Snap Election?

[BroxburnHibee]

May to make a statement soon.

What else could it be?

Her resignation?

[pacoluna]

Election, war NK/Syria or resignation.

The pound sterling has dropped.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seems bizarre to wait until Brexit negotiations are about to start and now call an election?

Could be resignation I suppose, there have been rumours she hates being PM now she's got there. Or could just be a damp squib ...

[pacoluna]

May to make a statement soon.

What else could it be?

Her resignation?
Downing Street have had almost an hour now to discourage journalists from speculating about an early election. They are not doing that, which increases the chances that it will be an election announcement.

[Moulin Yarns]

May to make a statement soon.

What else could it be?

Her resignation?

removing the two child benefit cap?

The date for Indyref2? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Laura Kuenssberg reporting it is an election on June 8.

[Moulin Yarns]

Laura Kuenssberg reporting it is an election on June 8.


Speculation in news agencies that is the case. Some suggestion there is a clue in the way the lectern has been set up.


CNFIRMED

[Pretty Boy]

Interesting to see how the opposition play this. Is there gains to be made in running on a pro EU stance?

Smart move by May imo as she'll win, almost certainly with a majority and it gives her a mandate. Labour have a few big decisions to make in the coming days as they are heading for a beating and a half as it stands.

[pacoluna]

slight positive note - David mundell will hopefully be punted.

[Moulin Yarns]

#Notatthistime :wink:

[marinello59]

Very clever move by May. There will be a large number of Labour members realising it's the end of the road for them.
The SNP have a tough call to make here as well. Sturgeon made it clear that a vote for them wasn't a vote for Independence at the last election. Do they say that it is this time around?

[JeMeSouviens]

So now *is* the time for a general election? No hints of shameless opportunism there then ... :rolleyes:

Given the fixed term parliaments act, have the Labour turkeys committed to vote for xmas yet?

[Mikey]

Given the fixed term parliaments act, have the Labour turkeys committed to vote for xmas yet?

How will the SNP vote?

[Moulin Yarns]

Very clever move by May. There will be a large number of Labour members realising it's the end of the road for them.
The SNP have a tough call to make here as well. Sturgeon made it clear that a vote for them wasn't a vote for Independence at the last election. Do they say that it is this time around?

Should campaign purely on staying in Europe, IMO.

timing is a b ugger though with the Council Elections campaign in full swing, and now there will be a GE campaign in parallel.

[marinello59]

So now *is* the time for a general election? No hints of shameless opportunism there then ... :rolleyes:

Given the fixed term parliaments act, have the Labour turkeys committed to vote for xmas yet?

Corbyn has already said Labour will back it.

[JeMeSouviens]

How will the SNP vote?

Well it's irrelevant to the outcome. I guess they will vote for it as a chance (however forlorn the hope actually is) to replace the Tories.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Didnt see that coming!

Apparently, the tory right are the most unhappy as a big win dilutes their influence.

How will brexit and indyref2 play in? Fascinating to watch.

A Lib Dem revival standing on an anti-Brexit ticket?

[JeMeSouviens]

Very clever move by May. There will be a large number of Labour members realising it's the end of the road for them.
The SNP have a tough call to make here as well. Sturgeon made it clear that a vote for them wasn't a vote for Independence at the last election. Do they say that it is this time around?

They will surely have to say it's a vote for a referendum.

[Mikey]

Well it's irrelevant to the outcome. I guess they will vote for it as a chance (however forlorn the hope actually is) to replace the Tories.

The only thing that will be replaced is a few dozen Labour MP's down south :greengrin

Presumably their next leadership contest will be in the Autumn.

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn has already said Labour will back it.

Gets to sign his own death warrant then. The question for Labour is following the bloodbath can they stop another leader coming from the radical left being elected by the same folk that elected Corbyn twice?

[marinello59]

They will surely have to say it's a vote for a referendum.

Probably. It's going to be interesting that's for sure.

[JeMeSouviens]

Didnt see that coming!

Apparently, the tory right are the most unhappy as a big win dilutes their influence.

How will brexit and indyref2 play in? Fascinating to watch.

A Lib Dem revival standing on an anti-Brexit ticket?

Yep, it's a good moment for opportunists in the Lib Dems. :wink:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So now *is* the time for a general election? No hints of shameless opportunism there then ... :rolleyes:

Given the fixed term parliaments act, have the Labour turkeys committed to vote for xmas yet?

Absolutely it is opportunism! Chance to eviscerate the left, consolidate her position, dilute the influence of her own mad right wing, and force all the other parties to spend a fortune that they dont have.

This last point is particuarly salient in scotland given we atr not long past an election, and in middle of council elections and presumably with partiea building up warchests for potential indyref2.

Shes an operator is May...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yep, it's a good moment for opportunists in the Lib Dems. :wink:

To be fair to the libs, they habe taken a strong anti brsxit srance from the outset.

But of course, that will habe been partly to position themselves on unoccupied ground.

[JeMeSouviens]

To be fair to the libs, they habe taken a strong anti brsxit srance from the outset.

But of course, that will habe been partly to position themselves on unoccupied ground.

o/t are you trying to prove that thing where you jumble character order inside words and folk can still read it? :wink:

Yes, it's a struggle being fair to libs but I'd probably go along with that and I hope they give the Brexiteers a real fright down south.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

o/t are you trying to prove that thing where you jumble character order inside words and folk can still read it? :wink:

Yes, it's a struggle being fair to libs but I'd probably go along with that and I hope they give the Brexiteers a real fright down south.

Will be interesting to see if they can make hay with the labour collapse, or whether it will be those lib/tory marginals where they can win - or both?

Dont see it translating up here because obviously the nats habe also beem very anti-brexit.

[JeMeSouviens]

Absolutely it is opportunism! Chance to eviscerate the left, consolidate her position, dilute the influence of her own mad right wing, and force all the other parties to spend a fortune that they dont have.

This last point is particuarly salient in scotland given we atr not long past an election, and in middle of council elections and presumably with partiea building up warchests for potential indyref2.

Shes an operator is May...

The thing is, all those things were there when she categorically stated she *wouldn't* call an election. I'm not sure returning an impregnable (and seemingly eternal) Tory majority is the smart move to repelling another indyref but we shall see. Maybe she's noticed she's attracting former Yes voters* in the Edinburgh Southside and getting carried away ... :wink:


* well voter at least.

[Mikey]

Does this mean that the following election should be in the first week of May in 2022?

Will the 5 year timescale start again?

[JeMeSouviens]

Does this mean that the following election should be in the first week of May in 2022?

Will the 5 year timescale start again?

I think so. I don't think anyone's talking about repealing the fixed term thing, just overriding it.

[pacoluna]

This is a general election that'll be about leave vs remain and independence vs the Union, but not about ground level politics.

[Stranraer]

Just come back from delivering leaflets for the council elections when I saw this! Going to be a really busy couple of months.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is a general election that'll be about leave vs remain and independence vs the Union, but not about ground level politics.

Yes, and if the parties that came second to tories last time round can gather support from other parties in tactical voting this could bit her on the bum. Make it more like another referendum, and don't dilute the opposition to the tories.

It will never happen of course, but if the 3rd and 4th placed parties were to agree to not run then it might just work.

[Jonnyboy]

After listening to the PM speak exclusively about the effect of division in the House regarding Brexit, can anyone tell me why the slimeball that is Ian Duncan Smith answered the first question to him "this is not about Brexit "

[makaveli1875]

i guess we will see what the country thinks about brexit now and it will put Sturgeons 'cast iron' mandate to the test

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think so. I don't think anyone's talking about repealing the fixed term thing, just overriding it.

Ah right, i thought they wanted to repeal it. Which would thrn bring us back to anytime within five years.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

After listening to the PM speak exclusively about the effect of division in the House regarding Brexit, can anyone tell me why the slimeball that is Ian Duncan Smith answered the first question to him "this is not about Brexit "

I think you answered your own question

[Stranraer]

My MP has been absolutely brilliant in helping local people including myself and he's SNP so he has my vote.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The thing is, all those things were there when she categorically stated she *wouldn't* call an election. I'm not sure returning an impregnable (and seemingly eternal) Tory majority is the smart move to repelling another indyref but we shall see. Maybe she's noticed she's attracting former Yes voters* in the Edinburgh Southside and getting carried away ... :wink:


* well voter at least.

Funny you should say that, but as the only labour constituency in scotland, its a chance to get rid of that hearts ******* Murray.

[johnbc70]

Has Nicola Sturgeon made any comments yet, really interested to see how the SNP play this. Whats their message?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Has Nicola Sturgeon made any comments yet, really interested to see how the SNP play this. Whats their message?

Tweeted something, about taking the country right etc

I think she will position herself as to the left, standing up for scotland, etc

[Moulin Yarns]

Has Nicola Sturgeon made any comments yet, really interested to see how the SNP play this. Whats their message?


This do.



This announcement is one of the most extraordinary U-turns in recent political history, and it shows that Theresa May is once again putting the interests of her party ahead of those of the country. “She is clearly betting that the Tories can win a bigger majority in England given the utter disarray in the Labour Party.
“That makes it all the important that Scotland is protected from a Tory Party which now sees the chance of grabbing control of government for many years to come and moving the UK further to the right – forcing through a hard Brexit and imposing deeper cuts in the process.
“That means that this will be – more than ever before – an election about standing up for Scotland, in the face of a right-wing, austerity obsessed Tory government with no mandate in Scotland but which now thinks it can do whatever it wants and get away with it."
That means that this will be – more than ever before – an election about standing up for Scotland, in the face of a right-wing, austerity obsessed Tory government with no mandate in Scotland but which now thinks it can do whatever it wants and get away with it.
“In terms of Scotland, this move is a huge political miscalculation by the Prime Minister. “It will once again give people the opportunity to reject the Tories’ narrow, divisive agenda, as well as reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists for giving the people of Scotland a choice on their future. "The SNP will always put the people of Scotland first – and between now and June 8th we will work harder than ever to retain the trust of the people.”

[pacoluna]

i guess we will see what the country thinks about brexit now and it will put Sturgeons 'cast iron' mandate to the test
SNP have 56 MPS why are unionists saying this a chance to send a message to Sturgeon? Labour libdems and tories have ONE MP each.. what exactly would sending a message be?

[Swedish hibee]

Whether you like her or loathe her- May has guts to call this election. Nicola Sturgeon was sounding rattled a bit when I heard her on the radio. No-one seen this coming did they!

[Betty Boop]

A huge opportunity for the Lib Dems.

[Peevemor]

The SNP, with 40%+ of the vote, should romp home in Scotland under the FPTP system. Hopefully 50+ Westminster SNP MPs again.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The SNP, with 40%+ of the vote, should romp home in Scotland under the FPTP system. Hopefully 50+ Westminster SNP MPs again.

Its likely i think. I think they will shed a few marginals, but i dont think there is anything like a strong enougj opposition to take votes from them.

The tories are polling quite well for them, but its unlikely to lead to lots of seats.

[Hiber-nation]

A huge opportunity for the Lib Dems.

But probably too early although due to Brexit they will win back a lot of these seats they lost last time to the Tories.

A lot of folk haven't forgotten 2010.

[stoneyburn hibs]

So there definitely isn't a plan for a trade deal with Europe ?

[grunt]

Interesting to see how the opposition play this. What opposition?

[marinello59]

SNP have 56 MPS why are unionists saying this a chance to send a message to Sturgeon? Labour libdems and tories have ONE MP each.. what exactly would sending a message be?

Im no Unionist.
Sturgeon will have to be very careful how she plays this. The 56 SNP members were returned on an anti-Tory platform, not as an endorsement of Independence. Sturgeon went to great lengths to make that clear. There's an opportunity here but the cards need to be played correctly.

[johnbc70]

So if the SNP return same number of MPs then what's changed? If anything if they lose any marginal seats and have less MPs has their position not weakened?

[CropleyWasGod]

So if the SNP return same number of MPs then what's changed? If anything if they lose any marginal seats and have less MPs has their position not weakened?

No matter what happens, both sides in the Indy debate will spin the numbers.

Fewer seats/larger share of the vote = "endorsement" say the SNP, "rejection" say the rest.

... and all permutations of the above.

[pacoluna]

Im no Unionist.
Sturgeon will have to be very careful how she plays this. The 56 SNP members were returned on an anti-Tory platform, not as an endorsement of Independence. Sturgeon went to great lengths to make that clear. There's an opportunity here but the cards need to be played correctly.

and it will remain that way . The reality is vote SNP or give in to a Tory party that are using this snap election to try and crush their opponents and clear the pathway for an austerity driven hard brexit without questions. With regards to unionists using this snap election to send a message to Sturgeon - I don't know how that is possible considering it would take a mammoth change of electoral persuasion. Now it's the Unionists using political opportunism when the reality is there is no real opportunity,

Plus The SNP already have a mandate for Indyref2 through ScotGov, After all we had indyref1 with only 6 MPs at WM.

[Peevemor]

So if the SNP return same number of MPs then what's changed? If anything if they lose any marginal seats and have less MPs has their position not weakened?

Say, for example, the SNP returned 46/59 MPs instead of the current 56/59, then you could say that they're weaker but hardly weak.

In the event of a hung parliament, they could even win less seats but end up stronger.

[steakbake]

Im no Unionist.
Sturgeon will have to be very careful how she plays this. The 56 SNP members were returned on an anti-Tory platform, not as an endorsement of Independence. Sturgeon went to great lengths to make that clear. There's an opportunity here but the cards need to be played correctly.

Absolutely right.

They will be aware that there are a lot of people who will 'lend' them a vote to keep the Tories out, but must not be thought of as them being Yes voters.

I don't think they'll be tempted to say that this is about independence.

Ian Murray looks fragile - a swing from Lab to Con there and the SNP vote holding up and he'd be out. Mundell has a small 1.5% majority - he may increase it but I think he, too, looks shaky. I suspect Orkney and Shetland would vote LibDem till the cows come home.

Either way, I still expect them to maintain the majority of their seats.

Down south, Lab could be in trouble across the board but I'd read that there are 27 Con seats which look achievable for the LibDems.

This will be a very complex election. I don't expect that the current polls will be reflected in the final result.

Makes me wonder - after nearly a year of strenuously denying any thought of having an election, she decides to call it now.

[greenlex]

Blatant opportunism to crush a labour party already on its knees. Also unlikely that the SNP can repeat the high of the last one. Argueably neither would be the case in an election after the hard brexit deal is known. Buys them time to railroad through right wing agenda almost unchallenged.

[pacoluna]

Blatant opportunism to crush a labour party already on its knees. Also unlikely that the SNP can repeat the high of the last one. Argueably neither would be the case in an election after the hard brexit deal is known. Buys them time to railroad through right wing agenda almost unchallenged.
Yup and a hypocrite of the highest order, analytically and decisively a dangerous woman.

[JeMeSouviens]

Absolutely right.

They will be aware that there are a lot of people who will 'lend' them a vote to keep the Tories out, but must not be thought of as them being Yes voters.

I don't think they'll be tempted to say that this is about independence.

Ian Murray looks fragile - a swing from Lab to Con there and the SNP vote holding up and he'd be out. Mundell has a small 1.5% majority - he may increase it but I think he, too, looks shaky. I suspect Orkney and Shetland would vote LibDem till the cows come home.

Either way, I still expect them to maintain the majority of their seats.

Down south, Lab could be in trouble across the board but I'd read that there are 27 Con seats which look achievable for the LibDems.

This will be a very complex election. I don't expect that the current polls will be reflected in the final result.

Makes me wonder - after nearly a year of strenuously denying any thought of having an election, she decides to call it now.

I take the point that it has to be handled cannily but I'm not sure the SNP are all that vulnerable. They got 50% of the vote last time but that included most Green voters deciding tactically that under fptp their votes were wasted.

The one thing that would make the SNP vulnerable would be unionist tactical voting but it's difficult to organise that in the context of a UK GE.

[GlesgaeHibby]

The timing is unbelievable, after repeatedly saying no snap election would be held and just last month saying 'now is not the time' for a Scottish Referendum (which was planned after the Brexit deal had been negotiated). She's had almost a year to hold the election, and holds off until just after article 50 has been invoked and the full focus of the government should be on the brexit negotiations.

May be a risky move, not a massive amount of seats changed hands at the last election (especially if Scotland is taken out of the equation):

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32601278

Only 8 seats went Labour to Tory at last election. 29 from Lib Dems. Under FPTP labour can't surely sink much lower, and Lib Dems could potentially gain back some of the seats lost to the Tories at the last election. I hope this backfires spectacularly for May.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I take the point that it has to be handled cannily but I'm not sure the SNP are all that vulnerable. They got 50% of the vote last time but that included most Green voters deciding tactically that under fptp their votes were wasted.

The one thing that would make the SNP vulnerable would be unionist tactical voting but it's difficult to organise that in the context of a UK GE.


Yeah i agree.with this.

Just heard tim farron on radio, i think he makes a lot of sense. Seriously considering giving my vote to lib dems to try and keep us in the single market.

[pacoluna]

[QUOTE=JeMeSouviens;5014406]I take the point that it has to be handled cannily but I'm not sure the SNP are all that vulnerable. They got 50% of the vote last time but that included most Green voters deciding tactically that under fptp their votes were wasted.

The one thing that would make the SNP vulnerable would be unionist tactical voting but it's difficult to organise that in the context of a UK GE.[/QUOTE

Wasn't this the case in Scottish Parliament elections instead of listing SNP as number one and two candidates it would have been tactically astute to list Greens as number 2 to dilute the tories proportional percentage?

[JeMeSouviens]

I take the point that it has to be handled cannily but I'm not sure the SNP are all that vulnerable. They got 50% of the vote last time but that included most Green voters deciding tactically that under fptp their votes were wasted.

The one thing that would make the SNP vulnerable would be unionist tactical voting but it's difficult to organise that in the context of a UK GE.

Wasn't this the case in Scottish Parliament elections instead of listing SNP as number one and two candidates it would have been tactically astute to list Greens as number 2 to dilute the tories proportional percentage?

Holyrood elections have constituency and regional votes. You vote for 1 candidate in the constituency vote and 1 party in the regional vote.

There was an argument to say that given the SNP were going to do well in the constituency section then voting Green in the regional section would increase pro-Indy representation. However the counter-argument was that even denying the SNP a couple of list seats they might have won would deny them a majority government and lead to the sort of Unionist spin about them losing mandate etc.

The reality is that the complexity of the Holyrood additional member system makes it an extremely tricky system to "game" in a tactical way.

[Moulin Yarns]

So if the SNP return same number of MPs then what's changed? If anything if they lose any marginal seats and have less MPs has their position not weakened?

The only real marginal, I think, is

Berwickshire, Roxburgh &Selkirk – majority only 328 over the Tories…..

[Haymaker]

How can I vote? I'm currently living outside the UK

[JeMeSouviens]

The only real marginal, I think, is

Berwickshire, Roxburgh &Selkirk – majority only 328 over the Tories…..



There are a few Tory targets that come into play if the Lab vote collapses to them: Aberdeen S & Aberdeen W, Berwickshire, as you say, and Dumfries & Galloway (not to be confused with Mundell's DCT seat).

Additionally Edinburgh S is a 3 way marginal, Lab/Tory/SNP and Orkney & Shetland is potentially vulnerable to the SNP due to the Carmichael shenanigans last time.

Other than that, not a lot of movement likely.

[Moulin Yarns]

How can I vote? I'm currently living outside the UK

This is for the recent 2015 election

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-residents-overseas-will-be-able-to-vote-in-uks-general-election

[Haymaker]

This is for the recent 2015 election

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-residents-overseas-will-be-able-to-vote-in-uks-general-election

So if it's the same this time I can vote. Cheers!

[pacoluna]

Yeah i agree.with this.

Just heard tim farron on radio, i think he makes a lot of sense. Seriously considering giving my vote to lib dems to try and keep us in the single market.

So Tim Farron, pro-life raging homophobe that would go back into coalition with the tories is the new saviour of the centre,

[pacoluna]

There are a few Tory targets that come into play if the Lab vote collapses to them: Aberdeen S & Aberdeen W, Berwickshire, as you say, and Dumfries & Galloway (not to be confused with Mundell's DCT seat).

Additionally Edinburgh S is a 3 way marginal, Lab/Tory/SNP and Orkney & Shetland is potentially vulnerable to the SNP due to the Carmichael shenanigans last time.

Other than that, not a lot of movement likely.
Most of the SNP constituencies with less than 5000 votes are over the libdems.

[Geo_1875]

There are a few Tory targets that come into play if the Lab vote collapses to them: Aberdeen S & Aberdeen W, Berwickshire, as you say, and Dumfries & Galloway (not to be confused with Mundell's DCT seat).

Additionally Edinburgh S is a 3 way marginal, Lab/Tory/SNP and Orkney & Shetland is potentially vulnerable to the SNP due to the Carmichael shenanigans last time.

Other than that, not a lot of movement likely.

Are there really Labour voters who would think it reasonable to vote Tory rather than SNP? Even though the General Election doesn't deliver independence? That really takes some believing.

[lucky]

Are there really Labour voters who would think it reasonable to vote Tory rather than SNP? Even though the General Election doesn't deliver independence? That really takes some believing.

Never going to happen. I'll vote Labour as always but would vote SNP every time before voting Tory. In fact I can't think any circumstance that I'd consider voting Tory

[snooky]

Blatant opportunism to crush a labour party already on its knees. Also unlikely that the SNP can repeat the high of the last one. Argueably neither would be the case in an election after the hard brexit deal is known. Buys them time to railroad through right wing agenda almost unchallenged.

That's exactly how I see it. Kick 'em when they're down. Not normal Tory philosophy, is it. :rolleyes:

[pacoluna]

So if the SNP return same number of MPs then what's changed? If anything if they lose any marginal seats and have less MPs has their position not weakened?

Reality is it doesn't matter because of the democratic defect.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Reality is it doesn't matter because of the democratic defect.

What about making wsstminster dance to a scottish / snp tune?

[JeMeSouviens]

What about making wsstminster dance to a scottish / snp tune?

That might work in a hung parliament - we're headed for 100+ Tory majority in all probability.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If, as expected, the Tories win the election with an increased majority, that would surely help the SNP and their demand for a second referendum. They could push to the hilt the line of the Westminster government being at odds with the wishes of Scotland, as May goes full steam ahead for Brexit. Labour may lose a fair few seats, meaning the SNP will be better able to argue we need to plough our own furrow.

[G B Young]

It's hard to see how this election will have much bearing in Scotland. With a Labour revival as likely as the SNP abandoning their independence obsession, it'll likely be pretty much as you are here on June 9th. While there's likely to be a strong anti-SNP vote, the first past the post system will ensure the SNP will again win most of the seats thanks to the backing of yes voters. Hard to imagine anything like enough Labour voters defecting to the Tories to make it a straight fight between the pro and anti-independence voters, so the unionist vote will once again be fatally split.

Different story in England one imagines, where you suspect many in the Labour camp will be privately willing to take a pasting if it gets rid of Corbyn.

[Hibbyradge]

Blatant opportunism to crush a labour party already on its knees. Also unlikely that the SNP can repeat the high of the last one. Argueably neither would be the case in an election after the hard brexit deal is known. Buys them time to railroad through right wing agenda almost unchallenged.


Yup and a hypocrite of the highest order, analytically and decisively a dangerous woman.


That's exactly how I see it. Kick 'em when they're down. Not normal Tory philosophy, is it. :rolleyes:

This election announcement has got nothing at all to do with the Labour Party, although it would be a perfectly astute political move if it were. However, it's about Brexit.

Either May wants an increased majority to ensure there are no last minute wobbles as she pushes through a Hard Brexit or, as I suspect (hope), it's to dilute the influence of the right wing of the Tory Party and to dispense with UKIP so she can change her tone and move towards a softer deal with the EU.

She has no need to go for Labour at this time. Not only are they languishing up to 21% behind in the polls, Corbyn continues to be relentlessly incompetent and is actually helping her towards a hard Brexit.

[Hibrandenburg]

Didnt see that coming!

Apparently, the tory right are the most unhappy as a big win dilutes their influence.

How will brexit and indyref2 play in? Fascinating to watch.

A Lib Dem revival standing on an anti-Brexit ticket?

I said this 2 days after the Brexit vote.

1. Puppet to be elected by the tories as PM
2. Puppet will call Snap General Election
3. Party that campaigns on a pro EU ticket will get elected or form coalition with other pro EU parties
4. New government will claim they have a mandate to stay in EUROPE
5. Brexit will be cancelled

[Colr]

Seems bizarre to wait until Brexit negotiations are about to start and now call an election?

Could be resignation I suppose, there have been rumours she hates being PM now she's got there. Or could just be a damp squib ...

Seems sensible. She'll have a clear 5 years to deal with the Brexit mess her party created and hopefully (very hopefully) have a recovering economy by the time she has to go to the country again.

Labour are starting to come up with policies at last some of which are OK if they'd only ditch the soak the rich approach which will put off the middle England vote they need for power. SNP are still strong so Labour are unlikely to revive north of the border.

I think the Liberals will do well in London on an anti-Brexit policy which will take some seats from the Tories but also mkight take some from Labour (such as where I live), so it's not a done deal as I don't think they will have the same impact in the rest of England.

One interesting aspect for Labour is that the Unite union leadership election finishes on 28th April. If McCluskie loses, Corbyn will lose his key backer at a critical time. I doubt, however, that the union will move away from financially supporting a Labour election campaign.

[Hibrandenburg]

But probably too early although due to Brexit they will win back a lot of these seats they lost last time to the Tories.

A lot of folk haven't forgotten 2010.

Not just the Tories but Labour too and maybe they'll give the SNP a few headaches in Scotland too.

[Colr]

I said this 2 days after the Brexit vote.

1. Puppet to be elected by the tories as PM
2. Puppet will call Snap General Election
3. Party that campaigns on a pro EU ticket will get elected or form coalition with other pro EU parties
4. New government will claim they have a mandate to stay in EUROPE
5. Brexit will be cancelled

Would suit me if it didn't include Corbyn and McDonnell.

[JeMeSouviens]

Just saw that Kezia Dugdale launched Labour's local election manifesto today. Her timing's as good as everything else she does. :not worth

[ronaldo7]

This election announcement has got nothing at all to do with the Labour Party, although it would be a perfectly astute political move if it were. However, it's about Brexit.

Either May wants an increased majority to ensure there are no last minute wobbles as she pushes through a Hard Brexit or, as I suspect (hope), it's to dilute the influence of the right wing of the Tory Party and to dispense with UKIP so she can change her tone and move towards a softer deal with the EU.

She has no need to go for Labour at this time. Not only are they languishing up to 21% behind in the polls, Corbyn continues to be relentlessly incompetent and is actually helping her towards a hard Brexit.

Why did Labour jump to her tune?

It takes a two thirds majority on the vote tomorrow to allow a GE to go forward. May has positioned herself to allow an easy ride on the Brexit deal whatever that may be.

I think Corbyn shot from the hip today, and should have put pressure back on May by saying Labour would not be supporting her.

He could have said "Now is not the time", get back to doing the day job.

[ronaldo7]

Are there really Labour voters who would think it reasonable to vote Tory rather than SNP? Even though the General Election doesn't deliver independence? That really takes some believing.

I listened to 5 live today. A lady and her husband were on, and giving it large about supporting Theresa, she then went on to say they were long standing Labour supporters, who then voted UKIP in 2015, but will now support the Tories in June.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I said this 2 days after the Brexit vote.

1. Puppet to be elected by the tories as PM
2. Puppet will call Snap General Election
3. Party that campaigns on a pro EU ticket will get elected or form coalition with other pro EU parties
4. New government will claim they have a mandate to stay in EUROPE
5. Brexit will be cancelled

I think that may be wishful thinking!

Do you libe in germany? How has it / is it being reported there (if at all?)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why did Labour jump to her tune?

It takes a two thirds majority on the vote tomorrow to allow a GE to go forward. May has positioned herself to allow an easy ride on the Brexit deal whatever that may be.

I think Corbyn shot from the hip today, and should have put pressure back on May by saying Labour would not be supporting her.

I was wondering this, bit in reality what kind of oppsition can refuse the chance (from their perspective) to unseat the govt?

Plus he will get rid of a few centreist labour MPs via selection battles.

[ronaldo7]

I was wondering this, bit in reality what kind of oppsition can refuse the chance (from their perspective) to unseat the govt?

Plus he will get rid of a few centreist labour MPs via selection battles.

Are they really in a position to tackle the Tories in full blown election mode? (Fraudulent or otherwise):wink:

I think the English electorate will get rid of a few of his number, he won't have to worry about selection battles.

[ronaldo7]

I see the PM has bottled the TV debates this time round. So much for open democracy, and putting yourself before the public.

https://t.co/4JzHR37oRf

[danhibees1875]

I said this 2 days after the Brexit vote.

1. Puppet to be elected by the tories as PM
2. Puppet will call Snap General Election
3. Party that campaigns on a pro EU ticket will get elected or form coalition with other pro EU parties
4. New government will claim they have a mandate to stay in EUROPE
5. Brexit will be cancelled

Should this not all have happened before article 50 was triggered in that case?

I think it's just as TM has stated, seeking to win her own election so she has a mandate to steer her own course for post-brexit Britain.

[northstandhibby]

I said this 2 days after the Brexit vote.

1. Puppet to be elected by the tories as PM
2. Puppet will call Snap General Election
3. Party that campaigns on a pro EU ticket will get elected or form coalition with other pro EU parties
4. New government will claim they have a mandate to stay in EUROPE
5. Brexit will be cancelled

Great foresight if that does indeed turn out to be the case Hibrandenburg. I too had a few posts forecasting something/anything might just turn up to thwart brexit but nothing near as detailed as your insight on the matter.

:not worth

glory glory

[Jack]

The Torys have a majority of around 12 to 17.

The Tory election expenses scandal could have seen up to 20 seats have a revote in the not to distant future depending on the courts.

Until now not much has been made of this in the media so much of the electorate aren't aware of how serious this is and what a shower of cheating *******s the Torys really are. (Along with all their other 'crimes'!!!!)

I've not heard much mention in the Commons either.

If I was the other parties I'd vote against the snap election tomorrow so that the Tory dishonesty would actually catch up with them in the full glare of the media. I'd use the upcoming Tory election expenses scandal as the reason for doing so. Something along the lines of allowing justice to run its course.

I honestly can't see what the benefit to any of the other parties actually is apart from the Libdems who were slaughtered in the last election.

The SNP already have Scotland tucked up in bed.

Labour astonishingly are backing the Torys (again) tomorrow despite being in disarray and, despite this obviously being all about the EU old Jezza is already wittering on about fighting on a domestic UK ticket, they could well end up in the morgue.

A knock back would leave the Tories having to either have a vote of no confidence in themselves or faff about trying to get the 5 year rule repealed and new legislation introduced.

[Hibrandenburg]

I listened to 5 live today. A lady and her husband were on, and giving it large about supporting Theresa, she then went on to say they were long standing Labour supporters, who then voted UKIP in 2015, but will now support the Tories in June.

Supports my claim that many Labour supporters turned out to be Social Nationalists or something like that :wink:

[lucky]

Labour and the other parties have no choice but to back the snap election. What political party could refuse to face the electorate. There's no doubt this is going to be a hard election for Labour but if the people of the UK want a hard brexit and further austerity then May will deliver it. I hopefully that the media will actually start reporting on Labour policies rather just being anti Corbyn.

There won't be a kill of centrist Labour MPs as candidates as there isn't enough time for infighting. If Labour get hammered then the left will never get the chance to control the party as rules on nominations for the leader will never change. There's a lot at stake in this election a massive Tory win will be the best thing that the SNP could wish for. As many might see independence as the only escape from more austerity and anti worker legislation.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that may be wishful thinking!

Do you libe in germany? How has it / is it being reported there (if at all?)

Germany has other fish to fry. Since the initial Brexit vote UK politics is page 5 news and even that normally has a Scottish Independence angle to the narrative. I suspect it might make some front pages tomorrow but that won't last long.

[ronaldo7]

The Torys have a majority of around 12 to 17.

The Tory election expenses scandal could have seen up to 20 seats have a revote in the not to distant future depending on the courts.

Until now not much has been made of this in the media so much of the electorate aren't aware of how serious this is and what a shower of cheating *******s the Torys really are. (Along with all their other 'crimes'!!!!)

I've not heard much mention in the Commons either.

If I was the other parties I'd vote against the snap election tomorrow so that the Tory dishonesty would actually catch up with them in the full glare of the media. I'd use the upcoming Tory election expenses scandal as the reason for doing so. Something along the lines of allowing justice to run its course.

I honestly can't see what the benefit to any of the other parties actually is apart from the Libdems who were slaughtered in the last election.

The SNP already have Scotland tucked up in bed.

Labour astonishingly are backing the Torys (again) tomorrow despite being in disarray and, despite this obviously being all about the EU old Jezza is already wittering on about fighting on a domestic UK ticket, they could well end up in the morgue.

A knock back would leave the Tories having to either have a vote of no confidence in themselves or faff about trying to get the 5 year rule repealed and new legislation introduced.

Spot on.

They should not be going into an election in the condition they're in.

Meanwhile, Tory election Fraud...https://t.co/99wKNAKT35

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Spot on.

They should not be going into an election in the condition they're in.

Meanwhile, Tory election Fraud...https://t.co/99wKNAKT35

All of the political commentators i have heard on overspending said that rhe other parties are making nothing of it because, they all do it.

It was likened more to the expenses scandal than a partisan thing.

[ronaldo7]

All of the political commentators i have heard on overspending said that rhe other parties are making nothing of it because, they all do it.

It was likened more to the expenses scandal than a partisan thing.

That's why 12 police forces have submitted files to the CPS on 20 MP's and their election agents. If anyone else is at it, they should be dealt with in the same way.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's why 12 police forces have submitted files to the CPS on 20 MP's and their election agents. If anyone else is at it, they should be dealt with in the same way.

Totally agree, im not defending any party.
Just highlighting why some think more hasnt been made of it so far.

[ronaldo7]

Totally agree, im not defending any party.
Just highlighting why some think more hasnt been made of it so far.

:aok:

CPS will be delivering a judgement in the next few days. Charges being considered on 30 individuals.

[Jonnyboy]

Am I right in thinking the last time a Tory PM put his faith in the electorate, he lost his job? :wink:

[Jack]

All of the political commentators i have heard on overspending said that rhe other parties are making nothing of it because, they all do it.

It was likened more to the expenses scandal than a partisan thing.

If that was the case the CPS would be all over them the same way as they are the Torys.

It would appear they have no evidence so it seems all your hearing is Tory Club nonsense.

[mjhibby]

The Torys have a majority of around 12 to 17.

The Tory election expenses scandal could have seen up to 20 seats have a revote in the not to distant future depending on the courts.

Until now not much has been made of this in the media so much of the electorate aren't aware of how serious this is and what a shower of cheating *******s the Torys really are. (Along with all their other 'crimes'!!!!)

I've not heard much mention in the Commons either.

If I was the other parties I'd vote against the snap election tomorrow so that the Tory dishonesty would actually catch up with them in the full glare of the media. I'd use the upcoming Tory election expenses scandal as the reason for doing so. Something along the lines of allowing justice to run its course.

I honestly can't see what the benefit to any of the other parties actually is apart from the Libdems who were slaughtered in the last election.

The SNP already have Scotland tucked up in bed.

Labour astonishingly are backing the Torys (again) tomorrow despite being in disarray and, despite this obviously being all about the EU old Jezza is already wittering on about fighting on a domestic UK ticket, they could well end up in the morgue.

A knock back would leave the Tories having to either have a vote of no confidence in themselves or faff about trying to get the 5 year rule repealed and new legislation introduced.

If labour votes for the election it's like turkeys voting for xmas. A shameful cut and run because of the opinion polls and the state of labour under corbyn. Can only see the Tories increasing their majority although we can live in the slim hope of the polls being wildly wrong which in fairness they have been several times recently. The only way they won't increase the majority is if,for a one off, middle England gives ukip their vote so she can't go back on brexit. So cynical from the tories but they have always put party before the country.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If that was the case the CPS would be all over them the same way as they are the Torys.

It would appear they have no evidence so it seems all your hearing is Tory Club nonsense.

Oops, i see the natbots are out tonight...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

If labour votes for the election it's like turkeys voting for xmas. A shameful cut and run because of the opinion polls and the state of labour under corbyn. Can only see the Tories increasing their majority although we can live in the slim hope of the polls being wildly wrong which in fairness they have been several times recently. The only way they won't increase the majority is if,for a one off, middle England gives ukip their vote so she can't go back on brexit. So cynical from the tories but they have always put party before the country.

I agree its cynical, but every party puts its interests above the country's. Thats politics.

Remember Gordon Brown agonising over the polls when deciding whether or not to have an election, and i seem to remember the SNP siding with the tories to bring down a labour govt.

As Jamie in The Thick of It says, "we're all in the same plague pit"

[Swedish hibee]

So if the SNP lose some seats what does that say about an indy ref 2?

[Slavoj Zizek]

A lot of squeaky bums in Bute House today. They never saw this coming. Mrs. May outfoxed everyone. Six weeks to cobble an SNP manifesto together will it be based on brexit, indy, austerity or gender politics. No one knows. Good Luck. #FiveMoreYears. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

A lot of squeaky bums in Bute House today. They never saw this coming. Mrs. May outfoxed everyone. Six weeks to cobble an SNP manifesto together will it be based on brexit, indy, austerity or gender politics. No one knows. Good Luck. #FiveMoreYears. :greengrin

By "out foxed" you mean lied too.

[Slavoj Zizek]

If that was the case the CPS would be all over them the same way as they are the Torys.

It would appear they have no evidence so it seems all your hearing is Tory Club nonsense.

Tell us what you think. Or are you waiting to be told what to think by their cobbled together Snap Election manifesto. Spolier alert: They ****ed up.

[ronaldo7]

So if the SNP lose some seats what does that say about an indy ref 2?

They already have that mandate in their back pocket.

I can see more and more folk turning this way. Time will tell.

https://t.co/MWkpfDptjB

From the article,

Let us take May’s lead. She seeks to use a General Election as a mandate for hard Brexit. Let us use it as a mandate for independence. Let us say a vote for an independence party in June IS a vote, not for another doomed referendum request, but for national independence.

[Slavoj Zizek]

By "out foxed" you mean lied too.

LOL. Forgot this was an echo chamber, by out foxed we mean being a shrewd and considerate politican. Any statement from Nicola yet or any manifesto pledges. Lab, Lib-Dem, Con, UKIP et al have all announced basic pledges. Some of us are better off under the Tories but at least we have the balls to admit it. #fivemoreyears

[Scorrie]

That might work in a hung parliament - we're headed for 100+ Tory majority in all probability.

I'm not totally convinced that will happen. There are a lot of voters in england who voted remain and the Lib Dems could get their votes. A lot of these are in Tory Lib Dem marginals where the majority voted remain. The tories could be vulnerable to these. The Lib Dems could do very well in this election...

[northstandhibby]

If labour votes for the election it's like turkeys voting for xmas. A shameful cut and run because of the opinion polls and the state of labour under corbyn. Can only see the Tories increasing their majority although we can live in the slim hope of the polls being wildly wrong which in fairness they have been several times recently. The only way they won't increase the majority is if,for a one off, middle England gives ukip their vote so she can't go back on brexit. So cynical from the tories but they have always put party before the country.

I agree of course it's political opportunism but then equally so were the SNP using brexit as an excuse to announce another indy ref just a few years after a decisive No vote and declaring the vote was a 'once in a generation' event.

Politics is all about strategy and timing.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

So if the SNP lose some seats what does that say about an indy ref 2?

I think it would only constitute a message to the nats if they lost either / or a lot of seats or big share of the vote.

Cant see either happening. I think they are likely to drop a few seats or votes, its almost an inevitable consequemce of being as high as they currently are.

But i dont see this election sending any decisive messages about indy.

[Mon Dieu4]

LOL. Forgot this was an echo chamber, by out foxed we mean being a shrewd and considerate politican. Any statement from Nicola yet or any manifesto pledges. Lab, Lib-Dem, Con, UKIP et al have all announced basic pledges. Some of us are better off under the Tories but at least we have the balls to admit it. #fivemoreyears

Some people are better off under the Tories, that's the problem, those kind of people only tend care about themselves

[Hibernia&Alba]

LOL. Forgot this was an echo chamber, by out foxed we mean being a shrewd and considerate politican. Any statement from Nicola yet or any manifesto pledges. Lab, Lib-Dem, Con, UKIP et al have all announced basic pledges. Some of us are better off under the Tories but at least we have the balls to admit it. #fivemoreyears

That's a bizarre statement from someone using the name Slavoj Zizek. He would not be amused :greengrin

[Colr]

Corbyn seems to have missed an opportunity here. Why doesn't he just get his party to abstain leaving May seeming rather foolish and having to call a vote of no confidence in her own government.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Corbyn seems to have missed an opportunity here. Why doesn't he just get his party to abstain leaving May seeming rather foolish and having to call a vote of no confidence in her own government.

Good point.

[mjhibby]

I agree its cynical, but every party puts its interests above the country's. Thats politics.

Remember Gordon Brown agonising over the polls when deciding whether or not to have an election, and i seem to remember the SNP siding with the tories to bring down a labour govt.

As Jamie in The Thick of It says, "we're all in the same plague pit"

Indeed the snp helped tbw Thatcher get in by backing a vote of no confidence in Callaghan's govt. The snp have nothing to gain in this snap election and is an irritation more than anything. Yet again people will be asked to vote on something nobody has a clue how it will pan out. A total and utter seven weeks of waffle and hyperbole will now ensue with only the politicians and the party workers remotely interested. This will now be three elections and two referendums in seven years(obviously just one outside scotland) and many folk are way past fed up with it already as it's as clear as mud what the future holds.

[weecounty hibby]

The most bizarre part of it is where he called May a considerate politician. What a joke. The only person any Tory ever considers is themselves or perhaps their chums. She should just have done the same as Erdogun in Turkey go full ahead for a referendum to keep the Tories in power till 2030. She probably would win it at the moment. Worrying times for the UK I would suggest. It is just a pity that we are a part of it

[mjhibby]

Corbyn seems to have missed an opportunity here. Why doesn't he just get his party to abstain leaving May seeming rather foolish and having to call a vote of no confidence in her own government.

Interesting thought but way beyond the corbynistas. I'm sure all the labour mps in marginals will be dreading the next seven weeks.

[Swedish hibee]

I think it would only constitute a message to the nats if they lost either / or a lot of seats or big share of the vote.

Cant see either happening. I think they are likely to drop a few seats or votes, its almost an inevitable consequemce of being as high as they currently are.

But i dont see this election sending any decisive messages about indy.

I get what your saying. Thanks for the reply.
What I can't believe is that over a million folk in Scotland voted for Brexit despite not one party representing them in your Scottish parliament.
So where do all those votes go now? Surely they can't all be tories... I'm very curious to see how Scotland votes in June!!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Interesting thought but way beyond the corbynistas. I'm sure all the labour mps in marginals will be dreading the next seven weeks.

In the first past the post election for Westminster, it's only the marginals that matter. The vast majority of seats rarely change hands; it's seventy to eighty marginals, mainly in areas like the midlands, that decide the whole thing. The SNP taking all those Labour seats in Scotland is a massive blow to their chances in any future general election.

[Jack]

Tell us what you think. Or are you waiting to be told what to think by their cobbled together Snap Election manifesto. Spolier alert: They ****ed up.

*I think given there's been nothing at a similar level tainting the other parties in the UK elections the issues surrounding the Tory Party are worthy of debate as a plausible reason for this election being called. The Torys were in danger of losing their majority mix term. Had they done so their punitive policies and hard Brexit would have been bombed out.

Their unprecedented maximum fine from the Electoral Commission and police forces around England ready to pounce an illustration of just how dishonest they are.

The crap May spewed this morning for the reasons of this election another example of the lies we've been subjected to by politicians in recent times.

* I am aware other parties have been fined by the Electoral Commission for lesser offences and also that UKIP are currently under investigation by the European Parliament equivalents.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The most bizarre part of it is where he called May a considerate politician. What a joke. The only person any Tory ever considers is themselves or perhaps their chums. She should just have done the same as Erdogun in Turkey go full ahead for a referendum to keep the Tories in power till 2030. She probably would win it at the moment. Worrying times for the UK I would suggest. It is just a pity that we are a part of it


What sanctimonious drivel.

I hadnt realised that politics was so benevolent and altruistic, apart from those nasty tories of course.

The worrying thing is people like you avtually believe this nonsense.

Its no wonder thr left in this country is so washed-up and useless, when they still believe that they habe some monopoly on moralism.

Poor stuff.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I get what your saying. Thanks for the reply.
What I can't believe is that over a million folk in Scotland voted for Brexit despite not one party representing them in your Scottish parliament.
So where do all those votes go now? Surely they can't all be tories... I'm very curious to see how Scotland votes in June!!

Its a good question, amd this election is like no other i can recall becausr of all these unprecedented sub-plots.

Psephologists have had a hard enough time lately without adding all of thesr variables into the mix.

It will be fascinating to watch, although i think scotland could actually be one of the less interesting elements.

Also, haven't seen anyone throw in the fact that we still dont habe a government in NI, dunno how this will affect that situation. Just another variable.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

*I think given there's been nothing at a similar level tainting the other parties in the UK elections the issues surrounding the Tory Party are worthy of debate as a plausible reason for this election being called. The Torys were in danger of losing their majority mix term. Had they done so their punitive policies and hard Brexit would have been bombed out.

Their unprecedented maximum fine from the Electoral Commission and police forces around England ready to pounce an illustration of just how dishonest they are.

The crap May spewed this morning for the reasons of this election another example of the lies we've been subjected to by politicians in recent times.

* I am aware other parties have been fined by the Electoral Commission for lesser offences and also that UKIP are currently under investigation by the European Parliament equivalents.

What was it natalie mcgarry did again? Also a nat councillor in the highlands maybe, who, funnily enough now runs a lobbying business with mrs angus robertson that boasts of having the best 'black book' in scottish politics.

Like i said, all in the same plague pit.

[Hibernia&Alba]

What sanctimonious drivel.

I hadnt realised that politics was so benevolent and altruistic, apart from those nasty tories of course.

The worrying thing is people like you avtually believe this nonsense.

Its no wonder thr left in this country is so washed-up and useless, when they still believe that they habe some monopoly on moralism.

Poor stuff.

There is some truth in what he says. The effects of almost a decade of austerity are clear for all to see; for example, the explosion in homelessness around the UK. If someone chooses income tax cuts over tackling these very real problems, they are nailing their colours to the mast: it's me first, the rest of the world last. It isn't credible to claim to care, yet vote for policies that make the situation worse. We have to walk the walk.

[Colr]

Indeed the snp helped tbw Thatcher get in by backing a vote of no confidence in Callaghan's govt. The snp have nothing to gain in this snap election and is an irritation more than anything. Yet again people will be asked to vote on something nobody has a clue how it will pan out. A total and utter seven weeks of waffle and hyperbole will now ensue with only the politicians and the party workers remotely interested. This will now be three elections and two referendums in seven years(obviously just one outside scotland) and many folk are way past fed up with it already as it's as clear as mud what the future holds.

England has council elections in the first week of May as well.

[Jack]

Oops, i see the natbots are out tonight...

A good point well made. A question badly dingied.

It might have been even a better jibe if I actually was a SNP member or in any other way affiliated to them.

I assume you think the CPS is full of natbots too?

Is there any evidence to suggest that the other parties were as dishonest as the Torys during the last election?

Anything that the CPS could use?

Or are you a Tory wannabe fantasist?

[northstandhibby]

There is some truth in what he says. The effects of almost a decade of austerity are clear for all to see; for example, the explosion in homelessness around the UK. If someone chooses income tax cuts over tackling these very real problems, they are nailing their colours to the mast: it's me first, the rest of the world last. It isn't credible to claim to care, yet vote for policies that make the situation worse. We have to walk the walk.

Your economic model would have businesses, investment and wealth creators charging out of Scotland as fast as they possibly could and as a consequence there would be very little money left in the pot to go around.

I pray to god no-one like you ever gets their hands on the economic levers as you'd have everyone in the same boat right enough the boat called poverty.

There's a middle ground to be fought for, one between the extreme right and extreme left.

glory glory

[pacoluna]

Tell us what you think. Or are you waiting to be told what to think by their cobbled together Snap Election manifesto. Spolier alert: They ****ed up.

You come across as spiteful due to the fact Scotland's electoral persuasion doesn't line up with your political views. SNP 3rd term in office 54 MPs in WM... But aye we are all sheep.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There is some truth in what he says. The effects of almost a decade of austerity are clear for all to see; for example, the explosion in homelessness around the UK. If someone chooses income tax cuts over tackling these very real problems, they are nailing their colours to the mast: it's me first, the rest of the world last. It isn't credible to claim to care, yet vote for policies that make the situation worse. We have to walk the walk.

If this is the case, then surely people who live off benefits or work in the public sector voting for a party that will give them more is just as selfish?

Nobody, or very few people, go into politics not hoping, to some degree or another, to make the country better.

Now of course there are profound disagreements over how best to achieve this, but the aim is the same.

Consider that, in the last indyref, the polling for yes changed hugely when pollsters added in that scots would be 500 better or worse off after indy.

Politics is about interests, the left just confuse their interests with something that is inherently morally superior. Which is perhaps one of the reasons that they have struggled to get elected for around forty years.

[Hibrandenburg]

LOL. Forgot this was an echo chamber, by out foxed we mean being a shrewd and considerate politican. Any statement from Nicola yet or any manifesto pledges. Lab, Lib-Dem, Con, UKIP et al have all announced basic pledges. Some of us are better off under the Tories but at least we have the balls to admit it. #fivemoreyears

So she wasn't lying when she said "there will be no snap election"?

[pacoluna]

If this is the case, then surely people who live off benefits or work in the public sector voting for a party that will give them more is just as selfish?

Nobody, or very few people, go into politics not hoping, to some degree or another, to make the country better.

Now of course there are profound disagreements over how best to achieve this, but the aim is the same.

Consider that, in the last indyref, the polling for yes changed hugely when pollsters added in that scots would be 500 better or worse off after indy.

Politics is about interests, the left just confuse their interests with something that is inherently morally superior. Which is perhaps one of the reasons that they have struggled to get elected for around forty years.

Certainly not the Scottish electorate your talking about then.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A good point well made. A question badly dingied.

It might have been even a better jibe if I actually was a SNP member or in any other way affiliated to them.

I assume you think the CPS is full of natbots too?

Is there any evidence to suggest that the other parties were as dishonest as the Torys during the last election?

Anything that the CPS could use?

Or are you a Tory wannabe fantasist?

No, im not disputing that the tories have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, see my earlier convo with ronaldo. Im not defending them in the slightest.

Im suggesting that corruption, malfeasance, etc are not unique to, or limited to the tories.

See my other post about some of the impropriety that the SNP have been linked with in the recent past. Amd that didnt even mention domestic abuse.

Such things happen to all parties.

[Moulin Yarns]

I hope my calendar is right.

June is the end of May.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Your economic model would have businesses, investment and wealth creators charging out of Scotland as fast as they possibly could and as a consequence there would be very little money left in the pot to go around.

I pray to god no-one like you ever gets their hands on the economic levers as you'd have everyone in the same boat right enough the boat called poverty.

There's a middle ground to be fought for, one between the extreme right and extreme left.

glory glory

The wealth creators are those who do the work and make the profits. It's hardly radical to say that those who create the wealth should share it. 'My' economic model created full employment, a welfare state, a National Health Service, universal free education, slum clearance and massive house building - all done with a progressive taxation system that created opportunity and social mobility for all. 'My' economic model works much better than the lie of trickle down theory, which is a mask for naked greed. As for those who say they would leave if the country returned to those values, there's the door. You're free to go.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Certainly not the Scottish electorate your talking about then.

No, although the labour/lib coalitions and the SNP are more blairite than corbynist i would suggest. Which to many labour members these days, apparently makes you right wing!

[northstandhibby]

The wealth creators are those who do the work and make the profits. It's hardly radical to say that those who create the wealth should share it. 'My' economic model created full employment, a welfare state, a National Health Service, universal free education, slum clearance and massive house building - all done with a progressive taxation system that created opportunity and social mobility for all. 'My' economic model works much better than the lie of trickle down theory, which is a mask for naked greed. As for those who say they would leave if the country returned to those values, there's the door. You're free to go.

I'm sure the workers you rightly applaud would thank you for stripping them of 80% or more of their gross pay packets that you've advocated on more than one occasion. Strikes would occur on a grand scale.

glory glory

[Hibernia&Alba]

If this is the case, then surely people who live off benefits or work in the public sector voting for a party that will give them more is just as selfish?

Nobody, or very few people, go into politics not hoping, to some degree or another, to make the country better.

Now of course there are profound disagreements over how best to achieve this, but the aim is the same.

Consider that, in the last indyref, the polling for yes changed hugely when pollsters added in that scots would be 500 better or worse off after indy.

Politics is about interests, the left just confuse their interests with something that is inherently morally superior. Which is perhaps one of the reasons that they have struggled to get elected for around forty years.

Point one - I disagree. It's easy to be cynical, but I think there are politicians who want to make society better. It isn't all motivated by power.

Point two - The aims are not the same. If that were true, there would be no point discussing the issues and having parties that represent different ideas. New Labour (and I think the SNP) may have bought into the idea that the aim is about who can manage monetarism the best, but there are millions who have been hurt by those policies and want an alternative. Democracy requires different ideas.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm sure the workers you rightly applaud would thank you for stripping them of 80% or more of their gross pay packets that you've advocated on more than one occasion. Strikes would occur on a grand scale.

glory glory

I have never advocated that. I do advocate progressive income tax - top earners to pay a marginal rate of 80% or so, certainly, but not the average wage earner. This isn't new or radical. Remember, The Beatles paid 98% top marginal rate. You know George Harrison's Taxman :greengrin. It was quite right they did, too.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Point one - I disagree. It's easy to be cynical, but I think there are politicians who want to make society better. It isn't all motivated by power.

Point two - The aims are not the same. If that were true, there would be no point discussing the issues and having parties that represent different ideas. New Labour (and I think the SNP) may have bought into the idea that the aim is about who can manage monetarism the best, but there are millions who have been hurt by those policies and want an alternative. Democracy requires different ideas.


I think on point one we agree. I just worded it very inarticulately - apologies.

On point two, the aim is to improve society, make the country healthier, safer, richer etc

How that is achieved, is obviously very much up for debate! Monetarism, socialism etc are all theories of how to 'make society better'

[northstandhibby]

I have never advocated that. I do advocate progressive income tax - top earners to pay a marginal rate of 80% or so, certainly, but not the average wage earner. This isn't new or radical. Remember, The Beatles paid 98% top marginal rate. You know George Harrison's Taxman :greengrin. It was quite right they did, too.

Fair enough.

You don't half scare folk though with your Joseph Stalin impressions :greengrin

glory glory

[weecounty hibby]

What sanctimonious drivel.

I hadnt realised that politics was so benevolent and altruistic, apart from those nasty tories of course.

The worrying thing is people like you avtually believe this nonsense.

Its no wonder thr left in this country is so washed-up and useless, when they still believe that they habe some monopoly on moralism.

Poor stuff.
Examples please of her being considerate. Perhaps the rape clause?
Of course I don't believe only the Tories look after themselves but they certainly don't look after the poorest as well as they do the upper classes/rich. It was a generalism much like saying that the left think they have all the morals!!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Fair enough.

You don't half scare folk though with your Joseph Stalin impressions :greengrin

glory glory

My views are anything but Stalinist. I'm for democratic control of all areas of society, whereas state communism and free market capitalism undermine democracy. You can't have political liberty where there's economic tyranny. The working person who can have their ability to eat and keep a roof over their head removed at the whim of an employer/market forces isn't free. He/she must submit or risk losing everything. Monetarist fundamentalism of the most extreme kind, the Ayn Rands, Reagans and Thatchers, is incompatible with democracy; it's corporate tyranny. If opposing the consequences of market forces makes me extreme, then okay, but I don't think economic transactions are the fundamental building blocks of society.

[northstandhibby]

My views are anything but Stalinist. I'm for democratic control of all areas of society, whereas state communism and free market capitalism undermine democracy. You can't have political liberty where there's economic tyranny. The working person who can have their ability to eat and keep a roof over their head removed at the whim of an employer/market forces isn't free. He/she must submit or risk losing everything. Monetarist fundamentalism of the most extreme kind, the Ayn Rands, Reagans and Thatchers, is incompatible with democracy; it's corporate tyranny. If opposing the consequences of market forces makes me extreme, then okay, but I don't think economic transactions are the fundamental building blocks of society.

If your'e not for folk being able to trade their skills in exchange for money in as open and wide a market place as possible what exactly are you advocating?

glory glory

[johnbc70]

I have never advocated that. I do advocate progressive income tax - top earners to pay a marginal rate of 80% or so, certainly, but not the average wage earner. This isn't new or radical. Remember, The Beatles paid 98% top marginal rate. You know George Harrison's Taxman :greengrin. It was quite right they did, too.

80%! Are you serious.

How many folk earning the amount that puts them in that bracket will still be working in Scotland, very few I would suggest.

[CropleyWasGod]

I have never advocated that. I do advocate progressive income tax - top earners to pay a marginal rate of 80% or so, certainly, but not the average wage earner. This isn't new or radical. Remember, The Beatles paid 98% top marginal rate. You know George Harrison's Taxman :greengrin. It was quite right they did, too.
The 98% is an often-misquoted misunderstanding.

The top rate at the time was 83% on earned income. In addition, there was a 15% surcharge on "unearned income". In other words, the 98% was only charged on the top slice of investment income.

Still pretty brutal, though. The effect was to persuade many of the top earners to leave the country.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

If your'e not for folk being able to trade their skills in exchange for money in as open and wide a market place as possible what exactly are you advocating?

glory glory

Collective democratic ownership of workplaces: those who do the work deciding what is produced, when and how; all changes voted upon and agreed. You could still have a money system to distribute output, but all income would be distributed as equitably as possible: no shareholders demanding profit maximisation, and no enormous disparity in come between boardroom and shop floor. Those who do the work are the boardroom and decisions are democratic, not diktats. You can call it syndicalism, or give it any fancy name you like, but fundamentally it means money returns to being only a means of exchange, as it was originally designed, and not an end in itself. The link between an employee and the profit derived from their labour is broken, so chasing money as an end in itself it's now pointless; there's no return. It's absolutely true that money is the root of all evil: wars, prostitution, human trafficking, environmental exploitation, drug pushing; you name it, it's all driven by greed. Human beings literally kill for it, yet it's a man made commodity, not a force of nature, which means it's within our control. What we need to get away from, IMHO, is the idea that the economy is somehow separate from ourselves, when in fact it is ourselves. We should make the outcomes we wish to create the centre of human activity. At the moment we act as if there is autonomous thing called the economy which controls us and decides who should be on the streets and who should go to food banks; but that just isn't true. As a society we have decided that's how it should be. We needn't think there is a thing called money/the economy which says there must be homelessness, for example. It's a man made thing, the utility of which can be changed.

There are some very good scholarly books, and you needn't go back to Marx. Paul Mason's Postcapitalism is very interesting.

[Hibernia&Alba]

80%! Are you serious.

How many folk earning the amount that puts them in that bracket will still be working in Scotland, very few I would suggest.

Aye, so they wouldn't pay it then. Only those earning above the threshold where 80% kicks in would.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The 98% is an often-misquoted misunderstanding.

The top rate at the time was 83% on earned income. In addition, there was a 15% surcharge on "unearned income". In other words, the 98% was only charged on the top slice of investment income.

Still pretty brutal, though. The effect was to persuade many of the top earners to leave the country.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

But then you get into the race to the bottom, which is the wet dream of the advocates of globalisation. We must compete with China, India etc. As a society we don't have to play that game. There are many countries that have higher income tax rates than the UK, because they believe in a more collective society whereby people are citizens and not customers.

[CropleyWasGod]

But then you get into the race to the bottom, which is the wet dream of the advocates of globalisation. We must compete with China, India etc. As a society we don't have to play that game. There are many countries that have higher income tax rates than the UK, because they believe in a more collective society whereby people are citizens and not customers.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but people are much more able to migrate these days. The effects on the workforce (and hence the tax take) of high tax rates might be more substantial than they were back in the 60s.

Another point, which people often overlook when comparing countries' tax rates, is that we effectively have 2 forms of directly taxing employees, PAYE and NI. Not all countries do that; they have a unified system. In that light, our basic rate of tax is actually 32%. That's the figure to be used when making comparisons with others, and should be the benchmark for those planning independence.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Scorrie]

My views are anything but Stalinist. I'm for democratic control of all areas of society, whereas state communism and free market capitalism undermine democracy. You can't have political liberty where there's economic tyranny. The working person who can have their ability to eat and keep a roof over their head removed at the whim of an employer/market forces isn't free. He/she must submit or risk losing everything. Monetarist fundamentalism of the most extreme kind, the Ayn Rands, Reagans and Thatchers, is incompatible with democracy; it's corporate tyranny. If opposing the consequences of market forces makes me extreme, then okay, but I don't think economic transactions are the fundamental building blocks of society.

You've got my vote!

[johnbc70]

Aye, so they wouldn't pay it then. Only those earning above the threshold where 80% kicks in would.

Which would be nobody because they will all have moved to another country. 40% of something is better than 80% of nothing.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Which would be nobody because they will all have moved to another country. 40% of something is better than 80% of nothing.

Yeah meanwhile some bureaucrats, party officials and such like bend the rules just a little to benefit a friend of relative, then someone else does too, and before long, a whole new class of privileged, connected elites is created. And their children get a slightly better start in life, amd thenwhole cycle starts again, just with different names and faces at the top.

Fundamentally i think people are competitive, and will always strive for the best for them and their family. Ita an evolutionary thing imo, hard wired into us, and i dont believe you can legislate away human nature.

[Slavers]

No person in their right mind would live in a country that taxes their hard earned money 80%. Where is the incentive to achieve anything if the government takes most of your money then wastes it?

Bonkers to suggest this for an independent Scotland.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No person in their right mind would live in a country that taxes their hard earned money 80%. Where is the incentive to achieve anything if the government takes most of your money then wastes it?

Bonkers to suggest this for an independent Scotland.

I ser today even McDonnell and Corbyn saying they want a fair taxatiob system, and so wont increase the tax burden on people. Even the socialists seem to be abandoning the old war cry of tax the rich.

[northstandhibby]

I ser today even McDonnell and Corbyn saying they want a fair taxatiob system, and so wont increase the tax burden on people. Even the socialists seem to be abandoning the old war cry of tax the rich.

Exactly.

Save for the hardline SNP and fellow Stasi/Communists types who would take down not only the rich but have all of us working for nothing for the Big Brother state.

Fair and balanced taxation with room for those that work hard to be rewarded while at the same time protecting the vulnerable. There's already these systems in place, sure there's always room for improvement but lets leave out the impractical ideology of folk working like slaves for the state while those in charge would reward themselves and their comrades only.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly.

Save for the hardline SNP and fellow Stasi/Communists types who would take down not only the rich but have all of us working for nothing for the Big Brother state.

Fair and balanced taxation with room for those that work hard to be rewarded while at the same time protecting the vulnerable. There's already these systems in place, sure there's always room for improvement but lets leave out the impractical ideology of folk working like slaves for the state while those in charge would reward themselves and their comrades only.

glory glory

:rolleyes::blah::yawn::brickwall

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Exactly.

Save for the hardline SNP and fellow Stasi/Communists types who would take down not only the rich but have all of us working for nothing for the Big Brother state.

Fair and balanced taxation with room for those that work hard to be rewarded while at the same time protecting the vulnerable. There's already these systems in place, sure there's always room for improvement but lets leave out the impractical ideology of folk working like slaves for the state while those in charge would reward themselves and their comrades only.

glory glory

I would defend the SNP a bit on this. I dont think the most visible nationalist / socialists (not in THAT way...) on this board are very representative of SNP supporters, or the party generally, certainly pre-sturgeon.

The surge in SNP support post 2014 has meant a lot of hitherto labour folk switched to the SNP, amd have been projecting their hopes / ideals onto the SNP, who of course are happy to let them.

The SNP under salmond were very centreist, amd actually a wee bit populist when it suited them. They had a few senior members of that govt who i would even put on the right of centre.

Even as the language from Sturgeon has shifted, amd she has moved her best minister (and long time rival) Swinney away from finance, she still has not dared to significantly raise taxes, rather she refused to pass on the UK govt cut.

So whilr i do think sturgeon is a lefty (but a nationalist first) large swathes of her party are not. I got lambasted a few weeks ago for suggesting that in a post indy Scotland, lots of SNP supporters amd politicians would be attracted to a new right of centre party.

They may change undr sturgeon, but at its heart i still think many in the SNP are small 'c' conservative, and nationalist (in the sense that they want scottiah people to have their country back, and emd English domination).

Thats obviously not a popular view on here as many of the recent left converts to nationalism struggle to reconcile their position as nationalists.

[Moulin Yarns]

Caroline Lucas has asked for 16 and 17 year olds be given the vote.

I won't hold my breath, the Tories will prefer the old guard to the fresh face of youth.

[Mon Dieu4]

I ser today even McDonnell and Corbyn saying they want a fair taxatiob system, and so wont increase the tax burden on people. Even the socialists seem to be abandoning the old war cry of tax the rich.

They said they want a fair taxation system, did they say what it was? To them a fair taxation system might be taxing the rich even more

[Slavers]

Caroline Lucas has asked for 16 and 17 year olds be given the vote.

I won't hold my breath, the Tories will prefer the old guard to the fresh face of youth.

Nothing beats life experience!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

They said they want a fair taxation system, did they say what it was? To them a fair taxation system might be taxing the rich even more

He explicitly ruled that out, suggesting it wouldnt be fair.

Instead wants to focus on reducing avoidance etc

Also defined the rich as earning more than 70-80k

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Caroline Lucas has asked for 16 and 17 year olds be given the vote.

I won't hold my breath, the Tories will prefer the old guard to the fresh face of youth.

A cynical electoral ploy from the Greens.

No way man, thats fair put me off my lentils...

[northstandhibby]

I would defend the SNP a bit on this. I dont think the most visible nationalist / socialists (not in THAT way...) on this board are very representative of SNP supporters, or the party generally, certainly pre-sturgeon.

The surge in SNP support post 2014 has meant a lot of hitherto labour folk switched to the SNP, amd have been projecting their hopes / ideals onto the SNP, who of course are happy to let them.

The SNP under salmond were very centreist, amd actually a wee bit populist when it suited them. They had a few senior members of that govt who i would even put on the right of centre.

Even as the language from Sturgeon has shifted, amd she has moved her best minister (and long time rival) Swinney away from finance, she still has not dared to significantly raise taxes, rather she refused to pass on the UK govt cut.

So whilr i do think sturgeon is a lefty (but a nationalist first) large swathes of her party are not. I got lambasted a few weeks ago for suggesting that in a post indy Scotland, lots of SNP supporters amd politicians would be attracted to a new right of centre party

They may change undr sturgeon, but at its heart i still think many in the SNP are small 'c' conservative, and nationalist (in the sense that they want scottiah people to have their country back, and emd English domination).

Thats obviously not a popular view on here as many of the recent left converts to nationalism struggle to reconcile their position as nationalists.

Perfectly rational points you make.

I should have made clearer I was referring to a section of the what appears to be the most vocal element of their party. I certainly wasn't referring to each and every SNP member. There does though appear to be a very loud extreme fringe of their party.

I would also strongly criticise the extreme right of whom I've done so on here previously.

Middle ground for me.

glory glory

[northstandhibby]

Caroline Lucas has asked for 16 and 17 year olds be given the vote.

I won't hold my breath, the Tories will prefer the old guard to the fresh face of youth.

A more cynical ploy to over-ride folks votes with life experiences I've yet to come across.

glory glory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Perfectly rational points you make.

I should have made clearer I was referring to a section of the what appears to be the most vocal element of their party. I certainly wasn't referring to each and every SNP member. There does though appear to be a very loud extreme fringe of their party.

I would also strongly criticise the extreme right of whom I've done so on here previously.

Middle ground for me.

glory glory

I think above all, the SNP machine has a relentless focus on indy, and lets nothing, certainly not ideology muddy that vision. Imo it is that clarity of vision, as well as the unmatched electoral machine that mr sturgeon and others habe built behind the scenes, that makes the SNP such a political phenomenon. They are brilliantly effective, organised amd of course habe been very well financed.

[CropleyWasGod]

A more cynical ploy to over-ride folks votes with life experiences I've yet to come across.

glory glory

This is probably one for a separate thread, but we allow people to

Drive
Have sex
Get married
Join the armed forces
Pay tax

before we allow them to vote.

There's an unfairness in there for me.

[northstandhibby]

I think above all, the SNP machine has a relentless focus on indy, and lets nothing, certainly not ideology muddy that vision. Imo it is that clarity of vision, as well as the unmatched electoral machine that mr sturgeon and others habe built behind the scenes, that makes the SNP such a political phenomenon. They are brilliantly effective, organised amd of course habe been very well financed.

I disagree with you on this.

The singular reason the SNP have taken over the political landscape is the collapse of the Labour Party of which the damage was done mainly at a national level and Blair was the main culprit.

Even merely just a competent middle/left of center opposition would show up the SNP's extraordinary lack of talent in their ranks. Labours unfortunate demise has been the singular factor in the rise of what is a pretty ordinary, mostly incompetent and not fit for purpose set of SNP 'politicians'.

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

Result of vote on Early Election

Ayes to the right 522

Nos to the left 13

[Peevemor]

This is probably one for a separate thread, but we allow people to

Drive
Have sex
Get married
Join the armed forces
Pay tax

before we allow them to vote.

There's an unfairness in there for me.

Especially the 2 in bold.

[northstandhibby]

This is probably one for a separate thread, but we allow people to

Drive
Have sex
Get married
Join the armed forces
Pay tax

before we allow them to vote.

There's an unfairness in there for me.

I think the youngsters should be allowed to live a little before they decide on their chosen government.

glory glory

[pacoluna]

I disagree with you on this.

The singular reason the SNP have taken over the political landscape is the collapse of the Labour Party of which the damage was done mainly at a national level and Blair was the main culprit.

Even merely just a competent middle/left of center opposition would show up the SNP's extraordinary lack of talent in their ranks. Labours unfortunate demise has been the singular factor in the rise of what is a pretty ordinary, mostly incompetent and not fit for purpose set of SNP 'politicians'.

glory glory

why is the level of political engagement within younger voters never mentioned. Is it because we are all tagged as been sheep?

Ask any 16-25 year old who they will be voting.. there is no doubt what the majority response will be. Also ask them if they identify themselves as Scottish or British.

I have personally never seen anything united about United Kingdom and have lived through an era of austerity and a Tory government that we do not want.

We want change and we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think the youngsters should be allowed to live a little before they decide on their chosen government.

glory glory

Yet you'll take their tax?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I disagree with you on this.

The singular reason the SNP have taken over the political landscape is the collapse of the Labour Party of which the damage was done mainly at a national level and Blair was the main culprit.

Even merely just a competent middle/left of center opposition would show up the SNP's extraordinary lack of talent in their ranks. Labours unfortunate demise has been the singular factor in the rise of what is a pretty ordinary, mostly incompetent and not fit for purpose set of SNP 'politicians'.

glory glory

I disagree, because even though labour did indeed collapse, there was no guarentee that the SNP would be the ones to exploit it, or to the extent they have.

I also disagree that the SNP were not talented - in 2007 they had a fairly heavyweight front bench. They have been hollowed out a bit since then i would agree.

They are probably all just factors in a fairly perfect storm for the nats.

[northstandhibby]

why is the level of political engagement within younger voters never mentioned. Is it because we are all tagged as been sheep?

Ask any 16-25 year old who they will be voting.. there is no doubt what the majority response will be. Also ask them if they identify themselves as Scottish or British.

I have personally never seen anything united about United Kingdom and have lived through an era of austerity and a Tory government that we do not want.

We want change and we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process.

I take it you're an SNP supporter, a nationalist?

glory glory

[Moulin Yarns]

This is probably one for a separate thread, but we allow people to

Drive
Have sex
Get married
Join the armed forces
Pay tax

before we allow them to vote.

There's an unfairness in there for me.

A lower minimum voting age has been credited with boosting young people's interest in politics when it was introduced for the Scottish referendum on independence. The Welsh Assembly wold have a different make up of AMs and the UK would still be in the EU, according to this.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/asked-teenagers-wales-think-voting-11591571

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

why is the level of political engagement within younger voters never mentioned. Is it because we are all tagged as been sheep?

Ask any 16-25 year old who they will be voting.. there is no doubt what the majority response will be. Also ask them if they identify themselves as Scottish or British.

I have personally never seen anything united about United Kingdom and have lived through an era of austerity and a Tory government that we do not want.

We want change and we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process.

I think you make good points, but it isnt all about nostalgia.

Its also about becoming more risk averse as you get older. Mortgages, children and all the associated paraphernalia mean you have a helluva lot more to lose if things go wrong.

Thay doesnt preclude nationalism of course, but it does mean the status quo probably has to be pretry bad to get the change you want.

It may well be heading that way, we shall see, but at the moment i dont think it is.

Also its why the economic illiteracy of the yes side ladt time was so damaging.

[pacoluna]

I take it you're an SNP supporter, a nationalist?

glory glory
Yes along with a heavy majority of my generation.

[northstandhibby]

Yet you'll take their tax?

Still think let them live for a couple of years prior to voting regardless of any other points you may or may not make regarding this topic. It makes sound sense to me to let them develop their outlook firstly.

glory glory

[CropleyWasGod]

Still think let them live for a couple of years prior to voting regardless of any other points you may or may not make regarding this topic. It makes sound sense to me to let them develop their outlook firstly.

glory glory

It doesn't answer my question, of course. There's a basic principle at play here, summarised in the "no taxation without representation" philosophy.

At what age do you think people have "developed their outlook"? I know many people in their 30's and 40's, as I'm sure do you, who just don't care about politics. Equally so, some of the debates involving young teenagers during Indyref were remarkable.

[northstandhibby]

It doesn't answer my question, of course. There's a basic principle at play here, summarised in the "no taxation without representation" philosophy.

At what age do you think people have "developed their outlook"? I know many people in their 30's and 40's, as I'm sure do you, who just don't care about politics. Equally so, some of the debates involving young teenagers during Indyref were remarkable.

I understand you have a position on the matter but for me I will always have the opinion let the youngsters fresh out of school have a couple of years in the adult world to start developing their own outlook. There's no point CWG trying to debate this with me as I would never change my mind on it.

glory glory

[Jack]

The 98% is an often-misquoted misunderstanding.

The top rate at the time was 83% on earned income. In addition, there was a 15% surcharge on "unearned income". In other words, the 98% was only charged on the top slice of investment income.

Still pretty brutal, though. The effect was to persuade many of the top earners to leave the country.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

People might leave the country but the job that had the salary to attract the high taxation would still be in Scotland, ready for the next person.

I'd imagine rather than folk running away employers would tweak salaries. It already happens in European football*, that level of football that's way way above Hibs!

Anyway.

There's already salary and tax variations all over the world. Other than footballers it doesn't seem to matter much to the vast majority of people and companies/organisations continue to operate, some indeed in many countries at the same time.

* Contracts are on a net rate and it's up to the club to make good on all the taxes due for both player and club (and NI:-). Except preRangers of course!!

[Smartie]

I think you make good points, but it isnt all about nostalgia.

Its also about becoming more risk averse as you get older. Mortgages, children and all the associated paraphernalia mean you have a helluva lot more to lose if things go wrong.

Thay doesnt preclude nationalism of course, but it does mean the status quo probably has to be pretry bad to get the change you want.

It may well be heading that way, we shall see, but at the moment i dont think it is.

Also its why the economic illiteracy of the yes side ladt time was so damaging.

The problem is though, that without a crystal ball it is difficult to make projections and predictions. The oil price plummeted and made the SNP look daft. It might have rocketed and then their figures would have looked different (although my main problems with their predictions was that they staked far too much on the price of oil, which is volatile and a finite resource so was fundamentally flawed anyway).

Brexit might be the best thing that ever happens for the UK and it might lead us all to a far brighter and more prosperous future, that we can properly share around and make us a better, more equal and fair society. I highly doubt it, but it might.

At the last Indyref, the SNP had to put a case forward that there was a benefit in leaving a Union that for many (not all) had a track record of success. That track record has now been hugely jeopardised going forward.

So a "Yes" campaign will have to come up with a proposal that will be a prediction, which will have to fight it out with another prediction. It is far easier to pick holes in these predictions that it is to make them, or rather actually deliver on them (saying there will be an extra £350 million per week for the NHS it turns out is incredibly easy to say).

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you make good points, but it isnt all about nostalgia.

Its also about becoming more risk averse as you get older. Mortgages, children and all the associated paraphernalia mean you have a helluva lot more to lose if things go wrong.

Thay doesnt preclude nationalism of course, but it does mean the status quo probably has to be pretry bad to get the change you want.

It may well be heading that way, we shall see, but at the moment i dont think it is.

Also its why the economic illiteracy of the yes side ladt time was so damaging.

Yet Yes is consistently ahead in all age groups bar pensioners where No is consistently ahead by miles. My opinion is both factors are in play, but I don't think diminishing British identity over the last several decades can simply be ignored.

[Swedish hibee]

I remember the 90s when all the 'cool kids' voted Blair & Labour. That went well didn't it!!! I've met many folk now older who regret that vote, and they wish they had known better.

Youth is wasted on the young as the saying goes.

[Smartie]

Yet Yes is consistently ahead in all age groups bar pensioners where No is consistently ahead by miles. My opinion is both factors are in play, but I don't think diminishing British identity over the last several decades can simply be ignored.

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it is diminishing.

I think it is pretty fluctuant - fairly meaningless (in the grand scheme of things) events like Team GB doing well at the London Olympics and the death of Princess Diana will probably see a spike in British identity. And I'm sure Theresa will know as well as Maggie did that there is nothing like a good war to get the British all patriotic.

Scottish national identity took a kicking following our abject performance at the 1978 World Cup.

It's really funny how these things can have such a big effect.

The slightly scary thing is that it all does have an effect, and in my opinion much of this current wrangling is happening as we all wrestle without own individual sense of national identity and struggle to deal with the fact that our nearest and dearest might actually see things differently (and that goes for both sides).

I'm not a fan of labelling people Nationalists or Unionists based on their opinions or preferences as to how they view our constitution. I am in favour of Scottish independence but don't view myself in the least Nationalistic. I just happen to hold a belief that certain decisions should be made in Edinburgh, certain decisions should (and should not) be made at Westminster and that some should be made in Brussels and I don't really hold it against anyone that has a different opinion as to where these decisions should be made.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Yet Yes is consistently ahead in all age groups bar pensioners where No is consistently ahead by miles. My opinion is both factors are in play, but I don't think diminishing British identity over the last several decades can simply be ignored.

No neither do i, i think it is undoubtedly a factor.

[Hibrandenburg]

Result of vote on Early Election

Ayes to the right 522

Nos to the left 13

I'm at work and didn't see the vote but I take it that Jeremy Corbyn's Social Nationalist party have vote for an election en mass.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm at work and didn't see the vote but I take it that Jeremy Corbyn's Social Nationalist party have vote for an election en mass.

I imagine the 13 were probably LAbour, but not sure. I know the SNP MPs remained in the chamber and abstained

Here is the answer

Nine Labour MPs:
1. Ronnie Campbell
2. Ann Clwyd
3. Paul Farrelly
4. Jim Fitzpatrick
5. Clive Lewis
6. Fiona Mactaggart
7. Liz McInnes
8. Dennis Skinner
9. Graham Stringer
Three Independent MPs:
1. Lady Sylvia Hermon
2. Natalie McGarry (suspended SNP)
3. Michelle Thomson (suspended SNP)
One SLDP MP:
1. Dr Alasdair McDonnell

[pacoluna]

I imagine the 13 were probably LAbour, but not sure. I know the SNP MPs remained in the chamber and abstained

Here is the answer

Nine Labour MPs:
1. Ronnie Campbell
2. Ann Clwyd
3. Paul Farrelly
4. Jim Fitzpatrick
5. Clive Lewis
6. Fiona Mactaggart
7. Liz McInnes
8. Dennis Skinner
9. Graham Stringer
Three Independent MPs:
1. Lady Sylvia Hermon
2. Natalie McGarry (suspended SNP)
3. Michelle Thomson (suspended SNP)
One SLDP MP:
1. Dr Alasdair McDonnell

Ian murray twisting things and blaming SNP for accepting a Tory government by abstaining . Unbelievable still to this day they blame the SNP for their demise but not themselves.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I imagine the 13 were probably LAbour, but not sure. I know the SNP MPs remained in the chamber and abstained

Here is the answer

Nine Labour MPs:
1. Ronnie Campbell
2. Ann Clwyd
3. Paul Farrelly
4. Jim Fitzpatrick
5. Clive Lewis
6. Fiona Mactaggart
7. Liz McInnes
8. Dennis Skinner
9. Graham Stringer
Three Independent MPs:
1. Lady Sylvia Hermon
2. Natalie McGarry (suspended SNP)
3. Michelle Thomson (suspended SNP)
One SLDP MP:
1. Dr Alasdair McDonnell


No surprise to see the two suspended nats vote against.

I presume they will both be de-selected.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ian murray twisting things and blaming SNP for accepting a Tory government by abstaining . Unbelievable still to this day they blame the SNP for their demise but not themselves.

They kinda did though. Voting against an election, is de facto accepting the govt.

I do hate abstentions, it just seems like cowardly way of voting against something.

[Moulin Yarns]

They kinda did though. Voting against an election, is de facto accepting the govt.

I do hate abstentions, it just seems like cowardly way of voting against something.

I think you are confused.

You have made some decent points through the day, but an abstention is not a vote against. It is more an indication of ambivalence to the motion.

The did not vote for or against holding the election, ergo did not accept or reject the government by abstaining.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think you are confused.

You have made some decent points through the day, but an abstention is not a vote against. It is more an indication of ambivalence to the motion.

The did not vote for or against holding the election, ergo did not accept or reject the government by abstaining.


Ok, but ambivalence to a tory govt isnt something i believe the nats would claim?

I just think its a strange move. Not that important in the grand scheme of things i accept, more a personal bugbear of.mine when political parties of all persuasions dont habe thr courage of their convictions on any given issue.

Not a dig at the SNP really. Although id be interested to know people's views on why they abstained? I genuinely can't see the advantage in doing it?

Also i would quite like to point out that i am in no way defending that wee hearts basss ian murray. I still remember him helping them in their great charity amd creditor rip-off.

[Hibbyradge]

This is probably one for a separate thread, but we allow people to

Drive
Have sex
Get married
Join the armed forces
Pay tax

before we allow them to vote.

There's an unfairness in there for me.

Taxation without representation is tyranny. :cb

[Smartie]

Ok, but ambivalence to a tory govt isnt something i believe the nats would claim?

I just think its a strange move. Not that important in the grand scheme of things i accept, more a personal bugbear of.mine when political parties of all persuasions dont habe thr courage of their convictions on any given issue.

Not a dig at the SNP really. Although id be interested to know people's views on why they abstained? I genuinely can't see the advantage in doing it?

Also i would quite like to point out that i am in no way defending that wee hearts basss ian murray. I still remember him helping them in their great charity amd creditor rip-off.

I don't know why they abstained.

It was clearly going to go through anyway. If they'd all voted against it they could have maintained their "real opposition" line, "opposing Conservative austerity and this government every step of the way" line whilst still getting a chance in a few weeks to have an election, a chance that they'll be happy enough to have.

Abstaining is for Labour.

[IGRIGI]

Will be interesting to see where the Scottish Labour vote goes, last time around there was the chance of Miliband winning which kept some of the anti-Tory vote on board, no chance of that now.

Will the Unionist vote swing behind the Tories and will there be much of an "anti Tory" move to SNP?

I can see SNP losing some marginals but with the nature of FPTP there would have to be huge swings to make any sort of dent in SNP numbers.

Even if they lose 10 they are still at around 45 out of 59, can the Tories really argue that Scotland has rejected SNP and indy on that?

Best chance for them is fatigue amongst SNP vote and unionists all falling in line behind Tories.

[McD]

why is the level of political engagement within younger voters never mentioned. Is it because we are all tagged as been sheep?

Ask any 16-25 year old who they will be voting.. there is no doubt what the majority response will be. Also ask them if they identify themselves as Scottish or British.

I have personally never seen anything united about United Kingdom and have lived through an era of austerity and a Tory government that we do not want.

We want change and we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process.


Isnt it rather arrogant to assume it's nostalgia that guides the thought process of someone older than you?

your first sentence implies you feel your age group isn't being given the due respect it deserves, shouldn't that also be true if any other demographic?

[marinello59]

Will be interesting to see where the Scottish Labour vote goes, last time around there was the chance of Miliband winning which kept some of the anti-Tory vote on board, no chance of that now.

Will the Unionist vote swing behind the Tories and will there be much of an "anti Tory" move to SNP?

I can see SNP losing some marginals but with the nature of FPTP there would have to be huge swings to make any sort of dent in SNP numbers.

Even if they lose 10 they are still at around 45 out of 59, can the Tories really argue that Scotland has rejected SNP and indy on that?

Best chance for them is fatigue amongst SNP vote and unionists all falling in line behind Tories.

The SNP will lose very few seats if any. But they have to make it clear that a vote for them is a vote for Independence or for a referendum if they are to claim it strengthens the mandate they already have
We would do well to remember though that this is a General Election and dismissing everybody who doesn't vote SNP as Unionists is lazy, divisive and inaccurate.

[pacoluna]

Isnt it rather arrogant to assume it's nostalgia that guides the thought process of someone older than you?

your first sentence implies you feel your age group isn't being given the due respect it deserves, shouldn't that also be true if any other demographic?
Never said it guides them I said it comes in to their thought process. Would be naive to suggest otherwise.

[Hibrandenburg]

I imagine the 13 were probably LAbour, but not sure. I know the SNP MPs remained in the chamber and abstained

Here is the answer

Nine Labour MPs:
1. Ronnie Campbell
2. Ann Clwyd
3. Paul Farrelly
4. Jim Fitzpatrick
5. Clive Lewis
6. Fiona Mactaggart
7. Liz McInnes
8. Dennis Skinner
9. Graham Stringer
Three Independent MPs:
1. Lady Sylvia Hermon
2. Natalie McGarry (suspended SNP)
3. Michelle Thomson (suspended SNP)
One SLDP MP:
1. Dr Alasdair McDonnell

:thumbsup: thanks.

[McD]

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it is diminishing.

I think it is pretty fluctuant - fairly meaningless (in the grand scheme of things) events like Team GB doing well at the London Olympics and the death of Princess Diana will probably see a spike in British identity. And I'm sure Theresa will know as well as Maggie did that there is nothing like a good war to get the British all patriotic.

Scottish national identity took a kicking following our abject performance at the 1978 World Cup.

It's really funny how these things can have such a big effect.

The slightly scary thing is that it all does have an effect, and in my opinion much of this current wrangling is happening as we all wrestle without own individual sense of national identity and struggle to deal with the fact that our nearest and dearest might actually see things differently (and that goes for both sides).

I'm not a fan of labelling people Nationalists or Unionists based on their opinions or preferences as to how they view our constitution. I am in favour of Scottish independence but don't view myself in the least Nationalistic. I just happen to hold a belief that certain decisions should be made in Edinburgh, certain decisions should (and should not) be made at Westminster and that some should be made in Brussels and I don't really hold it against anyone that has a different opinion as to where these decisions should be made.



Terrific post :top marks

[RyeSloan]

Isnt it rather arrogant to assume it's nostalgia that guides the thought process of someone older than you?

your first sentence implies you feel your age group isn't being given the due respect it deserves, shouldn't that also be true if any other demographic?

Very true and something that is quite prevalent when these discussions come up...the old folk are stuck in their ways and it will all be fine when they die off. Sadly for this line of thinking though is that 'old folk' will make up a bigger and bigger portion of our society over the next while.

I think it's pretty clear people's politics and views are quite likely to change as they grow older (and maybe wiser) so the demographic split is likely to persist.

[marinello59]

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say it is diminishing.

I think it is pretty fluctuant - fairly meaningless (in the grand scheme of things) events like Team GB doing well at the London Olympics and the death of Princess Diana will probably see a spike in British identity. And I'm sure Theresa will know as well as Maggie did that there is nothing like a good war to get the British all patriotic.

Scottish national identity took a kicking following our abject performance at the 1978 World Cup.

It's really funny how these things can have such a big effect.

The slightly scary thing is that it all does have an effect, and in my opinion much of this current wrangling is happening as we all wrestle without own individual sense of national identity and struggle to deal with the fact that our nearest and dearest might actually see things differently (and that goes for both sides).

I'm not a fan of labelling people Nationalists or Unionists based on their opinions or preferences as to how they view our constitution. I am in favour of Scottish independence but don't view myself in the least Nationalistic. I just happen to hold a belief that certain decisions should be made in Edinburgh, certain decisions should (and should not) be made at Westminster and that some should be made in Brussels and I don't really hold it against anyone that has a different opinion as to where these decisions should be made.

Great post. I am in favour of Independence but saltire waving Nationalism leaves me cold.

[McD]

Never said it guides them I said it comes in to their thought process. Would be naive to suggest otherwise.


Your phrase: 'we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process'


the word interfering does not come across as accepting of others' opinions and thoughts, or even a way of describing 'comes into'.

As I said, you appear to be asking for respect and acceptance that your demographic aren't 'sheep' (your word), isn't it simple manners to offer the same to others?

[Mon Dieu4]

Very true and something that is quite prevalent when these discussions come up...the old folk are stuck in their ways and it will all be fine when they die off. Sadly for this line of thinking though is that 'old folk' will make up a bigger and bigger portion of our society over the next while.

I think it's pretty clear people's politics and views are quite likely to change as they grow older (and maybe wiser) so the demographic split is likely to persist.

Most OAPs are stuck in their ways though and will stick with the status quo rather than take a risk, I don't blame them for it in the slightest it's human nature, but with the advent of the Internet the world has changed in all comparison over the last 20 odd years so you can't say it will persist, as was eloquently said on another thread these are the war and post war generations who can remember the war, the NHS being created, the reminants of an empire etc, these people feel more British than the majority of younger people these days who can only remember sham wars, austerity, food banks etc, might not happen in my time but independence is a given imo

[pacoluna]

Very true and something that is quite prevalent when these discussions come up...the old folk are stuck in their ways and it will all be fine when they die off. Sadly for this line of thinking though is that 'old folk' will make up a bigger and bigger portion of our society over the next while.

I think it's pretty clear people's politics and views are quite likely to change as they grow older (and maybe wiser) so the demographic split is likely to persist.

So are you suggesting as people my age grow older most of us will turn into stanch unionists? Like current demographical trend.

[Speedy]

I understand you have a position on the matter but for me I will always have the opinion let the youngsters fresh out of school have a couple of years in the adult world to start developing their own outlook. There's no point CWG trying to debate this with me as I would never change my mind on it.

glory glory

I'd say it's a nonsense argument but you've not even given an argument.

They are eligible for taxation (amongst other things) so 16/17 year olds should be allowed to vote. Like everyone else their outlook is their outlook at that point in time and they are entitled to it whether other generations agree or not.

If you can give me a reason to change that view then fair enough but don't pretend you're doing them a favour by letting them live their life.

[makaveli1875]

So are you suggesting as people my age grow older most of us will turn into stanch unionists? Like current demographical trend.

what makes you so certain that a heavy majority of your age group are nationalists ?

[northstandhibby]

I'd say it's a nonsense argument but you've not even given an argument.

They are eligible for taxation (amongst other things) so 16/17 year olds should be allowed to vote. Like everyone else their outlook is their outlook at that point in time and they are entitled to it whether other generations agree or not.

If you can give me a reason to change that view then fair enough but don't pretend you're doing them a favour by letting them live their life.

Nobody said they were doing them a favor by letting them live their life.

And I stand by my opinion regardless.

glory glory

[Speedy]

Nobody said they were doing them a favor by letting them live their life.

And I stand by my opinion regardless.

glory glory

Maybe I misinterpreted the below, but that's how it comes across.


I think the youngsters should be allowed to live a little before they decide on their chosen government.

glory glory

[marinello59]

what makes you so certain that a heavy majority of your age group are nationalists ?

Maybe it's because so many SNP supporters spend most of their time talking to themselves and sneering at those who don't share their views rather than trying to win them over. It's part of the reason we lost to No last time round and it has to change.

[northstandhibby]

Maybe I misinterpreted the below, but that's how it comes across.

Having the opinion youngsters straight out of school should be allowed a couple of years life experience in the adult world of work etc prior to voting is not the same as doing them a favor by letting them live their lives.

I think mine is a rational opinion whether or not you don't approve of it.

glory glory

[pacoluna]

Your phrase: 'we haven't got nostalgia interfering with our thinking process'


the word interfering does not come across as accepting of others' opinions and thoughts, or even a way of describing 'comes into'.

As I said, you appear to be asking for respect and acceptance that your demographic aren't 'sheep' (your word), isn't it simple manners to offer the same to others?
The politics of nostalgia exaggerates positive aspects and eliminates negative ones IMO which is why I think it is an interference when it comes to making current and future political decisions.

[marinello59]

The politics of nostalgia exaggerates positive aspects and eliminates negative ones IMO which is why I think it is an interference when it comes to making current and future political decisions.

Any study to back that up because it looks like you simply made it up to justify your age based prejudice?

[northstandhibby]

Maybe it's because so many SNP supporters spend most of their time talking to themselves and sneering at those who don't share their views rather than trying to win them over. It's part of the reason we lost to No last time round and it has to change.

Top post.

That is exactly what they need to do. They have to engage with folk regardless of positions on the UK and win them over not by sneering or shouting the loudest.

glory glory

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm not a fan of labelling people Nationalists or Unionists based on their opinions or preferences as to how they view our constitution. I am in favour of Scottish independence but don't view myself in the least Nationalistic. I just happen to hold a belief that certain decisions should be made in Edinburgh, certain decisions should (and should not) be made at Westminster and that some should be made in Brussels and I don't really hold it against anyone that has a different opinion as to where these decisions should be made.

This is a fantastic post and would pretty much describe me in all of this, I can often get in heated arguments with friends and family about it all but respect that they just see things differently from me, sometimes I may just not get it but if everyone thought the same as me the world would probably be in ruins :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

So are you suggesting as people my age grow older most of us will turn into stanch unionists? Like current demographical trend.

I would suggest there is maybe a number of degrees between your political views and a 'staunch unionist'. Another habit of some Indy supporters is to label anyone who may have doubts about how Indy will work as a unionist...believe it or not it is possible not to support Indy as it has been proposed previously (not seen any detail on what will be proposed for a future vote) and not be a 'staunch unionist'.

Anyway back to your main point...I was merely suggesting people's views and politics can and do change as they age.

It's odd to suggest that after years of life experience and plenty of (normally painful) understanding to be gained as to the benefits or otherwise of politicians solutions and proposed solutions as you live through them that they should not influence you and indeed maybe change your perspective on things.

People often accumulate some assets or have additional responsibilities to consider and in general may have a more settled and long term view with things like their careers so in general I think that makes people more conservative overall.

I don't see those things fundamentally changing so I'm not convinced by the generational change argument that the new old folk will act radically differently to the old old folk when it comes to facing the type of change that is being constantly promoted for Scotland.

As ever though nothing is ever absolute and maybe it will impact enough, not that the SNP are prepared to wait to find out ;-)

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I would suggest there is maybe a number of degrees between your political views and a 'staunch unionist'. Another habit of some Indy supporters is to label anyone who may have doubts about how Indy will work as a unionist...believe it or not it is possible not to support Indy as it has been proposed previously (not seen any detail on what will be proposed for a future vote) and not be a 'staunch unionist'.

Anyway back to your main point...I was merely suggesting people's views and politics can and do change as they age.

It's odd to suggest that after years of life experience and plenty of (normally painful) understanding to be gained as to the benefits or otherwise of politicians solutions and proposed solutions as you live through them that they should not influence you and indeed maybe change your perspective on things.

People often accumulate some assets or have additional responsibilities to consider and in general may have a more settled and long term view with things like their careers so in general I think that makes people more conservative overall.

I don't see those things fundamentally changing so I'm not convinced by the generational change argument that the new old folk will act radically differently to the old old folk when it comes to facing the type of change that is being constantly promoted for Scotland.

As ever though nothing is ever absolute and maybe it will impact enough, not that the SNP are prepared to wait to find out ;-)

Agree with this.

There is another aspect too, and that is that young people have a very different view of risk taking. We all did daft things in our teens and early ( sometimes late!) 20s.

There is a degree of recklessness in youth, that translates into their political thoughts.

That is not to say it invalidates them, but i assure pacoluna it changes a lot. My own political views have altered hugely sincey uni days. It happens...

[Jack]

Much was made of the young vote at the last independence referendum. Fact is most didn't bother their bahookies to vote!

[Speedy]

Much was made of the young vote at the last independence referendum. Fact is most didn't bother their bahookies to vote!

Nothing wrong with that (imo).

[McD]

The politics of nostalgia exaggerates positive aspects and eliminates negative ones IMO which is why I think it is an interference when it comes to making current and future political decisions.


Good effort at ignoring everything I actually said to try and justify your previous comment.


You freely admit you are of the younger demographic, so you have no experience of that, as has been said it's just your prejudice against older generations, all based on them having the sheer gall to have a different opinion to yours. Adding 'IMO' is really just a way of saying 'I have no proof but I'll spout off anyway'.

How arrogant of you, to demand that older generations not brand your demographic as 'sheep' whilst belittling their thoughts, opinions and life experiences as 'politics of nostalgia', 'interfering with their thinking process'. I'm sure you'd not take kindly to anyone describing your thinking process as being interfered with politics of grievance and rhetoric, would you? Or implying that your lack of life experience somehow made your opinion less valid? Neither of these is my opinion of the younger demographic as it happens. I have no issue with anyone of any age group having their own opinion, my only request would be that they make their own minds up, as I'm sure you have.



both Marinello and Smartie have made brilliant posts, both making reference to not labelling or sneering at others with different thoughts, and positively engaging with them may actually change people's minds, rather than insulting them.

[ronaldo7]

The politics of nostalgia exaggerates positive aspects and eliminates negative ones IMO which is why I think it is an interference when it comes to making current and future political decisions.

Some of the auldies are on your side.:greengrin

18402

[ronaldo7]

Lesley gets it nailed on.

https://t.co/ALSzAz8fGb

[pacoluna]

Good effort at ignoring everything I actually said to try and justify your previous comment.


You freely admit you are of the younger demographic, so you have no experience of that, as has been said it's just your prejudice against older generations, all based on them having the sheer gall to have a different opinion to yours. Adding 'IMO' is really just a way of saying 'I have no proof but I'll spout off anyway'.

How arrogant of you, to demand that older generations not brand your demographic as 'sheep' whilst belittling their thoughts, opinions and life experiences as 'politics of nostalgia', 'interfering with their thinking process'. I'm sure you'd not take kindly to anyone describing your thinking process as being interfered with politics of grievance and rhetoric, would you? Or implying that your lack of life experience somehow made your opinion less valid? Neither of these is my opinion of the younger demographic as it happens. I have no issue with anyone of any age group having their own opinion, my only request would be that they make their own minds up, as I'm sure you have.



both Marinello and Smartie have made brilliant posts, both making reference to not labelling or sneering at others with different thoughts, and positively engaging with them may actually change people's minds, rather than insulting them.

Who's belittling their thoughts? When I speak of older generation I speak of over 60s, where there is clearly no appetite for independence.. as I said before I believe nostalgia has a part to play in their thinking process as well as other factors of course, They as a majority feel more British, there is no doubt about that.

I haven't demanded anything, you are just taking offence to my opinion. your second paragraph is full of hypocrisy, you think by saying "I'm sure you'd not take kindly to" before your list of explanations of why some people think Nationalists vote is a clear lack of contempt. btw I don't deny that grievance has a part to play in my decision making.

As for Marinello and Smartie, they are entitled to their opinion as everyone is. I am not obliged to try and convert people in to voting for independence through debate. As said before I believe demographics means independence is a matter of when not if. I will let others present an analytical and in-depth analysis as to why scotland should be an independent country and debate ,try to swing potential voters i.e politicians, canvassers , more qualified representatives.
If someone of that age bracket takes offence to my opinion with regards to nostalgia, I will apologies but it won't change my opinion. I doubt they would take offence however.

[Moulin Yarns]

When I speak of older generation I speak of over 60s, where there is a clearly no appetite for independence.

OI!!!! :grr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng

[marinello59]

Lesley gets it nailed on.

https://t.co/ALSzAz8fGb

I found it hard to watch that without continually nodding in agreement.

[northstandhibby]

Who's belittling there thoughts? When I speak of older generation I speak of over 60s, where there is a clearly no appetite for independence.. as I said before I believe nostalgia has a part to play in their thinking process as well as other factors of course, They as a majority feel more British, there is no doubt about that.

I haven't demanded anything, you are just taking offence to my opinion. your second paragraph is full of hypocrisy, you think by saying "I'm sure you'd not take kindly to" before your list of explanations of why some people think Nationalists vote is a clear lack of contempt.

As for Marinello and Smartie, they are entitled to there opinion as everyone is. I am not obliged to try and convert people in to voting for independence through debate. As said before I believe demographics means independence is a matter of when not if. I will let those who have the time on there hands to present an analytical and in-depth analysis as to why scotland should be an independent country debate and swing potential voters i.e politicians, canvassers , more qualified representatives.
If someone of that age bracket takes offence to my opinion with regards to nostalgia, I will apologies but it won't change my opinion. I doubt they would take offence however.

I don't think nostalgia has any relevance whatsoever. Folk normally base their thinking on realities of a much wider landscape than just simply nostalgia. Folk tend to weigh up whats best for their work and pensions, law and order, their countries defenses, the overall economy, education for their grandchildren/kids etc etc etc.

As for 'feeling British', again I don't think that's particularly relevant. I don't feel particularly European yet I was passionately very keen to remain part of the EU due to some of the factors I referred to above as I thought being in the EU was good for the economy and the ECHR.

I don't feel particularly European, British or Scottish for that matter, I like many others compare and contrast whats best for not just me as an individual but for the wider country/s well being and include whats best for the younger generations coming through.

glory glory

[pacoluna]

OI!!!! :grr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng

Maybe I am being harsh in saying no appetite at all.

Exiting polls, current pollsters indyref1 demographic results all back up my point though with regards to over 60s and their voting intentions.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lesley gets it nailed on.

https://t.co/ALSzAz8fGb


I found it hard to watch that without continually nodding in agreement.

She really should consider standing for parliament.

[McD]

Who's belittling their thoughts? When I speak of older generation I speak of over 60s, where there is clearly no appetite for independence.. as I said before I believe nostalgia has a part to play in their thinking process as well as other factors of course, They as a majority feel more British, there is no doubt about that.

I haven't demanded anything, you are just taking offence to my opinion. your second paragraph is full of hypocrisy, you think by saying "I'm sure you'd not take kindly to" before your list of explanations of why some people think Nationalists vote is a clear lack of contempt. btw I don't deny that grievance has a part to play in my decision making.

As for Marinello and Smartie, they are entitled to their opinion as everyone is. I am not obliged to try and convert people in to voting for independence through debate. As said before I believe demographics means independence is a matter of when not if. I will let others present an analytical and in-depth analysis as to why scotland should be an independent country and debate ,try to swing potential voters i.e politicians, canvassers , more qualified representatives.
If someone of that age bracket takes offence to my opinion with regards to nostalgia, I will apologies but it won't change my opinion. I doubt they would take offence however.


you are belittling, by using words like 'interfering' - if you were accepting of their opinions you could have used a number of other words. If you're saying that you didn't mare an it in that way, fair enough :aok:

You spoke about people describing the younger demographic as 'sheep' - that's a negative description, and one would surely think then, that you are seeking/asking/demanding that other demographics accept that that your opinion should be just as valid as anyone's - which it is.

hypocrisy - no, not in the slightest. I gave some examples of some of the negative descriptions others have used regarding the yes/nationalist side. I then quite specifically said that they weren't my opinions. Hence the use of the phrase 'some people'. Not me.

Finaliy, yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I gave no issue with yours whatsoever ��. I wasn't asking or expecting you to convert people, nor was I trying to do so either. All I ask (of everyone) is respect and decency towards each other.

[Swedish hibee]

I simply don't get why Scotland wants to come out of the UK to join Europe if you want to be an independent country?????
What is the point of that? Why not be independent full stop?

[CapitalGreen]

I simply don't get why Scotland wants to come out of the UK to join Europe if you want to be an independent country?????
What is the point of that? Why not be independent full stop?

Off the top of my head:
- Retain access to the European single market
- Retain access to the ECHR
- Free movement of people

[pacoluna]

you are belittling, by using words like 'interfering' - if you were accepting of their opinions you could have used a number of other words. If you're saying that you didn't mare an it in that way, fair enough :aok:

You spoke about people describing the younger demographic as 'sheep' - that's a negative description, and one would surely think then, that you are seeking/asking/demanding that other demographics accept that that your opinion should be just as valid as anyone's - which it is.

hypocrisy - no, not in the slightest. I gave some examples of some of the negative descriptions others have used regarding the yes/nationalist side. I then quite specifically said that they weren't my opinions. Hence the use of the phrase 'some people'. Not me.

Finaliy, yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I gave no issue with yours whatsoever ��. I wasn't asking or expecting you to convert people, nor was I trying to do so either. All I ask (of everyone) is respect and decency towards each other.

I respect everyone's vote as I am a democrat. By no means did I look to cause offence.

I still think however that nostalgia is an interference with regards to current and future political decisions.

[Moulin Yarns]

I simply don't get why Scotland wants to come out of the UK to join Europe if you want to be an independent country?????
What is the point of that? Why not be independent full stop?

And in Sweden?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-latest-news-sweden-support-eu-swedish-membership-surges-a7136426.html

[Swedish hibee]

Off the top of my head:
- Retain access to the European single market
- Retain access to the ECHR
- Free movement of people

So you just want to be in Europe? Not independent full stop like other countries. I see.

[CropleyWasGod]

I simply don't get why Scotland wants to come out of the UK to join Europe if you want to be an independent country?????
What is the point of that? Why not be independent full stop?

Maybe a bit like Sweden wanting out of the United Kingdom of Sweden and Norway, only to join the EU? :greengrin

[Swedish hibee]

And in Sweden?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-latest-news-sweden-support-eu-swedish-membership-surges-a7136426.html

Yes. I too am one who hopes we leave the EU. It is a failing Kingdom and we need to get out asap. I cannot understand why Scotland wants to become part of the failing Euro. Noone in Sweden understands this!

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes. I too am one who hopes we leave the EU. It is a failing Kingdom and we need to get out asap. I cannot understand why Scotland wants to become part of the failing Euro. Noone in Sweden understands this!

The article says Swedish support for remaining in Europe has increased since Brexit though.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I respect everyone's vote as I am a democrat. By no means did I look to cause offence.

I still think however that nostalgia is an interference with regards to current and future political decisions.



the democrats in America appear to have no respect for democracy , they must have a different meaning of what democracy means :greengrin

[Swedish hibee]

The article says Swedish support for remaining in Europe has increased since Brexit though.

😂😂😂😂😂 Was this survey done in downtown Malmo?

Anyways it is always interesting to read your Scots views, petty ones and all!! I look forward to the next few weeks of heated debate. Carry on people..

[CapitalGreen]

So you just want to be in Europe? Not independent full stop like other countries. I see.

You're too late mate, this facile argument has been discussed numerous times before on these boards and I'm not about to waste my time having another one. I'm afraid you do not have a monopoly over how one should view independence.

[CropleyWasGod]

😂😂😂😂😂 Was this survey done in downtown Malmo?

Anyways it is always interesting to read your Scots views, petty ones and all!! I look forward to the next few weeks of heated debate. Carry on people..

I wish it were only a few weeks, mate :)

[Speedy]

😂😂😂😂😂 Was this survey done in downtown Malmo?

Anyways it is always interesting to read your Scots views, petty ones and all!! I look forward to the next few weeks of heated debate. Carry on people..

Worth remebering this forum is in no way representative of Edinburgh, let alone Scotland.

The polls on here were very pro indy but we know how that went.

[McD]

I respect everyone's vote as I am a democrat. By no means did I look to cause offence.

I still think however that nostalgia is an interference with regards to current and future political decisions.


Fair enough mate :aok:

[Speedy]

I respect everyone's vote as I am a democrat. By no means did I look to cause offence.

I still think however that nostalgia is an interference with regards to current and future political decisions.

I would agree with you. That said, many people of the older generation are capable of seeing past it. And equally people of all generations have their own bias and viewpount.

All entitled to their vote imo (which I think is what you're saying as well).

[JeMeSouviens]

From the Guardian:


Labour’s sole surviving MP, Ian Murray, said he supported tactical voting to defeat the SNP, but said that meant Tory and Lib Dem voters had to switch sides too if their primary objective was to block the SNP.

He said it would be ludicrous for Tory voters to think their party had any chance of winning his Edinburgh South seat, given that they were 12,000 votes behind Labour in 2015. “If people are saying we want to protect the union, the candidate in the best position is me,” he said.

So there you go, to those who thought it was outlandish to suggest Labour *voters* would switch to the Tories, here's a Labour *MP* saying he supports switching to the Tories. :rolleyes: