Greatest player of all time?

[calumhibee1]

This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.

I honestly think Bayern would take nearly 10 off us and I don’t even think that reflects badly on us by saying that :greengrin

[HoboHarry]

Daft discussion topics and fans on fitba forums making it up as they go along. It'll never catch on...........

[calumhibee1]

Daft discussion topics and fans on fitba forums making it up as they go along. It'll never catch on...........

To be fair, I’ve quite enjoyed this thread :agree:

It’ll never come to an agreement but that’s all part of the fun.

[DH1875]

Bayern have beaten Schalke 8-0 and Athletico Madrid 4-0 In the last month lol. We'd do well keeping it at 10.

[Sammy7nil]

Current Hibs team would hammer the Tornadoes. Probably about 5 or 6 nil.

Similarly if you took the Lisbon Lions and put them against the current European Champions they would be absolutely annihilated. Would probably be about 10-0.

I love it when people are SO certain about something that could never be proven or disproven. All I can say I is a wish you were a bookmaker 😂😁

I suppose that is why part time teams now always get scudded of their Premiership opponents and obviously they never ever score because the Premiership team is so far ahead of them in fitness and ability. Oh wait a minute ?

[Pagan Hibernia]

This thread is going off on a tangent slightly but Bayern Munich (if they were motivated) would beat us more than 6-0. They recently beat Barcelona 8-2.

They would hammer the Lions, if it was any less than 5-0 id be amazed.

well at least we’ve gone from 10-0 down to 5-0 now so we’re getting a wee bit closer to a consensus

[Since90+2]

I love it when people are SO certain about something that could never be proven or disproven. All I can say I is a wish you were a bookmaker 😂😁

I suppose that is why part time teams now always get scudded of their Premiership opponents and obviously they never ever score because the Premiership team is so far ahead of them in fitness and ability. Oh wait a minute ?

Nobody can be certain of anything, it's hypothetical.

One thing I am "SO" certain as you put it though is that Bayern Munich would beat Hibs more than 6-0. And I think they'd do that at 70%.

[Sammy7nil]

Nobody can be certain of anything, it's hypothetical.

One thing I am "SO" certain as you put it though is that Bayern Munich would beat Hibs more than 6-0. And I think they'd do that at 70%.

I agree a motivated BM would score a good few goals against Hibs not sure how many but would have the potential to be embarrassing 🙈. That is an easy comparison to make as we can see the teams. However there really is no way of saying how different generations compare. What you can say is some teams were the best or near the best of their generation and some are not 😁

[Andy74]

As are Ronaldo and Messi exceptional of their time. If the average players now would probably beat a team of the average players back then it would stand to reason that the exceptional players now would be better than the exceptional then as well. I doubt the difference between the very best and their peers has massively changed. However, I don’t think there’s any doubt that a team of average now would beat average back then as you’d suggest. In fact I’d suggest the Hibs team now would comfortably beat the very best from the 70s and before. They’d physically dominate them. The stats from that link I provided would probably suggest that teams from the 70s had the physical prowess of a part time team - I’d highly doubt part time team players cover less than 7-9km a game for example.

Thinks have massively improved over the last 20 years, again, it would defy logic for that not to be the case. The difference with your Hibs analogy is that Hibs have dropped further and further from the sort of level we were at with Sauzee and Latapy and on top of that, they were playing less than 20 years ago, not 60 like Pele. We were a lot closer to a high level of the footballing hierarchy than we are now and the players we had then reflected that - back then we signed a Champions League winner and France captain, nowadays we sign guys from English League One and League Two, so no, I’m not saying Sauzee and Latapy wouldn’t get in the Hibs team now.

We’re comparing the very best v the very best in different eras. That comparison is comparing very, very good with distinctly average and doesn’t work.

Comparing the best still works though when you can read the attributes Pele had. You think that the physical side of the game would mean the best players from back then just couldn’t hack iit now, even if they were talented.

It is just that the differences aren’t as big as you think. As quoted before if a 34 year old Pele was doing 100m in 11 seconds and jumping 6ft then he is right up there still in physicality as well as ability.

[jgl07]

How good would Best be in the current virtual non contact football we now play.Some of the younger posters should familiarise themselves with the tackling Pele,Best and Maradonna etc. had to contend with.It was brutal and you virtually had to kill someone before being sent off.You are comparing apples and pears with footballers in 21st Century compared to 20th Century.

Best could dish it out as well as most.

Glyn Pardoe of Manchester City was nearly put out of the game after a tackle by Best in 1970 that broke his leg. At one stage they thought his leg might have to be amputated.

[Austinho]

It’s not just the physical side that has improved over the decades. Each generation has benefitted from watching those before them and learned and improved from that. Even average players now are able to pull off the skills that only the likes of Best could pull off back then - they can just go on YouTube and learn. Even I’ve pulled off a few Cruyff turns. Watching football on TV was nowhere near as widespread in the 50’s/60’s so players like Best had the element of surprise on their side and players didn’t know what was coming.

Defences now are also much more disciplined from decades of tactical analysis - making it much harder for the top players of today to get the better of them. Pele was often involved in 7-5, 6-4 type scorelines, because defence wasn’t taken as seriously back then. Of course this massively enhanced his stats. The fact that Messi and Ronaldo are able to get close to those records in the modern era makes them far better players. And that’s not to take away from what Pele and Best achieved in the context of their era, which was completely groundbreaking at the time.

[BILLYHIBS]

It’s not just the physical side that has improved over the decades. Each generation has benefitted from watching those before them and learned and improved from that. Even average players now are able to pull off the skills that only the likes of Best could pull off back then - they can just go on YouTube and learn. Even I’ve pulled off a few Cruyff turns. Watching football on TV was nowhere near as widespread in the 50’s/60’s so players like Best had the element of surprise on their side and players didn’t know what was coming.

Defences now are also much more disciplined from decades of tactical analysis - making it much harder for the top players of today to get the better of them. Pele was often involved in 7-5, 6-4 type scorelines, because defence wasn’t taken as seriously back then. Of course this massively enhanced his stats. The fact that Messi and Ronaldo are able to get close to those records in the modern era makes them far better players. And that’s not to take away from what Pele and Best achieved in the context of their era, which was completely groundbreaking at the time.

You still don’t mention Diego Maradona a player that went to a provincial club in a country that prided themselves on their cattenachio defensive style of football and almost single handedly dragged them kicking and screaming to two league titles, one IFA Cup, one Super Cup and one UEFA Cup not to mention his achievements with the Argentinian national team that bettered Lionel Messi’s achievements

Oh incidentally I am firmly in the Pele camp GOAT !

[MWHIBBIES]

You still don’t mention Diego Maradona a player that went to a provincial club in a country that prided themselves on their cattenachio defensive style of football and almost single handedly dragged them kicking and screaming to two league titles, one IFA Cup, one Super Cup and one UEFA Cup not to mention his achievements with the Argentinian national team that bettered Lionel Messi’s achievements

Oh incidentally I am firmly in the Pele camp GOAT !

Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

Napoli were a decent if unsuccessful italian side until his arrival. A runners up position and a handful of 3rd place finishes in the two decades previous. Not a single league title in their history.

i’d say he brought more than just star quality. They were utterly transformed.

Messi’s statistics are undoubtedly on another level but even he is seemingly powerless to stop the terminal decline of a great Barcelona team that we’re all watching just now after the departure of a number of players who contributed to that success

[MWHIBBIES]

Napoli were a decent if unsuccessful italian side until his arrival. A runners up position and a handful of 3rd place finishes in the two decades previous. Not a single league title in their history.

i’d say he brought more than just star quality. They were utterly transformed.

Messi’s statistics are undoubtedly on another level but even he is seemingly powerless to stop the terminal decline of a great Barcelona team that we’re all watching just now after the departure of a number of players who contributed to that success
Absolutely, Diego was exactly what Napoli needed. They might have won more if he scored at the rate Messi does.


Messi is older now and Barcelona are a real mess. He's the only reason they've actually still been winning trophies and competing. His statistics are still unbelievable.

[calumhibee1]

Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.

:agree:

It must be ***** being part of the Argentina World Cup winning squad or these Napoli teams and constantly being told that you didn’t contribute to the titles you won.

It’s an absolute nonsense when it gets suggested that Maradona won they competitions single handedly. He was by far the best player in a pretty decent side. The same logic could be applied for Messi or Ronaldo, both of whom you could put forward a solid argument that without them, Real and Barca wouldn’t have won what they did. Would Real Madrid have won so many Champions Leagues without Ronaldo over the last few years? Impossible to say or course, but I’d suggest not. Doesn’t mean he won them single handedly though.

As an aside, what a horrendous league that must have been to watch. Napoli were top scorers with 41 goals in 30 games. It must have been 1-0 or worse in the vast majority of matches! :greengrin

[BILLYHIBS]

Pretty sure I've posted this before but he didn't drag anyone to anything. Napoli had a quality squad, just missed the star power he added.

Again, I'll take the extra 400 goals over some achievements with Napoli. Messis club career far exceeds Maradonas.
Ha Ha!

I actually remembered that when I was typing that was why I empathised ALMOST !

PELE ROOLS!

Did you ever watch the Maradona Movie?

I also feel that the OP just cannot ignore Maradona as he overcame some serious defences which is my point

I will take Maradona’s World Cup over Messi’s goals any day of the week

[Pagan Hibernia]

As an aside, what a horrendous league that must have been to watch. Napoli were top scorers with 41 goals in 30 games. It must have been 1-0 or worse in the vast majority of matches! :greengrin

I was actually thinking that myself when I checked wiki on the period. Shocking shortage of goals all round in Italy back then.

who knows, maybe those plodding, tactically inept, alcoholic, chain smoking defenders from the old days really did know what they were doing afterall :greengrin

[Austinho]

World Cups were the absolute pinnacle when Maradonna was a player - but not held in the same esteem in Messi’s era. Messi has take Argentina to a World Cup Final and 2 Copa America finals so its not like he is miles off Maradonna’s international achievements like you’re making out Billy. On the other hand, Messi’s domestic achievements are absolutely streets ahead of Maradona’s which consists of only 2 top level league titles in his entire career.

Maradonna was a cult figure in an era when nobody rivalled his calibre or personality, but I feel that cult status and nostalgia clouds opinions in debates like this. Messi has a far better career.

[Keith_M]

Has anybody else noticed the age divide in the Messi/Maradona debate?


:wink:

[marinello59]

Has anybody else noticed the age divide in the Messi/Maradona debate?


:wink:

Me.
That’s why I refrained from throwing Alfredo Di Stéfano in to the mix. :greengrin

[BILLYHIBS]

Has anybody else noticed the age divide in the Messi/Maradona debate?


:wink:

The fact I am sticking with Pelé tells all of these youngsters all they need to know 😃

[Keith_M]

Me.
That’s why I refrained from throwing Alfredo Di Stéfano in to the mix. :greengrin


The fact I am sticking with Pelé tells all of these youngsters all they need to know 😃


Couple of old fogies.

:greengrin

[Keith_M]

Sorry, didn't you say Messi (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/boys-dreams-meeting-lionel-messi-18969931)?

[Andy74]

Me.
That’s why I refrained from throwing Alfredo Di Stéfano in to the mix. :greengrin

My old man has been watching for about 80 years and played a bit himself.

He reckons Pele, Puskas and Di Stefano as the best 3 ever.

He puts Best, Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo all just below.

He's not a Hibs fan but he has an honourable mention for Gordon Smith. Reckons if he played in Spain or Italy at the time he could have been considered up there.

[DH1875]

No Messi V Ronaldo tonight as Ronaldo still has Covid and tested positive again.

[Killiehibbie]

No Messi V Ronaldo tonight as Ronaldo still has Covid and tested positive again.

How long has he had it?

[Since90+2]

On Saturday night it will be Kevin Nisbet.

[DH1875]

How long has he had it?
First tested positive while away with Portugal so about 2 weeks. He has said he is fine and had no symptoms but has had 3 tests since and all been positive.

[Since90+2]

First tested positive while away with Portugal so about 2 weeks. He has said he is fine and had no symptoms but has had 3 tests since and all been positive.

You can test positive for up to 3 months after having the virus. In England the rules are that you can return to training/playing 14 days after being diagnosed as you are no longer infectious.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think Messi is the best player I have ever seen, although it does not make him the best player ever, nobody can say that, it will only ever be an opinion.

[Killiehibbie]

First tested positive while away with Portugal so about 2 weeks. He has said he is fine and had no symptoms but has had 3 tests since and all been positive.

He'd be back on the ward if he was a nurse.

For many viral diseases (SARS-CoV, Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus, influenza virus, Ebola virus, and Zika virus) it is well known that viral RNA can be detected long after the disappearance of infectious virus.

[calumhibee1]

Bobby Madden’s Instagram post reminded me of this thread.. from players apparently running around 7.5km a game in the 70s we’ve now got referees running 10.5km a game these days just to keep up with the players who are running a hell of a lot more. And yet the physical differences are apparently being overplayed :greengrin

[jacomo]

Bobby Madden’s Instagram post reminded me of this thread.. from players apparently running around 7.5km a game in the 70s we’ve now got referees running 10.5km a game these days. And yet the physical differences are apparently being overplayed :greengrin


Tbf running 7.5km on the quagmire pitches of the 70s would be quite a work out!

But you are right that overall players are so much fitter and stronger than they were - the pace of the game today is much higher.

[calumhibee1]

Cristiano Ronaldo has now become the highest scoring footballer of all time.

What a player.

[FilipinoHibs]

Cristiano Ronaldo has now become the highest scoring footballer of all time.

What a player.

