Taking the knee

[ShadesLongThrow]

I’ve not seen any comment on this so I’m wondering if I imagined it but I’m pretty sure neither team took the knee before the game yesterday.

[dphibs]

I thought the same. One of the Hamilton players went to do it as the game kicked off. Thought I’d imagined it.

[hibee-boys]

If they’ve pulled it then I’m glad. Football, like the rest of society, has role to play with being proactive in tackling racism and intolerance, time to consider how better they/we can help better achieve that. Taking the knee was a powerful symbol at that time, lost that impact long ago.

[G B Young]

I read that some English clubs have stopped doing it, not sure if that's the case here too.

[JimBHibees]

Pretty sure both teams did do it. Think there was a delay to kick off for some reason.

[Brightside]

Pretty sure both teams did do it. Think there was a delay to kick off for some reason.

That was due to the lino coming out late.

[Argylehibby]

That was due to the lino coming out late.

Aye the one with COVID turned up late.

[Greenbeard]

That was due to the lino coming out late.
Looked sheepish enough to suggest he was maybe late with lightening his load pre-match.

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought the same. One of the Hamilton players went to do it as the game kicked off. Thought I’d imagined it.

He was a bit late in taking the knee, so went for Boyle's a wee while later.

[CMurdoch]

He was a bit late in taking the knee, so went for Boyle's a wee while later.

:greengrin

[Ardenttwo]

I read that some English clubs have stopped doing it, not sure if that's the case here too.


Bournemouth have stopped it. They say taking the knee has run its course and no longer has any effect

[Wigson13]

I’ve not seen any comment on this so I’m wondering if I imagined it but I’m pretty sure neither team took the knee before the game yesterday.

Never paid any attention at the time but did notice that Sportscene didn't show on the highlights and thought that was very unusual because for some reason they always show the taking of the knee in every game they show. Always wondered why they deemed it necessary to show it on the highlights as its nothing to do with the football.

[G B Young]

Bournemouth have stopped it. They say taking the knee has run its course and no longer has any effect

Think QPR stopped it last year and I know Brentford also have. Palace striker Wilfried Zaha says he's not doing it any more as he finds it 'degrading'.

[Since452]

I don't even notice it anymore. If i hadn't seen this thread I'd have been none the wiser. Definitely run its course.

[The 90+2]

Les Ferdinand summed it up perfectly.

[Andy74]

Think QPR stopped it last year and I know Brentford also have. Palace striker Wilfried Zaha says he's not doing it any more as he finds it 'degrading'.

I was branded as being part of the problem not long ago for suggesting that it was becoming meaningless and that action now was more important than gestures.

[blackpoolhibs]

I was branded as being part of the problem not long ago for suggesting that it was becoming meaningless and that action now was more important than gestures.

Statements like this always have a time frame, and sometimes becomes counter productive in my opinion. :agree:

[Irish_Steve]

Wilfried Zaha has said he will no longer do it - here's the link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56123991

[jacomo]

I was branded as being part of the problem not long ago for suggesting that it was becoming meaningless and that action now was more important than gestures.


Thankfully you’re here to remind us what’s really important.

[FilipinoHibs]

Thankfully you’re here to remind us what’s really important.

The time for solidarity has passed. Now for action:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/28508/12225568/crystal-dunn-usa-women-are-stopping-taking-a-knee-to-make-a-stand-through-action-instead

[basehibby]

It's worth remembering the origins of the gesture - the American Football players taking the knee during the Stars and Stripes in the uber-patriotic US was a controversial and brave move which refused to let the story of yet another (and another...) black guy shot by the polis out of the headlines.

The solidarity shown by sportsmen and woman the world over was heartening - but it HAD started to lose it's meaning some time ago with a sense of it having become all but compulsory - so I'm not sorry to see it come to an end.

[StevesFamau5]

I was branded as being part of the problem not long ago for suggesting that it was becoming meaningless and that action now was more important than gestures.Would you like your Nobel peace prize for this?

You are right about action however, I am interested to see what the SPFL and the EPL are going to do next. Some of the recent abuse directed at players via social media is absolutely disgusting.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

[JimBHibees]

Would you like your Nobel peace prize for this?

You are right about action however, I am interested to see what the SPFL and the EPL are going to do next. Some of the recent abuse directed at players via social media is absolutely disgusting.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

That is more for government, social platforms and police I would have thought.

[StevesFamau5]

That is more for government, social platforms and police I would have thought.Oh absolutely but I would have thought maybe they would do something to try and highlight it and present a united front against racism of all forms.

Govt and Social Media platforms are woefully slow sometimes. Twitter is a dark place to go sometimes.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

[heretoday]

We should take the knee in Scotland against sectarian hatred.

[Andy74]

Would you like your Nobel peace prize for this?

You are right about action however, I am interested to see what the SPFL and the EPL are going to do next. Some of the recent abuse directed at players via social media is absolutely disgusting.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

Nah, but when you’re told by several people that you are basically a racist and need educated it is fair enough to point out that there are more and more people that are thinking the same way.

My thoughts were purely on how effective and impactful this now was and whether there were now better ways to move this on.

[hibsbollah]

Nah, but when you’re told by several people that you are basically a racist and need educated it is fair enough to point out that there are more and more people that are thinking the same way.

My thoughts were purely on how effective and impactful this now was and whether there were now better ways to move this on.

Your views on race are well documented. As are your constant attempts to say you are being ‘called a racist’ on here when you haven’t.

[Keith_M]

I had a feeling this thread would go rapidly downhill.

[Andy74]

Your views on race are well documented. As are your constant attempts to say you are being ‘called a racist’ on here when you haven’t.

Ah, here we go...

[Brizo]

It's worth remembering the origins of the gesture - the American Football players taking the knee during the Stars and Stripes in the uber-patriotic US was a controversial and brave move which refused to let the story of yet another (and another...) black guy shot by the polis out of the headlines.

The solidarity shown by sportsmen and woman the world over was heartening - but it HAD started to lose it's meaning some time ago with a sense of it having become all but compulsory - so I'm not sorry to see it come to an end.

Agree that it had lost its initial impact and probably its initial effectiveness becoming just part of the matchday furniture. To keep these hugely important issues at the forefront of peoples minds I think its time for new initiatives which are very much needed given the large amount of online racism that's been reported.

Re an earlier posters comments re sectarianism its disappointing that SUTR and other Scottish anti-racism campaigns have been totally silent on this which is essentially racism towards folks of Irish Catholic heritage or folk perceived to be because of the clubs they support.

[Andy74]

Agree that it had lost its initial impact and probably its initial effectiveness becoming just part of the matchday furniture. To keep these hugely important issues at the forefront of peoples minds I think its time for new initiatives which are very much needed given the large amount of online racism that's been reported.

Re an earlier posters comments re sectarianism its disappointing that SUTR and other Scottish anti-racism campaigns have been totally silent on this which is essentially racism towards folks of Irish Catholic heritage or folk perceived to be because of the clubs they support.

It is difficult to know what else football can do - and it can't exist in isolation to society unfortunately.

Getting its own house in order in terms of making sure no one is discriminated against when jobs are available and making sure that there is diversity in decision making bodies is very much under football's control and I don't really know the extent to which these things are working.

However, the main issues that get reported are in players being abused - largely on social media. This is far more difficult and this needs to come down to the people who operate the platforms. There are no amount of campaigns, gestures or education that will stop this as far as I can see. There will always be idiots who will abuse someone for something. It doesn't have to be race. Perversely, recent campaigns probably serve to keep race as a front and centre reindeer for these idiots to abuse someone.

[Brizo]

It is difficult to know what else football can do - and it can't exist in isolation to society unfortunately.

Getting its own house in order in terms of making sure no one is discriminated against when jobs are available and making sure that there is diversity in decision making bodies is very much under football's control and I don't really know the extent to which these things are working.

However, the main issues that get reported are in players being abused - largely on social media. This is far more difficult and this needs to come down to the people who operate the platforms. There are no amount of campaigns, gestures or education that will stop this as far as I can see. There will always be idiots who will abuse someone for something. It doesn't have to be race.[B] Perversely, recent campaigns probably serve to keep race as a front and centre reindeer for these idiots to abuse someone.


Theres a definite catch 22 element as football and wider society cant afford to ignore racism but I totally agree that highlighting it does seem to fuel morons to join in, particularly when they can do so from a position of anonymity. We haven't eliminated football related sectarianism from an essentially secular Scotland after 100 plus years so unfortunately, I think the fight against racism will also be with us long term.

[Crunchie]

Nah, but when you’re told by several people that you are basically a racist and need educated it is fair enough to point out that there are more and more people that are thinking the same way.

My thoughts were purely on how effective and impactful this now was and whether there were now better ways to move this on.
My feelings on the matter very much echoed yours, and the overwhelming consensus amongst my friends, colleagues and family are the same.

[basehibby]

It is difficult to know what else football can do - and it can't exist in isolation to society unfortunately.

Getting its own house in order in terms of making sure no one is discriminated against when jobs are available and making sure that there is diversity in decision making bodies is very much under football's control and I don't really know the extent to which these things are working.

However, the main issues that get reported are in players being abused - largely on social media. This is far more difficult and this needs to come down to the people who operate the platforms. There are no amount of campaigns, gestures or education that will stop this as far as I can see. There will always be idiots who will abuse someone for something. It doesn't have to be race. Perversely, recent campaigns probably serve to keep race as a front and centre reindeer for these idiots to abuse someone.


I would have thought that cracking down on outright racism on social media would be quite straight forward. It should be as easy as victim reports it - complaint is assessed and upheld - perpetrator banned in perpetuity. Job done!

Of course it's not always that straightforward as some definitions of racism are different from others - there are definitely grey areas - but the sort of thing highlighted recently with footballers being outright abused by brainless anonymous cowards - surely it's not that hard!

[Dashing Bob S]

An important poignant and bold gesture at the start, now a pointless, even counterproductive bore.

Way to tear the backside out of something.

As useful to football and society in general now as another international tournament.

[One Day In Time]

It's time to drop it to be honest. I never actually agreed with it in the first place. To me it's a sub servient thing to do, I would have preferred to see players standing up, fists in the air.

I think we'll always have a racism and sectarian issue but I think clubs have done about as much as they really can re racism. I think going forward just regular mentions on the club tannoy and eh players doing their pre match thing. Perhaps articles on Hibs TV and in the programme from the players

I wish though that Scottish football would have dealt with sectarianism as well

[basehibby]

It's time to drop it to be honest. I never actually agreed with it in the first place. To me it's a sub servient thing to do, I would have preferred to see players standing up, fists in the air.

I think we'll always have a racism and sectarian issue but I think clubs have done about as much as they really can re racism. I think going forward just regular mentions on the club tannoy and eh players doing their pre match thing. Perhaps articles on Hibs TV and in the programme from the players

I wish though that Scottish football would have dealt with sectarianism as well


Along with what already happens in many grounds and what is most effective in my opinion - ordinary decent fans standing up to the morons and telling them to Shut TF Up or F Off.

Racism does still occasionally lift it's ugly head among the ER support but I'm glad to say that it's a rare occasion and mainly because the ignorant **** are left in no uncertainty as to how unwelcome they are among the Hibs support.

[matty_f]

For all it's apparently run its course etc, here we are still discussing racism and still discussing how to solve it. It's keeping it on the agenda, that's a good thing.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think the current racism problem in Scotland has come at a handy time for the bigot brothers. It has been completely ignored as usual, over something I think is nowhere near as big a problem in Scotland as sectarianism.
Both are terrible, but both need eradicated, yet one gets much more solidarity than the other.

[Cat Stanton]

For all it's apparently run its course etc, here we are still discussing racism and still discussing how to solve it. It's keeping it on the agenda, that's a good thing.

This was exactly Marvin Bartley's point on the news last night.

[Carheenlea]

Hibs players will now stand rather than kneel

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/hibs-racism

[H18 SFR]

As the husband of someone who is racially abused routinely at times throughout the year (mostly at work I’d add), the whole take a knee / take a stand thing makes me laugh.

It’s a pathetic attempt to pretend that football is ‘doing something’ about racism.

[loanheadhibby]

As the husband of someone who is racially abused routinely at times throughout the year (mostly at work I’d add), the whole take a knee / take a stand thing makes me laugh.

It’s a pathetic attempt to pretend that football is ‘doing something’ about racism.

Agreed. It’s tokenism. A bit like the T shirt efforts of the international teams re Qatar.

[Spike Mandela]

Disappointed to be honest. Five league games to go, I thought they could have at least seen the initiative out till the end of the season.

It’s the clubs choice of course, and I respect it, and have read and understood their thinking. Still think it sends out a bit of a wrong signal even if done for honourable reasons.

Understand other people’s views on this and respect them, not looking to argue or debate, each to their own, just feel nothing is ever seen through to the end these days.

[CMurdoch]

As the husband of someone who is racially abused routinely at times throughout the year (mostly at work I’d add), the whole take a knee / take a stand thing makes me laugh.

It’s a pathetic attempt to pretend that football is ‘doing something’ about racism.

Whilst I agree it is a worn out gesture it is part of the drip drip of educating the young and the thickest folk in our communities, many of whom watch football, that racism is unacceptable.
My sympathies are with your wife and other folk that are racially abused at work. The worst thing is that it is impossible for them to avoid these morons.

[FilipinoHibs]

As the husband of someone who is racially abused routinely at times throughout the year (mostly at work I’d add), the whole take a knee / take a stand thing makes me laugh.

It’s a pathetic attempt to pretend that football is ‘doing something’ about racism.

Let's all stand together against racism.Sorry to hear about your wife, mine gets it on social media, we live in her country.

[MWHIBBIES]

Hibs should be clear in mentioning all forms of bigotry. Have to deal with racism, sectarianism and any and all forms of it to get rid of it.

[Seveno]

Hibs players will now stand rather than kneel

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/hibs-racism

If by ‘standing up against racism’ means that they will walk off the pitch if one of their team mates is racially abused then I would be proud of them. Assuming that I knew what was happening then I would stand up and applaud.

This is what is needed for the football authorities to act.

[The Pointer]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

[Caversham Green]

If by ‘standing up against racism’ means that they will walk off the pitch if one of their team mates is racially abused then I would be proud of them. Assuming that I knew what was happening then I would stand up and applaud.

This is what is needed for the football authorities to act.

Maybe that would be the time to take the knee. If they hear racist abuse, rather than walk off the entire team takes the knee for maybe 10 seconds delaying but not ending the game. It would make it absolutely clear what had happened.

[Crunchie]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.
:top marks

[Peevemor]

Maybe that would be the time to take the knee. If they hear racist abuse, rather than walk off the entire team takes the knee for maybe 10 seconds delaying but not ending the game. It would make it absolutely clear what had happened.Unfortunately there would be people in the crowd who'd be happy to have their own "hello mum" moment of fame.

[WhileTheChief..]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

:top marks

You wouldn’t think it though.

Every day on every news outlet we get told how awful Britain is. I’d love to know which countries they’re comparing us to, other than Utopia.

[The Pointer]

:top marks

You wouldn’t think it though.

Every day on every news outlet we get told how awful Britain is. I’d love to know which countries they’re comparing us to, other than Utopia.


Indeed, if you rely on the MSM as your sole source of 'news'.

[FilipinoHibs]

:top marks

You wouldn’t think it though.

Every day on every news outlet we get told how awful Britain is. I’d love to know which countries they’re comparing us to, other than Utopia.

I think you are living in a utopian bubble :https://theconversation.com/how-racist-is-britain-today-what-the-evidence-tells-us-141657

[matty_f]

I think you are living in a utopian bubble :https://theconversation.com/how-racist-is-britain-today-what-the-evidence-tells-us-141657

:agree:

While the UK is definitely better than a lot of countries, there’s still a long, long way to go in the fight against racism.

[bigwheel]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

Put race relations back? Stunned at such a tainted view of the current environment... maybe read the recent story (for example) of Debora Kayembe recently appointed as rector of Edinburgh Uni. Ask this respected human rights lawyer and activist how she feels about tolerance in and around Edinburgh ?

To suggest it is actions such as “taking the knee” is the root cause of damaging race relations deserves to be called out as utter nonsense

[MartinfaePorty]

Put race relations back? Stunned at such a tainted view of the current environment... maybe read the recent story (for example) of Debora Kayembe recently appointed as rector of Edinburgh Uni. Ask this respected human rights lawyer and activist how she feels about tolerance in and around Edinburgh ?

To suggest it is actions such as “taking the knee” is the root cause of damaging race relations deserves to be called out as utter nonsenseI totally agree. I've been working for 33 years and last year was the first time I heard testimony from black co-workers about their experiences of racism they had experienced in their careers. I was pretty oblivious as to just how bad some of this had been. This was due to my employer reacting to the activism of the BLM movement, amongst others, and encouraging them to share their stories to educate the rest of us. Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk

[147lothian]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.


:top marks Nailed it!

[WestCoastHibby]

Repeating a process expecting a different outcome....doesn't work.
Taking the knee..... doesn't work

[ClermistonGreen]

:top marks Nailed it!
Absolutely, 100%
Well said sir 👍

[BlackSheep]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

May I ask what age you are?

Britain is not a tolerant country in the slightest! This island is inherently racist, and only our blasé attitude towards it makes it seem we as a nation are tolerant.

The idea that the publicity of racism has set the issue back 50 years is nonsense.... it only seems like that to those who have ignored the issue until it’s no longer ignorable.

Racism is not a political issue either, is an issue of respect for your fellow man, no matter the colour of their skin or ethnic origins!

Football players taking a knee or making a stand highlights the issue further and as role models to many young people they are setting an example that no one is impressed by racist attitudes, this is the whole point of a role model!

Believing that this is an American issue too is nonsense.... it’s like saying it’s not your concern if atrocities are happening somewhere else, just ignorance.

[Seveno]

May I ask what age you are?

Britain is not a tolerant country in the slightest! This island is inherently racist, and only our blasé attitude towards it makes it seem we as a nation are tolerant.

The idea that the publicity of racism has set the issue back 50 years is nonsense.... it only seems like that to those who have ignored the issue until it’s no longer ignorable.

Racism is not a political issue either, is an issue of respect for your fellow man, no matter the colour of their skin or ethnic origins!

Football players taking a knee or making a stand highlights the issue further and as role models to many young people they are setting an example that no one is impressed by racist attitudes, this is the whole point of a role model!

Believing that this is an American issue too is nonsense.... it’s like saying it’s not your concern if atrocities are happening somewhere else, just ignorance.

I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?

[Peevemor]

I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.

[.Sean.]

Hibs players will now stand rather than kneel

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/hibs-racism
Good. But proof is in the pudding and I Hibs are as pro active in calling out the Old Firm when they’ve got 4000 knuckledraggers belting out pish for 90 minutes at Easter Road

[BlackSheep]

I agree with all that you say but why are you asking the poster to give his age. What relevance does that have to the issue?

The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!

[Peevemor]

The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!What total b*****ds!!! They must be like me in that they were taught that saying coloured was polite as opposed to "black" which was viewed as racist. Instead of being as intolerant as those you criticise, try to understand why people might do or say certain things. Believe me, it'll stand you in good stead.

[BlackSheep]

What total b*****ds!!! They must be like me in that they were taught that saying coloured was polite as opposed to "black" which was viewed as racist. Instead of being as intolerant as those you criticise, try to understand why people might do or say certain things. Believe me, it'll stand you in good stead.

Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

I kind of explained that in my last post, showing I fully understand their reasons.

[Peevemor]

Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

No. I mentioned trying to understand why.

[BlackSheep]

No. I mentioned trying to understand why.

Enlighten me.... it seems you think I don’t understand that due to their upbringing, education, socialisation during an era that viewed certain terms acceptable, that are now not acceptable and their views are based on old rhetoric and in turn that by asking someone’s age to ascertain some perspective on their views seems to say I don’t understand!?

[BlackSheep]

What’s your view Peevemore? Do you think we live in a tolerant society?

[hibby rae]

When they stop this faux-American nonsense it won't be soon enough. It's got nothing to do with us, living in one of the most tolerant countries in the world and has put race relations back 50 years.

Keep politics out of sport and get on with the football. If they're still doing this when crowds are allowed back I hope it is roundly condemned for the virtue signalling nonsense it is.

I'm going to guess you are white? And haven't experienced any discrimination yourself, or engaged/listened with those that have?

Given there are countless examples from people in this country where they have described their experiences as victims of racial prejudice, and the statistical evidence which shows it is a problem, then this most certainly does have something to do with us.

Even if we were one of the most tolerant countries in the world, which I doubt, we would still have a duty to eradicate any prejudice that did exist.

[Andy74]

Difficulty is, when corrected they shrug their shoulders and say ‘whatever’... I am well aware of why they may say or do the things they do, it’s the lack of effort to change that is the real issue.... I am also of a generation that was told to say coloured over black, but as I am aware that using that term is no longer acceptable, I no longer use it!

Are you saying that because people were raised to believe one way was better that they should be excused for still using it? That really is ignorant and is a huge part of the problem.

I kind of explained that in my last post, showing I fully understand their reasons.

Older people not knowing the right terminology is not really the same as actively giving someone racist abuse or treating someone differently because of their race.

It isn’t a huge part of the problem at all.

[BlackSheep]

Actually, I think it is... the information is available to everyone, no one is too old to learn new things. It’s this attitude that only keeps the issue alive... acceptance of racism in any form including pleading ignorance is the problem we face today.

[superfurryhibby]

Older people not knowing the right terminology is not really the same as actively giving someone racist abuse or treating someone differently because of their race.

It isn’t a huge part of the problem at all.

Agreed.

There is a huge difference between the two situations.

[Keith_M]

Actually, I think it is... the information is available to everyone, no one is too old to learn new things. It’s this attitude that only keeps the issue alive... acceptance of racism in any form including pleading ignorance is the problem we face today.


But what you're discussing is in no way an 'acceptance of racism'.


There's a big difference between somebody being intentionally and knowingly racist and somebody unintentionally using an outdated phrase that isn't in itself particularly offensive (especially as there's an organisation in the US that still uses it - NAACP).

