Greatest player of all time?

[Spike Mandela]

This BBC article is asking the question is Pele the best player of all time? It compares his achievements against modern day heroes like Messi and Ronaldo and many of the other greats including my favourite Cruyff. Reading this though I am struck by the stats of Puskas, oh my god what a player he must have been.

Who do you think is greatest of all time?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54543144

[Tambo]

Where is George Best?

[MWHIBBIES]

Messi

[Spike Mandela]

Where is George Best?

In the pub:greengrin

[MWHIBBIES]

Where is George Best?

A tier below Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc.

[calumhibee1]

Messi with Cristiano Ronaldo a close-ish second.

[Bishop Hibee]

Pelé. Even his near misses are legendary.

[Since452]

Cristiano Ronaldo

[MWHIBBIES]

Messi with Cristiano Ronaldo a close-ish second.

This is where I'm at. When it comes to those 2 it's very close, but I think both are a good bit ahead of 3rd, all things considered.

[Since452]

If it wasn't for injuries then Brazilian Ronaldo would have been very close to the best ever

[MWHIBBIES]

If it wasn't for injuries then Brazilian Ronaldo would have been very close to the best ever

Agree with this. His record at a young age is unreal.

[BILLYHIBS]

Edson Arantes do Nascimento

[makaveli1875]

since everyones naming forwards il buck the trend with Paolo Maldini

[Juice-Terry]

Maradona - easily.

[ajf]

[QUOTE=maradona ! In an era where there were hatchet men round every corner he produced the goods

[Irish_Steve]

Maradona good, Pelé better, George Best. All you need to know

[StevieT]

Edson Arantes do Nascimento

Agree wholeheartedly Billy. My all time football hero. Let’s not forget that back then players never received the protection they get these days and a full on assault was only a free kick and not even a caution. Look at the treatment he received in his early World Cups compared to nowadays. Some of the current crop are excellent but they are well protected.

[O'Rourke3]

Agree wholeheartedly Billy. My all time football hero. Let’s not forget that back then players never received the protection they get these days and a full on assault was only a free kick and not even a caution. Look at the treatment he received in his early World Cups compared to nowadays. Some of the current crop are excellent but they are well protected.Pele by a mile. Check the treatment he got from Portugal in England in 66. Up there with the worst The Argentinians ever dished out.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Cat Stanton]

Your view is likely to be influenced by your age. I suspect people who say Messi is the best may be slightly younger than those say Maradona - who in turn may be slightly younger than those who say Pelé. Because it's about who you've been most exposed to (er, so to speak) when growing up.

There's a frustrating lack of coverage of when Pelé was at his peak (so I find it hard to judge) whereas in my late teens, I watched mesmerised as Maradona effectively won a World Cup single-handedly. He did something similar with Napoli - taking a thoroughly mediocre team to league championships and European trophies. Messi's obviously an amazing player, but he's also been in teams surrounded by other great players, and having seen both him and Maradona at their peak, I would go for Maradona. If you're younger and haven't seen so much of Maradona, you'd probably go for Messi.

Personally, I wouldn't put Cristiano Ronaldo in the same bracket. But I'm also a bit blinkered as I've always found him such an arrogant arse - but I accept that's quite a different issue and shouldn't cloud my judgement...

(cue new thread: who was the greatest arrogant arse of all time..?)

[Pagan Hibernia]

Your view is likely to be influenced by your age. I suspect people who say Messi is the best may be slightly younger than those say Maradona - who in turn may be slightly younger than those who say Pelé. Because it's about who you've been most exposed to (er, so to speak) when growing up.

There's a frustrating lack of coverage of when Pelé was at his peak (so I find it hard to judge) whereas in my late teens, I watched mesmerised as Maradona effectively won a World Cup single-handedly. He did something similar with Napoli - taking a thoroughly mediocre team to league championships and European trophies. Messi's obviously an amazing player, but he's also been in teams surrounded by other great players, and having seen both him and Maradona at their peak, I would go for Maradona. If you're younger and haven't seen so much of Maradona, you'd probably go for Messi.

Personally, I wouldn't put Cristiano Ronaldo in the same bracket. But I'm also a bit blinkered as I've always found him such an arrogant arse - but I accept that's quite a different issue and shouldn't cloud my judgement...

(cue new thread: who was the greatest arrogant arse of all time..?)

Clough.

[Mick O'Rourke]

PELE
PUSKAS




At Hibernian?
'
Not having seen Gordon Smith in his prime .......

Willie Hamilton

Puskas is supposed to have said (after that great night at ER)that Willie would not have looked out of place in the Real Madrid side

[heretoday]

Eusebio

[Keith_M]

This is a question that it's genuinely impossible to answer.




Nobody here could possibly have watched every player that ever played football, so how can you really say who's the best 'of all time'?
Football has changed drastically over the decades, especially when it come to things like fitness, so it's impossible to give a fair judgment between the extremely fit players of now compared to the ones that relied more on their skill from decades ago.
People tend to choose a player from the era that they enjoyed the most.




But feel free to crack on about Messi and one of the Ronaldos ;-)

[Spike Mandela]

PELE
PUSKAS




At Hibernian?
'
Not having seen Gordon Smith in his prime .......

Willie Hamilton

Puskas is supposed to have said (after that great night at ER)that Willie would not have looked out of place in the Real Madrid side

Love quotes like this:thumbsup:

[Dan Sarf]

Did Pele, Maradona or Ronaldo win the Scottish League with three different clubs? No, they did not.

Game over. :flag:

[Pagan Hibernia]

The greatest ever debates are pointless and tiresome. When you get to that class of player where the word genius can literally be applied then how can you separate them? Do you go for World Cup wins? Not really fair when George Best played for Northern Ireland and Messi has done literally everything but win one. Do you go for pure statistics like goals and assists? Again, how can you compare La Liga in the 2010s with the English first division in the 1960s? It’s a completely different game now.

if you put Maradona in Messi’s Barcelona team could he have done the same things? Could Messi have won the 86 World Cup for Argentina? Could George Best have taken Napoli to the heights they reached in the late 80s? Could pele have got Northern Ireland to a World Cup?

no one will ever know.

[Keith_M]

The greatest ever debates are pointless and tiresome. When you get to that class of player where the word genius can literally be applied then how can you separate them? Do you go for World Cup wins? Not really fair when George Best played for Northern Ireland and Messi has done literally everything but win one. Do you go for pure statistics like goals and assists? Again, how can you compare La Liga in the 2010s with the English first division in the 1960s? It’s a completely different game now.

if you put Maradona in Messi’s Barcelona team could he have done the same things? Could Messi have won the 86 World Cup for Argentina? Could George Best have taken Napoli to the heights they reached in the late 80s? Could pele have got Northern Ireland to a World Cup?

no one will ever know.


:agree:




My grandad used to insist that Barney Battles (played for Boston then Hearts) was the best player ever.

Seeing as the guy retired in 1936.. and none of his games were ever televised... I'd love to see anybody successfully argue that he wasn't :greengrin

[Keith_M]

p.s. It was Maradona!



:greengrin

[Mick O'Rourke]

Best goalie in my younger days was universally agreed as Lev Yashin of the USSR (now liquidated !!)
The man in black


We had a song mentioning Lev back in the old days in The Cave (FF)

Aye aye aye aye

Wilson(Willie) is better than Yashin

McBride is better than Eusebio

And Stevie (Eric Stevenson) is better than anyone !!

[Northernhibee]

Lewis Stevenson.

Has won more Scottish cups and league cups than Pelé, C. Ronaldo, Messi, Best, Ronaldo and Maldini combined.

[BILLYHIBS]

“ Pat Stanton is better than Bobby Moore”

Tommy Docherty

[Spike Mandela]

:agree:




My grandad used to insist that Barney Battles (played for Boston then Hearts) was the best player ever.

Seeing as the guy retired in 1936.. and none of his games were ever televised... I'd love to see anybody successfully argue that he wasn't :greengrin

He wasn’t:devil:

[Hibrandenburg]

Beckenbauer for me. Defenders don't get the same acclaim as attacking midfielders or strikers but he was the engine room of the German team that won the World Cup and European Championships as well as leading Bayern Munich to 3 European Cup titles.

He was as elegant as you can get for a defender but watching that German team switch from defensive to offensive when he was on the ball was like watching 2 different teams in one. He was so sovereign on the ball that when he was given the ball at the back the rest of the team was freed up to take up attacking positions meaning the opposition had 10 attacking players to deal with. His driving runs (jogs back then) would split open defences and once he had the ball he would rarely if ever give it away. Many people made comparisons between our Pat Stanton and Beckenbauer, they were definitely similar types of player but Beckenbauer was at least 1 level above him.

[Andy74]

I never really get the Maradona thing. One of the most talented, yes, but other than one outstanding World Cup and dragging Napoli to their achievements it was pretty limited by way of either return or longevity.

Pele started winning world cups at 17. Imagine a 17 year old now getting a hat trick in the semi final and then another two in the final then going on to win even more world cups.

I don’t think anyone has achieved what Pele did in the world game but it is difficult to judge Messi and Ronaldo agains that because they played with European clubs and club football has probably taken over from international football.

Maradona has to be distant from Pele, Messi and Ronaldo though.

Most talented might be a different discussion.

[Keith_M]

He wasn’t:devil:


Prove it!


:wink:

[MWHIBBIES]

When a player scores double the amount of goals from the same position, there is no comparison IMO. Messi and Ronaldo are ahead of Maradona.

Maradona obviously has Messi on the international tournament wins but that literally came down to 2 strikers being 1v1 with the goalie. 1 scored, 1 missed. Outside of that 1 month of Maradonas career, he isn't on Messis level IMO

[Pagan Hibernia]

I never really get the Maradona thing. One of the most talented, yes, but other than one outstanding World Cup and dragging Napoli to their achievements it was pretty limited by way of either return or longevity.

Pele started winning world cups at 17. Imagine a 17 year old now getting a hat trick in the semi final and then another two in the final then going on to win even more world cups.

I don’t think anyone has achieved what Pele did in the world game but it is difficult to judge Messi and Ronaldo agains that because they played with European clubs and club football has probably taken over from international football.

Maradona has to be distant from Pele, Messi and Ronaldo though.

Most talented might be a different discussion.


again, the maradona/pele World Cup debate is not really a fair one. Pele played with Garrincha, Zico, Jairzinho and others. Burrachaga and Valdano in Maradona’s team, while certainly decent players, were not in the same class. Maradona very nearly dragged Argentina to back to back world cups in 1990. They were a dodgy penalty decision away in the final. And that would have been undoubtedly the worst team ever to win a World Cup

[Mick O'Rourke]

“ Pat Stanton is better than Bobby Moore”


Tommy Docherty

Yes Billy, a compliment indeed

When Jimmy O'Rourke was a laddie Bobby Moore was his fave player.
(Along with Joe Baker !!)

The Doc is supposed to have said that Gordon Smith was not as good as Stanley Mathews and Tommy Lawton !!

A pal of mine in my youth was on trial with one of the Docs teams back in the sixties
(thinking Port Vale)
He stayed in "digs" with other youth players/trialists
Some money went missing in the digs and my pal got the blame
It was later proven it was not him
But it ruined his possible football career as Tommy had believed him as the culprit and sent him home

[Keith_M]

When a player scores double the amount of goals from the same position, there is no comparison IMO. Messi and Ronaldo are ahead of Maradona.

Maradona obviously has Messi on the international tournament wins but that literally came down to 2 strikers being 1v1 with the goalie. 1 scored, 1 missed. Outside of that 1 month of Maradonas career, he isn't on Messis level IMO


If there was an award for twisting, ignoring and selectively choosing facts and statistics, then you've definitely won.

:wink:


Oh and here's a wee quote for you...


"Even if I played for a million years, I'd never come close to Maradona. Not that I'd want to anyway. He's the greatest there's ever been."


—Lionel Messi

[erin go bragh]

Gordon Smith 🇳🇬

[MWHIBBIES]

If there was an award for twisting, ignoring and selectively choosing facts and statistics, then you've definitely won.

:wink:


Oh and here's a wee quote for you...


"Even if I played for a million years, I'd never come close to Maradona. Not that I'd want to anyway. He's the greatest there's ever been."


—Lionel Messi

Have I? I said Maradona wins on international success. It does come down to slim margins, though.

Its not being selective when I say Messi has over twice as many career goals from the same position. He has scored more goals JUST in the league than Maradona did in his career. Thats not a slim margin.

What exactly have I twisted and ignored?

Great quote. Doubt he actually believes it, though.

[Orchard_Hibs]

Maradona, imagine if he played now and didn’t have to contend with defenders trying to break his legs at every tackle, he’d walk it.

[Since452]

On the flip side of Maradona and Pele playing when players kicked lumps out of each other, Messi and Ronaldo have done it in an era of elite super fit athletes with all the sports science etc. Back then most would have probably had a couple fags at half time 😂 Hard to compare the two eras

[Spike Mandela]

Prove it!


:wink:

He played for Hearts.:cb

[danhibees1875]

Lewis Stevenson.

Has won more Scottish cups and league cups than Pelé, C. Ronaldo, Messi, Best, Ronaldo and Maldini combined.

Incredible stat if true.

[Keith_M]

Have I? I said Maradona wins on international success. It does come down to slim margins, though.

Its not being selective when I say Messi has over twice as many career goals from the same position. He has scored more goals JUST in the league than Maradona did in his career. Thats not a slim margin.

What exactly have I twisted and ignored?

Great quote. Doubt he actually believes it, though.


"Maradona obviously has Messi on the international tournament wins but that literally came down to 2 strikers being 1v1 with the goalie. 1 scored, 1 missed."

As downplaying of achievements go, that one really takes the biscuit.


"Outside of that 1 month of Maradonas career, he isn't on Messis level IMO"

One month of his career....Yeah, if you ignore everything else. Like going to Napoli when they had never won a title and almost single-handedly transforming them into League Champions, Cup Winners, two European trophies and twice league runners-up (at a time when Italian football was the best in the world)

188 games for Napoli and 81 goals (from midfield)

91 games for Argentina and 34 goals (from midfield).

