Kezia resigns as Scottish Labour Leader

[High-On-Hibs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41082916
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41082916)
She can slaver all she wants, but I think it's obvious to everybody why she is stepping down.

[cabbageandribs1875]

imo she's a decent individual and it wasn't pleasant seeing her screwing her face up and gritting her teeth, it just didn't suit her,she should have left that kind of bitterness to ruth davidson, still.. now she has plenty time to watch the hibs and carry on disliking that horrible little sleekit cretin corbyn and his followers in the scottish branch of Labour :agree:

[High-On-Hibs]

imo she's a decent individual and it wasn't pleasant seeing her screwing her face up and gritting her teeth, it just didn't suit her,she should have left that kind of bitterness to ruth davidson, still.. now she has plenty time to watch the hibs and carry on disliking that horrible little sleekit cretin corbyn and his followers in the scottish branch of Labour :agree:

Dugdale is no saint. She was happy to cling on to the gravy train for as long as possible, knowing full well how she was ultimately going to be treated by the master branch. SLAB is a joke and she knew it was a joke. However, it was a joke that paid good money for doing so little.

[marinello59]

A decent politician but not a great leader. It is time for her to step down.

[High-On-Hibs]

A decent politician but not a great leader. It is time for her to step down.

Doubt it was by choice to be honest. She was told it was her time.

[snooky]

Totally out her depth as a party leader since day one.

Kinda made the same faux pas as Dick Clegg.
i.e. sacrificed a lifetime career for a brief moment in the spotlight.
Ta-ra! Followed by the big hook.

[Colr]

Any implocation that the Westminster party had her pushed will affect their recent little resurgence, I fear.

[ronaldo7]

Gerry Hassan, called it this week. The manoeuvring of Findlay and co have finally pushed her over the edge. Cheerio kez, see you behind the goals.

[lucky]

Neil Findlay won't be running for leadership and the left was not behind her decision. She has stood down for personal reasons. I expect to continue as a MSP until the next election. The early front runners are Richard Leonard, Alex Rowley and Anas Sarwar.

Unlike many on here I actually know her and don't necessarily agree with politics she is a decent MSP and decent person

[ronaldo7]

Neil Findlay won't be running for leadership and the left was not behind her decision. She has stood down for personal reasons. I expect to continue as a MSP until the next election. The early front runners are Richard Leonard, Alex Rowley and Anas Sarwar.

Unlike many on here I actually know her and don't necessarily agree with politics she is a decent MSP and decent person

She was facing a leadership challenge, and likely to lose, let's not put this down to personal reasons, although she may have seen the light. 💡

[stoneyburn hibs]

What is an acceptable amount of time before she joins the SNP ?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Neil Findlay won't be running for leadership and the left was not behind her decision. She has stood down for personal reasons. I expect to continue as a MSP until the next election. The early front runners are Richard Leonard, Alex Rowley and Anas Sarwar.

Unlike many on here I actually know her and don't necessarily agree with politics she is a decent MSP and decent person

Agree with this - a nice person, possibly too nice to be a party leader.

[ACLeith]

I first came across her at a public meeting in Leith in the run up to the referendum. TBH I had never heard of her before that night. Being a YES supporter I disagreed with what she said but she debated that night with NS in a constructive, reasoned and articulate way.

But when she became leader she had to play the game of being aggressive and confrontational and it just didn't seem to suit her. One of her predecessors, Ian Gray, seemed to me to be similar, a decent guy unsuited to being what his party expected of the leader.

Lucky implies he knows the reasons for her resignation and if they are personal then they should remain private. But when her relationship with the SNP MSP became public knowledge I wondered at the time that if it lasted then which one would switch parties. :rolleyes:

[High-On-Hibs]

Neil Findlay won't be running for leadership and the left was not behind her decision. She has stood down for personal reasons. I expect to continue as a MSP until the next election. The early front runners are Richard Leonard, Alex Rowley and Anas Sarwar.

Unlike many on here I actually know her and don't necessarily agree with politics she is a decent MSP and decent person

No she hasn't. Corbyn came up and told her to step down. That's what happened. If you believe any of the guff she's coming out with, then hopefully you're one of not too many.


Agree with this - a nice person, possibly too nice to be a party leader.

Like Jeremy Corbyn?

[hibsbollah]

Neil Findlay won't be running for leadership and the left was not behind her decision. She has stood down for personal reasons. I expect to continue as a MSP until the next election. The early front runners are Richard Leonard, Alex Rowley and Anas Sarwar.

Unlike many on here I actually know her and don't necessarily agree with politics she is a decent MSP and decent person

I've spoken to her on the phone once, (although this was down to gross stupidity on my part and not the result of being besties with her or anything) and she was extremely pleasant. The bottom line though, is like her protégé Iain Gray, she just wasn't convincing enough or a talented enough politician to properly challenge Nicola. And she got everything wrong tactically during the Corbyn coup.

[SHODAN]

Kezia Dugdale seems like a very nice person but she was still 1. part of the Blairite wing of the party and 2. obsessed with preventing independence as party policy, so even with Corbyn leading Labour I would never in a million years vote for her.

If Scottish Labour can elect a genuinely left-wing leader who focuses more on providing a socially democratic opposition and stop bleating on about stifling independence, they might win back a lot of Yes/SNP voters - myself included.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No she hasn't. Corbyn came up and told her to step down. That's what happened. If you believe any of the guff she's coming out with, then hopefully you're one of not too many.



Like Jeremy Corbyn?

I dont know, ive nevet met JC. And while he seems nice, he has some absolute hatchet men amd orrible types working closely with him (mcdonnell, and his momentum lot, for example).

[High-On-Hibs]

I dont know, ive nevet met JC. And while he seems nice, he has some absolute hatchet men amd orrible types working closely with him (mcdonnell, and his momentum lot, for example).

So you can't judge Jeremy Corbyn because you've never met him. However, that "momentum lot" are "orrible types". So I assume you've met every member of momentum?

[Pretty Boy]

Seemed like a decent enough person but she was hopeless as leader.

There's not exactly a queue of exciting names jockeying for position to take over either.

[JeMeSouviens]

Agree with sentiments above on KD: seems decent enough but hopeless.

God help them if they pick Sarwar.

[Geo_1875]

Agree with sentiments above on KD: seems decent enough but hopeless.

God help them if they pick Sarwar.

Or Jackie Baillie

[High-On-Hibs]

God help them if they pick Sarwar.


Or Jackie Baillie

Or Jim Murphy

Or Ian Murray

Or..... etc

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So you can't judge Jeremy Corbyn because you've never met him. However, that "momentum lot" are "orrible types". So I assume you've met every member of momentum?

Youre itching for an argument eh...

If you are going to act like an 8 year old, then there is no piint in engaging with you.

[heretoday]

Kezia Dugdale seems like a very nice person but she was still 1. part of the Blairite wing of the party and 2. obsessed with preventing independence as party policy, so even with Corbyn leading Labour I would never in a million years vote for her.

If Scottish Labour can elect a genuinely left-wing leader who focuses more on providing a socially democratic opposition and stop bleating on about stifling independence, they might win back a lot of Yes/SNP voters - myself included.

I think you're right.

[High-On-Hibs]

Youre itching for an argument eh...

If you are going to act like an 8 year old, then there is no piint in engaging with you.

If you don't have a direct response to what I believe was a valid point to make, then you're probably best not saying anything at all.

[Betty Boop]

I dont know, ive nevet met JC. And while he seems nice, he has some absolute hatchet men amd orrible types working closely with him (mcdonnell, and his momentum lot, for example).

Well I'm one of the Momentum lot, and I'm lovely. (nothing like blowing your ain trumpet) :greengrin

[beensaidbefore]

What is an acceptable amount of time before she joins the SNP ?

Please no. She is a terrible politician.

[beensaidbefore]

Seemed like a decent enough person but she was hopeless as leader.

There's not exactly a queue of exciting names jockeying for position to take over either.


Who would be mad enough to take it at the moment?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Who would be mad enough to take it at the moment?

Never underestimate a politician's ego...!!

[brianmc]

Panic over. Craig Levein has just appointed himself as new Scottish labour leader :)

[marinello59]

Panic over. Craig Levein has just appointed himself as new Scottish labour leader :)

:greengrin

[Smartie]

I like her.

It's a sorry indictment of modern society that being "nice" is considered to be a negative feature of a politician.

I think she's thoughtful, reflective, caring and a decent human being.

I happen to disagree with various political beliefs she holds but there you go.

We have an awful culture in politics and life in general in that the more ruthless an utter ******* you are, the more respect you get and the higher you seem to be able to climb.

She was unlucky to be a Unionist (?????????) Centre Left politician in Scotland at a time when that wasn't really a way to get anywhere in the political world. She picked up a poisoned chalice and struggled to do an impossible job.

I will welcome her move over to the good guys when she has decided that the time is right.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Well I'm one of the Momentum lot, and I'm lovely. (nothing like blowing your ain trumpet) :greengrin

I dont doubt it betty!

[RIP]

Never fails to disappoint me that in our personal lives we can respect friends / fellow Hibbies regardless of their political views yet be so intolerant and disparaging of politicians whom we don't know personally and who represents another party to the one we support.

I'm one of Labour's growing pro Home Rule element who has never regarded Scottish Labour as remotely Unionist. As an independence supporter who is not a nationalist I find much in Kezia to admire. No1 is her taste in football teams :flag:. Another is she is a good speaker on many subjects. She has conviction. She is a socialist if her belief systems are based more upon political theory and values than from a working class background or industrial experience.

She also has a private personal life which was revealed in the press against her prior wishes. In 2017 she fell in love with a bright, talented, beautiful MSP in Jenny Gilruth. I'm not convinced that a political old boy like Jeremy Corbyn would view a cross-party relationship as appropriate for a Scottish Labour leader and faced with the choice of love or a leadership role it may be that she has decided to put her relationship first. Conjecture I know but based upon some inside knowledge from within Labour party circles that the public announcement of their relationship raised some concerns over her judgement. It's certainly unusual for high profile politicians to cross party lines for love.

I'm not sure we can expect either to be switching to their opposing parties any time soon but I hope to start seeing Jenny at Easter Road on a regular basis. GGTTH!!

[marinello59]

Never fails to disappoint me that in our personal lives we can respect friends / fellow Hibbies regardless of their political views yet be so intolerant and disparaging of politicians whom we don't know personally and who represents another party to the one we support.

I'm one of Labour's growing pro Home Rule element who has never regarded Scottish Labour as remotely Unionist. As an independence supporter who is not a nationalist I find much in Kezia to admire. No1 is her taste in football teams :flag:. Another is she is a good speaker on many subjects. She has conviction. She is a socialist if her belief systems are based more upon political theory and values than from a working class background or industrial experience.

She also has a private personal life which was revealed in the press against her prior wishes. In 2017 she fell in love with a bright, talented, beautiful MSP in Jenny Gilruth. I'm not convinced that a political old boy like Jeremy Corbyn would view a cross-party relationship as appropriate for a Scottish Labour leader and faced with the choice of love or a leadership role it may be that she has decided to put her relationship first. Conjecture I know but based upon some inside knowledge from within Labour party circles that the public announcement of their relationship raised some concerns over her judgement. It's certainly unusual for high profile politicians to cross party lines for love.

I'm not sure we can expect either to be switching to their opposing parties any time soon but I hope to start seeing Jenny at Easter Road on a regular basis. GGTTH!!
Well said.

[lucky]

She was facing a leadership challenge, and likely to lose, let's not put this down to personal reasons, although she may have seen the light. 💡

She was not facing a challenge. The Scottish Left Review who have attacked her for the last few months have little sway in the party. The bottom line is that only 1 left wing candidate might stand everyone else has ruled themselves out. She stood down for personal reasons not anything else

[marinello59]

She was not facing a challenge. The Scottish Left Review who have attacked her for the last few months have little sway in the party. The bottom line is that only 1 left wing candidate might stand everyone else has ruled themselves out. She stood down for personal reasons not anything else

I would believe this but with SNP members claiming to have inside knowledge on this I'm not sure what to think. :greengrin

The moment that Nicola Sturgeon rather cynically betrayed a personal conversation during a GE debate visibly upset her, you could see she was shocked and hurt. I did wonder at the time if she would stay on much longer. Despite what we think there are still some politicians of all parties who will not abandon common decency for political gain. Charles Kennedy was one, Kezia Dugdale appears to be another.