It's a bit like if an English person referred to a group of Scots as 'Jocks', but that person has no actual prejudice towards Scottish people and doesn't realise the term is maybe a bit irritating. Now, I could go into a total meltdown about it, but I'd probably end up looking a bit stupid.

[Peevemor]

Agreed.

There is a huge difference between the two situations.It's like everything else on here. There's no room for discussion with some people as they think everything has to be right or wrong/good or bad, with no acceptance of anything in between. People can be good, benevolent & well meaning without being perfect.

The majority of heated debate I get into on here comes from my trying to understand both sides of any argument or situation. That seems to be beyond some people's comprehension.

[BlackSheep]

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I feel as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.

[BlackSheep]

It's like everything else on here. There's no room for discussion with some people as they think everything has to be right or wrong/good or bad, with no acceptance of anything in between. People can be good, benevolent & well meaning without being perfect.

The majority of heated debate I get into on here comes from my trying to understand both sides of any argument or situation. That seems to be beyond some people's comprehension.

I don’t feel this answers my query or request.... do you feel that factors in people’s lives that may affect their understanding and in turn usage of racist, sectarian, gender or sexuality slurs is something that cannot be changed?

I’m trying to see it from your point of view.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I fell as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.

Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?

[BlackSheep]

Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?

Yes, perhaps those lucky enough not encounter any form of racism should be cut slack.... so next time I hear someone using a racial slur (let’s not focus on what used to be acceptable and no longer isn’t) I’ll just assume they’ve not encountered it, and let them go on their way...?

I’m not saying there should be harsh consequences in these instances but these fortunate people should be educated on the subject so they understand it’s not acceptable.

[Keith_M]

Maybe all the information is out there, but if you don't encounter rasicm in every day life surely you can cut some people slack if they are not up to the proper wording that changes every so often?


Apparently not.

It's much better to go off at the deep end than just explain to somebody why a word or phrase they've just used might be a bit off.

Oh and there's apparently no half measures; you're either totally perfect in word and deed (100% 'woke')... or you're an out-and-out racist (misogynist, anti-semite, trans-phobic, etc).

[Peevemor]

I think somehow we have focused too much on a specific phrase here which is clouding the point I’m trying to make.

Let’s put it this way, I feel there is no excuse to use ANY racist terms regardless of age or education. As I pointed out before the information is out there, and BLM has highlighted it on the world stage. Any use of outdated terminology IS I feel as bad as abuse, why, because having comfort in using any racist terminology stops the problem from getting solved, ignorance breeds acceptance.

I have witnessed it in youth, acceptance or lack of education on racial slurs sees youth using said terminology and this often, not always, becomes a gateway to using more vile rhetoric in the future.

If use of or lack of education on the subject at an early stage, for example at home, is nipped in the bud, then people are more likely not to feel comfortable with its existence in society... this discomfort is what we need to spread and hopefully eradicate the worst forms
of racism.

It’s the same reasoning behind the authorities claiming Cannabis is a gateway drug and seek to stop the manufacture and supply it to aid in the effort to eradicate illegal drugs on the whole.I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.

[BlackSheep]

Apparently not.

It's much better to go off at the deep end than just explain to somebody why a word or phrase they've just used might be a bit off.

Oh and there's apparently no half measures; you're either totally perfect in word and deed (100% 'woke')... or you're an out-and-out racist (misogynist, anti-semite, trans-phobic, etc).

Actually I would argue there shouldn’t be a grey area.... either you are comfortable using words that offend or you are not comfortable? If there’s a man alternative that is acceptable then please show me? Every day is school day and it seems I’m getting bogged down in my own argument.

[Keith_M]

I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.


Yeah, them Frogs can be really irritating sometimes...

[BlackSheep]

I live in France. I regularly (at least weekly) have to put up with jokey comments about being Scottish/British (even English). Although it's often cringeworthy, the only time it really bothers me is when I don't like the person concerned. Apart from that people are generally well meaning if sometimes a bit ignorant. I certainly don't need anyone to become outraged for me nor to decide what terms people can use to describe me.

Well that’s the thing... I’m not trying to tell you what you should be offended by, I’m arguing that we (the royal we) should be concerned with what WE say that could offend others.

[BlackSheep]

Surely you shouldn't be posting on here. You should be out with your pitchfork and torch hunting down the people that aren't quite perfect enough for you.

If it's OK, I think I'll stick to accepting that people are human, don't know everything that's right and wrong and occasionally make mistakes.

Do you not have a response that is valid enough to put forward that you have to stoop to childish mud slinging? People are human and do make mistakes, but would you not want to help even just one person to realise their mistake and pay it forward?

When I was younger, I used to use a lot of terminology that I have since learned isn’t acceptable and I have tried to wipe the vernacular out of my vocabulary, I don’t want my children hearing any terms that they could in turn use and not know the meaning behind the words.... I was part of the problem, because I didn’t understand the force behind the words, I now try to pass what education I have had on the subject on.

[Keith_M]

Do you not have a response that is valid enough to put forward that you have to stoop to childish mud slinging? People are human and do make mistakes, but would you not want to help even just one person to realise their mistake and pay it forward?

When I was younger, I used to use a lot of terminology that I have since learned isn’t acceptable and I have tried to wipe the vernacular out of my vocabulary, I don’t want my children hearing any terms that they could in turn use and not know the meaning behind the words.... I was part of the problem, because I didn’t understand the force behind the words, I now try to pass what education I have had on the subject on.


The bit I've highlighted in bold clearly shows you didn't read my whole post... or decided to ignore some of it.

Why make an argument that I've already answered?

[Seveno]

The reason I ask the posters age was just out of interest as I do find that folk from older generations more commonly think racism is a non issue in this country... which I think stems from my point that most of those who do think there hasn’t been an issue grew up when racism wasn’t viewed in the same light as it is these days.

It will take a long long time but the current publicity and changing attitudes will hopefully work it’s way down through future generations.

I have older relatives who still use the term ‘coloured’ and think it’s acceptable... ignorance is bliss in their eyes!

So you categorise your opinion of people according to their age ? Well I am offended by your ageism.

[BlackSheep]

So you categorise your opinion of people according to their age ? Well I am offended by your ageism.

1+1=3 there bud.

I asked as I felt knowing would help me to understand the poster’s stand point, as I have explained I have found more people from older generations find it hard to change their behaviour or not want to change, than those from younger generations.

I didn’t form an opinion about the OP I simply sought to understand why eh or she may have formed their opinion on our country being a tolerant one. Age is one factor that may explain that.

[Peevemor]

Well that’s the thing... I’m not trying to tell you what you should be offended by, I’m arguing that we (the royal we) should be concerned with what WE say that could offend others.I think the vast majority are concerned, although some may be guilty of the ocassional lapse.

There are also some who make no effort whatsoever and will wear their whateverism as a badge of honour. Unless they break the law there isn't much that can be done. Ignoring them, thus starving them of the attention they often seek, is often the best option.

There are also people who, try as they might, will always hold different prejudices - through fear. Some people are simply afraid of things or people that are different. The biggest homophobe I know is a 1st class person, but he has a fear of homosexual men that can manifest itself as dislike. When dealing with someone like that you can either criticise or try to understand and make allowances. I know my preference.

Those that concern me most are the people that make the right noises and use the correct terminology, but deep down they are racist, homophobic, or whatever. These are the people that can do the greatest damage without necessarily drawing much attention.

Bottom line for me is that actions speak louder than words. I prefer a genuinely good person who'll sometimes make the odd mistake over someone that presents a very correct façade which is, in reality, concealing the worst type of hypocrite.

[BlackSheep]

I think the vast majority are concerned, although some may be guilty of the ocassional lapse.

There are also some who make no effort whatsoever and will wear their whateverism as a badge of honour. Unless they break the law there isn't much that can be done. Ignoring them, thus starving them of the attention they often seek, is often the best option.

There are also people who, try as they might, will always hold different prejudices - through fear. Some people are simply afraid of things or people that are different. The biggest homophobe I know is a 1st class person, but he has a fear of homosexual men that can manifest itself as dislike. When dealing with someone like that you can either criticise or try to understand and make allowances. I know my preference.

Those that concern me most are the people that make the right noises and use the correct terminology, but deep down they are racist, homophobic, or whatever. These are the people that can do the greatest damage without necessarily drawing much attention.

Bottom line for me is that actions speak louder than words. I prefer a genuinely good person who'll sometimes make the odd mistake over someone that presents a very correct façade which is, in reality, concealing the worst type of hypocrite.

Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?

[Peevemor]

Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?He's perfectly reasonable and rarely says anything to offend (on that front), but if there's a gay bloke in the company then barriers go up - he can't help it.

[Andy74]

Thank you, I appreciate your insight to the discussion. You make very good points too... can I ask if you have ever tried to discuss it with him and help him see that what you witness can be interpreted as hateful?

Personally think the focus should be on those who are acting on and manifesting their prejudices in some way.

We all have prejudices and biases. That isn’t going to go away. Understanding how they might lead to other people being treated differently as a result is important.

If friends have a fear or dislike of something I’m not sure that needs a conversation unless they are acting on it.

[WhileTheChief..]

Yes, perhaps those lucky enough not encounter any form of racism should be cut slack.... so next time I hear someone using a racial slur (let’s not focus on what used to be acceptable and no longer isn’t) I’ll just assume they’ve not encountered it, and let them go on their way...?

I’m not saying there should be harsh consequences in these instances but these fortunate people should be educated on the subject so they understand it’s not acceptable.

It’s been years since I’ve heard anyone use a racial slur in real life, maybe decades.

Where are these more tolerant countries? There might be a handful, at best, that are as tolerant as the British are towards ethnic minorities, but I don’t see any country being held up as example of what we should aim to be.

The data seems to be freely available knocking us as racists, is there no data for anywhere else?

[hibby rae]

It’s been years since I’ve heard anyone use a racial slur in real life, maybe decades.

Where are these more tolerant countries? There might be a handful, at best, that are as tolerant as the British are towards ethnic minorities, but I don’t see any country being held up as example of what we should aim to be.

The data seems to be freely available knocking us as racists, is there no data for anywhere else?

We shouldn't aim to be another country, rather a better vwrsion of ourselves.

If you haven't heard a racial slur or seen any evidence of racism in society in the length of time you state, then you are very lucky, but also probably live in a bubble.

[BlackSheep]

Personally think the focus should be on those who are acting on and manifesting their prejudices in some way.

We all have prejudices and biases. That isn’t going to go away. Understanding how they might lead to other people being treated differently as a result is important.

If friends have a fear or dislike of something I’m not sure that needs a conversation unless they are acting on it.

While I agree that there are some that require more attention than others, but it definitely all starts with the smallest of things. Take Peevemore’s example, if his friend has kids and they see him acting this way around homosexuals, it will most likely affect how his children act in those circumstances, and while his behaviour isn’t directly offensive, the influence of it could in fact cause others to become offensive.

The same can be said about casual racism like stories, jokes, songs and even using outdated terms... no man is an island and while we may not mean to pass on our own insecurities it happens regardless... by highlighting this it helps to start some form of healing in society, one would hope.

