officer they are looking for.

[s.a.m]

Incredible revelations today as court restrictions are lifted.
This creature is one of the most prolific sexual predators of all time as warnings were ignored by The Met by years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/16/metropolitan-police-officer-david-carrick-revealed-as-serial-rapist

I see that article also says that reporting restrictions are now lifted, and it can be made public that this case and the Met's failure to act were part of the reason for Cressida Dick's sacking.

[ronaldo7]

Some of the facts in the case are absolutely astounding. Those officers working alongside him must have known and turned a blind eye.

Polis being Polis and backing each other up whatever they do.

The Met are just the big institution in the UK for other forces to follow.

No doubt we'll hear of other cases in other forces, but, hopefully not as bad as this one.

[Pretty Boy]

Is there an independent body that crimes committed by a police officer can be or are reported to? It seems bizarre that someone accused of crimes like this would be investigated by his peers.

I know that there was a bit debate on another thread when I posted about the safeguarding organisation in place to handle accusations of abuse in the Catholic church in Scotland but in the case of the Police surely such a system is a must. Having a police officer investigate another police officer is surely as big a conflict of interest as having a Bishop investigate a Priest?

[neil7908]

Some of the facts in the case are absolutely astounding. Those officers working alongside him must have known and turned a blind eye.

Polis being Polis and backing each other up whatever they do.

The Met are just the big institution in the UK for other forces to follow.

No doubt we'll hear of other cases in other forces, but, hopefully not as bad as this one.

The really scary thing for me is that personally I wasn't surprised in the slightest.

Just another in the long list of institutions that have been either ignoring or actively complicit in systematic abuse.

I don't know what the answer is but this country is fast becoming a very unpleasant place to live.

[hibsbollah]

The really scary thing for me is that personally I wasn't surprised in the slightest.

Just another in the long list of institutions that have been either ignoring or actively complicit in systematic abuse.

I don't know what the answer is but this country is fast becoming a very unpleasant place to live.

I agree other organisations have behaved scandalously but the Met seems to have cultural problems going back years.

[neil7908]

I agree other organisations have behaved scandalously but the Met seems to have cultural problems going back years.

Yeah the Met seems particularly toxic.

Is there data from other forces around the UK? I'd like to understand if Police Scotland are in a similar position or if this is very much a Met issue.

[ronaldo7]

Yeah the Met seems particularly toxic.

Is there data from other forces around the UK? I'd like to understand if Police Scotland are in a similar position or if this is very much a Met issue.

I think the SG has to review the arrangements of met police attending events in Scotland, at least until they get their act together.

It'll be a while before they get through those 800 officers currently under investigation.

I'd be surprised if it's not filtered into police Scotland

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/yvettecoopermp/status/1615725386322550784?s=46&t=HXjakbCq4w_0bHAan8HlMQ

She’s not wrong. Won’t be long until the next big apology from the Met and more ‘lessons will be learnt’.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/yvettecoopermp/status/1615725386322550784?s=46&t=HXjakbCq4w_0bHAan8HlMQ

She’s not wrong. Won’t be long until the next big apology from the Met and more ‘lessons will be learnt’.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with her but Carick got the job and started his offenses when Blair was in charge. Nobody has done anything. The met has been a law upon itself, this can be seen in the protection of the incompetent Cressida Dick.

Hopefully this awful case causes change but I'm doubtful

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://twitter.com/yvettecoopermp/status/1615725386322550784?s=46&t=HXjakbCq4w_0bHAan8HlMQ

She’s not wrong. Won’t be long until the next big apology from the Met and more ‘lessons will be learnt’.


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When they say "lessons will be learnt". They really mean that they'll try harder to cover up their corruption, as opposed to addressing it. The MET is and always has been rotten to the core.

[ronaldo7]

When they say "lessons will be learnt". They really mean that they'll try harder to cover up their corruption, as opposed to addressing it. The MET is and always has been rotten to the core.

It certainly is. The days of trusting polis are long gone for me.

I heard a parent on the radio yesterday saying that he's told his daughters never to go into areas with a policeman without others, and to always get their numbers.

Here's another one.


"A chief inspector in the Metropolitan Police, accused of keeping a hidden room full of child pornography and boys' underwear, has 'been found dead at home'

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1615617279726682112

[Stairway 2 7]

Grouping all police officers as one is ridiculous. There are thousands of police good police officers and our country wood go to pot without them.

It's like blaming a political for a beast mp. It's how the party deals with it that matters. That's the problem here the Met dealt or didn't appallingly. They shouldn't be in charge of any reforms as they can't be trusted

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It certainly is. The days of trusting polis are long gone for me.

I heard a parent on the radio yesterday saying that he's told his daughters never to go into areas with a policeman without others, and to always get their numbers.

Here's another one.


"A chief inspector in the Metropolitan Police, accused of keeping a hidden room full of child pornography and boys' underwear, has 'been found dead at home'

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1615617279726682112

It's a shame, as there are genuinely good police officers in the world. The issues are ultimately institutional and systematic.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cressida Dick was one of the most Bentiest of Bent cops ever

she was more Bentier than a Fyfees banana

scandal after scandal during her stint

[Pretty Boy]

Grouping all police officers as one is ridiculous. There are thousands of police good police officers and our country wood go to pot without them.

It's like blaming a political for a beast mp. It's how the party deals with it that matters. That's the problem here the Met dealt or didn't appallingly. They shouldn't be in charge of any reforms as they can't be trusted

It's inevitable when systemic abuse happens on any scale though. That's true of everything from the Catholic church through the Scout movement with Barnardo's and the Seafarer's Society in between. The actions of a minority and the failures of those in positions of real power to do something meaningful about it tarnishes the reputation of the innocent majority.

It's arguably the reason this thread exists, even if it has become about a specific issue now. The vast, vast majority of men have never and will never commit a violent or sexual offence against a woman. The actions of those who do means that we are all in the position of being seen as potential rapists or abusers though. I know I'm not, the woman who passes me on a dimly lit street doesn't; I'm as likely to be as anyone else. Same applies to the Met and the Police more widely now. Your average 'bobby on the beat' is a decent sort trying to earn for his family, I can see why someone would be more distrustful in light of these revelations and the systemic failures that allowed such actions to go unpunished for a substantial period of time.

[Kato]

It's inevitable when systemic abuse happens on any scale though. That's true of everything from the Catholic church through the Scout movement with Barnardo's and the Seafarer's Society in between. The actions of a minority and the failures of those in positions of real power to do something meaningful about it tarnishes the reputation of the innocent majority.

It's arguably the reason this thread exists, even if it has become about a specific issue now. The vast, vast majority of men have never and will never commit a violent or sexual offence against a woman. The actions of those who do means that we are all in the position of being seen as potential rapists or abusers though. I know I'm not, the woman who passes me on a dimly lit street doesn't; I'm as likely to be as anyone else. Same applies to the Met and the Police more widely now. Your average 'bobby on the beat' is a decent sort trying to earn for his family, I can see why someone would be more distrustful in light of these revelations and the systemic failures that allowed such actions to go unpunished for a substantial period of time.Given the rhetoric around trans-issues it won't be long before every trans person is seen as a threat too.

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[wookie70]

Grouping all police officers as one is ridiculous. There are thousands of police good police officers and our country wood go to pot without them.

It's like blaming a political for a beast mp. It's how the party deals with it that matters. That's the problem here the Met dealt or didn't appallingly. They shouldn't be in charge of any reforms as they can't be trusted

I take your point but the problem is that he and other officers had reputations in the Police. Many officers have routinely ignored or covered up for them on multiple occasions and this is far from an isolated incident with 100s more still to investigate and many more in the past. It isn't just the rapist/abuser it is every officer that turned a blind eye and that will be a very large number when you consider how many other abuses and abusers we know about. There will also be many more abuses that are never reported. For me it is similar to when Priests were caught with child abuse. The organisation knew, many of those in the organisation and all were part of the cover up and it is legitimate to lose trust in a whole organisation and all those that work for it. Yes they may be innocent but there are decades worth of evidence of the MET and other forces with scandal after scandal, all widely known about in the job and all covered up. It would take a brave officer to break ranks and there are very few willing to do the right thing. I'm biased. I don't like the Police Force so my comments will have that bias inbuilt but as the years roll on my view deepens as we find out about more criminality and cover ups and as they continue to be the boot boys of government.

Our country is going to pot in terms of policing. Some of that is resources, some is the way resources are used but much is down to the fact you can't police with consent if you are a corrupt and bent organisation. Criminals can't police criminals.

The college of Police says this and in my view the Met in particular along with West Yorkshire have pretty much destroyed trust and confidence.
"The principle of policing by consent relies on the trust and confidence that the public has in the police service and the wider law enforcement community. "

[silverhibee]

You just have to look on YouTube and watch folk who do audits on Met police and other forces down South, these folk know more about the law than the officers do, they are bullies and tyrants and think they can get away with it, noticed today that one YouTuber has been barred from Blackpool for taking photos of something bbc were doing on the promenade in public space and when approached by a police officer he mistook her for a man and the reaction from her was way over the top.

