Renaming streets

[Berwickhibby]

Yes, Tommy Robinson and his cronies are all over this on Twitter.

He is not ex military....he is a ****my little rat

[Hibrandenburg]

Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

If you're an ex policeman and you agree with that statement in any way, then that's concerning.

[hibsbollah]

He is not ex military....he is a ****my little rat

I didn’t say he was. But if he’s not behind this ‘protecting statues’ lark then he’s certainly pretending he’s behind it. I wish someone would chuck that **** in the river Avon.

[Berwickhibby]

I didn’t say he was. But if he’s not behind this ‘protecting statues’ lark then he’s certainly pretending he’s behind it. I wish someone would chuck that **** in the river Avon.

As much I abhor violence.... I could possibly provide an alibi to whoever chucked him in :greengrin... I doubt the military veterans would not want him having anything to do with what they want to achieve

[ronaldo7]

I think next weekend could be a lot worse....i am a member of a couple of Facebook ex military sites. People are organising to travel to London to stand and protect the cenotaph and other war memorials. Imho I doubt these ex squaddies will be as restrained as the Met Police

I saw a twitter photo the other day with a gang of hoolies on Plymouth Hoe.

Very fetching in their pink shorts protecting another monument. That'll be the type who're on their way to London.

Sweet.

[Berwickhibby]

If you're an ex policeman and you agree with that statement in any way, then that's concerning.

What do you mean if? You calling me a liar? And my statement is a fact...I have never killed or murdered anyone and I have saved a life that was recognised ....

[ronaldo7]

You wouldn't be able to do stuff spontaneously, on your way home from a game/the pub, though. You'd have to have climbing equipment. Everything would have to be pre-medicated.

I think I'll leave it in place, it seems to be getting some traction.

[Berwickhibby]

I saw a twitter photo the other day with a gang of hoolies on Plymouth Hoe.

Very fetching in their pink shorts protecting another monument. That'll be the type who're on their way to London.

Sweet.

I saw that pic and it was stated they were a local football team and they are hoolies....but some dumb fu cks vandalise a memorial that remembers the dead ...something that is a symbol to lots of ex military ... that's acceptable?

[ronaldo7]

I saw that pic and it was stated they were a local football team and they are hoolies....but some dumb fu cks vandalise a memorial that remembers the dead ...something that is a symbol to lots of ex military ... that's acceptable

Is it?

I thought you were against all the vandalism? :confused:

[Berwickhibby]

Is it?

I thought you were against all the vandalism? :confused:

Read it again...and you know that it's not acceptble ....

[lapsedhibee]

What do you mean if? You calling me a liar? And my statement is a fact...I have never killed or murdered anyone and I have saved a life that was recognised ....

He's not calling you a liar. He's expressing some shock that you've endorsed Slavers's view.

[Berwickhibby]

He's not calling you a liar. He's expressing some shock that you've endorsed Slavers's view.

Slavers views are not racist.... but they are his.... I suggested he is wasting his time expressing them here

[lapsedhibee]

Slavers views are not racist.... but they are his.... I suggested he is wasting his time expressing them here

Thereby endorsing them.

[ronaldo7]

I saw that pic and it was stated they were a local football team and they are hoolies....but some dumb fu cks vandalise a memorial that remembers the dead ...something that is a symbol to lots of ex military ... that's acceptable?

So you'd be happy for this bunch to go up to London and "protect" the memorials?

Sounds like a bunch of hoolies on a day out to the big smoke to bash some heads.

Tell me as an ex polis, you wouldn't want all these ex military and hoolies going on the ran dan?

[Berwickhibby]

So you'd be happy for this bunch to go up to London and "protect" the memorials?

Sounds like a bunch of hoolies on a day out to the big smoke to bash some heads.

Tell me as an ex polis, you wouldn't want all these ex military and hoolies going on the ran dan?

So are you condoning the attacks on police and the centotaph over the weekend?

[ronaldo7]

So are you condoning the attacks on police and the centotaph over the weekend?

No.

Now if you'd be so kind to answer my questions.

Do you support the vigilante groups on their way to London?

[Berwickhibby]

No.

Now if you'd be so kind to answer my questions.

Do you support the vigilante groups on their way to London?

No I do not..... especially when the right wing sc um like EDL are trying to join in

[ronaldo7]

No I do not..... especially when the right wing sc um like EDL are trying to join in

You mentioned earlier that you'd been on ex military facebook pages, and that some of them were going to London to "protect" the cenotaph.

Surely they're vigilantes?

Why not leave it to the Police?

[Berwickhibby]

You mentioned earlier that you'd been on ex military facebook pages, and that some of them were going to London to "protect" the cenotaph.

Surely they're vigilantes?

Why not leave it to the Police?

I imagine because the Police are not stopping the sc um attacking and vandalising a monument to the dead which to most ex military something important.. I have not supported ex military going to do this, I posted what I had read online in response to Hibsbollah, vigilantes are you words, they consider themselves right minded citizens who are just going to stand and stop the cenotaph being attacked and vandalised

I imagine if the cenotaph is not attacked the ex squaddies won't need to defend it

[Mon Dieu4]

Yes, Tommy Robinson and his cronies are all over this on Twitter.

A "friend" of mine just deleted me on social media because of all this, over the last few years he has got more and more right wing and although I don't have any time for it I equally don't want to live in an echo chamber where everyone's view is the same as my own so had never deleted him

The last week however has been a real eye opener for me with some of the stuff he's been posting, I pulled him up about something he said about Robinson and he goes on a rant about me being a sheep, SJW etc

got myself deleted when I said that as he'd never worked a day in his life he'd have been better off voting for labour as his benefits would more than likely have been higher than what his beloved Tories give him :faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

What do you mean if? You calling me a liar? And my statement is a fact...I have never killed or murdered anyone and I have saved a life that was recognised ....

:rolleyes: No I'm not calling you a liar. I was just surprised that a former police officer would agree that it's ok to kill black people providing more are being saved. If it's only black people that this absurd rule applies to then that's racist, if it applies to all creeds then it's merely absurd, either way I think that a former police officer holding these views is concerning.


Slavers:
How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

You:
Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

[Berwickhibby]

:rolleyes: No I'm not calling you a liar. I was just surprised that a former police officer would agree that it's ok to kill black people providing more are being saved. If it's only black people that this absurd rule applies to then that's racist, if it applies to all creeds then it's merely absurd, either way I think that a former police officer holding these views is concerning.


Slavers:
How many black lives have been saved by the police? I suspect it's a alot more than have been killed by them.

You:
Your wasting your time with your opinion as it's different to the majority on here. Funnily enough I have never murdered anyone but my certificate from Chief Constable and Humane Society states I saved a mans life with cpr. He was a human being in distress his colour was irrelevant.

If you honestly believe that then there is absolutely nothing now I can say it's going to change your mind... police have killed black people in the UK and I would say the majority were justified...not all. I assumed and hopefully slavers will confirm or I have picked up what he wrote incorrectly that he was on about this rather thinking that police killing less without cause is acceptable.

[wpj]

I saw a twitter photo the other day with a gang of hoolies on Plymouth Hoe.

Very fetching in their pink shorts protecting another monument. That'll be the type who're on their way to London.

Sweet.

I met a Plymouth Hoe once, most accommodating 🙂

[ronaldo7]

I met a Plymouth Ho once, most accommodating 🙂

Fixed that for you. :wink:

[CapitalGreen]

If you honestly believe that then there is absolutely nothing now I can say it's going to change your mind... police have killed black people in the UK and I would say the majority were justified...not all. I assumed and hopefully slavers will confirm or I have picked up what he wrote incorrectly that he was on about this rather thinking that police killing less without cause is acceptable.

Slavers thinks the world is controlled by a secret group of people who worship Lucifer. I think you’re putting too much faith in him having well thought out, substantiated opinions.

[ronaldo7]

I imagine because the Police are not stopping the sc um attacking and vandalising a monument to the dead which to most ex military something important.. I have not supported ex military going to do this, I posted what I had read online in response to Hibsbollah, vigilantes are you words, they consider themselves right minded citizens who are just going to stand and stop the cenotaph being attacked and vandalised

I imagine if the cenotaph is not attacked the ex squaddies won't need to defend it

I stand by my words. These vigilantes don't need to go to London.

Let's hope nothing comes of it, I'm sure your ex workmates will deal with the situation as it arises.

[Berwickhibby]

Slavers thinks the world is controlled by a secret group of people who worship Lucifer. I think you’re putting too much faith in him having well thought out, substantiated opinions.

I will take your word for it, I took his post to mean that the police save more lives than than they take lives (lawfully) now if I have taken it wrong then I intended no offence.

[Betty Boop]

Sitting in Limbo' inspired by Windrush. BBC 1

[Antifa Hibs]

I imagine because the Police are not stopping the sc um attacking and vandalising a monument to the dead which to most ex military something important.. I have not supported ex military going to do this, I posted what I had read online in response to Hibsbollah, vigilantes are you words, they consider themselves right minded citizens who are just going to stand and stop the cenotaph being attacked and vandalised

I imagine if the cenotaph is not attacked the ex squaddies won't need to defend it

Why do right wingers care so much about a few blocks of brick, granite and some cement? Genuine question. I've seen more rage for daft statues than I have for Grenfell burning from certain sections of society.


Regarding going to London for a jolly and meeting up with their right wing pals from EDL, Britain First, NF, Combat 18, FLA? Attention seeking right-wing ********s in the military? I'm flabbergasted who would have thought it. If they had any sense they'd stay well away from it but the ones going will of course sympathise with those groups.

[wpj]

This kind of echoes the 70s (and pretty much every right vs left altercations), for those of us who remember the anti nazi league, rock against racism and the national front marches. Back then it was maybe 2 mins on the news, now with social media it will be everywhere. I dont think it will end anytime soon and I dont want to see people getting hurt (ok, apart from Tommy Robinson) but police have families who want them to come home after a shift safe and sound.

[Berwickhibby]

Why do right wingers care so much about a few blocks of brick, granite and some cement? Genuine question. I've seen more rage for daft statues than I have for Grenfell burning from certain sections of society.


Regarding going to London for a jolly and meeting up with their right wing pals from EDL, Britain First, NF, Combat 18, FLA? Attention seeking right-wing ********s in the military? I'm flabbergasted who would have thought it. If they had any sense they'd stay well away from it.

First of all do not call me right wing, I have been a Labour supporting socialist all my life, 2nd do not think Ex military want tarred with sc um like the EDL and other right wing *****, and I understand why they want to protect the cenotaph as to most of us who have served is a special place of rememerence. As for Grenfell, as you brought it up, your anger should be directed at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Tories who run the council, lots of officers risked their lives that night trying to save residents. Perhaps if the sc um protester had not disrespected the cenotaph then people would not have the urge to defend it. Or are you condoning the damage?

[Berwickhibby]

This kind of echoes the 70s (and pretty much every right vs left altercations), for those of us who remember the anti nazi league, rock against racism and the national front marches. Back then it was maybe 2 mins on the news, now with social media it will be everywhere. I dont think it will end anytime soon and I dont want to see people getting hurt (ok, apart from Tommy Robinson) but police have families who want them to come home after a shift safe and sound.

Pity the Clash did not turn up, but Aswad and the Valves were brilliant lol :aok:

[Antifa Hibs]

First of all do not call me right wing, I have been a Labour supporting socialist all my life, 2nd do not think Ex military want tarred with sc um like the EDL and other right wing *****, and I understand why they want to protect the cenotaph as to most of us who have served is a special place of rememerence. As for Grenfell, as you brought it up, your anger should be directed at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Tories who run the council, lots of officers risked their lives that night trying to save residents. Perhaps if the sc um protester had not disrespected the cenotaph then people would not have the urge to defend it. Or are you condoning the damage?

