The Leaders Debate

[High-On-Hibs]

Which international terrorists are saudi arabia giving british weapons too?

Seriously? Do you just act ill informed to be annoying? Because it works. Good job!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Seriously? Do you just act ill informed to be annoying? Because it works. Good job!

I genuinely, 100% do not know which terrorists saudi is fencing british weapons to - will you tell me, or just insult me because im not as well informed as you?

[marinello59]

Seriously? Do you just act ill informed to be annoying? Because it works. Good job!

You could list them. Just an idea.

[johnbc70]

Simply that it's not relevant to the General Election since it's a devolved matter. You wouldn't get the BBC asking Jeremy Corbyn why the bins aren't collected more frequently in Islington.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So Education is not relevant in a general election debate? Ok.

[ronaldo7]

Saudi links.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/01/whos-funding-britains-terrorists-sensitive-home-office-report-may-never-be-published/

[Pete]

I hope people watching the BBC coverage saw the way Boris Johnston was acting and realise what a nasty, arrogant bunch of toffs they really are. It was also a nice balanced interview with audience members afterwards...one UKIP supporter, a Tory and two who got stuck into Corbyn.

May was pressed on real issues by real people while Corbyn sounded like he was being asked questions about nuclear deterrents by people who probably think that the world would be a better place if we had an empire. I couldn't make head nor tail of the comment he chose not to reply to and I doubt he could either.

If you were to give me a choice between being strong on social care or pressing the red button I know where I'd rather be "weak". I hope there are enough sensible people out there who see things the same way but I'm depressingly unsure.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Saudi links.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/01/whos-funding-britains-terrorists-sensitive-home-office-report-may-never-be-published/

Cheers Ronaldo.

I get the links to wahhabism, but i didnt see anything there about british weapons being used by terrorists after the saudis passed them on, which HoH said?

[lord bunberry]

I hope people watching the BBC coverage saw the way Boris Johnston was acting and realise what a nasty, arrogant bunch of toffs they really are. It was also a nice balanced interview with audience members afterwards...one UKIP supporter, a Tory and two who got stuck into Corbyn.

May was pressed on real issues by real people while Corbyn sounded like he was being asked questions about nuclear deterrents by people who probably think that the world would be a better place if we had an empire. I couldn't make head nor tail of the comment he chose not to reply to and I doubt he could either.

If you were to give me a choice between being strong on social care or pressing the red button I know where I'd rather be "weak". I hope there are enough sensible people out there who see things the same way but I'm depressingly unsure.
:top marksI watched that stuff with Boris as well. To think some people wanted him as prime minister.

[Pete]

:top marksI watched that stuff with Boris as well. To think some people wanted him as prime minister.

I hope that Geordie punches **** out of him when the cameras are away.
:-D

[ronaldo7]

Cheers Ronaldo.

I get the links to wahhabism, but i didnt see anything there about british weapons being used by terrorists after the saudis passed them on, which HoH said?

From within the links. I think it's been well known for some time that the Saudi's are and have been funding terrorist groups. You only have to join the dots to see where our weapons are going.

"For instance, a Wikileaks cable clearly quotes then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying “donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.” She continues: “More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups.” And it’s not just the Saudis: Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are also implicated in the memo. Other cables released by Wikileaks outline how Saudi front companies are also used to fund terrorism abroad."

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

From within the links. I think it's been well known for some time that the Saudi's are and have been funding terrorist groups. You only have to join the dots to see where our weapons are going.

"For instance, a Wikileaks cable clearly quotes then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying “donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.” She continues: “More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups.” And it’s not just the Saudis: Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are also implicated in the memo. Other cables released by Wikileaks outline how Saudi front companies are also used to fund terrorism abroad."

We'll just leave that, i think there are a lot of dots to be joined between the UK selling typhoon jets to the saudi airforce, and elements within the saudi ruling class funding terrorism.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Guardian verdict on leaders debate was pretty fair. Corbyn marginally on top, assuming people care more about public services than nukes.

Corbyn continied his recent improvement, may was more robust and animated than previously in this campaign.

Pretty spot on from what i saw.

[johnbc70]

Audience reaction to Jeremy Corbyn

Audience - How dare you not condemn IRA killers!

Audience - How dare you not kill millions with nuclear weapons!

[Mantis Toboggan]

Audience reaction to Jeremy Corbyn

Audience - How dare you not condemn IRA killers!

Audience - How dare you not kill millions with nuclear weapons!

How the **** the IRA has become an issue is quite incredible. Tories really are getting desperate

[Mantis Toboggan]

We'll just leave that, i think there are a lot of dots to be joined between the UK selling typhoon jets to the saudi airforce, and elements within the saudi ruling class funding terrorism.

Have you seen the semi documentary Bitter lake?
Largely a rinse of wahabism

[lord bunberry]

How the **** the IRA has become an issue is quite incredible. Tories really are getting desperate
You know politics is in a bad state when all this **** is being dragged up again. Fwiw I agree with Corbyn, no modern day conflict has been resolved without the unpalatable decision to talk to the other side.

[blaikie]

How the **** the IRA has become an issue is quite incredible. Tories really are getting desperate

I don't think the whole IRA link smear campaign by the Tories is working the way they would like,

If he was one of the few links to Sinn Fien MPs and active republican movement members, I'm sure he would have been in close communication with British intelligence services also. He played his part in bringing peace to the NI situation and the Conservaties are playing an extremely dangerous game bringing this into the election campaign, tensions over a reunification referendum are already at boiling point, add in the DUP losing seats in Stormont and stirring up things trying to stay relevant.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I don't think the whole IRA link smear campaign by the Tories is working the way they would like,

If he was one of the few links to Sinn Fien MPs and active republican movement members, I'm sure he would have been in close communication with British intelligence services also. He played his part in bringing peace to the NI situation and the Conservaties are playing an extremely dangerous game bringing this into the election campaign, tensions over a reunification referendum are already at boiling point, add in the DUP losing seats in Stormont and stirring up things trying to stay relevant.

They certainly are. But then they don't give a **** about Ireland.

[grunt]

So Education is not relevant in a general election debate? Ok.

Well when you put it like that you obviously have a valid point. The point I was trying - and failing - to convey is that in Scotland education is under the control of the Scottish Parliament, and this is not an election for the Scottish Parliament. Happy to concede I was wrong here, especially as it seems to be in the SNP manifesto.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ballengeich]

You know politics is in a bad state when all this **** is being dragged up again. Fwiw I agree with Corbyn, no modern day conflict has been resolved without the unpalatable decision to talk to the other side.

It's not exactly a great insight on Corbyn's part. Every state employs a large number of people to talk behind the scenes to people they don't agree with. They're called diplomats.

[lucky]

The Tories and the establishment are trying every dirty trick in the book to stop Corbyn. We appear to be living in an episode of the House of Cards. If people want change they have get out and vote, preferably Labour but anyone bar the Tories

[heretoday]

The IRA mud-slinging is a desperate throw by the Tories to appeal to the Brexiteer types who managed to drag themselves out of the pub/bookies long enough to vote against Johnny Foreigner last year.

[Colr]

Boris "Lying" Johnson gradully reaching peak ****er.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-40140992/boris-johnson-and-labour-s-ian-lavery-have-heated-debate

[ronaldo7]

Boris "Lying" Johnson gradully reaching peak ****er.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-40140992/boris-johnson-and-labour-s-ian-lavery-have-heated-debate

They're clearly rattled. This is the second time Boris has been caught trying to wind up a Labour spokesman when doing a piece to camera.

[Glory Lurker]

Boris Johnson. And his ilk. It makes me despair that they have involvement in how Scotland is run.

[ronaldo7]

The Tories and the establishment are trying every dirty trick in the book to stop Corbyn. We appear to be living in an episode of the House of Cards. If people want change they have get out and vote, preferably Labour but anyone bar the Tories

In fairness, the Labour party themselves tried that. Glad to see he came through it unscathed.:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Boris Johnson. And his ilk. It makes me despair that they have involvement in how Scotland is run.

It makes me despair that any working class person could believe that anyone like Johnson could have their welfare at heart.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Take a look at @ToryFibs's Tweet: https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/870926383203135489?s=09

Made me laugh

[ronaldo7]

We'll just leave that, i think there are a lot of dots to be joined between the UK selling typhoon jets to the saudi airforce, and elements within the saudi ruling class funding terrorism.

Not really many dots to join. It would keep you informed.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not really many dots to join. It would keep you informed.:wink:

Its ok, i have Hibs.net resident SNP liaison officer to keep me informed about what is right and what is wrong 😉

[High-On-Hibs]

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18893299_230920234070050_8652311102520632987_n.jpg ?oh=b402b0632a9fb931aa97f2d93ce3bcfd&oe=59B31929

[ronaldo7]

Its ok, i have Hibs.net resident SNP liaison officer to keep me informed about what is right and what is wrong ��

Take a look at this link from, John Pilger, bud. He gives a clear perspective of how we got into this **** in the first place and where it's going next.

https://t.co/llxbELEtrF

[Betty Boop]

Take a look at this link from, John Pilger, bud. He gives a clear perspective of how we got into this **** in the first place and where it's going next.

https://t.co/llxbELEtrF






Yip another fine mess we got ourselves involved in. I'll never forget the words of Clinton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y

[Hibbyradge]

It makes me despair that any working class person could believe that anyone like Johnson could have their welfare at heart.

Exactly.

[stoneyburn hibs]

There's not many unionists in the BBC audience tonight....jeezo.

[weecounty hibby]

There's not many unionists in the BBC audience tonight....jeezo.

Doesn't seem truly representative of the Scottish electorate to me. Maybe just being paranoid as I'm sure some others will be along to tell me

[weecounty hibby]

SNP politicians gets better receptions and more support in England on these programmes than they do in their own country

[stoneyburn hibs]

Doesn't seem truly representative of the Scottish electorate to me. Maybe just being paranoid as I'm sure some others will be along to tell me

Stitch up. Quite clear to see.

[Glory Lurker]

In fairness, it wouldn't have any credibility if Nicola hadn't got tough questions. She dealt with them fine, too.

[The Harp Awakes]

Stitch up. Quite clear to see.

When you watch these debates you really have to keep reminding yourself that this is a General Election. The presenters continually allow the debate to be dominated by questions on devolved issues, the Scottish Government's record, etc. If it was a Holyrood election it would be perfectly correct, but this is a Westminster election. All guns on the SNP it seems even though they're an opposition party in this election.

[fulshie]

The IRA mud-slinging is a desperate throw by the Tories to appeal to the Brexiteer types who managed to drag themselves out of the pub/bookies long enough to vote against Johnny Foreigner last year.Totally agree :agree:. Its also worth noting that there is a tory councillor in Croydon that was a member of the IRA. her name is Maria Gatland and she wrote a book called To take arms. It was all about her time in the IRA and she wrote among other things that she wanted British soldiers to be killed whilst serving in N. Ireland. She was suspended from the council committee but kept her day to day to day as a tory councillor. Check it out.

[heretoday]

In fairness, it wouldn't have any credibility if Nicola hadn't got tough questions. She dealt with them fine, too.

She got a rougher ride from Bernard Ponsonby on STV later on. But I was probably the only person in the country watching.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

When you watch these debates you really have to keep reminding yourself that this is a General Election. The presenters continually allow the debate to be dominated by questions on devolved issues, the Scottish Government's record, etc. If it was a Holyrood election it would be perfectly correct, but this is a Westminster election. All guns on the SNP it seems even though they're an opposition party in this election.

Heavy lies the crown...

[Geo_1875]

Heavy lies the crown...

And so it should but Nicola Sturgeon doesn't wear the crown, as far as this election goes.

[snooky]

It makes me despair that any working class person could believe that anyone like Johnson could have their welfare at heart.

While I fully accept some people don't want to break away from the UK, I can't for the life of me understand why they would believe that May and her ilk have more concerns for their welfare than Sturgeon & her followers.
The old adage says you get the government you deserve. We really are at the bottom of the barrel nowadays (in terms of UK politics).

[marinello59]

And so it should but Nicola Sturgeon doesn't wear the crown, as far as this election goes.

When we wake up on Friday morning to the news that most of us are still living in an SNP held consituency Nicola Sturgeon will declare the SNP the winners of the election in Scotland. We know that because she has said that will be the case. So as far as Scotland is concerned she has effectively said she does have the crown.

[marinello59]

When you watch these debates you really have to keep reminding yourself that this is a General Election. The presenters continually allow the debate to be dominated by questions on devolved issues, the Scottish Government's record, etc. If it was a Holyrood election it would be perfectly correct, but this is a Westminster election. All guns on the SNP it seems even though they're an opposition party in this election.

The SNP mentions those issues in their campaign literature for this election as a reason to vote for them. So surely they have invited scrutiny or should that just be allowed to go unchallenged?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And so it should but Nicola Sturgeon doesn't wear the crown, as far as this election goes.

You cant have it both ways though. Why is she fronting the campaign then? Why is the SNP manifesto full of devolved issues? The Nicolopter?

She is hardly being dragged into fhe debate as a reluctant participant is she?

Also you habe to accept that devolution has left a ragged edge in scottish politics. If we stuck rigidly to clearly defined reserved / devolved powers, then Nicola Sturgeon wouldnt be saying anything on the constitution or on brexit, as neither sit within her competency, technically.

[marinello59]

While I fully accept some people don't want to break away from the UK, I can't for the life of me understand why they would believe that May and her ilk have more concerns for their welfare than Sturgeon & her followers.
The old adage says you get the government you deserve. We really are at the bottom of the barrel nowadays (in terms of UK politics).

I don't think anybody does believe that, it's just that those issues are not getting discussed in Scotland nearly enough because the constitutional issue is dominating. You can blame all of the parties to some extent for that.

[High-On-Hibs]

You cant have it both ways though. Why is she fronting the campaign then? Why is the SNP manifesto full of devolved issues? The Nicolopter?

She is hardly being dragged into fhe debate as a reluctant participant is she?

Also you habe to accept that devolution has left a ragged edge in scottish politics. If we stuck rigidly to clearly defined reserved / devolved powers, then Nicola Sturgeon wouldnt be saying anything on the constitution or on brexit, as neither sit within her competency, technically.

Why shouldn't their manifesto be full of devolved issues, considering the mainstream media has shaped every general election debate involving the SNP around devolved issues?

[JeMeSouviens]

You cant have it both ways though. Why is she fronting the campaign then? Why is the SNP manifesto full of devolved issues? The Nicolopter?

She is hardly being dragged into fhe debate as a reluctant participant is she?

Also you habe to accept that devolution has left a ragged edge in scottish politics. If we stuck rigidly to clearly defined reserved / devolved powers, then Nicola Sturgeon wouldnt be saying anything on the constitution or on brexit, as neither sit within her competency, technically.

I've only read summaries of it rather than the manifesto itself - but I I think you're being misleading here. It contains only things that SNP MPs can vote on at Westminster. So I can't pick it up and say x, y and z will be done but I can pick it up and say my SNP MP will vote in favour of or against x, y and z.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I've only read summaries of it rather than the manifesto itself - but I I think you're being misleading here. It contains only things that SNP MPs can vote on at Westminster. So I can't pick it up and say x, y and z will be done but I can pick it up and say my SNP MP will vote in favour of or against x, y and z.

I dont think im being misleading -

P3 indy ref
P5 -
SNP record in (Scottish) NHS, inc prescription charges
Investing in education
Childcare
Council tax bills
Personal care for elderly
House building
Youth unemployment
Police and crime
No bedroom tax

All on p5

Then in various subject-specific chapters, it conflates the work of the Scottish Govt with what snp MPs will do / have done.

I dont think im being misleading at all.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why shouldn't their manifesto be full of devolved issues, considering the mainstream media has shaped every general election debate involving the SNP around devolved issues?

Im not arguing that is shouldnt.

All im saying is you cant bring issues into the discourse, only to complain about them being in the discourse when difficult questions are asked.

Whether they should or shouldn't be an issue for this election is moot, they are.

I dont know how much you know about how campaigns operate, but the parties generally set the agenda to the media, not the other way around (with obvious exceptions when a particular iasue emerges etc).

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont think im being misleading -

P3 indy ref
P5 -
SNP record in (Scottish) NHS, inc prescription charges
Investing in education
Childcare
Council tax bills
Personal care for elderly
House building
Youth unemployment
Police and crime
No bedroom tax

All on p5

Then in various subject-specific chapters, it conflates the work of the Scottish Govt with what snp MPs will do / have done.

I dont think im being misleading at all.

Just had a look, P5 is clearly a summary of SNP record at Holyrood before moving on to next section "Key pledges".

To be fair, some of the pledges do mix Holyrood/Westminster, but it is clear which is which as they begin either "SNP MPs will vote ..." or "The Scottish government will ...".

Anyway, I don't even know why I'm getting involved: the SNP's record at Holyrood is clearly an important factor in deciding whether to vote for them in any election.

[marinello59]

Just had a look, P5 is clearly a summary of SNP record at Holyrood before moving on to next section "Key pledges".

To be fair, some of the pledges do mix Holyrood/Westminster, but it is clear which is which as they begin either "SNP MPs will vote ..." or "The Scottish government will ...".

Anyway, I don't even know why I'm getting involved: the SNP's record at Holyrood is clearly an important factor in deciding whether to vote for them in any election.

Spot on.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Just had a look, P5 is clearly a summary of SNP record at Holyrood before moving on to next section "Key pledges".

To be fair, some of the pledges do mix Holyrood/Westminster, but it is clear which is which as they begin either "SNP MPs will vote ..." or "The Scottish government will ...".

Anyway, I don't even know why I'm getting involved: the SNP's record at Holyrood is clearly an important factor in deciding whether to vote for them in any election.

I think we are agreeing! There is lots of SG stuff in there.

It seems that as the SNP are in power for a long time, theu start to suffer attrition (as all govts do) their record at holyrood is becoming less of an asset and more of a hindrance - and some snp supporters on here seem to resent that being pointed out, or the FM (why is she leading the campaign, she isnt even standing if devolved issues should be ignored?) being taken to task on some emerging potential policy failures.

[Moulin Yarns]

The BBC analysis of the SNP Manifesto

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40091999



And the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Manifesto

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39977611

Note the bits in italics

SNP FOUR times on devolved issues, Ruth SEVEN times on devolved issues

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The BBC analysis of the SNP Manifesto

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40091999



And the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Manifesto

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39977611

Note the bits in italics

SNP FOUR times on devolved issues, Ruth SEVEN times on devolved issues

So the SNP talk about devolved areas in their manifesto then, thanks for clarifying. And it is a helluva lot more than four mentions - they beat that number on p5 alone!

Anyway, it doesnt really matter, i think everyone is saying the same thing, that it is relevant.

[marinello59]

Looks tonight is going to be another pointless shouty affair between Davidson and Sturgeon. Hopefully it gets better.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Looks tonight is going to be another pointless shouty affair between Davidson and Sturgeon. Hopefully it gets better.

Didnt know there was one tonight - think i've had my fill!

[cabbageandribs1875]

kezia dugdale asking nicola sturgeon how she would find the money to reverse tory cuts, kezia dugdale should ask jeremy corbyn how the hell he's going to find the money to reverse cuts in his fantasy manifesto :rolleyes: and also re kezia, what a ****** state she gets in tae

[DaveF]

Not sure about the format.

[ronaldo7]

Looks tonight is going to be another pointless shouty affair between Davidson and Sturgeon. Hopefully it gets better.

Kezia just lost the plot, and beat them both to the Screaming banshee title.:greengrin

[marinello59]

kezia dugdale asking nicola sturgeon how she would find the money to reverse tory cuts, kezia dugdale should ask jeremy corbyn how the hell he's going to find the money to reverse cuts in his fantasy manifesto :rolleyes: and also re kezia, what a ****** state she gets in tae
To be fair the Labour manifesto is costed. You obviously agree with the Tory magic money tree point of view though.:greengrin Dugdale's looked poor during that exchange but she was right to question the way the SNP always talk left but do precious little about it. Pity she made such an arse of it.

[marinello59]

Kezia just lost the plot, and beat them both to the Screaming banshee title.:greengrin

It's depressing stuff from the three of them. Who is the other one by the way. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Ruth Davidson getting nailed on the rape clause from Nicola and Kezia.

[cabbageandribs1875]

To be fair the Labour manifesto is costed. You obviously agree with the Tory magic money tree point of view though.:greengrin Dugdale's looked poor during that exchange but she was right to question the way the SNP always talk left but do precious little about it. Pity she made such an arse of it.


aye right :grr: but i will be perfectly honest in preferring the tories get power in westminster, not only because the pound in my pocket will take far less of a battering than it would with the normal practises of a labour government, which is spend spend spend, tax tax tax, loans loans loans, labour will bankrupt GB, like the mess they left the country in when the tories got back in :agree: also the thought of Corbyn and Abbott looking over the security of britain is quite frightening, and yes i'm fully aware that boris johnson is the alternative :(


all imo of course

[Mon Dieu4]

aye right :grr: but i will be perfectly honest in preferring the tories get power in westminster, not only because the pound in my pocket will take far less of a battering than it would with the normal practises of a labour government, which is spend spend spend, tax tax tax, loans loans loans, labour will bankrupt GB :agree: also the thought of Corbyn and Abbott looking over the security of britain is quite frightening, and yes i'm fully aware that boris johnson is the alternative :(


all imo of course

I had a chat with someone about this today, the Tories have the national debt at the highest it's ever been and have borrowed more money than any labour government ever, so either way if we are borrowing too much money then I'd rather live with the Labour Party using that money to try and be a bit fairer than tax cuts for corporations and the rich and austerity by the Tories

[HibernianJK]

aye right :grr: but i will be perfectly honest in preferring the tories get power in westminster, not only because the pound in my pocket will take far less of a battering than it would with the normal practises of a labour government, which is spend spend spend, tax tax tax, loans loans loans, labour will bankrupt GB, like the mess they left the country in when the tories got back in :agree: also the thought of Corbyn and Abbott looking over the security of britain is quite frightening, and yes i'm fully aware that boris johnson is the alternative :(


all imo of course

I don't think Corbyn is as convinced as he was 3 months ago in Diane Abbot being HS if Labour get in. Refused to guarantee it last few times he's been asked.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I had a chat with someone about this today, the Tories have the national debt at the highest it's ever been and have borrowed more money than any labour government ever, so either way if we are borrowing too much money then I'd rather live with the Labour Party using that money to try and be a bit fairer than tax cuts for corporations and the rich and austerity by the Tories


Gordon Brown introduced the most stealth taxes GB has EVER had, IF labour get in GB will then have the highest taxes ever, and that includes the working man, all these incredible giveaways from corbyn must be financed by someone(and yes i'm aware VAT and income tax will be going up with the tories as well), and it's not ALL going to be financed by the big fat cats, you and i will get battered for it as well :dunno: what's your preference for the security of the GB though ? the likes of May/Johnson, or Corbyn and Abbott ?

[cabbageandribs1875]

the quotes have gone a bit awry

[Mon Dieu4]

Gordon Brown introduced the most stealth taxes GB has EVER had, IF labour get in GB will then have the highest taxes ever, and that includes the working man, all these incredible giveaways from corbyn must be financed by someone(and yes i'm aware VAT and income tax will be going up with the tories as well), and it's not ALL going to be financed by the big fat cats, you and i will get battered for it as well :dunno: what's your preference for the security of the GB though ? the likes of May/Johnson, or Corbyn and Abbott ?

If taxes go up then I have no problem in paying a bit more for a fairer society, as for security I would class Johnson and Abbott in the same bracket, they are both imbeciles, May was Home Secretary for 6 years and PM for 1, I would state that her decisions have ultimately played a part in 3 terror attacks in 3 months as they have been on her watch and questions need asked.

Just to add I will not be voting Labour but I know who I'd rather have in charge

[cabbageandribs1875]

labour governments aren't very good with finances :hilarious i agree with that woman in the audience :greengrin

[marinello59]

the quotes have gone a bit awry

Sorted.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh oh kezia, ruthie babe is going to be annoyed with you after the show

ruth to kezia : ah thought we agreed tae get intae nicola and the union is aw that matters



see when the topics concentrate on policy topics ruth davidson is absolutely lost

[cabbageandribs1875]

If taxes go up then I have no problem in paying a bit more for a fairer society, as for security I would class Johnson and Abbott in the same bracket, they are both imbeciles, May was Home Secretary for 6 years and PM for 1, I would state that her decisions have ultimately played a part in 3 terror attacks in 3 months as they have been on her watch and questions need asked.

Just to add I will not be voting Labour but I know who I'd rather have in charge


i agree, but what would corbyn do that could be better for security ? corbyn has been anti everything for security proposals

[lucky]

Usual statements by Nats thinking that the union is the be all and end all for Labour. Most in Labour would rather deal with everyday issues on health , education , policing, transport than bother about the union. If there's another referendum then Labour will campaign against it until then we want to deal with real issues

[cabbageandribs1875]

all in all a strong and stable performance by Nicola, superb first minister, unlike pathetic Labour as per, WD Nic :agree:

[ronaldo7]

It's well seen, why the Tories don't want to speak about Westminster politics. The rape clause, waspi women, dementia tax, bedroom tax, disability benefits/motability cars, tax cuts for the rich, all made, Ruth, rather embarrassed.

[ronaldo7]

Usual statements by Nats thinking that the union is the be all and end all for Labour. Most in Labour would rather deal with everyday issues on health , education , policing, transport than bother about the union. If there's another referendum then Labour will campaign against it until then we want to deal with real issues

We dealt with all those issues last year...You lost, get over it, accept the result and move on. :wink:

[marinello59]

all in all a strong and stable performance by Nicola, superb first minister, unlike pathetic Labour as per

Strong and stable? Like May you mean? :greengrin
Sturgeon was the best of a bad bunch, it's not saying much.

[Hibrandenburg]

Usual statements by Nats thinking that the union is the be all and end all for Labour. Most in Labour would rather deal with everyday issues on health , education , policing, transport than bother about the union. If there's another referendum then Labour will campaign against it until then we want to deal with real issues

Then why do they want to block independence? Leave it out of the manifesto, let their members choose and then we could just get on with our day to day business.

[ronaldo7]

Strong and stable? Like May you mean? :greengrin
Sturgeon was the best of a bad bunch, it's not saying much.

18709

[cabbageandribs1875]

Strong and stable? Like May you mean? :greengrin
Sturgeon was the best of a bad bunch, it's not saying much.


well noticed :) agree with the rest, more pleasurable viewing when the topic is not mostly about independance, poor ruthie though

[marinello59]

18709

She did provide one of the funniest moments of the whole election when she couldn't look Dugdale in the eye after betraying a private conversation. The word shifty came to mind. Awkward. :greengrin

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The IRA mud-slinging is a desperate throw by the Tories to appeal to the Brexiteer types who managed to drag themselves out of the pub/bookies long enough to vote against Johnny Foreigner last year.

Without wishing to reignite a Brexit debate, this post is more ignorant and judgemental than anything I've heard from either the Brexit campaign or a Brexit voter. It's the left wing equivalent of a Daily Mail headline.

It's lazy and chap generalisations and sound bites such as this that lower the level of debate and really put people off politics. Not picking on remain in particular, all parties do it and from the left and right.

By all means, come and say why you disagree with Boris. Fair enough if you do. I personally find the IRA stuff relevant given terrorism is such a big issue. Obviously Corbyn's 'support' for the IRA is quite different to the threat we face just now, but it does give some insight to how he might view things as PM.

[ronaldo7]

She did provide one of the funniest moments of the whole election when she couldn't look Dugdale in the eye after betraying a private conversation. The word shifty came to mind. Awkward. :greengrin

When a private conversation goes viral in the MSM, that's a different matter. Many interviews with Kezia on changing her mind after the brexit vote.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Diane Abbott interview after sat night attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p83MeCyR4



unfortunately poor woman was too ill to attend a live TV programme this morning, or was she banned by costello, oops.. i mean Corbyn

[Colr]

Diane Abbott interview after sat night attacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p83MeCyR4



unfortunately poor woman was too ill to attend a live TV programme this morning, or was she banned by costello, oops i mean Corbyn

Nobody seems to have questioned her use of priavye education whilst promoting s policy to put it out of reach of people on similar income to her.

[marinello59]

When a private conversation goes viral in the MSM, that's a different matter. Many interviews with Kezia on changing her mind after the brexit vote.

It was the way it came across tonight. A moment of light relief during what has been a lacklustre election up here.
After all of these debates I think it will be a case of as you were on Friday morning.

[ronaldo7]

It was the way it came across tonight. A moment of light relief during what has been a lacklustre election up here.
After all of these debates I think it will be a case of as you were on Friday morning.

I've said on another thread, I think the tories will still be in power, and SNP will win Scotland. :agree:

[bawheid]

Usual statements by Nats thinking that the union is the be all and end all for Labour. Most in Labour would rather deal with everyday issues on health , education , policing, transport than bother about the union. If there's another referendum then Labour will campaign against it until then we want to deal with real issues

I'd like to think that was the case, but then I watched the Scottish Labour Party election broadcast the other night, and it was almost exclusively about stopping "another divisive independence referendum" (yawn)

Dugdale is hopeless. Here was an opportunity to piggy back onto the success of Corbyn nationwide, yet Scottish Labour are stuck trying to squeeze into Ruth Davidson's union cloak.

