View Full Version : Fire in London tower block
cabbageandribs1875
14-06-2017, 03:27 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625
watching live the now, looks horrendous
Hibbycol
14-06-2017, 03:33 AM
Horrendous sight . 27 storeys in flames BBC says 250 flats !!!!! Jesus Mary and Joseph hope EVERYBODY GOT OUT SAFE . Praying for everbodys safety
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iwasthere1972
14-06-2017, 03:53 AM
Just watching it now. Horrendous. Started at 1am when most folk would have been in bed. Can't recall seeing a building in the UK that high ablaze. Chances of it collapsing as well. Just horrible and can't help thinking that the casualty number will be high.
Betty Boop
14-06-2017, 03:59 AM
Terrible scenes, a guy trapped on the 11th floor has been at the window for about an hour. An hydraulic platform trying to reach him hope he makes it.
hibsbollah
14-06-2017, 06:08 AM
Lots of people reporting not hearing any alarms. How is this possible in 2017??
Hibrandenburg
14-06-2017, 06:45 AM
Dreadful situation to be in. Can only imagine the horror for those trapped. No information on casualties but with a fire of that magnitude and the time it happened there must be many. Hope I'm wŕong and by some miracle everyone has managed to get out.
Lots of people reporting not hearing any alarms. How is this possible in 2017??
Seems to be either a lack of a communal area alarm or it didn't work.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
14-06-2017, 07:13 AM
Jeezo, that is like something out of film. Horrendous.
Awful getting some real heart breaking events at the moment
Betty Boop
14-06-2017, 08:20 AM
Residents told in the event of fire to stay on their flats. Good grief what a tragedy.
JeMeSouviens
14-06-2017, 08:23 AM
Lots of people reporting not hearing any alarms. How is this possible in 2017??
Just heard a resident on radio saying there's been gas works going on in the building.
Hibbycol
14-06-2017, 09:33 AM
I read the grenfell residents blog and they predicted a block fire that would be cost a huge number of human life due to the under funding and horrendous treatment of residences safety in 2013 !!!!!!!!!! . I thank Christ I don't live in a high rise anymore, I've been in two fires and the smoke and heat is indescribable . Those poor poor people
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Betty Boop
14-06-2017, 10:53 AM
Six dead with the number expected to rise. Such a shame for loved ones waiting for news.
Prof. Shaggy
14-06-2017, 11:41 AM
I read the grenfell residents blog and they predicted a block fire that would be cost a huge number of human life due to the under funding and horrendous treatment of residences safety in 2013 !!!!!!!!!! . I thank Christ I don't live in a high rise anymore, I've been in two fires and the smoke and heat is indescribable . Those poor poor people
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https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/amp/
I read the grenfell residents blog and they predicted a block fire that would be cost a huge number of human life due to the under funding and horrendous treatment of residences safety in 2013 !!!!!!!!!! . I thank Christ I don't live in a high rise anymore, I've been in two fires and the smoke and heat is indescribable . Those poor poor people
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There's a lot of these buildings around and they're way past their design life. Replacing them's pretty complex even when you have the kind of values you can get in London. I've done a few and it takes a long, long time.
Hibbycol
14-06-2017, 11:50 AM
Something has to change in the safety of these buildings, sadly it ALWAYS takes a disaster or people dying for this to happen . It's very very sad
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lord bunberry
14-06-2017, 12:05 PM
I've just seen the pictures on the news. I fear the death toll will rise a fair bit. What an absolutely sickening sight to see, it couldn't have happened at a worse time either.
I really hope everyone else has managed to get out alive.
Scouse Hibee
14-06-2017, 12:29 PM
Horrendous and happened at the worst possible time for occupancy. As in most fires many have probably sadly perished through smoke inhalation.
ColinNish
14-06-2017, 12:35 PM
Residents told in the event of fire to stay on their flats. Good grief what a tragedy.
Because that's what you are supposed to do if you live in a high rise flat. They are designed so that any fire that breaks out is contained in the flat it broke out in. Not sure what happened in this case.
Hibbycol
14-06-2017, 12:44 PM
I lived at one of the highrises in the calders a few years ago when a fire broke out and we where all evacuated by the emergency services , thick black smoke like hell , fumbling our way down the stairs , very frightening . A plan was in place in my experience but none as far as I have seen or heard via BBC news in the London high rise. Bloody shocking if it so .
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Scouse Hibee
14-06-2017, 12:45 PM
Because that's what you are supposed to do if you live in a high rise flat. They are designed so that any fire that breaks out is contained in the flat it broke out in. Not sure what happened in this case.
Could be a simple case of the door to the flat where it started being opened or the fire stopping in service ducts etc being breached by works carried out and never sealed again.
Alex Trager
14-06-2017, 12:53 PM
It's just mental that these *******s who are the facility managers ignored them time after time.
Why did the council not listen?
Why did the council continue with that company?
Why did the company threaten 60% of the people in the action group because they were trying to prevent this?
Why?
Because they got their cash so it's all sound.
What a tragic disaster.
It is so extremely frustrating to hear folk on the radio time after time, interview after interview, saying that this was a huge concern to them.
I believe the same company were involved in a similar incident a few years ago.
It makes you sick.
Peevemor
14-06-2017, 01:13 PM
From the eye witness reports, the fire seems to have spread via the outside of the building, which during the recent tart-up was clad with composite aluminium/insulation sandwich panels (and curtain walling). People said that the panels were bursting into flames one after another.
There are regulations in place to prevent this sort of spread of flame in high rise buildings, ie. the insulating material in the panel and fire breaks in any ventilation gaps behind the panels. It'll be interesting to see if somebody is found to have cut corners.
Hibernia&Alba
14-06-2017, 02:05 PM
So many questions to be answered here, from building materials used to fire evacuation procedures. For an entire block to be ablaze within minutes is very worrying. A terrible tragedy.
Something has to change in the safety of these buildings, sadly it ALWAYS takes a disaster or people dying for this to happen . It's very very sad
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There seems to have been something seriously wrong here. There was a fire in the Trellick Tower a couple of weeks back and it stayed within the flat. There was another a year or so ago in South London which was contained on one floor.
From the eye witness reports, the fire seems to have spread via the outside of the building, which during the recent tart-up was clad with composite aluminium/insulation sandwich panels (and curtain walling). People said that the panels were bursting into flames one after another.
There are regulations in place to prevent this sort of spread of flame in high rise buildings, ie. the insulating material in the panel and fire breaks in any ventilation gaps behind the panels. It'll be interesting to see if somebody is found to have cut corners.
You might recall a building in the UAE going up like that not so long ago.
speedy_gonzales
14-06-2017, 03:05 PM
Woke up this morning and the first thing I saw on social media was a comment by an "engineer" blaming the cladding.
Obviously far too early to know all the facts but he seemed to be convinced it was a combination of a "plastic" and a metal fire,,,,I do know metal fires are very difficult to control, especially if fuelled, normally electricity but in this case possibly plastics.
frazeHFC
14-06-2017, 03:47 PM
It's horrible hearing some of the stories about people jumping from their flats to avoid the fire. It seems a number of children were saved though by their parents throwing them from windows. A baby was dropped from the 9th or 10th floor and caught by a man on the ground according to an eye witness.
ColinNish
14-06-2017, 03:47 PM
Woke up this morning and the first thing I saw on social media was a comment by an "engineer" blaming the cladding.
Obviously far too early to know all the facts but he seemed to be convinced it was a combination of a "plastic" and a metal fire,,,,I do know metal fires are very difficult to control, especially if fuelled, normally electricity but in this case possibly plastics.
Yeah, get where you're coming from. First heard about the fire on radio news and thought "it'll have been contained to a couple of floors". Was shocked when a saw pictures on BBC website, the whole thing was on fire! Defo something dodgy.
The_Exile
14-06-2017, 03:49 PM
https://twitter.com/luciajwalker/status/874808864327307264
Stomach churning, knowing there's people inside that is just sickening.
overdrive
14-06-2017, 03:51 PM
From the eye witness reports, the fire seems to have spread via the outside of the building, which during the recent tart-up was clad with composite aluminium/insulation sandwich panels (and curtain walling). People said that the panels were bursting into flames one after another.
There are regulations in place to prevent this sort of spread of flame in high rise buildings, ie. the insulating material in the panel and fire breaks in any ventilation gaps behind the panels. It'll be interesting to see if somebody is found to have cut corners.
I read earlier that the company that installed the panels went into administration shortly after the work was completed... read into that what you will in terms of corners being cut.
cabbageandribs1875
14-06-2017, 04:05 PM
confirmed 12 fatalities, more to come ; Met police
18 receiving critical care
Hibernia&Alba
14-06-2017, 06:05 PM
https://twitter.com/luciajwalker/status/874808864327307264
Stomach churning, knowing there's people inside that is just sickening.
Incredible how the entire block was engulfed like that.
I lived at one of the highrises in the calders a few years ago when a fire broke out and we where all evacuated by the emergency services , thick black smoke like hell , fumbling our way down the stairs , very frightening . A plan was in place in my experience but none as far as I have seen or heard via BBC news in the London high rise. Bloody shocking if it so .
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The Calder flats are similar in the way they've been renovated. They used to be solid concrete but were done up with aluminium cladding in the late eighties as were the ones at Wester Hailes. Unless my memory is playing tricks.
Different times so probably different methods and materials but you wonder if questions will now be asked.
Peevemor
14-06-2017, 09:34 PM
The Calder flats are similar in the way they've been renovated. They used to be solid concrete but were done up with aluminium cladding in the late eighties as were the ones at Wester Hailes. Unless my memory is playing tricks.
Different times so probably different methods and materials but you wonder if questions will now be asked.
Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.
The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.
There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.
Sir David Gray
14-06-2017, 10:05 PM
I've just seen the pictures on the news. I fear the death toll will rise a fair bit. What an absolutely sickening sight to see, it couldn't have happened at a worse time either.
I really hope everyone else has managed to get out alive.
Horrendous and happened at the worst possible time for occupancy. As in most fires many have probably sadly perished through smoke inhalation.
They were saying on the news this morning that a lot of the residents in this tower block are Muslim and that this could have possibly saved lives due to the fact that they are observing Ramadan just now and are only eating and drinking during the hours of darkness. Because of when this occurred, a lot of those people would have been awake when the fire broke out, who would otherwise have been sleeping at that time of night.
It's a really awful tragedy and I can't imagine how frightened those people must have been to know that they were effectively trapped in their own homes with no realistic means of escaping the flames and smoke.
PeeJay
15-06-2017, 09:25 AM
Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.
The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.
There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.
Perfectly safe - are you sure? :confused:
"An Aluminium Composite Material or ACM is a generic reference describing a flat panel that consists of a mineral core bonded between two aluminium sheets which many vary from 0.3-0.5mm in thickness. The core is typically a low density material that often incorporates polyethylene (PE) as the major component. Polyethylene is a hydrocarbon based combustible material. The predominant use of hydrocarbon is as a combustible fuel source, consequently, in addition to being a fire hazard (due to its combustibility), an ACM with a PE core is prone to melting, dripping and collapsing."
http://www.sgi-architectural.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/PE-ACM-The-Issue-of-Combustibility.pdf
Perfectly safe - are you sure? :confused:
"An Aluminium Composite Material or ACM is a generic reference describing a flat panel that consists of a mineral core bonded between two aluminium sheets which many vary from 0.3-0.5mm in thickness. The core is typically a low density material that often incorporates polyethylene (PE) as the major component. Polyethylene is a hydrocarbon based combustible material. The predominant use of hydrocarbon is as a combustible fuel source, consequently, in addition to being a fire hazard (due to its combustibility), an ACM with a PE core is prone to melting, dripping and collapsing."
http://www.sgi-architectural.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/PE-ACM-The-Issue-of-Combustibility.pdf
I wonder how it caught fire if it was sandwiched. Unless the heat was high enough to melt the aluminium.
G B Young
15-06-2017, 10:54 AM
Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.
The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.
There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.
Aesthetically, cladding looks good but it would be madness to prioritise making a building look good ahead of making it safe. On a different, but not unrelated safety matter, it was a brick cladding wall which collapsed at Oxgangs primary last year and prompted the closure of a whole load of Edinburgh schools built using the same contractors. You worry about council deals with contractors which compromise the safety of those using the buildings, be that tower blocks or schools. All such work on buildings has to be signed off and must conform to current health and safety standards so it makes you wonder just how stringent these standards are.
Aesthetically, cladding looks good but it would be madness to prioritise making a building look good ahead of making it safe. On a different, but not unrelated safety matter, it was a brick cladding wall which collapsed at Oxgangs primary last year and prompted the closure of a whole load of Edinburgh schools built using the same contractors. You worry about council deals with contractors which compromise the safety of those using the buildings, be that tower blocks or schools. All such work on buildings has to be signed off and must conform to current health and safety standards so it makes you wonder just how stringent these standards are.
The cladding also adds insulation and keeps the rain out. That's more of a driver than aesthetics.
If you don't put the insulation on the outside, its tricky to avoid cold-bridging and interstitial condensation which can cause health and structural problems over time.
The schools problems were to do with missing wall ties. Wall ties are used in cavity wall construction as well so its not related to the technology.
cabbageandribs1875
15-06-2017, 11:54 AM
fatalities have risen to 17 now, with still more expected
ColinNish
15-06-2017, 12:00 PM
fatalities have risen to 17 now, with still more expected
Afraid to say I can't see the fatalities being any less than a hundred :(
From the BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40284233
"Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement."
Rydon also have contracts all over North London for privately funded NHS properties with maintenance contracts that carry on for years, they also do not allow any "cheaper" contractors to carry out any work meaning they bring in their preferred providers resulting in a large amount of a budget is used to pay these contractors which could be spent elsewhere. Crazy to be tied into such a long contract. (this includes light bulbs and screwing anything to a wall etc.)
No bearing on the tragic events but just a bit of information about the firm.
From the BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40284233
"Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement."
Rydon also have contracts all over North London for privately funded NHS properties with maintenance contracts that carry on for years, they also do not allow any "cheaper" contractors to carry out any work meaning they bring in their preferred providers resulting in a large amount of a budget is used to pay these contractors which could be spent elsewhere. Crazy to be tied into such a long contract. (this includes light bulbs and screwing anything to a wall etc.)
No bearing on the tragic events but just a bit of information about the firm.
Public procurement is kafkaesque. If you don't have long term maintenace contracts you need to employ a lot of people to buy stuff which is much more expensive.
Hibernia&Alba
15-06-2017, 04:55 PM
Afraid to say I can't see the fatalities being any less than a hundred :(
That would cause uproar. Obviously something has gone terribly wrong for the fire to spread so quickly and with such intensity.
I read earlier that the company that installed the panels went into administration shortly after the work was completed... read into that what you will in terms of corners being cut.
Or csh flow problems because they weren't being paid on time?
Looking at the example from a similar scheme in the news, the windows were moved out to the line of the cladding with the returns lined in timber. If the void behind the cladding was not firestopped each floor as its supposed to be, it would have travlled up the cavity and into the flat through the window surrounds. I wonder if the panels were fully encapsulated. I suspect not.
https://az750602.vo.msecnd.net/netxstoreviews/assetOriginal/43426_KIP_AUS%20Building%20Facades%20LR.pdf
Worth a look.
http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/
3.3.2
Betty Boop
15-06-2017, 06:35 PM
Lot of people voicing there anger now, they want questions answered.
lyonhibs
15-06-2017, 06:48 PM
Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.
Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.
I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.
Betty Boop
15-06-2017, 06:52 PM
Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.
Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.
I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.
A roaster of the highest order.
Looking at the pics on the internet it doesn't look like a composite panel at all. More like a rainscreen system over insulation between battens. Says the fire spread up 12 storeys in 20 minutes!
The rainscreen (if thats what it was) has completely gone.
The interesting thing about the Dubai cladding fire was that the cladding burned by the interior wasn't that badly damaged.
lord bunberry
15-06-2017, 09:05 PM
Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.
Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.
I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.
I very much doubt anyone will be held properly accountable. If there's found to be someone at fault for this then there should be lengthy prison sentences handed out. It just doesn't seem to happen in this country though.
steakbake
15-06-2017, 09:11 PM
There must be a reason why casualty figures are being drip fed. 600 people lived in the building. I suspect the authorities probably don't know for sure, but if the word was out from the start that hundreds have died, I don't think people would know what to do with their rage.
I imagine it'll be 6 here, 4 there... slow feed of numbers with the real total kind of being obfuscated.
Sylar
15-06-2017, 09:30 PM
There must be a reason why casualty figures are being drip fed. 600 people lived in the building. I suspect the authorities probably don't know for sure, but if the word was out from the start that hundreds have died, I don't think people would know what to do with their rage.
I imagine it'll be 6 here, 4 there... slow feed of numbers with the real total kind of being obfuscated.
I think that's a little cynical. There'll still be areas of the building that won't be fully safe to access just now. I wonder how much structural integrity remains, particularly in those areas that burned longest. I dare say it'll be a gradual sweep and clear process for the investigators/fire fighters (whoever is charged with going through the building looking for casualties).
There are a lot of potential outlets for condemnation here, beyond the cladding - no sensors/sprinkler systems in communal areas, despite that being a key recommendation from the investigation into the last fire that claimed 6 (?) lives in south London. Only one exit staircase for the entire building. And, of course, the cladding itself. It'll also be very interesting to see what the root cause was - there's no speculation that it was indeed the case, but I hope beyond hope it was a horrific accident rather than anything else.
Also, this is something that had been raised by the residents many times in the past, and had fallen on deaf ears. Just a shame it'll take an incident like this for 'lessons to be learned', and hopefully anyone responsible of neglect, ignorance or a lack of action is locked up for their role in this.
Moulin Yarns
15-06-2017, 09:33 PM
Lily Allen said on C4 news she had heard the death toll is likely to be closer to 150.
steakbake
15-06-2017, 09:53 PM
It might be cynical but I may not be wrong. Probably the first time I've ever seen an incident of this scale in which the potential casualty figure is barely mentioned. There'll be a reason for that.
Scouse Hibee
15-06-2017, 10:05 PM
This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
Hibrandenburg
15-06-2017, 10:11 PM
This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
Think a couple of tonnes of aviation fuel and a jumbo crashing into the building at 500mph might make a difference.
Scouse Hibee
15-06-2017, 10:52 PM
Think a couple of tonnes of aviation fuel and a jumbo crashing into the building at 500mph might make a difference.
Yes I obviously get that bit but still had me thinking about it.
Mantis Toboggan
16-06-2017, 12:00 AM
It might be cynical but I may not be wrong. Probably the first time I've ever seen an incident of this scale in which the potential casualty figure is barely mentioned. There'll be a reason for that.
Sounds like they are going to struggle to even find and identify bodies now so they probably genuinely can't put a likely number out.
Is this the first such incident in the UK in a new build tower block?
I've lived in a few new builds down south and I always thought they seemed cheap and flimsy as well as overcrowded.
Hopefully this inquiry will result in real change. There are some incredibly harsh headlines coming out tomorrow, check the Mirror and Metro in particular.
Mantis Toboggan
16-06-2017, 12:03 AM
This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
There is a local guy claiming some sort of conspiracy, Anonymous had the video up earlier. Just seemed like an emotional reaction more than anything else.
hibsbollah
16-06-2017, 05:10 AM
There is a local guy claiming some sort of conspiracy, Anonymous had the video up earlier. Just seemed like an emotional reaction more than anything else.
I think that interview just shows you how some poor Londoners feel about what's happening to their city. It's all about money, most of it Saudi and Russian. Housing policy and austerity have a part to play in this story, and I fully expect Corbyn to point that out.
This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
Different structure. Concrete doesn't buckle in the heat like steel does.
I think that interview just shows you how some poor Londoners feel about what's happening to their city. It's all about money, most of it Saudi and Russian. Housing policy and austerity have a part to play in this story, and I fully expect Corbyn to point that out.
Much of the investment in luxury (empty) flats in prime London is Chinese. Esp from Hong Kong.
Betty Boop
16-06-2017, 09:25 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-theresa-may-michael-portillo-not-use-humanity-visit-kensington-london-residents-a7792776.html
Michael Portillo on Theresa May.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 09:39 AM
Different structure. Concrete doesn't buckle in the heat like steel does.
And hadnt had planes full of jet fuel crash into them at a couple of hundred miles an hour...
And hadnt had planes full of jet fuel crash into them at a couple of hundred miles an hour...
Clearly but the nature of the collapse of the towers was that the fire proofing was compromised, the steel melted and buckled causing stress on the connections between the steel and collapse.
This block is made of concrete which will withstanding fire much better.
Other scenarios are available (i.e. the CIA blew it up).
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 09:45 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-theresa-may-michael-portillo-not-use-humanity-visit-kensington-london-residents-a7792776.html
Michael Portillo on Theresa May.
Its a good example of the difficulties that May now faces, given her weakened position. She is open to attack about everything now.
The tower fire may or may not have something to do with government, nobody knows yet.
And she is just not that sort of touchy-feely person, i dont particuarly care about that. But agree it does continue to make her look feeble when she is percieved to be hiding away from people.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 09:47 AM
Clearly but the nature of the collapse of the towers was that the fire proofing was compromised, the steel melted and buckled causing stress on the connections between the steel and collapse.
This block is made of concrete which will withstanding fire much better.
Other scenarios are available (i.e. the CIA blew it up).
Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 09:47 AM
There's obviously a lot more victims than is being officially announced at the moment and the question is why? If there's an attempt at trying to manage the reaction and grief then hell mend whoever is responsible. This is how conspiracy theories grab hold, if you keep the truth from people they will invent their own.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 09:50 AM
There's obviously a lot more victims than is being officially announced at the moment and the question is why? If there's an attempt at trying to manage the reaction and grief then he'll mend whoever is responsible. This is how conspiracy theories grab hold, if you keep the truth from people they will invent their own.
I iamgine they dont know yet.
They habe no idea who was in the building, and i imagine they will need dental records to identify bodies. Thats if they all habe dental records, and of course they need to find all of fhe bodies and inform families. Given the apparently transitory and international make-up of the residents, that will not be an easy task.
They keep saying they expect the death toll to rise, what else can they say?
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 10:05 AM
I iamgine they dont know yet.
They habe no idea who was in the building, and i imagine they will need dental records to identify bodies. Thats if they all habe dental records, and of course they need to find all of fhe bodies and inform families. Given the apparently transitory and international make-up of the residents, that will not be an easy task.
They keep saying they expect the death toll to rise, what else can they say?
Even in a fire of that magnitude there will be human remains. They also must have figures of how many people are missing. Normally in this kind of situation there are announcements saying how many people have been confirmed as dead and then something along the lines of " #* people are still missing and presumed dead". I think we can safely say that there will be no more survivors found in the building so keeping these figures from the families of those still missing is only prolonging their agony and an extremely cruel thing to do.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 10:11 AM
Even in a fire of that magnitude there will be human remains. They also must have figures of how many people are missing. Normally in this kind of situation there are announcements saying how many people have been confirmed as dead and then something along the lines of " #* people are still missing and presumed dead". I think we can safely say that there will be no more survivors found in the building so keeping these figures from the families of those still missing is only prolonging their agony and an extremely cruel thing to do.
As i say, i imagine it is because they dont know. There are probably areas they havent been into yet, bodies not found, etc
The worst thing they could do just now is give false or inaccurate info.
Your suggestion would do nothing to alleviate suffering, all they would be saying is x people are still unaccounted for. Amd i doubt they even know that figure yet.
I can only imagine how apocolyptically awful the scenes must be inside that building.
Scouse Hibee
16-06-2017, 10:14 AM
Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!
Me too!
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 10:40 AM
As i say, i imagine it is because they dont know. There are probably areas they havent been into yet, bodies not found, etc
The worst thing they could do just now is give false or inaccurate info.
Your suggestion would do nothing to alleviate suffering, all they would be saying is x people are still unaccounted for. Amd i doubt they even know that figure yet.
I can only imagine how apocolyptically awful the scenes must be inside that building.
We'll see. If the death toll rises by a small percentage then I'll agree with you, however if there is a massive rise like some unofficial sources are claiming then someone's at it and the question needs to be asked why? Local anger is rising at the lack of communication, there needs to be transparency here and it certainly doesn't look that way at the moment. Holding back information won't help anyone, least of all those praying for missing family members.
frazeHFC
16-06-2017, 10:51 AM
BBC reporting as many as 76 people could be missing, which you would have to imagine that will soon become a death toll. Terrible how this can happen in this country with all the building and fire standards we have (which obviously aren't enough).
Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!
Same! Infuriates me.
Geo_1875
16-06-2017, 11:03 AM
Its a good example of the difficulties that May now faces, given her weakened position. She is open to attack about everything now.
The tower fire may or may not have something to do with government, nobody knows yet.
And she is just not that sort of touchy-feely person, i dont particuarly care about that. But agree it does continue to make her look feeble when she is percieved to be hiding away from people.
Nobody is asking her to be "touchy-feely". Just turning up at pre-election debates would have been a start. Answering random questions from interviewers and members of the public would have helped. Just showing some human compassion seems to be beyond her. She does face difficulties and she is in a weakened position but that is entirely her own fault.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 11:13 AM
We'll see. If the death toll rises by a small percentage then I'll agree with you, however if there is a massive rise like some unofficial sources are claiming then someone's at it and the question needs to be asked why? Local anger is rising at the lack of communication, there needs to be transparency here and it certainly doesn't look that way at the moment. Holding back information won't help anyone, least of all those praying for missing family members.
It seems like you have already bought into the conspiracy theory.
Who would be at it, amd what would they gain from being at it? And actually while i am asking, what are you suggesting 'they' are 'at'?
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 11:18 AM
Nobody is asking her to be "touchy-feely". Just turning up at pre-election debates would have been a start. Answering random questions from interviewers and members of the public would have helped. Just showing some human compassion seems to be beyond her. She does face difficulties and she is in a weakened position but that is entirely her own fault.
Agree its her own fault, but that is not her style - my point in that lack of a human touch is now much more apparent, and much more of a stick with which to beat her, as a result of her failures.
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 11:39 AM
It seems like you have already bought into the conspiracy theory.
Who would be at it, amd what would they gain from being at it? And actually while i am asking, what are you suggesting 'they' are 'at'?
I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 12:05 PM
I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.
So im not clear what you are getting angry about? Do you think 'they' are witholding info for nefarious means? Im not sure what it is you think they should be doing that they arent doinh?
stantonhibby
16-06-2017, 12:11 PM
I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.
I would imagine those directly involved are under no illusions as to what is happening and will know that it is extremely unlikely that any more survivors will be found. Not really sure what your point is tbh.
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 12:30 PM
So im not clear what you are getting angry about? Do you think 'they' are witholding info for nefarious means? Im not sure what it is you think they should be doing that they arent doinh?
Being open and transparent. It's what the people deserve. They're having to do their own detective work, the police will now have a good idea of how many are still missing, why is this still left to speculation?
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 12:38 PM
I would imagine those directly involved are under no illusions as to what is happening and will know that it is extremely unlikely that any more survivors will be found. Not really sure what your point is tbh.
My point is that there are people running around trying to find loved ones because they were being led to believe that only 17 people were dead so far. The police will have a better idea what the final total might really be because they know how many are still missing. If my family were missing I'm damn sure I'd want to know if there was a chance their among 17 dead or 100 dead. Putting a lid on what they know only reeks of them trying to manage reaction and that's the last thing they should be doing.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 12:48 PM
Being open and transparent. It's what the people deserve. They're having to do their own detective work, the police will now have a good idea of how many are still missing, why is this still left to speculation?
I think you are making some major leaps and assumptions here.
Because how does a (possibly inaccurate) number help anyone? If im missing someone, and the police say 75 are missing, how does that help me if they can't say if it includes the person im missing or not?
And what happens if they say 75 are missing, but the numbet of bodies doesnt tally? Id imagine a badly burned dog couls easily be mistaken for a baby or young child, what if there are people who havent beem reported missing, do theu just stop lookkng once they have hit the 75 number?
They will be methodically and systematically searching and recording what they find - that will be a slow process, amd identifying the bodies will take longer. Its bettwr they are slow amd accurate than they miss something or make a mistake.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 12:54 PM
My point is that there are people running around trying to find loved ones because they were being led to believe that only 17 people were dead so far. The police will have a better idea what the final total might really be because they know how many are still missing. If my family were missing I'm damn sure I'd want to know if there was a chance their among 17 dead or 100 dead. Putting a lid on what they know only reeks of them trying to manage reaction and that's the last thing they should be doing.
And they werent being led to believe, they were being told what presumably the police could confirm.
Hibrandenburg
16-06-2017, 02:10 PM
And they werent being led to believe, they were being told what presumably the police could confirm.
There's people running round hospitals trying to find family. It would appear that protocols used in terrorist attacks are being used and police and hospital staff are being told not to give out information just yet. There's even reports of families having found relatives after looking through hospitals and after being refused information due to protocols that are designed for attacks.
If true then whoever ordered this need to get it sorted so that people can start getting clarity. I don't blame the police, emergency services or hospital staff who are by all measures doing a great job and who also shouldn't be put in this situation. I just saw a report where a father was looking for a kid and was told by one of the firemen that he wasn't allowed to give out any information.
EH6 Hibby
16-06-2017, 02:35 PM
Just read on Facebook that Lily Allen has been dropped from Newsnight for comments she's made about the death toll.
Speaking to Jon Snow, Lily said that the goverment is trying to 'micro-manage' people's grief. "I have never in my life seen an event like this where the death count has been downplayed by mainstream media," she said.
"Seventeen? I'm sorry but I'm hearing from people that the figure is much closer to 150, and that many of those people are children.
"Those are off the record numbers I've been given from policemen and from firemen," she added.
I do find it strange that they can't give at least a rough figure at this stage.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
16-06-2017, 03:07 PM
There's people running round hospitals trying to find family. It would appear that protocols used in terrorist attacks are being used and police and hospital staff are being told not to give out information just yet. There's even reports of families having found relatives after looking through hospitals and after being refused information due to protocols that are designed for attacks.
If true then whoever ordered this need to get it sorted so that people can start getting clarity. I don't blame the police, emergency services or hospital staff who are by all measures doing a great job and who also shouldn't be put in this situation. I just saw a report where a father was looking for a kid and was told by one of the firemen that he wasn't allowed to give out any information.
Reports like that are difficult to interpret without the full context. Id rather wait and ser than rush to judgement.
Moulin Yarns
16-06-2017, 03:40 PM
Breaking news. Residents barged into Kensington town hall to get answers. Crowds outside want meetings and justice. Chants of more than 17.
Authorities need to be prepared to be honest about this. Stop saying 30 dead and be realistic about the numbers.
Maybe 30 bodies recovered and the search for other victims will be thorough and as quickly as possible.
Just Alf
16-06-2017, 03:57 PM
Just reading some of the local news...
In my terms...
I live in a council house in Edinburgh and get a bus to work, my flat is destroyed through no fault of mine, the council will give me a house next week... In Glasgow....
How do I get to my cleaning etc job from there?
PS I'm not sure it's a "totally" council thing, that's just the basic sentiment of what I've read.
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ColinNish
16-06-2017, 04:10 PM
I said it earlier in the thread and I'll say it again. Anyone who thinks the death toll is gonna be less than 100 is just kidding themselves.
ColinNish
16-06-2017, 04:12 PM
Another thing. Seen plenty folk going on about only one stairway in the block to get out. Has anyone been in a multistorey block of flats with more than one stairway? I haven't.
beensaidbefore
16-06-2017, 04:21 PM
Just reading some of the local news...
In my terms...
I live in a council house in Edinburgh and get a bus to work, my flat is destroyed through no fault of mine, the council will give me a house next week... In Glasgow....
How do I get to my cleaning etc job from there?
PS I'm not sure it's a "totally" council thing, that's just the basic sentiment of what I've read.
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If ther are no houses in the area what do they do? Its not just one or two families affected. There must be thousands looking for a new home over and above those who were already looking for a home. Who should get priority and why?
beensaidbefore
16-06-2017, 04:24 PM
I iamgine they dont know yet.
They habe no idea who was in the building, and i imagine they will need dental records to identify bodies. Thats if they all habe dental records, and of course they need to find all of fhe bodies and inform families. Given the apparently transitory and international make-up of the residents, that will not be an easy task.
They keep saying they expect the death toll to rise, what else can they say?
Exactly, its a tricky situation and folk need to have patience to let folk get on with sorting it. Its too early for answers so folk are just filling in the blanks.
Mantis Toboggan
16-06-2017, 04:24 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-theresa-may-michael-portillo-not-use-humanity-visit-kensington-london-residents-a7792776.html
Michael Portillo on Theresa May.
Portillo the compassionate man of the people there.
Irony is not yet dead.
beensaidbefore
16-06-2017, 04:29 PM
I think you are making some major leaps and assumptions here.
Because how does a (possibly inaccurate) number help anyone? If im missing someone, and the police say 75 are missing, how does that help me if they can't say if it includes the person im missing or not?
And what happens if they say 75 are missing, but the numbet of bodies doesnt tally? Id imagine a badly burned dog couls easily be mistaken for a baby or young child, what if there are people who havent beem reported missing, do theu just stop lookkng once they have hit the 75 number?
They will be methodically and systematically searching and recording what they find - that will be a slow process, amd identifying the bodies will take longer. Its bettwr they are slow amd accurate than they miss something or make a mistake.
Sensible post in amongst some wild and unhelpful contributions.
How many homes in that borough are lying empty because they're somebody's investment?
Shelter is one of the most basic human needs and this is what happens when there's an unregulated feeding frenzy.
lapsedhibee
16-06-2017, 04:53 PM
Has anyone been in a multistorey block of flats with more than one stairway?
No, nor a tenement.
Mantis Toboggan
16-06-2017, 04:58 PM
Another thing. Seen plenty folk going on about only one stairway in the block to get out. Has anyone been in a multistorey block of flats with more than one stairway? I haven't.
Yeah I lived in one where you could walk round the floor to a other stair. Unusual as you say.
Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 05:03 PM
How many homes in that borough are lying empty because they're somebody's investment?
Shelter is one of the most basic human needs and this is what happens when there's an unregulated feeding frenzy.
Good point. The housing bubble, particularly in London, is a huge problem for residents and the wider economy. Working people and the poor find themselves priced out of huge areas and have to live in low quality ghettos. All the social housing has been sold off, so there's no affordable rents.
RyeSloan
16-06-2017, 05:26 PM
Good point. The housing bubble, particularly in London, is a huge problem for residents and the wider economy. Working people and the poor find themselves priced out of huge areas and have to live in low quality ghettos. All the social housing has been sold off, so there's no affordable rents.
Yet this was largely social housing was it not? Which had just had millions spent on it.
I'm not getting the connection I'm afraid.
Yet this was largely social housing was it not? Which had just had millions spent on it.
I'm not getting the connection I'm afraid.
It's more about people not being rehoused in the same Borough.
His points about the housing market and inequality are valid though.
Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 05:50 PM
Yet this was largely social housing was it not? Which had just had millions spent on it.
I'm not getting the connection I'm afraid.
Is this particular block council? I don't know, I was making a wider point in relation to Pete's post. There are over a million people waiting for social housing in the UK. So much of it has been sold off, they have no chance of getting one at the moment. We have families in hotels and bed and breakfasts. The housing market is broken. Buy to let is becoming increasingly frequent, which mean housing stock is being bought up by those who already have a home and merely see it as an opportunity to make money from money. Whole areas of London are totally out of the reach of working people, and in effect there is social cleansing on an increasing scale.
RyeSloan
16-06-2017, 05:52 PM
Is this particular block council? I don't know, I was making a wider point in relation to Pete's post. There are over a million people waiting for social housing in the UK. So much of it has been sold off, they have no chance of getting one at the moment. We have families in hotels and bed and breakfasts. The housing market is broken. Buy to let is becoming increasingly frequent, which mean housing stock is being bought up by those who already have a home and merely see it as an opportunity to make money from money.
Maybe so but in what way is that connected to this tragedy?
Just Alf
16-06-2017, 05:53 PM
If ther are no houses in the area what do they do? Its not just one or two families affected. There must be thousands looking for a new home over and above those who were already looking for a home. Who should get priority and why?
I know what you're saying, and, basically agree, I was just trying to get over what's happening locally and how folks are feeling... Don't have the detail but apparently they have as much empty housing as we do in Edinburgh
Edit... Reading further on this tread I see it's already being discussed... Apologies
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Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 05:58 PM
Maybe so but in what way is that connected to this tragedy?
It depends what the investigation reveals. The fact the fire spread so quickly is a major concern. Were corners cut during the refurbishment, for example? Time will tell, but that building went up like a pair of nylon pyjamas. Are poor people increasingly being forced into unsafe, low quality housing, due to lack of affordable alternatives?
Maybe so but in what way is that connected to this tragedy?
It's more to do with the protests that are happening now. The inequality is being brought into focus.
beensaidbefore
16-06-2017, 06:07 PM
I know what you're saying, and, basically agree, I was just trying to get over what's happening locally and how folks are feeling... Don't have the detail but apparently they have as much empty housing as we do in Edinburgh
Edit... Reading further on this tread I see it's already being discussed... Apologies
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Its a nightmare whatever way you think about it. The more you hear the more you realise the enormity of the challenge.
Just Alf
16-06-2017, 06:12 PM
Its a nightmare whatever way you think about it. The more you hear the more you realise the enormity of the challenge.
agreed its just horrible... I can't help relating it to my own family who are of similar ages.
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Betty Boop
16-06-2017, 06:28 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors
Surprise surprise, the cladding used was the cheap option.
RyeSloan
16-06-2017, 06:41 PM
It depends what the investigation reveals. The fact the fire spread so quickly is a major concern. Were corners cut during the refurbishment, for example? Time will tell, but that building went up like a pair of nylon pyjamas. Are poor people increasingly being forced into unsafe, low quality housing, due to lack of affordable alternatives?
I agree 100% but the key point is that the investigation has not even started yet. The building also just had millions spent on it yet clearly something has gone horribly wrong. Is that connected to decades of shan housing policy or just bungled work or can we trace it to the Bank of England falsely holding down interest rates or rich folk buying posh houses down the road I have no idea and either does anybody else I would imagine. That doesn't seem to be stopping people using the tragedy to make political points based on little or no information though.
Let's see the facts then make the judgment...it seems to me that already in some quarters the people that have been horrendously impacted by this are second to the point scoring. It sickens me a bit to be honest.
Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 07:05 PM
I agree 100% but the key point is that the investigation has not even started yet. The building also just had millions spent on it yet clearly something has gone horribly wrong. Is that connected to decades of shan housing policy or just bungled work or can we trace it to the Bank of England falsely holding down interest rates or rich folk buying posh houses down the road I have no idea and either does anybody else I would imagine. That doesn't seem to be stopping people using the tragedy to make political points based on little or no information though.
Let's see the facts then make the judgment...it seems to me that already in some quarters the people that have been horrendously impacted by this are second to the point scoring. It sickens me a bit to be honest.
I get where you're coming from, though I haven't heard anyone trying to score political points before considering the experience of the residents. It's the residents themselves who are very angry, and understandably so. There are protests growing in the area right now. It's being reported that some residents of Greenfell did indeed raise their concerns about safety in the block. There are genuine questions regarding the lack of quality housing across the country for those on low incomes; a debate that goes back many years. The inquiry will no doubt address those questions and look at systemic housing shortages and its quality, especially in London.
Breaking news. Residents barged into Kensington town hall to get answers. Crowds outside want meetings and justice. Chants of more than 17.
Authorities need to be prepared to be honest about this. Stop saying 30 dead and be realistic about the numbers.
Maybe 30 bodies recovered and the search for other victims will be thorough and as quickly as possible.
Were they residents? Strikes me this is turning into a bit of a circus!
lapsedhibee
16-06-2017, 07:10 PM
Were they residents? Strikes me this is turning into a bit of a circus!
Not arf. I'm no fan of Theresa May but screaming "murderer" at her? FFS.
Were they residents? Strikes me this is turning into a bit of a circus!
There's a mob outside BBC HQ as well. Looks peaceful enough but why are they there?
Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 07:30 PM
Were they residents? Strikes me this is turning into a bit of a circus!
There are a number of blocks identical to Grenfell in the area. I would imagine residents of those, and of similar estates, are participating. It's understandable they are concerned about the safety of their families. Of course there will also be people who merely are hangers who just want to be part of an event.
marinello59
16-06-2017, 07:53 PM
Were they residents? Strikes me this is turning into a bit of a circus!
It's ordinary people uniting to say enough is enough. Good on them.
bawheid
16-06-2017, 08:14 PM
It's ordinary people uniting to say enough is enough. Good on them.
Absolutely.
It's ordinary people uniting to say enough is enough. Good on them.
As well as the Beckhams and Lily Allen as if to illustrate the inequality in British society that provides the foundation for such disasters.
Have a read of The Spririt Line for the evidence.
frazeHFC
16-06-2017, 09:10 PM
Watching the news is annoying me how people in the area are protesting with their blame aimed at the police and fire brigade, for not entering the building and giving them news of more dead. If the building isn't safe then it should not be entered.
High-On-Hibs
16-06-2017, 09:22 PM
Watching the news is annoying me how people in the area are protesting with their blame aimed at the police and fire brigade, for not entering the building and giving them news of more dead. If the building isn't safe then it should not be entered.
Their blame isn't being aimed at the police or fire brigade at all. The media is just framing it that way. Those who can see beyond it know who they are really angry at.
frazeHFC
16-06-2017, 09:32 PM
Their blame isn't being aimed at the police or fire brigade at all. The media is just framing it that way. Those who can see beyond it know who they are really angry at.
I was paraphrasing what a guy said on the news. He specifically said he was angry with the police and fire brigade and said they aren't doing their job properly.
Their blame isn't being aimed at the police or fire brigade at all. The media is just framing it that way. Those who can see beyond it know who they are really angry at.
The middle class media who lionise the Beckhams, Allen and adelle for their guest appearances?
Socialist Workers in their as usual!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
Hibernia&Alba
16-06-2017, 10:00 PM
Socialist Workers in their as usual!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
A good piece in there by Penny Anderson, linked to what was being discussed earlier. Things have to change.
As the horror of the Grenfell Tower fire (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/grenfell-tower-fire) is gradually revealed, we already know that people are homeless and traumatised, having lost everything, and sometimes everyone they care about. They are bereft, shattered, devastated and in need of help to soothe their sorrow, and of assistance for their practical need.
But one particular aspect is easy to make better, isn’t it? Placing survivors of this horror in London’s vacant property, as David Lammy and Jeremy Corbyn (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-fire-jeremy-corbyn-leads-calls-to-house-grenfell-tower-victims-in-luxury-kensington-homes-a3566261.html) have rightly suggested, is pleasingly and exquisitely simple in its justice (in fact, let’s house all homeless people in the capital’s empty flats).
Stay calm, oh poor benighted rentier class; we can already hear your shrill, entitled whining. Be silent, you wailing investor; we are not coming for your home, we will not evict your family from the country pile. But all those flats you snap up then keep empty to accumulate unearned, undeserved wealth? Let people live in them.
Proudhon (http://www.demos.org/blog/10/8/14/why-property-theft-and-why-it-matters) applies here. Property really is theft when it is grasped greedily and then hoarded, when every home suitable for first-time buyers is placed out of reach. Developments that should contain homes for people to live in are appropriated by the rentier class. This is a major problem in London, but also happens wherever the buy-to-let development industry is rampant – Manchester especially (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/12/blairs-add-manchester-flats-to-property-empire-before-stamp-duty-deadline).
How many empty homes are there in London? Tens of thousands (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/21/tens-thousands-london-homes-deemed-long-term-vacant). Not all are gorgeous mansions in the sky; some are quite ordinary flats but pass for luxurious under London’s febrile through-the-looking-glass housing market, where an ordinary Edwardian terrace in Fulham built to house the working class is now drooled over by millionaires.
When investors have outbid even those few locals who might afford to buy them, do they then live there? Sometimes. Rent them out for a massive profit? Occasionally. All too often new property is bought off-plan by overseas investors who treat robust housing like fragile porcelain ornamental houses, keeping them empty and clear of polluting tenants.
Wander through neighbourhoods favoured by investors and the first thing you notice is silence. There are frequently no children, not even any teenagers hanging around. Some homes are bought by overseas clients (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/13/foreign-investors-snapping-up-london-homes-suitable-for-first-time-buyers) who never see what they own, and who, given the amount of equity they have already acquired, have made a fortune by sitting still and doing nothing.
So let’s nationalise them. Let’s place them in the hands of councils so desperate for affordable homes that they ship homeless people to Peterborough, away from all they know and everything they hold dear.
Vast gated estates of empty investment shells with poor doors render neighbourhoods eerily bleak. Housing (https://www.theguardian.com/society/housing) Grenfell Tower survivors together would revitalise arid property prairies where nobody lives but where rich people invest. Squatting is so restricted by new laws as to be impossible, so that option is closed. Kindly expropriation – owners could even be paid rents by government – will open up empty flats, even entire blocks, ideally containing top-of-the-range sprinkler systems and with all cladding the best that money can buy. These properties will be fireproof, shiny and classy, with all internal fittings extravagant. The grander, the better.
I can envisage mass compulsory purchase orders affecting not the poorer people in the way of a new development, as is generally the case, but displacing those who collect a property portfolio as others hoard boxed Stars Wars figures. These property owners do nothing except splurge at an auction overseas (many councils even visit the property market in Cannes (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/14/anger-cannes-property-fair-councils-developers-mipim)to encourage them). The money amassed by the privileged few is obscene.
In most of London, property has been earning more each year from rising prices (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/nov/27/london-house-prices-workers-pay)than a firefighter does from saving lives. Empty property should be bought up, then placed under a brand new arm’s-length management organisation. After which, I suggest, leave it in perpetuity as social housing. Otherwise, who will teach, drive and serve coffee to London’s rich?
And if these properties are top-end flats, with swimming pools and a concierge, marble fittings, en-suites throughout and balconies with a view? Even better. After what they have been through, this wonderful, strong community deserves the very best that investors could buy.
Hibernia&Alba
17-06-2017, 12:31 AM
Aamer Anwar: People died because they are poor and because of housing policy. Fair?
https://youtu.be/Q6pKGEeNs74
steakbake
17-06-2017, 12:52 AM
Aamer Anwar: People died because they are poor and because of housing policy. Fair?
https://youtu.be/Q6pKGEeNs74
I don't know how anyone can reasonably disagree
Hibrandenburg
17-06-2017, 06:49 AM
It's ordinary people uniting to say enough is enough. Good on them.
:agree:
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 07:22 AM
There's a mob outside BBC HQ as well. Looks peaceful enough but why are they there?
All turning a bit unsavoury imo.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 07:24 AM
I don't know how anyone can reasonably disagree
Because nobody knows yet what has happened, but of course many will still pretend they do for some easy publicity.
marinello59
17-06-2017, 07:33 AM
Because nobody knows yet what has happened, but of course many will still pretend they do for some easy publicity.
Or they are speaking up for a community who are genuinely angry and need people to express their long held concerns now rather than letting them be quietly forgotten.
lapsedhibee
17-06-2017, 07:35 AM
Aamer Anwar: People died because they are poor and because of housing policy. Fair?
I believe he's correct that safety standards of all sorts will tumble after brexit. I don't believe it's right that only poor people in this country are at risk from fire. There will be many, many multi-storey buildings in Morningside, Merchiston, the West End, etc, which don't have sprinklers, communal fire alarms, two stairwells, or any of the other things that commentators are braying should have been installed before this fire. These buildings probably don't have cheap plasticky cladding on the outside, but the idea that cheap materials are chosen/corners are cut on public sector buildings only, and not on private sector buildings, is imo wrongheaded.
heretoday
17-06-2017, 07:51 AM
Their blame isn't being aimed at the police or fire brigade at all. The media is just framing it that way. Those who can see beyond it know who they are really angry at.
All the same the emergency services have come under flak in the past. That's why they frequently come forward in a phalanx to face the media after every major incident nowadays.
And when they threaten industrial action they are virtually accused of treason.
ColinNish
17-06-2017, 08:09 AM
I believe he's correct that safety standards of all sorts will tumble after brexit. I don't believe it's right that only poor people in this country are at risk from fire. There will be many, many multi-storey buildings in Morningside, Merchiston, the West End, etc, which don't have sprinklers, communal fire alarms, two stairwells, or any of the other things that commentators are braying should have been installed before this fire. These buildings probably don't have cheap plasticky cladding on the outside, but the idea that cheap materials are chosen/corners are cut on public sector buildings only, and not on private sector buildings, is imo wrongheaded.
A multi in Morningside. Where is this?
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 08:12 AM
Or they are speaking up for a community who are genuinely angry and need people to express their long held concerns now rather than letting them be quietly forgotten.
You have a kinder interpretation of amer anwar than me, it seems!
There are three separate inquiries going, and ongoing recovery.
Im not sure what else anyone can expect of a govt 3 days after it had happened?
The NHS and emergency services have stepped up. If there had brrn something wrongly done around housing polixy, or the apllication of that policy, then heads should roll. But we wont know that for some time.
I agree positive action should come from this, but raging at 'the tories' or ' the police' or 'the establishment' smacks of people scapegoating organisations that they dont like anyway, and that they want to be responsible for this tragedy.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 08:13 AM
A multi in Morningside. Where is this?
I think he was maybe referring to tenements
s.a.m
17-06-2017, 08:45 AM
I think he was maybe referring to tenements
:agree: There are also some modern blocks of flats in Morningside - not high-rises, but the are definitely quite a lot of multi-occupant properties in the area.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 09:41 AM
I see the grenfell protest is today going to join forces with an anti-tory march. The motivations of the protesters seem a bit clearer now.
Elephant Stone
17-06-2017, 11:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY1NlPk5YY
Imagine voting for this. Pretty incredible levels of arrogance in her avoiding anything resembling an answer to important and absolutely fair questions. I can't remember seeing a politician - never mind a PM - being so inept in every way. A card-board cut out of a Prime Minister and a total bitch.
lapsedhibee
17-06-2017, 11:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY1NlPk5YY
Imagine voting for this. Pretty incredible levels of arrogance in her avoiding anything resembling an answer to important and absolutely fair questions. I can't remember seeing a politician - never mind a PM - being so inept in every way. A card-board cut out of a Prime Minister and a total bitch.
Agree she's not good enough to be prime minister, but the constant haranguing of politicians to say "Yes it was my fault that this happened" when it clearly wasn't is incredibly tiresome.
steakbake
17-06-2017, 01:00 PM
I see the grenfell protest is today going to join forces with an anti-tory march. The motivations of the protesters seem a bit clearer now.
Tory council, warned again and again by residents about safety. Tory ministers who cut landlord regulation. Tory austerity which outsources the functions of the council to the cheapest bidder.
So yes, it seems clear to me that there's a cross over.
ColinNish
17-06-2017, 01:11 PM
:agree: There are also some modern blocks of flats in Morningside - not high-rises, but the are definitely quite a lot of multi-occupant properties in the area.
A tenement or modern block of flats is not the same as a multi storey - not by a long shot.
ronaldo7
17-06-2017, 07:28 PM
I don't know whether this photo is real, however, why the hell did the British establishment decide to troop the colour today. Absolutely no need to go ahead with this. Rubs salt into the wounds of the Grenfell site families.
18765
lord bunberry
17-06-2017, 08:02 PM
I don't know whether this photo is real, however, why the hell did the British establishment decide to troop the colour today. Absolutely no need to go ahead with this. Rubs salt into the wounds of the Grenfell site families.
18765
They do it because it's just what they do. It's been the same for hundreds of years. The particular events may change, but the sentiment remains the same.
ronaldo7
17-06-2017, 08:10 PM
They do it because it's just what they do. It's been the same for hundreds of years. The particular events may change, but the sentiment remains the same.
Off to Ascot next week then, and the plebs can get on with sifting through the wreckage for their lives.
lord bunberry
17-06-2017, 08:47 PM
Off to Ascot next week then, and the plebs can get on with sifting through the wreckage for their lives.
They have one goal in life and that's to produce an heir. They'll pay lip service to events, but that's all it is. I would hope an independent Scotland would have no place for their kind.
They have one goal in life and that's to produce an heir. They'll pay lip service to events, but that's all it is. I would hope an independent Scotland would have no place for their kind.
Is that the Beckhms, Adele, Lily Allen or Theresa May?
CapitalGreen
17-06-2017, 09:34 PM
I don't know whether this photo is real, however, why the hell did the British establishment decide to troop the colour today. Absolutely no need to go ahead with this. Rubs salt into the wounds of the Grenfell site families.
18765
I think the sky being 2 different shades of blues gives away that it is not real.
lord bunberry
17-06-2017, 09:34 PM
Is that the Beckhms, Adele, Lily Allen or Theresa May?
That's modern day royalty. Same principle applies.
That's modern day royalty. Same principle applies.
In turning up and rubber necking at the scene they seem to be missing the point on inequality.
steakbake
17-06-2017, 09:40 PM
I don't know whether this photo is real, however, why the hell did the British establishment decide to troop the colour today. Absolutely no need to go ahead with this. Rubs salt into the wounds of the Grenfell site families.
18765
ICYMI I was quite staggered to hear of the band at the trooping of the colour playing the sash to mark the invasion of Ireland by William of Orange.
https://twitter.com/ianpaisleymp/status/875968924361396225
lord bunberry
17-06-2017, 09:47 PM
In turning up and rubber necking at the scene they seem to be missing the point on inequality.
Indeed, but that's not why they're there. The big issue in this country right now is the gap between those who have the wealth and those who die in tower block fires. Inequality is unfair and the people are starting to realise it.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2017, 10:03 PM
I don't know whether this photo is real, however, why the hell did the British establishment decide to troop the colour today. Absolutely no need to go ahead with this. Rubs salt into the wounds of the Grenfell site families.
18765
I would bet money that pic isn't real.
And i would bet money that you know it isnt real.
That is literally fake news that you are spreading.
silverhibee
17-06-2017, 10:11 PM
Police now say at least 58 people died in the Grenfell Tower block tragedy.
Metropolitan Police Commander Stuart Cundy, the officer in charge of the investigation, said: "Sadly at this time, there are 58 people who we have been told were in Grenfell Tower on the night that are missing and therefore sadly I have to assume that they are dead."
lord bunberry
17-06-2017, 10:18 PM
I would bet money that pic isn't real.
It might as well be though. It illustrates the divide in this country. Why should a child live in poverty while someone else lives in luxury? We are all human beings and the current system is completely flawed. I read you saying that this shouldn't be politicised, but that's exactly what it is. However you look at things it can't be seen as humane or fair. Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated? Does life really need to be this way?
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 06:47 AM
[QUOTE=lord bunberry;5074230]It might as well be though. It illustrates the divide in this country. Why should a child live in poverty while someone else lives in luxury? We are all human beings and the current system is completely flawed. I read you saying that this shouldn't be politicised, but that's exactly what it is. However you look at things it can't be seen as humane or fair. Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated? Does life really need to be this
Yeah but snidey, fake pictures dont help - it is the very definition of fake news. That picture infers a reality, that simply isnt there - it is literally fake.
So we are allowed to go on with fitba matches and concertd etc after tragedies, but not the trooping of the colour? Why not?
Fair questions, and clearly the economic system needs reformed, but we live in one of the best countries in the world - the emergency services that are being lauded, the treatment that people recieve and the education system thst gives people the chance to get on, all provided free to the user by the govt that many are slating.
Yes they may need reformed, and yes they may need more money, but i do think it is worth remembering that govts dont have money, all they do is take money from society and business and redistribute it - and so it isnt as easy as jusy saying 'they should do more to help'.
If it turns out there is something wrong or sinister about the work done on the tower, whoever is to blame should be hammered. My own suspicions, based on not much at all, are that it is probably part of a wider problem of local authority dodgy dealings, such as we have seen recently in Edinburgh with trams, communal roof repairs and the schools scandal. Lots of money in local govt, and very little accountability and governance - but that is based on my own assumptions and nothing more.
Your wider points about inequality, i dont know, its a very complex issue. Im not sure i agree it is even a good measure, as surely what matters is equality of opportunity, and also not how big the gap is betweeen richest and poorest, but how high the level of the poorest is - equality can be an oppressive and inhuman driver if it means there is no incentive for the lucky, the clever, the hard working, the industrious. We tried that all across eastern europe amd it collapsed in on itself.
That doesnt mean we dont need to look at issues you raise, but none of it is simple or easy to put right.
judas
18-06-2017, 07:15 AM
[QUOTE=lord bunberry;5074230]It might as well be though. It illustrates the divide in this country. Why should a child live in poverty while someone else lives in luxury? We are all human beings and the current system is completely flawed. I read you saying that this shouldn't be politicised, but that's exactly what it is. However you look at things it can't be seen as humane or fair. Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated? Does life really need to be this
Yeah but snidey, fake pictures dont help - it is the very definition of fake news. That picture infers a reality, that simply isnt there - it is literally fake.
So we are allowed to go on with fitba matches and concertd etc after tragedies, but not the trooping of the colour? Why not?
Fair questions, and clearly the economic system needs reformed, but we live in one of the best countries in the world - the emergency services that are being lauded, the treatment that people recieve and the education system thst gives people the chance to get on, all provided free to the user by the govt that many are slating.
Yes they may need reformed, and yes they may need more money, but i do think it is worth remembering that govts dont have money, all they do is take money from society and business and redistribute it - and so it isnt as easy as jusy saying 'they should do more to help'.
If it turns out there is something wrong or sinister about the work done on the tower, whoever is to blame should be hammered. My own suspicions, based on not much at all, are that it is probably part of a wider problem of local authority dodgy dealings, such as we have seen recently in Edinburgh with trams, communal roof repairs and the schools scandal. Lots of money in local govt, and very little accountability and governance - but that is based on my own assumptions and nothing more.
Your wider points about inequality, i dont know, its a very complex issue. Im not sure i agree it is even a good measure, as surely what matters is equality of opportunity, and also not how big the gap is betweeen richest and poorest, but how high the level of the poorest is - equality can be an oppressive and inhuman driver if it means there is no incentive for the lucky, the clever, the hard working, the industrious. We tried that all across eastern europe amd it collapsed in on itself.
That doesnt mean we dont need to look at issues you raise, but none of it is simple or easy to put right.
This
Mon Dieu4
18-06-2017, 07:33 AM
[QUOTE=lord bunberry;5074230]It might as well be though. It illustrates the divide in this country. Why should a child live in poverty while someone else lives in luxury? We are all human beings and the current system is completely flawed. I read you saying that this shouldn't be politicised, but that's exactly what it is. However you look at things it can't be seen as humane or fair. Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated? Does life really need to be this
Yeah but snidey, fake pictures dont help - it is the very definition of fake news. That picture infers a reality, that simply isnt there - it is literally fake.
So we are allowed to go on with fitba matches and concertd etc after tragedies, but not the trooping of the colour? Why not?
Fair questions, and clearly the economic system needs reformed, but we live in one of the best countries in the world - the emergency services that are being lauded, the treatment that people recieve and the education system thst gives people the chance to get on, all provided free to the user by the govt that many are slating.
Yes they may need reformed, and yes they may need more money, but i do think it is worth remembering that govts dont have money, all they do is take money from society and business and redistribute it - and so it isnt as easy as jusy saying 'they should do more to help'.
If it turns out there is something wrong or sinister about the work done on the tower, whoever is to blame should be hammered. My own suspicions, based on not much at all, are that it is probably part of a wider problem of local authority dodgy dealings, such as we have seen recently in Edinburgh with trams, communal roof repairs and the schools scandal. Lots of money in local govt, and very little accountability and governance - but that is based on my own assumptions and nothing more.
Your wider points about inequality, i dont know, its a very complex issue. Im not sure i agree it is even a good measure, as surely what matters is equality of opportunity, and also not how big the gap is betweeen richest and poorest, but how high the level of the poorest is - equality can be an oppressive and inhuman driver if it means there is no incentive for the lucky, the clever, the hard working, the industrious. We tried that all across eastern europe amd it collapsed in on itself.
That doesnt mean we dont need to look at issues you raise, but none of it is simple or easy to put right.
Governments do have money but choose to spend it on the wrong things like weapons of mass destruction
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 07:45 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074310]
Governments do have money but choose to spend it on the wrong things like weapons of mass destruction
Its still taxpayers' money.
Mon Dieu4
18-06-2017, 07:48 AM
[QUOTE=Mon Dieu4;5074345]
Its still taxpayers' money.
And I'd rather that they spent it on making a fairer society for all instead of weapons they can never use and vanity projects like fast trains
lapsedhibee
18-06-2017, 07:50 AM
Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated?
One of the reasons it's tolerated is because in the namby pamby politically correct liberal society we live in it's currently considered unacceptable to take children away from their idiot parents at birth and drill them not to grow up to be fat, fag-ridden, beer-swilling sectarian clowns like in Govan (lowest life expectancy in Britain).
On all the TV coverage of the tower block tragedy over the last week (Kensington & Chelsea, highest life expectancy in Britain) I haven't seen anyone drunk, smoking or chanting about kaffliks. Maybe just the rich media establishment types injecting bias into their covfefe, but I doubt it.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074355]
And I'd rather that they spent it on making a fairer society for all instead of weapons they can never use and vanity projects like fast trains
The difficulty being your idea of a 'fairer society' is completely different from someone elses.
Thats a rhetorical phrase, that is trite, vaccuous amd meaningless. Its like saying "im for good things, and against bad things"
Mon Dieu4
18-06-2017, 08:01 AM
[QUOTE=Mon Dieu4;5074359]
The difficulty being your idea of a 'fairer society' is completely different from someone elses.
Thats a rhetorical phrase, that is trite, vaccuous amd meaningless. Its like saying "im for good things, and against bad things"
There is absolutely no justification that when children are having to be fed by food banks that we are spending over £100 billion on nukes, £56 billion on trains and giving £93 billion in grants to businesses all while cutting funding to social care and the emergency services
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 08:32 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074366]
There is absolutely no justification that when children are having to be fed by food banks that we are spending over £100 billion on nukes, £56 billion on trains and giving £93 billion in grants to businesses all while cutting funding to social care and the emergency services
In your opinion.
Others, including Corbyn, seem to disagree.
ronaldo7
18-06-2017, 08:33 AM
I would bet money that pic isn't real.
And i would bet money that you know it isnt real.
That is literally fake news that you are spreading.
I really didn't, you know.
I bet the aircraft were flying over London yesterday marking the trooping of the colour though, whilst the plebs were looking for somewhere to stay.
The choices made on this subject from local and national government show me, they really don't care for the people they're supposed to serve.
I really didn't, you know.
I bet the aircraft were flying over London yesterday marking the trooping of the colour though, whilst the plebs were looking for somewhere to stay.
The choices made on this subject from local and national government show me, they really don't care for the people they're supposed to serve.
They were. They flew overhead heading towards St James' Park when I was in Charing Cross Road in the afternoon. Spitfires, Nimrods, Hercules, Vulcans and the Red Arrows. Very impressive.
RyeSloan
18-06-2017, 09:41 AM
They were. They flew overhead heading towards St James' Park when I was in Charing Cross Road in the afternoon. Spitfires, Nimrods, Hercules, Vulcans and the Red Arrows. Very impressive.
I didn't realise the Vulcan was still flying...amazing plane to see up close, last saw it at Leuchars a few years ago. The story of their Falklands bombing raid is quite amazing.
RyeSloan
18-06-2017, 09:44 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074366]
There is absolutely no justification that when children are having to be fed by food banks that we are spending over £100 billion on nukes, £56 billion on trains and giving £93 billion in grants to businesses all while cutting funding to social care and the emergency services
Yet if the nukes prevent others from launching them, the trains allow commerce and wealth to be spread across the country and the business grants allow employment and wealth creation and tax revenue to grow then they are all contributing to the nation and thus allowing its children to be fed.
RyeSloan
18-06-2017, 09:51 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074310]
Governments do have money but choose to spend it on the wrong things like weapons of mass destruction
They don't have money...they are given it by the taxpayer (or recently the BoE which handily provided half a trillion pounds) or borrow it (against future tax revenue of course!).
I'm constantly amazed that all people seem to do is moan about the government not doing this or not spending that but their solutions almost always involve MORE government.
Same with some of the comments on here. The housing inequality needs government intervention yet the block was effectively social housing that had millions of taxpayers money spent on it and of course the housing issues we face today are almost all government created...
Mon Dieu4
18-06-2017, 09:52 AM
Yet if the nukes prevent others from launching them, the trains allow commerce and wealth to be spread across the country and the business grants allow employment and wealth creation and tax revenue to grow then they are all contributing to the nation and thus allowing its children to be fed.
I don't buy the whole if we have them others won't use them argument I'm afraid, it's trotted out to keep the status quo in my opinion, I also don't think that HS2 will bring wealth to anywhere other than London, as for the grants to companies, fine for small and medium start ups but the majority of big business can more than afford it without them and besides not all the children are being fed so it's clearly not working
lord bunberry
18-06-2017, 10:44 AM
[QUOTE=Mon Dieu4;5074372]
Yet if the nukes prevent others from launching them, the trains allow commerce and wealth to be spread across the country and the business grants allow employment and wealth creation and tax revenue to grow then they are all contributing to the nation and thus allowing its children to be fed.
Wealth creation for who?
From the eye witness reports, the fire seems to have spread via the outside of the building, which during the recent tart-up was clad with composite aluminium/insulation sandwich panels (and curtain walling). People said that the panels were bursting into flames one after another.
There are regulations in place to prevent this sort of spread of flame in high rise buildings, ie. the insulating material in the panel and fire breaks in any ventilation gaps behind the panels. It'll be interesting to see if somebody is found to have cut corners.
It looks like it was insulation between battens then overclad with a rainscreen panel. The rainscreen is a thin sandwich of aluminium and polyethylene foam. Polyethylene is flammable and burns quite readily. Aluminium melts at 660 degrees C. Add that to a lack of firebreaks in the cavities and its pretty clear that this type of cladding is a death trap. There is probably loads of it on new and old buildings up and down the country. They will be uninsurable now.
Peevemor
18-06-2017, 11:57 AM
It looks like it was insulation between battens then overclad with a rainscreen panel. The rainscreen is a thin sandwich of aluminium and polyethylene foam. Polyethylene is flammable and burns quite readily. Aluminium melts at 660 degrees C. Add that to a lack of firebreaks in the cavities and its pretty clear that this type of cladding is a death trap. There is probably loads of it on new and old buildings up and down the country. They will be uninsurable now.
I saw something on line yesterday where it was confirmed that certain high rises in Glasgow had been spruced on a similar basis, but the correct panels (ie. with inflammable mineral fibre insulation) had been used.
I specify these sort of products very regularly, and the guidelines, test certificates, etc. are explicit. For certain categories (usage) and forms of building the polyethylene core is fine, otherwise you have to go non-combustible.
Someone involved in the Grenfell rehabilitation has made a very serious error. It shouldn't take much investigation to found out who.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=Mon Dieu4;5074372]
Yet if the nukes prevent others from launching them, the trains allow commerce and wealth to be spread across the country and the business grants allow employment and wealth creation and tax revenue to grow then they are all contributing to the nation and thus allowing its children to be fed.
The quotes have got a bit messed up, i didnt say that, i quoted it to respond to.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=Mon Dieu4;5074345]
They don't have money...they are given it by the taxpayer (or recently the BoE which handily provided half a trillion pounds) or borrow it (against future tax revenue of course!).
I'm constantly amazed that all people seem to do is moan about the government not doing this or not spending that but their solutions almost always involve MORE government.
Same with some of the comments on here. The housing inequality needs government intervention yet the block was effectively social housing that had millions of taxpayers money spent on it and of course the housing issues we face today are almost all government created...
Again i didnt day the above, i responded to it - dunno what has happened to the quotes.
Im more inclined tp agree with what you have said. This housing block wad the welfare state in action.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
18-06-2017, 12:37 PM
I don't buy the whole if we have them others won't use them argument I'm afraid, it's trotted out to keep the status quo in my opinion, I also don't think that HS2 will bring wealth to anywhere other than London, as for the grants to companies, fine for small and medium start ups but the majority of big business can more than afford it without them and besides not all the children are being fed so it's clearly not working
Personally im not a big fan of HS2 either.
Nukes i believe did stop aggression during the cold war.
Im not sure i believe that children are starving in this country. This isnt ethiopia.
The point is a govt cannot be run to suit everyones persobal agenda, its impossible. Amd im not sure how any of this is related to an apparently botched renovation job.
Betty Boop
18-06-2017, 01:48 PM
Personally im not a big fan of HS2 either.
Nukes i believe did stop aggression during the cold war.
Im not sure i believe that children are starving in this country. This isnt ethiopia.
The point is a govt cannot be run to suit everyones persobal agenda, its impossible. Amd im not sure how any of this is related to an apparently botched renovation job.
You would be surprised. You do realise that people are eating out of food banks, they are absolutely toiling, not just folk on benefits but working.
RyeSloan
18-06-2017, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=RyeSloan;5074447]
Wealth creation for who?
For those people that will use it to travel and do business, for the businesses that benefit from better transportation links, for the companies and employees that build the thing, for communities and business that benefit from its proximity etc etc etc etc
I'm not saying HS2 is perfect but people moan about lack of infrastructure then moan about infrastructure being built. People moan about the south east being a different world then moan about providing fast and effective links from it to the rest of the country. People moan about governments not doing enough or spending enough then moan when they come up with grand plans and big budget expenditure...
I just find that all very odd. Anyway digressing substantially from the OP so will leave it there!
Hibernia&Alba
19-06-2017, 03:28 AM
[QUOTE=lord bunberry;5074230]It might as well be though. It illustrates the divide in this country. Why should a child live in poverty while someone else lives in luxury? We are all human beings and the current system is completely flawed. I read you saying that this shouldn't be politicised, but that's exactly what it is. However you look at things it can't be seen as humane or fair. Life expectancy in some areas is lower than others, why is that being tolerated? Does life really need to be this
Yeah but snidey, fake pictures dont help - it is the very definition of fake news. That picture infers a reality, that simply isnt there - it is literally fake.
So we are allowed to go on with fitba matches and concertd etc after tragedies, but not the trooping of the colour? Why not?
Fair questions, and clearly the economic system needs reformed, but we live in one of the best countries in the world - the emergency services that are being lauded, the treatment that people recieve and the education system thst gives people the chance to get on, all provided free to the user by the govt that many are slating.
Yes they may need reformed, and yes they may need more money, but i do think it is worth remembering that govts dont have money, all they do is take money from society and business and redistribute it - and so it isnt as easy as jusy saying 'they should do more to help'.
If it turns out there is something wrong or sinister about the work done on the tower, whoever is to blame should be hammered. My own suspicions, based on not much at all, are that it is probably part of a wider problem of local authority dodgy dealings, such as we have seen recently in Edinburgh with trams, communal roof repairs and the schools scandal. Lots of money in local govt, and very little accountability and governance - but that is based on my own assumptions and nothing more.
Your wider points about inequality, i dont know, its a very complex issue. Im not sure i agree it is even a good measure, as surely what matters is equality of opportunity, and also not how big the gap is betweeen richest and poorest, but how high the level of the poorest is - equality can be an oppressive and inhuman driver if it means there is no incentive for the lucky, the clever, the hard working, the industrious. We tried that all across eastern europe amd it collapsed in on itself.
That doesnt mean we dont need to look at issues you raise, but none of it is simple or easy to put right.
Totally wrong. Money is a man made system based upon non existent value. Money only has worth because we believe it has worth; in truth 97% of all 'money' is merely electronic numbers on a screen. Furthermore, 'money' created by private baking institutions in the case of 97% of it, can only exist because governments guarantee it. Without government it couldn't even exist. It isn't a matter of saying government either does or doesn't have money; it's a fact we all live our lives by a fictional unit of exchange. Nobody is 'taking' a real commodity; it's simply a methodology of creating affluence and poverty and then saying this is somehow just. The truth is the entire money system is a fraud. What we need is a world without a money system, where we cherish values beyond profit but for mutual benefit. By saying all government does is take, you are buying into some notion that a perfect society is for profit, minus all state, then government comes along and 'steals' from private enterprise. Okay, try living without those things the state currently provides. In fact you are putting the cart before the horse: profit requires the use of surplus value in a man made system to steal from the employee. Who is the thief here? Who gives business that 'money' in the first place? Businesses are composed of the people who do the work and make the profits in an electronic system of pushing numbers from pillar to post.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
19-06-2017, 05:22 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5074310]
Totally wrong. Money is a man made system based upon non existent value. Money only has worth because we believe it has worth; in truth 97% of all 'money' is merely electronic numbers on a screen. Furthermore, 'money' created by private baking institutions in the case of 97% of it, can only exist because governments guarantee it. Without government it couldn't even exist. It isn't a matter of saying government either does or doesn't have money; it's a fact we all live our lives by a fictional unit of exchange. Nobody is 'taking' a real commodity; it's simply a methodology of creating affluence and poverty and then saying this is somehow just. The truth is the entire money system is a fraud. What we need is a world without a money system, where we cherish values beyond profit but for mutual benefit. By saying all government does is take, you are buying into some notion that a perfect society is for profit, minus all state, then government comes along and 'steals' from private enterprise. Okay, try living without those things the state currently provides. In fact you are putting the cart before the horse: profit requires the use of surplus value in a man made system to steal from the employee. Who is the thief here? Who gives business that 'money' in the first place? Businesses are composed of the people who do the work and make the profits in an electronic system of pushing numbers from pillar to post.
Unfortunately H&A, we dont live in the pages of a textbook.
What you say might be right in theory, but practically its meaningless.
Money is as real as the nose on my face, and if the world was as simple as you suggest, why has no socialist system ever succeeded?
We have to live in the world as it is, not ad you would like it to be.
hibsbollah
19-06-2017, 05:28 AM
[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;5075002]
Unfortunately H&A, we dont live in the pages of a textbook.
What you say might be right in theory, but practically its meaningless.
Money is as real as the nose on my face, and if the world was as simple as you suggest, why has no socialist system ever succeeded?
We have to live in the world as it is, not ad you would like it to be.
Countless examples of successful socialist societies below
http://thepandarant.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/name-successful-socialist-country.html
But theres no correlation between the two clauses in your third sentence anyway, H&A could be wrong in his analysis and at the same time socialism could be thriving on this planet and vice versa.
This important thread is going off topic big style.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
19-06-2017, 05:51 AM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5075006]
Countless examples of successful socialist societies below
http://thepandarant.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/name-successful-socialist-country.html
But theres no correlation between the two clauses in your third sentence anyway, H&A could be wrong in his analysis and at the same time socialism could be thriving on this planet and vice versa.
This important thread is going off topic big style.
You are right in your last sentence, apologies for that.
lapsedhibee
19-06-2017, 09:42 AM
Totally wrong. Money is a man made system based upon non existent value. Money only has worth because we believe it has worth; in truth 97% of all 'money' is merely electronic numbers on a screen. Furthermore, 'money' created by private baking institutions in the case of 97% of it, can only exist because governments guarantee it. Without government it couldn't even exist. It isn't a matter of saying government either does or doesn't have money; it's a fact we all live our lives by a fictional unit of exchange. Nobody is 'taking' a real commodity; it's simply a methodology of creating affluence and poverty and then saying this is somehow just. The truth is the entire money system is a fraud. What we need is a world without a money system, where we cherish values beyond profit but for mutual benefit. By saying all government does is take, you are buying into some notion that a perfect society is for profit, minus all state, then government comes along and 'steals' from private enterprise. Okay, try living without those things the state currently provides. In fact you are putting the cart before the horse: profit requires the use of surplus value in a man made system to steal from the employee. Who is the thief here? Who gives business that 'money' in the first place? Businesses are composed of the people who do the work and make the profits in an electronic system of pushing numbers from pillar to post.
Not disagreeing with the gist of this, but doesn't money - numbers on a screen as well as folding paper with pictures of the Queen on it - also have a very real function as a facilitator of trade? Can you sensibly trade motor cars for coffee beans without money or something very like it?
Betty Boop
19-06-2017, 10:01 AM
79 people now died or missing. Why the drip feed of numbers ?
If it's not possible to count the dead then work it out from the number that survived. This woman did.
https://youtu.be/8ii2WV7Zcas
Betty Boop
19-06-2017, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE=RyeSloan;5074447]
Wealth creation for who?
If it's not possible to count the dead then work it out from the number that survived. This woman did.
https://youtu.be/8ii2WV7Zcas
Thanks for posting that Jack. Something doesn't add up here.
Hibernia&Alba
19-06-2017, 05:33 PM
Marr did a good job with Hammond. I can't stand that guy. Relentless deregulation, outsourcing, privatisation and cost cutting.
https://youtu.be/CKv42zVyPhI
Hibernia&Alba
19-06-2017, 05:52 PM
The despicable Gove just as bad
https://youtu.be/040YUJv0Rmc
Betty Boop
19-06-2017, 06:47 PM
Marr did a good job with Hammond. I can't stand that guy. Relentless deregulation, outsourcing, privatisation and cost cutting
[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;5075618]The despicable Gove just as bad
https://youtu.be/040YUJv0Rmc
Jeez its not just Maybot who has a lack of basic humanity, a hard watch, sickening.
hibsbollah
20-06-2017, 06:24 AM
Has anyone watched the House of Cards episode that predicts Grenfall Tower 25 years ago? (4min clip widely available on social media). Unbelievably prescient and creepy right down to the current reportéd number of dead.
frazeHFC
20-06-2017, 09:49 PM
Has anyone watched the House of Cards episode that predicts Grenfall Tower 25 years ago? (4min clip widely available on social media). Unbelievably prescient and creepy right down to the current reportéd number of dead.
Just watched that now. The fact it was also a fourth floor flat that caused the tragedy in that clip is creepy as hell!
ColinNish
20-06-2017, 09:53 PM
Watched the Panorama programme about it. They said firefighters said blaze was put out in the fridge fire.
Betty Boop
21-06-2017, 09:53 AM
Day off Rage protest organised by Movement for Justice.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-rage-protest-live-updates-10658367
Slavers
21-06-2017, 10:36 AM
Day off Rage protest organised by Movement for Justice.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-rage-protest-live-updates-10658367
I only hope this protest is not high jacked by far left groups like Antifa intent on causing nothing but trouble.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 10:55 AM
I only hope this protest is not high jacked by far left groups like Antifa intent on causing nothing but trouble.
I would imagine it will be in a lot of people's interests to exaggerate any 'trouble' to divert the publics attention away from the actual story, which is criminal neglect and corruption and a scandal that will probably rival Hillsborough.
Slavers
21-06-2017, 11:05 AM
I would imagine it will be in a lot of people's interests to exaggerate any 'trouble' to divert the publics attention away from the actual story, which is criminal neglect and corruption and a scandal that will probably rival Hillsborough.
I'm not so sure there are many cases of Antifa causing trouble but it rarely gets a mention in the press. This story is too large to be buried but riots on the streets will help no one especially our emergency services.
I agree though nothing should stop a full investigation on the criminality that has occurred.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 11:26 AM
I would imagine it will be in a lot of people's interests to exaggerate any 'trouble' to divert the publics attention away from the actual story, which is criminal neglect and corruption and a scandal that will probably rival Hillsborough.
Yeah, im sure the guy who was attacked by a mob outside the council offices because he was wrongly fingered as a tory counxillor was completely exaggerating.
If what you say is true, do you accept it is similarly in many people's interests to play-up the role of central govt in this tragedy?
Or does it only work one way?
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 11:38 AM
Yeah, im sure the guy who was attacked by a mob outside the council offices because he was wrongly fingered as a tory counxillor was completely exaggerating.
If what you say is true, do you accept it is similarly in many people's interests to play-up the role of central govt in this tragedy?
Or does it only work one way?
You've got to take each case on its evidence, haven't you? I'm not sure what you're saying makes any sense, except as a clumsy attempt to accuse me/someone of applying double standards. I never mentioned central government, but the evidence is clear that the building went up like that because of a massive **** up, not an Act of God. And people will undoubtedly be covering their tracks.
Yeah, im sure the guy who was attacked by a mob outside the council offices because he was wrongly fingered as a tory counxillor was completely exaggerating.
If what you say is true, do you accept it is similarly in many people's interests to play-up the role of central govt in this tragedy?
Or does it only work one way?
What role does central government play in passing, or not, adequate building regulations?
It seems central government are absolutely central in the cause of this tragedy.
Peevemor
21-06-2017, 11:50 AM
What role does central government play in passing, or not, adequate building regulations?
It seems central government are absolutely central in the cause of this tragedy.
The building regs are Acts of Parliament.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 11:52 AM
You've got to take each case on its evidence, haven't you? I'm not sure what you're saying makes any sense, except as a clumsy attempt to accuse me/someone of applying double standards. I never mentioned central government, but the evidence is clear that the building went up like that because of a massive **** up, not an Act of God. And people will undoubtedly be covering their tracks.
I agree wait for the evidence.
But the McDonnell endorsed 'day of rage' (rage, not protest, not demonstration) is being promoted by a group with an equally sinister name appear not to be.
But im sure the inevitable violence, destruction of property etc will all be 'the man's' fault and not those nice guys promoting 'rage', who want to to bring down the government amd zchieve 'justice' by 'any means necessary'.
I can only imagine how those effected by the fire must feel aboit these eejits hijacking their grief and suffering.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 12:25 PM
I agree wait for the evidence.
But the McDonnell endorsed 'day of rage' (rage, not protest, not demonstration) is being promoted by a group with an equally sinister name appear not to be.
But im sure the inevitable violence, destruction of property etc will all be 'the man's' fault and not those nice guys promoting 'rage', who want to to bring down the government amd zchieve 'justice' by 'any means necessary'.
I can only imagine how those effected by the fire must feel aboit these eejits hijacking their grief and suffering.
Im sure 'those affected by the fire' have other things to concern them at the moment, especially as the march hasn't actually happened yet, and all this looting rape and pillage that you're describing is actually SO FAR, only going on in your imagination? :rolleyes:
Mrs Bollah is working in London today and says it's extremely hot, and people are grumpy, so maybe that will help hurry along the inevitable Hampden style carnage.
stoneyburn hibs
21-06-2017, 12:31 PM
"Day of Rage" suggests that it's not going to be a peaceful protest. I hope I'm wrong because that will play into the hands of the government and their like minded media.
Im sure 'those affected by the fire' have other things to concern them at the moment, especially as the march hasn't actually happened yet, and all this looting rape and pillage that you're describing is actually SO FAR, only going on in your imagination? :rolleyes:
Mrs Bollah is working in London today and says it's extremely hot, and people are grumpy, so maybe that will help hurry along the inevitable Hampden style carnage.
I'm not grumpy!
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 12:41 PM
I'm not grumpy!
She is. Trust me. Despite the air-conditioning. 35 degrees she reckons.
Moulin Yarns
21-06-2017, 12:49 PM
At last, some better news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 12:54 PM
Im sure 'those affected by the fire' have other things to concern them at the moment, especially as the march hasn't actually happened yet, and all this looting rape and pillage that you're describing is actually SO FAR, only going on in your imagination? :rolleyes:
Mrs Bollah is working in London today and says it's extremely hot, and people are grumpy, so maybe that will help hurry along the inevitable Hampden style carnage.
Fair point, im jumping the gun a bit, it just seems sadly inevitable - its like when england fans start congrageting in a square in some foriegn city during a tournament, and its always 'heavy handed policing' that seems to be to blame then too.
Apparently a few residents not happy about the hijacking of the fire.
Slavers
21-06-2017, 01:21 PM
Fair point, im jumping the gun a bit, it just seems sadly inevitable - its like when england fans start congrageting in a square in some foriegn city during a tournament, and its always 'heavy handed policing' that seems to be to blame then too.
Apparently a few residents not happy about the hijacking of the fire.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/day-rage-live-grenfell-tower-protest-london-fire-queens-speech/
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 02:03 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/day-rage-live-grenfell-tower-protest-london-fire-queens-speech/
What a load of rubbish. It's the telegraph who are disrespecting The relatives and deceased here.
Lets think about this logically. There are literally hundreds of people who will have experienced or seen directly mum's and dad's, relatives, friends and neighbours burn to death, well over a thousand people will be directly affected and have lost friends they know, due to incompetence and corruption. If there is rioting or disturbances it will be driven by the residents themselves, not by these shadowy anarchists led my McDonnel as the telegraph would have you believe. And faced with the same trauma à lot of us would want a riot in the same position, I'd hazard a guess.
Also interesting that McDonnel is emphasising the protest must be peaceful, but yet again total manipulation by the press of what is being said by the Labour front bench.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 02:18 PM
What a load of rubbish. It's the telegraph who are disrespecting The relatives and deceased here.
Lets think about this logically. There are literally hundreds of people who will have experienced or seen directly mum's and dad's, relatives, friends and neighbours burn to death, well over a thousand people will be directly affected and have lost friends they know, due to incompetence and corruption. If there is rioting or disturbances it will be driven by the residents themselves, not by these shadowy anarchists led my McDonnel as the telegraph would have you believe. And faced with the same trauma à lot of us would want a riot in the same position, I'd hazard a guess.
Also interesting that McDonnel is emphasising the protest must be peaceful, but yet again total manipulation by the press of what is being said by the Labour front bench.
The story i read was in the guardian. And it didnt twist what mcdonnell said.
But it also made clear the whole thing is being driven by political groups who are left wing and permanantly outraged.
And apparently lots of residents are not happy with these groups, hijacking their tragedy to try and bring down the govt (their words), which its worth noting, was democratically elected.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 02:26 PM
The story i read was in the guardian. And it didnt twist what mcdonnell said.
But it also made clear the whole thing is being driven by political groups who are left wing and permanantly outraged.
And apparently lots of residents are not happy with these groups, hijacking their tragedy to try and bring down the govt (their words), which its worth noting, was democratically elected.
Like I say, that sounds like bull crap to me. I seriously doubt the families of the deceased are anything else but95% behind the protest. Who else do they have taking their side? Not the press, who demonise their communities, or their council who ignore their repeated pleas to do something about the risk of fire or their PM who doesn't even bother her arse to meet them face to face.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 02:46 PM
Like I say, that sounds like bull crap to me. I seriously doubt the families of the deceased are anything else but95% behind the protest. Who else do they have taking their side? Not the press, who demonise their communities, or their council who ignore their repeated pleas to do something about the risk of fire or their PM who doesn't even bother her arse to meet them face to face.
Ok, well ill believe the resident i read quoted in the paper, the one ive just heard on the radio, and the charity that has been helping the displaced residents, and you can believe the socialist workers or whoever is organising the 'day of outrage'.
Meanhwile the govt has been buying flats for residents.
Im sure you will be effusive in your praise for that move, because the welfate of the residents is your main priority, and not just using this to have a pop at 'the tories'.
easty
21-06-2017, 02:52 PM
Meanhwile the govt has been buying flats for residents.
.
So what, that's their ****ing job...you want them to get what, praise? For finding somewhere to live for people who's homes have been burnt down? Where can I sign the thank you Tory Government card? Is there a collection to get them a gift?
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 02:58 PM
So what, that's their ****ing job...you want them to get what, praise? For finding somewhere to live for people who's homes have been burnt down? Where can I sign the thank you Tory Government card? Is there a collection to get them a gift?
Its the govts job to buy flats for people? I think you need to check that mate.
No, i just thought that as people's first concern is the residents, people might be pleased at this.
Of course, if your main concern is tory-bashing, then i can understand your reaction.
easty
21-06-2017, 03:17 PM
Its the govts job to buy flats for people? I think you need to check that mate.
No, i just thought that as people's first concern is the residents, people might be pleased at this.
Of course, if your main concern is tory-bashing, then i can understand your reaction.
It's the governments job to look after it's people, so aye, buying flats to home people who are currently homeless after the fire is their job.
lapsedhibee
21-06-2017, 03:54 PM
There are literally hundreds of people who will have experienced or seen directly mum's and dad's, relatives, friends and neighbours burn to death, well over a thousand people will be directly affected and have lost friends they know, due to incompetence and corruption.
Apologies if I've missed this in the media covfefe or earlier in this thread, but what's the nature of the corruption to which you refer?
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 04:01 PM
Ok, well ill believe the resident i read quoted in the paper, the one ive just heard on the radio, and the charity that has been helping the displaced residents, and you can believe the socialist workers or whoever is organising the 'day of outrage'.
Meanhwile the govt has been buying flats for residents.
Im sure you will be effusive in your praise for that move, because the welfate of the residents is your main priority, and not just using this to have a pop at 'the tories'.
Its nothing to do with socialists or tories or any of that. That building catching fire like that was caused by an of abuse of power. You should be looking to uncover that abuse whatever political clan you align yourself with. The march is a sideshow. I dont even know why we're talking about it.
'Meanwhile the govt has been buying flats for residents' :faf: Are you seriously of the view that our Prime Ministers response to this disaster has been successful? Even if you overlook the human failing in having a lack of empathy or common decency of ignoring the survivors, it wasn't even smart politics. Every statesman anywhere in the world knows at any disaster scene you get down there, meet the people face to face, show Govt by consent and display the human touch. She scuttled off and left the scene free for Corbyn to hug everybody and probably solidify his popularity among his core vote.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 04:16 PM
Apologies if I've missed this in the media covfefe or earlier in this thread, but what's the nature of the corruption to which you refer?
Probably not a term that could stand up in court, I admit:wink: Although obviously more may come out. For years Kensington and Chelsea borough council cut spending on housing, schools, transferring huge underspends in its revenue budgets and then transferring the sums into capital reserves. Then prior to election time the council sends a letter to all council tax payers explaining a £100 'rebate' would be given to each of them due to the wonderful prudence and careful management of resources ie-cutting everything everywhere. Including, i imagine, sprinkler systems. Austerity in action. I havent got a link but there is an excellent letter from an ex-tory voting resident in the Guardian the other day called 'my local tax rebate is blood money' which explains the system pretty well.
lord bunberry
21-06-2017, 04:19 PM
Its the govts job to buy flats for people? I think you need to check that mate.
No, i just thought that as people's first concern is the residents, people might be pleased at this.
Of course, if your main concern is tory-bashing, then i can understand your reaction.
Maybe if government hadn't allowed most of the housing stock to be sold off without replacing it, we might not need them to buy houses
Just Alf
21-06-2017, 04:25 PM
Probably not a term that could stand up in court, I admit:wink: Although obviously more may come out. For years Kensington and Chelsea borough council cut spending on housing, schools, transferring huge underspends in its revenue budgets and then transferring the sums into capital reserves. Then prior to election time the council sends a letter to all council tax payers explaining a £100 'rebate' would be given to each of them due to the wonderful prudence and careful management of resources ie-cutting everything everywhere. Including, i imagine, sprinkler systems. Austerity in action. I havent got a link but there is an excellent letter from an ex-tory voting resident in the Guardian the other day called 'my local tax rebate is blood money' which explains the system pretty well.
Would love to hear them answer the direct question... "if you had not given any rebates out, how much money would you have had available for fitting sprinkler systems and similar?"
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 06:32 PM
Its nothing to do with socialists or tories or any of that. That building catching fire like that was caused by an of abuse of power. You should be looking to uncover that abuse whatever political clan you align yourself with. The march is a sideshow. I dont even know why we're talking about it.
'Meanwhile the govt has been buying flats for residents' :faf: Are you seriously of the view that our Prime Ministers response to this disaster has been successful? Even if you overlook the human failing in having a lack of empathy or common decency of ignoring the survivors, it wasn't even smart politics. Every statesman anywhere in the world knows at any disaster scene you get down there, meet the people face to face, show Govt by consent and display the human touch. She scuttled off and left the scene free for Corbyn to hug everybody and probably solidify his popularity among his core vote.
We are talking about it because the march is being held in the residents' name.
Happy to hold my hands up though, seems to have been peaceful, so i admit i jumped the gun there.
No im not of that view, thats you putting words in my mouth. But i wouldnt imagine buying 60 flats in kensington is neither a quick or cheap process.
Im happy to criticise the govt - of any persuasion - when they deserve it, and likewise the give credit where it is due.
Too many are too blinkered by tribal hatred to do that. Shpuld May habe met the residents? Absolutely. Is buyins houses for the victims a good move by May - absolutely.
And on the abuse of power bit, i agree wholeheartedly. There are three separate reviews / inveatigations ongoing, im happy to wait for them to conclude before i form an opinion.
Lots of people on here though apparently already know more than theae three investigations already.
And any objective observer can see clearly that many people are trying to make political capital put of this. To say they arent is conpletely disingenuous.
Its an energised left, flush with new recruits and righteous indignation, needing something to focus their emergy on amd bitter that despite facing one of the most ineffective PMs, who delivered the worst campsign in living memory, and who called an election at a time an opposition should be strong, still couldnt get within 60 seats of those loathesome, malign, evil tories who only care about 1% of the people.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 06:34 PM
Maybe if government hadn't allowed most of the housing stock to be sold off without replacing it, we might not need them to buy houses
How would that habe helped? They were in social housing, and it burned down!
And anyway, if not having enough houses is the problem, surely buying more is a good thing?
lord bunberry
21-06-2017, 06:44 PM
How would that habe helped? They were in social housing, and it burned down!
And anyway, if not having enough houses is the problem, surely buying more is a good thing?
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying it was a bad idea to sell off all the social housing in the first place. Right to buy still exists in England I believe.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 06:46 PM
How would that habe helped? They were in social housing, and it burned down!
And anyway, if not having enough houses is the problem, surely buying more is a good thing?
...Because if our council housing stock hadn't been decimated over the last thirty years, the Government could have used their own (ie-OUR own) properties to house the families. (Just one of many negative effects of selling off our housing stock).
According to tonights Standard, the City of London Corporation is providing 68 'luxury' flats to the families at a cost of £10million, which was the cost price 'generously provided by the developer'. Which saves the Government doing it.
...Because if our council housing stock hadn't been decimated over the last thirty years, the Government could have used their own (ie-OUR own) properties to house the families. (Just one of many negative effects of selling off our housing stock).
According to tonights Standard, the City of London Corporation is providing 68 'luxury' flats to the families at a cost of £10million, which was the cost price 'generously provided by the developer'. Which saves the Government doing it.
Tony Pidgeley will have done alright out of the deal.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 06:51 PM
We are talking about it because the march is being held in the residents' name.
Happy to hold my hands up though, seems to have been peaceful, so i admit i jumped the gun there.
No im not of that view, thats you putting words in my mouth. But i wouldnt imagine buying 60 flats in kensington is neither a quick or cheap process.
Im happy to criticise the govt - of any persuasion - when they deserve it, and likewise the give credit where it is due.
Too many are too blinkered by tribal hatred to do that. Shpuld May habe met the residents? Absolutely. Is buyins houses for the victims a good move by May - absolutely.
And on the abuse of power bit, i agree wholeheartedly. There are three separate reviews / inveatigations ongoing, im happy to wait for them to conclude before i form an opinion.
Lots of people on here though apparently already know more than theae three investigations already.
And any objective observer can see clearly that many people are trying to make political capital put of this. To say they arent is conpletely disingenuous.
Its an energised left, flush with new recruits and righteous indignation, needing something to focus their emergy on amd bitter that despite facing one of the most ineffective PMs, who delivered the worst campsign in living memory, and who called an election at a time an opposition should be strong, still couldnt get within 60 seats of those loathesome, malign, evil tories who only care about 1% of the people.
I am delighted people are making political capital out of this. So they should. It is a political issue.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 06:54 PM
Tony Pidgeley will have done alright out of the deal.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/sixtyeight-flats-in-2bn-luxury-block-to-be-given-to-families-whose-lives-were-devastated-in-grenfell-a3569876.html
Excellent PR for him, whatever the deal actually was.
She is. Trust me. Despite the air-conditioning. 35 degrees she reckons.
That sounds about right.
ronaldo7
21-06-2017, 07:41 PM
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying it was a bad idea to sell off all the social housing in the first place. Right to buy still exists in England I believe.
Scrapped in Scotland in July 2016. Not sure the Tories were too happy about it though.:aok:
Moulin Yarns
21-06-2017, 09:17 PM
I believe the properties are social housing in a mixed development not 'bought' by the government but rented. And they aren't finished being built.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 09:27 PM
...Because if our council housing stock hadn't been decimated over the last thirty years, the Government could have used their own (ie-OUR own) properties to house the families. (Just one of many negative effects of selling off our housing stock).
According to tonights Standard, the City of London Corporation is providing 68 'luxury' flats to the families at a cost of £10million, which was the cost price 'generously provided by the developer'. Which saves the Government doing it.
But other people would have already been living in them surely?
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
21-06-2017, 09:29 PM
I am delighted people are making political capital out of this. So they should. It is a political issue.
Fair enough if you think that, at last some honesty.
hibsbollah
21-06-2017, 10:24 PM
Fair enough if you think that, at last some honesty.
:confused: You baffle me. #1 If this issue isn't political and something to get political about then nothing is. And #2 I dont mind if you disagree with my views but please explain what you find 'dishonest' in them.
lord bunberry
21-06-2017, 11:12 PM
Scrapped in Scotland in July 2016. Not sure the Tories were too happy about it though.:aok:
Ruth probably didn't notice, she was too busy shouting her opposition to another referendum.
cabbageandribs1875
22-06-2017, 12:22 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40362317
The chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea council has resigned amid criticism over the borough's response to the Grenfell Tower fire.
Nicholas Holgate said Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid had asked for him to go, but Mr Javid has not commented.
Mr Holgate said last week's fire in North Kensington, in which at least 79 people died, was "heart-breaking" but his presence would be a "distraction".
now as much as i have a little dislike for theresa may...i'm 100% sure that's the very reason she herself didn't appear amongst the crowds last week
cabbageandribs1875
22-06-2017, 12:44 AM
what happened with the low turnout(500) at this 'day of rage' protest march, where did everyone go ?
Mr McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, last week called for one million people to take to the streets to protest against Mrs May.
He told trade unionists: "What we need now is the TUC [Trade Union Congress] mobilised, every union mobilised, get out on the streets.
"Just think if the TUC put out that call – that we want a million on the streets of London in two weeks' time."
:confused: oh my goodness
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
22-06-2017, 05:41 AM
:confused: You baffle me. #1 If this issue isn't political and something to get political about then nothing is. And #2 I dont mind if you disagree with my views but please explain what you find 'dishonest' in them.
I said above its been hijacked for political means. You then replied it was notjing to do with left or right, tories or labour etc, which i took as you saying its not been hijacked for political means.
Apologies if i misunderstood you.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
22-06-2017, 05:44 AM
what happened with the low turnout(500) at this 'day of rage' protest march, where did everyone go ?
Mr McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, last week called for one million people to take to the streets to protest against Mrs May.
He told trade unionists: "What we need now is the TUC [Trade Union Congress] mobilised, every union mobilised, get out on the streets.
"Just think if the TUC put out that call – that we want a million on the streets of London in two weeks' time."
:confused: oh my goodness
Yeah, a slightly underwhelming response.
To be fair to corbyn though, he is doing a good job of sitting above all of this. But his attack dog is a loathesome character. I had a labour MSP tell me about how nasty a piece of work he is.
easty
22-06-2017, 06:50 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40362317
The chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea council has resigned amid criticism over the borough's response to the Grenfell Tower fire.
Nicholas Holgate said Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid had asked for him to go, but Mr Javid has not commented.
Mr Holgate said last week's fire in North Kensington, in which at least 79 people died, was "heart-breaking" but his presence would be a "distraction".
now as much as i have a little dislike for theresa may...i'm 100% sure that's the very reason she herself didn't appear amongst the crowds last week
Nah, I don't agree at all with your last point. She didn't meet the residents because she's useless under pressure, and she knows it. She knew turning up there, forcing a smile and repeating "strong and stable" and "coalition of chaos" wouldn't have worked, she'd have been flapping.
Hibrandenburg
22-06-2017, 07:43 AM
Yeah, a slightly underwhelming response.
To be fair to corbyn though, he is doing a good job of sitting above all of this. But his attack dog is a loathesome character. I had a labour MSP tell me about how nasty a piece of work he is.
So when the protest is announced the thought of thousands joining the protest is a disgusting hijacking of the incident for political ends and when only 500 turn up it's underwhelming. They can't win with you eh?
Hibernia&Alba
22-06-2017, 08:20 AM
On this news this morning, it says a number of the victims could have died as a result of hydrogen cyanide gas from the burning insulation behind the cladding. Apparently there are NO safety requirements in relation to the insulation foam emitting such gases when burned :confused:, which seems incredible. The whole situation is very disturbing.
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
22-06-2017, 08:48 AM
So when the protest is announced the thought of thousands joining the protest is a disgusting hijacking of the incident for political ends and when only 500 turn up it's underwhelming. They can't win with you eh?
Eh?
I do think it is a hijacking, and so do many residents apparently.
Apparently so do the 999,500 who were missing from the million-strong march.
I dont really understand your point, i dont see how the two points are mutually exclusive?
McDonnell got an underwhelming response to his / the march's shameful attempt to use the fire as a reason to 'bring down the government'.
easty
22-06-2017, 08:51 AM
Eh?
I do think it is a hijacking, and so do many residents apparently.
Apparently so do the 999,500 who were missing from the million-strong march.
I dont really understand your point, i dont see how the two points are mutually exclusive?
McDonnell got an underwhelming response to his / the march's shameful attempt to use the fire as a reason to 'bring down the government'.
Apparently apparently
SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
22-06-2017, 08:53 AM
Apparently apparently
😊
hibsbollah
22-06-2017, 10:05 AM
Eh?
I do think it is a hijacking, and so do many residents apparently.
Apparently so do the 999,500 who were missing from the million-strong march.
I dont really understand your point, i dont see how the two points are mutually exclusive?
McDonnell got an underwhelming response to his / the march's shameful attempt to use the fire as a reason to 'bring down the government'.
Its really simple. You got yourself all foamed up about the prospect of violent disorder that was to be blamed on the Shadow Chancellor because he 'apparently' was encouraging violent disorder. Except there is no evidence that he said anything like that. But the violence didn't happen anyway. So that's that sorted.
Meanwhile, back to reality, this is a thread about how probably upwards of 100 people got burned to death in their homes, and you are accusing other people of hijacking the disaster for political ends. :rolleyes:
Betty Boop
22-06-2017, 10:14 AM
Theresa May admits that the cladding used on Grenfell and other tower blocks across the country is combustible.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-theresa-may-combustible-cladding-testing-apartment-buildings-high-rises-a7802191.html
hibsbollah
22-06-2017, 10:21 AM
Theresa May admits that the cladding used on Grenfell and other tower blocks across the country is combustible.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-theresa-may-combustible-cladding-testing-apartment-buildings-high-rises-a7802191.html
Shh. This story should be all about how John McDonnel is a bad man. To actually talk about the cause of the fire is 'hijacking the deaths for political ends':tsk tsk:
Betty Boop
22-06-2017, 10:24 AM
Shh. This story should be all about how John McDonnel is a bad man. To actually talk about the cause of the fire is 'hijacking the deaths for political ends':tsk tsk:
Jezza's attack dog. :greengrin
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