Never said you were. Just asked the question why right wingers care so much about statues? And not talking about cenotaph but other ones?

Regarding condoning the damage, to the Colston one 100%, to the Churchwill one 100%. Others i won't, just as I won't condone any vandalism tbf. Wouldn't lose any sleep over it though and certainly wouldn't run off to London and be associated with Tommy Robinson and his inbred foot soldiers.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-52965230

This pretty much sums up my take on things and the educational value of the mistakes of that past.

[wpj]

Pity the Clash did not turn up, but Aswad and the Valves were brilliant lol :aok:

Aswad, "New Chapter In Dub" what a fantastic album.
Lat year I saw Lee Scratch Perry and the Mad Professor playing in a park in Cambridge, I swear the bass must have registered on the richter scale.
Apologies for the thread hijack

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-52965230

This pretty much sums up my take on things and the educational value of the mistakes of that past.

‘Scotlands first black professor’?? Please tell me there have been a fair few between now and then. I’m reading that wrong, he’s not the first and only, surely?

Is there anybody else who, leaving aside the race discussion for a moment, just finds most statues fairly uninspiring anyway? From town to town, it’s usually a bald guy in cold grey granite indistinguishable from another guy in cold grey granite. Often on a horse. Honoured by some people with a budget to spend at some point in late Victorian or early twentieth century recent history.

Much more interesting stuff you could do, whether it’s the angel of the north Anthony gormley thing, to the polish bear in princes street gardens or something else contemporary.

The cold grey granite physical representation of a bald guy is itself fake anyway, we did it because we were trying to echo Greek and Roman classic aesthetics that were popular in Victorian times. But the classic statues only looked the way they did when we found them then because weather and time had worn them away; those statues were originally a riot of colour and were painted or had jewels or coloured glass attached to them (I know this thanks to recent progression at Assassins Creed Odyssey on the Xbox, lockdown providing extra education again) :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

Never said you were. Just asked the question why right wingers care so much about statues? And not talking about cenotaph but other ones?

Regarding condoning the damage, to the Colston one 100%, to the Churchwill one 100%. Others i won't, just as I won't condone any vandalism tbf. Wouldn't lose any sleep over it though and certainly wouldn't run off to London and be associated with Tommy Robinson and his inbred foot soldiers.

I won't lose sleep over any the others...but the Cenotaph is personal to me as are all military memorials and imho are out of bounds its disrespectful to attack those. Also there are some ex squaddies who are BAME attending to defend the Cenotaph.

Mind you the comments about EDL/SDL reminded of my last police complaint apparantly during an EDL march through Berwick by about 40 I allegedly ran over one of their feet.... not proven I hasten to add

[bigwheel]

I won't lose sleep over any the others...but the Cenotaph is personal to me as are all military memorials and imho are out of bounds its disrespectful to attack those. Also there are some ex squaddies who are BAME attending to defend the Cenotaph.

Mind you the comments about EDL/SDL reminded of my last police complaint apparantly during an EDL march through Berwick by about 40 I allegedly ran over one of their feet.... not proven I hasten to add

Knowing a few servicemen, I can understand the respect you would have for those types of memorials..great to hear your disrespect of the racists in the EDL/SDL. Respect [emoji122][emoji106]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/plaque-be-added-melville-monument-st-andrew-square-detailing-henry-dundas-ties-slave-trade-2878456

[hibsbollah]

A "friend" of mine just deleted me on social media because of all this, over the last few years he has got more and more right wing and although I don't have any time for it I equally don't want to live in an echo chamber where everyone's view is the same as my own so had never deleted him

The last week however has been a real eye opener for me with some of the stuff he's been posting, I pulled him up about something he said about Robinson and he goes on a rant about me being a sheep, SJW etc

got myself deleted when I said that as he'd never worked a day in his life he'd have been better off voting for labour as his benefits would more than likely have been higher than what his beloved Tories give him :faf:

In the old days we lost touch with friends for a reason. They became twats and you stopped returning their calls or started drinking in different pubs for a bit :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

Sitting in Limbo' inspired by Windrush. BBC 1

Sick *******s from Theresa May down.

[Mibbes Aye]

‘Scotlands first black professor’?? Please tell me there have been a fair few between now and then. I’m reading that wrong, he’s not the first and only, surely?

Is there anybody else who, leaving aside the race discussion for a moment, just finds most statues fairly uninspiring anyway? From town to town, it’s usually a bald guy in cold grey granite indistinguishable from another guy in cold grey granite. Often on a horse. Honoured by some people with a budget to spend at some point in late Victorian or early twentieth century recent history.

Much more interesting stuff you could do, whether it’s the angel of the north Anthony gormley thing, to the polish bear in princes street gardens or something else contemporary.

The cold grey granite physical representation of a bald guy is itself fake anyway, we did it because we were trying to echo Greek and Roman classic aesthetics that were popular in Victorian times. But the classic statues only looked the way they did when we found them then because weather and time had worn them away; those statues were originally a riot of colour and were painted or had jewels or coloured glass attached to them (I know this thanks to recent progression at Assassins Creed Odyssey on the Xbox, lockdown providing extra education again) :greengrin

It is an interesting point.

I remember watching a documentary a number of years ago about Worcester Cathedral, which is as fine a cathedral as you might might find. It is cold and grey now but when first built was a myriad of colours, a real explosion. It is hard to imagine, because the narrative is that churches and cathedrals might be architecturally splendid but are colourless. In truth, some were gaudy in their colour.

I am tempted to insert a line about the Protestants ruining it for everyone with the Reformation and knocking stuff down and that, but will ebb on the side of caution :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

First of all do not call me right wing, I have been a Labour supporting socialist all my life, 2nd do not think Ex military want tarred with sc um like the EDL and other right wing *****, and I understand why they want to protect the cenotaph as to most of us who have served is a special place of rememerence. As for Grenfell, as you brought it up, your anger should be directed at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Tories who run the council, lots of officers risked their lives that night trying to save residents. Perhaps if the sc um protester had not disrespected the cenotaph then people would not have the urge to defend it. Or are you condoning the damage?

Ex military Facebook pages are strewn with EDL, Britain First and UKIP propaganda, they're a breeding ground for right wing extremism and British Nationalists.

[JeMeSouviens]

‘Scotlands first black professor’?? Please tell me there have been a fair few between now and then. I’m reading that wrong, he’s not the first and only, surely?


He’s been a prof since the late 80s I think. One of my best friends did a brewing and distilling course at HWU and he knows him. I met him once actually, at the Stewart brewery at Loanhead.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sayeeda Warsi (from the vanishingly small number of decent Tories) tweets a sample from her inbox:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ_BwruWsAIqLf9?format=jpg&name=large

Too laughable to be sinister.

[G B Young]

Pity the Clash did not turn up, but Aswad and the Valves were brilliant lol :aok:

The Clash deffo played Rock Against Racism at Victoria Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcjkgYS-cU

[G B Young]

Why do right wingers care so much about a few blocks of brick, granite and some cement? Genuine question. I've seen more rage for daft statues than I have for Grenfell burning from certain sections of society.


Regarding going to London for a jolly and meeting up with their right wing pals from EDL, Britain First, NF, Combat 18, FLA? Attention seeking right-wing ********s in the military? I'm flabbergasted who would have thought it. If they had any sense they'd stay well away from it but the ones going will of course sympathise with those groups.

I haven't read back through what's been posted since I was last on, but are there seriously suggestions that the Cenotaph is a target for damage? Defacing the flagship memorial to the nation's war dead?! Could anyone planning to do so in the name of Black Lives Matter come up with a more instantaneous way to reverse public sympathy?

If statues are so daft, why do some folk care so much about pulling them down? The rhetoric around the one in Bristol - and now the renewed debate around the Cecil Rhodes one at Oxford - is reaching the stage where you'd think Colston and Rhodes themselves were getting a rope round their necks and haven't actually been dead for centuries.

[Colr]

It is an interesting point.

I remember watching a documentary a number of years ago about Worcester Cathedral, which is as fine a cathedral as you might might find. It is cold and grey now but when first built was a myriad of colours, a real explosion. It is hard to imagine, because the narrative is that churches and cathedrals might be architecturally splendid but are colourless. In truth, some were gaudy in their colour.

I am tempted to insert a line about the Protestants ruining it for everyone with the Reformation and knocking stuff down and that, but will ebb on the side of caution :greengrin

The acropolis was also brightly painted.

[Betty Boop]

Sick *******s from Theresa May down.


:agree:

[Antifa Hibs]

I haven't read back through what's been posted since I was last on, but are there seriously suggestions that the Cenotaph is a target for damage? Defacing the flagship memorial to the nation's war dead?! Could anyone planning to do so in the name of Black Lives Matter come up with a more instantaneous way to reverse public sympathy?

Not that i've read not that anyone is going to publicly come out with that.

Just an excuse for racist ********s to meet up, crack open a few Stella, half gram of charlie in the back pocket and shout things like "we want arr ****ry back" and abuse what is likely going to be groups of teenagers. All in the name of protecting some bricks.

https://twitter.com/Miss_Meddy143/status/1270080612590911488


If statues are so daft, why do some folk care so much about pulling them down? The rhetoric around the one in Bristol - and now the renewed debate around the Cecil Rhodes one at Oxford - is reaching the stage where you'd think Colston and Rhodes themselves were getting a rope round their necks and haven't actually been dead for centuries.

Fair point. Could argue though the Coltston one has done massive amounts for highlighting Britain's past in the slave trade, particularly amongst youngsters on social media who will now be searching his and other's names. Same with the Chruchill is a racist one. You don't get told at school the truth about the racist right wing fat ****. All you're told is how "Britain and Churchill won the war". People educating themselves on those matters can only be a good thing.



As above.

[Berwickhibby]

The Clash deffo played Rock Against Racism at Victoria Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcjkgYS-cU

Defo, they were advertised to play Rock Against Racism in Craigmiller Edinburgh, on the day nobody showed. Years later I asked Joe Strummer why they did not turn up, he said their management never informed them

[G B Young]

Defo, they were advertised to play Rock Against Racism in Craigmiller Edinburgh, on the day nobody showed. Years later I asked Joe Strummer why they did not turn up, he said their management never informed them

Wasn't aware of that. Wee bit before my time tho I did catch them in Edinburgh a couple of times after that. Also remember seeing Strummer playing an Edinburgh gig in the late 80s under the banner of Rock against the Rich :greengrin

[G B Young]

As above.

I can't see who actually posted the 'as above' comments as the post seems to have been deleted, but it's surely well wide of the mark to suggest that anyone who would want to see that 'pile of bricks' (aka the Cenotaph) protected from vandalism must be a far-right racist?! Millions of people from all walks of life would rightly be appalled by such an act.

Churchill? For a 'racist right wing fat ****' he did not bad by playing a leading role in defeating an ideology that sanctioned the murder of millions who were deemed culturally unacceptable.

I agree with the point about the current protests helping to educate people, but Churchill's been more written about than any other political figure in history so it's not as though his flaws are undocumented. A divisive figure for sure, but during his lifetime (when Britain was still closely associated with colonialism) there would have been millions of people in this country (again from all walks of life) who would today be deemed to harbour racist views. Should 'racist' be the way their lives are now defined?

[Berwickhibby]

I can't see who actually posted the 'as above' comments as the post seems to have been deleted, but it's surely well wide of the mark to suggest that anyone who would want to see that 'pile of bricks' (aka the Cenotaph) protected from vandalism must be a far-right racist?! Millions of people from all walks of life would rightly be appalled by such an act.