A goal against England at the World Cup that was voted 'goal of the century' in 2002.

I'm sure you could find more, if you really tried....

[tonyrougier123]

Cristiano Ronaldo

Without a doubt ☝🏻.

[FilipinoHibs]

This BBC article is asking the question is Pele the best player of all time? It compares his achievements against modern day heroes like Messi and Ronaldo and many of the other greats including my favourite Cruyff. Reading this though I am struck by the stats of Puskas, oh my god what a player he must have been.

Who do you think is greatest of all time?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54543144

Easy it has to be Pele - scored in 4 successive world cups. Took small Santos FC to world club champions beating the best in Europe.

Could play up front or behind strikers - made or scored 53% of Brazil's goals in world cup in 1970.

Blistering pace and strength.

Great dribbler and passer.

Good in the air.

Deadly finisher.

Great free kicks.

Played in era with no protection and more stringent offside rules.

Capable of improvised genius.

[bigwheel]

did anyone see this story at the time? Was on twitter yesterday..amazing

24065

[Crunchie]

This BBC article is asking the question is Pele the best player of all time? It compares his achievements against modern day heroes like Messi and Ronaldo and many of the other greats including my favourite Cruyff. Reading this though I am struck by the stats of Puskas, oh my god what a player he must have been.

Who do you think is greatest of all time?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54543144
If it's players seen in person it has to be Georgie, otherwise Maradona for me.

[Crunchie]

This is a question that it's genuinely impossible to answer.




Nobody here could possibly have watched every player that ever played football, so how can you really say who's the best 'of all time'?
Football has changed drastically over the decades, especially when it come to things like fitness, so it's impossible to give a fair judgment between the extremely fit players of now compared to the ones that relied more on their skill from decades ago.
People tend to choose a player from the era that they enjoyed the most.




But feel free to crack on about Messi and one of the Ronaldos ;-)
I totally agree with you, it's like any sport asking who was the greatest of all time, it's impossible for anyone to give a definitive answer.

[MWHIBBIES]

"Maradona obviously has Messi on the international tournament wins but that literally came down to 2 strikers being 1v1 with the goalie. 1 scored, 1 missed."

As downplaying of achievements go, that one really takes the biscuit.


"Outside of that 1 month of Maradonas career, he isn't on Messis level IMO"

One month of his career....Yeah, if you ignore everything else. Like going to Napoli when they had never won a title and almost single-handedly transforming them into League Champions, Cup Winners, two European trophies and twice league runners-up (at a time when Italian football was the best in the world)

188 games for Napoli and 81 goals (from midfield)

91 games for Argentina and 34 goals (from midfield).

A goal against England at the World Cup that was voted 'goal of the century' in 2002.

I'm sure you could find more, if you really tried....

It does come down to that, though. Both finals vs Germany. Both close games. Maradonas striker scored, Messis missed.

His achievements with napoli were great. Doesn't come close to Messis with Barcelona, though. 4 European cups, 10 league titles, 6 copas, 3 club world cups.

Messi scored more goals in 1 calander year (2012) than Maradona did in his entire time at Napoli.

140 caps, 71 goals (better ratio, more games played, double the goals, more finals) - He has more goals in both friendlies and competitive games than Maradona got in total.

Multiple goals that could be considered the best of all time.

I'm not ignoring everything else. I'm considering it and comparing it to Messi. There is zero comparison. He bodies maradona in everything. Generous to call Maradona a midfielder as well. He was a very attacking player who really did what he wanted, same as Messi.

[Hibs1969]

Pele every time for me.

[Since90+2]

As has been said it's impossible to say.

Football had changed so much and the access to sports scientists, nutritionists and other such things are light years from how it was in previous times. It wasn't that long ago even in the 90s that some high level professional players consumed large amount of alcohol, that would be unheard of these days. I can only imagine what it was like in the 60s,70s and 80s.

Maradona may be the most naturally talented player to have ever played the game but I have my doubts if he'd be able to live the lifestyle required of a modern day world class footballer. The question could also be asked how well Messi would have coped playing against players that would literally kick **** out of talented wingers. Personally I think Pele would have coped better in the modern day than Maradona.

Although he's not a popular choice Cristiano Ronaldo would have to to be in the top 3 somewhere for me.

[HibbyAndy]

Diego Armando Maradona

[Jpdhfc]

since everyones naming forwards il buck the trend with Paolo Maldini

Him and Franco Baresi unbelievable

[Bangkok Hibby]

Agree with those who say it's a pointless argument as you can't compare across the eras. We all have views though. For me it's George Best by a mile. Left footed, right footed, great header of a ball, heavy pitches, heavy balls, fantastic dribbler, could (and did) ride brutal tackles. If he'd played for a top International side there would be no argument. The greatest!

[calumhibee1]

The greatest ever debates are pointless and tiresome. When you get to that class of player where the word genius can literally be applied then how can you separate them? Do you go for World Cup wins? Not really fair when George Best played for Northern Ireland and Messi has done literally everything but win one. Do you go for pure statistics like goals and assists? Again, how can you compare La Liga in the 2010s with the English first division in the 1960s? It’s a completely different game now.

if you put Maradona in Messi’s Barcelona team could he have done the same things? Could Messi have won the 86 World Cup for Argentina? Could George Best have taken Napoli to the heights they reached in the late 80s? Could pele have got Northern Ireland to a World Cup?

no one will ever know.

I think if we’re talking about popping someone like Messi into the 86 World Cup then yes, he’d absolutely have won it. He’d have been playing against guys who were a hell of a lot slower, less powerful and less fit than he does now for starters. Likewise if you stuck an ‘as was’ Pele into football now he’d be poor.

These debates quite often turn into people asking ‘but if pele had all the modern advantages etc’ which is a fair point, but at the end of the day, he didn’t and as such he got to whatever level of ability he got to. Messi and Ronaldo have had them and have got to the level they’ve got to with the help of them. If it’s just purely basing who’s best on the level they got to, rather than the level they could have got to if they had access to different training methods etc then I think it would be very difficult to put forward an arguement for anyone but Messi and Ronaldo - they’re physically miles ahead of any of the older names mentioned.

Controversially, for the same reason, I’d be willing to say that the Hibs team now would probably take not a kick in the arse off double figures off the Famous Five :greengrin

[Frazerbob]

When a player scores double the amount of goals from the same position, there is no comparison IMO. Messi and Ronaldo are ahead of Maradona.

Maradona obviously has Messi on the international tournament wins but that literally came down to 2 strikers being 1v1 with the goalie. 1 scored, 1 missed. Outside of that 1 month of Maradonas career, he isn't on Messis level IMO

Aye but could they do it coked oot their tits?

[Radium]

I think that the problem for Messi is that there is not an iconic moment like the '86 World Cup, '58/'70 World Cups and he will fade into the bastion of great players. Similar for R7.

This is the record of a great player who rarely gets a mention in the GOAT category these days and that is where Messi is heading.

played for Real Madrid for 11 years, winning 8 Spanish championships, 1 Spanish Cup, 2 Latin Cups, 5 consecutive Champions Cups (scoring in all the finals he won), 1 Intercontinental Cup, several individual titles including league top scorer 5 times. He scored 418 goals in 510 games, of which 308 goals in 396 official matches (49 goals in 59 matches in the Champions Cup), becoming the best scorer in the history of the club, until that record was surpassed several decades later

Over time he will also remain synonymous with one of the greatest teams of all time [Barcelona under Guadiola] although replacing Pedro and Villa with Cruyff and Pele might have taken it to another level.

So many greats

[EVENTUALLY]

Gordon Smith 🇳🇬

My dad thought Pele was brilliant, but wait for it...."He couldnae lace Smith's boots".
He also thought Raymond Kopa was a world class player, "He's no in Smith's class but very good"

[660]

Maradona is a god, the rest of the no marks mentioned are merely football players.

[calumhibee1]

I think that the problem for Messi is that there is not an iconic moment like the '86 World Cup, '58/'70 World Cups and he will fade into the bastion of great players. Similar for R7.

This is the record of a great player who rarely gets a mention in the GOAT category these days and that is where Messi is heading.

played for Real Madrid for 11 years, winning 8 Spanish championships, 1 Spanish Cup, 2 Latin Cups, 5 consecutive Champions Cups (scoring in all the finals he won), 1 Intercontinental Cup, several individual titles including league top scorer 5 times. He scored 418 goals in 510 games, of which 308 goals in 396 official matches (49 goals in 59 matches in the Champions Cup), becoming the best scorer in the history of the club, until that record was surpassed several decades later

Over time he will also remain synonymous with one of the greatest teams of all time [Barcelona under Guadiola] although replacing Pedro and Villa with Cruyff and Pele might have taken it to another level.

So many greats




There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career? :confused:

[Killiehibbie]

Maradona is a god, the rest of the no marks mentioned are merely football players.

Could he play in goals?

[660]

There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career? :confused:

No not really

[BILLYHIBS]

“George Best couldnae lace ma bits!”

Ally Macleod

[Dr What If?]

It is difficult, its the old chestnut of who these guys were up against....footballers at the top today are well drilled athletes, Messi's success and longevity at the top makes him an obvious candidate....plays against the best every week and still has the best record, year after year. Pele though, he reinvented the game....he brought a flair that the game simply didn't exist before he broke onto the scene. His Ginga style had been blamed for Brazil's failures on the international scene, it was seen as old fashioned....he gave it new life, did it better than anyone had ever done before and got three world cup winners medals as a reward, one as a 17 year old who blew away the opposition in the final. He was to football as to what Elvis was to music.
Then Maradona....at his prime unplayable, he had his issues though. Just like in 1958 where the world cup was about one player, 1986 was all about him....he was a couple of levels above everybody, no single player since has had a mark on a tournament like he did. That is what is probably unfair on Messi, to win a world cup is a huge ask, to do it on your own is impossible (almost).

So who is the best? Sticking with Pele. Genius, yes....success, yes....all the candidates are, but he was also a trail blazer, no one was playing the game like he did, no one could....everyone who has come since can only dream of making the impact he did....no one is going to have a bigger one.

[Barman Stanton]

Maradona for me. Made average teams great. The usual poster trying to belittle his achievements, like he always does when this question pops up!

In truth no one knows though. No point in putting an opinion over as fact.

I think Van Basten would have been talked about as well had he not played his last game at 28.

[MWHIBBIES]

Maradona for me. Made average teams great. The usual poster trying to belittle his achievements, like he always does when this question pops up!

In truth no one knows though. No point in putting an opinion over as fact.

I think Van Basten would have been talked about as well had he not played his last game at 28.

I haven't belittled his achievements at all. I've posted my opinion on it and I've stayed on topic throughout. You've made 1 post and made a personal jibe at me.

I have compared his achievements to Messi. Maradona wins on international success, no doubt. Anything else, Messi beats him easily. Thats just a fact. Far more goals, far more assists, far more titles.

Maradona was a wonderful player. Probably in the top 10 of all time. I just don't understand how he can be the best when quite a few have had far better careers. I think it is probably to do with the world cup being the main televised games back then and him being great for Argentina. Every time people saw him, he looked amazing.

As you say, its all about opinions. Happy to accept people have their favourites and their own thoughts. That being said, there really isn't much of a sensible argument for Maradona over Messi IMO

[Since452]

Cristiano Ronaldo's header for Juventus was just incredible. Seemed to just float in the air for what seemed like an eternity. He defies logic at times.

[erin go bragh]

Maradona, imagine if he played now and didn’t have to contend with defenders trying to break his legs at every tackle, he’d walk it.

Could say the same about Pelé and Best .

[The Modfather]

Beckenbauer for me. Defenders don't get the same acclaim as attacking midfielders or strikers but he was the engine room of the German team that won the World Cup and European Championships as well as leading Bayern Munich to 3 European Cup titles.

He was as elegant as you can get for a defender but watching that German team switch from defensive to offensive when he was on the ball was like watching 2 different teams in one. He was so sovereign on the ball that when he was given the ball at the back the rest of the team was freed up to take up attacking positions meaning the opposition had 10 attacking players to deal with. His driving runs (jogs back then) would split open defences and once he had the ball he would rarely if ever give it away. Many people made comparisons between our Pat Stanton and Beckenbauer, they were definitely similar types of player but Beckenbauer was at least 1 level above him.

On a similar theme, would someone who revolutionised their position (going by what I’ve read and the little footage of him) like Yashin did in goals be worthy of inclusion in the debate?

[wookie70]

Where is George Best?
George Best would be at the top of my list but that my be my green eye bias. For him not to be in the top 10 is ridiculous. He had it all and managed to have the ball on a string despite playing on ploughed fields with defenders sharpened studs snapping at him on every run. He also headed the ball and was a very good tackler. Add to that he was a superstar out with football far more than Messi or Ronaldo are now. Pele or Maradona would be the only two that would beat Best in my eyes.

[Since90+2]

I haven't belittled his achievements at all. I've posted my opinion on it and I've stayed on topic throughout. You've made 1 post and made a personal jibe at me.

I have compared his achievements to Messi. Maradona wins on international success, no doubt. Anything else, Messi beats him easily. Thats just a fact. Far more goals, far more assists, far more titles.

Maradona was a wonderful player. Probably in the top 10 of all time. I just don't understand how he can be the best when quite a few have had far better careers. I think it is probably to do with the world cup being the main televised games back then and him being great for Argentina. Every time people saw him, he looked amazing.

As you say, its all about opinions. Happy to accept people have their favourites and their own thoughts. That being said, there really isn't much of a sensible argument for Maradona over Messi IMO

You can't simply judge a players ability on statistics though. Going by your logic I fail to see how you can rate Messi higher than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo has won league titles in England, Spain and Italy
Ronaldo has won more Champions Leagues
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy with his country
Ronaldo has scored over 100 international goals

The only thing Messi would trump Ronaldo on is having won more domestic honours (though all in the one country as opposed to 3 different leagues) and a slightly higher goals to game ratio at club level (but Ronaldo's is better at international level).

