Renaming streets

[Tomsk]

Not sure. Definitely not involving standing up in front of a hostile crowd getting pelters kind of angle :greengrin

People like doing things the way they always have, and don’t like being told what to do, which is understandable. It’s best to appeal to self interest.

That's definitely true of the SERYFA. :greengrin

To be fair, I think as volunteers they do a brilliant job administering boys club football competitions in the SE, organising matches and overseeing the disciplinary side of the game. AA especially deserves a lot of respect. He schedules all the games across all the age groups, juggling refs, call-offs, all sorts of requests, and does it all without dropping a plate (well, not many :wink:) - no mean feat. The SERYFA is not exactly visionary and trend-setting, but then is that what people want them to be? :dunno:

I'm also not sure what more they can do about diversity. Boys club football is inclusive, plenty of BAME laddies play. But there is certainly a drop in their participation around about u15s. I don't know why. But would be worth researching, as there are very few BAME coaches and volunteers, refs etc in these adult roles. Sounds like one for the SFA rather than SERYFA or even SYFA though.

[G B Young]

It's about the state's repression of an ethnic minority. Selassie is a symbol of the Ethiopian state.

I'm guessing he represents different things to different people then. I'm sure one of Marley's best-known protest songs 'War' is almost word for word taken from a Selassie speech denouncing racism and oppression.

I'd look into this further but I can't actually be bothered posting much on here at present due to the number of adverts I have to negotiate! Also, is anyone else having to log in twice to get on to the Holy Ground?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm guessing he represents different things to different people then. I'm sure one of Marley's best-known protest songs 'War' is almost word for word taken from a Selassie speech denouncing racism and oppression.

I'd look into this further but I can't actually be bothered posting much on here at present due to the number of adverts I have to negotiate! Also, is anyone else having to log in twice to get on to the Holy Ground?

Only you.

It's a border control :na na::greengrin

[Kato]

I'm guessing he represents different things to different people then. I'm sure one of Marley's best-known protest songs 'War' is almost word for word taken from a Selassie speech denouncing racism and oppression.

I'd look into this further but I can't actually be bothered posting much on here at present due to the number of adverts I have to negotiate! Also, is anyone else having to log in twice to get on to the Holy Ground?

Only you.

It's a border control :na na::greengrinIts Nicola shamelessly politicising off topic sections of football forum log-ins again.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[G B Young]

I'm guessing he represents different things to different people then. I'm sure one of Marley's best-known protest songs 'War' is almost word for word taken from a Selassie speech denouncing racism and oppression.

I'd look into this further but I can't actually be bothered posting much on here at present due to the number of adverts I have to negotiate! Also, is anyone else having to log in twice to get on to the Holy Ground?

Only you.

It's a border control :na na::greengrin

:greengrin

Whatever it is, it's a time-consuming pain, along with regularly having to close adverts. With the school holidays upon us I'll probably take a breather from the forums for a while in the hope that it returns to its more streamlined self.

[Kato]

The BBC's favourite Tory Historian weighs in.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/david-starkey-sparks-fury-saying-22290438.amp

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Does this mean he won’t be on BBC Question Time four times a year anymore? https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/jul/02/david-starkey-widely-criticised-for-saying-slavery-was-not-genocide

whoops, missed similar post above.

[Kato]

Does this mean he won’t be on BBC Question Time four times a year anymore? https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/jul/02/david-starkey-widely-criticised-for-saying-slavery-was-not-genocide

whoops, missed similar post above.

You have to wonder what deep-seated inadequacies this guy has, to cling so badly onto his idea of Engishness.

His cousin, Ringo hasn't covered himself in glory recently either.

[JimBHibees]

That's definitely true of the SERYFA. :greengrin

To be fair, I think as volunteers they do a brilliant job administering boys club football competitions in the SE, organising matches and overseeing the disciplinary side of the game. AA especially deserves a lot of respect. He schedules all the games across all the age groups, juggling refs, call-offs, all sorts of requests, and does it all without dropping a plate (well, not many :wink:) - no mean feat. The SERYFA is not exactly visionary and trend-setting, but then is that what people want them to be? :dunno:

I'm also not sure what more they can do about diversity. Boys club football is inclusive, plenty of BAME laddies play. But there is certainly a drop in their participation around about u15s. I don't know why. But would be worth researching, as there are very few BAME coaches and volunteers, refs etc in these adult roles. Sounds like one for the SFA rather than SERYFA or even SYFA though.

