Fan Buy Out Launched/BuyHibs/Q&A Answers

[BuyHibs]

Hi,

Please find below the answers given by the Directors in relation to posters questions. Our replies have been put in bold.

Other than the Board Statement which said that the club was looking forward to working with Buy Hibs, have you had any encouragement from the club in your efforts so far?

Yes - the board of BuyHibs has been invited to meet the board of Hibernian


Can we presume that Sir Tom has already been approached and is therefore happy with the concept of the proposed "drip feed" method of funding the purchase?

Sir Tom was made aware of BuyHibs proposal on the morning of 11th November – the funding of the purchase may not be a “drip feed” if BuyHibs can secure an underwriter for example similar to Hearts current situation. However no negotiations have taken place.

Feedback from the recent club survey and also from the consultation nights showed that fan ownership wasn't really a key priority for most fans. The experience at Motherwell is that although there may be some initial interest the actual number of people willing to contribute money to the club is very limited. Given those two things what made you come forward just now to try to implement a scheme that not many people have said they want and that has failed largely at Motherwell?

The model used at Motherwell was driven by the football club. BuyHibs believe that for a fan led initiative to be successful, it must be Fan led. Additionally, if you review the model used by Motherwell it really was not simple. Our model is simple so our fans can see the clear benefits BuyHIbs believe that Hibs have the Fan base and the desire to support our proposal.


As mentioned given there does not appear to be a huge number in favour of fan ownership, and given the challenges of others getting this off the ground and from the experiences of the constraints and challenges within the LWT/WT initiative, what fresh approach does the group propose to overcome these and win folks over?

We are not aware of other efforts on this scale; we believe the key is to be an inclusive and transparent as possible so our fans will truly understand the benefits to them and our club.


Will the funds raised by fans be used to buy shares from STF/RP or will the fans will have to continue monthly payments to help fund the running of the club once the CIC has been set up?

In the first instance, our proposal is for the Fans to buy shares from STF/RP. Once the Fans own these any residual funds and ongoing contributions would directly assist the Manager. We expect the CIC to be financially self-sustaining and our transparent culture would ensure that fans can see exactly where their financial contributions are going.

If so for how long?

That is up to each individual. The longer the monthly pledges continue, the higher the budget can be made available to spend.

What will happen to the investment that existing shareholders already have in the Club?

We would look to honor this investment in the most appropriate manner.

Have Buy Hibs any plans to engage the numerous small shareholders? Have there been any barriers to them approaching what is likely to be a loyal and committed fan base?

We have approached the Hibernian Shareholder Association to request up to date shareholder list. We are open to working with all groups. BuyHibs has a desire to engage with the whole Hibs community.

You say that you would like to base Hibs on a German model of fan ownership. Given that the German league itself is funded massively by TV, sponsorship and indeed government, exactly what part do you wish to copy as these main sources of funding are not available in Scotland due to demographics?

We are looking to emulate the ownership model i.e. 51%/49%. However we recognise that the revenue streams maybe different. We believe that the split between fans and business ownership creates a bond between the club and the fans.

Since Club86 raised approximately £100k per year at its peak, is it realistic to hope that we achieve 6-7k pledging £20p/m especially with folks already saying football is too expensive (they'd pay this on top of their admission)

Yes. If we can show that this is the best way forward for our club and highlight the benefits of this mode. We are under no illusion that this will not be easy. However for the sake of the Hibs it must be tried to secure our club for the future.

There have been a few references to buying the football club, the stadium, and the training centre as one entity and keeping them together. Aside from Leeann Dempster asking what people thought about the stadium and training centre being held separately to safeguard them (when discussing options) there has been nothing to suggest that there are any plans or that there is any risk of the stadium and the training centre being sold off. Why has it become a priority point to ensure that they are kept together (the implication being that if this bid isn't successful, then the stadium and training centre will be separated from the football club)?

Opinion is that part of the clubs proposals will be to divide the assets (Easter Road, East Mains and the Club.)We feel the assets must all remain part of the football club and be managed more effectively. The legacy of Hibs is safeguarded if the assets are kept together.

Given that Hibs are already one of the most expensive clubs in Scotland to follow, what will an additional spend of £240 a year on top of the £400 I already spend on a season ticket truly bring me?

Once the Fans have a significant share of the Club, each individual can decide if they wish to continue with monthly payments. In our opinion, a better run club that is united and focusses on football is a club that you feel a part of and proud of. A club that can be successful! Fans can always opt out. However when the fans see that football decisions are made or the good of the club – we feel the fans will want to continue with their support.

Why has it been reported that Buy Hibs aim to acquire the East Mains training centre but not the circa 50 acres of ground that forms part of it - what would happen to that asset?

Hibs are a football club not a property developer. We also hope that this will reduce the cost of purchasing the core assets.

You refer to Hibs failing on and off the park. We appear to have made steps to address this now with the new football structure put in place and seem to have the right people to take us forward. Would this new structure remain unaffected by any buy out?

We want to have the right people in place. We acknowledge that steps have taken place since last summer and it is those in place prior to the new management impact and influence that have failed us. We wish to support this ongoing change in performance with the new club model.

Why is Brian Penman listed as a director of Buy Hibs at Companies House but he doesn't get a mention on the "Meet The Team" page on the website?

Brian was on holiday in the lead to launch, this has now been sorted.

?????? n's previous dealings with Richard Skellet, is he one of the financial backers?

No. Richard has had no involvement with BuyHibs.

Given Andrew Sibley's previous dealings with Brian Kennedy, is he one of the financial backers?


No. Brian has had no involvement with BuyHibs and if the media are correct he is more likely to invest in another Championship club


to be continued...

[grunt]

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?294600-BuyHibs-Q-amp-A-Answers&p=4229824#post4229824

Some interesting content here.

[BuyHibs]

There is a clear mention on the website that no investors were currently in place, yet it appeared from the launch that there was mention that backers were in place to invest. Which one is it? And do you not think that the credibility of your initiative would increase markedly if some of these backers made themselves known.

We are still awaiting a response from STF and RP if they will accept our proposal and more significantly what price they place on the assets. Whilst discussions are ongoing with investors nothing has been agreed as their final decision to participate will depend on the price being asked.

How much money has been pledged per month so far and what is your target?


The BuyHibs campaign only started last week and until we have answered questions and more widely engaged with our Fans we will respectfully withhold this information until we can build greater momentum.

Is there a Lender of Last Resort already lined up and what rate of interest will they charge on loans?

The lender of last resort is only required if the football club is badly managed or is in crisis. As previously stated we expect the CIC to be financially self-sustaining.

There are a couple of scenarios we are working with. These will be revealed in due course. What is important to note is that we would never allow our club to be held to ransom.

In reality the fans are the lender of last resort, they invest more into the club than anyone.

Will there be a paid board of directors replacing the current board and how much in salary would we be expecting them to take?

We would not expect any material differences in Board Costs. Please remember the current board only has 4 paid directors.

Neil Wheelan mentioned in the Evening News that the current budget was embarrassing and that hopefully this would provide the manager with more money to spend. How much do you know of our budget relevant to other clubs to form that opinion and in what way would the fans buying a majority of the club lead to more money being available to the manager?

Looking at our turnover compared to what we understand the player budget to be, the % of turnover spent on players is less than 30%. That is not acceptable and must be increased to give Alan Stubbs a better chance with more resources available.

What is the Buy Hibs view on getting the holding company to transfer some equity to the wider fan base via a new share issue with funds raised being treated as new money to improve the playing side?

As a community interest company we would consider all reasonable options so long as it is in the best interest of the club. Dependant on the deal being proposed, we would have to consider who gets to manage the money, what the shares are worth and what protection it would give to our assets.

As part of your proposals, Buy Hibs has stated that a dividend of up 10% would be offered to financial backers. Will this not take money out of the club into the private investor’s pockets?

This is the proposed (we will be revising downwards) that the CIC could return and we have included as a guideline for any potential investors that may be willing to provide a loan to BuyHibs and would require interest payments on their loan. This is not an investment opportunity for money makers. Investors will be Hibs people and we expect all monies to remain within the club.

Are any investments from Buy Hibs directors or mystery backer’s dependant/conditional on there being up to a 10% dividend on that investment?

No.

On the offer of a dividend of up to 10% being paid to financial backers, what safeguards will there be to prevent a couple of larger shareholder/private investors being tempted to sell the club on for a profit to speculators who may have a different aim to the present Buy Hibs one.

The 10% cap will be amended downward to represent current interest rates. For 100% clarity this is only built in to allow investors that are willing to loan monies to BuyHibs to be able to obtain interest payments at market rates.

You have gone for the public/private community interest company model. Why do you believe that fan ownership would not work?

The CIC is the vehicle used to protect the clubs assets and gain fan ownership.

It has been stated that the Motherwell model (and the Kilmarnock model) both failed because they were management-led? What makes you think than campaigns like yours can only succeed if they are fan-led?

When the fans have the desire and passion to choose to back Hibs via a CIC that is driven by the fans for the fans there is true ownership, not an opt in scenario driven by the management of the existing regime (that we have seen fail in Motherwell) We believe our fans have the passion and the drive and our plan offer the transparency that has been so terribly lacking with our current management structure..

Given that the Leanne Dempster/John Boyle management-led community scheme appears to have failed at Motherwell would you consider joining forces with Leeann on a joint venture to ensure greater success?

We will talk and potentially work with anyone who can help make our proposal work. However, at this stage the only people that can make decisions are the current owners. We have already asked for discussions with them.

What would the management structure look like if the Buy Hibs proposal succeeds?

The new executive management team appears to be working; however the answer is unknown at this point. It will depend on the answers and appetite for this model from STF and RP and also any potential new investors. It is however likely to change as would with any business merger or acquisition.

Who would be on the Board?

We cannot say at this point. It will become clearer upon negotiations with the current owners and reflecting the views, experience and expertise that new investors and shareholders would bring with them.

How would they be appointed? Democratically elected? For what term?
BuyHibs representative(s) on the board would be by election and open to all

If STF retains 26% of the shareholding he could still be the largest shareholder. What if he insists on Rod Petrie remaining on the board?

With the change in business model, board restructure is almost a certainty. This will take extensive dialogue with the existing owners but; the new model will require a fresh approach to the culture leadership that embraces the CIC and BuyHibs principles.


What happens to the current loans? One of £2.5million is repayable in a lump sum in 2020.

We are looking for both the bank and STF to work with us to reduce or remove the debt as lenders accept that the CIC are for the benefit of the community.

You make mention of three and five year plans should you be successful. What is the detail of these and how will you go about achieving them?

Having the best people in place with increased resources and fans that are re-engaged with the club; we will see increase revenue which will ensure we continue to support Alan Stubbs and his team to make the long overdue improvements to our entire playing squad.

Buy Hibs talked about having engaged with people willing to 'help' fill 150 executive seats in the West Stand. What does this 'help' consist of?

It is commonly recognised that there is a poor level of exclusivity and sense of value attached to these seats. We propose to review this immediately and go to our contacts within the Hibs Community returning the desirability, value for money with renewed Hibs Hospitality that the new regime will bring.

Will you follow through with the current board’s new infrastructure projects, or will they be scrapped.

The most important thing for BuyHibs is the clubs success so we will continue with all existing plans and projects that will satisfy this aim.


How will the player transfer budget and wage structure be determined?

Club revenues/Income/Pledges from fans will determine this.

What plans do the investors have for the current employees such as Dempster and Stubbs?

Nothing has been discussed in terms of employees; there are certainly no plans to remove employees. We are keen that the failing from the current regime are dealt with so they do not affect the new plans for our Clubs future.

Where does the Buy Hibs initiative go if there simply aren't enough pledges from supporters? Do they just walk away? Do they have a Plan B?

The fans will determine the fate of our club. Without the fans backing there is no club. We consider this to be plan B. There is no plan C that will keep the club, training facilities and stadium together through fan ownership. And plan A has failed us all.

But yes, depending on fan backing demonstrating an appetite to change we may have to walk away if this is not backed.


Will the directors of Buy Hibs stand down/offer themselves for re-election along with others nominated to represent the fans being asked to fund the acquisition once or if the acquisition objective of Buy Hibs has been achieved?
Yes


What will be the model of decision making at the club, and how will this work in practice? In short, what influence will the fan owners have?

Nothing would change from current decision making process with each member of the Board having a vote. However a number of Directors would represent the Fans; with the views of fans being collated through voting (one member one vote).

[BuyHibs]

Why is it considered necessary to set up a new CIC rather than converting the existing company?

Converting HFC Holdings into a CIC would be the easiest way to achieve our aims. Currently BuyHibs is a company limited by guarantee however can be converted into a CIC if required.


Have any assurances been sought from the bank that debt forgiveness will be forthcoming? Is there a plan B if the forgiveness does not materialise?

No. Only the current owners can approach the Bank. Without a level of debt forgiveness Hibs will have a very difficult future and that is regardless of the intentions of BuyHibs

Would future budgets include the cost of removal of the current directors?

Most directors receive no remuneration.

How will the business share element of the proposed ownership model be structured and how will these shares be valued?

All shares will be of equal value. The value will be set by STF and RP when they disclose the price wanted for the assets of the Club

Why can’t the fans pledging money simply buy shares, at the same value as the business investors?

That will be the case. However our proposal is for the Fans to purchase shares as a single group under the BuyHibs banner allowing the Fans to have Board representation.

Were assessments of the pros and cons of other methods of acquiring an influence in the club explored? If so I think it might help inform a few of us to know why the Buy Hibs option is a better option.
Great question. Yes we considered straight forward purchases of shares in Hibs from HFC Holdings (STF and RP) however the level of debt contained in the club could make this prohibitive.
We also considered an Industrial Provident Society ownership model (like Portsmouth) however a CIC provides greater flexibility and protection to our assets via the asset lock provision within a CIC.

Why is the fans share limited to 25% but private investors 49%?
There are no limits on the Fans ownership. We merely provided options to provide flexibility in our proposals. Our most desired model would be 51%/49% as previously stated.


Again thank you for your Questions, BuyHibs Team.

[RIP]

That's more than insulting G and you know it. Fans on this site have every right to comment on the group. After all, we're being asked to blindly support it. I expect better from you

I agree totally

Unfortunately these two posters are going beyond critique of the proposal and attacking the credibility and honesty of the volunteers

That is where I draw the line and question their motives. One is a long time Petrie supporter. The other has a personal axe to grind.

I am entitled to stand up for people I value

[Baldy Foghorn]

There is a clear mention on the website that no investors were currently in place, yet it appeared from the launch that there was mention that backers were in place to invest. Which one is it? And do you not think that the credibility of your initiative would increase markedly if some of these backers made themselves known.

We are still awaiting a response from STF and RP if they will accept our proposal and more significantly what price they place on the assets. Whilst discussions are ongoing with investors nothing has been agreed as their final decision to participate will depend on the price being asked.

Would it not have made sense, to find out the asking price for Club, before going ahead with asking for pledges, and potential investors? Why are the investors stalling, are they looking for the Club on the cheap?

[Mikey]

I agree totally

Unfortunately these two posters are going beyond critique of the proposal and attacking the credibility and honesty of the volunteers

That is where I draw the line and question their motives. One is a long time Petrie supporter. The other has a personal axe to grind.

I am entitled to stand up for people I value

If you're going to continue the nonsense about club insiders posting on here you'll be standing up for them over the road.

[matty_f]

I agree totally

Unfortunately these two posters are going beyond critique of the proposal and attacking the credibility and honesty of the volunteers

That is where I draw the line and question their motives. One is a long time Petrie supporter. The other has a personal axe to grind.

I am entitled to stand up for people I value

They're not volunteers, Gogs. As far as I can see they are putting money in - investors.

It's right that they come under scrutiny. Look at The Rangers mess, Craig Whyte should have come under more scrutiny than he did, personally I don't want Hibs fans to make the same mistake.

FWIW, I thought your comments were uncalled for and more than a little insulting.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Quote from Q&A

Only the current owners can approach the Bank. Without a level of debt forgiveness Hibs will have a very difficult future and that is regardless of the intentions of BuyHibs

1. So the Bank are just going to say - thats fiine don't worry about a few million - sure shareholders / bank clients will have plenty to say about that !!

2. CWG will keep me right, but Hibs have a clear timeline to pay of the remaining mortgages on the stands, which the bank are happy with - they know STF is there, so please explain why Hibs will have a very difficult future without BuyHibs ?

[The Green Goblin]

Hi,

Please find below the answers given by the Directors in relation to posters questions. Our replies have been put in bold.

Other than the Board Statement which said that the club was looking forward to working with Buy Hibs, have you had any encouragement from the club in your efforts so far?

Yes - the board of BuyHibs has been invited to meet the board of Hibernian




I think I am right in saying that you have since refused that invitation. (If that is incorrect, I will remove this post).

Can you explain why you did this? It doesn't seem like a helpful or progressive decision to me. (Apologies if I have missed an answer to this in your posts above). Thanks. GG

[grunt]

Buy Hibs talked about having engaged with people willing to 'help' fill 150 executive seats in the West Stand. What does this 'help' consist of?

It is commonly recognised that there is a poor level of exclusivity and sense of value attached to these seats. We propose to review this immediately and go to our contacts within the Hibs Community returning the desirability, value for money with renewed Hibs Hostility that the new regime will bring.


Good one.

[Broken Gnome]

Wages to turnover is 30%?!?!?

[grunt]

Just had a look at the Q&A posted by the BuyHibs crew. Seems to me there's a lot of marketing speak in the answers, very little if any financial know how seems to be apparent.

And they are expecting the bank and STF to forgive large parts of the debt - "for the benefit of the community". Right-o.

[Jonnyboy]

Wages to turnover is 30%?!?!?

Only if their 'understanding' of the player budget is correct. Or, in other words, it's a guess based on their 'understanding' as opposed to fact

[bingo70]

Quote from Q&A

Only the current owners can approach the Bank. Without a level of debt forgiveness Hibs will have a very difficult future and that is regardless of the intentions of BuyHibs

1. So the Bank are just going to say - thats fiine don't worry about a few million - sure shareholders / bank clients will have plenty to say about that !!

2. CWG will keep me right, but Hibs have a clear timeline to pay of the remaining mortgages on the stands, which the bank are happy with - they know STF is there, so please explain why Hibs will have a very difficult future without BuyHibs ?

The banks did it for Dundee utd and killie did they not?

[DarlingtonHibee]

Wages to turnover is 30%?!?!?

Think its higher than that - its in the last set of accounts.

Remember we do have other costs !

[Beefster]

Wages to turnover is 30%?!?!?

No chance. It's this sort of information from folk who want to buy the club that makes me despair.

[DarlingtonHibee]

The banks did it for Dundee utd and killie did they not?

Pretty sure Dundee Utd was a private arrangment, not sure about Killie but I think it was also.

[Broken Gnome]

Only if their 'understanding' of the player budget is correct. Or, in other words, it's a guess based on their 'understanding' as opposed to fact

Exactly my point - that's ridiculously low. To the point of being unbelievable.

[BuyHibs]

Good one.


Great spot! thanks for that :aok:

changed.

[bingo70]

Just had a look at the Q&A posted by the BuyHibs crew. Seems to me there's a lot of marketing speak in the answers, very little if any financial know how seems to be apparent.

And they are expecting the bank and STF to forgive large parts of the debt - "for the benefit of the community". Right-o.

Is that not the deal Dundee utd and killie did recently?

Football debt us high risk so I'm sure I heard banks have an appetite to come to an arrangement that will get it off there books.

Happy to be corrected if what I'm saying isn't true or I've misunderstood what I thought I'd heard

[grunt]

Wages to turnover is 30%?!?!?Reported wages to turnover was 49% in the 2013 accounts, due to a combination of lower staff costs (£3.9m) and the highest turnover in five years. I expect that turnover will have fallen this year (financial year ended July 2014), so would expect the percentage to have increased again. What it is this current year is anyone's guess. Wages to turnover ratio for the last five published accounts was 61%, 68%, 69%, 60%, 49%.

[bingo70]

Pretty sure Dundee Utd was a private arrangment, not sure about Killie but I think it was also.

Sorry, don't know what you mean?

Private arrangement with who? Was it not with the bank? That's what I thought buyhibs were trying to do?

[grunt]

Great spot! thanks for that :aok:

changed.I rather liked the idea of a Hibs Hostility section!

[offshorehibby]

As part of your proposals, Buy Hibs has stated that a dividend of up 10% would be offered to financial backers. Will this not take money out of the club into the private investor’s pockets?

This is the proposed (we will be revising downwards) that the CIC could return and we have included as a guideline for any potential investors that may be willing to provide a loan to BuyHibs and would require interest payments on their loan. This is not an investment opportunity for money makers. Investors will be Hibs people and we expect all monies to remain within the club.

This bit concerns me, why would we wanting to take on a loan (more debt)

[DarlingtonHibee]

Sorry, don't know what you mean?

Private arrangement with who? Was it not with the bank? That's what I thought buyhibs were trying to do?

I think a small group of weathly supporters at Dundee United squared up the bank to save on interest charges etc...

Gut feel is the main shareholder at Killie wrote off afair bit .

Could be wrong though !

:greengrin

[Eyrie]

Is that not the deal Dundee utd and killie did recently?

Football debt us high risk so I'm sure I heard banks have an appetite to come to an arrangement that will get it off there books.

Happy to be corrected if what I'm saying isn't true or I've misunderstood what I thought I'd heard

I suspect that their situations were different to our own. The bank could take one look at Hibs reducing the debt on schedule each year with Farmer as guarantor, and decide that there is no need to write anything off as there is no risk.

[SneakersO'Toole]

No chance. It's this sort of information from folk who want to buy the club that makes me despair.

They could just be referring to the playing staff wages only, which would make it more believable.

[CropleyWasGod]

For the avoidance of doubt, the wages figure in the accounts includes all staff. That is football staff and admin.

The amount for football staff is not in the public domain. I do, though, remember the playing staff % being mentioned at the AGM in 2012. Can't remember if it was mentioned in 2013.

[Eyrie]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm confused though as to why a "10% dividend" rule is needed to allow the CIC to pay interest on a loan. Dividends are paid to shareholders, not to lenders. Unless I've picked this up wrongly?

[lord bunberry]

Quote from Q&A

Only the current owners can approach the Bank. Without a level of debt forgiveness Hibs will have a very difficult future and that is regardless of the intentions of BuyHibs

1. So the Bank are just going to say - thats fiine don't worry about a few million - sure shareholders / bank clients will have plenty to say about that !!

2. CWG will keep me right, but Hibs have a clear timeline to pay of the remaining mortgages on the stands, which the bank are happy with - they know STF is there, so please explain why Hibs will have a very difficult future without BuyHibs ?
Has the bank not just allowed Killie and Dundee Utd to write off a large amount of debt?

[marinello59]

Thanks for the replies. It'll take me a while to digest that lot. :greengrin

[DarlingtonHibee]

Has the bank not just allowed Killie and Dundee Utd to write off a large amount of debt?

think a small group of weathly supporters at Dundee United squared up the bank to save on interest charges etc...

Gut feel is the main shareholder at Killie wrote off afair bit .

Could be wrong though !

[The Green Goblin]

I think I am right in saying that you have since refused that invitation. (If that is incorrect, I will remove this post).

Can you explain why you did this? It doesn't seem like a helpful or progressive decision to me. (Apologies if I have missed an answer to this in your posts above). Thanks. GG

Bump.

[w pilton hibby]

The banks did it for Dundee utd and killie did they not?

Nope. Dundee United debts were cleared by a group of fans and businessmen who paid £4million owed to Bank of Scotland.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/finance-expert-hails-dundee-utd-3132959

Kilmarnock sold the hotel and a couple of the directors cancelled existing loans to the club.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/club-sold-park-hotel-24-3429341

[bingo70]

Nope. Dundee United debts were cleared by a group of fans and businessmen who paid £4million owed to Bank of Scotland.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/finance-expert-hails-dundee-utd-3132959

Kilmarnock sold the hotel and a couple of the directors cancelled existing loans to the club.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/club-sold-park-hotel-24-3429341

Cheers.

[silverhibee]

Cheers.

And there is the couple who are clearing Aberdeen's debt of around £15m.

With the Owner "Stewart Milne Group" increasing his stake in the club with £4.5m.

[Sergio sledge]

I don't see why any bank would offer debt forgiveness when the value of the assets are roughly equivalent to/greater than the value of the loans and a clear timeline to pay the mortgages off. The club has £6.5m(?) mortgages, with ER and EM being worth at least that I would have said. This isn't 'bad debt' in the sense that debt far outweighs the assets and the debtor can't make the scheduled payments. It is a bit of a stretch for buyhibs to expect, and seem to budget for, the bank forgiving some of the debt.

[DC_Hibs]

Nope. Dundee United debts were cleared by a group of fans and businessmen who paid £4million owed to Bank of Scotland.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/finance-expert-hails-dundee-utd-3132959

Kilmarnock sold the hotel and a couple of the directors cancelled existing loans to the club.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/club-sold-park-hotel-24-3429341


Its common knowledge that the bank takes a "haircut" in these instances by agreeing a reduced figure making it worthwhile for both parties.

BuyHibs are hoping for the same although the bank's chances of being repaid and security in respect of our loan mean it might not be so easy to achieve.

[ancient hibee]

Its common knowledge that the bank takes a "haircut" in these instances by agreeing a reduced figure making it worthwhile for both parties.

BuyHibs are hoping for the same although the bank's chances of being repaid and security in respect of our loan mean it might not be so easy to achieve.

The bank was repaid at Dundee-it wasn't the bank that was owed the money at Killie.The bank certainly did not lose out in either case.

[Caversham Green]

As part of your proposals, Buy Hibs has stated that a dividend of up 10% would be offered to financial backers. Will this not take money out of the club into the private investor’s pockets?

This is the proposed (we will be revising downwards) that the CIC could return and we have included as a guideline for any potential investors that may be willing to provide a loan to BuyHibs and would require interest payments on their loan. This is not an investment opportunity for money makers. Investors will be Hibs people and we expect all monies to remain within the club.

This bit concerns me, why would we wanting to take on a loan (more debt)

That concerns me too. Dividends are a voluntary sharing out of profits made - i.e. they don't ever have to be paid - interest is a compulsory charge on profit, paid every year thereby reducing cash availability. The blurring of lines between the two is worrying. Also, in those circumstances 10% can only refer to 10% of investment - that's five times the rate the club is currently paying. It needs to be revised down a long way.

On the matter of other clubs settling their debt, my opinion is that the banks saw those debts as vulnerable because they were secured on assets of diminishing value and the clubs themselves were close to insolvency. For those reasons the banks were happy to give a discount for immediate cash - they didn't just write off the debts for no reason. In our case the debts are secured by personal guarantee so if the club was to fail the bank would get their money anyway. That means they may look less favourably on a discount for immediate payment.

On a minor matter, they've misunderstood my question about converting the existing company to a CIC - converting the holding company needs a problem before it can be a solution, I was suggesting converting Hibernian FC Ltd to a CIC - that's the company that actually owns all the assets and fields a football team and the one whose share capital they're proposing to buy. If that was a CIC ER and EM would be locked into the club. They'd have to sell off the land a EM before conversion if they don't want to keep it though.

[Saturday Boy]

This whole thing reminds me of the French epigram, "plus ca change" but in this case, it appears that the more things stay the same, the more they change, if you know what I mean.

[ancient hibee]

Brian Kennedy was hoping to get 3%p.a.from Rangers but was prepared to get none.The use of 10% is way above any kind of return available for a loan shows woolly thinking at best or ignorance at worst.There should be no mention of a dividend in any shape or form.What security would be offered to those making loans?Don't think that possibility has been mentioned anywhere.

[Leithenhibby]

I agree totally

Unfortunately these two posters are going beyond critique of the proposal and attacking the credibility and honesty of the volunteers

That is where I draw the line and question their motives. One is a long time Petrie supporter. The other has a personal axe to grind.

I am entitled to stand up for people I value

Is that not the case for every Hibernian fan?..... We are "ALL" entitled to an opinion and some may not like what the other one says/claims, but we just have to suck it up........


They're not volunteers, Gogs. As far as I can see they are putting money in - investors.

It's right that they come under scrutiny. Look at The Rangers mess, Craig Whyte should have come under more scrutiny than he did, personally I don't want Hibs fans to make the same mistake.

FWIW, I thought your comments were uncalled for and more than a little insulting.

It's imperative, as fans, we leave no stone unturned :agree:

EDIT: This needs to be right for our club....

[Andy74]

I agree totally

Unfortunately these two posters are going beyond critique of the proposal and attacking the credibility and honesty of the volunteers

That is where I draw the line and question their motives. One is a long time Petrie supporter. The other has a personal axe to grind.

I am entitled to stand up for people I value

Too much of this from the people involved is a big part of the reason there is a lack of credibility. Recent owners at other clubs show that if anyone wants to be a director of a company owning Hibs they better stand up to scrutiny.

[Andy74]

Thanks for the replies. It'll take me a while to digest that lot. :greengrin

It won't really!

[grunt]

What will be the model of decision making at the club, and how will this work in practice? In short, what influence will the fan owners have?

Nothing would change from current decision making process with each member of the Board having a vote. However a number of Directors would represent the Fans; with the views of fans being collated through voting (one member one vote).So a fan with 1 share will have the same voting rights as a fan with 1000 shares?

[Ronniekirk]

It won't really!

Read it all ,and haven't come away thinking this is well thought through ,am not optimistic this is going to be the catalyst for sustainable change but it's early days yet. I am someone that would be prepared to pay something monthly but at this stage there isn't enough substance to make me pledge money at present .
Was Green Goblins question answered about whether buy Hibs have turned down a meeting with the Club ?

[IanM]

Read it all ,and haven't come away thinking this is well thought through ,am not optimistic this is going to be the catalyst for sustainable change but it's early days yet. I am someone that would be prepared to pay something monthly but at this stage there isn't enough substance to make me pledge money at present .
Was Green Goblins question answered about whether buy Hibs have turned down a meeting with the Club ?

It was in yesterday's news - the response was that they asked to meet with the 'owners' and they got a reply saying the 'board' want to talk to them, which they refused.

I'll try find the link, think it was in the evening news though, i read it on twitter

[Caversham Green]

It was in yesterday's news - the response was that they asked to meet with the 'owners' and they got a reply saying the 'board' want to talk to them, which they refused.

I'll try find the link, think it was in the evening news though, i read it on twitter

The two aren't mutually exclusive though, and they would undoubtedly have the necessary contact with STF at the appropriate time if the sale was to proceed. A meeting with the board of the company they're proposing to take over - together with a director of the prospective selling company - would be far more productive at this stage than a meeting with the non-participating 'owner', particularly when the board have been formulating their own plans for a sale. Declining this meeting has done nothing but harm to their cause.

[Andy74]

The reason I've been concerned about how much actual expertise and experience that the team have is that I am not convinced that there would be enough knowlege and understanding to make this work.

These anwers have underlined this to me - not much understanding, not much detail. When you talk up your credentials you have to be able to deliver the area of expertise you say you have.

After all, this is the board of a company that want to own Hibs.

[superfurryhibby]

The two aren't mutually exclusive though, and they would undoubtedly have the necessary contact with STF at the appropriate time if the sale was to proceed. A meeting with the board of the company they're proposing to take over - together with a director of the prospective selling company - would be far more productive at this stage than a meeting with the non-participating 'owner', particularly when the board have been formulating their own plans for a sale. Declining this meeting has done nothing but harm to their cause.

Have I missed something in all of this? What plan have the Hibs board been formulating?

[CropleyWasGod]

Have I missed something in all of this? What plan have the Hibs board been formulating?

They are expected to announce something at the AGM.



2017. :greengrin

[worcesterhibby]

So a fan with 1 share will have the same voting rights as a fan with 1000 shares?

As far as I can see fans wouldn't get a direct vote no matter how many shares they had. BuyHibs would have elected members on the board who would get to vote on Hibs fans behalf.

[Andy74]

As far as I can see fans wouldn't get a direct vote no matter how many shares they had. BuyHibs would have elected members on the board who would get to vote on Hibs fans behalf.

Voting and board membership are different things. But, you are right in that donating to this does not get you shares or a vote at the AGM as far as I can see. The owners of those shares bought with your money would be BuyHibs and they would vote at the AGM. I haven't seen any discussion of a mechanism to make that vote representative of the membership.

Edit: I'm not sure they fully understand in their answer either the difference between voting at AGMs and board decisions - they are talking about voting on board matters and asking the membership with one vote per member. Totally impractical to do this on all board decisions. You don't tend to get much voting on board anyway, it is a collegiate decision generally.

[Caversham Green]

Have I missed something in all of this? What plan have the Hibs board been formulating?

Much of their own survey revolved around the prospect of fan ownership and Leeann has hinted at it in many of her meetings with fans. In the board's statement in response to BuyHibs' approach they said:


It is well known that the Board has been consulting widely with supporters and is fine tuning its strategy for the future of the Club.

It seems reasonable to infer that sale of the club is a part of that strategy. Of course they haven't publicised those plans yet, presumably they want to present a joined-up strategy before they do - something that BuyHibs would have benefitted from.

[jacomo]

Reported wages to turnover was 49% in the 2013 accounts, due to a combination of lower staff costs (£3.9m) and the highest turnover in five years. I expect that turnover will have fallen this year (financial year ended July 2014), so would expect the percentage to have increased again. What it is this current year is anyone's guess. Wages to turnover ratio for the last five published accounts was 61%, 68%, 69%, 60%, 49%.

Yes, but this figure covers other wages beyond the playing staff does it not? I don't think its possible to determine the budget just for the squad from the published accounts.

[GreenPJ]

Brian Kennedy was hoping to get 3%p.a.from Rangers but was prepared to get none.The use of 10% is way above any kind of return available for a loan shows woolly thinking at best or ignorance at worst.There should be no mention of a dividend in any shape or form.What security would be offered to those making loans?Don't think that possibility has been mentioned anywhere.

Is that not the point, there is no security for those making the loans but in return there is an offer of a high but discretionary dividend aka interest rate? They are relying again that people investing are doing it for the benefit of the football club as opposed to an investment opportunity.

[Keith_M]

I rather liked the idea of a Hibs Hostility section!


Me too. Let's face it, we could fill it no bother :greengrin

[The Green Goblin]

It was in yesterday's news - the response was that they asked to meet with the 'owners' and they got a reply saying the 'board' want to talk to them, which they refused.

I'll try find the link, think it was in the evening news though, i read it on twitter

Thanks. However, my question was, "why" did they refuse?

[The Green Goblin]

Was Green Goblins question answered about whether buy Hibs have turned down a meeting with the Club ?

Thanks Ronnie. As I posted to IanM above (on my phone so can't multiquote!) the question aacknowledged that they had refused the meeting and was asking why they had done that. So no, it hasn't been answered. Cheers.

[The Green Goblin]

I think I am right in saying that you have since refused that invitation. (If that is incorrect, I will remove this post).

Can you explain why you did this? It doesn't seem like a helpful or progressive decision to me. (Apologies if I have missed an answer to this in your posts above). Thanks. GG

Bumped again, as other posters have mentioned it. (Thanks RK and IM)

[ronaldo7]

Much of their own survey revolved around the prospect of fan ownership and Leeann has hinted at it in many of her meetings with fans. In the board's statement in response to BuyHibs' approach they said:



It seems reasonable to infer that sale of the club is a part of that strategy. Of course they haven't publicised those plans yet, presumably they want to present a joined-up strategy before they do - something that BuyHibs would have benefitted from.

She did more than hint at the meeting I attended. She said she had a plan but was wanting to throw it out to the fans to see if anything else was out there. I just wish those at BuyHibs and the Club (STF/Petrie/Board) would get together and do what's best for our club. They are "ALL" jockeying around for a position that makes them look good imo.

[The Baldmans Comb]

I am becoming more and more impressed by this BuyHibs group. They are a little naïve but very well intentioned and I have decided to make a pledge.

No money changes hands as yet but I am happy to give them my qualified support and allow things to develop.

I can't say I know any of the posters here but there does seem to be a lot of very closed minds unwilling to listen fairly to anything that is just a little different from the norm.

[HappyAsHellas]

I am becoming more and more impressed by this BuyHibs group. They are a little naïve but very well intentioned and I have decided to make a pledge.

No money changes hands as yet but I am happy to give them my qualified support and allow things to develop.

I can't say I know any of the posters here but there does seem to be a lot of very closed minds unwilling to listen fairly to anything that is just a little different from the norm.

I don't think people are unwilling to listen - I asked the question about the German model and they said they would like the fans to have 49% which on the face of it seems fine. The only troubling matter is where does the 49% of the costs come from? The fans would then, as I see it be responsible for almost half the turnover every year, which amounts to more than what I think is affordable. It has to come down to money being available every year and this is a problem for me. Even FoH are running at 80% of their promised DD's, and that's when they're top of the league and everything looking rosy. One dodgy season and the whole house of cards can come tumbling down. I would like fan participation and we all pay in our own way, so I think 20% would be more realistic, but that's just my thoughts on the matter. I am still undecided, but erring on the side of caution - for Hibs sake.

[jacomo]

Personally I don't think DD funds are a viable long term proposition, and I expect FoH will find people steadily dropping away at Hearts. It's a bit alarming when such a source of funding is referred to as a way of bolstering the player budget year on year.

However, it is possible that you could use this scheme to build up a buy out fund, and then replace it with something else. As it stands, season ticket holders are the biggest investors in the club year in year out, and something that builds upon this model - maybe a lower-priced membership scheme - could be the way forward.

The focus should be on filling ER - that in itself would address many issues.

[Andy74]

I am becoming more and more impressed by this BuyHibs group. They are a little naïve but very well intentioned and I have decided to make a pledge.

No money changes hands as yet but I am happy to give them my qualified support and allow things to develop.

I can't say I know any of the posters here but there does seem to be a lot of very closed minds unwilling to listen fairly to anything that is just a little different from the norm.

Interesting. What has impressed you?

I dont see any closed minds at all. Just lots of challenge which you have to expect.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Interesting. What has impressed you?

I dont see any closed minds at all. Just lots of challenge which you have to expect.

I liked the original presentation brought by the St Pats boys video stream. I liked the Hibs credentials of the people involved.I liked the fact that they are just taking one step at a time and not going to go for 100% outright ownership and are willing to work with high worth individuals with more clout and I liked the fact that their block of shares would be under the control of one member one vote and finally I thought their Q and A's were well answered.

Fundamentally I like the structure of fan involvement in the running of a football club to a greater or lesser extent. This doesn't have to be outright ownership and the BuyHibs people seem to recognise this.

I agree everything should be challenged but there seems to be some posters who find one or two things they don't like and immediately call everything a shambles, fiasco or every other negative adjective they can conjure.

Where do you stand? What do you like/not like?

[Mikey]

Buyhibs and Forever Hibernian are the same are they not? (ie Kano's)

I believe so.

My understanding is that after Forever Hibernian made an offer of £1 for the club (debt free), they were told to go away and come back with something that was workable.

BuyHibs is their answer.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I believe so.

My understanding is that after Forever Hibernian made an offer of £1 for the club (debt free), they were told to go away and come back with something that was workable.

BuyHibs is their answer.

Can't believe Hibs knocked that back, the sheer audacity of STF:cb

[DarlingtonHibee]

I believe so.

My understanding is that after Forever Hibernian made an offer of £1 for the club (debt free), they were told to go away and come back with something that was workable.

BuyHibs is their answer.

Maybe if they offered a discount at the four in hand that might sway it -- £1 and debt free - LOL

[greenginger]

I believe so.

My understanding is that after Forever Hibernian made an offer of £1 for the club (debt free), they were told to go away and come back with something that was workable.

BuyHibs is their answer.

Offer of £1 :confused:

Is that where Craig Whyte has been hiding !

Even he did'nt have the nerve to ask Murray to pay off the Rangers debts before he let himself out.

[Andy74]

I liked the original presentation brought by the St Pats boys video stream. I liked the Hibs credentials of the people involved.I liked the fact that they are just taking one step at a time and not going to go for 100% outright ownership and are willing to work with high worth individuals with more clout and I liked the fact that their block of shares would be under the control of one member one vote and finally I thought their Q and A's were well answered.

Fundamentally I like the structure of fan involvement in the running of a football club to a greater or lesser extent. This doesn't have to be outright ownership and the BuyHibs people seem to recognise this.

I agree everything should be challenged but there seems to be some posters who find one or two things they don't like and immediately call everything a shambles, fiasco or every other negative adjective they can conjure.

Where do you stand? What do you like/not like?

Fundamentally I don't see why I would need to pay more money, like 80% on top of my season ticket to own a football club. I want to watch one.

I haven't seen anything that suggests I need to be thinking about owning the club.

I don't like the timing. We have to be together at this time I think and supporting the changes the club are making.

I don't like the fact it is going against what the consulatations and club survey returned in terms of appetite for this.

As for the group, I am not impressed with the quality of the expertise. I really dislike the fact that their experience has been talked up to be something its not in some cases. I think it has been badly thought out and badly delivered.

Have they got investors or not? Depends who you ask - there is some suggestion that fans in Australia got to hear some names - we didn't.

The one vote per member thing illustrates some lack of knowledge - their thinking is a bit mixed up and is confusing board membership and decision making with shareholder voting at the AGM. Members won't own any shares so I'm not sure what the mechanism they are talking about is and i don't think they know.

Their idea that the debt will be written off is frankly laughable and their examples aren't comparable.

They don't seem to understand interest versus dividend. Either way I'm not in favour of profit leaving the club.

I'm certainly not in favour of them backing out of talking to the Board. Their Communications Director, on the PM board, welcomed the statement form Leeann on the day it came out as positive news, now though, they don't want to talk. Seems to me like a pressure group, not a sensible approach.

There's more but I'm sure that gives some idea..

[ancient hibee]

Fundamentally I don't see why I would need to pay more money, like 80% on top of my season ticket to own a football club. I want to watch one.

I haven't seen anything that suggests I need to be thinking about owning the club.

I don't like the timing. We have to be together at this time I think and supporting the changes the club are making.

I don't like the fact it is going against what the consulatations and club survey returned in terms of appetite for this.

As for the group, I am not impressed with the quality of the expertise. I really dislike the fact that their experience has been talked up to be something its not in some cases. I think it has been badly thought out and badly delivered.

Have they got investors or not? Depends who you ask - there is some suggestion that fans in Australia got to hear some names - we didn't.

The one vote per member thing illustrates some lack of knowledge - their thinking is a bit mixed up and is confusing board membership and decision making with shareholder voting at the AGM. Members won't own any shares so I'm not sure what the mechanism they are talking about is and i don't think they know.

Their idea that the debt will be written off is frankly laughable and their examples aren't comparable.

They don't seem to understand interest versus dividend. Either way I'm not in favour of profit leaving the club.

I'm certainly not in favour of them backing out of talking to the Board. Their Communications Director, on the PM board, welcomed the statement form Leeann on the day it came out as positive news, now though, they don't want to talk. Seems to me like a pressure group, not a sensible approach.

There's more but I'm sure that gives some idea..

:top marks

Thank you -you've saved me a lot of keying.

[jdships]

Fundamentally I don't see why I would need to pay more money, like 80% on top of my season ticket to own a football club. I want to watch one.

I haven't seen anything that suggests I need to be thinking about owning the club.

I don't like the timing. We have to be together at this time I think and supporting the changes the club are making.

I don't like the fact it is going against what the consulatations and club survey returned in terms of appetite for this.

As for the group, I am not impressed with the quality of the expertise. I really dislike the fact that their experience has been talked up to be something its not in some cases. I think it has been badly thought out and badly delivered.

Have they got investors or not? Depends who you ask - there is some suggestion that fans in Australia got to hear some names - we didn't.

The one vote per member thing illustrates some lack of knowledge - their thinking is a bit mixed up and is confusing board membership and decision making with shareholder voting at the AGM. Members won't own any shares so I'm not sure what the mechanism they are talking about is and i don't think they know.

Their idea that the debt will be written off is frankly laughable and their examples aren't comparable.

They don't seem to understand interest versus dividend. Either way I'm not in favour of profit leaving the club.

I'm certainly not in favour of them backing out of talking to the Board. Their Communications Director, on the PM board, welcomed the statement form Leeann on the day it came out as positive news, now though, they don't want to talk. Seems to me like a pressure group, not a sensible approach.

There's more but I'm sure that gives some idea..



:agree:
There is Buy-Hibs, HoH, Forever Hibernian, who will be next to throw their hat in the ring ?
For me there is too much " spin" and not enough hard business acumen on view !!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I am becoming more and more impressed by this BuyHibs group. They are a little naïve but very well intentioned and I have decided to make a pledge.

No money changes hands as yet but I am happy to give them my qualified support and allow things to develop.

I can't say I know any of the posters here but there does seem to be a lot of very closed minds unwilling to listen fairly to anything that is just a little different from the norm.


I am more than willing to listen, I want to be convinced.

But all I hear back is (well intentioned though i'm sure it is) fairly amateurish and ill thought-out.

Given football's ability to attract clowns, shysters etc, I think we should all be very sceptical. The burden of proof is on those seeking our support.

What's more, they should welcome the scrutiny, they should welcome their personal credentials being called into question.

[ancient hibee]

Is that not the point, there is no security for those making the loans but in return there is an offer of a high but discretionary dividend aka interest rate? They are relying again that people investing are doing it for the benefit of the football club as opposed to an investment opportunity.

How can you say there is no security for those giving loans-has that been decided?
It's either a dividend(discretionary)or an interest payment(compulsory)can't be both.
If I loaned a million quid at 10% interest, after 5 years I would have got the equivalent of half my money back but still be due the whole lot of it.
If anyone was to get a return from Scottish football it would be the first time since Fergus at Celtic-apart from the mafia at Ibrox.

[JimBHibees]

Fundamentally I don't see why I would need to pay more money, like 80% on top of my season ticket to own a football club. I want to watch one.

I haven't seen anything that suggests I need to be thinking about owning the club.

I don't like the timing. We have to be together at this time I think and supporting the changes the club are making.

I don't like the fact it is going against what the consulatations and club survey returned in terms of appetite for this.

As for the group, I am not impressed with the quality of the expertise. I really dislike the fact that their experience has been talked up to be something its not in some cases. I think it has been badly thought out and badly delivered.

Have they got investors or not? Depends who you ask - there is some suggestion that fans in Australia got to hear some names - we didn't.

The one vote per member thing illustrates some lack of knowledge - their thinking is a bit mixed up and is confusing board membership and decision making with shareholder voting at the AGM. Members won't own any shares so I'm not sure what the mechanism they are talking about is and i don't think they know.

Their idea that the debt will be written off is frankly laughable and their examples aren't comparable.

They don't seem to understand interest versus dividend. Either way I'm not in favour of profit leaving the club.

I'm certainly not in favour of them backing out of talking to the Board. Their Communications Director, on the PM board, welcomed the statement form Leeann on the day it came out as positive news, now though, they don't want to talk. Seems to me like a pressure group, not a sensible approach.

There's more but I'm sure that gives some idea..

Spot on, couldnt agree more. All seems less than transparent and simply dont understand them not wanting to meet with the Board and discuss their plan. Investors question is completely unclear and frankly not good enough.

[offshorehibby]

Is that not the point, there is no security for those making the loans but in return there is an offer of a high but discretionary dividend aka interest rate? They are relying again that people investing are doing it for the benefit of the football club as opposed to an investment opportunity.

Why do we want to be taking on loans that just means more debt, were wanting to reduce debt.

If people are wanting to invest in Hibs fine but not a loan.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Fundamentally I don't see why I would need to pay more money, like 80% on top of my season ticket to own a football club. I want to watch one.

I haven't seen anything that suggests I need to be thinking about owning the club.

I don't like the timing. We have to be together at this time I think and supporting the changes the club are making.

I don't like the fact it is going against what the consulatations and club survey returned in terms of appetite for this.

As for the group, I am not impressed with the quality of the expertise. I really dislike the fact that their experience has been talked up to be something its not in some cases. I think it has been badly thought out and badly delivered.

Have they got investors or not? Depends who you ask - there is some suggestion that fans in Australia got to hear some names - we didn't.

The one vote per member thing illustrates some lack of knowledge - their thinking is a bit mixed up and is confusing board membership and decision making with shareholder voting at the AGM. Members won't own any shares so I'm not sure what the mechanism they are talking about is and i don't think they know.

Their idea that the debt will be written off is frankly laughable and their examples aren't comparable.

They don't seem to understand interest versus dividend. Either way I'm not in favour of profit leaving the club.

I'm certainly not in favour of them backing out of talking to the Board. Their Communications Director, on the PM board, welcomed the statement form Leeann on the day it came out as positive news, now though, they don't want to talk. Seems to me like a pressure group, not a sensible approach.

There's more but I'm sure that gives some idea..

Andy, lets be honest, they don't havea clue what they are doing, and frankly I'm not surprised STF doesn't want to waste a minute with them,, I've listen to the podcast, read the Q&A etc, its a shambles, and I'd expect a secondary pupil doing business studies to produce a better plan, the ohther option is of course it's just about ego's.

[jacomo]

Andy, lets be honest, they don't havea clue what they are doing, and frankly I'm not surprised STF doesn't want to waste a minute with them,, I've listen to the podcast, read the Q&A etc, its a shambles, and I'd expect a secondary pupil doing business studies to produce a better plan, the ohther option is of course it's just about ego's.

This seems a little hysterical, to be frank. No, not every question has been answered but they have a clear concept for future ownership (the merits of which can be debated) and have just posted answers to a lot of questions in this site.

Some people think we should remain with the status quo. It seems this isn't an option, and the club itself is preparing for a scenario post STF. We can either stick our heads in the sand and wait for a new owner to be announced to us in the fullness of time, or we can engage in the debate.

[Eyrie]

Voting and board membership are different things. But, you are right in that donating to this does not get you shares or a vote at the AGM as far as I can see. The owners of those shares bought with your money would be BuyHibs and they would vote at the AGM. I haven't seen any discussion of a mechanism to make that vote representative of the membership.

Edit: I'm not sure they fully understand in their answer either the difference between voting at AGMs and board decisions - they are talking about voting on board matters and asking the membership with one vote per member. Totally impractical to do this on all board decisions. You don't tend to get much voting on board anyway, it is a collegiate decision generally.

Looking at their pdf, BuyHibs say

30. Who would own Hibs if you are successful? The ultimate aim is for BuyHibs own 51% of Hibs and every Fan that maintains their donations to BuyHibs will have an interest in the share ownership in a one member one vote system.

In other words, as long as you're paying your monthly contribution then you will have one vote in BuyHibs, regardless of how much you are actually paying. Presumably that one vote will enable you to elect the directors of BuyHibs and to vote on who should be the BuyHibs directors on the Hibs board. Everything else will be decided by those elected.

[Ozyhibby]

BuyHibs better get their act together and start talking to the board at Hibs or I'll be withdrawing my support.

[Andy74]

Looking at their pdf, BuyHibs say


In other words, as long as you're paying your monthly contribution then you will have one vote in BuyHibs, regardless of how much you are actually paying. Presumably that one vote will enable you to elect the directors of BuyHibs and to vote on who should be the BuyHibs directors on the Hibs board. Everything else will be decided by those elected.

We are having to assume things which isn't good.

[Andy74]

This seems a little hysterical, to be frank. No, not every question has been answered but they have a clear concept for future ownership (the merits of which can be debated) and have just posted answers to a lot of questions in this site.

Some people think we should remain with the status quo. It seems this isn't an option, and the club itself is preparing for a scenario post STF. We can either stick our heads in the sand and wait for a new owner to be announced to us in the fullness of time, or we can engage in the debate.
That's more hysterical than the post you quoted.

They may have answered questions but not many questions have been answered.

[matty_f]

This was a bit lengthy for a post, so I've blogged about the BuyHibs campaign:

http://hibscomebackison.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/do-i-really-want-to-own-hibs.html#gpluscomments

[monktonharp]

The two aren't mutually exclusive though, and they would undoubtedly have the necessary contact with STF at the appropriate time if the sale was to proceed. A meeting with the board of the company they're proposing to take over - together with a director of the prospective selling company - would be far more productive at this stage than a meeting with the non-participating 'owner', particularly when the board have been formulating their own plans for a sale. Declining this meeting has done nothing but harm to their cause.like a few others, I am confused with your allegation that they are formulating bloody anything!

[monktonharp]

BuyHibs better get their act together and start talking to the board at Hibs or I'll be withdrawing my support.it looks to me that buy hibs is in the early stages, although I have not yet looked at their website. However, they seriously do want to speak to the Owners of the club, not just the board. surely that board will have a few(some) on it who have no vote? and, who is fully in charge, and with the clout ,saying exactly what kind of money they'd expect buy hibs to come up with? surely this must be ........the owner(s)? so why lambast this group of fans trying to get a foot in the door, to try and arrest the downward spiral of our club? they have asked a question, and that is, why cant the current owner(s) meet us. surely that needs a response.? I find it strange that fellow hibs fans seem keen to kick this into touch, so early

[Caversham Green]

like a few others, I am confused with your allegation that they are formulating bloody anything!

They've acted as if they are and stated that they are and now they've offered a meeting to discuss a sale with BuyHibs. The way to find out if they really were is to go to the meeting.


it looks to me that buy hibs is in the early stages, although I have not yet looked at their website. However, they seriously do want to speak to the Owners of the club, not just the board. surely that board will have a few(some) on it who have no vote? and, who is fully in charge, and with the clout ,saying exactly what kind of money they'd expect buy hibs to come up with? surely this must be ........the owner(s)? so why lambast this group of fans trying to get a foot in the door, to try and arrest the downward spiral of our club? they have asked a question, and that is, why cant the current owner(s) meet us. surely that needs a response.? I find it strange that fellow hibs fans seem keen to kick this into touch, so early

We keep getting told that STF is in his 70s and stinking rich and there's some talk of health problems. That means he's in a position to pay people to do what he doesn't want to do and we have to assume he doesn't want to get involved in the early stages of this campaign so he's paying Leeann Dempster and Rod Petrie to open these negotiations. At these early stages there's very little that STF could say that Rod and Leeann couldn't, but since STF is a non-participant in the club (something else we keep getting told about) those two could offer an awful lot more to the meeting than STF could.

In my view a meeting with the board is essential if this project is going to succeed and I'm surprised and disappointed that BuyHibs saw fit to decline this offer. If any of them are reading this I would urge them to reconsider.

[The Falcon]

We keep getting told that STF is in his 70s and stinking rich and there's some talk of health problems.

There are some who also appear to want him to hand over the whole kit and kaboodle for minimal, if any, reimbursement.

[Caversham Green]

There are some who also appear to want him to hand over the whole kit and kaboodle for minimal, if any, reimbursement.

The thing is, he might just do that if he's convinced the right people are taking over.

And the best way to convince him is to start by convincing Rod.

[The Falcon]

The thing is, he might just do that if he's convinced the right people are taking over.

And the best way to convince him is to start by convincing Rod.

I think it's a distinct possibility, probable even, but they are going to have to show him a damn sight more than they have to date. And whether they like it or not they are going to have to deal with Rod, and if they wish to be taken seriously they need to grow a set and get on with it.

[Leithenhibby]

The thing is, he might just do that if he's convinced the right people are taking over.

And the best way to convince him is to start by convincing Rod.

:agree:

Is there so much bad feeling between RP and and some members of BuyHibs that they can't even get round a table :confused:

I'd be intrigued to know their reason(s) for declining the meeting. Huge mistake IMO......

[marinello59]

:agree:

Is there so much bad feeling between RP and and some members of BuyHibs that they can't even get round a table :confused:

I'd be intrigued to know their reason(s) for declining the meeting. Huge mistake IMO......

Somebody at BuyHibs needs to rethink that decision. It's only served to divide the support they need to unite behind them.

[Mikey]

Following on from the conversation on the PM board, here's another question for Buy Hibs.........

Does Buy Hibs still exist in the format released last week or has the militant arm split off to do their own thing?

[The Green Goblin]

I'd be intrigued to know their reason(s) for declining the meeting...

Yup. Still waiting for an answer to that. Given the rumours of a "disagreement", I'm not sure there'll be one!

[Andy74]

Great communications eh?!

[blackpoolhibs]

Great communications eh?!

Surely you are not running out of patience Andy? :wink:

[jacomo]

That's more hysterical than the post you quoted.

They may have answered questions but not many questions have been answered.

Isn't that what I said??

[jacomo]

This was a bit lengthy for a post, so I've blogged about the BuyHibs campaign:

http://hibscomebackison.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/do-i-really-want-to-own-hibs.html#gpluscomments


Good read, looking at pluses and negatives - fair enough to be sceptical at this stage.

FWIW, I think BuyHibs is more transparent than FoH, which transpired to be a vehicle for fans to fund Ann Budge's takeover. But still a lot to be answered.

[Kato]

andy, lets be honest, they don't havea clue what they are doing,



ott

[Andy74]

Isn't that what I said??

Not really, no.

You also added the unfounded stuff about not being able to keep the status quo. There's been no suggestion we need to change the owner just now.

[jacomo]

Not really, no.

You also added the unfounded stuff about not being able to keep the status quo. There's been no suggestion we need to change the owner just now.

Plenty on here have reported that something is afoot, and that LD has hinted as much more than once. Seems some kind of development might be lined up for the AGM.

I don't claim any insider knowledge, so feel free to dismiss anything I say as 'the unfounded stuff' if it makes you feel better.

[Andy74]

Plenty on here have reported that something is afoot, and that LD has hinted as much more than once. Seems some kind of development might be lined up for the AGM.

I don't claim any insider knowledge, so feel free to dismiss anything I say as 'the unfounded stuff' if it makes you feel better.

It's not that it makes me feel better, it's that this keeps getting used as if we need to be doing something right now. We don't. If there are plans to do something then fine, we will hear what that is and I trust Sir Tom not to make it costly or difficult for normal fans.

That's very different than us needing to take action to safeguard the future of the club.

[Kato]

I........as if we need to be doing something right now. We don't.


Do you think it is better to be prepared, or just leave it all to the very last minute?

[Andy74]

Do you think it is better to be prepared, or just leave it all to the very last minute?

Prepare for what?

[Kato]

Prepare for what?

You are aware of the subject matter of this thread aren't you?

[jacomo]

It's not that it makes me feel better, it's that this keeps getting used as if we need to be doing something right now. We don't. If there are plans to do something then fine, we will hear what that is and I trust Sir Tom not to make it costly or difficult for normal fans.

That's very different than us needing to take action to safeguard the future of the club.

I agree the timing is bad. IMO the club should focus 100% on getting promoted and nothing else til then. Yet LD has encouraged this chat by openly discussing different ownership models with fans. Not surprising people now talking about it.

If there is no change of ownership in the offing, why did our CEO organise meetings with fans to discuss ownership? Just for fun?

[Andy74]

You are aware of the subject matter of this thread aren't you?

I am yes. What is that we HAVE to be preparing for?

[Kato]

I am yes. What is that we HAVE to be preparing for?

Succession to the current ownership. (duh)

[Andy74]

I agree the timing is bad. IMO the club should focus 100% on getting promoted and nothing else til then. Yet LD has encouraged this chat by openly discussing different ownership models with fans. Not surprising people now talking about it.

If there is no change of ownership in the offing, why did our CEO organise meetings with fans to discuss ownership? Just for fun?

She was asked this at the meetings.

She said that it was as a result of the approaches and the protests so she wanted to ask us what our plans were and what we wanted. At no point did she say that this was needed. In fact she said that the position was the same as it has always been. The owner is not looking to sell and wills only do so if an offer is in the best interests of the club.

What is happening now is a lot of talk on here about us having to actively do something. I'm asking why.

[Andy74]

Succession to the current ownership. (duh)

Hard work this. So you know we have to be doing something about this?

[Kato]

I'm asking why.


The style of the current ownership doesn't work AND nothing lasts forever.

[Kato]

Hard work this. So you know we have to be doing something about this?

I don't know we do but I think it's better than sitting on your hands waiting for improvement.

[marinello59]

The style of the current ownership doesn't work AND nothing lasts forever.

Is it the ownership model that's the problem or the series of poor managerial appointments we made? (Several of those appointments were welcomed by the fans including the most disastrous one of all, Butcher.)

[Kato]

Is it the ownership model that's the problem or the series of poor managerial appointments we made?

Who made the appointments?



(Several of those appointments were welcomed by the fans including the most disastrous one of all, Butcher.)

Part of the problem, looking on here to see who the fans would like.

[Andy74]

Who made the appointments?




Part of the problem, looking on here to see who the fans would like.

Not the owner!

[Kato]

Not the owner!

(and you think I'm hard work) - I said ownership model.

[marinello59]

Who made the appointments?




Part of the problem, looking on here to see who the fans would like.

Petrie made the appointments and he should have been long gone. He doesn't have that power now though, LD does and she seems to have found us a decent manager this time around.
My point about the fans backing several of those appointments was to point out that having fans in charge may have ended up with the same result.

[Andy74]

(and you think I'm hard work) - I said ownership model.

You did. Which means the owner. Who didn't make the managerial appointments.

[Velma Dinkley]

Who made the appointments?




Part of the problem, looking on here to see who the fans would like.

Yet you want the fans to be in charge? Lol

[blackpoolhibs]

When does the buck ever stop at the top at Easter Road?

[Kato]

You did. Which means the owner. Who didn't make the managerial appointments.

OK. You win. Great point you have their (look there's a typo you can get all pedantic about.)

I take it all back, Ton Farmer and Rod Petrie have never made any mistakes in their lives and we never, ever have to worry about what will happen to Hibs in the future as both of them will live forever and ever (like in a fairy tale) and will carry on taking to Hibs to further glory as they have done during the whole tenure.

[Andy74]

When does the buck ever stop at the top at Easter Road?

It's very rare for a buck to stop with the shareholder or shareholders to be fair.

The Chairman should be gone though, no doubt about that.

[Andy74]

OK. You win. Great point you have their (look there's a typo you can get all pedantic about.)

I take it all back, Ton Farmer and Rod Petrie have never made any mistakes in their lives and we never, ever have to worry about what will happen to Hibs in the future as both of them will live forever and ever (like in a fairy tale) and will carry on taking to Hibs to further glory as they have done during the whole tenure.

I think you know, maybe you don't, that I am making a specific point about the recent posts which all refer to us having to do something because ownership is going to change anyway one way or another. That's not true. What you are talking about is performance in the running of the company. That's a different conversation.

[Kato]

Yet you want the fans to be in charge? Lol

No where have I said that and nowhere will you ever see me say that.

Jumping in with little snipes and jokes doesn't add anything to this discussion but I'm not expecting those who are doing so to stop as it seems that is all they have to add.

Fan ownership doesn't mean the fans will be making all the decisions.

[Velma Dinkley]

No where have I said that and nowhere will you ever see me say that.

Jumping in with little snipes and jokes doesn't add anything to this discussion but I'm not expecting those who are doing so to stop as it seems that is all they have to add.

Fan ownership doesn't mean the fans will be making all the decisions.

Very good, although I can't say I've found anything you've written to be helpful. So we would have boardroom members making the decisions?

[Kato]

Very good, although I can't say I've found anything you've written to be helpful.

Weird it's reciprocal, eh.


So we would have boardroom members making the decisions?

We should have someone with some leadership skills making decisions. Which would be a novel attribute around the Hibs boardroom.

Unless you prefer someone looking on here for guidance and panicking every 11 months trying to cover bad decision after bad decision (see it's easy to put words in people's mouths) .

[Velma Dinkley]

Weird it's reciprocal, eh.



We should have someone with some leadership skills making decisions. Which would be a novel attribute around the Hibs boardroom.

Unless you prefer someone looking on here for guidance and panicking every 11 months trying to cover bad decision after bad decision (see it's easy to put words in people's mouths) .

Sorry. It's just been very difficult to understand what you're saying as every time you say something you then say you've not said it. For that reason, I'm out! Cheers.

[Beefster]

We should have someone with some leadership skills making decisions. Which would be a novel attribute around the Hibs boardroom.

You don't think Dempster has leadership skills?

[Kato]

Sorry.

Apology accepted.



It's just been very difficult to understand what you're saying as every time you say something you then say you've not said it. For that reason, I'm out! Cheers.

Bye-bye.

[The Falcon]

Who made the appointments?


What would we (or our appointed representatives) have done different? You are never going to please everybody but Butcher (and his entourage) were generally welcomed as good appointments.

[Kato]

What would we (or our appointed representatives) have done different? You are never going to please everybody but Butcher (and his entourage) were generally welcomed as good appointments.

It doesn't really matter what I would have done or not.

The perception exists that several of RP's appointments were made on the back of opinion on Hibs message boards. If he did make decisions on the back of that then it's merely indicative of his lack of skills. On the other trying to make excuses for his decisions by saying "it's what the fans wanted" is a weak argument on his behalf, as it highlights his lack of leadership all the same.

For what it's worth I never wanted Williamson, Mixu, Collins or Butcher. Fenlon, Mowbray and Calderwood arrived without any hype on here so don't really count towards that argument.

[ronaldo7]

She was asked this at the meetings.

She said that it was as a result of the approaches and the protests so she wanted to ask us what our plans were and what we wanted. At no point did she say that this was needed. In fact she said that the position was the same as it has always been. The owner is not looking to sell and wills only do so if an offer is in the best interests of the club.

What is happening now is a lot of talk on here about us having to actively do something. I'm asking why.

Did you go to the 3 meetings then mate?

[marinello59]

It doesn't really matter what I would have done or not.

The perception exists that several of RP's appointments were made on the back of opinion on Hibs message boards. If he did make decisions on the back of that then it's merely indicative of his lack of skills. On the other trying to make excuses for his decisions by saying "it's what the fans wanted" is a weak argument on his behalf, as it highlights his lack of leadership all the same.

For what it's worth I never wanted Williamson, Mixu, Collins or Butcher. Fenlon, Mowbray and Calderwood arrived without any hype on here so don't really count towards that argument.

I hope you don't think that was what I was saying.
There are no excuses for the appointments that Petrie made, he got many of them horribly wrong. My point was we can't blame the ownership model for that. I think change is needed and I do like the idea of a 49/51 ownership model but I am not so sure it is suitable for a club in the Scottish league.
FWIW I didn't want Williamson or Hughes and was luke warm to the appointments of Fenlon and Mowbray. I wanted Collins and Mixu who I think we got rid of too quickly. Calderwood arrived when I was on holiday and my first reaction was to thank Sauzee it wasn't Jimmy Calderwood. I thought Butcher was a great appointment. (Now typing his name is enough to make me angry.) We'd probably be playing non-league football now if I had the power to appoint managers. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

You did. Which means the owner. Who didn't make the managerial appointments.


Sorry to choose your post to reply to Andy, but I had to start somewhere.... :wink:


A very large number of Hibs Fans want Petrie out the Club (as evidenced by the protest and surveys). While STF still owns the Club, Petrie is untouchable.

That in itself is enough reason for at least some people to desire a change of ownership.



Disclaimer: I'm not in any way promoting BuyHibs or any other group, just adding a PoV to that particular discussion.

[bigwheel]

It doesn't really matter what I would have done or not.

The perception exists that several of RP's appointments were made on the back of opinion on Hibs message boards. If he did make decisions on the back of that then it's merely indicative of his lack of skills. On the other trying to make excuses for his decisions by saying "it's what the fans wanted" is a weak argument on his behalf, as it highlights his lack of leadership all the same.

For what it's worth I never wanted Williamson, Mixu, Collins or Butcher. Fenlon, Mowbray and Calderwood arrived without any hype on here so don't really count towards that argument.

In who's mind is this perception, certainly not mine or anyone I know. Oh, hang on I recall the pages of clamour for Mowbray and Fenlon... This feels like hindsight creating a new truth....

Petrie has made some stinking decisions , a number of them were fully supported on here at the time , others less so ....I don't believe many think that he comes on here for advice ...feel free to mount a good case for change - but surely this isn't one ?

[marinello59]

Sorry to choose your post to reply to Andy, but I had to start somewhere.... :wink:


A very large number of Hibs Fans want Petrie out the Club (as evidenced by the protest and surveys). While STF still owns the Club, Petrie is untouchable.

That in itself is enough reason for at least some people to desire a change of ownership.



Disclaimer: I'm not in any way promoting BuyHibs or any other group, just adding a PoV to that particular discussion.

Good point. Petrie's very presence at the club whether deserved or not creates mistrust. BuyHibs would probably not even have got this far if he had been removed as most of us seem to believe he should be.

[blackpoolhibs]

Good point. Petrie's very presence at the club whether deserved or not creates mistrust. BuyHibs would probably not even have got this far if he had been removed as most of us seem to believe he should be.

And its also a point many folk have pointed out over the years, Petrie is untouchable and the only way to get rid of him was to target the owner.

[Kato]

In who's mind is this perception, certainly not mine or anyone I know. Oh, hang on I recall the pages of clamour for Mowbray and Fenlon... This feels like hindsight creating a new truth....

Read the boards, there are posts on here for years which claim "aye but, it's what the fans wanted" whenever someone criticises RP. Not making a "new truth" or myth. The posts are around. The perception exits.

[Andy74]

And its also a point many folk have pointed out over the years, Petrie is untouchable and the only way to get rid of him was to target the owner.

I'd like Petrie gone but I'm not going to pay another 80% on top of my season ticket money to allow a group to buy Hibs just to get rid of a non exec Chairman. Certainly not this group judging by their plans and approach so far.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd like Petrie gone but I'm not going to pay another 80% on top of my season ticket money to allow a group to buy Hibs just to get rid of a non exec Chairman. Certainly not this group judging by their plans and approach so far.

You don't need to, its not compulsory.

[emerald green]

I'd like Petrie gone but I'm not going to pay another 80% on top of my season ticket money to allow a group to buy Hibs just to get rid of a non exec Chairman. Certainly not this group judging by their plans and approach so far.

Andy, I've not read through all 36 pages of this thread. I've only read some of it, off and on, but can I ask you how you see the ongoing future of Hibs if this fan buy out doesn't succeed (and that's how it's looking to me at the moment, but what do I know?).

I've genuinely got an open mind as to whether or not a fan buy out is the best way to safeguard and ensure the future wellbeing and security of our club, including the fantastic stadium and training centre. I do however have doubts about the proposal from BuyHibs.

If it's not the best way, what then for Hibs? Particularly when the day comes when Sir Tom Farmer is no longer with us?

[The Falcon]

It doesn't really matter what I would have done or not.

The perception exists that several of RP's appointments were made on the back of opinion on Hibs message boards. If he did make decisions on the back of that then it's merely indicative of his lack of skills. On the other trying to make excuses for his decisions by saying "it's what the fans wanted" is a weak argument on his behalf, as it highlights his lack of leadership all the same.

For what it's worth I never wanted Williamson, Mixu, Collins or Butcher. Fenlon, Mowbray and Calderwood arrived without any hype on here so don't really count towards that argument.

Is that everybody bar Yogi?

[Andy74]

Andy, I've not read through all 36 pages of this thread. I've only read some of it, off and on, but can I ask you how you see the ongoing future of Hibs if this fan buy out doesn't succeed (and that's how it's looking to me at the moment, but what do I know?).

I've genuinely got an open mind as to whether or not a fan buy out is the best way to safeguard and ensure the future wellbeing and security of our club, including the fantastic stadium and training centre. I do however have doubts about the proposal from BuyHibs.

If it's not the best way, what then for Hibs? Particularly when the day comes when Sir Tom Farmer is no longer with us?

Sir Tom could be here for the next 25 years.

I trust his intentions for Hibs so I'm pretty relaxed about our ownership now and in the future. Like all his assets there will be a plan if he was to go. I doubt he'd allow that to be detrimental to us.

That's the long and the short of it for me. I've no interest in agitating for a change on the basis that something bad might happen when Sir Tom goes. I don't believe for a second that would be allowed to happen.

[emerald green]

Sir Tom could be here for the next 25 years.

I trust his intentions for Hibs so I'm pretty relaxed about our ownership now and in the future. Like all his assets there will be a plan if he was to go. I doubt he'd allow that to be detrimental to us.

That's the long and the short of it for me. I've no interest in agitating for a change on the basis that something bad might happen when Sir Tom goes. I don't believe for a second that would be allowed to happen.

OK, thanks for that.

[Keith_M]

Sir Tom could be here for the next 25 years.


That would make him 99. Bit iffy to put your trust in someone living decades beyond the national average, surely?



I trust his intentions for Hibs so I'm pretty relaxed about our ownership now and in the future. Like all his assets there will be a plan if he was to go. I doubt he'd allow that to be detrimental to us.

So where's the harm in telling the Hibs support what it is? If he took over the Club for the sake of the Community, surely he can keep that community informed of his intentions.



That's the long and the short of it for me. I've no interest in agitating for a change on the basis that something bad might happen when Sir Tom goes. I don't believe for a second that would be allowed to happen.

I'm sorry, but that's called 'blind faith'. Not all of us have it.

[Ozyhibby]

Sir Tom could be here for the next 25 years.

I trust his intentions for Hibs so I'm pretty relaxed about our ownership now and in the future. Like all his assets there will be a plan if he was to go. I doubt he'd allow that to be detrimental to us.

That's the long and the short of it for me. I've no interest in agitating for a change on the basis that something bad might happen when Sir Tom goes. I don't believe for a second that would be allowed to happen.

Something bad already has happened. We're the laughing stock of Scottish football.

[Andy74]

That would make him 99. Bit iffy to put your trust in someone living decades beyond the national average, surely?



So where's the harm in telling the Hibs support what it is? If he took over the Club for the sake of the Community, surely he can keep that community informed of his intentions.



I'm sorry, but that's called 'blind faith'. Not all of us have it.

Why are you calling it blind faith? Its based on my knowledge of Sir Tom and his trustworthiness.

[blackpoolhibs]

Something bad already has happened. We're the laughing stock of Scottish football.

I actually think some folk have completely forgotten about this, and its the 2nd time its happened under his ownership. God forbid anything really bad happens eh?

[Kato]

Is that everybody bar Yogi?

Most certainly didn't want him either.

[Kato]

Like all his assets there will be a plan if he was to go.


What if there isn't?

[Andy74]

What if there isn't?

I don't care any more. You worry about for me.

[Kato]

I don't care any more. You worry about for me.

Cop. Out.

[Mibbes Aye]

You posted this, which might be a fair point


Jumping in with little snipes and jokes doesn't add anything to this discussion but I'm not expecting those who are doing so to stop as it seems that is all they have to add.

Unfortunately you posted it after you had posted this


OK. You win. Great point you have their (look there's a typo you can get all pedantic about.)

I take it all back, Ton Farmer and Rod Petrie have never made any mistakes in their lives and we never, ever have to worry about what will happen to Hibs in the future as both of them will live forever and ever (like in a fairy tale) and will carry on taking to Hibs to further glory as they have done during the whole tenure.

If you're going to criticise others for being snipey or sarcy it doesn't really hold up if you're going and doing the same, does it? Just makes you look a bit foolish, IMO.

[Eyrie]

What if there isn't?

He's a multi-millionaire with a family and diverse interests. People like that pay serious money to lawyers and accountants to make sure that their estate is passed on both in accordance with their wishes and with the smallest possible tax bill.

[Jack]

Andy, I've not read through all 36 pages of this thread. I've only read some of it, off and on, but can I ask you how you see the ongoing future of Hibs if this fan buy out doesn't succeed (and that's how it's looking to me at the moment, but what do I know?).

I've genuinely got an open mind as to whether or not a fan buy out is the best way to safeguard and ensure the future wellbeing and security of our club, including the fantastic stadium and training centre. I do however have doubts about the proposal from BuyHibs.

If it's not the best way, what then for Hibs? Particularly when the day comes when Sir Tom Farmer is no longer with us?

I think we should all chill and wait for the club propsal.

I believe, no, I'm certain all these pre-emptive strikes, however good they believe their intentions are, will fail if only for the reason the club have said they'd listen and react to what we've said.

How would the support react if the club, following their survey and consultations, said to BuyHibs, OK there you go it's all yours?

We all know what our club is like, its just not going to happen.

I also think folk should ditch the age stuff around STF being on his last legs. Sir Tom is [1/1] 73, Sir Pat is 7-0. At that time of life I suspect you couldn't split the difference: 70 is the new 21 ;-)

[Mikey]

Following on from the conversation on the PM board, here's another question for Buy Hibs.........

Does Buy Hibs still exist in the format released last week or has the militant arm split off to do their own thing?

Or does it still exist at all :dunno:

[emerald green]

I think we should all chill and wait for the club propsal.

I believe, no, I'm certain all these pre-emptive strikes, however good they believe their intentions are, will fail if only for the reason the club have said they'd listen and react to what we've said.

How would the support react if the club, following their survey and consultations, said to BuyHibs, OK there you go it's all yours?

We all know what our club is like, its just not going to happen.

I also think folk should ditch the age stuff around STF being on his last legs. Sir Tom is [1/1] 73, Sir Pat is 7-0. At that time of life I suspect you couldn't split the difference: 70 is the new 21 ;-)

I completely agree with the bit in bold. I can assure you I wasn't meaning anything disrespectful to STF at all in that regard. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

All I am trying to do is cut through some of the fog surrounding this proposal, and trying to formulate some sort of an understanding of where this all might be leading. What the pros and cons might be.

Like all Hibs supporters, I want what's in the best interests and future security and well being of our club. I just don't know what format that is right now and need clarity.

[RIP]

I think we should all chill and wait for the club propsal.

I believe, no, I'm certain all these pre-emptive strikes, however good they believe their intentions are, will fail if only for the reason the club have said they'd listen and react to what we've said.

How would the support react if the club, following their survey and consultations, said to BuyHibs, OK there you go it's all yours?

We all know what our club is like, its just not going to happen.

I also think folk should ditch the age stuff around STF being on his last legs. Sir Tom is [1/1] 73, Sir Pat is 7-0. At that time of life I suspect you couldn't split the difference: 70 is the new 21 ;-)

Good points Jack. As always.

However 'the club' by which I assume you mean the board are the same board that have repeatedly failed the club over the past seven years.

Blind faith in a business-led proposition from a failed board is no more credible than a naive supporter-led proposition.

[Kato]

You posted this, which might be a fair point



Unfortunately you posted it after you had posted this



If you're going to criticise others for being snipey or sarcy it doesn't really hold up if you're going and doing the same, does it? Just makes you look a bit foolish, IMO.


Does it? Tell you what. I don't care for your opinion on whatever it is I feel like saying, so I guess I can live with that. No offence to you personally. It's only a message board and contrariness abounds. I've noticed there's attempts to make anyone who suggests anything outwith a conservative outlook look foolish so I'm in good company.

What I think is foolish is attempting to tar buyhibs' name when the idea is very embryonic. That's what I've said all along on here. I'm not telling everyone that what they have to say is perfect but I'm also not looking to blow holes through what they are doing as it may develop into exactly what Hibs need, imho. Develop being the key word there.

Whether that is owning part of the club or controlling all of it that would also develop and become clearer over time. I would hope for the latter and that some deal could be struck with backers with a fans group as backup. Instead on here after a few short days there were posters firmly pushing a line that "this can't work". I don't understand that closed mindedness to be honest. If Pat Stanton is involved you have to at least respect they are in earnest and any discussions should at least be positive with positive suggestions.

Another foolish stance to me is to make out nothing needs done in regards the way Hibs are owned at the moment, when were at the back end of the worst few seasons the club has suffered ever in it's history (that's ever). Especially when there has been zero accountability shown by said owners. I'm told people have faith in STF's succession planning, I don't. It could well be he plans to leave the lot to RP as he's kept him in place despite the huge mistakes made in the past. I don't have that faith so am open-minded to alternatives and won't joining in with the complacency.

[The Green Goblin]

What I think is foolish is attempting to tar buyhibs' name when the idea is very embryonic. That's what I've said all along on here. I'm not telling everyone that what they have to say is perfect but I'm also not looking to blow holes through what they are doing as it may develop into exactly what Hibs need, imho. Develop being the key word there.

I think that`s many people`s problem with the whole thing, Kato. The proposal shouldn`t have been launched if there were still many "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross. Why didn`t they take their time and get the whole thing watertight before launching it? If the plan appears flawed or unfinished, people are going to have a hard time backing it.


Whether that is owning part of the club or controlling all of it that would also develop and become clearer over time. I would hope for the latter and that some deal could be struck with backers with a fans group as backup. Instead on here after a few short days there were posters firmly pushing a line that "this can't work". I don't understand that closed mindedness to be honest. If Pat Stanton is involved you have to at least respect they are in earnest and any discussions should at least be positive with positive suggestions.


Isn`t that a bit ironic, considering BuyHibs have refused the board`s invitation to meet to discuss a way forward?


Another foolish stance to me is to make out nothing needs done in regards the way Hibs are owned at the moment, when were at the back end of the worst few seasons the club has suffered ever in it's history (that's ever). Especially when there has been zero accountability shown by said owners. I'm told people have faith in STF's succession planning, I don't. It could well be he plans to leave the lot to RP as he's kept him in place despite the huge mistakes made in the past. I don't have that faith so am open-minded to alternatives and won't joining in with the complacency.



Personally, I will feel a lot better when whatever he has planned is out in the open, so that everyone at least knows where they stand.

[Beefster]

Good points Jack. As always.

However 'the club' by which I assume you mean the board are the same board that have repeatedly failed the club over the past seven years.

Blind faith in a business-led proposition from a failed board is no more credible than a naive supporter-led proposition.

Why are BuyHibs being described as 'naive' now? A group that includes lawyers, Sales Directors, leading lights from the World Economic Forum and Comms experts shouldn't have their mistakes described away as naivety. If I tried saying "Oops, sorry, I was naive" at my work when i ****ed up, I'd get laughed out of the building. If they are naive, they're not the right people to lead it.

[FranckSuzy]

Good points Jack. As always.

However 'the club' by which I assume you mean the board are the same board that have repeatedly failed the club over the past seven years.

Blind faith in a business-led proposition from a failed board is no more credible than a naive supporter-led proposition.

Not that long ago, you told us that they were good Hibby's (Hibbies?) and that they only had the club's best interests at heart :confused: Do I detect 'trouble at mill' in the Hibs/Gogs relationship?

[rcarter1]

I think that`s many people`s problem with the whole thing, Kato. The proposal shouldn`t have been launched if there were still many "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross. Why didn`t they take their time and get the whole thing watertight before launching it? If the plan appears flawed or unfinished, people are going to have a hard time backing it.

Isn`t that a bit ironic, considering BuyHibs have refused the board`s invitation to meet to discuss a way forward?

Ive been of the mind that BuyHibs needs time to develop its ideas with those who would support them, and that at the start of a fan ownership process was something to be welcomed. The bit in bold is however concerning me. I pledged straight away as I believed that a movement like this needed a boost to get moving. I will need to reconsider this if they don't seem able to work with the club and other groups.

[Jack]

Good points Jack. As always.

However 'the club' by which I assume you mean the board are the same board that have repeatedly failed the club over the past seven years.

Blind faith in a business-led proposition from a failed board is no more credible than a naive supporter-led proposition.

I think the club have almost continuously been failing since the early 1960s!

Our demise over the last 7 is just the culmination of Rod Petrie's 17 years in charge. It's poor leadership I'd say rather than a poor, ever changing, board.

