Men’s curfew.

[AugustaHibs]

after the horrific murder of the woman down in London I’ve seen people seriously suggesting men should be put on curfews including an SNP MP.

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370373188539015172?s=21

Absolutely crazy

What are peoples thoughts on this?

[heretoday]

after the horrific murder of the woman down in London I’ve seen people seriously suggesting men should be put on curfews including an SNP MP.

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370373188539015172?s=21

Absolutely crazy

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Absolutely crazy as you say.

[CropleyWasGod]

Wasn't Jenny Jones being sarcastic, in response to the suggestion that women don't go out after dark?

[Jay]

I cant believe Hannah Bardel said that. That's mental.

[CropleyWasGod]

I cant believe Hannah Bardel said that. That's mental.

I think she's missed the point of what Jones was saying.:agree:

[weecounty hibby]

No dafter than just telling women that they shouldn't walk about after dark on their own or how to dress or how to avoid flirting or any of the other things to avoid men attacking them. As a man I probably didn't understand until very recently how bad it could get as a woman and how ludicrous the guidance is and its mostly directed at women who really aren't the problem.
I should say I don't advocate the curfew but the behavioural changes need to be on the part of men

[Hibrandenburg]

The suggestion has done its job in that countless males are now outraged by a suggestion that many males make to females.

Its male behaviour that needs to change and not that of women. By saying women shouldn't go out after a certain time men are saying we can't change our behaviour so you women have to change your's.

[AugustaHibs]

The suggestion has done its job in that countless males are now outraged by a suggestion that many males make to females.

Its male behaviour that needs to change and not that of women. By saying women shouldn't go out after a certain time men are saying we can't change our behaviour so you women have to change your's.

Difference is that she’s saying there should be a black and white curfew on all men. I’m all for education and men changing the way they view woman but thinking that a curfew would do anything other than just cause more issues is mental to me

[CropleyWasGod]

The suggestion has done its job in that countless males are now outraged by a suggestion that many males make to females.

Its male behaviour that needs to change and not that of women. By saying women shouldn't go out after a certain time men are saying we can't change our behaviour so you women have to change your's.

Boom. That was exactly her point. As ever, people read headlines, and little else.

[danhibees1875]

I didn't think that had stemmed from a serious suggestion to be honest, still not sure it wasn't said in jest (for want of a better word) in order to make a point. I thought the idea of a 6pm curfew was meant to help hold up a mirror for men to help understand what it's like to be a woman in terms of how they need/choose to alter their behaviours, particularly after dark, in order to maintain safety when going about their lives.


Obviously I think a 6pm curfew is a silly idea.

[CapitalGreen]

Absolutely crazy


That’s the point, it’s supposed to be read as an absolutely crazy suggestion being presented as an alternative solution in response to the equally crazy suggestion from the Met Police that woman just stop going out after dark.

But obviously in the modern age of twitter and the like, people just see a tweet or a headline and dive in two-footed with the outrage as has happened here.

[AugustaHibs]

Boom. That was exactly her point. As ever, people read headlines, and little else.

If you look at Hannah’s other tweets she’s being 100% serious and wants a curfew put in place

[AugustaHibs]

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370375394101235713?s=21

[Hibrandenburg]

Difference is that she’s saying there should be a black and white curfew on all men. I’m all for education and men changing the way they view woman but thinking that a curfew would do anything other than just cause more issues is mental to me

She was fishing and has caught a few Salmon(d)s.

[CapitalGreen]

If you look at Hannah’s other tweets she’s being 100% serious and wants a curfew put in place

Did you stop reading that tweet after the first sentence? I know education standards in Scotland have seemingly been slipping but the level of comprehension required to understand that point being made here really isn’t that high.

[CropleyWasGod]

If you look at Hannah’s other tweets she’s being 100% serious and wants a curfew put in place

I'm not talking about her. It looks as if she, like so many others, has missed the point of the Baroness' speech.

[Northernhibee]

That’s the point, it’s supposed to be read as an absolutely crazy suggestion being presented as an alternative solution in response to the equally crazy suggestion from the Met Police that woman just stop going out after dark.

But obviously in the modern age of twitter and the like, people just see a tweet or a headline and dive in two-footed with the outrage as has happened here.

100%. The exact same "suggestion" was made at the time of the Yorkshire Ripper, that telling women to stay at home is just as crazy at telling men to stay at home, it's the precise same idea.

It's something that requires looking beyond the tip of your own nose.

[AugustaHibs]

She was fishing and has caught a few Salmon(d)s.

Great idea for an MP to be ‘fishing’ on such a serious situation.

[CropleyWasGod]

Great idea for an MP to be ‘fishing’ on such a serious situation.

It's not her who's fishing . She's been caught :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Great idea for an MP to be ‘fishing’ on such a serious situation.

Yep, clever ploy to make some men think about their opinions and values by turning their own arguments against them. Maybe by being outraged for a few seconds you now have an inkling how it feels to be a woman being patronised by men.

[Sir David Gray]

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370375394101235713?s=21

Frightening that she's an MP to be honest.

No woman should feel unsafe to go out at night and there is no excuse for a woman being murdered, raped or feeling she cannot leave her own house - I want to be very unequivocal about that.

I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt with the first tweet that it may have been tongue in cheek, however her follow up tweet that you have posted would suggest she's entirely serious which is just utterly bonkers.

[AugustaHibs]

Yep, clever ploy to make some men think about their opinions and values by turning their own arguments against them. Maybe by being outraged for a few seconds you now have an inkling how it feels to be a woman being patronised by men.

Like I said I’m all for education and it is 100% needed as it must be horrific being a female and being terrified in so many situations. That being said, I don’t believe the correct way to go about this sort of thing is winding people up on Twitter,

I also know that previous things haven’t worked so I don’t know what the solution is.

Very tough one and it definitely needs addressed.

[heretoday]

The major brewers and distillers would never put up with a curfew.

[SteveHFC]

Some of the stuff being said on Twitter was mental.

Any man who walks their dog alone at night is upto no good. Any man who sits in a car park waiting to pick up someone is upto no good.

[Pretty Boy]

Women are constantly told they shouldn't go out after dark, shouldn't go out alone, shouldn't dress in a certain way, shouldn't talk to men, shouldn't have put themselves in a 'situation' etc etc. If it's not victim blaming then it's damn close to it. Whether the curfew is a serious suggestion or not (and the origin was definitely sarcasm) it doesn't feel nice as a man, almost like I am being blamed for something I didn't do. Maybe something for men to consider next time they say or think about saying any of the above to women.

I find it really dispirting that the reaction of a lot of men to women speaking out about their fears and experiences is to jump on the defensive and say 'but, but not all men'. We would be better served listening and trying to understand the topic from another point of view. I personally don't believe myself a threat to women but I am a potential threat. A lady passing me at night has almost certainly been subjected to harassment or worse at some point in her life. It's both understandable and acceptable for her to view me as a potential threat, she has the right and most probably the reason to do so.

[Northernhibee]

No woman should feel unsafe to go out at night and there is no excuse for a woman being murdered, raped or feeling she cannot leave her own house

There's also no argument that a woman should not leave her own house because she is a woman. Whether or not that was a serious suggestion from the MP, it's no more or no less valid than suggesting women shouldn't be out alone.

It is, in its most basic sense, victim blaming.

[Northernhibee]

Women are constantly told they shouldn't go out after dark, shouldn't go out alone, shouldn't dress in a certain way, shouldn't talk to men, shouldn't have put themselves in a 'situation' etc etc. If it's not victim blaming then it's damn close to it. Whether the curfew is a serious suggestion or not (and the origin was definitely sarcasm) it doesn't feel nice as a man, almost like I am being blamed for something I didn't do. Maybe something for men to consider next time they say or think about saying any of the above to women.

I find it really dispirting that the reaction of a lot of men to women speaking out about their fear and experiences is to jump on the defensive and say 'but, but not all men'. We would be better served listening and trying to understand the topic from another point of view. I know I personally don't believe myself a threat to women but a lady passing me at night has almost certainly been subjected to harassment or worse at some point in her life. It's both understandable and acceptable for her to view me as a potential threat, she has the right and most probably the reason to do so.

I spoke about the #metoo movement with my partner shortly after seing a Daniel Sloss show where he spoke about the behaviour that so many women face in their lives and also how inept the system is at dealing with when women raise this through our legal system. Naturally I won't go into this in any detail, but what she told me about stuff she'd had to put up with in a previous workplace and also whilst being out and about on an evening out is shocking. I've spoken to other female friends of mine and they, similarly, have stories that were shocking.

I only bring it up with friends who know me very well and would be comfortable talking about these things but almost every woman I've spoken to about this and listened to have a story to tell and they've either not seen the point in reporting it due to the way that things like this are handled in this country or if they have, it's been not dealt with well at all.

I completely get the idea of raising awareness through a headline grabbing statement such as "men curfew" and you just have to look at what certain Tory MPs and Nigel Farage have responded to this with on Twitter to suggest whose side you want to be on in this. Soon as you look past the headline it's a very well put statement.

[Hibrandenburg]

Like I said I’m all for education and it is 100% needed as it must be horrific being a female and being terrified in so many situations. That being said, I don’t believe the correct way to go about this sort of thing is winding people up on Twitter,

I also know that previous things haven’t worked so I don’t know what the solution is.

Very tough one and it definitely needs addressed.

If it's opened a few eyes to male hypocrisy on the subject then it's job done.

[Pretty Boy]

I spoke about the #metoo movement with my partner shortly after seing a Daniel Sloss show where he spoke about the behaviour that so many women face in their lives and also how inept the system is at dealing with when women raise this through our legal system. Naturally I won't go into this in any detail, but what she told me about stuff she'd had to put up with in a previous workplace and also whilst being out and about on an evening out is shocking. I've spoken to other female friends of mine and they, similarly, have stories that were shocking.

I only bring it up with friends who know me very well and would be comfortable talking about these things but almost every woman I've spoken to about this and listened to have a story to tell and they've either not seen the point in reporting it due to the way that things like this are handled in this country or if they have, it's been not dealt with well at all.

I completely get the idea of raising awareness through a headline grabbing statement such as "men curfew" and you just have to look at what certain Tory MPs and Nigel Farage have responded to this with on Twitter to suggest whose side you want to be on in this. Soon as you look past the headline it's a very well put statement.

I was indirectly involved in an incident years ago that split a friendship group into pieces. Some of the details still upset me to this day as it was a massive breach of trust.

There was no justice to be had and the individual involved committed another equally serious act on another person he knew before finally getting put behind bars. He was also attacked by a group of men near to his home around about the same time but I wouldn't know anything about that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Women are constantly told they shouldn't go out after dark, shouldn't go out alone, shouldn't dress in a certain way, shouldn't talk to men, shouldn't have put themselves in a 'situation' etc etc. If it's not victim blaming then it's damn close to it. Whether the curfew is a serious suggestion or not (and the origin was definitely sarcasm) it doesn't feel nice as a man, almost like I am being blamed for something I didn't do. Maybe something for men to consider next time they say or think about saying any of the above to women.

I find it really dispirting that the reaction of a lot of men to women speaking out about their fears and experiences is to jump on the defensive and say 'but, but not all men'. We would be better served listening and trying to understand the topic from another point of view. I personally don't believe myself a threat to women but I am a potential threat. A lady passing me at night has almost certainly been subjected to harassment or worse at some point in her life. It's both understandable and acceptable for her to view me as a potential threat, she has the right and most probably the reason to do so.

Good post.

[Hibrandenburg]

I spoke about the #metoo movement with my partner shortly after seing a Daniel Sloss show where he spoke about the behaviour that so many women face in their lives and also how inept the system is at dealing with when women raise this through our legal system. Naturally I won't go into this in any detail, but what she told me about stuff she'd had to put up with in a previous workplace and also whilst being out and about on an evening out is shocking. I've spoken to other female friends of mine and they, similarly, have stories that were shocking.

I only bring it up with friends who know me very well and would be comfortable talking about these things but almost every woman I've spoken to about this and listened to have a story to tell and they've either not seen the point in reporting it due to the way that things like this are handled in this country or if they have, it's been not dealt with well at all.

I completely get the idea of raising awareness through a headline grabbing statement such as "men curfew" and you just have to look at what certain Tory MPs and Nigel Farage have responded to this with on Twitter to suggest whose side you want to be on in this. Soon as you look past the headline it's a very well put statement.

Another good post.

[Keith_M]

...

Its male behaviour that needs to change and not that of women. By saying women shouldn't go out after a certain time men are saying we can't change our behaviour so you women have to change your's.


This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.


Personally, I refuse to change my behaviour, as I have never in my life even considered harassing a woman, and I'd imagine that applies to most of the men I know. The only change I could make would be a negative one.

[Pretty Boy]

This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.


Personally, I refuse to change my behaviour, as I have never in my life even considered harassing a woman, and I'd imagine that applies to most of the men I know. The only positive change I could make would be a negative one.

I don't think anyone would suggest that you or I need to change our behaviour if we are 100% confident we are squeaky clean and do nothing to either harass or facilitate the harassment of women.

If we are talking about being viewed as a potential threat tk a woman then the responsibility for that lies squarely with other men. If men stopped harassing, abusing and raping women then we would stop being seen as a threat. Maybe the change in behaviour we need to make is to challenge behaviour that normalises sexual offences. Be that pulling up a mate for saying 'I would' or being brave enough to shout down an overtly sexist joke.

[Keith_M]

Coincidentally, Marina Hyde just shared a very strange,and what must have been upsetting, experience she had yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street

I'm not exactly clear why the guy was annoyed at her, but she doesn't seem to know either. I'm honestly surprised nobody did anything to help her and her wee boy.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what's happening just now, including in the post I was responding to.

I get that the curfew was 'sarcasm' on the part of the peer, and it definitely did it's job, but I'm talking about the way many people are discussing issues like this, which I find unfortunate.




I agree, and I've actually done this on a number of occasions, to the extent that I was involved in an 'incident' that had to be investigated by the police when a group of guys was harassing a couple on a tram in Munich. They were both offensive to the woman because of her gender and her race, as well as humiliating the guy.

I'm maybe reading it wrong but I don't think that post suggests all men need to change their behaviour just that it's the behaviour of men that needs to change.

I'd say that is unarguably true. The only way violence, sexual and otherwise, against women stops is if the men perpetrating it, normalising it and facilitating it stop doing it. If women stop going out at night, start dressing in a way that is deemed more conservative and whatever else there will still be rape and violence.

I've no reason at all to doubt anyone on here when they say they can't do more. It's heartening to read but for as long as this issue impacts all women then it impacts all men too. All men are seen as potential offenders not because of the action of women but because of the action of other men.

[Northernhibee]

This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.


Personally, I refuse to change my behaviour, as I have never in my life even considered harassing a woman, and I'd imagine that applies to most of the men I know. The only change I could make would be a negative one.



I had this train of thought before I seen that show by Daniel Sloss (and I put that up there as the best gig I've ever been to, not just in terms of comedy but the tone and the scripting of that entire show was a ****ing masterpiece - but it led me to think about if I've done enough in calling out the behaviour of other men within my social group who seen themselves as "a bit of a lad" or a "top ****ger" - comments such as "you can't **** them more than twice as that makes them think you like them". It's easy enough to think "what a creep", but hadn't really piped up beforehand.

I'm also not saying that someone who likes to go and sleep around consentiually is a sexual predator waiting to happen, sex is fantastic and if both parties are aware that it's no strings attached one night stand territory then what's the issue, but have I probably said to someone "dude, you're being a bit of a creep" before enough? Probably not.

BTW I'm in no way saying that you've not done enough or anything like that - I don't know you and wouldn't suggest as such. It's just something of a bit of self reflection from having a similar "not all men" attitude in the past as it turns out I felt I could actually do more.

[Berwickhibby]

So has opinion changed on Patrick Grady .... only a few days ago people were posting they had seen worse on a Friday night in Meadowban

[Hibrandenburg]

This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.


Personally, I refuse to change my behaviour, as I have never in my life even considered harassing a woman, and I'd imagine that applies to most of the men I know. The only change I could make would be a negative one.

I see it a bit like racism, for change to happen there has to be a no tolerance mindset. It's not good enough to say I'm not a racist but instead people need to be anti-racist. Same applies to misogyny, people need to be outspoken about casual misogyny where and when it occurs.

The curfew ploy has highlighted male hypocrisy, hopefully it's opened some mens eyes to everyday problems that women have, even if those men never were or never considered themselves to be part of the problem.

[Keith_M]

I see it a bit like racism, for change to happen there has to be a no tolerance mindset. It's not good enough to say I'm not a racist but instead people need to be anti-racist. Same applies to misogyny, people need to be outspoken about casual misogyny where and when it occurs.

The curfew ploy has highlighted male hypocrisy, hopefully it's opened some mens eyes to everyday problems that women have, even if those men never were or never considered themselves to be part of the problem.


There's been a few replies to my post along the same lines, that we need to call out the behaviour of other men, so I should answer that.

I totally agree... and I actually have done this myself on a number of occasions, even though it has got me into trouble. As I mentioned in my comment on Marina Hyde's terrible experience, I was shocked that nobody tried to help her out, as I couldn't imagine myself keeping quiet.


So I have two comments on this: Maybe more men do need to speak out... but we're not all beasts that verbally or physically abuse women.

[Northernhibee]

There's been a few replies to my post along the same lines, that we need to call out the behaviour of other men, so I should answer that.

I totally agree... and I actually have done this myself on a number of occasions, even though it has got me into trouble. As I mentioned in my comment on Marina Hyde's terrible experience, I was shocked that nobody tried to help her out, as I couldn't imagine myself keeping quiet.


So I have two comments on this: Maybe more men do need to speak out... but we're not all beasts that verbally or physically abuse women.

Like with many other things we can say that or we can show that.

[Keith_M]

We can either say our opposition to that, or we can show it.


I'm not sure I understand your comment.

[Northernhibee]

I'm not sure I understand your comment.

It's perception. As it stands, a woman may not feel comfortable walking alone at night because there are enough men who may cause them harm. If you respond to their discomfort with "aye, but I'm not part of the problem", that does nothing to address the problem.

If you actually do something about it by calling out sleazy behaviour or someone who is an ******** towards women, then you're providing visible opposition to that behaviour. Not only are you actually showing that you're not part of the problem, you're doing something to stop it and potentially nipping further, escalated behaviour in the bud. Nobody is born a sexual harrasser or the like, it's learned and if there are enough men who are willing to say "dude, you're being a prick" then that makes a difference. It's being part of the solution.

[Keith_M]

It's perception. As it stands, a woman may not feel comfortable walking alone at night because there are enough men who may cause them harm. If you respond to their discomfort with "aye, but I'm not part of the problem", that does nothing to address the problem.

If you actually do something about it by calling out sleazy behaviour or someone who is an ******** towards women, then you're providing visible opposition to that behaviour. Not only are you actually showing that you're not part of the problem, you're doing something to stop it and potentially nipping further, escalated behaviour in the bud. Nobody is born a sexual harrasser or the like, it's learned and if there are enough men who are willing to say "dude, you're being a prick" then that makes a difference. It's being part of the solution.



I think you maybe need to read my whole comment, as I thought I covered that quite well.

[Pretty Boy]

I read a decent if imperfect analogy on Twitter earlier which I quite liked.

Imagine there is game show called 'Not All Snakes' in which contestants were confronted by 10 tanks of snakes, 9 of which contained non venomous snakes and 1 that contained venenous snakes. The contestants go along the line deciding whether to plunge their hands into the tank. The show has a disclaimer that states that they accept no responsibility if you are bitten because you knew some snakes were venenous so really it's your fault. Would you go on? If you did would you view all the snakes as harmless or all of them as potentially lethal? It's a bit like Russian Roulette, 5 of the chambers are completely harmless but you can't tell which is which so you treat them all with suspicion and fear.

[lapsedhibee]

I read a decent if imperfect analogy on Twitter earlier which I quite liked.

Imagine there is game show called 'Not All Snakes' in which contestants were confronted by 10 tanks of snakes, 9 of which contained non venomous snakes and 1 that contained venenous snakes. The contestants go along the line deciding whether to plunge their hands into the tank. The show has a disclaimer that states that they accept no responsibility if you are bitten because you knew some snakes were venenous so really it's your fault. Would you go on? If you did would you view all the snakes as harmless or all of them as potentially lethal? It's a bit like Russian Roulette, 5 of the chambers are completely harmless but you can't tell which is which so you treat them all with suspicion and fear.

