Ched Evans

[ackeygraham]

A lot being said about this guys and his possible return to football.

If he was coming to Hibs - what would your thoughts be on this?

Right now if he was going to bang in the goals taking into account our poor record up front i'd take him.

[Hibby70]

I'd rather we signed Judy Finnigan.

[_hucks_]

Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. Being a footballer is not a normal career; a club is part of a community and players should try and be an active part of that and I would not want to see him as part of the wider Hibernian community. Whilst he's served his time, I believe his career as a professional footballer should be over, in favour of something less high profile.

[Time For Heroes]

Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. Being a footballer is not a normal career; a club is part of a community and players should try and be an active part of that and I would not want to see him as part of the wider Hibernian community. Whilst he's served his time, I believe his career as a professional footballer should be over, in favour of something less high profile.
100% This.

[The Gorf]

Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. Being a footballer is not a normal career; a club is part of a community and players should try and be an active part of that and I would not want to see him as part of the wider Hibernian community. Whilst he's served his time, I believe his career as a professional footballer should be over, in favour of something less high profile.
Spot on fella

[Keith_M]

Now that I've finally found out the details of this guy and what he did......


No way would I want him anywhere near Hibs.

[Oscar T Grouch]

The guy is a rapist, he may have served his time, but he is and always will be a rapist, he should be no where near football, and certainly no where near Hibs.

[hibs0666]

More suited to the Saville's.

[Hibby D]

He's a convicted rapist and a registered sex offender, who pre-booked a hotel room for him and his mate. His mate texts him to say he's got a "bird" and lo and behold Evans appears at the hotel too. (I've read the court transcript :agree:)

I'm surprised the question is even being asked and couldn't care if he came with a guaranteed 50 goals per season :no way:

[Beefster]

Evans is a ****bag who hasn't even had the decency to acknowledge what he did.

If Hibs signed him (or someone similar), I'd post my ST back the same day.

[Sammy7nil]

Some strong comments on here I have no strong opinion either way but surely ex-offenders are still part of the community? And if they are they deserve an opportunity to be rehabilitated and work their way back in to the community? If that is not the case perhaps we should bulid LARGE facilities and lock away all offenders forever? Or is it okay for offenders to be rehabilitated in some way so long as it is far away and they are isolated from the community?

As I say I dont have the answer and no strong opinion on this case as I know none of the facts but if it is not about rehabilitation and 2nd chances then what do ex-offenders do when they are released hide?

[Baader]

Think I'd pass on that one thank you.

[silverhibee]

Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. Being a footballer is not a normal career; a club is part of a community and players should try and be an active part of that and I would not want to see him as part of the wider Hibernian community. Whilst he's served his time, I believe his career as a professional footballer should be over, in favour of something less high profile.

Totally agree with you, but as someone said at the World Cup, there are no morals in football, just read this http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drink-drive-killer-luke-mccormick-made-3875699and I'm pretty sure the rapist will be training with a club pretty soon.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Some strong comments on here I have no strong opinion either way but surely ex-offenders are still part of the community? And if they are they deserve an opportunity to be rehabilitated and work their way back in to the community? If that is not the case perhaps we should bulid LARGE facilities and lock away all offenders forever? Or is it okay for offenders to be rehabilitated in some way so long as it is far away and they are isolated from the community?

As I say I dont have the answer and no strong opinion on this case as I know none of the facts but if it is not about rehabilitation and 2nd chances then what do ex-offenders do when they are released hide?

Footballers, wether we like it or not are idolised and held up in modern society as roll models. This man has served his sentence, but what message does that send out to kids that a rapist can serve a few years and come back to a career where he earns a shed load and is put back in the roll model status? He's served his time, he now has to look for another career with the restrictions set upon him (sex offenders register). He should never play professional football again, IMHO

[wookie70]

He has served his prison time but is still on licence. To me he is entitled to try to get back into the career he was previously in. However, if I was a Bank, Office or Shop Manager etc and a former employee who left due to being imprisoned for a sexual offence came back and asked for their job I would not hire them. I would tell them that we have other people who have completed your duties in your absence that are neither an embarrassment to to the company or are any risk due to their possible future conduct. I also wouldn't want the huge negative publicity and the hate mail and other unwanted attention.

Football is morally corrupt at the best of times, particularly in England, so I imagine he will get somewhere to play.

[Smartie]

The only way I'd accept him at ER would be if he was wearing a maroon jersey getting his name chanted by 4000 like-minded weirdos from the away end.

I'd like to think we still have a bit of dignity left.

[erin go bragh]

No thanks . Hibs don't employ sex offenders .


Ggtth

[ekhibee]

I would return my ST if we signed him. The fact that he's been endorsed by Finnegan just makes me hate the guy even more, and I've not forgotten the derogatory comments Madeley was making about Scottish people before the referendum either.

[Pretty Boy]

I accept ex offenders have the right to earn a living, even ones guilty of as despicable a crimes as Evans. Would I want him at ER? Absolutely not.

Football is a results based industry though and if a team feels he will score goals then he will get a club.

[Keith_M]

I accept ex offenders have the right to earn a living, even ones guilty of as despicable a crimes as Evans. Would I want him at ER? Absolutely not.



:agree:

He can rehabiliate himself elsewhere, somewhere in a low profile job. I'm sure he's not short of money so he's not going to starve any time soon.

I don't want my Club associated with this kind of 'person'.

[steviehibsleith]

As a club we need every possible supporter we can get and for the first time my 11yo niece got a season ticket with her dad. She is young but my point would be would we alienate our female supporters if a player with this conviction would sign for us. Having read todays Daily newspaper I see there is a Sheffield United online poll with 140000 signatures stating there disapproval of a return for him.

[Peevemor]

Players represent the club, the sponsors and, to varying levels, the community. A convicted rapist wouldn't be appropriate IMHO.

[silverhibee]

Players represent the club, the sponsors and, to varying levels, the community. A convicted rapist wouldn't be appropriate IMHO.

It seems quite acceptable down in England though, there has been a number of high profile players who have been sent to prison for a long time where they have killed people and other serious crimes and yet walked straight back in to football as soon as they have been released from prison, Evans will be no different, someone will take a chance on him.

Can only think of one Scottish player who has been sent to prison and went on to have a successful career and his crime should have been dealt with by the SFA, not the courts, so no where near as bad as some of the players down South have behaved.

[Beefster]

Some strong comments on here I have no strong opinion either way but surely ex-offenders are still part of the community? And if they are they deserve an opportunity to be rehabilitated and work their way back in to the community? If that is not the case perhaps we should bulid LARGE facilities and lock away all offenders forever? Or is it okay for offenders to be rehabilitated in some way so long as it is far away and they are isolated from the community?

As I say I dont have the answer and no strong opinion on this case as I know none of the facts but if it is not about rehabilitation and 2nd chances then what do ex-offenders do when they are released hide?

How can someone be rehabilitated when they don't accept that they did anything wrong?

[Deansy]

His 'credentials' make him a more suitable candidate for our neighbours across town - tailor-made for his type.

[Peevemor]

It seems quite acceptable down in England though, there has been a number of high profile players who have been sent to prison for a long time where they have killed people and other serious crimes and yet walked straight back in to football as soon as they have been released from prison, Evans will be no different, someone will take a chance on him.

Can only think of one Scottish player who has been sent to prison and went on to have a successful career and his crime should have been dealt with by the SFA, not the courts, so no where near as bad as some of the players down South have behaved.

Duncan Ferguson was already on a year's probation when he nutted John McStay in front of 40k+ spectators, a few dozen on duty policemen and the tv cameras. If he went to prison it wasn't the SFA's fault.

[erin go bragh]

Duncan Ferguson was already on a year's probation when he nutted John McStay in front of 40k+ spectators, a few dozen on duty policemen and the tv cameras. If he went to prison it wasn't the SFA's fault.

No way did DF deserve the tin pale for what was minimal contact . The SFA done him up like a kipper imo .

Ggtth

[silverhibee]

Duncan Ferguson was already on a year's probation when he nutted John McStay in front of 40k+ spectators, a few dozen on duty policemen and the tv cameras. If he went to prison it wasn't the SFA's fault.

You really think the police/courts should have got involved with the Ferguson incident, doesn't matter if he was on probation for something else, the SFA should have dealt with the matter as it happened on the football pitch, Ferguson should never have went to prison for that, FFS fans come on to the pitch and attack players and managers and get a slap on the wrist for it, and why did the Police not arrest Boyd and Moschini a few weeks ago. :greengrin

Why the Police ever got involved with the Ferguson incident i will never no. Baffling decision when you see what went on in football then and now. Crazy.

[Peevemor]

No way did DF deserve the tin pale for what was minimal contact . The SFA done him up like a kipper imo .

Ggtth


You really think the police/courts should have got involved with the Ferguson incident, doesn't matter if he was on probation for something else, the SFA should have dealt with the matter as it happened on the football pitch, Ferguson should never have went to prison for that, FFS fans come on to the pitch and attack players and managers and get a slap on the wrist for it, and why did the Police not arrest Boyd and Moschini a few weeks ago. :greengrin

Why the Police ever got involved with the Ferguson incident i will never no. Baffling decision when you see what went on in football then and now. Crazy.

Was there not something that the SFA (or Scottish League?) didn't want to issue their punishment because they didn't want to prejudice the criminal hearing?

I agree that a prison term probably was harsh, but it was his 3rd or 4th offence and he was on probabtion at the time.

I don't see how the football authorities can be blamed for him doing time.

[Bishop Hibee]

Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. Being a footballer is not a normal career; a club is part of a community and players should try and be an active part of that and I would not want to see him as part of the wider Hibernian community. Whilst he's served his time, I believe his career as a professional footballer should be over, in favour of something less high profile.

This. Maybe a career at Hertz would suit him better. They know no shame.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He's a convicted rapist and a registered sex offender, who pre-booked a hotel room for him and his mate. His mate texts him to say he's got a "bird" and lo and behold Evans appears at the hotel too. (I've read the court transcript :agree:)

I'm surprised the question is even being asked and couldn't care if he came with a guaranteed 50 goals per season :no way:

Spot on. It's an emphatic no from me also.

[McIntosh]

No thanks . Hibs don't employ sex offenders .


Ggtth

Not knowingly

[Bronson]

I'm going to go against the grain here and possibly upset a few people, tin hat firmly on.

I'd take him. He's a good player and I think he'll get a club no bother.

Here's the thing though, I don't think he's actually guilty of rape as such. The woman openly admitted at the time she never actually said 'no', he was convicted because she was 'too drunk to give her consent', which in my opinion is very harsh. He was probably drunk too and they probably went home after a night club, as far as I'm aware there was nothing violent about the incident.

I was shocked when he was given a 5 year sentence and if what I'm saying is right, I feel for him because it's ruined what was a hugely promising career. I'm going to make this very clear right now though: I do not in any way condone rape, I just do not think Ched Evans is guilty.

[JimBHibees]

What has this story got to do with Judy Finnegan? Why would she feel the need to comment at all?

Seems idiotic

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm going to go against the grain here and possibly upset a few people, tin hat firmly on.

I'd take him. He's a good player and I think he'll get a club no bother.

Here's the thing though, I don't think he's actually guilty of rape as such. The woman openly admitted at the time she never actually said 'no', he was convicted because she was 'too drunk to give her consent', which in my opinion is very harsh. He was probably drunk too and they probably went home after a night club, as far as I'm aware there was nothing violent about the incident.

I was shocked when he was given a 5 year sentence and if what I'm saying is right, I feel for him because it's ruined what was a hugely promising career. I'm going to make this very clear right now though: I do not in any way condone rape, I just do not think Ched Evans is guilty.

I didn't follow the details of the case closely, so I can only base an opinion upon the guilty verdict returned in a court of law. Of course there are cases of innocent people being found guilty, but, unless his conviction is overturned, Evans is a convicted sex offender and isn't the kind of man I want representing Hibs. Furthermore, whatever the legal position, the guy is obviously a sleazy character who has no respect for women, though, hopefully, he's thought deeply about that whilst in prison.

[silverhibee]

What has this story got to do with Judy Finnegan? Why would she feel the need to comment at all?

Seems idiotic


Your obviously not a Loose Woman fan. :greengrin

[lucky]

If he or his like came to Hibs I would not watch. I believe in giving offenders a second chance but sex offenders should be banned from football. Just watch the kids at half time, they score a goal and copy their idols. We can't or could not tolerate **** like this at our club

[blackpoolhibs]

Your obviously not a Loose Woman fan. :greengrin

Unlike Ched.

[silverhibee]

Unlike Ched.

:faf:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Unlike Ched.

10/10. (not worthy emicon).

[CraigHibee]

no thanks

[Itsnoteasy]

A lot being said about this guys and his possible return to football.

If he was coming to Hibs - what would your thoughts be on this?

Right now if he was going to bang in the goals taking into account our poor record up front i'd take him.

Can't believe you even mentioned this low life ****. If it was your daughter who was raped I wonder if you would change your tune

[Eyrie]

On the one hand we should consider that he has served his sentence and offenders do need to be rehabilitated.

On the other hand Evans is a convicted rapist with no remorse and I would be appalled if Hibs even considered him for long enough to say that the club has no interest in him.

[Sir David Gray]

No thanks.

[hibee92]

He's a rapist ****bag. No.

[Scouse Hibee]

Not football related but Jamie Oliver has no qualms over employing such people.

[silverhibee]

Not football related but Jamie Oliver has no qualms over employing such people.

Neither do the yams.

[lucky]

Neither do the yams.

If he bought Hibs then he would be relevant but he's not so its irrelevant

[Swedish hibee]

No way should he ever be allowed in a football team. I find it appalling that Sheffield are considering it :grr:

[Beefster]

I'm going to go against the grain here and possibly upset a few people, tin hat firmly on.

I'd take him. He's a good player and I think he'll get a club no bother.

Here's the thing though, I don't think he's actually guilty of rape as such. The woman openly admitted at the time she never actually said 'no', he was convicted because she was 'too drunk to give her consent', which in my opinion is very harsh. He was probably drunk too and they probably went home after a night club, as far as I'm aware there was nothing violent about the incident.