Listened to sportsound a few Saturdays back and the SFA guy David Mcardle on it was very good and explained the work they were doing. Obviously the proof is in the pudding so to speak but Paul Elliott who has been involved in this sort of work in England was on at the same time and he appeared to be very impressed with what SFA were doing. Here is a link and contact for David also.

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish-fa/organisation/diversity-inclusion/

[Hibrandenburg]

I read that this morning and although there's nothing that clearly states he was left out due to the colour of skin, I can believe that was almost certainly the case.

Regardless of any differing viewpoints we have all expressed on this thread, I'm sure everyone here will be in agreement that not picking someone to play for their country because of the colour of their skin was, and still is, completely and utterly wrong.

"He was set to become the first black player to represent England but was denied the opportunity when selectors were told he was a black man."

I think the report makes it pretty clear why he was deselected. Unthinkable in the world of football today, but I'm sure it still happens on a daily basis in other lines of employment.

[hibsbollah]

That's definitely true of the SERYFA. :greengrin

To be fair, I think as volunteers they do a brilliant job administering boys club football competitions in the SE, organising matches and overseeing the disciplinary side of the game. AA especially deserves a lot of respect. He schedules all the games across all the age groups, juggling refs, call-offs, all sorts of requests, and does it all without dropping a plate (well, not many :wink:) - no mean feat. The SERYFA is not exactly visionary and trend-setting, but then is that what people want them to be? :dunno:

I'm also not sure what more they can do about diversity. Boys club football is inclusive, plenty of BAME laddies play. But there is certainly a drop in their participation around about u15s. I don't know why. But would be worth researching, as there are very few BAME coaches and volunteers, refs etc in these adult roles. Sounds like one for the SFA rather than SERYFA or even SYFA though.

I agree with you that individual deserves massive respect for the work he does. It’s not really about individuals. It’s just about looking around a room with all the great volunteers for kids football and thinking, why are we not representative of our communities :dunno:

[Sir David Gray]

"He was set to become the first black player to represent England but was denied the opportunity when selectors were told he was a black man."

I think the report makes it pretty clear why he was deselected. Unthinkable in the world of football today, but I'm sure it still happens on a daily basis in other lines of employment.

I took that line to be an assumption, almost certainly a correct assumption but an assumption nonetheless.

Which is pretty much backed up in an article in The Guardian which quotes Leslie himself;

“All of a sudden, everyone stopped talking about it,” Leslie remembered. “I did hear that the FA had come to have another look at me. Not at me football, but at me face. They asked, and found they’d made a ricket. Found out about me daddy, and that was it. No one ever told me officially, but that had to be the reason.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/01/statue-campaign-for-jack-leslie-black-footballer-denied-england-cap-in-1920s-plymouth

[Tomsk]

I agree with you that individual deserves massive respect for the work he does. It’s not really about individuals. It’s just about looking around a room with all the great volunteers for kids football and thinking, why are we not representative of our communities :dunno:

I wonder if it's any better in other activity-based sports and recreations - hockey, rugby, athletics.

If our experience growing up was that everyone in football in a position of authority or decision-making was white then we shouldn't be surprised when BAME people get overlooked when it comes to getting the decision-making jobs, especially when the appointments are in the gift of a self-perpetuating white group. The wider implications behind this situation are stark as they underpin attitudes and assumptions across society.

Grassroots football can help break the cycle. It has done a lot to promote and foster diversity and inclusion. But as you say where are the BAME coaches and officials, the refs? I've just finished up coaching boys club, and in 15 years I can recall meeting only one BAME coach in the game.

[Keith_M]

I think the lack of representation of non-white footballers in Scotland (larger professional sides excluded) can largely be attributed to the low numbers of non-white people that actually live in Scotland.

THESE (https://www.statista.com/statistics/367842/scotland-ethnicity-of-population/) are the most recent figures I could find, for 2018.


White: 96%
Asian, Asian Scottish or Asian British: 2.6%
African: 0.5%
Carribean or Black: 0.1%
Mixed Ethnicity: 0.3%
Other: 0.4%

The largest ethnic minority is (unsurprisingly) Asian.

There are a large number of Asian people in the Govanhill/Queens Park area of Glasgow (mostly of Indian or Pakistani origin). I go a walk most days through Queens Park and there is nearly always young Asian lads playing cricket.