Slightly imperfect. All men are snakes!

[Northernhibee]

I think you maybe need to read my whole comment, as I thought I covered that quite well.

But you see, the solution has to come from somewhere.

Very few sexual assault cases that go to court end up in a conviction as it's very difficult to prove consent or not.

Of all the cases that have been reported, only a few percent of that end up in court in the first place. (I forget the percentages, but it's not far off single figures).

As a result, only a small percentages of cases are actually ever reported through official lines in the first place.

The law does not protect women. The law does not do enough to challenge sexual harrassment, assault or rape.

As PB has said above, it just takes a tiny amount of offenders in a large group to challenge someones safety. I've not actually said that you were guilty of not doing that, if you'd read my post fully I've not implied that at all. I'm pleased to see that more people in fact are challenging behaviour and hadn't really seen that initial post. It feels like more people are trying to make a difference. Still not enough do IMO.

As it stands though, there are way too many men who say "it's not all men" without really considering the role they can play in positively challenging what causes things like a "men curfew" to trend.

[Keith_M]

Slightly imperfect. All men are snakes!


I suppose that's a wee variation on the 'all men are *********s' mantra.

:greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

But you see, the solution has to come from somewhere.

Very few sexual assault cases that go to court end up in a conviction as it's very difficult to prove consent or not.

Of all the cases that have been reported, only a few percent of that end up in court in the first place. (I forget the percentages, but it's not far off single figures).

As a result, only a small percentages of cases are actually ever reported through official lines in the first place.

The law does not protect women. The law does not do enough to challenge sexual harrassment, assault or rape.

As PB has said above, it just takes a tiny amount of offenders in a large group to challenge someones safety. I've not actually said that you were guilty of not doing that, if you'd read my post fully I've not implied that at all. I'm pleased to see that more people in fact are challenging behaviour and hadn't really seen that initial post.

As it stands though, there are way too many men who say "it's not all men" without really considering the role they can play in positively challenging what causes things like a "men curfew" to trend.

From memory 3 out 4 sexual assaults/rapes go unreported and les than 1% are stranger attacks

[Lendo]

This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.


Personally, I refuse to change my behaviour, as I have never in my life even considered harassing a woman, and I'd imagine that applies to most of the men I know. The only change I could make would be a negative one.

...and there is the problem that you’re conveniently skipping past, most men you know, not all men. So there is a change you could make, you could be calling out this small majority of men you know for their behaviour.

[Hibrandenburg]

There's been a few replies to my post along the same lines, that we need to call out the behaviour of other men, so I should answer that.

I totally agree... and I actually have done this myself on a number of occasions, even though it has got me into trouble. As I mentioned in my comment on Marina Hyde's terrible experience, I was shocked that nobody tried to help her out, as I couldn't imagine myself keeping quiet.


So I have two comments on this: Maybe more men do need to speak out... but we're not all beasts that verbally or physically abuse women.

Anyone who believes all men are beasts seriously need their heads looking at. That we're all potentially beasts is another argument.

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyone who believes all men are beasts seriously need their heads looking at. That we're all potentially beasts is another argument.

Zero Tolerance ran a high profile campaign years ago. One of their slogans was "all men are potential rapists". In terms of engaging with "decent" men, I felt at the time that was a big mistake.

[wookie70]

This is one part of the debate that concerns me.

When distressing subjects like this are discussed, the inference from many people seems to be that ALL men are to blame, and ALL men need to change their behaviour.



I'm a classic loony lefty in most respects and remember arguing strongly that you can't blame the whole Muslim Faith for the actions of some of their members. It was a fairly typical argument made at the time and applies to many other topics around controversial subjects too.

I think that the people leading this campaign, one which is entirely valid and one I hope succeeds, needs to be careful about not losing men who are well behaved towards women by tarring our whole gender with the same brush. There is a need for that initial shock and I get the curfew headlines etc but a gentler collaborate approach may be needed to win this. I see many parallels with BLM because the attitudes are societal and historical.

I have tried to intervene in an apparent fight with a man and woman and they have both turned on me. I would be very wary about doing it again and if I saw someone acting inappropriately towards a woman I am honest enough to admit I would think about my own safety before intervening and I am not sure if I would intervene if I deemed it dangerous.

One of the stories our group of friends likes to tell is of one of the boys telling a bloke in our local to mind his behaviour towards the woman he was with. He and his mates left shortly afterwards but returned with axes and knives and started an almighty fight in the pub injuring quite a few of the group who were with the bloke who had stood up for the woman. The guy was with the travelling community and so was the woman with him and they closed ranks.

This is a so ingrained in culture it is not easy to shift and not every man likes to get involved in conflict. We should all be able to support women and advocate for a better world for them though.

Where I wholeheartedly agree with the movement is that women should be treated better, that advertisers need to stop using women as objects of desire and that we try to catch as many men who are guilty of offences and deal with the. That includes lesser offences.

I think education is key too but lets be honest Johnson is PM and has a terrible record with the women in his life, Salmond was our last male FM and the murder that started the recent publicity was committed by a member of the Police Force. If society is to change perhaps the quickest way is to choose leaders and community representatives that live the values we want in society. I'd love to see a gentle peace loving PM who respected women and people of all faiths and races but of course we already know what happened to the Labour leader with those values.

[wookie70]

So has opinion changed on Patrick Grady .... only a few days ago people were posting they had seen worse on a Friday night in Meadowban


That was me that posted that comment and the rest of the post was about not condoning the behaviour. It was more about politics than it was about men or in that case men and women's behaviour.
Saying that my post in the thread you mentioned was flippant and while in many ways it wasn't related ie the victim being a man and the alleged offenders being women it was a poor tone and something I will reflect on.

[EI255]

after the horrific murder of the woman down in London I’ve seen people seriously suggesting men should be put on curfews including an SNP MP.

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370373188539015172?s=21

Absolutely crazy

What are peoples thoughts on this?Good. Means I'll be able to skip the night time dug walk.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

It's nearly 8pm. I hope all the guys reading this are at the very least heading home for the evening.

:greengrin

[Skol]

I am wondering how a curfew for men would sit alongside the freedom to self identify as a woman?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The subject of a male curfew famously became an issue during the Yorkshire Ripper investigation, when senior police officers advised women not to be out after dark. Women's groups protested, arguing women should not be confined to the home when the culprit was male. Aside from the moral problem of placing a curfew on all men for the actions of a serial killer, it would be impossible to police. In a democracy it's impossible to enforce such a policy: just lock at the problems we've had enforcing lockdown.

[Since90+2]

Genuinely one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

Thankfully it would never even become close to being considered but the fact an elected politician is even discussing it as 'worth considering" is genuinely scary.

[hibsbollah]

In the wider context of there being an epidemic of violence against women, as a man I’m not particularly offended or feel victimized by the suggestion of a curfew. I’m sure Piers Morgan and the gammon factory will be in full seethe mode about it tomorrow. There’s bigger things to be worried about, like, women getting actually murdered.

[lapsedhibee]

In the wider context of there being an epidemic of violence against women, as a man I’m not particularly offended or feel victimized by the suggestion of a curfew. I’m sure Piers Morgan and the gammon factory will be in full seethe mode about it tomorrow. There’s bigger things to be worried about, like, women getting actually murdered.

Yup.

[Future17]

What a strange thread – it’s hard to know where to begin.

What I will say is that I think Hannah Bardell has misunderstood multiple aspects of this, not least the police advice she appears to be unhappy about.

[Sir David Gray]

In the wider context of there being an epidemic of violence against women, as a man I’m not particularly offended or feel victimized by the suggestion of a curfew. I’m sure Piers Morgan and the gammon factory will be in full seethe mode about it tomorrow. There’s bigger things to be worried about, like, women getting actually murdered.

I don't see how being concerned about the suggestion of all men being under a curfew lessens the concern that people have about women being murdered.

It's a ridiculous suggestion and it only serves to detract from the very serious issue of male violence against women and the conversation we should be having about how to tackle it.

A curfew would also achieve nothing as the only men who would comply with such an order pose no threat to women in the first place.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't see how being concerned about the suggestion of all men being under a curfew lessens the concern that people have about women being murdered.

It's a ridiculous suggestion and it only serves to detract from the very serious issue of male violence against women and the conversation we should be having about how to tackle it.

A curfew would also achieve nothing as the only men who would comply with such an order pose no threat to women in the first place.

Like others, I think you've misunderstood what's happened here. The Baroness raised it in the Lords as a direct response to the suggestion that women should stay in after dark. She wasn't actually proposing a curfew, it was merely shining a light on that sort of nonsense thinking.

The SNP woman, however, thought she was being serious. That's the scary bit 🙄

[One Day Soon]

In the wider context of there being an epidemic of violence against women, as a man I’m not particularly offended or feel victimized by the suggestion of a curfew. I’m sure Piers Morgan and the gammon factory will be in full seethe mode about it tomorrow. There’s bigger things to be worried about, like, women getting actually murdered.


Agree.

I actually think that the routine nature of the way in which male violence of various types against women - from your red top front page news items like murders - through to things like how closely behind a woman a man walks on an empty or dark street, means that the proposition of a male curfew is a completely legitimate way of banging the table to make people stop and think.

The original suggestion wasn't serious, it was meant to draw a parallel. Bardell's response appears to have been serious. But actually both of these serve the purpose demonstrated by this discussion. It is being discussed and perhaps at least some people who weren't before are now aware of the much more fearful, restricted and conditional basis on which half the population feels it has to live in a wide range of circumstances because of the behaviour of a large number of men - both the actual evil ones and the unthinking, unintentional ones.

And it's selfish of me perhaps but if it also helps make the world a safer place to some extent for my wife and daughter in particular then good.

[Sir David Gray]

Like others, I think you've missed the point. The Baroness raised it in the Lords as a direct response to the suggestion that women should stay in after dark. She wasn't actually proposing a curfew, it was merely shining a light on that sort of nonsense thinking.

The SNP woman, however, thought she was being serious. That's the scary bit 🙄

I've not missed the point, I understand the point being made by most people is a flippant one in response to those who say women not going out in the dark is the solution to stopping them being murdered or raped. As a flippant remark I've no problem with it at all and completely oppose any suggestion that a woman is somehow to blame for being attacked just because she was walking alone at night.

However there are people (like an elected MP) who appear to be putting this curfew idea forward as a serious suggestion. As a man who poses no risk to women, I do have a problem with such a proposal which is why I replied to the poster who said he wasn't bothered by the suggestion of a male curfew due to the wider context of women being murdered.

[Future17]

Like others, I think you've misunderstood what's happened here. The Baroness raised it in the Lords as a direct response to the suggestion that women should stay in after dark. She wasn't actually proposing a curfew, it was merely shining a light on that sort of nonsense thinking.

The SNP woman, however, thought she was being serious. That's the scary bit 🙄

From what I've read online about what she said, it seems she also didn't understand the police advice she was apparently unhappy about.

[hibsbollah]

Agree.

I actually think that the routine nature of the way in which male violence of various types against women - from your red top front page news items like murders - through to things like how closely behind a woman a man walks on an empty or dark street, means that the proposition of a male curfew is a completely legitimate way of banging the table to make people stop and think.

The original suggestion wasn't serious, it was meant to draw a parallel. Bardell's response appears to have been serious. But actually both of these serve the purpose demonstrated by this discussion. It is being discussed and perhaps at least some people who weren't before are now aware of the much more fearful, restricted and conditional basis on which half the population feels it has to live in a wide range of circumstances because of the behaviour of a large number of men - both the actual evil ones and the unthinking, unintentional ones.

And it's selfish of me perhaps but if it also helps make the world a safer place to some extent for my wife and daughter in particular then good.

Yes, as a father of two daughters it’s something I don’t want to think about too much. I had a good chat with my son earlier, he suggested himself that if he found himself in a situation where he’s walking home and a woman’s walking in front of him alone, he’d be more conscious to cross the road or otherwise avoid any situation where she might feel nervous. Especially if he’s in a group of his mates. A small thing perhaps but I liked it that he was taking responsibility for others feelings. A conversation we should be having.

[Hibrandenburg]

Zero Tolerance ran a high profile campaign years ago. One of their slogans was "all men are potential rapists". In terms of engaging with "decent" men, I felt at the time that was a big mistake.

Yes, it sounds like something a militant feminist would say and probably not a great PR slogan and is more likely to alienate your average male, even if it's likely true.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's nearly 8pm. I hope all the guys reading this are at the very least heading home for the evening.

:greengrin

I've been at home since 18:00 with my pinny on.

[Hibrandenburg]

Agree.

I actually think that the routine nature of the way in which male violence of various types against women - from your red top front page news items like murders - through to things like how closely behind a woman a man walks on an empty or dark street, means that the proposition of a male curfew is a completely legitimate way of banging the table to make people stop and think.

The original suggestion wasn't serious, it was meant to draw a parallel. Bardell's response appears to have been serious. But actually both of these serve the purpose demonstrated by this discussion. It is being discussed and perhaps at least some people who weren't before are now aware of the much more fearful, restricted and conditional basis on which half the population feels it has to live in a wide range of circumstances because of the behaviour of a large number of men - both the actual evil ones and the unthinking, unintentional ones.

And it's selfish of me perhaps but if it also helps make the world a safer place to some extent for my wife and daughter in particular then good.

Good post and basically what I was trying to say.

[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210312/3aa92fcba3eba5929a35cc28d02f3f54.png

I find it funny that so many are so upset by the suggestion that if it is good for the goose, maybe it is the gander that should suffer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AugustaHibs]

Hannah bardell asking for opinions on how to change things, is that not what she’s paid for? She’s gone crazy and there’s no defending it

[Rumble de Thump]

Advising people to avoid walking alone in the dark, if at all possible, is generally sound advice. Especially if there's a murderer known to be on the loose.

[Since90+2]

Advising people to avoid walking alone in the dark, if at all possible, is generally sound advice. Especially if there's a murderer known to be on the loose.

Yup.

[lapsedhibee]

Advising people to avoid walking alone in the dark, if at all possible, is generally sound advice. Especially if there's a murderer known to be on the loose.

Not sure that the advice given was that people should avoid walking alone - wasn't the advice given that women should avoid walking alone? :dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

Advising people to avoid walking alone in the dark, if at all possible, is generally sound advice. Especially if there's a murderer known to be on the loose.

There were nearly 700 murders in England and Wales last year. There's always a murderer on the loose.

Incidentally 90% of said murderers are men.

[Mon Dieu4]

I agree with the vast majority of what's been said on here, the one thing I haven't liked online is the feeling that men seem to feel safe walking about at all hours of the night, total pack of *****, there are plenty of places I wouldn't fancy walking through late at night and I also don't like it if anyone gets too close for comfort either but that feeling must be 100 fold for a lady

[Rumble de Thump]

There were nearly 700 murders in England and Wales last year. There's always a murderer on the loose.

Incidentally 90% of said murderers are men.

And the advice is always sound.

[Future17]

There were nearly 700 murders in England and Wales last year. There's always a murderer on the loose.

Incidentally 90% of said murderers are men.

This is getting silly now. It reads like people are desperate to make a point of showing support for someone who was making a point they didn't fully understand.

I'm not disputing there's a wider conversation to be had about society's attitudes towards the opposite gender, but exploiting this tragedy to do so feels wrong on many levels.

[neil7908]

And the advice is always sound.

Maybe we should do something more to stop the people committing these crimes so this advice isn't so relevant in the future?

I think your statement doesn't need to be made to be honest - we all know this. The question women and others are asking is how we get to a better place.

Let's say everyone takes your advice and doesn't go out after 5pm alone in winter. Do you think the murderers and people committing the rapes, assaults etc will just go out home and watch telly?

[Pretty Boy]

This is getting silly now. It reads like people are desperate to make a point of showing support for someone who was making a point they didn't fully understand.

I'm not disputing there's a wider conversation to be had about society's attitudes towards the opposite gender, but exploiting this tragedy to do so feels wrong on many levels.

I don't think it's silly or exploitative.

It's a response to a point that in the context of this discussion really didn't need to be made.

[Rumble de Thump]

Maybe we should do something more to stop the people committing these crimes so this advice isn't so relevant in the future?

I think your statement doesn't need to be made to be honest - we all know this. The question women and others are asking is how we get to a better place.

Let's say everyone takes your advice and doesn't go out after 5pm alone in winter. Do you think the murderers and people committing the rapes, assaults etc will just go out home and watch telly?

It's not exactly my advice, is it? I have been attacked when walking alone at night in London. One of my friends was attacked when walking alone at night in London. She was attacked by a 13-year-old girl with a knife. It's not always possible to avoid walking alone at night. Saying that people are safer if they can possibly avoid it is stating the obvious, but so is stating that some people need to change their behaviour and that some behaviour and attitudes need to be called out. It might not seem obvious to everyone. It's still worth having the discussion.

[Keith_M]

Anyone who believes all men are beasts seriously need their heads looking at. That we're all potentially beasts is another argument.


This is along the same lines as the argument that I read a few years back that all male children are potential rapists.

My opinion of that was that anybody that thought that way was sick in the head and should get some therapy.

[Hibrandenburg]

This is along the same lines as the argument that I read a few years back that all male children are potential rapists.

My opinion of that was that anybody that thought that way was sick in the head and should get some therapy.

All children are potentially everything. The effects of the combination between nature and nurture are multifaceted.

[Keith_M]

All children are potentially everything. The effects of the combination between nature and nurture are multifaceted.


So all humans are potentially anti-semites, murderers, torturers, nazis, burglars, rapists, child-molesters...


I suggest everybody phones their children and check what they're up to today, because you just never know.

[Pretty Boy]

What percentage of murder victims are male?

In the last decade about 69%.

[Hibrandenburg]

So all humans are potentially anti-semites, murderers, torturers, nazis, burglars, rapists, child-molesters...


I suggest everybody phones their children and check what they're up to today, because you just never know.

Basically yes. Children aren't born any of these things you mention. They might have the genetic set-up that creates a higher potential for them to become those things but it's the nurture side of our lives that are the triggers.

[Future17]

I don't think it's silly or exploitative.

It's a response to a point that in the context of this discussion really didn't need to be made.

The police advice that provoked this reaction was given in the context of there potentially being a murderer of women operating in the local area. Why don't you think that's a point that needs to be made? :confused:

[Keith_M]

I decided to ask my wife her opinion on the police advice given that, as there was possibly a guy running round that had murdered a woman, then women should take special care in going out after dark in that area.

Her response was 'fair enough'.


It's a bit like advising people to lock their doors, in case of intruders. Nobody's for a minute suggesting that it's OK that we have have to do that, but the fact is that there are bad people out there, so it seems like a reasonable precaution.

[Pretty Boy]

The police advice that provoked this reaction was given in the context of there potentially being a murderer of women operating in the local area. Why don't you think that's a point that needs to be made? :confused:

Because there is a far wider context at play.

Women have given each other that advice for decades out of necessity. I give that advice to my own partner when she is out without me; 'don't walk home alone', 'give me a phone if you are going to be late', 'if you need money for a taxi just let me know', 'text me when you are leaving' etc etc.

The Police advice may be sound as a reaction to a singular incident but it feeds into a wider societal problem. The burden of not being attacked is placed onto women. Look at the comparative reaction to a non serious suggestion that innocent men shouldn't go out after dark. Hardly anyone would argue that is an actual solution to the problem but telling women not to go out alone at night is.

If anyone really believes this is a response to one piece of Police advice and one incident, even if that is what provoked it, then they are looking at it through too narrow a lens.

[Keith_M]

Because there is a far wider context at play.

Women have given each other that advice for decades out of necessity. I give that advice to my own partner when she is out without me; 'don't walk home alone', 'give me a phone if you are going to be late', 'if you need money for a taxi just let me know', 'text me when you are leaving' etc etc.

The Police advice may be sound as a reaction to a singular incident but it feeds into a wider societal problem. The burden of not being attacked is placed onto women. Look at the comparative reaction to a non serious suggestion that innocent men shouldn't go out after dark. Hardly anyone would argue that is an actual solution to the problem but telling women not to go out alone at night is.

If anyone really believes this is a response to one piece of Police advice and one incident, even if that is what provoked it, then they are looking at it through too narrow a lens.


But giving people advice that they should take care because there are monsters out there does not mean that anybody is suggesting that the situation is acceptable.

FWIW, I give the same kind of advice to my son, as males are much more likely than females to be attacked on a night out... or murdered (as you already mentioned).

[Pretty Boy]

But giving people advice that they should take care because there are monsters out there does not mean that anybody is suggesting that the situation is acceptable.

FWIW, I give the same kind of advice to my son, as males are much more likely than females to be attacked on a night out... or murdered (as you already mentioned).

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Surely as a society it's a good thing if we have these didcussions and strive for a day when we don't need to give that advice though? I was called silly earlier for suggesting that 'there are always murderers out there' but it seems I'm not the only one who believes that given at least 2 of us regularly advise our family members to be vigilant and careful.

I'm bowing out of this now but I'd finish by saying that saying 'not all men' today is comparable to saying 'all lives matter' a few months ago. No one would argue that there isn't an inherent truth in the statement but it's not something that needs to be said at this exact moment in time.

[Rumble de Thump]

Because there is a far wider context at play.

Women have given each other that advice for decades out of necessity. I give that advice to my own partner when she is out without me; 'don't walk home alone', 'give me a phone if you are going to be late', 'if you need money for a taxi just let me know', 'text me when you are leaving' etc etc.

The Police advice may be sound as a reaction to a singular incident but it feeds into a wider societal problem. The burden of not being attacked is placed onto women. Look at the comparative reaction to a non serious suggestion that innocent men shouldn't go out after dark. Hardly anyone would argue that is an actual solution to the problem but telling women not to go out alone at night is.

If anyone really believes this is a response to one piece of Police advice and one incident, even if that is what provoked it, then they are looking at it through too narrow a lens.

As the suggestion of a male curfew (be it a serious suggestion or just a way of making a wider point) was the direct reponse to the reports of the police advice to Clapham residents, it was obviously worth discussing the advice as that's what the OP was all about.

[Keith_M]

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Surely as a society it's a good thing if we have these didcussions and strive for a day when we don't need to give that advice though? I was called silly earlier for suggesting that 'there are always murderers out there' but it seems I'm not the only one who believes that given at least 2 of us regularly advise our family members to be vigilant and careful.

I'm bowing out of this now but I'd finish by saying that saying 'not all men' today is comparable to saying 'all lives matter' a few months ago. No one would argue that there isn't an inherent truth in the statement but it's not something that needs to be said at this exact moment in time.



:aok:

[lord bunberry]

I think it’s absolutely right that women should be safe to go out at night, but the reality is probably different. Rapists and sex pests won’t pay a blind bit of notice to any campaigns to change men’s behaviour and that’s where the problem lies. I have a daughter and in the current climate I wouldn’t want her walking home at night on her own. She’s too young for that right now, but if she wasn’t, I’d always make sure she got a taxi home. When she gets older I will make sure she has an account with a taxi company in order to ensure she gets one.
I sincerely hope attitudes of some men change and women can come and go as they please without having to worry about some filthy ******* attacking or abusing them.

[neil7908]

I think it’s absolutely right that women should be safe to go out at night, but the reality is probably different. Rapists and sex pests won’t pay a blind bit of notice to any campaigns to change men’s behaviour and that’s where the problem lies. I have a daughter and in the current climate I wouldn’t want her walking home at night on her own. She’s too young for that right now, but if she wasn’t, I’d always make sure she got a taxi home. When she gets older I will make sure she has an account with a taxi company in order to ensure she gets one.
I sincerely hope attitudes of some men change and women can come and go as they please without having to worry about some filthy ******* attacking or abusing them.

But here's the problem. Are taxis safe? John Worboys may have committed over 100 rapes according to police.

I'm not having a go at you BTW. I think you've highlighted how tough it is for women. I'm sure many that took a journey with him thought they were doing the safe thing by not walking home at night, following common sense advice etc. And it didn't help them.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Surely as a society it's a good thing if we have these didcussions and strive for a day when we don't need to give that advice though? I was called silly earlier for suggesting that 'there are always murderers out there' but it seems I'm not the only one who believes that given at least 2 of us regularly advise our family members to be vigilant and careful.

I'm bowing out of this now but I'd finish by saying that saying 'not all men' today is comparable to saying 'all lives matter' a few months ago. No one would argue that there isn't an inherent truth in the statement but it's not something that needs to be said at this exact moment in time.

Great post, agree completely.

I’d also add that just because all man aren’t rapists, doesn’t mean a man can’t do things to make women feel safer and help change attitudes and behaviors.

[lapsedhibee]

Great post, agree completely.

I’d also add that just because all man aren’t rapists, doesn’t mean a man can’t do things to make women feel safer and help change attitudes and behaviors.

:agree: Giving a wide berth when overtaking, even crossing to the other side of the road if appropriate, doesn't add anything worth saving to your journey time.

[Keith_M]

...

I’d also add that just because all man aren’t rapists, doesn’t mean a man can’t do things to make women feel safer and help change attitudes and behaviors.



:agree:

[lord bunberry]

But here's the problem. Are taxis safe? John Worboys may have committed over 100 rapes according to police.

I'm not having a go at you BTW. I think you've highlighted how tough it is for women. I'm sure many that took a journey with him thought they were doing the safe thing by not walking home at night, following common sense advice etc. And it didn't help them.
Yes you’re right as unfortunately there will be men like that driving taxis as well. Anyone getting into a taxi should take a picture of the plate and send it to a friend before they set off, and make sure the driver sees you doing it.

[Rumble de Thump]

When I was at uni the uni advised the male students to mindful of keeping distance if they saw a female ahead of them on the way home at night - cross to the other side of the road, not get too close etc, so the females wouldn't feel threatened. The uni also put on a mini bus that would take female students into town on certain nights and pick them up and drop them off at their doors whenever they wanted to go home. It would be great if a service like that wasn't needed but it was certainly appreciated and used by a lot of the female students.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: Giving a wide berth when overtaking, even crossing to the other side of the road if appropriate, doesn't add anything worth saving to your journey time.

And encouraging our male offspring to do the same. That's part of the solution IMO.

I asked my youngest yesterday if he does that. His answer was along the lines of "um yeah...why wouldn't I?" in a way that told me it was a stupid question. Although he made me feel small 😏 it was encouraging to hear.

[lord bunberry]

And encouraging our male offspring to do the same. That's part of the solution IMO.

I asked my youngest yesterday if he does that. His answer was along the lines of "um yeah...why wouldn't I?" in a way that told me it was a stupid question. Although he made me feel small 😏 it was encouraging to here.
I think that’s the most important thing that needs to be done. I’m really encouraged by my daughter’s attitude to things like race and sexuality. Kids today are much more enlightened than we were at the same age. It starts at home, but it’s also taught at school. It gives me hope that we can make the world a better place.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that’s the most important thing that needs to be done. I’m really encouraged by my daughter’s attitude to things like race and sexuality. Kids today are much more enlightened than we were at the same age. It starts at home, but it’s also taught at school. It gives me hope that we can make the world a better place.

Unfortunately there's still a lot of people who describe such enlightenment as "Political correctness gone mad".

[lord bunberry]

Unfortunately there's still a lot of people who describe such enlightenment as "Political correctness gone mad".
Sadly you’re right. Lots of the bad attitudes are picked up from parents.

[CropleyWasGod]

Unfortunately there's still a lot of people who describe such enlightenment as "Political correctness gone mad".

Oh get with it, Granda. It's the woke culture now.

😋

[Andy74]

It is men that are most likely to be murdered and most likely to be murdered in a public place.

I get that women might physically feel more exposed but the statistics show that they aren’t.

I’m not sure this is a man / woman thing and an example of where all men should be looking to change their behaviour.

It is people of any gender that feel the need to attack or murder anyone else that need to alter their behaviour but how do we do that? That particular human fault has been around since humans have been here.

[wookie70]

And encouraging our male offspring to do the same. That's part of the solution IMO.

I asked my youngest yesterday if he does that. His answer was along the lines of "um yeah...why wouldn't I?" in a way that told me it was a stupid question. Although he made me feel small 😏 it was encouraging to hear. That is good to hear and I would think any reasonable man would want to know about simple steps we can take to make women feel safer. Perhaps a campaign along those lines telling men what simple steps to take would be better and gain more traction than pointing the finger at a whole gender.

[lapsedhibee]

A bit unfair, no? That suggests that we don't care the rest of the time. How can you know that?

A wise deletion!

[CropleyWasGod]

A wise deletion!

Indeed. Hackles were rising 😁

[Keith_M]

If the 'Men's curfew' is ever put into law, I'm going to ask Eddie Izzard for a loan of a dress...


:duck:















:greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

If the 'Men's curfew' is ever put into law, I'm going to ask Eddie Izzard for a loan of a dress...


:duck:













:greengrin

What’s wrong with the ones you already have.,. Bloody typical... any excuse for a new frock 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Keith_M]

What’s wrong with the ones you already have.,. Bloody typical... any excuse for a new frock 🤣🤣🤣🤣



Damnit, I forgot you'd already seen the incriminating photos!


That was a one-off, Officer, honestly

:embarrass

[Ozyhibby]

Priti Patel’s stormtroopers doing a fine job tonight.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

Protist Patel’s stormtroopers doing a fine job tonight.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm conflicted about this. Their right to protest vs the need for safety. Is the police's response what we wanted in Glasgow last week?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm conflicted about this. Their right to protest vs the need for safety. Is the police's response what we wanted in Glasgow last week?

To be honest I think the police in Glasgow can’t really have done much more. Wading into a crowds like that would likely cause more harm than good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IberianHibernian]

It is men that are most likely to be murdered and most likely to be murdered in a public place.

I get that women might physically feel more exposed but the statistics show that they aren’t.

I’m not sure this is a man / woman thing and an example of where all men should be looking to change their behaviour.

It is people of any gender that feel the need to attack or murder anyone else that need to alter their behaviour but how do we do that? That particular human fault has been around since humans have been here.I agree with most if not all of this but the important thing is obviously how men and women can feel safe whereever they are .

[Bristolhibby]

I'm conflicted about this. Their right to protest vs the need for safety. Is the police's response what we wanted in Glasgow last week?

Easy to wade into a crowd of women rather than thousands of bevvied up Huns.

Cowards.

Handled terribly. Polite reminders to socially distance, keep presence low key. They would have all been home by now.

Now even Priti Patel is saying she needs to look into how things went down. You know they got it wrong.

The irony of women holding a vigil to a murdered sister, murdered allegedly by a serving Met Policeman, are pushed around by Met Policemen.

Terrible optics.

J

[neil7908]

I'm conflicted about this. Their right to protest vs the need for safety. Is the police's response what we wanted in Glasgow last week?

Stuff in Glasgow was a few levels above though. Buckfast fuelled party, zero distancing, sectarian chanting, fighting police, destroying property etc.

A million miles from last night. Glasgow was just a massive party on the streets. Last night looks like a socially distant, peaceful protest, taking place for very, very different reasons. Police have a tough job but its clear from the last couple of weeks they don't enforce the law fairly or evenly.

I've never had any massive issues in my dealings with the police up here but the Met seem to be a another story.

[overdrive]

I’m conflicted about the police response too. We are in the middle of a pandemic and public protests are not allowed for a reason. However, it seems to be fine to ignore this depending on how righteous the cause is, e.g. this and black lives matters.

On the other hand, I do think the response was a bit heavy handed.

[Rumble de Thump]

Stuff in Glasgow was a few levels above though. Buckfast fuelled party, zero distancing, sectarian chanting, fighting police, destroying property etc.

A million miles from last night. Glasgow was just a massive party on the streets. Last night looks like a socially distant, peaceful protest, taking place for very, very different reasons. Police have a tough job but its clear from the last couple of weeks they don't enforce the law fairly or evenly.

I've never had any massive issues in my dealings with the police up here but the Met seem to be a another story.

The event in Clapham wasn't meant to be a protest. It was meant to be a vigil in memory of a murdered woman. Some people seem to have turned up with other agendas, though, supposedly including anti-lockdown groups. Scenes of men attacking the police at a vigil seems bonkers. I don't envy the police.

[hibsbollah]

The event in Clapham wasn't meant to be a protest. It was meant to be a vigil in memory of a murdered woman. Some people seem to have turned up with other agendas, though, supposedly including anti-lockdown groups. Scenes of men attacking the police at a vigil seems bonkers. I don't envy the police.

I’m not sure what scenes you watched or which other agendas were at play.

The footage I saw was two red haired women standing still and quiet in front of candles and homemade placards. Then out of nowhere two cops start pulling them around violently and trampling the flowers that had been left. You see one of the lightly built women cuffed and lying face down on the ground shortly afterwards. There’s really no grey areas or contextualising you can do there, there’s full audio and as has been said it’s terrible optics when you consider the identity of the killer. There’s been a massively negative response from MPs. When Priti Patel criticises it you know it must be something unusual.

[neil7908]

The event in Clapham wasn't meant to be a protest. It was meant to be a vigil in memory of a murdered woman. Some people seem to have turned up with other agendas, though, supposedly including anti-lockdown groups. Scenes of men attacking the police at a vigil seems bonkers. I don't envy the police.

Surely a vigil is a protest? I haven't seen anything about anti lockdown protesters attending, or anyone attacking police. I've had a Google as well and can't see anything on this.

Being a police officer is a very tough job, and as I've said, up here I've generally found the police fine to deal with but the Met (branded institutionally racist 20 years ago let's remember) seem a different beast. Just in the last few months we've had officers taking photos with the bodies of dead women and sharing with mates, one now charged with kidnap and murder of woman, and the scenes last night of them dragging women away from what seems a completely peaceful protest.

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely a vigil is a protest? I haven't seen anything about anti lockdown protesters attending, or anyone attacking police. I've had a Google as well and can't see anything on this.

Being a police officer is a very tough job, and as I've said, up here I've generally found the police fine to deal with but the Met (branded institutionally racist 20 years ago let's remember) seem a different beast. Just in the last few months we've had officers taking photos with the bodies of dead women and sharing with mates, one now charged with kidnap and murder of woman, and the scenes last night of them dragging women away from what seems a completely peaceful protest.

It's ironic that, in doing what they did, the police trampled on the flowers that had been laid.

[Crunchie]

It is men that are most likely to be murdered and most likely to be murdered in a public place.

I get that women might physically feel more exposed but the statistics show that they aren’t.

I’m not sure this is a man / woman thing and an example of where all men should be looking to change their behaviour.

It is people of any gender that feel the need to attack or murder anyone else that need to alter their behaviour but how do we do that? That particular human fault has been around since humans have been here.

!00%, as much as every decent human being out there wants to see zero violence towards anyone, with the best will in the world it's never going to happen. There's too much naivety out there.

[Velma Dinkley]

Surely a vigil is a protest? I haven't seen anything about anti lockdown protesters attending, or anyone attacking police. I've had a Google as well and can't see anything on this.

Being a police officer is a very tough job, and as I've said, up here I've generally found the police fine to deal with but the Met (branded institutionally racist 20 years ago let's remember) seem a different beast. Just in the last few months we've had officers taking photos with the bodies of dead women and sharing with mates, one now charged with kidnap and murder of woman, and the scenes last night of them dragging women away from what seems a completely peaceful protest.

A vigil is very different from a protest. The stuff about anti-lockdown types has been all over social media.

[overdrive]

I’m not sure what scenes you watched or which other agendas were at play.

The footage I saw was two red haired women standing still and quiet in front of candles and homemade placards. Then out of nowhere two cops start pulling them around violently and trampling the flowers that had been left. You see one of the lightly built women cuffed and lying face down on the ground shortly afterwards. There’s really no grey areas or contextualising you can do there, there’s full audio and as has been said it’s terrible optics when you consider the identity of the killer. There’s been a massively negative response from MPs. When Priti Patel criticises it you know it must be something unusual.

I’ve not seen the footage in question but I’m usually a bit sceptical of videos that show a seemingly heavy handed response from one side as you haven’t seen what has happened before the camera started recording. There was a protest at my work a few years ago and a video did the rounds on social media and mainstream media of a security guard being heavy handed and apparently unprovoked. What the video didn’t show but I saw was that just before this, the “victim” had been repeatedly spitting in the security guard’s face and that was totally unprovoked and actually his response was probably fairly measured.

[neil7908]

A vigil is very different from a protest. The stuff about anti-lockdown types has been all over social media.

Ah its on social media. It must be true then. Are you saying the young women getting grabbed and handcuffed by police were anti lockdown protesters then?

[hibsbollah]

I’ve not seen the footage in question but I’m usually a bit sceptical of videos that show a seemingly heavy handed response from one side as you haven’t seen what has happened before the camera started recording. There was a protest at my work a few years ago and a video did the rounds on social media and mainstream media of a security guard being heavy handed and apparently unprovoked. What the video didn’t show but I saw was that just before this, the “victim” had been repeatedly spitting in the security guard’s face and that was totally unprovoked and actually his response was probably fairly measured.

If the lightly built woman who was shortly afterwards lying face down and tied up had, for example, repeatedly spat in the arresting officers face, she would have to had got up, spat on him, turned round again, stood still for over ten seconds holding her placard while at the same time rearranging the floral display in front of her, while the same cop stood still for the same period of time, before he actually got round to being ragdolled around and tied up by the same cop. One of whose colleagues is the killer in the case that the protest was actually about.


So I’m confident we’re comparing two different situations, and in this case the Met just didn’t want to allow a peaceful protest to go ahead.

[Crunchie]

Ah its on social media. It must be true then. Are you saying the young women getting grabbed and handcuffed by police were anti lockdown protesters then?

As with every vigil/protest you will get agitators intent on giving the police a hard time, they love nothing more to get involved in the scenes we are witnessing. Young women are just as likely as young men to be amongst them.

[overdrive]

If the lightly built woman who was shortly afterwards lying face down and tied up had, for example, repeatedly spat in the arresting officers face, she would have to had got up, spat on him, turned round again, stood still for over ten seconds holding her placard while at the same time rearranging the floral display in front of her, while the same cop stood still for the same period of time, before he actually got round to being ragdolled around and tied up by the same cop. One of whose colleagues is the killer in the case that the protest was actually about.


So I’m confident we’re comparing two different situations, and in this case the Met just didn’t want to allow a peaceful protest to go ahead.

As I said, I’ve not seen the video you mention but in your last point, of course the Met didn’t want a peaceful protest to go ahead. It is currently illegal!

[hibsbollah]

As I said, I’ve not seen the video you mention but in your last point, of course the Met didn’t want a peaceful protest to go ahead. It is currently illegal!

:dunno: So was GeorgeSquare. It’s the reactions to the people in attendance that are different.

[Hibrandenburg]

!00%, as much as every decent human being out there wants to see zero violence towards anyone, with the best will in the world it's never going to happen. There's too much naivety out there.

I don't think anybody expects to achieve zero violence, but a change in men's attitude and behaviour towards women would be a good start.

[Bishop Hibee]

I came on here to check out what the discussion on this topic would be. First thought is that the title of the thread with its focus on men is unfortunate but perhaps indicative of the whole issue.

I work in early years. Our centre receives kids referred by health and social work. The level of domestic violence, the overwhelming majority male on female, is staggering. In the child protection training we do, which is top notch, you are told that pretty much every case will involve a level of domestic violence against women.

I’ve got 3 sons. I got brilliant modelling from my own dad that you respect women, he got that from his dad and I’ve passed it in to my boys. We need to emphasise in schools from an early age that male violence against women is unacceptable. It needs to be given the same high profile that anti-racism education is given. It may not work as there are still plenty racists out there but doing nothing is not an option.

[Speedy]

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Surely as a society it's a good thing if we have these didcussions and strive for a day when we don't need to give that advice though? I was called silly earlier for suggesting that 'there are always murderers out there' but it seems I'm not the only one who believes that given at least 2 of us regularly advise our family members to be vigilant and careful.

I'm bowing out of this now but I'd finish by saying that saying 'not all men' today is comparable to saying 'all lives matter' a few months ago. No one would argue that there isn't an inherent truth in the statement but it's not something that needs to be said at this exact moment in time.

Anyone suggesting women don't go out, as if that is a serious solution to the problem has their head in the sand so the curfew comment is a good one to raise debate.

But always with these things, it's important people don't get drawn into extremes. To use your analogy earlier - if you advised someone to avoid danger by not playing russian roulette then it would seem sensible advise.

Equally, to frame all men as potential attackers is thought provoking but divisive and you can see why some men would get defensive about it. If you were wary of a black person late at night then there's a good chance you're being raciat, if you're wary of a man late at night then I can understand why some would view that as sexist and unfair.

Main thing I'll take from this thread is that while I'm street wise enough to spot and avoid most threats when walking home alone, I've never given much thought that I would be perceived as a threat so will do more to help - cross the street, give more space when passing etc.

[heretoday]

The older I get the more vulnerable I feel walking about Edinburgh especially at night although I'm not doing much of that at the moment. All men and all women are vulnerable on the streets of our cities.
More bobbies on the beat would help.

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyone suggesting women don't go out, as if that is a serious solution to the problem has their head in the sand so the curfew comment is a good one to raise debate.

But always with these things, it's important people don't get drawn into extremes. To use your analogy earlier - if you advised someone to avoid danger by not playing russian roulette then it would seem sensible advise.

Equally, to frame all men as potential attackers is thought provoking but divisive and you can see why some men would get defensive about it. If you were wary of a black person late at night then there's a good chance you're being raciat, if you're wary of a man late at night then I can understand why some would view that as sexist and unfair.

Main thing I'll take from this thread is that while I'm street wise enough to spot and avoid most threats when walking home alone, I've never given much thought that I would be perceived as a threat so will do more to help - cross the street, give more space when passing etc.

:top marks

In the past year, we've become used to giving people space in the streets, so it shouldn't be a big deal.:aok:

[Ozyhibby]

The older I get the more vulnerable I feel walking about Edinburgh especially at night although I'm not doing much of that at the moment. All men and all women are vulnerable on the streets of our cities.
More bobbies on the beat would help.

Would it or is that just something people say? When we did have policemen walking beats, violent crime was much higher, so it couldn’t have been that effective?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[H18S NX]

If the lightly built woman who was shortly afterwards lying face down and tied up had, for example, repeatedly spat in the arresting officers face, she would have to had got up, spat on him, turned round again, stood still for over ten seconds holding her placard while at the same time rearranging the floral display in front of her, while the same cop stood still for the same period of time, before he actually got round to being ragdolled around and tied up by the same cop. One of whose colleagues is the killer in the case that the protest was actually about.


So I’m confident we’re comparing two different situations, and in this case the Met just didn’t want to allow a peaceful protest to go ahead....:top marks

[silverhibee]

Easy to wade into a crowd of women rather than thousands of bevvied up Huns.

Cowards.

Handled terribly. Polite reminders to socially distance, keep presence low key. They would have all been home by now.

Now even Priti Patel is saying she needs to look into how things went down. You know they got it wrong.

The irony of women holding a vigil to a murdered sister, murdered allegedly by a serving Met Policeman, are pushed around by Met Policemen.

Terrible optics.

J

But were they there for the lass who got murdereded, or because it was allegedly a policeman who killed her, it would seem a few last night have all ready made up there minds, who turns up to a vigil with ACAB. & Defund the Police banners, folk who didn't give a toss about the lass and were there to cause bother with the police, the police had asked them to move and they didn't do it, the police remove them, correct decision imo.

[silverhibee]

:dunno: So was GeorgeSquare. It’s the reactions to the people in attendance that are different.

Heads should have rolled in Scottish Police over the handling of what took place in Glasgow last week, it was f***ing embarrassing to watch our police stand back and allow fans to rampage through the streets and do nothing about under the present circumstances we all find our selfs in just now with covid.

The organisers of the vigil who when it was cancelled told people (I think) to donate money to a go fund me page rather than turn out for the vigil, plenty of warnings to folk to stay away from the vigil that was planned by organisers and the police and I'm sure social media as well, but these people decided to go anyway, during a pandemic to light a candle for a girl who has been murdered, they could have done that from home and also been safe at the same time.

Had the accused not been a policeman for the murder of this lass do you think there would have been vigils across the country, if it had been a joiner who is accused of the crime it would just be another statistic.

[lord bunberry]

I came on here to check out what the discussion on this topic would be. First thought is that the title of the thread with its focus on men is unfortunate but perhaps indicative of the whole issue.

I work in early years. Our centre receives kids referred by health and social work. The level of domestic violence, the overwhelming majority male on female, is staggering. In the child protection training we do, which is top notch, you are told that pretty much every case will involve a level of domestic violence against women.

I’ve got 3 sons. I got brilliant modelling from my own dad that you respect women, he got that from his dad and I’ve passed it in to my boys. We need to emphasise in schools from an early age that male violence against women is unacceptable. It needs to be given the same high profile that anti-racism education is given. It may not work as there are still plenty racists out there but doing nothing is not an option.
My partner works in one of these centres as well. The things she tells me are really shocking.

[hibsbollah]

Had the accused not been a policeman for the murder of this lass do you think there would have been vigils across the country.

I absolutely do believe that there would be, yes.

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/barristersecret/status/1371030760501747712?s=21

When we hear the rhetoric this week about longer sentences, have a look at this Twitter thread ( don’t know how to put it on in one) and you will understand what systemic underfunding has done to the criminal justice process as a whole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1371071586795720710

[Keith_M]

Presumably as part of the Reclaim Our Streets campaign, the main entrance to Queens Park in Glasgow has been dedicated as a memorial to a young woman that was horrifically raped and murdered in the park in 2008.

We passed it today and there's lots of ribbons and messages posted on the gates.

[Keith_M]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1371071586795720710


And yet, it's the police that are being criticised in the media.

What a crazy world

[Keith_M]

Seeing as the content is no longer about the (imaginary) curfew, could somebody maybe change the title of this thread, or should we start a new one?

:dunno:

[G B Young]

Presumably as part of the Reclaim Our Streets campaign, the main entrance to Queens Park in Glasgow has been dedicated as a memorial to a young woman that was horrifically raped and murdered in the park in 2008.

We passed it today and there's lots of ribbons and messages posted on the gates.

Moira Jones. As you say, a horrendous incident. I don't know if it's directly linked to the campaign (could it be the anniversary of her death?) but I know her family organise an annual memorial run/walk round the park in her honour.

Re the Clapham Common stuff, I thought the protest was officially called off (along with other similar events around the country) in the light of legal advice and that the vigil was going to take place in virtual/doorstep form (surely the sensible option in the current climate?). I'm unclear why folk still showed up. The hysteria seems OTT and calls for the Met chief to resign just plain daft.

[Since90+2]

Moira Jones. As you say, a horrendous incident. I don't know if it's directly linked to the campaign (could it be the anniversary of her death?) but I know her family organise an annual memorial run/walk round the park in her honour.

Re the Clapham Common stuff, I thought the protest was officially called off (along with other similar events around the country) in the light of legal advice and that the vigil was going to take place in virtual/doorstep form (surely the sensible option in the current climate?). I'm unclear why folk still showed up. The hysteria seems OTT and calls for the Met chief to resign just plain daft.

On your last point it's because we live in a culture where people always want to lash out and blame someone. The only person who deserves to be punished for this is the horrible ******* who killed the poor girl.

I'm not Cressida Dick's biggest fan but people calling for her to leave her post are just being completely unreasonable.

[Colr]

after the horrific murder of the woman down in London I’ve seen people seriously suggesting men should be put on curfews including an SNP MP.

https://twitter.com/hannahb4livimp/status/1370373188539015172?s=21

Absolutely crazy

What are peoples thoughts on this?

I think she was trying to make the point that men wouldn’t like it if they had to restrict their freedoms after nightfall the way women do to maintain their safety.

From the reactions, I think the point was well made.

[Rumble de Thump]

One of my friends was really good friends with Sarah Everard. We lit candles and had a chat last night. She told me a few stories about her and sent me some photos. It was pretty upsetting but really nice to see them looking so happy together.

She doesn't know anyone who went to Clapham Common last night and is quite upset with what she described as people hijacking a tribute to her friend.

[s.a.m]

I think she was trying to make the point that men wouldn’t like it if they had to restrict their freedoms after nightfall the way women do to maintain their safety.

From the reactions, I think the point was well made.
Yup.

[WeeRussell]

I’m all for people trying to address the issues and make females feel more comfortable everywhere in life, and making us men aware of what we can do to help. Some of the ‘laddish’ behaviour and **** jokes etc is definitely something that can be improved.. challenging as it is. In my opinion, and in my experience, it has improved a lot over the past few years. And perhaps it is some of the reactions on social media which has caused doubt over this.

However, I’m not sure about some of the rhetoric that has developed over the horrible incident down south... again probably because of social media. I just find myself unsure as to how the population of men can stop the complete sick, psychopathic monsters being like they are. There may well be cultural and ‘men’ issues coming to light as side stories to this... but much of the talk now seems to have turned into blaming men for the relatively small number of evil individuals in the world.

Like I say, highlight and address how women are made to feel because of men. I just don’t think linking it to the abduction and murder of the poor girl does it any favours. And I get that the conversation may have sprung from last week’s incident but some of it seems to have got out of hand where there’s now comments everywhere about men needing to listen and tell other men.. yes we can make the world a better place with education, but unless our friends are rapists and murderers, we can’t stop the evil of this world.

I understand it probably doesn’t come across very well and it’s easy to say being a man. Long story short, I guess I just don’t see these acts of evil as a gender issue. And never seen it coming that it would be made to be one if I’m honest.

(I would note that I am all for calling out ridiculous suggestions that women should just not go out after dark etc... so maybe my struggle to get my above point across was a waste of time given this is what the thread is about!!)

[Andy74]

I think she was trying to make the point that men wouldn’t like it if they had to restrict their freedoms after nightfall the way women do to maintain their safety.

From the reactions, I think the point was well made.

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m all for people trying to address the issues and make females feel more comfortable everywhere in life, and making us men aware of what we can do to help. Some of the ‘laddish’ behaviour and **** jokes etc is definitely something that can be improved.. challenging as it is. In my opinion, and in my experience, it has improved a lot over the past few years. And perhaps it is some of the reactions on social media which has caused doubt over this.

However, I’m not sure about some of the rhetoric that has developed over the horrible incident down south... again probably because of social media. I just find myself unsure as to how the population of men can stop the complete sick, psychopathic monsters being like they are. There may well be cultural and ‘men’ issues coming to light as side stories to this... but much of the talk now seems to have turned into blaming men for the relatively small number of evil individuals in the world.

Like I say, highlight and address how women are made to feel because of men. I just don’t think linking it to the abduction and murder of the poor girl does it any favours. And I get that the conversation may have sprung from last week’s incident but some of it seems to have got out of hand where there’s now comments everywhere about men needing to listen and tell other men.. yes we can make the world a better place with education, but unless our friends are rapists and murderers, we can’t stop the evil of this world.

I understand it probably doesn’t come across very well and it’s easy to say being a man. Long story short, I guess I just don’t see these acts of evil as a gender issue. And never seen it coming that it would be made to be one if I’m honest.

(I would note that I am all for calling out ridiculous suggestions that women should just not go out after dark etc... so maybe my struggle to get my above point across was a waste of time given this is what the thread is about!!)

The fact that we have reduced violent crime so much so far shows that we can do more to stop these things happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

The fact that we have reduced violent crime so much so far shows that we can do more to stop these things happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh absolutely. Things can and must continue to be done.

But do you think the general attitude and culture of men plays a part in the horrific attacks? I’m not saying it definitely doesn’t, genuinely interested.

Anyway, if the whole thing ends up raising awareness and some good comes from it then I guess we can live with being tarred with the monster brush for a bit.

It’s an emotional and complicated issue, and I wouldn’t want to end up coming across on the wrong side of the argument.. hence my weariness about my first post. But it’s hard to debate these issues in person during lockdown :)

[Since90+2]

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

Yup.

[Sir David Gray]

I’m all for people trying to address the issues and make females feel more comfortable everywhere in life, and making us men aware of what we can do to help. Some of the ‘laddish’ behaviour and **** jokes etc is definitely something that can be improved.. challenging as it is. In my opinion, and in my experience, it has improved a lot over the past few years. And perhaps it is some of the reactions on social media which has caused doubt over this.

However, I’m not sure about some of the rhetoric that has developed over the horrible incident down south... again probably because of social media. I just find myself unsure as to how the population of men can stop the complete sick, psychopathic monsters being like they are. There may well be cultural and ‘men’ issues coming to light as side stories to this... but much of the talk now seems to have turned into blaming men for the relatively small number of evil individuals in the world.

Like I say, highlight and address how women are made to feel because of men. I just don’t think linking it to the abduction and murder of the poor girl does it any favours. And I get that the conversation may have sprung from last week’s incident but some of it seems to have got out of hand where there’s now comments everywhere about men needing to listen and tell other men.. yes we can make the world a better place with education, but unless our friends are rapists and murderers, we can’t stop the evil of this world.

I understand it probably doesn’t come across very well and it’s easy to say being a man. Long story short, I guess I just don’t see these acts of evil as a gender issue. And never seen it coming that it would be made to be one if I’m honest.

(I would note that I am all for calling out ridiculous suggestions that women should just not go out after dark etc... so maybe my struggle to get my above point across was a waste of time given this is what the thread is about!!)

Good post.

I've read a lot of comments over the last few days (mainly on social media but also on here) along the lines of how non threatening men could do more to challenge the behaviour of other men towards women and basically if you're a man and you don't do this then you're basically part of the problem.

I wonder how those same people feel about all Muslims being held responsible for the terrorist attacks which get carried out by the extremist element of their faith.

I believe it's correct that we don't expect every single Muslim to take responsibility for Islamist terrorist attacks so why should men who have no desire to hurt or demean a woman take responsibility for the people who do behave in such a way? Surely the same principle applies.

The rapists, murderers, creeps and terrorists are the ones who need to be held responsible in both instances and I don't think it's right to hold innocent people to account for the actions of others.

[matty_f]

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

Finally someone speaking up for men, and on a thread sparked by a reaction to a woman being murdered.

I was worried that men were going to be ignored in all of this.

[Since90+2]

I wonder how those same people feel about all Muslims being held responsible for the terrorist attacks which get carried out by the extremist element of their faith.

I believe it's correct that we don't expect every single Muslim to take responsibility for Islamist terrorist attacks so why should men who have no desire to hurt or demean a woman take responsibility for the people who do behave in such a way? Surely the same principle applies.



Excellent point and completely agree.

It's wrong to suggest all Muslims carry some responsibility for the actions of a tiny minority of Islamic extremists.

It's also equally wrong to suggest all men carry some responsibility for the actions of an equally tiny minority of men.

[Crunchie]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1371071586795720710
We'll be told this was an isolated incident and everyone else was cuddling each other and crying silently, the screaming in the background was obviously the police putting the boot in, to coin a phrase from Jess Philips yesterday.

[Crunchie]

I don't think anybody expects to achieve zero violence, but a change in men's attitude and behaviour towards women would be a good start.

Where do you see this not happening exactly?

[lapsedhibee]

Finally someone speaking up for men, and on a thread sparked by a reaction to a woman being murdered.

I was worried that men were going to be ignored in all of this.

:greengrin

[Andy74]

Finally someone speaking up for men, and on a thread sparked by a reaction to a woman being murdered.

I was worried that men were going to be ignored in all of this.

It was to the point that men should change their behaviour - by giving women space and crossing the road etc.

Women are not at the greatest risk, men are. So it is relevant to whether we should be doing all these things to make women feel safer. If anything men should be making way for other men.

[CapitalGreen]

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

Is being murdered the only crime women are concerned about falling victim to when walking home alone?

[danhibees1875]

It was to the point that men should change their behaviour - by giving women space and crossing the road etc.

Women are not at the greatest risk, men are. So it is relevant to whether we should be doing all these things to make women feel safer. If anything men should be making way for other men.

I think when it comes to how individuals feel when out and walking the streets then it's a different scenario and one where I'd expect women to feel more frightened - apparent statistical likelihood or not.

As someone else said, if there's anything that I (as someone who isn't a threat but no one knows that) could take from this it's how I could make little adjustments in my behaviour to come across as less of a threat to others so they feel more at ease.

[matty_f]

It was to the point that men should change their behaviour - by giving women space and crossing the road etc.

Women are not at the greatest risk, men are. So it is relevant to whether we should be doing all these things to make women feel safer. If anything men should be making way for other men.

I think that’s missing the point spectacularly.

It’s about who is the greatest threat.

[CropleyWasGod]

Excellent point and completely agree.

It's wrong to suggest all Muslims carry some responsibility for the actions of a tiny minority of Islamic extremists.

It's also equally wrong to suggest all men carry some responsibility for the actions of an equally tiny minority of men.

Is this not missing the point?

It's not about men taking responsibility for the actions of a few, it's about men taking responsibility for changing the attitudes of many.

[Dinkydoo]

I actually allowed myself to get quite wound up over this after a few drinks on Friday. I think that the language being used by many right now is pretty unhelpful and devisive.

Scrolling through post after post on social media, from people who you consider close friends and family, that in an around-about way call you a rapist sympathiser just because you're not out protesting in the streets is really unpleasant. From what I can see, instead of rally people together to fight patriarchy in all its forms, it has put a lot of folk on the defensive and created a scenario where petty point-scoring has overtaken any real effort to stimulate change.

[Andy74]

I think that’s missing the point spectacularly.

It’s about who is the greatest threat.

That’s a different point and a more valid one but I think most people would struggle to be able to associate with the behaviour of murderers and see that as a ‘men’ issue which we can all do something about.

If I’m to go through life thinking I’m a perceived threat then I’m more of a perceived threat to other men than I am women, statistically.

[matty_f]

I actually allowed myself to get quite wound up over this after a few drinks on Friday. I think that the language being used by many right now is pretty unhelpful and devisive.

Scrolling through post after post on social media, from people who you consider close friends and family, that in an around-about way call you a rapist sympathiser just because you're not out protesting in the streets is really unpleasant. From what I can see, instead of rally people together to fight patriarchy in all its forms, it has put a lot of folk on the defensive and created a scenario where petty point-scoring has overtaken any real effort to stimulate change.

I don’t think that’s the case, and I honestly don’t mean this to sound patronising or insulting (i genuinely can’t think of another way to word it so please take my word that this isn’t meant like that at all) but people who are getting defensive about what’s being said aren’t understanding the message -and that could be because the message isn’t being out across well etc, but it’s evident that men are the problem in this situation.

A woman doesn’t get raped because she’s out alone, dressed “provocatively” or smiled at the wrong present. She gets raped because a man is a rapist.

The only way to stop/reduce rapes/sexual assaults/murders etc is for men (not women) to get their act together. And we do all have a part to play in that.

Whether that’s challenging attitudes (like making it ok to objectify a woman or calling out a mate when they make a creepy comment) or intervening when we see inappropriate behaviour, or even just understanding how our words and actions impact women, we are on the hook for that.

So nobody is saying all men are rapists or that no men are good men already doing the right things, but it is as clear as you could make it, by any measure, that there is a problem that men need to fix.

Women can’t stop men being rapists, and we shouldn’t expect women to modify their behaviour because some men can’t behave. That change needs to happen on men’s side.

[Hibrandenburg]

Where do you see this not happening exactly?

Are you seriously suggesting there is no difference in attitude towards women and men? Our society, whilst improvements have been made is still widely patriarchal and women are still widely seen as subservient. Around a third of women have admitted to suffering one form of domestic abuse from a partner who used violence and or mental abuse as a method of "keeping them in line", that's just the known cases and the actual figures are likely to be much higher.

Ours and other cultures have evolved from religions that teach that women are commodities and that violence and even murder are acceptable means of retaining the status quo and whilst laws and behaviour might have changed over the centuries, a watered down attitude that women need to be subservient to men still exists among many men and is the root source of most domestic violence.

Whilst many are arguing that males (especially young males) are more likely to suffer violence and murder than females, whilst true this is because of many different reasons including gang related violence, male v male ego and generally because men are less likely to avoid physical confrontation than women. We also need to remember that it is men who are almost exclusively the perpetrators of all violence. Also, it's not a competition to see which sex suffers more violence and can't be because it's not a level playing field because not only as mentioned already, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators but also the kind of violence acted upon men and women is different. Generally men don't get raped and although there have been cases of male rape victims, again the perpetrators have been almost exclusively other men. Sex trafficking is another crime that has almost exclusively female victims and male perpetrators with many more men paying money to make it a lucrative business for organised criminals.

Violent crime against women is different to violent crime against men in that most of it has its roots in cultural attitudes towards women. That's what needs to be changed.

[CapitalGreen]

That’s a different point and a more valid one but I think most people would struggle to be able to associate with the behaviour of murderers and see that as a ‘men’ issue which we can all do something about.

If I’m to go through life thinking I’m a perceived threat then I’m more of a perceived threat to other men than I am women, statistically.

Why do you keep talking solely about the issue of murder when the issue of woman’s safety covers a much wider range of crimes?

[Hibrandenburg]

I don’t think that’s the case, and I honestly don’t mean this to sound patronising or insulting (i genuinely can’t think of another way to word it so please take my word that this isn’t meant like that at all) but people who are getting defensive about what’s being said aren’t understanding the message -and that could be because the message isn’t being out across well etc, but it’s evident that men are the problem in this situation.

A woman doesn’t get raped because she’s out alone, dressed “provocatively” or smiled at the wrong present. She gets raped because a man is a rapist.

The only way to stop/reduce rapes/sexual assaults/murders etc is for men (not women) to get their act together. And we do all have a part to play in that.

Whether that’s challenging attitudes (like making it ok to objectify a woman or calling out a mate when they make a creepy comment) or intervening when we see inappropriate behaviour, or even just understanding how our words and actions impact women, we are on the hook for that.

So nobody is saying all men are rapists or that no men are good men already doing the right things, but it is as clear as you could make it, by any measure, that there is a problem that men need to fix.

Women can’t stop men being rapists, and we shouldn’t expect women to modify their behaviour because some men can’t behave. That change needs to happen on men’s side.

Good post.

[Keith_M]

Is this not missing the point?

It's not about men taking responsibility for the actions of a few, it's about men taking responsibility for changing the attitudes of many.


As this thread was started because of discussions around the horrific murder of an innocent woman in London, I'd like to ask a serious question...


What can the majority of us men (who most likely are fairly decent people) do to stop the monsters that murder and rape women?


Yes, I could cross the street or not walk too close to a woman at night, which could possibly make her marginally less nervous. I'm also very happy to do that and will try to remember this when I'm out. However, she's in no danger from me so it's not going to reduce the possibility of her actually being assaulted.

I could (and actually have done*) address other men's comments that are inappropriate. That might make some men marginally less likely to say inappropriate things in future, but it's not going to stop an evil murderer and/or rapist.




* On a work's night out, a contractor that had recently started working with us asked which of the women in the team was the 'office bike'. I told him that position was currently vacant and he's free to apply... but that I couldn't imagine there would be much demand for a d1ck like him (sarcasm and public humiliation are my go-to response in situations like that).

[matty_f]

That’s a different point and a more valid one but I think most people would struggle to be able to associate with the behaviour of murderers and see that as a ‘men’ issue which we can all do something about.

If I’m to go through life thinking I’m a perceived threat then I’m more of a perceived threat to other men than I am women, statistically.

That may be so, but men in general can do something about that. Women probably can’t, which is the point.

Ignoring the fact that men attack women because men also attack men is still spectacularly missing the point.

[Since90+2]

That may be so, but men in general can do something about that. Women probably can’t, which is the point.

Ignoring the fact that men attack women because men also attack men is still spectacularly missing the point.

Just because someone has another opinion, and I'd argue that opinion is being put across quite succinctly and politely, it doesn't mean they are "spectacularly missing the point" as you have claimed twice now.

[matty_f]

Just because someone has another opinion, and I'd argue that opinion is being put across quite succinctly and politely, it doesn't mean they are "spectacularly missing the point" as you have claimed twice now.

It does when they’re spectacularly missing the point.

Edit - that was a smart-arse answer and uncalled for.

In this case, i think it’s a fair comment because when the discussion is about violence against women and how it is men that need to change their behaviour, if your counter is “men get more violence against them” is missing the point. I’m sorry, there’s no other other way to put it.

For a start, as has been pointed out, it misses the fact that it’s almost exclusively men that commit the violence, so even if you wanted to take gender out of the equation, it’s still men that need to change.

But also to dismiss the notion that men should change because men are also victims to a higher degree than women, then it’s not only missing the point but also demeaning the actual issue being discussed.

It’s men suppressing women in favour of men.

It is spectacularly missing the point.

[lapsedhibee]

Just because someone has another opinion, and I'd argue that opinion is being put across quite succinctly and politely, it doesn't mean they are "spectacularly missing the point" as you have claimed twice now.

Inappropriate use of statistics is not really 'having another opinion' though.
There are more women than men living in Britain, you live in Britain, you're probably a woman.

[Since90+2]

It does when they’re spectacularly missing the point.

I think you are spectacularly missing the point.

[matty_f]

I think you are spectacularly missing the point.

I’ve edited my post because there was no need for my smart-arsed answer.

[Keith_M]

Moira Jones. As you say, a horrendous incident. I don't know if it's directly linked to the campaign (could it be the anniversary of her death?) but I know her family organise an annual memorial run/walk round the park in her honour.
....


Thanks, I just looked up the details of that and there seems to have been a spectacularly bad failure on the part of the authorities when they allowed the guy into the country in the first place.

He'd apparently had a history of assault (and other crimes) before he came to the UK.

I've just read through an article on her Mum's experience of the whole thing and it's quite harrowing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-53909462

[Dinkydoo]

I don’t think that’s the case, and I honestly don’t mean this to sound patronising or insulting (i genuinely can’t think of another way to word it so please take my word that this isn’t meant like that at all) but people who are getting defensive about what’s being said aren’t understanding the message -and that could be because the message isn’t being out across well etc, but it’s evident that men are the problem in this situation.

A woman doesn’t get raped because she’s out alone, dressed “provocatively” or smiled at the wrong present. She gets raped because a man is a rapist.

The only way to stop/reduce rapes/sexual assaults/murders etc is for men (not women) to get their act together. And we do all have a part to play in that.

Whether that’s challenging attitudes (like making it ok to objectify a woman or calling out a mate when they make a creepy comment) or intervening when we see inappropriate behaviour, or even just understanding how our words and actions impact women, we are on the hook for that.

So nobody is saying all men are rapists or that no men are good men already doing the right things, but it is as clear as you could make it, by any measure, that there is a problem that men need to fix.

Women can’t stop men being rapists, and we shouldn’t expect women to modify their behaviour because some men can’t behave. That change needs to happen on men’s side.No, I agree with every word of that... I don't think the message is being conveyed very well at all, at least within my social bubble.

People are (quite rightly) angry, but how I'm interpreting the debate is that you have one group of angry men and women shouting - "You need to sort out your mates, this is partially your fault" ... and another, all men (admitedly me, on Friday, ranting away at home) saying "Wow wtf, I'm actually sick of being tarred with this brush". Two groups of angry people, most of whom have never assaulted a woman, both trying to point score and attribute blame.

From my perspective, I do not understand the psychology behind what makes a person abduct, rape and murder another human being, so I really don't know how to help prevent that. I absolutely can however see that turning a blind eye to creepy male behaviour could be enabling, resulting in a real nasty piece of work going several steps further and physically harming someone.

In the past I have spoken out against friends at parties (remember those!) on the maybe two occassions I've witnessed someone just not taking a hint and leaving a girl alone. If that's all that people are really calling for then I think that's fine, but the problem is that from the language being used I felt that I'm somehow expected to tackle systemic misogny in the police force. I wish I could, but that is really out-with the sphere of my influence!

I didn't feel like this over the BLM movement. Is that because the language was better thought-out? Maybe less people spoke out. Maybe I also have less black people connected via social media, so I just didn't see it.

[superfurryhibby]

As this thread was started because of discussions around the horrific murder of an innocent woman in London, I'd like to ask a serious question...


What can the majority of us men (who most likely are fairly decent people) do to stop the monsters that murder and rape women?


Yes, I could cross the street or not walk too close to a woman at night, which could possibly make her marginally less nervous. I'm also very happy to do that and will try to remember this when I'm out. However, she's in no danger from me so it's not going to reduce the possibility of her actually being assaulted.

I could (and actually have done*) address other men's comments that are inappropriate. That might make some men marginally less likely to say inappropriate things in future, but it's not going to stop an evil murderer and/or rapist.




* On a work's night out, a contractor that had recently started working with us asked which of the women in the team was the 'office bike'. I told him that position was currently vacant and he's free to apply... but that I couldn't imagine there would be much demand for a d1ck like him (sarcasm and public humiliation are my go-to response in situations like that).

Good post and a question I am asking myself after reading the various answers on the past few pages.

I ask myself what drives a man to commit these horrific crimes. It's not just about attitudes surely, there has to be deeper underlying issues that make people act so brutally?

[WeeRussell]

Believe it not I really don’t want to sound wedged on the other side of this argument but I don’t accept that it’s the same as arguing against the BLM movement (albeit my issues may be more about the few posts I’ve seen on social media rather than what is intended).

BLM was clearly about anti-racism and helping to better the position of black people in the world. What I am seeing now isn’t “female lives matter” type messaging... but the emphasis is on “men are to blame”.

Again I’ll reiterate, if there is a campaign to sort male attitudes in general towards women out then I’m on board. And I fully accept we as men have a huge part to play. I just find it verging on perverse that the abduction and murder of a human being by a monster has turned into some form of “me too” movement for any woman that’s ever been wolf whistled at.

I’m maybe guilty of overthinking things, and that’s possibly partially because I usually find myself firmly on the side of the campaigners for these movements.. but I’m struggling to accept that rapists and killers like the one being tried for last week and the gender gap are strongly related, or even connected at all.

Edit - for the record, I’m not getting defensive on any of this, I fully accept that men can be right wan****. I’m just commenting on what I’ve observed so far. I am more than willing to listen to suggestions about what we can do to make women feel safer and more comfortable (there’s been a couple on this thread already - which is a couple more than I’ve seen from those on Instagram getting support because of their supposed clever analogies and attacks on men as a whole).

[matty_f]

Good post and a question I am asking myself after reading the various answers on the past few pages.

I ask myself what drives a man to commit these horrific crimes. It's not just about attitudes surely, there has to be deeper underlying issues that make people act so brutally?


There reasons are likely to be different in every case and will often be related to violence perpetrated against the offender etc, but the big issue is cultural in that women are still treated differently to men in a multitude of ways, virtually from birth they are treated differently from men.

If you think about toys - early on girls tend to get pink toys, dolls, prams, toy cookers or kitchen sets etc, boys get cars, action figures, tools.

Women are judged on their looks to a far higher degree than men - and they are objectified for men's gratification throughout their lives.

When there's no check on that, and where men are brought up in an environment where women are given labels like "slags" "piece of skirt" and so on, then it de-humanises them and makes violence against them easier.

I'm not doing the topic justice with that post but it's a cultural thing, one that most of us men have been born into and accepted without much challenge because a) we benefit from it, and b) until it's pointed out we don't think about it because we don't experience the downside to it, and c) because it's just the way it is so why would we think we were doing anything wrong?

There's the discussion on the main board about whether or not it's ok to comment on Natalie Sawyer's chest in a joking, light-hearted manner, and the answer is that it's not alright - do we think Natalie Sawyer would be ok with it? She might smile and shrug it off because over the years she's learned (like a lot of women, apparently, having read views on this type of thing and spoken to people about it a lot recently) that the easier option is to say it's ok than be criticised and called out for not going along with it (by men).

[matty_f]

Believe it not I really don’t want to sound wedged on the other side of this argument but I don’t accept that it’s the same as arguing against the BLM movement (albeit my issues may be more about the few posts I’ve seen on social media rather than what is intended).

BLM was clearly about anti-racism and helping to better the position of black people in the world. What I am seeing now isn’t “female lives matter” type messaging... but the emphasis is on “men are to blame”.

Again I’ll reiterate, if there is a campaign to sort male attitudes in general towards women out then I’m on board. And I fully accept we as men have a huge part to play. I just find it verging on perverse that the abduction and murder of a human being by a monster has turned into some form of “me too” movement for any woman that’s ever been wolf whistled at.

I’m maybe guilty of overthinking things, and that’s possibly partially because I usually find myself firmly on the side of the campaigners for these movements.. but I’m struggling to accept that rapists and killers like the one being tried for last week and the gender gap are strongly related, or even connected at all.

Edit - for the record, I’m not getting defensive on any of this, I fully accept that men can be right wan****. I’m just commenting on what I’ve observed so far. I am more than willing to listen to suggestions about what we can do to make women feel safer and more comfortable (there’s been a couple on this thread already - which is a couple more than I’ve seen from those on Instagram getting support because of their supposed clever analogies and attacks on men as a whole).

I get your point but isn't it relatively clear that women being attacked by men is wholly a problem with men? Not all men are attackers but nearly all attackers are men.

The way to address that issue is to confront men's attitudes and behaviour to women. If you can look in the mirror and know that you're a good man and do your bit, then that's great and you should be commended as not being part of the problem.

[Barney McGrew]

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

More women are raped or sexually assaulted generally and more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted in public places. Over 90% of attacks are on women, and virtually all of those are by men on women.

Murder is only a very, very small part of the issue.

[Crunchie]

Are you seriously suggesting there is no difference in attitude towards women and men? Our society, whilst improvements have been made is still widely patriarchal and women are still widely seen as subservient. Around a third of women have admitted to suffering one form of domestic abuse from a partner who used violence and or mental abuse as a method of "keeping them in line", that's just the known cases and the actual figures are likely to be much higher.

Ours and other cultures have evolved from religions that teach that women are commodities and that violence and even murder are acceptable means of retaining the status quo and whilst laws and behaviour might have changed over the centuries, a watered down attitude that women need to be subservient to men still exists among many men and is the root source of most domestic violence.

Whilst many are arguing that males (especially young males) are more likely to suffer violence and murder than females, whilst true this is because of many different reasons including gang related violence, male v male ego and generally because men are less likely to avoid physical confrontation than women. We also need to remember that it is men who are almost exclusively the perpetrators of all violence. Also, it's not a competition to see which sex suffers more violence and can't be because it's not a level playing field because not only as mentioned already, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators but also the kind of violence acted upon men and women is different. Generally men don't get raped and although there have been cases of male rape victims, again the perpetrators have been almost exclusively other men. Sex trafficking is another crime that has almost exclusively female victims and male perpetrators with many more men paying money to make it a lucrative business for organised criminals.

Violent crime against women is different to violent crime against men in that most of it has its roots in cultural attitudes towards women. That's what needs to be changed.

Things have changed at a phenomenal rate over the past 20 years alone, I've seen it at my workplace and I'm sure everyone else has too. I'll ask you again, where are you seeing the behaviour you described.

[WeeRussell]

I get your point but isn't it relatively clear that women being attacked by men is wholly a problem with men? Not all men are attackers but nearly all attackers are men.

The way to address that issue is to confront men's attitudes and behaviour to women. If you can look in the mirror and know that you're a good man and do your bit, then that's great and you should be commended as not being part of the problem.

And I get yours Matty, and pretty much agree with the above.

I think my only objection is the linking it to last week’s story as I say. I think you could flip the world around in terms of attitudes and culture and everything else.. and the proper monsters in the world will still act as they do, and it’ll still be women that are the easiest targets because these cowardly monsters are more likely to be physically stronger/attracted to them. Regardless of all that, my point is I’m not sure the messaging and campaign about our everyday attitudes should be connected to that poor woman’s death. I believe they are separate.

I suppose the argument on the other side is that if lunatics and wronguns grow up in a world where women are objectified - they are more likely to be driven towards these crimes? I’m no expert on anything, and certainly not on psychology. As I keep saying, I don’t want to keep arguing on the wrong side and genuinely interested in understanding things better. I just struggle to see how that tragic incident brought about an attack on men.

I guess one way or another it’s got us all talking and thinking about it though. And hopefully there is positive change on the horizon, be that culture, attitudes, law, or anything else.

[Andy74]

I get your point but isn't it relatively clear that women being attacked by men is wholly a problem with men? Not all men are attackers but nearly all attackers are men.

The way to address that issue is to confront men's attitudes and behaviour to women. If you can look in the mirror and know that you're a good man and do your bit, then that's great and you should be commended as not being part of the problem.

Matty, you make excellent points and I know what you mean but it is hugely complex and there is a danger that we are focusing one thing to address another and they are not necessarily linked.

One think we can't avoid is that men and women procreate. In order to assist with that we have been provided with certain hormones. Hormones that appear to work in different ways in different people.

One thing that will never change is the desire for procreation and the hormones we have for that also lead to enjoyment for the process, whether or not creation is the end goal.

A lot of the male behaviour that we talk about and that we are trying to address are when you come down to it, mating rituals or attempted mating rituals. Finding women attractive, finding parts of women's bodies attractive - that is nature and a lot of 'laddish' behaviour comes from that. channeling it in an appropriate way of course is something we all have to try and learn and can be improved upon I'm sure but you are fighting a bit with nature to control that - some people react differently to their hormones and we all know different people have very different approaches when it comes to interacting with women.

We do need to be careful though that all this is not seen as bad behaviour that needs to be modified. Trying your luck on a night out doesn't make you a potential rapist or a murderer. Something different has to be at play there. I think just now this is all being put together as the behaviour of men.

The other thing is that this behaviour isn't just men. Women have their own version of laddish behaviour. Men are very much also judged on appearance and objectified. My wife doesn't watch Tom Hardy films because of his acting skills or Bridgerton because of the quality of the script.

Then you have to get into the different ways in which men and women can impact each other. Domestic violence is certainly not a man to woman thing only. Statistically men are also more likely to be significantly impacted by psychological issues. I've got female friends and and family members whose behaviours make life a misery for their loved ones and families.

Anyway, just my thoughts that the light sexual banter, objectification and so on should most often be seen for that it is - hormones ding their thing to keep the human race going. I don't know the answer to what tips this into rape and murder or what I can do about it.

[matty_f]

And I get yours Matty, and pretty much agree with the above.

I think my only objection is the linking it to last week’s story as I say. I think you could flip the world around in terms of attitudes and culture and everything else.. and the proper monsters in the world will still act as they do, and it’ll still be women that are the easiest targets because these cowardly monsters are more likely to be physically stronger/attracted to them. Regardless of all that, my point is I’m not sure the messaging and campaign about our everyday attitudes should be connected to that poor woman’s death. I believe they are separate.

I suppose the argument on the other side is that if lunatics and wronguns grow up in a world where women are objectified - they are more likely to be driven towards these crimes? I’m no expert on anything, and certainly not on psychology. As I keep saying, I don’t want to keep arguing on the wrong side and genuinely interested in understanding things better. I just struggle to see how that tragic incident brought about an attack on men.

I guess one way or another it’s got us all talking and thinking about it though. And hopefully there is positive change on the horizon, be that culture, attitudes, law, or anything else.

Good post - I would suggest that we stop looking at the response as an attack on men, which it isn't (even if it does feel like it on the face of it, to some).

It's shining a light on what happens to countless women every day of their lives.

Pretty Boy posted earlier in the thread about being shown the steps that women go through as part of their normal routine (things like texting a friend when they're home safe, or sharing who they're out with with a friend if it's a date so the police know who to look for if anything happens, to having to take photos of taxis in case the driver is a wrong 'un, to having to smile politely at nutters who harrass them on public transport, to ignoring comments on their appearance, or wolf-whistles from van drivers or horn beeps from guys in cars, to ignoring sexual comments from workmates so as not to cop flak for it etc).

That is normal for woman and it's normal because of the behaviour of men. This isn't an attack on men, it's saying "look, can you try and own your s*** here please because actually enough is enough".

When we stop seeing that as an attack and start listening to what's being said and do our best to understand the problem, we start to see how we can affect change.

That's all that's being asked of us. And to stop raping and killing women, obviously.

[matty_f]

Matty, you make excellent points and I know what you mean but it is hugely complex and there is a danger that we are focusing one thing to address another and they are not necessarily linked.

One think we can't avoid is that men and women procreate. In order to assist with that we have been provided with certain hormones. Hormones that appear to work in different ways in different people.

One thing that will never change is the desire for procreation and the hormones we have for that also lead to enjoyment for the process, whether or not creation is the end goal.

A lot of the male behaviour that we talk about and that we are trying to address are when you come down to it, mating rituals or attempted mating rituals. Finding women attractive, finding parts of women's bodies attractive - that is nature and a lot of 'laddish' behaviour comes from that. channeling it in an appropriate way of course is something we all have to try and learn and can be improved upon I'm sure but you are fighting a bit with nature to control that - some people react differently to their hormones and we all know different people have very different approaches when it comes to interacting with women.

We do need to be careful though that all this is not seen as bad behaviour that needs to be modified. Trying your luck on a night out doesn't make you a potential rapist or a murderer. Something different has to be at play there. I think just now this is all being put together as the behaviour of men.

The other thing is that this behaviour isn't just men. Women have their own version of laddish behaviour. Men are very much also judged on appearance and objectified. My wife doesn't watch Tom Hardy films because of his acting skills or Bridgerton because of the quality of the script.

Then you have to get into the different ways in which men and women can impact each other. Domestic violence is certainly not a man to woman thing only. Statistically men are also more likely to be significantly impacted by psychological issues. I've got female friends and and family members whose behaviours make life a misery for their loved ones and families.

Anyway, just my thoughts that the light sexual banter, objectification and so on should most often be seen for that it is - hormones ding their thing to keep the human race going. I don't know the answer to what tips this into rape and murder or what I can do about it.

I think if we were unintelligent animals with no social awareness or emotional intelligence, then the idea of it being just nature and hormones would carry some weight, but that's a huge absolution of responsibility to write it off as that.

And I don't want to labour the point, but female to male violence in this discussion is irrelevant, as is the point about women objectifying men - we're talking levels here, Andy - it happens to women everywhere, whatever they're doing and often if they don't play along they get abused for it (verbally, physically, emotionally).

That happens on a scale that absolutely dwarves the other way around to the point where the comparison is almost banal.

Things like light-hearted sexual banter are a very thin line, again you'll see women go along with it because they're experience of objecting to it is almost entirely negative.

Should people flirt etc, of course, but talking about someone's breasts on an internet forum is unlikely to enhance your chances with a Sky Sports presenter, if I'm totally honest, so I'm not sure the argument carries much weight either.

Part of making the change is, IMHO, asking whether or not that light-hearted sexual banter is welcomed and appreciated (and reciprocated) or whether it's even appropriate at all.

It's challenging the attitudes that persist to create an environment where it's "ok" to harass, assault, murder, rape women because they're seen as fair game.

[WeeRussell]

Good post - I would suggest that we stop looking at the response as an attack on men, which it isn't (even if it does feel like it on the face of it, to some).

It's shining a light on what happens to countless women every day of their lives.

Pretty Boy posted earlier in the thread about being shown the steps that women go through as part of their normal routine (things like texting a friend when they're home safe, or sharing who they're out with with a friend if it's a date so the police know who to look for if anything happens, to having to take photos of taxis in case the driver is a wrong 'un, to having to smile politely at nutters who harrass them on public transport, to ignoring comments on their appearance, or wolf-whistles from van drivers or horn beeps from guys in cars, to ignoring sexual comments from workmates so as not to cop flak for it etc).

That is normal for woman and it's normal because of the behaviour of men. This isn't an attack on men, it's saying "look, can you try and own your s*** here please because actually enough is enough".

When we stop seeing that as an attack and start listening to what's being said and do our best to understand the problem, we start to see how we can affect change.

That's all that's being asked of us. And to stop raping and killing women, obviously.
👍 I wouldn’t argue with any of that. I’m sure the vast majority on here wouldn’t either. It can be quite hard to form an argument against any small part of what’s going on without coming across like a bit of a sexist d1ck.

It’s maybe more the social media escalation and examples there that I would take issue with.. and I should really have learned by now what SM is like for promoting opinions of ANYONE. It will be interesting and educational to talk with female friends about all this and their experiences once we’re back out in the world.

As an aside - I was thinking about the whole ‘text me when you get in’ type talk around this. Interested to know people’s specific reasons for doing this.. as I don’t think I would change that habit regardless of how much we bettered the world.

If I’ve been out with a woman, be that a date or just met them on a night out or whatever else.. I often would ask them to let me know they’re home safe more out of etiquette, politeness and a general care. I’ve also made sure women have got taxis or walked them to their door out of protective nature.. but I’ve always thought of that as being protective and the right thing than actually expecting anything bad to be around the corner. I’m sure some people would argue it’s a sexist view to see women as weaker or needing looked after, just like I shouldn’t be holding the door open for them in the old fashioned way.. but I doubt I’ll ever change that mindset.

Anyway not even sure what I’m slavering about anymore. I guess my question is, are the examples on SM (again) of texts about getting home safe etc really about general male attitudes and culture, or about keeping safe in what can be a dangerous world. And it comes back to the main argument also... is it not more about being weary of the relatively few complete psychos in the world that we all wish to avoid.

I don’t have any daughters, but I am protective of any females in my life.. be that a mother, sister, girlfriend or friend. I’ve always just seen that as human nature?

On the other side.. I’ve told plenty lads in the past to let me know they got home alright too.

[One Day Soon]

Are you seriously suggesting there is no difference in attitude towards women and men? Our society, whilst improvements have been made is still widely patriarchal and women are still widely seen as subservient. Around a third of women have admitted to suffering one form of domestic abuse from a partner who used violence and or mental abuse as a method of "keeping them in line", that's just the known cases and the actual figures are likely to be much higher.

Ours and other cultures have evolved from religions that teach that women are commodities and that violence and even murder are acceptable means of retaining the status quo and whilst laws and behaviour might have changed over the centuries, a watered down attitude that women need to be subservient to men still exists among many men and is the root source of most domestic violence.

Whilst many are arguing that males (especially young males) are more likely to suffer violence and murder than females, whilst true this is because of many different reasons including gang related violence, male v male ego and generally because men are less likely to avoid physical confrontation than women. We also need to remember that it is men who are almost exclusively the perpetrators of all violence. Also, it's not a competition to see which sex suffers more violence and can't be because it's not a level playing field because not only as mentioned already, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators but also the kind of violence acted upon men and women is different. Generally men don't get raped and although there have been cases of male rape victims, again the perpetrators have been almost exclusively other men. Sex trafficking is another crime that has almost exclusively female victims and male perpetrators with many more men paying money to make it a lucrative business for organised criminals.

Violent crime against women is different to violent crime against men in that most of it has its roots in cultural attitudes towards women. That's what needs to be changed.


:top marks

The whole point here is that this is about a spectrum of male on female violence, not just the extreme of murder. If you've listened to, or read the accounts by, most women over the past week of what they go through in their daily lives, how they have to think at all times, what they have to tolerate and the chilling effects of these things on their freedom to just live relatively normally it is deeply, deeply depressing. I was vaguely aware of it previously but this murder and the aftermath just laid bare the whole horrible truth.

I can get pretty worked up and passionate about politics as is evident from other threads on here but I can truthfully say I have rarely felt this low for a long time. The best way to phrase it is to say that I've just felt really disgusted with ourselves (in cultural and in societal terms). That this level of routine, daily, unrelenting, ****ty treatment of one half of the population is just baked into how they have to live really ****s me off.

[matty_f]

👍 I wouldn’t argue with any of that. I’m sure the vast majority on here wouldn’t either. It can be quite hard to form an argument against any small part of what’s going on without coming across like a bit of a sexist d1ck.

It’s maybe more the social media escalation and examples there that I would take issue with.. and I should really have learned by now what SM is like for promoting opinions of ANYONE. It will be interesting and educational to talk with female friends about all this and their experiences once we’re back out in the world.

As an aside - I was thinking about the whole ‘text me when you get in’ type talk around this. Interested to know people’s specific reasons for doing this.. as I don’t think I would change that habit regardless of how much we bettered the world.

If I’ve been out with a woman, be that a date or just met them on a night out or whatever else.. I often would ask them to let me know they’re home safe more out of etiquette, politeness and a general care. I’ve also made sure women have got taxis or walked them to their door out of protective nature.. but I’ve always thought of that as being protective and the right thing than actually expecting anything bad to be around the corner. I’m sure some people would argue it’s a sexist view to see women as weaker or needing looked after, just like I shouldn’t be holding the door open for them in the old fashioned way.. but I doubt I’ll ever change that mindset.

Anyway not even sure what I’m slavering about anymore. I guess my question is, are the examples on SM (again) of texts about getting home safe etc really about general male attitudes and culture, or about keeping safe in what can be a dangerous world. And it comes back to the main argument also... is it not more about being weary of the relatively few complete psychos in the world that we all wish to avoid.

I don’t have any daughters, but I am protective of any females in my life.. be that a mother, sister, girlfriend or friend. I’ve always just seen that as human nature?

On the other side.. I’ve told plenty lads in the past to let me know they got home alright too.

I think that's a big part of the point - the steps women take are accepted as normal that we don't really consider the reason why they take them.

[Crunchie]

👍 I wouldn’t argue with any of that. I’m sure the vast majority on here wouldn’t either. It can be quite hard to form an argument against any small part of what’s going on without coming across like a bit of a sexist d1ck.

It’s maybe more the social media escalation and examples there that I would take issue with.. and I should really have learned by now what SM is like for promoting opinions of ANYONE. It will be interesting and educational to talk with female friends about all this and their experiences once we’re back out in the world.

As an aside - I was thinking about the whole ‘text me when you get in’ type talk around this. Interested to know people’s specific reasons for doing this.. as I don’t think I would change that habit regardless of how much we bettered the world.

If I’ve been out with a woman, be that a date or just met them on a night out or whatever else.. I often would ask them to let me know they’re home safe more out of etiquette, politeness and a general care. I’ve also made sure women have got taxis or walked them to their door out of protective nature.. but I’ve always thought of that as being protective and the right thing than actually expecting anything bad to be around the corner. I’m sure some people would argue it’s a sexist view to see women as weaker or needing looked after, just like I shouldn’t be holding the door open for them in the old fashioned way.. but I doubt I’ll ever change that mindset.

Anyway not even sure what I’m slavering about anymore. I guess my question is, are the examples on SM (again) of texts about getting home safe etc really about general male attitudes and culture, or about keeping safe in what can be a dangerous world. And it comes back to the main argument also... is it not more about being weary of the relatively few complete psychos in the world that we all wish to avoid.

I don’t have any daughters, but I am protective of any females in my life.. be that a mother, sister, girlfriend or friend. I’ve always just seen that as human nature?

On the other side.. I’ve told plenty lads in the past to let me know they got home alright too.

I have 3 daughters ( all in their 30s ) the 3 of them would see the behaviour you describe about seeing them safely home or in taxis etc as being a decent human being.
Unfortunately we now have a brand of female who would see that as being patronising or seeing them as the weaker sex and an affront to their being. It's all a bit confusing for us auld yins.

[matty_f]

:top marks

The whole point here is that this is about a spectrum of male on female violence, not just the extreme of murder. If you've listened to, or read the accounts by, most women over the past week of what they go through in their daily lives, how they have to think at all times, what they have to tolerate and the chilling effects of these things on their freedom to just live relatively normally it is deeply' deeply depressing. I was vaguely aware of it previously but this murder and the aftermath just laid bare the whole horrible truth.

I can get pretty worked up and passionate about politics as is evident from other threads on here but I can truthfully say I have rarely felt this low for a long time. The best way to phrase it is to say that I've just felt really disgusted with ourselves (in cultural and in societal terms). That this level of routine, daily, unrelenting, ****ty treatment of one half of the population is just baked into how live really ****s me off.

:agree:

I've got 2 sisters (one older, one younger) and from a young age was made aware by my mum and dad about the differences in how women are treated and what's right and wrong (and actually, those things have changed a lot over the years as well).

I've got 2 daughters of my own now as well, my oldest is 14 and already she's had to put up with strangers sending her dick pics on social media, weirdos trying to message her, boys in her class taking photos of her.

She's 14. She's already having to work out ways to avoid things like that or how to deal with it when it happens. It's unacceptable.

My son, who turns 18 this year, has never had to experience any of that. Not a bit.

This is a deep-rooted issue. The messages about teaching our sons how to behave (as well as our daughters how to be safe) is crucial.

Fundamentally we have to accept that there's an issue though.


Edit - I should add, by the way, that I include challenging myself in this as well, we have had jokes about Ann Budge's appearance, or Susan Boyle on my podcast which we simply wouldn't do now on the back of these conversations (the Ann Budge stuff was stopped a while back, to be fair - if we take the piss out of her now it's to do with Hearts and what they've done and not about how she looks etc).

I'm happy to hold my hands up to stuff and say that I wouldn't do it if I had my time again.

[WeeRussell]

I think that's a big part of the point - the steps women take are accepted as normal that we don't really consider the reason why they take them.

Yep I thought about that as I posted it too. I don't keep responding because I think you are wrong... far from it in fact :aok:

[Sir David Gray]

Excellent point and completely agree.

It's wrong to suggest all Muslims carry some responsibility for the actions of a tiny minority of Islamic extremists.

It's also equally wrong to suggest all men carry some responsibility for the actions of an equally tiny minority of men.

Thanks, I was just really thinking about this last night as I was reading comments from people who were suggesting that all men need to take action to be accountable for the actions of the men who are engaging in this sort of behaviour towards women and if you don't speak out then you're basically complicit in the murder, rape and abuse of women and are therefore part of the problem.

Then it occurred to me that in the past I remember a lot of these same people (rightly in my opinion) frothing at the mouth at the mere suggestion that in order to tackle Islamic extremism all Muslims should be expected to speak out against Islamist terrorist atrocities and sort out radicalised individuals within their religion and if they don't do that then they're somehow accountable for such acts.

Anyone who made such a suggestion was dismissed and shut down by these people as a racist and an Islamophobe and the usual response was "Oh you can't expect 2 billion Muslims to be held responsible for a relatively few individuals."

I really don't see how demands for all men to take ownership for the bad behaviour of other men is any different.

[matty_f]

Yep I thought about that as I posted it too. I don't keep responding because I think you are wrong... far from it in fact :aok:

:agree: Appreciate that.

[matty_f]

Thanks, I was just really thinking about this last night as I was reading comments from people who were suggesting that all men need to take action to be accountable for the actions of the men who are engaging in this sort of behaviour towards women and if you don't speak out then you're basically complicit in the murder, rape and abuse of women and are therefore part of the problem.

Then it occurred to me that in the past I remember a lot of these same people (rightly in my opinion) frothing at the mouth at the mere suggestion that in order to tackle Islamic extremism all Muslims should be expected to speak out against Islamist terrorist atrocities and sort out radicalised individuals within their religion and if they don't do that then they're somehow accountable for such acts.

Anyone who made such a suggestion was dismissed and shut down by these people as a racist and an Islamophobe and the usual response was "Oh you can't expect 2 billion Muslims to be held responsible for a relatively few individuals."

I really don't see how demands for all men to take ownership for the bad behaviour of other men is any different.

What is it about the discussion that makes you want to not consider your own part in all this?

[WeeRussell]

Thanks, I was just really thinking about this last night as I was reading comments from people who were suggesting that all men need to take action to be accountable for the actions of the men who are engaging in this sort of behaviour towards women and if you don't speak out then you're basically complicit in the murder, rape and abuse of women and are therefore part of the problem.

Then it occurred to me that in the past I remember a lot of these same people (rightly in my opinion) frothing at the mouth at the mere suggestion that in order to tackle Islamic extremism all Muslims should be expected to speak out against Islamist terrorist atrocities and sort out radicalised individuals within their religion and if they don't do that then they're somehow accountable for such acts.

Anyone who made such a suggestion was dismissed and shut down by these people as a racist and an Islamophobe and the usual response was "Oh you can't expect 2 billion Muslims to be held responsible for a relatively few individuals."

I really don't see how demands for all men to take ownership for the bad behaviour of other men is any different.

That may well be SDG.. but I bet the majority of Muslims would be willing to help if there was something they could easily do to lower acts of terror.

I, like you, don’t agree with some of the rhetoric that’s come out of this. But I’m sure willing to listen and play my part if there is stuff we can do to make women feel safer and more comfortable in this world.

[Hibrandenburg]

Things have changed at a phenomenal rate over the past 20 years alone, I've seen it at my workplace and I'm sure everyone else has too. I'll ask you again, where are you seeing the behaviour you described.

Where don't I see it? Our culture is built on it. It's in religion, media, entertainment, literature and almost anywhere where groups of men get together.

[hibsbollah]

Thanks, I was just really thinking about this last night as I was reading comments from people who were suggesting that all men need to take action to be accountable for the actions of the men who are engaging in this sort of behaviour towards women and if you don't speak out then you're basically complicit in the murder, rape and abuse of women and are therefore part of the problem.

Then it occurred to me that in the past I remember a lot of these same people (rightly in my opinion) frothing at the mouth at the mere suggestion that in order to tackle Islamic extremism all Muslims should be expected to speak out against Islamist terrorist atrocities and sort out radicalised individuals within their religion and if they don't do that then they're somehow accountable for such acts.

Anyone who made such a suggestion was dismissed and shut down by these people as a racist and an Islamophobe and the usual response was "Oh you can't expect 2 billion Muslims to be held responsible for a relatively few individuals."

I really don't see how demands for all men to take ownership for the bad behaviour of other men is any different.

I have a feeling this is aimed at me.

My position is this; personally, I am reflecting on my own position as a man in relation to women’s fear of male violence, particularly sexual violence, in the light of recent events. I’ve had interesting conversations with my female family about this, which I’ve talked about on here. It is totally up to other individuals how and if they change their own behaviour. But I think it’s a good thing if we ALL reflect on our behaviour, always. That’s not the same as saying ‘all men MUST do this’ or suggesting you’re complicit in murder. That’s a misinterpretation. And it IS fair to ask the question ‘if you don’t want to reflect on your behaviour, why not?’

And that’s also very different to the situation about demanding all Muslims be held accountable for isolated acts of Islamic terrorism. It’s an absolute false equivalence.

[Spooky]

There were nearly 700 murders in England and Wales last year. There's always a murderer on the loose.

Incidentally 90% of said murderers are men.

To put that figure into perspective, that most murders were by men on men - think it was something like 75%

[CapitalGreen]

Thanks, I was just really thinking about this last night as I was reading comments from people who were suggesting that all men need to take action to be accountable for the actions of the men who are engaging in this sort of behaviour towards women and if you don't speak out then you're basically complicit in the murder, rape and abuse of women and are therefore part of the problem.

Then it occurred to me that in the past I remember a lot of these same people (rightly in my opinion) frothing at the mouth at the mere suggestion that in order to tackle Islamic extremism all Muslims should be expected to speak out against Islamist terrorist atrocities and sort out radicalised individuals within their religion and if they don't do that then they're somehow accountable for such acts.

Anyone who made such a suggestion was dismissed and shut down by these people as a racist and an Islamophobe and the usual response was "Oh you can't expect 2 billion Muslims to be held responsible for a relatively few individuals."

I really don't see how demands for all men to take ownership for the bad behaviour of other men is any different.

Taking ownership of the bad behaviour and taking ownership of the solutions to prevent future incidents are 2 different things.

Good, law abiding Muslims shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of terrorists but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out radical behaviour by people they know.

In the same way good, law abiding men shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of those who attack and harm women but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out inappropriate behaviour by people they know.

[Kato]

Women are not at the greatest risk, men are.

Are men more likely to be murdered on the street than women?

How many men who are murdered on the street are actually guilty of some kind of act which brought about the violence towards them, maybe aggressive behaviour for example.

Am also just singling that bit if that post for a pure wtf moment.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

To put that figure into perspective, that most murders were by men on men - think it was something like 75%

But the perspective required is what percentage of the perpetrators were men, surely?

Nobody's arguing that more men than women are attacked or killed, the point is that women are raped, attacked, killed almost exclusively by men and we should be looking at how we stop women falling victim to men.

We can also look at how we stop men falling victim to men, but that's a different discussion.

[Andy74]

Are men more likely to be murdered on the street than women?

How many men who are murdered on the street are actually guilty of some kind of act which brought about the violence towards them, maybe aggressive behaviour for example.

Am also just singling that bit if that post for a pure wtf moment.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

From what I’ve read, yes, men are more more likely to be murdered and also more likely to be killed on the street, in public.

I’ve no idea about the second point - did the murdered men ask for it in some way? I’m not sure anyone can ever really ask to be murdered but chances are some of those figures would probably have been results of fights, gang related stuff etc.

[Spooky]

But the perspective required is what percentage of the perpetrators were men, surely?

Nobody's arguing that more men than women are attacked or killed, the point is that women are raped, attacked, killed almost exclusively by men and we should be looking at how we stop women falling victim to men.

We can also look at how we stop men falling victim to men, but that's a different discussion.

Right, using PB's figures of 700 murders @ 90% by men:
630 committed by Males
70 committed by women

With my 75% (est.) perpetrator
473 male on male
157 male on female

Not sure who/what the 70 murders committed by women.

Please don't hold me to these figures precisely - just trying to recall stats from last week :confused:

[Andy74]

But the perspective required is what percentage of the perpetrators were men, surely?

Nobody's arguing that more men than women are attacked or killed, the point is that women are raped, attacked, killed almost exclusively by men and we should be looking at how we stop women falling victim to men.

We can also look at how we stop men falling victim to men, but that's a different discussion.

I think we need to look at how we stop anyone murdering anybody, but how?

If we take the men on women bit I think if I recall the majority are known to each other so they are largely domestic or revenge type. I think the actual number of women being randomly picked off the streets by men are quite small but they are certainly the ones that become the focus of reports - perhaps because they are so unusual in the scheme of things.

I’d say these are also the ones where the extension of men’s behaviour towards women could be a factor. Perhaps more likely that someone who quite openly harasses women or oversteps boundaries would be able to go on and rape or kill if the get frustrated in their efforts. I don’t know, even then I think it takes something much more to be able to take the decision to kill.

Why are men more violent generally though? You’d think that there must be some evolutionary wiring involved in that - males in most species fight, hunt, kill. We have learned to abide by social norms but not everyone can cope with that. Physically men stand more chance of being effective in killing.

Men have also been almost exclusively used as weapons of war for thousands of years. That is probably still stereotyped to our kids in what we watch and play with.

[matty_f]

I think we need to look at how we stop anyone murdering anybody, but how?

If we take the men on women bit I think if I recall the majority are known to each other so they are largely domestic or revenge type. I think the actual number of women being randomly picked off the streets by men are quite small but they are certainly the ones that become the focus of reports - perhaps because they are so unusual in the scheme of things.

I’d say these are also the ones where the extension of men’s behaviour towards women could be a factor. Perhaps more likely that someone who quite openly harasses women or oversteps boundaries would be able to go on and rape or kill if the get frustrated in their efforts. I don’t know, even then I think it takes something much more to be able to take the decision to kill.

Why are men more violent generally though? You’d think that there must be some evolutionary wiring involved in that - males in most species fight, hunt, kill. We have learned to abide by social norms but not everyone can cope with that. Physically men stand more chance of being effective in killing.

Men have also been almost exclusively used as weapons of war for thousands of years. That is probably still stereotyped to our kids in what we watch and play with.

First line of that is, with respect, very much "all lives matter" line of discussion.


Do we want to stop all murders, absolutely, why wouldn't we?

Is anyone suggesting that we shouldn't do that? Not that I've seen.

Should that preclude us from specifically looking at why and how women are attacked and killed by men? No, it shouldn't, and as such the rest of your post is, imho, irrelevant to the discussion unless we go off on a tangent that again, misses the point.

[Crunchie]

Where don't I see it? Our culture is built on it. It's in religion, media, entertainment, literature and almost anywhere where groups of men get together.

Forget the culture, we all know it's wrong and is changing rapidly.

Yes. certain religions persecute women openly, I'm all for that changing.

Entertainment? not sure where you're seeing that in this day.

Literature eh, let's burn the books you don't like.

As for your last comment, really? I suggest you are congregating with the wrong men my friend.

This is where the left ideology falls down at every turn, they presume to take the high moral ground but in fact are no better than anyone else, they just shout a lot.

Common sense and a good dose of reality will alway win out in the end.

[hibsbollah]

Forget the culture, we all know it's wrong and is changing rapidly.

Yes. certain religions persecute women openly, I'm all for that changing.

Entertainment? not sure where you're seeing that in this day.

Literature eh, let's burn the books you don't like.

As for your last comment, really? I suggest you are congregating with the wrong men my friend.

This is where the left ideology falls down at every turn, they presume to take the high moral ground but in fact are no better than anyone else, they just shout a lot.

Common sense and a good dose of reality will alway win out in the end.

That’s a new one. Since when is believing in women getting more equality a ‘left ideology’? There’s plenty of far left misogynists and right wing feminists.

[Andy74]

First line of that is, with respect, very much "all lives matter" line of discussion.


Do we want to stop all murders, absolutely, why wouldn't we?

Is anyone suggesting that we shouldn't do that? Not that I've seen.

Should that preclude us from specifically looking at why and how women are attacked and killed by men? No, it shouldn't, and as such the rest of your post is, imho, irrelevant to the discussion unless we go off on a tangent that again, misses the point.

If you are not going to try and understand why people are murdered in general, and why men murder anyone, then you are not going to specifically answer why women are murdered by men.

It is nothing like an ‘all lives matter’ line of discussion.

I think what you are looking at is a narrow avenue of men behave towards women in such and such a way and that this leads to women being raped and murdered.

[matty_f]

If you are not going to try and understand why people are murdered in general, and why men murder anyone, then you are not going to specifically answer why women are murdered by men.

It is nothing like an ‘all lives matter’ line of discussion.

I think what you are looking at is a narrow avenue of men behave towards women in such and such a way and that this leads to women being raped and murdered.
You can't see the parallels between a discussion about stopping men murdering women turning into a discussion about stopping all murder (i.e. now including men) with the discussion about black lives matter turning into how all lives matter (including white)?

You need to look at it narrowly, otherwise you miss the point again. The reasons for why men murder anyone don't solve this debate, for this part of the discussion, specifically why they murder or attack or rape women, is what is key.

And it's not just murder that's the issue here - it's the rest of it - the abuse, the attacks, the rapes, the sexual assaults', the sexual harassment etc that have taken us to the point where women are being advised not to go out in the dark, or where they have to let their friends know where they are and who they are with, or why they have to bite their tongue when some letch makes remarks at them or tries it on.

Digging your heels in about murder and ignoring the rest of it is looking at it too narrowly.

[Vault Boy]

My girlfriend was catcalled and followed by a stranger yesterday. She (23) was walking back from the city centre and a middle aged man in a van honked at her (she was alone on the street), drove up beside her and slowed down, staring at her all the way.

She has a slight hearing problem, so didn't catch what he was saying, but he made suggestive actions and sped off. Middle of the day in a city with a low crime rate.

She was quite upset about it when she got home, and it's not the only time it's happened - absolutely never happens when I'm with her though. Go figure.

It's events like this that happen far, far too regularly for women, and that's the reason I find it so ****ing contemptible when women's safety can't be discussed without whataboutery like 'not all men' and 'men get harassed too' coming into the narrative. The problem is male violence and male harassment, so we'd have to be willfully blind to argue that speaking about men's behaviour isn't an important factor in stopping this ****.

[Peevemor]

Having played bagpipes since the age of 9, I seemed to have spent half of my weekends in Scotland with a kilt wrapped around my arse.

I've literally lost count of the number of times, both home and abroad, that women of all ages thought it would be a laugh to have a free look or grope at what was underneath.

It's not just a a man thing.

[Speedy]

Taking ownership of the bad behaviour and taking ownership of the solutions to prevent future incidents are 2 different things.

Good, law abiding Muslims shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of terrorists but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out radical behaviour by people they know.

In the same way good, law abiding men shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of those who attack and harm women but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out inappropriate behaviour by people they know.

Great post

[matty_f]

Having played bagpipes since the age of 9, I seemed to have spent half of my weekends in Scotland with a kilt wrapped around my arse.

I've literally lost count of the number of times, both home and abroad, that women of all ages thought it would be a laugh to have a free look or grope at what was underneath.

It's not just a a man thing.

McMee Too. :greengrin

The kilt thing is an issue - would think that all of us that have worn a kilt have had the hands up, or the kilt lifted, or comments about it.

Now imagine that on some level most days of your life.

I'll reiterate - I've worn a kilt probably around 20-30 times in my life, I can think of one occasion where there was no comment or grabby behaviour.

Even allowing for all the other times it happened, my 14 year old daughter has been subject to more harassment and inappropriate behaviour than I have been at the age of (quickly count how old I am again) 43.

[Since90+2]

Having played bagpipes since the age of 9, I seemed to spend half of my weekends in Scotland with a kilt wrapped around my arse.

I've literally lost count of the number of times, both home and abroad, that women of all ages thought it would be a laugh to have a free look or grope at what was underneath.

It's not just a a man thing.

I was in a bar in George Street about 3 years ago and there was a hen do from Newcastle in and a group of 3 guys with kilts on (guessing they were attending a wedding or similar). The behaviour of the hen do towards them was shocking, literally going up and attempting to look under the kilt, trying to take pictures under the kilts and at one point crowding round the youngest whilst imitating a sex act.

Not one member of staff batted an eyelid. If the sexes were reversed in that scenario not only would the men have been told to leave the pub immediately they'd have been arrested under some fairly serious charges.

[CropleyWasGod]

McMee Too. :greengrin

The kilt thing is an issue - would think that all of us that have worn a kilt have had the hands up, or the kilt lifted, or comments about it.

Now imagine that on some level most days of your life.

McMee 3.

When I have called it out, I've had the "aww, it's just a bit of fun...." etc.

And, to be clear, it's not just women that have done that.

[matty_f]

I was in a bar in George Street about 3 years ago and there was a hen do from Newcastle in and a group of 3 guys with kilts on (guessing they were attending a wedding or similar). The behaviour of the hen do towards them was shocking, literally going up and attempting to look under the kilt, trying to take pictures under the kilts and at one point crowding round the youngest whilst imitating a sex act.

Not one member of staff batted an eyelid. If the sexes were reversed in that scenario not only would the men have been told to leave the pub immediately they'd have been arrested under some fairly serious charges.

Again, that's not on but imagine getting a degree of that type of behaviour whenever you go into a bar if you want to wear a skirt on a night out (a woman, obviously) or a top that's a bit low cut, or sometimes none of those things but just because you're a woman.

The situations are incomparable, though the women's behaviour as you described is completely unacceptable.

[Peevemor]

Again, that's not on but imagine getting a degree of that type of behaviour whenever you go into a bar if you want to wear a skirt on a night out (a woman, obviously) or a top that's a bit low cut, or sometimes none of those things but just because you're a woman.

The situations are incomparable, though the women's behaviour as you described is completely unacceptable.

It's a culture thing. It's about what people think is acceptable - rightly or wrongly.

That obviously has very little to do with dodgy one-on-one situations.

[Hibrandenburg]

Forget the culture, we all know it's wrong and is changing rapidly.

Yes. certain religions persecute women openly, I'm all for that changing.

Entertainment? not sure where you're seeing that in this day.

Literature eh, let's burn the books you don't like.

As for your last comment, really? I suggest you are congregating with the wrong men my friend.

This is where the left ideology falls down at every turn, they presume to take the high moral ground but in fact are no better than anyone else, they just shout a lot.

Common sense and a good dose of reality will alway win out in the end.

All the Abrahamic religions have persecuted women, some are further than others in their enlightenment but all are in some respects still in the dark ages.

You're kidding yourself if you really think our entertainment industry is not guilty of mostly showing women in weak or subservient roles or simply just there as eye candy, there's a whole industry built on selling sex or like the advertising industry using sex to sell. Yes there have been improvements and we now see films and TV shows with strong female characters but the whole subservient pish is still rife within the industry. While we're on the subject, we should probably discuss the age old tradition of the casting couch, men in powerful positions abusing that position to employ women on their willingness to sleep with them rather than their professional ability, the whole #metoo movement is a result of such behaviour and I find it extremely difficult to believe you've somehow missed it. We also have row on row of male celebs abusing their status to sexually abuse mainly young women.

Your comment about book burning is just stupid and makes you look stupid. Nobody has suggested that, but there’s enough literature out there of both fact and fiction that presents women as weak, feeble and subservient that it warrants discussion.

Your last statement about me mixing with the wrong men is also stupid and ill informed, none, absolutely zero of my male friends would treat women in a derogatory manner, if they did then they wouldn't be my friends for long. But we do all mix with other men who don't necessarily hold the same views as we do. I've been employed in the army, by the fire brigade and in an airline where I've witnessed many things said and done that made my skin crawl, from the odd throwaway misogynistic remark down to the completely inappropriate or even criminal act carried out by men who have a creepy and sleazy attitude towards women. I lost count of the amount of times my female colleagues had their bottoms or breasts squeezed by some slimeball who thought it was ok to sexually assault a stewardess.

Your statement about the left and ideology has me baffled, are you seriously suggesting that those on the left have somehow conspired to invent misogyny to give themselves something to shout about?

As for you're last sentence I couldn't agree more, but somehow think our definitions of what that actually means are poles apart.

[Crunchie]

That’s a new one. Since when is believing in women getting more equality a ‘left ideology’? There’s plenty of far left misogynists and right wing feminists.
I don't know if you've noticed or not, but there have been a number of policies put in place over the last 20 years or more in order to achieve equality, in many ways that has been achieved, and some.
The Labour party and the unions introduced a policy whereby it had to be women only candidates filling posts in order to get the numbers up, irrespective of their skill or experience, that is where I believe Labour are suffering now, but that's for another discussion.
To me that was the wrong way to go about it and when I voiced concerns about this policy low and behold I was shouted down by, believe it or not, a bunch of women and called a misogynist.
The BBC in their wisdom have decided to put females on every sport programme for the self same reason as Labour and the unions did, solely to get the numbers up.
I'm all for equality 100%, but there has to be level headed policies, not knee jerk reactions.

[Sir David Gray]

What is it about the discussion that makes you want to not consider your own part in all this?

Because I do not abuse, murder or rape women, nor do I disrespect or patronise them on the basis of their gender and therefore I do not feel I have anything that I need to consider. I am 100% comfortable in the way that I personally treat women.

I am responsible and accountable for my own actions and just because I happen to share a gender with the utter **** who do things like this to women doesn't make me a part of it.

Violence and mistreatment of women is completely unacceptable but in my opinion it's the perpetrators who need to own this behaviour, no-one else and I don't believe I should be made to feel guilty for that just because I am male.


That may well be SDG.. but I bet the majority of Muslims would be willing to help if there was something they could easily do to lower acts of terror.

I, like you, don’t agree with some of the rhetoric that’s come out of this. But I’m sure willing to listen and play my part if there is stuff we can do to make women feel safer and more comfortable in this world.

It's the suggestion that all men are somehow implicated in this just simply because they're men (irrespective of whether each individual man has actually done something bad to a woman or not) that I was comparing to the Muslim discussion - not necessarily the question of whether they themselves feel they can do something to help.

I'm sceptical about the notion that males publicly speaking up about violence against women will result in a reduction of rapes, domestic abuse and murder. Those are the sort of things that normal people do not do in the first place and by definition I'd say an abnormal person is unlikely to take this into account before they carry out their wicked crimes.

There's perhaps a bit more hope for calling out a man who engages in "laddish" behaviour such as wolf whistles, degrading and patronising comments etc as that is more of a societal issue and I do believe those sorts of behaviours can be altered. Having said that though, if a man persists with this behaviour what more can be done? It's his behaviour that needs to change, not mine and I'm not responsible for the way another adult behaves.


I have a feeling this is aimed at me.

My position is this; personally, I am reflecting on my own position as a man in relation to women’s fear of male violence, particularly sexual violence, in the light of recent events. I’ve had interesting conversations with my female family about this, which I’ve talked about on here. It is totally up to other individuals how and if they change their own behaviour. But I think it’s a good thing if we ALL reflect on our behaviour, always. That’s not the same as saying ‘all men MUST do this’ or suggesting you’re complicit in murder. That’s a misinterpretation. And it IS fair to ask the question ‘if you don’t want to reflect on your behaviour, why not?’

And that’s also very different to the situation about demanding all Muslims be held accountable for isolated acts of Islamic terrorism. It’s an absolute false equivalence.

It wasn't aimed at you specifically, no. Most of the stuff I have taken objection to has been written on social media rather than on here.

I have answered the question you have posed to me further up but happy to address this again.

I believe my views on women are fair and respectful. I do not patronise women or disrespect anything they say because of their gender.

As such I believe I am only responsible for my own actions. By all means if I heard a woman being mistreated in a pub etc then I may say something but if the behaviour continues that's not me who needs to own that just because I'm a male.

I don't believe the Muslim analogy is a false equivalence at all. There you have a situation whereby the followers of an entire religion are being demonised just because of the actions of a minority. Everyone else is viewed with caution just because of their faith and there's demands for moderate Muslims to criticise the actions.

Here we have an entire gender being demonised (in some conversations, not all) just because the actions of some men. People are saying that men are responsible for this even if they themselves have done nothing wrong.


Taking ownership of the bad behaviour and taking ownership of the solutions to prevent future incidents are 2 different things.

Good, law abiding Muslims shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of terrorists but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out radical behaviour by people they know.

In the same way good, law abiding men shouldn’t be expected to take ownership of the crimes of those who attack and harm women but they can help prevent future incidents by taking ownership of solutions. Reporting suspicions, education, calling out inappropriate behaviour by people they know.

I agree with this, my issue never has been with men feeling that they want to get involved with tackling violence and intimidation against women, nor is it the case that I feel the topic doesn't deserve to be discussed or downplayed in any way. Women feeling unsafe on our streets is not acceptable and the men who are responsible for them feeling this way should be severely dealt with. It is shameful behaviour.

The issue I have is with the view that I have read over the weekend from some people that I somehow need to take some of the responsibility for changing the status quo for no other reason than the fact I share the same gender as the pondlife who mistreat women.

[Crunchie]

All the Abrahamic religions have persecuted women, some are further than others in their enlightenment but all are in some respects still in the dark ages.

You're kidding yourself if you really think our entertainment industry is not guilty of mostly showing women in weak or subservient roles or simply just there as eye candy, there's a whole industry built on selling sex or like the advertising industry using sex to sell. Yes there have been improvements and we now see films and TV shows with strong female characters but the whole subservient pish is still rife within the industry. While we're on the subject, we should probably discuss the age old tradition of the casting couch, men in powerful positions abusing that position to employ women on their willingness to sleep with them rather than their professional ability, the whole #metoo movement is a result of such behaviour and I find it extremely difficult to believe you've somehow missed it. We also have row on row of male celebs abusing their status to sexually abuse mainly young women.

Your comment about book burning is just stupid and makes you look stupid. Nobody has suggested that, but there’s enough literature out there of both fact and fiction that presents women as weak, feeble and subservient that it warrants discussion.

Your last statement about me mixing with the wrong men is also stupid and ill informed, none, absolutely zero of my male friends would treat women in a derogatory manner, if they did then they wouldn't be my friends for long. But we do all mix with other men who don't necessarily hold the same views as we do. I've been employed in the army, by the fire brigade and in an airline where I've witnessed many things said and done that made my skin crawl, from the odd throwaway misogynistic remark down to the completely inappropriate or even criminal act carried out by men who have a creepy and sleazy attitude towards women. I lost count of the amount of times my female colleagues had their bottoms or breasts squeezed by some slimeball who thought it was ok to sexually assault a stewardess.

Your statement about the left and ideology has me baffled, are you seriously suggesting that those on the left have somehow conspired to invent misogyny to give themselves something to shout about?

As for you're last sentence I couldn't agree more, but somehow think our definitions of what that actually means are poles apart.

I served my time in a factory in Leith which had a high proprtion of middle aged women, all the apprentices were groped, fondled and subjected to things on a weeklly basis that would make your skin crawl.
Our initiation was also from the women, stripped naked and wheeled around like a piece of meat, some of us liked it ( not that we had a choice ) some of us didn't.
I could tell many a tale of what would be deemed now to be a sexual assault.

[lord bunberry]

Having played bagpipes since the age of 9, I seemed to have spent half of my weekends in Scotland with a kilt wrapped around my arse.

I've literally lost count of the number of times, both home and abroad, that women of all ages thought it would be a laugh to have a free look or grope at what was underneath.

It's not just a a man thing.
I know it’s great eh :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I served my time in a factory in Leith which had a high proprtion of middle aged women, all the apprentices were groped, fondled and subjected to things on a weeklly basis that would make your skin crawl.
Our initiation was also from the women, stripped naked and wheeled around like a piece of meat, some of us liked it ( not that we had a choice ) some of us didn't.
I could tell many a tale of what would be deemed now to be a sexual assault.

That sounds more like mobbing rather than an ingrained belief that men are to be treated like sex objects or subservient.

[Crunchie]

That sounds more like mobbing rather than an ingrained belief that men are to be treated like sex objects or subservient.
Good one :aok:

[Berwickhibby]

I am coming to it from a slightly different angle, but I have dealt with more female victims of assault than I care to remember, shattered woman, degraded and battered normally by the person they love most in the world. I personally think once we change the mindset on domestic violence and abuse have appropriate punishment by the courts then things might start to change generally.

[matty_f]

Because I do not abuse, murder or rape women, nor do I disrespect or patronise them on the basis of their gender and therefore I do not feel I have anything that I need to consider. I am 100% comfortable in the way that I personally treat women.

I am responsible and accountable for my own actions and just because I happen to share a gender with the utter **** who do things like this to women doesn't make me a part of it.

Violence and mistreatment of women is completely unacceptable but in my opinion it's the perpetrators who need to own this behaviour, no-one else and I don't believe I should be made to feel guilty for that just because I am male.



It's the suggestion that all men are somehow implicated in this just simply because they're men (irrespective of whether each individual man has actually done something bad to a woman or not) that I was comparing to the Muslim discussion - not necessarily the question of whether they themselves feel they can do something to help.

I'm sceptical about the notion that males publicly speaking up about violence against women will result in a reduction of rapes, domestic abuse and murder. Those are the sort of things that normal people do not do in the first place and by definition I'd say an abnormal person is unlikely to take this into account before they carry out their wicked crimes.

There's perhaps a bit more hope for calling out a man who engages in "laddish" behaviour such as wolf whistles, degrading and patronising comments etc as that is more of a societal issue and I do believe those sorts of behaviours can be altered. Having said that though, if a man persists with this behaviour what more can be done? It's his behaviour that needs to change, not mine and I'm not responsible for the way another adult behaves.



It wasn't aimed at you specifically, no. Most of the stuff I have taken objection to has been written on social media rather than on here.

I have answered the question you have posed to me further up but happy to address this again.

I believe my views on women are fair and respectful. I do not patronise women or disrespect anything they say because of their gender.

As such I believe I am only responsible for my own actions. By all means if I heard a woman being mistreated in a pub etc then I may say something but if the behaviour continues that's not me who needs to own that just because I'm a male.

I don't believe the Muslim analogy is a false equivalence at all. There you have a situation whereby the followers of an entire religion are being demonised just because of the actions of a minority. Everyone else is viewed with caution just because of their faith and there's demands for moderate Muslims to criticise the actions.

Here we have an entire gender being demonised (in some conversations, not all) just because the actions of some men. People are saying that men are responsible for this even if they themselves have done nothing wrong.



I agree with this, my issue never has been with men feeling that they want to get involved with tackling violence and intimidation against women, nor is it the case that I feel the topic doesn't deserve to be discussed or downplayed in any way. Women feeling unsafe on our streets is not acceptable and the men who are responsible for them feeling this way should be severely dealt with. It is shameful behaviour.

The issue I have is with the view that I have read over the weekend from some people that I somehow need to take some of the responsibility for changing the status quo for no other reason than the fact I share the same gender as the pondlife who mistreat women.

We do have a responsibility to change things though, if that means carrying on doing the good things that you are already doing then great.

You shouldn't feel defensive about it - you're not under attack for what's happened or the situation, you're being asked to help change things.

It's not all men's fault but we all have a part to play in affecting change. Simply washing your hands of it isn't enough. I don't know why anyone would not want to be part of making women safer?

[Crunchie]

I am coming to it from a slightly different angle, but I have dealt with more female victims of assault that I care to remember, shattered woman, degraded and battered normally by the person they love most in the world. I personally think once we change the mindset on domestic violence and abuse and appropriate punishment by the courts then things might start to change generally.
:top marksDomestic violence had been a number 1 priority for a few years ( rightly so ) I think hate crime has taken over.

There is a huge problem of DV in Scotland and should be tackled head on, there's where you will start to educate the children who witness it that's it not acceptable. It's a highly complex issue to handle but one that has to be kept at the top of the list if we're to see any substantial change in the attitudes towards women that are being talked about here.

[Crunchie]

We do have a responsibility to change things though, if that means carrying on doing the good things that you are already doing then great.

You shouldn't feel defensive about it - you're not under attack for what's happened or the situation, you're being asked to help change things.

It's not all men's fault but we all have a part to play in affecting change. Simply washing your hands of it isn't enough. I don't know why anyone would not want to be part of making women safer?
I think what he and others like myself are saying is we hear what you're saying but instead of wasting time on men that KNOW what is right let's get to the men who clearly don't.
An analogy would be the botched attempt to go after the deadbeat fathers who wouldn't pay for their children, all the CSA did was go after the fathers who were and make them pay more.

[matty_f]

I think what he and others like myself are saying is we hear what you're saying but instead of wasting time on men that KNOW what is right let's get to the men who clearly don't.
An analogy would be the botched attempt to go after the deadbeat fathers who wouldn't pay for their children, all the CSA did was go after the fathers who were and make them pay more.

That's the point, we are the ones that need to get to those men.

And for those that know what's right - well done, but keep asking yourself if you're doing enough about it.

[Colr]

Yeah but the reality is that women might feel that they have to restrict their freedoms but it is men who are at most risk. More men are murdered generally and more are likely to be murdered in public places.

Yes BUT all women have their lives restricted by such fears and the societal pressures that they impose and this has a really negative effect on women’s day to day existence. Whereas men are not so restricted.

The difference in the murder figures between men and women may or may not be down to the restrictions that women face.

[Colr]

Is being murdered the only crime women are concerned about falling victim to when walking home alone?

Clearly not, as they are more likely to be murdered by a male relative or close acquaintance when they do get home.

[WeeRussell]

Because I do not abuse, murder or rape women, nor do I disrespect or patronise them on the basis of their gender and therefore I do not feel I have anything that I need to consider. I am 100% comfortable in the way that I personally treat women.

I am responsible and accountable for my own actions and just because I happen to share a gender with the utter **** who do things like this to women doesn't make me a part of it.

Violence and mistreatment of women is completely unacceptable but in my opinion it's the perpetrators who need to own this behaviour, no-one else and I don't believe I should be made to feel guilty for that just because I am male.



It's the suggestion that all men are somehow implicated in this just simply because they're men (irrespective of whether each individual man has actually done something bad to a woman or not) that I was comparing to the Muslim discussion - not necessarily the question of whether they themselves feel they can do something to help.

I'm sceptical about the notion that males publicly speaking up about violence against women will result in a reduction of rapes, domestic abuse and murder. Those are the sort of things that normal people do not do in the first place and by definition I'd say an abnormal person is unlikely to take this into account before they carry out their wicked crimes.

There's perhaps a bit more hope for calling out a man who engages in "laddish" behaviour such as wolf whistles, degrading and patronising comments etc as that is more of a societal issue and I do believe those sorts of behaviours can be altered. Having said that though, if a man persists with this behaviour what more can be done? It's his behaviour that needs to change, not mine and I'm not responsible for the way another adult behaves.



It wasn't aimed at you specifically, no. Most of the stuff I have taken objection to has been written on social media rather than on here.

I have answered the question you have posed to me further up but happy to address this again.

I believe my views on women are fair and respectful. I do not patronise women or disrespect anything they say because of their gender.

As such I believe I am only responsible for my own actions. By all means if I heard a woman being mistreated in a pub etc then I may say something but if the behaviour continues that's not me who needs to own that just because I'm a male.

I don't believe the Muslim analogy is a false equivalence at all. There you have a situation whereby the followers of an entire religion are being demonised just because of the actions of a minority. Everyone else is viewed with caution just because of their faith and there's demands for moderate Muslims to criticise the actions.

Here we have an entire gender being demonised (in some conversations, not all) just because the actions of some men. People are saying that men are responsible for this even if they themselves have done nothing wrong.



I agree with this, my issue never has been with men feeling that they want to get involved with tackling violence and intimidation against women, nor is it the case that I feel the topic doesn't deserve to be discussed or downplayed in any way. Women feeling unsafe on our streets is not acceptable and the men who are responsible for them feeling this way should be severely dealt with. It is shameful behaviour.

The issue I have is with the view that I have read over the weekend from some people that I somehow need to take some of the responsibility for changing the status quo for no other reason than the fact I share the same gender as the pondlife who mistreat women.

For the part of your post that was a response to me. - I hear ya SDG. And I agree with some of your points too.

I think, like me, a lot of the stuff you’ve taken objection to is on social media. That’s tended to be the way of things generally for me of late.. as I mentioned previously on here I’ve actually binned most of my social media for that reason.

[hibsbollah]

Because I do not abuse, murder or rape women, nor do I disrespect or patronise them on the basis of their gender and therefore I do not feel I have anything that I need to consider. I am 100% comfortable in the way that I personally treat women.

I am responsible and accountable for my own actions and just because I happen to share a gender with the utter **** who do things like this to women doesn't make me a part of it.

Violence and mistreatment of women is completely unacceptable but in my opinion it's the perpetrators who need to own this behaviour, no-one else and I don't believe I should be made to feel guilty for that just because I am male.



It's the suggestion that all men are somehow implicated in this just simply because they're men (irrespective of whether each individual man has actually done something bad to a woman or not) that I was comparing to the Muslim discussion - not necessarily the question of whether they themselves feel they can do something to help.

I'm sceptical about the notion that males publicly speaking up about violence against women will result in a reduction of rapes, domestic abuse and murder. Those are the sort of things that normal people do not do in the first place and by definition I'd say an abnormal person is unlikely to take this into account before they carry out their wicked crimes.

There's perhaps a bit more hope for calling out a man who engages in "laddish" behaviour such as wolf whistles, degrading and patronising comments etc as that is more of a societal issue and I do believe those sorts of behaviours can be altered. Having said that though, if a man persists with this behaviour what more can be done? It's his behaviour that needs to change, not mine and I'm not responsible for the way another adult behaves.



It wasn't aimed at you specifically, no. Most of the stuff I have taken objection to has been written on social media rather than on here.

I have answered the question you have posed to me further up but happy to address this again.

I believe my views on women are fair and respectful. I do not patronise women or disrespect anything they say because of their gender.

As such I believe I am only responsible for my own actions. By all means if I heard a woman being mistreated in a pub etc then I may say something but if the behaviour continues that's not me who needs to own that just because I'm a male.

I don't believe the Muslim analogy is a false equivalence at all. There you have a situation whereby the followers of an entire religion are being demonised just because of the actions of a minority. Everyone else is viewed with caution just because of their faith and there's demands for moderate Muslims to criticise the actions.

Here we have an entire gender being demonised (in some conversations, not all) just because the actions of some men. People are saying that men are responsible for this even if they themselves have done nothing wrong.



I agree with this, my issue never has been with men feeling that they want to get involved with tackling violence and intimidation against women, nor is it the case that I feel the topic doesn't deserve to be discussed or downplayed in any way. Women feeling unsafe on our streets is not acceptable and the men who are responsible for them feeling this way should be severely dealt with. It is shameful behaviour.

The issue I have is with the view that I have read over the weekend from some people that I somehow need to take some of the responsibility for changing the status quo for no other reason than the fact I share the same gender as the pondlife who mistreat women.

The key reason I don’t think there is a equivalence between moderate Muslims being held accountable for the actions of terrorists (case a) and non violent men taking responsibility for making women feel safe (case b), is the use of the words ‘taking responsibility for’ and ‘being accountable for’ ; which are very different. Also, In case a) I’m also speaking to a group of which I’m part of, in case b) I’m speaking to an alien group to which I don’t belong.

There’s also a discussion to be had about dominant groups in society and ‘punching down’ which was mentioned before, but we’d need to agree UK society is structured where there’s a dominant racial group and gender, and I don’t think we’re going to agree on that.

I give you credit for a thought provoking question which made me consider where I stand. And actually you’re right, you weren’t using a false comparison, I think it’s a matter of intention and application.

[Andy74]

Yes BUT all women have their lives restricted by such fears and the societal pressures that they impose and this has a really negative effect on women’s day to day existence. Whereas men are not so restricted.

The difference in the murder figures between men and women may or may not be down to the restrictions that women face.

This is a gross exaggeration of the issue isn’t it?

Assuming you are a man then you and I should have more fear walking the streets.

You aren’t suggesting that women are murdered at a lower rate because they are so frightened they aren’t going out or aren’t walking around are you?

[Colr]

This is a gross exaggeration of the issue isn’t it?

Assuming you are a man then you and I should have more fear walking the streets.

You aren’t suggesting that women are murdered at a lower rate because they are so frightened they aren’t going out or aren’t walking around are you?

We don’t know but woman limit their exposure to things like walking alone at night. It’s engrained in our society.

Have a look at cop shows. How many of them are based around abduction and murder of women? Women grow up with this life limiting pressure.

[Andy74]

We don’t know but woman limit their exposure to things like walking alone at night. It’s engrained in our society.

Have a look at cop shows. How many of them are based around abduction and murder of women? Women grow up with this life limiting pressure.

Yeah they are often the focus of shows and media interest but largely because they are relatively unusual - in the sense of women being attacked in the street by strangers.

I think it is a perception thing and perhaps they do feel more exposed as they are usually physically weaker than men who they think will attack them, however, the other side of it is that the stats show that the actual instances of it happening to women are lower than it happening to men. Men probably should be more concerned walking the street but possibly aren’t because they think they can handle it.

I think brawls and inner city gang stuff will account for a lot of the figures for men. I also think groups of lads out for bother will attack other smaller groups of lads or men on their own.

Suspect women far more likely to be the target of rapists and other creeps rather than folk out for violence. As well as the domestic stuff and people known to them for revenge violence etc. It is thankfully much rarer to be the victim of these types though, although they do get media attention when it happens.

[CapitalGreen]

This is a gross exaggeration of the issue isn’t it?

Assuming you are a man then you and I should have more fear walking the streets.

You aren’t suggesting that women are murdered at a lower rate because they are so frightened they aren’t going out or aren’t walking around are you?

Fear of murder or of all violent/sexual crimes?

[Dinkydoo]

I think it is a perception thing and perhaps they do feel more exposed as they are usually physically weaker than men who they think will attack them, however, the other side of it is that the stats show that the actual instances of it happening to women are lower than it happening to men. Men probably should be more concerned walking the street but possibly aren’t because they think they can handle it.

My guess is that; because women have had to grow up dealing with boys (and later men) creeping on them throughout their entire lives that they fear what might happen if they meet the wrong guy, alone in the dark.

The suggestion that having that fear is an exaggeration and exacerbated by media coverage, makes me really quite uncomfortable.

[Hibrandenburg]

My guess is that; because women have had to grow up dealing with boys (and later men) creeping on them throughout their entire lives that they fear what might happen if they meet the wrong guy, alone in the dark.

The suggestion that having that fear is an exaggeration and exacerbated by media coverage, makes me really quite uncomfortable.

I'm not a woman and I can't begin to imagine what it's like for women being treated with contempt and threatened by men, especially when alcohol is involved. But nobody can tell me that sexual and verbal harassment isn't common or isn't more prevalent for women. I've witnessed it myself on too many occasions for it to be pure coincidence or subjective perception. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had to or been asked to intervene on behalf of female flight attendants because men refused to follow safety instructions because they don't take orders from a woman. As a man I never had that problem once in 15 years of flying. The same applied to a few effeminate male flight attendants. No one can convince me otherwise but there is a large minority of men who have extreme problems with strong self confident women or women in a position of authority, I guess it makes them feel like their masculinity is being challenged.

[Dinkydoo]

I'm not a woman and I can't begin to imagine what it's like for women being treated with contempt and threatened by men, especially when alcohol is involved. But nobody can tell me that sexual and verbal harassment isn't common or isn't more prevalent for women. I've witnessed it myself on too many occasions for it to be pure coincidence or subjective perception. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had to or been asked to intervene on behalf of female flight attendants because men refused to follow safety instructions because they don't take orders from a woman. As a man I never had that problem once in 15 years of flying. The same applied to a few effeminate male flight attendants. No one can convince me otherwise but there is a large minority of men who have extreme problems with strong self confident women or women in a position of authority, I guess it makes them feel like their masculinity is being challenged.

Yeah, my experience is similar. Certainly as a man, I've probably only been sexually harassed by women a handful of times; to an extent where something made me uncomfortable, at least.

The number of occassions where I've had an opportunity to intervene when I've witnessed a man being out of line with a woman, hasn't been much more than that. Though, importantly, I've seen enough evidence in the form of messages and stories shared by women who I have no reason to distrust, to be confident in thinking it is fairly normalised in modern society. That coupled with a hell of a lot of laddish behaviour growing up, helps to paint a pretty sad picture.

Having thought really in-depth about this for a few days now, I think we probably all could be doing more to speak out against systemic misogny in our society. It's certainly going to take more than just the good guys saying oi, get your hand off her leg every time we run into it in order to make a real difference. It also (and this won't be popular on my social media channels at least), is going to take more than women sharing anecdotes of how they check-in with friends on nights out, or how they've all walked home fully prepared to key an attacker in the face, to generate change at the level most folk seem to want. As horrifying as these stories are, they don't address the root of any problem.

Now, people who have studied this sort of thing for a long time will know better (and have less of a chance of totally screwing up the psychology of generations to come) than I! But; things like

- the countless helpless female princess stories that hollywood produce and we show children. Challenge it. At least endeavour to offer more balance.

- the 17 year old pop star dancing about in the scud. Challenge it. Why is it ok for society to objectify her but not somone in your maths class, how do we explain that hypocrasy to the next generation? I don't think I'd be able to.

Make it so weird and unacceptable for a woman to be seen as a helpless inferior, or an object for gratification (outside of bespoke industries and adult relationships), that insituitions like The Met, who are facing a lot of the scrutiny right now, can't continue to operate in the same vein.

Those jobs for the boys clubs will have a harder time carrying on with the status quo, if everyone is speaking out against all acts of misogny.

[matty_f]

Yeah, my experience is similar. Certainly as a man, I've probably only been sexually harassed by women a handful of times; to an extent where something made me uncomfortable, at least.

The number of occassions where I've had an opportunity to intervene when I've witnessed a man being out of line with a woman, hasn't been much more than that. Though, importantly, I've seen enough evidence in the form of messages and stories shared by women who I have no reason to distrust, to be confident in thinking it is fairly normalised in modern society. That coupled with a hell of a lot of laddish behaviour growing up, helps to paint a pretty sad picture.

Having thought really in-depth about this for a few days now, I think we probably all could be doing more to speak out against systemic misogny in our society. It's certainly going to take more than just the good guys saying oi, get your hand off her leg every time we run into it in order to make a real difference. It also (and this won't be popular on my social media channels at least), is going to take more than women sharing anecdotes of how they check-in with friends on nights out, or how they've all walked home fully prepared to key an attacker in the face, to generate change at the level most folk seem to want. As horrifying as these stories are, they don't address the root of any problem.

Now, people who have studied this sort of thing for a long time will know better (and have less of a chance of totally screwing up the psychology of generations to come) than I! But; things like

- the countless helpless female princess stories that hollywood produce and we show children. Challenge it. At least endeavour to offer more balance.

- the 17 year old pop star dancing about in the scud. Challenge it. Why is it ok for society to objectify her but not somone in your maths class, how do we explain that hypocrasy to the next generation? I don't think I'd be able to.

Make it so weird and unacceptable for a woman to be seen as a helpless inferior, or an object for gratification (outside of bespoke industries and adult relationships), that insituitions like The Met, who are facing a lot of the scrutiny right now, can't continue to operate in the same vein.

Don’t watch porn. Pornography has a huge role to play in how some men perceive women and the relationship between women and sex. It regularly portrays rough sex, often with the woman as a “willing” participant, and how the women are there for the sole purpose of satisfying the man.

Porn has been normalised to a huge degree, especially since the explosion of the internet, and it is linked to all manner of issues.