Change will not happen overnight, but the more who back change now the quicker it will come.

[WhileTheChief..]

We shouldn't aim to be another country, rather a better vwrsion of ourselves.

If you haven't heard a racial slur or seen any evidence of racism in society in the length of time you state, then you are very lucky, but also probably live in a bubble.

I never said that.

I don’t live in a bubble, I just don’t associate with racists :aok:

[hibby rae]

I never said that.

I don’t live in a bubble, I just don’t associate with racists :aok:

You don't have to associate with them. I remember a few years ago being on a train back from an away day at Fir Park and there was a group of Hibs supporters singing the Edinburgh is wonderdul song. Which is pretty vile.

[Lancs Harp]

My one and only post on this subject.
There are one or two people on this thread who have or had relationships with people from different ethnic backgrounds who tell a different story or have different experiences to people who haven't. My own personal experience I was engaged to a girl from South Africa who wasnt white. She was coloured, its stamped on her ID and she still lives in Eesterust Pretoria. What in many countries in the world (not the racially backward country that is the UK)Coloured means mixed race. In South Africa for instance you are Black, white or Coloured (once again mixed race) its the reason black people object to being called coloured, they are not mixed race. Coloured people in eastern Province in SA make up the majority of the population.of course reading this thread people are unaware of this or put another way ignorant.

I could tell you story after story about racism especially in SA. The one that really brought it home to me was me and my other half went to Durban for a weekend break. It was lovely, a great beach. but back in the day it was split into three sectors, black white and coloured no race could go into the sectors of a different race. I was taken aback. I asked what would happen if you did go into a different sector on the beach, like me and her. She smiled and said well you would have been ok you would would have just got told off, Im coloured I would probably been put in prison for the night. It hit me so hard, how could that have possibly been the case, what a ****ed up society.

Back to Britain, the general assumption is we aren't racist and represent a fair and just approach to the world but if you have been in a relationship with some one of a different racial background you will undoubtedly have a different tale to tell and this coming from these fair Isles that colonised and subsequently exploited a third of the world and not for those peoples benefits and now seems fit to lecture the rest of the world on racism and exploitation something Britain has never understood or accepted its role in it.

Does Racism exist in Britain. Massively, its why its in the news every day. Dont bury your head in the sand.

Love this site but had to speak out, too many people dont understand.

[Jones28]

You don't have to associate with them. I remember a few years ago being on a train back from an away day at Fir Park and there was a group of Hibs supporters singing the Edinburgh is wonderdul song. Which is pretty vile.

I was leaving Fir Park a couple of years ago and I THINK I heard the guys with the drum sing an extra verse to the song about Djoum. Racial slur rhyming with Cameroon.

[Keith_M]

Looks like Valencia know what to do to combat racism.

[hibby rae]

My one and only post on this subject.
There are one or two people on this thread who have or had relationships with people from different ethnic backgrounds who tell a different story or have different experiences to people who haven't. My own personal experience I was engaged to a girl from South Africa who wasnt white. She was coloured, its stamped on her ID and she still lives in Eesterust Pretoria. What in many countries in the world (not the racially backward country that is the UK)Coloured means mixed race. In South Africa for instance you are Black, white or Coloured (once again mixed race) its the reason black people object to being called coloured, they are not mixed race. Coloured people in eastern Province in SA make up the majority of the population.of course reading this thread people are unaware of this or put another way ignorant.

I could tell you story after story about racism especially in SA. The one that really brought it home to me was me and my other half went to Durban for a weekend break. It was lovely, a great beach. but back in the day it was split into three sectors, black white and coloured no race could go into the sectors of a different race. I was taken aback. I asked what would happen if you did go into a different sector on the beach, like me and her. She smiled and said well you would have been ok you would would have just got told off, Im coloured I would probably been put in prison for the night. It hit me so hard, how could that have possibly been the case, what a ****ed up society.

Back to Britain, the general assumption is we aren't racist and represent a fair and just approach to the world but if you have been in a relationship with some one of a different racial background you will undoubtedly have a different tale to tell and this coming from these fair Isles that colonised and subsequently exploited a third of the world and not for those peoples benefits and now seems fit to lecture the rest of the world on racism and exploitation something Britain has never understood or accepted its role in it.

Does Racism exist in Britain. Massively, its why its in the news every day. Dont bury your head in the sand.

Love this site but had to speak out, too many people dont understand.

👏👏👏👏

[hibby rae]

I was leaving Fir Park a couple of years ago and I THINK I heard the guys with the drum sing an extra verse to the song about Djoum. Racial slur rhyming with Cameroon.

I wouldn't be surprised. There will be elements within the support of various degrees of ignorance and prejudice.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I never said that.

I don’t live in a bubble, I just don’t associate with racists :aok:

You've shared a stand with several if you've ever been to Easter Road or indeed any other ground in Scotland.

[WhileTheChief..]

Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but I’ve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.

[bigwheel]

Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but I’ve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.

Never heard Hibs fans singing the Skacel song ??


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[HibeeHibernian4]

Probably passed a few walking along Princes St too but I’ve never heard anyone using racist language or abusing someone.

You've either got incredibly fortunate with who you've been sat/stood near, or you aren't paying much attention. I could list at least ten examples of racism (ranging from casual to downright vile) that I've heard being spouted by Hibs fans.

[BlackSheep]

A very fortunate position to be in, but certainly not proof that the issue isn’t there, which I’m not saying WhiletheChief is saying.

It is a question of what a lot of people understand to be racist as well, the level of comfort one has with hearing certain racist words/terms simply because they’re not used in an aggressive manner towards another person.

The problem needs a cure that starts at the root, and the root is turning a blind eye to what some consider to be casual or outdated racism.

To try and bring the original purpose of this thread back in here, taking a knee or taking a stand before games highlights the need to reflect on the topic, it poses questions and opens discussions like this. It may be considered a token gesture but without it there are many who simply wouldn’t be aware of the issue at all.

[calumhibee1]

I see England fans were booing the players taking the knee last night..

[blackpoolhibs]

Do we still do it?:confused:

[calumhibee1]

Do we still do it?:confused:

I’m fairly certain we didn’t in the final. Think St Johnstone did though.

[Brightside]

Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.

[calumhibee1]

Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.

:agree:

I can understand the argument for not doing it anymore.

Booing because people do though is poor to say the least.

[matty_f]

Why a football fan would feel the need to boo any kind of supportive gesture is perhaps part of the problem.

:agree: I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

[ian cruise]

:agree: I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

Unfortunately right-wing groups with racist undertones managed to convince many that this was political and not about equality and equity. The press played right in to their hands as it sold papers/encouraged clicks online.

The points made by Calum and yourself are correct, booing someone who is supporting anti-racism is a terrible state of affairs and should a distinct lack of class at best, or. proof the UK has a much wider racism problem than the government would like us to believe

[WestCoastHibby]

Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.
That'll be ageist then.

[Swedish hibee]

Because old people are racist. Everyone knows that.

The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?

[Brightside]

The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?

eh? Is it a load of guys in their 90s at the game last night?

[JeMeSouviens]

:agree: I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

The "I'm not racist but ..." section of society.

"I'm not racist but it's political correctness gone mad."
"I'm not racist but if they don't like it here they can always leave."
"I'm not racist but it's our culture and traditions."

etc

[Peevemor]

That'll be ageist then.


The same people that went through war for freedom for everyone?

Yep :agree:. I was being as ageist as I was being serious.

[hibsbollah]

:agree: I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

Racists.

Arguing anything else is total deflection. Sadly folk seem to want to.

[Andy74]

:agree: I could understand if the taking the knee was a gesture to support independence or unionism, or in support of nuclear missiles, but who the **** is against anti-racism?

I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.

[wookie70]

Racists.

Arguing anything else is total deflection. Sadly folk seem to want to.

Totally agree. Booing an anti-racist gesture means you are either racist or thick but most likely both. I'm pretty sure we never took the knee at the Cup Final. I'd rather we did or at the very least started a new initiative that was just as visible and regular. From what I can see in terms of the big issues in English politics over the years racism is very much on the rise and is no longer something that people are ashamed of or want to keep to themselves. Blaming foreigners wins votes and is very popular in England from what I can see.

[WeeRussell]

I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.

They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

[Kato]

I think we've all been down this discussion route before and I get that point but you'd think there has to be more to it than that.

You can be against the gesture without being against the thing that it is behind.

Booing is of course a bit of a crude way of making any sort of point but do fans who've been out the stadium a long time have another way to voice something?

A couple of examples of why people might boo this:

They don't agree that football that football should be trying to solve all of the world's issues all of the time and they are fundamentally against a prolonged and ongoing gesture / statement / campaign of any kind.
They still don't understand or know that it isn't linked directly anymore with BLM and that have some issues with that movement, not linked to the racial aspect.

It is happening pretty much every game now with fans in and I think it is too simplistic to say all those people are being actively racist. I think it would be useful for there to be an understanding of what people are booing about.Or you go the non- circulatory way and just come to the conclusion that they are racists.

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[AliboyFC]

They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

Hertz fans did for the pope didn't they? Weirdo diet huns.

[hibsbollah]

Totally agree. Booing an anti-racist gesture means you are either racist or thick but most likely both. I'm pretty sure we never took the knee at the Cup Final. I'd rather we did or at the very least started a new initiative that was just as visible and regular. From what I can see in terms of the big issues in English politics over the years racism is very much on the rise and is no longer something that people are ashamed of or want to keep to themselves. Blaming foreigners wins votes and is very popular in England from what I can see.

I take a different view, I think the gesture has become a joke, a representation of the dismal failure to change anything post George Floyd. to the point where racially abusing athletes online has become normal and normalised, angry Gammon England is having a backlash because they don’t like being told what to do and what to think. So large numbers of people who want BLM folk to shut up and get back in their box are booing the gesture. Wilfred Zaha spoke intelligently about it the other day.

[Andy74]

Or you go the non- circulatory way and just come to the conclusion that they are racists.

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Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.

[hibsbollah]

Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.

That massive big grey thing over there, with the wrinkled skin and the big ears and the trunk? What do you think it is?

[JimBHibees]

:agree:

I can understand the argument for not doing it anymore.

Booing because people do though is poor to say the least.

Kind of where I am. Why boo if you don't agree just shut up as the assumption whether fair or not will be you are booing because you are racist?

[Kato]

Yes, you can but it’s unlikely to give you the right answer or a way to address it.So is it "unlikely" that those booing are racist?

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[Andy74]

Kind of where I am. Why boo if you don't agree just shut up as the assumption whether fair or not will be you are booing because you are racist?

I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?

[Since452]

If they players made a stand against religious bigotry i think it would help in this country. Taking the knee definitely raised awareness for the BLM movement.

[Andy74]

So is it "unlikely" that those booing are racist?

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I don’t know, there’s likely a range of reasons they’ve decided to boo. I couldn’t positively say they are all racist though without finding out why.

I don’t stand up and join in with the minutes applause that we started to get just about every week, sometimes multiple times a week. When everyone else is standing up and applauding then my sitting down and watching the game could be taken as disrespectful. I’m not against showing respect to dead people, but I am against the practice of how it began to be done.