I've also worked with a large number of Indians (both here and in Germany) and found little enthusiasm for Football as a topic of conversation. In my current work, there's actually two guys (one from India and one from Pakistan) that get on really well... until they start taking about Cricket ;-)

I realise personal experience is hardly scientific but it does seem to be quite common.

[Keith_M]

^
^
^
I just thought I should clarify that my comment above is purely related to Scotland (and in relation to players, not coaches).

Considering how many successful Black players there are in football (and sport in general), it really is quite strange how under-represented they are when it comes to coaching/management.

[hibsbollah]

I think the lack of representation of non-white footballers in Scotland (larger professional sides excluded) can largely be attributed to the low numbers of non-white people that actually live in Scotland.

THESE (https://www.statista.com/statistics/367842/scotland-ethnicity-of-population/) are the most recent figures I could find, for 2018.


White: 96%
Asian, Asian Scottish or Asian British: 2.6%
African: 0.5%
Carribean or Black: 0.1%
Mixed Ethnicity: 0.3%
Other: 0.4%

The largest ethnic minority is (unsurprisingly) Asian.

There are a large number of Asian people in the Govanhill/Queens Park area of Glasgow (mostly of Indian or Pakistani origin). I go a walk most days through Queens Park and there is nearly always young Asian lads playing cricket.

I've also worked with a large number of Indians (both here and in Germany) and found little enthusiasm for Football as a topic of conversation. In my current work, there's actually two guys (one from India and one from Pakistan) that get on really well... until they start taking about Cricket ;-)

I realise personal experience is hardly scientific but it does seem to be quite common.


Those census figures are correct. If you include other minorities like Poles it’s 8% in Scotland . Again, from personal experience my sons team has 4 or 5 BEM kids out of a squad of 16, and his previous teams and opposition teams always have one or two. If it’s more than the average population maybe that’s because of younger age dynamic or more BEM role models in sport these days? Anyway, theres an obvious difference between diversity on the pitch and representation on the sideline.

[Bristolhibby]

Brilliant! The new statue in Bristol.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/edward-colston-statue-replaced-by-sculpture-of-black-lives-matter-protester?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

J

[lapsedhibee]

Brilliant! The new statue in Bristol.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/edward-colston-statue-replaced-by-sculpture-of-black-lives-matter-protester?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

J

Race now to see who removes it first, council or mask deniers ...

[Bristolhibby]

Race now to see who removes it first, council or mask deniers ...

Might pop over to Bristol this evening and take a look.

J

[Future17]

Race now to see who removes it first, council or mask deniers ...

I'd imagine the mask deniers would be quite happy with the portrayal.

[Bristolhibby]

Brilliant! The new statue in Bristol.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/edward-colston-statue-replaced-by-sculpture-of-black-lives-matter-protester?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

J

Just seen it is actually a statue of the Aunty of the Bath Rugby player Miles Reid.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCqn3I_Fy47/?igshid=114xwyxjrvvoa

How cool!

J

[lapsedhibee]

Might pop over to Bristol this evening and take a look.


Just in time, if you did.

[G B Young]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/dam-busters-dogs-gravestone-altered-by-raf

Dam Busters dog's name erased.

Not seen it for many years but I remember enjoying the movie as a kid. I note from the story that the dog's real name is now edited out of the film, but that must have been relatively recent as I definitely remember thinking it would have been a very controversial name to give a dog in the present day.

Talking of dogs' names I remember a couple of families who lived in our neighbourhood in the 1970s who had black dogs. One was called Sooty and the other Darkie. The latter, clearly, could land you in bother but could the former be deemed 'racist'?

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/dam-busters-dogs-gravestone-altered-by-raf

Dam Busters dog's name erased.

Not seen it for many years but I remember enjoying the movie as a kid. I note from the story that the dog's real name is now edited out of the film, but that must have been relatively recent as I definitely remember thinking it would have been a very controversial name to give a dog in the present day.

Talking of dogs' names I remember a couple of families who lived in our neighbourhood in the 1970s who had black dogs. One was called Sooty and the other Darkie. The latter, clearly, could land you in bother but could the former be deemed 'racist'?

Now I’m an ally to the BLM cause, but the Dambuster dogs name was an historical accuracy. How is erasing that helping?