Just my view, but police officers with criminal convictions shouldn’t be allowed to work in the police.

[AgentDaleCooper]

You just have to look on YouTube and watch folk who do audits on Met police and other forces down South, these folk know more about the law than the officers do, they are bullies and tyrants and think they can get away with it, noticed today that one YouTuber has been barred from Blackpool for taking photos of something bbc were doing on the promenade in public space and when approached by a police officer he mistook her for a man and the reaction from her was way over the top.

Just my view, but police officers with criminal convictions shouldn’t be allowed to work in the police.

i honestly can't see how anyone could disagree with that.

[archie]

I think there are a number of things at play here. The Met is a huge organisation and so is likely to have numerically more offenders. But there does appear to be a culture where really serious offenders can hide in plain sight. Personally I think there should be a root and branch external review of structures and processes. I can understand why women in particular would be afraid to approach the police. That can't be allowed to stand. As an aside, some years ago I was in a pub as part of a 'lock in'. I asked my London pal if they were concered about the police. Not really, he said, that's them at the bar!

[silverhibee]

i honestly can't see how anyone could disagree with that.

And yet the Met has 150 officers working that have a previous conviction.

[Paul1642]

i honestly can't see how anyone could disagree with that.

Whilst I agree for the most most part, not all convictions are equal. Someone convicted of a minor road traffic offence, public urination or similar in their teens probably shouldn’t be barred from entry several years later.

Same applies to an already serving and otherwise good officer who incurres a minor conviction.

When I say minor I really do mean minor though. Anything with pre meditated intent, serous violence, sexual offences of any nature and so on should be an immediate ref flag.

[Paul1642]

You just have to look on YouTube and watch folk who do audits on Met police and other forces down South, these folk know more about the law than the officers do, they are bullies and tyrants and think they can get away with it, noticed today that one YouTuber has been barred from Blackpool for taking photos of something bbc were doing on the promenade in public space and when approached by a police officer he mistook her for a man and the reaction from her was way over the top.

Just my view, but police officers with criminal convictions shouldn’t be allowed to work in the police.

Nonsense they do. They mostly spurt a load of incorrect crap with total confidence.

[Berwickhibby]

When they say "lessons will be learnt". They really mean that they'll try harder to cover up their corruption, as opposed to addressing it. The MET is and always has been rotten to the core.

Really.. based on a few rotten officers out of 28000

[Paul1642]

Really.. based on a few rotten officers out of 28000

Exactly. Pick any profession in the Uk with 250k staff and you’re going to get bad people. The Police don’t have a crystal ball and unless there is a warning sign can’t predict crimes being committed by serving officers any more then they can predict your house being broken into.

Ultimately all of these officers making the news have been successfully convicted because of good work by their colleagues.

For every bag egg there are 1000 good cops with best intentions.

[hibsbollah]

Exactly. Pick any profession in the Uk with 250k staff and you’re going to get bad people. The Police don’t have a crystal ball and unless there is a warning sign can’t predict crimes being committed by serving officers any more then they can predict your house being broken into.

Ultimately all of these officers making the news have been successfully convicted because of good work by their colleagues.

For every bag egg there are 1000 good cops with best intentions.

You have no idea how many bad eggs there are. Neither do I . It isn’t really the point. The Met were branded institutionally racist after Stephen Lawrence , and there’s enough evidence over the last fifty years that they are one of the most corrupt forces in the western world. It’s a rotten culture. Misogyny cases, the serial rapists, only become emboldened when they are allowed to get away with it. Otherwise why did the pics of the two murdered girls get posted online and shared thousands of times with no complaint being made for months? Obviously the Cressida Dick leadership was the low point, but that kind of proves the point, leadership comes from the top, and she was a ‘bad egg’, to use your phrase. Change the leadership, change the culture.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Really.. based on a few rotten officers out of 28000

Problem is, the "few rotten officers" are the one's who have weaselled their way to the top of the institution.

[Ozyhibby]

Lots of ‘you can’t tar them all with the same brush’ on this thread while saying the opposite on another thread.[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Lots of ‘you can’t tar them all with the same brush’ on this thread while saying the opposite on another thread.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People tarring with the same brush are wrong on both threads I'm sure you'll agree.

[Berwickhibby]

Lots of ‘you can’t tar them all with the same brush’ on this thread while saying the opposite on another thread.[emoji23]


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Not me ….I stand with the majority of police officers are hard working dedicated people trying to do their best.