I was shocked when he was given a 5 year sentence and if what I'm saying is right, I feel for him because it's ruined what was a hugely promising career. I'm going to make this very clear right now though: I do not in any way condone rape, I just do not think Ched Evans is guilty.

Presumably if a woman was unconscious on the street and a passing guy decided to have sex with her, you wouldn't consider that rape?

[Bronson]

I didn't follow the details of the case closely, so I can only base an opinion upon the guilty verdict returned in a court of law. Of course there are cases of innocent people being found guilty, but, unless his conviction is overturned, Evans is a convicted sex offender and isn't the kind of man I want representing Hibs. Furthermore, whatever the legal position, the guy is obviously a sleazy character who has no respect for women, though, hopefully, he's thought deeply about that whilst in prison.

Sleazy perhaps, but Ryan Giggs, Ashley Cole, John Terry are sleazy, that's besides the point. The fact is he's served time for a crime he, along with many people, believes he is innocent of. In my opinion he should be allowed to get on with the rest of his life. Mike Tyson was done for rape and he boxed again after he got out of jail, why the complete uproar from some with Evans?


Presumably if a woman was unconscious on the street and a passing guy decided to have sex with her, you wouldn't consider that rape?

Not a comparable scenario at all really. She was drunk not black-out unconscious.

[Sir David Gray]

Not a comparable scenario at all really. She was drunk not black-out unconscious.

She was still deemed incapable of giving consent so obviously she wasn't just a bit tipsy.

[Bronson]

She was still deemed incapable of giving consent so obviously she wasn't just a bit tipsy.

Correct, she was probably rat ar*e pished, but chances are he was also drunk. To deem that rape and hand out a 5 year jail sentence, ruining a young man's career is very harsh IMO.

[Beefster]

Not a comparable scenario at all really. She was drunk not black-out unconscious.

I didn't specify why the woman was unconscious. Incidentally, the girl in the Evans case wasn't just drunk, she was comatose.

Irrespective of whether a person is unconscious because of alcohol, a crack on the head, fainting, drugs or just sleep, sex without consent is rape IMHO. It seems that the jury agreed. The guy who had sex with her before Evans was found not guilty - presumably because she was still conscious at that point and implied consent in some way.

[Bronson]

I didn't specify why the woman was unconscious. Incidentally, the girl in the Evans case wasn't just drunk, she was comatose.

Irrespective of whether a person is unconscious because of alcohol, a crack on the head, fainting, drugs or just sleep, sex without consent is rape IMHO. It seems that the jury agreed. The guy who had sex with her before Evans was found not guilty - presumably because she was still conscious at that point and implied consent in some way.

As far as I'm aware she wasn't comatose. He was never made aware it was not consensual and that's not because she wasn't awake to tell him. It's a difficult one, but a harsh verdict IMO.

[Swedish hibee]

Correct, she was probably rat ar*e pished, but chances are he was also drunk. To deem that rape and hand out a 5 year jail sentence, ruining a young man's career is very harsh IMO.

As a female I am appalled at everything you have just quoted.

[portycabbage]

As far as I'm aware she wasn't comatose. He was never made aware it was not consensual and that's not because she wasn't awake to tell him. It's a difficult one, but a harsh verdict IMO.

I think the problem with that wording is it implies (IMO) that he can just assume consent unless he is told otherwise, which isn't correct on my understanding of these things.

[Bronson]

As a female I am appalled at everything you have just quoted.

The fact you're a female is irrelevant, Ched Evans' sister and current girlfriend are both female and they also think he's innocent. If you disagree with my opinion that's fine, although I have to say I don't think there's much appalling about it.

[Bronson]

I think the problem with that wording is it implies (IMO) that he can just assume consent unless he is told otherwise, which isn't correct on my understanding of these things.

That's a fair point, one I don't really have an answer to, but how do you know that it's not consensual in that case?

[weonlywon6-2]

You really think the police/courts should have got involved with the Ferguson incident, doesn't matter if he was on probation for something else, the SFA should have dealt with the matter as it happened on the football pitch, Ferguson should never have went to prison for that, FFS fans come on to the pitch and attack players and managers and get a slap on the wrist for it, and why did the Police not arrest Boyd and Moschini a few weeks ago. :greengrin

Why the Police ever got involved with the Ferguson incident i will never no. Baffling decision when you see what went on in football then and now. Crazy.

The media caused it.When things like that happen and becomes high profile the fiscals usually direct the police to look into it,or McStay made a complaint to police at the time

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's a fair point, one I don't really have an answer to, but how do you know that it's not consensual in that case?

Surely the assumption must always be that is isn't acceptable to begin having sexual intercourse with a complete stranger whose faculties are compromised! Why would anyone assume that a stranger would be consenting in that circumstance? That's assuming that was the situation in the Evans case. I don't know what the particular circumstances were.

[portycabbage]

That's a fair point, one I don't really have an answer to, but how do you know that it's not consensual in that case?

The simple answer is I don't know as I've not really read up on the details of it, but I'd imagine that not much effort was made on the men's part to find out if she was consenting or not. The point I was trying to make was that "not saying no" to someone's advances doesn't equate to consent, as they may be in shock when it happens (for instance). Evans himself being drunk may make someone less careful about such things, but he'd still be responsible for his actions.

I don't particularly want to go and read about it but maybe I should!

[Bronson]

The simple answer is I don't know as I've not really read up on the details of it, but I'd imagine that not much effort was made on the men's part to find out if she was consenting or not. The point I was trying to make was that "not saying no" to someone's advances doesn't equate to consent, as they may be in shock when it happens (for instance). Evans himself being drunk may make someone less careful about such things, but he'd still be responsible for his actions.

I don't particularly want to go and read about it but maybe I should!

I agree with what you're saying to an extent. However you said he's responsible for his actions when he's drunk - true. But by that logic, she is also (at very least partly) responsible for her actions when she's drunk.

[Lucky_Jim]

I am somewhat surprised at just how reactionary some of the responses are here. Judging by the vast majority of the posts, the general consensus (at least amongst those who have posted on this thread) is that we don't have much time for the concept of rehabilitation. The question about whether the guy could score lots of goals for us is, in my strong view, entirely irrelevant to this debate. The fundamental question is surely whether we believe that people who have done wrong are a) capable of being rehabilitated b) deserve a second chance, and c) can be effective contributors to society again. Whilst I would never, ever underestimate or condone the gravity of, and pain caused by, the sort of crimes that Evans has been convicted of, I would be really deeply saddened if, as a society, our resounding answer to questions a), b) and c) was no.

Two things that set law abiding citizens apart from criminals in society is, firstly, the ability to desist from engaging in the illegal and damaging behaviours that they have done, and secondly to forgive them for what they have done after a suitable period of punishment and rehabilitation. It's surely a fundamental principle of the legal system that dictates what punishment we dish out according to the severity and impact of a crime; otherwise we would apply no level of judgment to the criminal justice system and simply lock up all criminals - regardless of their crime - and throw away the key. Or worse, hang them. Surely the litmus test of any civilised society is the ability to rise above criminal or uncivilised behaviour ourselves. I would contest that the idea of condemning a man who has served his punishment to a life less civilised and free of the human rights that we all enjoy is the sort of illegal and uncivilised behaviour that we all condem in those criminals.

I personally believe strongly in the concept of giving people who have wronged the chance to atone for their mistakes and to again become valued members of a community. If we don't give criminals that hope of rehabilitation and reintegration then what possible motive do we offer them to change their ways. If criminals leave jail and re-enter society as permanent criminals in the eyes of others then what incentive do they have to feel remorse, try and atone for their crimes, and choose a different path.

I genuinely think that a football club - whether it's Sheff Utd or whoever - have an opportunity to be a force of good and compassion in this case. If Evans, having served the punishment laid down to him, is, in the eyes of his criminal justice social workers and the football club's management, demonstrating the sort of remorse and eagerness to reintegrate back into society as a law abiding and responsible citizen as they would expect then I would be all for him reviving his career as a pro footballer. After all, it is obviously the one profession that he is best qualified for and would be able to make the most positive impact doing.

In the right circumstances (i.e. what social workers etc told us about his rehabilitation) then I would be all for Hibs taking the brave decision to sign him. It would be a bold and potentially hugely impactful step that could set us apart as a community organisation where compassion and forgiveness are cornerstones of what we do.

Jim

[portycabbage]

I agree with what you're saying to an extent. However you said he's responsible for his actions when he's drunk - true. But by that logic, she is also (at very least partly) responsible for her actions when she's drunk.

She was described by witnesses as unable to stand and confused, and Evans was aware enough to leave by the fire exit afterwards, while even on his account she wasn't conscious by the time he was dressed. Being drunk doesn't mean you are responsible for being raped - it might not be sensible to go near a weedgie orange march wearing a celtc top, but it doesn't make it less of an assault if you get attacked. I don't think its sensible to go near orange marches or to wear celtc tops in general btw!

[TowerHibs]

Yet some would take a self confessed coke head back if he was fit. The murder, rape, trafficking and all sorts that it takes for that wee bag of white powder to land at his door

Can't have it all ways.

100 rapists get out of jail every week. Where are the 140k of people who have dined this petition when this happens. I agree that the attention is there because he is a footballer but as someone who has volunteered for victim support I find it interesting to see how this plays out and where this outrage will force w more people to get involved

[Bronson]

She was described by witnesses as unable to stand and confused, and Evans was aware enough to leave by the fire exit afterwards, while even on his account she wasn't conscious by the time he was dressed. Being drunk doesn't mean you are responsible for being raped - it might not be sensible to go near a weedgie orange march wearing a celtc top, but it doesn't make it less of an assault if you get attacked. I don't think its sensible to go near orange marches or to wear celtc tops in general btw!

Come on now, don't twist my words, we both know that's not what I'm saying at all.

Other than that, your point is very valid. While I agree it was a very sleazy thing to do, I'm not convinced it constitutes as rape. It's a bit of a grey area really.

[erin-go-bragh87]

My worry with that case was he was prosecuted on the grounds that she was too intoxicated to consent. That's fine, I get that. What I don't get is how the other guy could be found not guilty of the same crime? She was surely too drunk to consent to them both, different verdicts for co-defendants accused of the same crime with the same evidence at the same trial is strange.

[portycabbage]

I am somewhat surprised at just how reactionary some of the responses are here. Judging by the vast majority of the posts, the general consensus (at least amongst those who have posted on this thread) is that we don't have much time for the concept of rehabilitation. The question about whether the guy could score lots of goals for us is, in my strong view, entirely irrelevant to this debate. The fundamental question is surely whether we believe that people who have done wrong are a) capable of being rehabilitated b) deserve a second chance, and c) can be effective contributors to society again. Whilst I would never, ever underestimate or condone the gravity of, and pain caused by, the sort of crimes that Evans has been convicted of, I would be really deeply saddened if, as a society, our resounding answer to questions a), b) and c) was no.

Two things that set law abiding citizens apart from criminals in society is, firstly, the ability to desist from engaging in the illegal and damaging behaviours that they have done, and secondly to forgive them for what they have done after a suitable period of punishment and rehabilitation. It's surely a fundamental principle of the legal system that dictates what punishment we dish out according to the severity and impact of a crime; otherwise we would apply no level of judgment to the criminal justice system and simply lock up all criminals - regardless of their crime - and throw away the key. Or worse, hang them. Surely the litmus test of any civilised society is the ability to rise above criminal or uncivilised behaviour ourselves. I would contest that the idea of condemning a man who has served his punishment to a life less civilised and free of the human rights that we all enjoy is the sort of illegal and uncivilised behaviour that we all condem in those criminals.

I personally believe strongly in the concept of giving people who have wronged the chance to atone for their mistakes and to again become valued members of a community. If we don't give criminals that hope of rehabilitation and reintegration then what possible motive do we offer them to change their ways. If criminals leave jail and re-enter society as permanent criminals in the eyes of others then what incentive do they have to feel remorse, try and atone for their crimes, and choose a different path.

I genuinely think that a football club - whether it's Sheff Utd or whoever - have an opportunity to be a force of good and compassion in this case. If Evans, having served the punishment laid down to him, is, in the eyes of his criminal justice social workers and the football club's management, demonstrating the sort of remorse and eagerness to reintegrate back into society as a law abiding and responsible citizen as they would expect then I would be all for him reviving his career as a pro footballer. After all, it is obviously the one profession that he is best qualified for and would be able to make the most positive impact doing.

In the right circumstances (i.e. what social workers etc told us about his rehabilitation) then I would be all for Hibs taking the brave decision to sign him. It would be a bold and potentially hugely impactful step that could set us apart as a community organisation where compassion and forgiveness are cornerstones of what we do.

Jim

I think we could still say yes to a), b) and c) without agreeing that he should have the opportunity to represent a football club - he could still contribute to society doing something where he's not in the public eye and a role model. From what I've seen, he still doesn't think he's done anything wrong - he's being released as his sentence is half up (automatic early release I'm assuming) rather than because he's considered rehabilitated.

I'd have to question the "positive impact" of him being able to pick up where he left off with his career, and it's not unusual for people not to be employed in certain lines of work because of a past conviction. I think the main impact would be to say to the public that the club thinks rape isn't that serious; and such a club would not be seen as compassionate or forgiving, but as opportunistic and amoral (rightly IMO).

[McIntosh]

I am somewhat surprised at just how reactionary some of the responses are here. Judging by the vast majority of the posts, the general consensus (at least amongst those who have posted on this thread) is that we don't have much time for the concept of rehabilitation. The question about whether the guy could score lots of goals for us is, in my strong view, entirely irrelevant to this debate. The fundamental question is surely whether we believe that people who have done wrong are a) capable of being rehabilitated b) deserve a second chance, and c) can be effective contributors to society again. Whilst I would never, ever underestimate or condone the gravity of, and pain caused by, the sort of crimes that Evans has been convicted of, I would be really deeply saddened if, as a society, our resounding answer to questions a), b) and c) was no.

