Jack Ross in big games

[BSEJVT]

Having been very critical of Ross last week and advocating his removal, the response to last night's defeat surprises me.

Taken in isolation last night's defeat wouldn't have caused me to light the blue touch paper as it was extremely predictable whether the manager's name was Stubbs, Lennon, Hecky or Ross and would be equally predictable going back further than that and likely further forward than Ross.

If we compete for the same players as they do and they get them every time they go for them and we don't then it is pretty likely they will beat us. That cant be placed at any managers door, but firmly at that of the board.

The difference in their squad and consequently their managers options and ours is like night and day.

I don't like watching Ross's Hibs, but if we are getting results then substance over style will have to do. When we stop getting those consistently (and last week's defeat can now be consigned to the history books) then we have a problem. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

I continue to have massive concerns over the construction of the squad, I just don't see a Plan B within it and I suppose by extension his use of substitutes, but we are where we are and short of a relegation scrap which I just don't see, we wont be changing manager soon.

When buying inferior players there is a greater risk that form will drop, form is temporary, class (or the lack thereof) is permanent and I expect we will see some very up and down performances and loss of form such as we are seeing with Doidge, Boyle & Newell now as if there wasn't then frankly they wouldn't be at Hibs.

I think this is where the small squad option falls down and Ross is and will continue to be hampered by the lack of viable options to change things with the squad he has.

There will be absolutely no cash to change that in the winter window unless Ron opens the cheque book further, which he may if 4th comes into question, as I fear it might with a resurgent Motherwell.

Right now I would reluctantly accept a fairly dull season, culminating in 4th place that will likely cause me to stop even using my Hibspass login before much longer as I don't enjoy watching Ross's Hibs huff and puff in the hope that they will eventually blow the house down.

I don't watch much football on TV at the best of times and the current no fans and no atmosphere fare just doesn't do it for me at all.

[Since452]

Some strange comments on this thread. Personally I'm over the moon with the points total and the recruitment since Ross came in. It must be easily 3rd best accumulation of points in the Premiership since he was appointed last November. Dissspointments will happen. They're part and parcel of a club with our budget. The only games we've lost this season are to clubs with bigger budgets, even Hearts have arguably a bigger budget. I'm fully behind Jack Ross, and for me he has earned the right to be cut some slack after two defeats in a row. Let's be honest it hasn't happened much under Ross.

His time at basket case Sundeland is starting to look like a resounding success going by their current predicament. Should sometimes be careful what you wish for.

Jeez imagine we had Neil Lennon or Hecky as our manager. Could be a lot worse.

[neil7908]

Having been very critical of Ross last week and advocating his removal, the response to last night's defeat surprises me.

Taken in isolation last night's defeat wouldn't have caused me to light the blue touch paper as it was extremely predictable whether the manager's name was Stubbs, Lennon, Hecky or Ross and would be equally predictable going back further than that and likely further forward than Ross.

If we compete for the same players as they do and they get them every time they go for them and we don't then it is pretty likely they will beat us. That cant be placed at any managers door, but firmly at that of the board.

The difference in their squad and consequently their managers options and ours is like night and day.

I don't like watching Ross's Hibs, but if we are getting results then substance over style will have to do. When we stop getting those consistently (and last week's defeat can now be consigned to the history books) then we have a problem. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

I continue to have massive concerns over the construction of the squad, I just don't see a Plan B within it and I suppose by extension his use of substitutes, but we are where we are and short of a relegation scrap which I just don't see, we wont be changing manager soon.

When buying inferior players there is a greater risk that form will drop, form is temporary, class (or the lack thereof) is permanent and I expect we will see some very up and down performances and loss of form such as we are seeing with Doidge, Boyle & Newell now as if there wasn't then frankly they wouldn't be at Hibs.

I think this is where the small squad option falls down and Ross is and will continue to be hampered by the lack of viable options to change things with the squad he has.

There will be absolutely no cash to change that in the winter window unless Ron opens the cheque book further, which he may if 4th comes into question, as I fear it might with a resurgent Motherwell.

Right now I would reluctantly accept a fairly dull season, culminating in 4th place that will likely cause me to stop even using my Hibspass login before much longer as I don't enjoy watching Ross's Hibs huff and puff in the hope that they will eventually blow the house down.

I don't watch much football on TV at the best of times and the current no fans and no atmosphere fare just doesn't do it for me at all.

I think there is a real danger here of disengagement amongst Hibs fans. That of course applies to all clubs right now with Covid and possibly Brexit affecting finances, not being able to get to the games for months etc.

I think we are really vulnerable though. I haven't enjoyed watching too many Hibs games under Ross but that was OK when we're grinding out results. Problem is when we start losing games.

After the semi final and last night I'm struggling to get myself motivated to watch this Hibs team. I've felt like that before but the allure of live games always brought me back.

Right now I don't see us with any chance in the cups against the OF or Aberdeen. And I'm not so convinced we'd beat Hearts again, despite it being close.

Ross is probably unfairly carrying the can for long standing frustration in the Hibs support but I'm afraid that's the nature of football. 4th would obviously be an achievement for club and manager but if its after a season of toiling against the better teams in the league, beating the poorer teams by the odd goal and getting put out of the cups as soon as we face a decent team then it's going to feel like a very long season. And our European adventure will be very short lived if we can't beat the likes of Aberdeen or Hearts.

[Keith_M]

Prepared to give Jack Ross time? Oh My God, some people are beyond help.

[Hibby Bairn]

This thread 😂.

A reminder that JR has been with the club less than 12 months including a period of almost 6 months where no football was allowed.

12 months ago we had just beaten St Johnstone 4-1 away from home after being pumped 5-2 by Celtic at Hampden. The St J win took us out of the relegation play off place to a total of 12 points from 36.

Doing a very good job. Imo.

[neil7908]

This thread 😂.

A reminder that JR has been with the club less than 12 months including a period of almost 6 months where no football was allowed.

12 months ago we had just beaten St Johnstone 4-1 away from home after being pumped 5-2 by Celtic at Hampden. The St J win took us out of the relegation play off place to a total of 12 points from 36.

Doing a very good job. Imo.

I'm not sure the bar for success for a manager should be just better than Paul Heckingbottom.

[Keith_M]

This thread 😂.

A reminder that JR has been with the club less than 12 months including a period of almost 6 months where no football was allowed.

12 months ago we had just beaten St Johnstone 4-1 away from home after being pumped 5-2 by Celtic at Hampden. The St J win took us out of the relegation play off place to a total of 12 points from 36.

Doing a very good job. Imo.


Yeah but let's just sack the manager and replace him with one of the many managers we've had in the past that had us performing so much better.

[neil7908]

Yeah but let's just sack the manager and replace him with one of the many managers we've had in the past that had us performing so much better.

Can you point me to any concerted, serious push from posters wanting him gone, not just posting stuff in the heat of the moment?

The only posts I see talking him about getting the sack are ones like this. You'd be better just backing your man rather than making up campaigns that don't exist.

[J-C]

Yeah but let's just sack the manager and replace him with one of the many managers we've had in the past that had us performing so much better.

I dont think people are asking for him to be sacked, he's had 2-3 bad results and although gained a few points the performances were rather poor. After an initial boost last season we did well where we finished but after his 1st window we've not kicked on performance wise, picked up some good points but rather dull to watch, at this moment the jury is still out.

[#2 Double Tap]

I would sack ross, then I would sack dempster and all her merry men. :cb

[Cod Boy]

The standard of this league is not very good this season due to teams having to cut cloth

[Keith_M]

Can you point me to any concerted, serious push from posters wanting him gone, not just posting stuff in the heat of the moment?

The only posts I see talking him about getting the sack are ones like this. You'd be better just backing your man rather than making up campaigns that don't exist.


Good question



Get him to ****


I said in March if Jack Ross lost the derby and the semi-final he could go. He's probably lucky this game hasn't been played until now.

Nowhere near good enough tonight. Again in a big game. Jury well and truly still out for me.


Jack Ross should be sacked after tonight. ...


Sorry but I am another one who thinks Ross can GTF and can't go quick enough
...
get hime to **** and now.


Agree 100% and I would have sacked Ross, or asked for his resignation, after the last shocker of a derby at ER. Managers who cannot win derbies are of no use to us, yes he won his first one at tiny but that really looks like a ****** one of now.

He sent a team team out tonight that was not properly prepared for the game in hand and is a failure.


I'll admit I posted something about wanting him out on the match day thread ...


I always said the ‘jury was still out’ but I fear it is getting very close to a decision it is just a question of whether it is unanimous or majority? :greengrin


I called the 'Jack ross must go' chat after the semi ridiculous. And genuinely felt that. But after tonight I'm not so sure.
...

[Since452]

Prepared to give Jack Ross time? Oh My God, some people are beyond help.

Mental. It was only last week folk were panicking about Lennon being punted by Celtic and them coming for Ross. Two games later and folk want him out...

[easty]

I'm not sure the bar for success for a manager should be just better than Paul Heckingbottom.

No, but it’s a basis on which to build a successful team. Which he’s on his way to doing,

[easty]

Mental. It was only last week folk were panicking about Lennon being punted by Celtic and them coming for Ross. Two games later and folk want him out...

Mad isn’t it.

Also, a short time ago we worried about losing Boyle but now he’s tatties.

Folk spoke recently on here about maybe not being able to keep Newall beyond the end of the season, now he’s useless...

Porteous was in the recent Scotland squad, but now some would say he’s not good enough for us and needs dropped.

[Since452]

https://twitter.com/bbcsportscot/status/1324852035481731073?s=21

I’ve criticised him on this thread but I like this post match interview from him.

That's a brilliant interview from him to be fair. Glad he isn't sugar coating anything.

[Onion]

Really like Jack Ross and think he's a good fit for Hibs. Until last weekend, his stock was high and had we beaten Hearts no one would be questioning his position. He does need to look at his approach to big games. His record against Aberdeen, Hearts, Rangers and Celtic is really poor considering the squad / money he has available to him. If he fails to address that, it will not end well for him.

[Ozyhibby]

Really like Jack Ross and think he's a good fit for Hibs. Until last weekend, his stock was high and had we beaten Hearts no one would be questioning his position. He does need to look at his approach to big games. His record against Aberdeen, Hearts, Rangers and Celtic is really poor considering the squad / money he has available to him. If he fails to address that, it will not end well for him.

Our midfield is dreadful and until he addressed that he will fail against good sides.


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[MWHIBBIES]

Our midfield is dreadful and until he addressed that he will fail against good sides.


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It isn't dreadful. Dreadful are midfields who finish bottom. Our midfield is good, not great, and isn't helped by the managers chosen system in big games. No dreadful midfield has this many points already.

Gogic was one you wanted all summer. Now hes dreadful?

[Ozyhibby]

It isn't dreadful. Dreadful are midfields who finish bottom. Our midfield is good, not great, and isn't helped by the managers chosen system in big games. No dreadful midfield has this many points already.

Gogic was one you wanted all summer. Now hes dreadful?

Gogic I like. His partner and our system of only playing two in there, I don’t.


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[MWHIBBIES]

Gogic I like. His partner and our system of only playing two in there, I don’t.


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Joe Newall you mean. Anything but dreadful. Not good in a 2 vs big teams but few are, its a dead formation at any decent level. John McGinn had some poor games in a 442 as well here. Signing Stephen McGinn and keeping the likes of Mallan and Hallberg is the issue, not Joe Newall.

[Tambo]

It's a strange one because I've said before the football on show under ross is very uninspiring for a fan to watch, far to many sideways and backwards passes but some how we have grinded out league games and got points.

Again it's a case of the right balance which I think has been an issue for a while and again not signing another first team known striker was very dangerous. The opposition knows which front two will be up top every game and there is no way of changing that now.

I thought Mallan tried to play some football when he came on and think we should go with 3-5-2 next game with mallan in a 3 man midfield with gray rwb.

[matty_f]

We would make a huge mistake changing the manager now, out any time soon imho.

I genuinely think that given time, Ross will be outstanding for Hibs. We’re nowhere near the finished article at the moment but who was expecting us to be?

In spite of that, we sit at the top end of the table. We’ve had some good performances and we’ve had some poor ones, but i guarantee that the very same people who are claiming we are in a false position in the league would be saying that the table doesn’t lie if we hadn’t ground out results that we have this season.

We are where we are on merit. Honestly, some amount of dummy-spitting hysteria on this forum at the moment.

[Lago]

The standard of this league is not very good this season due to teams having to cut cloth
The standard has been poor for years, long before cloth needed cutting.

[Ozyhibby]

We would make a huge mistake changing the manager now, out any time soon imho.

I genuinely think that given time, Ross will be outstanding for Hibs. We’re nowhere near the finished article at the moment but who was expecting us to be?

In spite of that, we sit at the top end of the table. We’ve had some good performances and we’ve had some poor ones, but i guarantee that the very same people who are claiming we are in a false position in the league would be saying that the table doesn’t lie if we hadn’t ground out results that we have this season.

We are where we are on merit. Honestly, some amount of dummy-spitting hysteria on this forum at the moment.

I agree, we should stick with Ross. He clearly knew what we needed when he tried to sign McCrorie. I’m sure he will get it right soon but until we get the right players in he needs to stop playing two in the middle.
Still not sure about Magennis but I’m sure Wright is a waste of a wage. He’s contributing nothing. And to get rid of Horgan for Murphy was a very bad decision.
We have a lot of passengers in our squad just now.
Ross also has to improve the work rate of our squad. They were outworked all night last night.


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[matty_f]

I agree, we should stick with Ross. He clearly knew what we needed when he tried to sign McCrorie. I’m sure he will get it right soon but until we get the right players in he needs to stop playing two in the middle.
Still not sure about Magennis but I’m sure Wright is a waste of a wage. He’s contributing nothing. And to get rid of Horgan for Murphy was a very bad decision.
We have a lot of passengers in our squad just now.
Ross also has to improve the work rate of our squad. They were outworked all night last night.


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I don’t think the Horgan/Murphy move was necessarily down to Jack wanting to change those players.

Horgan got a great offer which he wanted to take, it suited Hibs as we needed to cut out cloth due to COVID.

Magennis will shine for us, he’s missed a fair bit of football with his injury and i think we need to set out expectations accordingly, but I’ll be astonished if we don’t make a sizeable profit on him.

[neil7908]

Good question

Think you need to read my original post again. Here is what I asked for "Can you point me to any concerted, serious push from posters wanting him gone, not just posting stuff in the heat of the moment?"

What you've given me is fans reacting angrily in the heat of the moment to Hibs conceding or losing a game against rivals.

I count one post from the list you quoted where I genuinely believe they want the manager gone. The rest are just questioning him or angry at a result. Saying Jack Ross can GTF after losing a derby is NOT the same as wanting him sacked.

There are 0 threads on this site focused on the manager going. No polls set up asking if it's time. At that point then you can seriously question why folk want him gone. Right now you just seem not happy at football fans having an opinion other than yours.

[Pretty Boy]

I think with Ross we may have our very own version of McInnes. He'll bulld a team that is consistent against the teams we should be beating whilst toiling against the likes of Celtic and Rangers.

McInnes has built a side that are consistently there or thereabouts when it comes to best of the rest. However against Celtic his overall record is 6 wins and 33 defeats from 41 games and against Rangers it's 6 wins and 17 defeats from 28. The early indications is Ross may be on a similar path. We are definitely grinding out results in games we may once have drawn or lost, we have shown flashes of quality and we have struggled against some of the bigger teams, particularly Celtic and Rangers and, this season at least, Aberdeen.

If that has us challenging for 3rd or 4th every year and leads to a few cups runs then I don't think there are any grounds to really question the manager. However, again like McInnes, there will always be that undercurrent of discontent. Rightly or wrongly bad results against Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen always carry more weight than good ones against Ross County and Hamilton. In a week in which we have just lost to our city rivals in a semi final and surrendered tamely to our main rival for 3rd in the league I'm surprised so many are shocked there has been a bit of criticism aimed at the manager. The calls for his sacking appear to be an absolutely tiny minority but, much like bad results against rivals, seem to carry far more weight than the general mumping, moaning and more measured responses which falls ways short of that.

Personally I'm still a bit undecided with Ross. My gut instinct is he'll be here for 3 or 4 seasons, we'll be consistent if unspectacular and in 10 years there will be heated debates about whether he was really any good or not.

[Jones28]

Think you need to read my original post again. Here is what I asked for "Can you point me to any concerted, serious push from posters wanting him gone, not just posting stuff in the heat of the moment?"

What you've given me is fans reacting angrily in the heat of the moment to Hibs conceding or losing a game against rivals.

I count one post from the list you quoted where I genuinely believe they want the manager gone. The rest are just questioning him or angry at a result. Saying Jack Ross can GTF after losing a derby is NOT the same as wanting him sacked.

There are 0 threads on this site focused on the manager going. No polls set up asking if it's time. At that point then you can seriously question why folk want him gone. Right now you just seem not happy at football fans having an opinion other than yours.

I’d be curious to see how many of those posters have changed their mind since posting what they did? Apart from 1 post that I would judge to be a heat of the moment style post the rest seem serious to me.

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t think the Horgan/Murphy move was necessarily down to Jack wanting to change those players.

Horgan got a great offer which he wanted to take, it suited Hibs as we needed to cut out cloth due to COVID.

Magennis will shine for us, he’s missed a fair bit of football with his injury and i think we need to set out expectations accordingly, but I’ll be astonished if we don’t make a sizeable profit on him.

I hope Magennis does shine for us but many a manager has been sacked while waiting for a player to come good. That’s a general observation and not a criticism of Magennis.


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[one day maybe...]

Suppose it’s easy to pick holes from a spectator/supporter point of view. Who knows how much of what Hibs worked on all week went out the window in 15 mins.. 2-0 down probably wasn’t part of that game plan.. my only gripe is that with the players we have at our disposal our midfield has to be 3 central with two wide or we play a diamond 4 with 3 rotating/moving with freedom.
I like Gogic but he’s is a holding/spoiling midfield player.He is not a footballing midfielder.. The two in front/beside him should be the ones that drive the team forward.. They should be our engine room. Players like Christie & Jack do that for their teams.. I’ve not seen enough of Mageniss to know if he can do that for us, hopefully he can... I also hope Jack Ross has it in his locker to show a tough side to his management style and looks to get this squad understanding what it actually means to pull that strip on.. #GGTTH

[jeffers]

I think with Ross we may have our very own version of McInnes. He'll bulld a team that is consistent against the teams we should be beating whilst toiling against the likes of Celtic and Rangers.

McInnes has built a side that are consistently there or thereabouts when it comes to best of the rest. However against Celtic his overall record is 6 wins and 33 defeats from 41 games and against Rangers it's 6 wins and 17 defeats from 28. The early indications is Ross may be on a similar path. We are definitely grinding out results in games we may once have drawn or lost, we have shown flashes of quality and we have struggled against some of the bigger teams, particularly Celtic and Rangers and, this season at least, Aberdeen.

If that has us challenging for 3rd or 4th every year and leads to a few cups runs then I don't think there are any grounds to really question the manager. However, again like McInnes, there will always be that undercurrent of discontent. Rightly or wrongly bad results against Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen always carry more weight than good ones against Ross County and Hamilton. In a week in which we have just lost to our city rivals in a semi final and surrendered tamely to our main rival for 3rd in the league I'm surprised so many are shocked there has been a bit of criticism aimed at the manager. The calls for his sacking appear to be an absolutely tiny minority but, much like bad results against rivals, seem to carry far more weight than the general mumping, moaning and more measured responses which falls ways short of that.

Personally I'm still a bit undecided with Ross. My gut instinct is he'll be here for 3 or 4 seasons, we'll be consistent if unspectacular and in 10 years there will be heated debates about whether he was really any good or not.

Good post, can’t argue with any of that. I like Ross and am certainly not calling for his head. There is definitely an element of only being able to piss with the cock you’ve got, but it worries me that he thought a midfield two of Gogic and Newell would compete against Aberdeen’s midfield and in (I think) his first game against the Huns a midfield containing Allan and Mallan would work against them. What bothers me more than anything though is the football we play under him, I’ve said this a few times now but I don’t particularly enjoy watching his sides. It remains to be seen when we finally get fans back into the ground if crowds will attend in big numbers to watch his brand of football.

[neil7908]

I’d be curious to see how many of those posters have changed their mind since posting what they did? Apart from 1 post that I would judge to be a heat of the moment style post the rest seem serious to me.

Serious in him wanting sacked, or serious in beginning to lose faith in him? I would say quite a lot are showing that they are concerned but only 1 is a longer, well laid out post that is really pushing for him to be gone.

I'm one of the ones quoted as I admit when Hearts went 2-1 I put something negative up about him going. I absolutely don't want him sacked though. I was angry.

But some seem more fussed about picking out the odd angry Hibs fans reaction rather than the manager or players.

I would put up a poll asking if anyone wants him gone to prove my point, as it will likely get 98% in favour of him staying. But that will just further feed this made up narrative that there is some huge vendetta against him.

[Alfred E Newman]

It is ludicrous to suggest we should be changing managers yet again. It is just a reaction to more disappointing results in crunch games and the feeling that a lot of the old frailties still exist, despite the changes to the team.

[Bobby's Cinema]

It is ludicrous to suggest we should be changing managers yet again. It is just a reaction to more disappointing results in crunch games and the feeling that a lot of the old frailties still exist, despite the changes to the team.
Agreed. A few weeks ago it was our best start in the league for 50 years. Now suddenly the managers a dud?

We are doing very well i the league, and have show a consistency in winning games that we should.
I have faith that we will regroup and get back to winning ways next time out. Maybe the cup will prove a welcome distraction to freshen things up a bit.

Like everything else at the moment - Stick with it folks :aok:

[mcfly]

It’s not great football to watch, we dont win the big games.

Fans have backed the club in unbelievable numbers knowing we can’t watch the club live.

However you have to worry that season ticket sales will reduce drastically next year if we continue to bottle it against Aberdeen and hearts.

Worrying times

[calumhibee1]

Jack Ross in games v Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen

P12
W2
D1
L9

F11
A23

That is pitiful when one of they sides got relegated.

Not having a great record against the OF is fair enough. Aberdeen edging it against us is fair enough. But our record against Hearts and Aberdeen is abysmal.

[calumhibee1]

It’s not great football to watch, we dont win the big games.

Fans have backed the club in unbelievable numbers knowing we can’t watch the club live.

However you have to worry that season ticket sales will reduce drastically next year if we continue to bottle it against Aberdeen and hearts.

Worrying times

The football is brutal. It’s lead to a decent points haul so I can live with it but it’s not enjoyable at all watching this Hibs side.

[J-C]

The football is brutal. It’s lead to a decent points haul so I can live with it but it’s not enjoyable at all watching this Hibs side.

I agree re football on show, I switched off half way into the 2nd half to watch Countdown from earlier that day, that's how bored I was.

[allmodcons]

Jack Ross in games v Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen

P12
W2
D1
L9

F11
A23

That's not good, but I'll wager it's about average over the last 10 - 20 years for any Manager of Hibs.

Like most clubs in the SPL, we rarely beat the ugly sisters and our record against Aberdeen is woeful.

The stats might be better for some when Rangers were recovering from liquidation but, that apart, I'd be surprised if any other Manager in the last 20 years has a great record against these 4 clubs?

[The 90+2]

That's not good, but I'll wager it's about average over the last 10 - 20 years for any Manager of Hibs.

Like most clubs in the SPL, we rarely beat the ugly sisters and our record against Aberdeen is woeful.

The stats might be better for some when Rangers were recovering from liquidation but, that apart, I'd be surprised if any other Manager in the last 20 years has a great record against these 4 clubs?

Under Mowbray we played the above teams a total of 35 times, won half as much as we lost and drew five times.

Even winning half as much is still a lot better then two wins from 9.

That was also with a much better old firm side and a hearts team that finished second in the Premier, not bottom of the same league.

[Unseen work]

Under Mowbray we played the above teams a total of 35 times, won half as much as we lost and drew five times.

Even winning half as much is still a lot better then two wins from 9.

That was also with a much better old firm side and a hearts team that finished second in the Premier, not bottom of the same league.

But our team was also a far far higher standard than it is now. Aberdeen are also a lot stronger now than they were under the Mowbray era.

Motherwell also had a good squad at that time.

[The 90+2]

But our team was also a far far higher standard than it is now. Aberdeen are also a lot stronger now than they were under the Mowbray era.

Motherwell also had a good squad at that time.

There’s lots of arguments for and against I suppose Mowbray came in and top over a bottom six side like Jack Ross and had us third on goal difference the end of his first season. Second season we beat the strongest hearts side there’s been in 35 years 50% as much as them, also won 3-0 at Ibrox that same season as well as 3-1 at Parkhead the season before. I was replying to the suggestion no other Hibs manager done better or got us up for big games, well Celtic Rangers and Hearts where stronger than us, Aberdeen the same level perhaps us a bit better but we still went into every single game against them thinking we could get something. Now it’s just taken as a given we will lose and when we do fire out the excuses.

The difference is Mowbray and his team had a different mentality. And remember Scott Brown broke his leg in the middle of all that and Thommo came back from his cruciate.

[allmodcons]

Under Mowbray we played the above teams a total of 35 times, won half as much as we lost and drew five times.

Even winning half as much is still a lot better then two wins from 9.

That was also with a much better old firm side and a hearts team that finished second in the Premier, not bottom of the same league.

Mowbray's team was exceptional, so not surprised to learn his record is better.

I win percentage of 28% with an exceptional side that was sold for serious money. I would wager that his is the best record of any Hibs Manager in the last 40 years versus these 4 clubs.

For what it's worth, his best finish in the league was 4th.

[B.H.F.C]

Mowbray's team was exceptional, so not surprised to learn his record is better.

I win percentage of 28% with an exceptional side that was sold for serious money. I would wager that his is the best record of any Hibs Manager in the last 40 years versus these 4 clubs.

For what it's worth, his best finish in the league was 4th.

Finished 3rd in his first season. 4th in his second.

Some of the football was also unbelievable to watch.

League was also a much higher standard than now.

[The Harp Awakes]

I think with Ross we may have our very own version of McInnes. He'll bulld a team that is consistent against the teams we should be beating whilst toiling against the likes of Celtic and Rangers.

McInnes has built a side that are consistently there or thereabouts when it comes to best of the rest. However against Celtic his overall record is 6 wins and 33 defeats from 41 games and against Rangers it's 6 wins and 17 defeats from 28. The early indications is Ross may be on a similar path. We are definitely grinding out results in games we may once have drawn or lost, we have shown flashes of quality and we have struggled against some of the bigger teams, particularly Celtic and Rangers and, this season at least, Aberdeen.

If that has us challenging for 3rd or 4th every year and leads to a few cups runs then I don't think there are any grounds to really question the manager. However, again like McInnes, there will always be that undercurrent of discontent. Rightly or wrongly bad results against Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen always carry more weight than good ones against Ross County and Hamilton. In a week in which we have just lost to our city rivals in a semi final and surrendered tamely to our main rival for 3rd in the league I'm surprised so many are shocked there has been a bit of criticism aimed at the manager. The calls for his sacking appear to be an absolutely tiny minority but, much like bad results against rivals, seem to carry far more weight than the general mumping, moaning and more measured responses which falls ways short of that.

Personally I'm still a bit undecided with Ross. My gut instinct is he'll be here for 3 or 4 seasons, we'll be consistent if unspectacular and in 10 years there will be heated debates about whether he was really any good or not.

Good post and pretty much feel the same about Ross. It was good to see him angry last night after the game, as he's been emotionless since joining Hibs.

There shoild have been a reaction from the players last night, to the Semi Final defeat. but instead they lacked belief and confidence. Needs nipped in the bud quickly.

[The 90+2]

Mowbray's team was exceptional, so not surprised to learn his record is better.

I win percentage of 28% with an exceptional side that was sold for serious money. I would wager that his is the best record of any Hibs Manager in the last 40 years versus these 4 clubs.

For what it's worth, his best finish in the league was 4th.

You said 20 years there would be nobody to match. I gave you a much better percentage of winning big games.

He finished third also.

You’re probably correct about the 40 years against the clubs also but McLeish had the better of Hearts and hardly lost a derby so maybe not. His record in Glasgow was shocking though.

[allmodcons]

That's not good, but I'll wager it's about average over the last 10 - 20 years for any Manager of Hibs.

Like most clubs in the SPL, we rarely beat the ugly sisters and our record against Aberdeen is woeful.

The stats might be better for some when Rangers were recovering from liquidation but, that apart, I'd be surprised if any other Manager in the last 20 years has a great record against these 4 clubs?


You said 20 years there would be nobody to match. I gave you a much better percentage of winning big games.

He finished third also.

You’re probably correct about the 40 years against the clubs also but McLeish had the better of Hearts and hardly lost a derby so maybe not. His record in Glasgow was shocking though.

You should read posts properly before replying 90+2. I am not looking to pick a fight here.

I said I thought Ross's record was about average for a Hibs Manager. I never anywhere said his record was the best, in fact, I said "that's not good".

The final paragraph in my post was clearly a question where I said I'd be surprised if any Manager had a great record against these 4 clubs.

You pointed out that Mowbray had a better record than Ross (thank you for that) but I wouldn't say a win ratio of 28% qualifies as a great record.

[The 90+2]

You should read posts properly before replying 90+2. I am not looking to pick a fight here.

I said I thought Ross's record was about average for a Hibs Manager. I never anywhere said his record was the best, in fact, I said "that's not good".

The final paragraph in my post was clearly a question where I said I'd be surprised if any Manager had a great record against these 4 clubs.

You pointed out that Mowbray had a better record than Ross (thank you for that) but I wouldn't say a win ratio of 28% qualifies as a great record.

You said “any Hibs manager” Mowbray popped in my head from around 15 years go so I looked it up. I get your point though. Mowbray wiped the floor with anything JR has shown yet or more concerning the confidence I’ve got of him improving it.

[allmodcons]

Finished 3rd in his first season. 4th in his second.

Some of the football was also unbelievable to watch.

League was also a much higher standard than now.

You'll not see me disagree with that comment.

[James Stephen]

Under Mowbray we played the above teams a total of 35 times, won half as much as we lost and drew five times.

Even winning half as much is still a lot better then two wins from 9.

That was also with a much better old firm side and a hearts team that finished second in the Premier, not bottom of the same league.

It was also a much, much better Hibs side though.

[B.H.F.C]

It was also a much, much better Hibs side though.

It was. But the overall standard was much, much better.

[Snedz]

It has to be thoroughly infuriating for Jack Ross seeing individual errors gifting early goals. He set up an attacking formation which was certainly brave and could have caused Aberdeen real problems on the counter attack especially. However, after the loss of the early goals the counter attack was nullified due to Aberdeen being able to themselves sit in and counter attack instead of us. Those early individual mistakes cost us dearly. Can't blame Jack Ross for that. Once Aberdeen were ahead by two very few teams would be able to break them down at Pittodrie. I'm sure Jack Ross would have been ruing these early errors that put paid to his tactics.. That's fitba though.

[B.H.F.C]

It has to be thoroughly infuriating for Jack Ross seeing individual errors gifting early goals. He set up an attacking formation which was certainly brave and could have caused Aberdeen real problems on the counter attack especially. However, after the loss of the early goals the counter attack was nullified due to Aberdeen being able to themselves sit in and counter attack instead of us. Those early individual mistakes cost us dearly. Can't blame Jack Ross for that. Once Aberdeen were ahead by two very few teams would be able to break them down at Pittodrie. I'm sure Jack Ross would have been ruing these early errors that put paid to his tactics.. That's fitba though.

But his game plan never changed. Same set up for the entirety of the game. He never tried to change it, subs were just like for like.

He can’t do anything about the mistakes, obviously. But I don’t see what they did to his tactics given they stayed the same.

[Snedz]

But his game plan never changed. Same set up for the entirety of the game. He never tried to change it, subs were just like for like.

He can’t do anything about the mistakes, obviously. But I don’t see what they did to his tactics given they stayed the same.

He had already put out an attacking line up which he obviously hoped would be able to counter attack as the dons searched for an opener. The gifts had the unfortunate result of reversing tactics for both sides. As he already had an attack minded side out it left little scope for any meaningful change of tactics after Aberdeen were able to sit in and defend, which they are really good at as we saw.

[B.H.F.C]

He had already put out an attacking line up which he obviously hoped would be able to counter attack as the dons searched for an opener. The gifts had the unfortunate result of reversing tactics for both sides. As he already had an attack minded side out it left little scope for any meaningful change of tactics after Aberdeen were able to sit in and defend, which they are really good at as we saw.

Wasn’t that attacking a line up. They never had a shot on goal until injury time.

You’ve surely got to try and do something differently at some point?

[The 90+2]

He had already put out an attacking line up which he obviously hoped would be able to counter attack as the dons searched for an opener. The gifts had the unfortunate result of reversing tactics for both sides. As he already had an attack minded side out it left little scope for any meaningful change of tactics after Aberdeen were able to sit in and defend, which they are really good at as we saw.


Aberdeen have a history of sitting in when taking the lead ( I don't even think they done that much yesterday and cut us open from time to time).

Surely the manager and the team work on a plan, just in case, like 90% of the times we play Aberdeen, the score and look to hold on to a lead? :greengrin

[Snedz]

Aberdeen have a history of sitting in when taking the lead ( I don't even think they done that much yesterday and cut us open from time to time).

Surely the manager and the team work on a plan, just in case, like 90% of the times we play Aberdeen, the score and look to hold on to a lead? :greengrin

Aye ok Sherlock. How come your'e not a manager instead of Jack Ross.

He set up to counter attack which could have caused Aberdeen a lot of grief which was scuttled by the individual errors. We couldn't break down a backs to the wall dons side after they shut up shop to defend their lead. It happens. Onto the next game.

[The 90+2]

Aye ok Sherlock. How come your'e not a manager instead of Jack Ross.