[wookie70]

Really.. based on a few rotten officers out of 28000

You definition of a few must be very different from mine. 150 officers are not working in public facing roles due to sexual abuse complaints. How many other officers are covering up or are aware of their colleagues behaviours and are saying nothing. This is not a few bad apples and I can't recall similar proportions of these types of complaints against other professions perhaps outwith MPs and the clergy. There is clearly institutional problems with the Met around sexual abuse at worst or misogamy at best and racism. This is way beyond bad apples and outliers

[Berwickhibby]

You definition of a few must be very different from mine. 150 officers are not working in public facing roles due to sexual abuse complaints. How many other officers are covering up or are aware of their colleagues behaviours and are saying nothing. This is not a few bad apples and I can't recall similar proportions of these types of complaints against other professions perhaps outwith MPs and the clergy. There is clearly institutional problems with the Met around sexual abuse at worst or misogamy at best and racism. This is way beyond bad apples and outliers

Well different from yours, your constant anti police rhetoric on posts is apparent. My opinion why the police has attracted these sort of criminals is the complete drop in standards for entry, people being allowed to join with criminal convictions, poor educational standards with the minimum of vetting done on applicants. No continental check on serving officers which used to be inforce.

[hibsbollah]

Well different from yours, your constant anti police rhetoric on posts is apparent. My opinion why the police has attracted these sort of criminals is the complete drop in standards for entry, people being allowed to join with criminal convictions, poor educational standards with the minimum of vetting done on applicants. No continental check on serving officers which used to be inforce.

I am quite happy to say I have an anti-Met rhetoric, because I think they are a stinking rotten to the core organisation. I also have two close friends /relatives in other forces who are very fine people. In fact they have told me themselves the Met is riddled with corruption and some unsavory characters, even if I wasn’t aware of the countless stories that have become public over the years.

I recall you said you worked for the Met, so I understand it’s a difficult topic for you to be objective on.

[Berwickhibby]

I am quite happy to say I have an anti-Met rhetoric, because I think they are a stinking rotten to the core organisation. I also have two close friends /relatives in other forces who are very fine people. In fact they have told me themselves the Met is riddled with corruption and some unsavory characters, even if I wasn’t aware of the countless stories that have become public over the years.

I recall you said you worked for the Met, so I understand it’s a difficult topic for you to be objective on.

I personally did not this witness any of my colleagues in 10 years, but have no sympathy for any officer breaking the law and deserve the full punishment that can be imposed. It should be doubled imho if they have used their position as an officer to commit an offence.

[WeeRussell]

Well different from yours, your constant anti police rhetoric on posts is apparent. My opinion why the police has attracted these sort of criminals is the complete drop in standards for entry, people being allowed to join with criminal convictions, poor educational standards with the minimum of vetting done on applicants. No continental check on serving officers which used to be inforce.

But all of the above could be true and Wookie still be correct in his assessment too?

If anything you’re acknowledging that there is indeed a significant, systemic and deep-rooted problem with the organisation?

[Berwickhibby]

But all of the above could be true and Wookie still be correct in his assessment too?

If anything you’re acknowledging that their is indeed a significant, systemic and deep-rooted problem with the organisation?

I would definitely say when I transferred out the Metropolitan Police in 2001 standards had dropped greatly compared to when I joined.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I would definitely say when I transferred out the Metropolitan Police in 2001 standards had dropped greatly compared to when I joined.

I would agree with this. They're nowhere near as good at covering up their corruption as they were back in the day. Standards certainly dropped.

[blackpoolhibs]

You just have to look on YouTube and watch folk who do audits on Met police and other forces down South, these folk know more about the law than the officers do, they are bullies and tyrants and think they can get away with it, noticed today that one YouTuber has been barred from Blackpool for taking photos of something bbc were doing on the promenade in public space and when approached by a police officer he mistook her for a man and the reaction from her was way over the top.

Just my view, but police officers with criminal convictions shouldn’t be allowed to work in the police.

That police officer is called Joanne, she used to have the B&B 2 doors down from me, a really lovely girl.

I cant believe she acted like she did, but that guy needed a slap and Jo certainly wanted to do it. :greengrin

[wookie70]

Well different from yours, your constant anti police rhetoric on posts is apparent. My opinion why the police has attracted these sort of criminals is the complete drop in standards for entry, people being allowed to join with criminal convictions, poor educational standards with the minimum of vetting done on applicants. No continental check on serving officers which used to be inforce.