[Radium]

There’s not an iconic moment in Messi’s career? :confused:

He is part of one of the greatest teams ever and is a great player. I doubt that his achievements will stand out in 30 to 60 years time. By comparison how often is Di Stefano discussed in these terms.

This is a discussion of brilliant players who have influenced their generation but finding ways to separate them is what drives the debate. Football is full of what ifs, where would Cruyff be if the Dutch had won two world cups in the’70s. They didn’t and he misses out on the top tier.

... if Messi had been Spanish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MWHIBBIES]

You can't simply judge a players ability on statistics though. Going by your logic I fail to see how you can rate Messi higher than Ronaldo.

Ronaldo has won league titles in England, Spain and Italy
Ronaldo has won more Champions Leagues
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy with his country
Ronaldo has scored over 100 international goals

The only thing Messi would trump Ronaldo on is having won more domestic honours (though all in the one country as opposed to 3 different leagues) and a slightly higher goals to game ratio at club level (but Ronaldo's is better at international level).

The difference is, things betwen them are very close. Things between Maradona and Messi aren't. Ronaldo doesn't have double Messis goals.

The differences are quite minor, like 1 CL title. Messi could easily be level on those things when they both retire. I only think Messi is ahead on my personal preference. They are the top 2 IMO with very little between them. Both well ahead of Maradona.

[calumhibee1]

He is part of one of the greatest teams ever and is a great player. I doubt that his achievements will stand out in 30 to 60 years time. By comparison how often is Di Stefano discussed in these terms.

This is a discussion of brilliant players who have influenced their generation but finding ways to separate them is what drives the debate. Football is full of what ifs, where would Cruyff be if the Dutch had won two world cups in the’70s. They didn’t and he misses out on the top tier.

... if Messi had been Spanish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think to say there's not been an iconic moment in Messi's career is absolute nonsense but of course it's all about opinions -

His first ever goal for Barca where he chipped the keeper and Ronaldinho carried him around on his back on celebration as if he was passing on the Barcelona batton.. a moment in which Ronaldinho has said that Messi was already the best player at Barcelona, he was only 17.

There's the goal when he put Boateng on his arse after turning him inside out then chipped Neuer

Header against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal from distance against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal in the Spanish cup final where he beat about 5 players

His hatrick against Real Madrid when he would have been about 19/20

His last minute winner against Real when he held his top up at the Bernebau

His chip across goal in off the bar - one of the best goals there's ever been technique wise IMO

His goal when the defender has just about jumped on his back and he still manages to turn 4 players inside out before firing home - not sure who they were playing, white tops, blue shorts

His near enough carbon copy of Maradonas goal against England

His place in a Barca team winning a treble and being the talisman for that team

I'm sure I could go on for much much longer but to say that Messi hasn't had an iconic moment in his career is utterly laughable to me.

[ekhibee]

As far as the Messi/Ronaldo thing goes, for me people overhype Messi because Ronaldo comes across as being arrogant so people like him less than Messi. Messi was and still is a brilliant player though. That's at club level though. At international level I would actually put Ronaldo higher than Messi at international level, for me he's done more for the Portuguese national team than Messi has for Argentina, but that's just my opinion. Pele and Maradonna, in my opinion, are a stage up from both of them. They were both excellent club players, and were both far better at international level than either Messi or Ronaldo. Both players made hugely significant contributions for their respective international teams which led to World Cup success, in Pele's case when he was still a teenager in his first world cup (in Sweden). Other people will probably point out to the brilliant Garrincha in Pele's early days, and the brilliant 1970 Brazil team, but for me Pele and Marradonna were better than anything since. That's purely my opinion though.

[Since90+2]

As far as the Messi/Ronaldo thing goes, for me people overhype Messi because Ronaldo comes across as being arrogant so people like him less than Messi. Messi was and still is a brilliant player though. That's at club level though. At international level I would actually put Ronaldo higher than Messi at international level, for me he's done more for the Portuguese national team than Messi has for Argentina, but that's just my opinion. Pele and Maradonna, in my opinion, are a stage up from both of them. They were both excellent club players, and were both far better at international level than either Messi or Ronaldo. Both players made hugely significant contributions for their respective international teams which led to World Cup success, in Pele's case when he was still a teenager in his first world cup (in Sweden). Other people will probably point out to the brilliant Garrincha in Pele's early days, and the brilliant 1970 Brazil team, but for me Pele and Marradonna were better than anything since. That's purely my opinion though.

The thing is though the top level of club football these days is probably higher quality than international level.

For instance that Bayern Munich team that just won the Champions League I would fancy to beat any international side.

[calumhibee1]

The thing is though the top level of club football these days is probably higher quality than international level.

For instance that Bayern Munich team that just won the Champions League I would fancy to beat any international side.

Bayern Munich would wipe the floor with every international side imo.

I don’t think there’s an international side that would get past the last 8 of the Champions League. Using France as current world champions as a yard stick, I don’t think they’re as good as Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real or Barca.

[Since90+2]

Bayern Munich would wipe the floor with every international side imo.

I don’t think there’s an international side that would get past the last 8 of the Champions League. Using France as current world champions as a yard stick, I don’t think they’re as good as Liverpool, Bayern, Man City, Real or Barca.

Player wise there isn't much in it but in terms of shape, coaching and tactical awareness club sides are miles ahead. That's not a shock though as they spend about 90% of their team coached at a club side compared to a tiny amount at international level.

That's why the whole Maradona/Pele argument done it at international level therefore they are better doesn't stack up. The Champions League as it currently is would be the highest standard of football the game has seen.

[660]

I think to say there's not been an iconic moment in Messi's career is absolute nonsense but of course it's all about opinions -

His first ever goal for Barca where he chipped the keeper and Ronaldinho carried him around on his back on celebration as if he was passing on the Barcelona batton.. a moment in which Ronaldinho has said that Messi was already the best player at Barcelona, he was only 17.

There's the goal when he put Boateng on his arse after turning him inside out then chipped Neuer

Header against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal from distance against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal in the Spanish cup final where he beat about 5 players

His hatrick against Real Madrid when he would have been about 19/20

His last minute winner against Real when he held his top up at the Bernebau

His chip across goal in off the bar - one of the best goals there's ever been technique wise IMO

His goal when the defender has just about jumped on his back and he still manages to turn 4 players inside out before firing home - not sure who they were playing, white tops, blue shorts

His near enough carbon copy of Maradonas goal against England

His place in a Barca team winning a treble and being the talisman for that team

I'm sure I could go on for much much longer but to say that Messi hasn't had an iconic moment in his career is utterly laughable to me.

None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

[MWHIBBIES]

None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

Do you prefer the guy who scores 10 iconic goals a season on the one who scores 30 goals a season?

How iconic something is is totally subjective.

[Pagan Hibernia]

None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

is it not the case though that there are few truly ‘iconic’ moments in the game anymore due to the out and out saturation coverage of football and the digital age where people can instantly see said moments over and over again within seconds of them happening?

in the old days of very little live football and no YouTube it was easier for things to become iconic in my opinion

[Sudds_1]

Pelé. Even his near misses are legendary.

Always renember when he dummied the goalie...i still watch replays hoping it goes in!

[calumhibee1]

None of these are “iconic”. Maybe the goal at the bernabeu but compared to the greatest goal ever and the hand of god it’s not even on the same planet.

A goal against Getafe is included. I mean really?

None of these are iconic goals even though some of them are in cup finals etc yet the goals you’ve mentioned are in a cup quarter final and you’re holding them up as some of the most iconic/best moments in football history..

Every one of the clips listed you’ll see over and over again on the television. The Bayern goal and the one where he holds his strip aloft especially you must see every other week on television. That’s because they were iconic, there’s no other reason to keep showing them.

Also, one goal against Getafe, how many in that list against some of the biggest teams in the word/in cup finals etc?

[Just_Jimmy]

Ronaldo has won stuff in every league he's played in and been a stand out doing so.

his form for Utd 07 was unreal.
he basically won real stuff single handed.
he's delivered for juve when loads said he was finished.

like wise Messi is incredible.

everyone says Pele but they probably saw 1-5% of his career, most of his goals haven't even been confirmed.

modern day players do it under incredible scrutiny and TV analysis and still show up every week.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[calumhibee1]

Ronaldo has won stuff in every league he's played in and been a stand out doing so.

his form for Utd 07 was unreal.
he basically won real stuff single handed.
he's delivered for juve when loads said he was finished.

like wise Messi is incredible.

everyone says Pele but they probably saw 1-5% of his career, most of his goals haven't even been confirmed.

modern day players do it under incredible scrutiny and TV analysis and still show up every week.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Peles record is a nonsense. Heavily inflated by 470 goals in 412 games coming in a regional Brazilian tournament.

His record in the actual Brazilian league is nowhere near as impressive - 100 goals in 173 games. Still good of course and I’m sure he was a great player but his insistence on counting everything short of goals in training makes it very difficult to take his record seriously for me.

[Andy74]

Peles record is a nonsense. Heavily inflated by 470 goals in 412 games coming in a regional Brazilian tournament.

His record in the actual Brazilian league is nowhere near as impressive - 100 goals in 173 games. Still good of course and I’m sure he was a great player but his insistence on counting everything short of goals in training makes it very difficult to take his record seriously for me.

Your alternative stats don’t look that accurate. 173 official games over about 20 years?

He also had 77 international goals in about 90 games.

[660]

None of these are iconic goals even though some of them are in cup finals etc yet the goals you’ve mentioned are in a cup quarter final and you’re holding them up as some of the most iconic/best moments in football history..

Every one of the clips listed you’ll see over and over again on the television. The Bayern goal and the one where he holds his strip aloft especially you must see every other week on television. That’s because they were iconic, there’s no other reason to keep showing them.

Also, one goal against Getafe, how many in that list against some of the biggest teams in the word/in cup finals etc?

I don’t think any of the goals you mentioned are as iconic as maradonas. It’s just a fact given they are still discussed 35 years later.

It’s pretty irrelevant in terms of messi vs maradona though. For me it comes down to the fact maradona was a leader and the ultimate underdog. He triumphed against England with pure bottle and ability. He transformed Naples and stood up for an impoverished part of Italy against the big Italian northern clubs. He did it by being an incredible football player with an inspirational personality.

It’s counter intuitive to reduce the judgement of players down to statistics. You can’t separate the players from their clubs or their environment. You have to judge them in context. Maradona was booted to bits in 1982 World Cup, came back and won it. He was snapped by goikoetxea and returned as the greatest ever.

Even now watching clips of maradona is enchanting. I watch messi and I think “meh”. You see him wilting after Andy Robertson winds him up. You see him sulking around in world cups waiting for something to happen for him. Then you see the ludicrous transfer saga this summer. He just seems like another footballer to be honest.

I doubt Maradona will be surpassed, maybe because he was great at the right time and there is an over saturation of football now that means players like that can’t exist.

[calumhibee1]

I don’t think any of the goals you mentioned are as iconic as maradonas. It’s just a fact given they are still discussed 35 years later.

It’s pretty irrelevant in terms of messi vs maradona though. For me it comes down to the fact maradona was a leader and the ultimate underdog. He triumphed against England with pure bottle and ability. He transformed Naples and stood up for an impoverished part of Italy against the big Italian northern clubs. He did it by being an incredible football player with an inspirational personality.

It’s counter intuitive to reduce the judgement of players down to statistics. You can’t separate the players from their clubs or their environment. You have to judge them in context. Maradona was booted to bits in 1982 World Cup, came back and won it. He was snapped by goikoetxea and returned as the greatest ever.

Even now watching clips of maradona is enchanting. I watch messi and I think “meh”. You see him wilting after Andy Robertson winds him up. You see him sulking around in world cups waiting for something to happen for him. Then you see the ludicrous transfer saga this summer. He just seems like another footballer to be honest.

I doubt Maradona will be surpassed, maybe because he was great at the right time and there is an over saturation of football now that means players like that can’t exist.

Messi’s goals werent scored 35 years ago so I’m not sure the fact Messi’s aren’t been discussed 35 years after the fact (yet) really means anything at all.

If you think Maradona was booted to bits then watch the Classico when the whole Real Madrid team near enough could have been sent off for halving Messi. This myth that players only got kicked back in the day is silly. And they weren’t getting kicked by guys with the power and athleticism of footballers now.

I know it’s all about opinions but the fact you watch Messi and go “meh” is utterly perplexing.

[calumhibee1]

Your alternative stats don’t look that accurate. 173 official games over about 20 years?

He also had 77 international goals in about 90 games.

They are admittedly off Wikipedia but I’d suspect Pele’s Wikipedia is fairly accurate. Amendments to his page wouldn’t last as long as adding 100 goals to Joe Newell’s would :greengrin

[Andy74]

They are admittedly off Wikipedia but I’d suspect Pele’s Wikipedia is fairly accurate. Amendments to his page wouldn’t last as long as adding 100 goals to Joe Newell’s would :greengrin

His Wikipedia shows official Santos games if you discount friendlies and tours as 470 goals in 412 games.

[calumhibee1]

His Wikipedia shows official Santos games if you discount friendlies and tours as 470 goals in 412 games.

That’s in the Campeonato Paulista - a tournament played within Sao Paolo, not the top flight of Brazilian football.

His record in the Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A which is the top of the Brazilian league system is 100 goals in 173 games.

[660]

Messi’s goals werent scored 35 years ago so I’m not sure the fact Messi’s aren’t been discussed 35 years after the fact (yet) really means anything at all.

If you think Maradona was booted to bits then watch the Classico when the whole Real Madrid team near enough could have been sent off for halving Messi. This myth that players only got kicked back in the day is silly. And they weren’t getting kicked by guys with the power and athleticism of footballers now.

I know it’s all about opinions but the fact you watch Messi and go “meh” is utterly perplexing.

Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

[calumhibee1]

Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

It’s a myth that players don’t get kicked now. Whether it was worse or not is another debate, but Messi still gets booted up and down the pitch regularly - the game I mentioned against Real Madrid was a disgrace - and he’s getting booted by bigger, stronger more powerful guys than whoever was lining up for Belgium in the 80s.

Besides, the fact that the level of defending generally consisted of trying to boot someone says a lot about the standard of defending.

[MWHIBBIES]

Haha if you think messi has suffered what Maradona did in 1982. Watch the goikoetxea challenge. Watch Argentina vs Belgium. How much protection does Messi get from referees compared to Maradona. Its not a myth - it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has watched football from both eras.

Felipe Luis and Sergio Ramos have done challenges on Messi as bad as anything Maradona got.

[660]

It’s a myth that players don’t get kicked now. Whether it was worse or not is another debate, but Messi still gets booted up and down the pitch regularly - and he’s getting booted by bigger, stronger more powerful guys than whoever was lining up for Belgium in the 80s.

Besides, the fact that the level of defending generally consisted of trying to boot someone says a lot about the standard of defending.

lol the entire point of this argument is whether Maradona or messi suffered worse challenges. To suggest one of the best Belgian defences in their history was below some imagined standard of today’s football is arrogant revisionist pish.

[660]

Felipe Luis and Sergio Ramos have done challenges on Messi as bad as anything Maradona got.

Link the challenge on messi comparable to goikoetxeas on maradona thanks.

[The 90+2]

Zidane or Maradona.

[MWHIBBIES]

Link the challenge on messi comparable to goikoetxeas on maradona thanks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27mTNyPqsw

Pretty easy mate. They both suffered awful tackles.

[calumhibee1]

lol the entire point of this argument is whether Maradona or messi suffered worse challenges. To suggest one of the best Belgian defences in their history was below some imagined standard of today’s football is arrogant revisionist pish.

Having watched the first 3 minutes of a 9 minute montage of Maradona from the Belgium game in question and not even seeing a foul on him I can’t say I can see where this viciousness comes from.

To suggest that football has somehow been the only sport not to have improved in the last 40 years is the only thing that’s pish in this debate. Defenders nowadays would stroll it against players from the 80s and earlier. They wouldn’t even need to kick them. They’d brush them aside like schoolboys.

[lyonhibs]

It's Diego Maradona in my opinion. Could any of the rest of them done what he did with an early 80's Napoli in that era? Probably not.

[Hibrandenburg]

On a similar theme, would someone who revolutionised their position (going by what I’ve read and the little footage of him) like Yashin did in goals be worthy of inclusion in the debate?

Good point, he was in a decent Soviet team that would never have enjoyed the success they enjoyed if he wasn't between the sticks.

[Juice-Terry]

Have I? I said Maradona wins on international success. It does come down to slim margins, though.

Its not being selective when I say Messi has over twice as many career goals from the same position. He has scored more goals JUST in the league than Maradona did in his career. Thats not a slim margin.

What exactly have I twisted and ignored?

Great quote. Doubt he actually believes it, though.

Seriously, you talk more ***** than anyone else on this board.

[DH1875]

If there was an award for twisting, ignoring and selectively choosing facts and statistics, then you've definitely won.

:wink:


Oh and here's a wee quote for you...


"Even if I played for a million years, I'd never come close to Maradona. Not that I'd want to anyway. He's the greatest there's ever been."


—Lionel Messi

What does Lionel Messi know. His icon growing up was Pablo Aimar and he is his favourite ever player :greengrin Even now when they see/meet each other Messi is like a wee boy, star struck. It's actually an amazing thing to see. Would think it would be other way around and shows Messi is human after all.


Agree with those who say it's a pointless argument as you can't compare across the eras. We all have views though. For me it's George Best by a mile. Left footed, right footed, great header of a ball, heavy pitches, heavy balls, fantastic dribbler, could (and did) ride brutal tackles. If he'd played for a top International side there would be no argument. The greatest!

While I don't think he is the greatest can you imagine if Best played for the great Brazilian teams or great Dutch teams of the past. Amazing.


Zidane or Maradona.

While Zidane was a fantastic player he's not even in the running for me.

[SaulGoodman]

Joe Newell

[MWHIBBIES]

Seriously, you talk more ***** than anyone else on this board.

Oh right, you disagree with me so you just post abuse. Nice.

[Haymaker]

Robin Friday

[Since452]

Joe Newell

[The Spaceman]

Lionel Messi followed very closely by Cristiano Ronaldo. Their stats are absolutely incredible in an era where defenders, teams and clubs as a whole are so, so, so much more finely tuned than those Maradona, Pelé etc faced. Prime Leo Messi is the greatest player ever to grace this earth.

[Hiber-nation]

I'll stick with Pele. There's not as much footage of him obviously but as 12 year olds we were just in awe of him, we'd never seen anything like it.

Messi and Ronaldo scored better goals against better opposition, were fitter, faster and stronger but Pele's still my man. Maradona was unbelievable, yes but that drugged up celebration in USA 94 taints him a wee bit :greengrin

[Lancs Harp]

Lets face it we could argue the merits of Pele v Maradonna v Messi v Ronaldo v Cruff v Beckenbauer etc etc for ever more. I'd simply say fantastic talent. If I had to pick it would probably be Pele but there's an argument for all these great players.

Roy Race should be in there as well.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Having watched the first 3 minutes of a 9 minute montage of Maradona from the Belgium game in question and not even seeing a foul on him I can’t say I can see where this viciousness comes from.

To suggest that football has somehow been the only sport not to have improved in the last 40 years is the only thing that’s pish in this debate. Defenders nowadays would stroll it against players from the 80s and earlier. They wouldn’t even need to kick them. They’d brush them aside like schoolboys.

thats because fitness levels and tactics have improved now. If the great players from the past played today they’d also be as fit as everyone else and as tactically aware too.

the greatest players could play in any era and that’s always been the case. Best, Pele, Maradona and Cruyff would still dominate football, along with Messi and Ronaldo, if they were playing today. Just as Messi and Ronaldo would have in the 1960s and 1970s even if they weren’t as fit as they are today

[calumhibee1]

thats because fitness levels and tactics have improved now. If the great players from the past played today they’d also be as fit as everyone else and as tactically aware too.

the greatest players could play in any era and that’s always been the case. Best, Pele, Maradona and Cruyff would still dominate football, along with Messi and Ronaldo, if they were playing today. Just as Messi and Ronaldo would have in the 1960s and 1970s even if they weren’t as fit as they are today

I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

[Andy74]

I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

I’m beginning to think you’re talking about a different Pele.

[calumhibee1]

I’m beginning to think you’re talking about a different Pele.

Nope, the very same. Much the same as every single athlete from a physically measurable sport would be way out of their depth nowadays, football would be the same. It isn’t immune to it.

Would a 100m athlete from the 50s be able to compete now? Nope.

High jump? Nope

Long distance runner? Nope

Weightlifter? Nope

Swimmer? Nope

Every sport that has measurable statistics for physical ability are streets ahead of where they were in the 50s/60s/70s/80s. Footballers haven’t somehow managed to avoid all of those physical improvements - if anything they’ve probably managed to exploit it more than most sports with the money available in football. I’m sure there was even a stat that Bales top speed in his extra time goal against Barca was faster than Usain Bolts peak in his 9.58.

Guys like Van Dijk, Ramos, Darren McGregor would have the easiest afternoon of their careers against someone with the physical prowess of a 1950s athlete.

Likewise the defenders from these periods wouldn’t be able to implement their fabled kick everything that moves technique against guys like Ronaldo and Messi - they’d never be within touching distance.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I don’t disagree at all with your first statement. But they didn’t have it and as such they weren’t as good as the guys that do.

Saying Pele or Maradona were better because they could have been better had they had more modern training techniques etc is a bit like saying the 100m world record holder from the 50s is actually faster than Usain Bolt based on some weird handicap system.

I disagree massively with your last point though. Pele especially would be woefully out of his depth physically against players now imo. It’s just progress.

but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

[calumhibee1]

but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed. This Messi and Ronaldo do exist having taken advantage of all the advances.

[Andy74]

but you have no evidence to support that. Equally I dont have any evidence to say Pele, Maradona and Best would be as good as Messi and Ronaldo today but I don’t believe that the modern age has produced some sort of super human. Evolution is a thing but not in the space of 40 or 50 years. Pele would still be a magnificent player today, if subjected to the same type of training regime, diet etc

Agree. There have been some advances in nutrition and training but this is being hugely overplayed.

Pele in particular was a physical specimen as well as a great footballer. He would most certainly not be of the standard of a lower league player today.

[Andy74]

You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed.

You might want to look up some stats on Pele on that front.

Reported from the time that he ran 100m in 11 seconds and had fitness levels comparable to top athletes now.

[Keith_M]

So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.


:greengrin

[calumhibee1]

You might want to look up some stats on Pele on that front.

Reported from the time that he ran 100m in 11 seconds and had fitness levels comparable to top athletes now.

Gareth Bale was very close to matching Bolts peak speed in his 9.58 world record when he scored his ET goal against Barca. And that was on grass. That’s the kind of differences we are talking nowadays. That’s a huge difference from 11 seconds.

[Andy74]

Part of an article about a 34 year old Pele:

About Pelé's physical condition and his body, Breil said: “If nature wanted to be generous, it certainly exaggerated with Pelé.”
Pelé and Breil will continue. to work together along with Julio Mazzei, Pelé's friend and adviser who also worki on the Pepsi‐Cola program. The program brings Pelé about $200,000 a year.

Pele can run 100 meters in 11 seconds and jump almost 6 feet high. He jumps earlier than other players to head the ball because he has the ability to hover longer in the air. That split‐second advantage is tremendous in soccer.

“If properly trained, Pele could still be one of the world's 10 best in the decathlon,” said Mazzei. “He can play volleyball and basketball magnificently.”

Pele scores frequently, but the goals he scores are often Overshadowed by the seemingly magical sequencethat precedes them—his uncanny control, his sudden, bursts of acceleration, his instinctive positioning, his inventive passes.

[BILLYHIBS]

So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.


:greengrin

Naw Darling Willie Groves was better 😃

[SuperAllyMcleod]

Gordon Smith, end of discussion. [emoji16]

[BILLYHIBS]

Pelé close thread

[Pagan Hibernia]

You honestly think that footballers from 60 years ago are in similar shape to today’s players? The guys at the top level now are like wardrobes with about 5% body fat and the ability to cover 100m in similar times to sprinters.

I don’t disagree with your last point again, but you’re not comparing Pele to players now. You’re comparing a mythical Pele that has all the modern advances that players have now. That Pele has never existed. This Messi and Ronaldo do exist having taken advantage of all the advances.

no I don’t believe players 60 years ago were in the same shape as today, that’s actually my whole point. I do believe that if players from 60 years ago had the same diet and training and regime as today then they would be in as good shape as today’s players.

[calumhibee1]

Part of an article about a 34 year old Pele:

About Pelé's physical condition and his body, Breil said: “If nature wanted to be generous, it certainly exaggerated with Pelé.”
Pelé and Breil will continue. to work together along with Julio Mazzei, Pelé's friend and adviser who also worki on the Pepsi‐Cola program. The program brings Pelé about $200,000 a year.

Pele can run 100 meters in 11 seconds and jump almost 6 feet high. He jumps earlier than other players to head the ball because he has the ability to hover longer in the air. That split‐second advantage is tremendous in soccer.

“If properly trained, Pele could still be one of the world's 10 best in the decathlon,” said Mazzei. “He can play volleyball and basketball magnificently.”

Pele scores frequently, but the goals he scores are often Overshadowed by the seemingly magical sequencethat precedes them—his uncanny control, his sudden, bursts of acceleration, his instinctive positioning, his inventive passes.

I think that article can be discredited when it’s going to suggest Pele has some sort of super human hovering power. Gravity would have a thing or two to say about that.

[Andy74]

Gareth Bale was very close to matching Bolts peak speed in his 9.58 world record when he scored his ET goal against Barca. And that was on grass. That’s the kind of differences we are talking nowadays. That’s a huge difference from 11 seconds.

Peak speed isn’t the same. What does Bale do 100m in? What does he have on his feet?

In any case you’d have to concede we are now talking margins at peak levels and miles away from what you had in mind about comparing what players 50 years ago were capable of.

[Andy74]

I think that article can be discredited when it’s going to suggest Pele has some sort of super human hovering power. Gravity would have a thing or two to say about that.

He had the ability to hover longer in the air. What’s wrong with saying that? That’s technique and you have to look at the likes of Michael Jordan and Ronaldo to know what is meant by it.

[Since90+2]

Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

[calumhibee1]

Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

It’s not really. Well, it seems it is, but the debate is a ridiculous one. The argument seems to be that the advances seen in every other sport skipped football for no apparent reason even though it’s one of the richest sports in the world with the money to make all the advances.

[Lancs Harp]

Is the only way you can compare footballers or sportsmen from different eras as the way the impacted their own time? Clearly trying to compare someone from one era to another is extremely difficult and highly subjective as conditions, science etc in which they performed are so difficult to quantify.

Always a good debate/discussion/argument. One most of us have had with a few beers in the pub. Ah the good old days.:greengrin

[Andy74]

Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.

On average yes, but it is generally down to diet and training and not a leap in human evolution.

However, that isn’t necessarily true for individuals and it is part of the reason we are talking about Pele being unique and perhaps still one of the greatest ever.

Humans were capable of similar levels of speed, strength and fitness. Pele was studied and tested at the time and he was an extremely fit individual.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Players are physically miles more advanced than they were in the 60s and 70s. I'm surprised that is even up for debate.


it’s not. The debate is whether the players of today would be the same without the physical fitness and dietary improvements of the modern age and whether the players of the past would be the same with them.

[calumhibee1]

Is the only way you can compare footballers or sportsmen from different eras as the way the impacted their own time? Clearly trying to compare someone from one era to another is extremely difficult and highly subjective as conditions, science etc in which they performed are so difficult to quantify.

Always a good debate/discussion/argument. One most of us have had with a few beers in the pub. Ah the good old days.:greengrin

The fairest way would probably be to consider who was the furthest ahead of their peers at the time. Although imo that still doesn’t give you the best ever, as much as the fact that modern athletes have advantages over those of yesteryear is unfair on previous generations it’s just the way it is and can’t just be disregarded imo.

[wookie70]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27mTNyPqsw

Pretty easy mate. They both suffered awful tackles.
Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

[Andy74]

It’s not really. Well, it seems it is, but the debate is a ridiculous one. The argument seems to be that the advances seen in every other sport skipped football for no apparent reason even though it’s one of the richest sports in the world with the money to make all the advances.

You are over playing it though. What’s the difference in say 100m times over 50 yrs. It’s about half a second. That’s with better tracks and trainers too.

Taken into football it is nothing.

You had a higher percentage of players that weren’t fit back then I’d say. You can see that even in the last 20 years but the best and fittest - there’s really nothing in it.

[calumhibee1]

Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

The video from the Belgium game that Maradona played in that was apparently so horrific would suggest otherwise.

[MWHIBBIES]

Not convinced many of those would even be considered bad fouls back in the days of Best and Pele etc. Every week they would have suffered two footed tackles and countless tackles from the rear. Very different eras and the rules now very much favour attacking players

Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

[calumhibee1]

Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

Yup. All these bad challenges but the best players who would have been on the end of them generally didn’t have their careers cut short any more than players do nowadays. And that’s keeping in mind that they didn’t have the medical there is now.

If the tackles were half as bad as described then the best players like Maradona would have been finished before they got started. It seems to be that advancements that have been made in every measurable sport either don’t apply to football or are to be downplayed but the kicking that these guys took is absolutely not being overplayed.. despite the evidence such as Pele playing 800 career games suggesting differently.

[Lancs Harp]

Opponents are just smarter and don't need to maim opponents to stop them.

I'm finding this supposed era of dreadful tackles hard to believe really. Folk going on like there was attempted murder every week. It wasn't that bad.

There was some truth in it tho MW, defenders did get away with a lot more and going back to my own playing days "let him know you're there son early doors" was the last thing my my coach/manager said to me every week!! ...... and I did. Only ever got booked once!!!!

[A Hi-Bee]

It would appear that Pele was just so special that the Brazil Government slapped a National Asset decree on him which would prevent him being transferred to Europe etc.
He was a freeking National Treasure and just the best player ever; it would seem that we live in this shiney new world where everything recent and new is just so superior to what has gone before. Its almost like a ****ing Valhalla, with nothing ever wrong.
:greengrin

[A Hi-Bee]

So it's decided then... My Grandad was right and Barney Battles was the greatest player of all time.


:greengrin

Aye and Alf Tupper wis the best ever athlete, no contest.

:greengrin

[Since90+2]

It would appear that Pele was just so special that the Brazil Government slapped a National Asset decree on him which would prevent him being transferred to Europe etc.
He was a freeking National Treasure and just the best player ever; it would seem that we live in this shiney new world where everything recent and new is just so superior to what has gone before. Its almost like a ****ing Valhalla, with nothing ever wrong.
:greengrin

You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

[wookie70]

The video from the Belgium game that Maradona played in that was apparently so horrific would suggest otherwise.

Maradonna played in an era when tackling was still hard though. Messi and Ronaldo far less so imo. Best and Pele played in a time when players could go right through the back of you to win the ball. Dribbling particularly in the middle of the pitch like Best did would often see two and three tackles in one run that would be considered red cards these days. I do think that the athleticism of modern players makes them more likely to get injured and the forwards back then often had more brains and a better turn of pace to avoid the worst of the tackle. They would get cleared out but they got their feet off the turf.

[A Hi-Bee]

You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

:thumbsup::agree:

[calumhibee1]

Maradonna played in an era when tackling was still hard though. Messi and Ronaldo far less so imo. Best and Pele played in a time when players could go right through the back of you to win the ball. Dribbling particularly in the middle of the pitch like Best did would often see two and three tackles in one run that would be considered red cards these days. I do think that the athleticism of modern players makes them more likely to get injured and the forwards back then often had more brains and a better turn of pace to avoid the worst of the tackle. They would get cleared out but they got their feet off the turf.

Come on. Often met with 3 red card worthy tackles at once yet they somehow managed to see out their careers? How is anyone supposed to believe that?

[Andy74]

You could flip your arguement and say players of yesteryear are looked upon more favourably than current players.

I'm guessing you're of an older generation which means you lean towards players who were at their peak when you were younger.

It will be the same in 20 years time and folk in their 20s and 30s now will claim Messi was the best but the younger generation will have a new icon who stakes the claim.

It's a debate that will never be won on either side.

With certain players it will be right though.

Has anyone seen a better player in his position than Pat Stanton? Would Pat then walk into our team. Exact same fitness? I’d say yes.

We are already 20 years on from Sauzee and Latapy. We might have progressed on the science but the two of them would be first picks now.

George Best in his prime? Plays for Man U now no problem. Cantona would be a first pick.

Things haven’t moved as quickly as folk think.

[James Stephen]

Yup. All these bad challenges but the best players who would have been on the end of them generally didn’t have their careers cut short any more than players do nowadays. And that’s keeping in mind that they didn’t have the medical there is now.

If the tackles were half as bad as described then the best players like Maradona would have been finished before they got started. It seems to be that advancements that have been made in every measurable sport either don’t apply to football or are to be downplayed but the kicking that these guys took is absolutely not being overplayed.. despite the evidence such as Pele playing 800 career games suggesting differently.

Surely thats because any players who did have their careers cut short by those injuries, by definition, didnt become great players?

[Since90+2]

With certain players it will be right though.

Has anyone seen a better player in his position than Pat Stanton? Would Pat then walk into our team. Exact same fitness? I’d say yes.

We are already 20 years on from Sauzee and Latapy. We might have progressed on the science but the two of them would be first picks now.

George Best in his prime? Plays for Man U now no problem. Cantona would be a first pick.

Things haven’t moved as quickly as folk think.

George Best who played in the 70s is not even half the player Marcus Rashford is currently as a direct comparison without allowances. That is if you took the literal player without any advances in sport science and tried to put him in the current man utd team. The pace, power and athleticism are in different worlds.

George Best was an alcoholic whilst he played professional football in the 70s. You are mad if you think an alcoholic could play at the highest level of football in the current era.

[Pagan Hibernia]

George Best who played in the 70s is not even half the player Marcus Rashford as a direct comparison without allowances. That is if you took the literal player without any advances in sport science and tried to put him in the current man utd team. The pace, power and athleticism are in different worlds.

George Best was an alcoholic whilst he played professional football in the 70s. You are mad if you think an alcoholic could play at the highest level of football in the current era.

Andy74 referred to Best in his prime. Best in the 1970s was not Best in his prime.

[calumhibee1]

George Best who played in the 70s is not even half the player Marcus Rashford is currently as a direct comparison without allowances. That is if you took the literal player without any advances in sport science and tried to put him in the current man utd team. The pace, power and athleticism are in different worlds.

George Best was an alcoholic whilst he played professional football in the 70s. You are mad if you think an alcoholic could play at the highest level of football in the current era.

Exactly

[Since90+2]

Andy74 referred to Best in his prime. Best in the 1970s was not Best in his prime.

Ok. Best in the 60s was also an alcoholic whilst playing professional football.

If anyone thinks an alcoholic would be playing at the pinnacle of modern day football they are mistaken.

[Andy74]

George Best who played in the 70s is not even half the player Marcus Rashford is currently as a direct comparison without allowances. That is if you took the literal player without any advances in sport science and tried to put him in the current man utd team. The pace, power and athleticism are in different worlds.

George Best was an alcoholic whilst he played professional football in the 70s. You are mad if you think an alcoholic could play at the highest level of football in the current era.

1960s George Best would be a first pick now for Man Utd.

Some of you are getting carried away thinking we have super humans playing now.

[calumhibee1]

1960s George Best would be a first pick now for Man Utd.

Some of you are getting carried away thinking we have super humans playing now.

It’s not getting carried away. The idea that footballers have made minuscule strides forward in 50 years as you’re suggesting is pretty ludicrous. You can see watching them that they were miles off footballers now.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Ok. Best in the 60s was also an alcoholic whilst playing professional football.

If anyone thinks an alcoholic would be playing at the pinnacle of modern day football they are mistaken.

you think the Best of 1968 (European footballer if the year) wouldn’t walk into the Manchester United team or any other team right now for that matter... absolute nonsense

[Michael]

you think the Best of 1968 (European footballer if the year) wouldn’t walk into the Manchester United team or any other team right now for that matter... absolute nonsense

He's be nowhere near if he was plucked out of the 60s. If he had been training like a 2020 professional then that's a different story.

[Since90+2]

1960s George Best would be a first pick now for Man Utd.

Some of you are getting carried away thinking we have super humans playing now.

Don't be silly. George Best had a huge problem with alcohol his entire adult life which included the 60s.

If you think someone with an alcohol problem plays at the elite level of football today then you either don't understand the fitness levels of players in the modern era or you underestimate the harm alcohol causes (or possibly both).

[Since90+2]

you think the Best of 1968 (European footballer if the year) wouldn’t walk into the Manchester United team or any other team right now for that matter... absolute nonsense

No he wouldn't. Not even close.

The man was an alcoholic, he's not going to be playing elite level professional football and the demands that entails if he played nowadays.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Robin Friday...

In all seriousness, Maradona the greatest for me.

Most enjoyable? Ronaldinho.

[A Hi-Bee]

George Best, Jim Baxter and Willie Hamilton what a 3 and they all had something in common, they all had the same illness that eventually killed them, but talent that you would not see today.

[calumhibee1]

Robin Friday...

In all seriousness, Maradona the greatest for me.

Most enjoyable? Ronaldinho.

Ronaldinho I can definitely agree with. A joy to watch.

[Pagan Hibernia]

No he wouldn't. Not even close.

The man was an alcoholic, he's not going to be playing elite level professional football and the demands that entails if he played nowadays.

you’re ignoring many things. Dietary advances, fitness training regimes, and the fact that best was under a very different type of pressure at the time (one of the first celebrity footballers in Britain)...

[Andy74]

He's be nowhere near if he was plucked out of the 60s. If he had been training like a 2020 professional then that's a different story.

Not at all. The actual differences are minuscule and being very overplayed.

For context Dan James and Juan Mata were playing wide tonight for Man U. Plucked from the 1960s you are telling me that George Best doesn’t play instead? Madness.

[stantonhibby]

Don't be silly. George Best had a huge problem with alcohol his entire adult life which included the 60s.

If you think someone with an alcohol problem plays at the elite level of football today then you either don't understand the fitness levels of players in the modern era or you underestimate the harm alcohol causes (or possibly both).

Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Paul Gascoigne were all alcoholics who managed to play at the top level for a long time not that long ago. I'm sure there are many others.

[Hakim Sar]

Best player - Zidane
Most skilful- Ronaldinho
All things considered (era, hacking defenders, injury ifs and buts etc) - El Fenomeno Ronaldo Brazil.

[Since90+2]

Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Paul Gascoigne were all alcoholics who managed to play at the top level for a long time not that long ago. I'm sure there are many others.

None of which played in the modern era. And none are being mentioned as being in the conversation as being the greaest player of all time.

[Kato]

you think the Best of 1968 (European footballer if the year) wouldn’t walk into the Manchester United team or any other team right now for that matter... absolute nonsense

Pointless argument. Before the year 2000 most football players had neanderthal DNA as the predominate part of their genetic makeup, also they were all alkies, lived on lard, had no muscle, had no running ability whatsoever, played the game at 2 miles an hour, smoked 50 a day and human evolution has come on so far you could pick any 11 people of the street and they would be way better than the top 20 players of the 20th century.

[Since90+2]

you’re ignoring many things. Dietary advances, fitness training regimes, and the fact that best was under a very different type of pressure at the time (one of the first celebrity footballers in Britain)...

That's exactly the point.

[wookie70]

Come on. Often met with 3 red card worthy tackles at once yet they somehow managed to see out their careers? How is anyone supposed to believe that?


Not at once but during a run. Not red cards then but red cards now. I can't find the video where Best gets kicked up and down and eventually gets a foul and he picks the ball up as if to say this is what the defenders should be kicking. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nplemK3Y4ns&ab_channel=eoindoyle)has an essence of what I mean. Players diving in, off the ground and in the modern era arguably out of control. Think of Porteous sending off against the The Thes. Look at the run from 1 min 48 sec. They aren't necessarily career enders but they are very hard tackles and often not getting the ball. Best got this treatment week in week out. Ron Harris etc were animals. There really isn't anything like that on a regular basis these days.
I wonder how many of these tackles even got a booking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYL-f8zc50I&ab_channel=NathanTV)

There are still bad tackles in football, rarely from behind these days, but my view is that there are far, far fewer poor tackles per game. passing is also far more important than dribbling so the opportunity to half one of the opposition players is much lessened.

[Andy74]

That's exactly the point.

My point is even taking all that into account certain players then still had that fitness and their ability on top of would mean they would still be at the top today.

Split the difference time wise and bearing in mind most advancements have been in the last 20 years are guy going to argue that Sauzee and Latapy would somehow struggle physically in today’s game to the extent they wouldn’t get a game?

[stantonhibby]

None of which played in the modern era. And none are being mentioned as being in the conversation as being the greaest player of all time.

When did the modern era start then?

[calumhibee1]

Not at all. The actual differences are minuscule and being very overplayed.

For context Dan James and Juan Mata were playing wide tonight for Man U. Plucked from the 1960s you are telling me that George Best doesn’t play instead? Madness.

Carrying on saying the differences are minuscule doesn’t make it true. The differences are absolutely huge. If they weren’t then football would be the odd sport out. You pointed out yourself that half a second has been shaved off the 100m record as if it was minuscule when in reality that’s a huge amount.

An interesting comparison would actually be the improvement in the 100m. That 0.5 of a second improvement from Peles sort of era wouldn’t even see you qualify for the olympics anymore. The very best from that period wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level now, never mind challenge for being the best.

Likewise the men’s 200m butterfly. Qualifying time now is 1m56, world record in peles time was 2m19. To keep saying the improvements sportsmen have made in that period are minuscule isn’t remotely true.

Football doesn’t have such measurable stats, but if you think football somehow managed to near enough avoid the progress that every other sport with more measurable improvements has had, especially with all the money in the game, then I think you’re dreaming.

[Since90+2]

When did the modern era start then?

Certainly more than two decades ago anyway.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Pointless argument. Before the year 2000 most football players had neanderthal DNA as the predominate part of their genetic makeup, also they were all alkies, lived on lard, had no muscle, had no running ability whatsoever, played the game at 2 miles an hour, smoked 50 a day and human evolution has come on so far you could pick any 11 people of the street and they would be way better than the top 20 players of the 20th century.

I really don’t get your point at all. My point is that if Messi or Ronaldo played in that era then they would also be guilty of the same things you’ve said here. Surely that’s not even up for discussion.

[A Hi-Bee]

Carrying on saying the differences are minuscule doesn’t make it true. The differences are absolutely huge. If they weren’t then football would be the odd sport out. You pointed out yourself that half a second has been shaved off the 100m record as if it was minuscule when in reality that’s a huge amount.

An interesting comparison would actually be the improvement in the 100m. That 0.5 of a second improvement from Peles sort of era wouldn’t even see you qualify for the olympics anymore. The very best from that period wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level now, never mind challenge for being the best.

Likewise the men’s 200m butterfly. Qualifying time now is 1m56, world record in peles time was 2m19. To keep saying the improvements sportsmen have made in that period are minuscule isn’t remotely true.

If you think football somehow managed to near enough avoid the progress that every other sport with more measurable improvements has had, especially with all the money in the game, then I think you’re dreaming.

Check out the stats for Feranc Puskas, as it was mentioned a little bit back, when he finished a game he completed his 40 cigs a day habit, incredible sportsmen in any era are just that incredible sportsmen.

:cb:cb:cb

[wookie70]

Carrying on saying the differences are minuscule doesn’t make it true. The differences are absolutely huge. If they weren’t then football would be the odd sport out. You pointed out yourself that half a second has been shaved off the 100m record as if it was minuscule when in reality that’s a huge amount.

An interesting comparison would actually be the improvement in the 100m. That 0.5 of a second improvement from Peles sort of era wouldn’t even see you qualify for the olympics anymore. The very best from that period wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level now, never mind challenge for being the best.

Likewise the men’s 200m butterfly. Qualifying time now is 1m56, world record in peles time was 2m19. To keep saying the improvements sportsmen have made in that period are minuscule isn’t remotely true.

Football doesn’t have such measurable stats, but if you think football somehow managed to near enough avoid the progress that every other sport with more measurable improvements has had, especially with all the money in the game, then I think you’re dreaming.

What about the long jump - the record has stood for nearly 30 years. Triple Jump nearly 25 years. Decathlon has progressed relatively slowly too and the equipment being used must account for some of the advances. Throwing events are all old records too. Straight sprints aren't really a good comparison to football imo. Flo Jo still is the fastest woman at 100m although she probably had some assistance and the woman's high jump record is over 30 years old. No doubt the average fitness in football is miles higher but then again far fewer kids play it so perhaps the average natural ability is lower. The brain is also just as important as the body in football and some of the greats talked about here from modern and older eras have footballing brains that lift them about any physical attributes other players have or had.

[Since90+2]

What about the long jump - the record has stood for nearly 30 years. Triple Jump nearly 25 years. Decathlon has progressed relatively slowly too and the equipment being used must account for some of the advances. Throwing events are all old records too. Straight sprints aren't really a good comparison to football imo. Flo Jo still is the fastest woman at 100m although she probably had some assistance and the woman's high jump record is over 30 years old. No doubt the average fitness in football is miles higher but then again far fewer kids play it so perhaps the average natural ability is lower. The brain is also just as important as the body in football and some of the greats talked about here from modern and older eras have footballing brains that lift them about any physical attributes other players have or had.

What evidence is there that the players of older eras had better footballing brains than Messi for example?

[calumhibee1]

What about the long jump - the record has stood for nearly 30 years. Triple Jump nearly 25 years. Decathlon has progressed relatively slowly too and the equipment being used must account for some of the advances. Throwing events are all old records too. Straight sprints aren't really a good comparison to football imo. Flo Jo still is the fastest woman at 100m although she probably had some assistance and the woman's high jump record is over 30 years old. No doubt the average fitness in football is miles higher but then again far fewer kids play it so perhaps the average natural ability is lower. The brain is also just as important as the body in football and some of the greats talked about here from modern and older eras have footballing brains that lift them about any physical attributes other players have or had.

There’ll be some exceptions, especially in sports with lower participation levels and money to progress. It’s telling that all the biggest events have massively improved though.

As for ability - Messi and Ronaldo are miles in front on that respect as well. Not a chance you’d see Pele or Maradona scoring goals like the overhead kick from Ronaldo in the Champs League. Watching football from the 80s and before it’s pretty clear for everyone to see how poor the standard is compared to now.

[wookie70]

What evidence is there that the players of older eras had better footballing brains than Messi for example?
Not sure they did and I never said that. I said the greats usually have a better footballing brain and that is what lifts them above players of their era.

I'm not sure there will ever be evidence that one player is better than another. There are simply too many different qualities to consider and football is also a team game so who you play with has a massive factor in what you win and what type of service or time you get on the ball. Messi and Ronaldo are both fantastic players as there all the players mentioned in this thread. There are arguments on both sides that I think are valid. Modern day players don't suffer the same amount of violence in terms of tackling but they also have far less time on the ball. It is a fascinating topic and there isn't a right answer. Not sure if the ball has been mentioned. Messi has a waterproof lightweight ball which rolls on a beautifully maintained and short cut pitch. Far cry from what Pele had to ply his trade with.

[wookie70]

Not a chance you’d see Pele or Maradona scoring goals like the overhead kick from Ronaldo in the Champs League. Have you not seen Escape from Victory. I'm sure Pele did it with a broken arm lol

Trevor Sinclairs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MomkYgXPudw&ab_channel=TheEmiratesFACup)was a better goal than Ronaldos

[The Count]

How good would Best be in the current virtual non contact football we now play.Some of the younger posters should familiarise themselves with the tackling Pele,Best and Maradonna etc. had to contend with.It was brutal and you virtually had to kill someone before being sent off.You are comparing apples and pears with footballers in 21st Century compared to 20th Century.

[MWHIBBIES]

How good would Best be in the current virtual non contact football we now play.Some of the younger posters should familiarise themselves with the tackling Pele,Best and Maradonna etc. had to contend with.It was brutal and you virtually had to kill someone before being sent off.You are comparing apples and pears with footballers in 21st Century compared to 20th Century.

Do you genuinely think bad tackles are the reason for Messi and Ronaldo scoring over 400 more goals than George Best?

It may have been a bit rougher but the quality of defences now is also significantly higher.

[calumhibee1]

How good would Best be in the current virtual non contact football we now play.Some of the younger posters should familiarise themselves with the tackling Pele,Best and Maradonna etc. had to contend with.It was brutal and you virtually had to kill someone before being sent off.You are comparing apples and pears with footballers in 21st Century compared to 20th Century.

Whilst we keep reading this, the evidence doesn’t really stack up - no real difference in serious injuries, players playing hundreds upon hundreds of games in a period where less games were played, hardly any actual evidence of any of these tackles.. f it was half as brutal as it was made out then the best players like Pele and Maradona would have sat out vast periods of their careers. Somehow they never. Pele especially ended his career with more appearances than most players will nowadays and teams play more games now than ever.

I also would suggest you need to be a better player to get the better of a good defender who can actually defend than one of these guys that are being described like cage fighters.

[wookie70]

Whilst we keep reading this, the evidence doesn’t really stack up - no real difference in serious injuries, players playing hundreds upon hundreds of games in a period where less games were played, hardly any actual evidence of any of these tackles.. f it was half as brutal as it was made out then the best players like Pele and Maradona would have sat out vast periods of their careers. Somehow they never. Pele especially ended his career with more appearances than most players will nowadays and teams play more games now than ever.

I also would suggest you need to be a better player to get the better of a good defender who can actually defend than one of these guys that are being described like cage fighters.

Just watch any game from pre 1990 for evidence. Go to youtube and look for Ron Harris, Vinnie Jones, Norman Hunter. Tackling was savage before football was sanitised. Injections to play were also common place and many of the older era players struggle in their later years. Here is one of the most skilful players and his nemesis for an example of what tackling was like at the end of the era of the really bad tackle not being red carded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DgrHrT1O5c&ab_channel=Raulzeo

These older era players became greats because they were clever, quick or lucky enough to avoid injuries. I would definitely conceded that fitness was worse and the greats could probably get away with playing with a knock. Perhaps, like cars, not being finely tuned enables you to keep going even when there are a few issues. Cars are actually quite an interesting parallel and also probably similar in terms of when you grew up will influence what you think are the greatest. As a whole cars are much quicker and leaner but then again they are also quite samey as an industry with only the odd one breaking the monotony

[The Count]

Do you genuinely think bad tackles are the reason for Messi and Ronaldo scoring over 400 more goals than George Best?

It may have been a bit rougher but the quality of defences now is also significantly higher.

I take it you attended a lot of games in the 60s and 70s.I would also add pitches were not like bowling greens as they are now.Try playing football at Derbys baseball ground in the 70s.Anyway in general i do not believe in comparing sportsmans from different era's. Lets just say they were all great footballers there own era.

[660]

I’m reeling from the news that football existed before Sky and the premier league tbqh

[jgl07]

Eusebio

Good call. I have seen Pele, Messi, Ronaldo and most of the usual suspects play live but none come near to Eusebio for me.

Eusebio was in a different class. I saw Eusebio play in the 1966 World Cup and in the Eusopean Cup Final in 1968.

Pele never played in European League football so we cannot judge how good he was beyond the World Cup and matches for New York Cosmos by which time he was 35.

[calumhibee1]

I’m reeling from the news that football existed before Sky and the premier league tbqh

You’ll be even more reeling when you find out the world has progressed over the last 60 years :agree: other than football of course. Football was the only thing missed out.

[James Stephen]

What always gets me about these debates is how it completely excludes anyone from the entire first half of football history, as it only ever includes post war players.

I think the debate should therefore be best player a person ever saw.

In my case, it is undoubtedly Messi, with Maradona a very close second.

[Keith_M]

Naw Darling Willie Groves was better 😃


Actually Billy, you might have a point.


:aok:

[Andy74]

Good call. I have seen Pele, Messi, Ronaldo and most of the usual suspects play live but none come near to Eusebio for me.

Eusebio was in a different class. I saw Eusebio play in the 1966 World Cup and in the Eusopean Cup Final in 1968.

Pele never played in European League football so we cannot judge how good he was beyond the World Cup and matches for New York Cosmos by which time he was 35.

Pele, as was the norm then didn’t move to Europe but he did play games against the then European champions. He scored 7 goals in those 3 games.

[Keith_M]

It's amazing how something so unimportant (honestly, what does it really matter) has produced posts with such a level of vitriol and sarcasm.


Seriously, time to lighten up a bit.

[Andy74]

It's amazing how something so unimportant (honestly, what does it really matter) has produced posts with such a level of vitriol and sarcasm.


Seriously, time to lighten up a bit.

Seems light hearted enough to me?

[Keith_M]

Seems light hearted enough to me?


Your posts are, some of the others not so much.

[Eyrie]

Your posts are, some of the others not so much.

Welcome to the internet, where you're never wrong and anyone disagreeing with you deserves to have that obvious idiocy highlighted.

[Keith_M]

Welcome to the internet, where you're never wrong and anyone disagreeing with you deserves to have that obvious idiocy highlighted.


:greengrin

[winnipeg jets]

The Belfast boy, simply the best.

[Radium]

I think to say there's not been an iconic moment in Messi's career is absolute nonsense but of course it's all about opinions -

His first ever goal for Barca where he chipped the keeper and Ronaldinho carried him around on his back on celebration as if he was passing on the Barcelona batton.. a moment in which Ronaldinho has said that Messi was already the best player at Barcelona, he was only 17.

There's the goal when he put Boateng on his arse after turning him inside out then chipped Neuer

Header against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal from distance against Man Utd in the Champions League final

His goal in the Spanish cup final where he beat about 5 players

His hatrick against Real Madrid when he would have been about 19/20

His last minute winner against Real when he held his top up at the Bernebau

His chip across goal in off the bar - one of the best goals there's ever been technique wise IMO

His goal when the defender has just about jumped on his back and he still manages to turn 4 players inside out before firing home - not sure who they were playing, white tops, blue shorts

His near enough carbon copy of Maradonas goal against England

His place in a Barca team winning a treble and being the talisman for that team

I'm sure I could go on for much much longer but to say that Messi hasn't had an iconic moment in his career is utterly laughable to me.

If I say that Messi and Ronaldo are heading to a changing room beside Best, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Matthews, all I am saying is that that they are the best of their generation but for Messi Argentina’s lack of international during his career will keep him off the top step.

It is also generational. ‘78 World Cup is the first I remember and by the time I was really into watching football Maradonna was dragging Argentina to a World Cup and gracing C4 on a Sunday afternoon at Napoli.

Re my comment on iconic moments. Messi is a great and your passion and perspective around his career is worth total respect. Defining the GOAT in a team game with 150 years of football history to choose from is not straightforward and I simply believe that success in the World Cup survives the test of time.


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[MWHIBBIES]

If I say that Messi and Ronaldo are heading to a changing room beside Best, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Matthews, all I am saying is that that they are the best of their generation but for Messi Argentina’s lack of international during his career will keep him off the top step.

It is also generational. ‘78 World Cup is the first I remember and by the time I was really into watching football Maradonna was dragging Argentina to a World Cup and gracing C4 on a Sunday afternoon at Napoli.

Re my comment on iconic moments. Messi is a great and your passion and perspective around his career is worth total respect. Defining the GOAT in a team game with 150 years of football history to choose from is not straightforward and I simply believe that success in the World Cup survives the test of time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn't disagree more. 4 European cups is as good as any international trophy. If he wins the 2022 world cup, will that make him the best ever? Its the only real argument against him.

If Ronaldo wins it he'd have zero argument against him either.

[mjhibby]

Not sure they did and I never said that. I said the greats usually have a better footballing brain and that is what lifts them above players of their era.

I'm not sure there will ever be evidence that one player is better than another. There are simply too many different qualities to consider and football is also a team game so who you play with has a massive factor in what you win and what type of service or time you get on the ball. Messi and Ronaldo are both fantastic players as there all the players mentioned in this thread. There are arguments on both sides that I think are valid. Modern day players don't suffer the same amount of violence in terms of tackling but they also have far less time on the ball. It is a fascinating topic and there isn't a right answer. Not sure if the ball has been mentioned. Messi has a waterproof lightweight ball which rolls on a beautifully maintained and short cut pitch. Far cry from what Pele had to ply his trade with.

Indeed. Maradona was assaulted just about in every game in Italy when they had the best league in the world but was still top scorer. He was and will always be the goat for me. Just a phenomenal player who dragged Argentina to World Cup glory. Cruyff would be in the mix too. Fabulous player.

[Sammy7nil]

Couldn't disagree more. 4 European cups is as good as any international trophy. If he wins the 2022 world cup, will that make him the best ever? Its the only real argument against him.

If Ronaldo wins it he'd have zero argument against him either.

Winning European Cups when you can finish 4th in the league, (Liverpool may have been 5th the year they won it) lose multiple games in the groups and knock out stages it is perhaps a little easier to win these days. It is 100% geared towards a “big” team winning it .

There is no point in comparing generations however Messi and Ronaldo can be compared imho and I would take either in my team but given the pick I would have Messi.

[Sammy7nil]

Indeed. Maradona was assaulted just about in every game in Italy when they had the best league in the world but was still top scorer. He was and will always be the goat for me. Just a phenomenal player who dragged Argentina to World Cup glory. Cruyff would be in the mix too. Fabulous player.

For those that don’t believe he got it tough watch Maradona in Mexico the documentary of now when he is a manger he can hardly walk and uses crutches a lot as his knees are gone. As many have said he probably took lots of injections to play through injury and is paying the price.

[J-C]

Already been said but it's hard to pick an all time best when there's generations between the players. Best was a brilliant player, being N Irish he didn't get a chance to show his genius on the world stage but he did in Europe, he had everything. Pele was also a genius and way ahead of his time, played all his career in S America but showed his talent at world cups. Ronaldo and Messi's records speak for themselves and right up there, like a lot of these types of threads they're all subjective, no ones wrong or right.

[HoboHarry]

Already been said but it's hard to pick an all time best when there's generations between the players. Best was a brilliant player, being N Irish he didn't get a chance to show his genius on the world stage but he did in Europe, he had everything. Pele was also a genius and way ahead of his time, played all his career in S America but showed his talent at world cups. Ronaldo and Messi's records speak for themselves and right up there, like a lot of these types of threads they're all subjective, no ones wrong or right.
He also played for New York Cosmos at the tail end of his career.....

[Radium]

Couldn't disagree more. 4 European cups is as good as any international trophy. If he wins the 2022 world cup, will that make him the best ever? Its the only real argument against him.

If Ronaldo wins it he'd have zero argument against him either.

He loses out to Di Stefano who has 5 European Cups, at a time when only the league winners were involved and scored in each final. (Written with a smile and a wink). Pele thought he was quite good as well

https://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spanish-football/2009/09/17/1506871/di-stefano-was-the-best-maradona-could-not-score-with-his

As has already been said this will be an everlasting debate and nobody, myself included, has a winning argument.

Not trying to be argumentative and respect your thoughts on Messi


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[Austinho]

Messi and Ronaldo have been head and shoulders above every player and have broken every record going in an era where the standard is the highest it’s ever been. Where all of their opponents are stronger, fitter, have access to the most technologically advanced treatment, sports science and tactics the game has ever seen. Where their ability and determination are the main differences from their opponents. They are playing against real athletes every single week and don’t have the opportunity to look better by playing against unfit, chain smoking players like those in the 50s-80s - no amount of nostalgia will change that.

I watched footage of George Best playing for Hibs the other day, and while he was undoubtedly still the best on the pitch and a legend of his era, his close control and agility wasn’t spectacular, and any defender worth his salt these days would have been able to stick tight to him.

There isn’t a single doubt in mind Messi and Ronaldo are the greatest players to ever exist. And I also believe as the game advances even further that they’ll be surpassed eventually too. Look at athletics - world records are regularly surpassed - the longest standing record being 34 years. So all records have been broken since 1983, and most of the records still standing from the 80s are held by Eastern European’s in suspicious circumstances. Sports will always advance and so will sportsmen.

[BILLYHIBS]

Messi and Ronaldo have been head and shoulders above every player and have broken every record going in an era where the standard is the highest it’s ever been. Where all of their opponents are stronger, fitter, have access to the most technologically advanced treatment, sports science and tactics the game has ever seen. Where their ability and determination are the main differences from their opponents. They are playing against real athletes every single week and don’t have the opportunity to look better by playing against unfit, chain smoking players like those in the 50s-80s - no amount of nostalgia will change that.

I watched footage of George Best playing for Hibs the other day, and while he was undoubtedly still the best on the pitch and a legend of his era, his close control and agility wasn’t spectacular, and any defender worth his salt these days would have been able to stick tight to him.

There isn’t a single doubt in mind Messi and Ronaldo are the greatest players to ever exist. And I also believe as the game advances even further that they’ll be surpassed eventually too. Look at athletics - world records are regularly surpassed - the longest standing record being 34 years. So all records have been broken since 1983, and most of the records still standing from the 80s are held by Eastern European’s in suspicious circumstances. Sports will always advance and so will sportsmen.
Diego Maradona is up there with Messi and Ronaldo without a doubt

If you ask any of that triumvirate if any of them think they are better than Pele taking everything into account all of them would honestly say no

Pele is king

[Steve20]

Messi and Ronaldo have been head and shoulders above every player and have broken every record going in an era where the standard is the highest it’s ever been. Where all of their opponents are stronger, fitter, have access to the most technologically advanced treatment, sports science and tactics the game has ever seen. Where their ability and determination are the main differences from their opponents. They are playing against real athletes every single week and don’t have the opportunity to look better by playing against unfit, chain smoking players like those in the 50s-80s - no amount of nostalgia will change that.

I watched footage of George Best playing for Hibs the other day, and while he was undoubtedly still the best on the pitch and a legend of his era, his close control and agility wasn’t spectacular, and any defender worth his salt these days would have been able to stick tight to him.

There isn’t a single doubt in mind Messi and Ronaldo are the greatest players to ever exist. And I also believe as the game advances even further that they’ll be surpassed eventually too. Look at athletics - world records are regularly surpassed - the longest standing record being 34 years. So all records have been broken since 1983, and most of the records still standing from the 80s are held by Eastern European’s in suspicious circumstances. Sports will always advance and so will sportsmen.

They’re sensational. But Pele and Maradona were even a level above those two.

And I’ve read on here than George Best wouldn’t get into the Man Utd team? What? I can’t believe what I just read.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Messi and Ronaldo have been head and shoulders above every player and have broken every record going in an era where the standard is the highest it’s ever been. Where all of their opponents are stronger, fitter, have access to the most technologically advanced treatment, sports science and tactics the game has ever seen. Where their ability and determination are the main differences from their opponents. They are playing against real athletes every single week and don’t have the opportunity to look better by playing against unfit, chain smoking players like those in the 50s-80s - no amount of nostalgia will change that.

I watched footage of George Best playing for Hibs the other day, and while he was undoubtedly still the best on the pitch and a legend of his era, his close control and agility wasn’t spectacular, and any defender worth his salt these days would have been able to stick tight to him.

There isn’t a single doubt in mind Messi and Ronaldo are the greatest players to ever exist. And I also believe as the game advances even further that they’ll be surpassed eventually too. Look at athletics - world records are regularly surpassed - the longest standing record being 34 years. So all records have been broken since 1983, and most of the records still standing from the 80s are held by Eastern European’s in suspicious circumstances. Sports will always advance and so will sportsmen.

well into his 30s and after a solid decade of alcohol abuse george best at Hibs in 79-80 was a pale imitation of what he had been and what he could previously do. He even looked like a completely different player physically to the majestic little thing that terrorised English and European defences in the 1960s

[J-C]

He also played for New York Cosmos at the tail end of his career.....


I forgot about that, ta.

[calumhibee1]

They’re sensational. But Pele and Maradona were even a level above those two.

And I’ve read on here than George Best wouldn’t get into the Man Utd team? What? I can’t believe what I just read.

George Best would get nowhere near Man Utd now.

You can’t seriously think that a full blown alcoholic could compete at the top end of football nowadays against the athletes that are around now - as much as the athletic prowess of players these days has been attempted to have been played down on this thread. I don’t care how talented he was, someone with his lifestyle absolutely could not play at the top level now, nowhere near it infact.

[J-C]

George Best would get nowhere near Man Utd now.

You can’t seriously think that a full blown alcoholic could compete at the top end of football nowadays against the athletes that are around now - as much as the athletic prowess of players these days has been attempted to have been played down.


Do you think that in today's game he would be an alcoholic?

Best was an outstanding player and if he was playing right now in has early 20's he'd walk into Man U and in fact most big European teams. The 60's and 70's were a different era where players regularly smoked and drank, today's players are better looked after on and off the pitch.

[Since90+2]

Do you think that in today's game he would be an alcoholic?

Best was an outstanding player and if he was playing right now in has early 20's he'd walk into Man U and in fact most big European teams. The 60's and 70's were a different era where players regularly smoked and drank, today's players are better looked after on and off the pitch.

I think that's the whole point. If you took the literal player who played in the 60s and 70s he'd be nowhere near top level football due to his alcohol consumption.

If we was about these days there is a very good chance he would be a top level player. I don't think that can be certain though as there's no guarantee he'd have been able to commit to the lifestyle required. A very talented player nonetheless.

[Kato]

George Best would get nowhere near Man Utd now.

You can’t seriously think that a full blown alcoholic could compete at the top end of football nowadays against the athletes that are around now - as much as the athletic prowess of players these days has been attempted to have been played down on this thread. I don’t care how talented he was, someone with his lifestyle absolutely could not play at the top level now, nowhere near it infact.He wasn't a full blown alcoholic at 17 or at 24. During his peak years before that problem hit him he would walk into any team in Europe, unless talent is somehow different these days.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[calumhibee1]

Do you think that in today's game he would be an alcoholic?

Best was an outstanding player and if he was playing right now in has early 20's he'd walk into Man U and in fact most big European teams. The 60's and 70's were a different era where players regularly smoked and drank, today's players are better looked after on and off the pitch.

That’s a different argument though - it’s comparing a George Best that never even existed which I think is where the argument that Pele, Maradona etc would have been better had they had the modern tech etc fall down. They didn’t have what players have now so we’re then starting to compare fictional versions of Pele, Maradona, Best etc rather than the versions that actually existed.

[calumhibee1]

He wasn't a full blown alcoholic at 17 or at 24. During his peak years before that problem hit him he would walk into any team in Europe, unless talent is somehow different these days.

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Talent is different nowadays. Talent at the top level comes in a 6ft2, ultra lean package where the players are faster and more powerful than ever along with all the skill and technique. Players might not have been technically worse (although even then from watching clips I’d say they were much poorer) but even if they were similar, they were physically nowhere near as good. All this stuff combines to make a footballer, it’s not purely technique. If it was then these players would have a better arguement.

[Since90+2]

He wasn't a full blown alcoholic at 17 or at 24. During his peak years before that problem hit him he would walk into any team in Europe, unless talent is somehow different these days.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Did Best smoke throughout his life? I know his alcohol problems are well documented but not sure if he was also a smoker.

[Killiehibbie]

Talent is different nowadays. Talent at the top level comes in a 6ft2, ultra lean package where the players are faster and more powerful than ever along with all the skill and technique. Players might not have been technically worse (although even then from watching clips I’d say they were much poorer) but even if they were similar, they were physically nowhere near as good. All this stuff combines to make a footballer, it’s not purely technique. If it was then these players would have a better arguement. 5 foot 7? Messi where does he fit in?

[calumhibee1]

5 foot 7? Messi where does he fit in?

I was speaking in general terms because we were more talking about whether Best would get in the Man Utd team.

Messi is just a freak in terms of ability, vision whilst also being absolutely rapid off the mark - at least in his younger years. The best ever imo.

[Andy74]

I was speaking in general terms because we were more talking about whether Best would get in the Man Utd team.

Messi is just a freak in terms of ability, vision whilst also being absolutely rapid off the mark - at least in his younger years. The best ever imo.

And George Best wasn’t a freak talent in his peak?

The perception that all current players are superhuman and all players 50 years ago were unfit and slow is just nonsense.

[calumhibee1]

As a slightly different point, the first result that came up on google indicated that footballers in the 70s covered around 4km a game. Now tbh, as much as I’ve been very vocal in saying that footballers now are physically better, I struggle to believe it was anywhere near as low as that. If it was though, then the 10km or so that players run a game now would see these teams/players be so far out their depth on fitness alone.

I’m aware though that there probably wouldn’t be proper statistics on these things from that sort of time.

[calumhibee1]

And George Best wasn’t a freak talent in his peak?

The perception that all current players are superhuman and all players 50 years ago were unfit and slow is just nonsense.

Your insistence that footballers/athletes have made minuscule physical improvements in the last 50 years is what’s nonsense. The world record holder in other sports like the 100m - a skill that would have some sort of benefit in football - wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level anymore, never mind challenge to be the best, yet you’re convinced that football - as one of the wealthiest sports in the world - for some reason was missed out in these massive improvements.

You don’t even need statistics to see that players have improved massively physically. Watch peak Cristiano Ronaldo breaking up the pitch on a counter attack and try tell me with a straight face that players from yesteryear could do it at anywhere near the same sort of speed. Likewise watch Ronaldo score his header the other season for Juve and tell me a player from yesteryear could get to that sort of height. He’s literally above the crossbar. They quite simply couldn’t.

[tamig]

Talent is different nowadays. Talent at the top level comes in a 6ft2, ultra lean package where the players are faster and more powerful than ever along with all the skill and technique. Players might not have been technically worse (although even then from watching clips I’d say they were much poorer) but even if they were similar, they were physically nowhere near as good. All this stuff combines to make a footballer, it’s not purely technique. If it was then these players would have a better arguement.

