Renaming streets

[CropleyWasGod]

There has been talk in recent days about re-naming some streets in Glasgow, in order to remove the names of merchants and others who made their money off the backs of the slaves that they owned.

So.... 1. Should be there a similar move in Edinburgh?

2. One for the historians, which I'm not but always keen to learn. What streets would be affected? I'll kick off with Melville Street and Drive, and his statue in St Andrews Square.

[lapsedhibee]

There has been talk in recent days about re-naming some streets in Glasgow, in order to remove the names of merchants and others who made their money off the backs of the slaves that they owned.

So.... 1. Should be there a similar move in Edinburgh?

2. One for the historians, which I'm not but always keen to learn. What streets would be affected? I'll kick off with Melville Street and Drive, and his statue in St Andrews Square.

Jamaica St, Antigua St? :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Jamaica St, Antigua St? :dunno:

Think they escape, as they were slave-worked colonies. I'm thinking more about the...checks notes....slave-owning capitalist *******s.

Did Robert Louis Stevenson own any slaves in Samoa? 🤔

[Betty Boop]

Dundas Street

[James310]

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/maps/britain

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not a fan of renaming streets and the like, I think there is a risk of whitewashing history (no pun intended).

Far better to give a more balanced view of history, educate people and explain how these people made their money. It's difficult to judge people by modern standards, they are a product of their time. Read the content of some of Abraham Lincolns speech and there is little doubt the man was a racist as an obviously paradoxical example.

There is a wonderful opportunity to point out to people how the world has moved on, how our standards now are higher and how we can still be better still.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/maps/britain

That map's already done away with Antigua St and renamed it Picardy Place.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/maps/britain

Thanks for that. Just dipped into it, but will no doubt return to it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Dundas Street

Knock the ****** off his perch as well!

[Betty Boop]

Knock the ****** off his perch as well!


Absolutely

[Glory Lurker]

Probably not on topic, but I can't get over how many statues we've got to folk who did a thing in the early 1800s. Big wow. Totally irrelevant and maybe a scrap metal value enough to pay for a few school books. Much more valuable to our city than some now pointless commemoration of people and things that have no relevance.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-52950006

[Pretty Boy]

Probably not on topic, but I can't get over how many statues we've got to folk who did a thing in the early 1800s. Big wow. Totally irrelevant and maybe a scrap metal value enough to pay for a few school books. Much more valuable to our city than some now pointless commemoration of people and things that have no relevance.

The Prince Albert statue in Charlotte Square always annoys me. Just why?

I don't mind the scientists, authors, social campaigners and the like who are commemorated. However a lot of the Royalty, military, religious and polictal statues seem little more than a reminder to people to 'know their place'.

[Jones28]

Probably not on topic, but I can't get over how many statues we've got to folk who did a thing in the early 1800s. Big wow. Totally irrelevant and maybe a scrap metal value enough to pay for a few school books. Much more valuable to our city than some now pointless commemoration of people and things that have no relevance.

Self funded, or even by their estate?

[Glory Lurker]

The Prince Albert statue in Charlotte Square always annoys me. Just why?

I don't mind the scientists, authors, social campaigners and the like who are commemorated. However a lot of the Royalty, military, religious and polictal statues seem little more than a reminder to people to 'know their place'.

Who? :-)

I'm not as accommodating as you. Loads of statues are of folk hardly anyone knows now. It's a Georgian/Victorian thing inspired by Greece and Rome. If the geezer (and only two Edinburgh statues are female) isn't a commonly-known name now, sell him and buy books.

[Glory Lurker]

Self funded, or even by their estate?

Or public subscription? I genuinely don't care. Loads of them did their thing but aren't scratching relevance now. I'm all for preserving stuff, but a lot of statues are just "there". What did a lot of them do that actually affects us now? Why should the council have to spend a penny maintaining them?

[judas]

i think we should resist street name changes.

I don’t think history should be erased, rewritten, airbrushed or supplanted.

[PaulSmith]

Renaming streets and tearing down statues. Honestly, the world has gone mad or should that actually be that everyone just so needs to be offended these days and they just have to make a statement.

Racism is disgusting, it has no place in modern society. I hate the right wing bigots with some gusto but I’m beginning to think the left wing lunatics actually pose a greater threat to a civilised society.

Their complete contempt to any law and order, the self righteousness, the “I want I want” and their absolute desire to tear down society is as dangerous as the maniacs at the other end of the spectrum.

Wheres the voice for the tens of millions of good folk, the ones who are hard working, fair and just want to live their life in a non confrontational way that respects everyone in the society?

[Tomsk]

Or public subscription? I genuinely don't care. Loads of them did their thing but aren't scratching relevance now. I'm all for preserving stuff, but a lot of statues are just "there". What did a lot of them do that actually affects us now? Why should the council have to spend a penny maintaining them?

Who do you have in mind?

[Glory Lurker]

Renaming streets and tearing down statues. Honestly, the world has gone mad or should that actually be that everyone just so needs to be offended these days and they just have to make a statement.

Racism is disgusting, it has no place in modern society. I hate the right wing bigots with some gusto but I’m beginning to think the left wing lunatics actually pose a greater threat to a civilised society.

Their complete contempt to any law and order, the self righteousness, the “I want I want” and their absolute desire to tear down society is as dangerous as the maniacs at the other end of the spectrum.

Wheres the voice for the tens of millions of good folk, the ones who are hard working, fair and just want to live their life in a non confrontational way that respects everyone in the society?

Is it essential to the cohesion of society that street names don't ever, ever change?

See Leith, post-1920.

[Glory Lurker]

Who do you have in mind?

Fair few around the Gardens and around the first phase of the New Town.

[Glory Lurker]

Oh, particularly George 4. A statue to the fact that our monarchs didn't care enough about us to come up here post-1707 until 18- something. And our obsequious predecessors went mad for it! And he showed he cared by wearing a kilt! And tights! Cheerio, and thanks for the books.

[LancashireHibby]

Renaming streets and tearing down statues. Honestly, the world has gone mad or should that actually be that everyone just so needs to be offended these days and they just have to make a statement.

Racism is disgusting, it has no place in modern society. I hate the right wing bigots with some gusto but I’m beginning to think the left wing lunatics actually pose a greater threat to a civilised society.

Their complete contempt to any law and order, the self righteousness, the “I want I want” and their absolute desire to tear down society is as dangerous as the maniacs at the other end of the spectrum.

Wheres the voice for the tens of millions of good folk, the ones who are hard working, fair and just want to live their life in a non confrontational way that respects everyone in the society?
Indeed. Extremism is a problem, regardless of which side of the political spectrum it originates from. History is not pretty, but it is part of the fabric that makes the world we live in. Though we could do with doing a system restore at some point soon...

[Glory Lurker]

It's not the world going mad, it's just the world moving on.

[PaulSmith]

Is it essential to the cohesion of society that street names don't ever, ever change?

See Leith, post-1920.

Yeah cause changing a street name makes a world of difference. Everyone wants to be offended and something as trivial as a street name in Edinburgh is taking the biscuit.

Its absolute lunacy bordering on hysteria.

The mad thing is that you’ll probably get your way as the people running Edinburgh/Scotland will in turn be frightened of saying no.

Edinburgh will be such a more tolerant inclusive city by renaming Dundas Street right enough. Spending money that actually could’ve been better spent on improving the life’s that you are so desperate to improve.

[PaulSmith]

It's not the world going mad, it's just the world moving on.

you can move on without demanding that statues and streets are renamed. I suggest that it’s people like you that actually haven’t moved on by harping on about street names from 200 years ago..

[Glory Lurker]

Yeah cause changing a street name makes a world of difference. Everyone wants to be offended and something as trivial as a street name in Edinburgh is taking the biscuit.

Its absolute lunacy bordering on hysteria.

The mad thing is that you’ll probably get your way as the people running Edinburgh/Scotland will in turn be frightened of saying no.

Edinburgh will be such a more tolerant inclusive city by renaming Dundas Street right enough. Spending money that actually could’ve been better spent on improving the life’s that you are so desperate to improve.

The world moved on. People think different things as the centuries pass.

[Glory Lurker]

you can move on without demanding that statues and streets are renamed. I suggest that it’s people like you that actually haven’t moved on by harping on about street names from 200 years ago..

Trust me, chief. I'm not demanding statues be taken down, I'm just expressing my opinion on a sub-forum on a football forum after a few drinks. I have no opinion on street names.

[PaulSmith]

The world moved on. People think different things as the centuries pass.

Of course it has and for the better.

Renaming streets in Edinburgh though. Really, what difference does make to anyone, do you think that there’s anyone in Edinburgh offended by Dundas Street other than some who have read history from 200 years ago and then think its relevant now to rename it.

Save your energy for making the world a better place. This is misguided self interested crap which needs put in the bin.

[Glory Lurker]

Of course it has and for the better.

Renaming streets in Edinburgh though. Really, what difference does make to anyone, do you think that there’s anyone in Edinburgh offended by Dundas Street other than some who have read history from 200 years ago and then think its relevant now to rename it.

Save your energy for making the world a better place. This is misguided self interested crap which needs put in the bin.

Point me to where I said streets should be renamed.

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course it has and for the better.

Renaming streets in Edinburgh though. Really, what difference does make to anyone, do you think that there’s anyone in Edinburgh offended by Dundas Street other than some who have read history from 200 years ago and then think its relevant now to rename it.

Save your energy for making the world a better place. This is misguided self interested crap which needs put in the bin.

Agreed.

Johnson,B.
Hitler Place
Muirhouse

[lapsedhibee]

Not only should Dundas Street not be renamed, it should also not be flattened out, as the Edinburgh cycling lobby is demanding. Let them get e-bikes if they can't be arsed pechin up the hill!

[bigwheel]

I can see nothing wrong with marking statues properly . Such as Dundas statue. If he has been preeminent in prolonging the slave trade, let’s say so.

Also, why not change the street names . It would be the mark of respect as Dundas (for example) had been a material part of that terrible trade in humans, causing many many unnecessary deaths. It would be a small symbolic act of respect.


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[Keith_M]

Queen St, Princes St, George St.... in fact, anywhere named after royalty, dukes and duchesses, etc.

[The Modfather]

Yeah cause changing a street name makes a world of difference. Everyone wants to be offended and something as trivial as a street name in Edinburgh is taking the biscuit.

Its absolute lunacy bordering on hysteria.

The mad thing is that you’ll probably get your way as the people running Edinburgh/Scotland will in turn be frightened of saying no.

Edinburgh will be such a more tolerant inclusive city by renaming Dundas Street right enough. Spending money that actually could’ve been better spent on improving the life’s that you are so desperate to improve.

Ironically you appear to be the one getting most worked up about this subject on this thread.

I’m less in favour of renaming streets etc out of simple selfishness and having to learn/remember the new names. I would guess that 99% of the people of Edinburgh couldn’t tell you who most of the statues and streets are named after, far less identify the ones who profited from the slave trade. Without trivialising or downplaying the likes of Black Lives Matter. I see the renaming thing as a symptom of the current in vogue cause for people to get behind, before they forget about the issue again as it becomes less prominent in the news etc.

For the avoidance of doubt, I was merely commenting on what I see as the trend of society to get on board with the latest prominent issue before it’s forgotten about and replaced by the next prominent issue, rather than any comment on Black Lives Matter itself.

Let’s melt down all statues and replace them with ones that are relevant like Paul Weller, The Who, The Beatles & Sir David Gray :)

[PaulSmith]

Ironically you appear to be the one getting most worked up about this subject on this thread.

I’m less in favour of renaming streets etc out of simple selfishness and having to learn/remember the new names. I would guess that 99% of the people of Edinburgh couldn’t tell you who most of the statues and streets are named after, far less identify the ones who profited from the slave trade. Without trivialising or downplaying the likes of Black Lives Matter. I see the renaming thing as a symptom of the current in vogue cause for people to get behind, before they forget about the issue again as it becomes less prominent in the news etc.

For the avoidance of doubt, I was merely commenting on what I see as the trend of society to get on board with the latest prominent issue before it’s forgotten about and replaced by the next prominent issue, rather than any comment on Black Lives Matter itself.

Let’s melt down all statues and replace them with ones that are relevant like Paul Weller, The Who, The Beatles & Sir David Gray :)

I didn’t think it was ironic at all, I think it’s lunacy and needed to be called out for exactly that.

I’m all for statues of the latter mentioned icons!

[Berwickhibby]

I didn’t think it was ironic at all, I think it’s lunacy and needed to be called out for exactly that.

I’m all for statues of the latter mentioned icons!

Only if Joe Strummer is added 🎤

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I am not in favour of renaming streets. Whether it is good or bad , the connotation or the reasons for some street names are almost lost in the past and maybe it is better that they stay as they as indictments of how we used to be rather than how we are now.

[Bostonhibby]

I am not in favour of renaming streets. Whether it is good or bad , the connotation or the reasons for some street names are almost lost in the past and maybe it is better that they stay as they as indictments of how we used to be rather than how we are now.Nor me, there's always going to be someone who wants to be offended by a name unless something really bland is chosen or just number them?

As for the statues, why not just gather every statue together and put them all in one place?

Those that want to see them know where they are, and so do those who want to avoid them.

Means there'll never be a lonely statue again. I'm going to suggest the grandiose sounding Tynecastle park Piazza as an ideal location. Other Piazzas are available.

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[McD]

I don’t think renaming streets is the right way to go, far better to educate on the wrongdoings of the past, than to whitewash history, which is what it is.

as for the statues, they are a part of Edinburgh’s charm, and most of the areas they can be found are of the same generation, they are part of the history of the period. Much has been spoken about the redevelopment of princes street and st James area ruining the historical nature of them, I know statues are not quite the same as buildings but I’d argue it’s a similar theme.

[hibsbollah]

Racism is disgusting, it has no place in modern society. I hate the right wing bigots with some gusto but I’m beginning to think the left wing lunatics actually pose a greater threat to a civilised society.

Their complete contempt to any law and order, the self righteousness, the “I want I want” and their absolute desire to tear down society is as dangerous as the maniacs at the other end of the spectrum.

Wheres the voice for the tens of millions of good folk, the ones who are hard working, fair and just want to live their life in a non confrontational way that respects everyone in the society?

Youre ‘beginning to think’ all of this? At what point did this conversion start to happen? Based on your previous posts I suspect you’ve been consistent in this belief (good folk/hard working/fair and just’=right wing,vs. lawless contemptuous arrogant left wing’) for quite a long time. By this analysis Dom Cummings must be the most left wing man alive.

I agree that renaming streets smacks of tokenism, I’m not really concerned about that vs real substantial political change. The best thing about Glasgow renaming that square as Nelson Mandela Square is it boiled the piss of the previous 1980s generation of dinosaurs. For that alone it was worthwhile.

[Killiehibbie]

Youre ‘beginning to think’ all of this? At what point did this conversion start to happen? Based on your previous posts I suspect you’ve been consistent in this belief (good folk/hard working/fair and just’=right wing,vs. lawless contemptuous arrogant left wing’) for quite a long time. By this analysis Dom Cummings must be the most left wing man alive.

I agree that renaming streets smacks of tokenism, I’m not really concerned about that vs real substantial political change. The best thing about Glasgow renaming that square as Nelson Mandela Square is it boiled the piss of the previous 1980s generation of dinosaurs. For that alone it was worthwhile.

Was it not just a little Place they named after him?
They should have done the decent thing and renamed George Square.

[lapsedhibee]

A street name needn't last longer than a month. People will cope if it disappears. Here's one in Scarborough: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214349/Footpath-honour-Jimmy-Savile-stripped-connection-just-month-named.html

[Pretty Boy]

Was it not just a little Place they named after him?
They should have done the decent thing and renamed George Square.

The renamed St George's Place as Nelson Mandela Place because the South African consulate was based there.

The symbolism of mail for the consulate being sent to an address named for the most high profile anti apartheid campaigner made it a worthy choice.

[Hibby Bairn]

Youre ‘beginning to think’ all of this? At what point did this conversion start to happen? Based on your previous posts I suspect you’ve been consistent in this belief (good folk/hard working/fair and just’=right wing,vs. lawless contemptuous arrogant left wing’) for quite a long time. By this analysis Dom Cummings must be the most left wing man alive.

I agree that renaming streets smacks of tokenism, I’m not really concerned about that vs real substantial political change. The best thing about Glasgow renaming that square as Nelson Mandela Square is it boiled the piss of the previous 1980s generation of dinosaurs. For that alone it was worthwhile.

Tokenism at its best. 40 years later and poverty in Glasgow remains. Housing schemes still a disgrace. Drugs worse than ever. Sectarianism and territory-ism (gangs) still par for the course.

But we renamed a street.

Maybe we should rename Dundas Street, George Floyd Street. That will make everything better. What’s worse?...a man linked to slavery or a guy who pointed a gun at a pregnant women’s stomach whilst involved in a gang robbery.

As for the protests. I get that. But not at the expense of the health of everyone else in the country.

Police scared to deal with it with any aggression cos its a race issue.

[Smartie]

Whitewashing history isn’t a good idea.

By keeping the streets as they are it is hardly a gesture promoting the reestablishment of the slave trade.

I think it’s better to have the “did you know Dundas was a dick? Aye, that’s what we used to be like, you’d get streets named after you and all sorts. Humans can be horrifically evil to one another, we must never go back there.”

I wonder what we’ll think about these times in future and what we’ll look back on with most consternation?

Eating meat? Capitalism’s tendency to reward the most ruthless and unpleasant the most? Climate change denial? Populism? (A bit of a link there.)

[Killiehibbie]

The renamed St George's Place as Nelson Mandela Place because the South African consulate was based there.

The symbolism of mail for the consulate being sent to and address named for the most high profile anti apartheid campaigner made it a worthy choice.

That makes sense. i always thought 'is that all they could spare' whenever i drove along there.

[Pretty Boy]

Tokenism at its best. 40 years later and poverty in Glasgow remains. Housing schemes still a disgrace. Drugs worse than ever. Sectarianism and territory-ism (gangs) still par for the course.

But we renamed a street.

Maybe we should rename Dundas Street, George Floyd Street. That will make everything better. What’s worse?...a man linked to slavery or a guy who pointed a gun at a pregnant women’s stomach whilst involved in a gang robbery.

As for the protests. I get that. But not at the expense of the health of everyone else in the country.

Police scared to deal with it with any aggression cos its a race issue.

Are you really asking if a single act of violence is worse than profiting from the exploitation and transportation of over 2 million people and the inevitable deaths that sit alongside that? Actions with consequences that can still be seen in the US, Africa and elsewhere to this day.

Is there any other source than Candace Owens for the pregnant lady story? It seems to stem from her and others have run with it but I can't find any official documentation to confirm it's truth.

[Killiehibbie]

Are you really asking if a single act of violence is worse than profiting from the exploitation and transportation of over 2 million people and the inevitable deaths that sit alongside that? Actions with consequences that can still be seen in the US, Africa and elsewhere to this day.

Is there any other source than Candace Owens for the pregnant lady story? It seems to stem from her and others have run with it but I can't find any official documentation to confirm it's truth.

Pregnant drug dealing woman from what I read.

[hibsbollah]

a guy who pointed a gun at a pregnant women’s stomach whilst involved in a gang robbery.
.

This is the most revealing part of your post. Do you want to expand on it?

[G B Young]

Why stop at street names? If we want to airbrush Edinburgh's strong links to the slave trade then we'd need to lay waste to the New Town, demolishing the likes of the Assembly Rooms and Bute House. Or how about widening the scope and tearing down Glasgow University?

Statues, buildings, street names...to simply get rid of them just because we don't agree with what would have been the prevailing public outlook of the time has the potential to obscure our understanding of history. They should be a focus for debate rather than destruction. Removing them doesn't change the story of how our city was shaped.

[bigwheel]

Why stop at street names? If we want to airbrush Edinburgh's strong links to the slave trade then we'd need to lay waste to the New Town, demolishing the likes of the Assembly Rooms and Bute House. Or how about widening the scope and tearing down Glasgow University?

Statues, buildings, street names...to simply get rid of them just because we don't agree with what would have been the prevailing public outlook of the time has the potential to obscure our understanding of history. They should be a focus for debate rather than destruction. Removing them doesn't change the story of how our city was shaped.

Do you really see changing a street name as a symbol against slavery as destruction or even negative ? It won’t solve the past , but why is it a bad thing ...

the argument of “we would have to change loads of things “ just seems like creating reasons for not making any positive acts. Sometimes making a small but positive point is enough

[Ozyhibby]

There has been talk in recent days about re-naming some streets in Glasgow, in order to remove the names of merchants and others who made their money off the backs of the slaves that they owned.

So.... 1. Should be there a similar move in Edinburgh?

2. One for the historians, which I'm not but always keen to learn. What streets would be affected? I'll kick off with Melville Street and Drive, and his statue in St Andrews Square.


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[Peevemor]

Why stop at slavery? Why not erase the memory of those involved in colonialism too?

How many street names would we have left?

[lapsedhibee]

Why stop at slavery? Why not erase the memory of those involved in colonialism too?

How many street names would we have left?

Almost all of them. But not Jamaica St and Antigua St (Bandparts RIP).

[PaulSmith]

https://twitter.com/holbornlolz/status/1269541648683487232?s=21

[CropleyWasGod]

Why stop at slavery? Why not erase the memory of those involved in colonialism too?

How many street names would we have left?

How about organised religion?

No more Easter Road (insert fishing smiley)

[greenlex]

Why stop at slavery? Why not erase the memory of those involved in colonialism too?

How many street names would we have left?
Just do what they did in Newtongrange back in the the day. First street.Second street.Third street. The Square etc etc

[greenlex]

There has been talk in recent days about re-naming some streets in Glasgow, in order to remove the names of merchants and others who made their money off the backs of the slaves that they owned.

So.... 1. Should be there a similar move in Edinburgh?

2. One for the historians, which I'm not but always keen to learn. What streets would be affected? I'll kick off with Melville Street and Drive, and his statue in St Andrews Square.
If they naming them more in line with today’s culture rather than the past then that’s a good thing. They could rename some of them fenian street or dirty orange ******* square and the likes.

[bigwheel]

I can’t understand why people would be against a statue having a plaque outlining the fuller impact of the individual , or one or two streets being re-named to recognise that we stand against the slave trade.

Why are people against it ? Genuine question...What’s so wrong with acknowledging the past - its not essential, yet neither does it have to be exaggerated or exhaustive..it’s simply symbolic - a mark of respect .

[Hibby Bairn]

I can’t understand why people would be against a statue having a plaque outlining the fuller impact of the individual , or one or two streets being re-named to recognise that we stand against the slave trade.

Why are people against it ? Genuine question...What’s so wrong with acknowledging the past - its not essential, yet neither does it have to be exaggerated or exhaustive..it’s simply symbolic - a mark of respect .

Who says anyone is against it?

Just that that there are MUCH bigger and more important things to be dealing with right now than putting plaques up or renaming streets.

Starting off with why tens of thousands of people think it is OK to congregate together in the midst of a global pandemic and then return home to houses and workplaces, relatives and children.

When MOST of us can't sit with our extended families in our houses for a cup of tea. Or when MOST of us have missed family birthdays or funerals or weddings or births because we have been doing what has been asked of us for 80 days.

And we sit and watch these people think it is OK to go and do this. Completely irresponsible.

[bigwheel]

Who says anyone is against it?

Just that that there are MUCH bigger and more important things to be dealing with right now than putting plaques up or renaming streets.

Starting off with why tens of thousands of people think it is OK to congregate together in the midst of a global pandemic and then return home to houses and workplaces, relatives and children.

When MOST of us can't sit with our extended families in our houses for a cup of tea. Or when MOST of us have missed family birthdays or funerals or weddings or births because we have been doing what has been asked of us for 80 days.

And we sit and watch these people think it is OK to go and do this. Completely irresponsible.

People seem to be against it , on this thread ..

No one says it has to be done now ...there are many complex topics in society today . Why are you relating these two ?

[G B Young]

Do you really see changing a street name as a symbol against slavery as destruction or even negative ? It won’t solve the past , but why is it a bad thing ...

the argument of “we would have to change loads of things “ just seems like creating reasons for not making any positive acts. Sometimes making a small but positive point is enough

Enough for what? To say modern-day Edinburgh played its part in disowning its slave-profiteering/colonial past by renaming a street?

I'm all for educational debate about Edinburgh's past but if anyone's actually serious about trying to edit out the aspects of our city's history that are now regarded as distasteful, simply renaming a street would strike me as little more than smug tokenism/virtue signalling when our First Minister's official residence is among the many flagship buildings in the city constructed from the profits of slavery.

Whether its taking down a street sign or bringing in the bulldozers, our history can't be obliterated. We'll benefit more from living and learning from it than trying to wish it away.

[bigwheel]

Enough for what? To say modern-day Edinburgh played its part in disowning its slave-profiteering/colonial past by renaming a street?

I'm all for educational debate about Edinburgh's past but if anyone's actually serious about trying to edit out the aspects of our city's history that are now regarded as distasteful, simply renaming a street would strike me as little more than smug tokenism/virtue signalling when our First Minister's official residence is among the many flagship buildings in the city constructed from the profits of slavery.

Whether its taking down a street sign or bringing in the bulldozers, our history can't be obliterated. We'll benefit more from living and learning from it than trying to wish it away.

“ Smug tokenism” Very negative tone that ..why the “smug” part I wonder ...

And as for the “wishing it away” point - thats your narrative - no one else’s

[hibsbollah]

Enough for what? To say modern-day Edinburgh played its part in disowning its slave-profiteering/colonial past by renaming a street?

I'm all for educational debate about Edinburgh's past but if anyone's actually serious about trying to edit out the aspects of our city's history that are now regarded as distasteful, simply renaming a street would strike me as little more than smug tokenism/virtue signalling when our First Minister's official residence is among the many flagship buildings in the city constructed from the profits of slavery.

Whether its taking down a street sign or bringing in the bulldozers, our history can't be obliterated. We'll benefit more from living and learning from it than trying to wish it away.

That phrase again.

Whether its become meaningless through online overuse, or it was always meaningless, is a moot point.
Basically, a catch all to criticise anyone attempting any sort of positive action in life.
I hate it.

[G B Young]

“ Smug tokenism” Very negative tone that ..why the “smug” part I wonder ...

And as for the “wishing it away” point - thats your narrative - no one else’s

Yes, maybe not the right choice of word. I was just looking for a phrase that equated to virtue signalling which, as hibsbollah has correctly pointed out, has become such a catch-all piece of jargon.

I do, however, think that there's an element of wishing away history when it comes to those who endorse obliterating physical traces of it.

[bigwheel]

Yes, maybe not the right choice of word. I was just looking for a phrase that equated to virtue signalling which, as hibsbollah has correctly pointed out, has become such a catch-all piece of jargon.

I do, however, think that there's an element of wishing away history when it comes to those who endorse obliterating physical traces of it.


I've never seen any view to wipe it away. Might be there - just not seen it personally. I'd leave the old signs there, under the new ones. I'd use it to create an ongoing conversation about it. It's not about wishing away history, but confronting it. I accept it is not holistic. But equally, why not support a small positive action?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/_jackgrey/status/1269625428400132096?s=21

Pulling down statues in Bristol. I can live with that.


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[LancashireHibby]

https://twitter.com/_jackgrey/status/1269625428400132096?s=21

Pulling down statues in Bristol. I can live with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Presumably they will now start tearing down the buildings that were built with the profits of the slave trade? Just doesn’t sit well with me. Removing parts of our shared history also removes our ability to learn from it.

[Ozyhibby]

Presumably they will now start tearing down the buildings that were built with the profits of the slave trade? Just doesn’t sit well with me. Removing parts of our shared history also removes our ability to learn from it.

Building have functional uses and can be renamed if that’s what people want. Statues are celebrating someone’s life and if we now no longer think that person deserves that then pull them down. We can learn from the act of pulling it down as well. It says we no longer think this behaviour is ok.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/darreneuronews/status/1269649376206639105?s=21

And dumped in the harbour as well. He’s not having a good day.[emoji23]


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[CapitalGreen]

https://twitter.com/holbornlolz/status/1269541648683487232?s=21

Sharing content from far right twitter accounts now 📝

[PaulSmith]

Sharing content from far right twitter accounts now ��

I've no idea, have I..it was on my timeline and thought it was quite apt.


I assume that you are suggesting that I am now linked with the 'far right'.....how very, very wrong you are.


Edit - it seems as I thought that anyone is game for this particular comedian.

Comedian. Breaking News. Satire. Humour. Politics. Free Speech. A Libertarian Legend . Also Tweets in German/French

[lord bunberry]

I quite like the idea of renaming streets. It’s an honour to have a street named after you and some people don’t deserve that honour. It’s not erasing history, it’s moving with the times. I started a thread about this a few years ago after someone had asked me who the guy was in St Andrews Square, I had to google it as I had no idea. I don’t get why people seem to get so hot and bothered about this, it’s only a street name.

[CapitalGreen]

I've no idea, have I..it was on my timeline and thought it was quite apt.


I assume that you are suggesting that I am now linked with the 'far right'.....how very, very wrong you are.


Edit - it seems as I thought that anyone is game for this particular comedian.

Comedian. Breaking News. Satire. Humour. Politics. Free Speech. A Libertarian Legend . Also Tweets in German/French

I’m not suggesting anything, typically if I am sharing content online I am more conscious of the source but that’s just me I suppose.

And you’re not wrong about anyone being fair game for him, in the past he has enjoyed joking about the victims or Hillsborough and Jamie Bulgar. Lovely Guy.

[CapitalGreen]

https://twitter.com/_jackgrey/status/1269625428400132096?s=21

Pulling down statues in Bristol. I can live with that.


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These slave traders weren’t slow to throw an ill or injured slave into the sea so I certainly won’t shed a tear if their statues end up there too.

[PaulSmith]

I’m not suggesting anything, typically if I am sharing content online I am more conscious of the source but that’s just me I suppose.

And you’re not wrong about anyone being fair game for him, in the past he has enjoyed joking about the victims or Hillsborough and Jamie Bulgar. Lovely Guy.

You are absolutely suggesting something, you know fine well what you've done.

For your information I actually saw it on Jim Spence's twitter feed, you know the left wing sports writer. He was able to get the satire but clearly you don't.


So please stick your link to my post with the 'far right' right up ye!

[Colr]

Of course it has and for the better.

Renaming streets in Edinburgh though. Really, what difference does make to anyone, do you think that there’s anyone in Edinburgh offended by Dundas Street other than some who have read history from 200 years ago and then think its relevant now to rename it.

Save your energy for making the world a better place. This is misguided self interested crap which needs put in the bin.

Maybe. But we also erect statues and name streets after people of whom we are proud. We are surely not proud of the slave trade!

[Ozyhibby]

Renaming Dundas Street as David Gray Street just feels like the right think to do.[emoji106]


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[Colr]

Renaming Dundas Street as David Gray Street just feels like the right think to do.[emoji106]


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Sir David Grey Street. Has a ring to it.

[LancashireHibby]

Building have functional uses and can be renamed if that’s what people want. Statues are celebrating someone’s life and if we now no longer think that person deserves that then pull them down. We can learn from the act of pulling it down as well. It says we no longer think this behaviour is ok.


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What if said buildings were built using profits from the slave trade?

[Scouse Hibee]

I quite like the idea of renaming streets. It’s an honour to have a street named after you and some people don’t deserve that honour. It’s not erasing history, it’s moving with the times. I started a thread about this a few years ago after someone had asked me who the guy was in St Andrews Square, I had to google it as I had no idea. I don’t get why people seem to get so hot and bothered about this, it’s only a street name.

Private hire drivers have enough trouble as it is😂

[bigwheel]

What if said buildings were built using profits from the slave trade?

It’s a symbolic act...saying “enough is enough” ..it’s not about dealing with every piece of infrastructure funded by slavery or colonisation. I suspect you know that though.

[Bristolhibby]

What if said buildings were built using profits from the slave trade?

Well in the case of the Colston Hall (massive venue in Bristol) after its renovation they are changing the name.

“We want to look to the future and ensure the whole city is proud of its transformed Hall. The name Colston, and its associations with the slave trade, does not reflect our values as a progressive, forward-thinking and open arts organisation.
We want everyone to feel like they can come to the Hall and enjoy amazing music.”

TBF people have been trying to remove the Colston statues and other relics for years now. I shed no tear that’s it’s gone. It was just easy in Council meetings to stall the idea of facing up to removing the statue.

Glad it’s gone.

J

[lord bunberry]

Private hire drivers have enough trouble as it is😂
That’s true :greengrin

[Hibby Bairn]

https://twitter.com/_jackgrey/status/1269625428400132096?s=21

Pulling down statues in Bristol. I can live with that.


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Nope. I don’t agree with this. Where does it stop? Folk offended by Churchill? Montgomery? Mandela? Ex- US Presidents? Royalty?

What if a republican group in Edinburgh decided to pull down the Queen Victoria statue at Kirkgate?

This is vandalism. By all means lobby for their removal but this is not the way to do it.

[Mon Dieu4]

Nope. I don’t agree with this. Where does it stop? Folk offended by Churchill? Montgomery? Mandela? Ex- US Presidents? Royalty?

What if a republican group in Edinburgh decided to pull down the Queen Victoria statue at Kirkgate?

This is vandalism. By all means lobby for their removal but this is not the way to do it.

All the royalists in Leith would be raging :faf:

Be more than happy for them to take it down and put up a statue of Darren McGregor or a big YLT sculpture

[Ozyhibby]

Nope. I don’t agree with this. Where does it stop? Folk offended by Churchill? Montgomery? Mandela? Ex- US Presidents? Royalty?

What if a republican group in Edinburgh decided to pull down the Queen Victoria statue at Kirkgate?

This is vandalism. By all means lobby for their removal but this is not the way to do it.

They said on the news that they had been lobbying for years to get this statue taken down but nothing had ever happened.


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[G B Young]

Well in the case of the Colston Hall (massive venue in Bristol) after its renovation they are changing the name.

“We want to look to the future and ensure the whole city is proud of its transformed Hall. The name Colston, and its associations with the slave trade, does not reflect our values as a progressive, forward-thinking and open arts organisation.
We want everyone to feel like they can come to the Hall and enjoy amazing music.”

TBF people have been trying to remove the Colston statues and other relics for years now. I shed no tear that’s it’s gone. It was just easy in Council meetings to stall the idea of facing up to removing the statue.

Glad it’s gone.

J

I wasn't aware of this guy until today, but I'm reading up on him now and it seems clear that the statue and the numerous streets and buildings named after him in Bristol (there's apparently an annual Colston Day celebration?) were not in tribute to his slave trading links, but due to the fact he left his entire fortune to charity, which saw numerous schools, hospitals and other public buildings built. The plaque on his statue describes him as "one of the most virtuous and wise sons of the city". Presumably Bristol was grateful to him back then, regardless of how he came by his fortune?

How divisive an issue is this in the city today? ie Is the desire to remove/rename things which honour him overwhelming or does it split opinion? The pulling down of the statue must have been a pre-meditated rather than a spontaneous act by those responsible.

[hibsbollah]

Nope. I don’t agree with this. Where does it stop? Folk offended by Churchill? Montgomery? Mandela? Ex- US Presidents? Royalty?

What if a republican group in Edinburgh decided to pull down the Queen Victoria statue at Kirkgate?

This is vandalism. By all means lobby for their removal but this is not the way to do it.

Ive just read up about Colston (this protest has certainly educated me about history last few days). He was personally responsible for 100,000 free men women and children being captured, put on those battery farm death ships, branded each man woman and child with a hot iron across the chest with the initials of his company and raped and tortured with impunity.

Up with the vandalism I say.

By contrast, Dundas merely was a tireless campaigner against repealing slavery (while apparently being an advocate of ‘enlightenment thinking’, and did a bit of financial jiggerypokery to line his own pockets.

[Hibby Bairn]

What about the defacing of the statue of Churchill today with the words “racist”. How would people feel if that was torn down today and chucked in the Thames?

[bigwheel]

I wasn't aware of this guy until today, but I'm reading up on him now and it seems clear that the statue and the numerous streets and buildings named after him in Bristol (there's apparently an annual Colston Day celebration?) were not in tribute to his slave trading links, but due to the fact he left his entire fortune to charity, which saw numerous schools, hospitals and other public buildings built. The plaque on his statue describes him as "one of the most virtuous and wise sons of the city". Presumably Bristol was grateful to him back then, regardless of how he came by his fortune?

How divisive an issue is this in the city today? ie Is the desire to remove/rename things which honour him overwhelming or does it split opinion? The pulling down of the statue must have been a pre-meditated rather than a spontaneous act by those responsible.

It’s a known issue. There has been active pressure to take that statue down ..it would certainly have been a potential target to those involved.

The UK’s establishment long supported colonialism and slavery - earned them the money that has secured status and power for their families in UK for many many years ..schools and hospitals shouldn’t repair the deaths of tens of thousand Africans. I’m not one for vandalism, but I won’t trouble myself over the actions of the protestors on this statue...

[marinello59]

Ive just read up about Colston (this protest has certainly educated me about history last few days). He was personally responsible for 100,000 free men women and children being captured, put on those battery farm death ships, branded each man woman and child with a hot iron across the chest with the initials of his company and raped and tortured with impunity.

Up with the vandalism I say.

By contrast, Dundas merely was a tireless campaigner against repealing slavery (while apparently being an advocate of ‘enlightenment thinking’, and did a bit of financial jiggerypokery to line his own pockets.

My worry is that all this will soon join Be Kind and outrage at Cummings as last weeks thing. And it shouldn’t.

[bigwheel]

What about the defacing of the statue of Churchill today with the words “racist”. How would people feel if that was torn down today and chucked in the Thames?

I wouldn’t support it - as I don’t support violence or vandalism ..but wouldn’t bat an eye at it

He was a known racist , supported the use of chemical weapons in Asia, supported the devastation of the North American Indians , accentuated famines in parts of the Indian continent to name but a few of his terrible acts

[Barney McGrew]

While I get the idea of moving with the times and changing street names, it does strike me as a bit tokenistic and within a generation people will have forgotten entirely that the name was different in the first place.

To me, it would be far better to include more Scottish history - good and bad - on the school curriculum so that future generations have a more rounded understanding of how we’ve ended up where we are now. That would have a far bigger impact IMO.

[Bristolhibby]

I wasn't aware of this guy until today, but I'm reading up on him now and it seems clear that the statue and the numerous streets and buildings named after him in Bristol (there's apparently an annual Colston Day celebration?) were not in tribute to his slave trading links, but due to the fact he left his entire fortune to charity, which saw numerous schools, hospitals and other public buildings built. The plaque on his statue describes him as "one of the most virtuous and wise sons of the city". Presumably Bristol was grateful to him back then, regardless of how he came by his fortune?

How divisive an issue is this in the city today? ie Is the desire to remove/rename things which honour him overwhelming or does it split opinion? The pulling down of the statue must have been a pre-meditated rather than a spontaneous act by those responsible.

Certainly amongst my friends and acquaintances it ranges from disgust (me) to ambivalence. Ie can’t be arsed either way.

There’s no two ways, Bristol was built on the blood and lives of slaves. The City is there because of this.

Having statues to the these people is not on. The Council has dragged its feet. No real drive to actually address the issue. It was discussed when I started university in Bristol back in 2001. 20 years later it was still there.

Guess the decisions been made now.

It would be terrible if they put it back up.

J

[Hibby Bairn]

Certainly amongst my friends and acquaintances it ranges from disgust (me) to ambivalence. Ie can’t be arsed either way.

There’s no two ways, Bristol was built on the blood and lives of slaves. The City is there because of this.

Having statues to the these people is not on. The Council has dragged its feet. No real drive to actually address the issue. It was discussed when I started university in Bristol back in 2001. 20 years later it was still there.

Guess the decisions been made now.

It would be terrible if they put it back up.

J

But took the legacy ££££. Be interesting to see how many refuse to go to the various buildings that were funded in his name.

[Bristolhibby]

But took the legacy ££££. Be interesting to see how many refuse to go to the various buildings that were funded in his name.

Like I said, the main Building names after him (The Colston Hall) is being renamed.

TBH, the Empire and our countries wealth was supercharged from ripping off brown people.

J

[ronaldo7]

Certainly amongst my friends and acquaintances it ranges from disgust (me) to ambivalence. Ie can’t be arsed either way.

There’s no two ways, Bristol was built on the blood and lives of slaves. The City is there because of this.

Having statues to the these people is not on. The Council has dragged its feet. No real drive to actually address the issue. It was discussed when I started university in Bristol back in 2001. 20 years later it was still there.

Guess the decisions been made now.

It would be terrible if they put it back up.

J

I remember seeing a tv programme following a group of people trying to get the Colston name removed from many areas of Bristol. It was back around 2016/17.

I'd wager they'll be having a wee drink tonight.

Any idea if they finally got rid of the name the Colston Hall after it's refurbishment?

EDIT: Just saw your post above. Any idea what the name is going to be?

[ronaldo7]

While I get the idea of moving with the times and changing street names, it does strike me as a bit tokenistic and within a generation people will have forgotten entirely that the name was different in the first place.

To me, it would be far better to include more Scottish history - good and bad - on the school curriculum so that future generations have a more rounded understanding of how we’ve ended up where we are now. That would have a far bigger impact IMO.

The Highland clearances and the Duke of Sutherland would be a good start.

[G B Young]

Certainly amongst my friends and acquaintances it ranges from disgust (me) to ambivalence. Ie can’t be arsed either way.

There’s no two ways, Bristol was built on the blood and lives of slaves. The City is there because of this.

Having statues to the these people is not on. The Council has dragged its feet. No real drive to actually address the issue. It was discussed when I started university in Bristol back in 2001. 20 years later it was still there.

Guess the decisions been made now.

It would be terrible if they put it back up.

J

Cheers. Interesting feedback.

I just read that in the most recent poll carried out by the Bristol Post a majority of those polled were against the removal of the statue though it doesn't say how many were polled. I get what you say about Bristol being especially 'in your face' when it comes to its slavery associations but I'm not sure that even in this case it should be up to demonstrators to decree whether city statues/monuments/buildings should be pulled down/defaced. As Hibby Bairn says it could set a very divisive precedent.

[Bristolhibby]

Google Maps ain’t wasting any time. LOL!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ7BcOTXQAEq8LC.jpg

J

[Kato]

I've never seen any view to wipe it away. Might be there - just not seen it personally. I'd leave the old signs there, under the new ones. I'd use it to create an ongoing conversation about it. It's not about wishing away history, but confronting it. I accept it is not holistic. But equally, why not support a small positive action?No lunacy attached to that type of education. In fact calling it lunacy is hysterical.

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[Kato]

Presumably they will now start tearing down the buildings that were built with the profits of the slave trade? Just doesn’t sit well with me. Removing parts of our shared history also removes our ability to learn from it.How can the buildings be equated to the statues?

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[patch1875]

Preferred when Snickers were Marathon’s ;-)

[Kato]

I quite like the idea of renaming streets. It’s an honour to have a street named after you and some people don’t deserve that honour. It’s not erasing history, it’s moving with the times. I started a thread about this a few years ago after someone had asked me who the guy was in St Andrews Square, I had to google it as I had no idea. I don’t get why people seem to get so hot and bothered about this, it’s only a street name.We should give Dublin Street it's original name.

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[ronaldo7]

Cheers. Interesting feedback.

I just read that in the most recent poll carried out by the Bristol Post a majority of those polled were against the removal of the statue though it doesn't say how many were polled. I get what you say about Bristol being especially 'in your face' when it comes to its slavery associations but I'm not sure that even in this case it should be up to demonstrators to decree whether statues/monuments/buildings should be pulled down/defaced. As Hibby Bairn says it could set a very divisive precedent.

I suppose the Hibs fans at least had a precedence when invading the pitch and demolishing the goals, just like the Tartan Army did at Wembley.

Sometimes, exuberance takes over, and people do the strangest things.:wink:

[Hibby Bairn]

How can the buildings be equated to the statues?

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Probably worse if they’ve been built using the profits of slavery.

But if we change the name of them it’ll make everything feel ok.

[Hibby Bairn]

Preferred when Snickers were Marathon’s ;-)

No question. And Opal Fruits were way ahead of Starburst.

[LancashireHibby]

How can the buildings be equated to the statues?

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Tear down the statues of those involved in slavery, but leave alone the buildings that were literally built from the profits of the slave trade? Seems the next logical step really given it seems nothing is off limits now.

Personally I’m finding it all a little uncomfortable that things are becoming so much more anarchic in recent days. Not only does it drag attention away from the validity of the protests, but it’s only a matter of time before extremists from the right begin to react and then it really will be chaos.

According to a Bristol Post article a couple of days ago, the petition for the removal of the statue was only on 4,000 signatures until the last week. In the current climate, I’ve no doubt at all that it would have carried through without today’s intervention and, to me at least, changing these things through proper process would carry much more weight.

[lapsedhibee]

I didn’t know that Robert Burns worked in the slave trade in Jamaica.

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery



Should certainly now stop naming wee rivers or streams after him. I'd stop short of filling them all in though.

[ronaldo7]

Tear down the statues of those involved in slavery, but leave alone the buildings that were literally built from the profits of the slave trade? Seems the next logical step really given it seems nothing is off limits now.

Personally I’m finding it all a little uncomfortable that things are becoming so much more anarchic in recent days. Not only does it drag attention away from the validity of the protests, but it’s only a matter of time before extremists from the right begin to react and then it really will be chaos.

According to a Bristol Post article a couple of days ago, the petition for the removal of the statue was only on 4,000 signatures until the last week. In the current climate, I’ve no doubt at all that it would have carried through without today’s intervention and, to me at least, changing these things through proper process would carry much more weight.

The most recent one had over 11,000

[Hibby Bairn]

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery

I didn’t know that Robert Burns accepted a position as a “negro driver” in a Jamaica sugar plantation. He was due to leave before his poems became his saviour.

Burns Night no more?

[LancashireHibby]

The most recent one had over 11,000
Which is why I specified “until the last week”. They weren’t exactly giving much time for it to be properly presented to the local council etc, were they?

My worry isn’t that it should have stayed up - far from it - but that we shouldn’t allow lawlessness and anarchy to rule over democracy and due process.

[Peevemor]

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery

I didn’t know that Robert Burns accepted a position as a “negro driver” in a Jamaica sugar plantation. He was due to leave before his poems became his saviour.

Burns Night no more?

We shouldn't judge things that happened in the 18th century by today's standards.

[ronaldo7]

Which is why I specified “until the last week”. They weren’t exactly giving much time for it to be properly presented to the local council etc, were they?

My worry isn’t that it should have stayed up - far from it - but that we shouldn’t allow lawlessness and anarchy to rule over democracy and due process.

I'm sure they've petitioned the council previously. As I said earlier, I watched a tv programme about Bristol and Colston back in 2016/17, and it's been going on well before that.

I get your bit about anarchy and democracy, but sometimes you need to break the rules to make them sit up and take notice.

[greenlex]

My worry is that all this will soon join Be Kind and outrage at Cummings as last weeks thing. And it shouldn’t.
Government happy with all this distraction for sure.

[PaulSmith]

I've changed my mind on this.

I fully support spending what will probably be millions of pounds to change every street name and tear down every statue of anyone in the 17, 18 or 1900's that didn't live up to the standards of these more enlighten times of 2020.

Meanwhile the inequality of everyone, BAME or white, living in the council schemes remains unchanged or perhaps actually they have less money to spend due to the aforementioned costs....who knows, lets just start with the street names and statues and we can deal with the here and now at a later date.

It's all good though, its the right thing to do to right the wrongs of 2 or 3 hundred years ago and we can all look ourselves in the mirror knowing what a difference we made.

Does anyone have a list of where we should start in Edinburgh, whom to petition or do we just destruct/deface them ourselves?

[LancashireHibby]

I'm sure they've petitioned the council previously. As I said earlier, I watched a tv programme about Bristol and Colston back in 2016/17, and it's been going on well before that.

I get your bit about anarchy and democracy, but sometimes you need to break the rules to make them sit up and take notice.
I’m sure a petition would have sailed through to be honest with the proper mobilisation online etc, and in doing so might have been the catalyst to have a full and proper review of this kind of thing throughout the country.

As an aside though, I’m starting to think I must be a bit naive in hoping that we can maintain faith in law and order. I’ve been shocked at how much acceptance and even encouragement from some quarters there has been for the violence towards police officers, vandalism of statues and the like, all amidst a global pandemic that quite frankly should still be scaring the whatsit out of people. I’m dreading the reaction that will come when the economy begins to really struggle over the next few months.

[ronaldo7]

I’m sure a petition would have sailed through to be honest with the proper mobilisation online etc, and in doing so might have been the catalyst to have a full and proper review of this kind of thing throughout the country.

As an aside though, I’m starting to think I must be a bit naive in hoping that we can maintain faith in law and order. I’ve been shocked at how much acceptance and even encouragement from some quarters there has been for the violence towards police officers, vandalism of statues and the like, all amidst a global pandemic that quite frankly should still be scaring the whatsit out of people. I’m dreading the reaction that will come when the economy begins to really struggle over the next few months.

Maintaining faith in law and order goes both ways. Policing is done by consent of the people, and when the people see those making the rules, bending/breaking the rules, what type of message does that send out.

I'm sure that most people in the country (Scotland) will adhere to our rule of law. Not sure about England though.

It's only just started, and we'll see more unrest as the year goes on.

[Hibby Bairn]

I've changed my mind on this.

I fully support spending what will probably be millions of pounds to change every street name and tear down every statue of anyone in the 17, 18 or 1900's that didn't live up to the standards of these more enlighten times of 2020.

Meanwhile the inequality of everyone, BAME or white, living in the council schemes remains unchanged or perhaps actually they have less money to spend due to the aforementioned costs....who knows, lets just start with the street names and statues and we can deal with the here and now at a later date.

It's all good though, its the right thing to do to right the wrongs of 2 or 3 hundred years ago and we can all look ourselves in the mirror knowing what a difference we made.

Does anyone have a list of where we should start in Edinburgh, whom to petition or do we just destruct/deface them ourselves?


I’m learning that both Bathgate Academy and Dollar Academy were built or funded using profits from slavery.

Let’s close them immediately. In fact let’s just burn them down whilst the kids are not at school.

Anarchy rules. OK? 😎

[Hibby Bairn]

We shouldn't judge things that happened in the 18th century by today's standards.

So is it still OK for us to have a wee dram every year on the 25th January?

Or will the BLM folks head to Galloway tomorrow and “burn” his cottage?

[CapitalGreen]

I've changed my mind on this.

I fully support spending what will probably be millions of pounds to change every street name and tear down every statue of anyone in the 17, 18 or 1900's that didn't live up to the standards of these more enlighten times of 2020.

Meanwhile the inequality of everyone, BAME or white, living in the council schemes remains unchanged or perhaps actually they have less money to spend due to the aforementioned costs....who knows, lets just start with the street names and statues and we can deal with the here and now at a later date.

It's all good though, its the right thing to do to right the wrongs of 2 or 3 hundred years ago and we can all look ourselves in the mirror knowing what a difference we made.

Does anyone have a list of where we should start in Edinburgh, whom to petition or do we just destruct/deface them ourselves?

Who on this thread has actually suggested changing every street name and tearing down every statue though? It seems you are using that hyperbole you have been critical of others in the past of using on other threads.

Most posters I’ve seen have been able to discuss the topic in a rational manner around what the pros and cons would be and whether they are for or against without resorting to becoming hysterical because people have a different opinion.

I personally feel a good approach was taken by Bristol with the Central Hall in their city centre when the name change was made as part of the redevelopment process.

[CapitalGreen]

I’m learning that both Bathgate Academy and Dollar Academy were built or funded using profits from slavery.


I think most people would agree that this is a positive to come out of discussions like these. We can’t re-write history but if we learn our history and learn from it then that is surely a good thing.

[bigwheel]

So is it still OK for us to have a wee dram every year on the 25th January?

Or will the BLM folks head to Galloway tomorrow and “burn” his cottage?

I’m wondering what point you’re trying to make with these posts. Are you against the black lives matter protests in totality ? As no one anywhere is suggesting burning down any buildings....


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[Bristolhibby]

Good interview here.

https://twitter.com/michaeljswalker/status/1269666068999569408?s=21

“Statues are about adoration, saying ‘this man was a great man and did great things’. That is not true. He was a slave trader and a murderer”.

J

[PaulSmith]

Who on this thread has actually suggested changing every street name and tearing down every statue though? It seems you are using that hyperbole you have been critical of others in the past of using on other threads.

Most posters I’ve seen have been able to discuss the topic in a rational manner around what the pros and cons would be and whether they are for or against without resorting to becoming hysterical because people have a different opinion.

I personally feel a good approach was taken by Bristol with the Central Hall in their city centre when the name change was made as part of the redevelopment process.

GC, I’m all aboard this. Whether its every street or statue or just a few I need to know which ones are a stain on this beautiful city of Edinburgh and which ones are offensive.

I know others are better versed in their history than me, perhaps you know some yourself and how we can right this terrible wrong?

[Hibby Bairn]

I’m wondering what point you’re trying to make with these posts. Are you against the black lives matter protests in totality ? As no one anywhere is suggesting burning down any buildings....


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I’m against mob rule, anarchy and civil disobedience in a civilised society. If we say it’s OK to pull down a statue in the centre of a UK city then it gives permission to do similar things elsewhere.

Let’s see what copycat stuff takes place over the next few days. There should be zero tolerance on this stuff imo. There is a way to effect change in a democracy. Anarchy and mob rule isn’t it.

[Bristolhibby]

Two posts caught my eye on Twitter.

Pulling down statues is as much a part of history as erecting them.

&

If you’re more concerned about ‘vandalism’ than you are about black people having to walk past a daily reminder that their ancestors were owned as ****ing property by the establishment of a country that continues to treat them like second class citizens, you’re a ****ing prick.

[Hibby Bairn]

I think most people would agree that this is a positive to come out of discussions like these. We can’t re-write history but if we learn our history and learn from it then that is surely a good thing.

I agree. But surely we cannot accept our educational institutions being built from the slave £££? There must be people from these schools who attended the rallies today. Surely they cannot accept entering the doors of a building that they know was built from the use of a whip?

What other buildings do we know of that carry a similar scourge?

[CapitalGreen]

GC, I’m all aboard this. Whether its every street or statue or just a few I need to know which ones are a stain on this beautiful city of Edinburgh and which ones are offensive.

I know others are better versed in their history than me, perhaps you know some yourself and how we can right this terrible wrong?

You’re all aboard what exactly? You’ve gone off the deep end with this false position that nobody on this thread has actually taken because you seem to possess the same ability rationally debate as a young child. Most posters on this board seem to have the ability to debate topics in a friendly manner and accept others viewpoints even if they are strongly challenged. However you seem to take a personal affront and throw your toys out the pram if people don’t share your views.

[CropleyWasGod]

GC, I’m all aboard this. Whether its every street or statue or just a few I need to know which ones are a stain on this beautiful city of Edinburgh and which ones are offensive.

I know others are better versed in their history than me, perhaps you know some yourself and how we can right this terrible wrong?

There was a link posted early in the thread. That will tell you all you need to know.

[PaulSmith]

You’re all aboard what exactly? You’ve gone off the deep end with this false position that nobody on this thread has actually taken because you seem to possess the same ability rationally debate as a young child. Most posters on this board seem to have the ability to debate topics in a friendly manner and accept others viewpoints even if they are strongly challenged. However you seem to take a personal affront and throw your toys out the pram if people don’t share your views.

I’m all aboard any suggestion to tear down statues and change street names.

Unless I’ve stumbled across a different thread I thought this was what was being discussed?

[CapitalGreen]

I agree. But surely we cannot accept our educational institutions being built from the slave £££? There must be people from these schools who attended the rallies today. Surely they cannot accept entering the doors of a building that they know was built from the use of a whip?

What other buildings do we know of that carry a similar scourge?

Nobody has suggested tearing down buildings or not using buildings funded by the slave trade. Surely you can recognise the difference between a building that has utility, providing a benefit to society and a statue celebrating the life of someone who was responsible for the early deaths and enslavement of thousands of men, woman and children.

At the end of WW2 were the allied forces wrong to remove Nazi symbology from the buildings of Berlin but leave the (relatively) intact buildings still standing?

[PaulSmith]

There was a link posted early in the thread. That will tell you all you need to know.

Brilliant, what’s the next steps?

[bigwheel]

I’m against mob rule, anarchy and civil disobedience in a civilised society. If we say it’s OK to pull down a statue in the centre of a UK city then it gives permission to do similar things elsewhere.

Let’s see what copycat stuff takes place over the next few days. There should be zero tolerance on this stuff imo. There is a way to effect change in a democracy. Anarchy and mob rule isn’t it.

I’m against violence and vandalism too...but I’m also against prejudice and oppression. Democracy hasn’t helped those causes too much in recent years. Where are you on the systemic oppression of black community and other races around the world ?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Brilliant, what’s the next steps?

Reading it.

[Colr]

So is it still OK for us to have a wee dram every year on the 25th January?

Or will the BLM folks head to Galloway tomorrow and “burn” his cottage?

Galloway?

[CropleyWasGod]

Galloway?

That's the problem with airbrushing history 😁

[Ozyhibby]

I’m against mob rule, anarchy and civil disobedience in a civilised society. If we say it’s OK to pull down a statue in the centre of a UK city then it gives permission to do similar things elsewhere.

Let’s see what copycat stuff takes place over the next few days. There should be zero tolerance on this stuff imo. There is a way to effect change in a democracy. Anarchy and mob rule isn’t it.

Riots work. Lots of positive change has happened previously as a result of riots.


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[The Modfather]

Riots work. Lots of positive change has happened previously as a result of riots.


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I probably agree in principle, but , for example, not sure the English riots of a few years ago changed anything at all.

As I and others have said in this thread, I suspect the Black Lives Matter movement will soon lose traction outside America and the majority of those will move on to the next thing that comes up. Much like Prince Andrew, Cummings etc, there’s a lot of initial anger then as the issue slips quietly into the background folk begin to forget and focus on something else.

[Hibby Bairn]

Nobody has suggested tearing down buildings or not using buildings funded by the slave trade. Surely you can recognise the difference between a building that has utility, providing a benefit to society and a statue celebrating the life of someone who was responsible for the early deaths and enslavement of thousands of men, woman and children.

At the end of WW2 were the allied forces wrong to remove Nazi symbology from the buildings of Berlin but leave the (relatively) intact buildings still standing?

No I can’t. If that building was funded by a man whose life should not be celebrated (because he made his money from slavery) then I cannot see how the building can function. Surely there is blood on its bricks?

It was me who pulled the statue down btw. I’m just challenging the thought process of protestors.

I hate Colston. Loved pulling down his vile statue. But I’m going to use the library, hospital, school or whatever he funded tomorrow. It’ll be ok soon anyway cos we’re going to rename it George Floyd House.

It’s all bollocks.

[Hibby Bairn]

Galloway?

Whatever. I’m not up on Robert Burns history.

But the question is....if our national bard has links to slavery on plantations in Jamaica in the 18th century should we not disown our celebrated association with him. Just for consistency?

Or is that different?

[CropleyWasGod]

Whatever. I’m not up on Robert Burns history.

But the question is....if our national bard has links to slavery on plantations in Jamaica in the 18th century should we not disown our celebrated association with him. Just for consistency?

Or is that different?

This might help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-38648878

[Hibby Bairn]

Riots work. Lots of positive change has happened previously as a result of riots.


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I’m watching some of these “riots” on London’s streets. A young terrified WPC running from a hooded mob. Chucking bottles and stones at her and her colleagues.

Absolutely disgraceful.

[Hibby Bairn]

This might help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-38648878

Aye. But before he struck it lucky with his poetry did he accept a job on a plantation?

[CapitalGreen]

No I can’t. If that building was funded by a man whose life should not be celebrated (because he made his money from slavery) then I cannot see how the building can function. Surely there is blood on its bricks?

It was me who pulled the statue down btw. I’m just challenging the thought process of protestors.

I hate Colston. Loved pulling down his vile statue. But I’m going to use the library, hospital, school or whatever he funded tomorrow. It’ll be ok soon anyway cos we’re going to rename it George Floyd House.

It’s all bollocks.

You ignored my question about Berlin at the end of WW2, do you disagree with the actions of the allied forces? Should the allied forces have destroyed the remaining Nazi buildings in Berlin instead of just removing the symbols?

Perhaps they realised the buildings still had utility for the people of Germany despite how they were built but the symbols celebrating the Nazis had no value or purpose and preserving them would disrespect the victims of their heinous acts?

[CapitalGreen]

I’m watching some of these “riots” on London’s streets. A young terrified WPC running from a hooded mob. Chucking bottles and stones at her and her colleagues.

Absolutely disgraceful.

I don’t think you’ll find many/any posters on this thread who would condone that behaviour and disagree that it is disgraceful. I’m not sure if it’s relevance to the topic of renaming streets though.

[CropleyWasGod]

Aye. But before he struck it lucky with his poetry did he accept a job on a plantation?

Without direct input from the man, I'm not going to judge him. But that article suggests some sort of redemption, and admiration from those who are better placed than me.

[G B Young]

Like I said, the main Building names after him (The Colston Hall) is being renamed.

TBH, the Empire and our countries wealth was supercharged from ripping off brown people.

J

Just came across this (lengthy) BBC article which gives an interesting cross-section of views. It says that an amended plaque, which was to include reference to how Colston and numerous other wealthy Bristolians made their money, was set to be added to the statue. Did this ever happen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42404825

[Kato]

No I can’t.

Think harder.

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[Peevemor]

Aye. But before he struck it lucky with his poetry did he accept a job on a plantation?I see the point you're trying to make, but you've picked a really bad example.

[Mon Dieu4]

Just came across this (lengthy) BBC article which gives an interesting cross-section of views. It says that an amended plaque, which was to include reference to how Colston and numerous other wealthy Bristolians made their money, was set to be added to the statue. Did this ever happen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42404825

Dunno about that one but a plaque with a part about his role in slavery was definitely added to the Melville one in St Andrews Square

Edit, just read it was done by a campaigner and not the council

[G B Young]

I suppose the Hibs fans at least had a precedence when invading the pitch and demolishing the goals, just like the Tartan Army did at Wembley.

Sometimes, exuberance takes over, and people do the strangest things.:wink:

Exuberance covers Wembley 77 and Hampden 2016 for sure. Spontaneous and fuelled by nothing more than unbridled joy and relief (and a fair dash of bevvy at Wembley) but I think it's fair to question whether anyone attending a demo brings along the lengths of rope required to pull down a statue without prior intent. Pre-meditated opportunism rather than exuberance I imagine.

[G B Young]

Maintaining faith in law and order goes both ways. Policing is done by consent of the people, and when the people see those making the rules, bending/breaking the rules, what type of message does that send out.

I'm sure that most people in the country (Scotland) will adhere to our rule of law. Not sure about England though.

It's only just started, and we'll see more unrest as the year goes on.

It's a stretch to suggest that when people see those making the lockdown rules bending/breaking them they feel more entitled to break the law by violent means. It's becoming a tired excuse for daft behaviour and I doubt anyone attacking London police officers over the last couple of nights was in any way emboldened by the whatever mistakes politicians/advisers/medical officers have made over the last few months. Everything that's taken place this weekend would, I'm sure, have happened regardless.

I fear you're right about future unrest though, particularly in England.

[wpj]

Government happy with all this distraction for sure.

Absolutely, this pandemic is allowing so much else to go unreported. Field day for Boris and co.

[hibby6270]

The question is - should streets be renamed.
The answer is - NO.
The reason is - history is history. You can’t alter it. It shouldn’t be forgotten, whitewashed, airbrushed, etc, etc.

In many ways realisation nowadays that certain historical eras are not tolerated today is a good thing. We’re hopefully not going to lurch back to “the good old days” which were really, by today’s standards - “the bad old days” in retrospect.

The demonstrations of the last week or so have a legitimate credence but surely their reason is to change things going forward and not an attempt to erase the past from everyone’s minds. Just how far would that have to go to satisfy everyone’s prejudices?

[wpj]

Two posts caught my eye on Twitter.

Pulling down statues is as much a part of history as erecting them.

&

If you’re more concerned about ‘vandalism’ than you are about black people having to walk past a daily reminder that their ancestors were owned as ****ing property by the establishment of a country that continues to treat them like second class citizens, you’re a ****ing prick.

Top post 👍

[Hibrandenburg]

I think most people would agree that this is a positive to come out of discussions like these. We can’t re-write history but if we learn our history and learn from it then that is surely a good thing.

Britain was built on slavery, looting and pillaging. Our whole history is one of conquest, subjugation and mass murder all wrapped up in a cozy commonwealth ball of cotton.

[Bristolhibby]

Just came across this (lengthy) BBC article which gives an interesting cross-section of views. It says that an amended plaque, which was to include reference to how Colston and numerous other wealthy Bristolians made their money, was set to be added to the statue. Did this ever happen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42404825

Nope. Never got added. Councillors could not agree on the wording. 🤯

Not a surprise the Labour councillors wanted his slave trading history front and centre. The Tories wanted the plaque to focus on his generosity to the city and the buildings he funded.

That in a nutshell was why it had to be torn down. Asking nicely doesn’t work, it just got shuffled to the end of AOB at council meetings.

No way this should be in any way repaired and put back up.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m against mob rule, anarchy and civil disobedience in a civilised society. If we say it’s OK to pull down a statue in the centre of a UK city then it gives permission to do similar things elsewhere.

Let’s see what copycat stuff takes place over the next few days. There should be zero tolerance on this stuff imo. There is a way to effect change in a democracy. Anarchy and mob rule isn’t it.

This is the kind of stand out comment that has irked me the last few days. We've had centuries of racial discrimination and murder that people are now starting to object to but civil disobedience shouldn't be tolerated. That's skewed priorities in my book, surely civil disobedience is what we should be objecting to and the discrimination and murder of black people shouldn't be tolerated?

[Ozyhibby]

Nope. Never got added. Councillors could not agree on the wording. [emoji2962]

Not a surprise the Labour councillors wanted his slave trading history front and centre. The Tories wanted the plaque to focus on his generosity to the city and the buildings he funded.

That in a nutshell was why it had to be torn down. Asking nicely doesn’t work, it just got shuffled to the end of AOB at council meetings.

No way this should be in any way repaired and put back up.

J

Good on them for hauling it down then. Councils might start listening now. I bet his name gets removed from everything in the city sharpish now.


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[Ozyhibby]

This is the kind of stand out comment that has irked me the last few days. We've had centuries of racial discrimination and murder that people are now starting to object to but civil disobedience shouldn't be tolerated. That's skewed priorities in my book, surely civil disobedience is what we should be objecting to and the discrimination and murder of black people shouldn't be tolerated?

You can see that all the right wing commentators on twitter are outraged by a bit of graffiti and a couple of cops with minor injuries. It’s all ‘of course it’s wrong to kill George Floyd but this behaviour is really disgraceful’. If you look at their timeline, the is no condemnation of the George floyd killing at all until the protests started.


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[bigwheel]

No I can’t. If that building was funded by a man whose life should not be celebrated (because he made his money from slavery) then I cannot see how the building can function. Surely there is blood on its bricks?

It was me who pulled the statue down btw. I’m just challenging the thought process of protestors.

I hate Colston. Loved pulling down his vile statue. But I’m going to use the library, hospital, school or whatever he funded tomorrow. It’ll be ok soon anyway cos we’re going to rename it George Floyd House.

It’s all bollocks.

The “George Floyd House” comment is quite a strange one here. Seems pointed

Not sure why anyone would care too much about a slave trader’s statue ..

No one got injured there - some may end up getting charged - it’s the risk that they took .

[hibsbollah]

You can see that all the right wing commentators on twitter are outraged by a bit of graffiti and a couple of cops with minor injuries. It’s all ‘of course it’s wrong to kill George Floyd but this behaviour is really disgraceful’. If you look at their timeline, the is no condemnation of the George floyd killing at all until the protests started.


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I think this speaks to my point earlier. Look at these commentators timelines/previous posts and you’ll find out what they are motivated by and what their belief systems are. It doesn’t mean they are racists, it just means it’s not high up in their motivations. And that goes double for politicians, does Matt Hancocks ‘lifetime campaigner against racial injustice’ claim really stack up? Are there politicians with better claims than his? What’s his voting record like? Research it for yourself. And if they suffix a ‘but’ at the end of a sentence like ‘George Flloyds death was a tragedy, but’ or ‘I’m not against democratic protests, but’, you know what you’re dealing with. Platitudes.

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure why anyone would care too much about a slave trader’s statue ..


Can see why Johnson might. Slavers gotta stick together, what?

[Berwickhibby]

You can see that all the right wing commentators on twitter are outraged by a bit of graffiti and a couple of cops with minor injuries. It’s all ‘of course it’s wrong to kill George Floyd but this behaviour is really disgraceful’. If you look at their timeline, the is no condemnation of the George floyd killing at all until the protests started.


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You really write some total nonsense, as an ex serviceman I am outraged at the disrespectful vandalism on the cenotaph, that is not protesting a just cause it's downright thuggery. As for your crass remark of a few cops with minor injuries it's 13 plus a horse with a broken bone. The police have shown great restraint, had it happened in other country's there would have been CS, batons and possibly firearms used. Don't bother responding as I won't be reading it.

[Sergio sledge]

I'm not in favour of mob rule and anarchy, however I won't shed a tear over the statue revering this horrible man getting torn down. Of course it should have been done properly, but from the sounds of it that has been tried for years and no progress has been made because of political stalling, so I can certainly understand why people took matters into their own hands. I wouldn't have encouraged it but I can understand it.

I don't see how anyone can have such an issue with streets and buildings being renamed and statues being removed if that's what people want and it is done in the proper manner. If little steps like that help people in some way then why not? We need to acknowledge the shameful past that a lot of our country is built on and have discussions about how we can move forward from it (without trying to erase it from history, erasing it would mean we don't learn from it), changing a few street names which were named to honour people with a slave trading past seems like a pretty minor step which could have a positive effect for society. The discussion needs to be had though and should be had in a proper manner if at all possible.

As to the Churchill vandalism, he might have been the leader the UK needed at the time, however there's no denying he was a racist and a pretty horrible human. Again I don't agree with vandalism and I wouldn't encourage it, but I can understand why an anti racism protest would lead to some people targeting a statue of him.

[Colr]

Absolutely, this pandemic is allowing so much else to go unreported. Field day for Boris and co.

But we were warned of riots on the street if Brexit wasn’t delivered. Don’t recall if BJ said it, though.

[Colr]

Britain was built on slavery, looting and pillaging. Our whole history is one of conquest, subjugation and mass murder all wrapped up in a cozy commonwealth ball of cotton.

Our?

I didn’t do it.

We have our own decisions to make and we need to do the right thing not ape the mistakes of people long gone and done to other people long gone. We owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to do things in a way which will help us to grow and prosper together.

[Colr]

Can see why Johnson might. Slavers gotta stick together, what?

Although he claims to be descended from Circassian slaves in Turkey (where his blond hair comes from) but that’s probably a lie.

[G B Young]

Nope. Never got added. Councillors could not agree on the wording. ��

Not a surprise the Labour councillors wanted his slave trading history front and centre. The Tories wanted the plaque to focus on his generosity to the city and the buildings he funded.

That in a nutshell was why it had to be torn down. Asking nicely doesn’t work, it just got shuffled to the end of AOB at council meetings.

No way this should be in any way repaired and put back up.

J

I just heard Bristol's mayor on the news saying it will be retrieved and most likely relocated to a museum once it's been repaired rather than returned to its former spot. Maybe not a bad idea if it ultimately serves more of an educational purpose.

[Killiehibbie]

Although he claims to be descended from Circassian slaves in Turkey (where his blond hair comes from) but that’s probably a lie.
He's certainly been heard slavering

[Keith_M]

I have no problem with people pulling down the statue of a slave trader. I feel about that exactly the same as I did about people in Eastern Europe pulling down statues of Lenin or Stalin., and I also think it's about time we pulled down the statue to the Duke of Sutherland


What I do have a problem with is people attacking members of the police who had nothing whatsoever to do with the death of George Floyd.

My uncle, now retired, was a policeman for decades and hated racism. I have a friend who works for BTP and he also hates racism. Should I throw bricks at them?


I also have a serious problem with people burning down and looting shops of people who are innocent in all this. Many of those shops are even owned by ethnic minorities, so it's hardly a protest against racial prejudice.



(Please note, I didn't use the word 'but' between sentences)

[ronaldo7]

Exuberance covers Wembley 77 and Hampden 2016 for sure. Spontaneous and fuelled by nothing more than unbridled joy and relief (and a fair dash of bevvy at Wembley) but I think it's fair to question whether anyone attending a demo brings along the lengths of rope required to pull down a statue without prior intent. Pre-meditated opportunism rather than exuberance I imagine.

Neither you or i know whether it was pre medicated or not. Maybe in the heat of the moment, Willie shouted that he had some rope in his van parked nearby. Great, let's get that ******* Colston down from his plinth.

I'm not sure that every hibs fan planned to go onto the pitch at our day of delight, it was spontaneous.

They've been gunning for Colston for ages, the time and situation allowed them to act.

I'm not sure he'll be at rest in a museum either, unless they base the educational intent in reality.

[lapsedhibee]

Cummings has a new three-word slogan. It's SUBVERTED BY THUGGERY. Cabinet lackeys (Johnson, Patel so far) have started tweeting it.

[Ozyhibby]

Cummings has a new three-word slogan. It's SUBVERTED BY THUGGERY. Cabinet lackeys (Johnson, Patel so far) have started tweeting it.

Cummings is losing his touch then. Not exactly catchy.


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[lapsedhibee]

Cummings is losing his touch then. Not exactly catchy.

Cut him some slack. He almost died not two weeks ago.

[Bostonhibby]

Cut him some slack. He almost died not two weeks ago.And his eyesights not what it was.

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[JeMeSouviens]

Is Melville still on his perch? Someone needs to get up there with a rope. :wink:

PaulSmith sounds up for it - middle of St Andrew Square, you can't miss it. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

The question is - should streets be renamed.
The answer is - NO.
The reason is - history is history. You can’t alter it. It shouldn’t be forgotten, whitewashed, airbrushed, etc, etc.

In many ways realisation nowadays that certain historical eras are not tolerated today is a good thing. We’re hopefully not going to lurch back to “the good old days” which were really, by today’s standards - “the bad old days” in retrospect.

The demonstrations of the last week or so have a legitimate credence but surely their reason is to change things going forward and not an attempt to erase the past from everyone’s minds. Just how far would that have to go to satisfy everyone’s prejudices?

You can't alter history, but you can choose which parts of it you honour.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cut him some slack. He almost died not two weeks ago.

And, as Ronaldo says, we don't know if he was pre-medicated.

[G B Young]

Neither you or i know whether it was pre medicated or not. Maybe in the heat of the moment, Willie shouted that he had some rope in his van parked nearby. Great, let's get that ******* Colston down from his plinth.

I'm not sure that every hibs fan planned to go onto the pitch at our day of delight, it was spontaneous.

They've been gunning for Colston for ages, the time and situation allowed them to act.

I'm not sure he'll be at rest in a museum either, unless they base the educational intent in reality.

Are you suggesting there were performance-enhancing stimulants involved? :wink:

I'm not trying to argue that the symbolism of the end result was any different, but it just struck me that bringing down a statue would have required some pre-planning and was therefore not really the spontaneous act some would like to portray it as. The police have confirmed as much:

Defending his force against accusations of "incompetence", Superintendent Andy Bennett told LBC: "We weren't able to get to the statue in time to protect it. This was a pre-planned attempt to bring that [the statue] down. They had grappling ropes and they had the right tools. Once it was down, the right thing to do was to allow it to happen as what we did not want was tension and we tried to keep things low key."

However, LBC's Nick Ferrari retorted: "'Mind-boggling incompetence. They came with the right tools'? What in God's name is going on? So someone breaks into your house. 'Sorry, they came with the right tools, nothing we can do.' What are we paying these idiots at Avon and Somerset Police for? The whole purpose of your job is to get there in time you idiot. You don't just watch it go on."

[One Day]

Sir David Grey Street. Has a ring to it.

Pat Stanton Boulevard sounds good

[JeMeSouviens]

David Hume has been defaced in true Edinburgh style. :wink:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ69wxsWoAAT_sD?format=jpg&name=medium

[SideBurns]

Pat Stanton Boulevard sounds good

Liam Henderson Corner (or Cross, I suppose)? 😁

[lapsedhibee]

Sir David Grey Street. Has a ring to it.

Well, spelling changes over time anyway. To save on the millions that it would cost for a new street sign though, could SDG's knighthood not simply be revoked and replaced with an earldom?

[CropleyWasGod]

Well, spelling changes over time anyway. To save on the millions that it would cost for a new street sign though, could SDG's knighthood not simply be revoked and replaced with an earldom?

Bit of a scabby street to celebrate such an icon,no?

A sweeping panorama of New Town beauty (non-slave trade related, if there is such a thing) is more appropriate, IMO.

[SideBurns]

Well, spelling changes over time anyway. To save on the millions that it would cost for a new street sign though, could SDG's knighthood not simply be revoked and replaced with an earldom?

There's already a St.David's Street, isn't there? I always preferred the idea of a sainthood than a knighthood anyway...

[lapsedhibee]

Bit of a scabby street to celebrate such an icon,no?

A sweeping panorama of New Town beauty (non-slave trade related, if there is such a thing) is more appropriate, IMO.
Fair point. Can see some New Town from St David St, I think, but making that kind of change might be an ecumenical matter.

[ronaldo7]

Are you suggesting there were performance-enhancing stimulants involved? :wink:

I'm not trying to argue that the symbolism of the end result was any different, but it just struck me that bringing down a statue would have required some pre-planning and was therefore not really the spontaneous act some would like to portray it as. The police have confirmed as much:

Defending his force against accusations of "incompetence", Superintendent Andy Bennett told LBC: "We weren't able to get to the statue in time to protect it. This was a pre-planned attempt to bring that [the statue] down. They had grappling ropes and they had the right tools. Once it was down, the right thing to do was to allow it to happen as what we did not want was tension and we tried to keep things low key."

However, LBC's Nick Ferrari retorted: "'Mind-boggling incompetence. They came with the right tools'? What in God's name is going on? So someone breaks into your house. 'Sorry, they came with the right tools, nothing we can do.' What are we paying these idiots at Avon and Somerset Police for? The whole purpose of your job is to get there in time you idiot. You don't just watch it go on."


😆

Bristol does have a vibrancy about it.

[Peevemor]

Bit of a scabby street to celebrate such an icon,no?

A sweeping panorama of New Town beauty (non-slave trade related, if there is such a thing) is more appropriate, IMO.

One of my favourite views in Edinburgh is looking down Dundas Street with the Forth behind.

[CropleyWasGod]

One of my favourite views in Edinburgh is looking down Dundas Street with the Forth behind.

And it has the added advantage of sharing a corner with Henderson Row 😁

[Peevemor]

And it has the added advantage of sharing a corner with Henderson Row 😁

Oh yes!

[lapsedhibee]

And it has the added advantage of sharing a corner with Henderson Row 😁
Shirley it's not too much to ask of the council that they move Logan Street and Stevenson Street to fit in with this new town plan? :dunno:

[stuart-farquhar]

While back Easter Road Lane was renamed Sunnyside.

No idea why. Seemed unnecessary and odd to me at the time.

[SideBurns]

If proof was needed that Arthur Conan Doyle was a Hibby, the fact he housed his legendary detective Sherlock Holmes in Baker Street 60 odd years before Joe made his debut surely provides it! What a visionary...

We need one in Edinburgh. The sooner the whole city is named after Hibs legends the better.

[Colr]

David Hume has been defaced in true Edinburgh style. :wink:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ69wxsWoAAT_sD?format=jpg&name=medium

Voltaire had a similar opinion.

[Colr]

Well, spelling changes over time anyway. To save on the millions that it would cost for a new street sign though, could SDG's knighthood not simply be revoked and replaced with an earldom?

Hmmm! I’ll be drinking Earl Grey from now on!!

[JeMeSouviens]

Shirley it's not too much to ask of the council that they move Logan Street and Stevenson Street to fit in with this new town plan? :dunno:

Fontainebridge is a minimal rename.

[SideBurns]

Fontainebridge is a minimal rename.

Stokesbridge might be stretching things a bit, but I'm upfurrit.

[wpj]

I see that utter ershole Farage has chipped in with his unelected opinion. Can we dump him into a harbour preferably with an anchor wrapped around him. The apologist right wing are going to come out of this very badly.

[G B Young]

I see that utter ershole Farage has chipped in with his unelected opinion. Can we dump him into a harbour preferably with an anchor wrapped around him. The apologist right wing are going to come out of this very badly.

Haven't heard what he's saying today but I did actually agree with him when he highlighted the contradictory nature of this BBC News tweet yesterday:

27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London

[hibsbollah]

This Bristol statue thing is certainly dominating bbc radio today. Lauren Laverne kicks off her show with Bob Marley’s ‘Redemption Song’ (‘merchant ships, bottomless pit etc), nice touch Lauren. Then we have Peter Mandelson attacking ‘this country’s descent into mob rule’ :dunno: Farage puts his oar in, and everyone getting very excited about that intellectual colossus and occasional Home Secretary Priti Pratel making a statement later which is apparently going to be ‘uncompromising’.

On a slightly related point, Does anyone remember that Jimmy Saville statue that was taken down from outside a Glasgow swimming pool? Any other inappropriate location for statue award nominations anyone?

[JeMeSouviens]

Stokesbridge might be stretching things a bit, but I'm upfurrit.

If the fire brigade are ok with it, it's fine by me. :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

This Bristol statue thing is certainly dominating bbc radio today. Lauren Laverne kicks off her show with Bob Marley’s ‘Redemption Song’ (‘merchant ships, bottomless pit etc), nice touch Lauren. Then we have Peter Mandelson attacking ‘this country’s descent into mob rule’ :dunno: Farage puts his oar in, and everyone getting very excited about that intellectual colossus and occasional Home Secretary Priti Pratel making a statement later which is apparently going to be ‘uncompromising’.

On a slightly related point, Does anyone remember that Jimmy Saville statue that was taken down from outside a Glasgow swimming pool? Any other inappropriate location for statue award nominations anyone?

No, I don't, tbh, :dunno:

Looking forward to the outraged reactions of HibbyBairn and PaulSmith when they find out though. :grr:

You can't change history. :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

This Bristol statue thing is certainly dominating bbc radio today. Lauren Laverne kicks off her show with Bob Marley’s ‘Redemption Song’ (‘merchant ships, bottomless pit etc), nice touch Lauren. Then we have Peter Mandelson attacking ‘this country’s descent into mob rule’ :dunno: Farage puts his oar in, and everyone getting very excited about that intellectual colossus and occasional Home Secretary Priti Pratel making a statement later which is apparently going to be ‘uncompromising’.

On a slightly related point, Does anyone remember that Jimmy Saville statue that was taken down from outside a Glasgow swimming pool? Any other inappropriate location for statue award nominations anyone?

Always thought the Dundas statue 150 ft in the air was a bit inappropriate. How can you hang a scarf/put a traffic cone on that? :dunno:

[wpj]

Haven't heard what he's saying today but I did actually agree with him when he highlighted the contradictory nature of this BBC News tweet yesterday:

27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London


Aye and how many people of colour have been killed, sold into slavery lynched and murdered by the police? And the KKK
Apartheid? Did that travesty pass you by? Nah, 27 police were injured, that's the headline.

[G B Young]

Aye and how many people of colour have been killed, sold into slavery lynched and murdered by the police? And the KKK
Apartheid? Did that travesty pass you by? Nah, 27 police were injured, that's the headline.

Think you've missed the point there.

[wpj]

Think you've missed the point there.

Not worth getting into a conversation with you Mr Young. You think 27 police officers being injured after centuries of hurt. I will politely leave this debate. Take care and stay safe

[Scouse Hibee]

Aye and how many people of colour have been killed, sold into slavery lynched and murdered by the police? And the KKK
Apartheid? Did that travesty pass you by? Nah, 27 police were injured, that's the headline.

Spectacularly misses the point of the tweet and what it was highlighting!

[JeMeSouviens]

Not worth getting into a conversation with you Mr Young. You think 27 police officers being injured after centuries of hurt. I will politely leave this debate. Take care and stay safe

Au contraire - I think GBY, despite being not of my political persuasion, expresses himself well and is most worthy of getting into a conversation.

[ronaldo7]

This Bristol statue thing is certainly dominating bbc radio today. Lauren Laverne kicks off her show with Bob Marley’s ‘Redemption Song’ (‘merchant ships, bottomless pit etc), nice touch Lauren. Then we have Peter Mandelson attacking ‘this country’s descent into mob rule’ :dunno: Farage puts his oar in, and everyone getting very excited about that intellectual colossus and occasional Home Secretary Priti Pratel making a statement later which is apparently going to be ‘uncompromising’.

On a slightly related point, Does anyone remember that Jimmy Saville statue that was taken down from outside a Glasgow swimming pool? Any other inappropriate location for statue award nominations anyone?

As long as they dismantled the swimming pool, tile by tile it's fine by me.

[lapsedhibee]

Haven't heard what he's saying today but I did actually agree with him when he highlighted the contradictory nature of this BBC News tweet yesterday:

27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London


Any thoughts on why the Edinburgh and Glasgow protests didn't have any disturbances, while polis were getting injured in the English ones?

[wpj]

Spectacularly misses the point of the tweet and what it was highlighting!

Scouse, I am sure you have visited the slavery museum at Albert Dock and from the posts I have read from you I think you are a liberal and good guy. I'm not sure I missed the point of the tweet so If I did then thats on me. Oh, and by the way I'm a Blue 😉

[Hibrandenburg]

No, I don't, tbh, :dunno:

Looking forward to the outraged reactions of HibbyBairn and PaulSmith when they find out though. :grr:

You can't change history. :wink:

You are a naughty boy(I think). :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

No, I don't, tbh, :dunno:

Looking forward to the outraged reactions of HibbyBairn and PaulSmith when they find out though. :grr:

You can't change history. :wink:

Found it!https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19822296


Very odd.

[Slavers]

Not worth getting into a conversation with you Mr Young. You think 27 police officers being injured after centuries of hurt. I will politely leave this debate. Take care and stay safe

How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

[matty_f]

How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

That's sort of their job, though, isn't it? I mean, if they just did that then I'm pretty sure that nobody would have much of an issue with them.

It's when they do the killing bit that people get annoyed, which is weird.

[wpj]

How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

Having read your posts I honestly think you are trolling. I just cant get my head around your way of thinking. It cant just be me.

[Slavers]

That's sort of their job, though, isn't it? I mean, if they just did that then I'm pretty sure that nobody would have much of an issue with them.

It's when they do the killing bit that people get annoyed, which is weird.

Yes but the general jist of the comment, being that 27 police officers being injured does not matter compared to all the years of injustice served on black people.

So we are at the stage now when over 27 police officers are being seriously hurt in one weekend during a 'peaceful', it's is not worthy of a newspaper headline because of history associated with black slavery.

[lapsedhibee]

So we are at the stage now when over 27 police officers are being seriously hurt in one weekend during a 'peaceful', it's is not worthy of a newspaper headline because of history associated with black slavery.

It wasn't during just one 'peaceful'.

[Slavers]

Having read your posts I honestly think you are trolling. I just cant get my head around your way of thinking. It cant just be me.

Yeah i cant understand your response to the previous post either.

[wpj]

That's sort of their job, though, isn't it? I mean, if they just did that then I'm pretty sure that nobody would have much of an issue with them.

It's when they do the killing bit that people get annoyed, which is weird.

Thanks Matty, I honestly think I am losing the plot with some folk. I may need to leave the internet alone for a while, OK I may keep locked onto the Wildlife thread cos the politics is kicking my erchie. And, once again to everyone looking in, stay safe 👍

[Slavers]

It wasn't during just one 'peaceful'.

It was during one weekend was it not?

[hibsbollah]

How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

Good point. As long as the saved figure continues to outpace the killed figure, I’d say all is well :agree:

[Hiber-nation]

Yeah i cant understand your response to the previous post either.

I can't understand how you can be a Hibs supporter but that's another story.

[lapsedhibee]

It was during one weekend was it not?

Nope.

[Slavers]

Good point. As long as the saved figure continues to outpace the killed figure, I’d say all is well :agree:

How does the number of black people killed by the police compare to say black on black killings?

Sure the police have issue, all parts of society does but there seems to be an inconsistency where rage is being applied.

[hibsbollah]

How does the number of black people killed by the police compare to say black on black killings?

Sure the police have issue, all parts of society does but there seems to be an inconsistency where rage is being applied.

Do you think that’s a valid comparison? You could actually stick a red and a green apple up your arse and find a better analogy. In fact, away and give it a bash.

[bigwheel]

How does the number of black people killed by the police compare to say black on black killings?

Sure the police have issue, all parts of society does but there seems to be an inconsistency where rage is being applied.


Ok, so your point seems to be: "innocent people being killed by police brutality is not that bad because other people, including their own race, kill black people too"...

If you are working that hard to be anti the Black Lives Matter cause, I can only assume you have a different agenda.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good point. As long as the saved figure continues to outpace the killed figure, I’d say all is well :agree:

I've often thought we should let the police carry out armed robberies. As long as they stay within the number they're clearing up, who could object? :dunno:

[matty_f]

How does the number of black people killed by the police compare to say black on black killings?

Sure the police have issue, all parts of society does but there seems to be an inconsistency where rage is being applied.


Did we all forget that black people are fair game so long as there are black on black murders? When was this memo issued?

[hibsbollah]

I've often thought we should let the police carry out armed robberies. As long as they stay within the number they're clearing up, who could object? :dunno:

Is this the ‘R number’ I’m hearing so much about?? :greengrin

[matty_f]

I've often thought we should let the police carry out armed robberies. As long as they stay within the number they're clearing up, who could object? :dunno:

Yep, and so long as the number they do doesn't exceed the number of robber on robber thefts, it should be legit.

[Mibbes Aye]

Always thought the Dundas statue 150 ft in the air was a bit inappropriate. How can you hang a scarf/put a traffic cone on that? :dunno:

Persevere, obvs.

[lapsedhibee]

Persevere, obvs.

You wouldn't be able to do stuff spontaneously, on your way home from a game/the pub, though. You'd have to have climbing equipment. Everything would have to be pre-medicated.

[Berwickhibby]

How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

[Mibbes Aye]

You wouldn't be able to do stuff spontaneously, on your way home from a game/the pub, though. You'd have to have climbing equipment. Everything would have to be pre-medicated.
:greengrin

[G B Young]

Any thoughts on why the Edinburgh and Glasgow protests didn't have any disturbances, while polis were getting injured in the English ones?

I'm guessing much bigger crowds means a higher proportion of folk with other agendas. Maybe more anger among the far larger black communities in London compared to Glasgow/Edinburgh too.

Either that or we're generally just a bit better behaved in Scotland!

[Scouse Hibee]

Scouse, I am sure you have visited the slavery museum at Albert Dock and from the posts I have read from you I think you are a liberal and good guy. I'm not sure I missed the point of the tweet so If I did then thats on me. Oh, and by the way I'm a Blue 😉

Don’t worry I won’t hold being Blue against you, the point of the tweet was surely to ridicule the “Relatively peaceful” quote which then went on to say 27 cops had been hurt? A massive contradiction...no?

[bigwheel]

Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

if there is an opinion that says "police do lots of good things, so let's not get uppity if they kill a few innocent black people"...then it will rightly be called out as absurd.

It would be like you saying.."I've murdered two people, but I've saved three peoples lives, so I'm a good guy"

[matty_f]

Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

And you should rightly be proud of that. :agree:

[CapitalGreen]

Don’t worry I won’t hold being Blue against you, the point of the tweet was surely to ridicule the “Relatively peaceful” quote which then went on to say 27 cops had been hurt? A massive contradiction...no?

It was relatively peaceful though. Both relative to how many people were in attendance and relative to the level of violence seen in the states. The violence against the police was bad and should be condemned but it wasn’t widespread and the vast majority of people attending behaved legally.

Hibs Scottish Cup final pitch invasion was relatively peaceful, yes there was sporadic incidents of violence and vandalism carried out by a small minority but the vast majority of fans behaved themselves.

[G B Young]

Not worth getting into a conversation with you Mr Young. You think 27 police officers being injured after centuries of hurt. I will politely leave this debate. Take care and stay safe

I wasn't making a comparison between injured London police officers and centuries of black oppression. I was just questioning the BBC headline, which implied that a demonstration in which 27 police officers are injured is 'largely peaceful'.

I'll put it another way. If you read a headline which said '27 police officers injured during largely peaceful Old Firm match' would you think 'yep that sounds like a largely peaceful event right enough'?

If you've taken this the wrong way then that's unfortunate, but my point was largely light-hearted and wasn't intended to relate to black oppression at all.

[matty_f]

I wasn't making a comparison between injured London police officers and centuries of black oppression. I was just questioning the BBC headline, which implied that a demonstration in which 27 police officers are injured is 'largely peaceful'.

I'll put it another way. If you read a headline which said '27 police officers injured during largely peaceful Old Firm match' would you think 'yep that sounds like a largely peaceful event right enough'?

If you've taken this the wrong way then that's unfortunate, but my point was largely light-hearted and wasn't intended to relate to black oppression at all.

I get where you're coming from, but the protest can be largely peaceful and there be 27 injuries without it being contradictory (I appreciate you were meaning to be light-hearted, though - and from that aspect it's quite an amusing headline).

[Scouse Hibee]

It was relatively peaceful though. Both relative to how many people were in attendance and relative to the level of violence seen in the states. The violence against the police was bad and should be condemned but it wasn’t widespread and the vast majority of people attending behaved legally.

Hibs Scottish Cup final pitch invasion was relatively peaceful, yes there was sporadic incidents of violence and vandalism carried out by a small minority but the vast majority of fans behaved themselves.

Having spoken to a friend in the Met who said it was anything but relatively peaceful then I tend to agree that headline was contradictory. Of course his view could have been clouded by his colleagues being attacked!

[Berwickhibby]

I think next weekend could be a lot worse....i am a member of a couple of Facebook ex military sites. People are organising to travel to London to stand and protect the cenotaph and other war memorials. Imho I doubt these ex squaddies will be as restrained as the Met Police

[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks Matty, I honestly think I am losing the plot with some folk. I may need to leave the internet alone for a while, OK I may keep locked onto the Wildlife thread cos the politics is kicking my erchie. And, once again to everyone looking in, stay safe 👍

Just remember they're trolls. All humans need a certain amount of attention, most get it in the real world and sadly others make provocative statements online in the hope someone will take notice.

[hibsbollah]

I think next weekend could be a lot worse....i am a member of a couple of Facebook ex military sites. People are organising to travel to London to stand and protect the cenotaph and other war memorials. Imho I doubt these ex squaddies will be as restrained as the Met Police

Yes, Tommy Robinson and his cronies are all over this on Twitter.