You've said often enough since LD came in to give her a chance. You've said often enough that she had been brought in to steer the club to a new model of ownership. I would have thought you of all people would be interested to see what that was.

I'm not saying it will be the ideal, I haven't seen the 'vision', so I don't know.

We do know it's coming soon and having waited all this time another couple of weeks or so isn't going to damage us any more than we are, as a club, rather than the 1st team which already seems to have turned the corner.

I'm not dissing BuyHibs, or Forever Hibernian before them, just waiting to see what the club comes out with before making a decision on which I'd prefer.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I think the club have almost continuously been failing since the early 1960s!

Our demise over the last 7 is just the culmination of Rod Petrie's 17 years in charge. It's poor leadership I'd say rather than a poor, ever changing, board.

You've said often enough since LD came in to give her a chance. You've said often enough that she had been brought in to steer the club to a new model of ownership. I would have thought you of all people would be interested to see what that was.

I'm not saying it will be the ideal, I haven't seen the 'vision', so I don't know.

We do know it's coming soon and having waited all this time another couple of weeks or so isn't going to damage us any more than we are, as a club, rather than the 1st team which already seems to have turned the corner.

I'm not dissing BuyHibs, or Forever Hibernian before them, just waiting to see what the club comes out with before making a decision on which I'd prefer.

Fair balanced post......:aok:

[Eric]

Good points Jack. As always.

However 'the club' by which I assume you mean the board are the same board that have repeatedly failed the club over the past seven years.
Blind faith in a business-led proposition from a failed board is no more credible than a naive supporter-led proposition.

Out of the present 9 Hibs board members less than half were on the board on this date in 2007. Hardly the "same board":wink:

And I do agree with Jack that we should wait to hear the board's plans for the future!

[ancient hibee]

Does it? Tell you what. I don't care for your opinion on whatever it is I feel like saying, so I guess I can live with that. No offence to you personally. It's only a message board and contrariness abounds. I've noticed there's attempts to make anyone who suggests anything outwith a conservative outlook look foolish so I'm in good company.

What I think is foolish is attempting to tar buyhibs' name when the idea is very embryonic. That's what I've said all along on here. I'm not telling everyone that what they have to say is perfect but I'm also not looking to blow holes through what they are doing as it may develop into exactly what Hibs need, imho. Develop being the key word there.

Whether that is owning part of the club or controlling all of it that would also develop and become clearer over time. I would hope for the latter and that some deal could be struck with backers with a fans group as backup. Instead on here after a few short days there were posters firmly pushing a line that "this can't work". I don't understand that closed mindedness to be honest. If Pat Stanton is involved you have to at least respect they are in earnest and any discussions should at least be positive with positive suggestions.

Another foolish stance to me is to make out nothing needs done in regards the way Hibs are owned at the moment, when were at the back end of the worst few seasons the club has suffered ever in it's history (that's ever). Especially when there has been zero accountability shown by said owners. I'm told people have faith in STF's succession planning, I don't. It could well be he plans to leave the lot to RP as he's kept him in place despite the huge mistakes made in the past. I don't have that faith so am open-minded to alternatives and won't joining in with the complacency.

Should people with only embryonic ideas really be asking others to pledge money?

[Kato]

Should people with only embryonic ideas really be asking others to pledge money?

Why not? Take pledges before any cash is taken/provided. Those that have pledged can then discuss with those organising the thing to take the embryonic ideas and grow or change them. Pledges can be revoked at any time. I don't think what they are putting forward is set in stone. The flanges' over the road didn't have all their plans in place with FoH and those who set it up aren't in charge now it's in place. Things change over time. It potentially helps Hibs whatever scale it achieves so I think it's worth listening to.

[Kato]

I think that`s many people`s problem with the whole thing, Kato. The proposal shouldn`t have been launched if there were still many "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross. Why didn`t they take their time and get the whole thing watertight before launching it? If the plan appears flawed or unfinished, people are going to have a hard time backing it.

See post above.




Isn`t that a bit ironic, considering BuyHibs have refused the board`s invitation to meet to discuss a way forward?

Well if your being harsh you could say that's a monkey and organ-grinder situation.




Personally, I will feel a lot better when whatever he has planned is out in the open, so that everyone at least knows where they stand.

There is uncertainty there and I don't see a pressing need for secrecy.

[ancient hibee]

It also potentially harms Hibs.Nobody has any idea.

[marinello59]

Why not? Take pledges before any cash is taken/provided. Those that have pledged can then discuss with those organising the thing to take the embryonic ideas and grow or change them. Pledges can be revoked at any time. I don't think what they are putting forward is set in stone. The flanges' over the road didn't have all their plans in place with FoH and those who set it up aren't in charge now it's in place. Things change over time. It potentially helps Hibs whatever scale it achieves so I think it's worth listening to.

You do know what a pledge is? It's a PROMISE to part with your hard earned cash. It's been a bit dishonest of BH to downplay that after a couple of days to merely expressing support. If that was true why not just ask us to press like on Facebook? As it stands they have no pledges at all now because they have cancelled the Direct Debits of those who have already pledged and will have to ask them to 'pledge' again.

[Mibbes Aye]

Does it? Tell you what. I don't care for your opinion on whatever it is I feel like saying, so I guess I can live with that. No offence to you personally. It's only a message board and contrariness abounds. I've noticed there's attempts to make anyone who suggests anything outwith a conservative outlook look foolish so I'm in good company.



Sounds like you've got the idea of a forum sussed then :greengrin

Re your last sentence, you're not in any company. I called you out for what looked like hypocrisy. It would have been simpler to man up and own it. It's nothing to do with being radical or conservative. Trying to cover your tracks by pretending it is is a bit weak TBH.

[Kato]

Sounds like you've got the idea of a forum sussed then :greengrin

Oh, yes. You better believe it.


Re your last sentence, you're not in any company. I called you out for what looked like hypocrisy.

As I said, whoop de doo. You must be chuffed.

[Kato]

You do know what a pledge is? It's a PROMISE to part with your hard earned cash. It's been a bit dishonest of BH to downplay that after a couple of days to merely expressing support. If that was true why not just ask us to press like on Facebook? As it stands they have no pledges at all now because they have cancelled the Direct Debits of those who have already pledged and will have to ask them to 'pledge' again.

Thanks for the explanation and the news bulletin.

[Mikey]

Thanks for the explanation and the news bulletin.

Any chance you can up the level of debate, because quite frankly you're adding nothing.

[Kato]

Any chance you can up the level of debate, because quite frankly you're adding nothing.

OK. All I'm suggesting is that buyhibs be given time to develop their ideas. Some people can't wait to throw the whole thing out without being given that chance.

If it's adding nothing to the debate by asking for patience then all I can say those that are quick to be against it are adding even less.

[jdships]

OK. All I'm suggesting is that buyhibs be given time to develop their ideas. Some people can't wait to throw the whole thing out without being given that chance.

If it's adding nothing to the debate by asking for patience then all I can say those that are quick to be against it are adding even less.


While not wishing to get involved in a personal " debate" :greengrin what is bothering a lot of my mates and myself is buyhibs "spinning "
They have been very quick off their mark to give us their " vision" for the future but absolutely nothing with any substance has been forthcoming
OK you say they should be given time : however it would have been in their best interests surely to prepare a full and detailed statement of intent containing sustainable proposals.
I for one am not impressed with any of the so called " saviours of HFC " at this point
:confused::rolleyes:

[Andy74]

Does anyone with BuyHibs want to clarify if they are still going? All gone very quiet since knocking back the Board invite.

You want to run a club? Show you can run a campaign to begin with!

[haagsehibby]

As I read this thread, I keep thinking of Donald Rumsfeld's famous quote.

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." :cb

[Kato]

OK you say they should be given time : however it would have been in their best interests surely to prepare a full and detailed statement of intent containing sustainable proposals.


Agreed.

[jacomo]

As I read this thread, I keep thinking of Donald Rumsfeld's famous quote.

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." :cb

Happens to be true, and sadly now will be forever identified with this war monger.

[jacomo]

Does anyone with BuyHibs want to clarify if they are still going? All gone very quiet since knocking back the Board invite.

You want to run a club? Show you can run a campaign to begin with!

This is very true. The onus is on BuyHibs to show how it would work. They've been battling on the comms front even before they launched.

I'm sure they've put a lot of work in and are finding things quite demanding in terms of time etc - I think they are all fdoind this in their spare time - but they are going to have to get a grip of the message if they are going to win people over.

[ancient hibee]

It just seems that the main thrust of BuyHibs is that they are not the "present lot"and they will have to do a lot better that that.It's not a question of giving them a chance because it could be said that anyone could come up with a plan to purchase the club but it's what happens then that concerns me and I've seen nothing that tells me.

[Keith_M]

Why are you calling it blind faith? Its based on my knowledge of Sir Tom and his trustworthiness.


You are happy to sit back and believe that STF has a plan for succession at the Club despite him making no public statement to that effect. I'd call that Blind Faith, yes.

If you're happy with that, it's your choice. Other people are not.

You have now replied to the last two of my posts yet deftly avoided answering any points I made. I have to sadly conclude that there is no point attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this subject, as your open to no one's PoV but your own.

[Andy74]

You are happy to sit back and believe that STF has a plan for succession at the Club despite him making no public statement to that effect. I'd call that Blind Faith, yes.

If you're happy with that, it's your choice. Other people are not.

You have now replied to the last two of my posts yet deftly avoided answering any points I made. I have to sadly conclude that there is no point attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this subject, as your open to no one's PoV but your own.

If you don't understand my points then fair enough.

Don't make out that I'm going on blind faith and being unreasonable though.

Have any statements been made about any other businesses in case the owner dies that you are aware of?

Anyway, BuyHibs look to have disappeared already so we will see what the Club's plans are in due course.

[GreenOnions]

You are happy to sit back and believe that STF has a plan for succession at the Club despite him making no public statement to that effect. I'd call that Blind Faith, yes.

If you're happy with that, it's your choice. Other people are not.

You have now replied to the last two of my posts yet deftly avoided answering any points I made. I have to sadly conclude that there is no point attempting to have a reasonable discussion about this subject, as your open to no one's PoV but your own.

I don't know what Andy74's reply would be but I will quote my own earlier post from page 3 of this thread as one which expresses similar sentiments to those of quite a few other posters. It accepts your point about the failures of the past six or seven years but questions assumptions about the cause(s).


Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club.

There will always be question marks about particular deals that fell through or whatever but the references by potential buyers to the "investment" needed (and thus implied to have been insufficient before now) fail to acknowledge the facts I think.

Hibs' spending on wages declined from a high level (under McLeish) through the Bobby Williamson tenure and reached quite a low level in the early part of Tony Mowbray's period in charge. This was mainly due to the number of youth players we relied upon at that point.

Since then - our investment in players has been comparable to any of our competitors with the exception of Celtic and teams that were cheating and subsequently went out of business as a result.

Which "facts" indicate a "lack of investment" in the club? I'm not convinced there are any.

The problems have been caused largely by poor decisions rather than by lack of investment. The poor decisions that have really undermined us are those regarding manager recruitment and, in particular, it is the recurrent nature of this problem that has seen our decline gather speed.

Our ownership model has given us a great deal of financial security and has provided the platform from which the club could prosper. Any new model is unlikely to have the financial clout of Tom Farmer and so will imply more expensive debt and a less secure future should we run into problems. I also fail to see how any new ownership model could produce additional investment without adding to debt even if "investment" were actually the cause of our problems.

The question I would ask is: if it's decision-making that has been our main problem rather than investment - how can we be sure that this will be corrected by a new model of ownership? Surely anyone can make poor decisions - even in a board elected under a new fan ownership model. If we could change the decision-maker without losing our financial stability and strength would that not be the best of both worlds?

I wonder whether, if fans could be convinced 100% that Leeann Dempster was fully in charge of day-to-day decision-making etc, they would then be happy to continue with the current ownership model?

[blackpoolhibs]

If i'm being honest, i'm not worried about the way STF might run the club in 3-4-5 years time, i'm worried about how he's managed to run it into the Championship and i'm worried what the future holds for us now?

[Andy74]

If i'm being honest, i'm not worried about the way STF might run the club in 3-4-5 years time, i'm worried about how he's managed to run it into the Championship and i'm worried what the future holds for us now?

He doesn't run it though. He owns it. When companies fail generally speaking to shareholders change or Boards and management?

[blackpoolhibs]

He doesn't run it though. He owns it. When companies fail generally speaking to shareholders change or Boards and management?

Aye, but when it failed for so long it needed changed well before LD came in. He's still the man who owns us, and eventually if the team fails enough times his position has to be looked at, as it rightly is now.

[IWasThere2016]

Aye, but when it failed for so long it needed changed well before LD came in. He's still the man who owns us, and eventually if the team fails enough times his position has to be looked at, as it rightly is now.

Totally agree. I fail to see why anyone can have continued faith in STF/RP and their 'leadership'.. 7+ years of decline, and no sign of a sustained reverse. Time for change - overdue change.

[marinello59]

Totally agree. I fail to see why anyone can have continued faith in STF/RP and their 'leadership'.. 7+ years of decline, and no sign of a sustained reverse. Time for change - overdue change.

Have you pledged the maximum then?

[Andy74]

Totally agree. I fail to see why anyone can have continued faith in STF/RP and their 'leadership'.. 7+ years of decline, and no sign of a sustained reverse. Time for change - overdue change.

The leadership has changed though hasn't it?

[Leith Green]

He doesn't run it though. He owns it. When companies fail generally speaking to shareholders change or Boards and management?

Thats just a daft comparison , if you are going to compare a football club to a normal business, then you would accept that if we were not a football club we would have no customers left .. We would basically be winded up long ago..

[Andy74]

Thats just a daft comparison , if you are going to compare a football club to a normal business, then you would accept that if we were not a football club we would have no customers left .. We would basically be winded up long ago..

Dont follow you.

[grunt]

Whilst I do think it's a good idea to think about the most suitable and potentially most stable ownership model for the future I really think there is a problem with the logic in suggesting that our decline has been due to the ownership of the club....

This very eloquently summarises my views on the situation. Thanks for reposting it.

