Ched Evans

[hibsbollah]

At the same time, you've used those misrepresentations to pose scenarios along the lines of "Imagine it was your daughter...".


Imagining a victim as a mother sister or daughter is a very valid device for radge to make imo. Humanising people is always a good idea.

[Hibbyradge]

There's been a few times on this thread when you've misrepresented the facts of this particular case and suggested Evans did something which he wasn't even accused of in testimony. At the same time, you've used those misrepresentations to pose scenarios along the lines of "Imagine it was your daughter...".

Can I suggest that you consider imagining how you'd feel if your son/brother/wife/sister/daughter had been convicted of an offence, was trying to move on with their life, but had people on the internet essentially telling lies about them?

I'm not disputing for a moment that there's a valid discussion/argument surrounding this whole situation but, for me, you're undermining the points you're putting forward by making stuff up which didn't happen.

I certainly wouldn't want to tell lies about anyone.

Like everyone else, I only know what I read on the internet or hear/see on the news;


Evans was jailed in 2012 for raping a 19 year old woman. The woman had gone back to a north Wales hotel with Clayton McDonald, a friend of Evans and fellow footballer. At the time she was drunk, so drunk that she could barely stand. McDonald texted Evans to tell him that he had ‘got a bird’ and Evans joined them at the hotel. After McDonald had sex with the incapacitated teenager Evans also took advantage of her vulnerable state and had non-consensual sex with her while other friends of Evans attempted to film the act through the window of the ground floor hotel room. The footballers left hours before she regained consciousness; Evans via the fire exit.

Both men were subsequently charged with rape. McDonald was acquitted, presumably the jury reasoned that agreeing to go to his hotel room was some form of consent, despite the fact that she was not in control of her faculties. Evans was convicted of rape and sentenced to a 5 year prison sentence.

During his trial the jury heard that Evans told police:

“We could have had any girl we wanted in that nightclub. We were drinking, having fun there. It’s not uncommon we pick up girls ….. Clayton’s an attractive guy. We are footballers, that’s how it is. Footballers are rich, they have got money, that’s what the girls like.”

https://www.westhamtillidie.com/posts/2014/10/17/crime-and-punishment-should-a-convicted-rapist-be-allowed-to-resume-his-career-as-a-professional-footballer

[McIntosh]

Were they caught and convicted?

Of course, I agree, life is complicated, but when it comes to crime, fortunately we have the criminal justice system to make these difficult decisions for us.

You've argued that football isn't moral. I don't know of any businesses which are particularly moral, but that shouldn't mean we strive to make then better.

No they were not, both are now very respected former players. The woman as she is now, does not considers herself aa a victim. On many levels she wasn't, they were both like lambs to the slaughter.

Football was was never truly moral but the immorality was always hidden. Never in public - never overtly. There was historically pronounced accepted codes of behaviour - things were frowned upon. However, we live in an age where young people have been commodified and sexualised in equal measure. I actually consider all the parties involved in this incident to be victims at one level or another. A society where it seems many have lost respect for each other and the only prioritisation Is individual need and individual gratification.

[McIntosh]

Life is complex but rape isn't. Its a crime. When I was growing up in the 80s there was a high profile campaign 'no excuse' or something? campaigning against violence against women. In many respects I think we have gone backwards in the last twenty thirty years in this regard, especially when considering how other attitudes (towards race for example)have changed. 'Its not always black and white' is a peculiar, almost meaningless statement which often serves to muddy waters which should be fairly clear. I find it profoundly depressing.

I may not have made this post clear. You will probably see this from my later post. I agree what is happening with our wider society is very, very depressing, particularly the commodification and overt sexualisation of young people. I don't often listen to contemporary music but when I hear women described as 'bitches' and 'hoes' I despair.

[HappyAsHellas]

Noticed on change.org that one of the clubs sponsors are going to pull out if Evans is re signed. They are trying to get people to put pressure on the main shirt sponsor, Adidas, to do the same thing. I'm not sure how I feel about this as it seems a lot of people can register a complaint without ever knowing the details of what happened, as has been shown on this thread.
would I want him at Hibs? would I &%@$!