Two things that set law abiding citizens apart from criminals in society is, firstly, the ability to desist from engaging in the illegal and damaging behaviours that they have done, and secondly to forgive them for what they have done after a suitable period of punishment and rehabilitation. It's surely a fundamental principle of the legal system that dictates what punishment we dish out according to the severity and impact of a crime; otherwise we would apply no level of judgment to the criminal justice system and simply lock up all criminals - regardless of their crime - and throw away the key. Or worse, hang them. Surely the litmus test of any civilised society is the ability to rise above criminal or uncivilised behaviour ourselves. I would contest that the idea of condemning a man who has served his punishment to a life less civilised and free of the human rights that we all enjoy is the sort of illegal and uncivilised behaviour that we all condem in those criminals.

I personally believe strongly in the concept of giving people who have wronged the chance to atone for their mistakes and to again become valued members of a community. If we don't give criminals that hope of rehabilitation and reintegration then what possible motive do we offer them to change their ways. If criminals leave jail and re-enter society as permanent criminals in the eyes of others then what incentive do they have to feel remorse, try and atone for their crimes, and choose a different path.

I genuinely think that a football club - whether it's Sheff Utd or whoever - have an opportunity to be a force of good and compassion in this case. If Evans, having served the punishment laid down to him, is, in the eyes of his criminal justice social workers and the football club's management, demonstrating the sort of remorse and eagerness to reintegrate back into society as a law abiding and responsible citizen as they would expect then I would be all for him reviving his career as a pro footballer. After all, it is obviously the one profession that he is best qualified for and would be able to make the most positive impact doing.

In the right circumstances (i.e. what social workers etc told us about his rehabilitation) then I would be all for Hibs taking the brave decision to sign him. It would be a bold and potentially hugely impactful step that could set us apart as a community organisation where compassion and forgiveness are cornerstones of what we do.

Jim great post :top marks

[My_Wife_Camille]

If he ever signed for Hibs then I would be out.

[Jay]

http://chedevans.com

[Hibernia&Alba]

I am somewhat surprised at just how reactionary some of the responses are here. Judging by the vast majority of the posts, the general consensus (at least amongst those who have posted on this thread) is that we don't have much time for the concept of rehabilitation. The question about whether the guy could score lots of goals for us is, in my strong view, entirely irrelevant to this debate. The fundamental question is surely whether we believe that people who have done wrong are a) capable of being rehabilitated b) deserve a second chance, and c) can be effective contributors to society again. Whilst I would never, ever underestimate or condone the gravity of, and pain caused by, the sort of crimes that Evans has been convicted of, I would be really deeply saddened if, as a society, our resounding answer to questions a), b) and c) was no.

Two things that set law abiding citizens apart from criminals in society is, firstly, the ability to desist from engaging in the illegal and damaging behaviours that they have done, and secondly to forgive them for what they have done after a suitable period of punishment and rehabilitation. It's surely a fundamental principle of the legal system that dictates what punishment we dish out according to the severity and impact of a crime; otherwise we would apply no level of judgment to the criminal justice system and simply lock up all criminals - regardless of their crime - and throw away the key. Or worse, hang them. Surely the litmus test of any civilised society is the ability to rise above criminal or uncivilised behaviour ourselves. I would contest that the idea of condemning a man who has served his punishment to a life less civilised and free of the human rights that we all enjoy is the sort of illegal and uncivilised behaviour that we all condem in those criminals.

I personally believe strongly in the concept of giving people who have wronged the chance to atone for their mistakes and to again become valued members of a community. If we don't give criminals that hope of rehabilitation and reintegration then what possible motive do we offer them to change their ways. If criminals leave jail and re-enter society as permanent criminals in the eyes of others then what incentive do they have to feel remorse, try and atone for their crimes, and choose a different path.

I genuinely think that a football club - whether it's Sheff Utd or whoever - have an opportunity to be a force of good and compassion in this case. If Evans, having served the punishment laid down to him, is, in the eyes of his criminal justice social workers and the football club's management, demonstrating the sort of remorse and eagerness to reintegrate back into society as a law abiding and responsible citizen as they would expect then I would be all for him reviving his career as a pro footballer. After all, it is obviously the one profession that he is best qualified for and would be able to make the most positive impact doing.

In the right circumstances (i.e. what social workers etc told us about his rehabilitation) then I would be all for Hibs taking the brave decision to sign him. It would be a bold and potentially hugely impactful step that could set us apart as a community organisation where compassion and forgiveness are cornerstones of what we do.

Jim

You make some very good points, Jim, and I share your progressive view of criminal justice. I believe that even serious criminals should have the opportunity to re-integrate into society and make a new start, and that their past shouldn't be held against them indefinitely. As you say, each case is individual and we must judge the level of rehabilitation and remorse. However, we also as a society need to demonstrably show that sexual violence against women is totally unacceptable, and that we as a football club won't be seen to mitigate it. Yes, the criminal justice system is there to punish, but we cannot wash our hands of the conduct of employees and simply say "it's in the past". We must consider the victim and the responsibilities football clubs have to the community. If a rapist were a doctor or a teacher, I'm sure their career would be over.

So whilst I'm all for rehabilitation, I don't think a career in professional football is apt following a conviction for rape. It could be misconstrued and could be uncomfortable for the community and for parents. It's a difficult one, granted, when weighing up the right of the ex-offender to move on, against the victim's feelings and the club's responsibilities.

[Ronniekirk]

Come on now, don't twist my words, we both know that's not what I'm saying at all.

Other than that, your point is very valid. While I agree it was a very sleazy thing to do, I'm not convinced it constitutes as rape. It's a bit of a grey area really.
The fact he was sentenced means there was no grey area He was convicted therefor guilty . The key issue is has he accepted what he did was wrong ,has he undergone a programme which makes him less likely to do the same if presented with the same set of circumstances .
If there is a risk assessment from the prisionn that indicates he is an ongoing risk to women then he shouldn't be allowed back to the club end of .what would that say about the club .
However as a matter of principle convicted criminals who are willing to accept the right support to change deserve the right to be rehabiliitated back into the community if it is safe to do so .

[Ronniekirk]

http://chedevans.com
Following my last post came across this link and read a fair bit of it .There is certainly a very active campaign to get an appeal that they hope will quash the original conviction .Will be interested to see how this plays out in the Courts

[heretoday]

The likelihood is he'll get pelters from the fans wherever he plays and his continuing career will be short. Personally I go along with the "he's done his time" school of opinion.

[Allant1981]

http://chedevans.com

She certainly doesnt look like she can hardly walk in those images, i think this guy has been made an example of big time

[portycabbage]

Come on now, don't twist my words, we both know that's not what I'm saying at all.

Other than that, your point is very valid. While I agree it was a very sleazy thing to do, I'm not convinced it constitutes as rape. It's a bit of a grey area really.

I assumed what you were saying was that she's responsible for being in the situation where something like that could happen, but it seems like the men were much more aware what they were up to than she was. And I was just making it explicit that drunkenness in itself doesn't make her at fault for what happened whatsoever - in terms of it still being a crime. I suppose it depends what we believe happened in terms of her agreeing to have sex with a second person, as to me it doesn't sound that she'd really had much opportunity to realise what was about to happen. I'm actually not sure which actions you mean that she's responsible for now, unless you've read something that suggests she had agreed (and been in a fit state to agree) to sex with Evans and changed her mind the next day? Wasn't trying to twist anything, sorry if that's how it appeared.

[weonlywon6-2]

http://chedevans.com

Interesting reading.It says at the end no complaint was made and the courts only had admission from the two accused,thats a strange one

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting reading.It says at the end no complaint was made and the courts only had admission from the two accused,thats a strange one

Indeed.

The other thing I picked up on is this quote "that drunken consent to sexual intercourse is nevertheless consent in the eyes of the law. "

I'm pretty sure that, in Scots Law, drunk people are incapable of giving consent.

[weonlywon6-2]

Indeed.

The other thing I picked up on is this quote "that drunken consent to sexual intercourse is nevertheless consent in the eyes of the law. "

I'm pretty sure that, in Scots Law, drunk people are incapable of giving consent.

Its a very grey area.At what point drunk and incapable from just having a few drinks and being happy??
If a female is out for the count due to drink and has sex then yes its clear but if they are still talikng and standing and agree to sex then when sober say they have been raped then that must make it very hard to deal with in law,there will be many arguements for and against

[Nutmegged]

Indeed.

The other thing I picked up on is this quote "that drunken consent to sexual intercourse is nevertheless consent in the eyes of the law. "

I'm pretty sure that, in Scots Law, drunk people are incapable of giving consent.

Surely drunken consent must work both ways?

[21.05.2016]

Evans is a ****bag who hasn't even had the decency to acknowledge what he did.

If Hibs signed him (or someone similar), I'd post my ST back the same day.

100% this Beefster!

Hibs are a family club that have always upheld morals unlike our skanky neighbours across the road. Hearts might be quite happy to employ perverts but I would never ever want to see this kind of character at ER. Any other job wouldn't have him anywhere near them, why should he just stroll back into the football proffesion, earning a decent wage and having what many would consider a "dream job" after what he did. Imagine if you were his victim or a member of the victims family - I would feel physically sick seeing him back into football and carry on living his dream just like nothing ever happened.

It's not like this is just some petty crime, rape is a vile, evil crime that has destroyed the lives of many women. Unforgivable IMO.

[DarrenSQH]

I would give him a second chance.

[Sammy7nil]

I wonder if anyone has asked the victim what she thinks? Does she think he can be forgiven, should he be given a second chance?

Many on here say his crime is unforgiveable but many victims and their families in the case of murder forgive the offender.

I fully appreciate even if the victim can forgive it does not absolve the offender in anyway they have still committed a vile crime and will have to work hard to be fully accepted back in to the community.

[weonlywon6-2]

Surely drunken consent must work both ways?

Yeah i would say so,each case will stand on its own
Must be very hard to determine the true facts at times

[Pretty Boy]

Surely drunken consent must work both ways?

I think the issue here is that in legal terms a male can't be raped by a female.

[weonlywon6-2]

I think the issue here is that in legal terms a male can't be raped by a female.

True,the defenition of rape in scots law surrounds the female body and not the male.
People do say men have been raped by men but it is sexual assault in real terms

[Pete]

The fact he was sentenced means there was no grey area He was convicted therefor guilty

You could have said that about the Birmingham six or the Guildford four after they were convicted. Justice is carried out by human beings and we can make mistakes and form prejudices...it's far from perfect.

Personally, I've read the details and I'm not comfortable the decision and their justifications for the contrasting fortunes of the two men. I think they've collectively made an example of him and he's quite right to robustly object to his conviction. Juries are made up of all sorts though and the majority obviously seen things differently...too many grey areas for me. What about the tweets bragging about her victory and offering to buy people gifts after her pay out. WTF was that all about?

As for having him at hibs...I wouldn't unless his conviction was quashed. The role model argument is a sound one.

[Hibernia&Alba]

:agree: This thread makes my head swim a bit. I was going to reply yesterday but I held off, but I opened it again today and felt compelled to write something.



If only it were irrelevant. The fact is that (most) men will never experience the act of rape nor live in fear of the act, something that many women and girls have to think about on a daily basis.

As a female who has been on the receiving end of such a horrible act I would not (could not) go back to Hibs if they knowingly employed someone convicted of rape. People are saying that offenders should be given a chance to be rehabilitated into society but surely this only applies if they acknowledge what they did was wrong and are willing to put work in to try to get better. Ched Evans doesn't appear to think he has done anything wrong and that's almost as bad as the act itself.

It doesn't matter if a victim didn't say the word 'no.' You don't have no say no to be raped, you just have to be unable to give consent. If she was too drunk, or too frightened, or coerced, or beaten, it all amounts to the same thing. And no, it doesn't matter if he was drunk too, that's besides the point. If a man in control enough of his faculties to take advantage of a woman when she was not in a position to give consent, it's rape, no matter how drunk he is. Being drunk is just another excuse being churned out like she was dressed like a slut or she was asking for it - a way to take responsibility off the perpetrator and put it onto the victim.

A very powerful post which illustrates the moral issue any club thinking about signing Evans will need to consider.

[Allant1981]

Maybe im just being daft here but if there was no complaint from the female how did the police find out about it?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think that if you've screwed up like this guy has, the best thing is to get your head down and get out of the way.

[#FromTheCapital]

Not sure what to make of this to be honest. The girl can't remember a thing apparently, and according to the two men in question she did consent. So it's their word against, well nobodies really.
Evans would definitely seem a bit perverted, but I'm not entirely convinced he's a rapist... However the fact that the jury thought otherwise is enough reason for him to stay out of football until such times as he can prove his innocence - although I don't know how he's going to manage that.

[DH1875]

My worry with that case was he was prosecuted on the grounds that she was too intoxicated to consent. That's fine, I get that. What I don't get is how the other guy could be found not guilty of the same crime? She was surely too drunk to consent to them both, different verdicts for co-defendants accused of the same crime with the same evidence at the same trial is strange.


Yeah, this is the bit that I dont understand.

[#FromTheCapital]

Maybe im just being daft here but if there was no complaint from the female how did the police find out about it?

She initially reported that she'd had her drink spiked after waking up in a hotel, having no idea how she got there. The police looked into it and discovered that the room was booked by a footballer and it soon became a rape investigation. I don't think she had any recollection of sexual activity.

[Killiehibbie]

Come on now, don't twist my words, we both know that's not what I'm saying at all.

Other than that, your point is very valid. While I agree it was a very sleazy thing to do, I'm not convinced it constitutes as rape. It's a bit of a grey area really.There seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to how drunk she was. If she was so drunk that consent could not be given how was the other guy cleared?

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[hibsbollah]

Evans is a ****bag who hasn't even had the decency to acknowledge what he did.

If Hibs signed him (or someone similar), I'd post my ST back the same day.

:agree:

[Mon Dieu4]

:agree: This thread makes my head swim a bit. I was going to reply yesterday but I held off, but I opened it again today and felt compelled to write something.



If only it were irrelevant. The fact is that (most) men will never experience the act of rape nor live in fear of the act, something that many women and girls have to think about on a daily basis.

As a female who has been on the receiving end of such a horrible act I would not (could not) go back to Hibs if they knowingly employed someone convicted of rape. People are saying that offenders should be given a chance to be rehabilitated into society but surely this only applies if they acknowledge what they did was wrong and are willing to put work in to try to get better. Ched Evans doesn't appear to think he has done anything wrong and that's almost as bad as the act itself.

It doesn't matter if a victim didn't say the word 'no.' You don't have no say no to be raped, you just have to be unable to give consent. If she was too drunk, or too frightened, or coerced, or beaten, it all amounts to the same thing. And no, it doesn't matter if he was drunk too, that's besides the point. If a man in control enough of his faculties to take advantage of a woman when she was not in a position to give consent, it's rape, no matter how drunk he is. Being drunk is just another excuse being churned out like she was dressed like a slut or she was asking for it - a way to take responsibility off the perpetrator and put it onto the victim.

:top marks

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sky News has just shown a video Evans has made, asking to be allowed back into football. It makes for very awkward viewing. Beside him is his distraught looking girlfriend who would patently rather be anywhere else. He refers to his rape conviction as 'cheating' and doesn't mention the victim. I don't know whose idea it would have been, but it does him no favours.

[OsloHibs]

He should for once show some respect for his victim & her family.
The absolute arrogance of himself, his family & believers is astonishing. Not once has he shown any remorse or acceptance- and his latest comments of "being positive for his community" is horrendous.

Kick out racism, but keep rapists in. Enough said.

[LaMotta]

He should for once show some respect for his victim & her family.
The absolute arrogance of himself, his family & believers is astonishing. Not once has he shown any remorse or acceptance- and his latest comments of "being positive for his community" is horrendous.

Kick out racism, but keep rapists in. Enough said.


But he says he is innocent. If he is indeed innocent then how can he show remorse?


I find it incredible that a jury could possibly find him guilty, with no evidence whatsoever to prove either way exactly what happened.

[Hibernia&Alba]

But he says he is innocent. If he is indeed innocent then how can he show remorse?


I find it incredible that a jury could possibly find him guilty, with no evidence whatsoever to prove either way exactly what happened.

The evidence the jury heard convinced them that sex wasn't consensual, as the woman in question was incapable of consenting. The fact the woman was drunk doesn't mean she was fair game for a couple of blokes in a hotel room.

[LaMotta]

The evidence the jury heard convinced them that sex wasn't consensual, as the woman in question was incapable of consenting. The fact the woman was drunk doesn't mean she was fair game for a couple of blokes in a hotel room.


So she was capable of consenting for one of the men but not the other?

You are right - The fact she was drunk dose not mean that she was fair game.

On the other hand, the fact she was drunk does not prove that she was incapable of consenting to sex with either man. She has no recollection of what happened so cannot say whether she consented or not. The fact that she cannot remember does not mean that she was incapable of consenting.

Having been part of a Jury, I find it very worrying that decisions of such great magnitude are made by such a random group of individuals.

[hibsbollah]

So she was capable of consenting for one of the men but not the other?

You are right - The fact she was drunk dose not mean that she was fair game.

On the other hand, the fact she was drunk does not prove that she was incapable of consenting to sex with either man. She has no recollection of what happened so cannot say whether she consented or not. The fact that she cannot remember does not mean that she was incapable of consenting.

Having been part of a Jury, I find it very worrying that decisions of such great magnitude are made by such a random group of individuals.

It sounds like you have been won over by the well funded and organised PR campaign orchestrated by this convicted rapist. By contrast, the victim has had to go into hiding and apparently now has had her new identity exposed by this repugnant mans supporters.

The jury heard the facts and reached their conclusion. By contrast, the 'facts' as you've presented them are filtered and distilled by the Evans PR campaign and a media desperate for titillation.

[#FromTheCapital]

But he says he is innocent. If he is indeed innocent then how can he show remorse?


I find it incredible that a jury could possibly find him guilty, with no evidence whatsoever to prove either way exactly what happened.

Tend to agree with this. I can't see how it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Evans was a rapist. There was three people involved. Two of them say she consented and the third (the alleged victim) can't remember a thing apparently.

[marinello59]

Tend to agree with this. I can't see how it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Evans was a rapist. There was three people involved. Two of them say she consented and the third (the alleged victim) can't remember a thing apparently.

Wouldn't that suggest she was incapable of giving consent at the time then?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Having heard all the evidence, the jury decided the woman in question was in no position to give reasoned consent as consequence of heavy drinking, was vulnerable and then exploited. The Court Of Appeal upheld the original verdict. That being the case, I think it's better focus upon his victim's wellbeing rather than his.

[HH81]

Having heard all the evidence, the jury decided the woman in question was in no position to give reasoned consent as consequence of heavy drinking, was vulnerable and then exploited. The Court Of Appeal upheld the original verdict. That being the case, I think it's better focus upon his victim's wellbeing rather than his.

Any idea how the other footballer got not guilty then?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Any idea how the other footballer got not guilty then?

I would assume because the jury decided they couldn't prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt from the evidence they heard. Perhaps the not guilty verdict was the miscarriage of justice? That's for the courts to decide.

[HH81]

I would assume because the jury decided they couldn't prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt from the evidence they heard. Perhaps the not guilty verdict was the miscarriage of justice? That's for the courts to decide.

The thing is would the evidence not be the same?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The thing is would the evidence not be the same?

Not necessarily, no. The actions of two people could be very different. It's often the case that there are different verdicts for defendants at the same trial. These are the intricacies juries must deal with.

[#FromTheCapital]

Wouldn't that suggest she was incapable of giving consent at the time then?

Perhaps it does suggest that. Certainly doesn't prove it though. And by clearing the other guy it just confuses matters further.

[LaMotta]

It sounds like you have been won over by the well funded and organised PR campaign orchestrated by this convicted rapist. By contrast, the victim has had to go into hiding and apparently now has had her new identity exposed by this repugnant mans supporters.

The jury heard the facts and reached their conclusion. By contrast, the 'facts' as you've presented them are filtered and distilled by the Evans PR campaign and a media desperate for titillation.



The only "facts" I have alluded to are the point that she could not remember what happened, and the fact that she was drunk. I think it has been established that these are both facts.

My point is if she couldnt remember what happened, then one cannot say for sure either way whether she consented or didn't consent to sex with both men.

There is the possibility therefore that he could be innocent, and it's why I find a guilty verdict quite puzzling. Perhaps in Scots Law the verdict of Not Proven may have been applicable??


Final point, Jury's have been wrong before. Please note I am not saying for definite that he is innocent.

[hibsbollah]

The only "facts" I have alluded to are the point that she could not remember what happened, and the fact that she was drunk. I think it has been established that these are both facts.

My point is if she couldnt remember what happened, then one cannot say for sure either way whether she consented or didn't consent to sex with both men.

There is the possibility therefore that he could be innocent, and it's why I find a guilty verdict quite puzzling. Perhaps in Scots Law the verdict of Not Proven may have been applicable??


Final point, Jury's have been wrong before. Please note I am not saying for definite that he is innocent.

I think you're missing the point re-consent. She was unable to give consent, hence, consent wasn't possible, or, in simple terms, the rapists should have kept their hands off her.

[Sergio sledge]

The thing is would the evidence not be the same?



I think it is different because the first guy met her elsewhere and she went willingly to the hotel with him, whereas Evans let himself into the room after they were in bed and joined in. Perhaps the jury accepted that from the evidence she was capable of consenting to the first guy but not to the guy who arrived in the dark and joined in.

[#FromTheCapital]

I think you're missing the point re-consent. She was unable to give consent, hence, consent wasn't possible, or, in simple terms, the rapists should have kept their hands off her.

The story from Evans and the other guy who was cleared is that she consented verbally - and if they're to be fully believed - she was very actively involved in the act. There was nobody there to deny this - other than the girl who can't remember and therefore can't deny. If they're lying then I hope the pair of them rot in hell. But there's no evidence to say they're lying from what I've seen.

[hibsbollah]

But there's no evidence to say they're lying from what I've seen.

There doesn't have to be. Reasonable doubt is sufficient.

[LaMotta]

I think you're missing the point re-consent. She was unable to give consent, hence, consent wasn't possible, or, in simple terms, the rapists should have kept their hands off her.

Im not missing the point. There is no proof that she was unable to give consent.

[hibsbollah]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

The judge in his remarks referred to the CCTV footage as clear proof that she was unable to give consent. That was also the view of the jury.

[LaMotta]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

The judge in his remarks referred to the CCTV footage as clear proof that she was unable to give consent. That was also the view of the jury.

Have you seen the cctv footage? Dont mean that in a sarcastic way btw. She walked into that hotel of her own accord and certainly doesnt look like someone that was incapable of giving consent.

[#FromTheCapital]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

The judge in his remarks referred to the CCTV footage as clear proof that she was unable to give consent. That was also the view of the jury.

The CCTV footage of her entering the hotel shows her perfectly able to walk on her own accord. Even going back outside to pick up a pizza box that she left on the ground.
In any event if the judge said that she was in no state to give consent why the hell did the other guy get away with it?

[hibsbollah]

Have you seen the cctv footage? Dont mean that in a sarcastic way btw. She walked into that hotel of her own accord and certainly doesnt look like someone that was incapable of giving consent.

You said there was no proof. I was pointing out that according to the judge and jury, you are wrong.

Mr Evans and his 'team' has put out cctv footage that he hopes will support his aim of getting back into football. I doubt the footage you are referring to is the same as what was seen in court, otherwise the outcome would have been different, dont you think?

[hibsbollah]

The CCTV footage of her entering the hotel shows her perfectly able to walk on her own accord. Even going back outside to pick up a pizza box that she left on the ground.
In any event if the judge said that she was in no state to give consent why the hell did the other guy get away with it?

I believe this question was answered in a previous post.

[Betty Boop]

Maybe some women should take responsibility for their own behaviour, to end up in a hotel room with some random you met in the kebab shop is a worry, especially if you have no memory the next morning. Not condoning Ched Evans behaviour before anybody starts.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe some women should take responsibility for their own behaviour, to end up in a hotel room with some random you met in the kebab shop is a worry, especially if you have no memory the next morning. Not condoning Ched Evans behaviour before anybody starts.

I used to go back to loads of 'randoms' houses off my nut in my youth, it was called 'all back to mine'. I probably met some of them in kebab shops as well. Im not a woman, so I suspect you think thats different.
I think its bizarre so much attention is spent discussing the rights and wrongs of the victim's behaviour rather than the convicted rapist's. I know where my sympathies lie.

[OsloHibs]

Maybe some women should take responsibility for their own behaviour, to end up in a hotel room with some random you met in the kebab shop is a worry, especially if you have no memory the next morning. Not condoning Ched Evans behaviour before anybody starts.

No but your telling a women how she should act.

A women can act however they choose and wear whatever they choose- no women (or man by a man) deserves to be raped.

I find the complete lack of sympathy on the 5 pages of this thread for a victim of rape astonishing. And horrifying.

[LaMotta]

You said there was no proof. I was pointing out that according to the judge and jury, you are wrong.

Mr Evans and his 'team' has put out cctv footage that he hopes will support his aim of getting back into football. I doubt the footage you are referring to is the same as what was seen in court, otherwise the outcome would have been different, dont you think?

The judge and jury have been wrong on many occassions before. Miscarriages of justice are a routine part of the criminal justice system.

[hibsbollah]

No but your telling a women how she should act.

A women can act however they choose and wear whatever they choose- no women (or man by a man) deserves to be raped.

I find the complete lack of sympathy on the 5 pages of this thread for a victim of rape astonishing. And horrifying.

Couldnt agree more.

[OsloHibs]

The judge and jury have been wrong on many occassions before. Miscarriages of justice are a routine part of the criminal justice system.

And shock- jury's get it right very often too.
Just because he says he is innocent, does not mean he is not. He had his case found guilty by a jury and 3 times he has had his appeal turned down.
He is a rapist and was found guilty.

Now show some respect to his victim by accepting this. He hasn't done this- but we all should.

[#FromTheCapital]

No but your telling a women how she should act.

A women can act however they choose and wear whatever they choose- no women (or man by a man) deserves to be raped.

I find the complete lack of sympathy on the 5 pages of this thread for a victim of rape astonishing. And horrifying.

If there was absolutely no doubt that she was the victim of rape then she'd have my full sympathy. I'm just not entirely convinced that she is and I'm pretty sure that goes for everybody who isn't showing sympathy.

[Betty Boop]

No but your telling a women how she should act.

A women can act however they choose and wear whatever they choose- no women (or man by a man) deserves to be raped.

I find the complete lack of sympathy on the 5 pages of this thread for a victim of rape astonishing. And horrifying.

I never said anybody deserved to be raped.

[LaMotta]

And shock- jury's get it right very often too.
Just because he says he is innocent, does not mean he is not. He had his case found guilty by a jury and 3 times he has had his appeal turned down.
He is a rapist and was found guilty.

Now show some respect to his victim by accepting this. He hasn't done this- but we all should.

I have never said he is innocent. Just because he was found guilty doesnt prove that he raped her though. Are you seriously suggesting there is no dubiety over this case?

[LaMotta]

Again, the drunk thing is getting twisted. If she was so drunk that she could not remember a thing, then she was in no state to give consent and therefore it was rape.

I find it very saddening that some people can't understand why a case like this isn't rape. I don't think it comes from a place of malice or anything, but it shows a complete lack of understanding. I think some people like to think rape is this unspeakably evil act that is only committed by the most terrible of people. It isn't. It's committed by people you know. By dads and brothers and uncles and boyfriends and I'm sure a lot of the time they'll justify it to themselves by not even realising that what they have done is so wrong in their own ignorance, like Evans.

Rape is not something just done by a mythical terrible person, it's done by everyday people. If you believe stats, one in five women have been sexually assaulted and only 60% report it to the police. 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail. And the reason why is because, more than any other crime, rape victims are often accused of lying, or asking for it, or making it up, or consenting and regretting it the next day. Is there any other crime where a victim is put on trial and judged as much as the perpetrator?

Your first paragraph is wrong.

[Jay]

No but your telling a women how she should act.

A women can act however they choose and wear whatever they choose- no women (or man by a man) deserves to be raped.

I find the complete lack of sympathy on the 5 pages of this thread for a victim of rape astonishing. And horrifying.

I'm gonna say what I suspect many are thinking because I'm a woman and won't have the fear of looking like an animal.

I am not telling anybody, male or female, how to act and am certainly not saying she deserves to be raped but she walked happily into a hotel bedroom with two guys, what did she think she was going there for? Even if at any point she changed her mind, there was no evidence nor accusation of force or violence.
She didn't look that drunk when she walked into the hotel, possibly drank more in the room but at the time of walking in she looked to be in a position to be making the choice of going into a bedroom with two guys. She put herself in that position and needs to look after her personal safety a bit better.
Whether he raped her or not I don't know, I've not seen all the evidence but if she didn't put herself, willingly, in that position it would never have happened. I don't believe he planned on raping anybody that night nor did he hide in a park and violently rape her.

[#FromTheCapital]

Could you explain why you think this is?

On the presumption that Evans and his mate are innocent... How were they supposed to know that she was so drunk that she wouldn't remember anything? Especially considering they'd had a few themselves. She certainly doesn't look wasted beyond belief in the cctv.

[LaMotta]

Could you explain why you think this is?


Because she may have actually gave her consent. The fact she cant remember what happened means she may or may not have given consent.

I have on occasion woken up not remembering what happened the night before. I have had sex with my fiance on an evening following copious amounts of alcohol and woken up the next day not remembering the act itself. This doesnt mean that i was not a willing participant the night before.

[Pretty Boy]

I've kept out of this but just a few points from me.

1. People need to take responsibility for their own safety. I had a major falling out with my girlfriend the other week because she walked home drunk from a night out, along a street where a 21 year old girl had been raped 2 weeks before. Her excuse? 'I was drunk and didn't think'. Did she deserve to be attacked? Of course not. Did she put herself at heightened risk? Yes. Getting drunk and going to a hotel room with 2 strangers is a similar gross error of judgement due to alcohol. Of course the victim deserves every sympathy but she has put herself at increased risk because of poor decsion making.

2. This case, in my opinion, shows why rape is a crime that should be 'graded'. Taking advantage of a drunk female when she is judged incapable of informed consent is wrong and should be treated as a serious crime. Is it the same as a man who attacks a random stranger at knife point and violently rapes her? I'm not sure it is. Both wrong, both worthy of contempt but different crimes imo.

3. How does drunken consent work? How do you judge someone is too drunk to consent? I've had sex with people after too much alcohol and/or drugs in my stupider days and remembered very little, if any of it the next day. Would I have behaved the same way if I had been sober? Unlikely. I don't ever feel I was taken advantage of, I made a mistake under the influence. That's not a flippant point, I genuinely don't understand at what point drunk becomes too drunk. It's something that if I were single would probably quite worry me if I met a girl when I was out and we had a few.

[LaMotta]

I've kept out of this but just a few points from me.

1. People need to take responsibility for their own safety. I had a major falling out with my girlfriend the other week because she walked home drunk from a night out, along a street where a 21 year old girl had been raped 2 weeks before. Her excuse? 'I was drunk and didn't think'. Did she deserve to be attacked? Of course not. Did she put herself at heightened risk? Yes. Getting drunk and going to a hotel room with 2 strangers is a similar gross error of judgement due to alcohol. Of course the victim deserves every sympathy but she has put herself at increased risk because of poor decsion making.

2. This case, in my opinion, shows why rape is a crime that should be 'graded'. Taking advantage of a drunk female when she is judged incapable of informed consent is wrong and should be treated as a serious crime. Is it the same as a man who attacks a random stranger at knife point and violently rapes her? I'm not sure it is. Both wrong, both worthy of contempt but different crimes imo.

3. How does drunken consent work? How do you judge someone is too drunk to consent? I've had sex with people after too much alcohol and/or drugs in my stupider days and remembered very little, if any of it the next day. Would I have behaved the same way if I had been sober? Unlikely. I don't ever feel I was taken advantage of, I made a mistake under the influence. That's not a flippant point, I genuinely don't understand at what point drunk becomes too drunk. It's something that if I were single would probably quite worry me if I met a girl when I was out and we had a few.

Very sensible points you make.

[LaMotta]

If she was so drunk that she was not in a position to give consent, then it can't be consent.



I'm not trying to be flippant either, but trust me the worry you might feel if you were out with a girl and you'd had a few drinks pales in comparison to the worry a girl would have if she was alone in the company of a guy who'd had a few. For men, that is privilege, and that's not an insult, just a fact. Unless you are 100% sure that the person you are with really wants to have sex, and you believe that they are in a state capable of making that decision, then you shouldn't be having sex with someone. (Not you specifically, in general terms).

A man who is absolutely drunk out of his mind is still capable of inflicting serious harm on a woman, regardless of how drunk or sober she is. That is why drunken consent doesn't "work both ways" as some people try to say. Speaking from experience, when I was raped the guy was very drunk while I was stone cold sober. Yet I was incapable of giving consent, while he was still clearly quite capable of taking it.

There is no proof she was that drunk. And also that doesnt explain one innocent one guilty conviction.

[Hibrandenburg]

Judging by the different opinions on this thread I think it's safe to say that there is reasonable doubt as to what actually happened.

I do know one thing though, if ever I was convicted of something I didn't do, I certainly would not just shut the f up because a jury had said I was guilty.

[Colr]

Judging by the different opinions on this thread I think it's safe to say that there is reasonable doubt as to what actually happened.

I do know one thing though, if ever I was convicted of something I didn't do, I certainly would not just shut the f up because a jury had said I was guilty.

This is a decription of the facts before the court at appeal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29765415

If Evans and his ****ball friends think this is acceptable behaviour there is something serious missing from their education as men. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Hibs. His attitude is disgusting and that extends to his mates.

[Sergio sledge]

I'm gonna say what I suspect many are thinking because I'm a woman and won't have the fear of looking like an animal.

I am not telling anybody, male or female, how to act and am certainly not saying she deserves to be raped but she walked happily into a hotel bedroom with two guys, what did she think she was going there for? Even if at any point she changed her mind, there was no evidence nor accusation of force or violence.
She didn't look that drunk when she walked into the hotel, possibly drank more in the room but at the time of walking in she looked to be in a position to be making the choice of going into a bedroom with two guys. She put herself in that position and needs to look after her personal safety a bit better.
Whether he raped her or not I don't know, I've not seen all the evidence but if she didn't put herself, willingly, in that position it would never have happened. I don't believe he planned on raping anybody that night nor did he hide in a park and violently rape her.

Just to clear things up, she didn't happily go into the hotel room with two guys, she happily went in with the first guy. Evans let himself into the room after her and the first guy were in bed and decided to join in. This is why the jury have been able to differentiate between the two guys.

By all accounts Evans used deception to obtain a room key from the hotel and told his buddies (who tried to film it through the window) exactly what he was going to do when he got to the room.

The jury heard all this and didn't believe that she consented to sex with Evans.

The girl absolutely has to take responsibility for her actions and that is something she'll have to live with the rest of her life. I'm sure she regrets ever going out that night. BUT she is in no way to blame for being raped and in no way does the fact that she was drunk, or went back to a hotel room with a guy allow or excuse the behaviour of Evans.

[Jay]

Just to clear things up, she didn't happily go into the hotel room with two guys, she happily went in with the first guy. Evans let himself into the room after her and the first guy were in bed and decided to join in. This is why the jury have been able to differentiate between the two guys.

By all accounts Evans used deception to obtain a room key from the hotel and told his buddies (who tried to film it through the window) exactly what he was going to do when he got to the room.

The jury heard all this and didn't believe that she consented to sex with Evans.

The girl absolutely has to take responsibility for her actions and that is something she'll have to live with the rest of her life. I'm sure she regrets ever going out that night. BUT she is in no way to blame for being raped and in no way does the fact that she was drunk, or went back to a hotel room with a guy allow or excuse the behaviour of Evans.

I wasn't aware that he arrived later. Like I said, I don't know the the facts and I don't believe a woman is ever to blame when she is raped. There's obviously a lot more to the story than I know, or in fact, most know.

[#FromTheCapital]

Just to clear things up, she didn't happily go into the hotel room with two guys, she happily went in with the first guy. Evans let himself into the room after her and the first guy were in bed and decided to join in. This is why the jury have been able to differentiate between the two guys.

By all accounts Evans used deception to obtain a room key from the hotel and told his buddies (who tried to film it through the window) exactly what he was going to do when he got to the room.

The jury heard all this and didn't believe that she consented to sex with Evans.

The girl absolutely has to take responsibility for her actions and that is something she'll have to live with the rest of her life. I'm sure she regrets ever going out that night. BUT she is in no way to blame for being raped and in no way does the fact that she was drunk, or went back to a hotel room with a guy allow or excuse the behaviour of Evans.

What you say is true, however according to the two accused, he asked or was asked to join in and the girl consented - and as their story goes she was very involved in the act. It seems to me that Evans is definitely a bit of a pervert but it's the rapist part I'm not convinced about.

[Hibernia&Alba]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9560607/sheffield-united-confirm-ched-evans-will-train-with-the-club-after-pfa-request So Sheffield United are allowing Evans to use their facilities in order to regain his fitness. Are they testing the waters before re-employing him?

[judas]

I don't think he will actually receive a new contract offer at Sheffield.


Good scoring record, banging them in for Sheffield not so long ago. Could get him relatively cheap.

[SunshineOnLeith]

:fishin:

[Greencore]

Why not sign Craig Thomson too? ;)

[NAE NOOKIE]

I don't think he will actually receive a new contract offer at Sheffield.


Good scoring record, banging them in for Sheffield not so long ago. Could get him relatively cheap.

:bye:

[Jonnyboy]

Poor effort

[judas]

He has served his time in front of the law.

Is there to be no redemption? No second chance? Not very christian, is it?!

Id take him.

[frazeHFC]

no

[Boyle89]

Really?

[capitals_finest]

No thanks

[Baader]

Preferably not...

[NAE NOOKIE]

He has served his time in front of the law.

Is there to be no redemption? No second chance? Not very christian, is it?!

Id take him.

I agree mate, but I don't think Hibs or any other UK club would be willing to shoulder the massive dung heap of unwanted bad PR that would inevitably come with such a signing. From what I hear he isn't exactly filled with remorse, which doesn't help.

If Mr Evans wants to resurrect his football career I've a feeling his passport is going to be a valuable asset.

[AgentDaleCooper]

i'll bite...

all i've read about him is from the BBC website, but i don't really think it's right to say that someone should never play again because of a charge like this. i bet there's people on here who watched mike tyson after his spell in prison. also, in this case, there does seem to be some chance that it was basically a case of she was pissed and said yes, then felt (probably, but not definitely, justifiably) that he'd taken advantage of her. the justice system is not perfect, and we can never know when it's dealt with someone harshly (N.B. - i'm NOT saying that it has in this case). my point is that he's done his time, so there's no reason he shouldn't be allowed back into his profession. it's not like it'll be easy for him (N.B. - i'm NOT saying that it should be!). Opposition fans will rip him to bits, and he'll have an absolutely torrid time of even getting his own fans on side. He'll have to prove himself over and over and over just to keep up.

would i have him at hibs? well, if he signed, i'd give him a chance. i wouldn't be booing him, but i wouldn't be cheering him on. i hope we don't sign him, as it would be a PR catastrophe, and it may well divide the dressing room, unless he has pulled himself together to a quite remarkable degree...but if he has, and we did sign him, i'd reserve my judgement until he gave me a reason to doubt him further.

[StarMan10]

No chance of it happening, pointless discussion

[SunshineOnLeith]

i'll bite...

all i've read about him is from the BBC website, but i don't really think it's right to say that someone should never play again because of a charge like this. i bet there's people on here who watched mike tyson after his spell in prison. also, in this case, there does seem to be some chance that it was basically a case of she was pissed and said yes, then felt (probably, but not definitely, justifiably) that he'd taken advantage of her. the justice system is not perfect, and we can never know when it's dealt with someone harshly (N.B. - i'm NOT saying that it has in this case). my point is that he's done his time, so there's no reason he shouldn't be allowed back into his profession. it's not like it'll be easy for him (N.B. - i'm NOT saying that it should be!). Opposition fans will rip him to bits, and he'll have an absolutely torrid time of even getting his own fans on side. He'll have to prove himself over and over and over just to keep up.

would i have him at hibs? well, if he signed, i'd give him a chance. i wouldn't be booing him, but i wouldn't be cheering him on. i hope we don't sign him, as it would be a PR catastrophe, and it may well divide the dressing room, unless he has pulled himself together to a quite remarkable degree...but if he has, and we did sign him, i'd reserve my judgement until he gave me a reason to doubt him further.

He's a convicted rapist. Take your pi$h about 'basically a case she was pissed etc' and shove it up your hole. Disgusting attitude.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There's a long thread on Evans in the Holy Ground section, for anyone interested. A no thanks from me. Taking a principled stance against rape is more important than any amount of goals. I'm all for offender rehabilitation, but public adulation of such an individual via top level football isn't something I could support.

[hibee92]

I'd never go back. The man is a convicted rapist.

[Scottie]

He's a convicted rapist. Take your pi$h about 'basically a case she was pissed etc' and shove it up your hole. Disgusting attitude.
:agree: :aok:

[hibeemikey21]

Here's an interesting question I'd like answered by one of the "he should never play professional football again" thinkers:

What profession would you deem it appropriate to take up? Or should he never work again?

I'm genuinely interested to know peoples' take on that.

[Sir David Gray]

Here's an interesting question I'd like answered by one of the "he should never play professional football again" thinkers:

What profession would you deem it appropriate to take up? Or should he never work again?

I'm genuinely interested to know peoples' take on that.

I don't care what he does, I just wouldn't want him at Hibs and if I was an employer, I wouldn't employ someone with a conviction for something as serious as rape.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Here's an interesting question I'd like answered by one of the "he should never play professional football again" thinkers:

What profession would you deem it appropriate to take up? Or should he never work again?

I'm genuinely interested to know peoples' take on that.

Something out of the public eye where he can re-build his life with quiet humility. Picking up from where he left off shouldn't be an option, and if he had any honour at all, he'd want to withdraw from the public gaze.

[lord bunberry]

I agree mate, but I don't think Hibs or any other UK club would be willing to shoulder the massive dung heap of unwanted bad PR that would inevitably come with such a signing. From what I hear he isn't exactly filled with remorse, which doesn't help.

If Mr Evans wants to resurrect his football career I've a feeling his passport is going to be a valuable asset.
I think a British club will take him on. As the season goes on and clubs become desperate to either avoid relegation or gain promotion, managers and chairman start coming under pressure and morals go out the window. If je starts banging in the goals all will be forgiven imo.

[LaMotta]

He's a convicted rapist. Take your pi$h about 'basically a case she was pissed etc' and shove it up your hole. Disgusting attitude.

Plenty of people have been wrongly convicted before. He maintains his innocence and the appeal courts will deliberate further on that.

I am not saying for sure that he is innocent by the way....however if you have read all the facts of the case then it is hard to see how the jury found him guilty whilst the friend was innocent.

[Iggy Pope]

Here's an interesting question I'd like answered by one of the "he should never play professional football again" thinkers:

What profession would you deem it appropriate to take up? Or should he never work again?

I'm genuinely interested to know peoples' take on that.

That is an interesting question.
As a society, we should presumably be rehabilitating offenders. If we don't, then we should incarcerate them indefinitely (burden on the state, this) or hang them (cost effective, but not very European).
Can't have it both ways can we? If the released rapist can't continue to work for a living due to the morals and values of the rest of us, then he'll become a burden on the state anyway, scrounging on the social.
Cue further outrage from the already outraged and the Daily Mail and it's letter writers.

I think kicking a ball about is probably the best job for him and I think Sheffield United must too.
Don't think it's much to do with anyone on here though, as we don't pay to watch him, our club doesn't pay him to play and he hasn't been released in our jurisdiction......

[HFC 0-7]

That is an interesting question.
As a society, we should presumably be rehabilitating offenders. If we don't, then we should incarcerate them indefinitely (burden on the state, this) or hang them (cost effective, but not very European).
Can't have it both ways can we? If the released rapist can't continue to work for a living due to the morals and values of the rest of us, then he'll become a burden on the state anyway, scrounging on the social.
Cue further outrage from the already outraged and the Daily Mail and it's letter writers.

I think kicking a ball about is probably the best job for him and I think Sheffield United must too.
Don't think it's much to do with anyone on here though, as we don't pay to watch him, our club doesn't pay him to play and he hasn't been released in our jurisdiction......


There are plenty other jobs out there that wouldn't employ him based on his convictions. Playing for a football club where young fans can idolise players isn't the place for a convicted rapist. Plenty other lines of work, out of the public eye that he can go for. One that requires support of thousands of people shouldn't be one that he is allowed to have.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If Stuart Hall survives his sentence, will we hear him commentating on radio again? No
Will we see Rolf Harris on our televisions? No
Will we see Max Clifford asked for his opinion on anything and everything? No
Evans can join them as a non-entity. Persona non grata to the public. Let him start afresh in his own quiet way, free from public vitriol. Best all round IMO.

[AgentDaleCooper]

He's a convicted rapist. Take your pi$h about 'basically a case she was pissed etc' and shove it up your hole. Disgusting attitude.

wow, way to take one half-a-sentence and give it a completely different meaning :aok:

let's look at the whole sentence again:


also, in this case, there does seem to be some chance that it was basically a case of she was pissed and said yes, then felt (probably, but not definitely, justifiably) that he'd taken advantage of her.

firstly, i'll clarify what i meant - imagine you're on a night out, you're pissed, and a girl, also pissed, says she's up for coming back to yours, you have sex with her, then in the morning she says that she was intoxicated, meaning that it wasn't consensual sex, landing you in prison for 2 1/2 years.

please read this bit - I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW

what i'm saying is that there is a CHANCE that this might be the case, and as such, we have to accept that he's done his time, otherwise what's the point in the justice system?

i'm not just talking about this case - i'm talking about the best course of action in any case like this one, baring in mind that the justice system isn't perfect.

i'm not saying he should be spared any abuse from the terraces.

[lord bunberry]

There are plenty other jobs out there that wouldn't employ him based on his convictions. Playing for a football club where young fans can idolise players isn't the place for a convicted rapist. Plenty other lines of work, out of the public eye that he can go for. One that requires support of thousands of people shouldn't be one that he is allowed to have.

That's not the point though. It's whether we can rehabilitate offenders or not, as unpalatable as it is he has served the punishment that the state deemed fit, by denying him the right to work in his chosen profession would be giving him an added sentence that others wouldn't get. I wouldn't want him playing for us though and I'd imagine most fans of other clubs will feel the same.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Plenty of people have been wrongly convicted before. He maintains his innocence and the appeal courts will deliberate further on that.

I am not saying for sure that he is innocent by the way....however if you have read all the facts of the case then it is hard to see how the jury found him guilty whilst the friend was innocent.

No they won't. His case has been referred to the Criminal Cases Review Commission - that's not an appeal.

Whenever a rape conviction involves a drunk girl there will always be apologists for the rapist. Plenty of people have been wrongly convicted of rape before? Name them. Or have you deliberately used the word "wrongly" rather than "falsely" because you think there's circumstances where having sex with a woman without her consent is ok?

Yes I'm familiar with the facts, nobody involved comes out of it with a great deal of credit, but that doesn't make the girl any less a victim. As the spokesperson from the victims' charity said this week, "It has become clear that many people still consider rape in some contexts and circumstances more 'real', more harmful than others, and believe some rape survivors are therefore more 'worthy' of empathy than others."

[AgentDaleCooper]

If Stuart Hall survives his sentence, will we hear him commentating on radio again? No
Will we see Rolf Harris on our televisions? No
Will we see Max Clifford asked for his opinion on anything and everything? No
Evans can join them as a non-entity. Persona non grata to the public. Let him start afresh in his own quiet way, free from public vitriol. Best all round IMO.

although i can totally see your point, i think a part of the problem is that harris and hall traded on their personalities. i think max clifford will certainly find work, as some sort of 'consultant' or whatever, once he's out, and he'll be in demand because of his skills. they were also all serial offenders, over a long period of time, committing crimes that involved a great degree of manipulation and conspiracy.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's not the point though. It's whether we can rehabilitate offenders or not, as unpalatable as it is he has served the punishment that the state deemed fit, by denying him the right to work in his chosen profession would be giving him an added sentence that others wouldn't get. I wouldn't want him playing for us though and I'd imagine most fans of other clubs will feel the same.

exactly :top marks

[SunshineOnLeith]

imagine you're on a night out, you're pissed, and a girl, also pissed, says she's up for coming back to yours, you have sex with her, then in the morning she says that she was intoxicated, meaning that it wasn't consensual sex, landing you in prison for 2 1/2 years.

please read this bit - I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW

what i'm saying is that there is a CHANCE that this might be the case, and as such, we have to accept that he's done his time, otherwise what's the point in the justice system?

i'm not just talking about this case - i'm talking about the best course of action in any case like this one, baring in mind that the justice system isn't perfect.

i'm not saying he should be spared any abuse from the terraces.

That's not the fact pattern of Ched Evans' case, or the fact pattern of any case that has ever resulted in a rape conviction. You may as well ask how I'd feel if someone walked into a police station and accused me of murdering them.

No victim of rape is ever at fault for their having been raped, and to suggest otherwise is vile.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's not the point though. It's whether we can rehabilitate offenders or not, as unpalatable as it is he has served the punishment that the state deemed fit, by denying him the right to work in his chosen profession would be giving him an added sentence that others wouldn't get. I wouldn't want him playing for us though and I'd imagine most fans of other clubs will feel the same.

There are numerous professions where such a conviction would have destroyed his career. It wouldn't be unique to sport. If he were a teacher, doctor, lawyer, police officer for example, he'd be struck off his professional register. There will be many such examples

[Sir David Gray]

wow, way to take one half-a-sentence and give it a completely different meaning :aok:

let's look at the whole sentence again:



firstly, i'll clarify what i meant - imagine you're on a night out, you're pissed, and a girl, also pissed, says she's up for coming back to yours, you have sex with her, then in the morning she says that she was intoxicated, meaning that it wasn't consensual sex, landing you in prison for 2 1/2 years.

please read this bit - I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW

what i'm saying is that there is a CHANCE that this might be the case, and as such, we have to accept that he's done his time, otherwise what's the point in the justice system?

i'm not just talking about this case - i'm talking about the best course of action in any case like this one, baring in mind that the justice system isn't perfect.

i'm not saying he should be spared any abuse from the terraces.

I'm pretty certain that if those were the facts that were presented before the court during his trial, he would not have ended up with a rape conviction and a five year sentence.

[AgentDaleCooper]

No they won't. His case has been referred to the Criminal Cases Review Commission - that's not an appeal.

Whenever a rape conviction involves a drunk girl there will always be apologists for the rapist. Plenty of people have been wrongly convicted of rape before? Name them. Or have you deliberately used the word "wrongly" rather than "falsely" because you think there's circumstances where having sex with a woman without her consent is ok?

Yes I'm familiar with the facts, nobody involved comes out of it with a great deal of credit, but that doesn't make the girl any less a victim. As the spokesperson from the victims' charity said this week, "It has become clear that many people still consider rape in some contexts and circumstances more 'real', more harmful than others, and believe some rape survivors are therefore more 'worthy' of empathy than others."

ok, so you're seriously saying noone has ever been found guilty of rape when they were innocent. ever. in history.

i'm not apologising for anyone, by the way. what i'm saying is that you can't start doling out punishments over and above those already delivered by the law - if so, why bother with the justice system at all?

[Hibernia&Alba]

ok, so you're seriously saying noone has ever been found guilty of rape when they were innocent. ever. in history.

i'm not apologising for anyone, by the way. what i'm saying is that you can't start doling out punishments over and above those already delivered by the law - if so, why bother with the justice system at all?

But nobody is 'doling out' extra punishments. I imagine it must be difficult for anyone with a rape conviction to gain employment after their release, be they a butcher, baker or candlestick maker.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's not the fact pattern of Ched Evans' case, or the fact pattern of any case that has ever resulted in a rape conviction. You may as well ask how I'd feel if someone walked into a police station and accused me of murdering them.

No victim of rape is ever at fault for their having been raped, and to suggest otherwise is vile.

i'm not, and would never, say that anyone is at fault for being raped, and i agree 100% that to suggest so would be utterly abhorrent.

as far as this case goes, i understand that the girl may have given consent. here's what i don't know - how pissed was evans? if they were both completely **** faced, and she consented, then i would say that the girl wasn't raped, she just had drunken sex. if she was completely blootered but evans wasn't, and knew that she didn't have a clue what was going on, i.e. couldn't genuinely consent, then i would class that rape.

a genuinely difficult point though - what if he didn't realise that she was too blootered to give consent? please, PLEASE don't interpret this as me blaming her, because i'm not. i don't see the value of apportioning blame in such a scenario - it just seems to me to be a grey area.

[AgentDaleCooper]

But nobody is 'doling out' extra punishments. I imagine it must be difficult for anyone with a rape conviction to gain employment after their release, be they a butcher, baker or candlestick maker.

as i understand it, some people are looking for his return to be blocked.

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvq6pH5Rheg

jesus. if it was anything like this, then evans should still be in prison.

[SunshineOnLeith]

ok, so you're seriously saying noone has ever been found guilty of rape when they were innocent. ever. in history.

i'm not apologising for anyone, by the way. what i'm saying is that you can't start doling out punishments over and above those already delivered by the law - if so, why bother with the justice system at all?

Where did I say that? If you're going to make a statement that 'plenty of people have been wrongly convicted of rape', I think it's reasonable to expect more backup to that statement than just a hunch.

[Hibernia&Alba]

as i understand it, some people are looking for his return to be blocked.

I don't think a legal block upon his re-entering football is possible. However, I would hope that no club would employ him, bearing in mind their responsibility to the community and the fanbase they represent. Their reputation would be severely damaged, and it could also hit them in the pocket. Evans would also remain in the public glare, which mightn't be the best thing for him.


I should also add, of course, that Evans' name being constantly discussed in the media wouldn't be fair upon his victim, who would be subjected to constant reminders. It's her right to move on with her life that should be the most important consideration.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I don't think a legal block upon his re-entering football is possible. However, I would hope that no club would employ him, bearing in mind their responsibility to the community and the fanbase they represent. Their reputation would be severely damaged, and it could also hit them in the pocket. Evans would also remain in the public glare, which mightn't be the best thing for him.

tbh, this seems pretty fair.

[judas]

How exactly does one consent to sex? Is it in words or body language?

And is any act undertaken whilst not of sound mind (pished) legally sound? Certainly in the contractual sense, would a signatory that was widely known to have been inebriated at the point of consenting, have a case for having that contract cancelled?

On a separate note, I think anyone taking such a person into their employment, could be painted as a Good Samaritan, or simply a good christian offering redemption.

[SunshineOnLeith]

i'm not, and would never, say that anyone is at fault for being raped, and i agree 100% that to suggest so would be utterly abhorrent.

as far as this case goes, i understand that the girl may have given consent. here's what i don't know - how pissed was evans? if they were both completely **** faced, and she consented, then i would say that the girl wasn't raped, she just had drunken sex. if she was completely blootered but evans wasn't, and knew that she didn't have a clue what was going on, i.e. couldn't genuinely consent, then i would class that rape.

a genuinely difficult point though - what if he didn't realise that she was too blootered to give consent? please, PLEASE don't interpret this as me blaming her, because i'm not. i don't see the value of apportioning blame in such a scenario - it just seems to me to be a grey area.

She consented to sex with, and had sex with, someone else.

She did not consent to sex with Ched Evans.

[Steve20]

It's despicable that anyone would considering signing this guy after what he did. He should not be allowed back in football again.

[Oscar T Grouch]

The good Christian thing to do with rapists? Make them pay the victims father 50 silver pieces, make them marry their victim and never let them divorce.

Let's not mix christian morals into things it always ends up being messier.

Rehabilitation is all fine and well. But he can go work somewhere out of the public adulation that comes with football. We need to remember too this rapist has shown no remorse towards the victim.

[hibeemikey21]

That is an interesting question.
As a society, we should presumably be rehabilitating offenders. If we don't, then we should incarcerate them indefinitely (burden on the state, this) or hang them (cost effective, but not very European).
Can't have it both ways can we? If the released rapist can't continue to work for a living due to the morals and values of the rest of us, then he'll become a burden on the state anyway, scrounging on the social.
Cue further outrage from the already outraged and the Daily Mail and it's letter writers.

I think kicking a ball about is probably the best job for him and I think Sheffield United must too.
Don't think it's much to do with anyone on here though, as we don't pay to watch him, our club doesn't pay him to play and he hasn't been released in our jurisdiction......

That's precisely my take on it.

It's almost like the scenario where you have people calling for the death penalty - would you be happy enough to carry out the execution?

If Ched Evans is no longer allowed to play football but has to do something (god forbid he sponges off the state), then you have to be content to work along side him, or for your daughter/wife etc to do so. Ultimately, someone will, so why not you?

People are too quick to jump on the "he should never play again" bandwagon without thinking it through. They will generally picture him doing one of the so-called "lesser skilled" jobs. Why should people in these lines of work be more tolerable of convicted criminals than the rest?

[lord bunberry]

There are numerous professions where such a conviction would have destroyed his career. It wouldn't be unique to sport. If he were a teacher, doctor, lawyer, police officer for example, he'd be struck off his professional register. There will be many such examples

I know that but being a footballer isn't one of those profesions and until it is then he can't be stopped from playing again. The only way he will be stopped is if fans of the club he eventually signs for turn on him.

[CropleyWasGod]

i'm not, and would never, say that anyone is at fault for being raped, and i agree 100% that to suggest so would be utterly abhorrent.

as far as this case goes, i understand that the girl may have given consent. here's what i don't know - how pissed was evans? if they were both completely **** faced, and she consented, then i would say that the girl wasn't raped, she just had drunken sex. if she was completely blootered but evans wasn't, and knew that she didn't have a clue what was going on, i.e. couldn't genuinely consent, then i would class that rape.

a genuinely difficult point though - what if he didn't realise that she was too blootered to give consent? please, PLEASE don't interpret this as me blaming her, because i'm not. i don't see the value of apportioning blame in such a scenario - it just seems to me to be a grey area.

Not sure what the law is in England, but in Scotland that would constitute rape. Being incapable of giving consent, ie drunk, means that consent hasn't been given. By definition, that's rape.

[LaMotta]

No they won't. His case has been referred to the Criminal Cases Review Commission - that's not an appeal.

Whenever a rape conviction involves a drunk girl there will always be apologists for the rapist. Plenty of people have been wrongly convicted of rape before? Name them. Or have you deliberately used the word "wrongly" rather than "falsely" because you think there's circumstances where having sex with a woman without her consent is ok?

Yes I'm familiar with the facts, nobody involved comes out of it with a great deal of credit, but that doesn't make the girl any less a victim. As the spokesperson from the victims' charity said this week, "It has become clear that many people still consider rape in some contexts and circumstances more 'real', more harmful than others, and believe some rape survivors are therefore more 'worthy' of empathy than others."

With the way that you have wrongly interpreted what I have said it is no surprise that you have also wrongly interpreted the facts of the case.

I said that there were plenty of wrongful convictions. Doesnt have to be a rape conviction to highlight that the courts can get things wrong. Although if you did search for wrongly convicted rapists on google then you will find evidence of this happening in the UK (and beyond).

Of course sex without consent is wrong and would be rape. But there is no evidence in this case that consent wasnt given and no allegation of rape from the young lady! Only evidence that the young lady couldnt remember having sex with either man.
This lack of memory doesnt prove either way what happened....consent may or may not have been given. How could the jury possibly decide one guilty one innocent?

If there is a possibility that consent was given then there is the possibility that Evans could be innocent.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't think he will actually receive a new contract offer at Sheffield.


Good scoring record, banging them in for Sheffield not so long ago. Could get him relatively cheap.

Hilarious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30015701

[Future17]

Hilarious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30015701

How so?

[Pete]

She consented to sex with, and had sex with, someone else.

That's not true.

[McIntosh]

How so?

For me, this young lady's self righteousness and manufactured indignation was pretty nauseating. There is a fundamental flaw in many people's understanding of football - it is not moral, it never has been. People who have committed worst crimes than this man have made their way back into the game and made a living. The young man in question has served his time and is trying to go back to his trade - a footballer. He is not a teacher, doctor, lawyer or a police officer. Footballers in my book have never been paragons of virtue or role models. Right or wrong does not come into it these matters, you need look no further than our friends across the city for moral ambiguity.

[Hibbyradge]

Footballers in my book have never been.......role models.

Really?

You don't think kids aspire to be like the people they see on the pitch?

When I played football as a youngster, we all used to pretend to be famous player. Pat Stanton, Jimmy Johnstone, Denis Law, George Best etc.

Of course footballers are role models.

I wonder if we'd be having this conversation if he'd raped a man.

[Hibbyradge]

How so?

I was being sarcastic about Judas's suggestion, not the video clip.

[Pete]

Really?

You don't think kids aspire to be like the people they see on the pitch?

When I played football as a youngster, we all used to pretend to be famous player. Pat Stanton, Jimmy Johnstone, Denis Law, George Best etc.

Of course footballers are role models.

I wonder if we'd be having this conversation if he'd raped a man.

I agree that youngsters try to be like there idols on the pitch when they're playing.

I doubt that there was a raft of twelve year olds who started womanising and drinking because they liked George Best.

[McIntosh]

Really?

You don't think kids aspire to be like the people they see on the pitch?

When I played football as a youngster, we all used to pretend to be famous player. Pat Stanton, Jimmy Johnstone, Denis Law, George Best etc.

Of course footballers are role models.

If wonder if we'd be having this conversation if he'd raped a man.

If you are going to quote me use the full quote without editing, "Footballers in my book have never been paragons of virtue or role models". As for your selection of "role models", you have cited two alcoholics one with a long history of violence to women. The innocence of childhood, indeed. As peter has said above, there is big difference between childhood heroes and a role model.

[Hibbyradge]

If you are going to quote me use the full quote without editing, "Footballers in my book have never been paragons of virtue or role models". As for your selection of "role models", you have cited two alcoholics one with a long history of violence to women. The innocence of childhood, indeed. As peter has said above, there is big difference between childhood heroes and a role model.

I'll quote anything I want, thanks! :aok:

I'm not sure what difference your entire quote makes anyway. It's not correct.

Many footballers have indeed been paragons of virtue. They certainly are role models.

That aside, are there any crimes for which footballers could be jailed for 5 years, which should preclude them from returning to their privileged career?

What about child sex offences?

Male rape?

Hate crime?

What about corruption or match fixing?

In my opinion, there are certain crimes that, if committed, should stop someone playing professional football.

I have to provide a Disclosure Scotland certificate every year. Mine is clean, but if it had Rape listed as an offence I'd committed, I wouldn't expect anyone to give me work.

[Hibrandenburg]

Good scoring record, banging them in for Sheffield not so long ago.

A most unfortunate turn of phrase.

[3pm]

I think Sheff Utd will have to back down here.

[Future17]

I have to provide a Disclosure Scotland certificate every year. Mine is clean, but if it had Rape listed as an offence I'd committed, I wouldn't expect anyone to give me work.

So how would you pay for food, housing etc?

[Hibbyradge]

So how would you pay for food, housing etc?

I'd try to find a job that didn't require a Disclosure Scotland certificate.

How do child sex offenders feed themselves after they've been released?

[Future17]

I'd try to find a job that didn't require a Disclosure Scotland certificate.

How do child sex offenders feed themselves after they've been released?

Ah, I misunderstood what you meant...but you did say you wouldn't expect [I]anyone[I] to give you work.

You really need to make your posts clearer...:wink:

[McIntosh]

I'll quote anything I want, thanks! :aok:

I'm not sure what difference your entire quote makes anyway. It's not correct.

Many footballers have indeed been paragons of virtue. They certainly are role models.

That aside, are there any crimes for which footballers could be jailed for 5 years, which should preclude them from returning to their privileged career?

What about child sex offences?

Male rape?

Hate crime?

What about corruption or match fixing?

In my opinion, there are certain crimes that, if committed, should stop someone playing professional football.

I have to provide a Disclosure Scotland certificate every year. Mine is clean, but if it had Rape listed as an offence I'd committed, I wouldn't expect anyone to give me work.

You are a a luckier man that me - I have never met any footballer who was a paragon of virtue. It would be wonderful to hear this saint's name. As for crimes, I let the criminal justice system decide, If someone is not fit to reenter society it is that system that punishes and that is how it should be. Please note, football has had murders play professionally upon their release. Quite successfully in fact. As I said, football is not moral, it never has been and as has been posted by many on the board this young man will sooner or later find a club willing to take a risk on him.

[SunshineOnLeith]

With the way that you have wrongly interpreted what I have said it is no surprise that you have also wrongly interpreted the facts of the case.

I said that there were plenty of wrongful convictions. Doesnt have to be a rape conviction to highlight that the courts can get things wrong. Although if you did search for wrongly convicted rapists on google then you will find evidence of this happening in the UK (and beyond).

Of course sex without consent is wrong and would be rape. But there is no evidence in this case that consent wasnt given and no allegation of rape from the young lady! Only evidence that the young lady couldnt remember having sex with either man.
This lack of memory doesnt prove either way what happened....consent may or may not have been given. How could the jury possibly decide one guilty one innocent?

If there is a possibility that consent was given then there is the possibility that Evans could be innocent.

Did the jury wrongly interpret the facts of the case as well? Ched Evans is a rapist. He raped that girl. These are the facts, proven in law.

If the jury had considered there to be any reasonable doubt, they would have been duty bound to acquit.

[LaMotta]

Did the jury wrongly interpret the facts of the case as well? Ched Evans is a rapist. He raped that girl. These are the facts, proven in law.

If the jury had considered there to be any reasonable doubt, they would have been duty bound to acquit.

Have you sat on a High court jury case? If you have you will know that Jury's are full of random members of the public some of who want to get home as quickly as possible and some of whom quite frankly dont have the intelligence and/or life experience necessary to make decisions of such gravity.

A jury found the Guildford four guilty so they must have done it, right?

[Beefster]

Have you sat on a High court jury case? If you have you will know that Jury's are full of random members of the public some of who want to get home as quickly as possible and some of whom quite frankly dont have the intelligence and/or life experience necessary to make decisions of such gravity.

A jury found the Guildford four guilty so they must have done it, right?

What's the proportion of correct decisions by juries to those they get wrong?

[Steve-O]

I'd try to find a job that didn't require a Disclosure Scotland certificate.

How do child sex offenders feed themselves after they've been released?

Well, Evans probably doesn't need a Disclosure Scotland certificate...

As for CSOs, they're likely to end up on benefits as nobody will give them a job, so we all pay in the end.

I'd rather Sheff Utd paid Evans' wages than the taxpayer.

He's out, he's done the time required, and IMO should be allowed to continue in his chosen profession.

[Steve-O]

What's the proportion of correct decisions by juries to those they get wrong?

Surely that is impossible to answer?

[Steve-O]

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

I haven't read these yet, but reading these established facts may be an idea, rather than some of the speculation that's been on here.

[LaMotta]

What's the proportion of correct decisions by juries to those they get wrong?

Im not sure research for that in the UK is available. Research in Usa has suggested about 1 in 8 is wrong.

I am not saying he is innocent or guilty I am saying there appears to be the possibility that he could be innocent.

The fact that a jury can get things wrong, whether that be 1 in 4 times, 1 in 8 or even 1 in 1000 means that there is the possibillity in a case like this one where a verdict is delivered on something that might have happened, that he could be innocent.

[Steve-O]

There was an interesting article in the NZ news the other day with former jury members anonymously talking about cases they sat on and what other jury members were like.

The basic conclusion of it all was if you're innocent you're better off going for a Judge-only trial (as you can do here), and if you're guilty, you're better off going for a jury...

[Steve-O]

http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10688537/Jury-service-The-verdict

Here's the link. Suspect the UK is not too dissimilar
.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Three patrons of Sheffield United have resigned in protest, due to the decision to allow Evans to train there, and there is talk of several sponsors threatening to cut ties with the club.

[Beefster]

He's out, he's done the time required, and IMO should be allowed to continue in his chosen profession.

What about teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen (and more) found guilty of rape?

[McIntosh]

What about teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen (and more) found guilty of rape?

To my knowledge footballers do not have responsibility for adults or children. Footballers are not the same as the above listed professions. Their job is to play football like a fickle is to lay bricks.

[Steve-O]

What about teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen (and more) found guilty of rape?

Those professions have policies in place for various reasons.

I'm not buying the "kids idolise these guys" stuff for football. You're not giving children much credit if you think they'll instantly believe rape is fine because some footballer did it. Believe it or not, kids can also read and watch the news and may even be aware of all this outcry over it.

[Hibbyradge]

What if it was male rape?

Or a child sex crime?

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

I haven't read these yet, but reading these established facts may be an idea, rather than some of the speculation that's been on here.

Reading that you can see how tough it is for a jury to reach a verdict, it's basically strength of opinion as some of the expert evidence seems almost contradictory.

I was a defence witness is a rape trial in Aberdeen a few years ago. I had been walking home from a party and had cut accross a wooded area behind a Morrison car park, on the way I nipped off the path to go for a pee (it was about 4am in the morning). My nate who kept walking heard a scream and a girl shouting she was being raped. I was repeatedly questioned by the defence as to how far I had strayed off the path, how long I was off the path, did I rejoin in a straight line or walk towards the crime scene etc etc. They were basically trying to argue that because I didn't hear anything there was no rape and the girl merely panicked when my mate approached because she was embarassed about being caught having sex in public.

In the end the case was found that classic Scottish verdict Not Proven. The girl involved was a prostitute and had agreed to sex with the man. He didn't have money and had suggested they cut accross the path to get to a cash machine at Morrisons. On the way his story was she agreed to sex there for payment after, her story was he raped her. The jury were basically asked to decide who was telling the truth. They both admitted sexual contact had taken place, she admitted she was a prostitute and had agreed to sex initially, he said she agreed to sex at that particular moment, she said she withdrew consent at that point.

[Pete]

What if it was male rape?

Or a child sex crime?

Then his employment options would be extremely limited. Hearts or nothing.

[Beefster]

Those professions have policies in place for various reasons.

I'm not buying the "kids idolise these guys" stuff for football. You're not giving children much credit if you think they'll instantly believe rape is fine because some footballer did it. Believe it or not, kids can also read and watch the news and may even be aware of all this outcry over it.

I'm fairly sure that a lot of professions will have policies about convictions. I wouldn't be working for my employer if I had ever been found guilty of rape.

I'm not sure where the kids stuff came from. Either way, I don't have to 'buy' the "kids idolise these guys" - my six year old thinks Hibs players are heroes.

[McIntosh]

Those professions have policies in place for various reasons.

I'm not buying the "kids idolise these guys" stuff for football. You're not giving children much credit if you think they'll instantly believe rape is fine because some footballer did it. Believe it or not, kids can also read and watch the news and may even be aware of all this outcry over it.
:top marks

[Hibernia&Alba]

Jessica Ennis has told Sheffield United to re-name the stand bearing her name if they re-employ Evans.

[Sir David Gray]

To my knowledge footballers do not have responsibility for adults or children. Footballers are not the same as the above listed professions. Their job is to play football like a fickle is to lay bricks.

Most football clubs these days send their players to community events involving children, they send them into schools and they send them to children's hospitals at Christmas etc.

None of that's possible if you have a rape conviction as hospitals and schools etc will require anyone who is a visitor and will have contact with the children to be vetted beforehand. If you are a registered sex offender, you won't be allowed access.

[Stranraer]

I find the events of that night highly questionable. The woman involved was supposed to be extremely drunk but in the CCTV she is seen walking in and out of the hotel and looks sober to me.

However, I can understand the latest protest from Jessica Ennis. Found guilty so that's that.

[McIntosh]

Most football clubs these days send their players to community events involving children, they send them into schools and they send them to children's hospitals at Christmas etc.

None of that's possible if you have a rape conviction as hospitals and schools etc will require anyone who is a visitor and will have contact with the children to be vetted beforehand. If you are a registered sex offender, you won't be allowed access.

Hibs or any other Scottish football club do not ask any of the players to complete a disclosure certificate prior to them taking up employment. That is a fact. Hospitals do not ask for them, when they ask players to visit. If I was a player and someone asked me to complete one I would not even entertain it. Remembering these visits are on a voluntary basis.

[Sir David Gray]

Hibs or any other Scottish football club do not ask any of the players to complete a disclosure certificate prior to them taking up employment. That is a fact. Hospitals do not ask for them, when they ask players to visit. If I was a player and someone asked me to complete one I would not even entertain it. Remembering these visits are on a voluntary basis.

Are you sure?

I would be stunned if that was the case following on from the revelations about Jimmy Savile.

[McIntosh]

Are you sure?

I would be stunned if that was the case following on from the revelations about Jimmy Savile.

Be stunned, visitors are not asked to provide disclosure certificates - employees are. Only employees. Visitors never and footballers are just merely invited visitors.

[Steve-O]

What if it was male rape?

Or a child sex crime?

It wasn't though.

[Steve-O]

I'm fairly sure that a lot of professions will have policies about convictions. I wouldn't be working for my employer if I had ever been found guilty of rape.

I'm not sure where the kids stuff came from. Either way, I don't have to 'buy' the "kids idolise these guys" - my six year old thinks Hibs players are heroes.

Well if Sheff Utd / football doesn't have such a policy, who are we to say he shouldn't play for them? Sorry, I'm just not a fan of the theory that public outrage should always win the day. The majority of the public are utterly narrow minded, misinformed and generally idiotic when it comes to discussing law and order. I see it daily. Not aiming that at you btw.

Your child may think they are footballing heroes, but I still don't really get your point. Evans could still be a 'hero' in a football context. I'm sure there have been a huge number of footballers who were viewed in such a light on the park but were a total erse off it, criminally or otherwise.

Are you trying to tell me that your child would think rape was ok if Evans played for Hibs, for example?

[Steve-O]

Are you sure?

I would be stunned if that was the case following on from the revelations about Jimmy Savile.

Savile was wandering round these places at all hours. Footballers would be supervised and there for a short time.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Well if Sheff Utd / football doesn't have such a policy, who are we to say he shouldn't play for them? Sorry, I'm just not a fan of the theory that public outrage should always win the day. The majority of the public are utterly narrow minded, misinformed and generally idiotic when it comes to discussing law and order. I see it daily. Not aiming that at you btw.

Your child may think they are footballing heroes, but I still don't really get your point. Evans could still be a 'hero' in a football context. I'm sure there have been a huge number of footballers who were viewed in such a light on the park but were a total erse off it, criminally or otherwise.

Are you trying to tell me that your child would think rape was ok if Evans played for Hibs, for example?

This I agree with, yet on the other side of the coin, crimes against women, violent or sexual in nature, have only started to be taken seriously in recent decades. Crimes such as domestic violence and rape were historically downplayed by the police and wider society. In effect women were second class citizens when it came to justice, and, sad to say, there is still work to be done amongst some men who remain "utterly narrow minded, misinformed and generally idiotic when it comes to discussing law and order" in relation to crimes against women. For a football club - an institution that represents a community - to allow somebody just released from prison, who shows no remorse for what he's done, straight back into a high profile public role would to me demonstrate we remain in the dark ages on this, and it would be an insult to the community. A football club isn't just a business, they have social responsibilities IMO. Must his victim be subjected to constant reminders of this low life via his public role? Why should fans and staff feel they should leave the club, rather than Evans? He should be allowed to get on with is life certainly, but more importantly his victim must be allowed to get on with her life, which must surely be made more difficult whilst Evans remains in the public eye. Has she even been asked what she thinks?

[LaMotta]

This I agree with, yet on the other side of the coin, crimes against women, violent or sexual in nature, have only started to be taken seriously in recent decades. Crimes such as domestic violence and rape were historically downplayed by the police and wider society. In effect women were second class citizens when it came to justice, and, sad to say, there is still work to be done amongst some men who remain "utterly narrow minded, misinformed and generally idiotic when it comes to discussing law and order" in relation to crimes against women. For a football club - an institution that represents a community - to allow somebody just released from prison, who shows no remorse for what he's done, straight back into a high profile public role would to me demonstrate we remain in the dark ages on this, and it would be an insult to the community. A football club isn't just a business, they have social responsibilities IMO. Must his victim be subjected to constant reminders of this low life via his public role? Why should fans and staff feel they should leave the club, rather than Evans? He should be allowed to get on with is life certainly, but more importantly his victim must be allowed to get on with her life, which must surely be made more difficult whilst Evans remains in the public eye. Has she even been asked what she thinks?

I agree with much of what you say however surely you are being a bit idiotic if you expect a man who maintains innocence to show remorse.

I really don't understand how so many people have failed to get this point!

[Hibbyradge]

It wasn't though.

It's interesting that I can't get an answer to my question.

Maybe if I rephrase it...

If a footballer was to be convicted and jailed for 5 years for male rape should they be able to resume their playing career as normal when they were released after 30 months?

If a player was to be convicted of sexual crimes against children, should they be free to resume their career after they were released after 2 and a half years?

Presumably they will both have "paid their dues" to society.

[Hibbyradge]

I agree with much of what you say however surely you are being a bit idiotic if you expect a man who maintains innocence to show remorse.

I really don't understand how so many people have failed to get this point!

I agree, for him to show remorse would undermine his claims of innocence.

A cynic might suggest that his decision to appeal his sentence has helped cloud the issue, thus gaining him support in his quest to resume his career as a professional footballer.

Remember, his original application to appeal was thrown out in 2012.

However, I wouldn't want a convicted rapist to play for Hibs under any circumstances. I wouldn't want to associate with one socially and, if I found out that somehow someone working beside me was a rapist, I'd ask for a move.

[McIntosh]

It's interesting that I can't get an answer to my question.

Maybe if I rephrase it...

If a footballer was to be convicted and jailed for 5 years for male rape should they be able to resume their playing career as normal when they were released after 30 months?

If a player was to be convicted of sexual crimes against children, should they be free to resume their career after they were released after 2 and a half years?

Presumably they will both have "paid their dues" to society.

The fact, the fact is that players have been found guilty of more serious offences and recommenced their career. That is the answer that you seem to be ignoring.

[Hibbyradge]

The fact, the fact is that players have been found guilty of more serious offences and recommenced their career. That is the answer that you seem to be ignoring.

Two wrongs rights don't make a right.

If there have been mistakes made like that in the past, I would hope that we can learn from them and ensure they're not repeated.

There is no room for rapists in football.

[Steve-O]

It's interesting that I can't get an answer to my question.

Maybe if I rephrase it...

If a footballer was to be convicted and jailed for 5 years for male rape should they be able to resume their playing career as normal when they were released after 30 months?

If a player was to be convicted of sexual crimes against children, should they be free to resume their career after they were released after 2 and a half years?

Presumably they will both have "paid their dues" to society.

If it's me you're asking, then my answer is yes.

I doubt you'd get the same answer from many others however.

[Steve-O]

Two wrongs rights don't make a right.

If there have been mistakes made like that in the past, I would hope that we can learn from them and ensure they're not repeated.

There is no room for rapists in football.

I would hazard a guess that here have been MANY instances like this amongst footballers that have not resulted in a rape conviction.

There will be 'rapists' in football right now.

[Hibbyradge]

I would hazard a guess that here have been MANY instances like this amongst footballers that have not resulted in a rape conviction.

There will be 'rapists' in football right now.

Undoubtedly. There will be pedophiles too.

That's ok with you?

[Hibbyradge]

If it's me you're asking, then my answer is yes.



It was a general question to every/anyone, but thanks for your answer. You're more tolerant and forgiving than me and most.




I doubt you'd get the same answer from many others however.

Indeed I would not. There are plenty people who would execute child molesters or throw away the key etc.

Gay men don't fare much better with some.

If Evans had been jailed for raping a man while he was passed out in someone else's bed, this thread would not even exist.

If he had been found with child porn on his computer, this thread would not exist.

The fact that it was a woman asleep in someone else's bed makes it "understandable" for some.

[McIntosh]

Undoubtedly. There will be pedophiles too.

That's ok with you?

Yes there are and some have played for us. In the 1980s there were two first team Hibs players who were having sexual relations with the same young lady who I personally knew. she was 15. The players as I recollect were in the very early 20s. There will be many posters here who can tell you very similar stories.

Life my friend is complex, it is not always black or white and this case in particular falls into this category.

[Hibbyradge]

Yes there are and some have played for us. In the 1980s there were two first team Hibs players who were having sexual relations with the same young lady who I personally knew. she was 15. The players as I recollect were in the very early 20s. There will be many posters here who can tell you very similar stories.

Life my friend is complex, it is not always black or white and this case in particular falls into this category.

Were they caught and convicted? I don't remember anything about that at the time. I knew a girl who told me stuff about a particular Hibs player and I wondered how old she'd been, but I didn't enquire further.

Graeme Rix was pilloried by most people on here for having consensual sex with a 15 year old who looked and acted a lot older. She never made a complaint. Even the jambo Russian hat-kickers were protesting at his appointment, iirc.

He is now coaching a team in the Wessex League, well out of the limelight.


Life my friend is complex, it is not always black or white and this case in particular falls into this category.



Of course, I agree, life is complicated, but when it comes to crime, fortunately we have the criminal justice system to make these difficult decisions for us.

You've argued that football isn't moral. I don't know of any businesses which are particularly moral, but that shouldn't mean we strive to make then better.

Rodgering a woman who your mate pulled after she's fallen unconscious is reprehensible. The fact that his pals tried to video it happening just adds to the depravity.

Only a sleazebag would do that and what does it say about his views about women?

Imagine it was your daughter he'd treated like that.

Football is too important to many and too high profile for Evans to walk back into his job.

[Future17]

Rodgering a woman who your mate pulled after she's fallen unconscious is reprehensible.

There's been a few times on this thread when you've misrepresented the facts of this particular case and suggested Evans did something which he wasn't even accused of in testimony. At the same time, you've used those misrepresentations to pose scenarios along the lines of "Imagine it was your daughter...".

Can I suggest that you consider imagining how you'd feel if your son/brother/wife/sister/daughter had been convicted of an offence, was trying to move on with their life, but had people on the internet essentially telling lies about them?

I'm not disputing for a moment that there's a valid discussion/argument surrounding this whole situation but, for me, you're undermining the points you're putting forward by making stuff up which didn't happen.

[hibsbollah]

Yes there are and some have played for us. In the 1980s there were two first team Hibs players who were having sexual relations with the same young lady who I personally knew. she was 15. The players as I recollect were in the very early 20s. There will be many posters here who can tell you very similar stories.

Life my friend is complex, it is not always black or white and this case in particular falls into this category.

Life is complex but rape isn't. Its a crime. When I was growing up in the 80s there was a high profile campaign 'no excuse' or something? campaigning against violence against women. In many respects I think we have gone backwards in the last twenty thirty years in this regard, especially when considering how other attitudes (towards race for example)have changed. 'Its not always black and white' is a peculiar, almost meaningless statement which often serves to muddy waters which should be fairly clear. I find it profoundly depressing.