Churchill? For a 'racist right wing fat ****' he did not bad by playing a leading role in defeating an ideology that sanctioned the murder of millions who were deemed culturally unacceptable.

I agree with the point about the current protests helping to educate people, but Churchill's been more written about than any other political figure in history so it's not as though his flaws are undocumented. A divisive figure for sure, but during his lifetime (when Britain was still closely associated with colonialism) there would have been millions of people in this country (again from all walks of life) who would today be deemed to harbour racist views. Should 'racist' be the way their lives are now defined?

To be honest the pile of bricks comment is appalling.... as education of understanding is what we strive to achieve...I will give you a hypothetical situation in the hope that people understand why I am emotive about the attack on the cenotaph and other military memorials....

Today a young fu ckwit is in London ...he/she passes the statue of Nelson Mandela and decides to daub Arsenal in big red letters on it. Well Nelson wasn't a Gooner, looking for something to burn he/she decides to put a Spurs flag round his neck and attempt to set it alight....are you appalled...why it's just a lump of metal

The emotive feeling you would rightly have about an idiot attacking a statue of Nelson Mandela is how I and others feel about the attack on the cenotaph

[Colr]

Has anyone raised redesigning the union jack yet?

That’ll get the gammons going.

Having said that, as we are getting pushed through a hard Brexit, this seems like the ideal time for a hard reset on British culture and values to drag it into the 21st Century.

[Keith_M]

Has anyone raised redesigning the union jack yet?

That’ll get the gammons going.
...


I think it should be replaced with this.https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_meg6cp7ET31rr0tx7.jpg

[CropleyWasGod]

Drove along Melville Street this morning, and the statue in the middle has been graffiti-ed.

"Son of a slave-trader" were the words, I think. Presumably, the statue is of the son of Viscount Melville..... which is a fact that I (and probably most Edinburgh residents) didn't know.

We pass by these statues every day, most times not even knowing or caring who they are meant to be memorialising. For my own part, I often marvel at the artistic beauty of them; as with architecture, the craftmanship, without modern-day aids, is breathtaking.

And that begs a question for me. If people feel the need to rid us of the subjects of the statues, is there not a case for removing the names, but preserving and celebrating the art and the artist?

[EAZY-ME]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

[lapsedhibee]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

Terrorists, protesters, counter-terrorists, counter-protesters, all exactly the same.

[CapitalGreen]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

Who are the “we” which you refer to?

[EAZY-ME]

Terrorists, protesters, counter-terrorists, counter-protesters, all exactly the same.

Agreed however the way things are just now i opted to call them protesters

[Ozyhibby]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

We do negotiate with terrorists though.


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[bigwheel]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters


are you comparing protestors to terrorists? What about the many (vast majority) of the protestors who are non violent and have a good cause to protest about?

[hibsbollah]

are you comparing protestors to terrorists? What about the many (vast majority) of the protestors who are non violent and have a good cause to protest about?

Just a guess, but I suspect you are wasting your time.

[McD]

I imagine because the Police are not stopping the sc um attacking and vandalising a monument to the dead which to most ex military something important.. I have not supported ex military going to do this, I posted what I had read online in response to Hibsbollah, vigilantes are you words, they consider themselves right minded citizens who are just going to stand and stop the cenotaph being attacked and vandalised

I imagine if the cenotaph is not attacked the ex squaddies won't need to defend it



do you think that the guy who put his knee on George Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds considers himself a right minded citizen?



i get the point you are making mate, but I think what you have described from these people may not be as altruistic as you are (that’s a compliment, not a sarcastic comment)

[G B Young]

Drove along Melville Street this morning, and the statue in the middle has been graffiti-ed.

"Son of a slave-trader" were the words, I think. Presumably, the statue is of the son of Viscount Melville..... which is a fact that I (and probably most Edinburgh residents) didn't know.

We pass by these statues every day, most times not even knowing or caring who they are meant to be memorialising. For my own part, I often marvel at the artistic beauty of them; as with architecture, the craftmanship, without modern-day aids, is breathtaking.

And that begs a question for me. If people feel the need to rid us of the subjects of the statues, is there not a case for removing the names, but preserving and celebrating the art and the artist?

It's a fair point. As you say, many monuments/statues are spectacular pieces of art in their own right and testimony to incredibly skilled craftsmen/women. Rather than just haul down works which are deemed to represent something beyond the pale, I think there's a case to be made for them to be relocated to museums or galleries where they can be set in an appropriate context.

I think we also need to be careful that any review of the suitability of such monuments isn't led by a desire to unearth perceived evil-doing. For instance, without researching the Melville St statue you mention has it been vandalised solely because the guy it represents just happened to be the son of a slave trader? Hardly something to be vilified for unless he was one himself? For all I know he was honoured for something worthy. And when you look at the wider picture, how many historical figures commemorated in this way were flawless? A warts and all approach when it comes to a city's monuments is not necessarily a bad thing.

[McD]

Sayeeda Warsi (from the vanishingly small number of decent Tories) tweets a sample from her inbox:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ_BwruWsAIqLf9?format=jpg&name=large

Too laughable to be sinister.


People like this are what cause the kind of riots and demonstrations, stuck in a time they’ve never experienced but believe they are entitled to.


there is not a human being on the planet who is worth more or less than any other (excepting some of the utter trash that abuse that premise like serial rapists and murderers etc)

[EAZY-ME]

are you comparing protestors to terrorists? What about the many (vast majority) of the protestors who are non violent and have a good cause to protest about?

Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest however there are large group amongst them that are hell bent on terrorism ...rioting looting and desecration of monuments are terrorist acts of violence not peaceful protests.....i maybe should have added hyphens in my original post ...for example "protesters"

[Keith_M]

do you think that the guy who put his knee on George Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds considers himself a right minded citizen?



I don't know about anybody else but I'm struggling to see what that had to do with his comment.

Maybe you could explain the relevance.

[Keith_M]

Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest however there are large group amongst them that are hell bent on terrorism ...rioting looting and desecration of monuments are terrorist acts of violence not peaceful protests.....i maybe should have added hyphens in my original post ...for example "protesters"


That's an interesting viewpoint, considering your avatar.

[CapitalGreen]

Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest however there are large group amongst them that are hell bent on terrorism ...rioting looting and desecration of monuments are terrorist acts of violence not peaceful protests.....i maybe should have added hyphens in my original post ...for example "protesters"

Rioting, vandalism and looting are not acts of terrorism - that is hysterical nonsense. I also haven’t seen any evidence of looting in the UK - is that happening?

Also, can you answer the question I asked you previously.


Who are the “we” which you refer to?

[McD]

I don't know about anybody else but I'm struggling to see what that had to do with his comment.

Maybe you could explain the relevance.


Berwickhibby was referring to those travelling to London to apparently protect the cenotaph amongst other monuments, where there has been a number of links to right wing groups, who are not necessarily going to London for the stated cause (which I pointed out that I don’t consider BH to be).

he said they would consider themselves to be right minded citizens (including the ring wing groups). I was pointing out that the police officer who killed George Floyd would probably also consider himself to a right minded citizen, and ergo believing ones self to be that doesn’t mean we should assume their actions are altruistic.

[Keith_M]

Berwickhibby was referring to those travelling to London to apparently protect the cenotaph amongst other monuments, where there has been a number of links to right wing groups, who are not necessarily going to London for the attend cause (which I pointed out that I don’t consider BH to be).

he said they would consider themselves to be right minded citizens (including the ring wing groups). I was pointing out that the police officer who killed George Floyd would probably also consider himself to a right minded citizen, and ergo believing ones self to be that doesn’t mean we should assume their actions are altruistic.


OK, but it sounds like a bit of a stretch to see why you chose to equate the two.


What I would say is that the EDL, and those of their ilk, are just using this for their own ends and I don't believe they have any genuine interest in what the Cenotaph represents. This is just like their (and the so-called Loyalists) appropriation of the memory of Lee Rigby... something which his mother detests.

[McD]

OK, but it sounds like a bit of a stretch to see why you chose to equate the two.


What I would say is that the EDL, and those of their ilk, are just using this for their own ends and I don't believe they have any genuine interest in what the Cenotaph represents. This is just like their (and the so-called Loyalists) appropriation of the memory of Lee Rigby... something which his mother detests.


I completely agree with your point. It’s a convenient excuse to spout their bile, and worse.


I was using an extreme example to make a point that someone considering themselves a right minded citizen really doesn’t carry any weight regardless of their past, fair enough if I’ve stretched it too far, apologies if I’ve offended anyone.

[EAZY-ME]

That's an interesting viewpoint, considering your avatar.

Maybe i should put my own photo in my avatar

[matty_f]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

Yes, let's not back down to their demands to end racism.

[lapsedhibee]

I was using an extreme example to make a point that someone considering themselves a right minded citizen really doesn’t carry any weight regardless of their past, fair enough if I’ve stretched it too far, apologies if I’ve offended anyone.

Not me, I thought it was fine.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes, let's not back down to their demands to end racism.

Next they'll be wanting safety on the roads, unadulterated food, could be absolutely anything.

[Berwickhibby]

Berwickhibby was referring to those travelling to London to apparently protect the cenotaph amongst other monuments, where there has been a number of links to right wing groups, who are not necessarily going to London for the stated cause (which I pointed out that I don’t consider BH to be).

he said they would consider themselves to be right minded citizens (including the ring wing groups). I was pointing out that the police officer who killed George Floyd would probably also consider himself to a right minded citizen, and ergo believing ones self to be that doesn’t mean we should assume their actions are altruistic.

Couple of points of order....first I have no idea whether the officer considered himself a right minded citizen and I don't care...he crossed the line at the very least when he killed Mr Floyd, due process and the criminal justice system will deal with him.

That said that why does his criminal action 3000 miles away justify the sickening attack on cenotaph?

show me where I have ever suggested that right wing groups are right minded...you won't as it that is most stupid assumption I have read .... I have fought against racism since the 70s ever since my mind was opened by the likes of the Clash

[Bristolhibby]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

Haha, comparing protesters with terrorists.

That’s funny.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Couple of points of order....first I have no idea whether the officer considered himself a right minded citizen and I don't care...he crossed the line at the very least when he killed Mr Floyd, due process and the criminal justice system will deal with him.

That said that why does his criminal action 3000 miles away justify the sickening attack on cenotaph?

show me where I have ever suggested that right wing groups are right minded...you won't as it that is most stupid assumption I have read .... I have fought against racism since the 70s ever since my mind was opened by the likes of the Clash

There is still a lot of work to be done to end racism though so we have to keep going.
The cenotaph will be repaired and it will be forgotten about soon enough but racism will still be here unless more work is done to counter it.
The incident 3000 miles away is not an isolated incident though and that’s the main problem. There is institutional racism in the justice system both here and in America. That is why people are rightly protesting. Maybe we should listen rather than condemn.


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[Berwickhibby]

There is still a lot of work to be done to end racism though so we have to keep going.
The cenotaph will be repaired and it will be forgotten about soon enough but racism will still be here unless more work is done to counter it.
The incident 3000 miles away is not an isolated incident though and that’s the main problem. There is institutional racism in the justice system both here and in America. That is why people are rightly protesting. Maybe we should listen rather than condemn.


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So it will be repaired so that's ok.... or do you believe it's ok and support the action of vandalising the National memorial to the fallen military

[Ozyhibby]

So it will be repaired so that's ok.... or do you believe it's ok and support the action of vandalising the National memorial to the fallen military

Someone on a protest done a bad thing. Doesn’t make the protest wrong. Any football fan knows that in a large crowd there is the potential for some idiot to do something the rest of the crowd don’t agree with. Doesn’t mean football should be stopped. Vast majority protested peacefully.


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[Berwickhibby]

Someone on a protest done a bad thing. Doesn’t make the protest wrong. Any football fan knows that in a large crowd there is the potential for some idiot to do something the rest of the crowd don’t agree with. Doesn’t mean football should be stopped. Vast majority protested peacefully.


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Attacked on 3 separate days ....never once said the protest is wrong .... but do you think it's justified to vandalise the cenotaph

[Ozyhibby]

Attacked on 3 separate days ....never once said the protest is wrong .... but do you think it's justified to vandalise the cenotaph

No but I’m not overly concerned about it either.


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[Hibrandenburg]

If we bow to protestors now then they will come back later demanding something else.....we dont negotiate with terrorists so why negotiate with protesters

You sound familiar.

[EAZY-ME]

You sound familiar.

So do you im afraid

[hibsbollah]

You sound familiar.

Get a room FFS :agree:

[CapitalGreen]

Attacked on 3 separate days ....never once said the protest is wrong .... but do you think it's justified to vandalise the cenotaph

Absolutely nobody suggested it was justified.

[EAZY-ME]

Look guys as i said earlier maybe i should have wrote "protesters".....as i was more referring to the element within that arent there for BLM and only there to cause violence and damage to property....sometimes i go off on a tangent and write before i think how others might construe it.....im angry at the ones tarnishing the cause for thier own gains. I don't think we should be changing street names or taking down statues as its part of Britains history.

[Berwickhibby]

Absolutely nobody suggested it was justified.

That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....

[lapsedhibee]

That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....

Ask it in a poll and you'll get plenty agreement.

[EAZY-ME]

That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....

I agree with you wholeheartedly......the romans conquered half the world...killed millions and enslaved countless men women and children........ do we now destroy all statues and bulldoze the buildings and sites they left behind

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/munyachawawa/status/1270426173890351105

Monument protectors off to London. Sweary words are involved.:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree with you wholeheartedly......the romans conquered half the world...killed millions and enslaved countless men women and children........ do we now destroy all statues and bulldoze the buildings and sites they left behind

Yeah. What did they ever do for us?

[EAZY-ME]

Yeah. What did they ever do for us?

What about the roads

[Berwickhibby]

https://twitter.com/munyachawawa/status/1270426173890351105

Monument protectors off to London. Sweary words are involved.:wink:

The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish

[Sir David Gray]

That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....

You're not on your own.

I've not commented on this thread yet but I've been reading it.

I personally don't have a problem with statues of slave traders being removed although I do think they still have their place in a museum. However I don't see the point or the need to rename streets.

Defacing the cenotaph is disgraceful, no excuse for that at all.

[Berwickhibby]

You're not on your own.

I've not commented on this thread yet but I've been reading it.

I personally don't have a problem with statues of slave traders being removed although I do think they still have their place in a museum. However I don't see the point or the need to rename streets.

Defacing the cenotaph is disgraceful, no excuse for that at all.

Thanks....your post is greatly appreciated

[makaveli1875]

Iv refrained from commenting but i would say rename streets , take down dodgy statues but ffs theres no need for the vandalism of memorials . Folk doing this **** are ********s the folk excusing it are ********s

[CapitalGreen]

The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish

Unfortunately these ex military guys will end up being associated with Tommy Robinson and his ilk the same way that the peaceful protestors have been associated with those involved in violence and vandalism.

[CapitalGreen]

You're not on your own.

I've not commented on this thread yet but I've been reading it.

I personally don't have a problem with statues of slave traders being removed although I do think they still have their place in a museum. However I don't see the point or the need to rename streets.

Defacing the cenotaph is disgraceful, no excuse for that at all.


Iv refrained from commenting but i would say rename streets , take down dodgy statues but ffs theres no need for the vandalism of memorials . Folk doing this **** are ********s the folk excusing it are ********s

I know I’m at risk of repeating myself here but no one on this thread has condoned the vandalism of war memorials.

[Speedy]

The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish

It will symbolise different things to different people. Some positive, some negative and for many it will mean not much at all.

[lord bunberry]

I’m all for a bit of anarchy now and again. Throughout history it’s been proven to be effective in getting results. No streets where named after anarchists or statues built, but we still manage to remember these events. I’d take down the statues and rename the streets. These people don’t deserve the honour.

[Kato]

Look guys as i said earlier maybe i should have wrote "protesters".....as i was more referring to the element within that arent there for BLM and only there to cause violence and damage to property....sometimes i go off on a tangent and write before i think how others might construe it.....im angry at the ones tarnishing the cause for thier own gains. I don't think we should be changing street names or taking down statues as its part of Britains history.History is fluid, it could be that removing some statues becomes part of it.

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[Speedy]

History is fluid, it could be that removing some statues becomes part of it.

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I'm not suggesting a knee jerk reaction to change all the streets, we are an old nation so bad people are part of our history, but I agree with this point. Countries have changed names / areas over the years, I'm sure we can manage with the odd street change.

[Slavers]

It'ironic that statues of slave traders are being torn down whilst the world is further enslaved to a debt system due to the Coronavirus.

[ronaldo7]

The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish

Who do you think will be on our tv at the week end?

It certainly won't be the ex corporal, now working in Aldi.

They'd be best leaving it to your ex workmates.

[CropleyWasGod]

It'ironic that statues of slave traders are being torn down whilst the world is further enslaved to a debt system due to the Coronavirus.

And in a hundred years we'll be tearing down statues of Bill Gates and George Soros 🙄

[lord bunberry]

It'ironic that statues of slave traders are being torn down whilst the world is further enslaved to a debt system due to the Coronavirus.
That’s a different point and I strongly believe that the world is in such a bad state due to the system that allows the super rich to benefit from the the working class. In bygone days statues would be built for these people as well.

[CropleyWasGod]

That’s a different point and I strongly believe that the world is in such a bad state due to the system that allows the super rich to benefit from the the working class. In bygone days statues would be built for these people as well.

Following on from my previous post.... I said to my son that I'd like there to be statues of those guys, so that his great grandkids could be aghast that there was a time when people were paid different amounts of money to others.

[Sir David Gray]

I know I’m at risk of repeating myself here but no one on this thread has condoned the vandalism of war memorials.

I never said they had, I was just referring to the particular poster's post who felt he was on his own with his view and one of the points he had made was about the vandalising of the cenotaph.

[Hibrandenburg]

Look guys as i said earlier maybe i should have wrote "protesters".....as i was more referring to the element within that arent there for BLM and only there to cause violence and damage to property....sometimes i go off on a tangent and write before i think how others might construe it.....im angry at the ones tarnishing the cause for thier own gains. I don't think we should be changing street names or taking down statues as its part of Britains history.

I'm convinced, first thing tomorrow I'll be onto the Bürgermeister and petitioning him to get Theodor-Heuss-Platz changed back to Adolf-Hitler-Platz.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....

You're definitely not on your own. But I guess it boils down to 2 wrongs not making a right. However,,,,I'm more upset by a policeman kneeling on a black man's neck for 8 minutes and killing him that some graffiti on a highly symbolic arrangement of stones that can be repaired.

[lord bunberry]

Following on from my previous post.... I said to my son that I'd like there to be statues of those guys, so that his great grandkids could be aghast that there was a time when people were paid different amounts of money to others.
I hope you’re right in that I really do.

[Hibrandenburg]

The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish

Many ex military guys are supporters of Yaxley Lennon, Farage and other racist muppets.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm convinced, first thing tomorrow I'll be onto the Bürgermeister and petitioning him to get Theodor-Heuss-Platz changed back to Adolf-Hitler-Platz.

I take it that's the VeggieBurgerMeister?

[Hibrandenburg]

I take it that's the VeggieBurgerMeister?

Correct, but for all his faults he built brilliant autobahns.

[Berwickhibby]

You're definitely not on your own. But I guess it boils down to 2 wrongs not making a right. However,,,,I'm more upset by a policeman kneeling on a black man's neck for 8 minutes and killing him that some graffiti on a highly symbolic arrangement of stones that can be repaired.

Of course it worse.... but explain why vandalise a highly symbolic memorial which has nothing to do with the protest .... because they were wanting the shock and anger effect .... well they have it ... people will get hurt next weekend which I do not condone

[Berwickhibby]

Many ex military guys are supporters of Yaxley Lennon, Farage and other racist muppets.

Perhaps the ones you know....most of my ex Army mates are either Labour or Tory ...a couple are SNP but we all have our loony mates

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course it worse.... but explain why vandalise a highly symbolic memorial which has nothing to do with the protest .... because they were wanting the shock and anger effect .... well they have it ... people will get hurt next weekend which I do not condone

Your words "highly symbolic" jump out at me. For some, the Cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic past, for others an imperialist one.

[Hibrandenburg]

Of course it worse.... but explain why vandalise a highly symbolic memorial which has nothing to do with the protest .... because they were wanting the shock and anger effect .... well they have it ... people will get hurt next weekend which I do not condone

I can't explain it, but I guess it's some idiots way of expressing their anger at an establishment that they see as complicit in institutionalized racism. Same way that some of the hard of thinking think that throwing a pigs head into a mosque is fighting back against Islamic terrorism.

[Berwickhibby]

Your words "highly symbolic" jump out at me. For some, the Cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic past, for others an imperialist one.

Bizarrely I used the same term as Heilderberg but I don't see you questioning him about using it...and for the some who think the cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic or imperialist one then they should try educating themselves....it's a memorial to the men and woman who died in wars.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm convinced, first thing tomorrow I'll be onto the Bürgermeister and petitioning him to get Theodor-Heuss-Platz changed back to Adolf-Hitler-Platz.

Put of interest is there any debate in Germany around the Nazi era statues at the Olympiastadion?

I remember finding the whole complex both fascinating and chilling at the same time.

[Berwickhibby]

I can't explain it, but I guess it's some idiots way of expressing their anger at an establishment that they see as complicit in institutionalized racism. Same way that some of the hard of thinking think that throwing a pigs head into a mosque is fighting back against Islamic terrorism.

I know that one....did not take much detective skills to catch the idiot....just asked the local butcher who he sold pigs head to :faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

Bizarrely I used the same term as Heilderberg but I don't see you questioning him about using it...and for the some who think the cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic or imperialist one then they should try educating themselves....it's a memorial to the men and woman who died in wars.

Think you're being a tad sensitive. I'm not questioning you. I merely pointed out, without judgement, what the symbolism is to different people.

[Hibrandenburg]

Put of interest is there any debate in Germany around the Nazi era statues at the Olympiastadion?

I remember finding the whole complex both fascinating and chilling at the same time.

Any direct link to the Nazis has been eliminated as far I know. There are statues surrounding the stadium that the Nazis liked but they were designed to represent figures from ancient Greece and the source of the modern Olympics. There is an old bell from the Olympic Glockenturm that was adorned with swastikas that were welded out, but you can still see them if you look closely. The surrounding area had a few street names that had loose connections to the Nazis, but they have all been changed. I think you'd be hard pressed to find much that reflects on that era in a positive way.

[Speedy]

Bizarrely I used the same term as Heilderberg but I don't see you questioning him about using it...and for the some who think the cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic or imperialist one then they should try educating themselves....it's a memorial to the men and woman who died in wars.

It's a valid point though. A symbol means different things to different people.

Poppy
Union jack / saltire
Confederate flag

[Mon Dieu4]

It's a valid point though. A symbol means different things to different people.

Poppy
Union jack / saltire
Confederate flag

Even though it's a sign of the racist comfederate southern states, the confederate flag will always mean the dukes of hazzard to me

Now that I know more than when I did as a kid and know who the car is named after :rolleyes:

[Berwickhibby]

Put of interest is there any debate in Germany around the Nazi era statues at the Olympiastadion?

I remember finding the whole complex both fascinating and chilling at the same time.

The only remnants of Nazi decor, were in the barracks...in Oxford Bks Munster there was a swazika and eagle carved into the wall over the RHQ Entrance... I think the Allies destroyed anything Nazi related

[Speedy]

Even though it's a sign of the racist comfederate southern states, the confederate flag will always mean the dukes of hazzard to me

Now that I know more than when I did as a kid and know who the car is named after :rolleyes:

Absolutely. Some people may tell you it's a symbol of pride and heritage, others will say that is very wrong.

[Hibrandenburg]

The only remnants of Nazi decor, were in the barracks...in Oxford Bks Munster there was a swazika and eagle carved into the wall over the RHQ Entrance... I think the Allies destroyed anything Nazi related

I think the Germans destroyed anything Nazi related, they had to come to terms with their past whereas in the UK it was and still is our chance to swath ourselves in righteousness after centuries of imperialism which is fascism in all but name.

[CropleyWasGod]

Absolutely. Some people may tell you it's a symbol of pride and heritage, others will say that is very wrong.

And some will say "play Free Bird!!!"

[G B Young]

Bizarrely I used the same term as Heilderberg but I don't see you questioning him about using it...and for the some who think the cenotaph is symbolic of a heroic or imperialist one then they should try educating themselves....it's a memorial to the men and woman who died in wars.

I'm with you on this. As I mentioned earlier, desecrating the Centotaph would be a surefire way to alienate public support for Black Lives Matter.

[G B Young]

On a lighter note (hopefully, as I'm assuming they weren't renowned racists), did plans for a commemorative statue to the Famous Five ever get off the ground - or did I just imagine that was ever a thing?

[CropleyWasGod]

On a lighter note (hopefully, as I'm assuming they weren't renowned racists), did plans for a commemorative statue to the Famous Five ever get off the ground - or did I just imagine that was ever a thing?

It was a thing. Some might suggest that it was a PR thing for Hibernian Retro. It didn't go anywhere
.

[Berwickhibby]

I think the Germans destroyed anything Nazi related, they had to come to terms with their past whereas in the UK it was and still is our chance to swath ourselves in righteousness after centuries of imperialism which is fascism in all but name.

I think you are wrong ...denazification was an Allied initiative to rid Germany and Austria of everything Nazi including physical reminders. Strangely it was Topic that came up when I did my colloquial German language course...I googled the term to confirm I am correct.

[McD]

Couple of points of order....first I have no idea whether the officer considered himself a right minded citizen and I don't care...he crossed the line at the very least when he killed Mr Floyd, due process and the criminal justice system will deal with him.

That said that why does his criminal action 3000 miles away justify the sickening attack on cenotaph?

show me where I have ever suggested that right wing groups are right minded...you won't as it that is most stupid assumption I have read .... I have fought against racism since the 70s ever since my mind was opened by the likes of the Clash


mate you’ve totally misconstrued my post, the original reply to your point makes it clear that I don’t consider you a part of those groups. It also compared right wing groups to the American police officer, not any attacks on the cenotaph. I specifically went out my way to highlight that as a very important monument and that I did not consider your position to be in line with these right wing groups. You’ve either missed that post completely or ignored it.



In the post of yours that I originally replied to, you’ll see that you described possible right wing groups of people travelling to London to ‘protect’ monuments as seeing themselves as right minded citizens. It’s a phrase you introduced, not me. It’s not a stupid assumption, it’s what you said. I made the comparison that the American police officer may also see himself as such, to make the point that someone seeing themselves that way doesn’t mean they are in the right.


im going to bow out of this particular part of the conversation now as this isn’t the first time you’ve misinterpreted another persons post and flown off the handle in response. I’ve no doubt whatsoever that you are against racism, and were (and are) an honourable member of the police, and the human race in general. I think you’re maybe too close to this as you seem to be confusing criticism of some actions as criticism of the police and/or your position.

hope you have a great day, genuinely

[McD]

Attacked on 3 separate days ....never once said the protest is wrong .... but do you think it's justified to vandalise the cenotaph


That's why I asked a question .....but obviously I am on my own on here who is genuinely angry by the vandalism to that particular monument.....


The ex military guys going down to protect the Cenotaph this weekend have nothing to with that horrible cretin.... but had the fu ckwits had the decency not desrepct the memorial to the dead then, those Right Wing would not platform to spout their pish


sorry, I know I said I was out, but I just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with you about the attacks on the cenotaph (I probably didn’t make that clear enough before as I was focussed on the follow up right wing people), and I agree that not vandalising the cenotaph means these right wing groups wouldn’t have been given an excuse to spout their crap

[lapsedhibee]

I think you are wrong ...denazification was an Allied initiative to rid Germany and Austria of everything Nazi including physical reminders.
Started by Allies but handed over to Germany pretty soon thereafter, I think.

[Berwickhibby]

sorry, I know I said I was out, but I just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with you about the attacks on the cenotaph (I probably didn’t make that clear enough before as I was focussed on the follow up right wing people), and I agree that not vandalising the cenotaph means these right wing groups wouldn’t have been given an excuse to spout their crap

That's fair comment thanks, I loathe the far right ....I also loathe unnecessary violence...

[Berwickhibby]

Started by Allies but handed over to Germany pretty soon thereafter, I think.

Yup 1949 ....4 years after the war had ended

[The Modfather]

On a lighter note (hopefully, as I'm assuming they weren't renowned racists), did plans for a commemorative statue to the Famous Five ever get off the ground - or did I just imagine that was ever a thing?

The statue wouldn’t last 5 minutes before it was hauled down for sexism.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thetab.com/uk/2019/08/27/enid-blytons-books-were-racist-xenophobic-and-sexist-we-shouldnt-be-celebrating-her-121609/amp

[CropleyWasGod]

The statue wouldn’t last 5 minutes before it was hauled down for sexism.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thetab.com/uk/2019/08/27/enid-blytons-books-were-racist-xenophobic-and-sexist-we-shouldnt-be-celebrating-her-121609/amp

I'd disagree with the accusation of sexism. A 50:50 gender split, at least one of whom was sexually confused. There's also a nod to BDSM in its frequent references to lashings. Quite enlightened I'd say.

And then there was Uncle Quentin. Lots to analyse there . What really was his relationship with Fanny?

Where I have an issue with it is its under-representation of animals. One dog FFS. Tokenism at its worst.

[lapsedhibee]

Yup 1949 ....4 years after the war had ended

So Germany has had 70+ years to reflect on the dodgy bits of its past. Whereas Britain starts this month.

[Hibrandenburg]

So Germany has had 70+ years to reflect on the dodgy bits of its past. Whereas Britain starts this month.

That is blatantly apparent in the mentality when you compare other countries. Britain still waves flags and fondly recollects its bloody and murderous past whilst the Germans in general have been thoroughly ashamed for decades.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd disagree with the accusation of sexism. A 50:50 gender split, at least one of whom was sexually confused. There's also a nod to BDSM in its frequent references to lashings. Quite enlightened I'd say.

And then there was Uncle Quentin. Lots to analyse there . What really was his relationship with Fanny?

Where I have an issue with it is its under-representation of animals. One dog FFS. Tokenism at its worst.

But, he was a Tim, so she was covering religious diversity too.

[Smartie]

That is blatantly apparent in the mentality when you compare other countries. Britain still waves flags and fondly recollects its bloody and murderous past whilst the Germans in general have been thoroughly ashamed for decades.

I'm not convinced Britain has any awareness whatsoever of its murderous past. A mild recollection of a bit of sport with old Johnny Foreigner perhaps but certainly not the ghastly stuff you mention. Old boy.

[ronaldo7]

Many ex military guys are supporters of Yaxley Lennon, Farage and other racist muppets.

Whilst watching the Victoria Derbyshire programme this morning, they had a small voxpop entitled "Racism in the Ranks". It's now on the BBC iPlayer.

Quite a decent wee piece on the way things are handled in the Army, and how young squaddies can be groomed, and easily led.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p085s6kz/racism-in-the-ranks

[Berwickhibby]

That is blatantly apparent in the mentality when you compare other countries. Britain still waves flags and fondly recollects its bloody and murderous past whilst the Germans in general have been thoroughly ashamed for decades.

Things must have changed greatly recently, I would say Germans are just as raciest as the British. Their targets tended to be Polish and Eastern Europeans including East Germans rather than BAME. In the 80s auszeitlers mainly from Poland and parts of Russia were granted entry into the then West Germany. Due to lack of social housing there was a backlash against them being housed including physical attacks....speaking to my German friends today, I have had to challange their language when they talk about the middle Eastern refugees.

[Scouse Hibee]

I wonder if those wishing to rip down statues and change street and road names connected to slavery have the same attitude to buying cloths from the likes of Primark made by children in sweatshops pretty much typical of modern slavery.
History by definition is done, far better to spend your time and energy trying to improve or change practices that are current and happening.
If we wiped out all the reminders of times gone by we would never be able to recognise how far we have come and improved life, you can’t change history but you can try to improve the legacy of history we leave behind.

[Mon Dieu4]

I wonder if those wishing to rip down statues and change street and road names connected to slavery have the same attitude to buying cloths from the likes of Primark made by children in sweatshops pretty much typical of modern slavery.
History by definition is done, far better to spend your time and energy trying to improve or change practices that are current and happening.
If we wiped out all the reminders of times gone by we would never be able to recognise how far we have come and improved life, you can’t change history but you can try to improve the legacy of history we leave behind.

Correct there are millions and millions of people enslaved world wide right now, they should start with that then start talking about statues and street names

[Smartie]

I wonder if those wishing to rip down statues and change street and road names connected to slavery have the same attitude to buying cloths from the likes of Primark made by children in sweatshops pretty much typical of modern slavery.
History by definition is done, far better to spend your time and energy trying to improve or change practices that are current and happening.
If we wiped out all the reminders of times gone by we would never be able to recognise how far we have come and improved life, you can’t change history but you can try to improve the legacy of history we leave behind.

This is a very good point, and not one that I'd thought much about.

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder if those wishing to rip down statues and change street and road names connected to slavery have the same attitude to buying cloths from the likes of Primark made by children in sweatshops pretty much typical of modern slavery.
History by definition is done, far better to spend your time and energy trying to improve or change practices that are current and happening.
If we wiped out all the reminders of times gone by we would never be able to recognise how far we have come and improved life, you can’t change history but you can try to improve the legacy of history we leave behind.

This is actually a very good point.

[CropleyWasGod]

Correct there are millions and millions of people enslaved world wide right now, they should start with that then start talking about statues and street names

TBF, a lot of those who are involved in the kind of protests we've seen recently will also be boycotting Nike, Primark, Amazon and the likes.

[lapsedhibee]

Correct there are millions and millions of people enslaved world wide right now, they should start with that then start talking about statues and street names

Too late. People are already talking about statues. And the two aims can shirley be pursued simultaneously?

[Bristolhibby]

Correct there are millions and millions of people enslaved world wide right now, they should start with that then start talking about statues and street names

Can we do both?

And if we can do both, can we start with statues of slavers and murderers?

Low hanging fruit and all that.

J

[Peevemor]

TBF, a lot of those who are involved in the kind of protests we've seen recently will also be boycotting Nike, Primark, Amazon and the likes.

