Drug deaths in Scotland highest in EU

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/stevetransform/status/1448238722906984457?s=21

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211013/95af6b801d34e74d59f80d8a8c63bf24.jpg

The public are way ahead of the politicians on this. A smart party would be looking at making the switch now.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Pragmatism from the Church.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59037524

[JeMeSouviens]

Pragmatism from the Church.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59037524

Surely the Rev Greenshields should be trying to stamp it out. :greengrin


(one for our older listeners there)

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely the Rev Greenshields should be trying to stamp it out. :greengrin


(one for our older listeners there)

It would be a token gesture.

[Moulin Yarns]

It would be a token gesture.

I'm wondering if you get vouchers for lunch 🤔

[CropleyWasGod]

BBC News - Drugs helpline aimed at user safety to be launched
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59303204

[CyberSauzee]

Not sure if this has been posted on this thread before but a worthwhile read if you've not seen it:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic

[beensaidbefore]

Not sure if this has been posted on this thread before but a worthwhile read if you've not seen it:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic

Great read. Never even heard of the British System

[wookie70]

Not sure if this has been posted on this thread before but a worthwhile read if you've not seen it:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic

Fascinating read. Thanks

[Callyballybe]

Not sure if this has been posted on this thread before but a worthwhile read if you've not seen it:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw4nnk/how-the-us-stopped-a-possible-solution-to-the-heroin-epidemic

Thanks for posting. Like most I hadn't heard of the previous 'British System'. Incredible that his has been forgotten about.

[Stairway 2 7]

Good move

Germany's new coalition government plans to legalise cannabis to drive out the illicit market and raise €1bn in tax.

They will also set up drug-testing services where people can test if their drugs are cut with dangerous substances

[CropleyWasGod]

Good move

Germany's new coalition government plans to legalise cannabis to drive out the illicit market and raise €1bn in tax.

They will also set up drug-testing services where people can test if their drugs are cut with dangerous substances

The Netherlands had that testing service for years, particularly for pills. Not sure if they still do.

That's one of the reasons why the UK had such a casualty rate with MDMA. The cut ones were punted here.

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/AConstanceSNP/status/1466407613676105730

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16941848/boris-johnson-drugs-crackdown-war/

Fat prick boris playing to the grandstands and the daily mail. Going with Ronald Reagans failed war on drugs policy, when the rest of the world is going with decriminalisation

[Stairway 2 7]

Just literally seen this after I posted the previous article. Wonder if he'll crack down hard on them.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e93606ce-5527-11ec-9b65-68b0858e7bd3?shareToken=4614b5c3bac15ba6d4a1320103 2c08b1

Sniffer dogs could prowl corridors of power amid claims drug abuse is rife
Speaker vows to crack down as fears grow that cannabis and cocaine is being used openly at Westminster

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16941848/boris-johnson-drugs-crackdown-war/

Fat prick boris playing to the grandstands and the daily mail. Going with Ronald Reagans failed war on drugs policy, when the rest of the world is going with decriminalisation

This is such an obvious area for more devolution and should really see the Labour Party campaigning for it if they were still a party that believed in devolution.


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[He's here!]

Heads of Scotland's drugs deaths taskforce resign:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-59830333

[heretoday]

Legalise cannabis and double the price of booze.
There's more harm caused in this country by drink than anything else.

[Paul1642]

I recently read an analysis somewhere explaining that our stats are so bad because of the way we record them, not because they are actually the worst in Europe (a bit like covid but that’s for another thread).

Basically any sign of recent drug use gets recorded as a drugs death, for example a user of Xanax / heroin suffer from a heart attack and it goes down as a drugs death, where as most other countries only record confirmed overdoses as drugs deaths.

I would suggest that we should record the way that we do as no doubt the drug use contributed to the heart attack in the above example, however maybe we shouldn’t compare ourselves to other nations so harshly when they don’t record data the same way that we do.

[Paul1642]

Legalise cannabis and double the price of booze.
There's more harm caused in this country by drink than anything else.

Perhaps physically. Cannabis is a shocker for the old mental heath though. Probably not a coincidence that the mental health epidemic we are currently entering has coincided with cannabis increasing is strength at a scary rate compared to what was around a few decades ago.

Maybe that should be the argument for legalisation, as we could sell a product that hasn’t been genetically modified / selectively bred to be so strong.

[James310]

I recently read an analysis somewhere explaining that our stats are so bad because of the way we record them, not because they are actually the worst in Europe (a bit like covid but that’s for another thread).

Basically any sign of recent drug use gets recorded as a drugs death, for example a user of Xanax / heroin suffer from a heart attack and it goes down as a drugs death, where as most other countries only record confirmed overdoses as drugs deaths.

I would suggest that we should record the way that we do as no doubt the drug use contributed to the heart attack in the above example, however maybe we shouldn’t compare ourselves to other nations so harshly when they don’t record data the same way that we do.

That's just a myth I am afraid.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scots-drug-deaths-not-comparable-uk-europe/

[Paul1642]

That's just a myth I am afraid.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scots-drug-deaths-not-comparable-uk-europe/

Having read the article it doesn’t really prove it to be a myth from what I can see. It only compares our recording methods against the rest of the UK who clearly use similar methods and fortunately have quite the same issues with Heroin and Xanax. It does not mention the rest of Europe of the world.

It also then mentions the heart attack point that I used as an example and also a car crash examples however then only goes on to state that car crashes are not counted unless the drug was a factor. It does not mention medical deaths.

To be honest anyone with a bit of common sense can see that something is not quite right when Scotland has 295 drug deaths per million when the likes of Romania, Bulgaria and Portugal have single single figures. Does anyone really believe that these counties have 1% - 2% of the drug deaths that we do?

Note that Sweden in second place is a great country with a good welfare system, and that all the counties with the top death rates are generally the European countries with the highest standard of living and lowest poverty.

I’m confident it’s the recording.

Ps - this isn’t political for me as the article suggest it’s a pro independence narrative.

[James310]

Having read the article it doesn’t really prove it to be a myth from what I can see. It only compares our recording methods against the rest of the UK who clearly use similar methods and fortunately have quite the same issues with Heroin and Xanax. It does not mention the rest of Europe of the world.

It also then mentions the heart attack point that I used as an example and also a car crash examples however then only goes on to state that car crashes are not counted unless the drug was a factor. It does not mention medical deaths.

To be honest anyone with a bit of common sense can see that something is not quite right when Scotland has 295 drug deaths per million when the likes of Romania, Bulgaria and Portugal have single single figures. Does anyone really believe that these counties have 1% - 2% of the drug deaths that we do?

Note that Sweden in second place is a great country with a good welfare system, and that all the counties with the top death rates are generally the European countries with the highest standard of living and lowest poverty.

I’m confident it’s the recording.

Ps - this isn’t political for me as the article suggest it’s a pro independence narrative.

It does reference Europe a number of times.

"The viral claim which has resurfaced in 2020 – that Scotland’s drug-related death statistics are not comparable to the UK or Europe – is incorrect. While there are some differences between the way Scotland, the UK and European countries record such deaths, this does not have a significant impact on the respective rates of drug-related deaths. The official report states that Scotland’s rate is likely higher than most, if not all countries in Europe."

The official report from NRS (a Scottish Government department) also references this. If the method of recording deaths was wrong I am sure the Scottish Government would not be publishing information it believes is wrong, especially over something as high profile as this subject.

"The NRS report says that despite these differences in data collection “it appears certain that Scotland’s rate is well above the level of most (if not all) of the EU countries"

[SChibs]

Legalise cannabis and double the price of booze.
There's more harm caused in this country by drink than anything else.

Legalise all drugs and regulate them. It's relatively hard to overdose on heroin itself, it's when crap is mixed in with it people start dying. Also pump money into helping people get out of poverty and mental health services and drug deaths will plummet. There's evidence out there to suggest a large portion of addiction is caused by a poor mental state and surroundings.

Dr Carl Hart has done tons of research on the subject if anyone us interested

[Kato]

Legalise all drugs and regulate them. It's relatively hard to overdose on heroin itself, it's when crap is mixed in with it people start dying. Also pump money into helping people get out of poverty and mental health services and drug deaths will plummet. There's evidence out there to suggest a large portion of addiction is caused by a poor mental state and surroundings.

Dr Carl Hart has done tons of research on the subject if anyone us interested

These solutions are correct - apply them and drug deaths will go down. They are solutions which have been around for 40 years though, and there is still a reluctance to even discuss them never mind apply them.

[Ozyhibby]

These solutions are correct - apply them and drug deaths will go down. They are solutions which have been around for 40 years though, and there is still a reluctance to even discuss them never mind apply them.

The minute people in power retire they are only too willing to say that we should legalise.


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[Skol]

These solutions are correct - apply them and drug deaths will go down. They are solutions which have been around for 40 years though, and there is still a reluctance to even discuss them never mind apply them.

Whilst I can see some logic in the argument, I do feel uneasy about legalising drugs as a solution.

[SChibs]

Whilst I can see some logic in the argument, I do feel uneasy about legalising drugs as a solution.

How do you feel about alcohol being legal?

[Skol]

How do you feel about alcohol being legal?

I’ve been pondering on that since I posted so a very good question. I guess though it starts from a different point in that it is currently legal and it’s hard to see any way that could make it illegal without massive issues. However alcohol clearly has its own issues and there is a case against it.

If you had asked about tobacco I would have had no hesitation though to make that illegal.

Why the difference ? Probably because I don’t smoke but I do drink alcohol although I would like to do something about the amount of alcohol i consume.

[Since90+2]

Whilst I can see some logic in the argument, I do feel uneasy about legalising drugs as a solution.

I'm not sure if the poster is meaning literally legalise drugs or they mean to decriminalise them, there is a massive difference between the two. Legalising heroin and crack cocaine would not be a particularly smart move IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure if the poster is meaning literally legalise drugs or they mean to decriminalise them, there is a massive difference between the two. Legalising heroin and crack cocaine would not be a particularly smart move IMO.

I would legalise them. Have them available to be administered by a health professional in a safe environment. We need to eradicate the black market in narcotics.


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[Ozyhibby]

I’ve been pondering on that since I posted so a very good question. I guess though it starts from a different point in that it is currently legal and it’s hard to see any way that could make it illegal without massive issues. However alcohol clearly has its own issues and there is a case against it.

If you had asked about tobacco I would have had no hesitation though to make that illegal.

Why the difference ? Probably because I don’t smoke but I do drink alcohol although I would like to do something about the amount of alcohol i consume.

Prohibition is massively counter productive in just about all areas of drug policy. It’s great for gun control though.
Tobacco is a great example of how you can massively reduce consumption without prohibiting it. Education is the key to improving drug outcomes.


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[Skol]

I would legalise them. Have them available to be administered by a health professional in a safe environment. We need to eradicate the black market in narcotics.


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Would that stop the black market entirely ? some people may not fancy getting drugs administered for them in a controlled setting and still look to take drugs in whatever way they currently do.

[Ozyhibby]

Would that stop the black market entirely ? some people may not fancy getting drugs administered for them in a controlled setting and still look to take drugs in whatever way they currently do.

I would think it would reduce it. Where is the incentive for a drug dealer to offer me heroine if the minute I get hooked, I head along to a govt clinic to get it for free and safely? Once I’m a drug addict, I’m not going to want to pay for inferior heroine than the govt can give me for free.


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[SHODAN]

If alcohol weren't inexorably intertwined with Western culture it would be a class A banned substance. The harm it causes to the individual, to family and society is devastating.

Advocating a total ban on drugs but excluding alcohol doesn't make sense.

[Ozyhibby]

If alcohol weren't inexorably intertwined with Western culture it would be a class A banned substance. The harm it causes to the individual, to family and society is devastating.

Advocating a total ban on drugs but excluding alcohol doesn't make sense.

And that would be a dream for gangsters the world over. Prohibition is a terrible idea.


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[Skol]

I would think it would reduce it. Where is the incentive for a drug dealer to offer me heroine if the minute I get hooked, I head along to a govt clinic to get it for free and safely? Once I’m a drug addict, I’m not going to want to pay for inferior heroine than the govt can give me for free.


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ZB

Even less comfortable with drugs being legalised and given out free.

[Ozyhibby]

ZB

Even less comfortable with drugs being legalised and given out free.

It’s a lot cheaper than the current system which costs many billions per annum.


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[SChibs]

ZB

Even less comfortable with drugs being legalised and given out free.

What do you think is going to happen? Everyone is going to go out and become drug addicts? Alcohol is legal and the vast majority of people can enjoy it responsibly. Most of the dangers of drugs come from a lack of knowledge of the substance and substances that are mixed with something else.

[Since90+2]

What do you think is going to happen? Everyone is going to go out and become drug addicts? Alcohol is legal and the vast majority of people can enjoy it responsibly. Most of the dangers of drugs come from a lack of knowledge of the substance and substances that are mixed with something else.

Although I agree with the general point that drug use should be treated as a health issue rather than a criminal one I do think there is a major difference between substances like heroin and alcohol.

Alcohol can be enjoyed responsibly with very little effects if moderated correctly, even spurts of over indulgence won't have a particularly bad outcome for most people as long as it doesn't get out of hand (ie over indulgence over Christmas and New year). The same can't be said of Heroin and crack cocaine which can have extremely profound effects after a very short period of time and lead to addiction very quickly.

The two are very different drugs and should be treated as such.

[vincipernoi]

[QUOTE=SChibs;6804428]Legalise all drugs and regulate them. It's relatively hard to overdose on heroin itself, it's when crap is mixed in with it people start dying. Also pump money into helping people get out of poverty and mental health services and drug deaths will plummet. There's evidence out there to suggest a large portion of addiction is caused by a poor mental state and surroundings.


That's not correct, the purer the heroin the more potentially lethal it is. Most unhabituated people who don't have severe pain would stop breathing on about 20 mg of pharmaceutical heroin.

[SChibs]

[QUOTE=SChibs;6804428]Legalise all drugs and regulate them. It's relatively hard to overdose on heroin itself, it's when crap is mixed in with it people start dying. Also pump money into helping people get out of poverty and mental health services and drug deaths will plummet. There's evidence out there to suggest a large portion of addiction is caused by a poor mental state and surroundings.


That's not correct, the purer the heroin the more potentially lethal it is. Most unhabituated people who don't have severe pain would stop breathing on about 20 mg of pharmaceutical heroin.

Which is why they should be legalised and regulated so people know their drugs are pure.

[SChibs]

Although I agree with the general point that drug use should be treated as a health issue rather than a criminal one I do think there is a major difference between substances like heroin and alcohol.

Alcohol can be enjoyed responsibly with very little effects if moderated correctly, even spurts of over indulgence won't have a particularly bad outcome for most people as long as it doesn't get out of hand (ie over indulgence over Christmas and New year). The same can't be said of Heroin and crack cocaine which can have extremely profound effects after a very short period of time and lead to addiction very quickly.

The two are very different drugs and should be treated as such.

Theres a lot of evidence out there to suggest heroin and crack isn't as addictive as people are led to believe. The circumstances of the individual make more of an impact towards addition than the substance itself.

[Since90+2]

Theres a lot of evidence out there to suggest heroin and crack isn't as addictive as people are led to believe. The circumstances of the individual make more of an impact towards addition than the substance itself.

I just don't agree with the general premise that alcohol should be treated in the exact same way by the state as heroin and crack cocaine. What we have is an extreme position at the moment but doing that would take it to the other end of the spectrum.

A balance can be struck somewhere in the middle IMO.

[vincipernoi]

Theres a lot of evidence out there to suggest heroin and crack isn't as addictive as people are led to believe. The circumstances of the individual make more of an impact towards addition than the substance itself.

You could probably use pharmaceutical heroin with sterile equipment for most of your life without coming to any physical harm, apart from being really constipated

Cocaine in any form is considerably more toxic and single doses can cause death.

[Ozyhibby]

I just don't agree with the general premise that alcohol should be treated in the exact same way by the state as heroin and crack cocaine. What we have is an extreme position at the moment but doing that would take it to the other end of the spectrum.

A balance can be struck somewhere in the middle IMO.

It def should not be treated the same as alcohol. Hard drugs for people addicted should be administered in a clinical setting by healthcare professionals.


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[Jamesie]

I just don't agree with the general premise that alcohol should be treated in the exact same way by the state as heroin and crack cocaine. What we have is an extreme position at the moment but doing that would take it to the other end of the spectrum.

A balance can be struck somewhere in the middle IMO.

Correct: alcohol and tobacco might be legal but that doesn’t stop counterfeiters, bootleggers and smugglers bringing product from abroad and seeking to re-sell in the UK. Anyone thinking drug dealers disappear overnight if supply is state controlled is living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Ozyhibby]

Correct: alcohol and tobacco might be legal but that doesn’t stop counterfeiters, bootleggers and smugglers bringing product from abroad and seeking to re-sell in the UK. Anyone thinking drug dealers disappear overnight if supply is state controlled is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Those smugglers only operate because of the tax on those products. If the state are prescribing heroin for free then where is the incentive to smuggle in heroin?


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[Paul1642]

Those smugglers only operate because of the tax on those products. If the state are prescribing heroin for free then where is the incentive to smuggle in heroin?


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But the point is that some people want all drugs legalised. We dishing out Cannabis, Cocaine and Ecstasy for free while we’re at it?

[Ozyhibby]

But the point is that some people want all drugs legalised. We dishing out Cannabis, Cocaine and Ecstasy for free while we’re at it?

No but you don’t commercialise their sale either. They are sold from state run retail outlets. And the tax raised can be used for proper drug treatment programmes.
There might still be some level of black market but you set the tax at a level that minimises it while still raising income.
It won’t be perfect but what we have right now is so far away from acceptable that it can’t be any worse.


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[LunasBoots]

Big problem in Renfrewshire just now, I also know of people taking them in Edinburgh and becoming very ill, one of the issues appears to be GPs in this country reluctance to prescribe certain medication for panic attacks etc so people get more dangerous Street version.

[degenerated]

Scottish police officers to all carry Naloxone nasal sprays after a successful trial was carried out. That's got to be a positive move and will hopefully help save some lives.

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scotland-give-police-life-saving-drug-overdose-spray-naloxone-world-first-1467133

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61416295?at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=%40BBCPolitics&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=twitter&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D

No way will Patel allow this totally sensible idea.


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[silverhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61416295?at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=%40BBCPolitics&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom4=twitter&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D

No way will Patel allow this totally sensible idea.


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Depends on how much her and her cronies make from it, isn’t UK one of the biggest exporters of it in the world.

[CropleyWasGod]

Depends on how much her and her cronies make from it, isn’t UK one of the biggest exporters of it in the world.

It's the biggest exporter of medical cannabis, so they possibly already are :cb

https://leftfootforward.org/2021/04/revealed-uk-is-the-worlds-biggest-producer-of-medical-cannabis-but-brits-cant-access-it/#:~:text=The%20report%20%E2%80%93%20that%20include s%20data,the%20'number%20one'%20spot.

[Stairway 2 7]

Legalisation is a goldmine and that's why the US states are falling like domino's to legalise. I was surprised that manhattan looks like Amsterdam when I went last week, weed shops on every corner.

If little England is against it the tories will be too, if it isn't a vote loser they will soon change.

It's a no brainer to me. Get the money into the exchequer, rather in criminals hands. Stop a Web of police time also

[SChibs]

Legalisation is a goldmine and that's why the US states are falling like domino's to legalise. I was surprised that manhattan looks like Amsterdam when I went last week, weed shops on every corner.

If little England is against it the tories will be too, if it isn't a vote loser they will soon change.

It's a no brainer to me. Get the money into the exchequer, rather in criminals hands. Stop a Web of police time also

I'm yet to see a genuinely strong case against legalising cannibas to be honest. Is it just stubbornness or people being ill informed about the drug?

[Paul1642]

I'm yet to see a genuinely strong case against legalising cannibas to be honest. Is it just stubbornness or people being ill informed about the drug?

Before I get slated I’m not strongly for or against legalisation, however as far as case against it I would argue the following.

The county is in the early stages or a serious mental health epidemic that were already struggling to cope with, especially among younger people (who are also the group most likely to increase consumption if legalised Imo). There are numerous studies that show a clear link between frequent cannabis use and increased risk of a mental health issue, namely anxiety, depression and psychosis among other issues. Legalisation runs the risk of increased consumption of the drug and therefore increase mental heath issues.

The argument that it is a gateway drug is also pretty accurate in my opinion. Growing up I never seen anyone going straight from taking nothing to taking class A drugs. They all started with weed / hash and stepped it up from there. Would legalising the drug at the bottom of the pile risk giving people a more open view to trying more dangerous drugs?

A fear for me personally would be the likely hood of more people driving under the influence of drugs due to being able to smoke weed legally and judgment free in places that they currently cannot. A huge awareness campaign would be needed to stigmatise the hell out of it.

I can also see the flip side of this and could argue that anyone who want to get cannabis can do so without any hardship whatsoever anyway, so at least by legalisation it the strength and strains could be regulated to be less potent and the profit used to help fund more mental health services.

I don’t think there’s as clear cut correct answer as some people do.

[easty]

Before I get slated I’m not strongly for or against legalisation, however as far as case against it I would argue the following.

The county is in the early stages or a serious mental health epidemic that were already struggling to cope with, especially among younger people (who are also the group most likely to increase consumption if legalised Imo). There are numerous studies that show a clear link between frequent cannabis use and increased risk of a mental health issue, namely anxiety, depression and psychosis among other issues. Legalisation runs the risk of increased consumption of the drug and therefore increase mental heath issues.

The argument that it is a gateway drug is also pretty accurate in my opinion. Growing up I never seen anyone going straight from taking nothing to taking class A drugs. They all started with weed / hash and stepped it up from there. Would legalising the drug at the bottom of the pile risk giving people a more open view to trying more dangerous drugs?

A fear for me personally would be the likely hood of more people driving under the influence of drugs due to being able to smoke weed legally and judgment free in places that they currently cannot. A huge awareness campaign would be needed to stigmatise the hell out of it.

I can also see the flip side of this and could argue that anyone who want to get cannabis can do so without any hardship whatsoever anyway, so at least by legalisation it the strength and strains could be regulated to be less potent and the profit used to help fund more mental health services.

I don’t think there’s as clear cut correct answer as some people do.

My youngest has had his mental health massively affected by cannabis. He’s not the sane guy he was 10 years ago. I’ve absolutely no doubt it’s due to smoking. It’s pretty gutting to see.

[Ozyhibby]

Cannabis is not harmless and I don’t think anyone is saying that it is?
The problem with the current situation is that making it illegal encourages suppliers to make it as potent as possible in order to maximise their income. Much the same as prohibition in the US encouraged Americans to move to hard liquor rather than beer. Easier to smuggle etc. Pretty sure that Americans still drink more hard liquor than us due to this.
Cannabis today is a lot stronger than 25 years ago and that would def result in more harms unfortunately. Legalisation could allow less potent strains to be sold legally which would help alleviate the problem.
Cannabis is not harmless but the way things are just now we are not trying to manage the harms.


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[SHODAN]

And that would be a dream for gangsters the world over. Prohibition is a terrible idea.


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So is the current situation.

If alcohol isn't banned then none of them should be.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/mcs/media/images/49735000/gif/_49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif

That people talk about junkies and wasters etc in one breath but can't function during the weekend and/or evenings/social events without consuming alcohol is total hypocrisy.

[Paul1642]

So is the current situation.

If alcohol isn't banned then none of them should be.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/mcs/media/images/49735000/gif/_49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif

That people talk about junkies and wasters etc in one breath but can't function during the weekend and/or evenings/social events without consuming alcohol is total hypocrisy.

A weak argument. Not many people believe that alcohol is harmless but it’s been far to ingrained on society worldwide for thousands of years to ever go away. That goes not mean that we should say F*** it, we already use one harmful substance so let’s legalise the whole lot!

[speedy_gonzales]

So is the current situation.

If alcohol isn't banned then none of them should be.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/mcs/media/images/49735000/gif/_49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif

That people talk about junkies and wasters etc in one breath but can't function during the weekend and/or evenings/social events without consuming alcohol is total hypocrisy.

I'm not sure what the correct adjective is here, but what's the metric for consumption in that table?
I'm not naive, I know the damage alcohol can do to the individual, the family, society as a whole, but you're not telling me one pint of lager is worse for you physically/mentally than one line of coke?
We need to be comparing like for like consumption here for that table to have any weight.
Like the case in point, cannabis. I know hunners of folk that will occasionally, or maybe even frequently (once a week) have a smoke (or maybe even only half a spliff), and they are perfectly functioning members of society.
Then there's my brother. Been smoking since he was 14, copious copious amounts of grass. So much so that after 27 years he's now enjoying a drug induced psychosis. Never worked in 20 years (signed off for life), relies heavily on the state and is currently enjoying another sabbatical at the Royal Edinburgh Building.
There's is no doubt in my mind his extra curricular activities got him to where he is, the question is, what within him made him enjoy them to the n-th degree.
Like I said, the vast majority can enjoy responsibly, but it's the 1% we have to legislate for.

[Ozyhibby]

So is the current situation.

If alcohol isn't banned then none of them should be.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/mcs/media/images/49735000/gif/_49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif

That people talk about junkies and wasters etc in one breath but can't function during the weekend and/or evenings/social events without consuming alcohol is total hypocrisy.

I’m not disagreeing it’s harmful. I just don’t think prohibition is helpful at all. For any drug.


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[SHODAN]

I’m not disagreeing it’s harmful. I just don’t think prohibition is helpful at all. For any drug.


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Absolutely - I agree with you.

[SChibs]

Before I get slated I’m not strongly for or against legalisation, however as far as case against it I would argue the following.

The county is in the early stages or a serious mental health epidemic that were already struggling to cope with, especially among younger people (who are also the group most likely to increase consumption if legalised Imo). There are numerous studies that show a clear link between frequent cannabis use and increased risk of a mental health issue, namely anxiety, depression and psychosis among other issues. Legalisation runs the risk of increased consumption of the drug and therefore increase mental heath issues.

The argument that it is a gateway drug is also pretty accurate in my opinion. Growing up I never seen anyone going straight from taking nothing to taking class A drugs. They all started with weed / hash and stepped it up from there. Would legalising the drug at the bottom of the pile risk giving people a more open view to trying more dangerous drugs?

A fear for me personally would be the likely hood of more people driving under the influence of drugs due to being able to smoke weed legally and judgment free in places that they currently cannot. A huge awareness campaign would be needed to stigmatise the hell out of it.

I can also see the flip side of this and could argue that anyone who want to get cannabis can do so without any hardship whatsoever anyway, so at least by legalisation it the strength and strains could be regulated to be less potent and the profit used to help fund more mental health services.

I don’t think there’s as clear cut correct answer as some people do.

You could flip that around to say ththere'a large number of people who suffer from mental health problem of which could be helped by cannibas. The vast majority of users can function normally without negative side effects much like people who have a few drinks at the weekend with their mates.

I just don't think a substance should be banned for everyone just because a few people will harm themselves with the said substance. If that's the case we should immediately ban alcohol, along with activities such as sky diving and base jumping which statistically are much more dangerous than smoking a joint.

There's a huge problem with the education kids get around drugs as they are just told these drugs are very bad you must never take them, rather than teaching children about the effects and true dangers. Prohibition doesnt work so at least teach people harm reduction to make them safer

[Since90+2]

You could flip that around to say ththere'a large number of people who suffer from mental health problem of which could be helped by cannibas. The vast majority of users can function normally without negative side effects much like people who have a few drinks at the weekend with their mates.

I just don't think a substance should be banned for everyone just because a few people will harm themselves with the said substance. If that's the case we should immediately ban alcohol, along with activities such as sky diving and base jumping which statistically are much more dangerous than smoking a joint.

There's a huge problem with the education kids get around drugs as they are just told these drugs are very bad you must never take them, rather than teaching children about the effects and true dangers. Prohibition doesnt work so at least teach people harm reduction to make them safer

Is cannabis known to help mental health issues? I know it's linked to easing pain in physical illness but I've never heard it being used for aiding mental health.

[SChibs]

Is cannabis known to help mental health issues? I know it's linked to easing pain in physical illness but I've never heard it being used for aiding mental health.

It can help with anxiety, PTSD and sleep issues.

[LewysGot2]

My youngest has had his mental health massively affected by cannabis. He’s not the sane guy he was 10 years ago. I’ve absolutely no doubt it’s due to smoking. It’s pretty gutting to see.
How old is he? Did he start at a young age?

[easty]

How old is he? Did he start at a young age?

He’s 34. I dunno when I he first had it, but between his early 20s and now he’s been doing too much. We’re talking pretty much daily, rather than just every now and then.

He’s stopped seeing his friends. He grudgingly sees our family for special occasions, he turned up for my mums 60th last weekend. Stayed half an hour then left, without even a word to my mum. He thinks we’re all against him for some reason. Nobody has ever given him any reason to think it, it’s all in his head.

Before the smoking he was so different.

[silverhibee]

Before I get slated I’m not strongly for or against legalisation, however as far as case against it I would argue the following.

The county is in the early stages or a serious mental health epidemic that were already struggling to cope with, especially among younger people (who are also the group most likely to increase consumption if legalised Imo). There are numerous studies that show a clear link between frequent cannabis use and increased risk of a mental health issue, namely anxiety, depression and psychosis among other issues. Legalisation runs the risk of increased consumption of the drug and therefore increase mental heath issues.

The argument that it is a gateway drug is also pretty accurate in my opinion. Growing up I never seen anyone going straight from taking nothing to taking class A drugs. They all started with weed / hash and stepped it up from there. Would legalising the drug at the bottom of the pile risk giving people a more open view to trying more dangerous drugs?

A fear for me personally would be the likely hood of more people driving under the influence of drugs due to being able to smoke weed legally and judgment free in places that they currently cannot. A huge awareness campaign would be needed to stigmatise the hell out of it.

I can also see the flip side of this and could argue that anyone who want to get cannabis can do so without any hardship whatsoever anyway, so at least by legalisation it the strength and strains could be regulated to be less potent and the profit used to help fund more mental health services.

I don’t think there’s as clear cut correct answer as some people do.

Would like to know what age group’s these studies were done on, maybe the problem is that the young folk nowadays smoke strong weed, I will put my hands up and say I have smoked cannabis since I was about 14, by 18 I was smoking it every day, back then it was hash rather than weed, soap bar pollen and different kinds of black were the only things you could get, weed was nice to have if you could get it, my friends were smokers of it as well and I can honestly say none have mental health problems, maybe a good reason for legalising it is that you would get different strains and folk can get lighter strains that may not cause the problems you talk about.

I really disagree with you about it being a gateway to stronger drugs, nonsense peddled by the American government, growing up in Muirhouse I seen loads of folk go straight to herion abuse, I seen good friends get addicted to the stuff who never smoked hash in there life, and nowadays I know plenty folk who put loads of cocaine up there noses who have never smoked hash/weed in there life’s, it will get legalised in this country at some point as this government will see how much Money can be made from it, I stopped smoking it last year, had started smoking weed for the last 5 years but it is a pricey drug to buy, £200 for a ounce that might only last you a few weeks, I could afford it but not now, it would be nice to go to a cafe and have a couple of Js rather than buy a big bag of it.

[Kato]

Would like to know what age group’s these studies were done on, maybe the problem is that the young folk nowadays smoke strong weed, I will put my hands up and say I have smoked cannabis since I was about 14, by 18 I was smoking it every day, back then it was hash rather than weed, soap bar pollen and different kinds of black were the only things you could get, weed was nice to have if you could get it, my friends were smokers of it as well and I can honestly say none have mental health problems, maybe a good reason for legalising it is that you would get different strains and folk can get lighter strains that may not cause the problems you talk about.

I really disagree with you about it being a gateway to stronger drugs, nonsense peddled by the American government, growing up in Muirhouse I seen loads of folk go straight to herion abuse, I seen good friends get addicted to the stuff who never smoked hash in there life, and nowadays I know plenty folk who put loads of cocaine up there noses who have never smoked hash/weed in there life’s, it will get legalised in this country at some point as this government will see how much Money can be made from it, I stopped smoking it last year, had started smoking weed for the last 5 years but it is a pricey drug to buy, £200 for a ounce that might only last you a few weeks, I could afford it but not now, it would be nice to go to a cafe and have a couple of Js rather than buy a big bag of it.Alcohol is more connected to heroin use than canabis.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Gateway thing is daft or Holland and Portugal would be full of people on smack. The two drugs are so unconnected it's unreal. If anything getting your drugs from a dealer who also sells heroin, would increase the chances from buying from a cannabis shop.

Everyone that wants cannabis can get it from multiple people just now anyway, the kids can even order easily from the Web and Snapchat. So why not get that money into the exchequer and away from gangs and terrorists?

Could spend the profits on health and drug education. I've got dozens of Dutch mates and none of them take it although it's in shops all around them, they all love a bevy mind

[CropleyWasGod]

A step forward IMO

BBC News - Drugs death taskforce chief says punishing addicts must stop
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62246260

[Ozyhibby]

A step forward IMO

BBC News - Drugs death taskforce chief says punishing addicts must stop
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62246260

Yes, looks like they have the right ideas at last. Drug addiction needs to be dealt with as a health issue.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Yes, looks like they have the right ideas at last. Drug addiction needs to be dealt with as a health issue.


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I have brief experience of working with David Strang, back in his L and B days. He always struck me as pragmatic. This report bears that out.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcjamescook/status/1552573988219535361?s=21&t=GYiursBRXfybQ02V3aLbqg

A step in the right direction and hopefully recent changes will see further improvements.


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[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/bbcjamescook/status/1552573988219535361?s=21&t=GYiursBRXfybQ02V3aLbqg

A step in the right direction and hopefully recent changes will see further improvements.


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Hopefully, although the drop in numbers is so small and the scale of the problem in Scotland so depressingly vast compared to the rest of the figures recorded across the UK and Europe that you'd be wary of reading too much into the latest update.

[Keith_M]

Hopefully, although the drop in numbers is so small and the scale of the problem in Scotland so depressingly vast compared to the rest of the figures recorded across the UK and Europe that you'd be wary of reading too much into the latest update.


Yeah, I think it looks more like the figures have just levelled out than anything else.

It's a weird situation we have in Scotland, where the issues with drugs has been a lot worse than most other countries for such a long time. I'd imagine it's the same for alcohol related issues.


I realise that could be taken in the wrong way but I'm honestly not meaning this as a politically motivated excuse or anything like that. I just find it a sad situation and wonder how it got so bad here.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah, I think it looks more like the figures have just levelled out than anything else.

It's a weird situation we have in Scotland, where the issues with drugs has been a lot worse than most other countries for such a long time. I'd imagine it's the same for alcohol related issues.


I realise that could be taken in the wrong way but I'm honestly not meaning this as a politically motivated excuse or anything like that. I just find it a sad situation and wonder how it got so bad here.

From the report referenced above:


1.3 What is the cause of Scotland’s higher rates?

Some characteristics of the profile and behaviours of people who use drugs and their patterns of use add complexity to the nature of our challenge in Scotland. We have concluded that four key issues are prominent.

1.3.1 High-risk drug use
Ninety-three percent of people who died from a drug-related death in Scotland in 2020 had more than one drug present in their body at death (1). Combinations of opioids, cocaine and benzodiazepines put people at particularly high risk.

1.3.2 A high-risk group
Chronic and multiple complex disadvantage – poor physical and mental health, unemployment, unstable housing, involvement with the criminal justice system and family breakdown – can predispose people to high-risk drug use. Multiple disadvantage is more common is Scotland due to the legacy of economic and social challenges from the 1980s. Opportunities to support people to address such issues may have been missed in the past because of lack of adequate service funding and access to treatments. Those most at risk can have a pattern of near-fatal overdose incidents leading ultimately to a fatal outcome.

1.3.3 Concentrated social deprivation
Deprivation is linked to adverse social and health circumstances, including poor mental and physical health, high exposure to trauma and increased incidence of adverse childhood experiences. All of these are recognised risk factors for drug use (2). In 2020, people in the most deprived areas in Scotland were 18 times more likely to die of a drug-related death than those in the least deprived. This rate has almost doubled in 20 years, from around 10 times more likely in the early 2000s (1).

1.3.4 Stigma
People who use drugs are highly stigmatised. Many feel that the healthcare system often sees only the drug problem and does not recognise the person. This perception dissuades many from accessing services.

[Stairway 2 7]

From the report referenced above:

Most of the things mentioned cross borders so doesn't really explain. It's not a small difference either

26058

[LewysGot2]

Yeah, I think it looks more like the figures have just levelled out than anything else.

It's a weird situation we have in Scotland, where the issues with drugs has been a lot worse than most other countries for such a long time. I'd imagine it's the same for alcohol related issues.


I realise that could be taken in the wrong way but I'm honestly not meaning this as a politically motivated excuse or anything like that. I just find it a sad situation and wonder how it got so bad here.

That's what I was asking for. Cut through the political football games from all sides - why do we have issues with alcohol and drugs that are at the wrong end of the league?

Culture? Deprivation? Social?

Is it just the schemes of the big cities or are there other demographics in the equation?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Are drug deaths recorded any differently in Scotland?

[He's here!]

Most of the things mentioned cross borders so doesn't really explain. It's not a small difference either

26058

Indeed. The factors cited are far from unique to Scotland. There must be something that runs deeper in this country and this country alone.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are drug deaths recorded any differently in Scotland?

There are differences in how drug related deaths are reported compared to the rest of the UK and Europe, but not enough to be significant. (the ferret factcheck)

[Keith_M]

From the report referenced above:

...


That's interesting, thanks


:aok:



With that in mind, it certainly doesn't sound like a problem that's going to be easy to solve, not matter who's in power.

[SChibs]

I think it would be interesting to see a breakdown of the deaths. As in which drugs were involved in x ammount of deaths and which ones were due to overdoses and which were 'drug related'

[Keith_M]

Indeed. The factors cited are far from unique to Scotland. There must be something that runs deeper in this country and this country alone.


Probably mentioned already but you hear a lot about something they call "The Glasgow Effect", originally called "The Scottish Effect".


"In fact, other studies seem to suggest that even greater challenges exist. Within the Greater Glasgow area, there appears a further nested disparity. For example, males living in Bridgeton and Dennistoun have a life expectancy fifteen years lower than fellow Glaswegians residing, less than 5 miles away, in the more affluent Anniesland and Bearsden areas"
...
"Notably, males from Dennistoun have only a 53% chance of reaching their 65th birthday"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4979043/

[Stairway 2 7]

What is different in England or what they do different. They certainly have poverty and the same drugs as us

[beensaidbefore]

Would like to know what age group’s these studies were done on, maybe the problem is that the young folk nowadays smoke strong weed, I will put my hands up and say I have smoked cannabis since I was about 14, by 18 I was smoking it every day, back then it was hash rather than weed, soap bar pollen and different kinds of black were the only things you could get, weed was nice to have if you could get it, my friends were smokers of it as well and I can honestly say none have mental health problems, maybe a good reason for legalising it is that you would get different strains and folk can get lighter strains that may not cause the problems you talk about.

I really disagree with you about it being a gateway to stronger drugs, nonsense peddled by the American government, growing up in Muirhouse I seen loads of folk go straight to herion abuse, I seen good friends get addicted to the stuff who never smoked hash in there life, and nowadays I know plenty folk who put loads of cocaine up there noses who have never smoked hash/weed in there life’s, it will get legalised in this country at some point as this government will see how much Money can be made from it, I stopped smoking it last year, had started smoking weed for the last 5 years but it is a pricey drug to buy, £200 for a ounce that might only last you a few weeks, I could afford it but not now, it would be nice to go to a cafe and have a couple of Js rather than buy a big bag of it.

Brave and honest post.

I'm a few years younger than you but have a very similar experience. Most of my close friend group have been around since school and we all love getting together for a smoke. Some of us smoke daily some less regularly. Some have given up. We have always been in full employment and some even run their own successful businesses.

Instead of us potentially being criminalised for something we enjoy, it would be great to have a few places you could go and enjoy it with other like minded people. Like a pub, only a smoking place. Membership required, if need be.

[Ozyhibby]

Brave and honest post.

I'm a few years younger than you but have a very similar experience. Most of my close friend group have been around since school and we all love getting together for a smoke. Some of us smoke daily some less regularly. Some have given up. We have always been in full employment and some even run their own successful businesses.

Instead of us potentially being criminalised for something we enjoy, it would be great to have a few places you could go and enjoy it with other like minded people. Like a pub, only a smoking place. Membership required, if need be.

While I think there will be legalisation in the future at some point, I doubt there will ever be places to go to smoke due to the smoking ban.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Pretty awful graphs for the snp, especially as the massive rise has happened since Sturgeon has been in power

[hibby rae]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Pretty awful graphs for the snp, especially as the massive rise has happened since Sturgeon has been in power

I haven't read the previous 20 pages of this thread, but I'm sure at some point it would have been pointed out drugs policy is the remit of Westminster, so I'm not sure how the SNP can be the culprits here. Even in an editorial in a right wing publication.

It would be like criticising the SNP for the bombing of Syria.

The SNP aren't above criticism on a lot of things. But this won't be one of those areas until it comes under the mandate of the Scottish Government, as they have requested on numerous occasions.

[marinello59]

I haven't read the previous 20 pages of this thread, but I'm sure at some point it would have been pointed out drugs policy is the remit of Westminster, so I'm not sure how the SNP can be the culprits here. Even in an editorial in a right wing publication.

It would be like criticising the SNP for the bombing of Syria.

The SNP aren't above criticism on a lot of things. But this won't be one of those areas until it comes under the mandate of the Scottish Government, as they have requested on numerous occasions.

Sturgeon put her hands up to this one and admitted her Government had taken their eye off the ball. There is much more we could have and should have been doing with the powers we have. Hopefully we are heading in the right direction now.

[Hibrandenburg]

The whole drugs question is a farce, some of the causes can only be addressed by using reserved powers and others by using devolved powers in exactly the same way that many of the solutions fall under reserved powers and also devolved powers. I get the feeling that the Scottish government would be happy to discuss working together with Westminster to find solutions, however Westminster just seems set in its ways.

[Stairway 2 7]

I haven't read the previous 20 pages of this thread, but I'm sure at some point it would have been pointed out drugs policy is the remit of Westminster, so I'm not sure how the SNP can be the culprits here. Even in an editorial in a right wing publication.

It would be like criticising the SNP for the bombing of Syria.

The SNP aren't above criticism on a lot of things. But this won't be one of those areas until it comes under the mandate of the Scottish Government, as they have requested on numerous occasions.

I guess you didn't read it. There is lots of devolved differences in the uks drugs policies and treatment.

[hibby rae]

I guess you didn't read it. There is lots of devolved differences in the uks drugs policies and treatment.

I did. Scots Gov has suggested similar in the past to safe spaces for addicts, but the Home Office won't countenance it,

Treatment of drug users can be undertaken by SG as that can be classed as a health issue, but whilst Westminster still sees it as a criminal and not health matter drugs policy will remain archaic and then the figures will get worse.

Drawing a link to rising drugs deaths and devolution could easily be false equivalence, it's just as fair to say the politics of those in power and control drugs policy has consistently moved to the right whilst drugs deaths have risen.

If real change is going to come, at the moment it has to come from London because Edinburgh isn't allowed the tools to properly address it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I did. Scots Gov has suggested similar in the past to safe spaces for addicts, but the Home Office won't countenance it,

Treatment of drug users can be undertaken by SG as that can be classed as a health issue, but whilst Westminster still sees it as a criminal and not health matter drugs policy will remain archaic and then the figures will get worse.

Drawing a link to rising drugs deaths and devolution could easily be false equivalence, it's just as fair to say the politics of those in power and control drugs policy has consistently moved to the right whilst drugs deaths have risen.

If real change is going to come, at the moment it has to come from London because Edinburgh isn't allowed the tools to properly address it.

That would make sense if the same drug laws weren't in place in England where the numbers are flat. We don't need point scoring we need answers why drug deaths have flown up in Scotland in the last decade. Everything I've seen as a reason could be applied to the rest of the uk but isn't happening there

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Pretty awful graphs for the snp, especially as the massive rise has happened since Sturgeon has been in power

Irrespective of one's opinion of the Spectator the stats in there are mind-boggling and deeply depressing.

Even if the 'Holyrood's hands are tied' claim were true (which it isn't) it would do nothing to address the core question of why Scotland's drugs deaths are so off the scale awful. Figures in the rest of the UK aren't even in the same ball park.

[Ozyhibby]

Irrespective of one's opinion of the Spectator the stats in there are mind-boggling and deeply depressing.

Even if the 'Holyrood's hands are tied' claim were true (which it isn't) it would do nothing to address the core question of why Scotland's drugs deaths are so off the scale awful. Figures in the rest of the UK aren't even in the same ball park.

Because we have been getting it wrong. It’s now being addressed.
It’s a bit like why there appears to be no reason why England’s crime figures are so ‘off the scale awful’ compared to Scotland’s?
You won’t see any Spectator articles on that though. And I’m not sure anyone in England is doing anything to address that situation.


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[SChibs]

That would make sense if the same drug laws weren't in place in England where the numbers are flat. We don't need point scoring we need answers why drug deaths have flown up in Scotland in the last decade. Everything I've seen as a reason could be applied to the rest of the uk but isn't happening there

I'm not trying to be funny here but could the reason be we have a poorer quality of drugs up here. Most drugs will enter the country through England and probably end up being cut with random stuff all the way down the chain before it reaches Scotland. Most overdoses aren't caused by the substance the user is meaning to consume it is when the drug is cut with something it shouldn't be. This leads to folk mixing when they don't mean to and taking too much of a substance they weren't aware they were taking.


Legalisation and regulation would combat this problem imo

[He's here!]

Because we have been getting it wrong. It’s now being addressed.
It’s a bit like why there appears to be no reason why England’s crime figures are so ‘off the scale awful’ compared to Scotland’s?
You won’t see any Spectator articles on that though. And I’m not sure anyone in England is doing anything to address that situation.


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Sometimes it's permissible to acknowledge that certain aspects of life (or in this case death) in Scotland are c**p without throwing in some whataboutery.

Any publication or media outlet, whatever their political hue, will have done as much when it comes to Scotland and drugs deaths.

[Zambernardi1875]

Sometimes it's permissible to acknowledge that certain aspects of life (or in this case death) in Scotland are c**p without throwing in some whataboutery.

Any publication or media outlet, whatever their political hue, will have done as much when it comes to Scotland and drugs deaths.

are the laws and powers around drugs devolved to scottish gov?

[Stairway 2 7]

are the laws and powers around drugs devolved to scottish gov?

I don't think that answers what changed in Scotland in the last 8 years that means deaths shot up. They didn't in Wales ni and England with the same laws in place.

[beensaidbefore]

While I think there will be legalisation in the future at some point, I doubt there will ever be places to go to smoke due to the smoking ban.


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Sadly, I think you're probably right about that.

[Keith_M]

Deaths from 'drugs' is quite high in Scotland,but the numbers pale in comparison to another addictive drug, Tobacco.

I've been reading up on both in the last few days and it's striking how similar the reasons given are for both of these issues.


From: http://www.healthscotland.scot/health-topics/smoking/smoking-prevention

"There are clear links between tobacco use and inequality, and therefore with health inequalities.


Smoking rates are still highest in the most deprived areas, with 35% of people living in the most deprived areas of Scotland smoking compared to 10% in the least deprived areas
29.3% of pregnant women in the most deprived areas are current smokers at their first antenatal appointment, compared to 4.5% in the least deprived areas.


"People living in the most deprived areas are much more likely to smoke as they are


less likely to feel in control of their life
less likely to know where to get help to stop smoking
more likely to experience stress and mental health issues
likely to have less encouragement and social support to quit
likely to be less aware of the harm of smoking and second hand smoke
more likely to smoke heavily and have a stronger nicotine dependence and therefore find it harder to stop."

...and significantly...

"It is easier to access the things that harm our health in these areas."

[He's here!]

I don't think that answers what changed in Scotland in the last 8 years that means deaths shot up. They didn't in Wales ni and England with the same laws in place.

There don't appear to be any clear answers provided for this. As you say, the same factors cited as key factors in drugs death rates in Scotland (in particular areas of social deprivation) are every bit as prevalent in other parts of the UK.

Audit Scotland did cite a lack of clarity around the Scottish Government's approach earlier this year:

Government's drug and alcohol plans must be clearer, says report - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60650944)

[Zambernardi1875]

There don't appear to be any clear answers provided for this. As you say, the same factors cited as key factors in drugs death rates in Scotland (in particular areas of social deprivation) are every bit as prevalent in other parts of the UK.

Audit Scotland did cite a lack of clarity around the Scottish Government's approach earlier this year:

Government's drug and alcohol plans must be clearer, says report - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60650944)

So they aren’t devolved. Right gotcha.

[He's here!]

So they aren’t devolved. Right gotcha.

Not sure how you drew that conclusion from reading that article?

As others have explained, treatment and prevention is devolved but the question being asked is why, when control of drugs across the UK comes under the Misuse of Drugs Act, is the number of drugs deaths so off the scale in Scotland alone? Why those numbers have rocketed during Nicola Sturgeon's eight-year tenure as FM is another valid question.

[Zambernardi1875]

Not sure how you drew that conclusion from reading that article?

As others have explained, treatment and prevention is devolved but the question being asked is why, when control of drugs across the UK comes under the Misuse of Drugs Act, is the number of drugs deaths so off the scale in Scotland alone? Why those numbers have rocketed during Nicola Sturgeon's eight-year tenure as FM is another valid question.

Are all drug powers and levers devolved ru the Scottish government? Yes or no

[Stairway 2 7]

Are all drug powers and levers devolved ru the Scottish government? Yes or no

Some are, the ones that aren't are the same as the other uk nations where drug deaths haven't flew up

[He's here!]

Are all drug powers and levers devolved ru the Scottish government? Yes or no

What did you not understand about my answer to that?

Out of interest why do you think Scotland has such a uniquely grim record with this problem? I've yet to see an explanation from anyone which would come close to explaining it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure how you drew that conclusion from reading that article?

As others have explained, treatment and prevention is devolved but the question being asked is why, when control of drugs across the UK comes under the Misuse of Drugs Act, is the number of drugs deaths so off the scale in Scotland alone? Why those numbers have rocketed during Nicola Sturgeon's eight-year tenure as FM is another valid question.

Are you suggesting that nicola sturgeon is a drug dealer 🤔😁

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minimum-alcohol-pricing-has-driven-people-to-street-drugs-say-experts-8t5z8tsf9

Scotland’s state-imposed price controls for alcohol have driven some people to turn to cheap street drugs linked to hundreds of deaths last year, health experts have warned.

Last week official statistics confirmed that Scotland remains the drug death capital of Europe, with a growing number of fatalities among women

[grunt]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minimum-alcohol-pricing-has-driven-people-to-street-drugs-say-experts-8t5z8tsf9

Scotland’s state-imposed price controls for alcohol have driven some people to turn to cheap street drugs linked to hundreds of deaths last year, health experts have warned.

Can't read the article. Which health experts are saying this?

[James310]

Can't read the article. Which health experts are saying this?

https://archive.ph/6JWyh

[grunt]

https://archive.ph/6JWyh
Always remember The Times is a UK Government mouthpiece, so any story published has to be viewed with the understanding that it is published in order to knock the Scottish Gov.

There seems to be no evidence to support the theory, and the proponents themselves say it is based on anecdotal evidence. It doesn't refer to previous research that says MUP has had a positive effect on health in Scotland.

There then follows a long list of opposition politicians lining up to take potshots at the Scot Gov policy.

I'm not saying this article is untrue, I just don't know. It is clear that Scotland has a particular problem with drugs - it has been this way for decades. The opposition parties never seem to have ideas for resolving the situation - they just stand on the sidelines and criticise, and media such as The Times facilitate that.

[He's here!]

Always remember The Times is a UK Government mouthpiece, so any story published has to be viewed with the understanding that it is published in order to knock the Scottish Gov.

There seems to be no evidence to support the theory, and the proponents themselves say it is based on anecdotal evidence. It doesn't refer to previous research that says MUP has had a positive effect on health in Scotland.

There then follows a long list of opposition politicians lining up to take potshots at the Scot Gov policy.

I'm not saying this article is untrue, I just don't know. It is clear that Scotland has a particular problem with drugs - it has been this way for decades. The opposition parties never seem to have ideas for resolving the situation - they just stand on the sidelines and criticise, and media such as The Times facilitate that.

We may have had a problem for decades but the figures point to something going especially awry (to put it mildly) over the last eight years.

Re oppostion ideas, the bill proposed by Labour's Paul Sweeney seems well put together:

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/proposals-for-bills/proposed-drugs-death-prevention-scotland-bill

[Stairway 2 7]

Always remember The Times is a UK Government mouthpiece, so any story published has to be viewed with the understanding that it is published in order to knock the Scottish Gov.

There seems to be no evidence to support the theory, and the proponents themselves say it is based on anecdotal evidence. It doesn't refer to previous research that says MUP has had a positive effect on health in Scotland.

There then follows a long list of opposition politicians lining up to take potshots at the Scot Gov policy.

I'm not saying this article is untrue, I just don't know. It is clear that Scotland has a particular problem with drugs - it has been this way for decades. The opposition parties never seem to have ideas for resolving the situation - they just stand on the sidelines and criticise, and media such as The Times facilitate that.

I'm totally stunned that you would say Scottish drugs forum and favor were wrong and scot gov were right.

The thinking that people who are addicted to alcohol or use it to escape, would just stop because its more expensive is beyond stupid

[Keith_M]

I'm totally stunned that you would say Scottish drugs forum and favor were wrong and scot gov were right.

The thinking that people who are addicted to alcohol or use it to escape, would just stop because its more expensive is beyond stupid


I don't think anybody would claim that, as if it was some kind of 'silver bullet'.


I was always under the impression that it was introduced in an attempt to lower consumption, partly to combat the tactics of certain outlets that used low priced alcohol as a 'loss leader'.

IIRC, it was also a proposal made by Labour in the north of England at one point, for the very same reason.


My personal view is that I applaud any group, no matter their political allegiance, that at least makes an attempt to reduce problems like this. If it turns out not to work, then no big deal, at least they tried.

[grunt]

"beyond stupid"Less of the personal insults please. Just because I question your views. You have a really bad habit of being highly contemptuous on here of other people's viewpoints.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think anybody would claim that, as if it was some kind of 'silver bullet'.


I was always under the impression that it was introduced in an attempt to lower consumption, partly to combat the tactics of certain outlets that used low priced alcohol as a 'loss leader'.

IIRC, it was also a proposal made by Labour in the north of England at one point, for the very same reason.


My personal view is that I applaud any group, no matter their political allegiance, that at least makes an attempt to reduce problems like this. If it turns out not to work, then no big deal, at least they tried.

It specifically targeted low-cost, high-strength beverages, seen as a source of problem drinking apparently. Alcohol related deaths are climbing. And drug deaths are out of control, I'm all for doing things that work.

@JournoStephen

Since 1999, 14,736 Scots have died from drugs misuse.

That is:

🔴2x the number of civilians killed so far by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

🔴4x the death toll of the Troubles

🔴>4x the number of Israelis killed by terrorism since 1948

[Keith_M]

I noticed that a couple of posters, that were being quite balanced and reasonable about this issue, now seem to have reverted to type by trying to blame Sturgeon for it.

I'm certainly not a blind follower of the SNP and Sturgeon, as I'm happy to criticise them where it's warranted, but TBH I think that's ridiculous..

[Stairway 2 7]

Less of the personal insults please. Just because I question your views. You have a really bad habit of being highly contemptuous on here of other people's viewpoints.

I wasn't speaking about you, you never said you thought minimum pricing would stop problem drinking I don't think

[Stairway 2 7]

I noticed that a couple of posters, that were being quite balanced and reasonable about this issue, now seem to have reverted to type by trying to blame Sturgeon for it.

I'm certainly not a blind follower of the SNP and Sturgeon, as I'm happy to criticise them where it's warranted, but TBH I think that's ridiculous..

Not Sturgeon but scot gov, who else is to blame for deaths in Scotland that aren't coming close in the other nations. There's hundreds of things that the vile tory government are doing wrong down south and we need independence. But who is taking the blame for the massive rise in Scottish deaths

[Keith_M]

It specifically targeted low-cost, high-strength beverages, seen as a source of problem drinking apparently. Alcohol related deaths are climbing. And drug deaths are out of control, I'm all for doing things that work.

@JournoStephen

Since 1999, 14,736 Scots have died from drugs misuse.

That is:

🔴2x the number of civilians killed so far by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

🔴4x the death toll of the Troubles

🔴>4x the number of Israelis killed by terrorism since 1948



But how do you know something is or isn't going to work until you try?

:dunno:


Scotland has had a massive problem with alcoholism for a very long time, which has by all accounts got worse (along with the drugs issue) since the 1980s.

I'd rather see people at least try to do something about it than just ignore it.

[grunt]

I'd rather see people at least try to do something about it than just ignore it.
The opposition parties in Scotland - and their supporters in the press and elsewhere - don't have suggestions about how to improve things. They just stand on the sidelines and criticise.

[Stairway 2 7]

But how do you know something is or isn't going to work until you try?

:dunno:


Scotland has had a massive problem with alcoholism for a very long time, which has by all accounts got worse (along with the drugs issue) since the 1980s.

I'd rather see people at least try to do something about it than just ignore it.

Scots seem to think that but we're pretty average for the EU and tiny compared to Eastern Europe
26067

Alchohol consumption took a massive jump down in Scotland around 2010, whatever happened then needs repeated. Youth drinking has been plummeting the last 20 years
26068

[James310]

The opposition parties in Scotland - and their supporters in the press and elsewhere - don't have suggestions about how to improve things. They just stand on the sidelines and criticise.

That's not particularly accurate, what did you make of this? Did you know it even existed?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61632116.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

The opposition parties in Scotland - and their supporters in the press and elsewhere - don't have suggestions about how to improve things. They just stand on the sidelines and criticise.

But it's not that drug deaths have stood still they are flying up, just in Scotland. What is England and Wales doing differently, can we be grown up and try to copy them. People are rightfully angry

[marinello59]

The opposition parties in Scotland - and their supporters in the press and elsewhere - don't have suggestions about how to improve things. They just stand on the sidelines and criticise.

That’s a particularly unfair comment, there is a cross party desire to put an end to these deaths with both Labour and the Lib Dems suggesting measures that could be taken. No doubt the Tories have ideas as well though I haven’t been paying so much attention to them. The SNP Government to their credit have admitted that more could have been done and are doing so now. It’s good to see.

[James310]

That’s a particularly unfair comment, there is a cross party desire to put an end to these deaths with both Labour and the Lib Dems suggesting measures that could be taken. No doubt the Tories have ideas as well though I haven’t been paying so much attention to them. The SNP Government to their credit have admitted that more could have been done and are doing so now. It’s good to see.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61632116.amp


"The Scottish government said it would consider backing the bill."

[He's here!]

That’s a particularly unfair comment, there is a cross party desire to put an end to these deaths with both Labour and the Lib Dems suggesting measures that could be taken. No doubt the Tories have ideas as well though I haven’t been paying so much attention to them. The SNP Government to their credit have admitted that more could have been done and are doing so now. It’s good to see.

Re the Tories they've put this front and centre too. Think Ross and Sturgeon visited treatment centres together plus IIRC there was a Tory bill put before Holyrood a couple of months back.

[Zambernardi1875]

What did you not understand about my answer to that?

Out of interest why do you think Scotland has such a uniquely grim record with this problem? I've yet to see an explanation from anyone which would come close to explaining it.

Aah I see, So compare Scotland’s record when worse than wales and Ireland but not even better than England

[He's here!]

Aah I see, So compare Scotland’s record when worse than wales and Ireland but not even better than England

Sorry, I don't understand your comment.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61632116.amp


"The Scottish government said it would consider backing the bill."


Ah, they've finally published the bill. They've been talking about it for yonks. We can maybe have a look at it now.

I see their were only 195 respondents to the consultation. Rather poor for a subject that's getting as much media space. I thought there'd be more.

[Hibrandenburg]

We may have had a problem for decades but the figures point to something going especially awry (to put it mildly) over the last eight years.

Re oppostion ideas, the bill proposed by Labour's Paul Sweeney seems well put together:

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/proposals-for-bills/proposed-drugs-death-prevention-scotland-bill

Imo the rise in drug deaths is related to age. Drug deaths amongst older users are at a record high in Scotland. It could be that years of use has taken its toll on many addicts and the 80's generation are now paying with their lives.

Alcohol and substance abuse has plagued Scotland for centuries, that combined with our diet, years of social neglect and easy access to uncontrolled/punched drugs are probably behind the latest upturn in deaths. Decriminalisation of drugs and safe havens for addicts is the answer, the Scottish government have hinted heavily about wanting to go down this route but can't because the power to do so doesn't lie in Holyrood.

[James310]

Ah, they've finally published the bill. They've been talking about it for yonks. We can maybe have a look at it now.

I see their were only 195 respondents to the consultation. Rather poor for a subject that's getting as much media space. I thought there'd be more.

Where you one of the 195, seeing as you were obviously waiting eagerly to see it?

[Keith_M]

...

Alchohol consumption took a massive jump down in Scotland around 2010, whatever happened then needs repeated. Youth drinking has been plummeting the last 20 years
26068


That's at least a positive sign.

:aok:

[Keith_M]

That’s a particularly unfair comment, there is a cross party desire to put an end to these deaths with both Labour and the Lib Dems suggesting measures that could be taken. No doubt the Tories have ideas as well though I haven’t been paying so much attention to them. The SNP Government to their credit have admitted that more could have been done and are doing so now. It’s good to see.


It would be good to get them all together to agree a plan of action.

TBF, bitching from the sidelines is the role of the opposition, and probably a lot of fun, but doing something together would be a refreshing approach.

[ronaldo7]

Where you one of the 195, seeing as you were obviously waiting eagerly to see it?

Mine is done though the branch. We'll have another discussion about it next Tuesday. 👍

I think the whole parliament were eager to see it. Glad they eventually got their act together

[makaveli1875]

Mine is done though the branch. We'll have another discussion about it next Tuesday. 👍

I think the whole parliament were eager to see it. Glad they eventually got their act together

Do you have any idea why Scotland is the outlier ?

Is it higher death rate because more people in Scotland use hard drugs ? Or a similar amount of users to elsewhere but consuming higher quantities , are the drugs stronger here . What is the cause of this tragic statistic

[ronaldo7]

Do you have any idea why Scotland is the outlier ?

Is it higher death rate because more people in Scotland use hard drugs ? Or a similar amount of users to elsewhere but consuming higher quantities , are the drugs stronger here . What is the cause of this tragic statistic

Better men than me have tried to understand that question. It starts with poverty, and we've always had areas of the country which have had their troubles. Different stuff coming on the market too, but Im sure it's the same in deprived areas in the rest of the UK. We just need to get the deaths down somehow.

[ronaldo7]

Re the Tories they've put this front and centre too. Think Ross and Sturgeon visited treatment centres together plus IIRC there was a Tory bill put before Holyrood a couple of months back.

They visited a Glasgow centre in 2021, where, to be fair to dross, he said he'd defy Westminster, and back her proposals
for drug consumption rooms.

I don't think we're any further forward with them as the home office have blocked them as far as Im aware.

[Stairway 2 7]

PeterAdamSmith
·
Jul 28
9 fewer than the worst year Scotland has ever had for drug deaths is no achievement. This is still higher than every other year recorded. Scotland’s response to this worsening crisis over the last decade has been inadequate & shameful.

1,330 families grieving. Again

Lack of mental health & trauma support available, but illegal drugs to self-medicate are always plentiful in the poorest communities

Access to funded rehab beds is like a lottery win - only a handful of those from each impoverished, drug-blighted community in Scotland will ever be so lucky as to get a funded place. The wealthiest can self-fund & pay to go private

Lack of joined up thinking between services means people who overcome addiction are set up to fail. Come out of rehab or prison off drugs; sent straight to hostels or housing riddled with drugs. Seek help to come off drugs; denied help because you’re still on drugs. It’s failure

Bonnie Prince Bob
@VoteBPB
·
Jul 28
Drug death stats are a total indictment on the SNP & the entire Neu! Scotland nationalist project. All the slavering dribbles from the Billy Kay school of exceptionalism & the pathetic sycophants of our “alternative” media can’t hide the brutal reality of Ecosse inequality

Sturgeon invoking the “hands tied, drugs policy devolved” rhetoric is vulgar & galling. The idea that a determined, dynamic & legally defiant initiative couldn’t be implemented is ridiculous. When Sturgeon trots this line out she exploits these deaths for political capital

[Stairway 2 7]

Good thread from Darren mcgarvie

https://mobile.twitter.com/lokiscottishrap/status/1552673644031213569

Re-plumb the drug sector otherwise whatever money is poured in will just flow to same practices currently converging to produce failure. This is not about individuals, its about over reliance on old ideas, professional pride and systems that were never fit in the first place

[He's here!]

PeterAdamSmith
·
Jul 28
9 fewer than the worst year Scotland has ever had for drug deaths is no achievement. This is still higher than every other year recorded. Scotland’s response to this worsening crisis over the last decade has been inadequate & shameful.

1,330 families grieving. Again

Lack of mental health & trauma support available, but illegal drugs to self-medicate are always plentiful in the poorest communities

Access to funded rehab beds is like a lottery win - only a handful of those from each impoverished, drug-blighted community in Scotland will ever be so lucky as to get a funded place. The wealthiest can self-fund & pay to go private

Lack of joined up thinking between services means people who overcome addiction are set up to fail. Come out of rehab or prison off drugs; sent straight to hostels or housing riddled with drugs. Seek help to come off drugs; denied help because you’re still on drugs. It’s failure

Bonnie Prince Bob
@VoteBPB
·
Jul 28
Drug death stats are a total indictment on the SNP & the entire Neu! Scotland nationalist project. All the slavering dribbles from the Billy Kay school of exceptionalism & the pathetic sycophants of our “alternative” media can’t hide the brutal reality of Ecosse inequality

Sturgeon invoking the “hands tied, drugs policy devolved” rhetoric is vulgar & galling. The idea that a determined, dynamic & legally defiant initiative couldn’t be implemented is ridiculous. When Sturgeon trots this line out she exploits these deaths for political capital

Given the shocking scale of the death tally in comparison to other European nations I imagine the last thing Sturgeon would want to do would be to try and make political capital out of them - and to be fair to her she has described Scotland's stats during her term as FM as "indefensible".

I'd say there's a sense that all parties at Holyrood are disinclined to make too much 'political capital' out of this. Not because it doesn't have much cut through value at the ballot box (which it clearly doesn't) but because it is such a desperately sorry situation for Scotland which its in everyone's interests to come together and try to find a solution to. That's been reflected in the contributions by opposition parties, which the Scottish Government will hopefully give serious consideration to.

Given that we're still struggling to even understand why this country is so uniquely blighted though, it's a long road ahead.

[Stairway 2 7]

Alex massie as usual goes in hard on the snp

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c42bdbe-1105-11ed-b7ce-9b24bf628db2?shareToken=58c4a9685060a68a75767eb788 c8a2fd

[ronaldo7]

Alex massive as usual goes in hard on the snp

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c42bdbe-1105-11ed-b7ce-9b24bf628db2?shareToken=58c4a9685060a68a75767eb788 c8a2fd

Im sure he'd like to be known as massive. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Interesting from Daisley in that he backs consumption room and think the Scottish govt should go ahead and dare Westminster to stop them. Very strange from him given that he would do away with the Scottish parliament tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mon Dieu4]

Alex massie as usual goes in hard on the snp

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c42bdbe-1105-11ed-b7ce-9b24bf628db2?shareToken=58c4a9685060a68a75767eb788 c8a2fd

There is no excuse for the drug deaths in Scotland but if the SNP found a cure for cancer he'd find a negative in it, ******** of a man

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Interesting from Daisley in that he backs consumption room and think the Scottish govt should go ahead and dare Westminster to stop them. Very strange from him given that he would do away with the Scottish parliament tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would be helpful and respectful move if they opened them, but won't solve main problem as most of the deaths from legal methadone and benzos

[Ozyhibby]

There is no excuse for the drug deaths in Scotland but if the SNP found a cure for cancer he'd find a negative in it, ******** of a man

I think the interesting thing about this problem is that there appears to be no explanation for it? It’s not even a problem that covers all of Scotland. Edinburgh does not seem to be having the same problems as Glasgow and Dundee? I expect that over the next few years we will see consistent drops as money and resources are channeled into dealing with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mon Dieu4]

I think the interesting thing about this problem is that there appears to be no explanation for it? It’s not even a problem that covers all of Scotland. Edinburgh does not seem to be having the same problems as Glasgow and Dundee? I expect that over the next few years we will see consistent drops as money and resources are channeled into dealing with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

two thirds of of the people that die due to drugs are aged 35-54 and it's highly unlikely that anyone starts taking hard drugs at that age I'd say its childhood trauma and poverty that would be the main reasons people turn to them

You also have to remember that Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole was the Heroin and HIV capital of the world in the not too distant past, I think there was always going to be a fall out from that at some stage

The sooner it's all treated as a public health rather than criminal issue the better, the results Portugal and Switzerland have had speak for themselves but we've been saying that for years

[Stairway 2 7]

I think the interesting thing about this problem is that there appears to be no explanation for it? It’s not even a problem that covers all of Scotland. Edinburgh does not seem to be having the same problems as Glasgow and Dundee? I expect that over the next few years we will see consistent drops as money and resources are channeled into dealing with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2 drugs charities spokespeople said yesterday minimum pricing was pushing people to cheap benzos. Minimum pricing has only been in Scotland.

More probable is the only decent bit of massies piece, snp made a massive cut to drug and alcohol treatment funding. That is surely the most obvious cause

"Between 2015 and 2019 spending on drug and drink addiction services was cut by almost £50 million. In a country of only five million people, that’s a chunky amount of cash."

[He's here!]

Alex massie as usual goes in hard on the snp

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8c42bdbe-1105-11ed-b7ce-9b24bf628db2?shareToken=58c4a9685060a68a75767eb788 c8a2fd


That's a reasonable enough article with much to agree with.

The 'ach, Scotland's always been bad for drugs, drinks and fags' response can't cut it any more bearing in mind the surge in drugs deaths over recent years. As Massie says it's time a plausible explanation was found as to why people in Scotland are now five times more likely to die of drugs-related issues than in England.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scots-are-being-sacrificed-to-a-failed-drug-policy

Interesting from Daisley in that he backs consumption room and think the Scottish govt should go ahead and dare Westminster to stop them. Very strange from him given that he would do away with the Scottish parliament tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's also a decent article in that it offers constructive potential solutions, although it's a proposed Scottish Labour bill he sees as having the most merit.

[Ozyhibby]

That's also a decent article in that it offers constructive potential solutions, although it's a proposed Scottish Labour bill he sees as having the most merit.

It is a potential solution and one I support but I can’t see how it can happen unless Westminster support it? You would not be able to staff any clinic that is in danger of having been found to break the law.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

That's also a decent article in that it offers constructive potential solutions, although it's a proposed Scottish Labour bill he sees as having the most merit.

The home office have said they won't allow Scottish OPCs haven't they?

[He's here!]

2 drugs charities spokespeople said yesterday minimum pricing was pushing people to cheap benzos. Minimum pricing has only been in Scotland.

More probable is the only decent bit of massies piece, snp made a massive cut to drug and alcohol treatment funding. That is surely the most obvious cause

"Between 2015 and 2019 spending on drug and drink addiction services was cut by almost £50 million. In a country of only five million people, that’s a chunky amount of cash."

That was an issue which crossed my mind but I hadn't seen any feedback citing it as a potential factor.

[xyz23jc]

Im sure he'd like to be known as massive. 😂

To be fair I always think of him as a massive thr....! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

That was an issue which crossed my mind but I hadn't seen any feedback citing it as a potential factor.

It’s likely that there are a large combination of factors which is why it’s proving so hard to find one solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s likely that there are a large combination of factors which is why it’s proving so hard to find one solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you said before us pumping money at it in the next few years will bring the numbers down. You'll think scot gov cutting 50 milion from the budget in the last few years, must have shot the numbers up?

[Ozyhibby]

If you said before us pumping money at it in the next few years will bring the numbers down. You'll think scot gov cutting 50 milion from the budget in the last few years, must have shot the numbers up?

Almost certainly a contributing factor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Drug-related deaths in England and Wales have reached a record high, driven primarily by opiates, figures show.

There were 4,859 deaths related to drug poisoning registered in 2021 – a rate of 84.4 deaths per million people, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

This is the ninth consecutive annual rise, up 6.2% from the previous year, and the highest number since records began more than a quarter of a century ago in 1993.

The figures come after a slight reduction was recorded in the numbers for Scotland - which dropped slightly to 1,330, the first time the toll has been down in eight years

The ONS said the overall rising trend over the past decade has been driven primarily by deaths involving opiates, but also those involving other substances such as cocaine.

In the last year there have been “significant” rises from 2020 in deaths involving cocaine, methadone and new psychoactive substances.

[Moulin Yarns]

Drug-related deaths in England and Wales have reached a record high, driven primarily by opiates, figures show.

There were 4,859 deaths related to drug poisoning registered in 2021 – a rate of 84.4 deaths per million people, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

This is the ninth consecutive annual rise, up 6.2% from the previous year, and the highest number since records began more than a quarter of a century ago in 1993.

The figures come after a slight reduction was recorded in the numbers for Scotland - which dropped slightly to 1,330, the first time the toll has been down in eight years

The ONS said the overall rising trend over the past decade has been driven primarily by deaths involving opiates, but also those involving other substances such as cocaine.

In the last year there have been “significant” rises from 2020 in deaths involving cocaine, methadone and new psychoactive substances.


https://news.sky.com/story/heroin-related-deaths-growing-across-the-uk-as-government-accused-of-not-caring-by-one-of-its-own-drugs-advisers-12664443





When asked if anyone cared about the rising number of heroin-related deaths, Dr Emily Finch, a senior member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists who sits on the government's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, told Sky News: "I think that's one of the problems. I don't think, generally speaking, the general population do.



"I think many people, and perhaps that's reflected in the government, don't care much and that is why they have allowed a treatment system to largely atrophy.
"Some people care, there are good reasons to care: heroin users spend a lot of time in hospital, they cost us a lot of money, some of them commit crime. Those are all good reasons why supporting them properly, getting them into high quality treatment, probably in the end would save society money."

[ronaldo7]

https://news.sky.com/story/heroin-related-deaths-growing-across-the-uk-as-government-accused-of-not-caring-by-one-of-its-own-drugs-advisers-12664443

I think someone mentioned this on the thread. Related in the article.

Drug dealers have been blamed for bulking out the heroin to make more profit, despite knowing the compound is potentially fatal.

[Stairway 2 7]

Drug-related deaths in England and Wales have reached a record high, driven primarily by opiates, figures show.

There were 4,859 deaths related to drug poisoning registered in 2021 – a rate of 84.4 deaths per million people, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

This is the ninth consecutive annual rise, up 6.2% from the previous year, and the highest number since records began more than a quarter of a century ago in 1993.

The figures come after a slight reduction was recorded in the numbers for Scotland - which dropped slightly to 1,330, the first time the toll has been down in eight years

The ONS said the overall rising trend over the past decade has been driven primarily by deaths involving opiates, but also those involving other substances such as cocaine.

In the last year there have been “significant” rises from 2020 in deaths involving cocaine, methadone and new psychoactive substances.

Pretty shocking figures from ons today

@BBCJamesCook
Scotland's drug misuse death rate in 2021 was 4.8 times England's according to figures from the
@ONS
and
@NatRecordsScot
. There were 3,060 deaths in England and 1,330 in Scotland, an age-standardised rate of 52.2 per million in England and 250 per million in Scotland

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty shocking figures from ons today

@BBCJamesCook
Scotland's drug misuse death rate in 2021 was 4.8 times England's according to figures from the
@ONS
and
@NatRecordsScot
. There were 3,060 deaths in England and 1,330 in Scotland, an age-standardised rate of 52.2 per million in England and 250 per million in Scotland

How do Edinburgh’s figures compare with England’s? Trying to work out if this is a whole of Scotland problem or just certain areas?


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[He's here!]

Not seen a regional breakdown but the police divisions with the greatest numbers of suspected drugs deaths last year were Greater Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Edinburgh and Dundee (ie a coast to coast issue in areas of high population density).

[Mon Dieu4]

How do Edinburgh’s figures compare with England’s? Trying to work out if this is a whole of Scotland problem or just certain areas?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

109 people died in Edinburgh in 2021 due to drugs

[He's here!]

Pretty shocking figures from ons today

@BBCJamesCook
Scotland's drug misuse death rate in 2021 was 4.8 times England's according to figures from the
@ONS
and
@NatRecordsScot
. There were 3,060 deaths in England and 1,330 in Scotland, an age-standardised rate of 52.2 per million in England and 250 per million in Scotland

Shocking is the word.

[grunt]

Shocking is the word.
It's a competition is it?

They're both bad.

[Paul1642]

How do Edinburgh’s figures compare with England’s? Trying to work out if this is a whole of Scotland problem or just certain areas?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/drug-related-deaths/21/drug-related-deaths-21-report.pdf

Link above is a breakdown per area and age group. As expected the west is worse affected. The only positive I can see from the figures is that the younger age groups have much lower figures and aren’t rising which suggest that the young generations don’t have quite as large a problem with deadly drugs as the older ones which bodes well for the long term. It’s the 35 year old plus bracket that is continuing to skyrocket.

Then again there are probably a lot of variables involved and it’s possible that addicts just become more complacent with age or more dependent resulting in more consumption and therefore a higher risk of overdose, and likely other factors i haven’t considered. It would also make sense that older people just can’t put the same stress on their body’s as the youth.

In relation to the recently released figures it’s disappointing that the push to distribute free Naloxone (opioid overdose reversal shot) to users and those around them hasn’t had a noticeable impact on deaths.

[Paul1642]

Pretty shocking figures from ons today

@BBCJamesCook
Scotland's drug misuse death rate in 2021 was 4.8 times England's according to figures from the
@ONS
and
@NatRecordsScot
. There were 3,060 deaths in England and 1,330 in Scotland, an age-standardised rate of 52.2 per million in England and 250 per million in Scotland

Is there any explanation as to why our figures are so much worse. The roughest places in England dwarf those in Scotland IMO and on every occasion that I have spent time in England it has seemed to be completely rife with cocaine and other powders on a level I’ve never seen anywhere in Scotland.

Is it just that they draw the line at Opiods and Benzodiazepines?

There is a clear link between poverty and drug use yet our poverty level as are lower than the rest of the UK.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/drug-related-deaths/21/drug-related-deaths-21-report.pdf

Link above is a breakdown per area and age group. As expected the west is worse affected. The only positive I can see from the figures is that the younger age groups have much lower figures and aren’t rising which suggest that the young generations don’t have quite as large a problem with deadly drugs as the older ones which bodes well for the long term. It’s the 35 year old plus bracket that is continuing to skyrocket.

Then again there are probably a lot of variables involved and it’s possible that addicts just become more complacent with age or more dependent resulting in more consumption and therefore a higher risk of overdose, and likely other factors i haven’t considered. It would also make sense that older people just can’t put the same stress on their body’s as the youth.

In relation to the recently released figures it’s disappointing that the push to distribute free Naloxone (opioid overdose reversal shot) to users and those around them hasn’t had a noticeable impact on deaths.

Problem is the half of the deaths involved methadone (more than involved heroin) which is legal, even more were from benzos. Scottish government austerity slashed the drug funding in 2017 and from 2018 the deaths have went up 12%!

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/drug-related-deaths/21/drug-related-deaths-21-report.pdf

Link above is a breakdown per area and age group. As expected the west is worse affected. The only positive I can see from the figures is that the younger age groups have much lower figures and aren’t rising which suggest that the young generations don’t have quite as large a problem with deadly drugs as the older ones which bodes well for the long term. It’s the 35 year old plus bracket that is continuing to skyrocket.

Then again there are probably a lot of variables involved and it’s possible that addicts just become more complacent with age or more dependent resulting in more consumption and therefore a higher risk of overdose, and likely other factors i haven’t considered. It would also make sense that older people just can’t put the same stress on their body’s as the youth.

In relation to the recently released figures it’s disappointing that the push to distribute free Naloxone (opioid overdose reversal shot) to users and those around them hasn’t had a noticeable impact on deaths.

One of those factors will be that the body can only sustain constant drug abuse for so many years and what we're seeing now has its roots in an other era.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is there any explanation as to why our figures are so much worse. The roughest places in England dwarf those in Scotland IMO and on every occasion that I have spent time in England it has seemed to be completely rife with cocaine and other powders on a level I’ve never seen anywhere in Scotland.

Is it just that they draw the line at Opiods and Benzodiazepines?

There is a clear link between poverty and drug use yet our poverty level as are lower than the rest of the UK.

Poverty in Scotland was worse back when most of those dying now developed their habit. The fact that many of these deaths are in a higher age group in Scotland probably means the deaths now have been a long time coming. It wouldn't surprise me if the other areas you mention have similar problems further down the line.

[Stairway 2 7]

Poverty in Scotland was worse back when most of those dying now developed their habit. The fact that many of these deaths are in a higher age group in Scotland probably means the deaths now have been a long time coming. It wouldn't surprise me if the other areas you mention have similar problems further down the line.

That era affected Liverpool and Edinburgh but its not effecting them now the same way. The only two differences I've seen given from Scotland and ruk is spending cuts and the two charities saying people are taking up cheap benzos because minimum pricing. Every thing else I've seen as a reason can apply to areas in England

[Ozyhibby]

That era affected Liverpool and Edinburgh but its not effecting them now the same way. The only two differences I've seen given from Scotland and ruk is spending cuts and the two charities saying people are taking up cheap benzos because minimum pricing. Every thing else I've seen as a reason can apply to areas in England

I would say the height of Edinburgh’s drug problem pre-dates the age of the people dying now? The ones dying now are in their forties and early 50’s?


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[Stairway 2 7]

I would say the height of Edinburgh’s drug problem pre-dates the age of the people dying now? The ones dying now are in their forties and early 50’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The places with poverty in the last 30 years in England like north east north west aren't having a fraction of Scotlands numbers. It won't be that

[Ozyhibby]

The places with poverty in the last 30 years in England like north east north west aren't having a fraction of Scotlands numbers. It won't be that

I think we are saying the same thing. I don’t think it’s a hangover from trainspotting generation. Those people would be in their 60’s by now.
Edinburgh’s figures are much better than Glasgow’s just now which doesn’t make much sense. They are probably still higher than England though.
There was a report on the news tonight about the problem in England and you can see that they are heading in a similar direction. It’s madness that we allow these people who need medical help to self-medicate with illegal drugs. They need to be prescribed what they need while being offered help to reduce their dependency.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think we are saying the same thing. I don’t think it’s a hangover from trainspotting generation. Those people would be in their 60’s by now.
Edinburgh’s figures are much better than Glasgow’s just now which doesn’t make much sense. They are probably still higher than England though.
There was a report on the news tonight about the problem in England and you can see that they are heading in a similar direction. It’s madness that we allow these people who need medical help to self-medicate with illegal drugs. They need to be prescribed what they need while being offered help to reduce their dependency.


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I read something saying its how we treat addicts socially that's the problem not the prohibition. More than half the deaths involved legal methadone. People can get clean in prison then get sent to hostels filled with drugs, funding for counselling has been decreased massively too.

[Stairway 2 7]

Darren McGarveys take again

Re-plumb the drug sector otherwise whatever money is poured in will just flow to same practices currently converging to produce failure. This is not about individuals, its about over reliance on old ideas, professional pride and systems that were never fit in the first place.
Half of all deaths involved methadone - a drug that is supposed to reduce risk of relapse and death.

Even more involved street benzos - demand for which exploded when safe prescribing was restricted over a decade ago.

Both instances arise out of the same orthodoxy.

Add in funding cuts from 2017, increasing poverty, and a culture where addiction is seen as a choice and you have all the necessary ingredients for a drug death crisis.
When you draw attention to fact methadone is involved in more deaths than heroin or codeine you are accused of stigmatising people on it. When root of stigma is the lack of provision of psychosocial support to which scientific literature points as essential in its effectiveness.
Thus, methadone has become synonymous with relapse, death, rather than the lifeline it is/can be. Without the emotional/psychological support, the addiction can simply resurface, and it's when ppl use other drugs on top, they are at greater risk.
Recently someone in drug sector was disciplined for booking me to speak at an event. I am 'dangerous' apparently. Someone who has been more or less drug/alcohol free for 10 years. Orgs making staff do risk assessments if I am invited to share my thoughts/experiences.

Wtf?
What management fear is that they are beginning to lose the dressing room because those of us with proximity to this are armed with certain facts about ourselves and our condition. Facts which become self evident every day we remain free from substances.
Ive had relapses. I'm no recovery guru. This illness is so mysterious I've found myself succumbing to it despite possessing a firm intellectual grasp of every side of it. Addiction is about more than taking/not taking drugs. Its about unlearning a lot of who you thought you were.
And then even when you unlearn all that, you can slowly slip back into it if you become disconnected from community support, and the truth of what you suffer from. I remember one night waiting with a boy to get him into an ambulance because he was in a bad way...
...12 hours later I was in one choking on my own vomit. That is a level of denial that requires daily work to smash and keep at bay. This medical model only works up to a point. A senior doctor once compared methadone to his inhaler, completely unaware of the obvious absurdity...

inhalers are not implicated in preventable deaths. They don't create a physical dissociation from your own body. They are not addictive. They don't mask symptoms of other serious physical problems. And you don't need to visit chemist every 24hours to get them 😂
Also, if any staff anywhere experience any professional reprisals for what I said earlier in this thread then my response will be of a nature that no public relations/comms person is qualified to cope with.
At UK level, we have legislation which views addiction as a çriminal justice issue, and this has been contested among medical experts for over a century. Misuse of drugs act is political theatre and has no correlation with reality. It must be reformed.
That's obviously difficult tho because public has been fed medieval myths about addiction as a moral failing of the individual. So political leaders have to play to that mass misunderstanding to demonstrate their seriousness - hilarious
People with substance abuse problems require additional legal protection, not unlike those who live with disabilities. Such legislation has been in development, tho unsurprisingly, drug sector and scotgov have run a mile because it means ACTUAL LEGAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
A Right to Treatment Bill If passed would create a new legal environment. Services would emerge to advocate for people on a legal basis, as well as educate everyone as to their rights with respect to treatment. I have no idea why ScotGov has not jumped on this.
Not least as it would make for a great announcement - a scot gov speciality. Even less idea why Labour is dithering around it, given the serious nature of the crisis and its desire to be credible opposition.
This thread I dedicate to the memory of all the people I knew who lost their lives. Fiona, Sash, James, Hannah, John, Reese and so many more. These are people who were all trying to get well. Who had spells of sobriety. And most of them were in their 30s/40s.
One day you see them. Next week you hear they are dead.

[He's here!]

It's a competition is it?

They're both bad.

Not unreasonable though for the BBC to point out that Scotland's figures are almost five times worse?

We might not like the moniker drugs capital of Europe but there's no sense in trying to downplay it.

[Zambernardi1875]

Not unreasonable though for the BBC to point out that Scotland's figures are almost five times worse?

We might not like the moniker drugs capital of Europe but there's no sense in trying to downplay it.

It’s easy to point fingers when drugs isn’t devolved

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s easy to point fingers when drugs isn’t devolved

Once again they don't have these deaths in Northern Ireland, Wales or England with the same laws. What happened in 2018 until now for deaths to fly up from an already high place. One thing we cut the spending on drug treatment by 50 million, that was devolved

[He's here!]

Once again they don't have these deaths in Northern Ireland, Wales or England with the same laws. What happened in 2018 until now for deaths to fly up from an already high place. One thing we cut the spending on drug treatment by 50 million, that was devolved

I realised last week that you don't need to explain that several times to that particular poster. He/she either pretends not to understand or genuinely doesn't.

[Zambernardi1875]

Once again they don't have these deaths in Northern Ireland, Wales or England with the same laws. What happened in 2018 until now for deaths to fly up from an already high place. One thing we cut the spending on drug treatment by 50 million, that was devolved

did scotland cut 50m from drugs because we get a set amount each year from another country to spend so have to cut our cloth accordingly.?

i know a lot of the good work over the years by the SG around homelessness and drugs in rehousing and treatment enticed people from other uk nations to come here

youve then got decades of underfunding in a wide range of areas by westminster to scotland and you have the perfect recipe for young people with no job or social opportunities that turn to drink and drugs.

[Stairway 2 7]

did scotland cut 50m from drugs because we get a set amount each year from another country to spend so have to cut our cloth accordingly.?

i know a lot of the good work over the years by the SG around homelessness and drugs in rehousing and treatment enticed people from other uk nations to come here

youve then got decades of underfunding in a wide range of areas by westminster to scotland and you have the perfect recipe for young people with no job or social opportunities that turn to drink and drugs.

Of course we chose what to spend the money on, scot gov chose to cut drug funding and deaths rose. There is poverty and lack of social opportunities in the ruk too so that one doesn't work

[Zambernardi1875]

Of course we chose what to spend the money on, scot gov chose to cut drug funding and deaths rose. There is poverty and lack of social opportunities in the ruk too so that one doesn't work

but scotland is tied into have a set amount to spend. that 50mil would have went on something else that in turn would have been underfunded with problems which would be the subject to bash the SG with in another thread no doubt, you need to look at the bigger picture. we cant like other countries spend millions on everything

[Stairway 2 7]

but scotland is tied into have a set amount to spend. that 50mil would have went on something else that in turn would have been underfunded with problems which would be the subject to bash the SG with in another thread no doubt, you need to look at the bigger picture. we cant like other countries spend millions on everything
That's not how a budget works other countries work within one and don't just find money trees. If we rightly praise Scottish government for good choices like free prescription and university. We need to when they cause the death of our most vulnerable.

[grunt]

We need to when they cause the death of our most vulnerable.Really?

[Stairway 2 7]

Really?

Contribute, most obvious difference I can see from England. Poverty, laws ect are universal

[grunt]

Contribute, most obvious difference I can see from England. Poverty, laws ect are universalSo the SG don't actually cause these deaths?

[Stairway 2 7]

So the SG don't actually cause these deaths?

Well they do or do you say the poor people without support are the cause.

[He's here!]

Alcohol related deaths in Scotland hit highest level since 2008:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62420602

[Zambernardi1875]

Alcohol related deaths in Scotland hit highest level since 2008:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62420602

What’s the reasons for this and what is you’re solution ?

[Moulin Yarns]

That's not how a budget works other countries work within one and don't just find money trees. If we rightly praise Scottish government for good choices like free prescription and university. We need to when they cause the death of our most vulnerable.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance

Look, a money tree!


Every country, well, almost every country, can borrow money, unless you can't. 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

What’s the reasons for this and what is you’re solution ?

I’d say maybe lockdown would have an effect here? Overall, Scotland had been improving on alcohol related issues. If there has been a rise in England as well then likely it is lockdown and both countries will start improving again.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance

Look, a money tree!


Every country, well, almost every country, can borrow money, unless you can't. 🙄

Constantly borrowing isn't the answer and in this case isn't an option. Like or or don't 55% chose to keep this status quo unfortunately. So you have to use the budget best you can, you have a responsibility to. If one is going to cost lives I'd say that isn't the best option. I'd say spending millions on having leaflets and signs in gaelic could be done once we can borrow, hardly anyone only speaks it and not English. Drug support is far more important

[Berwickhibby]

Constantly borrowing isn't the answer and in this case isn't an option. Like or or don't 55% chose to keep this status quo unfortunately. So you have to use the budget best you can, you have a responsibility to. If one is going to cost lives I'd say that isn't the best option. I'd say spending millions on having leaflets and signs in gaelic could be done once we can borrow, hardly anyone only speaks it and not English. Drug support is far more important

Don’t forget the millions spent on useless offices abroad which serve no purpose… money should be spent on Drug and welfare support

[Zambernardi1875]

So no offices abroad and no Gaelic signs and Scotland would have lower drugs deaths. Simple

[Berwickhibby]

So no offices abroad and no Gaelic signs and Scotland would have lower drugs deaths. Simple

Probably lower if there was more money available…. which leads to more staff and more services…. But just my opinion

[Paul1642]

Alcohol related deaths in Scotland hit highest level since 2008:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62420602

Think this negates the argument that minimum pricing is having an effect on drug deaths.

[Berwickhibby]

Think this negates the argument that minimum pricing is having an effect on drug deaths.

You cannot be saying that Paul1642…. Stand by for your opinion being challenged as it does not fit the current SNP spin on minimum pricing

[Paul1642]

You cannot be saying that Paul1642…. Stand by for your opinion being challenged as it does not fit the current SNP spin on minimum pricing

It’s not intended to be a political point in any way. It was more a response to others saying that minimum pricing may have turned those who would previously drink cheep booze to cheap drugs instead.

For me that should have seen alcohol deaths drop, not rise. Possibly an unfair comparison though seeing as alcohol deaths are more likely to be gradual and dirt deaths more immediate.

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s not intended to be a political point in any way. It was more a response to others saying that minimum pricing may have turned those who would previously drink cheep booze to cheap drugs instead.

For me that should have seen alcohol deaths drop, not rise. Possibly an unfair comparison though seeing as alcohol deaths are more likely to be gradual and dirt deaths more immediate.

Given that the MUP was always meant to be a longer term project, it's probably not surprising that there's little.effect on deaths. Like you say, the likelihood is that many of these deaths are related to long-term conditions.

[Stairway 2 7]

Drink like drug deaths is all about the support. People will use if the want to easily, its getting them to stop them supporting them when they do. Scotlands level of drinking isn't that unusual compared to the rest of Europe. The only thing unusual really is the drug deaths

[He's here!]

Think this negates the argument that minimum pricing is having an effect on drug deaths.

And also seems to negate the argument that MUP is having an effect on alcohol-related deaths - at least at present. Covid has played its part on people's drinking habits, with regular/heavy drinkers tending to buy/drink more.

[skankomcphee]

Given the amount of self flagellation over drugs deaths in Scotland at present, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking every pavement is primed with loaded syringes, ready to inject the passive passerby and result in death. It’s quite remarkable the extent to which self determination by any drug user is entirely absent from the narrative.

[Ozyhibby]

Given the amount of self flagellation over drugs deaths in Scotland at present, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking every pavement is primed with loaded syringes, ready to inject the passive passerby and result in death. It’s quite remarkable the extent to which self determination by any drug user is entirely absent from the narrative.

Invisibility of these people is half the problem. And I don’t think choice comes into it for these addicts. That has long since passed. They need help and understanding.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Given the amount of self flagellation over drugs deaths in Scotland at present, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking every pavement is primed with loaded syringes, ready to inject the passive passerby and result in death. It’s quite remarkable the extent to which self determination by any drug user is entirely absent from the narrative.

Probably because that's the thinking of another century when people were clueless and knew nothing about addiction.

[grunt]

Interesting discussion on BBC Radio4 about Scotland's drugs problem.
Seemingly sensible people calmly discussing stuff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0019rd2

[LewysGot2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62420602

Just looking at the possibility that drugs may be replacing drink as the addictive health wrecker of choice, sadly, our alcohol related deaths are this highest since 2008. Age of those dying suggest possible long term health issues or addiction at play.

[Stairway 2 7]

Ann-Marie ward is the Head of favor drug charity and is an snp supporter had had to walk out a government drugs meeting.

https://tfn.scot/news/bullst-charity-chief-executive-walks-out-of-drug-deaths-meeting-with-holyrood-civil-servants?utm_campaign=Oktopost-2022-08+General+Campaign&utm_content=Oktopost-twitter-&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

And another article on the subject
https://mobile.twitter.com/Wass2020/status/1555078433075601408
people addicted to drugs need treatment to stop taking drugs, not a space to take their drugs out of sight. It’s like putting a defibrillator on a wall, but not reducing heart disease. There is a solution to death by drugs, stop taking drugs.

[Killiehibbie]

Given the amount of self flagellation over drugs deaths in Scotland at present, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking every pavement is primed with loaded syringes, ready to inject the passive passerby and result in death. It’s quite remarkable the extent to which self determination by any drug user is entirely absent from the narrative.

I knew too many people that that didn't consciously make the choice to become addicts.

[Paul1642]

I knew too many people that that didn't consciously make the choice to become addicts.

I complete appreciate that there can be a million factors at play and I’m certainly not trying to judge anybody but ultimately we could invest all the money in the world in rehab facilities, but if a user doesn’t want to stop using then they won’t stop regardless. We all have free will.

[Ozyhibby]

I complete appreciate that there can be a million factors at play and I’m certainly not trying to judge anybody but ultimately we could invest all the money in the world in rehab facilities, but if a user doesn’t want to stop using then they won’t stop regardless. We all have free will.

I would argue that there are not many addicts out there who don’t want to stop. Sometime they just need the tools for the job.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I complete appreciate that there can be a million factors at play and I’m certainly not trying to judge anybody but ultimately we could invest all the money in the world in rehab facilities, but if a user doesn’t want to stop using then they won’t stop regardless. We all have free will.

That is completely wrong. With support and the right tools they can stop. Most countries population has access to hard drugs but each have different outcomes.

[CropleyWasGod]

I complete appreciate that there can be a million factors at play and I’m certainly not trying to judge anybody but ultimately we could invest all the money in the world in rehab facilities, but if a user doesn’t want to stop using then they won’t stop regardless. We all have free will.
That's where harm reduction comes in. Supporting a user until they are ready to come off.

[Stairway 2 7]

Seems Scotland drug death problem is more of a bonzo death problem. That's where the majority of the deaths are from and the rise comes from there. Its available everywhere in the UK but Scotland is the only place with these deaths

https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator/status/1556610230200532992

[Ozyhibby]

Seems Scotland drug death problem is more of a bonzo death problem. That's where the majority of the deaths are from and the rise comes from there. Its available everywhere in the UK but Scotland is the only place with these deaths

https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator/status/1556610230200532992

Maybe dealers in Scotland using different mixing agents?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1557086306341195776?s=21&t=gQcG679nkGR7u2c***ymLg

That’s the spirit Rishi.[emoji849][emoji35]


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[SChibs]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1557086306341195776?s=21&t=gQcG679nkGR7u2c***ymLg

That’s the spirit Rishi.[emoji849][emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If he's serious then they could prosecute have the current MP's. Or is it just the poorer drug users in society he plans to target?

[JeMeSouviens]

If he's serious then they could prosecute have the current MP's. Or is it just the poorer drug users in society he plans to target?

https://twitter.com/CountBinface/status/1557133862890774529

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/08/war-on-drugs-legalisation-uk-government-labour-conservative


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/08/war-on-drugs-legalisation-uk-government-labour-conservative


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Anne McLaughlin asked for a mini pilot to be started on consumption rooms again yesterday. Patel, on her last day in office declined again.

We keep trying. They keep saying no.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hope we go the same way

DW News
@dwnews
·
13m
BREAKING: Joe Biden pardons anyone convicted of marijuana possession


Oliver Barnes
@mroliverbarnes...

Pres Biden is asking HHS Secretary and Attorney General "to initiate the administrative process to review expeditiously how marijuana is scheduled under federal law". If that results in descheduling cannabis, that's huge!

[SChibs]

Hope we go the same way

DW News
@dwnews
·
13m
BREAKING: Joe Biden pardons anyone convicted of marijuana possession


Oliver Barnes
@mroliverbarnes...

Pres Biden is asking HHS Secretary and Attorney General "to initiate the administrative process to review expeditiously how marijuana is scheduled under federal law". If that results in descheduling cannabis, that's huge!

The last I seen is they want to reclassify it from class B to class A, madness

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/20/england-police-decriminalise-hard-drugs-home-office?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671517613

Some sense coming into the debate.


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[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/20/england-police-decriminalise-hard-drugs-home-office?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671517613

Some sense coming into the debate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"What is beyond argument is that pretending that a modern state, however authoritarian, can stamp out any or all forms of narcotic consumption is futile. It has failed. It is a dead policy."

Cue this govt ignoring anyone with any experience and doubling down on this failed policy.

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[speedy_gonzales]

Copied from the NHS thread as it's probably more prominent here;

For those that are interested I'd highly recommend getting a Naloxone kit.
They're completely free to anyone over 16. There is hands on training (15 minutes) available from Crew.scot or if you're comfortable with it, there's eLearning available from various Scottish sites (Google Naloxone Scotland).
It's a small spray that fits comfortably in your pocket.
I opted to get one as I've witnessed opiate overdoses in the past through my work (railway stations mainly) and ignoring the how's and why's over those that consume drugs, this small miracle can buy someone 30 minutes before the emergency services arrive.
Being regularly trained in First Aid, I think this is a no-brainer for the average punter to carry on them.

[Santa Cruz]

Copied from the NHS thread as it's probably more prominent here;

For those that are interested I'd highly recommend getting a Naloxone kit.
They're completely free to anyone over 16. There is hands on training (15 minutes) available from Crew.scot or if you're comfortable with it, there's eLearning available from various Scottish sites (Google Naloxone Scotland).
It's a small spray that fits comfortably in your pocket.
I opted to get one as I've witnessed opiate overdoses in the past through my work (railway stations mainly) and ignoring the how's and why's over those that consume drugs, this small miracle can buy someone 30 minutes before the emergency services arrive.
Being regularly trained in First Aid, I think this is a no-brainer for the average punter to carry on them.

and again, link here.

https://www.sfad.org.uk/support-services/take-home-naloxone

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-65557178?at_medium=social&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_id=815F83C2-F008-11ED-A04E-2093ECABB293&at_campaign_type=owned&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_format=link&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_ptr_name=twitter


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/chrisgreennews/status/1677260055127773189?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Not seen the detail yet but great news if true. It’s a start.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/decriminalise-drugs-for-personal-use-scottish-government-urges-uk

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[neil7908]

https://twitter.com/chrisgreennews/status/1677260055127773189?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Not seen the detail yet but great news if true. It’s a start.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/decriminalise-drugs-for-personal-use-scottish-government-urges-uk

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Agreed. Still a long way to go but the right step.

I'd be interested to see if a future Labour Government had any interest in engaging on these issues in a meaningful way rather than continuing the status quo. Given how many countries around the world are embracing cannabis reform, I've always found it bizarre that this is not a topic of real discussion in the UK.

Absolutely crying out for change.

[grunt]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/caring-compassionate-human-rights-informed-drug-policy-scotland/

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/chrisgreennews/status/1677260055127773189?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Not seen the detail yet but great news if true. It’s a start.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/decriminalise-drugs-for-personal-use-scottish-government-urges-uk

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What's the point, isn't this a reserved matter?

[Ozyhibby]

What's the point, isn't this a reserved matter?

They have asked for this specific power to be devolved. There is no real reason for keeping it reserved.


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[Ozyhibby]

Agreed. Still a long way to go but the right step.

I'd be interested to see if a future Labour Government had any interest in engaging on these issues in a meaningful way rather than continuing the status quo. Given how many countries around the world are embracing cannabis reform, I've always found it bizarre that this is not a topic of real discussion in the UK.

Absolutely crying out for change.

Would be great if Labour could show some support for devolving this power?


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[neil7908]

Would be great if Labour could show some support for devolving this power?


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I'd love to see Labour tackle this on a UK level. Even some movement in the right direction would be good.

It just frustrates me to look around the world and seeing many countries show an appetite to acknowledge the total failure that war on drugs has become, only to see absolute silence in the UK.

The status quo simply cannot hold. Far too many countries have gone down the liberalisation route for it to be ignored.

But yes, if they won't touch it at national level, then let Scotland tackle this issue with devolved powers. We need some action to be taken.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd love to see Labour tackle this on a UK level. Even some movement in the right direction would be good.

It just frustrates me to look around the world and seeing many countries show an appetite to acknowledge the total failure that war on drugs has become, only to see absolute silence in the UK.

The status quo simply cannot hold. Far too many countries have gone down the liberalisation route for it to be ignored.

But yes, if they won't touch it at national level, then let Scotland tackle this issue with devolved powers. We need some action to be taken.

It’s a perfectly reasonable request to devolve powers. I can’t see why it won’t be supported?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/labourmercedes/status/1677278037975465984?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Support from a Labour MSP.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230707/0229549d1e10f1183199119258753231.jpg


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[Since90+2]

Starmer won't go near it.

He's more concerned with keeping the recently deplaced angry Brexit voters on side to care about looking at something that might actually help people.

[Smartie]

Starmer won't go near it.

He's more concerned with keeping the recently deplaced angry Brexit voters on side to care about looking at something that might actually help people.

Interesting to see him say he favours a "tough stance" rather than a variation on the famous Labour abstention though.

[Mibbes Aye]

Starmer won't go near it.

He's more concerned with keeping the recently deplaced angry Brexit voters on side to care about looking at something that might actually help people.

He was asked about this specifically when he was in Scotland around six weeks ago.

He said he would respect the decision of the Scottish Parliament if it backed the introduction of safe consumption rooms.

But yeah, he won’t go near the subject :rolleyes:

[Mon Dieu4]

Nice to see them trying to do something different even though there is zero chance the UK government will allow it, could we just tell Police Scotland not to bother arresting low level drug users and possession as a workaround or does that need approval from our parents as well?

[Since90+2]

Interesting to see him say he favours a "tough stance" rather than a variation on the famous Labour abstention though.

Yip.