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/14/swedish-social-experiment-shows-people-ignoring-domestic-abuse-in-a-lift

Not directly related, but not unrelated either. I hope I would be the one out of 53.

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/14/swedish-social-experiment-shows-people-ignoring-domestic-abuse-in-a-lift

Not directly related, but not unrelated either. I hope I would be the one out of 53.

It's a tough one.

I intervened in an assault of a woman by a man about 6 years ago, unfortunately the guy was a proper nutter and I still have a 2 inch scar on my chin to prove it. If it happened again I'd definitely be a lot more inclined to think of my own safety and walk away a bit and then call the Police if there wasn't an imminent danger to the persons life. I accept that soumds very selfish.

I wonder how soon after exiting the lift the people were told it was an experiment as is it beyond the realms of possibility to think a fee may well have called the Police after leaving the lift?

[hibsbollah]

It's a tough one.

I intervened in an assault of a woman by a man about 6 years ago, unfortunately the guy was a proper nutter and I still have a 2 inch scar on my chin to prove it. If it happened again I'd definitely be a lot more inclined to think of my own safety and walk away a bit and then call the Police if there wasn't an imminent danger to the persons life. I accept that soumds very selfish.

I wonder how soon after exiting the lift the people were told it was an experiment as is it beyond the realms of possibility to think a fee may well have called the Police after leaving the lift?

And here was me thinking your pugilistic skills made you safe from a crafty uppercut:wink:

Your interpretation (that the passers by were waiting to leave the lift to call the police) is certainly the more optimistic one. I just worry that society has become desensitised to violence. Or maybe we just give less of a **** than we used to.

[Sir David Gray]

I sometimes wonder about human nature.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-30057936

[LaMotta]

And here was me thinking your pugilistic skills made you safe from a crafty uppercut:wink:

Your interpretation (that the passers by were waiting to leave the lift to call the police) is certainly the more optimistic one. I just worry that society has become desensitised to violence. Or maybe we just give less of a **** than we used to.

Here is another interesting video of a similar nature:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM

[LaMotta]

I certainly wouldn't want to tell lies about anyone.

Like everyone else, I only know what I read on the internet or hear/see on the news;


Evans was jailed in 2012 for raping a 19 year old woman. The woman had gone back to a north Wales hotel with Clayton McDonald, a friend of Evans and fellow footballer. At the time she was drunk, so drunk that she could barely stand. McDonald texted Evans to tell him that he had ‘got a bird’ and Evans joined them at the hotel. After McDonald had sex with the incapacitated teenager Evans also took advantage of her vulnerable state and had non-consensual sex with her while other friends of Evans attempted to film the act through the window of the ground floor hotel room. The footballers left hours before she regained consciousness; Evans via the fire exit.

Both men were subsequently charged with rape. McDonald was acquitted, presumably the jury reasoned that agreeing to go to his hotel room was some form of consent, despite the fact that she was not in control of her faculties. Evans was convicted of rape and sentenced to a 5 year prison sentence.

During his trial the jury heard that Evans told police:

“We could have had any girl we wanted in that nightclub. We were drinking, having fun there. It’s not uncommon we pick up girls ….. Clayton’s an attractive guy. We are footballers, that’s how it is. Footballers are rich, they have got money, that’s what the girls like.”

https://www.westhamtillidie.com/posts/2014/10/17/crime-and-punishment-should-a-convicted-rapist-be-allowed-to-resume-his-career-as-a-professional-footballer


Therein lies one of the problems with trying to figure out the truth in cases like this. For Example - the blog you have quoted from above states that " After McDonald had sex with the incapacitated teenager Evans also took advantage of her vulnerable state and had non-consensual sex with her..."

This is not fact though as there was no evidence that she was incapacitated and no evidence that the sex was non consensual. More-so if the above was fact then the Jury should have easily found both men guilty.

It is possible that the above could have happened, equally it is possible that she was able to give consent and actually did so. In Scotland a verdict of Not Proven would surely have been delivered, given that neither scenario could actually be proven, similar to Pretty Boy's witness story above.