The film doesn’t put the dog up as a statue venerating his achievements. It was just the dogs name.

J

[G B Young]

Now I’m an ally to the BLM cause, but the Dambuster dogs name was an historical accuracy. How is erasing that helping?

The film doesn’t put the dog up as a statue venerating his achievements. It was just the dogs name.

J

Indeed. We're not comfortable that historical fact today therefore we'll change it to something we're more comfortable with. As you say, how does that help?

A lot of sense spoken here IMHO re how learning from and living with the mistakes of the past is something which can be undermined by cancel culture:

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/21/january/the-problem-with-cancel-culture

[hibsbollah]

Indeed. We're not comfortable that historical fact today therefore we'll change it to something we're more comfortable with. As you say, how does that help?

A lot of sense spoken here IMHO re how learning from and living with the mistakes of the past is something which can be undermined by cancel culture:

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/21/january/the-problem-with-cancel-culture

‘Cancel Culture’ is a meaningless expression, conjured up linguistics, designed to defend a broad range of things that cause other people offence. Its application is deliberately wide so as to shut down debate, just like ‘snowflake’. Ironically shutting down debate is the exact thing that those using the phrase are complaining about! It’s bound to catch on of course.

[G B Young]

Now I’m an ally to the BLM cause, but the Dambuster dogs name was an historical accuracy. How is erasing that helping?

The film doesn’t put the dog up as a statue venerating his achievements. It was just the dogs name.

J

Petition now launched to restore the original memorial plaque:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53446494

[Kato]

I never understood the relevance of the dog's appearance in the Dambuster's story. What was Wellington's dog called, or Nelson's?

It was just a dug.

As someone said above though it's a fact of history, that's what the dog was called and it reflects the time and the owners "taste". You can't and shouldn't attempt to airbrush that. Reflecting the times and upon them, and show things have changed.

[G B Young]

I never understood the relevance of the dog's appearance in the Dambuster's story. What was Wellington's dog called, or Nelson's?

It was just a dug.

As someone said above though it's a fact of history, that's what the dog was called and it reflects the time and the owners "taste". You can't and shouldn't attempt to airbrush that. Reflecting the times and upon them, and show things have changed.

The dog was apparently the squadron mascot, but more significantly from the Dambusters' story was that his name was used as the code word to confirm that the dam had been breached. As I said, it's been years since I watched the old black and white film, but I'm guessing the name must have been used quite a lot in the script. Wonder if they just bleep it out when it gets shown now.

[Bristolhibby]

The dog was apparently the squadron mascot, but more significantly from the Dambusters' story was that his name was used as the code word to confirm that the dam had been breached. As I said, it's been years since I watched the old black and white film, but I'm guessing the name must have been used quite a lot in the script. Wonder if they just bleep it out when it gets shown now.

Code word (and dugs name) is Trigger now.

J

[Kato]

The dog was apparently the squadron mascot, but more significantly from the Dambusters' story was that his name was used as the code word to confirm that the dam had been breached. As I said, it's been years since I watched the old black and white film, but I'm guessing the name must have been used quite a lot in the script. Wonder if they just bleep it out when it gets shown now.

Makes sense.

[lapsedhibee]

Code word (and dugs name) is Trigger now.


Since it's a war film, wouldn't Roy Rogers's dug's name (Bullet) have been more apt than his horse's? :dunno:

[Keith_M]

A bunch of white guys arguing about the name of a dog in a film is kind of irrelevant.

I'd rather leave it to the people that it could potentially offend to give their views on the matter and leave it to the film makers to make a decision based on the feedback they receive.


The only opinion I genuinely have in this is that it's maybe about time they realised we're not at war with the Germans any more, but that's a different matter.

[wpj]

Irrelevant to the thread but when I worked in Germany my colleague took me to the lake where the dambusters bombed, he also sang the theme tune. He took me to Bergan Belson, he stayed in the truck while I went in. He was a top guy but he had a sense of history. He was maybe 50 in the mid 90s. We had a few adventures on the road (removal men mostly for the military) a bunch of the best people i ever knew

[G B Young]

Code word (and dugs name) is Trigger now.

J

Cheers. Assuming that gets dubbed over the original dialogue?

Just reading that Peter Jackson and Steven Fry are collaborating on a remake in which the dog's name will be changed to Digger. All getting a bit daft.

[Bristolhibby]

Cheers. Assuming that gets dubbed over the original dialogue?

Just reading that Peter Jackson and Steven Fry are collaborating on a remake in which the dog's name will be changed to Digger. All getting a bit daft.

The Peter Jackson tuner has been around for about 15 years. Would be great if he pulls it off. Much of the Bomber crews were Kiwis.

J

[Saturday Boy]

The Peter Jackson tuner has been around for about 15 years. Would be great if he pulls it off. Much of the Bomber crews were Kiwis.

J

I have a strange mental picture of small flightless birds hanging out the cockpit of a Lancaster , shouting abuse at some walking emus.

[Bristolhibby]

I have a strange mental picture of small flightless birds hanging out the cockpit of a Lancaster , shouting abuse at some walking emus.

With goggles on and a silk scarf billowing in the slipstream.

J

[Keith_M]

I have a strange mental picture of small flightless birds hanging out the cockpit of a Lancaster , shouting abuse at some walking emus.


I'd pay to watch that film.

:greengrin

[G B Young]

The Peter Jackson tuner has been around for about 15 years. Would be great if he pulls it off. Much of the Bomber crews were Kiwis.

J

Jackson had 10 replica Lancaster bombers made for the movie a few years back:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/the-dam-busters-will-peter-jacksons-remake-of-the-iconic-film-ever-get-off-the-ground-10440966.html

As for the dog's gravestone, the petition to have him given his name back is rattling along towards their 25,000 signature target:

https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/07/petition-uproar-over-dogs-gravestone-at-raf-scampton/

Emotions always seem to be heightened among the British public when there's an animal, particularly a dog, involved in a story.

[G B Young]

Interesting feature on the Igbo slave traders:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752

[heretoday]

The Peter Jackson tuner has been around for about 15 years. Would be great if he pulls it off. Much of the Bomber crews were Kiwis.

J

I thought Kiwis couldn't fly?

[Keith_M]

I thought Kiwis couldn't fly?


I think I've lost track of the point of this thread.


Are we going to be renaming streets after Kiwis?


:dunno:

[Bristolhibby]

I think I've lost track of the point of this thread.


Are we going to be renaming streets after Kiwis?


:dunno:

No, German dams.

Möhne street
Eder Road
&
Sorpe Close

J

[beensaidbefore]

Interesting feature on the Igbo slave traders:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752



Interesting reading. Surprised by the attitudes once we tried to force them to stop. Highlights that this is not simply a black v white issue as some would have us believe. She makes a interesting point that she shouldn't be judged by the actions of her grandfather, and neither should he be judged by modern standards as it was perfectly acceptable in their culture back then.

Surprised this hasn't been commented on before now.

[G B Young]

Interesting reading. Surprised by the attitudes once we tried to force them to stop. Highlights that this is not simply a black v white issue as some would have us believe. She makes a interesting point that she shouldn't be judged by the actions of her grandfather, and neither should he be judged by modern standards as it was perfectly acceptable in their culture back then.

Surprised this hasn't been commented on before now.

As she says it's often overlooked that slavery was 'ingrained in African culture' long before the Europeans arrived.

[hibsbollah]

As she says it's often overlooked that slavery was 'ingrained in African culture' long before the Europeans arrived.

Slavery has been around as long as we’ve had organised human existence. In Africa and the Middle East before the British Empire was a thing.

This is not a fact this is ‘often overlooked’. It’s a fact that is repeated a lot, usually from people trying to ‘contextualise’/be an apologist for the North Atlantic Slave Trade and Britain’s key role in driving it.

It largely irrelevant to the racial superiority than underpinned the North Atlantic Slave Trade, which took the practice to an industrial level, driving the industrial revolution and the world economy for the last 400 years. It was allowed to happen for so long because it was broadly accepted that ‘the negro’ was subhuman.

[hibsbollah]

That's definitely true of the SERYFA. :greengrin

To be fair, I think as volunteers they do a brilliant job administering boys club football competitions in the SE, organising matches and overseeing the disciplinary side of the game. AA especially deserves a lot of respect. He schedules all the games across all the age groups, juggling refs, call-offs, all sorts of requests, and does it all without dropping a plate (well, not many :wink:) - no mean feat. The SERYFA is not exactly visionary and trend-setting, but then is that what people want them to be? :dunno:

I'm also not sure what more they can do about diversity. Boys club football is inclusive, plenty of BAME laddies play. But there is certainly a drop in their participation around about u15s. I don't know why. But would be worth researching, as there are very few BAME coaches and volunteers, refs etc in these adult roles. Sounds like one for the SFA rather than SERYFA or even SYFA though.

Kevin Harper very good on this subject here;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08lm67q

[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200724/90735a2042b7695392e5452794933eff.jpg

An example of how not removing something from the collective memory allows it to be remembered


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CapitalGreen]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200724/90735a2042b7695392e5452794933eff.jpg

An example of how not removing something from the collective memory allows it to be remembered


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t think anyone has suggested demolishing buildings have they?. In regards to the Olympiastadion, numerous items of Nazi symbology were removed and the bell tower which had been used as an archive by the Third Reich was destroyed by the British in 1947 before being rebuilt. The removal of these symbols have not prevented the history of the Berlin olympics and Nazism from being remembered.

[Tomsk]

Kevin Harper very good on this subject here;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08lm67q

That was depressing listening to Kevin's story. I remember watching this very exciting young footballer to all appearances playing with no fear and with a smile on his face. Little did I know that he was having to deal with abuse and racism from fans and fellow professionals. Gary McKay does not come out of that podcast shining in glory.

At the same time I was really taken by Kevin's can-do attitude. He's got fire in his belly and wants to make a difference. He also speaks very well. Surely there's a place for someone like that in our game.

[hibsbollah]

That was depressing listening to Kevin's story. I remember watching this very exciting young footballer to all appearances playing with no fear and with a smile on his face. Little did I know that he was having to deal with abuse and racism from fans and fellow professionals. Gary McKay does not come out of that podcast shining in glory.

At the same time I was really taken by Kevin's can-do attitude. He's got fire in his belly and wants to make a difference. He also speaks very well. Surely there's a place for someone like that in our game.

Yeah, he came across as a very intelligent strong minded individual.

[Bristolhibby]

Certainly amongst my friends and acquaintances it ranges from disgust (me) to ambivalence. Ie can’t be arsed either way.

There’s no two ways, Bristol was built on the blood and lives of slaves. The City is there because of this.

Having statues to the these people is not on. The Council has dragged its feet. No real drive to actually address the issue. It was discussed when I started university in Bristol back in 2001. 20 years later it was still there.

Guess the decisions been made now.

It would be terrible if they put it back up.

J

Try he Colston 4 found not guilty by a jury of their peers.

Well done Bristol! And what a refreshing legal argument.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/05/four-cleared-of-toppling-edward-colston-statute

In a 10-day trial at Bristol crown court, the four defendants did not contest their actions on 7 June 2020 but sought to argue they were justified, because the statue was so offensive.

Giving evidence in their own defence, each described being motivated out of sincere antiracist conviction, frustration that previous attempts to persuade the council to remove the statue had failed, and a belief that the statue was so offensive it constituted an indecent display or a hate crime.

Liam Walker QC, representing Willoughby, said: “Each of these defendants were on the right side of history, and I submit, they were also on the right side of the law.

“Colston’s deeds may be historical but the continued veneration of him in this city was not. The continued veneration of him in a vibrant multicultural city was an act of abuse.”

Willoughby, who climbed the statue, told the court he targeted Colston “because he was a racist and a slave trader who murdered thousands and enslaved even more””

J

[He's here!]

Edinburgh says sorry for city's role in slavery and colonialism - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-63411793)

Acknowledging that the 'landscape of the city' was shaped by the wealth generated by slavery is all very well, but what does such an 'apology' achieve?

[Sergio sledge]

Edinburgh says sorry for city's role in slavery and colonialism - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-63411793)

Acknowledging that the 'landscape of the city' was shaped by the wealth generated by slavery is all very well, but what does such an 'apology' achieve?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62724230

"Prof Palmer said the council's decision to accept its recommendations was "very significant" and a civic apology was an important step.

"An apology doesn't buy bread but it gives another form of sustenance," he said. " It is about feeling that somebody has looked at something and recognised it was wrong. They are saying to you, the person offended, that they regret what has happened."

[wookie70]

Edinburgh says sorry for city's role in slavery and colonialism - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-63411793)

Acknowledging that the 'landscape of the city' was shaped by the wealth generated by slavery is all very well, but what does such an 'apology' achieve?

What does any apology achieve. The apology isn't the only act though.