I certainly wouldn’t boo mind you so my feelings on it will go largely unnoticed.

[WhileTheChief..]

Unfortunately right-wing groups with racist undertones managed to convince many that this was political and not about equality and equity. The press played right in to their hands as it sold papers/encouraged clicks online.

The points made by Calum and yourself are correct, booing someone who is supporting anti-racism is a terrible state of affairs and should a distinct lack of class at best, or. proof the UK has a much wider racism problem than the government would like us to believe

This is news to me. Which groups are you talking about here? Which papers?

Sorry but just sounds like hyperbole.

Maybe people are able to make up their own minds!

[Bristolhibby]

They don't agree that football should be helping trying to solve the world's issues - so they boo people taking the knee against racism?

Would these same non-racist people boo through a minute's silence for someone having passed away because they don't think these things should be in football either?

I’ll wager a large amount that those booing last night would 100% be in outrage and booing at James McClean not wearing a Poppy.

Racist hypocrites.

J

[JimBHibees]

I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?

I might not agree with a minutes silence for particular people who may have no or any relevance to football however I wouldn't ever think of disrespecting the silence. Think the same applies in that the assumption is that they are booing to disagree with the cause of racial equality. In terms of actions they can put pressure on their club that they don't agree with the knee rather than booing. Fancy booing something that your international or club team are doing which the players have agreed to do in teams which in many cases have a number of black players many of which have been attacked online because of what race they are. Absolutely shocking imo and would be surprised if anyone booing wasnt doing it for racist reasons.

[WeeRussell]

I don’t know, there’s likely a range of reasons they’ve decided to boo. I couldn’t positively say they are all racist though without finding out why.

I don’t stand up and join in with the minutes applause that we started to get just about every week, sometimes multiple times a week. When everyone else is standing up and applauding then my sitting down and watching the game could be taken as disrespectful. I’m not against showing respect to dead people, but I am against the practice of how it began to be done.

I certainly wouldn’t boo mind you so my feelings on it will go largely unnoticed.

But why do you feel the need to find another reason or understand the sentiments behind booing an action which is wholly and purely about anti-racism and equality?

Regards your point about not joining in with observing applause out of respect (and similar to my earlier question re silences) - if you did start booing while people observed the recent passing of (let's say an ex footballer) would you not rightly expect to be 100% criticised, and surely you wouldn't hope for someone to be making excuses for you or saying it's the only way for you to express your view?

I mean this in the politest possible but most serious way - I really think you need to ask yourself why you are so keen to defend and look for excuses for people booing anti-racist actions, without just brushing it off as adding balance or trying to understand the deeper reasoning.

[WeeRussell]

This is news to me. Which groups are you talking about here? Which papers?

Sorry but just sounds like hyperbole.

Maybe people are able to make up their own minds!

You're correct that there are definitely enough thick and racist people in the country without it - but the press can and do have an influence.

[CockneyRebel]

I get the point, of course, but just shutting up if you don’t agree with something can’t be right either.

What avenue to fans have, if they believe they have a point to make, whatever that is, to a gesture?


It's weird, I believe in the stand being made but was never happy with folk taking the knee. Seems too much like a servile gesture to me like bowing, curtseying or tugging a forelock kind of thing. Probably just me, although I would never boo a righteous cause.

[Andy74]

But why do you feel the need to find another reason or understand the sentiments behind booing an action which is wholly and purely about anti-racism and equality?

Regards your point about not joining in with observing applause out of respect (and similar to my earlier question re silences) - if you did start booing while people observed the recent passing of (let's say an ex footballer) would you not rightly expect to be 100% criticised, and surely you wouldn't hope for someone to be making excuses for you or saying it's the only way for you to express your view?

I mean this in the politest possible but most serious way - I really think you need to ask yourself why you are so keen to defend and look for excuses for people booing anti-racist actions, without just brushing it off as adding balance or trying to understand the deeper reasoning.

In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.

[hibsbollah]

It's weird, I believe in the stand being made but was never happy with folk taking the knee. Seems too much like a servile gesture to me like bowing, curtseying or tugging a forelock kind of thing. Probably just me, although I would never boo a righteous cause.

That’s exactly what Zaha said.

[WeeRussell]

In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.

Yes, trying to change the behaviour of racists. Pretending people aren't racist won't help that.

The campaign has been very effective in raising awareness and addressing the subject, while there is much work to be done. Whether the current BLM action needs adapted etc is another discussion. But racists booing anti-racism isn't a fault of the campaign.

[Andy74]

Yes, trying to change the behaviour of racists. Pretending people aren't racist won't help that.

The campaign has been very effective in raising awareness and addressing the subject, while there is much work to be done. Whether the current BLM action needs adapted etc is another discussion. But racists booing anti-racism isn't a fault of the campaign.

You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.

[jacomo]

That’s exactly what Zaha said.


He’s wrong though.

It came from Colin Kapernick and the context was standing for the American national anthem before every (American) football game.

We don’t have that same tradition in the UK so the context is different, but that is where ‘taking the knee’ come from. Not a servile gesture at all.

[Kato]

You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.All of them are booing the gesture?

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[Dalianwanda]

They werent boing the action they were booing the sentiment attached to it. We might feel that the action has run its course or not but to boo it shows you are against the sentiment (taking a knee on its own means nothing apart from the meaning you give to it). The sentiment in this case is taking a stand against racism so anyone booing that is booing against a stand needing to be taken.

You dont boo something you dont understand, you boo something because you are against it.

[jacomo]

In your last point, if you want to address it or stop it, then you find out why they’re doing it.

Gareth Southgate mentioned something similar last night that they have to be misunderstanding something in the messaging. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s not.

Labelling them all racists and just carrying on is fine of course but aren’t we trying to change behaviour and educate where possible in all this too?

Any campaign should also be effective and if it isn’t working or not being taken on board to the extent that people are booing part of it then it pays to understand why.


The folk who booed last night are f****** morons.

I’m all for educating people, but they have to be willing to be educated. Sometimes there is no understanding.

[WeeRussell]

You are talking about BLM so you are also partly confused about what the current gesture means.

You think they are booing anti racism. I suspect they are booing the gesture for what could be a few reasons. Not the same.

I'm not confused. The Black Lives Matter slogan being used in our sport, and the gesture of taking the knee is solely about equality and taking a stand against racism.

I know you are referring to the sudden use of the word 'Marxist' which the majority of these balloons booing couldn't even spell, never mind explain why it makes them boo an anti-racist gesture, again by way of excusing racists.

Why do you think they're suddenly all concerned about Marxism and left wing organisations rather than happy to see footballers take a stand against racism?

[Kato]

I'm not confused. The Black Lives Matter slogan being used in our sport, and the gesture of taking the knee is solely about equality and taking a stand against racism.

I know you are referring to the sudden use of the word 'Marxist' which the majority of these balloons booing couldn't even spell, never mind explain why it makes them boo an anti-racist gesture, again by way of excusing racists.

Why do you think they're suddenly all concerned about Marxism and left wing organisations rather than happy to see footballers take a stand against racism?I remember when they used to make monkey noises and throw bananas as a gesture against Marxism, or maybe that was something else. It was remiss of me at the time to ask the reasons they were doing these things.

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[Andy74]

I'm not confused. The Black Lives Matter slogan being used in our sport, and the gesture of taking the knee is solely about equality and taking a stand against racism.

I know you are referring to the sudden use of the word 'Marxist' which the majority of these balloons booing couldn't even spell, never mind explain why it makes them boo an anti-racist gesture, again by way of excusing racists.

Why do you think they're suddenly all concerned about Marxism and left wing organisations rather than happy to see footballers take a stand against racism?

You’re confused because the pivot has been away from BLM to a general anti racism message.

The fact you are still talking about BLM is illustrating what I’m talking about. Some of those fans will still think it is a BLM message and some of those fans may have concerns over some of the BLM political aims.

They might be wrong in that on a number of fronts but it will be a reason for some booing and it is not racially motivated.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's weird, I believe in the stand being made but was never happy with folk taking the knee. Seems too much like a servile gesture to me like bowing, curtseying or tugging a forelock kind of thing. Probably just me, although I would never boo a righteous cause.

It's supposed to make a point while not being disrespectful of the US anthem:


Neither the image of King nor the slave provided the inspiration for Kaepernick, however. It is often forgotten that his initial protest was to remain seated for the national anthem, mirroring a 1996 protest by the NBA basketball player Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, who took the same action citing US tyranny.

It was Nate Boyer, a white former NFL player and army veteran, who advised Kaepernick to take a knee instead of sitting down. Boyer told National Public Radio: “In my opinions and in my experience, kneeling’s never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. I mean, people kneel when they get knighted. You kneel to propose to your wife, and you take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brother’s grave to pay respects. So I thought, if anything, besides standing, that was the most respectful.”

[WeeRussell]

I remember when they used to make monkey noises and throw bananas as a gesture against Marxism, or maybe that was something else. It was remiss of me at the time to ask the reasons they were doing these things.

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Exactly, and really do think it's that simple.


@Andy74 - I don't think we're going to talk one another round on this one. I will say one thing for you: for all that your views are often totally at odds with my own (very much including this topic), you always seem to conduct yourself correctly and keep the posts proper and impersonal while sticking to your guns more often than not against a majority. Given the amount of petty abuse on this place recently over much more trivial and unimportant issues, thought it was worth highlighting.

[WeeRussell]

You’re confused because the pivot has been away from BLM to a general anti racism message.

The fact you are still talking about BLM is illustrating what I’m talking about. Some of those fans will still think it is a BLM message and some of those fans may have concerns over some of the BLM political aims.

They might be wrong in that on a number of fronts but it will be a reason for some booing and it is not racially motivated.

I assure you I'm not confused - I talk about Black Lives Matter because, to be absolutely clear, it doesn't matter whether they were using that as a slogan or not... there is absolutely no reason why someone who isn't racist should be booing any of the anti-racism action that has taken place in football.

Again - why do you think so many people are apparently suddenly concerned about Marxist politics, to the extent that they need to boo anti-racist activism?

[ian cruise]

This is news to me. Which groups are you talking about here? Which papers?

Sorry but just sounds like hyperbole.

Maybe people are able to make up their own minds!

Just one article that calls out the impact the adverse headlines in The Telegraph, The Sun etc. had on people's view of the movement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/20/black-lives-matter-rightwing-media

[jacomo]

You’re confused because the pivot has been away from BLM to a general anti racism message.

The fact you are still talking about BLM is illustrating what I’m talking about. Some of those fans will still think it is a BLM message and some of those fans may have concerns over some of the BLM political aims.

They might be wrong in that on a number of fronts but it will be a reason for some booing and it is not racially motivated.


Go on, tell us: what are the BLM political aims?

You are trying very hard to justify the unjustifiable, for some reason.

[DH1875]

Wasn't just the cup final. We didn't take the knee in a few games towards the end of the season.

[northstandhibby]

Politics should be reserved for the Holy Ground.

