General Election 2015...

[Geo_1875]

And Cameron at PMQs suggesting that he should be holding a debate with Salmond rather than Milliband. Doesn't he realise that Eck isn't an MP let alone the leader of a political party? He must still wake up screaming.

[RIP]

Nope. I'm not willfully missing the point at all, and yes I do have a loyalty to the party I've supported all my adult life, unlike many others it seems. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but loyalty just doesn't seem to be valued much these days.

I don't believe Labour is the be all and end all, and the SNP certainly aren't either. In fact, no political party is. I wouldn't trust most politicians as far as I could throw them. I just happen to believe that the founding principles of the Labour party were closest to mine, and generations of my family before me. They are the best out of a very bad bunch at this moment in time.

Anyway, despite what you may think , or are implying, I do get the point you make in the second sentence of your post. The point I'm making is the more seats Labour win in Scotland the better, as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't seem to go down too well on this Forum though.

I completely understand this! I'm from a Christian family who voted Labour for generations. The founding origins of our belief systems is built on the principle that society exists for all of us rather than for a select few.

If Findlay had got in as Scottish Labour leader I thing we would have had a chance of genuine socialist policies at Holyrood. But it's no good having a left wing agenda in this country if the rest of the UK party are still singing from the Blair and New Labour hymnsheet. Murphy has backed Trident, welfare sanctions, fracking and other Tory policies. He even jumped on Tory leader Ruth Davidson's bandwagon recently in support of the big wigs at Hampden and rich club owners who want to keep the bars open during matchtime.

The loyalty of myself, family members and friends is wedded to the teachings of Christ and values of Keir Hardie, rather than to the party machine. I was one of 400,000 Scots who previously voted Labour but who voted Yes at the Referendum. Having lived in England for much of my life this wasn't a vote to break up Britain as Cameron's propaganda machine tries and fails to have us believe. Rather than it was to seize the opportunity to create a socially just Scotland working for the common weal, putting all of us first and rejecting Thatcher and Blair's 'me-first' capitalist society.

Scots haven't left the Labour Party - The Labour Party has left us!

Common Weal is a 'think and do tank' campaigning for social and economic equality in Scotland

http://www.allofusfirst.org/

[JimBHibees]

I completely understand this! I'm from a Christian family who voted Labour for generations. The founding origins of our belief systems is that society exists for all of us rather than for a select few.

If Findlay had got in as Scottish Labour leader I thing we would have had a chance of genuine socialist policies at Holyrood. But it's no good having a left wing agenda in this country if the rest of the UK party are still singing from the Blair and New Labour hymnsheet. Murphy has backed Trident, welfare sanctions, fracking and other Tory policies. He even jumped on Tory leader Ruth Davidson's bandwagon recently in support of the big wigs at Hampden and rich club owners who want to keep the bars open during matchtime.

The loyalty of myself, family members and friends is wedded to the teachings of Christ and values of Keir Hardie, rather than to the party machine. I was one of 400,000 Scots who previously voted Labour but who voted Yes at the Referendum. Having lived in England for much of my life this wasn't a vote to break up Britain as Cameron's propaganda machine struggles to have us believe. Rather than it was to seize the opportunity to create a socially just Scotland working for the common wel, putting all of us first and rejecting Thatcher and Blair's 'me-first' capitalist society.

Scots haven't left the Labour Party - The Labour Party has left us!

Common Weal is a 'think and do tank' campaigning for social and economic equality in Scotland

http://www.allofusfirst.org/

Fantastic post agree with every word.

[snooky]

I completely understand this! I'm from a Christian family who voted Labour for generations. The founding origins of our belief systems is that society exists for all of us rather than for a select few.

If Findlay had got in as Scottish Labour leader I thing we would have had a chance of genuine socialist policies at Holyrood. But it's no good having a left wing agenda in this country if the rest of the UK party are still singing from the Blair and New Labour hymnsheet. Murphy has backed Trident, welfare sanctions, fracking and other Tory policies. He even jumped on Tory leader Ruth Davidson's bandwagon recently in support of the big wigs at Hampden and rich club owners who want to keep the bars open during matchtime.

The loyalty of myself, family members and friends is wedded to the teachings of Christ and values of Keir Hardie, rather than to the party machine. I was one of 400,000 Scots who previously voted Labour but who voted Yes at the Referendum. Having lived in England for much of my life this wasn't a vote to break up Britain as Cameron's propaganda machine struggles to have us believe. Rather than it was to seize the opportunity to create a socially just Scotland working for the common wel, putting all of us first and rejecting Thatcher and Blair's 'me-first' capitalist society.

Scots haven't left the Labour Party - The Labour Party has left us!

Common Weal is a 'think and do tank' campaigning for social and economic equality in Scotland

http://www.allofusfirst.org/


"Scots haven't left the Labour Party - The Labour Party has left us!"

We can discuss the current political situation in Scotland forever however, we'll never summarise it better than the twelve words above.

[hibsbollah]

I completely understand this! I'm from a Christian family who voted Labour for generations. The founding origins of our belief systems is that society exists for all of us rather than for a select few.

If Findlay had got in as Scottish Labour leader I thing we would have had a chance of genuine socialist policies at Holyrood. But it's no good having a left wing agenda in this country if the rest of the UK party are still singing from the Blair and New Labour hymnsheet. Murphy has backed Trident, welfare sanctions, fracking and other Tory policies. He even jumped on Tory leader Ruth Davidson's bandwagon recently in support of the big wigs at Hampden and rich club owners who want to keep the bars open during matchtime.

The loyalty of myself, family members and friends is wedded to the teachings of Christ and values of Keir Hardie, rather than to the party machine. I was one of 400,000 Scots who previously voted Labour but who voted Yes at the Referendum. Having lived in England for much of my life this wasn't a vote to break up Britain as Cameron's propaganda machine struggles to have us believe. Rather than it was to seize the opportunity to create a socially just Scotland working for the common wel, putting all of us first and rejecting Thatcher and Blair's 'me-first' capitalist society.

Scots haven't left the Labour Party - The Labour Party has left us!

Common Weal is a 'think and do tank' campaigning for social and economic equality in Scotland

http://www.allofusfirst.org/

Great post.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So Murphy is going to fund 1000 new nurses from the 2,000,000 he hopes to receive from the mansion tax.

Now, staff nurses (aka registered nurses, aka trained nurses) sit in Band 5 of the NHS pay scales:

Band 5Point 16 21,478
Point 17 22,016
Point 18 22,903
Point 19 23,825
Point 20 24,799
Point 21 25,783
Point 22 26,822
Point 23 27,901

As the eagle eyed will have spotted, £2m would not pay the salaries of the lowest paid staff nurse, for one year.

Untrained, unregistered nurses (aka Care Assistants, aka Healthcare Support Nurses, aka Nursing Assistants) sit in band 2.

Point 1 14,294
Point 2 14,653
Point 3 15,013
Point 4 15,432
Point 5 15,851
Point 6 16,271
Point 7 16,811
Point 8 17,425

So, my question to the Murphster is - how long will these "nurses" work for, and will it involve a further dilution of the skills base in the NHS?

[RyeSloan]

So Murphy is going to fund 1000 new nurses from the 2,000,000 he hopes to receive from the mansion tax. Now, staff nurses (aka registered nurses, aka trained nurses) sit in Band 5 of the NHS pay scales: Band 5Point 16 21,478 Point 17 22,016 Point 18 22,903 Point 19 23,825 Point 20 24,799 Point 21 25,783 Point 22 26,822 Point 23 27,901 As the eagle eyed will have spotted, £2m would not pay the salaries of the lowest paid staff nurse, for one year. Untrained, unregistered nurses (aka Care Assistants, aka Healthcare Support Nurses, aka Nursing Assistants) sit in band 2. Point 1 14,294 Point 2 14,653 Point 3 15,013 Point 4 15,432 Point 5 15,851 Point 6 16,271 Point 7 16,811 Point 8 17,425 So, my question to the Murphster is - how long will these "nurses" work for, and will it involve a further dilution of the skills base in the NHS?

I think the simple answer is the 'mansion tax' is really just a wealth tax and once established will be quickly extended via lowering of the threshold or fiscal drag or both. The tax is proposed (although murphy seems to be the only one that thinks it will be implemented) at £2m...this would appear to be the classic case of setting a new tax at a level where the majority won't pay so it gets 'support' then once in the arguments of why £2m why not £1m so on and so forth will quickly come to the front.

But really Murphy is a twonk and will say anything that he thinks sounds good...the idea that specific taxes will pay for specific spending is just daft and just another example of how politicians are treating the NHS as some sort of electioneering play thing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the simple answer is the 'mansion tax' is really just a wealth tax and once established will be quickly extended via lowering of the threshold or fiscal drag or both. The tax is proposed (although murphy seems to be the only one that thinks it will be implemented) at £2m...this would appear to be the classic case of setting a new tax at a level where the majority won't pay so it gets 'support' then once in the arguments of why £2m why not £1m so on and so forth will quickly come to the front.

But really Murphy is a twonk and will say anything that he thinks sounds good...the idea that specific taxes will pay for specific spending is just daft and just another example of how politicians are treating the NHS as some sort of electioneering play thing.

My point exactly. Add in nonsense like 100 people a day with a mental health problem being denied benefits - another headline grabber which does not stand up to scrutiny.

The problem is how they define "mental health" problems. Putting a mildly depressed person, who maintains their function through taking SSRIs, to someone with an enduring mental illness is just wrong.


The vast majority of those suffering "chronic pain", are also deemed to be "depressed", and get an SSRI from their GP. So, most people knocked back on their physical fitness, are also deemed to be mentally ill.


They have never been admitted to an asylum, been assessed by a psychiatrist, or required the support of a CPN.


It's like talking about people with a "physical illness", and lumping in those suffering from a common cold, to those with cancer. It takes extremes and merges them all under a one size fits all banner.


It's a headline grabber, which uses a little understood group, and relegates everyone with mental illness, to the level of the pathetic.

The tactic of the modern politician seems to be repeating empty phrases such as "hard working families, "the most vulnerable in our society", and "hidden disabilities"*, and repeating them ad infinitum. People are then asked who they trust most of all to do the right thing by these groups - they are not expected to scrutinise policy, or to see evidence of a plan.


*If a disability is hidden, is it actually a disability, or a barrier that someone has managed to overcome?

[hibsbollah]

https://youtu.be/QCvn2sgvlzEEd Balls did pretty well on Andrew Marr today. The 'shake on it?' thing left Gideon looking a bit shifty (admittedly he always does a wee bit).

[The_Todd]

Today's UKIP policy for GE2015 is "Children of immigrants shouldn't be allowed State Education".

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the biggest moans about immigrants that rightwing screwnuts like UKIP have is that immigrants don't "integrate" enough. So, I'd love Mr. Farage to tell us how the children of immigrants can settle and integrate fully if they're excluded from schools? It's a bizarre policy which demonstrates a total lack of any joined up thinking in UKIP, apart from "we hate immigunts". I doubt the sanity of anyone who can't see through this transparent shower.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Today's UKIP policy for GE2015 is "Children of immigrants shouldn't be allowed State Education".

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the biggest moans about immigrants that rightwing screwnuts like UKIP have is that immigrants don't "integrate" enough. So, I'd love Mr. Farage to tell us how the children of immigrants can settle and integrate fully if they're excluded from schools? It's a bizarre policy which demonstrates a total lack of any joined up thinking in UKIP, apart from "we hate immigunts". I doubt the sanity of anyone who can't see through this transparent shower.

Education first, then public transport, then healthcare, then they'll be offered repatriation. It's not like this hasn't happened anywhere else - it's pretty easy to see where their blueprint for a fair society comes from.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Another thigh slapper from the English Sun today.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/image.jpg

I feel sorry for the English, that people like that think they speak for them.

[lord bunberry]

Today's UKIP policy for GE2015 is "Children of immigrants shouldn't be allowed State Education".

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the biggest moans about immigrants that rightwing screwnuts like UKIP have is that immigrants don't "integrate" enough. So, I'd love Mr. Farage to tell us how the children of immigrants can settle and integrate fully if they're excluded from schools? It's a bizarre policy which demonstrates a total lack of any joined up thinking in UKIP, apart from "we hate immigunts". I doubt the sanity of anyone who can't see through this transparent shower.
Worryingly people are voting for them. They're the BNP with an acceptable front.