That is heavily disputed: https://talksport.com/football/821026/cristiano-ronaldo-highest-scoring-player-history-juventus-josef-bican-pele-lionel-messi-romario/

[calumhibee1]

That is heavily disputed: https://talksport.com/football/821026/cristiano-ronaldo-highest-scoring-player-history-juventus-josef-bican-pele-lionel-messi-romario/

True. As the only player with any reliable figure and the only one who doesn’t seem to be including friendlies/reserve games etc then he certainly seems to have the most credible claim.

[FilipinoHibs]

True. As the only player with any reliable figure and the only one who doesn’t seem to be including friendlies/reserve games etc then he certainly seems to have the most credible claim.

We can say that CR7 is only one of the four we can actually say how many goals he scored.But are friendlies on a European tour of top clubs any easier than the weaker teams in Seria A and La Liga or the weak teams in the champions league group stages. Santos FC big games outside Brazil were very limited why they went on these European tours to show the world their team and Pele. Do you think the oposition lay down or were they overcome by the two times World Club Champions?

[FilipinoHibs]

Try nipping down to Brasil and telling people Pele did not score over a thousand goals:https://youtu.be/HcitzjlbQZw

[worcesterhibby]

Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, Cruyff, Tortalano, Puskas, Messi..in that order.

[calumhibee1]

We can say that CR7 is only one of the four we can actually say how many goals he scored.But are friendlies on a European tour of top clubs any easier than the weaker teams in Seria A and La Liga or the weak teams in the champions league group stages. Santos FC big games outside Brazil were very limited why they went on these European tours to show the world their team and Pele. Do you think the oposition lay down or were they overcome by the two times World Club Champions?

Friendlies are friendlies. Ronaldo will have played his friendlies mainly against very good teams as well yet they won’t be counted. It’s just not the done thing to count club friendly goals.

Counting friendlies is really stretching it imo. Although strangely I wouldn’t say that about international friendlies :greengrin

[Keith_M]

I'm happy to applaud Ronaldo's scoring record... but still deny him the all-time great honour ahead of Benny Brazil.

Ronaldo, in his whole career, never scored a hat-trick against Celtc.



Benny did (https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/ally-benny-brazil-hibs-unlikely-hat-trick-hero-1514359).


:na na:

[jacomo]

Try nipping down to Brasil and telling people Pele did not score over a thousand goals:https://youtu.be/HcitzjlbQZw


I know Brazilians who will tell you the 1,000 figure is a fable.

[superfurryhibby]

My old man has been watching for about 80 years and played a bit himself.

He reckons Pele, Puskas and Di Stefano as the best 3 ever.

He puts Best, Messi, Maradona and Ronaldo all just below.

He's not a Hibs fan but he has an honourable mention for Gordon Smith. Reckons if he played in Spain or Italy at the time he could have been considered up there.

TBF if the European cup had been held from around 1947 then Gordon Smith might well have been a multiple winner. By 1955 Hibs were past their best and Smith was into the veteran stage in of his career. I would say he was one of the leading players in world football in his heyday, despite several serious career threatening injuries.

[heretoday]

I say this fellow Metthews has the ball quite literally tied to his foot.......

[A Hi-Bee]

Easy question to answer - Pele
:thumbsup:

[Greenbeard]

If this thread was "Greatest Player of all time - as thought by the player himself" then there is a player about to leave St Gallen who would be right up there.
(The knife goes in again, with no apology Seveno.)

[Since90+2]

How old you are dictates the answer it seems.

[Bangkok Hibby]

How old you are dictates the answer it seems.

Of course it does. There can be no comparison between the eras that definitively answers the question. For me its George Best but I'm perfectly prepared to accept those who say Di Stefano

[660]

Diego the greatest.

https://twitter.com/GrizzKhan/status/1332316293643563009

mEsSi iS fOuLeD jUsT aS mUcH aS mArAdONA

[AgentDaleCooper]

Can we not agree that ronaldo scored the most goal in competitive matches?

[Since90+2]

Can we not agree that ronaldo scored the most goal in competitive matches?

Would be the most sensible way to put it.

[MWHIBBIES]

Diego the greatest.

https://twitter.com/GrizzKhan/status/1332316293643563009

mEsSi iS fOuLeD jUsT aS mUcH aS mArAdONA

Maradona wasn't fouled enough to get away with scoring less than half of Messis goals. An extra 400 goals or the guy who got fouled a bit more? Hard choice.

[Magpie]

I think Messi is the best player I have ever seen, although it does not make him the best player ever, nobody can say that, it will only ever be an opinion.

I agree, the best for me too.

[calumhibee1]

Diego the greatest.

https://twitter.com/GrizzKhan/status/1332316293643563009

mEsSi iS fOuLeD jUsT aS mUcH aS mArAdONA

I would be willing to bet every penny I have that Messi has been fouled a hell of a lot more than Maradona was.

https://youtu.be/KJH-UDa6G8A

[calumhibee1]

Maradona wasn't fouled enough to get away with scoring less than half of Messis goals. An extra 400 goals or the guy who got fouled a bit more? Hard choice.

Maradona also never managed to even get into the top 3 of the ballon d’or. Ever.

Messi has won it 6 times and been in the top 3 12 of the last 13 years.

[Since90+2]

If the personalities of Messi and Ronaldo were switched do people think Ronaldo would be regarded as the best ever?

IMO he's a more complete footballer. He's two footed, he's great in the air and he's now the highest goalscorer of all time having played in 3 of the top leagues in the world, scored over 100 international goals and won an international trophy.

[calumhibee1]

If the personalities of Messi and Ronaldo were switched do people think Ronaldo would be regarded as the best ever?

IMO he's a more complete footballer. He's two footed, he's great in the air and he's now the highest goalscorer of all time having played in 3 of the top leagues in the world, scored over 100 international goals and won an international trophy.

I think it would probably be a closer run thing. I reckon generally speaking people prefer Messi over Ronaldo the majority of the time, me included.

I love Ronaldo but I know there’s a lot of people who can’t stomach him and I’d suggest it does cloud there judgement. I actually like his arrogance.

There’s next to nothing between them imo, I think Messi just edges it with his passing, vision and dribbling ability to go along with his goal scoring record.

Ronaldo has to be applauded though as I don’t think he has anything like the natural ability of Messi. He’s put in an outrageous amount of work to become the player he is/was. The two best of all time by a mile imo.

[660]

Maradona also never managed to even get into the top 3 of the ballon d’or. Ever.

Messi has won it 6 times and been in the top 3 12 of the last 13 years.

I assume you think Michael Owen was better than Maradona

I think Messi would have struggled to win it in the 80s too to be honest.

[calumhibee1]

I assume you think Michael Owen was better than Maradona

I think Messi would have struggled to win it in the 80s too to be honest.

Nope. The odd ballon d’or of a difference and I can see where it comes down to personal preference. As such I wouldn’t say Michael Owen is better.

6 ballon d’ors of a difference and finishing higher than Maradona ever managed 12 times is a bit more emphatic. As is scoring 719 goals to Maradona’s 346. And 25 major honours to 10.

[660]

Nope. The odd ballon d’or of a difference and I can see where it comes down to personal preference. As such I wouldn’t say Michael Owen is better.

6 ballon d’ors of a difference and finishing higher than Maradona ever managed 12 times is a bit more emphatic. As is scoring 719 goals to Maradona’s 346. And 25 major honours to 10.

It really is odd that Maradona never won a Ballon D’or or, as it used to be known until the mid 90s, the European Football Player of the Year. I wonder why.

[calumhibee1]

It really is odd that Maradona never won a Ballon D’or or, as it used to be known until the mid 90s, the European Football Player of the Year. I wonder why.

I didn’t realise that :greengrin every days a school day.

Even forgetting Ballon D’ors, Messi blows Maradona out the water in every statistical measure whether it’s team honours, goals, assists or games played for longevity.

Anyway, it’s all been covered previously on this thread. I only revived it because I thought Ronaldo becoming the highest goal scorer in history was relevant to it. :aok:

[Hakim Sar]

Ronaldo has actually won 2 international tournaments.

[TrinityHibs]

I didn’t realise that :greengrin every days a school day.

Even forgetting Ballon D’ors, Messi blows Maradona out the water in every statistical measure whether it’s team honours, goals, assists or games played for longevity.

Anyway, it’s all been covered previously on this thread. I only revived it because I thought Ronaldo becoming the highest goal scorer in history was relevant to it. :aok:

See those statistical measures do they include or exclude World Cups?

[May21/05/216]

Maradona

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

[jgl07]

Where is George Best?
Pissed and slumped at the back of the bar.

[my left peg]

Diego


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hibiza]

Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, Cruyff, Tortalano, Puskas, Messi..in that order.

Joe , joe,super joe

[Jones28]

I’d like to see a player of the decade from all the decades you’ve been alive.

So I was born in 1993.

90’s probably Ronaldo? Not sure, Beckham possibly?

2000’s could be Ronaldinho, one of the great invincible Arsenal players, Derek Riordan, Beckham again, Rooney possibly, Owen perhaps,.

2010’s Messi

2020’s Ronaldo for hitting that goal tally but tbh there’s not much difference between him and Messi for the 2010’s.

I think we will be looking at Haaland in the same way in 10-15 years time.

[calumhibee1]

See those statistical measures do they include or exclude World Cups?

1 solitary title/accomplishment that Maradona holds over Messi.

1 UEFA Cup to 4 Champions Leagues

3 league titles to 10 league titles

346 first team goals to 719 and counting first team goals

Speaks volumes really.

[calumhibee1]

I’d like to see a player of the decade from all the decades you’ve been alive.

So I was born in 1993.

90’s probably Ronaldo? Not sure, Beckham possibly?

2000’s could be Ronaldinho, one of the great invincible Arsenal players, Derek Riordan, Beckham again, Rooney possibly, Owen perhaps,.

2010’s Messi

2020’s Ronaldo for hitting that goal tally but tbh there’s not much difference between him and Messi for the 2010’s.

I think we will be looking at Haaland in the same way in 10-15 years time.

I’m born 1990.

I’d go for

90s - Ronaldo
00s - Zidane
10s - Messi
20s so far - Lewandowski

[my left peg]

I’d like to see a player of the decade from all the decades you’ve been alive.

So I was born in 1993.

90’s probably Ronaldo? Not sure, Beckham possibly?

2000’s could be Ronaldinho, one of the great invincible Arsenal players, Derek Riordan, Beckham again, Rooney possibly, Owen perhaps,.

2010’s Messi

2020’s Ronaldo for hitting that goal tally but tbh there’s not much difference between him and Messi for the 2010’s.

I think we will be looking at Haaland in the same way in 10-15 years time.

Oh that’s good
I was born in 67
60s Eusebio
70s Beckenbauer
80s Maradona
90s Maldini
00s Ronaldinho
10s Messi
20s De Bruyne

It’s impossible really as Best ,Pele ,Cruyff Ronaldo,Pirlo ,Baressi,Dalgleish are my hero’s as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hibs#1]

I’d like to see a player of the decade from all the decades you’ve been alive.

So I was born in 1993.

90’s probably Ronaldo? Not sure, Beckham possibly?

2000’s could be Ronaldinho, one of the great invincible Arsenal players, Derek Riordan, Beckham again, Rooney possibly, Owen perhaps,.

2010’s Messi

2020’s Ronaldo for hitting that goal tally but tbh there’s not much difference between him and Messi for the 2010’s.

I think we will be looking at Haaland in the same way in 10-15 years time.


90s-Ronaldo.
00s-Ronaldinho.
10s-Messi.
20s-Haaland.(more of a prediction)

[Jones28]

I’m born 1990.

I’d go for

90s - Ronaldo
00s - Zidane
10s - Messi
20s so far - Lewandowski

I forgot about Zidane, holy ****

[calumhibee1]

I forgot about Zidane, holy ****

:greengrin

Ronaldinho was the first to come into my mind to be fair. Not necessarily the best of the decade but by a country mile my favourite ever player.

[Greenbeard]

I forgot about Zidane, holy ****
I was born in the 50s. I just forget.

[FilipinoHibs]

Pele's friendlies in 1958, opponents and goals.

https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2021/01/24/600caeca22601d3a148b462b.html

[PatHead]

Messi now got his major trophy. Argentina won the Copa America last night.
Messi named player of the tournament having scored 4 goals.

[Ray_]

I would be willing to bet every penny I have that Messi has been fouled a hell of a lot more than Maradona was.

https://youtu.be/KJH-UDa6G8A

I would also suggest that many challenges that were considered legit when Maradona was playing would be outlawed now, so I don't really know what the purpose of those stats are?

[eastterrace]

I would also suggest that many challenges that were considered legit when Maradona was playing would be outlawed now, so I don't really know what the purpose of those stats are?
Plus maradona could ride a tackle with his balance, Best player ever. Okay messi won more titles but maybe that’s cause he had better players around him.

[zero-seven]

Plus maradona could ride a tackle with his balance, Best player ever. Okay messi won more titles but maybe that’s cause he had better players around him.


agree with this, he brought the extraordinary out of ordinary players. Messi and Ronaldo do the same , but Maradona had no superstars around him.

any way. where is Benny Brazil in this list ?

[The Spaceman]

Lionel Messi.

The guy looks a bit of a stick-on to win a seventh Ballon D’Or having finally dragged Argentina to a major honour (most MOTM, goals and assists all tournament). Crazy.

A World Cup medal for Messi would end the debate across the entire spectrum. Regardless, the 2008-2012 (struggled to narrow that down) levels of his play are the greatest peak we have ever seen in the game.

[The Spaceman]

agree with this, he brought the extraordinary out of ordinary players. Messi and Ronaldo do the same , but Maradona had no superstars around him.

any way. where is Benny Brazil in this list ?

I would argue that the quality of opposition is also vastly superior. So whilst Messi had more superstars around him, so do the opposition.

[Crunchie]

Lionel Messi.

The guy looks a bit of a stick-on to win a seventh Ballon D’Or having finally dragged Argentina to a major honour (most MOTM, goals and assists all tournament). Crazy.

A World Cup medal for Messi would end the debate across the entire spectrum. Regardless, the 2008-2012 (struggled to narrow that down) levels of his play are the greatest peak we have ever seen in the game.
Because it's the greatest you've seen doesn't make it fact and would only end the debate in your head. Comparing players from different eras is an impossible task but having seen Maradona, Cruyff and our own Georgie to name a few I don't agree with you at all.
You could probably make a list of hundreds if you went back far enough.

[calumhibee1]

I would argue that the quality of opposition is also vastly superior. So whilst Messi had more superstars around him, so do the opposition.

It is.

Real Madrid have had an incredible team for near enough the whole time Messi has played for Barcelona and vice versa with Ronaldo at Real.

The Barcelona and Real Madrid teams of the last decade or so are arguably the two greatest sides football has ever seen.

[wookie70]

Plus maradona could ride a tackle with his balance, Best player ever. Okay messi won more titles but maybe that’s cause he had better players around him.

Messi is far better at rolling after being fouled. Here are some of the tackles Maradonna faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvzAxgoVEk&ab_channel=GioCooch). For the likes of George Best multiply the force by 2 and then add in that lots were from behind with no likelihood that the player committing the foul would be red carded.

[Keith_M]

Scott Allan

[blackpoolhibs]

Messi is far better at rolling after being fouled. Here are some of the tackles Maradonna faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvzAxgoVEk&ab_channel=GioCooch). For the likes of George Best multiply the force by 2 and then add in that lots were from behind with no likelihood that the player committing the foul would be red carded.

A lot of those tackles were just assaults, he was a superb player and played when you could virtually scythe players down not even looking to get the ball without any worry of getting booked never mind sent off.

I still say Messi is the best i've seen in my lifetime, but i couldn't imagine him taking the stick Maradona did.

[wookie70]

A lot of those tackles were just assaults, he was a superb player and played when you could virtually scythe players down not even looking to get the ball without any worry of getting booked never mind sent off.

I still say Messi is the best i've seen in my lifetime, but i couldn't imagine him taking the stick Maradona did.

Messi would roll out of the stadium of he took the punishment Maradonna did and would be outside the city with some of the tackles Best/Pele got

[Since90+2]

Messi/Ronaldo are 1 and 2. Don't really think they can be separated and you can swap places between the 2.

Pele, Maradona, Zidane and Xaxi in no particular order after them.

[Unseen work]

I’m just a huge fan of Ronaldo. There’s something about the fact he has went and done it in all of the top leagues that I really like.

I actually think a lot of people overly criticise him for what they think he’s like.

[calumhibee1]

Bobby Madden’s Instagram post reminded me of this thread.. from players apparently running around 7.5km a game in the 70s we’ve now got referees running 10.5km a game these days just to keep up with the players who are running a hell of a lot more. And yet the physical differences are apparently being overplayed :greengrin

Following on from this again, from 7.5km a game in the 70s, Kalvin Phillips covered over 15km in a game at the Euros. And yet weve still got posters claiming that the physical differences are non existent. :faf:

[Since90+2]

Following on from this again, from 7.5km a game in the 70s, Kalvin Phillips covered over 15km in a game at the Euros. And yet weve still got posters claiming that the physical differences are non existent. :faf:

Kalvin Phillips is a freak of nature. Unbelievably fit and a great player too. He'll end up at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

[calumhibee1]

Kalvin Phillips is a freak of nature. Unbelievably fit and a great player too. He'll end up at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

Yeah, he looks a very decent player.

[PH91]

Following on from this again, from 7.5km a game in the 70s, Kalvin Phillips covered over 15km in a game at the Euros. And yet weve still got posters claiming that the physical differences are non existent. :faf:

What is your point? Players are fitter now due to more advanced training, better diets, lifestyle etc. If the great players of the past were playing today they would be just as fit as the great players of today.

[calumhibee1]

What is your point? Players are fitter now due to more advanced training, better diets, lifestyle etc. If the great players of the past were playing today they would be just as fit as the great players of today.

But they weren’t playing today and they’re not as fit as the great players of today.

Claiming they ‘would have been’ is starting to compare a mythical version of the players of yesteryear that never even existed.

Do players nowadays have huge advantages over players of old? Absolutely.

Have they used these advantages to make them absolutely streets ahead of players of old? Absolutely.

[Andy74]

But they weren’t playing today and they’re not as fit as the great players of today.

Claiming they ‘would have been’ is starting to compare a mythical version of the players of yesteryear that never even existed.

Do players nowadays have huge advantages over players of old? Absolutely.

Have they used these advantages to make them absolutely streets ahead of players of old? Absolutely.

I think what folk have been trying to say to you for a while is that we haven’t evolved into superfit beings.

Give Pele a couple of weeks per season and he’d have been fine.

He had pretty extreme athletic ability anyway that would have seen him be perfectly fine in the modern game.

[Since452]

If not for injuries then Ronaldo 09

[Pretty Boy]

You're really comparing oranges with apples when comparing different eras.

My Grandad insists Gordon Smith was and is the greatest player Scotland has ever produced. I watch footage of Hibs in the 50s on YouTube and other platforms and the games look like something from primary school, lots of what looks like kick and chase. It's nothing like the modern game. Likewise when watching the older clips from the Euros throughout the tournament all I could think was how slow everything looked. Even the games from the late 80s and early 90s looked ancient.

You can't compare players playing in that environment to players playing today. If you transported Pele to the modern game with the sports science, training, diet etc players have now then he'd still be a star. Equally it's daft to say Messi and Ronaldo wouldn't have coped in the 1970s. Their natural skill and talent would still shine through and they would be accustomed to the kinds of assaults that just don't exists any more. I daresay Maradona would have been a diver, roller and screamer if he played today and that behaviour was of benefit to him.

[calumhibee1]

I think what folk have been trying to say to you for a while is that we haven’t evolved into superfit beings.

Give Pele a couple of weeks per season and he’d have been fine.

He had pretty extreme athletic ability anyway that would have seen him be perfectly fine in the modern game.

But in reality, we have.

We’ve got referees running 33% further than the players did in the 70s. We’ve got players running over 100% more.

The players HAVE evolved into super fit species in comparison to players in the 70s.

[Pretty Boy]

But in reality, we have.

We’ve got referees running 33% further than the players did in the 70s. We’ve got players running over 100% more.

The players HAVE evolved into super fit species in comparison to players in the 70s.

Humans haven't really evolved though. It's the tech, methods and training available to them that has.

The marathon world record in 1970 was set by Ron Hill, a great athlete who died recently. His time was 2.09.28. The current record is held by Eliud Kipchoge, set in 2018. A time of 2.01.39.

On an evolutionary level as a physical being Kipchoge isn't any different from Hill (beyond the genetic differences that exist between East Africans and Europeans). He may well be naturally talented but he also has carbon plated shoes, electrolyte gels, a pad on his arm that monitors his glucose levels, sweat wicking clothing, dieticians etc etc. Transport him to 1970 with the tech available there and he couldn't run 2.01 with all the natural talent in the world. Transport Hill to today with all the technological advances and he would run significantly better than 2.09.

The improvement is evolution of the method rather than the being.

[Peevemor]

Humans haven't really evolved though. It's the tech, methods and training available to them that has.

The marathon world record in 1970 was set by Ron Hill, a great athlete who died recently. His time was 2.09.28. The current record is held by Eliud Kipchoge, set in 2018. A time of 2.01.39.

On an evolutionary level as a physical being Kipchoge isn't any different from Hill (beyond the genetic differences that exist between East Africans and Europeans). He may well be naturally talented but he also has carbon plated shoes, electrolyte gels, a pad on his arm that monitors his glucose levels, sweat wicking clothing, dieticians etc etc. Transport him to 1970 with the tech available there and he couldn't run 2.01 with all the natural talent in the world. Transport Hill to today with all the technological advances and he would run significantly better than 2.09.

The improvement is evolution of the method rather than the being.I think we can agree that the performance level of sports people has evolved.

[calumhibee1]

Humans haven't really evolved though. It's the tech, methods and training available to them that has.

The marathon world record in 1970 was set by Ron Hill, a great athlete who died recently. His time was 2.09.28. The current record is held by Eliud Kipchoge, set in 2018. A time of 2.01.39.

On an evolutionary level as a physical being Kipchoge isn't any different from Hill (beyond the genetic differences that exist between East Africans and Europeans). He may well be naturally talented but he also has carbon plated shoes, electrolyte gels, a pad on his arm that monitors his glucose levels, sweat wicking clothing, dieticians etc etc. Transport him to 1970 with the tech available there and he couldn't run 2.01 with all the natural talent in the world. Transport Hill to today with all the technological advances and he would run significantly better than 2.09.

The improvement is evolution of the method rather than the being.

And the players have taken the tech, methods etc to evolve into superfit footballers. It’s really semantics as to whether we want to declare the players have ‘evolved’ or not. Point of the matter is that these players have used these advances to their advtantage.

Nobody is doubting the advantages that the players have. Nobody is questioning whether Pele or maradona could have been as fit or as strong or powerful as players today. They weren’t though. So you’re not comparing Pele or Maradona anymore when you start doing it. You’re comparing a completely fictional player.

Usain Bolt is the fastest man to have ever lived. That fact doesn’t change because guys from the 70s didn’t have the same advantages he does. Same logic applies here.

Rob Jones is probably the best player in the air that ive seen for Hibs. It would be silly to start claiming he’s not and Paul Hanlon is better and then start comparing a 6ft7 version of Paul Hanlon as proof of that.

[Pretty Boy]

I think we can agree that the performance level of sports people has evolved.

Of course but that's not human evolution. Humans now aren't superfit because of a distinct physical evolution. If anything a higher percentage of the population is less fit then generations gone as our lifestyle becomes increasingly sedentary.

Something like a throughbred horse has been selectively bred, sometimes partially inbred, to pass on only the most desirable characteristics. Humans have forced evolution in that animal and we have evidence of it through lighter skeletons and larger hearts for 2 things. That doesn't exist to anything like the same extent in humans. If you stood Maradona and Messi next to each other at the same age at the base level they are the same. There will be physical differences but no notable evolutionary difference.

The point being made is that whilst it's obvious you can't compare footballers across generations because of the myriad of differences that involves, it should also be obvious that footballers now aren't evolutionary freaks who have changed beyond all recognition in a single generation.

It's why these arguments are ultimately pointless because you can't boil things down to natural talent. There are far too many variable at play to ever make a fair comparison. Messi and Ronaldo are quite obviously the 2 best players to ever play the game but that's not because of physical evolution or simply natural talent. It's because of a huge range of advantages they had over those who have went before and in 10 or 20 years time humans still won't have evolved much but there will be players who are streets ahead of those 2.

[Peevemor]

Of course but that's not human evolution. Humans now aren't superfit because of a distinct physical evolution. If anything a higher percentage of the population is less fit then generations gone as our lifestyle becomes increasingly sedentary.

Something like a throughbred horse has been selectively bred, sometimes partially inbred, to pass on only the most desirable characteristics. Humans have forced evolution in that animal and we have evidence of it through lighter skeletons and larger hearts for 2 things. That doesn't exist to anything like the same extent in humans. If you stood Maradona and Messi next to each other at the same age at the base level they are the same. There will be physical differences but no notable evolutionary difference.

The point being made is that whilst it's obvious you can't compare footballers across generations because of the myriad of differences that involves, it should also be obvious that footballers now aren't evolutionary freaks who have changed beyond all recognition in a single generation.

It's why these arguments are ultimately pointless because you can't boil things down to natural talent. There are far too many variable at play to ever make a fair comparison. Messi and Ronaldo are quite obviously the 2 best players to ever play the game but that's not because of physical evolution or simply natural talent. It's because of a huge range of advantages they had over those who have went before and in 10 or 20 years time humans still won't have evolved much but there will be players who are streets ahead of those 2.I know, but whether it's the method/science that's evolved or the people concerned, the result is the same.

It doesn't just apply to sport either but to other disciplines including music.

[calumhibee1]

I know, but whether it's the method/science that's evolved or the people concerned, the result is the same.

It doesn't just apply to sport either but to other disciplines including music.

:agree:

[BILLYHIBS]

And the players have taken the tech, methods etc to evolve into superfit footballers. It’s really semantics as to whether we want to declare the players have ‘evolved’ or not. Point of the matter is that these players have used these advances to their advtantage.

Nobody is doubting the advantages that the players have. Nobody is questioning whether Pele or maradona could have been as fit or as strong or powerful as players today. They weren’t though. So you’re not comparing Pele or Maradona anymore when you start doing it. You’re comparing a completely fictional player.

Usain Bolt is the fastest man to have ever lived. That fact doesn’t change because guys from the 70s didn’t have the same advantages he does. Same logic applies here.

Rob Jones is probably the best player in the air that ive seen for Hibs. It would be silly to start claiming he’s not and Paul Hanlon is better and then start comparing a 6ft7 version of Paul Hanlon as proof of that.

Alan Gordon is the best player in the air to have played for HIBS but like Pele both were before your time so that rules both of them out :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

I know, but whether it's the method/science that's evolved or the people concerned, the result is the same.

It doesn't just apply to sport either but to other disciplines including music.

The point I was replying to was that humans had evolved into superfit beings.

That's a fundamentally different argument to the effects of method evolving. The former suggests humans now have a natural advantage over their predecessors which is demonstratably false. The latter makes broad comparisons between eras possible if obviously imperfect.

[Peevemor]

The point I was replying to was that humans had evolved into superfit beings.

That's a fundamentally different argument to the effects of method evolving. The former suggests humans now have a natural advantage over their predecessors which is demonstratably false. The latter makes broad comparisons between eras possible if obviously imperfect.I think there's more to it than just method & science though - there are also the effects of technique improving from generation to generation and, for similar reasons, better coaches.

[Since90+2]

The point I was replying to was that humans had evolved into superfit beings.

That's a fundamentally different argument to the effects of method evolving. The former suggests humans now have a natural advantage over their predecessors which is demonstratably false. The latter makes broad comparisons between eras possible if obviously imperfect.

Humans have certainly naturally evolved to become bigger and stronger.

If you look at Boxing in the 1950s Rocky Marciano was the undefeated heavyweight champion who never lost in 49 fights. He was 13.5 stone. If you compare him to modern day heavyweights he'd be obliterated very quickly against guys 6ft 7 / 6ft 8 and weighing around 18 stone.

[LeithMike]

Following on from this again, from 7.5km a game in the 70s, Kalvin Phillips covered over 15km in a game at the Euros. And yet weve still got posters claiming that the physical differences are non existent. :faf:Its not necessarily or solely a fitness issue though. Football tactics have changed a lot. Football used to be far more compartmentalised with forwards attacking and defenders defending. In the modern game forwards do a lot more defending than previously and defenders do a lot more attacking. Its just the way the game has gone and it doesnt mean that players of old couldnt run as much - they just werent expected to do it.

My favourite player would still be Zico from the Brazil 82 side but for me Maradona was on a different level to everyone who played the game during his time and I dont think anyone has dominated a world cup like he has. And the way he could still perform with all the drugs he was taking was quite remarkable.

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[Since90+2]

Its not necessarily or solely a fitness issue though. Football tactics have changed a lot. Football used to be far more compartmentalised with forwards attacking and defenders defending. In the modern game forwards do a lot more defending than previously and defenders do a lot more attacking. Its just the way the game has gone and it doesnt mean that players of old couldnt run as much - they just werent expected to do it.

My favourite player would still be Zico from the Brazil 82 side but for me Maradona was on a different level to everyone who played the game during his time and I dont think anyone has dominated a world cup like he has. And the way he could still perform with all the drugs he was taking was quite remarkable.

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I think what separates Messi from Maradona is the longevity. Messi has effectively been the best player in the world for the last 15 years. The dedication to achieve that is beyond anything that Maradona would be capable of.

Whether it was drugs, alcohol or anything else that stopped Maradona it doesn't really matter. Ultimately he was never able to maintain the high standard for such a long time that Messi has.

[LeithMike]

I think what separates Messi from Maradona is the longevity. Messi has effectively been the best player in the world for the last 15 years. The dedication to achieve that is beyond anything that Maradona would be capable of.

Whether it was drugs, alcohol or anything else that stopped Maradona it doesn't really matter. Ultimately he was never able to maintain the high standard for such a long time that Messi has.That's absolutely true and it really depends what you want to measure it by. If people value different things then you get an array of answers. Longevity definitely veers to Messi and Ronaldo. For a period of 3-4 years though Maradona was larger than life and completely unparallelled. Perhaps due to that shorter period his star shone a little brighter for me.

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[Since90+2]

That's absolutely true and it really depends what you want to measure it by. If people value different things then you get an array of answers. Longevity definitely veers to Messi and Ronaldo. For a period of 3-4 years though Maradona was larger than life and completely unparallelled. Perhaps due to that shorter period his star shone a little brighter for me.

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Was Maradona really unparalleled though?

Messi scored 73 goals in a single season. He scored 133 goals in 2 seasons. That was playing in the best league in the world at the time and in the Champions League.

Maradona in his entire 7 seasons at Napoli only got 115.

[Pretty Boy]

Humans have certainly naturally evolved to become bigger and stronger.

If you look at Boxing in the 1950s Rocky Marciano was the undefeated heavyweight champion who never lost in 49 fights. He was 13.5 stone. If you compare him to modern day heavyweights he'd be obliterated very quickly against guys 6ft 7 / 6ft 8 and weighing around 18 stone.

We haven't. The below article explains better than I can why the increase in average human height and mass is really nothing to do with evolution:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-are-we-getting-taller/

In terms of boxing when championship fight were fought over 15 rounds there was arguably a competive advantage to being a bit lighter. Now the competitive advantage comes from being bigger. Rugby is another example. There was an article before the last World Cup that pointed out the weight of an average back in 2019 was more than a forward in 1991. It would be almost impossible for that to have occurred because of evolution in such a short time span and even more impossible that it only occurred in rugby playing humans. The difference is down to diet, training and exploiting a competitive edge. In 1991 it made sense for a back to be smaller and more lithe. By 2019 strength and mass were the desirable characteristics. There was no natural selection that took place that killed off 13 stone full backs, rugby coaches, nutritionists and players changed the way they ate and trained to change their body shape. That's not evolution.

[J-C]

Humans have certainly naturally evolved to become bigger and stronger.

If you look at Boxing in the 1950s Rocky Marciano was the undefeated heavyweight champion who never lost in 49 fights. He was 13.5 stone. If you compare him to modern day heavyweights he'd be obliterated very quickly against guys 6ft 7 / 6ft 8 and weighing around 18 stone.


Marciano was 5ft 10in and beat Joe Lewis for the tittle, Lewis was 6ft2in and around 15 stones, Marciano was really just a big middleweight who had fists of stone and a rock hard jaw to go with it.

[LeithMike]

Was Maradona really unparalleled though?

Messi scored 73 goals in a single season. He scored 133 goals in 2 seasons. That was playing in the best league in the world at the time and in the Champions League.

Maradona in his entire 7 seasons at Napoli only got 115.The Spanish league doesnt have great depth though does it. How often have Barcelona finished out the top 4?! Maradona took Napoli from fighting relegation to champions. He also didn't have Xavi and Iniesta feeding him and pretty much had to do it on his own.

The Italian league has always been one of the toughest to score in due to the defensive nature of the football.

If people want to judge purely on stats that is fine but they never reveal the true context. If you are looking for the best footballer then it is about more than statistics and success. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it's great that we all appreciate different things.

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[Lancs Harp]

Roy Race. Thread closed.

[Pretty Boy]

Roy Race. Thread closed.

English bias.

He couldn't lace Hamish Balfour's boots.

[Lancs Harp]

English bias.

He couldn't lace Hamish Balfour's boots.

I had a Melchester Rovers subutteo team Hamish actualy got smashed by Claudio Gentile in a match against Italy. Bostik job. Took a couple of hours to set. Fully recovered went on to star in Melchesters 77-0 win against Hearts in their new years day 1973 invitaional memorial match. Race scored 55 times.

[bigwheel]

Roy Race. Thread closed.

Always felt Blackie Gray’s unheralded work made him the player he was……


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[MWHIBBIES]

The Spanish league doesnt have great depth though does it. How often have Barcelona finished out the top 4?! Maradona took Napoli from fighting relegation to champions. He also didn't have Xavi and Iniesta feeding him and pretty much had to do it on his own.

The Italian league has always been one of the toughest to score in due to the defensive nature of the football.

If people want to judge purely on stats that is fine but they never reveal the true context. If you are looking for the best footballer then it is about more than statistics and success. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it's great that we all appreciate different things.

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Looked at how Spanish sides have dominated in Europe, its definitely not a weak league. Atletico and Real are better than anyone Maradona played regularly against. Messi has 58 goals against those 2. Xavi left Barcelona 6 years ago. Since then Messi has scored over 260 goals.

Xavi and Iniesta never played with him for Argentina, where he is their top scorer and assister ever.

It's fine to appreciate different things, but there is just no argument for Maradona over Messi other than personal preference. Messi wins in every way.

[calumhibee1]

Looked at how Spanish sides have dominated in Europe, its definitely not a weak league. Atletico and Real are better than anyone Maradona played regularly against. Messi has 58 goals against those 2. Xavi left Barcelona 6 years ago. Since then Messi has scored over 260 goals.

Xavi and Iniesta never played with him for Argentina, where he is their top scorer and assister ever.

It's fine to appreciate different things, but there is just no argument for Maradona over Messi other than personal preference. Messi wins in every way.

:agree:

Since Messi broke through the Champions League has been won 7 times in 15 seasons by Spanish teams. English teams have won 4. Italians and Germans have won 2 each.

Since Messi broke through the Europa League has been won 9 times out of 15 by Spanish teams. English teams have won 3. Italians and Germans have won none.

30 European titles up for grabs throughout the time Messi has been playing. 16 of them won by 5 different Spanish teams. 7 of them won by English teams.

The idea that the Spanish league doesn’t have any sort of depth in quality really doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. It’s a myth peddled by the fans of EPL clubs who believe no other league is worthy.

The ‘other teams’ in Spain have won 9 European trophies throughout Messi’s career. Over Messi’s career it has been the best league in the world, in no small part due to Messi and Ronaldo.

[Block]

1, Easily - Maradona

2, Franz Beckenbauer

3, George Best

Many other extremely talented players but they three are my top three.

[Lancs Harp]

1, Easily - Maradona

2, Franz Beckenbauer

3, George Best

Many other extremely talented players but they three are my top three.

All about opinions and is very subjecive. From the same era i would always put Johan Cruyff above Beckanbauer. Not knocking Franz who was clearly a fantastic player.

[hibsbollah]

It’s Maradona.

[LeithMike]

Looked at how Spanish sides have dominated in Europe, its definitely not a weak league. Atletico and Real are better than anyone Maradona played regularly against. Messi has 58 goals against those 2. Xavi left Barcelona 6 years ago. Since then Messi has scored over 260 goals.

Xavi and Iniesta never played with him for Argentina, where he is their top scorer and assister ever.

It's fine to appreciate different things, but there is just no argument for Maradona over Messi other than personal preference. Messi wins in every way.By your logic, Lewis Hamilton is a far better driver than Ayrton Senna. Football is not a science, there is artistry that can't be quantified.

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[Onceinawhile]

1, Easily - Maradona

2, Franz Beckenbauer

3, George Best

Many other extremely talented players but they three are my top three.

What was it about the 80s that made you stop watching football?

[ClermistonGreen]

Wilson

Duncan

Davis

[Key West]

Messi, a true genius.

[Block]

All about opinions and is very subjecive. From the same era i would always put Johan Cruyff above Beckanbauer. Not knocking Franz who was clearly a fantastic player.

Totally. Cruyff was sublime and very talented and of course its opinions which are formed by individual choice, but I'll stick with my top three, you nearly had me with Cruyff though, excellent player.

:aok:

[Block]

What was it about the 80s that made you stop watching football?

Bertie Auld and Wullie Jamieson.

:greengrin

[MWHIBBIES]

By your logic, Lewis Hamilton is a far better driver than Ayrton Senna. Football is not a science, there is artistry that can't be quantified.

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No, because cars are vital in F1. Messi and Maradona both have just 2 legs. They're on a level playing field and one is miles ahead of the other in every capacity

[Since90+2]

:agree:

Since Messi broke through the Champions League has been won 7 times in 15 seasons by Spanish teams. English teams have won 4. Italians and Germans have won 2 each.

Since Messi broke through the Europa League has been won 9 times out of 15 by Spanish teams. English teams have won 3. Italians and Germans have won none.

30 European titles up for grabs throughout the time Messi has been playing. 16 of them won by 5 different Spanish teams. 7 of them won by English teams.

The idea that the Spanish league doesn’t have any sort of depth in quality really doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. It’s a myth peddled by the fans of EPL clubs who believe no other league is worthy.

The ‘other teams’ in Spain have won 9 European trophies throughout Messi’s career. Over Messi’s career it has been the best league in the world, in no small part due to Messi and Ronaldo.

Yip. Pretty much blows away the theory that Messi wasn't competing against the same standard as Maradona, he wasn't, it was far higher.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

You're really comparing oranges with apples when comparing different eras.

My Grandad insists Gordon Smith was and is the greatest player Scotland has ever produced. I watch footage of Hibs in the 50s on YouTube and other platforms and the games look like something from primary school, lots of what looks like kick and chase. It's nothing like the modern game. Likewise when watching the older clips from the Euros throughout the tournament all I could think was how slow everything looked. Even the games from the late 80s and early 90s looked ancient.

You can't compare players playing in that environment to players playing today. If you transported Pele to the modern game with the sports science, training, diet etc players have now then he'd still be a star. Equally it's daft to say Messi and Ronaldo wouldn't have coped in the 1970s. Their natural skill and talent would still shine through and they would be accustomed to the kinds of assaults that just don't exists any more. I daresay Maradona would have been a diver, roller and screamer if he played today and that behaviour was of benefit to him.


I seem to remember Pele being transported back in time to play a game in the '40's, best player on the pitch, even with a rib injury! 😉

[DH1875]

For me I'd have Maradona ahead of Messi but 2 things really anoy me;

Maradona didn't drag Napoli from anywhere and he didn't win all these trophies there on his own. To say he was the only decent player at Napoli is ridiculous. They had players like Alemao, Ciro Ferrara and Careca for starters. Maradona understudy at Napoli was Gianfranco Zola, FFS.

The minute someone comes out with "the Spanish league has no depth to it". "The Spanish league has only 2 teams in it". "The Spanish league is a poor league". Is the minute I switch off because the person saying it clearly knows nothing about football.

All redundant of course as Cristiano is the best of all time.

[MWHIBBIES]

For me I'd have Maradona ahead of Messi but 2 things really anoy me;

Maradona didn't drag Napoli from anywhere and he didn't win all these trophies there on his own. To say he was the only decent player at Napoli is ridiculous. They had players like Alemao, Ciro Ferrara and Careca for starters. Maradona understudy at Napoli was Gianfranco Zola, FFS.

The minute someone comes out with "the Spanish league has no depth to it". "The Spanish league has only 2 teams in it". "The Spanish league is a poor league". Is the minute I switch off because the person saying it clearly knows nothing about football.

All redundant of course as Cristiano is the best of all time.
The Xavi Iniesta assisting him one is good too. Dani Alves assisted him more than Xavi. Suarez assisted him more than anyone. It's just a lazy statement, like the 2 you've mentioned

[BILLYHIBS]

Wilson

Duncan

Davis

Stanton

Madsen

McGraw

[hibsbollah]

For me I'd have Maradona ahead of Messi but 2 things really anoy me;

Maradona didn't drag Napoli from anywhere and he didn't win all these trophies there on his own. To say he was the only decent player at Napoli is ridiculous. They had players like Alemao, Ciro Ferrara and Careca for starters. Maradona understudy at Napoli was Gianfranco Zola, FFS.

The minute someone comes out with "the Spanish league has no depth to it". "The Spanish league has only 2 teams in it". "The Spanish league is a poor league". Is the minute I switch off because the person saying it clearly knows nothing about football.

All redundant of course as Cristiano is the best of all time.

Your second paragraph; First, Diego DID drag Napoli from nowhere. They were in relegation trouble repeatedly in the early 80s, Diego arrived in 84, and even when they did get close to the top three or four at various points in their history they would inevitably blow it and finish mid table. Southerners, losers, mocked by the establishment. What Maradona did was similar to Middlesbrough or Leicester becoming champions of England.

‘He didn’t win all those titles on his own’, well he sort of did. Ferrara was a solid international defender, I think Careca came the following season, but none of the rest of the Napoli team were anywhere near world class. Diego could have gone anywhere after leaving Barca, he was doing things on the pitch no one had ever seen before, his decision to sign for Napoli was the modern equivalent of Mbappe deciding to go to Leverkusen, or West Ham. The decision of a coked up radge not an entrepreneur wanting to maximise his trophy haul, it made no sense, and all the better for it.

There’s also the whole snobbery attached to the south of Italy by the north and the corruption favouring the big clubs, especially Juve, that’s been demonstrated and proven more than once. He was fighting a corrupt system, referees, and the most brutal hatchet men defenders in the world kicking six shades out of him. Napoli winning the title is equal to Montpellier winning ligue 1 or Leicester’s story but we can’t understand how difficult it was without an understanding how different Italian football is . (To be fair Hellas Verona winning it the year Diego arrived was up there as well, but it was a total one off, usually that wasn’t ‘allowed’)

[calumhibee1]

For me I'd have Maradona ahead of Messi but 2 things really anoy me;

Maradona didn't drag Napoli from anywhere and he didn't win all these trophies there on his own. To say he was the only decent player at Napoli is ridiculous. They had players like Alemao, Ciro Ferrara and Careca for starters. Maradona understudy at Napoli was Gianfranco Zola, FFS.

The minute someone comes out with "the Spanish league has no depth to it". "The Spanish league has only 2 teams in it". "The Spanish league is a poor league". Is the minute I switch off because the person saying it clearly knows nothing about football.

All redundant of course as Cristiano is the best of all time.

Agree massively with the Napoli part.

Careca scored 30 goals in 64 games for Brazil. He scored 73 in 164 for Napoli. He scored 5 goals in 5 games at the ‘86 WC ffs.

To just blatantly ignore these guys as if they were journeymen footballers that Maradona was hindered by is simply laughable.

They had plenty good players. As did the Argentina 86 team. There was no single handedly winning anything, there never is in football. To suggest one player has single handedly done anything does a total injustice to that players team mates.

[hibsbollah]

Agree massively with the Napoli part.

Careca scored 30 goals in 64 games for Brazil. He scored 73 in 164 for Napoli. He scored 5 goals in 5 games at the ‘86 WC ffs.

To just blatantly ignore these guys as if they were journeymen footballers that Maradona was hindered by is simply laughable.

They had plenty good players. As did the Argentina 86 team. There was no single handedly winning anything, there never is in football. To suggest one player has single handedly done anything does a total injustice to that players team mates.

I’ve noticed you love using the word ‘laughable’ when there’s an opinion you don’t like but can’t think of a way of arguing your case. How is it laughable? Look at the squads of Napolis competitors. The cream of Europe were playing in Italy at that time, it was where the money was, the place to play, like England today. Napoli should have been nowhere near the big northern clubs. (Was just checking and in série a’s team of the season surprised to see Souness was in midfield next to Platini at Juve, which just shows how good he actually was in world terms)

[calumhibee1]

I’ve noticed you love using the word ‘laughable’ when there’s an opinion you don’t like but can’t think of a way of arguing your case. How is it laughable? Look at the squads of Napolis competitors. The cream of Europe were playing in Italy at that time, it was where the money was, the place to play, like England today. Napoli should have been nowhere near the big northern clubs. (Was just checking and in série a’s team of the season surprised to see Souness was in midfield next to Platini at Juve, which just shows how good he actually was in world terms)

Have you just completely ignored the players that were pointed out that played for Napoli and their pedigree? That is my case. And on top of that, no player has ever single handedly won anything.

[hibsbollah]

Have you just completely ignored the players that were pointed out that played for Napoli and their pedigree? That is my case. And on top of that, no player has ever single handedly won anything.

No, I’ve already said, Ferrara was the best of them, and even he would struggle to get into the top five Italian clubs in centre defence.

Napoli had no business being a contender. That’s the consensus view, everything I’ve read by folk who know far more than you or I, say about the league at that time. If you’re going to go against the consensus, you need to do better than just say it’s ‘laughable’. Maybe actually have a look at the relative squads of the top five, which is the relevant info.

[Since90+2]

Even if Maradona did single handedly win Napoli the league, which is ridiculous to suggest it, but anyway, it was two titles they won, not a decade of domination.

That's in no way comparable to being the best player in the world for 15 years in a row whilst winning multiple league titles, Champions Leagues, breaking goalscoring records including 73 in a single season, winning multiple Ballon D'ors, and now an international tournament whilst being voted player of the tournament.

Maradona was obviously a fantastic player but there's very much a rose tinted view when it comes to him.

[hibsbollah]

Even if Maradona did single handedly win Napoli the league, which is ridiculous to suggest it, but anyway, it was two seasons.

That's in no way comparable to being the best player in the world for 15 years in a row whilst winning multiple league titles, Champions Leagues, breaking goalscoring records including 73 in a single season, winning multiple Ballon D'ors, and now an international tournament whilst being voted player of the tournament.

Maradona was obviously a fantastic player but there's very much a rose tinted view when it comes to him.

Of course he’s not LITERALLY single handedly won it. I think what those who watched it are saying is no team has ever been more dependent on a single player for their success as Maradona in 86 and Napoli in 86-87.

[oneone73]

Stanton

Madsen

McGraw

Scott

Quinn

Stein

[blackpoolhibs]

Of course he’s not LITERALLY single handedly won it. I think what those who watched it are saying is no team has ever been more dependent on a single player for their success as Maradona in 86 and Napoli in 86-87.

I think that just about sums him up. :agree:

[Since90+2]

I think that just about sums him up. :agree:

I'd probably agree. I'm not sure it's a particularly strong argument for him being the greatest player of all time though, certainly not when you compare what Messi has achieved and over what time period.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd probably agree. I'm not sure it's a particularly strong argument for him being the greatest player of all time though, certainly not when you compare what Messi has achieved and over what time period.

I've already said i think Messi is the best i've seen, but it is all subjective. I'm basing it over many many years, but if we were saying who was the best player who had the most outrageous skill and could win a game entirely on his own, i'd say Maradonna is the best i've seen.

The reason i say that is i watched him do it when he was playing against proper hatchet men, not softy's like Chilleni (sp) and i really dont think Messi or Ronaldo could have done what he did at that particular period of time in Italy, when football was different to todays football.

[DH1875]

Can't believe what I'm reading. Ciro Ferrara was a solid player. Ciro Ferrara would struggle to play for the top 5 Italian clubs, WTF?????
He was world class. He played something like 250 GAMES FOR JUVE when he left Napoli and has 50 caps for Italy in an era when Italy had loads of top class defenders.

Careca was a superstar. He played in the 86 and 90 world cups for Brazil and only missed the 82 world cup because of injury.
He scored 73 goals in 164 goals for Napoli which I think is a better goal per game return than Maradona at Napoli. Could easily say if it wasn't for Careca scoring those goals then Napoli wouldn't have won the league lol.

[J-C]

I've already said i think Messi is the best i've seen, but it is all subjective. I'm basing it over many many years, but if we were saying who was the best player who had the most outrageous skill and could win a game entirely on his own, i'd say Maradonna is the best i've seen.

The reason i say that is i watched him do it when he was playing against proper hatchet men, not softy's like Chilleni (sp) and i really dont think Messi or Ronaldo could have done what he did at that particular period of time in Italy, when football was different to todays football.


You can add Best and Pele to that era where they got booted up and down the park regularly, all this talk is subjective and we'll all have our favourites. I remember watching Best, Pele etc as a kid in the 60's and 70's and was in awe of their talents, the same could be said watching Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo, all world beaters in their own right, just choose your favourite.

[JimBHibees]

I've already said i think Messi is the best i've seen, but it is all subjective. I'm basing it over many many years, but if we were saying who was the best player who had the most outrageous skill and could win a game entirely on his own, i'd say Maradonna is the best i've seen.

The reason i say that is i watched him do it when he was playing against proper hatchet men, not softy's like Chilleni (sp) and i really dont think Messi or Ronaldo could have done what he did at that particular period of time in Italy, when football was different to todays football.

Agree with that. Can remember Mark Hughes no shrinking violet saying the only time he was genuinely scared on a pitch was when he was playing against Italy for Wales.

Mark Hughes has been recalling playing in Wales' last win in Italy, back in 1988. It's safe to say he experienced the harsh truths of Italian defending.

"Two of their defenders, Giuseppe Bergomi and Riccardo Ferri, were a bit naughty. I was kicked from pillar to post.

"If one of them didn't get me, the other one would. It was probably one of the only times I was unnerved in a game because they were willing to do anything.

"I had elbows in the front and back of my head at the same time, and both my socks shredded by a two-footed tackle. I needed a new pair before I could carry on.

"It was a bit brutal at times. There had been a bit of talk that Juve wanted me, to link up with Rushie, so I think that was their way of putting me off coming to Italy - it worked!"

[LeithMike]

No, because cars are vital in F1. Messi and Maradona both have just 2 legs. They're on a level playing field and one is miles ahead of the other in every capacitySo, are team-mates not vital in football? I think cars in F1 are pretty much the equivalent of team-mates in football. It goes to show there are factors beneath the stats you love to quote.

All stats point to Hamilton being a better driver than Senna. If you think Senna is better then you are looking beyond the stats (which you are not permitting others to do in relation to football).

Messi is a fantastic player but he played in a more dominant team with better players (and probably a better coach) than Maradona. Their achievements are very different but you cannot dismiss one set of achievements purely by quoting stats or you are indeed saying that Hamilton, Prost, Schumacher, etc are better than Senna.

Why not let people hold their own views without trying to belittle these? You don't have to trash others' views to be secure in your own.

I can completely understand why people think Messis is the GOAT but I can also understand the case for Maradona and its his achievements that probably speak more to me.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Pagan Hibernia]

These debates nearly always end up with anger.

I’ll never understand why people get so dogmatic and defensive about such a subjective topic. Other people have other opinions and you’ll never change them so why bother getting worked up?

[BILLYHIBS]

These debates nearly always end up with anger.

I’ll never understand why people get so dogmatic and defensive about such a subjective topic. Other people have other opinions and you’ll never change them so why bother getting worked up?
:top marks

Agree

Pele wins

[hibsbollah]

Can't believe what I'm reading. Ciro Ferrara was a solid player. Ciro Ferrara would struggle to play for the top 5 Italian clubs, WTF?????
He was world class. He played something like 250 GAMES FOR JUVE when he left Napoli and has 50 caps for Italy in an era when Italy had loads of top class defenders.

Careca was a superstar. He played in the 86 and 90 world cups for Brazil and only missed the 82 world cup because of injury.
He scored 73 goals in 164 goals for Napoli which I think is a better goal per game return than Maradona at Napoli. Could easily say if it wasn't for Careca scoring those goals then Napoli wouldn't have won the league lol.

It was me that highlighted Ferrara as being an exception to the rule, he was the standout. That’s avoiding the point which is you have to look at the other top teams. Juves centre backs were Gentile and Scirea that season, widely considered to be two of the best defenders of all time! In the same club side! So Ferrara WOULD probably struggle to play regularly for Juve. In Scotland terms he’s probably the Dave McPherson to Miller and McLeish :greengrin.

Italy was where all the worlds best players went in the 80s. That’s what you have to bear in mind when assessing Maradona achievements in a team that was relatively weaker than their peers.

[DH1875]

It was me that highlighted Ferrara as being an exception to the rule, he was the standout. That’s avoiding the point which is you have to look at the other top teams. Juves centre backs were Gentile and Scirea that season, widely considered to be two of the best defenders of all time! In the same club side! So Ferrara WOULD probably struggle to play regularly for Juve. In Scotland terms he’s probably the Dave McPherson to Miller and McLeish :greengrin.

Italy was where all the worlds best players went in the 80s. That’s what you have to bear in mind when assessing Maradona achievements in a team that was relatively weaker than their peers.

You said he would struggle to get into the top 5 Italian sides defence, not just Juve. I might give you AC Milan around that time but this is a guy with 50 caps for Italy and as said, who played 250 games for Juve in a defence you said he wouldn't get in.

[Hiber-nation]

These debates nearly always end up with anger.

I’ll never understand why people get so dogmatic and defensive about such a subjective topic. Other people have other opinions and you’ll never change them so why bother getting worked up?

Totally agree and was just going to post this. Why do some folk on here consider what is their opinion to be a 100% fact and try to ridicule those who disagree? It's really childish behaviour to be honest.

[Since90+2]

On a slightly different note Messi has agreed a new contract at Barca. He was previously on £123 million a year. That's over £2 million a week or about £300,000 a day.

Mind boggling.

[heretoday]

Eusebio. Ahead of his time. He'd fit right into one of the modern one-touch sides. Fast with great control and a cannon shot.

[hibsbollah]

You said he would struggle to get into the top 5 Italian sides defence, not just Juve. I might give you AC Milan around that time but this is a guy with 50 caps for Italy and as said, who played 250 games for Juve in a defence you said he wouldn't get in.

You’re splitting hairs a bit, not sure why. Whether he would or wouldn’t or was the best defender in Italy or the 6th best at the time and deserved more caps or less, neither of us really knows because I bet we didn’t watch it religiously :greengrin

Do you agree with the wider point that Napolis squad was far weaker than the biggest five or six of their opponents or not?

[stantonhibby]

These debates nearly always end up with anger.

I’ll never understand why people get so dogmatic and defensive about such a subjective topic. Other people have other opinions and you’ll never change them so why bother getting worked up?


Indeed.....however there a couple of posters in particular who just have to be right regardless of the subject and will argue you into submission.

[matty_f]

Messi is the greatest, for me. He’s an absolutely mesmerising player. I never really saw Pele but I am old enough to remember Maradona and he was incredible too, but i think Messi is better.

[Barman Stanton]

You really have to watch a Napoli game from that time to see the incredible importance of Maradona. The 4-0 win against the great Milan team is a good place to start. He is pretty much involved in everything. Comes deep to collect the ball, throw ins go to him, he takes free kicks, he is just involved in everything. He is the best for me, although others honours clearly wipe the floor with him.

There isn’t half some arrogant posters on here though. Just can’t accept a difference of opinion.

[DH1875]

Do you agree with the wider point that Napolis squad was far weaker than the biggest five or six of their opponents or not?

Don't agree with that at all to be honest. Who are the 6 teams that had a FAR BETTER squad than Napoli during that period?

[DH1875]

Could also argue that Serie A wasn't all that. Verona and Sampdoria won it around about the same time as Napoli.

*Both good teams but not far better than Napoli.

[hibsbollah]

Could also argue that Serie A wasn't all that. Verona and Sampdoria won it around about the same time as Napoli.

*Both good teams but not far better than Napoli.

Ok, that’s your opinion. I’d say it goes against everything any football expert has ever said about that period. Italy was the dominant league in the 80s, all the best players were there. Probably the most dominant league in European football history. Have you got a link to something you’ve read that contradicts that?

[Saint Hibee]

Matt Le Tissier is the correct answer, not that I'm biased or anything.

[The Modfather]

It would probably be a good starting point to agree the definition of the greatest. Natural ability? Fulfilled potential? Achievements? Pioneer? Etc etc

Natural ability - Maradonna (although jumping on the bandwagon as too young to appreciate him in his prime) and not sure Messi is any less naturally gifted than Maradonna.

Fulfilled Potential - Ronaldo

Achievements - difficult to separate Ronaldo and Messi

Pioneer - Pele. Cruyff too. Although more recent players at a disadvantage through no fault of their own.

All things considered, for natural ability, achievements and longevity Messi is the greatest if there has to be one man left standing in this debate, IMO.

[Since90+2]

Ok, that’s your opinion. I’d say it goes against everything any football expert has ever said about that period. Italy was the dominant league in the 80s, all the best players were there. Probably the most dominant league in European football history. Have you got a link to something you’ve read that contradicts that?

I suppose the easiest way to check that would be Italian teams performances in Europe. During that timeframe were they more dominant than the Spanish sides of the last 20 years?

If not, then I'm not sure what kind of article you can read, ultimately a journalists opinion, that could override actual performances in Europe as a measuring point for how dominant a league was.

[Leitherhibs]

Best of my life time would undoubtedly be Lionel Messi, with Brazillian Ronaldo a distant second, and Cristiano third.

It's difficult when you've not been around to watch them, to judge players before your time but I do think from what I've seen Pele would have the hardest time adapting to the modern game. Maradonna for me would probably operate in a similar way to Messi and I think could probably improve any side in the world, whereas Pele would need to find a team that could create chances in abundance like those great Brazil sides of that era.

[hibsbollah]

I suppose the easiest way to check that would be Italian teams performances in Europe. During that timeframe were they more dominant than the Spanish sides of the last 20 years?

If not, then I'm not sure what kind of article you can read, ultimately a journalists opinion, that could override actual performances in Europe as a measuring point for how dominant a league was.

No, they weren’t, and that’s a fair point. They underachieved in the latter stages of the big European competitions. AC Milan’s Dutch powered team
the big exception.

[overdrive]

Messi is far better at rolling after being fouled. Here are some of the tackles Maradonna faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvzAxgoVEk&ab_channel=GioCooch). For the likes of George Best multiply the force by 2 and then add in that lots were from behind with no likelihood that the player committing the foul would be red carded.

What I find quite interesting in that video is amount of times multiple players are queuing up to take him out. One player tries, but Maradonna glides away from him, second player tries, same thing, third player… boom!

[DH1875]

Ok, that’s your opinion. I’d say it goes against everything any football expert has ever said about that period. Italy was the dominant league in the 80s, all the best players were there. Probably the most dominant league in European football history. Have you got a link to something you’ve read that contradicts that?

You picked me up wrong. Of course Serie A was the better league at that time. I was just being flippant. What I ment to say was, what's the bigger achievement: Verona winning the league without Maradona or Napoli winning with? Infact just in general, what one was bigger? As I said earlier, Careca won the league with Napoli. He scored 2 goals in Napoli UEFA cup final. He scored 30 goals in 60 games for Brazil including 5 goals at Mexico 86 which is the tournament we all rave about when talking Maradona (myself included).
In conclusion, winning the league with Napoli does not make you the greatest player ever. They weren't as bad a team as folk make out and Verona managed to do it without him.

*Also, who are the 6 teams at that time that had a better squad than Napoli?

[hibsbollah]

You picked me up wrong. Of course Serie A was the better league at that time. I was just being flippant. What I ment to say was, what's the bigger achievement: Verona winning the league without Maradona or Napoli winning with? Infact just in general, what one was bigger? As I said earlier, Careca won the league with Napoli. He scored 2 goals in Napoli UEFA cup final. He scored 30 goals in 60 games for Brazil including 5 goals at Mexico 86 which is the tournament we all rave about when talking Maradona (myself included).
In conclusion, winning the league with Napoli does not make you the greatest player ever. They weren't as bad a team as folk make out and Verona managed to do it without him.

*Also, who are the 6 teams at that time that had a better squad than Napoli?

Your normal ‘big five’, definitely. Add one of Fiorentina Samp and Genoa I would imagine? I’m in the garden so I can’t do a deep dive at the moment.

[Since90+2]

You picked me up wrong. Of course Serie A was the better league at that time. I was just being flippant. What I ment to say was, what's the bigger achievement: Verona winning the league without Maradona or Napoli winning with? Infact just in general, what one was bigger? As I said earlier, Careca won the league with Napoli. He scored 2 goals in Napoli UEFA cup final. He scored 30 goals in 60 games for Brazil including 5 goals at Mexico 86 which is the tournament we all rave about when talking Maradona (myself included).
In conclusion, winning the league with Napoli does not make you the greatest player ever. They weren't as bad a team as folk make out and Verona managed to do it without him.

*Also, who are the 6 teams at that time that had a better squad than Napoli?

Great point about Verona actually.

[hibsbollah]

Great point about Verona actually.

I posted this before, great wee pod on the Hellas Verona story

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nTlZPsfsGAEunxcK1VAKz?si=z_ldo23oQAWwreqARBiqKQ&dl_branch=1

[Since90+2]

I posted this before, great wee pod on the Hellas Verona story

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nTlZPsfsGAEunxcK1VAKz?si=z_ldo23oQAWwreqARBiqKQ&dl_branch=1

Thanks. Will give it a listen.

[J-C]

So, are team-mates not vital in football? I think cars in F1 are pretty much the equivalent of team-mates in football. It goes to show there are factors beneath the stats you love to quote.

All stats point to Hamilton being a better driver than Senna. If you think Senna is better then you are looking beyond the stats (which you are not permitting others to do in relation to football).

Messi is a fantastic player but he played in a more dominant team with better players (and probably a better coach) than Maradona. Their achievements are very different but you cannot dismiss one set of achievements purely by quoting stats or you are indeed saying that Hamilton, Prost, Schumacher, etc are better than Senna.

Why not let people hold their own views without trying to belittle these? You don't have to trash others' views to be secure in your own.

I can completely understand why people think Messis is the GOAT but I can also understand the case for Maradona and its his achievements that probably speak more to me.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Add into the debate Jackie Stewart and Jim Clarke

[Pretty Boy]

I suppose the easiest way to check that would be Italian teams performances in Europe. During that timeframe were they more dominant than the Spanish sides of the last 20 years?

If not, then I'm not sure what kind of article you can read, ultimately a journalists opinion, that could override actual performances in Europe as a measuring point for how dominant a league was.

You'd have to consider the 80s was before modern seeding though.

Now the likes of Barcelona, Man City, Real Madrid etc just about have a free pass to the quarter finals of the CL. Back then Bayern Munich and Juventus could have met in the 1st round.

When you look at the 80s the likes of Hamburg, Aston Villa and Steaua Bucharest won the tournament. Post 1992 it becomes much more of a closed shop with the same clubs dominating.

[hibsbollah]

Thanks. Will give it a listen.

Liam Henderson gets a very brief mention

[Since90+2]

You'd have to consider the 80s was before modern seeding though.

Now the likes of Barcelona, Man City, Real Madrid etc just about have a free pass to the quarter finals of the CL. Back then Bayern Munich and Juventus could have met in the 1st round.

When you look at the 80s the likes of Hamburg, Aston Villa and Steaua Bucharest won the tournament. Post 1992 it becomes much more of a closed shop with the same clubs dominating.

True, but you'd also have to counter that by saying that English teams were also banned for 5 years meaning less competition from one of Europe's biggest leagues for Italian sides.

[660]

I was going to say Diego was the greatest but then I remembered he didn’t play in the lowland league so now I don’t know what to think.

[DH1875]

Your normal ‘big five’, definitely. Add one of Fiorentina Samp and Genoa I would imagine? I’m in the garden so I can’t do a deep dive at the moment.

Big 5?????? I hope your not including Lazio in there. They weren't even in Serie A when Napoli won it the first time lol.
Napoli didn't come from nowhere. The year before they won it they finished 3rd. They then went on to finish 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 1st. It wasn't a one off. Maradona didn't drag them anywhere. Over a 5 Year period they didn't finish outside the top three. There squad was as good as anyones. I'll give you AC Milan and Inter But teams Like Lazio, Roma, Genoa, Fiorantina, your having a laugh. I think your getting your time frame mixed up as they didn't come till after Italia 90 and the knock on effect from there. Like I said, Lazio weren't even in the league at the time.

[hibsbollah]

Big 5?????? I hope your not including Lazio in there. They weren't even in Serie A when Napoli won it the first time lol.
Napoli didn't come from nowhere. The year before they won it they finished 3rd. They then went on to finish 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 1st. It wasn't a one off. Maradona didn't drag them anywhere. Over a 5 Year period they didn't finish outside the top three. There squad was as good as anyones. I'll give you AC Milan and Inter But teams Like Lazio, Roma, Genoa, Fiorantina, your having a laugh. I think your getting your time frame mixed up as they didn't come till after Italia 90 and the knock on effect from there. Like I said, Lazio weren't even in the league at the time.

Steady on with the lols. Lazio were indeed one of the top five, they had Michael Laudrup and a multicapped Brazilian, forgot his name in midfield, as their two foreigners and a strong squad, on paper way stronger than Napoli, yes they got relegated the year that Maradona arrived but lots of powerful rich teams do, that’s exactly my point, Napoli had no business finishing above teams like that.

I’ve got to be honest, far too many individuals (not just you) getting ridiculously hot under the collar about a discussion that is really not that important :faf: I just like talking football without mocking folk or calling valid opinions invalid. Bored with it.

[DH1875]

Steady on with the lols. Lazio were indeed one of the top five, they had Michael Laudrup and a multicapped Brazilian, forgot his name in midfield, as their two foreigners and a strong squad, on paper way stronger than Napoli, yes they got relegated the year that Maradona arrived but lots of powerful rich teams do, that’s exactly my point, Napoli had no business finishing above teams like that.

I’ve got to be honest, far too many individuals (not just you) getting ridiculously hot under the collar about a discussion that is really not that important :faf: I just like talking football without mocking folk or calling valid opinions invalid. Bored with it.

Dude come on, you know me better than that. You know from the NFL stuff i can be bit of an arse at times. Not intentionally having a serious dig/go at you.

That being said, I still can't agree Maradona is the greatest because he won the league with Napoli and that's from someone who would say that he was actually better than Messi.

[blackpoolhibs]

I was going to say Diego was the greatest but then I remembered he didn’t play in the lowland league so now I don’t know what to think.