[wookie70]

Just one article that calls out the impact the adverse headlines in The Telegraph, The Sun etc. had on people's view of the movement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/20/black-lives-matter-rightwing-media

Enjoyed that article and it echoes my thoughts on the matter. Having had a good look at the BLM UK website I can see nothing that suggests it is left wing unless of course you think equality is only the pursuit of the left(I wouldn't blame you for thinking that in the UK). Not sure that really matters anyway as the gesture had nothing to do with BLM to start with and is actually a fantastic story of how optics work and how two individuals talked and sorted out a better way of demonstrating. There is something in the history that also suggests the gesture may need looked at if it is becoming counter-productive but the message must remain and be demonstrated often and in the most visible way. The method Nate Boyer used to convince Kaepernick to take the knee is how you support the message but disagree with the gesture. Booing only suggests one thing to me.

I hate Tories to the core and am not that keen on Morris dancing but if a Tory wants to Morris dance as a gesture to stop racism he has my full support. I wouldn't boo him because I don't like his party and his means for demonstrating his belief, I would support him and agree to agree on the things we can.

The UK press, as ever, have created their Bogeyman or Bogey Organisation and are trying to force an issue from their own right wing agenda of xenophobia and hatred. If those that are booing are doing so because of some crazy ideas about BLM or Marxism then she should try and find a way of demonstrating that makes it clear that they are happy with the anti-racism message but not the organisation or gesture. I'd rather players took the knee but if they all stood together or similar and made the message very clear that this was their way of demonstrating against racism then I don't agree but wouldn't have too much of an issue. Booing is a very clear and recognised gesture and in this case is simply saying I don't agree with the message. Do those booing boo at people doing lunges as a warm up as that is the position most managers take while taking the knee. Not heard anyone ripping into managers because their gesture is slightly different but clearly giving the same message. Should I boo Jack Ross when we get back to ER as he isn't quite taking the knee due to his expensive troosers.

[CockneyRebel]

That’s exactly what Zaha said.


Well I am an Eagle in exile :greengrin although I have not seen Wilf's article yet.

[Crunchie]

Exactly, and really do think it's that simple.


@Andy74 - I don't think we're going to talk one another round on this one. I will say one thing for you: for all that your views are often totally at odds with my own (very much including this topic), you always seem to conduct yourself correctly and keep the posts proper and impersonal while sticking to your guns more often than not against a majority. Given the amount of petty abuse on this place recently over much more trivial and unimportant issues, thought it was worth highlighting.
Quality post mate :aok:

[JimBHibees]

Wasn't just the cup final. We didn't take the knee in a few games towards the end of the season.

I think the team agreed to stand rather than take the knee for the last part of the season.

[WhileTheChief..]

Just one article that calls out the impact the adverse headlines in The Telegraph, The Sun etc. had on people's view of the movement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/20/black-lives-matter-rightwing-media


Thanks for posting.

Decent read but a typical article that could have come from any of the left wing media. Heard it many times.

The Guardian is just as bad as the Mail stirring up hatred. It’s just as guilty of perpetuating the phoney culture war, just from the other side.

If it’s clickbait for the Mail and Express, it’s the same for the Guardian or I.

[WhileTheChief..]

Enjoyed that article and it echoes my thoughts on the matter. Having had a good look at the BLM UK website I can see nothing that suggests it is left wing unless of course you think equality is only the pursuit of the left(I wouldn't blame you for thinking that in the UK). Not sure that really matters anyway as the gesture had nothing to do with BLM to start with and is actually a fantastic story of how optics work and how two individuals talked and sorted out a better way of demonstrating. There is something in the history that also suggests the gesture may need looked at if it is becoming counter-productive but the message must remain and be demonstrated often and in the most visible way. The method Nate Boyer used to convince Kaepernick to take the knee is how you support the message but disagree with the gesture. Booing only suggests one thing to me.

I hate Tories to the core and am not that keen on Morris dancing but if a Tory wants to Morris dance as a gesture to stop racism he has my full support. I wouldn't boo him because I don't like his party and his means for demonstrating his belief, I would support him and agree to agree on the things we can.

The UK press, as ever, have created their Bogeyman or Bogey Organisation and are trying to force an issue from their own right wing agenda of xenophobia and hatred. If those that are booing are doing so because of some crazy ideas about BLM or Marxism then she should try and find a way of demonstrating that makes it clear that they are happy with the anti-racism message but not the organisation or gesture. I'd rather players took the knee but if they all stood together or similar and made the message very clear that this was their way of demonstrating against racism then I don't agree but wouldn't have too much of an issue. Booing is a very clear and recognised gesture and in this case is simply saying I don't agree with the message. Do those booing boo at people doing lunges as a warm up as that is the position most managers take while taking the knee. Not heard anyone ripping into managers because their gesture is slightly different but clearly giving the same message. Should I boo Jack Ross when we get back to ER as he isn't quite taking the knee due to his expensive troosers.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.

[WeeRussell]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.

Every so often a post on hibs.net staggers me...

Aside from any argument about if that website is representative of the campaigns taking place in UK-based sport, and also the fact that examples of each of the above have happened in our country (albeit nowhere near the the same level as America)... are you seriously questioning why people in Scotland would want to support a cause that tackles all of your points in bold above? Furthermore, how on earth can you fully understand people not wanting anything to do with BLM because of the parts you've highlighted?! Why would anyone not want to see an end to the targeting and oppression of black people :confused:

I think the first part of your post that I have highlighted, together with the second might sum up why you are missing the point in a lot of this.

[WeeRussell]

Thanks for posting.

Decent read but a typical article that could have come from any of the left wing media. Heard it many times.

The Guardian is just as bad as the Mail stirring up hatred. It’s just as guilty of perpetuating the phoney culture war, just from the other side.

If it’s clickbait for the Mail and Express, it’s the same for the Guardian or I.

So which was it... a decent read, or just typical left wing media stirring up hatred and perpetuating a phoney war :confused:

[Gareth]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/
Have a quick read.
They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.
Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?
They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.
There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.

Opening page of Black Lives Matter UK
"We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation."
https://blacklivesmatter.uk/
Now what's your or anyone elses problem with any of that?

[bigwheel]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.


Jeez, you are trying hard to justify not supporting this….is it this website you think about when you see people taking the knee ? You don’t rise way above that and consider the action is about the daily plight of minorities and people of colour ?

There is nothing about it that is negative. Not supporting it, or booing, disregards and disrespects the call for inclusion and equality that is the true spirit of the act of “ taking the knee “


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[WhileTheChief..]

Opening page of Black Lives Matter UK
"We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation."
https://blacklivesmatter.uk/
Now what's your or anyone elses problem with any of that?

No problem with that at all.

It’s entirely different to the US website though.

[WhileTheChief..]

So which was it... a decent read, or just typical left wing media stirring up hatred and perpetuating a phoney war :confused:

A decent read, I just don’t agree with much of it.

Both the left and right wing media talk about ‘phoney culture wars’.

[WhileTheChief..]

Every so often a post on hibs.net staggers me...

Aside from any argument about if that website is representative of the campaigns taking place in UK-based sport, and also the fact that examples of each of the above have happened in our country (albeit nowhere near the the same level as America)... are you seriously questioning why people in Scotland would want to support a cause that tackles all of your points in bold above? Furthermore, how on earth can you fully understand people not wanting anything to do with BLM because of the parts you've highlighted?! Why would anyone not want to see an end to the targeting and oppression of black people :confused:

I think the first part of your post that I have highlighted, together with the second might sum up why you are missing the point in a lot of this.

Happy to be admit I may have picked things up wrong. I’d rather be proved wrong than go on thinking I’m right :aok:

[WeeRussell]

Happy to be admit I may have picked things up wrong. I’d rather be proved wrong than go on thinking I’m right :aok:

Cheers for taking the time to reply to what was quite a few posts 👍

Not so much about proving anyone right or wrong for me, I just genuinely fail to understand the logic behind booing such an initiative. My point to you was that the language in what you quoted seemed very inoffensive and very much about equality. I could’ve understood your stance if it was all about ‘black power’ or flipping the balance round on its head.

Let’s say you genuinely haven’t heard a racist word in Scotland in decades owing to only associating with non-racists. And even if you (now the royal you) doubted the first-hand accounts of those telling you there are issues with racists in the UK, and were happy to live life blissfully unaware of any problem. I still fail to see why non-racist people would be so angrily against anything like taking the knee or BLM messaging in sport. They could just ignore it if anti-racism really isn’t for them or they have no interest.

I don’t have much interest in mascots or a lot of the half time entertainment at football, but it’s never dawned on me to boo it or go radge on social media about it. I don’t tend to enter the happy hibee draw at Easter road, but I’m not against it.

But again, it comes back to not understanding why anyone, other than racists (or people that don’t want to see change but also don’t want to be called racists), would genuinely take issue with such things.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t think I’ve commented on taking the knee in over a year, I was only looking at the BLM website.

I know this is going off on a tangent, but I see them as militant organisation that is trying to say that white supremacy is the cause of all black peoples problems. I just completely disagree with that.

Regarding the specific point as to why people boo players taking the knee, I don’t know.

My guess would be it’s a protest about using football as the vehicle to deliver the message, not the message itself.

[WeeRussell]

I don’t think I’ve commented on taking the knee in over a year, I was only looking at the BLM website.

I know this is going off on a tangent, but I see them as militant organisation that is trying to say that white supremacy is the cause of all black peoples problems. I just completely disagree with that.

Regarding the specific point as to why people boo players taking the knee, I don’t know.

My guess would be it’s a protest about using football as the vehicle to deliver the message, not the message itself.

You’ve been replying to posts about taking the knee throughout this thread, though I do accept some people have been switching between the general campaign and taking the knee. As I say, for me it’s all lumped together in people suspiciously finding excuses to take issue with it.

I won’t go into the rest of your post as I’ve typed plenty on that on this thread already 😂

[Malthibby]

Opening page of Black Lives Matter UK
"We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation."
https://blacklivesmatter.uk/
Now what's your or anyone elses problem with any of that?

Exactly. BLM is about tackling racism, folk who boo folk taking the knee are racists, or are falling for the guff spouted by racists. We have our fair share of racists, it's a Scottish problem as well and we become part of the problem if
we fall prey to folk who are simply trying to muddy the water.

[JimBHibees]

Thanks for posting.

Decent read but a typical article that could have come from any of the left wing media. Heard it many times.

The Guardian is just as bad as the Mail stirring up hatred. It’s just as guilty of perpetuating the phoney culture war, just from the other side.

If it’s clickbait for the Mail and Express, it’s the same for the Guardian or I.

That is quite simply nonsense there is no equivalence between the level of hatred.

[Alfred E Newman]

Politics should be reserved for the Holy Ground.

:agree:

Unfortunately your plea appears to be falling on deaf ears.

[Newry Hibs]

Exactly. BLM is about tackling racism, folk who boo folk taking the knee are racists, or are falling for the guff spouted by racists. We have our fair share of racists, it's a Scottish problem as well and we become part of the problem if
we fall prey to folk who are simply trying to muddy the water.
People who boo are racist. Nonsense. BLM are a political organisarion with their own fair share of racists who support black supremacy and use intimidatory tactics to get people to 'agree' with them.