[Geo_1875]

Worryingly people are voting for them. They're the BNP with an acceptable front.

What part of their front do you find acceptable?

[lord bunberry]

What part of their front do you find acceptable?
I mean acceptable to society in a way that the BNP isn't. If Nick Griffin came out with the stuff that Farage comes out with it wouldnt be reported in the press, but UKIP have become an acceptable part of the British political system. Imo we are really starting to see their true colours now.

[hibsbollah]

Education first, then public transport, then healthcare, then they'll be offered repatriation. It's not like this hasn't happened anywhere else - it's pretty easy to see where their blueprint for a fair society comes from.

Gold stars anyone?

UKIP are pandering to racists on a daily basis. I honestly believe there are a few ukip voters who are too naive to realise what Farage represents, that its a slow movement towards totalitarianism, but most ukip voters hold racist views and thoughts (I think a recent opinion poll backed this up). Its a very prevalent sentiment, unfortunately.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Gold stars anyone?

UKIP are pandering to racists on a daily basis. I honestly believe there are a few ukip voters who are too naive to realise what Farage represents, that its a slow movement towards totalitarianism, but most ukip voters hold racist views and thoughts (I think a recent opinion poll backed this up). Its a very prevalent sentiment, unfortunately.

They create chaos in the democratic process - hey presto democracy doesn't work! Next, we will need a strong leader to save our freedom etc.

its becoming so transparent. Farage is the stalking horse for much bigger players to come to the fore. That guy Goldsmith is a contender IMO.

[SHODAN]

Today's UKIP policy for GE2015 is "Children of immigrants shouldn't be allowed State Education".

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the biggest moans about immigrants that rightwing screwnuts like UKIP have is that immigrants don't "integrate" enough. So, I'd love Mr. Farage to tell us how the children of immigrants can settle and integrate fully if they're excluded from schools? It's a bizarre policy which demonstrates a total lack of any joined up thinking in UKIP, apart from "we hate immigunts". I doubt the sanity of anyone who can't see through this transparent shower.

That'll be Farage's own children then, given his German wife.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Wee bit mental that Milliband ruled out a coalition with the SNP today isn't it?

He won't get in without them.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wee bit mental that Milliband ruled out a coalition with the SNP today isn't it?

He won't get in without them.

Not really, going for the win rather than the draw. Only when it is a draw will either Labour or Conservative admit they need to work with other parties. Why admit you aren't going to win? Coalition is plan B

[marinello59]

Wee bit mental that Milliband ruled out a coalition with the SNP today isn't it?

He won't get in without them.

He has played that one the only way he can. A formal coalition probably won't happen but an arrangement similar to the one that the SNP entered in to with the Tories at Holyrood would suit both parties.

[Hibrandenburg]

What do people think about Sturgeon being demonized by the press for not making an appearance at the Afghanistan memorial at the weekend?

[lord bunberry]

Not really, going for the win rather than the draw. Only I when it is a draw will either Labour or Conservative admit they need to work with other parties. Why admit you aren't going to win? Coalition is plan B
Or work with each other:wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

What do people think about Sturgeon being demonized by the press for not making an appearance at the Afghanistan memorial at the weekend?

Wasn't aware she had been - got any links?

[lord bunberry]

Wasn't aware she had been - got any links?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993992/It-s-insult-say-families-SNP-chief-Nicola-Sturgeon-snubs-Afghan-war-memorial.html

[marinello59]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2993992/It-s-insult-say-families-SNP-chief-Nicola-Sturgeon-snubs-Afghan-war-memorial.html

I don't think any politician worth voting for would give a toss what the Daily Mail had to say about them. I'm not sure that a critical article in there even qualifies as demonisation by the press.

[lord bunberry]

I don't think any politician worth voting for would give a toss what the Daily Mail had to say about them. I'm not sure that a critical article in there even qualifies as demonisation by the press.
I couldn't agree more :greengrin I was merely providing a link to the story.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What do people think about Sturgeon being demonized by the press for not making an appearance at the Afghanistan memorial at the weekend?

There are only so many things the Daily Mail can get outraged about, without repeating themselves. I admire their creativity with the story.

[easty]

There are only so many things the Daily Mail can get outraged about, without repeating themselves. I admire their creativity with the story.

I like this story they've gone with today - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2998265/Have-Scottish-mutant-ginger-rats-border-Sixty-huge-rodents-seen-scurrying-street-Newcastle.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-80097561#comment-80097561

[easty]

I don't think any politician worth voting for would give a toss what the Daily Mail had to say about them. I'm not sure that a critical article in there even qualifies as demonisation by the press.

They should. You, or they, might not like the opinions of people who read it, but those people still get a vote.

[marinello59]

They should. You, or they, might not like the opinions of people who read it, but those people still get a vote.

Do you reckon Nicola Sturgeon should go on a charm offensive to win over the Daily Mail by dancing more to their tune then? Any suggestions for her? :devil:

[lord bunberry]

I like this story they've gone with today - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2998265/Have-Scottish-mutant-ginger-rats-border-Sixty-huge-rodents-seen-scurrying-street-Newcastle.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-80097561#comment-80097561
They've clearly been brought to this country by asylum seekers :greengrin

[easty]

Do you reckon Nicola Sturgeon should go on a charm offensive to win over the Daily Mail by dancing more to their tune then? Any suggestions for her? :devil:

To win over DailyMail readers.....she could blame her accent on foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs, and the EU could be to blame for her haircut.

Just little things like that. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

I like this story they've gone with today - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2998265/Have-Scottish-mutant-ginger-rats-border-Sixty-huge-rodents-seen-scurrying-street-Newcastle.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-80097561#comment-80097561

They are beginning to grasp their brief. Looking forward to a free deep fried Mars Bar for every reader.


Do you reckon Nicola Sturgeon should go on a charm offensive to win over the Daily Mail by dancing more to their tune then? Any suggestions for her? :devil:

Say she has a cure for Dementia?

[snooky]

They are beginning to grasp their brief. Looking forward to a free deep fried Mars Bar for every reader.



Say she has a cure for Dementia?

She could say she's found a cure for cynicism but then add that she doesn't think it will work. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

He has played that one the only way he can. A formal coalition probably won't happen but an arrangement similar to the one that the SNP entered in to with the Tories at Holyrood would suit both parties.

The SNP minority never had a C&S deal with any of the other parties. Every vote was case by case, including the budgets, with something approaching consensus usually reached. The big exception being 2009 when the Greens and Tories were expected to vote in favour but the Greens pulled out. However, rather than face an election, Lab and the LDs caved.

[marinello59]

The SNP minority never had a C&S deal with any of the other parties. Every vote was case by case, including the budgets, with something approaching consensus usually reached. The big exception being 2009 when the Greens and Tories were expected to vote in favour but the Greens pulled out. However, rather than face an election, Lab and the LDs caved.

Sorry, I forgot how sensitive SNP supporters could be about any mention of working with the Tories.:greengrin
I merely mentioned is as I think it is a good example of how a minority Governmrnt can be made to work without formal coalitions. It certainly worked well up here.

[Bristolhibby]

Not really, going for the win rather than the draw. Only when it is a draw will either Labour or Conservative admit they need to work with other parties. Why admit you aren't going to win? Coalition is plan B

It's abit like the currency plan B during the reffrendum. Except this time Ed is sticking to his plan A, instead of howling for a plan B.

IMO it's a way of him trying to shore up his Scottish votes.

Except Labours mantra of vote SNP get Cameron dosent add up as The bulk of Scottish MPs currently are Labour MPs and we still got Cameron.

J

[Bristolhibby]

To win over DailyMail readers.....she could blame her accent on foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs, and the EU could be to blame for her haircut.

Just little things like that. :greengrin

http://youtu.be/768h3Tz4Qik

J

[Phil D. Rolls]

I see so many similarities between the Scottish Sun and The Sun. Could they possibly be related?

http://wingsoverscotland.com/cross-vortex-perspectives/

[Hibrandenburg]

They should. You, or they, might not like the opinions of people who read it, but those people still get a vote.

That's the way I see it. Also if they're stupid enough to buy that rag then they're stupid enough to believe it.

Heard rumours she was attending the Dunblane memorial but can't find anything to back that up.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sorry, I forgot how sensitive SNP supporters could be about any mention of working with the Tories.:greengrin
I merely mentioned is as I think it is a good example of how a minority Governmrnt can be made to work without formal coalitions. It certainly worked well up here.

SNP supporter? I don't even agree with the council tax freeze*! :wink:

I agree with you re minority government. I thought Holyrood functioned better during that period and both the SNP and the opposition parties handled it reasonably well.

* think I got away with that mention. :offski:

[steakbake]

That's the way I see it. Also if they're stupid enough to buy that rag then they're stupid enough to believe it.

Heard rumours she was attending the Dunblane memorial but can't find anything to back that up.

She was at a COSLA meeting in Crieff.

That aside, we have the annual Remembrance Day on the 11th November - which, if you criticise it, is often defended as being an event that commemorates the loss of life in all conflicts and not just WW1. She has no doubt attended all sorts of events like that in her political life.

Something here just smells like hacks looking to find something to bump their gums about on behalf of "snubbed" families.

If you want to talk about 'snubbed' families, we could look into the state of post-conflict care that service personnel coming back from our various military misadventures receive and quite why there is such a need for "Help for Heroes" and similar.

[johnbc70]

I think the Budget will massively help the Tory vote. George has played it well.

The new Help to Buy ISA is a great idea.

[steakbake]

I think the Budget will massively help the Tory vote. George has played it well.

The new Help to Buy ISA is a great idea.

Shoring up the base, I think. The next couple weeks of polls will be interesting. I think he's possibly done enough to swing it into the Tories being biggest party again, but no-one will have nearly enough to form a government - and that's where it'll get interesting.

[RIP]

She was at a COSLA meeting in Crieff.

That aside, we have the annual Remembrance Day on the 11th November - which, if you criticise it, is often defended as being an event that commemorates the loss of life in all conflicts and not just WW1. She has no doubt attended all sorts of events like that in her political life.

Something here just smells like hacks looking to find something to bump their gums about on behalf of "snubbed" families.

If you want to talk about 'snubbed' families, we could look into the state of post-conflict care that service personnel coming back from our various military misadventures receive and quite why there is such a need for "Help for Heroes" and similar.

Keith Brown represented the Scottish Government. Former marine commando. Fought in the Falklands.

Snub my arse!

[hibsbollah]

I think the Budget will massively help the Tory vote. George has played it well.

The new Help to Buy ISA is a great idea.

Its tinkering round the edges of the problem, which is a massive undersupply of new homes driving up prices. Until a major partyaddresses this problem by actually BUILDING new local authority owned houses, nothing will change. Its only the Greens (who you wouldn't normally think of us as natural house builders) who have this as a policy.

[RyeSloan]

Its tinkering round the edges of the problem, which is a massive undersupply of new homes driving up prices. Until a major partyaddresses this problem by actually BUILDING new local authority owned houses, nothing will change. Its only the Greens (who you wouldn't normally think of us as natural house builders) who have this as a policy.

It doesn't have to be local authority owned houses though does it...and considering the state many local authorities managed to get their housing stock into I'm not automatically gonna jump to the conclusion publicly financed and run housing stock is any answer at all. (Sure that shocked ya!)

What we really need is the removal of the green belt...oh I know the green lobby won't like that but there is not one policy that comes anywhere near the green belt in terms of being responsible for high house prices. Housing is expensive in the UK because land with planning permission is so much more expensive than land without...remove some of that government caused discrepancy (they after all impose the green belt policy and the planning restrictions) and you remove the ludicrous cost of new housing.

Very very typical of governments to try and solve a problem of their own making by giving away more of the nations tax take...instead of taking on public liability for first time buyers mortgages and now giving direct cash support they should tackle the root of the problem. But as ever easier to provide a cash sop with other people's money than take on the vested interests that would noisily attack the fundamental change that is needed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Its tinkering round the edges of the problem, which is a massive undersupply of new homes driving up prices. Until a major partyaddresses this problem by actually BUILDING new local authority owned houses, nothing will change. Its only the Greens (who you wouldn't normally think of us as natural house builders) who have this as a policy.

As a Daily Mail reader, and Tory voter, I was wondering if you could tell me how this is a problem? :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-31996399


The Independent recalls: "A week (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/labour-open-to-the-charge-of-hypocrisy-after-failing-to-divulge-hedge-fund-managers-donation-10124387.html) after Mr Miliband met Mr Taylor in 2013 and after Labour had accepted £200,000 from the businessman, the Labour leader attacked David Cameron in Prime Minister's Questions for being a party funded by hedge funds while Labour got its funds from 'ordinary people up and down this country' paying '6p a week in affiliation fees'."


what an utter hypocrite of a man silliband is, i reckon he's a cert to end up in the house of lords one day, god help the island of britain if this man ever gets a shot at being prime minister

[danhibees1875]

I think the Budget will massively help the Tory vote. George has played it well.

The new Help to Buy ISA is a great idea.

I like the help to buy ISA as a concept. It'll be interesting to see if house prices jump as a result though.

[marinello59]

Its tinkering round the edges of the problem, which is a massive undersupply of new homes driving up prices. Until a major partyaddresses this problem by actually BUILDING new local authority owned houses, nothing will change. Its only the Greens (who you wouldn't normally think of us as natural house builders) who have this as a policy.

The money received from all council house sales should have been re-invested in new housing stock, whether that was council homes or affordable housing. That it wasn't was extremely short sighted.
If ever a policy exposed the myth that the average voter in Thatcher hating Scotland had different concerns from the average voter across the UK it was Right to Buy. Scots jumped in just as enthusiastically as anyone else when it came to snapping up the best puic housing stock at a knock down price. Even Granny's house was fair game. I'm not so sure that people will ever want to rent in the numbers that they did when I was a kid.
Land reform is needed urgently. Whilst people on our Islands etc are priced out of the housing market largely due to prohibitive land prices we have large low tax estates doing nothing more than provide a playground for those lucky enough to inherit them. Thankfully the SNP are in the case, it's just a start though.

[hibsbollah]

The money received from all council house sales should have been re-invested in new housing stock, whether that was council homes or affordable housing. That it wasn't was extremely short sighted.
If ever a policy exposed the myth that the average voter in Thatcher hating Scotland had different concerns from the average voter across the UK it was Right to Buy. Scots jumped in just as enthusiastically as anyone else when it came to snapping up the best puic housing stock at a knock down price. Even Granny's house was fair game. I'm not so sure that people will ever want to rent in the numbers that they did when I was a kid.
Land reform is needed urgently. Whilst people on our Islands etc are priced out of the housing market largely due to prohibitive land prices we have large low tax estates doing nothing more than provide a playground for those lucky enough to inherit them. Thankfully the SNP are in the case, it's just a start though.

I agree completely with your first paragraph. In relation to your second point and Right to Buy, it isn't surprising that people jumped in and took advantage of the sell off, and I don't join in any criticism of those who did, it would have been stupid not to. Also, there seems to have been a stigma about council houses and 'schemes' in Scotland in the 80s that turned the stream of sales into a flood. I don't know when and how this cultural shift happened but it certainly made things worse.

As Filled Rolls hinted at earlier, from a UK wide perspective nothing is likely to change because a shrinking housing stock, and artificially higher prices, means the older, wealthier, house owning class (who are more likely to vote)stay broadly content with the status quo.

[marinello59]

I agree completely with your first paragraph. In relation to your second point and Right to Buy, it isn't surprising that people jumped in and took advantage of the sell off, and I don't join in any criticism of those who did, it would have been stupid not to. Also, there seems to have been a stigma about council houses and 'schemes' in Scotland in the 80s that turned the stream of sales into a flood. I don't know when and how this cultural shift happened but it certainly made things worse.

As Filled Rolls hinted at earlier, from a UK wide perspective nothing is likely to change because a shrinking housing stock, and artificially higher prices, means the older, wealthier, house owning class (who are more likely to vote)stay broadly content with the status quo.

I'm not criticising anybody who took advantage of Right to Buy. I would criticise the policy itself though. Just pointing out it was a policy introduced by Thatcher that was very popular in Scotland.
I'd disagree about the stigma of living in council housing drove the increase in home ownership. It was more a case that owning your own home became easier for a variety of reasons.

[Hibby Bairn]

I agree completely with your first paragraph. In relation to your second point and Right to Buy, it isn't surprising that people jumped in and took advantage of the sell off, and I don't join in any criticism of those who did, it would have been stupid not to. Also, there seems to have been a stigma about council houses and 'schemes' in Scotland in the 80s that turned the stream of sales into a flood. I don't know when and how this cultural shift happened but it certainly made things worse.

As Filled Rolls hinted at earlier, from a UK wide perspective nothing is likely to change because a shrinking housing stock, and artificially higher prices, means the older, wealthier, house owning class (who are more likely to vote)stay broadly content with the status quo.

Re last para. A further knock on effect will be a bias towards the children of the property owning class having more opportunity to buy in the future as parents can use equity to help or guarantee mortgages for them. This is probably taking us back 100 years but it is the aspiring middle class as well as traditional "upper" class that is now able to do it. But I worry where it is taking us. I can see "children" living with parents into their 30s.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Re last para. A further knock on effect will be a bias towards the children of the property owning class having more opportunity to buy in the future as parents can use equity to help or guarantee mortgages for them. This is probably taking us back 100 years but it is the aspiring middle class as well as traditional "upper" class that is now able to do it. But I worry where it is taking us. I can see "children" living with parents into their 30s.

Pretty much the way it's going. I'm not sure whether it's easier for the younger generation to stay in the family home, or whether it's a case that they can't be bothered saving for things.

Before the 80s and the easy mortgage culture, people had to save for deposits - usually 10% of the purchase price. Now people are making out that it's a travesty.

[Pretty Boy]

Pretty much the way it's going. I'm not sure whether it's easier for the younger generation to stay in the family home, or whether it's a case that they can't be bothered saving for things.

Before the 80s and the easy mortgage culture, people had to save for deposits - usually 10% of the purchase price. Now people are making out that it's a travesty.

It's not so much a case of can't be bothered saving for things as simply can't.

I live with my girlfriend in a 1 bedroom rented flat, decent location, pleasant enough but totally overpriced. Factor in council tax, light and heat and insurance and 50% of my monthly salary is gone before I even put a meal on the table. What's the other option? Move myself and my girlfriend into my parents home at nearly 30 years old? Not really an option for either party.

We both gave up our cars over a year ago as the cost of insurance, fuel and a parking permit made it unaffordable. No credit cards, any luxuries, be that a break away, new clothes or a meal out, we want we save for.

I'd say given our situation far from being a travesty it's a ****ing miracle we have managed to accumulate 4 figure savings, still nowhere near enough for a deposit for a house but it's a start. I hardly know anyone of my age who owns their own home, the majority are hard working, sensible sorts but are caught in the private rental trap.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's not so much a case of can't be bothered saving for things as simply can't.

I live with my girlfriend in a 1 bedroom rented flat, decent location, pleasant enough but totally overpriced. Factor in council tax, light and heat and insurance and 50% of my monthly salary is gone before I even put a meal on the table. What's the other option? Move myself and my girlfriend into my parents home at nearly 30 years old? Not really an option for either party.

We both gave up our cars over a year ago as the cost of insurance, fuel and a parking permit made it unaffordable. No credit cards, any luxuries, be that a break away, new clothes or a meal out, we want we save for.

I'd say given our situation far from being a travesty it's a ****ing miracle we have managed to accumulate 4 figure savings, still nowhere near enough for a deposit for a house but it's a start. I hardly know anyone of my age who owns their own home, the majority are hard working, sensible sorts but are caught in the private rental trap.

I get you, and it's a different world now from 30 years ago. A car would have been seen as a luxury then, whereas nowadays it's hard to live without one.

[johnbc70]

It's not so much a case of can't be bothered saving for things as simply can't.

I live with my girlfriend in a 1 bedroom rented flat, decent location, pleasant enough but totally overpriced. Factor in council tax, light and heat and insurance and 50% of my monthly salary is gone before I even put a meal on the table. What's the other option? Move myself and my girlfriend into my parents home at nearly 30 years old? Not really an option for either party.

We both gave up our cars over a year ago as the cost of insurance, fuel and a parking permit made it unaffordable. No credit cards, any luxuries, be that a break away, new clothes or a meal out, we want we save for.

I'd say given our situation far from being a travesty it's a ****ing miracle we have managed to accumulate 4 figure savings, still nowhere near enough for a deposit for a house but it's a start. I hardly know anyone of my age who owns their own home, the majority are hard working, sensible sorts but are caught in the private rental trap.

Sounds like a Help to Buy ISA would be perfect for you. Government tops up 25% anything you put in. If you and your girlfriend take out one each the maximum amount you can get is £6,000 towards a new house.

[RyeSloan]

Sounds like a Help to Buy ISA would be perfect for you. Government tops up 25% anything you put in. If you and your girlfriend take out one each the maximum amount you can get is £6,000 towards a new house.

I'm sure anyone who benefits from this will love it but the more I see of this plan the more it makes me cry...seriously on what planet does anyone think governments topping up people's savings with tax payers money to help them buy a house is a good idea? The issues with the property market are on the supply side yet here we have direct government cash injection on the demand side, my gasted is totally flabbered it really is.

[The_Todd]

Pretty much the way it's going. I'm not sure whether it's easier for the younger generation to stay in the family home, or whether it's a case that they can't be bothered saving for things.

Before the 80s and the easy mortgage culture, people had to save for deposits - usually 10% of the purchase price. Now people are making out that it's a travesty.


Before the 80's and "easy mortgages" what was the average house price? The current average house price in Scotland is around £167,000 and in England and Wales is £180,000. 10% of that is an enormous amount of money to save up.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Before the 80's and "easy mortgages" what was the average house price? The current average house price in Scotland is around £167,000 and in England and Wales is £180,000. 10% of that is an enormous amount of money to save up.

I can't say - I know I was making about £5k a year, and bought a flat in Canonmills for £15,000.

[The_Todd]

I can't say - I know I was making about £5k a year, and bought a flat in Canonmills for £15,000.

A one bedroom flat in Canonmills would now set you back £110k plus. Two bedrooms maybe £170k, £180k. I know wages have gone up but not enough to keep up with how much you'd need to save for a 10% deposit on that. £15k was three times your £5k salary. To have a £180k property on three times your salary you'd need to be on £60k, which is three times the average salary.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A one bedroom flat in Canonmills would now set you back £110k plus. Two bedrooms maybe £170k, £180k. I know wages have gone up but not enough to keep up with how much you'd need to save for a 10% deposit on that. £15k was three times your £5k salary. To have a £180k property on three times your salary you'd need to be on £60k, which is three times the average salary.

I think that Canonmills then would be equivalent to Fisherrow, or Dalkeith now. The area has gentrified.

I do take your point, that the price of property in general is becoming out of the range of the lower paid worker.

But of course, that's exactly what Blair and his hoodlums [c. Daily Record (some names have been changed to protect the innocent] kicked off with the whole buy to let agenda.

[JeMeSouviens]

Murphy's slimy ways still making absolutely no dent in the polling ...

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Slide15.jpg

[snooky]

The more easy money is available the higher the house prices go.
We need more new houses - a lot more - to bring the market prices down.
Maybe there's a good case for new council house schemes at reasonable rents.:dunno:

[Bristolhibby]

A one bedroom flat in Canonmills would now set you back £110k plus. Two bedrooms maybe £170k, £180k. I know wages have gone up but not enough to keep up with how much you'd need to save for a 10% deposit on that. £15k was three times your £5k salary. To have a £180k property on three times your salary you'd need to be on £60k, which is three times the average salary.

This is the staggering stat.

In my folks day they could afford a house on one wage. Now two good wages are required and even then you have to save like fwck and cripple yourself with mortgage payments.

J

[Geo_1875]

This is the staggering stat.

In my folks day they could afford a house on one wage. Now two good wages are required and even then you have to save like fwck and cripple yourself with mortgage payments.

J

That's when there were rules on amounts that could be loaned. 10% deposit for a house, 30% deposit for a car. The fact that there wasn't easily available money in the system kept house prices reasonable. Then it became more mortgages than houses available so prices had to rise. A totally artificial situation which keeps people spending (and owing) and property prices rising. It is a capitalist dream. They don't want people saving money, they want them spending. That allows them to cream off as much as possible.

[snooky]

That's when there were rules on amounts that could be loaned. 10% deposit for a house, 30% deposit for a car. The fact that there wasn't easily available money in the system kept house prices reasonable. Then it became more mortgages than houses available so prices had to rise. A totally artificial situation which keeps people spending (and owing) and property prices rising. It is a capitalist dream. They don't want people saving money, they want them spending. That allows them to cream off as much as possible.

Lawyers' and Estate Agents' fees are %age of the purchase price are they not?
They just love the price escalation of housing.

I remember years ago (mid 1970's?) a lawyer saying during a telly interview they were raising their percentage charge from (say) 5% to 6% to keep up with inflation. The interviewer never even pointed out the obvious flaw in this statement.

[Geo_1875]

Lawyers' and Estate Agents' fees are %age of the purchase price are they not?
They just love the price escalation of housing.

I remember years ago (mid 1970's?) a lawyer saying during a telly interview they were raising their percentage charge from (say) 5% to 6% to keep up with inflation. The interviewer never even pointed out the obvious flaw in this statement.

Don't get me started on inflation. Supposedly we've now got zero inflation. Probably because the incredibly low cost of lilies (FFS!!!) has offset the increases hitting ordinary people left right and centre. Whichever measure of inflation they use is a bag of ***** to peddle the lies of whichever party is in power.

[Beefster]

Don't get me started on inflation. Supposedly we've now got zero inflation. Probably because the incredibly low cost of lilies (FFS!!!) has offset the increases hitting ordinary people left right and centre. Whichever measure of inflation they use is a bag of ***** to peddle the lies of whichever party is in power.

I wouldn't call food, technology and fuel, all of which have contributed to the latest inflation figure, a bag of ***** tbh.

[Mikey09]

On the Election it seems to me Wee Eck has the Tories and Labour by the Bawes!! How ironic after the smug pricks faces after the referendum.... :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

On the Election it seems to me Wee Eck has the Tories and Labour by the Bawes!! How ironic after the smug pricks faces after the referendum.... :greengrin

I thought it was only the English that didn't realise that Wee Eck is no longer SNP leader. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Oh dear Milliband looked a right tube at PMQ's today with his VAT question then not being able to respond on NI...only for the other Ed to come running out after to say there would be no NI rise.

Clearly you can't trust any politician on taxes but Labour done a grand job of making it look like they were just making it up as they went along.

And we are not talking obscure policies here, not to be able to clearly articulate your position on fundamental taxes like NI is rather concerning 1 month before a GE!

[Stranraer]

According to Polling report, the UKIP support is decreasing which I believe to be good news but the Greens support is also dropping.

I wonder how good an MP Caroline Lucas has been for Brighton, I do hope she can fight off the Labour opposition.

[Mikey09]

I thought it was only the English that didn't realise that Wee Eck is no longer SNP leader. :greengrin


Was just at the wind up rolls!! :thumbsup:

[xyz23jc]

I thought it was only the English that didn't realise that Wee Eck is no longer SNP leader. :greengrin

Still a few in Holyrood who haven't grasped that concept either! ;>

[Phil D. Rolls]

The more easy money is available the higher the house prices go.
We need more new houses - a lot more - to bring the market prices down.
Maybe there's a good case for new council house schemes at reasonable rents.:dunno:

I suspect anything that brings house prices down, wouldn't scan well with the majority of voters.


Oh dear Milliband looked a right tube at PMQ's today with his VAT question then not being able to respond on NI...only for the other Ed to come running out after to say there would be no NI rise.

Clearly you can't trust any politician on taxes but Labour done a grand job of making it look like they were just making it up as they went along.

And we are not talking obscure policies here, not to be able to clearly articulate your position on fundamental taxes like NI is rather concerning 1 month before a GE!

What's the point of wasting time on policies when you know you are unelectable?


Was just at the wind up rolls!! :thumbsup:

:blushie:


Still a few in Holyrood who haven't grasped that concept either! ;>

Do you mean Scottish Labour? They haven't grasped the concept that it's not the 1960s anymore.

[Mikey09]

Sky News just now.... Cameron, Miliband debate. Paxman took about half a second to get Cameron rockin back on his heels! :faf:

[Hiber-nation]

Aw shut up Cameron.

In fact shut up Paxman.

Back the the France v Brazil game...

[Mon Dieu4]

Aw shut up Cameron.

In fact shut up Paxman.

Back the the France v Brazil game...

Normally I'm no fan of Paxman but I thoroughly enjoyed him making call me Dave squirm:greengrin

[Mikey09]

Normally I'm no fan of Paxman but I thoroughly enjoyed him making call me Dave squirm:greengrin


Same.... Pacman is a tool. So he's in good company with those other tools. But enjoyed him make Dave squirm in his seat.

[SneakersO'Toole]

Milliband is getting ripped for bog roll here. How anyone could vote for this fool is beyond me.

[bawheid]

Actually think he's doing better than Cameron.

[JimBHibees]

Actually think he's doing better than Cameron.

Agree thought Cameron was appalling. Paxman is an erse not sure why he felt the need to ask Ed, whether he was ok at the end.

[Chibs]

Paxman is the real deal.

:not worth

[Tyler Durden]

Agree thought Cameron was appalling. Paxman is an erse not sure why he felt the need to ask Ed, whether he was ok at the end.

I think Paxman crossed the line with some of his personal comments to Miliband, totally unnecessary.

Seemed very clear to me that Miliband came out better, despite Burleys embarrassing bias. Can only assume the producers told her to up the ante after the dull audience section with Cameron.

(Edited due to initial poor wording!)

[JimBHibees]

I think Paxman crossed the line with some of his personal comments to Miliband, totally unnecessary.

Seemed very clear to me that Miliband came out better, despite Burleys embarrassing bias. Can only assume the producers told her to up the ante after the dull audience section with Cameron.

(Edited due to initial poor wording!)

Burleys coy smile when Dave mentioned his kids was cringeworthy. No doubt regularly round for tea and scones at Chez cameron.

[Mikey09]

I think Paxman crossed the line with some of his personal comments to Miliband, totally unnecessary.

Seemed very clear to me that Miliband came out better, despite Burleys embarrassing bias. Can only assume the producers told her to up the ante after the dull audience section with Cameron.

(Edited due to initial poor wording!)


This show started off bad and Paxman, as usual, made it all about him. The final half hour was a circus. Pathetic. His name calling towards Miliband was childish. On tonight alone I would say Miliband talked a lot better than Cameron. Did I say Paxman was a clown.:clown:

[easty]

I'm not going to vote for him but Jim Murphy has come accross pretty well on Question Time, far better than Nicky Morgan who has struggled to answer any questions.

Then there's Janet Street Porter, a total pain in the erse, who I'd never invite on Question Time if it was up to me.

[cabbageandribs1875]

murphy 'alex salmond likes the sound of his own voice' :faf: aye ok crateboy :kettle:

[snooky]

This show started off bad and Paxman, as usual, made it all about him. The final half hour was a circus. Pathetic. His name calling towards Miliband was childish. On tonight alone I would say Miliband talked a lot better than Cameron. Did I say Paxman was a clown.:clown:

Don't like Paxman. His name sounds too much like Taxman.
End of. :kdarts:

[Tyler Durden]

I'm not going to vote for him but Jim Murphy has come accross pretty well on Question Time, far better than Nicky Morgan who has struggled to answer any questions.

Then there's Janet Street Porter, a total pain in the erse, who I'd never invite on Question Time if it was up to me.

She would do wonders for the independence campaign, old Janet! A worrying grasp on democracy.

Only watch QT periodically but find it increasingly depressing, it's a perpetual cycle of the same arguments and ignorance.

[Tyler Durden]

She would do wonders for the independence campaign, old Janet! A worrying grasp on democracy.

Only watch QT periodically but find it increasingly depressing, it's a perpetual cycle of the same arguments and ignorance.

And right on cue, a white guy bemoaning the culture of positive discrimination followed by a question on Jeremy Clarkson.

Ugh:rolleyes:

[snooky]

Agree thought Cameron was appalling. Paxman is an erse not sure why he felt the need to ask Ed, whether he was ok at the end.

Just watched the highlights.
Re. the last comment above, I think Paxman was slightly extracting the urine as poor Ed was sitting with a pouted lip at the end like a chastised child.
Having said that, much as I don't like him, I thought EM upped his street cred while DC & Paxman did the opposite.
The whole political ensemble could best be described as "Liars' R Us"

[hibsbollah]

Back to the campaign...
I understand the importance of negative campaigning, been with us since the days of Nixon -Kennedy and probably before, etc etc. But its the total braindead, lowest common denominator negativity in the UK campaign that I thought we might have moved away from. Supposedly parties these days just listen to focus groups. But focus groups are telling the parties that voters hate negative campaigning. So why do they do it? :grr: I have a mini rain forest from New Labour in my post box saying only a vote for them can stop The Tories. I also have a Tory leaflet saying only a vote for the Tories can stop the SNP :faf:

Although of course if we had a well organised far right party waiting to take advantage of this collapse of democratic legitimacy, it wouldn't be funny at all. Its profoundly depressing how low democracy has sunk, and how we've allowed it to.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm not going to vote for him but Jim Murphy has come accross pretty well on Question Time, far better than Nicky Morgan who has struggled to answer any questions.

Then there's Janet Street Porter, a total pain in the erse, who I'd never invite on Question Time if it was up to me.

Murphy played well to an audience and a panel who have a vague grasp of the Scottish question. Clearly he was most at home fighting for UK labour - pretty lame defence of the Barnett formula.

Street-Porter is nothing more than a vulgar boor. Whatever show she is on she displays a galling lack of good manners.

She did a programme about devolution before the referendum. I thought it was quite good, but it was clear that she had no grasp of the real issues and saw it as being about Scotland not liking England any more. This from a woman who claims she loves Scotland as she comes here so much.

As for Dimbleby, "Bolton doesn't have a Barnett Formula" - well big news JD neither does Edinburgh, Dundee or Drumnadrochit. The ignorance of UK politicians and broadcasters about what the UK actually is apalls me.

[Mikey09]

Murphy played well to an audience and a panel who have a vague grasp of the Scottish question. Clearly he was most at home fighting for UK labour - pretty lame defence of the Barnett formula.

Street-Porter is nothing more than a vulgar boor. Whatever show she is on she displays a galling lack of good manners.

She did a programme about devolution before the referendum. I thought it was quite good, but it was clear that she had no grasp of the real issues and saw it as being about Scotland not liking England any more. This from a woman who claims she loves Scotland as she comes here so much.

As for Dimbleby, "Bolton doesn't have a Barnett Formula" - well big news JD neither does Edinburgh, Dundee or Drumnadrochit. The ignorance of UK politicians and broadcasters about what the UK actually is apalls me.


And this is why people can't be arsed with politics or voting. The voting public could learn a lot from live debates, which last night wasn't I know. They promise so much but rapidly turn into petty point scoring. How hard can it be to answer a question properly, giving facts and telling us how they will deliver there promises? Imagine adopting there ways in a job interview?! You would be laughed out the room!!

[Kato]

[/B]


And this is why people can't be arsed with politics or voting. The voting public could learn a lot from live debates, which last night wasn't I know. They promise so much but rapidly turn into petty point scoring. How hard can it be to answer a question properly, giving facts and telling us how they will deliver there promises? Imagine adopting there ways in a job interview?! You would be laughed out the room!!

I was brought up being told the Art of Politics was in not answering a question and the nuance of the Art was to turn the question into an attack on your political opponent - I also think I was brought up pretty well informed in that.

In that way, at the moment, we actually have some of the best politicians we've ever had.

[Geo_1875]

I was brought up being told the Art of Politics was in not answering a question and the nuance of the Art was to turn the question into an attack on your political opponent - I also think I was brought up pretty well informed in that.

In that way, at the moment, we actually have some of the best politicians we've ever had.

I particularly liked the bit when Cameron said "But that's not the question...." and Paxman responded with "But it's the question I'm asking you".

Cameron was stopped in his tracks for all of half a second before he answered the question he wished he'd been asked.

[Kato]

I particularly liked the bit when Cameron said "But that's not the question...." and Paxman responded with "But it's the question I'm asking you".

Cameron was stopped in his tracks for all of half a second before he answered the question he wished he'd been asked.

Slippier than a snake called "Oily" doing work experience at the baby-oil factory.

[snooky]

Slippier than a snake called "Oily" doing work experience at the baby-oil factory.

The most commomly used diversion phrase is "Ah, but the important issue here is ...." followed by some drivel that has nothing to do with the original uncomfortable question.
All politicians use this ploy & it does my head in.
Just answer the bleeding question ya slimey ratbag.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The most commomly used diversion phrase is "Ah, but the important issue here is ...." followed by some drivel that has nothing to do with the original uncomfortable question.
All politicians use this ploy & it does my head in.
Just answer the bleeding question ya slimey ratbag.

Murphy looked a bit more relaxed on QT last night. Could it be because he was able to squirm out of important questions about Scotland, on the grounds that it's the first time he's understood the brief better than those asking the questions?

(he was very animated when talking about UK issues though - so fair play, maybe he's in the wrong job, that's all).

[NAE NOOKIE]

I agree completely with your first paragraph. In relation to your second point and Right to Buy, it isn't surprising that people jumped in and took advantage of the sell off, and I don't join in any criticism of those who did, it would have been stupid not to. Also, there seems to have been a stigma about council houses and 'schemes' in Scotland in the 80s that turned the stream of sales into a flood. I don't know when and how this cultural shift happened but it certainly made things worse.

As Filled Rolls hinted at earlier, from a UK wide perspective nothing is likely to change because a shrinking housing stock, and artificially higher prices, means the older, wealthier, house owning class (who are more likely to vote)stay broadly content with the status quo.

I don't blame folk who jumped on the right to buy bandwagon either, you would be mental to turn down the chance to buy something worth 80K for 15K

However, the social downside of the policy to sell but not build has been to create nothing short of socially deprived ghettos. Take Galashiels as an example, a town of 12,000 people. There were several very nice areas of 2 and 3 bedroom semi detached houses which were wholly council owned ... people with families who could never hope to buy could aspire to the hope that sooner or later they might get a shot at a nice house with a garden, in a good area.

A few years after the Thatcher right to buy revolution all of the nice areas were in private ownership and all that was left to the next wave of people looking for somewhere decent to live, but who couldn't afford to buy, was the worst parts of the poorest areas where nobody had wanted to buy or still couldn't afford to even with the discount.

I currently live in an ex council house in a nice area ... there are about 300 houses in the area of which barely a handful are still owned by social housing groups. I feel very sorry for folk who now cant afford to buy who are left with 2 pretty unpalatable options.

1) ... Accept a run down flat in a run down area where chances are you will be within hearing distance of at least one anti social person or family.

2) ... Rent privately at a rent considerably higher than that for social housing, leaving you little scope to save for a deposit for a house.

I'm glad to say that lately there has been an outbreak of new builds in the area, a mixture of social and private housing which I hope will make life better for those who could never afford to buy but deserve a nice place to live for them and their kids.

Thatcher's right to buy policy without putting the money back into building was a social disaster IMO and probably did more to polarise people and communities between affluent and deprived than anything I can think of.

[Thegreenside]

Am I the only one shocked by blatant hatred towards Scottish or welsh? For example a coalition a labour/lib dem coalition would be fine even if there where no seats picked up by the lib dems in scotland, but a labour/snp would be a disaster? Some United Kingdom when our voice is worth less...

[snooky]

I don't blame folk who jumped on the right to buy bandwagon either, you would be mental to turn down the chance to buy something worth 80K for 15K

However, the social downside of the policy to sell but not build has been to create nothing short of socially deprived ghettos. Take Galashiels as an example, a town of 12,000 people. There were several very nice areas of 2 and 3 bedroom semi detached houses which were wholly council owned ... people with families who could never hope to buy could aspire to the hope that sooner or later they might get a shot at a nice house with a garden, in a good area.

A few years after the Thatcher right to buy revolution all of the nice areas were in private ownership and all that was left to the next wave of people looking for somewhere decent to live, but who couldn't afford to buy, was the worst parts of the poorest areas where nobody had wanted to buy or still couldn't afford to even with the discount.

I currently live in an ex council house in a nice area ... there are about 300 houses in the area of which barely a handful are still owned by social housing groups. I feel very sorry for folk who now cant afford to buy who are left with 2 pretty unpalatable options.

1) ... Accept a run down flat in a run down area where chances are you will be within hearing distance of at least one anti social person or family.

2) ... Rent privately at a rent considerably higher than that for social housing, leaving you little scope to save for a deposit for a house.

I'm glad to say that lately there has been an outbreak of new builds in the area, a mixture of social and private housing which I hope will make life better for those who could never afford to buy but deserve a nice place to live for them and their kids.

Thatcher's right to buy policy without putting the money back into building was a social disaster IMO and probably did more to polarise people and communities between affluent and deprived than anything I can think of.

Can't believe I'm condoning anything MT did however, the right to buy was a good idea, IMO. It gave lower income people the chance to own their homes. It certainly gave some the incentive to spend money on their house knowing it wasn't for someone else's benefit. The big mistake the council/government made was not to invest all the monies received back into building social housing.
Some may argue that it was not financially good sense to sell houses cheap then replace them by building homes at building prices at that time.
While I can see that point, the big picture for society in general was that the rebuild option would have proved worth it in the long run.

[Geo_1875]

Am I the only one shocked by blatant hatred towards Scottish or welsh? For example a coalition a labour/lib dem coalition would be fine even if there where no seats picked up by the lib dems in scotland, but a labour/snp would be a disaster? Some United Kingdom when our voice is worth less...

That's what gets me. They fought so hard to keep us in the Union yet they so obviously despise us. And that's just the Scottish politicians.

[Geo_1875]

Can't believe I'm condoning anything MT did however, the right to buy was a good idea, IMO. It gave lower income people the chance to own their homes. It certainly gave some the incentive to spend money on their house knowing it wasn't for someone else's benefit. The big mistake the council/government made was not to invest all the monies received back into building social housing.
Some may argue that it was not financially good sense to sell houses cheap then replace them by building homes at building prices at that time.
While I can see that point, the big picture for society in general was that the rebuild option would have proved worth it in the long run.

It was simply a Tory ruse to get rid of social housing and the associated cost to central government. That and the hope that the new home owners would turn into Tory voters,

[snooky]

That's what gets me. They fought so hard to keep us in the Union yet they so obviously despise us. And that's just the Scottish politicians.

Please amend ...
"They fought so hard to keep us in the Union yet they so obviously despise us"
to
"They fought so hard to keep our natural resources yet obviously despise us"
Thank you. :cool2:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Am I the only one shocked by blatant hatred towards Scottish or welsh? For example a coalition a labour/lib dem coalition would be fine even if there where no seats picked up by the lib dems in scotland, but a labour/snp would be a disaster? Some United Kingdom when our voice is worth less...

It's there, but we have to acknowledge that they have just worked out some aren't happy with the status quo. Seems to be based on shock and ignorance rather than any real agenda against us.

One thing's for sure, they are making it easier for people to turn their back on the UK. Basically, we can be part of it, but we are allowed to influence it.

[speedy_gonzales]

It was simply a Tory ruse to get rid of social housing and the associated cost to central government. That and the hope that the new home owners would turn into Tory voters,
I was always told by my dad that the 'real' driver behind right-to-buy was saddling the new home owners with debt(mortgage).
"There's nae better sauce than hunger" he said and there's no better way to keep socialist lefties at the coal face if they value a roof over their head than by giving them monthly responsibilities.

[snooky]

I was always told by my dad that the 'real' driver behind right-to-buy was saddling the new home owners with debt(mortgage).
"There's nae better sauce than hunger" he said and there's no better way to keep socialist lefties at the coal face if they value a roof over their head than by giving them monthly responsibilities.

It's a double edge sword.
If you were in tied house like farmers and miners used to be then your home was only as secure as your job.
When your house eventually belongs to yourself then you're not beholding to anyone.

[Peevemor]

I was always told by my dad that the 'real' driver behind right-to-buy was saddling the new home owners with debt(mortgage).
"There's nae better sauce than hunger" he said and there's no better way to keep socialist lefties at the coal face if they value a roof over their head than by giving them monthly responsibilities.

Isn't rent a monthly responsibility?

There's a law here that a certain percentage (30%?) of development approved annually in any given town has to be social housing - usually housing association stuff. This can include low cost housing (more or less cost price) for first time buyers, who are in turn aided by a portion of their mortgage fixed at 0% depending on earnings.

I think there's a similar development percentage rule in Scotland, but from what I remember it was poorly (or not at all) enforced.

[Stranraer]

So the BBC has seen documents from officials that suggest the blue Tories might slash ESA and JSA... and the red Tories are pledging austerity cuts as well. I honestly don't know who would make a worse Prime Minister!

[speedy_gonzales]

Isn't rent a monthly responsibility?
We are talking council housing, when was the last time the council evicted someone for non-payment of rent? The banks are more ruthless than the local authorities!
My grandad was a miner in Mayfield, he never thought he could afford a mortgage but the rent was never a problem, plus there was the added benefit of the council upgrading the kitchen/bathroom/windows/heating.
Being an owner, as most of us who can afford it know, there are benefits as well as downsides.

[lord bunberry]

So the BBC has seen documents from officials that suggest the blue Tories might slash ESA and JSA... and the red Tories are pledging austerity cuts as well. I honestly don't know who would make a worse Prime Minister!
You expect it from the Tories, but I can't for the life of me understand why Labour aren't offering more of an alternative. It was suggested earlier in this thread that it seems like Labour are deliberately trying to lose and with every passing day that seems more plausible.

[Beefster]

Am I the only one shocked by blatant hatred towards Scottish or welsh? For example a coalition a labour/lib dem coalition would be fine even if there where no seats picked up by the lib dems in scotland, but a labour/snp would be a disaster? Some United Kingdom when our voice is worth less...

Why are you equating being Scottish with the SNP? It's not a hatred of Scotland, it's a hatred of the SNP.

I'm trying to let you guys get on with your 'everyone hates us... aren't they all **** except for the SNP... Red Tories... want to suppress the working man' stuff but, seriously, sometimes some of it needs to be challenged.

[snooky]

You expect it from the Tories, but I can't for the life of me understand why Labour aren't offering more of an alternative. It was suggested earlier in this thread that it seems like Labour are deliberately trying to lose and with every passing day that seems more plausible.

Tory Blair weighed the Left anchor the day he was elected. His party has sailed rudderless since.

[RyeSloan]

So the BBC has seen documents from officials that suggest the blue Tories might slash ESA and JSA... and the red Tories are pledging austerity cuts as well. I honestly don't know who would make a worse Prime Minister!

It was a civil service paper though not a Tory proposal...I know the difference won't mean much to many and labour et al will make hay but it's strange how we ignore the interaction between government and the civil service.

That said the Tories are not being shy in suggesting they will cut benefits in some areas, I suppose at least they are being a least half honest on that front.

Reading the BBC report though does remind you of the complexity of the benefit system...I know the universal credit has had mixed reviews and performance but surely something has to be done about the massive web of intermingled benefits and tax credits. I'm drawn to the citizens income idea...sure it has flaws and there is probably a middle way but some sort of simplified payment that ensures a basic standard of living can surely be thought up that would be more efficient (and thus probably cheaper) and more effective that the current mess.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Why are you equating being Scottish with the SNP? It's not a hatred of Scotland, it's a hatred of the SNP.

I'm trying to let you guys get on with your 'everyone hates us... aren't they all **** except for the SNP... Red Tories... want to suppress the working man' stuff but, seriously, sometimes some of it needs to be challenged.


On QT the other night, Street - Porter was attacking Jim Murphy (not SNP the last time I looked) for his plans to redistribute wealth throughout the UK.

[marinello59]

On QT the other night, Street - Porter was attacking Jim Murphy (not SNP the last time I looked) for his plans to redistribute wealth throughout the UK.

Does disagreeing with someone equate to hatred of Scots now?

[Thegreenside]

Why are you equating being Scottish with the SNP? It's not a hatred of Scotland, it's a hatred of the SNP.

I'm trying to let you guys get on with your 'everyone hates us... aren't they all **** except for the SNP... Red Tories... want to suppress the working man' stuff but, seriously, sometimes some of it needs to be challenged.

Not at all. But the likelihood is that the snp is going to get the majority of seats in scotland.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Does disagreeing with someone equate to hatred of Scots now?

No, in the way J S-P and some others are behaving it equates to ignorance. To suggest that only nationalists should be offended by the sneering at Scottish people for wanting to spend their share of the UK's wealth, is missing the point.

[marinello59]

No, in the way J S-P and some others are behaving it equates to ignorance. To suggest that only nationalists should be offended by the sneering at Scottish people for wanting to spend their share of the UK's wealth, is missing the point.

At least disagreeing with Nationalism is evolving. It used to be scaremongering, now it is sneering and hatred As you say, if you don't disagree with their view point then you are obviously missing the point.
SNP good, all else bad.

[Phil D. Rolls]

At least disagreeing with Nationalisism is evolving. It used to be scaremongering, now it is sneering and hatred As you say, if you don't disagree with their view point then you are obviously missing the point.
SNP good, all else bad.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

If you don't disagree [aka agree?] with who's point? The nationalists or the people challenging them (and Scottish Labour, and any other democratic party arguing for their share of the Barnett formula). :confused:

[marinello59]

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

If you don't disagree [aka agree?] with who's point? The nationalists or the people challenging them (and Scottish Labour, and any other democratic party arguing for their share of the Barnett formula). :confused:

You're just rambling now.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're just rambling now.

You started it.

[marinello59]

You started it.

Probably. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Probably. :greengrin

:greengrin

[Just Alf]

Re JSP the other night, she basically said that the English (not British etc) were scared of the "Scots" and that if the SNP were voted in with enough seats to wield an influence in Westminster it would be undemocratic as England hadn't voted for them.

Is it just me that sees inconsistencies in her argument?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Re JSP the other night, she basically said that the English (not British etc) were scared of the "Scots" and that if the SNP were voted in with enough seats to wield an influence in Westminster it would be undemocratic as England hadn't voted for them.

Is it just me that sees inconsistencies in her argument?

For many years Scotland was governed by a party whom the electorate had rejected. We didn't say it was undemocratic, we went away and worked on the solution.

We didn't say it was undemocratic that money was spent on the Thames barrier, or set aside for Crossrail, or a high speed rail link which is supposed to "open Britain for business". We went away and worked on a solution.

The English deserve better people speaking up for them then JSP. We can help them work on a solution. They are going to have to get over centuries of being conditioned to believe they are superior to every other nation on earth.

Right now it's sticking in their craw that (what they see as) their little brother, or country cousin, is organised and ready to fight its corner (even Slimy Murphy is making a pretence of putting Scotland first). Time for them to stop whining and start organising.

The fact that they have a bunch of crazies like UKIP to speak for them is a red herring. Every British political party has spoken for their interests before everyone elses ever since the union was created.

Personally, I don't think the SNP should vote on English laws. But the Tories passed a lot of laws up here, without even having a single MP in Scotland.

[snooky]

For many years Scotland was governed by a party whom the electorate had rejected. We didn't say it was undemocratic, we went away and worked on the solution.

We didn't say it was undemocratic that money was spent on the Thames barrier, or set aside for Crossrail, or a high speed rail link which is supposed to "open Britain for business". We went away and worked on a solution.

The English deserve better people speaking up for them then JSP. We can help them work on a solution. They are going to have to get over centuries of being conditioned to believe they are superior to every other nation on earth.

Right now it's sticking in their craw that (what they see as) their little brother, or country cousin, is organised and ready to fight its corner (even Slimy Murphy is making a pretence of putting Scotland first). Time for them to stop whining and start organising.

The fact that they have a bunch of crazies like UKIP to speak for them is a red herring. Every British political party has spoken for their interests before everyone elses ever since the union was created.

Personally, I don't think the SNP should vote on English laws. But the Tories passed a lot of laws up here, without even having a single MP in Scotland.
The Poll Tax for one. Not a titter from dan sawff till they were subjected to it a year later.
Great post, PDR

[Mikey09]

For many years Scotland was governed by a party whom the electorate had rejected. We didn't say it was undemocratic, we went away and worked on the solution.

We didn't say it was undemocratic that money was spent on the Thames barrier, or set aside for Crossrail, or a high speed rail link which is supposed to "open Britain for business". We went away and worked on a solution.

The English deserve better people speaking up for them then JSP. We can help them work on a solution. They are going to have to get over centuries of being conditioned to believe they are superior to every other nation on earth.

Right now it's sticking in their craw that (what they see as) their little brother, or country cousin, is organised and ready to fight its corner (even Slimy Murphy is making a pretence of putting Scotland first). Time for them to stop whining and start organising.

The fact that they have a bunch of crazies like UKIP to speak for them is a red herring. Every British political party has spoken for their interests before everyone elses ever since the union was created.

Personally, I don't think the SNP should vote on English laws. But the Tories passed a lot of laws up here, without even having a single MP in Scotland.


Fantastic post Rolls... :top marks

[RyeSloan]

The Poll Tax for one. Not a titter from dan sawff till they were subjected to it a year later. Great post, PDR

That's not really true though is it....a popular myth maybe but even Nigel Lawson was briefing against the poll tax well before it was introduced in Scotland. And anyway if the roles were reversed and the poll tax had been implemented in London first would you have expected riots in Glasgow in sympathy?

In reality it was introduced in Scotland first mainly due to the rates revaluation timing and at Scottish (Tory) MP's behest ..the poll tax was flawed in many ways but people forget just how unpopular the regular rate revaluations were at the time.

Finally if Scotland was a test bed for the poll tax you have to wonder why it was applied in England a year later considering just how unpopular it had been here.

A bigger political mistake you will probably never find though...a disastrous tax implemented in a disastrous way and it's legacy (and myths) live on to this day.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just had a day on the street canvassing or getting people to sign the petition against TTIP.

Shocked how few people know about it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just had a day on the street canvassing or getting people to sign the petition against TTIP.

Shocked how few people know about it.

What is it?

[easty]

just had a day on the street canvassing or getting people to sign the petition against ttip.

Shocked how few people know about it.

titp

[Chibs]

What is it?
t in the park apparently :confused:

[Beefster]

What is it?

A trade agreement between the EU and US.

[Pretty Boy]

Transatlantic trade and investment partnership.

[snooky]

A trade agreement between the EU and US.
I think that the agreement, once signed, leaves us open to lawsuits from U.S. companies who have low bids rejected. I believe a big concern is how it relates to the NHS and some attempts are being made to have the NHS exempt.
IMO any trade deals with the US are likely to be one-sided as hell (just ask the Canadians). This agreement sounds like one more corporate nail in Joe Blow's coffin.

[Glory Lurker]

I think that the agreement, once signed, leaves us open to lawsuits from U.S. companies who have low bids rejected. I believe a big concern is how it relates to the NHS and some attempts are being made to have the NHS exempt.
IMO any trade deals with the US are likely to be one-sided as hell (just ask the Canadians). This agreement sounds like one more corporate nail in Joe Blow's coffin.

Isn't it great that we're relying on Westminster to exempt health from this? Devolved or not, the decision on the impact of the agreement on our NHS will not be made here.

[Just Alf]

I think that the agreement, once signed, leaves us open to lawsuits from U.S. companies who have low bids rejected. I believe a big concern is how it relates to the NHS and some attempts are being made to have the NHS exempt.
IMO any trade deals with the US are likely to be one-sided as hell (just ask the Canadians). This agreement sounds like one more corporate nail in Joe Blow's coffin.

That's my understanding too.... There's also the issue of the knock on effect on the Scottish NHS, basically, this agreement will drive down Westminster spending on rUK NHS in favour of private equity input resulting in a similar reduction (% wise) of funding passed to the Scottish government to spend on the Scottish NHS, so while the Scottish NHS is technically devolved it is still heavily influenced by Westminster decisions.

[Glory Lurker]

That's my understanding too.... There's also the issue of the knock on effect on the Scottish NHS, basically, this agreement will drive down Westminster spending on rUK NHS in favour of private equity input resulting in a similar reduction (% wise) of funding passed to the Scottish government to spend on the Scottish NHS, so while the Scottish NHS is technically devolved it is still heavily influenced by Westminster decisions.

My understanding is that the different health services in the UK is irrelevant as the agreement applies at member state level? Happy to be proved wrong if I'm havering, though!

[Just Alf]

My understanding is that the different health services in the UK is irrelevant as the agreement applies at member state level? Happy to be proved wrong if I'm havering, though!


Your totally correct, the wrinkle to it though is that the top level finance for the Scottish NHS is financed from Westminster on a pro rata basis to what's spent across the rUK NHS, the Scottish government has sole responsibility on how that money is spent........ If, of course, the rUK NHS starts down the road towards "privitation" then, the money available to our NHS will be reduced in tandem.

[RyeSloan]

I think that the agreement, once signed, leaves us open to lawsuits from U.S. companies who have low bids rejected. I believe a big concern is how it relates to the NHS and some attempts are being made to have the NHS exempt. IMO any trade deals with the US are likely to be one-sided as hell (just ask the Canadians). This agreement sounds like one more corporate nail in Joe Blow's coffin.

I assume by lawsuits you mean an ISDS?

Maybe it's just me but as ISDS's already exist and bilateral investment treaties already exist then I'm a touch confused as to the scare mongering going on re TTIP. Personally I think it smacks of vested interests and protectionism more than anything else.

I may be in the minority of one but honestly I don't care if my health care is provided at point of use by someone employed by a US firm or by the UK government, honestly I don't...I care about the positive outcome of that treatment.

On a wider scale when looking at the NHS as a whole I want it to provide the best treatment but in the most cost effective manner....again I really don't give a flying monkeys about if that is by a US company or a Public employer.

As I said I'm prob in the minority of one on this and I apologise if some are offended but I honestly see a lot of the furore around the NHS (and private involvement in particular) as people wanting to protect their own pay and conditions rather than seriously considering what a modern, efficient and cost effective health service might look like.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wow,that started a debate.

Trip will also introduce US employment law, trade union reduction lower wages and higher unemployment.

Ask your Westminster candidates if they are for or against it. I know what my parties view is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Your totally correct, the wrinkle to it though is that the top level finance for the Scottish NHS is financed from Westminster on a pro rata basis to what's spent across the rUK NHS, the Scottish government has sole responsibility on how that money is spent........ If, of course, the rUK NHS starts down the road towards "privitation" then, the money available to our NHS will be reduced in tandem.

If that's the case then why has the SNP cut NHS spending in real terms while the Tories have increased it in England? I mean, WTF????

You're right, the funding formula means that if England spends more on the NHS then Scotland should have more money. What's it being spent on, because it's not been given to the NHS?

[JeMeSouviens]

If that's the case then why has the SNP cut NHS spending in real terms while the Tories have increased it in England? I mean, WTF????

You're right, the funding formula means that if England spends more on the NHS then Scotland should have more money. What's it being spent on, because it's not been given to the NHS?

One example is mitigation of bedroom tax (you remember, the thing Ed stopped Johann opposing until he'd focus grouped it :wink:). That costs £35M pa.

[Phil D. Rolls]

How long till Murphy has to humiliate himself and admit that his mantra that "the largest party always forms the government" is just another lie?

[Colr]

If that's the case then why has the SNP cut NHS spending in real terms while the Tories have increased it in England? I mean, WTF????

You're right, the funding formula means that if England spends more on the NHS then Scotland should have more money. What's it being spent on, because it's not been given to the NHS?

Some health budgets are going to local authorities now so that may make the comparison unfair

[Colr]

It was simply a Tory ruse to get rid of social housing and the associated cost to central government. That and the hope that the new home owners would turn into Tory voters,

MT did put quite a lot of funding into housing especially inner city renewal. She also boosted the Housing Associations in an attempt to de-politicise Council housing which was badly run by many Councils. He transition was speeded up greatly by Labour, though, through the criteria for Decent Homes funding which required housing to be held by HAs or in a ALMO.

[Mibbes Aye]

Some health budgets are going to local authorities now so that may make the comparison unfair

If you mean health and social care integration, the schemes haven't been signed off by Scottish Government and the commissioning plans won't be signed off until after that.

That's yet to come, I'm talking about what has been happening over the last few years.

[Mibbes Aye]

One example is mitigation of bedroom tax (you remember, the thing Ed stopped Johann opposing until he'd focus grouped it :wink:). That costs £35M pa.

I don't think John Swinney agrees. Certainly I've never heard him say he was taking money out of the NHS to spend on mitigating the bedroom tax. I would have remembered that :greengrin

He has talked about finding money from efficiencies on the Queensferry Crossing and the like.

To get back to my original question/point, it surely makes a mockery of the SNP's claims to protect the NHS, when the Tories managed to increase NHS spending in England while the SNP managed to decrease it in Scotland.

[Colr]

If you mean health and social care integration, the schemes haven't been signed off by Scottish Government and the commissioning plans won't be signed off until after that.

That's yet to come, I'm talking about what has been happening over the last few years.

Its been happening in England, I think.

[wpj]

I have seen first hand the results of PPF in the NHS and it hasn't ended well for service users. Also increasing or decreasing spending on the NHS means very little if the money isn't going to the right places and nit being spent on vanity projects.

[Mikey09]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! Nigel Farage says Immigration will be there priority in the run up to the General Election. Mikey09, Hibs.net News, Planet earth. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! Nigel Farage says Immigration will be there priority in the run up to the General Election. Mikey09, Hibs.net News, Planet earth. :greengrin


That makes UKIP, Conservative and Labour Parties all making Immigration a priority.

https://shop.labour.org.uk/products/pledge-4-mug-controls-on-immigration-551/

On the other hand

http://shop.greenparty.org.uk/products/standing-up-for-migrants-mug-exact-design-to-be-confirmed

:thumbsup:

[Sylar]

Just finished looking at the candidates in our area...any suggestions for something witty to write on my ballot paper as I spoil it?

Not a hope I'll be voting for any of those on offer here.

[Sergey]

Just finished looking at the candidates in our area...any suggestions for something witty to write on my ballot paper as I spoil it?

Not a hope I'll be voting for any of those on offer here.

Me too - I've spoiled my last two ballot papers and will do likewise again this election.

There really should be a 'None of the Above' option.

[lord bunberry]

Me too - I've spoiled my last two ballot papers and will do likewise again this election.

There really should be a 'None of the Above' option.
If we went down the road of compulsory voting, then I would definitely have that option.

[Kato]

If you spoil your paper the candidates have to look at all the spoiled/illegible ballot papers together so make your message an apt one.

[Geo_1875]

Just finished looking at the candidates in our area...any suggestions for something witty to write on my ballot paper as I spoil it?

Not a hope I'll be voting for any of those on offer here.

You could add Scottish National Party to your paper and tick the box.

[wpj]

If you spoil your paper the candidates have to look at all the spoiled/illegible ballot papers together so make your message an apt one.

Like yer all pish!

[Kato]

Like yer all pish!

That would be perfectly acceptable.

[Phil D. Rolls]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! Nigel Farage says Immigration will be there priority in the run up to the General Election. Mikey09, Hibs.net News, Planet earth. :greengrin

Any news on his plans to find out what religion the pope is, and what does he intend to do about proper sanitation for bears?

[Mikey09]

Any news on his plans to find out what religion the pope is, and what does he intend to do about proper sanitation for bears?


I have a sensational exclusive in tomorrow's .net news bulletin re both these subjects. So I'm afraid you'll just have to hang on till then Rolls.... :greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

If you spoil your paper the candidates have to look at all the spoiled/illegible ballot papers together so make your message an apt one.

I saw one with the following message, a few elections ago. It was against the name of the Tory candidate and said "This man is evil"

Consensus was that whilst possibly accurate, it couldn't be considered as a vote for the Tory :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Some jolly old April Fools' japes at Labour HQ! Right? Surely??? :rolleyes:

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/3/31/1427818270667/0542846b-ad1d-44c1-b427-0e75dbd5cd43-620x372.jpeg

[Moulin Yarns]

Some jolly old April Fools' japes at Labour HQ! Right? Surely??? :rolleyes:

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/3/31/1427818270667/0542846b-ad1d-44c1-b427-0e75dbd5cd43-620x372.jpeg

No, they really are selling them in their online store. Abrilliant reposte by the Green Party.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0350/2405/products/MockUp_v1_1024x1024.png?v=1427809674 (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0350/2405/products/MockUp_v1_1024x1024.png?v=1427809674)

[Alex Trager]

https://m.youtube.com/user/HarrisonHarveyHale


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikey09]

Any news on his plans to find out what religion the pope is, and what does he intend to do about proper sanitation for bears?


BREAKING NEWS!!! Farage has insisted the Pope takes a Catholicism Exam just to make sure he is in fact Catholic.... And as for proper sanitation for Bears Farage states, "This country is being completely over run by bears, coming here for state hand outs, taking British bears jobs, and don't get me started on those damn Pandas in Edinburgh being given free IVF treatment just because they're struggling to conceive!! It's ridiculous OUR ENGLISH pounds are being spent so needlessly on immigrant bloody bears in Scotchland! Our policy shall be NO IMMIGRANT BEAR shall receive any kind of hand out for 5 years or until they can have a civilised pint down the pub and sing God Save the Bloody Queen!!" Mikey09, .net news, Planet Earth.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wow,that started a debate.

Trip will also introduce US employment law, trade union reduction lower wages and higher unemployment.

Ask your Westminster candidates if they are for or against it. I know what my parties view is.


I'm resurrecting this because I think it is important.

If implemented, TTIP would give multinational corporations the power to sue our government if they believe they have been disadvantaged as a result of its policies, placing labour rights, consumer rights, environmental regulations and public services, including the NHS, at risk.

It is a lot more than just the NHS at risk.

[lord bunberry]

No, they really are selling them in their online store. Abrilliant reposte by the Green Party.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0350/2405/products/MockUp_v1_1024x1024.png?v=1427809674 (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0350/2405/products/MockUp_v1_1024x1024.png?v=1427809674)
I though Patrick Harvey came across well last night on TV, despite the interviewer predictable asking the same question.

[RyeSloan]

I'm resurrecting this because I think it is important. If implemented, TTIP would give multinational corporations the power to sue our government if they believe they have been disadvantaged as a result of its policies, placing labour rights, consumer rights, environmental regulations and public services, including the NHS, at risk. It is a lot more than just the NHS at risk.

The question is how is that any different from the bilateral investment agreements already in place (about 100 of them) that already have ISDS provisions?

How many ISDS cases have resulted in UK laws being changed?

[Beefster]

The question is how is that any different from the bilateral investment agreements already in place (about 100 of them) that already have ISDS provisions?

How many ISDS cases have resulted in UK laws being changed?

It's interesting to hear that there is a potential other side to this agreement, given all I've heard about it is the scare stories/headlines that folk keep repeating.

[Future17]

https://m.youtube.com/user/HarrisonHarveyHale


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't get it. Is the video supposed to be funny? Why the reference to "Thug Life"? Why the use of a Blu Cantrell/Sean Paul song? What's the point of this?

For the avoidance of doubt...I don't get it. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's interesting to hear that there is a potential other side to this agreement, given all I've heard about it is the scare stories/headlines that folk keep repeating.

There is another side. I think most people are bright enough to examine the issues and go beyond the headlines though.

[snooky]

I'm resurrecting this because I think it is important.

If implemented, TTIP would give multinational corporations the power to sue our government if they believe they have been disadvantaged as a result of its policies, placing labour rights, consumer rights, environmental regulations and public services, including the NHS, at risk.

It is a lot more than just the NHS at risk.

If given these powers to sue, I have every confidence that USA companies would not use them as they are our friends and allies. :whistle:

:cb V :redindian:

[Beefster]

There is another side. I think most people are bright enough to examine the issues and go beyond the headlines though.

I think most people have other things to worry about, to be honest. If the folk who are interested have gone beyond the headlines though, SiMar's questions shouldn't be too difficult to respond to.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think most people have other things to worry about, to be honest. If the folk who are interested have gone beyond the headlines though, SiMar's questions shouldn't be too difficult to respond to.

Fair enough - and yes, SiMar has raised some good points which I would be keen to hear answers to.

[RyeSloan]

Fair enough - and yes, SiMar has raised some good points which I would be keen to hear answers to.

Well I've got to make a good point at some point I suppose, even a broken clock is correct twice a day ;-)

[snooky]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html

This is over my head however, some of you buffs might find it interesting (or bollox of course :cool2:).

[Phil D. Rolls]

Well I've got to make a good point at some point I suppose, even a broken clock is correct twice a day ;-)

Which is much better than a clock that is going slow. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

It seems the Tory press have now got a new kid on the block to have a dig at. Trouble is, she's a canny operator. The story was de-bunked in 90 minutes.

Some of the Scottish Labour party office bearers need to take a good look in the mirror.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...?utm_hp_ref=tw

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...d-Cameron.html

https://storify.com/theSNP/telegraph...cottish-labour

[lord bunberry]

It seems the Tory press have now got a new kid on the block to have a dig at. Trouble is, she's a canny operator. The story was de-bunked in 90 minutes.

Some of the Scottish Labour party office bearers need to take a good look in the mirror.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...?utm_hp_ref=tw

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...d-Cameron.html

https://storify.com/theSNP/telegraph...cottish-labour
I notice the telegraph has yet to apologise for their lies. I won't hold my breath on one coming either.

[marinello59]

I notice the telegraph has yet to apologise for their lies. I won't hold my breath on one coming either.

Basing this story on a memo from a UK civil servant who wasn't anywhere near this meeting is desperate stuff. There is no way they will withdraw the story though as they will continue to press the case that this is an 'official' record of what was said even though those who were actually there have denied it.

[lord bunberry]

Basing this story on a memo from a UK civil servant who wasn't anywhere near this meeting is desperate stuff. There is no way they will withdraw the story though as they will continue to press the case that this is an 'official' record of what was said even though those who were actually there have denied it.
:agree: Desperate is exactly what it is. It seems the Tories think they can weaken Labour by attacking the SNP. I'm not sure I really understand their logic on this one.

[Colr]

:agree: Desperate is exactly what it is. It seems the Tories think they can weaken Labour by attacking the SNP. I'm not sure I really understand their logic on this one.

In England they probably can, although after the TV debate many might prefer Milliband if he was being worked from the back by Sturgeon.

[lord bunberry]

In England they probably can, although after the TV debate many might prefer Milliband if he was being worked from the back by Sturgeon.
He certainly needs someone telling him what to do, I've never seen a more false politician in my life.

[Moulin Yarns]

One of the best piece of pro SNP propaganda

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/nick-griffins-racist-black-men-in-kilts-antisnp-advert-has-the-opposite-of-the-desired-effect-on-scottish-followers-10154140.html

[Holmesdale Hibs]

He certainly needs someone telling him what to do, I've never seen a more false politician in my life.

Agree about the false part although I think I'm EM's case (and he's not the only one), he has too many people telling him what to do/say. It looks to me like he often gets half way through his pre-rehearsed line and has to pause because can't remember where he's going. It's like the verbal equivalent of his bacon sandwich mishap.

[CropleyWasGod]

I notice the telegraph has yet to apologise for their lies. I won't hold my breath on one coming either.

The journalist who wrote the story did apologise on Twitter, directly to NS. Think he said he had been "duped". :greengrin

[degenerated]

The journalist who wrote the story did apologise on Twitter, directly to NS. Think he said he had been "duped". :greengrin
It was Simon Johnson that wrote it, wasn't it. If so there's no hint of any apology, or remorse, on his timeline on Twitter.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was Simon Johnson that wrote it, wasn't it. If so there's no hint of any apology, or remorse, on his timeline on Twitter.
This is the Tweet I read. Assumed it was from the journalist. Guy's name is Duncan Hothersall.
Turns out he's a Labour activist.


So both @NicolaSturgeon & French ambassador have now both categorically denied Telegraph story. Apologies to the FM. Looks like I was duped.

[DaveF]

This is the Tweet I read. Assumed it was from the journalist. Guy's name is Duncan Hothersall.
Turns out he's a Labour activist.


So both @NicolaSturgeon & French ambassador have now both categorically denied Telegraph story. Apologies to the FM. Looks like I was duped.

He's a "I'm an MP" Ian Murray labourite.

Simon Johnson and Peter Dominiczak wrote the Telegraph story and they won't ever back down.

[lord bunberry]

The journalist who wrote the story did apologise on Twitter, directly to NS. Think he said he had been "duped". :greengrin
Unless it's printed in the paper then it's pointless. I watched a representative of all 3 major parties try and make political capital from the article despite the fact that they must have known by that time that the story was untrue. Watching Malcolm Bruce almost had me standing shouting at the TV

[degenerated]

This is the Tweet I read. Assumed it was from the journalist. Guy's name is Duncan Hothersall.
Turns out he's a Labour activist.


So both @NicolaSturgeon & French ambassador have now both categorically denied Telegraph story. Apologies to the FM. Looks like I was duped.
This description from an article last year really sums him up

"In the deep undergrowth of Scottish politics there lurks a strange creature called a Duncan Hothersall. Nondescript and unworthy of notice, this creature nonetheless provides a useful case study of a mind given over to the ravages of unthinking partisan loyalty and mindless hatred."

[lord bunberry]

http://youtu.be/DtgDCV8iIHk

[Hibrandenburg]

http://youtu.be/DtgDCV8iIHk

Has anyone been along to point out that the press pander to public opinion and not the other way about yet?

[snooky]

Has anyone been along to point out that the press pander to public opinion and not the other way about yet?

Has anyone been along to point out that the press (and BBC) have been lying to us for years and the internet has finally exposed these charlatans for what they are?

[lord bunberry]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

[degenerated]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press
And promoting the daily mail, a very mixed up bunch are Scottish Labour branch office.

[bawheid]

And promoting the daily mail, a very mixed up bunch are Scottish Labour branch office.

I find them a bit creepy to be honest.

[Judas Iscariot]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

Looks more like an advert for Saga holidays

[snooky]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

That'll be another 1000 or so converts to the SNP, thank you very much.
Talk about digging the hole you are in deeper, jeez.

[Hibrandenburg]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

What a sorry bunch indeed.

[marinello59]

Has anyone been along to point out that the press pander to public opinion and not the other way about yet?

The press do play to their own audience though.. The telegraph readers will have been delighted with this story as they will be comforted that the scary Scottish lady isn't such a threat after all. The Telegraph will have sold more papers and their website got more hits so job done as far as they are concerned. If the Telegraph had run a similar story smearing David Cameron then their readers would have been outraged so highly unlikely they would ever do that isn't it?
It makes life easier for the real culprits that so many prefer to shoot the messenger rather than look beyond them. . Whilst so many point the finger at the 'Tory press' and the MSM the sinister figures in Government and the civil service who concocted this smear get away with barely a remark being made about them.

[DaveF]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

I know one foot in the grave finished years ago, but surely Richard Wilson can get a better gig than hanging about street corners promoting his beloved Labour party?

[snooky]

I know one foot in the grave finished years ago, but surely Richard Wilson can get a better gig than hanging about street corners promoting his beloved Labour party?

Irony? :cool2:

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anyone come across Forward Together? Cross party group campaign against the SNP. How sad that they can't seem to be able to let go.

[Alex Trager]

Irony? :cool2:

Thinking similar earlier haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

I know one foot in the grave finished years ago, but surely Richard Wilson can get a better gig than hanging about street corners promoting his beloved Labour party?
:greengrin:
I actually saw him address a Labour Party rally in Aberdeen prior to the '97 election. I didn't think there could be a worse speaker that night. Then Prescott appeared.

[Pretty Boy]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

That picture actually makes me pity those people as opposed to want to ridicule them.

Stuck in an age that probably only existed in their own heads fighting battles others have moved on from.

[RyeSloan]

Fair enough - and yes, SiMar has raised some good points which I would be keen to hear answers to.

Since Golden Fleece has declined to back up his post with anything at all I had a small look myself...the following doc is quite informative and suggests zero ISDS cases have succeeded in the UK, and zero law changes have been the result of ISDS. It also suggests there is a UN approved transparency requirement to be applied to ISDS cases and that any ISDS included in TTIP would have to meet this requirement.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/311247/bis-14-695-investor-state-dispute-settlement-faqs.pdf

So I'm yet to be convinced that TTIP is anything like what people are trying to scare others into thinking and as ever is just a reactionary stance.

[Bristolhibby]

14638
Labour Party still taking advantage of the lies printed by the Tory press

They look a positive bunch.

[Hibbyradge]

Has anyone been along to point out that the press pander to public opinion and not the other way about yet?

Do you believe that public opinion after the TV debate was that Nicola Sturgeon was "the most dangerous woman in Britain"?

Do you think that the made up memo stating that Sturgeon preferred Cameron was pandering to public opinion or attempting to make it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you believe that public opinion after the TV debate was that Nicola Sturgeon was "the most dangerous woman in Britain"?

Do you think that the made up memo stating that Sturgeon preferred Cameron was pandering to public opinion or attempting to make it?

I was actually being ironic, there was a poster on here who claimed the press only ever pandered to public opinion and played no role in setting it throughout the Indy debate. Can't remember his name and was hoping he'd take the bait again.

But to answer your question, no. The press sway huge amounts of the public's opinion, there's a lot of people out there who like to have their opinions made for them ready wrapped. It's ridiculous to believe that the press have no role in steering the opinion of the masses when we live in a society that spends billions on advertisement.

[Hibbyradge]

I was actually being ironic, there was a poster on here who claimed the press only ever pandered to public opinion and played no role in setting it throughout the Indy debate. Can't remember his name and was hoping he'd take the bait again.

But to answer your question, no. The press sway huge amounts of the public's opinion, there's a lot of people out there who like to have their opinions made for them ready wrapped. It's ridiculous to believe that the press have no role in steering the opinion of the masses when we live in a society that spends billions on advertisement.

Ah, sorry.

I read your post in isolation.

Too early... :doh:

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah, sorry.

I read your post in isolation.

Too early... :doh:

No probs, I'm the same before my 3rd coffee. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

First Minister speaks up for Scottish football, and the unacceptable deal we get from the BBC. Good stuff:agree:

http://snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/apr/fm-intervention-bbc-football-funding-welcomed

[hibsbollah]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/newspapers-are-preparing-for-coup-and-labour-is-doing-nothing-to-stop-them?utm_content=buffer110c4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This article encapsulates everything im thinking about the media coverage. They're preparing to redefine what it means to win an election.

[Just Alf]

First Minister speaks up for Scottish football, and the unacceptable deal we get from the BBC. Good stuff:agree:

http://snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/apr/fm-intervention-bbc-football-funding-welcomed

so in simple terms Scottish footy is being short changed by about £5 million over the period......

[DaveF]

There's something about Bernard Ponsonby that makes you want to kick the telly.

[Chibs]

There's something about Bernard Ponsonby that makes you want to kick the telly.

why?

[marinello59]

why?

No idea but I was thinking the same thing.

[BroxburnHibee]

No idea but I was thinking the same thing.

He's a buffoon!

[DaveF]

why?

He seems intent on being the main attraction, asking a question in 100 words rather than 10.

Hoping the audience member with hat and fake moustache gets some air time. That could be good fun!

[DaveF]

Some funny stuff on the twitter feed re the audience

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23scotdebates&src=typd

[cabbageandribs1875]

oooooh ruthy loosing the rag

[Chibs]

He's a buffoon!
:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

murphy "it's always someone elses fault nicola" what a damn hypocrite this man is :kettle: trumpet

[lucky]

Clear winner tonight was Murphy, sturgeon just not perform to her usual standard. She was a wee bit shouty

[cabbageandribs1875]

and the audience clapometer says... well done nicola :agree: crate boy 2nd again, anger management needed for ruth, liberal democrat..hilarious

[liamh2202]

I think the brittle leaders need to take a look at their Scottish counterparts as they dealt with sturgeon a lot better than last week

[degenerated]

Clear winner tonight was Murphy, sturgeon just not perform to her usual standard. She was a wee bit shouty
You must have been watching something different to me, Murphy was interrupting and shouting at both Davidson and Sturgeon.
He comes across as insincere, boorish, patronising and his patter is utterly cringeworthy.

[Hiber-nation]

You must have been watching something different to me, Murphy was interrupting and shouting at both Davidson and Sturgeon.
He comes across as insincere, boorish, patronising and his patter is utterly cringeworthy.

:agree:

You can only sit there shaking your head at this man. What an embarrassment.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Clear winner tonight was Murphy, sturgeon just not perform to her usual standard. She was a wee bit shouty

Seriously ? You think Jim care bear Murphy was a winner. The man that wants to get rid and keep nuclear weapons.

[Mikey09]

You must have been watching something different to me, Murphy was interrupting and shouting at both Davidson and Sturgeon.
He comes across as insincere, boorish, patronising and his patter is utterly cringeworthy.


One word that sums him up. Patronises everyone he speaks to. Clown... :soapbox:

[degenerated]

Seriously ? You think Jim care bear Murphy was a winner. The man that wants to get rid and keep nuclear weapons.
And abolished tuition fees 😏

[ronaldo7]

Exit polls

Nicola 55
Jim 36
Ruth 8
Willie 1

Mr Shouty man will have to up his game to beat the nippy sweety.:greengrin

Guan yersel hen.

14640

[cabbageandribs1875]

interesting murphy mentioning(twice) how terrible it is that people have to go to food banks etc etc, maybe if murphy started donating the crates of irn bru he puts on his claim forms it might help at least some have some liquid refreshment at least...go on murphy..try donating instead of claiming freebies ya free-loading shifty smarmy git that yi are

[snooky]

No idea but I was thinking the same thing.

Bernard Ponsonby. What a roaster of a name that is, by the way.

[Mibbes Aye]

Bernard Ponsonby. What a roaster of a name that is, by the way.

What's your name?

[steakbake]

Can't stand Murphy. He's a condescending, patronising prick. Would LOVE it if he lost his place on the gravy train but I suspect he's gulled enough Daily Mail/Dad's Army types that are feart of any change and the SNP to vote Labour to keep him in. They love a bit of nostalgia. Ironically, it's the well heeled of Inverclyde that are more likely to keep his job for him.

Mind you, if Margaret Curran loses her seat, that'll definitely be worth waiting up to watch. Danny Alexander too - I mean, what on earth would he do in the real world, the useless streak of pish? Stacking shelves in Boots, I reckon. Not that there is anything wrong in that, but I reckon it's about his level because he's been a total imposter as a professional MP.

[marinello59]

I didn't think there was a clear winner. Nicola Sturgeon got a much harder time than she did in the UK wide debate which was to be expected given that she is in Governmrnt here. She handled everything well though with no slip ups.
Jim Murphy also did well which surprised me. He did a lot to expose the lie that Labour are simply Red Tories. its a bit strange hearing SNP supporters continue to press that line whilst their leader offers to put them in power. There was certainly no love lost between Murphy and Ruth Davidson. Ms Davidson did less well than I expected. Losing her cool didn't do her any favours, memories of the nasty party returned. As for Willie Rennie, he talked well but he really has nothing to lose given the way his party has been marginalised and he looked like a man who knew it.
I can't see last nights debate changing many minds. I was voting SNP before I watched the debate and all last night did was confirm that for me it is the right way to go in this election.

[JimBHibees]

Clear winner tonight was Murphy, sturgeon just not perform to her usual standard. She was a wee bit shouty

How did the salesman get away with selling a TV without an on button. :greengrin

[overdrive]

What was the point? Only Murphy is actually standing in this election.

[Hibrandenburg]

You must have been watching something different to me, Murphy was interrupting and shouting at both Davidson and Sturgeon.
He comes across as insincere, boorish, patronising and his patter is utterly cringeworthy.

The guy looks demented, he reminds me of a nippy wee dug barking at the door but hiding behind the owner when the door opens.

[degenerated]

The guy looks demented, he reminds me of a nippy wee dug barking at the door but hiding behind the owner when the door opens.
He's a political Flintstone, as we speak he'll be back home using a bird's beak to listen to his happy Mondays vinyls [emoji1]