And how does Messi fit into that template 😂

[calumhibee1]

And how does Messi fit into that template 😂

As I said, it was a general point because we were discussing whether George Best would get into the Man Utd team. However, whilst Messi doesn’t fit into it, the guys he has to play against do. Unlike the defenders the likes of Maradona, Pele etc came up against.

Peak Messi was absolutely lightning quick with imo the best technical ability of any footballer ever by quite some distance.

[FilipinoHibs]

5 foot 7? Messi where does he fit in?

I am a seller at 5 foot 7. Pele was 5 foot 8. As well as having all round great skills he was a good athlete. You have to remember the drinking in particular was a British player trait. Foreign players did physical training and had good diets. We may not have had a developed Sports Science but foreign teams were well on the way. Foreign teams dominated World Cups and club championships and still do.

[tamig]

As I said, it was a general point because we were discussing whether George Best would get into the Man Utd team.

Peak Messi was absolutely lightning quick with imo the best technical ability of any footballer ever by quite some distance.

George Best’s footballing skills - at his peak - would see him walk into most, if not all, of the top European teams today. George Best was quick in his heyday. And probably took more of a battering than and of his modern day peers. He was one of the greatest.

[calumhibee1]

George Best’s footballing skills - at his peak - would see him walk into most, if not all, of the top European teams today. George Best was quick in his heyday. And probably took more of a battering than and of his modern day peers. He was one of the greatest.

Not for me, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Videos of him would never suggest such exceptional levels of skill that he could get by on that alone whilst being an alcoholic against the super-fit physical freaks that exist at the top level today.

[calumhibee1]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/sorry-bobby-becks-and-his-mates-would-have-run-rings-round-your-lot-136038.html%3famp

Let’s keep in mind this article is from 2002 and footballers have physically come on leaps and bounds even since then. We’re talking comparisons with players 30 years previous to the article and were 18 years on from that now so you could probably look at the comparisons and add at least 20-30% on again for players now.

Fitness training consisted of running laps round a track/up sand dunes
Players didn’t really bother warming up - Jimmy Greaves said it tired him out too much

Players ate steak dinners before games - an absolute shocker of a pre match meal
Players in 2002 covered 30m in 3.94 on average. The top players like Ronaldo and Messi would be significantly quicker than that anyway, even more so when you account for the fact they hit their peak 10-15 years after that stat was relevant.

Average player ran 8-11km in the 70s. In 2002 it was 12-14km with a greater percentage of that also being at higher intensity. Again, we’re 18 years on from the article being written so I’m sure that stat will be even more in favour of players now.

This idea that footballers nowadays aren’t that much better physically is shot down by near enough every bit of evidence that you could find. These guys might have been great in their day, they might have even been further ahead of their peers than Ronaldo and Messi, but they were physically miles behind and would struggle to play at any form of decent level nowadays, never mind the top.

[The Modfather]

Surely this debate should be about natural ability alone as that’s comparable across the eras. Anything else is supposition.

E.G. would Ronaldo be the same physical specimen (to the extent he is today anyway as he’s blessed with athletic genes as well as his hard work) in the 60s or 70s without the benefits of sport science and conditioning we have today? I don’t think Ronaldo has the natural ability of Messi or Maradona, but he’s fulfilled every bit of potential he has. Could he do that to the same extent in the 60s or 70s?

For what it’s worth, I vote Messi based on natural ability and consistency closely followed by Ronaldo for his consistency and longevity.

[calumhibee1]

Surely this debate should be about natural ability alone as that’s comparable across the eras. Anything else is supposition.

E.G. would Ronaldo be the same physical specimen (to the extent he is today anyway as he’s blessed with athletic genes as well as his hard work) in the 60s or 70s without the benefits of sport science and conditioning we have today? I don’t think Ronaldo has the natural ability of Messi or Maradona, but he’s fulfilled every bit of potential he has. Could he do that to the same extent in the 60s or 70s?

For what it’s worth, I vote Messi based on natural ability and consistency closely followed by Ronaldo for his consistency and longevity.

That’s probably a fairer debate for the older players but then you’re starting to compare fictional versions of players rather than the actual versions that existed. Saying that Pele now would be quicker, stronger, fitter etc is probably true. But Pele wasn’t quicker, stronger or fitter like he would be now. Likewise saying Ronaldo wouldn’t be the specimen he is now back then is almost undoubtedly true. But he is that physical specimen, so again, it would be comparing a Ronaldo that doesn’t exist rather than the one that actually does exist.

There’s no doubting that it’s not necessarily a ‘fair’ debate for the older players. They’re being compared with a massive disadvantage. But at the end of the day, they had that disadvantage and it played a part in forming the player they were.

[Andy74]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/sorry-bobby-becks-and-his-mates-would-have-run-rings-round-your-lot-136038.html%3famp

Let’s keep in mind this article is from 2002 and footballers have physically come on leaps and bounds even since then. We’re talking comparisons with players 30 years previous to the article and were 18 years on from that now so you could probably look at the comparisons and add at least 20-30% on again.

Fitness training consisted of running laps round a track/up sand dunes
Players didn’t really bother warming up - Jimmy Greaves said it tired him out too much

Players ate steak dinners before games - an absolute shocker of a pre match meal
Players in 2002 covered 30m in 3.94 on average. The top players like Ronaldo and Messi would be significantly quicker than that anyway, even more so when you account for the fact they hit their peak 10-15 years after that stat was relevant.

Average player ran 8-11km in the 70s. In 2002 it was 12-14km with a greater percentage of that also being at higher intensity.

This idea that footballers nowadays aren’t that much better physically is shot down by near enough every bit of evidence that you could find. These guys might have been great in their day, they might have even been further ahead of their peers than Ronaldo and Messi, but they were physically miles behind and would struggle to play at any form of decent level nowadays, never mind the top.

Remember the players we are talking about were all exceptional of their time. An average team now would probably win out over an average team from the 60s and 70s.

Pele for example was physically a beast. Best was quick and his feet and vision were ahead of anyone.

Football of course is not all about running fast or long in any case. The likes of Messi, Modric, Zlatan etc aren’t all about being exceptional athletes.

You think things have improved markedly over 20 years. I’m assuming you’re saying Sauzee and Latapy wouldn’t get in this Hibs team? Most people who actually watched both teams would probably be pretty clear that both would walk into it.

[Kato]

Did Best smoke throughout his life? I know his alcohol problems are well documented but not sure if he was also a smoker.He, like most footballers in the 20th Century, was on 40 a day. They also injected heroin between his toes and had a heavy valium habit. It's a wonder they made it off the team bus.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[calumhibee1]

Remember the players we are talking about were all exceptional of their time. An average team now would probably win out over an average team from the 60s and 70s.

Pele for example was physically a beast. Best was quick and his feet and vision were ahead of anyone.

Football of course is not all about running fast or long in any case. The likes of Messi, Modric, Zlatan etc aren’t all about being exceptional athletes.

You think things have improved markedly over 20 years. I’m assuming you’re saying Sauzee and Latapy wouldn’t get in this Hibs team? Most people who actually watched both teams would probably be pretty clear that both would walk into it.

As are Ronaldo and Messi exceptional of their time. If the average players now would probably beat a team of the average players back then it would stand to reason that the exceptional players now would be better than the exceptional then as well. I doubt the difference between the very best and their peers has massively changed. However, I don’t think there’s any doubt that a team of average now would beat average back then as you’d suggest. In fact I’d suggest the Hibs team now would comfortably beat the very best from the 70s and before. They’d physically dominate them. The stats from that link I provided would probably suggest that teams from the 70s had the physical prowess of a part time team - I’d highly doubt part time team players cover less than 7-9km a game for example.

Thinks have massively improved over the last 20 years, again, it would defy logic for that not to be the case. The difference with your Hibs analogy is that Hibs have dropped further and further from the sort of level we were at with Sauzee and Latapy and on top of that, they were playing less than 20 years ago, not 60 like Pele. We were a lot closer to a high level of the footballing hierarchy than we are now and the players we had then reflected that - back then we signed a Champions League winner and France captain, nowadays we sign guys from English League One and League Two, so no, I’m not saying Sauzee and Latapy wouldn’t get in the Hibs team now.

We’re comparing the very best v the very best in different eras. That comparison is comparing very, very good with distinctly average and doesn’t work.

[Sammy7nil]

I think you put too much on physical attributes over ability.

I think the Tornadoes would give today’s team a good game and that is with a fifty year gap.

Edwards, Stanton, Duncan, etc imho would do fine on their ability alone not saying they would definitely win but I like to bet the Tornadoes at say 7/2

[Since90+2]

I think you put too much on physical attributes over ability.

I think the Tornadoes would give today’s team a good game and that is with a fifty year gap.

Edwards, Stanton, Duncan, etc imho would do fine on their ability alone not saying they would definitely win but I like to bet the Tornadoes at say 7/2

Current Hibs team would hammer the Tornadoes. Probably about 5 or 6 nil.

Similarly if you took the Lisbon Lions and put them against the current European Champions they would be absolutely annihilated. Would probably be about 10-0.

[calumhibee1]

I think you put too much on physical attributes over ability.

I think the Tornadoes would give today’s team a good game and that is with a fifty year gap.

Edwards, Stanton, Duncan, etc imho would do fine on their ability alone not saying they would definitely win but I like to bet the Tornadoes at say 7/2

Not at all. The Hibs team today would rip them a new one.

If physical attributes are over played - does anyone think Hibs would toil against the best women’s teams? And if not, then why not? Most likely physical differences more than anything.

[wookie70]

Stole this from another forum but it was quite interesting. Not too scientific as there is only single games used for comparison but it does suggest that speed hasn't increased greatly. How far is travelled is a different story of course

"The following are the results conducted by the German Sport Academy of Cologne. The scientists were asked by German football magazine “11 Freunde” to analyze 19 German World Cup games from 1958, 1966, 1970, 1974, 1982, 1986 and 1990 and to compare them with those of 2002 to 2010 (for which the data was already available). Of the 1958 World Cup, the only German game that was reviewed was the third place game against France (3-6). The game was rather meaningless to Germany and was played by a B-selection. Since the nature of that game was not really competitive, in my opinion it skewes the 1958 results quite a bit.

The researchers focused on the pace of the games, which of course is one of the Modernists’ most beloved-arguments to underline the superiority of the modern game. The pace was measured in meters per second. To obtain that figure for the older games, the scientists measured the net playing time which they put into relation to the distance the ball covered.

The German World Cup teams with the highest average pace were as follows:

Pace

1974 2.60 meters/per second
2010 2.60 m/s
1966 2.40 m/s
2002 2.25 m/s
1986 2.10 m/s
1990 1.95 m/s
1982 1.90 m/s
2006 1.85 m/s
1958 1.80 m/s
1970 1.75 m/s"

[Hakim Sar]

Your insistence that footballers/athletes have made minuscule physical improvements in the last 50 years is what’s nonsense. The world record holder in other sports like the 100m - a skill that would have some sort of benefit in football - wouldn’t even get to compete at the elite level anymore, never mind challenge to be the best, yet you’re convinced that football - as one of the wealthiest sports in the world - for some reason was missed out in these massive improvements.

You don’t even need statistics to see that players have improved massively physically. Watch peak Cristiano Ronaldo breaking up the pitch on a counter attack and try tell me with a straight face that players from yesteryear could do it at anywhere near the same sort of speed. Likewise watch Ronaldo score his header the other season for Juve and tell me a player from yesteryear could get to that sort of height. He’s literally above the crossbar. They quite simply couldn’t.

You might be wrong on the 100m sprint part. A scientific study on Jesse Owens, Usain Bolt and Roger Bannister - https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_b etter_stronger?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Jesse Owens absolutely would compete at the top level nearing 80/90 years after he competed.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Current Hibs team would hammer the Tornadoes. Probably about 5 or 6 nil.

Similarly if you took the Lisbon Lions and put them against the current European Champions they would be absolutely annihilated. Would probably be about 10-0.

I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

[Since90+2]

I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

[Keith_M]

I remember an interview with Jim Craig (I think) in the late 90s and he was asked who would win in a game between the Celtc team that had just won the league and the Lisbon Lions.

He said something along the lines of "It would be close, The Lions would probably edge it 2-1. But, to be fair, we're all in our fifties now"

[calumhibee1]

I really think there’s a case of pudding being seriously over egged here.

from a discussion on modern players being stronger and fitter than their counterparts from years ago, now the best teams from years ago are being smashed 10-0? Nah, not for me.

Or a case of it being massively under egged.

How many talented players have came through at Hibs but don’t have the physical attributes to make it? Say Sam Stanton. Great technique, slow as a week in the jail and too weak. Never made it.

Ivan Sproule - fast as ****, poor technique for this level, exceptional.

Physical ability plays a huge part in what makes a footballer, and footballers have improved immensely physically.

[calumhibee1]

Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

Exactly. I don’t think anyone on here would suggest that the likes of the Lisbon Lions would take double figures off Hibs now. I think everyone would accept that there’s a very real possibility Bayern would. Yet when it comes down to romantically recalling individuals were suggesting that the top level back then was similar or even better than now. It doesn’t really add up.

[BILLYHIBS]

Natural ability goes a long way regardless of era

The best player Pat Stanton/Jock Stein played with/saw was Willie Hamilton and he liked a wee swally

You can only beat what’s put in front of you

[Pagan Hibernia]

Look at it another way. Would the current Hibs team beat the Lisbon Lions? I think we would. Even if you say they would win it would likely be a close game.

Now what do you think the score would be if this Hibs team player Bayern Munich?

curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

[calumhibee1]

curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can watch Celtic 67 and think they’d compete with that Bayern team but each to their own.

[Since90+2]

curent Hibs vs current Bayern. We probably lose 0-6.

current Hibs vs Lisbon lions. I think Celtic 67 wins.

celtic 67 vs Bayern 2020? Probable Bayern win. Never 10-0.

This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.