[CropleyWasGod]

I would believe this but with SNP members claiming to have inside knowledge on this I'm not sure what to think. :greengrin

The moment that Nicola Sturgeon rather cynically betrayed a personal conversation during a GE debate visibly upset her, you could see she was shocked and hurt. I did wonder at the time if she would stay on much longer. Despite what we think there are still some politicians of all parties who will not abandon common decency for political gain. Charles Kennedy was one, Kezia Dugdale appears to be another.Ooyah. That last sentence.

I've been personally and professionally insulted by Kez for what appears to have been political gain. It's an old story that I've told a couple of times on here, so I'm not going to revisit it. I'm also willing to accept that she was young and inexperienced at the time, and was influenced by the party machinery.

Bottom line, though. She's a politician....which for many is a value judgment in itself [emoji3] She'll have to go some to prove her integrity to me....

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Ooyah. That last sentence.

I've been personally and professionally insulted by Kez for what appears to have been political gain. It's an old story that I've told a couple of times on here, so I'm not going to revisit it. I'm also willing to accept that she was young and inexperienced at the time, and was influenced by the party machinery.

Bottom line, though. She's a politician....which for many is a value judgment in itself [emoji3] She'll have to go some to prove her integrity to me....

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

I've missed that story then. Obviously I can't put my hands up to posting ***** without knowing it. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I would believe this but with SNP members claiming to have inside knowledge on this I'm not sure what to think. :greengrin

The moment that Nicola Sturgeon rather cynically betrayed a personal conversation during a GE debate visibly upset her, you could see she was shocked and hurt. I did wonder at the time if she would stay on much longer. Despite what we think there are still some politicians of all parties who will not abandon common decency for political gain. Charles Kennedy was one, Kezia Dugdale appears to be another.

That would be after Kez had given an interview in an MSM rag, but casually missed out the critical support for Indy2 comments, all in the aftermath of the Brexit result.

[marinello59]

That would be after Kez had given an interview in an MSM rag, but casually missed out the critical support for Indy2 comments, all in the aftermath of the Brexit result.

It's was a private conversation and she denies what was actually said. You can spin it any way you like but it was a betrayal of trust by Sturgeon. That's what many politicians do though, you could say NS was just doing her job.

[ronaldo7]

It's was a private conversation and she denies what was actually said. You can spin it any way you like but it was a betrayal of trust by Sturgeon. That's what many politicians do though, you could say NS was just doing her job.

When challenged in parliament, Kez decided to back down. Not like her eh. You can spin it any way you like though.:greengrin

[marinello59]

When challenged in parliament, Kez decided to back down. Not like her eh. You can spin it any way you like though.:greengrin

You are totally ignoring the fact that your beloved leader betrayed a confidence. Not like you eh? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

You are totally ignoring the fact that your beloved leader betrayed a confidence. Not like you eh? :greengrin

Yours too.:aok:

I've not ignored anything on this story, unlike your post #37 which seems to paint Kez in a rather alluring light, when the facts actually tell a different story.

Each to their own though.:greengrin

[marinello59]

Yours too.:aok:

I've not ignored anything on this story, unlike your post #37 which seems to paint Kez in a rather alluring light, when the facts actually tell a different story.

Each to their own though.:greengrin

:faf:

[ronaldo7]

So, let the battle commence. Dick, meet Anas.

[High-On-Hibs]

For such an anti-nationalist, he doesn't half hold a pro-nationalistic view when it comes to the Labour leadership in Scotland.

[steakbake]

I felt sorry in some ways for Kezia. Sometimes sincere, at times passionate but more often out of her depth. I think she was meant for something better than politics, which often it seems, makes good people pretend they believe some pretty strange things.

[Future17]

So, let the battle commence. Dick, meet Anas.

Childish and immature...but made me laugh. :-)

[ronaldo7]

Labour hustings tonight.

Announcement that there's to be no questions about candidates financial arrangements or domestic circumstances.

Open and transparent then. :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

Labour hustings tonight.

Announcement that there's to be no questions about candidates financial arrangements or domestic circumstances.

Open and transparent then. :rolleyes:

Surely their domestic arrangements are their own affair.:confused:
I assume that questions about their financial arrangements were excluded last night to allow both candidates to talk about policy, things that will actually affect people's daily lives. . Seems reasonable, it could all have been bogged down with Sarwar getting grilled about the family business. He will come under plenty more scrutiny for that over the next month or so.

[pacoluna]

Surely their domestic arrangements are their own affair.:confused:
I assume that questions about their financial arrangements were excluded last night to allow both candidates to talk about policy, things that will actually affect people's daily lives. . Seems reasonable, it could all have been bogged down with Sarwar getting grilled about the family business. He will come under plenty more scrutiny for that over the next month or so.

surely someone who is standing to promote labour values that will effect peoples daily life should receive questions as to why a business he has shares/involvement in contradicts these values? not exactly transparent is it?

[marinello59]

surely someone who is standing to promote labour values that will effect peoples daily life should receive questions as to why a business he has shares/involvement in contradicts these values? not exactly transparent is it?

I am in no way going to defend Sarwar. If the Labour Party choose him as their leader in Scotland it will be one almighty own goal. The facts about what his family business does are already out there and he has already responded.
Concentrating on actual policy at a hustings event seems like a good idea to me, politicians of all parties seem happy to avoid doing that if they can.

[lucky]

Two big SNP supporters both commenting on internal Labour Party hustings. I'm sure the winner will be as open and transparent as all other party leaders in Holyrood

[ronaldo7]

Two big SNP supporters both commenting on internal Labour Party hustings. I'm sure the winner will be as open and transparent as all other party leaders in Holyrood

It was posted on Facebook by your one time comms guru Alan Roden(ex daily mail politico).

If he didn't want people to watch it, he shouldn't have posted it.

[marinello59]

Leonard must be the firm favourite now. The Labour mini-revival in Scotland may turn in to something more substantial if he can build on the Corbyn effect. Interesting times ahead.

[JeMeSouviens]

Leonard must be the firm favourite now. The Labour mini-revival in Scotland may turn in to something more substantial if he can build on the Corbyn effect. Interesting times ahead.

You would think so. Is it one member - one vote for the Scottish leadership?

[marinello59]

You would think so. Is it one member - one vote for the Scottish leadership?

I have no idea. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I have no idea. :greengrin

Sarwar's only hope is surely having enough of his dad's pals in good positions. If it's left to the membership the Corbynite should stroll it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I have no idea. :greengrin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Labour_Party_leadership_election,_2017#Pr ocedure


As with the previous leadership election, the election will be held under one-person-one-vote from an electorate of members, affiliated supporters and registered supporters.

Leadership candidates must be an MP, MSP or MEP, and need the support of at least 15%, or five, of the thirty-two Scottish Labour MPs, MSPs and MEPs.

Sarwar is toast.

[ronaldo7]

The truth is out there somewhere.:greengrin

I'd pay money to watch Rowley take on Baillie. :wink: and Kez is squawking like a young "free" bird, now the shackles are off.

https://t.co/fqciByj3Qy

https://t.co/n5ZNmZOd1Q

[One Day Soon]

The truth is out there somewhere.:greengrin

I'd pay money to watch Rowley take on Baillie. :wink: and Kez is squawking like a young "free" bird, now the shackles are off.

https://t.co/fqciByj3Qy

https://t.co/n5ZNmZOd1Q


This stuff is mostly true. It isn't the reason she resigned though.

Rowley is more of a threat to himself than anyone else is.

[Mibbes Aye]

This stuff is mostly true. It isn't the reason she resigned though.


The leaking of the manifesto before the official launch?

[marinello59]

The truth is out there somewhere.:greengrin

I'd pay money to watch Rowley take on Baillie. :wink: and Kez is squawking like a young "free" bird, now the shackles are off.

https://t.co/fqciByj3Qy

https://t.co/n5ZNmZOd1Q

It would be only be remarkable if the Corbynites had not been looking ahead to Dugdale going so they could get their own man in place. It's what politicians do. That doesn't mean she was pushed out though.

[G B Young]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/tom-peterkin-choosing-a-labour-leader-is-a-very-dirty-business-1-4572044

Shambolic stuff from Scottish Labour as usual. Welcome back to the branch office indeed.

Hopefully this will undermine any perceived Corbyn bounce north of the border. The prospect of Labour in government with truly repugnant individuals like McDonell in key positions is unthinkable. All the glad-handing self congratulatory guff at their conference was an instant turn-off and it would be delightful to see them fall flat on their faces.

[One Day Soon]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/tom-peterkin-choosing-a-labour-leader-is-a-very-dirty-business-1-4572044

Shambolic stuff from Scottish Labour as usual. Welcome back to the branch office indeed.

Happens in all parties, they're just usually all a lot more sensible in not washing their linen in public.

Hopefully this will undermine any perceived Corbyn bounce north of the border. The prospect of Labour in government with truly repugnant individuals like McDonell in key positions is unthinkable. All the glad-handing self congratulatory guff at their conference was an instant turn-off and it would be delightful to see them fall flat on their faces.

Labour aren't going to be in government for a very long time - and certainly not under Corbyn. Don't think I've ever witnessed a w4nkathon quite like this week's one from any other party. As to their leading figures, shallow and sinister doesn't even begin to cover it.

They'll do well enough to knacker the Nats up here and poorly enough to let the post-May Tories in again with a majority. Then of course it will all be somebody else's fault: the MSM, the centrists, Tony Blair, the MPs, anyone other than them.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm warming to this Leonard guy:

https://twitter.com/simon_telegraph/status/913040487338201089 :wink:

[Pete]

Good grief there's a lot of bitterness in the last two or three posts (enough to ruin any party) and it's almost as if some people are protesting too much.

Unfortunately, the devil for you guys is in the detail (policies) and they will shine through. All the accusations of chaos and backstabbing will be an afterthought as a united Labour Party emerges...something we should all be looking forward to (unless you're rich, a **** or someone who cares more about flags than people).

Positivity and social justice will prevail :thumbsup:

[G B Young]

I'm warming to this Leonard guy:

https://twitter.com/simon_telegraph/status/913040487338201089 :wink:

'Coment'. Looks like he employs the same press team as Ann Budge.

[G B Young]

Labour aren't going to be in government for a very long time - and certainly not under Corbyn. Don't think I've ever witnessed a w4nkathon quite like this week's one from any other party. As to their leading figures, shallow and sinister doesn't even begin to cover it.

I'd happily vote SNP to keep these bampots out and that's saying something.

[lucky]

Leonard was never had any part in Dugdale's resignation. She went for personal reasons. Rowley does not have the support or the power to take her out. As for the future I hope Leonard wins and it adds additional power to Corbyn. Change is coming and coming fast

[ronaldo7]

It would be only be remarkable if the Corbynites had not been looking ahead to Dugdale going so they could get their own man in place. It's what politicians do. That doesn't mean she was pushed out though.

I suppose she now knows what John Collins went through.

[ronaldo7]

Good grief there's a lot of bitterness in the last two or three posts (enough to ruin any party) and it's almost as if some people are protesting too much.

Unfortunately, the devil for you guys is in the detail (policies) and they will shine through. All the accusations of chaos and backstabbing will be an afterthought as a united Labour Party emerges...something we should all be looking forward to (unless you're rich, a **** or someone who cares more about flags than people).

Positivity and social justice will prevail :thumbsup:

Each to their own mate.:greengrin

On the subject of flags, I'm not sure this guy was singing from the same hymn sheet at the party conference this week, something about a red flag:wink:

19434

[Pete]

Each to their own mate.:greengrin

On the subject of flags, I'm not sure this guy was singing from the same hymn sheet at the party conference this week, something about a red flag:wink:

19434

My eyes!!

To be honest, if I had a tasty wee portfolio like Ian does, I'd be wanting to change the subject too. 😆

[One Day Soon]

My eyes!!

To be honest, if I had a tasty wee portfolio like Ian does, I'd be wanting to change the subject too. 😆


Portfolio?

[Pete]

Portfolio?

Sorry, I meant property portfolio.

[One Day Soon]

Sorry, I meant property portfolio.

What property portfolio?

[Pete]

What property portfolio?

His houses Edinburgh and London that generate rental income.

Does that not constitute a property portfolio?

[Mibbes Aye]

His houses Edinburgh and London that generate rental income.

Does that not constitute a property portfolio?

Does he rent out properties he owns in Edinburgh and London?

Genuinely didn't know that.

Do you know which areas and what the rough income is?

[One Day Soon]

His houses Edinburgh and London that generate rental income.

Does that not constitute a property portfolio?


You're saying that he owns a house in Edinburgh and in London, that he doesn't live in either of them and that he rents them out?

[Pete]

Does he rent out properties he owns in Edinburgh and London?

Genuinely didn't know that.

Do you know which areas and what the rough income is?

That's how I'm reading this, point number six.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24872/ian_murray/edinburgh_south

Correct me if I'm wrong...i might be, I'm in bed dying of flu :-(

[One Day Soon]

That's how I'm reading this, point number six.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24872/ian_murray/edinburgh_south

Correct me if I'm wrong...i might be, I'm in bed dying of flu :-(


Think you'll find that those are the homes he owns and uses in Edinburgh and London when he is working in the constituency in the case of the former and working in Westminster in the case of the latter. Almost certainly half shares because I'm guessing they will be co-owned by his partner/wife. So, no, I wouldn't call that a property portfolio.

[Pete]

Think you'll find that those are the homes he owns and uses in Edinburgh and London when he is working in the constituency in the case of the former and working in Westminster in the case of the latter. Almost certainly half shares because I'm guessing they will be co-owned by his partner/wife. So, no, I wouldn't call that a property portfolio.

That's what I initially thought.

However, I'm not sure they'd give him and his partner over £20k a year in rental income if that were the case.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's what I initially thought.

However, I'm not sure they'd give him and his partner over £20k a year in rental income if that were the case.Think your flu has got the better of you[emoji13]

It says worth over 100k and/or rental income of 10k. It's the "and/or" that has done you.... [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Pete]

Think your flu has got the better of you[emoji13]

It says worth over 100k and/or rental income of 10k. It's the "and/or" that has done you.... [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Turns out it was just man flu so I'm okay now. Apparently 😕

That's not how I read this:

6. Land and property portfolio: (i) value over £100,000 and/or (ii) giving rental income of over £10,000 a year

Half share in a house in Edinburgh: (i) and (ii). (Registered 29 June 2011)
From May 2017, half share in a flat in London: (i) and (ii). (Registered 20 June 2017)


It looks like both his (their) properties fall into the "and" categories as they have both one and two candles. Unless it's an admin error, it looks like wee porky is feathering his own nest rather nicely...talking Clovenstone while acting Babertonish.

Like I said originally, no wonder he wants to talk about Brexit while others are talking about the housing crisis and rent controls.

😂

[CropleyWasGod]

.

[snooky]

.

Okay, updated med report.
Pete's got man flu and CWG has a spot.

[CropleyWasGod]

Okay, updated med report.
Pete's got man flu and CWG has a spot.[emoji13] [emoji13] [emoji13]

The annoying thing about posting on my phone is that I canny delete stupid posts, like the one i was about to make there......

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

Turns out it was just man flu so I'm okay now. Apparently 😕

That's not how I read this:

6. Land and property portfolio: (i) value over £100,000 and/or (ii) giving rental income of over £10,000 a year

Half share in a house in Edinburgh: (i) and (ii). (Registered 29 June 2011)
From May 2017, half share in a flat in London: (i) and (ii). (Registered 20 June 2017)


It looks like both his (their) properties fall into the "and" categories as they have both one and two candles. Unless it's an admin error, it looks like wee porky is feathering his own nest rather nicely...talking Clovenstone while acting Babertonish.

Like I said originally, no wonder he wants to talk about Brexit while others are talking about the housing crisis and rent controls.

😂


Perhaps you are right. But what do you mean by feathering his own nest? If we assume for a moment that the edinburgh property was either his or his partner's before they became an item, what do you think they should have done with it? Are they not allowed to keep it and rent it out?

And why don't you want him discussing Brexit? Do you think its just a ploy to do down the divine Jeremy? A proportion of people are talking about housing and rent controls, a very much larger number of people are talking about the number one threat facing our country - Brexit.

Seems to me not talking about Brexit is the dereliction of duty. Now who is it that's trying to face every way on that one?

[G B Young]

Perhaps you are right. But what do you mean by feathering his own nest? If we assume for a moment that the edinburgh property was either his or his partner's before they became an item, what do you think they should have done with it? Are they not allowed to keep it and rent it out?

And why don't you want him discussing Brexit? Do you think its just a ploy to do down the divine Jeremy? A proportion of people are talking about housing and rent controls, a very much larger number of people are talking about the number one threat facing our country - Brexit.

Seems to me not talking about Brexit is the dereliction of duty. Now who is it that's trying to face every way on that one?

Spot on. If Corbyn hadn't been so feeble on the issue he could have actually helped to stop Brexit.

As for Ian Murray renting out a property, so bl**dy what? It's hardly an issue to compare with the swathes of multi million pound properties owned by foreign investors that sit empty in London. Better to rent to somebody who's looking for convenient accommodation than just leave the place empty surely.

The guy might be a yam but he does a decent job as a local MP.

[Pete]

Perhaps you are right. But what do you mean by feathering his own nest? If we assume for a moment that the edinburgh property was either his or his partner's before they became an item, what do you think they should have done with it? Are they not allowed to keep it and rent it out?

And why don't you want him discussing Brexit? Do you think its just a ploy to do down the divine Jeremy? A proportion of people are talking about housing and rent controls, a very much larger number of people are talking about the number one threat facing our country - Brexit.

Seems to me not talking about Brexit is the dereliction of duty. Now who is it that's trying to face every way on that one?

Personally, I couldn't care less if it was his partners or he'd won it in a raffle, I'd have them sell it as a house shouldn't be viewed as an investment or a way to make money. Realistically, I know there is a place for private rented accommodation but it's gone far too far and like it or not, what Ian is doing is very much part of the problem. Probably for another thread but I expect our MP's, especially Labour ones, not to make investments like this when we're in the middle of a housing crisis.

As for the Brexit thing, I'm actually split on what was discussed and how but that wasn't really my point.
I made a comment in reply to another post who suggested Ian Murray was unhappy by suggesting a cheeky reason why he might be. Call me cynical but I can't help but feel that he (or anyone other one of the ironically named Progress crew) would have brought up Fish farming had it the potential to destabilise the divine Mr Corbyn.
Here's another wee irony. Maybe if more collective attention had been paid to secondary things like the NHS, employment, housing and rail before 2016, we might not have had the protest vote and therefore wouldn't be having this conversation. 🤔

[One Day Soon]

Personally, I couldn't care less if it was his partners or he'd won it in a raffle, I'd have them sell it as a house shouldn't be viewed as an investment or a way to make money. Realistically, I know there is a place for private rented accommodation but it's gone far too far and like it or not, what Ian is doing is very much part of the problem. Probably for another thread but I expect our MP's, especially Labour ones, not to make investments like this when we're in the middle of a housing crisis.

Can't make head nor tail of what you are calling for here. Is your demand that:
a) Anyone with a spare property should be forced in law to sell it?
b) Only an MP with spare property should be forced in law to sell it?
c) An MP should be forced in law to sell it even if he only owns part of it?
d) We should have some private rented accommodation but only a certain amount which should be decided how?
e) It's okay for MPs to have these properties provided they bought or inherited them prior to the housing crisis, depending on how you determine what the crisis is and when it started?


As for the Brexit thing, I'm actually split on what was discussed and how but that wasn't really my point.
I made a comment in reply to another post who suggested Ian Murray was unhappy by suggesting a cheeky reason why he might be. Call me cynical but I can't help but feel that he (or anyone other one of the ironically named Progress crew) would have brought up Fish farming had it the potential to destabilise the divine Mr Corbyn.
Here's another wee irony. Maybe if more collective attention had been paid to secondary things like the NHS, employment, housing and rail before 2016, we might not have had the protest vote and therefore wouldn't be having this conversation. 🤔

So you do or don't think Ian Murray is banging on about Brexit to distract from the fact that he owns a property in London and another in Edinburgh? :confused: Call me cynical but I can't help feel that bringing up his 'property portfolio' is just a way of trying to attack him since he's not pro-Corbyn and won't keep quiet about Brexit. Brexit being just the most obvious issue on which Corbyn talks complete pi5h - "jobs first Brexit" my ar5e.

I think if you want the answer to why we have Brexit you need to go all the way back to the global financial crash of 2008 and the persistent stagnation which has followed (particularly the decline in the real value of wages) to find the source of the angst all across Western democracies. Maybe if Corbyn hadn't lost the last election we'd be either negotiating a more constructive exit or revisiting the whole decision.

[Pete]

Can't make head nor tail of what you are calling for here. Is your demand that:
a) Anyone with a spare property should be forced in law to sell it?
b) Only an MP with spare property should be forced in law to sell it?
c) An MP should be forced in law to sell it even if he only owns part of it?
d) We should have some private rented accommodation but only a certain amount which should be decided how?
e) It's okay for MPs to have these properties provided they bought or inherited them prior to the housing crisis, depending on how you determine what the crisis is and when it started?

What I want to see is safe housing that is affordable for everyone. A mass programme of social and affordable house building would provide that and take the heat out of the housing market, perhaps eliminating the need for restrictions regarding multiple property ownership. Rent controls and the end of tax breaks for buy-to-let landlords would also help.
If I was in charge of the Labour Party, I would indeed make MP's sell any second homes they had. Like I said, I'm not keen on people making profit from residential property so I'd do it as a matter of principle...show you are committed to a true Socialist agenda or exit stage left.

You in comrade?




I think if you want the answer to why we have Brexit you need to go all the way back to the global financial crash of 2008 and the persistent stagnation which has followed (particularly the decline in the real value of wages) to find the source of the angst all across Western democracies. Maybe if Corbyn hadn't lost the last election we'd be either negotiating a more constructive exit or revisiting the whole decision.

Firstly, it's a bit cruel to say that Corbyn "lost" the last election. The gains and momentum picked up were beyond all expectations and showed everyone that the left is indeed electable...after all these years of being told it was impossible too.
I agree about the financial crash being responsible though. What angers me is the fact that only bland alternatives to austerity were on offer up until fairly recently. If people had realised earlier that socialism was a real alternative then we might indeed not be in this position.
Better late than never though and no matter what happens regarding Brexit, I'm confident Mr. Corbyn will ensure that the British people will be the winners should he be the next PM :agree:

[One Day Soon]

What I want to see is safe housing that is affordable for everyone. A mass programme of social and affordable house building would provide that and take the heat out of the housing market, perhaps eliminating the need for restrictions regarding multiple property ownership. So far so good.

Rent controls and the end of tax breaks for buy-to-let landlords would also help. Beginning to lose me here, rent controls tend to reduce supply and see landlords selling off into owner occupation - not helpful in terms of labour mobility or student accommodation certainly. Not sure how good the tax breaks really are.

If I was in charge of the Labour Party, I would indeed make MP's sell any second homes they had. Like I said, I'm not keen on people making profit from residential property so I'd do it as a matter of principle...show you are committed to a true Socialist agenda or exit stage left. How would you propose to 'make' MP's sell second homes? I'm pretty sure that would be against their human rights. Would it be okay for the MP to transfer the ownership of the property to their partner? Or their children? Seems like pretty pointless gesture politics to me.

You in comrade? Not on this agenda as it stands no.




Firstly, it's a bit cruel to say that Corbyn "lost" the last election. The gains and momentum picked up were beyond all expectations and showed everyone that the left is indeed electable...after all these years of being told it was impossible too.
I agree about the financial crash being responsible though. What angers me is the fact that only bland alternatives to austerity were on offer up until fairly recently. If people had realised earlier that socialism was a real alternative then we might indeed not be in this position.
Better late than never though and no matter what happens regarding Brexit, I'm confident Mr. Corbyn will ensure that the British people will be the winners should he be the next PM :agree:

No, it showed that even against a car crash Tory leader like May and with the worst Tory electoral campaign anyone can recall/ Corbyn was unable to win - 63 seats short in fact. He lost the election, if he hadn't he would be in No 10.

There's only one way out of this and that is economic growth with the associated upswing in earnings, value of wages, tax receipts, increased public spending and reduced public debt. Quite apart from the question as to whether Corbyn's policies actually stack up in any meaningful way, the single biggest impediment to growth is Brexit.

Brexit doesn't end austerity it prolongs it - yet Corbyn peddles the fallacy that there's such a thing as a jobs first Brexit. He's basically in the same policy position as the Tories on Brexit.

[hibsbollah]

No, it showed that even against a car crash Tory leader like May and with the worst Tory electoral campaign anyone can recall/ Corbyn was unable to win - 63 seats short in fact. He lost the election, if he hadn't he would be in No 10.

There's only one way out of this and that is economic growth with the associated upswing in earnings, value of wages, tax receipts, increased public spending and reduced public debt. Quite apart from the question as to whether Corbyn's policies actually stack up in any meaningful way, the single biggest impediment to growth is Brexit.

Brexit doesn't end austerity it prolongs it - yet Corbyn peddles the fallacy that there's such a thing as a jobs first Brexit. He's basically in the same policy position as the Tories on Brexit.

I often wondered about you and similar posters on here from the old new Labour/Blairrite wing, what had happened to your belief system, how you consoled yourselves in being spectacularly wrong about Labour's future under Corbyn. The answer, in your case, seems to be a spectacular refusal to accept reality. I mean, I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe the tosh you've posted above. It's just a need to argue a position, isn't it? The Tory administration was only a 'car crash' when the Labour campaign and manifesto started to make it so, by systematically beating it on every issue in the campaign. You cant seriously argue that the biggest swing to Labour since 1945 is anything else than a resounding success for Corbyn? Can you? :faf:

The current sustained Labour lead in the UK polls is all the evidence you need of what has happened to Labour and the left over the last twelve months. Or do polls only have relevance when your horse happens to be ahead?

[CropleyWasGod]

On the specific question of "tax-breaks" (a phrase that rips my knitting"), the reliefs available aren't all that attractive to those who pay basic-rate tax. They are even less attractive to higher-rate taxpayers. It's that latter group that I think most people have their gripe with.... those landlords who buy up cheap flats for their BTL portfolio, thus pricing many out of the market.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

I often wondered about you and similar posters on here from the old new Labour/Blairrite wing, what had happened to your belief system, how you consoled yourselves in being spectacularly wrong about Labour's future under Corbyn. The answer, in your case, seems to be a spectacular refusal to accept reality. I mean, I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe the tosh you've posted above. It's just a need to argue a position, isn't it? The Tory administration was only a 'car crash' when the Labour campaign and manifesto started to make it so, by systematically beating it on every issue in the campaign. You cant seriously argue that the biggest swing to Labour since 1945 is anything else than a resounding success for Corbyn? Can you? :faf:

The current sustained Labour lead in the UK polls is all the evidence you need of what has happened to Labour and the left over the last twelve months. Or do polls only have relevance when your horse happens to be ahead?


Oh you've really bought the whole thing haven't you?

I often wondered about you and similar posters on here from the Corbynite wing, what had happened to your belief system, how you consoled yourselves in being spectacularly wrong about Labour's future under Corbyn. The answer in your case seems to be a spectacular refusal to accept the reality that he fought and lost the election. I mean, I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe the tosh you've posted above. It's just a need to defend the Corbynite position, isn't it?

I didn't mention the Tory administration, I mentioned May as their Leader and their election campaign. If Labour was the cause of their slump (it wasn't, May's catastrophic performance and the bizarre associated policy developments on eg Death Tax were the cause as you well know) by beating the Tories on every issue in the campaign, why didn't Labour win?

The biggest swing to Labour since 1945 isn't worth a light when it leaves you 63 seats from winning the election. An election which McDonnell said he and Corbyn would resign over if they lost BTW - when's that happening? And its worth even less in a politics where the other parties are ruthlessly squeezed.

Your comment on Corbyn's success is the most important however. Corbyn's resounding success was just that - a resounding success for him, because he didn't crash and burn as expected. So yes, he won the election he was fighting, the one to keep himself as Labour leader. Not such a resounding success for the poorest, most vulnerable families who now have to wait another four years for Labour to try again, all because of Corbyn's 'success'.

Maybe Labour can post copies of its opinion poll success to those people to cheer them up while they wait for an actual election in which governments can be changed. Though polls variously showing a marginal lead or level pegging won't bring a lot of four year comfort either.

Only the Corbynite left could celebrate an election defeat as victory, claim they want to end austerity by failing to oppose the Brexit that will deepen it and then have the leader show such spinelessness that he won't even allow the subject to be debated and voted on at conference. So much for Jeremy's new open politics eh?

[snooky]

.....Only the Corbynite left could celebrate an election defeat as victory, claim they want to end austerity by failing to oppose the Brexit that will deepen it and then have the leader show such spinelessness that he won't even allow the subject to be debated and voted on at conference. So much for Jeremy's new open politics eh?

Ahem, Ruth Davidson? :wink:

[Glory Lurker]

This is guid!

[Pete]

Oh you've really bought the whole thing haven't you?

I often wondered about you and similar posters on here from the Corbynite wing, what had happened to your belief system, how you consoled yourselves in being spectacularly wrong about Labour's future under Corbyn. The answer in your case seems to be a spectacular refusal to accept the reality that he fought and lost the election. I mean, I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe the tosh you've posted above. It's just a need to defend the Corbynite position, isn't it?

I didn't mention the Tory administration, I mentioned May as their Leader and their election campaign. If Labour was the cause of their slump (it wasn't, May's catastrophic performance and the bizarre associated policy developments on eg Death Tax were the cause as you well know) by beating the Tories on every issue in the campaign, why didn't Labour win?

The biggest swing to Labour since 1945 isn't worth a light when it leaves you 63 seats from winning the election. An election which McDonnell said he and Corbyn would resign over if they lost BTW - when's that happening? And its worth even less in a politics where the other parties are ruthlessly squeezed.

Your comment on Corbyn's success is the most important however. Corbyn's resounding success was just that - a resounding success for him, because he didn't crash and burn as expected. So yes, he won the election he was fighting, the one to keep himself as Labour leader. Not such a resounding success for the poorest, most vulnerable families who now have to wait another four years for Labour to try again, all because of Corbyn's 'success'.

Maybe Labour can post copies of its opinion poll success to those people to cheer them up while they wait for an actual election in which governments can be changed. Though polls variously showing a marginal lead or level pegging won't bring a lot of four year comfort either.

Only the Corbynite left could celebrate an election defeat as victory, claim they want to end austerity by failing to oppose the Brexit that will deepen it and then have the leader show such spinelessness that he won't even allow the subject to be debated and voted on at conference. So much for Jeremy's new open politics eh?

You could have made that a lot shorter, something like:

A more right-leaning Labour Party focusing more on Brexit would have done better and won the last election. Corbyn is selfish for thinking his style of politics is electable.

Personally, I think you’re rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic but there you go. 😉

[hibsbollah]

Oh you've really bought the whole thing haven't you?

I often wondered about you and similar posters on here from the Corbynite wing, what had happened to your belief system, how you consoled yourselves in being spectacularly wrong about Labour's future under Corbyn. The answer in your case seems to be a spectacular refusal to accept the reality that he fought and lost the election. I mean, I don't believe for a minute that you actually believe the tosh you've posted above. It's just a need to defend the Corbynite position, isn't it?

I didn't mention the Tory administration, I mentioned May as their Leader and their election campaign. If Labour was the cause of their slump (it wasn't, May's catastrophic performance and the bizarre associated policy developments on eg Death Tax were the cause as you well know) by beating the Tories on every issue in the campaign, why didn't Labour win?

The biggest swing to Labour since 1945 isn't worth a light when it leaves you 63 seats from winning the election. An election which McDonnell said he and Corbyn would resign over if they lost BTW - when's that happening? And its worth even less in a politics where the other parties are ruthlessly squeezed.

Your comment on Corbyn's success is the most important however. Corbyn's resounding success was just that - a resounding success for him, because he didn't crash and burn as expected. So yes, he won the election he was fighting, the one to keep himself as Labour leader. Not such a resounding success for the poorest, most vulnerable families who now have to wait another four years for Labour to try again, all because of Corbyn's 'success'.

Maybe Labour can post copies of its opinion poll success to those people to cheer them up while they wait for an actual election in which governments can be changed. Though polls variously showing a marginal lead or level pegging won't bring a lot of four year comfort either.

Only the Corbynite left could celebrate an election defeat as victory, claim they want to end austerity by failing to oppose the Brexit that will deepen it and then have the leader show such spinelessness that he won't even allow the subject to be debated and voted on at conference. So much for Jeremy's new open politics eh?

Aye very good. Personally I dont think echoing my verbiage works as a debating technique but i'll let others judge.

I'm genuinely astonished. Leaving aside the partiality, In a spirit of honesty, ask yourself if in twenty years time when books are written and politics lecturers discuss the 2016 UK General Election, will they describe it as a failure for Corbyn and the left?

[hibsbollah]

A more right-leaning Labour Party focusing more on Brexit would have done better and won the last election.

:faf:

I'll tell the jokes.

[One Day Soon]

Ahem, Ruth Davidson? :wink:

A fair point.

[One Day Soon]

You could have made that a lot shorter, something like:

A more right-leaning Labour Party focusing more on Brexit would have done better and won the last election. Corbyn is selfish for thinking his style of politics is electable.

Personally, I think you’re rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic but there you go. 😉


Not my Titanic or my deckchairs.

A less Jeremy leader I think might have won that election, or at least lost it less badly, without any policy changes.

[hibsbollah]

Not my Titanic or my deckchairs.

A less Jeremy leader I think might have won that election, or at least lost it less badly, without any policy changes.

Like who? Be specific.

[One Day Soon]

Aye very good. Personally I dont think echoing my verbiage works as a debating technique but i'll let others judge.

I'm genuinely astonished. Leaving aside the partiality, In a spirit of honesty, ask yourself if in twenty years time when books are written and politics lecturers discuss the 2016 UK General Election, will they describe it as a failure for Corbyn and the left?


Politics lecturers in twenty years time? I think you're missing my point. It doesn't matter how right or left Labour is, if it doesn't win it is irrelevant. And that's a failure of Corbyn and the left in the last election and right now for the people who desperately need a Labour government. And the effect of losing the election is being compounded by the utter dishonesty over Brexit. It is pretty tragic that there is virtually no substantive policy difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson over Brexit.

[One Day Soon]

Like who? Be specific.

Thornberry, Starmer, Umuna, Gardiner, Rayner....

[One Day Soon]

This is guid!

It won't save the Nats GL. Corbyn will be enough to knacker them but not enough to beat the Tories.

[hibsbollah]

Politics lecturers in twenty years time? I think you're missing my point. It doesn't matter how right or left Labour is, if it doesn't win it is irrelevant. And that's a failure of Corbyn and the left in the last election and right now for the people who desperately need a Labour government. And the effect of losing the election is being compounded by the utter dishonesty over Brexit. It is pretty tragic that there is virtually no substantive policy difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson over Brexit.

Ok. But answer the question?

[hibsbollah]

Thornberry, Starmer, Umuna, Gardiner, Rayner....

You had me with Rayner, then you had to spoil it with #3.

[One Day Soon]

You had me with Rayner, then you had to spoil it with #3.

I'm just a lot less tribal than you.

[One Day Soon]

Ok. But answer the question?

"in twenty years time when books are written and politics lecturers discuss the 2016 UK General Election, will they describe it as a failure for Corbyn and the left?"

1. Who knows? We're not psychic.
2. It probably depends on the result of the next election. If he loses that then the preceding election will be seen as a failure. If he wins it, it will be seen as a staging post.
3. My best guess is nowhere near as catastrophic as 1983 but still a fail.
4. Why does what politics lecturers think in twenty years time matter? This isn't an academic exercise.

[hibsbollah]

I'm just a lot less tribal than you.

That's a bit rude and judgemental. Im not tribal at all. We were discussing electability, its irrelevant what I think of him personally. I just doubt Umunna has a chance of winning a general election.

[Pete]

It won't save the Nats GL. Corbyn will be enough to knacker them but not enough to beat the Tories.

Here we were being told that we weren’t psychic.

Consider the fact that more than twice as many voters under the age of 45 think Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party is now “on their side”, compared with those who believe the same about the Conservative party.

It’s all pointing in one direction.

[hibsbollah]

"in twenty years time when books are written and politics lecturers discuss the 2016 UK General Election, will they describe it as a failure for Corbyn and the left?"

1. Who knows? We're not psychic.
2. It probably depends on the result of the next election. If he loses that then the preceding election will be seen as a failure. If he wins it, it will be seen as a staging post.
3. My best guess is nowhere near as catastrophic as 1983 but still a fail.
4. Why does what politics lecturers think in twenty years time matter? This isn't an academic exercise.

1. No we're not. But we can surmise. And its pretty obvious achieving a hung parliament, while overturning an apparent 20 point poll deficit in such a short time, will be considered as a spectacularly good result. If a party leader was elected for one electoral cycle only, and his job was to win tout de suite, regardless of the position he inherited, you'd be right. But its not, its a process. So you're wrong.
2. If he loses the next election, why on earth would that affect how the preceding election would be viewed? His legacy perhaps, but not the election itself.
3. OK. that's your guess.
4. Because with a period of contemplation you tend to get less tribalism and partiality, and more objectivity.

[Glory Lurker]

It won't save the Nats GL. Corbyn will be enough to knacker them but not enough to beat the Tories.

Stay on topic, man. Isn't this thread supposed to be about Labour knocking lumps out of itself? :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

That's a bit rude and judgemental. Im not tribal at all. We were discussing electability, its irrelevant what I think of him personally. I just doubt Umunna has a chance of winning a general election.

He's not in the Corbynite tent, but he's certainly electable. Unless the judgment is being made on a partisan political basis.

[One Day Soon]

Here we were being told that we weren’t psychic.

Consider the fact that more than twice as many voters under the age of 45 think Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party is now “on their side”, compared with those who believe the same about the Conservative party.

It’s all pointing in one direction.


Jolly good. Why didn't that translate into an election win then? Why is he misleading that very group of voters most concerned about Brexit as to its consequences?

[McD]

What I want to see is safe housing that is affordable for everyone. A mass programme of social and affordable house building would provide that and take the heat out of the housing market, perhaps eliminating the need for restrictions regarding multiple property ownership. Rent controls and the end of tax breaks for buy-to-let landlords would also help.
If I was in charge of the Labour Party, I would indeed make MP's sell any second homes they had. Like I said, I'm not keen on people making profit from residential property so I'd do it as a matter of principle...show you are committed to a true Socialist agenda or exit stage left.

You in comrade?




Firstly, it's a bit cruel to say that Corbyn "lost" the last election. The gains and momentum picked up were beyond all expectations and showed everyone that the left is indeed electable...after all these years of being told it was impossible too.
I agree about the financial crash being responsible though. What angers me is the fact that only bland alternatives to austerity were on offer up until fairly recently. If people had realised earlier that socialism was a real alternative then we might indeed not be in this position.
Better late than never though and no matter what happens regarding Brexit, I'm confident Mr. Corbyn will ensure that the British people will be the winners should he be the next PM :agree:



A lot to applaud in your first paragraph, I do want to ask though, about your point re. MPs selling second homes.

How does that work for MPs from outside Greater London? How does an MP from Cardiff or Inverness or Edinburgh etc accommodate your position? Don’t serve their constituents in person much by living in London, or sleep in the cloakroom at Westminster on the very regular days they’re expected to do their job in the House of Commons, but have a bed somewhere else far far away?


I (if anyone was daft enough to give me any power :greengrin) would create/acquire a flat/apartment in London that is assigned to each constituency (that requires one), and is the ‘MP’ home whilst there. The MP keeps their own home in their constituency. The MP is responsible for the decorating, upkeep etc of the apartment, and when they are voted out of office, they hand back the keys to the new incumbent/someone in Westminster tasked to manage these things. Any significant maintainance required (not wanted, required), the MP approaches the expenses controllers to discuss.

[One Day Soon]

1. No we're not. But we can surmise. And its pretty obvious achieving a hung parliament, while overturning an apparent 20 point poll deficit in such a short time, will be considered as a spectacularly good result. If a party leader was elected for one electoral cycle only, and his job was to win tout de suite, regardless of the position he inherited, you'd be right. But its not, its a process. So you're wrong.

A spectacularly good result on whose terms? A well insulated group of academics pontificating with twenty years retrospection or the people left hung out to dry by his failure. "achieving a hung parliament" - Is that what its come to, how low the aspiration is? They said they'd resign if they didn't win. They themselves set the bar for failure pre-election and duly didn't clear it. Their words not mine.

2. If he loses the next election, why on earth would that affect how the preceding election would be viewed? His legacy perhaps, but not the election itself.

Because one result that led to a later victory might be regarded as a development stage. One result that led to nothing but more failure is likely to be judged more harshly.

3. OK. that's your guess.
4. Because with a period of contemplation you tend to get less tribalism and partiality, and more objectivity.
Very nice, but it won't build a single home, fix the NHS or sort out our economy. I'm not interested in narrating the past, I'm interested in changing the present.

[One Day Soon]

Stay on topic, man. Isn't this thread supposed to be about Labour knocking lumps out of itself? :greengrin

Listen, there's always time to be spared to take pot shots at you in passing.

[One Day Soon]

A lot to applaud in your first paragraph, I do want to ask though, about your point re. MPs selling second homes.

How does that work for MPs from outside Greater London? How does an MP from Cardiff or Inverness or Edinburgh etc accommodate your position? Don’t serve their constituents in person much by living in London, or sleep in the cloakroom at Westminster on the very regular days they’re expected to do their job in the House of Commons, but have a bed somewhere else far far away?


I (if anyone was daft enough to give me any power :greengrin) would create/acquire a flat/apartment in London that is assigned to each constituency (that requires one), and is the ‘MP’ home whilst there. The MP keeps their own home in their constituency. The MP is responsible for the decorating, upkeep etc of the apartment, and when they are voted out of office, they hand back the keys to the new incumbent/someone in Westminster tasked to manage these things. Any significant maintainance required (not wanted, required), the MP approaches the expenses controllers to discuss.

Sensible idea.

Doesn't address the question of how they can be made to sell any other properties though, or whether they should be made to...

[Pete]

A lot to applaud in your first paragraph, I do want to ask though, about your point re. MPs selling second homes.

How does that work for MPs from outside Greater London? How does an MP from Cardiff or Inverness or Edinburgh etc accommodate your position? Don’t serve their constituents in person much by living in London, or sleep in the cloakroom at Westminster on the very regular days they’re expected to do their job in the House of Commons, but have a bed somewhere else far far away?


I (if anyone was daft enough to give me any power :greengrin) would create/acquire a flat/apartment in London that is assigned to each constituency (that requires one), and is the ‘MP’ home whilst there. The MP keeps their own home in their constituency. The MP is responsible for the decorating, upkeep etc of the apartment, and when they are voted out of office, they hand back the keys to the new incumbent/someone in Westminster tasked to manage these things. Any significant maintainance required (not wanted, required), the MP approaches the expenses controllers to discuss.

Something like that would be ideal. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

He's not in the Corbynite tent, but he's certainly electable. Unless the judgment is being made on a partisan political basis.

He would be toast in the working class constituencies that Labour needs to win. Polling absolutely bears this out.

[Glory Lurker]

Listen, there's always time to be spared to take pot shots at you in passing.

Fair shout.

[One Day Soon]

Fair shout.


:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Stay on topic, man. Isn't this thread supposed to be about Labour knocking lumps out of itself? :greengrin

The Labour Party is looking more united than it has done for a long while. The MPs who were against him are probably still against him, but know they're onto a good thing with the Tory ship sailing close to the Brexit rocks.

[Pete]

Jolly good. Why didn't that translate into an election win then?

It will, once more of them realise their vote will count and head to the ballot box. The Tories still don’t understand why young people favour Corbyns Labour so I don’t think they ever will.

A lot can change in five years (maximum) but the momentum and trends tell you one thing.

[One Day Soon]

It will, once more of them realise their vote will count and head to the ballot box. The Tories still don’t understand why young people favour Corbyns Labour so I don’t think they ever will.

A lot can change in five years (maximum) but the momentum and trends tell you one thing.


I think people are going to pay for this personality cult with a further four years of Tory government on top of the present four they're already paying. Let's see.

[Mibbes Aye]

Any talk of how well Corbin supposedly did at the last election is delusional IMO.

The swing to Labour was broadly similar to that in 1997.

The Labour share of the vote was broadly similar to that in 2001.

Have you spotted the difference yet?

In 1997, Labour turned that swing into a majority of 179.

In 2001, Labour turned that vote share into a majority of 167.

Corbyn? Well, he managed to finish 55 seats behind the Tories.

That's the difference.

He can persuade lots of Corbyn-minded people to get out and vote, but that isn't going to win an election because he needs to persuade those who aren't Corbyn-minded. They're the ones who will make it happen.

Its no good piling up votes in safe seats. Winning an Aylesbury and a Kensington is likewise meaningless. It needs to be twenty of each.

The Blair-haters will, I guess, hate this but it's incontrovertible. He got people who wouldn't think of voting Labour to vote Labour. That's why he got majorities that needed weighed rather than counted and that's why Corbyn finished a country mile behind the shambolic Tories. Corbyn may tickle the tummies of the disaffected left but that is sheer self-indulgence when it's clear that he's not reaching the electorate in a way that will allow Labour to govern again.

Maybe he can change that, I doubt it but I don't know. What I do know, and this is something I think his followers will agree with, is that the right-wing press still carry some heft in shaping the agenda. I believe they have gone easy on him so far. They are saving their ammo should the next election polls suggest he has a chance. If that's the case then they will unleash everything they have and those who like Labour policies but are suspicious about whether it's safe will just flock back to the Tories, same as 1987 and 1992.

I recently re-read Philip Gould's history of the turmoils in the party from the mid-80s through to New Labour, the missed opportunities brought about by clinging to a dogmatism that appeased the ideologues but did nothing to win over those who fundamentally mistrusted 'Old Labour'. It feels like we are repeating those mistakes.

[Betty Boop]

Sorry to hear that Rodney Bickerstaffe has passed away. A decent man and great trade unionist. RIP Rodney.

[One Day Soon]

Sorry to hear that Rodney Bickerstaffe has passed away. A decent man and great trade unionist. RIP Rodney.

A guy whose contribution to the Labour movement was pretty profound. One of the best at reconciling the demands of radicalism and the pursuit of power. Not many like him sadly.

[ronaldo7]

Jeremy Corbyn today...

"Congratulations to the International campaign to abolish nuclear weapons on well deserved Nobel peace prize award".

BUT


**** it, let's renew Trident, anyway.

[ronaldo7]

Anybody got a spare e mail addy or two. Need to vote in the upcoming election. :greengrin

Jackie Baillie and a brewery spring to mind.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not a fan of Kez, but I found this quite funny..

https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/917804284024147968

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

I'm not a fan of Kez, but I found this quite funny..

https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/917804284024147968

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk


😍👌

[ronaldo7]

I hope she wins.:greengrin

https://t.co/Ap3hg8qx5I

[marinello59]

I hope she wins.:greengrin

https://t.co/Ap3hg8qx5I

Unbelievable. I hope she has to do every single trial while she is in there. If I was one of her constituents I’d be voting for her to take part every night.

[ronaldo7]

Unbelievable. I hope she has to do every single trial while she is in there. If I was one of her constituents I’d be voting for her to take part every night.

She's just getting on with the day job. :greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Leonard wins then. No surprise.

[marinello59]

Leonard wins the Scottish Labour leadership battle easily.

[cabbageandribs1875]

so, Leonard it is


wonder if sarwar will ask for his shares back in the family business

[hibsbollah]

Leonard wins the Scottish Labour leadership battle easily.

I voted for him. Hopefully another step towards electability.

[lucky]

Delighted that Leonard has won but it’s pathetic that Dugdale is going into I’m a Celebrity

[hibsbollah]

Delighted that Leonard has won but it’s pathetic that Dugdale is going into I’m a Celebrity

I won't be happy unless she imitates being a cat lapping up milk with Rula Lenska. Oh mama.

[Pete]

Really pleased Richard won. Time for socialism in Scotland.

And all the phone calls from his team will now stop. I suppose that’s people power for you. :-D

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Really pleased Richard won. Time for socialism in Scotland.

And all the phone calls from his team will now stop. I suppose that’s people power for you. :-D

That will never happen, but labour may well gain moren influence, particuarly if they can erode the SNP gains in the left leaning post industrial areas.

A more pluralist politics in Scotland would be welcome.

But there will never be 'socialism' in Scotland.

[marinello59]

I voted for him. Hopefully another step towards electability.

It’s a small step but a significant one. Scottish Labour did itself a real favour today.

[Pete]

That will never happen, but labour may well gain moren influence, particuarly if they can erode the SNP gains in the left leaning post industrial areas.

A more pluralist politics in Scotland would be welcome.

But there will never be 'socialism' in Scotland.

Never say never comrade.

Experts were lining up for years to tell us Labour was finished under Mr Corbyn.

[marinello59]

That will never happen, but labour may well gain moren influence, particuarly if they can erode the SNP gains in the left leaning post industrial areas.

A more pluralist politics in Scotland would be welcome.

But there will never be 'socialism' in Scotland.

Corbyn will never become the Labour leader.
The UK will never vote for Brexit.
Trump will never become President.
:greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

Never say never comrade.

Experts were lining up for years to tell us Labour was finished under Mr Corbyn.

Mr Corbin, is he your boss?

Sounds a bit like Mr Romanov.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

And now she is going into I'm a Celebrity get me out of here. Time for a wee suspension maybe.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Never say never comrade.

Experts were lining up for years to tell us Labour was finished under Mr Corbyn.

True, and did better than expected. Yet still lag behind the worst government in living memory, and still the years roll by without a 'real' labour party being able to win an election.

Things might change, but i wouldnt bet on it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Corbyn will never become the Labour leader.
The UK will never vote for Brexit.
Trump will never become President.
:greengrin

I take your point, but the obvious example missing from your list is corbyn winning an election.

Ill happily admit i was wrong if labour sweep to power in london or here.

[heretoday]

And now she is going into I'm a Celebrity get me out of here. Time for a wee suspension maybe.

Not if she wins, and humiliates Boris Johnson's dad into the bargain!

[ronaldo7]

Not if she wins, and humiliates Boris Johnson's dad into the bargain!

As I've said, earlier on the thread, I hope she wins, but given some of the vitriol she's getting from her own party, I'd be surprised to see her stay in Scotland for the foreseeable. Unless she crosses the divide. No, not from Labour to the Tories, they're already chums. From Labour to SNP:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

As I've said, earlier on the thread, I hope she wins, but given some of the vitriol she's getting from her own party, I'd be surprised to see her stay in Scotland for the foreseeable. Unless she crosses the divide. No, not from Labour to the Tories, they're already chums. From Labour to SNP:greengrin

She's too left-wing for you :greengrin

Being honest, I wouldn't rule it out. It feels like there's a massive problem around what people actually want, with no party actually meeting that need. That creates a debate as to whether parties should meet what people want, or should stick to their principles and see how attractive that is to the electorate.

When it comes down to it, the biggest issues, challenges and questions aren't about what flags fly above our buildings or what stamp is on the currency we use.

It's the social issues - educational attainment, how we manage the demographic timebomb that is care for the elderly, how to ensure adequate social care to allow hospital care to work properly, things like that.

I think there are politicians on all sides who recognise these as the critical things,unfortunately they get drowned out in the point-scoring and sniping that seems prevalent from all sides.

[ronaldo7]

She's too left-wing for you :greengrin

Being honest, I wouldn't rule it out. It feels like there's a massive problem around what people actually want, with no party actually meeting that need. That creates a debate as to whether parties should meet what people want, or should stick to their principles and see how attractive that is to the electorate.

When it comes down to it, the biggest issues, challenges and questions aren't about what flags fly above our buildings or what stamp is on the currency we use.

It's the social issues - educational attainment, how we manage the demographic timebomb that is care for the elderly, how to ensure adequate social care to allow hospital care to work properly, things like that.

I think there are politicians on all sides who recognise these as the critical things,unfortunately they get drowned out in the point-scoring and sniping that seems prevalent from all sides.

:faf: Aboot as left wing as Peter Marinello.

[lucky]

Doubt she’ll ever switch parties more likely announce she’s not standing again or stands down. Not sure a list MSP can cross the floor as they are party nominated rather than individually elected

[Hibrandenburg]

Not if she wins, and humiliates Boris Johnson's dad into the bargain!

Not a chance. Her whiny, moaning, school girl voice will piss viewers off from the start. Most of the viewers south of the border will be asking themselves "Kezia who"?

[danhibees1875]

I was doing the ironing/generally pottering about the flat when it was on, but from the bits I did watch (don't judge me) she wasn't on it at all? :confused:

Do they introduce more "celebrities" after week 1?

[Hiber-nation]

I was doing the ironing/generally pottering about the flat when it was on, but from the bits I did watch (don't judge me) she wasn't on it at all? :confused:

Do they introduce more "celebrities" after week 1?

Yes they do. I don't see what all the fuss is about. It's fun, I watch it and I don't give a monkey's what folk think.

The Scottish Labour seethe is just fantastic

[snooky]

Nicola Sturgeon appears to be giving Kezia some support re. her pursuit of celeb status. I wish NS would learn to keep stoosh instead of jumping into controversialites.

[CropleyWasGod]

Nicola Sturgeon appears to be giving Kezia some support re. her pursuit of celeb status. I wish NS would learn to keep stoosh instead of jumping into controversialites.

My guess is that NS is being cute here. She's keeping the spotlight on the issues in the Labour party, at a time when they should be feeling positive about their future.

[snooky]

My guess is that NS is being cute here. She's keeping the spotlight on the issues in the Labour party, at a time when they should be feeling positive about their future.

:hmmm: Could be. If so, that's gye sleekit. :wink:

[BroxburnHibee]

I was doing the ironing/generally pottering about the flat when it was on, but from the bits I did watch (don't judge me) she wasn't on it at all? :confused:

Do they introduce more "celebrities" after week 1?

Usually after a couple of days. It tends to rock the camp a bit

I don't understand what the problem is. She's allowed a holiday surely? :greengrin

[-Jonesy-]

Kez may struggle in the jungle getting balls down her throat as it's usually flowing the other way out.
Brass neck of her and rooth the mooth after hearing the phrase "get on with the day job" several times a day for the last year

[marinello59]

:faf: Aboot as left wing as Peter Marinello.

To be fair she stood on a manifesto during the last election that was well left of the SNP who were still trying to occupy the Tory friendly centre ground. Given that yourself and others wouldn’t dare criticise your parties Tory friendly tax policies it’s no surprise that it took the loss of several seats to force Sturgeon in to a re-think. No doubt you will flip right round as well.

[ronaldo7]

To be fair she stood on a manifesto during the last election that was well left of the SNP who were still trying to occupy the Tory friendly centre ground. Given that yourself and others wouldn’t dare criticise your parties Tory friendly tax policies it’s no surprise that it took the loss of several seats to force Sturgeon in to a re-think. No doubt you will flip right round as well.

I think you'll find, I actually wanted the green way forward on tax, but if you think someone standing on a ticket to renew trident at the last election, and putting a penny on tax for the lowest earners, the election before last, is left wing. The left must have moved.

[Hibrandenburg]

To be fair she stood on a manifesto during the last election that was well left of the SNP who were still trying to occupy the Tory friendly centre ground. Given that yourself and others wouldn’t dare criticise your parties Tory friendly tax policies it’s no surprise that it took the loss of several seats to force Sturgeon in to a re-think. No doubt you will flip right round as well.

Heaven forbid that politicians actually take heed of what the electorate tell them at the polls, where would that kind of thinking get us? :greengrin

[marinello59]

I think you'll find, I actually wanted the green way forward on tax, but if you think someone standing on a ticket to renew trident at the last election, and putting a penny on tax for the lowest earners, the election before last, is left wing. The left must have moved.

If you are under the illusion that the SNP is left wing then it’s moved even further than you think.

[ronaldo7]

If you are under the illusion that the SNP is left wing then it’s moved even further than you think.

Broad church, now, back to left winger kez. 😂

[hibsbollah]

I think you'll find, I actually wanted the green way forward on tax, but if you think someone standing on a ticket to renew trident at the last election, and putting a penny on tax for the lowest earners, the election before last, is left wing. The left must have moved.

Theoretically speaking, there's no reason why 'left wing' governments necessarily have to believe in nuclear disarmament. Neither is there a reason why they wouldn't increase taxation even on the poor from time to time as long as it's part of a system of progression taxation that funds public services that benefit everyone?

I know you're making a SNP/Labour political point but I think there's a misconception involved about defining 'the left'.

[marinello59]

Broad church, now, back to left winger kez. 😂

Oh I’m not defending Dugdale so much as wondering why somebody belonging to a centre right party thinks whether she is left wing or not really matters.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Theoretically speaking, there's no reason why 'left wing' governments necessarily have to believe in nuclear disarmament. Neither is there a reason why they wouldn't increase taxation even on the poor from time to time as long as it's part of a system of progression taxation that funds public services that benefit everyone?

I know you're making a SNP/Labour political point but I think there's a misconception involved about defining 'the left'.

I may have my facts wrong, but im sure the UsSR had a pro nuclear policy. And i believe they might habe been to the left of centre...

[Hibrandenburg]

I may have my facts wrong, but im sure the UsSR had a pro nuclear policy. And i believe they might habe been to the left of centre...

Lol, they were so far to the left that they were Hard Right.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Lol, they were so far to the left that they were Hard Right.

Going around in circles...😂

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/21/im-a-celebrity-kezia-dugdale-scottish-labour-leader
A welcome break from the nest of vipers that is Scottish Labour, apparently.

Warning, link attached:tsk tsk::shhhsh!:

[ronaldo7]

Theoretically speaking, there's no reason why 'left wing' governments necessarily have to believe in nuclear disarmament. Neither is there a reason why they wouldn't increase taxation even on the poor from time to time as long as it's part of a system of progression taxation that funds public services that benefit everyone?

I know you're making a SNP/Labour political point but I think there's a misconception involved about defining 'the left'.

I don't think I was defining "the left", however, IMO, it would be a poor Left wing Government that introduced a new trident system, and hiked taxes for the poorest in our society.

We'll see what we get to deal with tomorrow, and if our hand out is cut again.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Oh I’m not defending Dugdale so much as wondering why somebody belonging to a centre right party thinks whether she is left wing or not really matters.

I was responding to post 157. I hope that's ok?:greengrin

[G B Young]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/21/im-a-celebrity-kezia-dugdale-scottish-labour-leader
A welcome break from the nest of vipers that is Scottish Labour, apparently.

Warning, link attached:tsk tsk::shhhsh!:

Not often I agree with Nicola Sturgeon, but 'nest of vipers' seems an apt phrase to describe Scottish Labour, who have been a shambles for years now. Kezia was hopeless as leader, easily brushed aside by Sturgeon and Davidson and I'm not surprised she's off to the other side of the world. I don't see her being in politics for much longer despite her laughable claim that being on I'm a Celebrity represents a great opportunity to "preach Labour values in the jungle" :faf:

[Magnus]

She appears to be a bit of a Jonah.
Hillary Clinton would probably agree.

[snooky]

Not often I agree with Nicola Sturgeon, but 'nest of vipers' seems an apt phrase to describe Scottish Labour, who have been a shambles for years now. Kezia was hopeless as leader, easily brushed aside by Sturgeon and Davidson and I'm not surprised she's off to the other side of the world. I don't see her being in politics for much longer despite her laughable claim that being on I'm a Celebrity represents a great opportunity to "preach Labour values in the jungle" :faf:

Maybe the jungle will teach her its Law instead?

[Pete]

Maybe the jungle will teach her its Law instead?

Well on her first day it was all about hectic competition. Unfortunate creatures were exploited and trampled upon as she focused on accumulating as much wealth as she could.

Sounds more like Tory values than Labour ones.😁

[lucky]

It’s always interesting that Labours political opponents alway think they know what’s going on in the party. Maybe it’s because their own parties are forever infighting that’s influencing their comments

[-Jonesy-]

It’s always interesting that Labours political opponents alway think they know what’s going on in the party. Maybe it’s because their own parties are forever infighting that’s influencing their comments

Or maybe cos they are a complete shambles and totally unelectable

[marinello59]

It’s always interesting that Labours political opponents alway think they know what’s going on in the party. Maybe it’s because their own parties are forever infighting that’s influencing their comments

Wishful thinking more than anything else. The SNP are making exactly the same arrogant assumptions about future voting intentions as New Labour did at the height of its powers. If they can dismiss all their opponents as unelectable they don’t have to address their own failings.

[snooky]

Wishful thinking more than anything else. The SNP are making exactly the same arrogant assumptions about future voting intentions as New Labour did at the height of its powers. If they can dismiss all their opponents as unelectable they don’t have to address their own failings.

I'll agree with you on the point of assuming votes. The SNP's biggest threat is that they are in danger of getting carried away with their own popularity (or maybe perceived popularity). Nothing is a given as Sc. Labour found out to their cost. If you stop listening to the electorate, they will stop listening to you.

[hibsbollah]

Wishful thinking more than anything else. The SNP are making exactly the same arrogant assumptions about future voting intentions as New Labour did at the height of its powers. If they can dismiss all their opponents as unelectable they don’t have to address their own failings.

:agree: 'unelectable' is a completely meaningless put down, especially in today's unpredictable political world. Trump is a self confessed sexual predator, a confirmed racist who was caught on film bragging about 'grabbing hold of their pussys'...gets into twitter spats with grieving widows of fallen servicemen... When the most unelectable politician imaginable gets elected to the most powerful position on the planet, the old rules no longer apply. Labour are very much electable, in fact judging by the polls if there was an election tomorrow they'd win by somewhere between 30-50 seat majority.

[Moulin Yarns]

Local by election after Tory Councillor had to resign for porn on his computer. (ex teacher!)

Results

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/media/40993/Ward-10-Votes-per-stage-report/pdf/CandidateVotesPerStage_Report_Ward_10_-_Perth_City_South_23112017_232817

[Glory Lurker]

Wishful thinking more than anything else. The SNP are making exactly the same arrogant assumptions about future voting intentions as New Labour did at the height of its powers. If they can dismiss all their opponents as unelectable they don’t have to address their own failings.

2017 has left the SNP anything but complacent.

[lord bunberry]

Good on Kezia, I’ve always quite liked her. I hope she wins I’m a celebrity.
Im glad she’s not the Labour Party leader anymore as she never ever sounded convincing when she was defending the union. Much like many labour politicians.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good on Kezia, I’ve always quite liked her. I hope she wins I’m a celebrity.
Im glad she’s not the Labour Party leader anymore as she never ever sounded convincing when she was defending the union. Much like many labour politicians.

Same, she's alright. I think she never sounded convincing as the Scottish Labour leader because she wants an Independent Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

Same, she's alright. I think she never sounded convincing as the Scottish Labour leader because she wants an Independent Scotland.
That’s always the impression I got, I think it’s a real dilemma for Scottish Labour.

[-Jonesy-]

Same, she's alright. I think she never sounded convincing as the Scottish Labour leader because she wants an Independent Scotland.

Then why defend the union? Party stooge, zero integrity.

[-Jonesy-]

Then why defend the union? Party stooge, zero integrity.

Oh that's right £58k and expenses...

[Smartie]

Same, she's alright. I think she never sounded convincing as the Scottish Labour leader because she wants an Independent Scotland.

I don't think she's necessarily in favour of an Independent Scotland but I think she's probably more open to the idea of it than most figures within the mainstream Unionist parties.

It's not a viewpoint that fits in with the black and white, Yes or No, Leave or Remain binary choice politics that we have these days.

[hibsbollah]

I don't think she's necessarily in favour of an Independent Scotland but I think she's probably more open to the idea of it than most figures within the mainstream Unionist parties.

It's not a viewpoint that fits in with the black and white, Yes or No, Leave or Remain binary choice politics that we have these days.

:agree: There's a lot of labour people, and potential Labour voters, who just don't find the constitutional question very interesting. If it's a means to an end (the end being achieving more social justice, properly funded social services and equality), you swallow independence on the basis that it frees you from the rest of the UK that tends to vote for these things in less numbers than Scots do. I think that's where Kezia's at. Certainly she's not from the Fatty Folkes Ian Murray camp.

[marinello59]

That’s always the impression I got, I think it’s a real dilemma for Scottish Labour.

It would only be a dilemma for Labour if they defined themselves mainly by the constitutional question which, unlike the SNP, they don't.

[lord bunberry]

It would only be a dilemma for Labour if they defined themselves mainly by the constitutional question which, unlike the SNP, they don't.
That may well be true, but they fought the last two elections on an anti independence style campaign, as did the Tories. The Tories pushed labour into third place in both elections. I think it is a dilemma for the Labour Party.

[marinello59]

That may well be true, but they fought the last two elections on an anti independence style campaign, as did the Tories. The Tories pushed labour into third place in both elections. I think it is a dilemma for the Labour Party.

That's not really correct.
You think it's a dilemma for the Labour Party because you want it to be a dilemma for the Labour Party. :greengrin

[Future17]

It would only be a dilemma for Labour if they defined themselves mainly by the constitutional question which, unlike the SNP, they don't.

I think, regardless of whatever the reality is, where there is a perception that a significant number of a party's elected representatives oppose that party's stated constitutional position and support the constitutional position of a rival party, that creates a dilemma.

[marinello59]

I think, regardless of whatever the reality is, where there is a perception that a significant number of a party's elected representatives oppose that party's stated constitutional position and support the constitutional position of a rival party, that creates a dilemma.

It really doesn't because unlike SNP members the issue of whether we are an Independent country or not is not an over riding obsession for Labour party members or supporters.

[Smartie]

It really doesn't because unlike SNP members the issue of whether we are an Independent country or not is not an over riding obsession for Labour party members or supporters.

Given that the SNP are a party who exist all around the constitutional question, I don't think many of them will be too insulted by the fact that you consider their interest to be an over-riding obsession.

And I would have said that there are many, many (definitely not all) Labour party members for whom the constitution matters a great deal. These are the people who the SNP would probably have the biggest problem with - the ones who would prefer Tory austerity being meted out from Westminster over socially progressive politics from Holyrood.


I'm an SNP voter and I'm not totally obsessed by the constitution question. I was asked a question - yes or no - and I gave an opinion based on what I thought at the time. Whilst I'd vote Yes again if there was a referendum again tomorrow, I'm not in any great rush to see the question visited again so soon (and Brexit has made me more convinced than ever that we should have voted for Independence last time round). Depending on the circumstances I'd vote No or happily vote for a Unionist party in future if I thought it was justified.

There will be members of all of the Unionist parties (like I suspect Kezia Dugdale) who won't see themselves defined by the constitution question and may swap sides in future.

There are probably many of us who have quite a lot in common who have found ourselves bickering from opposite sides of the constitutional question these past few years.

[lord bunberry]

That's not really correct.
You think it's a dilemma for the Labour Party because you want it to be a dilemma for the Labour Party. :greengrin

I think it is true. Kezia was banging on about the snp plans to hold a second referendum in almost every interview she did.
Labour are stuck in no mans land between the snp and the tories in Scotland.
The emergence of Corbyn and the election of Leonard is what could save them up here. I really hope they do make a comeback and drive the tories back into third place as I agree with a lot of Corbyn’s policies.
I’d love to vote for them in an independent Scotland:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it is true. Kezia was banging on about the snp plans to hold a second referendum in almost every interview she did.
Labour are stuck in no mans land between the snp and the tories in Scotland.
The emergence of Corbyn and the election of Leonard is what could save them up here. I really hope they do make a comeback and drive the tories back into third place as I agree with a lot of Corbyn’s policies.
I’d love to vote for them in an independent Scotland:greengrin

I held back on criticising Corbyn because I wanted to see what he could bring to the table. Since he's been in charge he constantly bangs on about stopping austerity. But then he released a manifesto at the last election proposing to change only a fraction of the cuts made by the Tories. All mouth and nae trousers.

Labour need to be obsessed by the "I" question, it's more of a problem for them than the SNP, many of their faithful would have broken ranks at the last referendum and voted YES. The "I" question is something that splits Scottish Labour but unites the SNP and the Tories, if they're not obsessed with it then they really need to start being so.

[snooky]

I think it is true. Kezia was banging on about the snp plans to hold a second referendum in almost every interview she did.
Labour are stuck in no mans land between the snp and the tories in Scotland.
The emergence of Corbyn and the election of Leonard is what could save them up here. I really hope they do make a comeback and drive the tories back into third place as I agree with a lot of Corbyn’s policies.
I’d love to vote for them in an independent Scotland:greengrin

Interesting statement - I wonder how many yes &/or no voters feel the same?

[-Jonesy-]

Interesting statement - I wonder how many yes &/or no voters feel the same?

I won't go near them until they practice what they preach. Actually voting to Stop the cuts to social spending and no to renewing trident rather than abstaining like the sleekit cowards they are

[stoneyburn hibs]

I won't go near them until they practice what they preach. Actually voting to Stop the cuts to social spending and no to renewing trident rather than abstaining like the sleekit cowards they are

Trident wouldn't be ours post independence.

[marinello59]

I won't go near them until they practice what they preach. Actually voting to Stop the cuts to social spending and no to renewing trident rather than abstaining like the sleekit cowards they are

Shall we put you down as a Don’t Know then? :greengrin

[Future17]

It really doesn't because unlike SNP members the issue of whether we are an Independent country or not is not an over riding obsession for Labour party members or supporters.

And if Labour only thinks about what is important to its current members and supporters, it may struggle to return to government.

[Glory Lurker]

What’s Leonard on about bringing Scottish Water back in to public hands? Why were people applauding what is surely a gaffe? Have I missed something?

[-Jonesy-]

Trident wouldn't be ours post independence.

Still a big issue to deal with, point was Corbin talks about disarmament yet does nothing to make it happen

[RyeSloan]

What’s Leonard on about bringing Scottish Water back in to public hands? Why were people applauding what is surely a gaffe? Have I missed something?

Only read brief summaries of what he has said but it seems like he's going to go all out on taxes and public ownership.

Will be interesting to see what support he gathers for such things...they certainly seem popular on here with a few [emoji16]

[snooky]

A poignant quote from a tweet on WoS.
"Labour is still fighting the wrong enemy both in WM and Scotland and unfortunately they never learn from their mistakes."

[Pete]

What’s Leonard on about bringing Scottish Water back in to public hands? Why were people applauding what is surely a gaffe? Have I missed something?

Maybe you missed all that stuff about ten years ago where non-domestic water supply in Scotland was privatised. It seems to me that there are only "gaffes" found by those who are actively looking for them (flag-first newspapers like the National spring to mind) but I think most people knew what he meant and got the gist of it.

[Moulin Yarns]

What’s Leonard on about bringing Scottish Water back in to public hands? Why were people applauding what is surely a gaffe? Have I missed something?


Only read brief summaries of what he has said but it seems like he's going to go all out on taxes and public ownership.

Will be interesting to see what support he gathers for such things...they certainly seem popular on here with a few [emoji16]


.
We are a publicly owned company, answerable to the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland. It's our job to provide 1.34 billion litres of drinking water every day and take away 847 million litres of waste water daily..

[Pete]

Ok, since there are no counter arguments to the statement that water in Scotland isn’t 100% publicly owned, lets move on to Railways.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1403195-publicly-owned-scotrail-could-allow-for-6-5-fare-cuts/

Can anyone really justify these private companies lining their own pockets any more? Leonard is spot on and his “radical” policies will make Scotland better off.

[lucky]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

[Pete]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

:aok:

[Glory Lurker]

Ok, since there are no counter arguments to the statement that water in Scotland isn’t 100% publicly owned, .

Some of us have other things to do, you know. :-)

Water in Scotland is 100% publicly owned. Commercial supply and billing isn't, but the natural asset definitely is. Surprised that Leonard wants to cut the business sector slack by changing arrangements for non-residential users, but there you go.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok, since there are no counter arguments to the statement that water in Scotland isn’t 100% publicly owned, lets move on to Railways.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1403195-publicly-owned-scotrail-could-allow-for-6-5-fare-cuts/

Can anyone really justify these private companies lining their own pockets any more? Leonard is spot on and his “radical” policies will make Scotland better off.

seeing you missed it the first time, I'll repeat myself


We are a publicly owned company, answerable to the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland. It's our job to provide 1.34 billion litres of drinking water every day and take away 847 million litres of waste water daily.

I doubt Scottish Water would make that statement on their website if it wasn't true.

[Pete]

Some of us have other things to do, you know. :-)

Water in Scotland is 100% publicly owned. Commercial supply and billing isn't, but the natural asset definitely is. Surprised that Leonard wants to cut the business sector slack by changing arrangements for non-residential users, but there you go.

Lol well seeing I’m on back shift and bored. :-)

If the natural asset is owned by ourselves then how has it got to the situation where a private company is profiting from supplying our businesses with something we already own?

It’s only water so isn’t it better taken 100% in-house?

[Pete]

seeing you missed it the first time, I'll repeat myself



I doubt Scottish Water would make that statement on their website if it wasn't true.

I’ve missed nothing mate. :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

For a large proportion of the population the independence question is an important one. He'll have to address it somehow and and some point, if he doesn't then he'll haemorrhage votes, if he does he'll haemorrhage votes. That's the political landscape in Scotland like it or not.

[JeMeSouviens]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

I see he's carrying on the proud Scottish Labour tradition of suggesting Scottish policies for areas his party actively stopped being devolved. :rolleyes: This time it's a one off windfall wealth tax (which sounds a dubious construct to begin with (why one off? what are they going to do with the "windfall"?). Even the devolution of income tax we have specifically excludes non-earned income. How does he think he has a cat in hell's chance of getting Westminster to give us the powers to levy a wealth tax and how long would it take even if they did?

Muppet.

[ronaldo7]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

I didn't hear him bellowing about equal pay to the Labour Glasgow council, where women had to go private, and get lawyers to fight for them, or the jannies dispute, until the SNP got into power there.

It seems, any old bandwagon will do for Richard. Let's hope he's up to speed on the issues.

I wonder what he'll do with the Labour/Tory coalitions all over Scotland.

Socialists, really?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Lovely (socialist) sound bites from Dick Leonard.
He's got about as much clout with the voting public in Scotland as Ruthie has.
He's also got Corbyn's hand so far up his backside it's pathetic. Like Ruthie he'll do what he's told by his London paymasters.The vast majority of Scottish voters will see through that.

[Mibbes Aye]

Lovely (socialist) sound bites from Dick Leonard.
He's got about as much clout with the voting public in Scotland as Ruthie has.
He's also got Corbyn's hand so far up his backside it's pathetic. Like Ruthie he'll do what he's told by his London paymasters.The vast majority of Scottish voters will see through that.

I'm certainly no Tory and I suspect you're not either, but I wouldn't accuse Ruth Davidson of kowtowing to the Westminster leadership. If nothing else, the leadership of the Tories at UK-level seems to have been descending into bitter, internecine warfare so it's not even like there's a consistent position to kowtow to!

Also not sure about calling her 'Ruthie'. No one calls her that and it suggests a lack of evidence to back up one's argument when you resort to playing about with people's names. As far as it goes, she seems to have done quite well with the voters in Scotland - I grew up with the Tories dead in the water in Scotland, she has presided over a remarkable upturn in their fortunes, however much you or I may not like that.

[-Jonesy-]

Also not sure about calling her 'Ruthie'.

Dead on!

It's either Ruth the mooth or rape clause Ruth.

Horrible Tory shill.

[Mibbes Aye]

Dead on!

It's either Ruth the mooth or rape clause Ruth.

Horrible Tory shill.

:greengrin

[stoneyburn hibs]

You're pulling me up for calling her Ruthie ? Oh well.
And there has been enough occasions where she could have made a stand against Tory policy in Scotland of which she didn't agree on but did nothing. The Tory vote in Scotland was only likely to go one way from only having Mundell (another puppet) to a few more . Hardly remarkable.

[Mibbes Aye]

You're pulling me up for calling her Ruthie ? Oh well.
And there has been enough occasions where she could have made a stand against Tory policy in Scotland of which she didn't agree on but did nothing. The Tory vote in Scotland was only likely to go one way from only having Mundell (another puppet) to a few more . Hardly remarkable.

I'm not pulling you up about anything. I'm pointing out that mucking about with folks' names instantly makes the post sound less intelligent - albeit I think it's fine when posting on the MB about HOMFC, but on threads like this which are supposedly serious debate amongst fellow fans, it reduces the impact of what you are trying to say.

There's been a lot of chat on here about how Scottish Labour historically took things for granted and how that eventually back-fired. There's also been a lot of taking for granted that the Tories could never win in Scotland and that's back-fired too. There's a lot of innate conservatism (not Conservatism) in the Scottish electorate and that's something that Davidson can target and build on.

As I say, you or I might not vote for her and her party but I would dismiss her at your peril.

[snooky]

I'm not pulling you up about anything. I'm pointing out that mucking about with folks' names instantly makes the post sound less intelligent - albeit I think it's fine when posting on the MB about HOMFC, but on threads like this which are supposedly serious debate amongst fellow fans, it reduces the impact of what you are trying to say.

There's been a lot of chat on here about how Scottish Labour historically took things for granted and how that eventually back-fired. There's also been a lot of taking for granted that the Tories could never win in Scotland and that's back-fired too. There's a lot of innate conservatism (not Conservatism) in the Scottish electorate and that's something that Davidson can target and build on.

As I say, you or I might not vote for her and her party but I would dismiss her at your peril.

I agree with you on this one, MA. I use a lot of alt. names for famous/notorious 'characters' however, several times I've changed them to their proper names just before posting as I felt they were actually a detraction from the point I was trying to make.

[marinello59]

Delighted with the start he’s made and I’ll guarantee he’ll carry through on it if he gets into power. I’ve known him around 15 years and he’s a lifelong socialist and trade unionist. These arguments are his bread and butter and something he passionately believes in. All the policies going forward will be about people not borders or flags. Labour now have two socialists in charge in Westminster and Holyrood. The party has come a long way from Blair/Brown and the disaster that was Murphy. Now we will see if Scotland is a socialist country or not

Aye, he has started well. And given the way he has got SNP followers rattled it looks like he is on the right course. The key in Scotland over the next few elections will be winning over younger voters. If he can tap fully in to the Corbyn effect he’ll do alright.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I didn't hear him bellowing about equal pay to the Labour Glasgow council, where women had to go private, and get lawyers to fight for them, or the jannies dispute, until the SNP got into power there.

It seems, any old bandwagon will do for Richard. Let's hope he's up to speed on the issues.

I wonder what he'll do with the Labour/Tory coalitions all over Scotland.

Socialists, really?


the scottish Conservative and Labour unionist party :agree: absolutely sickening, utterly shameful

[Glory Lurker]

Aye, he has started well. And given the way he has got SNP followers rattled it looks like he is on the right course.

I’m not rattled, and i’m not seeing anything that suggests others are. And that’s not complacency, either :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye, he has started well. And given the way he has got SNP followers rattled it looks like he is on the right course. The key in Scotland over the next few elections will be winning over younger voters. If he can tap fully in to the Corbyn effect he’ll do alright.

Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.

But they might be rattled into voting Labour 😂

[marinello59]

Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.

Surely the SNP aren’t still putting all their eggs in to the Brexit basket? It hasn’t given anything like the sort of lift in support for Independence they expected. (And I had hoped for.)

[marinello59]

Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.


But they might be rattled into voting Labour ��

I don’t think anybody would ever suggest that the more entrenched SNP supporters will be voting Labour anytime soon. But given how many SNP voters switched directly to the Tories in their North East heartlands at the last election who really knows?

[Mibbes Aye]

Surely the SNP aren’t still putting all their eggs in to the Brexit basket? It hasn’t given anything like the sort of lift in support for Independence they expected. (And I had hoped for.)

Putting any opinions of my own aside and looking at it neutrally, I would suggest the following:

The aim of any party is to win power to implement desired policy. In order to do that they require three things - objective, strategy and tactics.

The SNP have an objective of sorts, in so much as independence is an objective, and that's perfectly valid (though it begs the question about after that where do they stand?).

They certainly have shown astuteness on tactics a lot of the time, but the gap appears to sit with strategy.

I think that they are good at marshalling the troops and good at the reactive stuff, but there isn't a coherent sense of strategy in key areas like health and education. So much 'responsibility' is devolved to local authorities and partnerships in the name of localism but localities are then constrained in decision-making, whether it's by several years of council tax freeze or being locked into targets that don't necessarily demonstrate genuine success when met.

They are crying out for a genuine strategic approach and I wonder whether the lack of that reflects internal divisions at a senior level.

[RyeSloan]

Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.

A bit like the Indy vote some folk seem to find it hard to move on.

Brexit won't stop any of the above from happening, it may not make it as easy as it is currently but if they want to they will still be able to. As it is I honestly doubt this would be overly high on the 'young' agenda anyway. It's kind of obvious that most will plan to do that in Scotland.

[Future17]

Surely the SNP aren’t still putting all their eggs in to the Brexit basket? It hasn’t given anything like the sort of lift in support for Independence they expected. (And I had hoped for.)

To be fair, it hasn't happened yet, so it's true impact (whatever that may be) hasn't been felt.

[marinello59]

To be fair, it hasn't happened yet, so it's true impact (whatever that may be) hasn't been felt.

True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.

[Hibrandenburg]

True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.

Once the true horrors of isolationism become reality for Scots who have a fair argument to say that they didn't vote for it sink home, then there will be a backlash against those who brought it about. The Tories who brought all of this upon us and Labour who campaigned to keep us part of the Union that brought this upon us will pay the price.

[RyeSloan]

Once the true horrors of isolationism become reality for Scots who have a fair argument to say that they didn't vote for it sink home, then there will be a backlash against those who brought it about. The Tories who brought all of this upon us and Labour who campaigned to keep us part of the Union that brought this upon us will pay the price.

Who is proposing isolationism?

And the opposite could just easily be as true...when the reality sinks in that we didn't need to be part of the EU to prevent the sky falling down and that actually leaving hasn't impacted most people's day to day lives that greatly then those that so vehemently said it would could face a backlash of their own.

As it is I see the politics of Scotland (be that Holyrood or Westminster elections) somewhat removed from the Brexit issue...the last election and the failed 'surge' the SNP was banking on for Indy2 probably shows that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who is proposing isolationism?

And the opposite could just easily be as true...when the reality sinks in that we didn't need to be part of the EU to prevent the sky falling down and that actually leaving hasn't impacted most people's day to day lives that greatly then those that so vehemently said it would could face a backlash of their own.

As it is I see the politics of Scotland (be that Holyrood or Westminster elections) somewhat removed from the Brexit issue...the last election and the failed 'surge' the SNP was banking on for Indy2 probably shows that.

Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.

[Moulin Yarns]

Read these and weep!

£72 BILLION: The cost of Brexit is already turning Britain into a second-rung nation

http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-economic-cost-of-brexit-in-gdp-2017-11

Brexit vote has cost each household more than £600 a year, says NIESR

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth

Cost of Brexit to Trade at least £850 per household per year

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/03/19/the-cost-of-brexit-to-trade-at-least-850-per-household-per-year/

[RyeSloan]

Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.

So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.