He set up to counter attack which could have caused Aberdeen a lot of grief which was scuttled by the individual errors. We couldn't break down a backs to the wall dons side after they shut up shop to defend their lead. It happens. Onto the next game.

So he set up to counter and had no plan B, and instead of questioning that just move on to the next game? No bother.

[B.H.F.C]

Aye ok Sherlock. How come your'e not a manager instead of Jack Ross.

He set up to counter attack which could have caused Aberdeen a lot of grief which was scuttled by the individual errors. We couldn't break down a backs to the wall dons side after they shut up shop to defend their lead. It happens. Onto the next game.

I don’t think he set up to counter attack. If you were setting up to do that you’d have a more robust midfield on the park. Not a flat four consisting of the players we had on the park.

[The 90+2]

I don’t think he set up to counter attack. If you were setting up to do that you’d have a more robust midfield on the park. Not a flat four consisting of the players we had on the park.

He set up to smash balls up top, win a couple of flicks and snatch a goal or two imo.

[J-C]

He had already put out an attacking line up which he obviously hoped would be able to counter attack as the dons searched for an opener. The gifts had the unfortunate result of reversing tactics for both sides. As he already had an attack minded side out it left little scope for any meaningful change of tactics after Aberdeen were able to sit in and defend, which they are really good at as we saw.


He went 442 and stuck with 442 throughout the whole game, yes attacking players were on but the shape of the team didn't change, we needed an extra man in the middle and at least try something else.

[Snedz]

I don’t think he set up to counter attack. If you were setting up to do that you’d have a more robust midfield on the park. Not a flat four consisting of the players we had on the park.

We obviously have a different opinion on the game plan. No worries. The gifts had a massive impact on the game no matter. It allowed the dons to sit in and defend which they're good at and we couldn't break them down. Onto the next game.

[B.H.F.C]

He set up to smash balls up top, win a couple of flicks and snatch a goal or two imo.

I’m not sure if he set up to do that, or if the way he set up just leads to that happening. It was basically 15 passes, nowhere to go, lump it towards Doidge, lose it. Then repeat.

[Lancs Harp]

We what dont deal with against Aberdeen is their high press. Our back three or four have struggled with going right back to the cup semi final, where we went two down early on due to their press and us coughing the ball up. At least that day we changed things around by bringing Grant Holt on and basically by passing their press.

[Since452]

Everton have lost three in a row after a brilliant start. I wonder if Ancelotti is getting similar treatment on Evertons fans forum

[MWHIBBIES]

Everton have lost three in a row after a brilliant start. I wonder if Ancelotti is getting similar treatment on Evertons fans forum

Ancelotti has more trophies as a manager than Everton do. Its not the same thing.

[neil7908]

Ancelotti has more trophies as a manager than Everton do. Its not the same thing.

Everton also drew with Liverpool couple of weeks ago. I'm sure that will have helped morale amongst the fans.

[Northernhibee]

Everton also drew with Liverpool couple of weeks ago. I'm sure that will have helped morale amongst the fans.

We drew with a Rangers side who hadn’t even conceded a goal at that point recently.

Maybe the Everton support aren’t full of entitled whiners who think the world is full of doom and gloom after two bad results.

[B.H.F.C]

We drew with a Rangers side who hadn’t even conceded a goal at that point recently.

Maybe the Everton support aren’t full of entitled whiners who think the world is full of doom and gloom after two bad results.

Entitled? Really? Because many of us think Hibs could, and should, do a wee bit better?

Whatever way anybody wants to dress up the Hearts result it was disastrous and was always going to provoke a really negative reaction. I don’t think the fans of ANY club would react any differently if the lost a semi final (which they should have won comfortably) to their biggest rival who happen to be a league below. To then follow it up with such an insipid performance a week later wasn’t exactly going to cheer folk up.

[The 90+2]

Hibs supports are the least self entitled set of fans there is 🤣🤣

[Northernhibee]

Entitled? Really? Because many of us think Hibs could, and should, do a wee bit better?

Whatever way anybody wants to dress up the Hearts result it was disastrous and was always going to provoke a really negative reaction. I don’t think the fans of ANY club would react any differently if the lost a semi final (which they should have won comfortably) to their biggest rival who happen to be a league below. To then follow it up with such an insipid performance a week later wasn’t exactly going to cheer folk up.
Could do better? We’re in the race for third even if the last result wasn’t ideal. Do you think we should be challenging for the title or something?

So yes, I stand by every word of that.

[B.H.F.C]

Could do better? We’re in the race for third even if the last result wasn’t ideal. Do you think we should be challenging for the title or something?

So yes, I stand by every word of that.

You were talking specifically about two games. I think we could have done significantly better in both of them.

Talk of entitled fans is pish. Nobody expects Hibs to win every game.

[Northernhibee]

You were talking specifically about two games. I think we could have done significantly better in both of them.

Talk of entitled fans is pish. Nobody expects Hibs to win every game.

And yet here we are after two bad results - both with contentious penalty decisions against us - and the world is doom and gloom and the football is back to being uninspiring and the like.

We won’t win every game, you’re quite right but the constant misery and negativity every time we don’t beat a team comfortably is tiring.

[The 90+2]

And yet here we are after two bad results - both with contentious penalty decisions against us - and the world is doom and gloom and the football is back to being uninspiring and the like.

We won’t win every game, you’re quite right but the constant misery and negativity every time we don’t beat a team comfortably is tiring.


There's a massive, massive difference between losing to our lower league city rivals in the Scottish Cup Semi final in extra time when they have played two league games and a powder puff, game over after 14 mins loss to our league rivals 6 days later than "constant misery and negativity every time we don't win comfortably"

The last week was massive for our club as far as the season goes and we lost both. It doesn't help matters adding in wee bits to make supporters upset sound unreasonable imo.

[B.H.F.C]

And yet here we are after two bad results - both with contentious penalty decisions against us - and the world is doom and gloom and the football is back to being uninspiring and the like.

We won’t win every game, you’re quite right but the constant misery and negativity every time we don’t beat a team comfortably is tiring.

You’re ignoring the importance of the Hearts game. It’s not just your average, run of the mill game. It was always going to lead to ill feeling if it went wrong.

[Northernhibee]

You’re ignoring the importance of the Hearts game. It’s not just your average, run of the mill game. It was always going to lead to ill feeling if it went wrong.

TBH I woke up in a howlingly bad mood this morning and maybe "entitled" is a strong word - went to make a coffee and get a chocolate brownie and that will sort out any bad mood, even temporarily. In many ways, yeah, point taken.

However there is something that is beginning to boil my piss a wee bit. IMO this year the manager has been very good and is taking us in the right direction as a club - a smaller group of players who are flexible enough to play in numerous positions, has us up challenging for third and the players he has brought in are the sort of players I like.

Similarly the club has IMO been excellent too - good communication despite difficult challenges and backing the manager in uncertain times by paying fees for players.

I still view the criticism of Jack Ross these last two weeks is OTT. We get the penalty in second half injury time and there's no need for extra time if we score it. Similarly two individual errors undid our game plan and played right into the hands of a stuffy team like Aberdeen. Sometimes you can't plan for that and if those change then we're in third and in a cup final. Small margins.

Things like the club giving away "match bags" has led to the whole "entitled" thing a little bit though. Generosity from the club at a time of financial uncertainty and social media is awash with people complaining and saying how season ticket numbers will be interesting next season because they've not gotten a free bag of wine gums and a cup of bovril. Positivity from the club being met by waves of negativity has been irritating.

So yep - my grump this morning probably got in the way of a more reasoned post, but there are things that irk me just now.

[Unseen work]

I actually agree with the self entitled comment.

The standards of what the majority of fans expect year on year compared to what is achieved is streets apart. The demand also changes based on how well we’re doing.

We expect to be third/4th overall I’d say yet when a manager is doing that it changes too ah but he lost to Rangers and Hearts.

How many times have we finished 3rd, 4th or higher in the last 30 years?

We also seem to forgot other teams expect to be doing the same like Aberdeen, Motherwell, Hearts and Dundee United. All of whom have probably finished 3rd/4th more times than us over the past 30 years.


3/4 place finishes in 30 years

Hibs - 6
Aberdeen - 16
Hearts - 12
Motherwell - 8
Dundee Utd - 8

Let the above just sink in for a second.

We get rid of managers like nothing else and go through a ridiculous amount. Aberdeen’s key has been consistency under Mccinnes and they’re reaping the rewards.

Ross is doing a very good job with the squad he’s got and will only get better.

[B.H.F.C]

TBH I woke up in a howlingly bad mood this morning and maybe "entitled" is a strong word - went to make a coffee and get a chocolate brownie and that will sort out any bad mood, even temporarily. In many ways, yeah, point taken.

However there is something that is beginning to boil my piss a wee bit. IMO this year the manager has been very good and is taking us in the right direction as a club - a smaller group of players who are flexible enough to play in numerous positions, has us up challenging for third and the players he has brought in are the sort of players I like.

Similarly the club has IMO been excellent too - good communication despite difficult challenges and backing the manager in uncertain times by paying fees for players.

I still view the criticism of Jack Ross these last two weeks is OTT. We get the penalty in second half injury time and there's no need for extra time if we score it. Similarly two individual errors undid our game plan and played right into the hands of a stuffy team like Aberdeen. Sometimes you can't plan for that and if those change then we're in third and in a cup final. Small margins.

Things like the club giving away "match bags" has led to the whole "entitled" thing a little bit though. Generosity from the club at a time of financial uncertainty and social media is awash with people complaining and saying how season ticket numbers will be interesting next season because they've not gotten a free bag of wine gums and a cup of bovril. Positivity from the club being met by waves of negativity has been irritating.

So yep - my grump this morning probably got in the way of a more reasoned post, but there are things that irk me just now.

Fair enough.

Re the criticism, I think it was merited over the two games in question. We cost ourselves the win at Hampden. Nobody else to blame for me, the game should have been done by half time. I I thought we were terrible on Friday. What annoyed me most is that it was entirely predictable.

I don’t think Ross should be having his position questioned. I think we’ll be a comfortable fourth this season but, at the same time, I’m not sure we’ll push Aberdeen too hard for third. Still, fourth would be progress and see us punching our weight. I think we have some good players who we need to be getting more out of and that’s what Ross needs to do to start winning against the better sides.

[neil7908]

We drew with a Rangers side who hadn’t even conceded a goal at that point recently.

Maybe the Everton support aren’t full of entitled whiners who think the world is full of doom and gloom after two bad results.

Are you Boris Johnson's speech writer?

[calumhibee1]

I actually agree with the self entitled comment.

The standards of what the majority of fans expect year on year compared to what is achieved is streets apart. The demand also changes based on how well we’re doing.

We expect to be third/4th overall I’d say yet when a manager is doing that it changes too ah but he lost to Rangers and Hearts.

How many times have we finished 3rd, 4th or higher in the last 30 years?

We also seem to forgot other teams expect to be doing the same like Aberdeen, Motherwell, Hearts and Dundee United. All of whom have probably finished 3rd/4th more times than us over the past 30 years.


3/4 place finishes in 30 years

Hibs - 6
Aberdeen - 16
Hearts - 12
Motherwell - 8
Dundee Utd - 8

Let the above just sink in for a second.

We get rid of managers like nothing else and go through a ridiculous amount. Aberdeen’s key has been consistency under Mccinnes and they’re reaping the rewards.

Ross is doing a very good job with the squad he’s got and will only get better.

Your post if anything disproves the point you’re trying to make imo (unless I’ve got the total wrong end of the stick)

As you’ve pointed out, in 30 years Motherwell and DU have finished 3rd/4th significantly more times than us, both of which have much smaller budgets than us. Hearts and Aberdeen are absolutely miles ahead of us.

Just because we don’t usually finish top 4 it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be. If anything it points to the fact that we’ve significantly underperformed for the vast majority of a 30 year period.

I’m personally glad that the fans still expect us to be where we should be and haven’t just accepted our under performance as being where we should be. There’s nothing self entitled about that imo. Just because we’ve historically underperformed it doesn’t make Hibs fans entitled for expecting us to punch our weight more than we do. I’d accept the comment if folk were wanting top 3 every single season or even splitting the OF, but not for expecting us to be where we should be more often.

[calumhibee1]

Fair enough.

Re the criticism, I think it was merited over the two games in question. We cost ourselves the win at Hampden. Nobody else to blame for me, the game should have been done by half time. I I thought we were terrible on Friday. What annoyed me most is that it was entirely predictable.

I don’t think Ross should be having his position questioned. I think we’ll be a comfortable fourth this season but, at the same time, I’m not sure we’ll push Aberdeen too hard for third. Still, fourth would be progress and see us punching our weight. I think we have some good players who we need to be getting more out of and that’s what Ross needs to do to start winning against the better sides.

I honestly can’t see us finishing a comfortable fourth. We may get there eventually but with our lack of options I’d be very surprised if we finish 4th by any sort of distance even though we should be.

[The 90+2]

Your post if anything disproves the point you’re trying to make imo (unless I’ve got the total wrong end of the stick)

As you’ve pointed out, in 30 years Motherwell and DU have finished 3rd/4th significantly more times than us, both of which have much smaller budgets than us. Hearts and Aberdeen are absolutely miles ahead of us.

Just because we don’t usually finish top 4 it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be. If anything it points to the fact that we’ve significantly underperformed for the vast majority of a 30 year period.

I’m personally glad that the fans still expect us to be where we should be and haven’t just accepted our under performance as being where we should be. There’s nothing self entitled about that imo. Just because we’ve historically underperformed it doesn’t make Hibs fans entitled for expecting us to punch our weight more than we do. I’d accept the comment if folk were wanting top 3 every single season or even splitting the OF, but not for expecting us to be where we should be more often.

:top marks

[The 90+2]

Kane - again.

[Unseen work]

Your post if anything disproves the point you’re trying to make imo (unless I’ve got the total wrong end of the stick)

As you’ve pointed out, in 30 years Motherwell and DU have finished 3rd/4th significantly more times than us, both of which have much smaller budgets than us. Hearts and Aberdeen are absolutely miles ahead of us.

Just because we don’t usually finish top 4 it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be. If anything it points to the fact that we’ve significantly underperformed for the vast majority of a 30 year period.

I’m personally glad that the fans still expect us to be where we should be and haven’t just accepted our under performance as being where we should be. There’s nothing self entitled about that imo. Just because we’ve historically underperformed it doesn’t make Hibs fans entitled for expecting us to punch our weight more than we do. I’d accept the comment if folk were wanting top 3 every single season or even splitting the OF, but not for expecting us to be where we should be more often.

Im not sure you can say a club have underperformed for a duration as long as 30 years? Maybe more that’s now just the standard they’re at.

Plenty big clubs in Scotland or England that find themselves in lower divisions get criticised for living in their past glory.

My point is that despite where we all expect us to have finished over the last 30 years we’ve only achieved that 6 times. Currently Motherwell and Dundee United operate on a much lower budget than us, I’m unsure what the budgets were like 5+ years ago and how they’ve changed. As we know though spending more money doesn’t mean a better player.

But, now Jack Ross is doing what most people seem to say we should be achieving a lot are still unhappy and it’s changing to being 4th should be the minimum we achieve and we also need to beat teams higher in the league than us.

I want all those things too, but we need to be realistic. Finishing in the top 4 this season would be a good achievement and someone for us to build on, when was the last time we had back to back 3/4th place seasons?

Consistency is key and getting rid of managers isn’t going to get us where we should be.

Ross will continue to strengthen the squad and the more times we finish 3/4th the more we get Europe, better players etc.

How he does it or who he beats to get there doesn’t bother me too much.

[J-C]

And yet here we are after two bad results - both with contentious penalty decisions against us - and the world is doom and gloom and the football is back to being uninspiring and the like.

We won’t win every game, you’re quite right but the constant misery and negativity every time we don’t beat a team comfortably is tiring.


2 bad results yes, we had 22 shots at goal with 8 on target in those games and scored 1 measly goal. The penalty against Hearts was soft but still a penalty as McGinn got wrong side, against Aberdeen it was 2 glaring mistakes and the most inept performance so far this season, even Ross came out afterwards sounding none too pleased.

We won't win every game but the minimum I do expect is the players to put in a shift and at least fight for the victory, after the semi I was expecting a reaction from the team and I think so did Ross, which may explain why he looked so unhappy. Aberdeen are our main rivals for 3rd place and we bottled it, they walked all over us at ER and totally controlled the game on friday, our small squad now showing us that we lack quality from the bench.

Ross has to take a lot of the blame, he insists on playing 442 which generally works ok against smaller teams but we get overrun in the middle against the better sides, instead of trying to change it on friday, all his subs were like for like? Surely when it's not working you try something else, even a change of shape at least.

There's only misery and negativity because we've seen it all before, we get a wee lift from a few decent results and performances and it always ends with a bump and reality sets in. We haven't actually played that great this season apart from a couple of games, we've ground out wins and draws and the football hasn't been that pretty to watch, as someone said that's ok when you win but not when you start losing games.

We've made little improvements but not enough, we're still 3-4 players short but Covid has put paid to that, hence the small squad, we need to keep the majority of fit so we can play the strongest team, a couple of injuries and we'll struggle due to lack of depth.

[B.H.F.C]

I honestly can’t see us finishing a comfortable fourth. We may get there eventually but with our lack of options I’d be very surprised if we finish 4th by any sort of distance even though we should be.

How many options do the teams below us have? I don’t think we’ll drop from fourth at all this season. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t move at all between now and the end of the season.

[Phil MaGlass]

Could do better? We’re in the race for third even if the last result wasn’t ideal. Do you think we should be challenging for the title or something?

So yes, I stand by every word of that.

Have to disagree, at the moment it looks like were in the race for third, but, no, were not really 3rd place material, Dons are. Time after time were shown up by them, we cant even beat hertz ffs
4th is best we can hope for imho

[Scotty Leither]

Your post if anything disproves the point you’re trying to make imo (unless I’ve got the total wrong end of the stick)

As you’ve pointed out, in 30 years Motherwell and DU have finished 3rd/4th significantly more times than us, both of which have much smaller budgets than us. Hearts and Aberdeen are absolutely miles ahead of us.

Just because we don’t usually finish top 4 it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be. If anything it points to the fact that we’ve significantly underperformed for the vast majority of a 30 year period.

I’m personally glad that the fans still expect us to be where we should be and haven’t just accepted our under performance as being where we should be. There’s nothing self entitled about that imo. Just because we’ve historically underperformed it doesn’t make Hibs fans entitled for expecting us to punch our weight more than we do. I’d accept the comment if folk were wanting top 3 every single season or even splitting the OF, but not for expecting us to be where we should be more often.

:top marks

For Hibs not to have mounted at least ONE concerted, season-long challenge for the national title of the league that we play in for at least 45 plus years is a sad indictment on successive boards and owners since the mid-70s.

Tom Hart paid out a then record fee between a Scottish and English club for the signing of Joe Harper from Everton in 1974. We all know how that signing turned out, but the intent was clear - make Hibs the top team in the country. Hart also had a healthy, publically expressed disdain for the Old Firm and their fans.

Post-Turnbull (whose time as a manager was up after we lost the 79 Cup Final) the club went into a decline pockmarked by a relegation brought about by selling what any decent player we had, and replacing them with mostly dross, (a criticism that was justly levelled at Petrie's stewardship).

Accordingly that's the biggest beef I had with the Petrie/Farmer era...aye we were "saved" by Tom Farmer, but the effect of that was that the expectation level was driven down to the extent that a "Top 6 finish" is viewed by a number of the Hibs support (if these message boards and other forums are anything to go by) as "success".

This attitude has became the norm at ER and permeates the club and manifests itself in tangible things like our derby record, and as CalumHibee says above, just because we don't normally finish in the top 4 doesn't mean that shouldn't still be our aim every year.

It also leads us to a public perception of Hibs in the wider media that 5th/6th best is good enough, and I believe leads us to appointing managers who think they're doing us a favour in taking the gig - Calderwood for one, and Heckingbottom as another, who seemed to be comfortable with tame surrenders at home to Celtic in the cup for example.

I'd just like our new owner to up the ante somewhat, and charge whatever manager is in situ to deliver European football every year, with anything less than that classed as "failure", as I'm kind of done with "exponential growth" and "incremental progress" or whatever other vacuous soundbite we've been fed down the years as well.

[calumhibee1]

Im not sure you can say a club have underperformed for a duration as long as 30 years? Maybe more that’s now just the standard they’re at.

Plenty big clubs in Scotland or England that find themselves in lower divisions get criticised for living in their past glory.

My point is that despite where we all expect us to have finished over the last 30 years we’ve only achieved that 6 times. Currently Motherwell and Dundee United operate on a much lower budget than us, I’m unsure what the budgets were like 5+ years ago and how they’ve changed. As we know though spending more money doesn’t mean a better player.

But, now Jack Ross is doing what most people seem to say we should be achieving a lot are still unhappy and it’s changing to being 4th should be the minimum we achieve and we also need to beat teams higher in the league than us.

I want all those things too, but we need to be realistic. Finishing in the top 4 this season would be a good achievement and someone for us to build on, when was the last time we had back to back 3/4th place seasons?

Consistency is key and getting rid of managers isn’t going to get us where we should be.

Ross will continue to strengthen the squad and the more times we finish 3/4th the more we get Europe, better players etc.

How he does it or who he beats to get there doesn’t bother me too much.

The difference is that the big clubs down south like Leeds for example have saw their budgets dwindle in line with their demise. Ours has never dwindled. We’ve always had one of the top 5 budgets in the top league in that 30 year period I’d imagine and as such we should be finishing in positions that reflect that far more often than we do. To have had a bigger budget than at least 7 of the teams in a 12 team league every season yet only have 6 seasons where you finish above them all in a 30 year period is woeful.

I would point out btw that this isn’t about JR, I want him to stay.

[Baldy Foghorn]

:top marks

For Hibs not to have mounted at least ONE concerted, season-long challenge for the national title of the league that we play in for at least 45 plus years is a sad indictment on successive boards and owners since the mid-70s.

Tom Hart paid out a then record fee between a Scottish and English club for the signing of Joe Harper from Everton in 1974. We all know how that signing turned out, but the intent was clear - make Hibs the top team in the country. Hart also had a healthy, publically expressed disdain for the Old Firm and their fans.

Post-Turnbull (whose time as a manager was up after we lost the 79 Cup Final) the club went into a decline pockmarked by a relegation brought about by selling what any decent player we had, and replacing them with mostly dross, (a criticism that was justly levelled at Petrie's stewardship).

Accordingly that's the biggest beef I had with the Petrie/Farmer era...aye we were "saved" by Tom Farmer, but the effect of that was that the expectation level was driven down to the extent that a "Top 6 finish" is viewed by a number of the Hibs support (if these message boards and other forums are anything to go by) as "success".

This attitude has became the norm at ER and permeates the club and manifests itself in tangible things like our derby record, and as CalumHibee says above, just because we don't normally finish in the top 4 doesn't mean that shouldn't still be our aim every year.

It also leads us to a public perception of Hibs in the wider media that 5th/6th best is good enough, and I believe leads us to appointing managers who think they're doing us a favour in taking the gig - Calderwood for one, and Heckingbottom as another, who seemed to be comfortable with tame surrenders at home to Celtic in the cup for example.

I'd just like our new owner to up the ante somewhat, and charge whatever manager is in situ to deliver European football every year, with anything less than that classed as "failure", as I'm kind of done with "exponential growth" and "incremental progress" or whatever other vacuous soundbite we've been fed down the years as well.
:top marks:top marks

We damn well should be a big Club in Scotland. It is testament to the constant bad choices our custodians have made. They saw the fanbase after we won the cup. Did they tap into it? I'm not so sure. We should be better than an occasional 4th placed finish

[matty_f]

:top marks:top marks

We damn well should be a big Club in Scotland. It is testament to the constant bad choices our custodians have made. They saw the fanbase after we won the cup. Did they tap into it? I'm not so sure. We should be better than an occasional 4th placed finish

I think the current owner has made it clear that his intention is to be “the best club in Scotland” (that’s a quote from him). He’s set out a plan to achieve it and it’ll not be quick but he sees a way forward.

We absolutely should be looking at 4th or better regularly, i don’t think that’s in any way unrealistic for a club our size.


I would also ask for evidence to support the idea that fans on this forum would cite top 6 as a success. There might be some who would see it as the minimum expectation but i would be amazed if a post can be found that highlights top 6 as being a successful season.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I think the current owner has made it clear that his intention is to be “the best club in Scotland” (that’s a quote from him). He’s set out a plan to achieve it and it’ll not be quick but he sees a way forward.

We absolutely should be looking at 4th or better regularly, i don’t think that’s in any way unrealistic for a club our size.


I would also ask for evidence to support the idea that fans on this forum would cite top 6 as a success. There might be some who would see it as the minimum expectation but i would be amazed if a post can be found that highlights top 6 as being a successful season.

Did he say best club in Scotland or best of the rest, I can't remember?

[Scotty Leither]

Did he say best club in Scotland or best of the rest, I can't remember?

A "challenge to Celtic for the league", S.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/4438202/ron-gordon-hibs-celtic-title-ambition-challenge/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ron-gordon-hibs-vow-new-17372934

[Baldy Foghorn]

A "challenge to Celtic for the league", S.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/4438202/ron-gordon-hibs-celtic-title-ambition-challenge/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ron-gordon-hibs-vow-new-17372934

Cheers:aok::aok:

[Bobby's Cinema]

The manager that has us clear 4th place in the league.
A quick look back through Hibernian managers through the year, has the best win % of anyone going back 50 years.

When people say the club and manager are accepting poor or lesser standards, what evidence is there of this?

For me it's all about are we improving, do we look like there is more mileage in the manager and his ideas. An undoubted yes from me.

Our transfer policy and the way we have gone about business since RG came in has been much improved and a distinct change IMO.

Business done early, putting down reasonable cash for this level and signings players with experience of scottish football and proven at this level.

Give it time!!!!!

[ahibby]

The manager that has us clear 4th place in the league.
A quick look back through Hibernian managers through the year, has the best win % of anyone going back 50 years.

When people say the club and manager are accepting poor or lesser standards, what evidence is there of this?

For me it's all about are we improving, do we look like there is more mileage in the manager and his ideas. An undoubted yes from me.

Our transfer policy and the way we have gone about business since RG came in has been much improved and a distinct change IMO.

Business done early, putting down reasonable cash for this level and signings players with experience of scottish football and proven at this level.

Give it time!!!!!

Bit least because Magennis n McGinn in midfield have not hit the ground running. Could argue the best if Murohy is also still to come so time maybe key true enough.

[allmodcons]

The manager that has us clear 4th place in the league.
A quick look back through Hibernian managers through the year, has the best win % of anyone going back 50 years.

When people say the club and manager are accepting poor or lesser standards, what evidence is there of this?

For me it's all about are we improving, do we look like there is more mileage in the manager and his ideas. An undoubted yes from me.

Our transfer policy and the way we have gone about business since RG came in has been much improved and a distinct change IMO.

Business done early, putting down reasonable cash for this level and signings players with experience of scottish football and proven at this level.

Give it time!!!!!

Good post BC. Considered and pragmatic, unlike some of the knee jerk reactions that litter these boards.

I see posters complaining on one thread that JR's record against the ugly sisters and Aberdeen is poor and on another thread saying the spend, and strength in depth these clubs have, is mental.

I haven't included Hearts simply because, even with their wonderful mentality as a Club :rolleyes:, they are a Championship side.

[matty_f]

Did he say best club in Scotland or best of the rest, I can't remember?

In the Sky Sports interview with him, he said best in Scotland.

[greenpaper55]

:top marks

For Hibs not to have mounted at least ONE concerted, season-long challenge for the national title of the league that we play in for at least 45 plus years is a sad indictment on successive boards and owners since the mid-70s.

Tom Hart paid out a then record fee between a Scottish and English club for the signing of Joe Harper from Everton in 1974. We all know how that signing turned out, but the intent was clear - make Hibs the top team in the country. Hart also had a healthy, publically expressed disdain for the Old Firm and their fans.

Post-Turnbull (whose time as a manager was up after we lost the 79 Cup Final) the club went into a decline pockmarked by a relegation brought about by selling what any decent player we had, and replacing them with mostly dross, (a criticism that was justly levelled at Petrie's stewardship).

Accordingly that's the biggest beef I had with the Petrie/Farmer era...aye we were "saved" by Tom Farmer, but the effect of that was that the expectation level was driven down to the extent that a "Top 6 finish" is viewed by a number of the Hibs support (if these message boards and other forums are anything to go by) as "success".

This attitude has became the norm at ER and permeates the club and manifests itself in tangible things like our derby record, and as CalumHibee says above, just because we don't normally finish in the top 4 doesn't mean that shouldn't still be our aim every year.

It also leads us to a public perception of Hibs in the wider media that 5th/6th best is good enough, and I believe leads us to appointing managers who think they're doing us a favour in taking the gig - Calderwood for one, and Heckingbottom as another, who seemed to be comfortable with tame surrenders at home to Celtic in the cup for example.

I'd just like our new owner to up the ante somewhat, and charge whatever manager is in situ to deliver European football every year, with anything less than that classed as "failure", as I'm kind of done with "exponential growth" and "incremental progress" or whatever other vacuous soundbite we've been fed down the years as well.

Spot on with all of that, i would just like to add that i can take derby defeats but not the way we played at Aberdeen. Time and time again i have seen Hibs teams just not turning up for games which is unacceptable, i remember Yogi telling of the day when he asked Brian Rice "are they up for it today" ? in a game against Hamilton and Rice said No ! How is this mind set allowed to happen at ER ? it's like the whole ethos of the club is just to be safe in a wee comfort zone where managers and players get to muddle along with no pressure to drive the club forward. Mediocrity is the word that springs to mind about the whole set up from top to bottom"aye that will do"seems to be the motto.

[Jones28]

Serious in him wanting sacked, or serious in beginning to lose faith in him? I would say quite a lot are showing that they are concerned but only 1 is a longer, well laid out post that is really pushing for him to be gone.

I'm one of the ones quoted as I admit when Hearts went 2-1 I put something negative up about him going. I absolutely don't want him sacked though. I was angry.

But some seem more fussed about picking out the odd angry Hibs fans reaction rather than the manager or players.

I would put up a poll asking if anyone wants him gone to prove my point, as it will likely get 98% in favour of him staying. But that will just further feed this made up narrative that there is some huge vendetta against him.

I'd generally agree and hope that most of those quoted were, like yourself, just angry at the time.

I don't agree with the bit in bold, I think the request for people typing out pissed off comments along the lines of "Ross GTF" or similar are perfectly justified in asking for an explanation.

And no, there is no narrative of a made up vendetta, thats just pish.

[Jones28]

Hibs supports are the least self entitled set of fans there is 🤣🤣

There are a lot of words to describe Hibs fans, but entitled is definitely not one of them.

[Keith_M]

Think you need to read my original post again. Here is what I asked for "Can you point me to any concerted, serious push from posters wanting him gone, not just posting stuff in the heat of the moment?"

What you've given me is fans reacting angrily in the heat of the moment to Hibs conceding or losing a game against rivals.

I count one post from the list you quoted where I genuinely believe they want the manager gone. The rest are just questioning him or angry at a result. Saying Jack Ross can GTF after losing a derby is NOT the same as wanting him sacked.

There are 0 threads on this site focused on the manager going. No polls set up asking if it's time. At that point then you can seriously question why folk want him gone. Right now you just seem not happy at football fans having an opinion other than yours.


I picked those out from the first few pages of this thread (I could have kept going and quoted a lot more) and thought that would have been more than enough examples for you to accept what I posted, that some people said they wanted Ross out.

You don't seem to be willing to accept the fact that a lot of people posted comments saying exactly that and are even resorting to interpreting the comments made as if you actually know what was going through their minds at the time (contradicting what they actually wrote)

[Jones28]

:top marks

For Hibs not to have mounted at least ONE concerted, season-long challenge for the national title of the league that we play in for at least 45 plus years is a sad indictment on successive boards and owners since the mid-70s.

Tom Hart paid out a then record fee between a Scottish and English club for the signing of Joe Harper from Everton in 1974. We all know how that signing turned out, but the intent was clear - make Hibs the top team in the country. Hart also had a healthy, publically expressed disdain for the Old Firm and their fans.

Post-Turnbull (whose time as a manager was up after we lost the 79 Cup Final) the club went into a decline pockmarked by a relegation brought about by selling what any decent player we had, and replacing them with mostly dross, (a criticism that was justly levelled at Petrie's stewardship).

Accordingly that's the biggest beef I had with the Petrie/Farmer era...aye we were "saved" by Tom Farmer, but the effect of that was that the expectation level was driven down to the extent that a "Top 6 finish" is viewed by a number of the Hibs support (if these message boards and other forums are anything to go by) as "success".

This attitude has became the norm at ER and permeates the club and manifests itself in tangible things like our derby record, and as CalumHibee says above, just because we don't normally finish in the top 4 doesn't mean that shouldn't still be our aim every year.

It also leads us to a public perception of Hibs in the wider media that 5th/6th best is good enough, and I believe leads us to appointing managers who think they're doing us a favour in taking the gig - Calderwood for one, and Heckingbottom as another, who seemed to be comfortable with tame surrenders at home to Celtic in the cup for example.

I'd just like our new owner to up the ante somewhat, and charge whatever manager is in situ to deliver European football every year, with anything less than that classed as "failure", as I'm kind of done with "exponential growth" and "incremental progress" or whatever other vacuous soundbite we've been fed down the years as well.

Really good post, raises a lot of good points and more importantly puts the ambitions we as fans have for the club into historical context.

Petrie - less so STF - was a controversial figure within the club, but I do think his stewardship was an overall positive one. 1 trophy is a bit disappointing in that time but I think that overall the off the pitch stuff that happened under his watch was a positive thing.

[MWHIBBIES]

I started the thread and I don't want him sacked. I definitely think we can improve in big games but his record against the rubbish is very good. A 4th place finish and clear plans to plug the gaps in the squad is good enough for me this season