The problem is that the world is becoming more and more horrible, and as long as we vote in people like Bojo, Trump, Macron & their cronies things aren't going to improve.

[lord bunberry]

The problem is that the world is becoming more and more horrible, and as long as we vote in people like Bojo, Trump, Macron & their cronies things aren't going to improve.
:top marks

[JeMeSouviens]

Can we do both?

And if we can do both, can we start with statues of slavers and murderers?

Low hanging fruit and all that.

J

:agree:

Symbolism is important. It's one thing having these old statues kicking around and nobody knowing much who's up there. But what sort of message is being sent to young black Britons now that it's been forced into the public consciousness?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can we do both?

And if we can do both, can we start with statues of slavers and murderers?

Low hanging fruit and all that.

J

Slavers.

Now there's a thought........

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not convinced Britain has any awareness whatsoever of its murderous past. A mild recollection of a bit of sport with old Johnny Foreigner perhaps but certainly not the ghastly stuff you mention. Old boy.

Spiffingly precise.

[Mon Dieu4]

You can do both, but when you actually see the amount of people in slavery today it's more than there ever had been, the numbers are truly staggering and this is just the top 10

23552

[neil7908]

I wonder if those wishing to rip down statues and change street and road names connected to slavery have the same attitude to buying cloths from the likes of Primark made by children in sweatshops pretty much typical of modern slavery.
History by definition is done, far better to spend your time and energy trying to improve or change practices that are current and happening.
If we wiped out all the reminders of times gone by we would never be able to recognise how far we have come and improved life, you can’t change history but you can try to improve the legacy of history we leave behind.

Although I don't know personally anyone that tore statues down, I'd be very surprised if you many folk that heavily engaged in the social justice movement were regular Primark shoppers. I know a few who went to the Edinburgh protest and they wouldn't spend their money their in a million years.

Also, I don't think your argument makes any sense - do you really think they just want a couple of statues down? They want an end to racial discrimination in the UK (does the name Black Lives Matter not give a clue) in the UK, so to improve the country - exactly what you are suggesting. I do think the media over here has been very focused on the street names and statues rather than the wider issues - the overall messages of justice have been much clearer in the US.

[Hibrandenburg]

Whilst watching the Victoria Derbyshire programme this morning, they had a small voxpop entitled "Racism in the Ranks". It's now on the BBC iPlayer.

Quite a decent wee piece on the way things are handled in the Army, and how young squaddies can be groomed, and easily led.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p085s6kz/racism-in-the-ranks

Will give that a watch R, thanks for the tip :thumbsup:

[Scouse Hibee]

Although I don't know personally anyone that tore statues down, I'd be very surprised if you many folk that heavily engaged in the social justice movement were regular Primark shoppers. I know a few who went to the Edinburgh protest and they wouldn't spend their money their in a million years.

Also, I don't think your argument makes any sense - do you really think they just want a couple of statues down? They want an end to racial discrimination in the UK (does the name Black Lives Matter not give a clue) in the UK, so to improve the country - exactly what you are suggesting. I do think the media over here has been very focused on the street names and statues rather than the wider issues - the overall messages of justice have been much clearer in the US.

I think the mob I saw in Bristol had no more thoughts in their minds other than to cause bother and rip down a statue, improving the country didn’t come across at all in their wild destructive moronic behaviour. Bandwagon jumpers is a label I would use.

[neil7908]

I think the mob I saw in Bristol had no more thoughts in their minds other to cause bother and rip down a statue, improving the country didn’t come across at all in their wild destructive moronic behaviour. Bandwagon jumpers is a label I would use.

I think that's a very strong opinion based on short video clip of people you've never met. FWIW I don't think they should have torn it down, whenever mobs get together and do stuff its generally not a positive thing.

But no one was hurt and ultimately I think the statue should never have been up in 2020. Rioting and looting could be argued as a selfish and destructive in that it's generally not targeted and involves personal gain (the looting part). This seems a pretty clear political act.

[Scouse Hibee]

I think that's a very strong opinion based on short video clip of people you've never met. FWIW I don't think they should have torn it down, whenever mobs get together and do stuff its generally not a positive thing.

But no one was hurt and ultimately I think the statue should never have been up in 2020. Rioting and looting could be argued as a selfish and destructive in that it's generally not targeted and involves personal gain (the looting part). This seems a pretty clear political act.

We tend to form opinions of people we’ve never met on their actions and behaviour, you may consider that simplistic but that’s how we do it. Those opinions might not always be correct but sometimes it’s hard to shake that belief once you have formed it.

I probably won’t have the opportunity to meet or converse with those involved so I will judge on their actions.
Like all things there are people who know or believe far more about this than I do and I respect that, this thread has proved that and has been a great read so far. Thanks for your responses, they have given me something to think about.

[Hibrandenburg]

Things must have changed greatly recently, I would say Germans are just as raciest as the British. Their targets tended to be Polish and Eastern Europeans including East Germans rather than BAME. In the 80s auszeitlers mainly from Poland and parts of Russia were granted entry into the then West Germany. Due to lack of social housing there was a backlash against them being housed including physical attacks....speaking to my German friends today, I have had to challange their language when they talk about the middle Eastern refugees.

Of course there are racist Germans, especially amongst your friends by the sound of it. But I'm talking about the national identity. Something like last night of the proms would be unthinkable, even their football fans were uneasy about waving German flags until the last world cup in Germany, there were endless debates about that very subject. Britain has a shameful past but somehow we turn it into a "whae's like us" extravaganza.

[Smartie]

I think the mob I saw in Bristol had no more thoughts in their minds other than to cause bother and rip down a statue, improving the country didn’t come across at all in their wild destructive moronic behaviour. Bandwagon jumpers is a label I would use.

Not sure that's entirely true though. Bristol is a big place, and like most cities will likely have hundreds of statues. If it was purely about causing bother and ripping down a statue then why that one? There had clearly been dialogue in the area regarding the merits of allowing such a statue to stand (a dialogue that seems to be going on around the country now, as is surely appropriate) and there they just went a step further than most places by symbolically tearing it down and dumping it in the water.

The merits of the actions are up for debate but I don't think it's fair to label it simply as rabble-rousing. Hoying a statue of a contentious figure into the sea is quite a gesture, and as protests go doesn't appear to have a huge human cost.

I'm much more uncomfortable with the policemen injured at the London protests and the potential coronavirus impact that protest (and others) might have a few weeks down the line.

[neil7908]

We tend to form opinions of people we’ve never met on their actions and behaviour, you may consider that simplistic but that’s how we do it. Those opinions might not always be correct but sometimes it’s hard to shake that belief once you have formed it.

I probably won’t have the opportunity to meet or converse with those involved so I will judge on their actions.
Like all things there are people who know or believe far more about this than I do and I respect that, this thread has proved that and has been a great read so far. Thanks for your responses, they have given me something to think about.

Ditto, it's been an interesting read and although some disagreement, a lot more common ground and all conducted respectfully.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the mob I saw in Bristol had no more thoughts in their minds other than to cause bother and rip down a statue, improving the country didn’t come across at all in their wild destructive moronic behaviour. Bandwagon jumpers is a label I would use.

There's been a campaign to remove that statue for years which was stalled over putting plaques up and what the wording should be. It was pretty clear the "mob" in Bristol was actually a well organised and planned statue removal team. They were "exuberant" in the process but it was anything but random destruction.

[Berwickhibby]

Of course there are racist Germans, especially amongst your friends by the sound of it. But I'm talking about the national identity. Something like last night of the proms would be unthinkable, even their football fans were uneasy about waving German flags until the last world cup in Germany, there were endless debates about that very subject. Britain has a shameful past but somehow we turn it into a "whae's like us" extravaganza.

Really, I was with the German supporters for the whole of Euro 96 (as I speak German) the majority had German flags and were happy to wave them and support their country ...uneasy my arse

[G B Young]

There's been a campaign to remove that statue for years which was stalled over putting plaques up and what the wording should be. It was pretty clear the "mob" in Bristol was actually a well organised and planned statue removal team. They were "exuberant" in the process but it was anything but random destruction.

As I posted earlier, Avon and Somerset Police confirmed it was a pre-planned rather than spontaneous removal of the statue.

[Hibrandenburg]

Really, I was with the German supporters for the whole of Euro 96 (as I speak German) the majority had German flags and were happy to wave them and support their country ...uneasy my arse

Well I can tell you it was heavily debated up to parliamentary level. German national identity is a complicated one.

[G B Young]

Calls for the pyramids to be torn down apparently:

https://egyptindependent.com/british-anti-racism-protestors-call-for-destruction-of-giza-pyramids/

How far back do we go with these attempts to paper over world history?!

[CapitalGreen]

Calls for the pyramids to be torn down apparently:

https://egyptindependent.com/british-anti-racism-protestors-call-for-destruction-of-giza-pyramids/

How far back do we go with these attempts to paper over world history?!

Nowhere in that article does it quote anyone calling for the pyramids to be torn down. Surely we can have a better level of debate than resorting to the sharing of obvious click bait headlines and articles.

[Berwickhibby]

Well I can tell you it was heavily debated up to parliamentary level. German national identity is a complicated one.

I honestly don't know how heavily it was debated, but I agree the German National Identity is complicated. Most of my friends are mid to late 50s and I have nephews and nieces in their 30s and I would say everyone of them have a different opinion of German idenity.

[JeMeSouviens]

Calls for the pyramids to be torn down apparently:

https://egyptindependent.com/british-anti-racism-protestors-call-for-destruction-of-giza-pyramids/

How far back do we go with these attempts to paper over world history?!

The article is a load of bollocks. ********'s like Farage's chum Andy Wigmore made the fatuous comparison between the pyramids and slaver statues, not "anti-racism campaigners".

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1269680575549452288

The unspoken truth is that right wingers like this clown actually like having statues of slavery around because it reminds them of the good old days when Britannia ruled the waves and did whatever the hell it liked.

[Moulin Yarns]

So it will be repaired so that's ok.... or do you believe it's ok and support the action of vandalising the National memorial to the fallen military

https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23B36Q?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15917946274853&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2 ***-factcheck-cenotaph-idUSKBN23B36Q

Believe it or not but it wasn't graffitied during the Black lives matter protest but later on D-day. It is also not the first time it has been targeted.

[Berwickhibby]

https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23B36Q?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15917946274853&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2 ***-factcheck-cenotaph-idUSKBN23B36Q

Believe it or not but it wasn't graffitied during the Black lives matter protest. It is also not the first time it has been targeted.

Yes it was I have a photo of the BLM black spray paint tag before it was cleaned....and according to Reuters "this check has been updated to add a paragraph reporting that the cenotaph while not damaged on June 3rd was later marked with graffit on June 6th" plus the fu ckwits climbing, trying to set fire to the flags.... In my opinion that vandalism

[Hibrandenburg]

I honestly don't know how heavily it was debated, but I agree the German National Identity is complicated. Most of my friends are mid to late 50s and I have nephews and nieces in their 30s and I would say everyone of them have a different opinion of German idenity.

How many of them celebrate their imperial past?

[Kato]

Calls for the pyramids to be torn down apparently:

https://egyptindependent.com/british-anti-racism-protestors-call-for-destruction-of-giza-pyramids/

How far back do we go with these attempts to paper over world history?!Who exactly is calling for this?

Looks like an attempt to undermine valid arguments by introducing arguments which are totally stupid.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

How many of them celebrate their imperial past?

Don't know...never asked them but I would guess zero

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't know...never asked them but I would guess zero

Which is exactly the point I was making earlier.

[Smartie]

Who exactly is calling for this?