That just sounds like you are giving multiple reasons why the Met/Police is/are a cesspit and not that my views are incorrect. My anti police rhetoric comes from my view on how they operate, the way they bow to political pressure, the lack of self policing and covering up events like Hillsborough, the massive amounts of corruption in the 70s, the miners strike, impregnating women while under cover, racism, sexism etc etc. Some of my dislike actually comes from the underfunding and lack of support they get from the judicial system too and I would agree with some of the points you make regarding the reason the standards in officers is extremely poor.

I openly admit I don't like the Police. I would far rather I admired them and trusted them but they give me little reason to do so. I actually have a few pals that are officers and if I'm honest they don't seem to like the Police very much either. My dislike is for the Service rather than for every officer. As individuals I'll take them as I find them but I have to admit that the experience I have had is mixed and they appear to have a more than you would expect or want number in their ranks that make situations worse and are terrible communicators. There are of course others that are brilliant public servants.

[silverhibee]

That police officer is called Joanne, she used to have the B&B 2 doors down from me, a really lovely girl.

I cant believe she acted like she did, but that guy needed a slap and Jo certainly wanted to do it. :greengrin

The video went viral, she looked a very angry woman, the guy is now banned from Blackpool after that incident, police need to behave better than that, I’ll take your word that she is a lovely woman :thumbsup:

[silverhibee]

Nonsense they do. They mostly spurt a load of incorrect crap with total confidence.

Can’t post a link but type in Northern Audits on YouTube and check his latest video, two bully officers who do not know the law threatening the lad but don’t no what law it is to detain him, he is doing nothing illegal but police want his details or they will just use terrorism law but doesn’t no what section, if I was there inspector I would be so embarrassed that my officers were behaving like this.

[James310]

Can’t post a link but type in Northern Audits on YouTube and check his latest video, two bully officers who do not know the law threatening the lad but don’t no what law it is to detain him, he is doing nothing illegal but police want his details or they will just use terrorism law but doesn’t no what section, if I was there inspector I would be so embarrassed that my officers were behaving like this.

Have seen some of those videos and yes the police normally come across as clueless and overly aggressive.

Although I suspect it's not an every day occurrence for them so they may not know how to handle it correctly.

[silverhibee]

Have seen some of those videos and yes the police normally come across as clueless and overly aggressive.

Although I suspect it's not an every day occurrence for them so they may not know how to handle it correctly.

Doesn’t give the police the right to abuse their powers though.

This is happening all over the country, a police inspector charged for assaulting a young lad because he dared video a police station in Wales, and the inspector lost his job, there is a video of the incident, bullies who think they are untouchable.

[James310]

Doesn’t give the police the right to abuse their powers though.

This is happening all over the country, a police inspector charged for assaulting a young lad because he dared video a police station in Wales, and the inspector lost his job, there is a video of the incident, bullies who think they are untouchable.

No you are absolutely right. If the guys filming are breaking no laws they should be left alone.

[wookie70]

Can’t post a link but type in Northern Audits on YouTube and check his latest video, two bully officers who do not know the law threatening the lad but don’t no what law it is to detain him, he is doing nothing illegal but police want his details or they will just use terrorism law but doesn’t no what section, if I was there inspector I would be so embarrassed that my officers were behaving like this.

I am a photographer as a side line and security guards and the police are usually pretty clueless on the law in terms of photography from public areas or they are more interested in pushing the public around than upholding the law. I'm looking at a drone so am looking at the law. If his drone is under 250g, which it is according to the clip, then I think he can fly it where he fancies. There is a right to privacy though so when the police officer is talking about him zooming in through windows she has a point but should have left it after he confirmed he hadn't zoomed in. When he initially said he zoomed in he was referring to the footage he was shooting at that time. I very much doubt he broke the law though and this is just the authorities just doing the usual show of strength and noising up a citizen who will be delighted that he now has so many views for a video. Personally, I think the police officers were out of order and should be charged with wasting police time.

[stu in nottingham]

Two retired Met Police officers charged over child sex abuse images
https://news.sky.com/story/two-retired-met-police-officers-charged-with-offences-relating-to-child-sex-abuse-images-12790331

Met Police chief inspector arrested over child abuse images found dead
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64321188

The Met's hotline to report police officers for abuse and corruption received 700 calls in a single day after the PC David Carrick rape scandal
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11651609/The-Mets-hotline-report-police-abuse-received-700-calls-PC-David-Carrick-rape-scandal.html

Met Police culture of racism and sex abuse left black staff 'suicidal', serving officer claims
https://www.itv.com/news/london/2023-01-17/met-police-culture-of-racism-and-sex-abuse-left-black-staff-suicidal