:faf:. :top marks

[hibsbollah]

Dude come on, you know me better than that. You know from the NFL stuff i can be bit of an arse at times. Not intentionally having a serious dig/go at you.

That being said, I still can't agree Maradona is the greatest because he won the league with Napoli and that's from someone who would say that he was actually better than Messi.

Yeah fair dos :aok:

[BILLYHIBS]

Did Pele, Maradona or Ronaldo win the Scottish League with three different clubs? No, they did not.

Game over. :flag:
Aye try doing it outwith the OF tae

Growing up speaking tae auld codgers family members and in boozers asking them who the greatest player they ever saw was and the answer regardless of allegiance was always the same

[jacomo]

What I find quite interesting in that video is amount of times multiple players are queuing up to take him out. One player tries, but Maradonna glides away from him, second player tries, same thing, third player… boom!


This, plus the awful state of the pitches, makes me think that comparing km run during matches is a simplistic way of looking at things. Of course today’s players are better athletes, but players in previous eras had to be built more like warriors, trudging through mud and taking heavy hits.

[BILLYHIBS]

This, plus the awful state of the pitches, makes me think that comparing km run during matches is a simplistic way of looking at things. Of course today’s players are better athletes, but players in previous eras had to be built more like warriors, trudging through mud and taking heavy hits.
Brilliant Docu/Film on Maradona’s time in Naples - Diego

Looking at the individual stats of his time there there is no doubt he was a major influence

2 x Serie A

2 x Runners up

I x Coppa Italia

1 x Runners up

1 x Italian Super Cup

1 x UEFA Cup

1 x World Cup

[calumhibee1]

This, plus the awful state of the pitches, makes me think that comparing km run during matches is a simplistic way of looking at things. Of course today’s players are better athletes, but players in previous eras had to be built more like warriors, trudging through mud and taking heavy hits.

Heavy hits from who?

The players back in the 70s we’re absolute weeds compared to the players now.

It’s safe to say that getting smashed by Van Dijk or Sergio Ramos would do infinite more damage to you than some guy that was lunging 60 a day in the 70s.

[calumhibee1]

Brilliant Docu/Film on Maradona’s time in Naples - Diego

Looking at the individual stats of his his time there there is no doubt he was a major influence

2 x Serie A

2 x Runners up

I x Coppa Italia

1 x Runners up

1 x Italian Super Cup

1 x UEFA Cup

1 x World Cup

Mario Gotze

5 x Bundesliga

1 x runner up

4 x German Cup

1 x World Cup

1 x Super Cup

1 x club World Cup

Maradonas honours list really isn’t much to shout about. Neither is his goals or appearances. Without the statistics to back it up its nigh on impossible to consider the claim of ‘best ever’ seriously. It would seem much more based on the fact he’s a raj than his ability.

Won a few trophies, scored a few goals, performed exceptionally well over a few random periods in his career is about the look of things.

[Andy74]

Heavy hits from who?

The players back in the 70s we’re absolute weeds compared to the players now.

It’s safe to say that getting smashed by Van Dijk or Sergio Ramos would do infinite more damage to you than some guy that was lunging 60 a day in the 70s.

You’ve lost the plot. If you ever had the plot.

[eastterrace]

You’ve lost the plot. If you ever had the plot.😂😂😂

[calumhibee1]

You’ve lost the plot. If you ever had the plot.

I’ve really not. The fact you believe that players in the 70s had more power or physical prowess then the players now would suggest it was in fact you that had lost the plot.

If i was choosing someone to half me it certainly wouldn’t be some 6ft2 Goliath from today’s football. I’d much rather a chain smoking alcoholic footballer from the 70s.

But of course you don’t believe that any physical developments have been made since the 70s. We get it. It’s cute that you remember your heroes the way you do.

[DH1875]

Mario Gotze

5 x Bundesliga

1 x runner up

4 x German Cup

1 x World Cup

1 x Super Cup

1 x club World Cup

Maradonas honours list really isn’t much to shout about. Neither is his goals or appearances. Without the statistics to back it up its nigh on impossible to consider the claim of ‘best ever’ seriously. It would seem much more based on the fact he’s a raj than his ability.

Erm......Sergio Ramos had won......

La Liga x5

Copa del Ray x2

Spanish super cup x4

Champions league x4.

UEFA super cup x3.

FIFA club world cup x4

UEFA European U19 Championship.

UEFA European Champion x2.

World Cup Winner x1.

Who cares about 2nd place or runners up medals.

Would imagine that Iniesta and Xavi have similar records to be fair. Ronaldo or Messi haven't won the world cup.

[Wakeyhibee]

I’ve really not. The fact you believe that players in the 70s had more power or physical prowess then the players now would suggest it was in fact you that had lost the plot.

If i was choosing someone to half me it certainly wouldn’t be some 6ft2 Goliath from today’s football. I’d much rather a chain smoking alcoholic footballer from the 70s.

But of course you don’t believe that any physical developments have been made since the 70s. We get it. It’s cute that you remember your heroes the way you do.

Larry Lloyd, Tommy Smith, Gordon McQueen, Dave Watson, Norman Hunter, Kenny Burns, chopper Harris etc and that was without thinking more than 5 seconds.

[calumhibee1]

Larry Lloyd, Tommy Smith, Gordon McQueen, Dave Watson, Norman Hunter, Kenny Burns, chopper Harris etc and that was without thinking more than 5 seconds.

What’s your point?

A bunch of ‘hard men’ who looked ‘hard’ against equally unathletic players?

Virgil Van Dijk and the like would throw these guys about like an empty tracksuit. Being ‘hard’ in the 70s would count for absolutely nothing these days. Footballers nowadays are proper athletes. Not slightly overweight chain smoking alcoholics like the 70s.

[J-C]

Larry Lloyd, Tommy Smith, Gordon McQueen, Dave Watson, Norman Hunter, Kenny Burns, chopper Harris etc and that was without thinking more than 5 seconds.

Thanks for saving me the time to get the brain working and remember all these players you can add Souness, Vinny Jones, Benetti, Tardelli, Razor Ruddock, Duncan Ferguson.

[J-C]

What’s your point?

A bunch of ‘hard men’ who looked ‘hard’ against equally unathletic players?

Virgil Van Dijk and the like would throw these guys about like an empty tracksuit.


Callum you sound like you're on the strong bevvy tonight mate, you've what ever was left of the plot you had.

[bigwheel]

Thanks for saving me the time to get the brain working and remember all these players you can add Souness, Vinny Jones, Benetti, Tardelli, Razor Ruddock, Duncan Ferguson.

Brian Kilcline, Dave MacKay, Erich Schaedler, mick Harford, Joe Jordan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[calumhibee1]

Callum you sound like you're on the strong bevvy tonight mate, you've what ever was left of the plot you had.

Footballers now would swat these guys aside.

Van Dijk is 6ft4 and probably about 90 odd kg of pure muscle. He’d throw these guys around for fun.

They might have been all that when they played against guys that may aswell have been sponsored by lambert & butler and Stella Artois. They wouldn’t be now.

[Andy74]

Footballers now would swat these guys aside.

Van Dijk is 6ft4 and probably about 90 odd kg of pure muscle. He’d throw these guys around for fun.

They might have been all that when they played against guys that may aswell have been sponsored by lambert & butler and Stella Artois. They wouldn’t be now.

You’d fancy a go now with a gladiator would you?

After all, it was 2,000 years ago now so think how weedy they must have been.

From what was just an opinion I disagreed with your ignorance on this matter now is astounding.

[J-C]

Footballers now would swat these guys aside.

Van Dijk is 6ft4 and probably about 92kg of pure muscle. He’d throw these guys around for fun.

They might have been all that when they played. They wouldn’t be now.

Callum please stop with this, you're starting to really make a fool of yourself, do you really feel Van Dijk is that hard and physical that he'd literally bully some of the hardest men to ever play the game if they were playing today. :confused:

I don't know how old you are but go and watch some games from the 60's - 80's and come back to this thread.

[calumhibee1]

You’d fancy a go now with a gladiator would you?

After all, it was 2,000 years ago now so think how weedy they must have been.

From what was just an opinion I disagreed with your ignorance on this matter now is astounding.

I’m not a modern day gladiator am I?

We’re comparing footballers with footballers. Not everyday people who have hardly been in a fight in their life with gladiators. It’s a ridiculous comparison really.

For what was an opinion I disagreed with, your desperation to ignore all the evidence because your idols don’t come out anywhere near on top is astounding.

Especially when you’re trying to compare every day people with gladiators to prove your point regarding footballers V footballers :faf:

[calumhibee1]

Callum please stop with this, you're starting to really make a fool of yourself, do you really feel Van Dijk is that hard and physical that he'd literally bully some of the hardest men to ever play the game if they were playing today. :confused:

I don't know how old you are but go and watch some games from the 60's - 80's and come back to this thread.

:faf:

Watch football from the 60s-80s.

There’s not a player in those clips capable of doing the damage some of the absolute athletes nowadays could do should they want to.

Thankfully there’s more to football nowadays than being a thug and it’s not something they need to show off as often.

[calumhibee1]

Erm......Sergio Ramos had won......

La Liga x5

Copa del Ray x2

Spanish super cup x4

Champions league x4.

UEFA super cup x3.

FIFA club world cup x4

UEFA European U19 Championship.

UEFA European Champion x2.

World Cup Winner x1.

Who cares about 2nd place or runners up medals.

Would imagine that Iniesta and Xavi have similar records to be fair. Ronaldo or Messi haven't won the world cup.

Exactly. Maradonas record does a lot more to suggest he’s not the best ever than it does to suggest he is.

[hibsbollah]

Callum please stop with this, you're starting to really make a fool of yourself, do you really feel Van Dijk is that hard and physical that he'd literally bully some of the hardest men to ever play the game if they were playing today. :confused:

I don't know how old you are but go and watch some games from the 60's - 80's and come back to this thread.

Just tell him he’s right, it saves time.

[calumhibee1]

Just tell him he’s right, it saves time.

I’m sure common sense would have told you this already but if you’re short on time you can avoid posting on the thread. That’ll save you some of your time rather than trying to dictate how other people use the forum.

[MWHIBBIES]

The chain smoking thugs of the 80s wouldn't get close enough to today's guys to kick them imo. Would get played off the pitch. Game is physically and tactically miles ahead of 20 years ago, never mind 40.

[calumhibee1]

The chain smoking thugs of the 80s wouldn't get close enough to today's guys to kick them imo. Would get played off the pitch. Game is physically and tactically miles ahead of 20 years ago, never mind 40.

:agree:

Still though, Tommy Jones, Jimmy Smith and Henry Jenkinson would easily boot Messi off the park and all that.

Could Messi do it on a cold wet night against Derek Stevens who was renowned for emm.. kicking folk? :confused:

[Haymaker]

It's Robin Friday.

Stop the debate.

[BILLYHIBS]

You’ve lost the plot. If you ever had the plot.
This

[Wakeyhibee]

What’s your point?

A bunch of ‘hard men’ who looked ‘hard’ against equally unathletic players?

Virgil Van Dijk and the like would throw these guys about like an empty tracksuit. Being ‘hard’ in the 70s would count for absolutely nothing these days. Footballers nowadays are proper athletes. Not slightly overweight chain smoking alcoholics like the 70s.

You are partially right in that they would be sent off after their 2nd tackle. You only got sent off for punching someone more or less.

Equally they didnt play on a manicured pitch with a lighter ball and boots. If you would rather be halved (as you put it) by these guys than a nimble modern day football player then fine.

[Wakeyhibee]

You’d fancy a go now with a gladiator would you?

After all, it was 2,000 years ago now so think how weedy they must have been.

From what was just an opinion I disagreed with your ignorance on this matter now is astounding.

I wish I'd read this first, save me posting

[Crunchie]

:agree:

Still though, Tommy Jones, Jimmy Smith and Henry Jenkinson would easily boot Messi off the park and all that.

Could Messi do it on a cold wet night against Derek Stevens who was renowned for emm.. kicking folk? :confused:
The tattie fields that were played on in winter would be a leveller.

[Crunchie]

The chain smoking thugs of the 80s wouldn't get close enough to today's guys to kick them imo. Would get played off the pitch. Game is physically and tactically miles ahead of 20 years ago, never mind 40.
Socrates would have a good laugh at your opinion.

[MWHIBBIES]

Socrates would have a good laugh at your opinion.

Perhaps, but he died at 57 with tons of health issues. A fantastic footballer, but definitely not the peak of physical fitness we see today.

These guys were fantastic footballers. I'm not doubting that. But they were fantastic vs the players of the 70s, and 80s. Not the ones of today. Would some have adapted and still been great? Yes. Radja Naingolan is a great player despite smoking a lot. But would he be ever better? Probably.

[Crunchie]

Perhaps, but he died at 57 with tons of health issues. A fantastic footballer, but definitely not the peak of physical fitness we see today.

These guys were fantastic footballers. I'm not doubting that. But they were fantastic vs the players of the 70s, and 80s. Not the ones of today. Would some have adapted and still been great? Yes. Radja Naingolan is a great player despite smoking a lot. But would he be ever better? Probably.
You're having a laugh if you don't think Socrates at his peak wouldn't be able to play alongside the best of today.

[660]

I remember the specific date every football player transformed from a fat pissed up smoker into a shiny glistening muscly adonis. I think it was a Tuesday and Jim White announced it on Sky Sports News.

[Since90+2]

I remember the specific date every football player transformed from a fat pissed up smoker into a shiny glistening muscly adonis. I think it was a Tuesday and Jim White announced it on Sky Sports News.

Of course not every player but it's generally accepted that a lot of players back in the 60 and 70s were heavy drinkers. Off the top of my head Best, Jim Baxter, Jimmy Johnstone three of the best players the British Isles have ever produced were very heavy drinkers and/or smokers.

Internationally some of the greatest players like Maradona and Socrates also had drink/drug problems too.

That just simply wouldn't happen at the modern day elite level of football.

[MWHIBBIES]

You're having a laugh if you don't think Socrates at his peak wouldn't be able to play alongside the best of today.

I didn't say that.

[J-C]

Of course not every player but it's generally accepted that a lot of players back in the 60 and 70s were heavy drinkers. Off the top of my head Best, Jim Baxter, Jimmy Johnstone three of the best players the British Isles have ever produced were very heavy drinkers and/or smokers.

Internationally some of the greatest players like Maradona and Socrates also had drink/drug problems too.

That just simply wouldn't happen at the modern day elite level of football.

Slightly more modern than 60's 70's.

Paul Merson, Tony Adams, Paul Gasgoigne, Paul McGrath, Kenny Samson, Adrian Mutu, Mark Bosnich.

[DH1875]

Slightly more modern than 60's 70's.

Paul Merson, Tony Adams, Paul Gasgoigne, Paul McGrath, Kenny Samson, Adrian Mutu, Mark Bosnich.

Russell Latapy

[Since90+2]

Slightly more modern than 60's 70's.

Paul Merson, Tony Adams, Paul Gasgoigne, Paul McGrath, Kenny Samson, Adrian Mutu, Mark Bosnich.

I think Mutu actually emphasis the point in the change during the generations. It was deemed completely unacceptable what he did and he was sacked, massively fined and banned.

Players from the 60s,70s and 80s were openly heavy drinker/drug takers and it never seemed to impact on their careers.

The physical conditioning of modern day footballers are light years ahead of what was seen as acceptable levels of fitness in previous generations.

[BILLYHIBS]

Russell Latapy
:not worth

[J-C]

I think Mutu actually emphasis the point in the change during the generations. It was deemed completely unacceptable what he did and he was sacked, massively fined and banned.

Players from the 60s,70s and 80s were openly heavy drinker/drug takers and it never seemed to impact on their careers.

The physical conditioning of modern day footballers are light years ahead of what was seen as acceptable levels of fitness in previous generations.

You keep spouting this with zero evidence apart from your ideology of what you think all footballers where like then, do you honestly think every single footballer smoked 40 a day and drank 10 pints after training, if this is your thinking it's way off the mark. Like every period in football you'll always get players who didn't look after themselves and their careers suffered, our own cup winning goal scorer Stokes has a well known problem with his lifestyle, Garry O'Connor a well known drug user, Riordan very well known when he played for being drunk and fighting with bouncers, all 3 of their careers went down the pan at the height of their careers, so I'd say it impacted them.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I think Mutu actually emphasis the point in the change during the generations. It was deemed completely unacceptable what he did and he was sacked, massively fined and banned.

Players from the 60s,70s and 80s were openly heavy drinker/drug takers and it never seemed to impact on their careers.

The physical conditioning of modern day footballers are light years ahead of what was seen as acceptable levels of fitness in previous generations.

never impacted their careers? George Best was effectively done at the highest level at the age of 26.

Booze destroyed one of the finest footballers that ever breathed, and robbed us all of another 6 or 7 years of watching his genius.

[Since90+2]

You keep spouting this with zero evidence apart from your ideology of what you think all footballers where like then, do you honestly think every single footballer smoked 40 a day and drank 10 pints after training, if this is your thinking it's way off the mark. Like every period in football you'll always get players who didn't look after themselves and their careers suffered, our own cup winning goal scorer Stokes has a well known problem with his lifestyle, Garry O'Connor a well known drug user, Riordan very well known when he played for being drunk and fighting with bouncers, all 3 of their careers went down the pan at the height of their careers, so I'd say it impacted them.

Idealogy? That's a rather strange choice of words, but anyway.

I think you'll find in my post prior to the one you quoted I actually said not every footballer (I'm guessing you just ignored that to go off on your wee rant) however you are kidding yourself on if you don't believe that heavy drinking was a far larger part of professional footballer life's than it is now.

[Since90+2]

never impacted their careers? George Best was effectively done at the highest level at the age of 26.

Booze destroyed one of the finest footballers that ever breathed, and robbed us all of another 6 or 7 years of watching his genius.

I meant in terms of he wasn't sacked / released by his clubs. It was openly known that George Best was out most nights of the week getting hammered and yet come the weekend he was in the starting lineup.

That would not be tolerated at a top level club these days and the player would not be selected and eventually released if it continued.

[J-C]

I meant in terms of he wasn't sacked / released by his clubs. It was openly known that George Best was out most nights of the week getting hammered and yet come the weekend he was in the starting lineup.

That would not be tolerated at a top level club these days and the player would not be selected and eventually released if it continued.


Ideology - beliefs, ideas, theory.

Gerard assault in a nightclub, no effect on his career so far.
Joey Barton, assault twice, 4 months jail, still played and now a manager.
Tony Adams, jail for drunk driving, went back to club to finish his career.
Duncan Ferguson done 3 months and ended up at Everton.
Jan Molby also months drunk driving and back in the Liverpool team when released.

It happens quite a lot where players careers are not affected too much by their behaviour.

[Hibiza]

Erich

[BILLYHIBS]

Just noticed that Cristiano Ronaldo was awarded top scorer at Euro 2020 to add to his 145 individual records :

1 Ronaldo 5 goals 1 assist 360 minutes

2 Patrick Schick 5 goals 0 assists 404 minutes


I thought one of his more interesting individual records the first player to score a senior goal in every minute of the 90

What? :greengrin

[DH1875]

Ideology - beliefs, ideas, theory.

Gerard assault in a nightclub, no effect on his career so far.
Joey Barton, assault twice, 4 months jail, still played and now a manager.
Tony Adams, jail for drunk driving, went back to club to finish his career.
Duncan Ferguson done 3 months and ended up at Everton.
Jan Molby also months drunk driving and back in the Liverpool team when released.

It happens quite a lot where players careers are not affected too much by their behaviour.

Declan Gallagher got 3 years (I think he only served one though) for attacking a couple with a BASEBALL BAT. Look at him now, just signed for Aberdeen and a regular in Scotland squads.

[Block]

Perhaps, but he died at 57 with tons of health issues. A fantastic footballer, but definitely not the peak of physical fitness we see today.

These guys were fantastic footballers. I'm not doubting that. But they were fantastic vs the players of the 70s, and 80s. Not the ones of today. Would some have adapted and still been great? Yes. Radja Naingolan is a great player despite smoking a lot. But would he be ever better? Probably.

Its impossible to compare todays international elite game with those of the 60s 70s 80s.

Its a different game today as players are given incredibly much more protection from referees than back then. It was much more of a mans game back then. Today its a foul for placing a neutral hand on a player never mind go in for a strong lunging ball winning challenge. Players had a be men back then and learn to ride such challenges its why Maradona was the best player ever, he was not only strong but out of this world skillful. You had to be back then.

[MWHIBBIES]

Its impossible to compare todays international elite game with those of the 60s 70s 80s.

Its a different game today as players are given incredibly much more protection from referees than back then. It was much more of a mans game back then. Today its a foul for placing a neutral hand on a player never mind go in for a strong lunging ball winning challenge. Players had a be men back then and learn to ride such challenges its why Maradona was the best player ever, he was not only strong but out of this world skillful. You had to be back then.

Players now ride plenty of awful challenges. Ref protection isn't the cause of 20 more trophies, 400 more goals and more assists. He is just better.

You are massively exaggerating both eras, as well. Maradona wasnt getting 2 footed 8 times a match, and there are still plenty of strong tackles now.

[Gordy M]

Players now ride plenty of awful challenges. Ref protection isn't the cause of 20 more trophies, 400 more goals and more assists. He is just better.

You are massively exaggerating both eras, as well. Maradona wasnt getting 2 footed 8 times a match, and there are still plenty of strong tackles now.

The guy, Gentile i think, who broke Maradonas ankle at the world cup had the boot he did it with put in a glass case in his house.......not sure thats still happening, or being accepted as part of the game now, as it was then.

[MWHIBBIES]

The guy, Gentile i think, who broke Maradonas ankle at the world cup had the boot he did it with put in a glass case in his house.......not sure thats still happening, or being accepted as part of the game now, as it was then.

I understand that Diego had to deal with worse tackles, but the difference is much more than that.

[calumhibee1]

Its impossible to compare todays international elite game with those of the 60s 70s 80s.

Its a different game today as players are given incredibly much more protection from referees than back then. It was much more of a mans game back then. Today its a foul for placing a neutral hand on a player never mind go in for a strong lunging ball winning challenge. Players had a be men back then and learn to ride such challenges its why Maradona was the best player ever, he was not only strong but out of this world skillful. You had to be back then.

It really wasn’t all that bad or else all these guys would have spent half their careers out injured.

At a time when there was pretty much no sports science, cryochambers, ground breaking surgeries etc all these guys seemed to take some beating every week and remarkably avoid getting injured often. Something doesn’t quite add up..

[hibsbollah]

It really wasn’t all that bad or else all these guys would have spent half their careers out injured.

At a time when there was pretty much no sports science, cryochambers, ground breaking surgeries etc all these guys seemed to take some beating every week and remarkably avoid getting injured often. Something doesn’t quite add up..

You’re right. What all these chain smoking, fat footballers of yesteryear were doing was deliberately making their tackles look worse than they really were, in order to confuse blowhard bores of future generations who would then debate it multiple times on a new invention called the internet, it was a early form of trolling.

Something definitely doesn’t add up.

[660]

You’re right. What all these chain smoking, fat footballers of yesteryear were doing was deliberately making their tackles look worse than they really were, in order to confuse blowhard bores of future generations who would then debate it multiple times on a new invention called the internet, it was a early form of trolling.

Something definitely doesn’t add up.

I didn’t realise football existed before 1991 until I read this thread tbh.

[hibsbollah]

The guy, Gentile i think, who broke Maradonas ankle at the world cup had the boot he did it with put in a glass case in his house.......not sure thats still happening, or being accepted as part of the game now, as it was then.

It was a Bilbao player Goicoichea (that spellings not right but pronounced like that). Maradona got possibly a worse kicking in Spain than he did in Italy, after the broken ankle game Bilbao played Barca in the cup final later the same season, Diego totally lost it towards the end and does a flying kick at an opponent, then runs about swinging his boot at random Basques and a riot almost breaks out.

The recent ‘Diego’ documentary is great for archive footage. I saw it at the cinema but fairly sure it’s still on Netflix or prime.

[hibsbollah]

I didn’t realise football existed before 1991 until I read this thread tbh.

There was a version of the sport pre 91 but not as we know it. Keepers could pick up back passes, there was a limit on foreign players, and games were broken into quarters not halfs so Socrates or Cruyff or whatever fatty happened to be on the pitch could have a break for a bottle of sweetheart stout and a fly Benson and Hedges before resuming.

[stantonhibby]

You’re right. What all these chain smoking, fat footballers of yesteryear were doing was deliberately making their tackles look worse than they really were, in order to confuse blowhard bores of future generations who would then debate it multiple times on a new invention called the internet, it was a early form of trolling.

Something definitely doesn’t add up.

👍😀

[Eyrie]

You’re right. What all these chain smoking, fat footballers of yesteryear were doing was deliberately making their tackles look worse than they really were, in order to confuse blowhard bores of future generations who would then debate it multiple times on a new invention called the internet, it was a early form of trolling.

Something definitely doesn’t add up.

It was absolutely shocking watching games back then as players just flung themselves to the ground is search of a free kick as soon as they were close enough to an opponent to smell the alcohol/tobacco.

Not like now, when the elite athletes are man enough to ride ankle-shattering tackles or get straight back up afterwards.

[Gordy M]

It was a Bilbao player Goicoichea (that spellings not right but pronounced like that). Maradona got possibly a worse kicking in Spain than he did in Italy, after the broken ankle game Bilbao played Barca in the cup final later the same season, Diego totally lost it towards the end and does a flying kick at an opponent, then runs about swinging his boot at random Basques and a riot almost breaks out.

The recent ‘Diego’ documentary is great for archive footage. I saw it at the cinema but fairly sure it’s still on Netflix or prime.

Ah thats right, it was him, cheers

[MrSmith]

This is such a tough question! Can anything beat Archie Gemmil and his goal in 78’ WC? For me no but a standout and my personal favourite is, Marco Van Basten.

[calumhibee1]

You’re right. What all these chain smoking, fat footballers of yesteryear were doing was deliberately making their tackles look worse than they really were, in order to confuse blowhard bores of future generations who would then debate it multiple times on a new invention called the internet, it was a early form of trolling.

Something definitely doesn’t add up.

Why does it not surprise me that you can’t actually come up with something to explain a concept that really is totally illogical?

‘Players of old took some beating, players nowadays can only imagine it.’

Why did these players not got injured every other week? I mean they played on a cabbage patch of a pitch apparently and got assaulted with leg breaking challenges numerous times a game? All this without anything like the sports science and recovery technology we have now. Surely that’s the perfect storm for non stop injuries?

‘Ah cause they were real men eh, they kent how to ride a challenge’ doesn’t really cut it as an answer which is all that ever gets put forward to explain it.

It’s absolute nonsense. They really never took half the ‘beating’ people like to make out they did or they would never have played anywhere near the amount of games they did. They’d have spent the vast majority of their careers out injured.

[Peevemor]

In the 70s/80s (for example) did players play with injuries that would keep them out now?

Ist team squads were far smaller, only 2 substitutes were permitted per match and starting line-ups, from what I remember, seemed far more regular from week to week.

I read David Farrell's autobiography and he played through pain the majority of his career. Does that happen now?