Looks like an attempt to undermine valid arguments by introducing arguments which are totally stupid.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

It's one of the strawiest straw man arguments I've encountered.

[Hibrandenburg]

Has anyone thought about the poor pigeons?

[G B Young]

Nowhere in that article does it quote anyone calling for the pyramids to be torn down. Surely we can have a better level of debate than resorting to the sharing of obvious click bait headlines and articles.

Yep, that's why I said 'apparently'.

Does it raise a valid question regarding how far you take things though? Clearly tearing down the pyramids or indeed demolishing the city centres of Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow etc would unrealistic and absurd, but there isn't there an element of hypocrisy in that we continue to walk the streets, use the houses/public buildings/hospitals/schools etc that were funded by the wealth of those with a connection to the slave industry yet convince ourselves that pulling down a statue or changing a street name can in some way soften the more distasteful aspects of our history?

[CropleyWasGod]

It's one of the strawiest straw man arguments I've encountered.

There was a lot of straw used in the building of the pyramids.

Just saying.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yep, that's why I said 'apparently'.

Does it raise a valid question regarding how far you take things though? Clearly tearing down the pyramids or indeed demolishing the city centres of Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow etc would unrealistic and absurd, but there isn't there an element of hypocrisy in that we continue to walk the streets, use the houses/public buildings/hospitals/schools etc that were funded by the wealth of those with a connection to the slave industry yet convince ourselves that pulling down a statue or changing a street name can in some way soften the more distasteful aspects of our history?

No. A street or a building has current utility for all. A statue of a slaver is solely there to confer honour on that slaver.

Pretty obvious difference?

[Kato]

but there isn't there an element of hypocrisy in that we continue to walk the streets, use the houses/public buildings/hospitals/schools etc that were funded by the wealth of those with a connection to the slave industry yet convince ourselves that pulling down a statue or changing a street name can in some way soften the more distasteful aspects of our history?


Can you see the difference between buildings and streets which have a utilitarian value despite their origins and a symbol (i.e. a statue) which celebrates those origins?

If so there is no debate to be had other than a deliberately awkward one based on a flawed logic.

If not let's hear your views on why its hypocritical.


Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[CapitalGreen]

Yep, that's why I said 'apparently'.

Does it raise a valid question regarding how far you take things though? Clearly tearing down the pyramids or indeed demolishing the city centres of Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow etc would unrealistic and absurd, but there isn't there an element of hypocrisy in that we continue to walk the streets, use the houses/public buildings/hospitals/schools etc that were funded by the wealth of those with a connection to the slave industry yet convince ourselves that pulling down a statue or changing a street name can in some way soften the more distasteful aspects of our history?

No I don’t believe what you have stated meets the definition of hypocrisy. Most people can recognise that a building, school etc has a positive utility which a statue does not. Most people using a school or a hospital are using it for its stated purpose of being educated or treated for illness, they are not using it as a means of celebrating the life of the slave trader who funded it. What utility does a statue provide other than to celebrate and glorify the life of the person it depicts?

P.S. for what it’s worth, archaeologists don’t believe the pyramids of Giza were built by slaves.

[Smartie]

Was it possible to be a "success" in the 18th or 19th century (when it seems most statues were commissioned) without being someone who had a life story with 2 distinct sides to it? How did the great philanthropists become wealthy? How many people suffered at the hands of the greatest politicians in history? How many people died during the medical experiments that led to our greatest discoveries?

I'm sure the same could be said today. The greatest humans almost always have a flip side with a huge number of people who really aren't into what they do.

Goodies and baddies is a bit simplistic.

[lapsedhibee]

Was it possible to be a "success" in the 18th or 19th century (when it seems most statues were commissioned) without being someone who had a life story with 2 distinct sides to it? How did the great philanthropists become wealthy? How many people suffered at the hands of the greatest politicians in history? How many people died during the medical experiments that led to our greatest discoveries?

I'm sure the same could be said today. The greatest humans almost always have a flip side with a huge number of people who really aren't into what they do.

Goodies and baddies is a bit simplistic.

A point made by the 10th Viscount Melville on the tellybox the other day.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was it possible to be a "success" in the 18th or 19th century (when it seems most statues were commissioned) without being someone who had a life story with 2 distinct sides to it? How did the great philanthropists become wealthy? How many people suffered at the hands of the greatest politicians in history? How many people died during the medical experiments that led to our greatest discoveries?

I'm sure the same could be said today. The greatest humans almost always have a flip side with a huge number of people who really aren't into what they do.

Goodies and baddies is a bit simplistic.

Cough... Elon Musk....cough.

[Bristolhibby]

I think the mob I saw in Bristol had no more thoughts in their minds other than to cause bother and rip down a statue, improving the country didn’t come across at all in their wild destructive moronic behaviour. Bandwagon jumpers is a label I would use.

Na, The Colston statue has been a lightening rod for years. Like was said, you are on a BLM march, the Colston Statue is literally in the centre of Bristol it was always going to be the focus.

J

[Bristolhibby]

I think that's a very strong opinion based on short video clip of people you've never met. FWIW I don't think they should have torn it down, whenever mobs get together and do stuff its generally not a positive thing.

But no one was hurt and ultimately I think the statue should never have been up in 2020. Rioting and looting could be argued as a selfish and destructive in that it's generally not targeted and involves personal gain (the looting part). This seems a pretty clear political act.

Just to add, thanks to the Avon & Somerset Police pragmatic policing there was no rioting or looting of shops in Bristol or any violence against the Police.

(Much to Priti Patels annoyance).

The statue was brought down, rolled along the street, and dumped into the very harbour that slaves and the goods produced by slaves were unloaded.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Who exactly is calling for this?

Looks like an attempt to undermine valid arguments by introducing arguments which are totally stupid.

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Off the scale Whatabouttary.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

There was a lot of straw used in the building of the pyramids.

Just saying.

Sounds like an episode of Grand Designs.

Kevin McCloud fetches up, praises Tutankhamen for choosing to use straw as an eco-friendly insulating material. Winter kicks in and the pyramid isn’t built. Tut and the missus are stuck in a caravan on-site. She becomes pregnant (just after Kevin’s visit). He goes back and the pyramid is finished, albeit over budget but with magnificent views of the Nile delta and a redolance of smugness for Tut and his wife. Apart from the lingering doubt about whether he was actually the father.

[Scouse Hibee]

Na, The Colston statue has been a lightening rod for years. Like was said, you are on a BLM march, the Colston Statue is literally in the centre of Bristol it was always going to be the focus.

J

Okay fair enough, I stand corrected after your post and others that have said it was in effect an organised removal rather than a spur of the moment act of vandalism on the rampage.

[1 8 7 5]

I'm not a fan of renaming streets and the like, I think there is a risk of whitewashing history (no pun intended).

Far better to give a more balanced view of history, educate people and explain how these people made their money. It's difficult to judge people by modern standards, they are a product of their time. Read the content of some of Abraham Lincolns speech and there is little doubt the man was a racist as an obviously paradoxical example.

There is a wonderful opportunity to point out to people how the world has moved on, how our standards now are higher and how we can still be better still.

Disagree a bit here. Rename wherever we can inmho. To stop the potential of white washing, throw that **** in a museum, and teach in schools.

[G B Young]

No I don’t believe what you have stated meets the definition of hypocrisy. Most people can recognise that a building, school etc has a positive utility which a statue does not. Most people using a school or a hospital are using it for its stated purpose of being educated or treated for illness, they are not using it as a means of celebrating the life of the slave trader who funded it. What utility does a statue provide other than to celebrate and glorify the life of the person it depicts?

P.S. for what it’s worth, archaeologists don’t believe the pyramids of Giza were built by slaves.

We may not be using these facilities as a means of celebrating those who funded them, but by using them for their practical purpose we are arguably benefiting from the funding source of those facilities (eg slavery). Does that mean we're fine with embracing the 'good' these benefactors did but are less comfortable being confronted with statues erected in honour of these 'good' deeds? As Smartie suggests, were these figures honoured for more than just the 'bad' things they did? Even a couple of centuries ago, I'd be surprised if anyone proposed erecting a statue to somebody solely on the basis of their contribution to the slave industry.

I get the thinking that even a small, token gesture like changing a street name sends out some sort of positive message but I do wonder if it's such a bad thing for a city to live with its good and bad sides on view rather than only allow the bits we approve of to remain front of mind.

[RyeSloan]

Sounds like an episode of Grand Designs.

Kevin McCloud fetches up, praises Tutankhamen for choosing to use straw as an eco-friendly insulating material. Winter kicks in and the pyramid isn’t built. Tut and the missus are stuck in a caravan on-site. She becomes pregnant (just after Kevin’s visit). He goes back and the pyramid is finished, albeit over budget but with magnificent views of the Nile delta and a redolance of smugness for Tut and his wife. Apart from the lingering doubt about whether he was actually the father.

[emoji23][emoji23]

At least in this episode they got the damn thing finished....I really hate it when you spend an hour watching and it’s still not bloody done by the end!

Anyway we may be digressing from the subject matter of the thread somewhat...to balance it up I see ECC have shown some unusual speed and produced proposed text for a plaque to exclude the need to tear down Mr Dundas...while oddly also dedicating the monument to the slaves....I’m probably going to need to get that part explained to me as I’m not entirely getting the logic of that!

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes it was I have a photo of the BLM black spray paint tag before it was cleaned....and according to Reuters "this check has been updated to add a paragraph reporting that the cenotaph while not damaged on June 3rd was later marked with graffit on June 6th" plus the fu ckwits climbing, trying to set fire to the flags.... In my opinion that vandalism



https://www-mylondon-news.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/police-dispel-rumours-cenotaph-being-18360724.amp?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15918244531564&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mylondon.news%2Fnews%2F zone-1-news%2Fpolice-dispel-rumours-cenotaph-being-18360724


Police dispel rumours of damage to cenotaph during black lives matter demonstration on June 3rd. Photos from 2010 used as smear campaign.

BLM Graffi on foreign and commonwealth Office buildings instead.

[SideBurns]

We may not be using these facilities as a means of celebrating those who funded them, but by using them for their practical purpose we are arguably benefiting from the funding source of those facilities (eg slavery). Does that mean we're fine with embracing the 'good' these benefactors did but are less comfortable being confronted with statues erected in honour of these 'good' deeds? As Smartie suggests, were these figures honoured for more than just the 'bad' things they did? Even a couple of centuries ago, I'd be surprised if anyone proposed erecting a statue to somebody solely on the basis of their contribution to the slave industry.

I get the thinking that even a small, token gesture like changing a street name sends out some sort of positive message but I do wonder if it's such a bad thing for a city to live with its good and bad sides on view rather than only allow the bits we approve of to remain front of mind.

I started typing a long-winded reply to this, but probably easier just to confirm I agree with all you've said here (which would've been the essence of my 'War & Peace'-sized post anyway).

[Slavers]

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984 (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)

[JeMeSouviens]

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984 (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)

Have you read 1984?

I'm guessing no. Well, either that or next level stupid.

[CapitalGreen]

Have you read 1984?

I'm guessing no. Well, either that or next level stupid.

Why bother reading a full text when you can just copy an out of context quote you’ve seen on social media.

[danhibees1875]

I'm not in favour of renaming streets. I like the idea of plaques which fully explain individuals roles played during the period of time though.

[Ozyhibby]

I think I’m just in favour of having less statues altogether. They can pull them all down as far as I’m concerned. Can’t remember ever walking past one and caring enough to read the plaque or find out who it is.


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[CropleyWasGod]

I think I’m just in favour of having less statues altogether. They can pull them all down as far as I’m concerned. Can’t remember ever walking past one and caring enough to read the plaque or find out who it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Philistine 😋

[Smartie]

I'm not in favour of renaming streets. I like the idea of plaques which fully explain individuals roles played during the period of time though.

Yeah, I think that's what should be done.

It's worth acknowledging the positivity of the progression we have made to get from "where we were" to "where we are". The biggest problem we often face is apathy or a feeling of futility about the ability to make meaningful change in future. To rip down statues or rename streets makes it harder to acknowledge with a sense of nuance where exactly we have come from. If we need a sense of belief that the next push to improve can really happen then we need a reminder that we have already evolved and improved, and that we must never stop striving for further improvement.

[Peevemor]

I think I’m just in favour of having less statues altogether. They can pull them all down as far as I’m concerned. Can’t remember ever walking past one and caring enough to read the plaque or find out who it is.


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Modern statues do attract my attention (guys sitting on benches in normal clothes are appearing everywhere now). Folk on horseback or dressed as ancient Greeks/Romans don't.

They're probably subject to trends the same as everything else.

[neil7908]

I think I’m just in favour of having less statues altogether. They can pull them all down as far as I’m concerned. Can’t remember ever walking past one and caring enough to read the plaque or find out who it is.


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Agreed. I've lived in Edinburgh for many years and couldn't tell you who there are statues of, with the exception of Greyfriars Bobby.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not in favour of renaming streets. I like the idea of plaques which fully explain individuals roles played during the period of time though.

So, I think there are 2 things in play here:

1. how do we educate ourselves about our own history?
2. how do we send a signal to the black community that having done (1) we understand their feelings, are sorry, would like to atone?

Plaques might prompt more people to go and do (1) but unless very strongly worded, are unlikely to achieve (2).

Of course, there are still a large body of people, including the Prime Minister*, who actually rejoice in Britain's imperial past and, though they might keep it under wraps a bit, feel anything but regret for what happened.




* "The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge any more"

[CropleyWasGod]

Talking of statues of dodgy people on horseback:-

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-william-of-orange-statue-faces-attack-over-slave-links-h73f3q2s2

[danhibees1875]

Agreed. I've lived in Edinburgh for many years and couldn't tell you who there are statues of, with the exception of Greyfriars Bobby.

There's only a few I could actually name. Walter Scott, Conan Doyle, David Hume, Queen Victoria, Dundas...

There's also quite a few that are dotted all over that I don't know who they are or have a particular interest to find out. But overall I think I'd rather keep them all, they all seem to add to the character of Edinburgh.

[Betty Boop]

Talking of statues of dodgy people on horseback:-

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-william-of-orange-statue-faces-attack-over-slave-links-h73f3q2s2


The Catholic Church also has history of being involved in slavery.


https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/08/06/religious-orders-owning-slaves-isnt-new-black-catholics-have-emphasized-history

[G B Young]

There's only a few I could actually name. Walter Scott, Conan Doyle, David Hume, Queen Victoria, Dundas...

There's also quite a few that are dotted all over that I don't know who they are or have a particular interest to find out. But overall I think I'd rather keep them all, they all seem to add to the character of Edinburgh.

Some quite interesting info on some of the main ones here:

https://ewh.org.uk/project/twelve-monuments/

[Keith_M]

I see there's a proposal to rename Dundas Street, in Edinburgh. I'd like to propose calling it Albert Kidd Terrace.

[CropleyWasGod]

The wording for a new plaque on the Melville Monument has been agreed.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/wording-plaque-melville-monument-edinburghs-st-andrew-square-approved-2882107

[neil7908]

I see there's a proposal to rename Dundas Street, in Edinburgh. I'd like to propose calling it Albert Kidd Terrace.

Seconded

[Glory Lurker]

I'd change Jamaica Street to Noshewantedtogo Street.

[Hibrandenburg]

In Berlin they have little brass plates on the ground outside the houses of where jews lived that were then sent to the concentration camps with their names on. Maybe something similar to highlight our seedy historical buildings or statues.

[Keith_M]

The biggest problem with extreme right wingers in Germany seems to be in the eastern Bundesländer.

Pegida and right-wing factions have a lot more backers in those areas.

Rostock was the scene of the worst violence against immigrants since the wall came down and Ultras from Chemnitz and Dresden are suspected of being behind the 'Sieg Heil' chants at a football game in Prague not so long ago.

However, I think that Germany has been much more successful at addressing the shameful parts of it's past than a lot of other countries (e.g. UK and USA).

[Stairway 2 7]

Should really topple 90% of ancient Greek roman Egyptian statues as will be slave owning people, how many generations do we go back

[G B Young]

The rush to rename is getting a bit daft when you read about stuff like this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53005676

Why not change the name of the band completely rather than just shorten the name if they care that much? And what are they actually so bothered about? The style of architecture doesn't appear to have any tangible connection to slavery - unless the houses were built by slaves, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Same goes for the One Little Indian record label mentioned further down. Does the shortened name not still derive from the original phrase?

[Andy74]

The rush to rename is getting a bit daft when you read about stuff like this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53005676

Why not change the name of the band completely rather than just shorten the name if they care that much? And what are they actually so bothered about? The style of architecture doesn't appear to have any tangible connection to slavery - unless the houses were built by slaves, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Same goes for the One Little Indian record label mentioned further down. Does the shortened name not still derive from the original phrase?

Washington Redskins must be next up...

[Hibrandenburg]

The biggest problem with extreme right wingers in Germany seems to be in the eastern Bundesländer.

Pegida and right-wing factions have a lot more backers in those areas.

Rostock was the scene of the worst violence against immigrants since the wall came down and Ultras from Chemnitz and Dresden are suspected of being behind the 'Sieg Heil' chants at a football game in Prague not so long ago.

However, I think that Germany has been much more successful at addressing the shameful parts of it's past than a lot of other countries (e.g. UK and USA).

In East Germany the problem wasn't addressed after the war in the same way it was in the west. They exchanged one totalitarian regime for another and only really just changed flags. The party line was that all the Nazis were in the capitalist west and any involvement of the good communist citizens was whitewashed over.

[G B Young]

Washington Redskins must be next up...

They'd just need to shorten their name to Washington Reds if they follow those token examples. That's probably what a lot of folk call them anyway.

[Mon Dieu4]

Washington Redskins must be next up...

There has been a campaign to make them change that going on forever, don't know what would need to happen for them to do it, can see the point in that being changed

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder if Muslims will even need to reexamine their relationship with Muhammad, considering his links with slavery?

How far should this be taken?

[Mon Dieu4]

I wonder if Muslims will even need to reexamine their relationship with Muhammad, considering his links with slavery?

How far should this be taken?

They seem to be cool with him marrying kids so I'm sure it will be fine, same way Christians seem fine about Mary being about 14 when she had Jesus

[Colr]

On the subject of honouring people, this turned up in the discussion on Oliver Cromwell.

This disgusting individual is @lucyfrazermp


‪ https://twitter.com/Yogi_theTim/status/1270134873664237571/video/1‬

[Antifa Hibs]

Churchill statue and Cenotaph been boarded up for the weekend.
BLM organisers have called off their protest but others still going out anyway.
If the numbers are correct there will be easily hundreds possibly thousands of right wing nutters about. Been buses advertised leaving Swansea and Carlisle and other towns all over England from what i've seen on facebook/twitter etc.
Some veterans spokesperson released a good statement saying not to get involved with the far-right as you (veterans) are simply being used.

[Berwickhibby]

Churchill statue and Cenotaph been boarded up for the weekend.
BLM organisers have called off their protest but others still going out anyway.
If the numbers are correct there will be easily hundreds possibly thousands of right wing nutters about. Been buses advertised leaving Swansea and Carlisle and other towns all over England from what i've seen on facebook/twitter etc.
Some veterans spokesperson released a good statement saying not to get involved with the far-right as you (veterans) are simply being used.

The 2 Scottish ex forces groups I belong to have cancelled their trip to London after assurances that the cenotaph would be physically protected by scaffolding and boards. The right wing like EDL and sc um of that ilk have nothing to do with ex military.

[Keith_M]

The 2 Scottish ex forces groups I belong to have cancelled their trip to London after assurances that the cenotaph would be physically protected by scaffolding and boards. The right wing like EDL and sc um of that ilk have nothing to do with ex military.


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/26/article-2477639-1901F87800000578-563_634x370.jpg

[Berwickhibby]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/26/article-2477639-1901F87800000578-563_634x370.jpg

I personally doubt that is real

[Keith_M]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/afdibrox1.jpg

[Keith_M]

I personally doubt that is real


"In an image which will cause widespread outrage, two serving British soldiers appear to give Nazi-style salutes while standing to attention in front of the Union Flag.

Apparently taken at an Army base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, the photograph will provoke international disgust as Remembrance Day approaches.

Last night the Ministry of Defence told The Mail on Sunday that both soldiers have been investigated by Army chiefs. A spokesman said: ‘The two people doing the salute in the photo have been spoken to. "

From The Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477639/SHAMEFUL-Fury-UK-soldiers-investigated-performing-Nazi-style-salute-Helmand.html)

[Jones28]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/afdibrox1.jpg

A bunch of squaddies taking in a football game is indicative of...what exactly?

[Berwickhibby]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/afdibrox1.jpg

Yeah the Huns give free tickets to serving soldiers as have Hibs....

[Keith_M]

A bunch of squaddies taking in a football game is indicative of...what exactly?


Nothing at all, I'm sure the guy with the Ulster flag really is from Ulster and the one with the orange scarf was merely paying tribute to Dick Advocaat.

Just like the soldier on the pitch at the same game with the 'No Surrender' scarf was merely referring to his role in Afghanistan or Iraq. And the ones singing along to the Sectarian ditties at that match really believed they were 'up to their knees in Afghan blood'

As you say, all perfectly innocent.

[Keith_M]

I personally doubt that is real


"In an image which will cause widespread outrage, two serving British soldiers appear to give Nazi-style salutes while standing to attention in front of the Union Flag.

Apparently taken at an Army base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, the photograph will provoke international disgust as Remembrance Day approaches.

Last night the Ministry of Defence told The Mail on Sunday that both soldiers have been investigated by Army chiefs. A spokesman said: ‘The two people doing the salute in the photo have been spoken to. "

From The Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477639/SHAMEFUL-Fury-UK-soldiers-investigated-performing-Nazi-style-salute-Helmand.html)



No response?


:dunno:

[Berwickhibby]

No response?


:dunno:

No...like any large organisation there are bound to be fu ckwits...I cannot defend that ...I would not try...but if you dig the internet I sure we can find disgusting images on almost any subject or group.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/afdibrox1.jpg

veering o/t - Huns with "Diamond Jubilee" scarves.

:faf:

:lolrangers:

[Future17]

The right wing like EDL and sc um of that ilk have nothing to do with ex military.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52966077

FWIW, I know many ex-service personnel who are not racist, but they acknowledge there is a problem link which exists.

[Kato]

No...like any large organisation there are bound to be fu ckwits...I cannot defend that ...I would not try...but if you dig the internet I sure we can find disgusting images on almost any subject or group.If that's true why deny its veracity from the off?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

If that's true why deny its veracity from the off?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Because in my experience whilst serving, I have never seen or imagine any of my former comrades behaving in such a disgusting manner. Time for me to permanently leave The Holy Ground as this does not appear like debate, feels like I constantly being attacked regardless what I post.

[The Modfather]

They'd just need to shorten their name to Washington Reds if they follow those token examples. That's probably what a lot of folk call them anyway.

They’ll need to change the Washington part as well, George Washington was a slave owner. Which also begs the question, will Washington DC now be renamed?