Here is a summary of the case from crimeline which also includes the full transcript from court:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[Hibernia&Alba]

I agree with much of what you say however surely you are being a bit idiotic if you expect a man who maintains innocence to show remorse.

I really don't understand how so many people have failed to get this point!

Point taken re remorse, though I was thinking more of the disgraceful PR video he made, in which he didn't even mention the victim and her suffering but only said how sorry he was for 'cheating' on his girlfriend. Actually, Ched, you don't get jail time for infidelity. Incredible conceit from the guy.

The repots of Jessica Ennis receiving Twitter abuse for the stand she has taken are appalling. Those idiots aren't right in the head.

[Hibbyradge]

Therein lies one of the problems with trying to figure out the truth in cases like this. For Example - the blog you have quoted from above states that " After McDonald had sex with the incapacitated teenager Evans also took advantage of her vulnerable state and had non-consensual sex with her..."

This is not fact though as there was no evidence that she was incapacitated and no evidence that the sex was non consensual. More-so if the above was fact then the Jury should have easily found both men guilty.

It is possible that the above could have happened, equally it is possible that she was able to give consent and actually did so. In Scotland a verdict of Not Proven would surely have been delivered, given that neither scenario could actually be proven, similar to Pretty Boy's witness story above.

Here is a summary of the case from crimeline which also includes the full transcript from court:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

That's not the case. It's the application to appeal.

Here's the BBC report from the sentencing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

[LaMotta]

That's not the case. It's the application to appeal.

Here's the BBC report from the sentencing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

Apologies HR you are right that is appeal application. However the facts remain the same and it doesnt change the accuracy of my previous paragraphs.

[Sir David Gray]

Sheffield United retract their decision to allow Ched Evans the use of their training facilities.

[Hibbyradge]

Sheffield United retract their decision to allow Ched Evans the use of their training facilities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30054475

[Scouse Hibee]

Sheffield United retract their decision to allow Ched Evans the use of their training facilities.

After the horse has bolted.

[Hibbyradge]

After the horse has bolted.

Better late than never.

Much better, in this case.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The club said reaction to their initial decision "has been at an intensity that could not have been anticipated".

The above is taken from the link to the BBC site. WTF did they expect would happen? :rolleyes:

[Pete]

WTF did they expect would happen? :rolleyes:

They should have known. It doesn't matter if people know the full facts or the subject has absolutely nothing to do with them, once the internet gets angry and the snowball starts rolling then their outrage must be felt.

Politicians sticking their oar in and z list celebrities being offended so that their names are circulated are par for the course but the fact that the club has 150,000 fans must have come as a shock.

[lord bunberry]

They should have known. It doesn't matter if people know the full facts or the subject has absolutely nothing to do with them, once the internet gets angry and the snowball starts rolling then their outrage must be felt.

Politicians sticking their oar in and z list celebrities being offended so that their names are circulated are par for the course but the fact that the club has 150,000 fans must have come as a shock.
Big teams have 400,000

[Beefster]

They should have known. It doesn't matter if people know the full facts or the subject has absolutely nothing to do with them, once the internet gets angry and the snowball starts rolling then their outrage must be felt.

Politicians sticking their oar in and z list celebrities being offended so that their names are circulated are par for the course but the fact that the club has 150,000 fans must have come as a shock.

Did you feel the same about the furore over Graham Rix pitching up at Hearts?

[Pete]

Did you feel the same about the furore over Graham Rix pitching up at Hearts?

Nope.

[LaMotta]

They should have known. It doesn't matter if people know the full facts or the subject has absolutely nothing to do with them, once the internet gets angry and the snowball starts rolling then their outrage must be felt.

Politicians sticking their oar in and z list celebrities being offended so that their names are circulated are par for the course but the fact that the club has 150,000 fans must have come as a shock.

Sums the whole situation up quite accurately imo.

[judas]

Scandalous. A young man sentenced twice.

So many hypocrites. I don't think the UK can claim to be a Christian country anymore. Redemption it would appear, is merely a word.

Why don't we just hang the boy?

[Hibbyradge]

Scandalous. A young man sentenced twice.

So many hypocrites. I don't think the UK can claim to be a Christian country anymore. Redemption it would appear, is merely a word.

Why don't we just hang the boy?

I'll tell you something that's scandalous.

The woman Evans raped has had to change her identity, twice, because of the abuse she was receiving for having the audacity to complain abut being raped.

Maybe we should do what some people do in Pakistan and murder the rape victim.

[Cocaine&Caviar]

Sheff Utd withdrawn their offer of training facilities. We're short of strikers?

Thoughts?

[surreyhibbie]

Sheff Utd withdrawn their offer of training facilities. We're short of strikers?

Thoughts?

No thanks. More suited to the Yams.

[3pm]

Thoughts?

You're steamin.

[Beefster]

Nope.

Why not?

[leither17]

Sheff Utd withdrawn their offer of training facilities. We're short of strikers?

Thoughts?

Too much coke and cav for you last night?

[Libby Hibby]

Sniff sniff...No thanks, would be more suited down Gorgie way

[Allant1981]

I'll tell you something that's scandalous.

The woman Evans raped has had to change her identity, twice, because of the abuse she was receiving for having the audacity to complain abut being raped.

Maybe we should do what some people do in Pakistan and murder the rape victim.

What he done was wrong but if she had kept her mouth shut and not been bragging about how much money she was going to get then no one would even know who she was

[lyonhibs]

Not in a million, nay billion years.

[7 Hills]

Don't be silly.

[Pretty Boy]

This has been done to death.

Moved and merged.

[hibbiedon]

No thanks, we must have standards our players also meet the mascots and other youngsters so I'm not sure if a disclosure or PVG is required in order to do this. Just out of interest do our standards apply to all ex offenders such as drugs,drink driving, violence or theft

[Pete]

Why not?

Because there was nothing like the level of furore.

[Pete]

Thoughts?

I think he'll have to move abroad.

[Pete]

What??????????????????

He's referring to her tweets about "winning big", taking people on holiday and buying them cars with her inevitable payout. They unsurprisingly attracted attention.

[Hibbyradge]

He's referring to her tweets about "winning big", taking people on holiday and buying them cars with her inevitable payout. They unsurprisingly attracted attention.

I see. I'll delete the comment about the post being most disgusting I've seen then, although her treatment by trolls is still truly sickening.

Her tweets may have been ill advised, but she has done nothing wrong. They certainly do not indicate that she wasn't raped.

Maybe they were a result of an attempt by her pals to cheer her up and look on the bright side. Maybe she was just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I have no idea how old rape victims deal with their ordeal, never mind 19 year olds.

If someone close to me was raped, I'd want justice and I'd want them to pay. Given that it's illegal to do to them what I'd prefer, maybe I'd want to take them for every penny I could. Maybe I'd brag about it to further punish the rapist. Maybe. I hope I'm never in the position to find out.

I don't suppose there's much more to be said about this, just now. We'll see what happens to Evans' appeal and his footballing future in due course.

[Brizo]

Some strong comments on here I have no strong opinion either way but surely ex-offenders are still part of the community? And if they are they deserve an opportunity to be rehabilitated and work their way back in to the community? If that is not the case perhaps we should bulid LARGE facilities and lock away all offenders forever? Or is it okay for offenders to be rehabilitated in some way so long as it is far away and they are isolated from the community?

As I say I dont have the answer and no strong opinion on this case as I know none of the facts but if it is not about rehabilitation and 2nd chances then what do ex-offenders do when they are released hide?

For there to be rehabilitation there has to be some form of remorse, regret and acceptance of the effect their crime has had on the victim. This character has shown none and its compounded by his supporters who continue to wage a highly distasteful "campaign" which concentrates on rubbishing the victim and anyone connected to her.

It wont happen, but if he came anywhere near Hibs I wouldn't be anywhere near Hibs.

[Keith_M]

Sheff Utd withdrawn their offer of training facilities. We're short of strikers?

Thoughts?


My thoughts remain the same: he's a convicted rapist and I want him no where near my Club.