[Peevemor]

The leadership has changed though hasn't it?

And up to now, the report card is pretty positive. Some however prefer change for change's sake, regardless of how unprofessionally the takeover bid is presented.

[blackpoolhibs]

And up to now, the report card is pretty positive. Some however prefer change for change's sake, regardless of how unprofessionally the takeover bid is presented.

I hope you dont mean me with that, because i personally have seen nothing yet to convince me this lot are the right people to take Hibs over?

[Peevemor]

I hope you dont mean me with that, because i personally have seen nothing yet to convince me this lot are the right people to take Hibs over?

It's easy enough to spot those I'm meaning.

[Leith Green]

Dont follow you.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[blackpoolhibs]

It's easy enough to spot those I'm meaning.

I dont think it is, there's plenty who want a new owner but not many who are backing this lot. And if you are willing to see the slightest good in this buyhibs lot, they are being jumped on, when most of them are just willing to give them more time to see how this all pans out.

[Peevemor]

I dont think it is, there's plenty who want a new owner but not many who are backing this lot. And if you are willing to see the slightest good in this buyhibs lot, they are being jumped on, when most of them are just willing to give them more time to see how this all pans out.

I've no doubt that they're well intentioned and, like many others, I'll make up my mind if they eventually manage to produce something solid. Unfortunately what they've come up with to date is a joke. They've no idea how much money is required, they're making demands of STF that they have no right to make, they have backers lined up but their identity is secret, they've knocked back a meeting with the board and they expect people to pledge money on this basis?

IMO they went public far too early. Would the extra couple of months required to put together a concrete proposition, in private consultation with STF/the club make much difference in the long run?

[blackpoolhibs]

I've no doubt that they're well intentioned and, like many others, I'll make up my mind if they eventually manage to produce something solid. Unfortunately what they've come up with to date is a joke. They've no idea how much money is required, they're making demands of STF that they have no right to make, they have backers lined up but their identity is secret, they've knocked back a meeting with the board and they expect people to pledge money on this basis?

IMO they went public far too early. Would the extra couple of months required to put together a concrete proposition, in private consultation with STF/the club make much difference in the long run?

Maybe thats why some folk are waiting before they make their minds up?

[Peevemor]

Maybe thats why some folk are waiting before they make their minds up?

I hope so. But there are people on both sides who have already decided.

[blackpoolhibs]

I hope so. But there are people on both sides who have already decided.

Really, as far as i can see its only folk who are against it that have made their minds up already, those who might be for it and would like a change of owner are waiting for more information, but are keeping their minds open either way for now.

[Kato]

He doesn't run it though. He owns it. When companies fail generally speaking to shareholders change or Boards and management?

He runs it in that he delegates power to someone else, and will be fully aware of the financial situation.

As Blackpool (I think) asked elsewhere, where does the buck stop?

[Peevemor]

Really, as far as i can see its only folk who are against it that have made their minds up already, those who might be for it and would like a change of owner are waiting for more information, but are keeping their minds open either way for now.

What about those who have pledged money?

[IWasThere2016]

Have you pledged the maximum then?

Where did I say I backed BH? :wink: But, yes I have pledged.


The leadership has changed though hasn't it?

No. RP pulls the strings. As always.

[stantonhibby]

What about those who have pledged money?

And urging others to do so.

[blackpoolhibs]

What about those who have pledged money?

They pledged knowing nothing was going to be taken. They also know they can pull out at any time, as they surely will if they are swayed they other way.

[Peevemor]

They pledged knowing nothing was going to be taken. They also know they can pull out at any time, as they surely will if they are swayed they other way.

That's not my understanding of a pledge. Surely a pledge isn't conditional?

[blackpoolhibs]

That's not my understanding of a pledge. Surely a pledge isn't conditional?

Of course you can pull out when you like, which is one of the main reasons i don't think this particular scheme works.

[blackpoolhibs]

You don't need to pull out. BuyHibs cancelled all the Direct Debits so they don't have any pledges now.

Yes i knew that matey, i'm just not convinced a scheme based on pledges works.

[jacomo]

And up to now, the report card is pretty positive. Some however prefer change for change's sake, regardless of how unprofessionally the takeover bid is presented.

A question if I may (and to Andy74 too if he wants to answer it)... Do you understand the anger directed at RP and STF for the unprofessional way the club was run over the past several seasons? Do you sympathise at all with fellow fans who are so fed up they have decided to give up until there is a change of ownership?

Because you come across as exasperated that people won't jump aboard the happy ship Hibs again now that we have LD in charge.

[Peevemor]

A question if I may (and to Andy74 too if he wants to answer it)... Do you understand the anger directed at RP and STF for the unprofessional way the club was run over the past several seasons? Do you sympathise at all with fellow fans who are so fed up they have decided to give up until there is a change of ownership?

Because you come across as exasperated that people won't jump aboard the happy ship Hibs again now that we have LD in charge.

Of course I can understand folk's anger, but what exasperates me is that anyone believes that the BuyHibs proposal, in it's current form, is an improvement on the status quo. What does it offer that will improve things?

[Jack]

In my opinion the only mistake STF made was keeping Rod on beyond his effectiveness. Rods an accountant, Anchovy.

[Peevemor]

In my opinion the only mistake STF made was keeping Rod on beyond his effectiveness. Rods an accountant, Anchovy.

Small fish in a big pond? :dunno:

[Peevemor]

In my opinion the only mistake STF made was keeping Rod on beyond his effectiveness. Rods an accountant, Anchovy.

Fish tourettes! :faf:

[Jack]

Monty Python.

Anchovy was the Chartered Accountant in the lion tamer sketch :-)

[Peevemor]

Monty Python.

Anchovy was the Chartered Accountant in the lion tamer sketch :-)

Ah. Sorry don't remember that one.

[Jack]

Ah. Sorry don't remember that one.

Swap one of two things about lion tamer /football club and you can almost imagine STF and RP having a blether - Anchovy even has the early signs of a Rod marque mowser!!!

Monty Python - Lion Tamer: http://youtu.be/XMOmB1q8W4Y

[jacomo]

Of course I can understand folk's anger, but what exasperates me is that anyone believes that the BuyHibs proposal, in it's current form, is an improvement on the status quo. What does it offer that will improve things?

I was going to say: no Rod Petrie, but I'm not convinced it even offers that.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Where did I say I backed BH? :wink: But, yes I have pledged.



No. RP pulls the strings. As always.

How do you know that - were you at the last board meeting, or the Alan Stubbs interview etc ?

You only post RP / STF out. but you never come up with alternatives.

As Chairman his role is to review the recommendations of the CEO and other board members, and of course he is STF link to the club.

Be great to see your options moving forward without STF / RP, but I'm not holding my breath.

[CropleyWasGod]

How do you know that - were you at the last board meeting, or the Alan Stubbs interview etc ?

You only post RP / STF out. but you never come up with alternatives.

As Chairman his role is to review the recommendations of the CEO and other board members, and of course he is STF link to the club.

Be great to see your options moving forward without STF / RP, but I'm not holding my breath.

Not sure about that.

He's non-executive Chair. Whilst every company has its own rules, that to me says that he:-

1. chairs meetings.

2. has a vote.

3. possibly, has a casting vote.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Not sure about that.

He's non-executive Chair. Whilst every company has its own rules, that to me says that he:-

1. chairs meetings.

2. has a vote.

3. possibly, has a casting vote.

CWG - that as my view of his role, sorry not a fianance guru re exact role names :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

CWG - that as my view of his role, sorry not a fianance guru re exact role names :greengrin

I know.:greengrin

I just don't think that, as a non-exec, it will be his role to review the recommendations of the CEO and Board. That would be a collective, Board, function.

[jacomo]

I want to say again that I have no insider knowledge, but these are my observations after following this thread over the past week.

I think the problem with BuyHibs is that it's not a unified proposition - instead, it's been created out of two separate ideas that have come together under the same banner.

Paul Kane was all about the Petrie Out campaign, which was supported by Pat Stanton. They became convinced that he had to go - after all the disappointments of recent years, Butcher was Petrie's last throw of the dice and it proved to be a very expensive mistake.

Petrie refused to resign, so they went to to STF but he refused to remove him. Kane obviously asked whether STF would effectively hand over the club to the fans for free but was sent away to think again. Stale mate.

Meanwhile, SDS come on the scene, with their evangelical belief in fan ownership, and Kane is persuaded to throw his lot in with them. I think he and Stanton see it almost as a means to an end, as both were very quiet at the St Pats press conference and not really involved in the detail.

The problem is that BuyHibs does NOT necessarily promise the removal of Petrie - their plan seems to be that STF would remain the largest shareholder, in which case the make up of the Board would be a process of negotiation.

[Bad Martini]

Frustration/anger/whatever (which I share in abundance, particularly with Petrie who I would dearly love gone from my football club) does not change the facts. Whether folk like it or not, the facts (actual, not .net or wished for facts) are:

1) STF does not HAVE to "gift" the club to anyone (and won't, unless he wants to)...
2) STF does not HAVE to "write off" all this debt (which I'm delighted someone has finally recognised exists as last week, folk were only looking to buy the assets but cleverly offload the debt to the daft businessman who owns the club...:rolleyes:)
3) STF does not HAVE to meet anyone who has no solid plans to discuss...

On the third point, I suspect he expected BuyHibs to go through the formal process i.e. discussing their proposal with the board/directors before actually having any need to speak to the owner.

Incidentally, the "owner" is just that. He owns the business. He has put those in place he wants to RUN the business...whether we like or dislike them, thats how it works. I would suggest they should have met the board, the board would have assessed their merits and possibly, then, Farmer might have met them. :agree:

They done themselves no favours by demanding the owners' time without any real plan to discuss, any money to buy with and any real intention of discussing anything with anyone delegated power by STF.

And now am off to buy a fitba club, without any money or plan from which to get it. I'll be speaking to the owners today, cause I've decided so and I expect them to hand me the stadium, the training ground and the bank balance. They can ram their £millions of debt cause I dinnae want that. So, Mr Werner and Mr Henry, if you just sign up here, I'll take over the nice office at Melwood and Anfield will be mine :aok::na na::greengrin:cb

Radger things have been said in anger :greengrin

OWNEROFAFITBACLUB :greengrin

[grunt]

... both were very quiet at the St Pats press conference and not really involved in the detail.
There was detail? :wink:

[jacomo]

There was detail? :wink:

Well, you know...

[BuyHibs]

Evening All,

BuyHibs would like to invite .net users to a face to face question & answering session at the Hibernian Supporters Association at Sunnyside on the 3rd December at 7.30PM. This will also include some fans that do not use forums or social media.

We believe that fan interaction is crucial and we would now like the opportunity to meet you face to face to answer your questions.

If you would be interested in this please can you stick your name below so i can compile a list.

Thanks and hope to meet you all shortly.

BuyHibs Team.


List of attendees

[Mikey]

Remember that any questions you have may already have been covered here.....

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?294600-BuyHibs-Q-amp-A-Answers

[FranckSuzy]

Which members of the 'BuyHibs' team will be there, please?

[BuyHibs]

Which members of the 'BuyHibs' team will be there, please?


Hi Suzy,

Our intention is to have everyone from the BuyHibs team available for this session :aok:

[FranckSuzy]

Hi Suzy,

Our intention is to have everyone from the BuyHibs team available for this session :aok:

Thank you :aok:

[jacomo]

Following on from the conversation on the PM board, here's another question for Buy Hibs.........

Does Buy Hibs still exist in the format released last week or has the militant arm split off to do their own thing?


Or does it still exist at all :dunno:

Is there an update this week?

[Mikey]

Is there an update this week?

They're doing some Q&A's (in addition to these Q&A's!!) next week so if there was something going they've sorted it out among themselves.

[offshorehibby]

Hopefully i'll be at one or both nights

[southsider]

I think it's a distinct possibility, probable even, but they are going to have to show him a damn sight more than they have to date. And whether they like it or not they are going to have to deal with Rod, and if they wish to be taken seriously they need to grow a set and get on with it.

I think every member of the BuyHibs board should put up a bond of say £20,000 to show STF their good intention.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think every member of the BuyHibs board should put up a bond of say £20,000 to show STF their good intention.
Why?

They're merely facilitators, surely?

[Weststandwanab]

They are acting as agents for people with real money.

[Andy74]

They are acting as agents for people with real money.

Are they? Who are these people?

[Bostonhibby]

They are acting as agents for people with real money.

Like this you mean?

[jdships]

They are acting as agents for people with real money.

Now !
There might just be a grain of truth in that statement if the tittle tattle around the " Edinburgh Financial Gregg's" is anything to go by !!
From what has been put about Jan/Feb could see some more detailed info :wink:

This is as I say from a " Gregg's" branch :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Why?

They're merely facilitators, surely?
And at what price facilitation ? What if any personal gain is there for those involved in BuyHibs ?

[The Green Goblin]

I think I am right in saying that you have since refused that invitation. (If that is incorrect, I will remove this post).

Can you explain why you did this? It doesn't seem like a helpful or progressive decision to me. (Apologies if I have missed an answer to this in your posts above). Thanks. GG

Bump. (4th time) I'm not meaning to "bump" this aggressively. But I am still looking for an answer. Cheers.

[marinello59]

Bump. (4th time) I'm not meaning to "bump" this aggressively. But I am still looking for an answer. Cheers.

That's transparency for you. Easy to say they will be transparent but easier not to actually put it in to practice.

[BuyHibs]

Bump. (4th time) I'm not meaning to "bump" this aggressively. But I am still looking for an answer. Cheers.

Hi, please see our response to your question.

Also please accept our apology for not getting back to you sooner.

On launching on 11 November, BuyHibs were open and clear that it wished to meet with the owners of the club to discuss a number of issues. We feel only the current owners can engage in discussions about the future of our club. BuyHibs unanimously agreed to stick to our objective and continue dialogue to arrange this meeting.

[BuyHibs]

We have a face to face session for Hibs.net on December 3rd where and it is our intention to have all that are apart of BuyHibs to be present.

Please see the sticky thread at the top end of the forum page.

Thanks BuyHibs Team.