Corbyn would be better off with the support of SNP MPs than this bunch of McTernan led Blairite Tory-lite incompetents masquerading as Labour in Scotland. The sooner Kezia's shoogly peg falls on the floor the better IMO, and after briefly flirting with the idea of voting Labour for Corbyn, I've quickly come to my senses again.

[1van Sprou7e]

I've said on another thread, I think the tories will still be in power, and SNP will win Scotland. :agree:

Bold prediction...:na na:

[ronaldo7]

Bold prediction...:na na:

It's a prediction, not really bold though.

I hope Corbyn wins by 1, and the SNP hold the balance. :wink:

[lucky]

I've said on another thread, I think the tories will still be in power, and SNP will win Scotland. :agree:

Because both are what the SNP want. A Corbyn led government would be a disaster for independence. I still live in hope of at least a hung parliament . As for Scotland clearly the SNP will get the most seats but it will interesting how many seats the SNP win. Below 45 and it's not great below 40 would be a poor result compared to last time. I hope the SNP don't lose seats to the Tories but do to Labour

[HibernianJK]

Because both are what the SNP want. A Corbyn led government would be a disaster for independence. I still live in hope of at least a hung parliament . As for Scotland clearly the SNP will get the most seats but it will interesting how many seats the SNP win. Below 45 and it's not great below 40 would be a poor result compared to last time. I hope the SNP don't lose seats to the Tories but do to Labour

Would it? Corbyn has been much more willing to open a dialogue with SNP re indy than May has over the last few weeks.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Because both are what the SNP want. A Corbyn led government would be a disaster for independence. I still live in hope of at least a hung parliament . As for Scotland clearly the SNP will get the most seats but it will interesting how many seats the SNP win. Below 45 and it's not great below 40 would be a poor result compared to last time. I hope the SNP don't lose seats to the Tories but do to Labour

Agree with this - best case scenario for the SNP is a big block, bit not one big enough to matter arithmetically, and a tory govt to continue to be the evil 'other' that all nationalist movements need to villify amd help define themselves against.

[ronaldo7]

Because both are what the SNP want. A Corbyn led government would be a disaster for independence. I still live in hope of at least a hung parliament . As for Scotland clearly the SNP will get the most seats but it will interesting how many seats the SNP win. Below 45 and it's not great below 40 would be a poor result compared to last time. I hope the SNP don't lose seats to the Tories but do to Labour

Codswallop.

The SNP are the only party who've stood up against the Tories at WM in the last two years. Your party of the Abstainers were an embarrassment.

[weecounty hibby]

Because both are what the SNP want. A Corbyn led government would be a disaster for independence. I still live in hope of at least a hung parliament . As for Scotland clearly the SNP will get the most seats but it will interesting how many seats the SNP win. Below 45 and it's not great below 40 would be a poor result compared to last time. I hope the SNP don't lose seats to the Tories but do to Labour

Corbyn would be good for the independence cause. He has already said he would open negotiations with SNP if he is elected. Kezia might then openly support independence rather than being in denial

[weecounty hibby]

Agree with this - best case scenario for the SNP is a big block, bit not one big enough to matter arithmetically, and a tory govt to continue to be the evil 'other' that all nationalist movements need to villify amd help define themselves against.

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

[cabbageandribs1875]

after debate TV discussion, Bernard Ponsonby says 'their were more Conservatives in the audience tonight than people who had expressed a preference to vote labour, yet the person i think who was most uncomfortable with a lot of the audience reaction was Ruth Davidson, it's quite noticeable when she goes on the attack in indyref 2 she absolutely plays to a core mood in the country among no voters, but when the issue gets on to what conservatives are doing in government particularly on welfare and benefits, she looks very uncomfortable.


Bernard agrees with what i said earlier re 'HER' :greengrin:agree: Ruth Davidson offerers absolutely NOTHING when she's not yak yak yakkin about independence...NOTHING to offer, and if/when independence is one way or the other put to sleep for a few years(or because we get independence)whatever, then this woman will hopefully become a total irrelevance in this country...along with her tory party :agree::aok: get back in the box :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Usual statements by Nats thinking that the union is the be all and end all for Labour. Most in Labour would rather deal with everyday issues on health , education , policing, transport than bother about the union. If there's another referendum then Labour will campaign against it until then we want to deal with real issues


We dealt with all those issues last year...You lost, get over it, accept the result and move on. :wink:

Really?

How are you performing on health? Do you want to comment on delayed discharge figures? Or A+E waiting times?

They are both shambolic.

Or education? A massive drop in the Pisa ratings.

It's been a lost decade under the SNP.

A decade where progress could have been made.

A decade that has failed our childen, failed our needy and sick, as the stats show.

Shameful.

[snooky]

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

Unfortunately that feeling is apparently not recipricated by ScotLab voters.
Don't know why.

[steakbake]

Another divisive election. We really should stop having them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

Not in my mind, its just quite obvious that scenario is best for the SNP as it makes indy most likely.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Codswallop.

The SNP are the only party who've stood up against the Tories at WM in the last two years. Your party of the Abstainers were an embarrassment.

Its easy to oppose everything - its the easiest thing in the world to do. Its having to make tough choices, and deal with tough issues where politics is difficult.

[ronaldo7]

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

:agree:

We can keep all the money we're using to mitigate the bedroom tax, and move it elsewhere. We can also put Corbyn on the spot re Independence.

How can a man hold a position where he thinks their should be a United Ireland, and then Block the right of the Scottish people/parliament to self determination.

As I've said, the suburbs of surrey, and England will have the Tories in power for some time to come. Hope not though.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

:agree:

We can keep all the money we're using to mitigate the bedroom tax, and move it elsewhere. We can also put Corbyn on the spot re Independence.

How can a man hold a position where he thinks their should be a United Ireland, and then Block the right of the Scottish people/parliament to self determination.

As I've said, the suburbs of surrey, and England will have the Tories in power for some time to come. Hope not though.

I think he has 'amended' his position on a united ireland these days!

[marinello59]

Codswallop.

The SNP are the only party who've stood up against the Tories at WM in the last two years. Your party of the Abstainers were an embarrassment.

You could argue that no opposition party should ever turn down the opportunity to take on the ruling party at an election as that is where they can make the biggest difference yet the SNP abstained. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just pointing it out.

[ronaldo7]

You could argue that no opposition party should ever turn down the opportunity to take on the ruling party at an election as that is where they can make the biggest difference yet the SNP abstained. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just pointing it out.

They wanted a vote of no confidence in the Government to strengthen the oppositions hand.

A little bit different to waving through Brexit.

[ronaldo7]

I think he has 'amended' his position on a united ireland these days!

Has he? I must have missed that. What's his position now?

[marinello59]

They wanted a vote of no confidence in the Government to strengthen the oppositions hand.

A little bit different to waving through Brexit.

I'm not saying if either party was right or wrong to abstain. Just pointing it out. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I'm not saying if either party was right or wrong to abstain. Just pointing it out. :greengrin

That's fine.

Just pointing out, that abstaining on £30Billion pound of tory cuts is rather more important than a vote of no confidence.:greengrin

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-2a08-Labour-MPs-backing-for-austerity-Bill-a-disservice

LABOUR MP Diane Abbott accused her party’s leaders yesterday of doing working people a “great disservice” by backing Tory plans for permanent austerity.

[marinello59]

That's fine.

Just pointing out, that abstaining on £30Billion pound of tory cuts is rather more important than a vote of no confidence.:greengrin

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-2a08-Labour-MPs-backing-for-austerity-Bill-a-disservice

LABOUR MP Diane Abbott accused her party’s leaders yesterday of doing working people a “great disservice” by backing Tory plans for permanent austerity.

SNP good etc etc etc .:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

SNP good etc etc etc .:greengrin

Context my old boy, Context.:wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Has he? I must have missed that. What's his position now?

Did he not? Maybe im getting that mixed up, i wouldnt swear to it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Context my old boy, Context.:wink:

Sometimes called 'spin'... 😉

[ronaldo7]

Did he not? Maybe im getting that mixed up, i wouldnt swear to it.

I've not seen it, that's why I asked you. Can't seem to find anything at the moment. I'll have a look later.:aok:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

X2

[JeMeSouviens]

Agree with this - best case scenario for the SNP is a big block, bit not one big enough to matter arithmetically, and a tory govt to continue to be the evil 'other' that all nationalist movements need to villify amd help define themselves against.

I'm not so sure that's true.

Corbyn in and big tax hikes in England means a consequent big uplift in Scotland's block grant. The SNP gets more money to spend without having to raise taxes. And having the balance of power at Westminster would be a hoot for them I'm sure. Can imagine Salmond would have endless fun.

[JeMeSouviens]

Only in your mind. I am An SNP voter and want independence but I would much rather Labour got in than the Tories. As long as they manage it with enough English seats and the SNP still return a high number of MPs that would do for me

:agree:

I will laugh like a drain if May loses her majority. :pray:

[Hibernia&Alba]

:agree:

I will laugh like a drain if May loses her majority. :pray:

It would be fantastic, but the polls are all over the place. The key could be younger voters turning out in much larger numbers than usual. I still think it will be a comfortable Tory win, but I just hope it isn't a landslide.

[G B Young]

It would be fantastic, but the polls are all over the place. The key could be younger voters turning out in much larger numbers than usual. I still think it will be a comfortable Tory win, but I just hope it isn't a landslide.

One of the latest polls shows Labour being pushed into fourth place in Scotland by the Lib Dems which really would leave them close to utter irrelevance north of the border. However, in the event that they won power at Westminster (I agree it's unlikely) the SNP might ultimately have more to fear from a Labour resurgence under Corbyn spreading to Scotland than they do from the Tories. If lapsed Scottish Labour voters began to wonder whether the 'social justice' the SNP claims to stand for could actually be achieved within the union it might just start to undermine the independence cause.

[snooky]

One of the latest polls shows Labour being pushed into fourth place in Scotland by the Lib Dems which really would leave them close to utter irrelevance north of the border. However, in the event that they won power at Westminster (I agree it's unlikely) the SNP might ultimately have more to fear from a Labour resurgence under Corbyn spreading to Scotland than they do from the Tories. If lapsed Scottish Labour voters began to wonder whether the 'social justice' the SNP claims to stand for could actually be achieved within the union it might just start to undermine the independence cause.
A valid point.
In 'Party' terms, as the majority of new SNP supporters are probably disgruntled Labour voters therefore, the hierarchy may feel they could lose some of their support back to Labour.
In general terms, I think the individual SNP supporters are well aware they have more to fear from the Tories than Labour for their own well being .

[marinello59]

One of the latest polls shows Labour being pushed into fourth place in Scotland by the Lib Dems which really would leave them close to utter irrelevance north of the border. However, in the event that they won power at Westminster (I agree it's unlikely) the SNP might ultimately have more to fear from a Labour resurgence under Corbyn spreading to Scotland than they do from the Tories. If lapsed Scottish Labour voters began to wonder whether the 'social justice' the SNP claims to stand for could actually be achieved within the union it might just start to undermine the independence cause.

If Corbyn's Labour resurgence continues then maybe the old left v right battleground will be be revisited. With two centre right parties fighting it out mainly on the constitution there will be an opportunity for Labour. Its a bloody big if though. :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

A valid point.
In 'Party' terms, as the majority of new SNP supporters are probably disgruntled Labour voters therefore, the hierarchy may feel they could lose some of their support back to Labour.
In general terms, I think the individual SNP supporters are well aware they have more to fear from the Tories than Labour for their own well being .

We're also aware that a vote for Labour in Scotland will more than likely result in the tories gaining seats here. So they are both equally a threat.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40186108

The Scottish Liberal Democrats' general election campaign director has been reported to prosecutors over alleged criminality.

Police have been investigating MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton following a complaint regarding last year's Holyrood election.



i'm astonished




that there's a lib-dem MSP, what's that all about then, some kind of protest vote ?:greengrin

[lucky]

Best Labour can hope for tomorrow is a hung parliament. I fear many will repeat what took place in 1992, people want change but will still vote Tory and she will get her increased majority. I hope I'm wrong.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40186108

The Scottish Liberal Democrats' general election campaign director has been reported to prosecutors over alleged criminality.

Police have been investigating MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton following a complaint regarding last year's Holyrood election.



i'm astonished




that there's a lib-dem MSP, what's that all about then, some kind of protest vote ?:greengrin

Well, that's my MSP and MP both in soapy bubble.

And people wonder why I'm cynical about them all ? :greengrin

[marinello59]

Best Labour can hope for tomorrow is a hung parliament. I fear many will repeat what took place in 1992, people want change but will still vote Tory and she will get her increased majority. I hope I'm wrong.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing for a few days now.

[steakbake]

Best Labour can hope for tomorrow is a hung parliament. I fear many will repeat what took place in 1992, people want change but will still vote Tory and she will get her increased majority. I hope I'm wrong.

The best we can all hope for, sir.

I've voted for the past 20 years in 5 general elections. In 2010, I was disappointed that it was the Tories and LibDems. In 2015, I was disappointed that it was the Tories, but although he's not from my politics and I don't particularly like the guy (least of all now), I could put up with Cameron.

In 2017, I would be genuinely gutted if the Tories won. I have absolutely no common purpose with someone like Theresa May and the type of Conservatism that she represents.

I'm wary of the echo chamber effect which has given me some hope that it might be a hung parliament or a very low Tory majority. Outside of that echo chamber, I do worry that the Tories will get a pretty high majority and she'll be given free reign to do all sorts of things which were unimaginable under Cameron or any other leader in my lifetime.

The UK will change and it won't be in a positive way.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The best we can all hope for, sir.

I've voted for the past 20 years in 5 general elections. In 2010, I was disappointed that it was the Tories and LibDems. In 2015, I was disappointed that it was the Tories, but although he's not from my politics and I don't particularly like the guy (least of all now), I could put up with Cameron.

In 2017, I would be genuinely gutted if the Tories won. I have absolutely no common purpose with someone like Theresa May and the type of Conservatism that she represents.

I'm wary of the echo chamber effect which has given me some hope that it might be a hung parliament or a very low Tory majority. Outside of that echo chamber, I do worry that the Tories will get a pretty high majority and she'll be given free reign to do all sorts of things which were unimaginable under Cameron or any other leader in my lifetime.

The UK will change and it won't be in a positive way.

I resigned myself to a big Tory win on the day the election was called. It's five more years of austerity, poverty and decline, along with Brexit. If it's even remotely close, I will be so relieved to know there is some hope for progressive values.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm not so sure that's true.

Corbyn in and big tax hikes in England means a consequent big uplift in Scotland's block grant. The SNP gets more money to spend without having to raise taxes. And having the balance of power at Westminster would be a hoot for them I'm sure. Can imagine Salmond would have endless fun.

True, but it would be badged as a significant union dividend.

You are right, nobody knows how these things would play out.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40186108

The Scottish Liberal Democrats' general election campaign director has been reported to prosecutors over alleged criminality.

Police have been investigating MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton following a complaint regarding last year's Holyrood election.



i'm astonished




that there's a lib-dem MSP, what's that all about then, some kind of protest vote ?:greengrin

I hope this isnt true, hes a good guy by general repute.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Well, that's my MSP and MP both in soapy bubble.

And people wonder why I'm cynical about them all ? :greengrin


hope you've not been helping them cook the books :cb





I hope this isnt true, hes a good guy by general repute.


doesn't look good for him if the polis have thought it's worth reporting to the PF, he will probably get out in time for the next GE :) nah, most likely a slap on the wrist

[cabbageandribs1875]

Latest Mori in scotland that i can see

SNP 43%
Lab 25%
Cons 25%
LDem 5%


down south

Cons 45%
Lab 40%
LDem 7%

[Hibernia&Alba]

To see the Tories on 25% in Scotland sickens me.

[marinello59]

To see the Tories on 25% in Scotland sickens me.

It just shows the incompetence of the Labour Party up here when they leave the way clear for two centre right parties to split the seats between them.

[speedy_gonzales]

To see the Tories on 25% in Scotland sickens me.
Why though, what makes us so special?
We really need to accept and understand that people have different opinions and these opinions are usually formed through life experience and information learned.
To suggest that nobody should follow or vote Tory in this whole country because of what, previous governments, Thatcher, "we're better than that"?

I thought Edinburgh was the best city in the world, I thought Hibernian were the only team to follow in this city, the thinking man's team, the team artisans, poets and scholars followed. Guess what, the same people from the same city follow the other mob and they look at us as if we have two heads!

We are allowed a choice, your choice for whatever reason may not be the same as mines, his or his, but we make that choice with the best intent for what we know.


Incidentally, I could never vote Tory, for no other reason than my miner grandad would come back and haunt me if I did! I just don't get too hung up on who votes for who & why.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It just shows the incompetence of the Labour Party up here when they leave the way clear for two centre right parties to split the seats between them.

New Labour's acceptance of the neoliberal agenda, in addition to an illegal war, shattered its credibility in Scotland. Even a very centrist SNP was able to outflank it on the left, such was Labour's abdication of its radical legacy. In England Labour are lucky there is no SNP equivalent, or it would be finished. The election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader at least demonstrates that millions of people who regard themselves as democratic socialists have had enough of Thatcher lite but want a different society, but it's come too late in Scotland and will take the party a long time to win back the trust of its former base. Britain needs an alternative voice to forty years of neoliberalism; a radical vision against inequality and insecurity.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why though, what makes us so special?
We really need to accept and understand that people have different opinions and these opinions are usually formed through life experience and information learned.
To suggest that nobody should follow or vote Tory in this whole country because of what, previous governments, Thatcher, "we're better than that"?

I thought Edinburgh was the best city in the world, I thought Hibernian were the only team to follow in this city, the thinking man's team, the team artisans, poets and scholars followed. Guess what, the same people from the same city follow the other mob and they look at us as if we have two heads!

We are allowed a choice, your choice for whatever reason may not be the same as mines, his or his, but we make that choice with the best intent for what we know.


Incidentally, I could never vote Tory, for no other reason than my miner grandad would come back and haunt me if I did! I just don't get too hung up on who votes for who & why.

I agree entirely with what you say about democratic choice, but it's sickening to me because the views of the Tory Party are diametrically opposed to my own values. I'm talking policies, not from any opposition to democratic politics. of course I support the right of everyone to support whichever party they wish. Their philosophy has clearly failed, that's the issue to me. So, to see one quarter of Scots supporting their ideology again depresses me. We've had forty years of Thatcherism, and the promises of trickledown economics haven't materialised, yet their support here is growing. I'm baffled.

[Betty Boop]

New Labour's acceptance of the neoliberal agenda, in addition to an illegal war, shattered its credibility in Scotland. Even a very centrist SNP was able to outflank it on the left, such was Labour's abdication of its radical legacy. In England Labour are lucky there is no SNP equivalent, or it would be finished. The election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader at least demonstrates that millions of people who regard themselves as democratic socialists have had enough of Thatcher lite but want a different society, but it's come too late in Scotland and will take the party a long time to win back the trust of its former base. Britain needs an alternative voice to forty years of neoliberalism; a radical vision against inequality and insecurity.



Just a pity that Jezza was being stabbed in the back from MPs from his own party, and in the front from the right wing press and the BBC. Any way whatever the result, he's had a great campaign, proud of him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just a pity that Jezza was being stabbed in the back from MPs from his own party, and in the front from the right wing press and the BBC. Any way whatever the result, he's had a great campaign, proud of him.

I agree with you, Betty. It's interesting to note that anti-establishment voting from the right e.g. Trump and Brexit are championed, but when it's done from the left e.g. Corbyn it's denigrated. I think we can tell when vested interests are really threatened. However, the Corbyn phenomenon has been an anti-establishment movement from below, and has been a breath of fresh air. Whatever happens tomorrow, Labour must think about what it stands for. The enthusiasm for Corbyn means the genie is out of the bottle: ridiculed and written off, he's nonetheless brought hope to millions.

[Colr]

Just a pity that Jezza was being stabbed in the back from MPs from his own party, and in the front from the right wing press and the BBC. Any way whatever the result, he's had a great campaign, proud of him.

He has run a decent campaign but he has been up against a woman with all the charisma of a paper bag who, nevertheless, was presented as the focus for a personality cult. The tories truly are woefull and are there for the taking.

I'm not sure they'll get a better chance is May is unlikely to survive this for long.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He has run a decent campaign but he has been up against a woman with all the charisma of a paper bag who, nevertheless, was presented as the focus for a personality cult. The tories truly are woefull and are there for the taking.

I'm not sure they'll get a better chance is May is unlikely to survive this for long.

I think May's future will depend upon the result tomorrow. She called the election expecting a huge win, so anything less will create speculation. I do think the media portrayal of Corbyn has harmed Labour's chances. It seems the Labour policies are popular but Corbyn's electability is doubted, and I think the constant media negativity has driven that. The establishment doesn't want to discuss the issues because Corbyn is on the right track, hence we've had weeks of personal abuse against him e.g. IRA support. I've yet to read one quote from Corbyn which states his support for the IRA, but the dog whistles have been widespread. However, we've heard very little about how he was right about Iraq and Syria and May was wrong.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think May's future will depend upon the result tomorrow. She called the election expecting a huge win, so anything less will create speculation. I do think the media portrayal of Corbyn has harmed Labour's chances. It seems the Labour policies are popular but Corbyn's electability is doubted, and I think the constant media negativity has driven that. The establishment doesn't want to discuss the issues because Corbyn is on the right track, hence we've had weeks of personal abuse against him e.g. IRA support. I've yet to read one quote from Corbyn which states his support for the IRA, but the dog whistles have been widespread. However, we've heard very little about how he was right about Iraq and Syria and May was wrong.

I also think the idea that corbyn's policies are popular needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Of course, if you ask anyone about a policy in isolation, with no cost to them, they will say they like it.

But to present all of them at the same time, and say they will all be paid for by someone else will set alarm bells ringing for many. Do they believe that is really deliverable?

I actually think corbyn would have been better to nlbe a little less ambitious, and a little more focused, it would have been far more believable imo.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I also think the idea that corbyn's policies are popular needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Of course, if you ask anyone about a policy in isolation, with no cost to them, they will say they like it.

But to present all of them at the same time, and say they will all be paid for by someone else will set alarm bells ringing for many. Do they believe that is really deliverable?

I actually think corbyn would have been better to nlbe a little less ambitious, and a little more focused, it would have been far more believable imo.

The Labour manifesto is costed, unlike the Tory manifesto, and means income tax rises for only the top 5% of earners. What isn't deliverable?

[weecounty hibby]

[QUOTE=snooky;5063345]A valid point.
In 'Party' terms, as the majority of new SNP supporters are probably disgruntled Labour voters therefore, the hierarchy may feel they could lose some of their support back to them

Maybe Labour should consider the fact that they have lost some of these voters because they refuse to back Independence. Labour are a total mess but they were losing voters to the SNP before they became the state they are at the moment in Scotland

[G B Young]

He has run a decent campaign but he has been up against a woman with all the charisma of a paper bag who, nevertheless, was presented as the focus for a personality cult. The tories truly are woefull and are there for the taking.

I'm not sure they'll get a better chance is May is unlikely to survive this for long.

I'd agree with that. Despite making such heavy weather of this campaign, she might get the nod to take us through the Brexit process but I'd be surprised if she was still the Tory leader come the next election (by which time Corbyn will be 73 so will probably be gone as well).

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Labour manifesto is costed, unlike the Tory manifesto, and means income tax rises for only the top 5% of earners. What isn't deliverable?

Its costed, but what if its wrong? 250bn stimulus by just taxing the top 5% - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Im voting Labour because of my constituency, and hes one me around a lot, but having appealing policies has nevet been the lefts problem, its delivering the economics and paying for it all that has.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Its costed, but what if its wrong? 250bn stimulus by just taxing the top 5% - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Im voting Labour because of my constituency, and hes one me around a lot, but having appealing policies has nevet been the lefts problem, its delivering the economics and paying for it all that has.


In what sense? Do you mean 'economics' based upon a money system that is entirely undemocratic and man made i.e. we must all subscribe to a method of survival which we didn't create but which we're told is immutable? Do you mean we must permanently play by the capitalist's rules and so forever be on the defensive when presented by a game played according to their parameters and their system of what 'real life' is? This might all seem other wordly, but it really isn't. We have man made system of production, distribution and exchange, so why can't we change it and devise a way to live devoid of insistence upon payment of some kind? Is it really so crazy?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In what sense? Do you mean 'economics' based upon a money system that is entirely undemocratic and man made i.e. we must all subscribe to a method of survival which we didn't create but which we're told is immutable? Do you mean we must permanently play by the capitalist's rules and so forever be on the defensive when presented by a game played according to their parameters and their system of what 'real life' is? This might all seem other wordly, but it really isn't. We have man made system of production, distribution and exchange, so why can't we change it and devise a way to live devoid of insistence upon payment of some kind? Is it really so crazy?

Yes, in that sense.

[JimBHibees]

Its costed, but what if its wrong? 250bn stimulus by just taxing the top 5% - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Im voting Labour because of my constituency, and hes one me around a lot, but having appealing policies has nevet been the lefts problem, its delivering the economics and paying for it all that has.

So tactical voting then?

[JeMeSouviens]

Its costed, but what if its wrong? 250bn stimulus by just taxing the top 5% - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Im voting Labour because of my constituency, and hes one me around a lot, but having appealing policies has nevet been the lefts problem, its delivering the economics and paying for it all that has.


Alternative take:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/14/is-labour-manifesto-fantasy-land-quite-the-opposite

[Colr]

I think May's future will depend upon the result tomorrow. She called the election expecting a huge win, so anything less will create speculation. I do think the media portrayal of Corbyn has harmed Labour's chances. It seems the Labour policies are popular but Corbyn's electability is doubted, and I think the constant media negativity has driven that. The establishment doesn't want to discuss the issues because Corbyn is on the right track, hence we've had weeks of personal abuse against him e.g. IRA support. I've yet to read one quote from Corbyn which states his support for the IRA, but the dog whistles have been widespread. However, we've heard very little about how he was right about Iraq and Syria and May was wrong.

If May gets anything less than a decent increase she is toast.

Corbyn has greatly benefited from being able to get his message across without it being filtered through the Tory-centric media (including the middle-class saturated BBC) which will not have gone down well with the Tory grandees. He's grown in confidence and skill as he's gone along.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the working class UKIP growth areas. For all the talk of those voters going to the Tories, I am not convinced. The overall polls seems to show the decline in UKIP being mirrored by growth for Labour but UKIP never won any seats anyway!!

[lucky]

If May gets anything less than a decent increase she is toast.

Corbyn has greatly benefited from being able to get his message across without it being filtered through the Tory-centric media (including the middle-class saturated BBC) which will not have gone down well with the Tory grandees. He's grown in confidence and skill as he's gone along.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the working class UKIP growth areas. For all the talk of those voters going to the Tories, I am not convinced. The overall polls seems to show the decline in UKIP being mirrored by growth for Labour but UKIP never won any seats anyway!!

It's the UKIP vote which could swing the election to the Tories. Whilst their vote was never going to win seats it split the right wing vote. If UKIP votes shrinks to 3 or 4% and if the rest moves to the Tories then they will increase their majority to over 30

[Colr]

It's the UKIP vote which could swing the election to the Tories. Whilst their vote was never going to win seats it split the right wing vote. If UKIP votes shrinks to 3 or 4% and if the rest moves to the Tories then they will increase their majority to over 30

I think the pattern with UKIP is different in the south and the north or England. The southern UKIP Tories will go back to the Tories, I guess, so the threat they were perceieved to have to southern Tories will receed. However, UKIP have, for years now, targetted expansion of their vote in the Labour heartlands. The Tories have been trying very hard to swing those votes toward themselves. I have my doubts that it'll happen.

[cabbageandribs1875]

first fight of the day at a polling station :agree:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40201908/media-scuffle-outside-polling-station









:)

[One Day Soon]

first fight of the day at a polling station :agree:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40201908/media-scuffle-outside-polling-station









:)




That's pretty funny. Especially when you consider that they're fighting over Tim Farron...

I'll say a Tory majority of between 50 and 100, probably somewhere around 80.

In Scotland Nat losses of between 6 and 14, probably 9.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So tactical voting then?

Yes, tactical voting. By all accounts a good MP too, and i dotlnt rate the nat candidate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, tactical voting. By all accounts a good MP too, and i dotlnt rate the nat candidate.

I have never, and never would, vote tactically. My first choice does not have a candidate in my constituency so the default position is the party closest to the same views on the majority of policies.

In the 2015 GE, the 2016 Scottish parliament and the Council elections I voted for the same party. At no time did I vote for a personality, but for the policies put forward by the parties. Whether the party is in with a chance of winning or not.

I was horrified in 2016 to hear long time Lib Dem members campaigning for the Conservative Party.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I have never, and never would, vote tactically. My first choice does not have a candidate in my constituency so the default position is the party closest to the same views on the majority of policies.

In the 2015 GE, the 2016 Scottish parliament and the Council elections I voted for the same party. At no time did I vote for a personality, but for the policies put forward by the parties. Whether the party is in with a chance of winning or not.

I was horrified in 2016 to hear long time Lib Dem members campaigning for the Conservative Party.

Fair enough.

But the FPTP makes it necessary imo, and i have no problem in priciple with doing it.

First and foremost, you are voting for a constituency MP.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Fair enough.

But the FPTP makes it necessary imo, and i have no problem in priciple with doing it.

First and foremost, you are voting for a constituency MP.

True, the system we have forces it upon some people in marginals. My constituency isn't one of them, so I can cast a positive ballot for what I believe in. However, I would do it if needed.