Having some kind of **** test 'if you dont kneel, you're against us'is school playground form of argument.

BLM is all over tv coverage, stadiums and has been on players shirts (in England).

I dont remember any issue with kick it out.

[jacomo]

I don’t think I’ve commented on taking the knee in over a year, I was only looking at the BLM website.

I know this is going off on a tangent, but I see them as militant organisation that is trying to say that white supremacy is the cause of all black peoples problems. I just completely disagree with that.

Regarding the specific point as to why people boo players taking the knee, I don’t know.

My guess would be it’s a protest about using football as the vehicle to deliver the message, not the message itself.


All you’re doing here is revealing your own bias.

Players are continuing to take the knee because the message still isn’t getting through. Judging by your comment, they are right.

[WhileTheChief..]

All you’re doing here is revealing your own bias.

Players are continuing to take the knee because the message still isn’t getting through. Judging by your comment, they are right.

Maybe you’re right, I’ve definitely not paid as much attention to them as most on here seem to have done.

[Jones28]

:agree:

Unfortunately your plea appears to be falling on deaf ears.

Tbf this is about as close to the two merging as is possible.

[WeeRussell]

Tbf this is about as close to the two merging as is possible.

And while there may be an argument for the thread being in the holy ground, does it really f***king matter that much to people 😂

Always find it amusing when someone drops in just to say a thread should be moved. Does anyone actually read every single thread on any board? I choose about a handful at the most that interest me.

Each to their own of course, I just always find it a strange gripe. Especially when folk get really worked up about it.

[Jones28]

And while there may be an argument for the thread being in the holy ground, does it really f***king matter that much to people 😂

Always find it amusing when someone drops in just to say a thread should be moved. Does anyone actually read every single thread on any board? I choose about a handful at the most that interest me.

Each to their own of course, I just always find it a strange gripe. Especially when folk get really worked up about it.

Exactly. It’s not like there’s much happening 😂

[wookie70]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.

The other replies have covered what I think but I did specifically say the BLM UK site and like others I take a world view on equality and can't really see what issues anyone could have with the page you linked to. Where you are born and what genes and race you have are not something you can determine or change but they do determine how the state treats you in the US and although it might not be quite as horrific here, those injustices still happen.

For me the sentence on the page you linked to that sums up BLM is this "We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise." That shows how far away Black people are from equality and that the most pressing need is to stop being specifically targeted.

[Mutu]

I have nothing to add to this thread but thought it worth mentioning that this thread is a credit to the forum. Thoughtful, non-reactionary posts on a very delicate topic conducted in a respectful manner.

As you were...

[jacomo]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.


This is the key question isn’t it?

The right wing media (ie the majority) will tell you that people in Britain *shouldn’t* have reacted to George Floyd’s death in the way they did, because the experience of black people in America is very different to black people in the UK.

And yet that murder resonated with people in Britain.

So, maybe, instead of getting cross about that, walk a mile in someone else’s shoes and try to understand their perspective.

[bigwheel]

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Have a quick read.

They talk about ending state violence and vigilante attacks against black people. They talk about working for a world where black people are no longer targeted for demise. They talk about facing deadly oppression.

Has any of that ever been an issue in Scotland? Why is BLM even a thing in this country?

They have a very narrow mission statement and I can fully understand why people don’t want to be associated with them. Nothing to do with Marx or any other BS.

There is no mention of equality on their website anywhere, which is kinda strange.


why not ask that to some black or minority friends or colleagues if it is a “thing here”?? Ask them and listen to their stories of racism, inequality lack of inclusion .....

[hibsbollah]

I have nothing to add to this thread but thought it worth mentioning that this thread is a credit to the forum. Thoughtful, non-reactionary posts on a very delicate topic conducted in a respectful manner.

As you were...

I think the thread is also reflective of the .net user demographic. I’d be surprised if there were (m)any regular contributors on here who have regular experience of racist abuse or being a victim of systematic racism.

[WhileTheChief..]

This is the key question isn’t it?

The right wing media (ie the majority) will tell you that people in Britain *shouldn’t* have reacted to George Floyd’s death in the way they did, because the experience of black people in America is very different to black people in the UK.

And yet that murder resonated with people in Britain.

So, maybe, instead of getting cross about that, walk a mile in someone else’s shoes and try to understand their perspective.

I’m not cross, mad, upset, annoyed or anything else, just shooting the breeze really, having a chat if you like.

I’m all for equality but I don’t buy into BLMs stance that the state target BAME people or that black people are “systematically targeted for demise”.

[WhileTheChief..]

The other replies have covered what I think but I did specifically say the BLM UK site and like others I take a world view on equality and can't really see what issues anyone could have with the page you linked to. Where you are born and what genes and race you have are not something you can determine or change but they do determine how the state treats you in the US and although it might not be quite as horrific here, those injustices still happen.

For me the sentence on the page you linked to that sums up BLM is this "We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise." That shows how far away Black people are from equality and that the most pressing need is to stop being specifically targeted.

I’ve highlighted the last part of the sentence you referred to as that is the point I disagree with.

I’m not arguing about equality in the slightest. I just don’t agree with BLM.

[jacomo]

I’m not cross, mad, upset, annoyed or anything else, just shooting the breeze really, having a chat if you like.

I’m all for equality but I don’t buy into BLMs stance that the state target BAME people or that black people are “systematically targeted for demise”.


For what it’s worth, neither do I.

But I think you’re putting too much emphasis on the organisation and trying to pick holes in it. BLM was a much more organic, grass roots idea which struck a chord with many people.

By saying you don’t agree with BLM (the organisation) you are also dismissing people’s genuine grievances.

[WhileTheChief..]

If BLMs sole aim was to help in the fight for equality for BAME people I’d be 100% behind them.

It’s not though, and therefore neither am I.

You do not need to be a supporter of BLM to be against racism.

The tone nowadays is that if you dare to question BLM you’re a racist. Bollocks to that and anyone who says it!

[bigwheel]

If BLMs sole aim was to help in the fight for equality for BAME people I’d be 100% behind them.

It’s not though, and therefore neither am I.

You do not need to be a supporter of BLM to be against racism.

The tone nowadays is that if you dare to question BLM you’re a racist. Bollocks to that and anyone who says it!

Here is the description from BLM UK website today.

What don’t you agree with ?

.......We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.

We are not operating in a political capacity, are not a member of nor are we connected with any political party or political campaign.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Here is the description from BLM UK website today.

What don’t you agree with ?

.......We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.

We are not operating in a political capacity, are not a member of nor are we connected with any political party or political campaign.

I was wondering what the political beliefs folk spoke about as a reason for booing the taking the knee. Still can’t see any from that?

[jacomo]

I was wondering what the political beliefs folk spoke about as a reason for booing the taking the knee. Still can’t see any from that?


It’s a fig leaf to try and cover bigotry, no more to it than that.

[jacomo]

If BLMs sole aim was to help in the fight for equality for BAME people I’d be 100% behind them.

It’s not though, and therefore neither am I.

You do not need to be a supporter of BLM to be against racism.

The tone nowadays is that if you dare to question BLM you’re a racist. Bollocks to that and anyone who says it!


Again, you are following the right wing media narrative that BLM is all under the control of some top down sophisticated organisation intent on anarchy and punishing white people for the crimes of their ancestors.

Stop buying into it, please!

[Kato]

Again, you are following the right wing media narrative that BLM is all under the control of some top down sophisticated organisation intent on anarchy and punishing white people for the crimes of their ancestors.

Stop buying into it, please!

Maybe to understand WTC's stance on BLM a bit better you have to know that he stated he would have voted for Trump in the last US Election.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m reading their website, nothing else!

https://blacklivesmatter.com/

Take a look and see what you think. It’s night and day compared to the UK one by all accounts.

[WhileTheChief..]

Maybe to understand WTC's stance on BLM a bit better you have to know that he stated he would have voted for Trump in the last US Election.

As mentioned earlier, I don’t have a stance, or even a strong opinion either way for that matter.

Just a chilled out chat. Cheers.

[Kato]

Here is the description from BLM UK website today.

What don’t you agree with ?

.......We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.

We are not operating in a political capacity, are not a member of nor are we connected with any political party or political campaign.A message which doesn't seem to have gotten through to a few Tory MP's. Talk about playing to the gallery.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tory-mps-attack-gareth-southgate-over-taking-the-knee-/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[bigwheel]

A message which doesn't seem to have gotten through to a few Tory MP's. Talk about playing to the gallery.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tory-mps-attack-gareth-southgate-over-taking-the-knee-/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Exactly , playing to a crowd who would have been viewed as BNP supporters 20 years ago ....

[WeeRussell]

If BLMs sole aim was to help in the fight for equality for BAME people I’d be 100% behind them.

It’s not though, and therefore neither am I.

You do not need to be a supporter of BLM to be against racism.

The tone nowadays is that if you dare to question BLM you’re a racist. Bollocks to that and anyone who says it!

It is though. You said you don’t buy into the view that targeting black people for their demise exists.. okay fine - but why does them working to stop that, if they believe it does exist, turn you against the whole movement. Is that really such a bad thing?

And how would any of that lead you to understand anyone booing footballers taking the knee?

[northstandhibby]

It is though. You said you don’t buy into the view that targeting black people for their demise exists.. okay fine - but why does them working to stop that, if they believe it does exist, turn you against the whole movement. Is that really such a bad thing?

And how would any of that lead you to understand anyone booing footballers taking the knee?

Can't you take politics to the Holy Ground where they belong?

[blackpoolhibs]

I understand why this all started, i understand why some sort of stance was needed, and was needed way before George Floyd.

But what is taking the knee achieving now, you have some teams doing it some disregarding it and in the Scottish rugby teams case, both at the same time?

And is it just football that do this?

[matty_f]

I understand why this all started, i understand why some sort of stance was needed, and was needed way before George Floyd.

But what is taking the knee achieving now, you have some teams doing it some disregarding it and in the Scottish rugby teams case, both at the same time?

And is it just football that do this?

I can’t believe you’ve asked the last question, considering the sentence immediately before. :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

I can’t believe you’ve asked the last question, considering the sentence immediately before. :greengrin
:faf:

[jacomo]

A message which doesn't seem to have gotten through to a few Tory MP's. Talk about playing to the gallery.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tory-mps-attack-gareth-southgate-over-taking-the-knee-/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


MPs are elected on political platforms but then they have a duty to represent all their constituents to the best of their abilities.

C**** like this who are more interested in perpetuating a culture war should get binned.

[makaveli1875]

I don't really know enough about BLM to have an opinion , the taking the knee thing seems played out and it doesn't seem to be doing much with all the high profile incidents that have happened since with Glen Kamara , Marcus Rashford etc .
Something needs to happen , maybe football needs to find its own thing . Still if players want to take the knee then they should be able to do it without being booed and abused from the stands.

[hibsbollah]

Lawrence Fox ‘proud of every single fan who booed. I hope more do it as the stadiums continue to fill up. Taking the knee to a Marxist cult who hate everything Britain and England stands for is embarrassing beyond belief’.

Which is it, Lawrence, Britain or England? And what do they stand for?

[bigwheel]

Lawrence Fox ‘proud of every single fan who booed. I hope more do it as the stadiums continue to fill up. Taking the knee to a Marxist cult who hate everything Britain and England stands for is embarrassing beyond belief’.

Which is it, Lawrence, Britain or England? And what do they stand for?

Siri...define **** ... [emoji3][emoji6]

[hibsbollah]

Siri...define **** ... [emoji3][emoji6]

I want these gammon snowflakes to ****ing man up and explain exactly what they mean. But they never do, just deflect deflect deflect.

[bigwheel]

I want these gammon snowflakes to ****ing man up and explain exactly what they mean. But they never do, just deflect deflect deflect.

These characters are emboldened by the fact that massive swathes of England believe that the empire was great , love the monarchy and would cheer at a “make Britain great again” chant ....in the 90s they would been seen as far right BNP supporters ..nowadays they are just Tories

[Rottenstink]

Here is the description from BLM UK website today.

What don’t you agree with ?

.......We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting Black people are treated as equals to White people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.

We are not operating in a political capacity, are not a member of nor are we connected with any political party or political campaign.

That is the redacted version for public consumption. The original manifesto called for an end to the nuclear family and the downfall of the western capitalist system. The Organisation was confounded by three “ trained Marxists”, one of whom just quit after it was discovered she’d bought four million dollar homes and that the parents of slain black kids hadn’t received a penny. One of the other founders gave a speech where she endlessly quoted Mao ( 50 plus million deaths) , and made it clear that nobody should shrink from the repercussions of the coming revolution. That is why some people are uneasy with BLM. It is important that a distrust of the org. Isn’t conflated with racism, though. I’m sure everyone was on board with the Kick Racism out of football campaign

[The dalmeny]

May have been mentioned, sorry if it has, BLM & BLM (UK) are 2 different organisations

[Rottenstink]

May have been mentioned, sorry if it has, BLM & BLM (UK) are 2 different organisations

Are race relations better or worse than they were a year ago ?

[hibee-boys]

There is obviously still much to be done to achieve a truly fair society and not just in regard to racial discrimination but religious bigotry, gender discrimination etc. When looking at the past half a century we’ve thankfully seen much of the world becoming a far more tolerant society, look at where the developed world has progressed when looking back at the civil right movement in the US, apartheid in South Africa, less sexual and gender discrimination. I think this has been achieved through better education, better parenting and producing generations that are thankfully able to decide for themselves between what is right and wrong and less swayed by previous generations where unfortunately unconscious/conscious discrimination was part of their being. From a football perspective look at how we’ve evolved over the past 30 years, looking back in ashamed at some the bile I used to spout at football games, was I brought up in a house where that was accepted, absolutely not, but it was the norm at football at that time, no excuse I know.

In summary I guess what I am saying is that societal change does not happen overnight, due to any one gesture or movement. Am I in favour of taking the knee? No I’m not, only because I think the gesture itself, however well intentioned at the outset, is more the talking point rather than what the core message is. A more tolerant society is born through better parenting, role modelling and education, this is what has driven change in my generation and I’m proud at how my two teenage daughters, and their friends, view and appreciate all the differences in society. Let’s learn from our past but let’s not finger point at behaviours of the past as I honestly don’t think a blame culture will help us on this path to a fair society, we’ve thankfully come a long way, still much to improve upon. Let’s keep talking about the issue but get up off your knees and deal with this standing side by side.

[WeeRussell]

Can't you take politics to the Holy Ground where they belong?

Can’t you stop crying over where a thread is filed?

It’s about taking the knee in football. I don’t decide where threads are situated on the forum, but I could have put the word “footballers” in bold in my post I suppose, if that stops it offending you.

[jacomo]

Lawrence Fox ‘proud of every single fan who booed. I hope more do it as the stadiums continue to fill up. Taking the knee to a Marxist cult who hate everything Britain and England stands for is embarrassing beyond belief’.

Which is it, Lawrence, Britain or England? And what do they stand for?


Fantastic. I am instinctively on the opposing side of anything that prick is arguing for, and I am pleased to be so again.

He stood for London mayor and achieved nothing except wasting a lot of money.

You’d think a little humility might be in order?

[Tommy75]

I want these gammon snowflakes to ****ing man up and explain exactly what they mean. But they never do, just deflect deflect deflect.

Keep seeing this term 'gammon' appear, what does it actually mean?

[AliboyFC]

Keep seeing this term 'gammon' appear, what does it actually mean?

It's a pig.

[MWHIBBIES]

Keep seeing this term 'gammon' appear, what does it actually mean?

When white men are angrily ranting about something like gay rights or BLM, their face goes the colour of gammon.

[JimBHibees]

Interesting dynamic by the government. One minute they say they want the whole country :greengrin to get behind the England team but make no comment on fans booing the team taking the knee. Compare and contrast with Dowden the culture and sport guy openly criticising the cricket authorities for suspending an England cricketer for racist tweets.

[heretoday]

Why do they object to taking the knee? Do they find it challenging having to stop behaving like morons for one short moment?

[Bristolhibby]

Saw this on Twitter.

People who have spent 50 yrs singing 'two world wars and one world cup' and 'no surrender to the IRA' think taking the knee has gone on for long enough now and that we should 'keep politics out of football'.

J

[blackpoolhibs]

Saw this on Twitter.

People who have spent 50 yrs singing 'two world wars and one world cup' and 'no surrender to the IRA' think taking the knee has gone on for long enough now and that we should 'keep politics out of football'.

J
:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Saw this on Twitter.

People who have spent 50 yrs singing 'two world wars and one world cup' and 'no surrender to the IRA' think taking the knee has gone on for long enough now and that we should 'keep politics out of football'.

J


:agree: This is it. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of football knows that the England national team has had a large contingent of fascist and racist fans since the 1980s. NF recruiting, trashing large parts of Europe which led to the European ban, John Barnes abuse, the Dublin riot, it’s like nobody pays attention to history. The media are discussing it like this all started with taking the knee.

[Kato]

:agree: This is it. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of football knows that the England national team has had a large contingent of fascist and racist fans since the 1980s. NF recruiting, trashing large parts of Europe which led to the European ban, John Barnes abuse, the Dublin riot, it’s like nobody pays attention to history. The media are discussing it like this all started with taking the knee.

Yeah, but they aren't booing the gesture - they are booing, from a nuanced take of investigating the Black Lives Matter website, the organisation. My left yak.

[danhibees1875]

It's a pig.

A previously ill pig, but it's now been cured.

[blackpoolhibs]

Yeah, but they aren't booing the gesture - they are booing, from a nuanced take of investigating the Black Lives Matter website, the organisation. My left yak.

I dont think most of them know why they are booing.

[Kato]

True - the big, idiotic racists start it up and all the little, more idiotic, racists fall in line behind them. It's how inadequacy works.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I dont think most of them know why they are booing.

I disagree, theyve been told to not be racist, and they don’t like being told what to do.

[DarlingtonHibee]

A previously ill pig, but it's now been cured.

Are you here all week 😂

[WeeRussell]

Saw this on Twitter.

People who have spent 50 yrs singing 'two world wars and one world cup' and 'no surrender to the IRA' think taking the knee has gone on for long enough now and that we should 'keep politics out of football'.

J

It’s not often I feel like I’m missing out by not being on Twitter anymore 👏

[hibsbollah]

Southgate speaks well. Credit to him.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-gareth-southgate-euros-soccer

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-01f798yfraha/amp

[Lancs Harp]

The Irish team tonight was roundly booed in Hungary tonight for taking the knee. Personally i think its become a controversy which is deeply disheartening in the fight for equality and the recognition of equality which imo too many people are not prepared to admit or recognise needs addressing.

[I'm Spartacus]

I'm totally not understanding the booing, anyone care to explain?

Scotland do the right thing and cheer please

[JimBHibees]

I'm totally not understanding the booing, anyone care to explain?

Scotland do the right thing and cheer please

Don't think Scotland take the knee they all stand up.

[JimBHibees]

The Irish team tonight was roundly booed in Hungary tonight for taking the knee. Personally i think its become a controversy which is deeply disheartening in the fight for equality and the recognition of equality which imo too many people are not prepared to admit or recognise needs addressing.

Just shows you how strong right wing views are at present. Depressing when politicians openly court the positions and fail to show proper leadership such as in UK.

[matty_f]

Just shows you how strong right wing views are at present. Depressing when politicians openly court the positions and fail to show proper leadership such as in UK.

:agree:

A mate of mine was saying he’d pulled his mum up for being racist and she was quite happy to stick to get guns and say she was “a bit racist” as if that was ok.

There’s overt racism in politics at the moment, people are emboldened by the Brexit attitudes and are now quite open about it. It’s a worrying trend.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Just shows you how strong right wing views are at present. Depressing when politicians openly court the positions and fail to show proper leadership such as in UK.

It’s all from the same playbook... we should be taking about Brazil more...

https://livestream.com/accounts/2754207/events/9678127/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfoAndActivity=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=true&mute=false

[Betty Boop]

When white men are angrily ranting about something like gay rights or BLM, their face goes the colour of gammon.
Is gammon not a racist slur then ?

[MWHIBBIES]

Is gammon not a racist slur then ?

Well, if everyone who gets red in the face when angry are a race, then perhaps?

[greenginger]

Well, if everyone who gets red in the face when angry are a race, then perhaps?


I always thought defining a person by the colour of their skin was racist :confused:

[hibsbollah]

Is gammon not a racist slur then ?

No.

[JimBHibees]

:agree:

A mate of mine was saying he’d pulled his mum up for being racist and she was quite happy to stick to get guns and say she was “a bit racist” as if that was ok.

There’s overt racism in politics at the moment, people are emboldened by the Brexit attitudes and are now quite open about it. It’s a worrying trend.

Couldn't agree more. Brexit campaign backed by many prominent newspapers had clearly racist overtones unfortunately it is is a mindset which struck a chord and emboldened the more extreme views in this area. Depressing

[greenginger]

Couldn't agree more. Brexit campaign backed by many prominent newspapers had clearly racist overtones unfortunately it is is a mindset which struck a chord and emboldened the more extreme views in this area. Depressing


Do you include some Scot. Nats anti English rants as racist ?

[MWHIBBIES]

I always thought defining a person by the colour of their skin was racist :confused:

Surely defining a person by their race is racist? Red in the face is not a race.

[WeeRussell]

Do you include some Scot. Nats anti English rants as racist ?

I probably would if I’d ever heard it. Quote us an anti English rant and I’ll tell you for sure.

I’ve heard Scots make anti-English remarks and jokes, I’ve heard the same towards France and Germany from English and I’ve heard numerous variations from random people that joke about people from other countries.

I’ve never heard an SNP or independent voter (assume that’s what you qualify as a ‘Scot nat’) make their political case with an “anti English rant” though. It’s not like we’re looking to ‘send those English folk home’ or anything.

[Keith_M]

When white men are angrily ranting about something like gay rights or BLM, their face goes the colour of gammon.


Surely defining a person by their race is racist? Red in the face is not a race.



:hmmm: