Kezia resigns as Scottish Labour Leader

[JeMeSouviens]

True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.

The polling suggests it pushed about 10% of Nos to Yes, but around the same number went the other way. :rolleyes:

[--------]

Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.


:agree:

[Pete]

So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.

Good post. While Brexit and the Union are important issues, any party who spearheads their campaign with them could be in for a shock.
I know it’s all intertwined but things like housing, the NHS, nationalisation etc...are the issues that are with people every day at the coal face while others might seem like processes that won’t have an immediate effect on the way they live.

[JeMeSouviens]

So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.


All the leaking coming out of the talks suggest only 3 options are on offer:

- Norway, ie. stay in single market, accept freedom of movement
- Canada, much more limited free trade deal
- Off the cliff with no deal

The EU appears to have neither the will nor the desire to negotiate anything bespoke between the first 2, it's one or the other.

[Hibrandenburg]

All the leaking coming out of the talks suggest only 3 options are on offer:

- Norway, ie. stay in single market, accept freedom of movement
- Canada, much more limited free trade deal
- Off the cliff with no deal

The EU appears to have neither the will nor the desire to negotiate anything bespoke between the first 2, it's one or the other.

As it has been from the very beginning. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.

[JeMeSouviens]

As it has been from the very beginning. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.

The UK has caved on the talks timetable, caved on status of citizens, caved on the divorce bill. Next up is the Irish border ... It is quite incredible how much more united 27 countries have been than 1 cabinet. :rolleyes:

I'm still hoping for de facto permanent transition ...

[Hibrandenburg]

So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.

Nice attempt to brush off the relevance of leaving the EU in post Brexit Scotland but we both know it is of utmost relevance to the majority of Scots and therefore doesn't wash. The independence question will not go away suddenly just because Labour has suddenly remembered it is a left wing party after years of trying to imitate the Tories. Trade and free movement within Europe has been fundamental in Scotland's rise in living standards with the EU investing funds into areas that Westminster have neglected for centuries.

The UK Brexit negotiations team are delusional if they think that they can in any way have their cake and eat it. Once the button gets pressed we will be living outside the EU trading zone and the benefits that that brings. The illusion that we will still be able to keep an open border in Ireland is completely delusional and will all but kill the Good Friday Agreement and open up old sectarian wounds and all the political fallout from that.

Post-war Britain was competing with individual European countries in the market and could barely hold it's head above water, joining the EU was a matter of survival and has served the UK well but nowhere more than in Scotland. We now don't just have to compete with individual countries in our neighbourhood but the single largest trading block in The world. The political price in Scotland will be paid by those who have instigated and supported Brexit and to ignore the repercussions of our reluctant exit is delusional. So yes, believing Brexit can possibly be advantageous for Scotland is delusional.

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK has caved on the talks timetable, caved on status of citizens, caved on the divorce bill. Next up is the Irish border ... It is quite incredible how much more united 27 countries have been than 1 cabinet. :rolleyes:

I'm still hoping for de facto permanent transition ...

Here is the solution to Britain understanding the issues of Ireland

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/11/29/irish-history-to-be-written-on-side-of-a-bus-for-british-people/?utm_source=WWN_Twitter_Account&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article