Drug deaths in Scotland highest in EU

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Of course the collation of the stats for drug related deaths don't actually mean that drugs were the cause of death just that the deceased was a drugs user . Not sure how many other countries use this metric too.

[James310]

https://theferret.scot/scotlands-drug-related-deaths-comparable/

[Cataplana]

Of course the collation of the stats for drug related deaths don't actually mean that drugs were the cause of death just that the deceased was a drugs user . Not sure how many other countries use this metric too.

it's rather like smoking related deaths. Go to the hospital with a broken leg, and they ask if you smoke, once that is recorded any condition you develop goes down as smoking related.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/why-scotland-can-ill-afford-to-ignore-portugal-s-ground-breaking-war-on-drugs-1-5022651/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Ozyhibby]

https://stv.tv/amp/1441568-snp-conference-members-back-decriminalisation-of-drugs/?__twitter_impression=true


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[wpj]

it's rather like smoking related deaths. Go to the hospital with a broken leg, and they ask if you smoke, once that is recorded any condition you develop goes down as smoking related.

Evidence? I do not believe this, no offence but I am curious

[Rocky]

Evidence? I do not believe this, no offence but I am curious

With the greatest of respect to the quoted poster I've noticed he does rather have a tendency to quote unsubstantiated positions that seem to stem directly from Facebook memes. Then comes on here and is corrected, and to be fair does engage positively in those discussions. My worry is that there are millions of other people who live in Twitter and Facebook echo chambers and just propogate and escalate the posts they read.

[Scouse Hibee]

it's rather like smoking related deaths. Go to the hospital with a broken leg, and they ask if you smoke, once that is recorded any condition you develop goes down as smoking related.

Reminds of the time I went to my GP years ago, had a real bad cough, high temperature and felt crap. When I got to see him a coughing fit started, once it passed he asked how many I smoked a day. I replied that I didn’t smoke and never had smoked in my life, he slammed his pen down and told me sternly that if I was going to waste his time by lying about my smoking why should he bother to treat me. I think my enraged response convinced him I was being truthful, got my prescription and told him I would never see him again.

[Cataplana]

Evidence? I do not believe this, no offence but I am curious

No offence taken, quite happy to be challenged and improve my knowledge through discussion.

No evidence, other than a close examination of the figures supplied for drug related deaths this year. For example, a planned suicide, involving drugs, is classed as a drugs related death, it may be the first time the person had taken drugs in their life.

Likewise, a death from Hep C will be classed as drugs related, even if the person has not touched drugs for 40 years.

Edit (having gotten off my arse, I tracked this down: the key information for definition of drug related deaths can be found here: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/drug-related-deaths/2018/drug-related-deaths-18-pub.pdf

I think this is quite a telling statement. "The definition of drug related deaths is not straightforward."

Read down and you come across this catch all section (Section A2, b), which widens the net greatly.

Likewise, with smoking, we find: "Themethod used for calculating smoking attributable deaths is consistentwith the method used by Public Health England. In the absence ofdirect information on individual smoking histories, a proxy measureis used to calculate the proportion of deaths which are due tosmoking. Only deaths for those Scottish residents aged 35 years andolder are included, as the likelihood of younger individuals dyingfrom smoking is low. "

https://www.scotpho.org.uk/behaviour/tobacco-use/data/smoking-attributable-deaths/ (https://www.scotpho.org.uk/behaviour/tobacco-use/data/smoking-attributable-deaths/)

Now coming back to drugs, and the use of approved drug taking rooms in particular. Using drug related deaths alone to justify this is not an evidence based approach, as not every one of those deaths could have been prevented by the introduction of these "clinics".

Anecdotaly I see great benefits from approved rooms, and de criminalisation. What concerns me is that the same headline will be thrown at us again next year, politicians shedding crocodile tears.

[fjosoo]

Getting to root of why so many people in Scotland feel the need to take drugs would be a good start

[Ozyhibby]

Getting to root of why so many people in Scotland feel the need to take drugs would be a good start

It’s not just Scotland. People like getting ******** up. Happens everywhere. Managing it and helping people stop is the way to go.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/health/scotland-s-first-addictions-service-will-treat-patients-with-heroin-in-glasgow-city-centre-1-5052709/amp?__twitter_impression=true
Positive steps.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/drug-deaths-soar-but-public-health-emergency-rejected?top&amp&top=&__twitter_impression=true

Uk govt prevents Scotland taking the action it needs to save lives.


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[Mon Dieu4]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/drug-deaths-soar-but-public-health-emergency-rejected?top&amp&top=&__twitter_impression=true

Uk govt prevents Scotland taking the action it needs to save lives.


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The reasons keep on stacking up, hope undecided or borderline No voters are taking note

[Mibbes Aye]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/drug-deaths-soar-but-public-health-emergency-rejected?top&amp&top=&__twitter_impression=true

Uk govt prevents Scotland taking the action it needs to save lives.


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It is a complex issue but I agree wholeheartedly that the primary focus on usage has to be that this is a public health issue not a criminal one.

Unfortunately supply is a criminal issue, not a public health issue. And demand sits somewhere between the two.

[lord bunberry]

It is a complex issue but I agree wholeheartedly that the primary focus on usage has to be that this is a public health issue not a criminal one.

Unfortunately supply is a criminal issue, not a public health issue. And demand sits somewhere between the two.
Would legalising all drugs take away the criminal supply issue?

[Mibbes Aye]

Would legalising all drugs take away the criminal supply issue?

I've always thought that is an interesting point.

I suspect the evidence says no though.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've always thought that is an interesting point.

I suspect the evidence says no though.

I think the evidence from Portugal is that decriminalisation (not quite the same thing as legalisation to be fair) has been a success.

It's a tough political sell though.


https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

[Ozyhibby]

I guess if the govt were giving medical grade heroin to users at clinics, there would be little point in supplying illegal heroin? And with no illegal heroine available there would be less new users? Is that too simplistic?


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[Mon Dieu4]

I think the evidence from Portugal is that decriminalisation (not quite the same thing as legalisation to be fair) has been a success.

It's a tough political sell though.


https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

Switzerland seem to have a good system on the go as well, they went down the public health route for purely pragmatic reasons, it's cheaper to treat it as public health than have an all out war on drugs

[Mibbes Aye]

There is a massive presumption when ‘safe’ clinics or ‘safe’ injecting rooms are mentioned, that users will actually travel to them and use them.

Any evidence to back this up?

[Ozyhibby]

There is a massive presumption when ‘safe’ clinics or ‘safe’ injecting rooms are mentioned, that users will actually travel to them and use them.

Any evidence to back this up?

Depends how numerous they are I suppose. If they had one alongside every doctors surgery then I think they would. If your an addict then surely you would go and get free medical grade heroin at the clinic rather than try by rubbish on the now almost redundant black market?


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[Ozyhibby]

Switzerland seem to have a good system on the go as well, they went down the public health route for purely pragmatic reasons, it's cheaper to treat it as public health than have an all out war on drugs

I think it’s interesting that you never here of countries going back to prohibition once they start dealing with it as a public health issue.
And a great side affect is it deprives organised crime of its number 1 source of income.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Depends how numerous they are I suppose. If they had one alongside every doctors surgery then I think they would. If your an addict then surely you would go and get free medical grade heroin at the clinic rather than try by rubbish on the now almost redundant black market?


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I actually agree with the principle but aligning and staffing alongside every GP surgery in a safe way would require a massive increase in spending. The funding requirement is beyond what could be resourced.

Maybe too cynical but find me an elected politician who is going to promote this, not just in the time of Covid but when public opinion tends to favour funding towards dementia, and cancer especially

[Mon Dieu4]

I actually agree with the principle but aligning and staffing alongside every GP surgery in a safe way would require a massive increase in spending. The funding requirement is beyond what could be resourced.

Maybe too cynical but find me an elected politician who is going to promote this, not just in the time of Covid but when public opinion tends to favour funding towards dementia, and cancer especially

The premise is that the funding would be covered by less people in prison, police able to concentrate on other things etc, my example of Switzerland is a good one, the only reason they have done it is that it costs less and not because of some ideal of helping people out

[Ozyhibby]

I actually agree with the principle but aligning and staffing alongside every GP surgery in a safe way would require a massive increase in spending. The funding requirement is beyond what could be resourced.

Maybe too cynical but find me an elected politician who is going to promote this, not just in the time of Covid but when public opinion tends to favour funding towards dementia, and cancer especially

I could find you loads of retired ones. As well as retired police, judges etc. It is a policy that requires bravery.
As far as money goes, surely there will be savings from the demise of the black market and the criminality that goes along with that? The savings on prison terms alone would amount to a fair few quid.


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[Mibbes Aye]

The premise is that the funding would be covered by less people in prison, police able to concentrate on other things etc, my example of Switzerland is a good one, the only reason they have done it is that it costs less and not because of some ideal of helping people out


I could find you loads of retired ones. As well as retired police, judges etc. It is a policy that requires bravery.
As far as money goes, surely there will be savings from the demise of the black market and the criminality that goes along with that? The savings on prison terms alone would amount to a fair few quid.


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Ypu are both more optimistic than me about how the market, demand, supply, resource, policy and intent shifts.

With you both, in principle, though.

[CropleyWasGod]

I actually agree with the principle but aligning and staffing alongside every GP surgery in a safe way would require a massive increase in spending. The funding requirement is beyond what could be resourced.

Maybe too cynical but find me an elected politician who is going to promote this, not just in the time of Covid but when public opinion tends to favour funding towards dementia, and cancer especially

Ronnie Cowan is pro decrim.

[Kato]

Whatever the solution is it's not the current one. "The War On Drugs" was hysteria to begin with but has hardened into a long hard slog with no winners other than those who have made millions upon millions due to the criminalisation of something which cannot be policed.

[CropleyWasGod]

There is a massive presumption when ‘safe’ clinics or ‘safe’ injecting rooms are mentioned, that users will actually travel to them and use them.

Any evidence to back this up?

The Commons Committee who made the recommendations to the Government had a lot of evidence, both from lived experience and international sources

[Mibbes Aye]

The Commons Committee who made the recommendations to the Government had a lot of evidence, both from lived experience and international sources

Which said what?

Was it contextual to the scale of usage?

[Mibbes Aye]

Ronnie Cowan is pro decrim.

I don't know much about him but my understanding is that he has progressive views.

[Killiehibbie]

Whatever the solution is it's not the current one. "The War On Drugs" was hysteria to begin with but has hardened into a long hard slog with no winners other than those who have made millions upon millions due to the criminalisation of something which cannot be policed.

The so called war on drugs has always been a lie.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/index.html#1

[CropleyWasGod]

Which said what?

Was it contextual to the scale of usage?

I don't know. I was just pointing you in the direction of the evidence, which is what I thought you were asking.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't know. I was just pointing you in the direction of the evidence, which is what I thought you were asking.

Ah, I like this. It is like “All the President’s Men” :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Ah, I like this. It is like “All the President’s Men” :-)

Did you just Deep Throat me?

[Mibbes Aye]

Did you just Deep Throat me?

The parking lot, you know the spot.

If I am carrying a copy of the Washington Post under my left arm then we are good.

If it is under my right arm then turn and walk away, don’t look back.

Make your way to Hamburg and the docks and ask for Sven. Tell him you want to go to Gdańsk. He will make sure he gets you to Tangiers.

We will meet up there :agree:

[Keith_M]

The parking lot, you know the spot.

If I am carrying a copy of the Washington Post under my left arm then we are good.

If it is under my right arm then turn and walk away, don’t look back.

Make your way to Hamburg and the docks and ask for Sven. Tell him you want to go to Gdańsk. He will make sure he gets you to Tangiers.

We will meet up there :agree:


Do not, under any circumstances, approach anyone in the docks at Hamburg called Sven.

Personal bad experience. Don't ask.

:paranoid:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotland-slammed-after-blocking-22679812.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Not sure if it’s Scottish Govt who are responsible for this but they need to get it sorted.


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[GreenNWhiteArmy]

There's some fantastic discussion on here RE decriminilisation of drugs and/or providing safe environments

Sorry to hijack, but that's a topic i'm hoping to discuss in my podcast - if you'd be interested in joining me please either reply or send me a DM. Happy to facilitate a for/against type forum if there's interest

[Pretty Boy]

This is quite an interesting video about mephedrone and how it changed the way drugs were sold. It also looks at the myth that the 'war in drugs' can ever be won. Drugs are like any other market, those selling them will adapt to the climate of the day.

https://youtu.be/cvxZyMyc7go

I remember when M-cat was all the rage. It was everywhere for a while and it was absolutely mental stuff.

[lord bunberry]

This is quite an interesting video about mephedrone and how it changed the way drugs were sold. It also looks at the myth that the 'war in drugs' can ever be won. Drugs are like any other market, those selling them will adapt to the climate of the day.

https://youtu.be/cvxZyMyc7go

I remember when M-cat was all the rage. It was everywhere for a while and it was absolutely mental stuff.
I was a regular user of recreational drugs during the legal high era and that stuff you could buy from the shops was like rocket fuel. What I do remember from that time is it forced dealers to provide a far better quality of cocaine to try and encourage people to buy it. I’ve always thought that legalising drugs is the way to go, alcohol and tobacco are far more dangerous than the majority of recreational drugs, but it’s impossible to have a grown up conversation about it in this country due to the hysteria from the press and certain politicians. I do believe it will happen though.

[Sergio sledge]

Here we are again.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55347091

I know a year isn't that long a time to enact policies and make significant changes, but the fact that deaths are still rising is an absolute scandal.

[G B Young]

Here we are again.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55347091

I know a year isn't that long a time to enact policies and make significant changes, but the fact that deaths are still rising is an absolute scandal.

Sturgeon accepts it's an indefensible situation.

What makes it all the more depressing is that we not only have the highest drugs death rate in Europe, but one of the highest in the world.

Why is Scotland so especially blighted by this?

[Moulin Yarns]

Sturgeon accepts it's an indefensible situation.

What makes it all the more depressing is that we not only have the highest drugs death rate in Europe, but one of the highest in the world.

Why is Scotland so especially blighted by this?

Levels of poverty and deprivation.

[CropleyWasGod]

I had a Twitter chat last week with Peter Kry****, the guy who has the safe-consumption van in Glasgow. (the asterisks are pronounced "cant" :rolleyes:)

I thought that, as drugs policy is reserved, Scotland couldn't introduce them unilaterally. However, PK says that they can; that safer-injecting facilities are not covered under the Misuse of Drugs Act. He has been trying for a while to ask Joe Fitzpatrick why the SG haven't introduced them, particularly as they seem to be in favour.

I really do hope that the SG are not playing politics here, and blaming Westminster for something that isn't their fault.

[Ozyhibby]

I had a Twitter chat last week with Peter Kry****, the guy who has the safe-consumption van in Glasgow. (the asterisks are pronounced "cant" :rolleyes:)

I thought that, as drugs policy is reserved, Scotland couldn't introduce them unilaterally. However, PK says that they can; that safer-injecting facilities are not covered under the Misuse of Drugs Act. He has been trying for a while to ask Joe Fitzpatrick why the SG haven't introduced them, particularly as they seem to be in favour.

I really do hope that the SG are not playing politics here, and blaming Westminster for something that isn't their fault.

There is no way the SG could introduce them without a change in the law. Otherwise they would be opening up the chance that public sector workers could be prosecuted. They have asked Westminster to devolve that power but it has been refused.


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[CropleyWasGod]

There is no way the SG could introduce them without a change in the law. Otherwise they would be opening up the chance that public sector workers could be prosecuted. They have asked Westminster to devolve that power but it has been refused.


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Peter K thinks otherwise. That the SG do have that power, in that policing and public health are devolved, hence his van (and similar facilities) aren't covered by the MOD Act. And that is why he is asking Fitzpatrick to meet him.

His upcoming trial could prove interesting.

[Ozyhibby]

Peter K thinks otherwise. That the SG do have that power, in that policing and public health are devolved, hence his van (and similar facilities) aren't covered by the MOD Act. And that is why he is asking Fitzpatrick to meet him.

His upcoming trial could prove interesting.

I think there are plenty charities out there that would be willing to set one up but can’t put their staff in legal jeopardy. Both the SG and UK gov think it’s illegal?


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[Pretty Boy]

Decriminalise, decriminalise and decriminalise again. The 'war on drugs' has failed us for decades.

Time for us to look at things with a fresh pair of eyes, accept that people will always want to take drugs, make that as safe as possible and be there to support those who's drug use is not recreational.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think there are plenty charities out there that would be willing to set one up but can’t put their staff in legal jeopardy. Both the SG and UK gov think it’s illegal?


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...hence why his trial might be a test case.

[Sir David Gray]

Here we are again.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55347091

I know a year isn't that long a time to enact policies and make significant changes, but the fact that deaths are still rising is an absolute scandal.

It is an absolute scandal.

To be fair to Sturgeon she didn't try to make any excuses today but there really aren't any excuses for this. Whilst taking responsibility is admirable, it's urgent action we need not words so hopefully the promise of action is forthcoming. It's not as if the numbers are close either, the numbers in Scotland are so much worse than anywhere else in Europe that it's unreal.

13 years they've had to sort things out and they've actually got a lot worse instead of better. The figures are from 2019 as well, God knows what they'll look like after the year we have had this year.

It's a real stain on this country, shocking.

[G B Young]

Levels of poverty and deprivation.

That can't be the sole reason? Last time I read about it we had a lower poverty rate than England and Wales.

[degenerated]

I had a Twitter chat last week with Peter Kry****, the guy who has the safe-consumption van in Glasgow. (the asterisks are pronounced "cant" :rolleyes:)

I thought that, as drugs policy is reserved, Scotland couldn't introduce them unilaterally. However, PK says that they can; that safer-injecting facilities are not covered under the Misuse of Drugs Act. He has been trying for a while to ask Joe Fitzpatrick why the SG haven't introduced them, particularly as they seem to be in favour.

I really do hope that the SG are not playing politics here, and blaming Westminster for something that isn't their fault.Didn't the UK government say they would look to pursue misuse of drugs charges against anyone involved if it did happen?

Yer man with the van seems to get treated that way too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/24/operator-of-glasgow-safe-drug-use-van-peter-kry****-arrested-and-charged

I also remember reading that the way the numbers are calculated in Scotland means more deaths are attributed to drugs than is the case in other countries, still too many dying though.

Its 50 years since the war on drugs started and it hasn't achieved a thing, time for more radical thinking about how to deal with substance abuse.

Edit* just read that whilst the figures are more complete up here they would still be 3 times that of the rest of uk so the difference are marginal

[Sir David Gray]

That can't be the sole reason? Last time I read about it we had a lower poverty rate than England and Wales.

:agree: It's likely one of the reasons why people died of drug use but it can't be the reason why Scotland's got by far and away the highest rate of drug related deaths in the whole of Europe.

[CropleyWasGod]

Didn't the UK government say they would look to pursue misuse of drugs charges against anyone involved if it did happen?

Yer man with the van seems to get treated that way too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/24/operator-of-glasgow-safe-drug-use-van-peter-kry****-arrested-and-charged

I also remember reading that the way the numbers are calculated in Scotland means more deaths are attributed to drugs than is the case in other countries, still too many dying though.

Its 50 years since the war on drugs started and it hasn't achieved a thing, time for more radical thinking about how to deal with substance abuse.

Thing is, Peter K has (AFAIK) only been charged once, despite the number of times he has been out with the van. Seems to me that there is a reluctance on behalf of the police and SG to hit him too hard. Like I say, his trial may be an opportunity for the law to be clarified.

[Kato]

Its 50 years since the war on drugs started and it hasn't achieved a thing, time for more radical thinking about how to deal with substance abuse.



Depends what it was intended to achieve. If it was to criminalise post-industrial working class people and counter/sub-cultures, job done.

[Kato]

:agree: It's likely one of the reasons why people died of drug use but it can't be the reason why Scotland's got by far and away the highest rate of drug related deaths in the whole of Europe.

Larger dealers dump the worst, most tampered with product onto Scottish users. Cocaine an average 11% pure. Dunno what it is for opiates but would be surprised if there is a sharp difference.

[CropleyWasGod]

Larger dealers dump the worst, most tampered with product onto Scottish users. Cocaine an average 11% pure. Dunno what it is for opiates but would be surprised if there is a sharp difference.

The same for dance drugs. If they don't pass the tests in the Netherlands, they can't be sold there. So they are dumped in the UK.

[degenerated]

Thing is, Peter K has (AFAIK) only been charged once, despite the number of times he has been out with the van. Seems to me that there is a reluctance on behalf of the police and SG to hit him too hard. Like I say, his trial may be an opportunity for the law to be clarified.I hope so because countries with a more mature attitude to drugs have shown that it works.

[degenerated]

Depends what it was intended to achieve. If it was to criminalise post-industrial working class people and counter/sub-cultures, job done.Very true indeed

[Moulin Yarns]

That can't be the sole reason? Last time I read about it we had a lower poverty rate than England and Wales.

OK poverty and deprivation brought on by Westminster austerity.

[Sir David Gray]

OK poverty and deprivation brought on by Westminster austerity.

Why are Northern Ireland and Wales not affected by the same poverty and deprivation?

[G B Young]

Larger dealers dump the worst, most tampered with product onto Scottish users. Cocaine an average 11% pure. Dunno what it is for opiates but would be surprised if there is a sharp difference.

Why do they dump it on to Scottish users as opposed to non-Scottish users?

[Kato]

Why are Northern Ireland and Wales not affected by the same poverty and deprivation?

Is that a rhetorical question? Those places are affected as is the North of England and inner cities of the south. Too many ****holes to number.

[G B Young]

OK poverty and deprivation brought on by Westminster austerity.

If that's the case I'm surprised Sturgeon would pass up the opportunity to blame Westminster and instead take it upon herself to shoulder the blame for our drugs death rate being over three times that of the rest of the UK:

"I am not going to stand here and defend the indefensible. It is for me to take this squarely on the chin."

[G B Young]

Is that a rhetorical question? Those places are affected as is the North of England and inner cities of the south. Too many ****holes to number.

Indeed. That's why he's asking where the logic lies in claiming Westminster austerity would be exclusively responsible for Scotland's having by far the highest drugs death rate in western Europe.

The 'if in doubt blame Westminster' response doesn't wash here and I'd be more interested in hearing from anyone with genuine insight into why we as a nation are so disporportionately blighted by this issue.

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed. That's why he's asking where the logic lies in claiming Westminster austerity would be exclusively responsible for Scotland's having by far the highest drugs death rate in western Europe.

The 'if in doubt blame Westminster' response doesn't wash here and I'd be more interested in hearing from anyone with genuine insight into why we as a nation are so disporportionately blighted by this issue.

I’m not even sure it’s evenly distributed within Scotland. Seems to be affecting Glasgow more than Edinburgh?


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[Sir David Gray]

Is that a rhetorical question? Those places are affected as is the North of England and inner cities of the south. Too many ****holes to number.

It's not a rhetorical question.

If the reason for the scale of Scotland's drug problem is the poverty and deprivation brought on by Westminster austerity, why does Scotland have a drugs related death rate which is three and a half times higher than any other country in Europe (including Wales and Northern Ireland) and a drugs related death rate which has more than doubled in the space of five years?

[The Tubs]

Do we not compare badly with other parts of Europe on our need to abuse legal drugs too?

If that is the case, then policy action that is far more radical than other countries can be justified.

[Kato]

It's not a rhetorical question.

If the reason for the scale of Scotland's drug problem is the poverty and deprivation brought on by Westminster austerity, why does Scotland have a drugs related death rate which is three and a half times higher than any other country in Europe (including Wales and Northern Ireland) and a drugs related death rate which has more than doubled in the space of five years?

As above - the worst product is landed in Scotland. The country has, in case you haven't noticed, a reputation as legendary caners going back centuries. Unless you can say that we didnt have a rep as alcoholics in the past, "self destructive" was the phrase but alcoholism was a slower death.


Blend in the habit of mixing poor street drugs with pharmaceutical downers and that's a potent recipe.



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[Kato]

Indeed. That's why he's asking where the logic lies in claiming Westminster austerity would be exclusively responsible for Scotland's having by far the highest drugs death rate in western Europe.

The 'if in doubt blame Westminster' response doesn't wash here and I'd be more interested in hearing from anyone with genuine insight into why we as a nation are so disporportionately blighted by this issue.We had 11 years of Thatcherism during which working class communities were and institutions were openly attacked and dismantled, we've had 12 years of austerity with 5 of those being blighted by the "need" for Brexit, a right wing ideology which has put the country into a stasis and the sandwich filling was the ho-hum approach to communities from Major and Blair.

The lack of direction and status of dependency for a lot of communities has, not coincidentally, seen a rise in the use of drugs which blot a lot of that pain out, legal and illegal.

It might not wash with you that Westminster has had a hand in creating what passes as society for some in this country but in denying it as a factor your not coming across as looking at the problem seriously.

Scotland has it's own nuanced problems with opiates but the shaping of economic circumstances have had a huge say. Disparity has grown hugely in the UK and the seeds of that were planted firmly in the 80's.

The myopic and overly heavy handed prohibition of substances hasn't helped either.

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[lord bunberry]

Decriminalise, decriminalise and decriminalise again. The 'war on drugs' has failed us for decades.

Time for us to look at things with a fresh pair of eyes, accept that people will always want to take drugs, make that as safe as possible and be there to support those who's drug use is not recreational.
:top marksWe’ve been bumbling around with the same ridiculous failed policies for decades, it’s time to try something different.

[G B Young]

We had 11 years of Thatcherism during which working class communities were and institutions were openly attacked and dismantled, we've had 12 years of austerity with 5 of those being blighted by the "need" for Brexit, a right wing ideology which has put the country into a stasis and the sandwich filling was the ho-hum approach to communities from Major and Blair.

The lack of direction and status of dependency for a lot of communities has, not coincidentally, seen a rise in the use of drugs which blot a lot of that pain out, legal and illegal.

It might not wash with you that Westminster has had a hand in creating what passes as society for some in this country but in denying it as a factor your not coming across as looking at the problem seriously.

Scotland has it's own nuanced problems with opiates but the shaping of economic circumstances have had a huge say. Disparity has grown hugely in the UK and the seeds of that were planted firmly in the 80's.

The myopic and overly heavy handed prohibition of substances hasn't helped either.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I'm not denying anything as a factor. I'm just looking for answers as to why this appears to be such a disproportionately Scottish crisis. The disparity you mention has, as you say, impacted communities across the UK so austerity just doesen't seem to stack up as the catch-all answer to our drugs problems. Yes, we do have an unwanted reputation as heavy drinkers and while I wasn't aware of our centuries-old caner reputation it still seems to fall short as an explanation.

[Keith_M]

I'm not denying anything as a factor. I'm just looking for answers as to why this appears to be such a disproportionately Scottish crisis. The disparity you mention has, as you say, impacted communities across the UK so austerity just doesen't seem to stack up as the catch-all answer to our drugs problems. Yes, we do have an unwanted reputation as heavy drinkers and while I wasn't aware of our centuries-old caner reputation it still seems to fall short as an explanation.



:agree:

Other countries have economic issues just as bad, or even worse, than Scotland so there has to be much more to it than that.

Plus high drug use is not restricted to the poor. Journalists, for instance, are widely considered to be the biggest hypocrites in this regard, writing disdainful articles on drug abuse in between nipping to the toilet for their next snort.

[Berwickhibby]

:agree:

Other countries have economic issues just as bad, or even worse, than Scotland so there has to be much more to it than that.

Plus high drug use is not restricted to the poor. Journalists, for instance, are widely considered to be the biggest hypocrites in this regard, writing disdainful articles on drug abuse in between nipping to the toilet for their next snort.

:agree: I worked in Kensington and Chelsea, arguably one of the richest areas in U.K., there was as much drug addiction and abuse there as was in my home area of Muirhouse.

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree: I worked in Kensington and Chelsea, arguably one of the richest areas in U.K., there was as much drug addiction and abuse there as was in my home area of Muirhouse.

And, because they were affluent, they got better quality drugs, and also could afford rehab, something unlikely in Muirhouse, Easterhouse, Cardenden or Raploch.

[Berwickhibby]

And, because they were affluent, they got better quality drugs, and also could afford rehab, something unlikely in Muirhouse, Easterhouse, Cardenden or Raploch.

Not all areas like Nottinghill, Worlds End etc were just as poor, but yes other areas could afford to go to rehab and there were a few very expensive ones in the area.

[Keith_M]

And, because they were affluent, they got better quality drugs, and also could afford rehab, something unlikely in Muirhouse, Easterhouse, Cardenden or Raploch.


The weird thing is that drug use is also quite high in rural areas. My wife had a couple of spells working in Achnasheen, many moons ago, and she said Cocaine use was rife up there.

[Mon Dieu4]

The weird thing is that drug use is also quite high in rural areas. My wife had a couple of spells working in Achnasheen, many moons ago, and she said Cocaine use was rife up there.

The ***** stuff is so cheap it's rife everywhere unfortunately

[Berwickhibby]

The weird thing is that drug use is also quite high in rural areas. My wife had a couple of spells working in Achnasheen, many moons ago, and she said Cocaine use was rife up there.

:agree: I worked rural Northumberland and although Heroin was rife in Berwick, Blyth, Cramlington etc Cocaine was out of hand in places like Seahouses and Wooler

[Pretty Boy]

I think one of the successes of Thatcherism, from the point of view of proponents of it, is that it created an 'underclass' that broke any lingering working class solidarity that may have existed.

The 80s saw unemployment weaponised. There was a very deliberate attempt to create unemployment, turn people against each other with the 'there is work there for those that want it' mantra and made working 2 or more jobs to feed a family a noble endeavour rather than it being a national disgrace that it is necessary. That persists today with a stock response of 'just get a better job then' when people complain about poor conditions, unreliable hours, poor pay and so on. Rather than recognise the value in every job, people have been conditioned to tell people to be happy with their lot and it's their fault for not working hard enough, being better educated etc. if they can't make ends meet.

That broken spirit was further achieved by demonising those who sought solace in drugs, there was little acceptance of the underlying reasons. Let's be honest, absolutely no one chooses to be a heroin addict, they may choose to take that first hit but that's an entirely different thing. It's been touched on before but the heavy handed approach to drugs also sought to break up sub cultures and those who refused to conform to the accepted norms. Intrinsically linking the rites of passage that many young people pass through to petty or more serious crime was a sure fire way to upset the sensibilities of the ever offended middle class tax payer. Worse still drug use among the more affluent was essentially tolerated. Cocaine was everywhere in the city and on Fleet Street, still is, but that was regarded quite differently from a punk taking speed or someone chucked on the scrapheap in Wester Hailes injecting heroin. The same principle was applied when Section 28 was enacted into law. Demonise gay people, imply their sexuality is undesirable, stigmatise them because of HIV.....

It's arguably that broken society that paved the way for Brexit. A manipulative politcal power, a generation still basking in the reflected glory of the actions of their parents and grandparents and a lot of desperate people seeking an easy answer. It's why I'm reluctant to join in with the almost gleeful mocking of the deprived areas of England that voted for Brexit, they have been primed for this for years and their biggest crime is not realising it.

[Keith_M]

^
^
^
Did you mean to post that on the Brexit thread?






Or is it just a general rant at the world? :wink:

[Pretty Boy]

^
^
^
Did you mean to post that on the Brexit thread?






Or is it just a general rant at the world? :wink:

I think it's relevant to the topic at hand.

Drugs along with unemployment, race and so on are just one of the weapons used to maintain the consensus that Thatcherism solidified. It's why we can't have a serious conversation about wealth redistribution or about liberalising drugs laws and looking at a new way of doing things.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sometimes things turn out well in the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-55273677

[Pretty Boy]

Sometimes things turn out well in the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-55273677

****ing hell that was a hard read.

When you read that children are so hungry they are tearing into bags of food out of desperation it makes the intervention of UNICEF seem anything but a political stunt.

[Keith_M]

****ing hell that was a hard read.

When you read that children are so hungry they are tearing into bags of food out of desperation it makes the intervention of UNICEF seem anything but a political stunt.


But surely Jacob Rees-Mogg, of all people, is best placed to lecture us on what is and is not real poverty.

I take it re-opening the workhouses is out of the question?

[marinello59]

1264 people dead in one year. Thousands more family members directly affected. Our politicians have ignored this for far too long.
The right see the victims here as junkie **** who probably don't vote anyway. To them law and order is a vote winner so it suits them to see this simply as a criminal issue. Those politicians who label themselves as progressive are, in some ways, even worse. They'll congratulate on understanding the problem and knowing where the blame lies yet do nothing to actually solve the problem.
We have no proper drugs strategy at all, there doesn't seem to be any real will North or South of the border to introduce decriminalisation. Yet we do have the means to do something tactically about this now. Health and Policing are both devolved issues. Various Scottish Governments (actually, all of them) have made the right noises yet still overseen a scandalous cut in funding to treatment and rehabilitation programmes.
The victims here don't need endless discussions or more history lessons. Sturgeon has said she will look at the situation and take 'immediate action' sometime in January. By that time, at the current rate, there will be another hundred bodies. She should be announcing emergency funding now and telling our police chiefs to assist in setting up safe drug use areas.. There is nothing to stop safe tolerance zones being set up. Before Police Scotland was set up Grampian and Lothian (I think) both had tolerance zones for Prostitution. They went a long way towards protecting vulnerable women so, with genuine political will, it can be done.
Sorry, a bit of an incoherent rant from me but this isn't a left/right/yes/no issue. It's a basic humanitarian issue, we should all be badgering our MSPs and MPs to take urgent action.

[Stick]

Yes that was a very hard read. I’m sure that we know in our hearts that it is only one of probably thousands of similar stories. Felt sad reading this, then annoyed, then angry. Very angry, especially when we read about rich business people making obscene amounts of money because of the covid virus. Being given millions to supply useless safety products and services, to increase their already bloated bank balances.
Like many others I give what I can to charities, but realise it’s not nearly enough. I feel depressed now, knowing that I realistically can’t do a thing about this terrible situation.
Politicians, please stop lying and do something for these people, a forlorn Hope I know.

[Killiehibbie]

****ing hell that was a hard read.

When you read that children are so hungry they are tearing into bags of food out of desperation it makes the intervention of UNICEF seem anything but a political stunt.

Definitely no political stunt. There are people in every town in the country living in real poverty.

[RyeSloan]

1264 people dead in one year. Thousands more family members directly affected. Our politicians have ignored this for far too long.
The right see the victims here as junkie **** who probably don't vote anyway. To them law and order is a vote winner so it suits them to see this simply as a criminal issue. Those politicians who label themselves as progressive are, in some ways, even worse. They'll congratulate on understanding the problem and knowing where the blame lies yet do nothing to actually solve the problem.
We have no proper drugs strategy at all, there doesn't seem to be any real will North or South of the border to introduce decriminalisation. Yet we do have the means to do something tactically about this now. Health and Policing are both devolved issues. Various Scottish Governments (actually, all of them) have made the right noises yet still overseen a scandalous cut in funding to treatment and rehabilitation programmes.
The victims here don't need endless discussions or more history lessons. Sturgeon has said she will look at the situation and take 'immediate action' sometime in January. By that time, at the current rate, there will be another hundred bodies. She should be announcing emergency funding now and telling our police chiefs to assist in setting up safe drug use areas.. There is nothing to stop safe tolerance zones being set up. Before Police Scotland was set up Grampian and Lothian (I think) both had tolerance zones for Prostitution. They went a long way towards protecting vulnerable women so, with genuine political will, it can be done.
Sorry, a bit of an incoherent rant from me but this isn't a left/right/yes/no issue. It's a basic humanitarian issue, we should all be badgering our MSPs and MPs to take urgent action.

Too right. There is plenty that could and should be getting done here but yet we seem to have a thread about Thatcher!

[matty_f]

I think one of the successes of Thatcherism, from the point of view of proponents of it, is that it created an 'underclass' that broke any lingering working class solidarity that may have existed.

The 80s saw unemployment weaponised. There was a very deliberate attempt to create unemployment, turn people against each other with the 'there is work there for those that want it' mantra and made working 2 or more jobs to feed a family a noble endeavour rather than it being a national disgrace that it is necessary. That persists today with a stock response of 'just get a better job then' when people complain about poor conditions, unreliable hours, poor pay and so on. Rather than recognise the value in every job, people have been conditioned to tell people to be happy with their lot and it's their fault for not working hard enough, being better educated etc. if they can't make ends meet.

That broken spirit was further achieved by demonising those who sought solace in drugs, there was little acceptance of the underlying reasons. Let's be honest, absolutely no one chooses to be a heroin addict, they may choose to take that first hit but that's an entirely different thing. It's been touched on before but the heavy handed approach to drugs also sought to break up sub cultures and those who refused to conform to the accepted norms. Intrinsically linking the rites of passage that many young people pass through to petty or more serious crime was a sure fire way to upset the sensibilities of the ever offended middle class tax payer. Worse still drug use among the more affluent was essentially tolerated. Cocaine was everywhere in the city and on Fleet Street, still is, but that was regarded quite differently from a punk taking speed or someone chucked on the scrapheap in Wester Hailes injecting heroin. The same principle was applied when Section 28 was enacted into law. Demonise gay people, imply their sexuality is undesirable, stigmatise them because of HIV.....

It's arguably that broken society that paved the way for Brexit. A manipulative politcal power, a generation still basking in the reflected glory of the actions of their parents and grandparents and a lot of desperate people seeking an easy answer. It's why I'm reluctant to join in with the almost gleeful mocking of the deprived areas of England that voted for Brexit, they have been primed for this for years and their biggest crime is not realising it.

Great post mate.

You're right - nobody ever took drugs to become a junkie.

[Moulin Yarns]

Too right. There is plenty that could and should be getting done here but yet we seem to have a thread about Thatcher!

Well, she would drive anyone to drugs. 😉

[G B Young]

1264 people dead in one year. Thousands more family members directly affected. Our politicians have ignored this for far too long.
The right see the victims here as junkie **** who probably don't vote anyway. To them law and order is a vote winner so it suits them to see this simply as a criminal issue. Those politicians who label themselves as progressive are, in some ways, even worse. They'll congratulate on understanding the problem and knowing where the blame lies yet do nothing to actually solve the problem.
We have no proper drugs strategy at all, there doesn't seem to be any real will North or South of the border to introduce decriminalisation. Yet we do have the means to do something tactically about this now. Health and Policing are both devolved issues. Various Scottish Governments (actually, all of them) have made the right noises yet still overseen a scandalous cut in funding to treatment and rehabilitation programmes.
The victims here don't need endless discussions or more history lessons. Sturgeon has said she will look at the situation and take 'immediate action' sometime in January. By that time, at the current rate, there will be another hundred bodies. She should be announcing emergency funding now and telling our police chiefs to assist in setting up safe drug use areas.. There is nothing to stop safe tolerance zones being set up. Before Police Scotland was set up Grampian and Lothian (I think) both had tolerance zones for Prostitution. They went a long way towards protecting vulnerable women so, with genuine political will, it can be done.
Sorry, a bit of an incoherent rant from me but this isn't a left/right/yes/no issue. It's a basic humanitarian issue, we should all be badgering our MSPs and MPs to take urgent action.

Agreed. However, it seems hard for some to see beyond politics here.

While I accept that contextual factors strongly influence addiction, I'm more interested in Kato's allusion to Scotland being historically notorious for heavy drinking and (apparently) cocaine use. Is there something akin to a biological or behavioural genetic reason for this? ie something inherent which sets us apart from less blighted nations when it comes to addiction?

[Smartie]

Agreed. However, it seems hard for some to see beyond politics here.

While I accept that contextual factors strongly influence addiction, I'm more interested in Kato's allusion to Scotland being historically notorious for heavy drinking and (apparently) cocaine use. Is there something akin to a biological or behavioural genetic reason for this? ie something inherent which sets us apart from less blighted nations when it comes to addiction?

I tried to dodge a conversation with a mate on a WhatsApp group on the subject of drugs the other night. He's very right wing, very anti-independence and had chucked out a few graphs and figures with the intent (I think) of goading me into some sort of debate/ argument (FWIW we quite enjoy arguing with each other so it would be unusual - this time I just wasn't much in the mood).

I wouldn't expect him to be the sympathetic sort, but interestingly he said his brother used to run a drug and alcohol rehab unit in Leith. What he says is possibly unusual in Edinburgh is that the problems don't necessary follow the usual paths and divides - all ages, all genders and every social class are affected, much more than you might think. Obviously certain drugs will be more prevalent in certain environments but he was always taken aback by the fact that the people they saw were not the stereotypical folk he'd have expected to have seen.

We quit before getting into detail about what needs to be done, as we would surely have disagreed quite passionately, as is the norm.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201218/2a815b713d439cb2a4f5d6ec461e54fe.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201218/80168030b06899ace4c7ddcf66914092.jpg


Swift action taken anyway.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chorley Hibee]

I think one of the successes of Thatcherism, from the point of view of proponents of it, is that it created an 'underclass' that broke any lingering working class solidarity that may have existed.

The 80s saw unemployment weaponised. There was a very deliberate attempt to create unemployment, turn people against each other with the 'there is work there for those that want it' mantra and made working 2 or more jobs to feed a family a noble endeavour rather than it being a national disgrace that it is necessary. That persists today with a stock response of 'just get a better job then' when people complain about poor conditions, unreliable hours, poor pay and so on. Rather than recognise the value in every job, people have been conditioned to tell people to be happy with their lot and it's their fault for not working hard enough, being better educated etc. if they can't make ends meet.

That broken spirit was further achieved by demonising those who sought solace in drugs, there was little acceptance of the underlying reasons. Let's be honest, absolutely no one chooses to be a heroin addict, they may choose to take that first hit but that's an entirely different thing. It's been touched on before but the heavy handed approach to drugs also sought to break up sub cultures and those who refused to conform to the accepted norms. Intrinsically linking the rites of passage that many young people pass through to petty or more serious crime was a sure fire way to upset the sensibilities of the ever offended middle class tax payer. Worse still drug use among the more affluent was essentially tolerated. Cocaine was everywhere in the city and on Fleet Street, still is, but that was regarded quite differently from a punk taking speed or someone chucked on the scrapheap in Wester Hailes injecting heroin. The same principle was applied when Section 28 was enacted into law. Demonise gay people, imply their sexuality is undesirable, stigmatise them because of HIV.....

It's arguably that broken society that paved the way for Brexit. A manipulative politcal power, a generation still basking in the reflected glory of the actions of their parents and grandparents and a lot of desperate people seeking an easy answer. It's why I'm reluctant to join in with the almost gleeful mocking of the deprived areas of England that voted for Brexit, they have been primed for this for years and their biggest crime is not realising it.

A fabulous post.

[Smartie]

Now, if ever there was a situation that didn't call for someone to be swiftly thrown under a bus...

[G B Young]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201218/2a815b713d439cb2a4f5d6ec461e54fe.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201218/80168030b06899ace4c7ddcf66914092.jpg


Swift action taken anyway.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, that's what you call being hung out to dry.

[CropleyWasGod]

Now, if ever there was a situation that didn't call for someone to be swiftly thrown under a bus...

His continued refusal to meet Peter Kry**** had him marked down IMO. Whether that was instructed from above remains to be seen of course.

[Kato]

Agreed. However, it seems hard for some to see beyond politics here.

While I accept that contextual factors strongly influence addiction, I'm more interested in Kato's allusion to Scotland being historically notorious for heavy drinking and (apparently) cocaine use. Is there something akin to a biological or behavioural genetic reason for this? ie something inherent which sets us apart from less blighted nations when it comes to addiction?

I think its pretty widely known that Scots have a rep for heavy drinking. Spread that out to heavy imbibing of any old crap, imho.

There's a hubristic naivety somewhere in our culture that sees drug dealers being able to dump their inferior product onto the Scottish market in the knowledge that it will be sold and taken.

As far as the historical use of drugs is concerned there is a book out there called "The Great Binge" which attempts to measure pre-prohibition intake, we weren't shy. Its more a UK take on things but Scots did their level best to get as wasted as possible throughout the 19th Century - e.g. from memory of the book a third of the ingredients of snuff was cocaine, which fell completely out of fashion from the 1920's and the introduction of prohibition. A while since I read it but worth hunting a copy down.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Binge


Also remember, RL Stevenson wrote Jekyll and Hyde as a metaphor on the consequences of addiction to posh. Its not clever or pretty if you get addicted.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

His continued refusal to meet Peter Kry**** had him marked down IMO. Whether that was instructed from above remains to be seen of course.

I feel for him, he is paying the price for over a decade of inaction. He has done the honourable thing though. His departure is a signal that more can be done. Three more victims every day, hopefully we are going to see swift practical measures on the ground. If not his resignation is meaningless.
Please contact your MSP if you feel strongly about this, I have. If we can get politicians of all parties on this then we can make a real difference.

[Hiber-nation]

From the brief snippets I hear from ex-SG colleagues, Fitzpatrick was pretty much out of his depth unfortunately.

[One Day Soon]

From the brief snippets I hear from ex-SG colleagues, Fitzpatrick was pretty much out of his depth unfortunately.


He was, but to be fair to him it's also the case that just about any Minister given that responsibility in a junior ministerial role would be. This is an issue that is too big and too broad to be able to be tackled in any meaningful way by a Minister not even in Cabinet. Few people around government and politics are going to think that Angela Constance is a step up in talent terms from Fitzpatrick.

The Minister working directly to Sturgeon might work but I doubt it - they should be in the Cabinet with a licence to cross cut into the Education, Health and Justice briefs otherwise this will almost certainly amount to little more than a PR exercise.

This is exactly the kind of issue that could benefit from a cross party and cross government approach too.

[Santa Cruz]

Great post mate.

You're right - nobody ever took drugs to become a junkie.

The biggest problem is stigma towards people who use drugs and the term ‘junkie’ is not acceptable any more. Not getting at you particularly it’s a wider societal problem especially in the mainstream media.

[marinello59]

He was, but to be fair to him it's also the case that just about any Minister given that responsibility in a junior ministerial role would be. This is an issue that is too big and too broad to be able to be tackled in any meaningful way by a Minister not even in Cabinet. Few people around government and politics are going to think that Angela Constance is a step up in talent terms from Fitzpatrick.

The Minister working directly to Sturgeon might work but I doubt it - they should be in the Cabinet with a licence to cross cut into the Education, Health and Justice briefs otherwise this will almost certainly amount to little more than a PR exercise.

This is exactly the kind of issue that could benefit from a cross party and cross government approach too.

Yeap.

[Santa Cruz]

Yeap.

Drug deaths stats usually come out on the middle of the summer holidays and by the time Parliament resumes nobody cares any more. This years stats were delayed because of toxicology contractual issues and to a lesser degree because of covid. The percent increase in 2018 was nearly 26 percent and 2019 stats were 6 per cent increase.( 2020 stats should be released by NRS in August 2021). So the reason other parties care this year is so they can have a go when the issue is in the news. Saying all that I’m not a against a cross party group to lead the response just should have happened before now.

[The Modfather]

He was, but to be fair to him it's also the case that just about any Minister given that responsibility in a junior ministerial role would be. This is an issue that is too big and too broad to be able to be tackled in any meaningful way by a Minister not even in Cabinet. Few people around government and politics are going to think that Angela Constance is a step up in talent terms from Fitzpatrick.

The Minister working directly to Sturgeon might work but I doubt it - they should be in the Cabinet with a licence to cross cut into the Education, Health and Justice briefs otherwise this will almost certainly amount to little more than a PR exercise.

This is exactly the kind of issue that could benefit from a cross party and cross government approach too.

Without wanting to detract from the subject in this thread there’s so much, drug abuse included, that should be cross party. All parties only care about their own self interest though.

[marinello59]

Drug deaths stats usually come out on the middle of the summer holidays and by the time Parliament resumes nobody cares any more. This years stats were delayed because of toxicology contractual issues and to a lesser degree because of covid. The percent increase in 2018 was nearly 26 percent and 2019 stats were 6 per cent increase.( 2020 stats should be released by NRS in August 2021). So the reason other parties care this year is so they can have a go when the issue is in the news. Saying all that I’m not a against a cross party group to lead the response just should have happened before now.

I’m hoping that means we have a real opportunity to get something concrete done this time around then. Appointing Angela Constance as a dedicated Minister for Drug Policy is a good start.

[G B Young]

I think its pretty widely known that Scots have a rep for heavy drinking. Spread that out to heavy imbibing of any old crap, imho.

There's a hubristic naivety somewhere in our culture that sees drug dealers being able to dump their inferior product onto the Scottish market in the knowledge that it will be sold and taken.

As far as the historical use of drugs is concerned there is a book out there called "The Great Binge" which attempts to measure pre-prohibition intake, we weren't shy. Its more a UK take on things but Scots did their level best to get as wasted as possible throughout the 19th Century - e.g. from memory of the book a third of the ingredients of snuff was cocaine, which fell completely out of fashion from the 1920's and the introduction of prohibition. A while since I read it but worth hunting a copy down.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Binge


Also remember, RL Stevenson wrote Jekyll and Hyde as a metaphor on the consequences of addiction to posh. Its not clever or pretty if you get addicted.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Cheers.

Wasn't aware of the Jekyll and Hyde connection. Haven't read it for many years but might revisit it. Great book.

[G B Young]

I feel for him, he is paying the price for over a decade of inaction. He has done the honourable thing though. His departure is a signal that more can be done. Three more victims every day, hopefully we are going to see swift practical measures on the ground. If not his resignation is meaningless.
Please contact your MSP if you feel strongly about this, I have. If we can get politicians of all parties on this then we can make a real difference.


Yes, it would be hard to believe he's just been muddling away on his own and this week's figures came as a bolt from the blue for the First Minister. Her government has clearly failed dismally on this issue.

As ODS says, a cross-party approach might prove more effective and like you I will also be contacting my (Labour) MSP about this.

[Betty Boop]

70 rehab places across the whole of Scotland is an actual disgrace. Did Sturgeon not say she was going to tackle drug deaths last January?

[Moulin Yarns]

Cheers.

Wasn't aware of the Jekyll and Hyde connection. Haven't read it for many years but might revisit it. Great book.

At the time it was written doctors were experimenting with all sorts of drugs, in the name of research.

Sir James Young Simpson and friends would try things out after dinner and that was what led to chloroform and anesthetics.

[Peevemor]

70 rehab places across the whole of Scotland is an actual disgrace. Did Sturgeon not say she was going to tackle drug deaths last January?Possibly.

I can't think what might have happened to interfere with any plans...? [emoji848]

[marinello59]

Possibly.

I can't think what might have happened to interfere with any plans...? [emoji848]

She also made that promise in July 2019. She described the situation as an emergency.
I’m not just blaming the SNP here, politicians of all parties have not done enough.

[Kato]

Cheers.

Wasn't aware of the Jekyll and Hyde connection. Haven't read it for many years but might revisit it. Great book.Fantastic book, still reads as quite modern and the subject matter most certainly is.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

She also made that promise in July 2019. She described the situation as an emergency.
I’m not just blaming the SNP here, politicians of all parties have not done enough.

Society as a whole needs to shoulder the blame, parents, teachers, role models, politicians, police and the rest of society could do more. Drugs are a social problem and social problems can only be sorted when everybody mucks in.

[marinello59]

Society as a whole needs to shoulder the blame, parents, teachers, role models, politicians, police and the rest of society could do more. Drugs are a social problem and social problems can only be sorted when everybody mucks in.

:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Good news from Peter Kry****.

I am very happy to be meeting with FM @NicolaSturgeon to discuss drug policy & actions we can take now to curb this drug death crisis.

In the paper I've called for cross party & organisational work, only by working together can we solve this.

[marinello59]

Good news from Peter Kry****.

I am very happy to be meeting with FM @NicolaSturgeon to discuss drug policy & actions we can take now to curb this drug death crisis.

In the paper I've called for cross party & organisational work, only by working together can we solve this.

That really is good news.

[marinello59]

Good news from Peter Kry****.

I am very happy to be meeting with FM @NicolaSturgeon to discuss drug policy & actions we can take now to curb this drug death crisis.

In the paper I've called for cross party & organisational work, only by working together can we solve this.

Has this meeting happened yet?

[CropleyWasGod]

Has this meeting happened yet?

Not sure.

He has announced, however, that he's standing in the Falkirk East constituency in the election. So his voice is going to get louder.

[marinello59]

Not sure.

He has announced, however, that he's standing in the Falkirk East constituency in the election. So his voice is going to get louder.

Good move from him.

[Ozyhibby]

Good luck to him but I don’t see much chance for independent candidates in May.


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[marinello59]

Good luck to him but I don’t see much chance for independent candidates in May.


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The aim isn’t to win the seat though, it’s to keep this issue in the spotlight.

[marinello59]

Not sure.

He has announced, however, that he's standing in the Falkirk East constituency in the election. So his voice is going to get louder.

The meeting is happening this week apparently. Hopefully something positive comes out of it.

[CropleyWasGod]

The meeting is happening this week apparently. Hopefully something positive comes out of it.

Ta

[CropleyWasGod]

A pleasure to meet with the First Minister @NicolaSturgeon today.
A real commitment personally & for ScotGov to do all it can to reduce drug deaths.
Key message was one of working together & look forward to hearing more in @ScotParl towards the end of the month. https://t.co/ob4RLEOlws

From Peter Kry**** today

[marinello59]

A pleasure to meet with the First Minister @NicolaSturgeon today.
A real commitment personally & for ScotGov to do all it can to reduce drug deaths.
Key message was one of working together & look forward to hearing more in @ScotParl towards the end of the month. https://t.co/ob4RLEOlws

From Peter Kry**** today

That’s very encouraging.

[CropleyWasGod]

That’s very encouraging.

Maybe the admins can work on the decriminalisation of his name 😁

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe the admins can work on the decriminalisation of his name 😁

About time too. German philosophy threads on here are a car crash.

[CropleyWasGod]

About time too. German philosophy threads on here are a car crash.

:greengrin

As the Pythons said, Immanuel **** was a real piss ant.




Oh, wait, I can say piss.

[ronaldo7]

Charged dropped for Peter Krycant. (deliberate spelling) :wink:

https://news.stv.tv/politics/drug-services-exemption-call-as-activists-charges-dropped?top

[Ozyhibby]

Charged dropped for Peter Krycant. (deliberate spelling) :wink:

https://news.stv.tv/politics/drug-services-exemption-call-as-activists-charges-dropped?top

Good. We need to change the law to allow drug addiction to be dealt with as a health problem. Good luck to this guy.


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[ronaldo7]

Good. We need to change the law to allow drug addiction to be dealt with as a health problem. Good luck to this guy.


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:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Charged dropped for Peter Krycant. (deliberate spelling) :wink:

https://news.stv.tv/politics/drug-services-exemption-call-as-activists-charges-dropped?top

Good news :thumbsup:

[marinello59]

More good news. £250 million of funding to tackle this.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19025802.nicola-sturgeon-says-government-should-done-sooner-drug-deaths/

[He's here!]

Drug deaths in Scotland expected to reach new high:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-bill-to-give-drug-addicts-a-right-to-recovery-being-backed-by-snp-msps-3327766

[Ozyhibby]

Drug deaths in Scotland expected to reach new high:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-bill-to-give-drug-addicts-a-right-to-recovery-being-backed-by-snp-msps-3327766

Is drug policy a reserved matter?


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[Skol]

Is drug policy a reserved matter?


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Why are we so different from England, Wales and NI?

[Ozyhibby]

Why are we so different from England, Wales and NI?

Different places sometimes have different problems. Maybe minimum pricing of alcohol is pushing some people to use drugs more even though it’s a successful policy in reducing alcohol deaths? Who knows?
What I do know is we are trying to deal with it with one hand tied behind our back. SG have asked for more control over drug policy and have been refused.


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[Since90+2]

The drug deaths in Scotland are a disgrace and the SNP need to hold their hands up (as Nicola Sturgeon has done to be fair) and get it sorted. And that's from a SNP and yes supporter. We can't simply blame Westminster for everything that is failing in Scotland.

[makaveli1875]

I had a drug death in my street last month . Some junkie had broke into a guys caravan and decided to shoot up mid burglary and overdosed himself .
Noticed a few smackheads going round here lately . Scary

[Ozyhibby]

I had a drug death in my street last month . Some junkie had broke into a guys caravan and decided to shoot up mid burglary and overdosed himself .
Noticed a few smackheads going round here lately . Scary

Is it possible he broke in just to find somewhere to shoot up?


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[Ozyhibby]

The drug deaths in Scotland are a disgrace and the SNP need to hold their hands up (as Nicola Sturgeon has done to be fair) and get it sorted. And that's from a SNP and yes supporter. We can't simply blame Westminster for everything that is failing in Scotland.

I agree. It’s also not something that is solely down to the SG either though which is my point.


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[makaveli1875]

Is it possible he broke in just to find somewhere to shoot up?


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No he had ransacked the place and started filling his bag

[Since90+2]

I also think the attitude towards people with addiction problems need to change. Referring to them as junkies and such like instead of people with severe health problems (both mental and physical).

It needs to be treated as a health issue primarily rather than a criminal one. That is one area where Scotland doesn't have any powers.

[ronaldo7]

I also think the attitude towards people with addiction problems need to change. Referring to them as junkies and such like instead of people with severe health problems (both mental and physical).

It needs to be treated as a health issue primarily rather than a criminal one. That is one area where Scotland doesn't have any powers.

Totally agree.

[marinello59]

Drug deaths in Scotland expected to reach new high:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-bill-to-give-drug-addicts-a-right-to-recovery-being-backed-by-snp-msps-3327766

Given the scale of the problem it’s understandable that there was going to be a lag before the additional funding made available by the Scottish Government began to have results. Dig in to that story though and it’s actually pretty good news. Nicola Sturgeon did this matter a huge service by unequivocally stating that the Government had taken their eye of the ball. It’s concentrated minds across all parties as to the urgency required resulting in the Tories, (yes, the Tories), introducing something positive that may well get all party support.
This transcends petty political point scoring, people are losing their lives needlessly to drugs nearly every single day so it so it is good to see our politicians concentrating on the many things we can do. Let’s hope that empathy for the plight of our fellow citizens helps to maintain this drive towards real action, those whose first instinct is to shift blame or say we can’t do that help nobody.

[CropleyWasGod]

I had a drug death in my street last month . Some junkie had broke into a guys caravan and decided to shoot up mid burglary and overdosed himself .
Noticed a few smackheads going round here lately . Scary

Following on from the last few posts, and the empathetic tone, this is not a dig at you, as I understand it's a societal thing that we've become used to.

Use of the words highlighted doesn't help, if we are to move away from criminalising drug-use. That kind of language stigmatises and dehumanises those most at risk.

[Sir David Gray]

More than 1,300 people died of drug misuse in Scotland last year, with the country seeing a record number of deaths for the seventh year in a row.

3.5 times higher than England and Wales. It means Scotland continues to have by far the highest drug death rate recorded by any country in Europe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58024296

[Hibs90]

Scottish Government doesn't have the power to reform drug laws. They asked and were refused. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be because UK government knew it was an easy political points score for them? Would you put that past them? I certainly wouldn't.

[ronaldo7]

More than 1,300 people died of drug misuse in Scotland last year, with the country seeing a record number of deaths for the seventh year in a row.

3.5 times higher than England and Wales. It means Scotland continues to have by far the highest drug death rate recorded by any country in Europe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58024296

https://www.gov.scot/news/drug-related-death-statistics-2020/

Drugs Policy Minister Angela Constance has described the increase in drug-related deaths as “heart-breaking”, and reiterated the Scottish Government’s determination to continue its work to address the crisis.

National Records of Scotland figures show there were 1,339 deaths, an increase of 5% on 2019 and the highest figure on record.

From September, there will be quarterly reporting of suspected drug deaths to enable better surveillance and response from all those involved in tackling this public health emergency.

A national mission on the crisis was announced in January following the appointment of Angela Constance in December 2020 to the newly created post of Drugs Policy Minister.

Since then the Scottish Government has announced that £250 million will be spent on addressing the emergency over the next five years.

An immediate priority is getting more people into treatment and £100 million will go towards improving and increasing the provision of residential rehabilitation while £4 million is being spent on the implementation of MAT (Medication Assisted Treatment) standards.

The new standards ensure everyone has access to the support which works best for them, no matter where they live. Same day support will start to be rolled out from this autumn with all of the standards in place by April next year.

Other measures introduced so far this year as part of the national mission include:

funds totalling £18 million for improving outreach services and support for families, and increasing residential rehabilitation provision
£4 million on the expansion of the provision of long-lasting buprenorphine (Buvidal) into the wider community following a successful pilot in prisons
£400,000 on expanding the existing Heroin-Assisted Treatment facility in Glasgow - exploring its use in other parts of Scotland
£3 million to services to expand near-fatal overdose pathways
£3 million to expand the range of outreach services so that treatment and support are available regardless of where people live
£13.5 million for Alcohol and Drugs Partnerships to support local and national initiatives
guidance being finalised by a Drug Deaths Taskforce Working Group on the consistent prescribing of benzodiazepine
Ms Constance writing to the UK Minister for Policing to push for action on the regulation of pill presses, drug checking facilities and overdose prevention facilities
consultations with stakeholders on the formation of a National Collaborative (Forum) to focus on the voices of people with lived or living experience and families
Ms Constance said:

“Once again, the statistics on drug-related deaths are heart-breaking. I want to offer my sincere condolences to everyone who has lost a loved one through drug use.

“We need to gather as much information as we can about drug use in Scotland and to that end, data on suspected drug deaths will be published quarterly from this September. This will ensure we can react more quickly and effectively to this crisis and identify any emerging trends.

“We are working hard to get more people into the treatment that works for them as quickly as possible. Without treatment, there is little hope of recovery so we are funding as many community and third sector initiatives as we can so that individuals have the widest possible choice and can opt for the support which suits them and their family.

“Of the £250 million announced over the next five years, £100 million will go on improving the provision of residential rehabilitation and I will update Parliament on progress in this area after the summer recess.

“As I have said before, I am determined that every penny of this additional funding will make a difference to all those affected by drug use in Scotland.”

Drug Deaths Taskforce Chair Professor Catriona Matheson said:

“Every drug-related death in Scotland is an avoidable tragedy, and these figures serve to remind us of the importance and urgency of our mission to identify the areas of action that can make a sustainable impact against the challenge.

“We believe the approach of putting evidence into action has saved lives, and we will analyse the detail behind the headlines and look to build upon those areas showing progress and to address those areas requiring more attention.

“Both the causes of, and the solutions to, the challenge we all face are complex, at its heart are real people at real risk, and we continue to be determined to make difference for them.”

Lothians & Edinburgh Abstinence Programme Clinical Lead Dr David McCartney said:

“All of us who work in addiction treatment are appalled at the high level of drug-related deaths in Scotland. Having a wide range of treatment options that are holistic, reduce harm, promote recovery and are integrated into a recovery oriented system of care is essential to address the crisis. I welcome the Scottish Government’s investment in residential rehabilitation treatment as part of the wider approach under the National Mission.”

Andrew Horne, director of the drug, alcohol and mental health charity With You, said:

"With You remains concerned and saddened by the tragic and continual increase in the numbers of lives lost due to problems with drugs. Every drug-related death is preventable, and each death has a huge impact on families and communities, continuing to be felt years down the line. Our thoughts are with the thousands of people who have lost a loved one in the past year.

"We have a mountain to climb to reverse these alarming figures but with the recently strengthened commitment and decisive action now being taken, we are hopeful that change is possible.

"New investment in outreach teams for people who have had a non-fatal overdose or who have dropped out of treatment marks a significant step forward, as does the improved support for people transitioning from prison into the community. Changes to enable quicker access to appointments and more choice over treatment, as standard across Scotland, are also positive.

"These figures are stark, but with new initiatives, clear standards and high expectations of services and partnership working, they can be brought down."

BACKGROUND

The quarterly reporting of suspected drug deaths is the result of a collaboration led by the Scottish Government with NRS, Police Scotland and Public Health Scotland to improve data and surveillance.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish Government doesn't have the power to reform drug laws. They asked and were refused. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be because UK government knew it was an easy political points score for them? Would you put that past them? I certainly wouldn't.

I think with the announcement of chain gangs etc, the two countries are just going in different directions.


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[Hibs90]

I think with the announcement of chain gangs etc, the two countries are just going in different directions.


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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7iLAwBXsAANAe4?format=jpg&name=900x900


This says it all. Why were they refused? I think we all know.

[Lendo]

Is there any data as to the age range of the 1300 deaths. Are these older habitual drug users, younger people who had only just started?

[Antifa Hibs]

Well as someone who has spent the last year effectively trapped in West Pilton I for one am absolutely shocked at this news :rolleyes:


"Blame Westminster, indyref2, Brexit" Rinse and repeat sweep sweep move along please.

[speedy_gonzales]

Is there any data as to the age range of the 1300 deaths. Are these older habitual drug users, younger people who had only just started?

Not a complete breakdown in regards to age, but the BBC article has this entry;

"Almost two thirds of the deaths were of people aged between 35 and 54, with the average age increasing from 32 to 43 over the past two decades."

[speedy_gonzales]

Why are we so different from England, Wales and NI?

I'm far from being a subject matter expert on this topic, but in my "observational" experience, the Scottish cities still have a lot of low grade heroin and cheap nasty "street" vallies that cost pennies.
Down south, there's been a big proliferation of fentanyl and "spice" in recent years. Perhaps the different drugs have very different risks?

[Jack]

I also think the attitude towards people with addiction problems need to change. Referring to them as junkies and such like instead of people with severe health problems (both mental and physical).

It needs to be treated as a health issue primarily rather than a criminal one. That is one area where Scotland doesn't have any powers.

I disagree. By treating as primarily a health problem its too late, much of the damage has already been done. In my opinion the way to beat it is to act before it becomes a health problem and that's a wider society problem.

[makaveli1875]

Scottish Government doesn't have the power to reform drug laws. They asked and were refused. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be because UK government knew it was an easy political points score for them? Would you put that past them? I certainly wouldn't.

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics

[Hibs90]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics


Not sure if this is a troll or not. Your attitude towards it speaks volumes. Safe injection sites as they are called are proven working solutions in rehabilitation.

Here is a link if you'd like to educate yourself on the issue, might help with your attitude;
https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=38604&p=0

[Kato]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholicsWhat would work then?

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[Since90+2]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics

What you're describing actually does work. And has proven to be successful in reducing drug deaths.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics

Have a look at Portugal, which is the model most drugs experts hold up as an example of what could be done.

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

[Skol]

What would work then?

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I start this post by holding my hands up and saying I am no expert.

While safe rooms might be an option, that strikes me as being a last resort and ideally you want to do what you can to stop people getting to the stage where that is required. How that is achieved though is not easy. Clearly engagement and education would be an option as well as efforts to disrupt the supply.

We must also be able to look at other parts of the UK and assess why they dont have the problem that we do.

[Mon Dieu4]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics

Portugal as previously said did it and so have Switzerland, the Swiss didn't even do it out if the goodness of their heart, they did it because it's actually cheaper in the end and both have proven that it works

[CropleyWasGod]

Portugal as previously said did it and so have Switzerland, the Swiss didn't even do it out if the goodness of their heart, they did it because it's actually cheaper in the end and both have proven that it works

IIRC... And it's many years ago now... every 2 Francs that decriminalisation cost them in administration was offset by 5 Francs saved by the justice system.

[Hibs90]

I had a drug death in my street last month . Some junkie had broke into a guys caravan and decided to shoot up mid burglary and overdosed himself .
Noticed a few smackheads going round here lately . Scary

Perhaps he/she wouldn't have done had there been a supervised injection site.

[Kato]

I start this post by holding my hands up and saying I am no expert.

While safe rooms might be an option, that strikes me as being a last resort and ideally you want to do what you can to stop people getting to the stage where that is required. How that is achieved though is not easy. Clearly engagement and education would be an option as well as efforts to disrupt the supply.

We must also be able to look at other parts of the UK and assess why they dont have the problem that we do.

This sounds like a continuation of the "War On Drugs", a forty year campaign punctuated with minuscule victories and zero inroads to actually halting the problem.

We know from the Prohibition experiments in the US pre WW2 that what prohibition does is .. hand over the market to organised crime and criminalise users/communities.

Probitition has never worked anywhere.



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[speedy_gonzales]

What you're describing actually does work. And has proven to be successful in reducing drug deaths.

I think that's a given, considering the medical support the safe rooms have available to them. That and the testing of the product they can do before consumption.
I think if you were to draft a plan on the back of a fag packet, it'd be stop the deaths, clean up the gear, make support/counseling available to those who needed it before they fell in to addiction.
Can you imagine the benefit to society if you cut out the organised crime that goes along with drug dealing if safer, cost effective options were available?

[WeeRussell]

I start this post by holding my hands up and saying I am no expert.

While safe rooms might be an option, that strikes me as being a last resort and ideally you want to do what you can to stop people getting to the stage where that is required. How that is achieved though is not easy. Clearly engagement and education would be an option as well as efforts to disrupt the supply.

We must also be able to look at other parts of the UK and assess why they dont have the problem that we do.

I take your points and agree with most of it - but when talking about drug deaths statistics, I would guess the vast majority of these come from people who are already past the last resort stage.

Obviously the stuff you are suggesting can help the next generation of drug addicts or potential addicts.

[CropleyWasGod]

This sounds like a continuation of the "War On Drugs", a forty year campaign punctuated with minuscule victories and zero inroads to actually halting the problem.

We know from the Prohibition experiments in the US pre WW2 that what prohibition does is .. hand over the market to organised crime and criminalise users/communities.

Probitition has never worked anywhere.



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I'm involved with Recovering Justice, an organisation that seeks to change drug policy in the UK.

Speaking to its lead yesterday, they are clear that the War on Drugs is very much on again.

This might be of interest to some people. https://www.recoveringjustice.org.uk/

[WeeRussell]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7iLAwBXsAANAe4?format=jpg&name=900x900


This says it all. Why were they refused? I think we all know.

It’s almost as if posh folk doing coke at parties is okay but ****** helping those in poverty whose lives have got so bad they now depend on hard drugs every day of their lives.

[Pretty Boy]

Maybe the Scottish Govt and the woefully unfit for purpose Police Scotland could start by considering and then answering why drug gangs are operating with impunity in schemes throughout Edinburgh, and I suppose by extension throughout Scotland. I know most politicians would be shocked to discover schemes actually exist as placed to live rather than being a place to get a photo taken when an election is on the horizon but anyway.

Decriminalisation is a lofty aim for the end game. Tackling the gangs terrorising the streets would be a decent starting point on that road.

[Skol]

I take your points and agree with most of it - but when talking about drug deaths statistics, I would guess the vast majority of these come from people who are already past the last resort stage.

Obviously the stuff you are suggesting can help the next generation of drug addicts or potential addicts.

Yeah, that was my point in that there is both a short and long term approach that should be taken.

[CropleyWasGod]

Maybe the Scottish Govt and the woefully unfit for purpose Police Scotland could start by considering and then answering why drug gangs are operating with impunity in schemes throughout Edinburgh, and I suppose by extension throughout Scotland. I know most politicians would be shocked to discover schemes actually exist as placed to live rather than being a place to get a photo taken when an election is on the horizon but anyway.

Decriminalisation is a lofty aim for the end game. Tackling the gangs terrorising the streets would be a decent starting point on that road.

One of the aims of decrim is to take out the need for the gangs. By bringing supply into State control, it both removes the dealer and guarantees safer product for the user

[degenerated]

I also think the attitude towards people with addiction problems need to change. Referring to them as junkies and such like instead of people with severe health problems (both mental and physical).

It needs to be treated as a health issue primarily rather than a criminal one. That is one area where Scotland doesn't have any powers.

That's the problem though, isn't it? The law insists it is treated as a criminal issue and that is the bit that is reserved to Westminster.

[Pretty Boy]

One of the aims of decrim is to take out the need for the gangs. By bringing supply into State control, it both removes the dealer and guarantees safer product for the user

Of course but I think even someone foolishly optimistic in their belief that we will suddenly end up with a progressive govt in this country would accept that such a step is a way off.

In the here and now there are gangs operating who are untouchable. The people who live in the schemes know who they are, people who don't live in schemes will know their names and faces but they carry on knowing their business won't be interfered with. It stinks.

[ronaldo7]

Why are we so different from England, Wales and NI?

I'm not sure about NI, however this was posted in the BMJ last October.

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3988

Drug deaths: England and Wales see highest number since records began

Nearly 4400 drug poisoning deaths were registered in England and Wales in 2019, the highest number since records began in 1993, a report from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) has shown.1

While the numbers have only slightly increased since 2018 (4359 deaths v 4393), there has been a 52% increase in drug related deaths in the past 10 years.

Two thirds of the deaths in 2019 were related to drug misuse, with the rate of these deaths reaching 50.4 deaths per million people.

The ONS figures, published 14 October, reported that the north east of England had a statistically significantly higher rate of deaths relating to drug misuse than all other English regions (95.0 deaths per million people). The east of England had the lowest rate (33.6 deaths per million people).

Males accounted for two thirds of drug poisoning deaths in 2019, or 2968 of 4393 registered deaths, consistent with previous years.

The report also highlighted that while there were no statistically significant changes to age standardised rates of any specific drug mentioned on the death certificate between 2018 and 2019, deaths involving cocaine increased for the eighth successive year, by 7.7% for male deaths and by 26.5% for female deaths.

“In the past decade, rates of drug poisoning deaths have been higher in the most deprived areas of England and Wales compared with the least; this is particularly the case among those aged in their forties where rates reach peaks that are at least 5.5 times higher in the most deprived areas,” the report continued.

Niamh Eastwood, executive director of the drugs charity Release, said, “People are dying and government inaction is contributing to these deaths. In the past 12 months, two parliamentary select committees—the Health and Social Care Select Committee and the Scottish Affairs Select Committee—have called for drug policy reform in the UK in order to tackle drug related deaths, citing the need for investment in treatment and harm reduction, supporting calls for overdose prevention sites, and calling for a review of the law to end criminal sanctions for possession offences.

“If the home secretary and the prime minister continue to ignore these calls they will continue to be responsible for the deaths of thousands of people every year. It is time to stop playing politics and listen to the evidence.”

[silverhibee]

What would work then?

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I don’t know but the methadone program is outdated, I might be wrong but when it was introduced it was to wean people of herion and then wean them of methadone, we can’t just keep giving out methadone to young people who decide this is the way ahead as they still collect it as they become older, you cannot give it to people for the rest of there lives and they continue to mix it with other drugs, there has to be help to get them out the cycle, ffs, some mums & dads encourage there kids to get on the meth program and end up being drug addicts themselves, it’s the mixing of drugs that’s the problem, herion dodgy vallies and your legal methadone, maybe doctors checking bloods to see if there is illegal drugs in system and if so the program comes to a halt.

[He's here!]

More than 1,300 people died of drug misuse in Scotland last year, with the country seeing a record number of deaths for the seventh year in a row.

3.5 times higher than England and Wales. It means Scotland continues to have by far the highest drug death rate recorded by any country in Europe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58024296

That's a horribly depressing league table they've printed there with Scotland so far out in front.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/13692/production/_119660597_02_international_comparison_2021-nc.png

[He's here!]

Why are we so different from England, Wales and NI?

Good question. From the Scotsman:

Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar said: "We have the same drugs laws as the rest of the UK but three-and-a-half times the rate of drugs deaths. These figures are the tragic consequences of years of failure to get to grips with this growing crisis in Scotland and to address the threat posed by drugs."We can and must act now, by investing in a range of services and delivering truly person-centred treatment and recovery."


The Right to Recovery bill introduced by the Scottish Tories and backed (I think) by Labour seems like a sensible proposal IMHO.

[ronaldo7]

Good question. From the Scotsman:

Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar said: "We have the same drugs laws as the rest of the UK but three-and-a-half times the rate of drugs deaths. These figures are the tragic consequences of years of failure to get to grips with this growing crisis in Scotland and to address the threat posed by drugs."We can and must act now, by investing in a range of services and delivering truly person-centred treatment and recovery."


The Right to Recovery bill introduced by the Scottish Tories and backed (I think) by Labour seems like a sensible proposal IMHO.

Has the draft bill been published?

I've read that MSP's of all parties are supportive of such a bill, but until they see the Draft they'll reserve judgement. I've seen the proposal of the Right to recovery bill, but not the bill itself?

[CropleyWasGod]

Good question. From the Scotsman:

Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar said: "We have the same drugs laws as the rest of the UK but three-and-a-half times the rate of drugs deaths. These figures are the tragic consequences of years of failure to get to grips with this growing crisis in Scotland and to address the threat posed by drugs."We can and must act now, by investing in a range of services and delivering truly person-centred treatment and recovery."


The Right to Recovery bill introduced by the Scottish Tories and backed (I think) by Labour seems like a sensible proposal IMHO.

It's been said before, but I don't think England break their numbers down into areas, at least publicly. It might be useful if they did, in order to see how our numbers (presumably, most in the Central Belt) compare with the inner cities of England.

And thats not about whataboutery, or political point scoring. It's about seeing what, eg, Manchester is doing that Glasgow isn't, and vice versa, in the spirit of co-operation and education.

[nairn hibee]

Was working for a guy in the drug squad last week ,he said the sentences for drugs are pitiful compared to England
whether that’s right or not I don’t know,dealers walk about brazenly in Nairn ,everyone knows who they are but nothing gets done

[He's here!]

Has the draft bill been published?

I've read that MSP's of all parties are supportive of such a bill, but until they see the Draft they'll reserve judgement. I've seen the proposal of the Right to recovery bill, but not the bill itself?

According to the Herald it was published last month:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19399274.tories-publish-right-rehab-plans-tackle-drugs-deaths/

[Santa Cruz]

Is there any data as to the age range of the 1300 deaths. Are these older habitual drug users, younger people who had only just started?

Breakdown in a spreadsheet in this report. Apologies if already posted.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2021/drug-related-deaths-rise

[ronaldo7]

According to the Herald it was published last month:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19399274.tories-publish-right-rehab-plans-tackle-drugs-deaths/

Ah, that's just the plans. I wondered why MSP's were asking them to publish the draft bill. :aok:

Let's see what they have in the actual bill itself, and hope all parties can support it.

[Killiehibbie]

It's been said before, but I don't think England break their numbers down into areas, at least publicly. It might be useful if they did, in order to see how our numbers (presumably, most in the Central Belt) compare with the inner cities of England.

And thats not about whataboutery, or political point scoring. It's about seeing what, eg, Manchester is doing that Glasgow isn't, and vice versa, in the spirit of co-operation and education.
I've read before that some English areas have a death rate every bit as bad as Scotland.

[He's here!]

Ah, that's just the plans. I wondered why MSP's were asking them to publish the draft bill. :aok:

Let's see what they have in the actual bill itself, and hope all parties can support it.

Today was the first I'd read about it but the proposals seem sound enough and it clearly has strong support among campaign groups (says here the bill has been published but guessing that might be mistake):

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19477516.support-right-recovery-bill-ahead-new-drug-death-statistics/

[Santa Cruz]

One of the aims of decrim is to take out the need for the gangs. By bringing supply into State control, it both removes the dealer and guarantees safer product for the user

Decriminalisation doesn’t remove the illegal supply in any way. That would be regulation or legalisation. Decriminalisation only means that those found with pre specified amounts of illegal drugs wouldn’t be prosecuted.

[CropleyWasGod]

Decriminalisation doesn’t remove the illegal supply in any way. That would be regulation or legalisation. Decriminalisation only means that those found with pre specified amounts of illegal drugs wouldn’t be prosecuted.

I'm using the word as shorthand for moving drug policy from criminal justice to health. I'm aware that it has different definitions in different parts of the world, indeed in the minds of many in this country who have an interest.

[Santa Cruz]

The Scottish government is clueless about this . They think giving junkies free drugs and a nice room to jack up in solves the problem . Absolute nutters . What next free whisky for alcoholics

Suggest you read this

Taskforce Condemns Unacceptable Stigmatising Language and Derogatory Tone of News Reportage.

https://drugdeathstaskforce.scot/news/taskforce-condemns-unacceptable-stigmatising-language-and-derogatory-tone-of-news-reportage-1/

[Santa Cruz]

I'm using the word as shorthand for moving drug policy from criminal justice to health. I'm aware that it has different definitions in different parts of the world, indeed in the minds of many in this country who have an interest.

Fair enough but taking a true public health approach to drug use will take a lot more than just decriminalisation. It would remove a lot of the stigma that currently exists by criminalising vulnerable people though.

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair enough but taking a true public health approach to drug use will take a lot more than just decriminalisation. It would remove a lot of the stigma that currently exists by criminalising vulnerable people though.

I know that, and agree with it. There's a lot of jargon used, which is confusing. For me, though, it boils down to putting the needs of the user at the centre of policy. Everything else flows from that.

[Santa Cruz]

I know that, and agree with it. There's a lot of jargon used, which is confusing. For me, though, it boils down to putting the needs of the user at the centre of policy. Everything else flows from that.

Agree a person centred approach is needed and SG are working towards that with the £250 million budget allocation over the next 5 years. It’s not easy though. There’s a lot more to be done within the current laws but Westminster is refusing to change a drug law that is now 50 years old. It’s hard to help folk when they’re constantly being dragged through a criminal justice system that they’re barely able to navigate. These people get so low that they feel sub human yet posters on this thread and the media refer to them as junkies, low life’s etc. God forbid it was ever one of their own.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree a person centred approach is needed and SG are working towards that with the £250 million budget allocation over the next 5 years. It’s not easy though. There’s a lot more to be done within the current laws but Westminster is refusing to change a drug law that is now 50 years old. It’s hard to help folk when they’re constantly being dragged through a criminal justice system that they’re barely able to navigate. These people get so low that they feel sub human yet posters on this thread and the media refer to them as junkies, low life’s etc. God forbid it was ever one of their own.

The weird thing about this is that just about every person I know thinks the same and yet it remains illegal. It’s weird.


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[CropleyWasGod]

The weird thing about this is that just about every person I know thinks the same and yet it remains illegal. It’s weird.


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Simple answer, Oz.

Stop surrounding yourself with weirdos.

[Jamesie]

One of the aims of decrim is to take out the need for the gangs. By bringing supply into State control, it both removes the dealer and guarantees safer product for the user

I see this quoted quite a lot but I vehemently disagree with the premise. By way of comparator, tobacco is legal, but it doesn’t prevent contraband product being sold by third parties in competition to the State-sanctioned manufacturers. So we should be very careful indeed when it comes to considering decriminalisation or regulation as some sort of panacea.

[Ozyhibby]

I see this quoted quite a lot but I vehemently disagree with the premise. By way of comparator, tobacco is legal, but it doesn’t prevent contraband product being sold by third parties in competition to the State-sanctioned manufacturers. So we should be very careful indeed when it comes to considering decriminalisation or regulation as some sort of panacea.

The state isn’t giving tobacco away free though?


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[Jamesie]

The state isn’t giving tobacco away free though?


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Neither will they if drugs are legalisation / regulation operates under State control though, will they?

[Ozyhibby]

Neither will they if drugs are legalisation / regulation operates under State control though, will they?

They give methadone away free? I’m not talking about weed and coke. I’m talking about the serious heroine users who are addicted. If you deal with them through the health system then it will kill that part of the market for criminals. What’s the point on getting someone addicted to heroine if all they do once they are addicted is to get it free of the state?
These are the users who are the ones dying and most in need of help.


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58038975

Pretty lame of the National to lead on some inconsequential story about the Lib Dems when you see the blanket coverage of the drugs issue elsewhere.

[Keith_M]

There's a building with 'safe rooms' in one of the train stations in Vienna where addicts go to take Methodone and (I think) are allowed to remain for a while.

It's apparently part of a scheme across most of Austria.

I think the proposal is to have something similar over here.

[CropleyWasGod]

They give methadone away free? I’m not talking about weed and coke. I’m talking about the serious heroine users who are addicted. If you deal with them through the health system then it will kill that part of the market for criminals. What’s the point on getting someone addicted to heroine if all they do once they are addicted is to get it free of the state?
These are the users who are the ones dying and most in need of help.


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A few years ago, a drugs worker in Leith told me that, if they (the State) could guarantee the quality of heroin, they'd have a queue round the block next morning of every user in Lothian.

[Ozyhibby]

A few years ago, a drugs worker in Leith told me that, if they (the State) could guarantee the quality of heroin, they'd have a queue round the block next morning of every user in Lothian.

And at a stroke wipe out a billion pound criminal enterprise. The real benefit would be long term though, as a new generation of potential drug users are no longer offered opiates because what would be the point for drug dealers if you can just go and get them from the state for free?


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[Peevemor]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58038975

Pretty lame of the National to lead on some inconsequential story about the Lib Dems when you see the blanket coverage of the drugs issue elsewhere.Open your eyes.

And in any case, it's a bit daft to use what the National does as a way to have a pop at the SNP or the SG.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210731/c7904e32e5115478bd5a22278ec5a08d.jpg

[Scouse Hibee]

Have spent a lot of time over the years in previous employment chatting to junkie **** as I used to call them. After talking to so many of them and hearing their stories of how it all started I very soon became aware of how easy and sad it was for them to have become addicts for various reasons. Some really sad stories of how decent people have been dragged down by addiction. Some of the saddest was that of peer pressure in youngsters.

[Crunchie]

Have spent a lot of time over the years in previous employment chatting to junkie **** as I used to call them. After talking to so many of them and hearing their stories of how it all started I very soon became aware of how easy and sad it was for them to have become addicts for various reasons. Some really sad stories of how decent people have been dragged down by addiction.

I've lost count of the amount of people I know who have died of a drug overdose, some great people who you would never in a million years think would get into that lifestyle, way more intelligent than most but not where it mattered unfortunately.
Education from an early age is the only way forward and ramped up as the kids go up a year, and showing them the long term effects drugs have on themselves and family.
Unfortunately this govt will be like every other and pour the money into the some organisation who'll eat most of the money up in admin costs and other bs.

[500miles]

A mate of mine deals with a lot of addicts as a pharmacist, and his take on it is that the system is too dependent on Methadone. The problem is if we move away from that, there would likely be a short term spike in deaths and crime, and that would be politically difficult to the point where it would undermine the new system, even if it were to be better long term.

[makaveli1875]

And at a stroke wipe out a billion pound criminal enterprise. The real benefit would be long term though, as a new generation of potential drug users are no longer offered opiates because what would be the point for drug dealers if you can just go and get them from the state for free?


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Your mental . A new generation of drug users are going to be able to get it for free going with your brainwave .

[Ozyhibby]

Your mental . A new generation of drug users are going to be able to get it for free going with your brainwave .

You think that’s how people fall into heroin abuse? Do you honestly think a first time user is just going to rock up at a clinic and say I’d like to become addicted to heroine?


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[makaveli1875]

You think that’s how people fall into heroin abuse? Do you honestly think a first time user is just going to rock up at a clinic and say I’d like to become addicted to heroine?


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In Scotland absolutely

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotland-introduce-life-saving-drug-24682249.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This is a good move.[emoji106]


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotland-introduce-life-saving-drug-24682249.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This is a good move.[emoji106]


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Yup.

Might make the UK Gov sit up and think about it, considering England and Wales had the worst figures on record announced yesterday.

We all need to do more.

[Skol]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotland-introduce-life-saving-drug-24682249.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This is a good move.[emoji106]


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I am in two minds on this. I can see this would be a good immediate/short term options and support this regardless of Westminster, but I dont think it is part of the longer term solution.

[silverhibee]

They give methadone away free? I’m not talking about weed and coke. I’m talking about the serious heroine users who are addicted. If you deal with them through the health system then it will kill that part of the market for criminals. What’s the point on getting someone addicted to heroine if all they do once they are addicted is to get it free of the state?
These are the users who are the ones dying and most in need of help.


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Sure there are plenty of folk who are taking coke are committing crime to pay for it, and I would say cocaine use is a bigger problem in Edinburgh than folk taking herion.

Why do we help one group and not the others.

[Ozyhibby]

Sure there are plenty of folk who are taking coke are committing crime to pay for it, and I would say cocaine use is a bigger problem in Edinburgh than folk taking herion.

Why do we help one group and not the others.

It’s mostly heroin users who are dying?
They are very different drugs with very different user profiles. It’s not a case of not helping one group or the other, more that the solutions for both will be different.


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[Bristolhibby]

This has been pretty quiet in the news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58070848

[Kato]

This has been pretty quiet in the news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58070848"She added: "The government needs to wake up to the fact that cuts to services, disconnecting NHS mental health services from addiction services and shifting the focus away from harm reduction to abstinence-based recovery is destroying lives and fuelling the increase in drug-related deaths."

It's like they cut these vital links to various services and underfund them deliberately.

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[beensaidbefore]

Sure there are plenty of folk who are taking coke are committing crime to pay for it, and I would say cocaine use is a bigger problem in Edinburgh than folk taking herion.

Why do we help one group and not the others.

Sure there will be some folk, but not on the same scale and not as visible to the average person. People addicted to coke are not hanging about street corners asking for spare change, stealing meats from the local supermarket and generally making a nuisance of themselves, that tends to be people addicted to opiates.

There is no one size fits all approach so we need to have different approached for different drugs. One problem ,imo, is more often than not the policy makers and people proposing ways of tackling drug abuse and addiction have little to none practical experience of working/living with addiction, whereas the opinions of people with lived experiences are all too often overlooked.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-58092735.amp

Looks like we have to do as we are told.


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[speedy_gonzales]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-58092735.amp

Looks like we have to do as we are told.


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So frustrating that the P frickin' M doesn't understand, or isn't getting correctly advised on what safe "drug consumption" rooms are.
They're not there to encourage people to take more drugs, they're there to facilitate the safe taking of drugs and offer support for those that need it. They're not billed as the silver bullet, they're just one tool/instrument available to help those that need it.
By all means, attack the supply head on, but at the same time, we need to ****** the numbers dying unnecessarily.

[WeeRussell]

So frustrating that the P frickin' M doesn't understand, or isn't getting correctly advised on what safe "drug consumption" rooms are.
They're not there to encourage people to take more drugs, they're there to facilitate the safe taking of drugs and offer support for those that need it. They're not billed as the silver bullet, they're just one tool/instrument available to help those that need it.
By all means, attack the supply head on, but at the same time, we need to ****** the numbers dying unnecessarily.

Yep, appeared to make light of the rooms and showed a complete lack of understanding of what these things are, and then went on to finish by basically saying he wants to punish those most at risk of drug-death harder.

[silverhibee]

Sure there will be some folk, but not on the same scale and not as visible to the average person. People addicted to coke are not hanging about street corners asking for spare change, stealing meats from the local supermarket and generally making a nuisance of themselves, that tends to be people addicted to opiates.

There is no one size fits all approach so we need to have different approached for different drugs. One problem ,imo, is more often than not the policy makers and people proposing ways of tackling drug abuse and addiction have little to none practical experience of working/living with addiction, whereas the opinions of people with lived experiences are all too often overlooked.

Maybe because the price of coke is so high that you won’t get much begging for change or stealing from shops, maybe your casual coke head is the one out breaking in to houses and stealing high end cars to order and what else they get from that crime, herion user may only need to get £20 a day where a coke user will want a £100 a day, I would think that a lot of the young suicides over the last year or so may be down to a coke habit as well, would think you will get more depressed from not having coke, where a herion user will rattle until they get the next fix, no matter what it’s a bloody shame but it won’t change, as someone else said, there is a war going on in Edinburgh for the control of selling drugs and the police are not doing a very good job of getting it sorted, shootings and gang attacks are quite common here nowadays but we aren’t being told about it by police/ press, different reporting from through in the west to what is being reported in the capital.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe because the price of coke is so high that you won’t get much begging for change or stealing from shops, maybe your casual coke head is the one out breaking in to houses and stealing high end cars to order and what else they get from that crime, herion user may only need to get £20 a day where a coke user will want a £100 a day, I would think that a lot of the young suicides over the last year or so may be down to a coke habit as well, would think you will get more depressed from not having coke, where a herion user will rattle until they get the next fix, no matter what it’s a bloody shame but it won’t change, as someone else said, there is a war going on in Edinburgh for the control of selling drugs and the police are not doing a very good job of getting it sorted, shootings and gang attacks are quite common here nowadays but we aren’t being told about it by police/ press, different reporting from through in the west to what is being reported in the capital.

It’s mental that we leave the distribution of narcotics to organised crime groups. The whole lot should be legalised. It’s need dealt with as a health problem.


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[Crunchie]

It’s mental that we leave the distribution of narcotics to organised crime groups. The whole lot should be legalised. It’s need dealt with as a health problem.


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It's mental you would even type that.

We are facilitating drug use in the form of methadone and the death rate has gone from 251 in 2015 to 708 in 2020 and you want more drugs available?

[beensaidbefore]

Maybe because the price of coke is so high that you won’t get much begging for change or stealing from shops, maybe your casual coke head is the one out breaking in to houses and stealing high end cars to order and what else they get from that crime, herion user may only need to get £20 a day where a coke user will want a £100 a day, I would think that a lot of the young suicides over the last year or so may be down to a coke habit as well, would think you will get more depressed from not having coke, where a herion user will rattle until they get the next fix, no matter what it’s a bloody shame but it won’t change, as someone else said, there is a war going on in Edinburgh for the control of selling drugs and the police are not doing a very good job of getting it sorted, shootings and gang attacks are quite common here nowadays but we aren’t being told about it by police/ press, different reporting from through in the west to what is being reported in the capital.


I understand your point mate, but I'm not sure where you are getting your info. £100 for a coke addict per day? That's how much 1 gram costs. An addict is going to get through more than one gram a day, so you are looking at a bout 3-4 hundred a day. Chances are they buy a bit and sell a bit to try and fund their habit, reduce costs etc. Then they end up in debt to their dealer to the tune of hundreds or thousands cos they ended up sniffing it all instead of selling it. etc This is where the real trouble starts. How do you get out of your dealers pocket?

I know people addicted to coke and have seen them blow 10s of thousands of pounds, they hold down a job, they have a family, a mortgage, and in some ways you wouldn't even know. I cant say the same about heroin. Spend half an hr at the Kirkgate to see the difference.

Both terrible addictions, but completely different and require completely different approached to tackle them.

[beensaidbefore]

It's mental you would even type that.

We are facilitating drug use in the form of methadone and the death rate has gone from 251 in 2015 to 708 in 2020 and you want more drugs available?


How many of those people died of methadone? I'm not sure where those figures are from, but I would suggest just giving people drugs is not the solution.

In my opinion there needs to be a joined up multi-agency approach. Identify drug users, engage with them(that means not be a patronising condescending arse who thinks they know it all) try to help them reduce intake supported by some kind of drug testing and treatment order. Engage with the drug users on a personal level, learn about them as individuals, and then sign post them to the appropriate areas for help.

Some folk will say why bother, bit all that does is reinforce the problem.

[beensaidbefore]

It’s mental that we leave the distribution of narcotics to organised crime groups. The whole lot should be legalised. It’s need dealt with as a health problem.


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Correct, we would make a fortune that could be reinvested in the best rehabilitation money could buy.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's mental you would even type that.

We are facilitating drug use in the form of methadone and the death rate has gone from 251 in 2015 to 708 in 2020 and you want more drugs available?

Not more drugs but safer drugs and a safer environment where they can be administered with help at hand to help addicts beat their habit. The problem with drugs being illegal is the ancillary problems that come with that, once you've cut out the dealers you'll cut out the drug barons and drug trafficking and gang related drug violence. You'll also cut out the need for addicts to commit crime to feed their habit. It's not rocket science and the pros far outweigh the cons.

[Since90+2]

Not more drugs but safer drugs and a safer environment where they can be administered with help at hand to help addicts beat their habit. The problem with drugs being illegal is the ancillary problems that come with that, once you've cut out the dealers you'll cut out the drug barons and drug trafficking and gang related drug violence. You'll also cut out the need for addicts to commit crime to feed their habit. It's not rocket science and the pros far outweigh the cons.

You also eliminate the issue of addicts not knowing what they are taking and overdosing on substances like fentanyl.

[Hibrandenburg]

You also eliminate the issue of addicts not knowing what they are taking and overdosing on substances like fentanyl.

:agree: That's what I meant by safer drugs.

[Crunchie]

How many of those people died of methadone? I'm not sure where those figures are from, but I would suggest just giving people drugs is not the solution.

In my opinion there needs to be a joined up multi-agency approach. Identify drug users, engage with them(that means not be a patronising condescending arse who thinks they know it all) try to help them reduce intake supported by some kind of drug testing and treatment order. Engage with the drug users on a personal level, learn about them as individuals, and then sign post them to the appropriate areas for help.

Some folk will say why bother, bit all that does is reinforce the problem.
They are the methadone overdose deaths, all of them. Those figures are from National Records of Scotland.

[Crunchie]

Not more drugs but safer drugs and a safer environment where they can be administered with help at hand to help addicts beat their habit. The problem with drugs being illegal is the ancillary problems that come with that, once you've cut out the dealers you'll cut out the drug barons and drug trafficking and gang related drug violence. You'll also cut out the need for addicts to commit crime to feed their habit. It's not rocket science and the pros far outweigh the cons.
Safer as in methadone you mean? what safer environment do you want? they go into a closed booth in a chemist or a doctors surgery. A rocket scientist you are not.

[JeMeSouviens]

They are the methadone overdose deaths, all of them. Those figures are from National Records of Scotland.

They are overdose deaths where methadone was present. If you add up all the individual drug totals they are way in excess of the total number of deaths. Hence, a proportion of the methadone deaths must also have involved other drugs which may or may not have been more significant (but likely would be given the safety profile of the prescribed methadone vs the other drugs).

[CropleyWasGod]

Safer as in methadone you mean? what safer environment do you want? they go into a closed booth in a chemist or a doctors surgery. A rocket scientist you are not.

I'm not sure that you understand the concept of Harm Reduction. The user is guaranteed a safer supply than they are currently getting, thus reducing the potential harms until they are ready and able to reduce their consumption.

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have been involved in Harm Reduction in various areas for over 25 years.

[Hibrandenburg]

Safer as in methadone you mean? what safer environment do you want? they go into a closed booth in a chemist or a doctors surgery. A rocket scientist you are not.

The numbers quoted earlier regarding methadone were where methadone was one of several drugs present in deaths due to polysubstance abuse. Methadone is the least likely ingredient in the cocktail of drugs to have actually caused death in the vast majority of cases, strengthening the argument that supply needs to be taken out the hands of unscrupulous dealers who will cut in all sorts of **** to increase a profit. You're right, I'm not a rocket scientist but it's not rocket science.

[Ozyhibby]

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

Just copy what works elsewhere. Although I would go further than even Portugal went.
We are wasting £billions on the war on drugs and we are still losing. Portugal have shown the way forward.


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[beensaidbefore]

They are the methadone overdose deaths, all of them. Those figures are from National Records of Scotland.


interesting,but as others before me have highlighted, that's not proof that methadone was cause of death. It probably hasn't helped them, but it is surely better than buying a bag of whatever it is from some random on a street corner then injecting that directly into your blood stream.

Its a bit like the argument that cannabis is a gateway drug. I had a conversation with en educated guy who believed his daughter was taking loads of coke because she used to smoke hash. If that was the case, everyone would follow that pathway, but people dont always. There are plenty people who enjoy a smoke but never touch anything harder. I know people who dont smoke, never have and woudln't dream of it who would take an ecstasy in a nightclub. Where woudl they fit into the grand scheme of things?

What i'm getting at is, there is no one answer that is going to solve the Scotlands drug problems. If we made an attempt at regulating it, helping those who choose to take whatever drugs for whatever reasons by providing 'safe' areas for consumption, where there were social workers, nurses, psychiatrists working collectively to offer non-judgemental support, then this has got to be better than what we have now, no?

It would take it out of the public eye (to an extent), lessen the strain on emergency services, help to give the drug users some kind of self esteem to want to tackle the problem, and most importantly, help them find a pathway to a better future. If all a person has to aspire to is hanging around with the same people and doing the same things as before, what is the real incentive to quit any kind of destructive behaviour.?

That means access to education and ways to build skills. Employment opportunities, and ultimately ways of providing a fresh start, be that moving people to new communities, giving them a house away from people they find troublesome, etc etc etc.


The alternative is we have this same conversation and create a them and us type debate.

[Betty Boop]

I'm not sure that you understand the concept of Harm Reduction. The user is guaranteed a safer supply than they are currently getting, thus reducing the potential harms until they are ready and able to reduce their consumption.

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have been involved in Harm Reduction in various areas for over 25 years.


Then you'll be well aware that the Scottish Government has cut funding for drug programmes and services for years, while asking for powers for shooting galleries.

[CropleyWasGod]

Then you'll be well aware that the Scottish Government has cut funding for drug programmes and services for years, while asking for powers for shooting galleries.

Yep.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/police-can-now-issue-warnings-for-the-possession-of-class-a-drugs?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

A small change but it’s a start. Baby steps and all that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Can Scotland legalise any drugs or is that not devolved. Seems bizarre most of the US has legalised weed before us

[Killiehibbie]

Can Scotland legalise any drugs or is that not devolved. Seems bizarre most of the US has legalised weed before us

Must be reserved as consumption rooms were vetoed.

[Stairway 2 7]

Must be reserved as consumption rooms were vetoed.

It's depressing, criminalising people doesn't help just wish the tories cared

[beensaidbefore]

Very positive move. At the very least it's going to save time and money for the police and courts.

[GRA]

The new policies and investment are a step in the right direction but will take a wee while for it to kick in and deaths to start to decrease.

Thing is, funding to residential rehab facilities and Alcohol & Drug Partnerships was cut years ago, despite evidence and warnings from campaigning groups not to do so otherwise deaths would start to shoot up.

Government colleagues, mainly civil servants with no grasp of reality, ignored this and only just started to act when deaths became astronomical. They should have listened to advice years ago. Shocking.

[stuart-farquhar]

Cannabis needs to be legalised and sold in controlled stores. Works fine here in the USA and although I've smoked a couple it hasn't made me change my Pilsner habit!