[Allant1981]

I see. I'll delete the comment about the post being most disgusting I've seen then, although her treatment by trolls is still truly sickening.

Her tweets may have been ill advised, but she has done nothing wrong. They certainly do not indicate that she wasn't raped.

Maybe they were a result of an attempt by her pals to cheer her up and look on the bright side. Maybe she was just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I have no idea how old rape victims deal with their ordeal, never mind 19 year olds.

If someone close to me was raped, I'd want justice and I'd want them to pay. Given that it's illegal to do to them what I'd prefer, maybe I'd want to take them for every penny I could. Maybe I'd brag about it to further punish the rapist. Maybe. I hope I'm never in the position to find out.

I don't suppose there's much more to be said about this, just now. We'll see what happens to Evans' appeal and his footballing future in due course.

Im guessing the post you deleted was in relation to my post, maybe you should know all the facts about what happened after the case before jumping the gun, yes i think she was ill advised and if it was a member of my family i would have told her to stay out the limelight and try to move on somehow. I think what he done was disgusting and quite rightly had to be punished

[Jdawg]

Girl also said she was spiked, however, no sign in the toxicology report.

I have just studied sexual offences at uni, therefore my opinion is still from a beginners standpoint, and consent is s very grey area. If a person is reckless in wether there is consent or if a person is intoxicated then they are not deemed able to consent therefore there is no consent.

Example, how many students/people get hammered at cav on £1 drinks then pull and have sex, technically all consent is invalid and it would be rape (in terms of the law).

I think Ched Evans should wait until his 2nd appeal is decided, if cleared back to football

[Steve-O]

I'll tell you something that's scandalous.

The woman Evans raped has had to change her identity, twice, because of the abuse she was receiving for having the audacity to complain abut being raped.

Maybe we should do what some people do in Pakistan and murder the rape victim.

I don't think that's anything like what's being suggested.

It is hardly Evans' fault that neanderthals want to now abuse the victim.

The point is, when you've done your time, why should the 'outraged public' also dictate what happens to you?

[McIntosh]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30563782 I think he will get better offers

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

That would be an interesting one for the boys on Soccer Saturday when he scores! :hmmm:

[Swedish hibee]

I'll tell you something that's scandalous.

The woman Evans raped has had to change her identity, twice, because of the abuse she was receiving for having the audacity to complain abut being raped.

Maybe we should do what some people do in Pakistan and murder the rape victim.

:clapper: Thank you for posting this.

[silverhibee]

Hartlepool won't be signing him. SSN

[judas]

As there can clearly be no opportunity for redemption, I think that Ched Evans should be executed.

We should then hand control of the judicial system to extremist feminists and those without sin.

Finally, we should torch all churches and abandon the Christian faith.

[judas]

:clapper: Thank you for posting this.

You've not read any post other than this one, have you?!

[Hibbyradge]

As there can clearly be no opportunity for redemption, I think that Ched Evans should be executed.

We should then hand control of the judicial system to extremist feminists and those without sin.

Finally, we should torch all churches and abandon the Christian faith.

How childish.

I agree about the churches though.

[Lmc2105]

About to Sign for Hibernian(s) :wink: they have offered him a 6 month contract

[stoneyburn hibs]

About to Sign for Hibernian(s) :wink: they have offered him a 6 month contract

Spotted the deleted thead on the main board and thought aw naw. Go Hibernians :rolleyes:

[Hannah_hfc]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2895038/We-Hibernian-not-Hibernians-Confusion-Ched-Evans-offered-deal-Malta-side.html

Cringing!

[Pretty Boy]

Not happening as a convicted sex offender still on license cam't work abroad.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not happening as a convicted sex offender still on license cam't work abroad.

Yeah, just heard this.

What was the difference with Thomson? He was allowed to play in Lithuania, no?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Yeah, just heard this.

What was the difference with Thomson? He was allowed to play in Lithuania, no?

Could it be because Thomson never went to jail ? :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

Could it be because Thomson never went to jail ? :dunno:

Good shout. He's not on licence, then.

The report I heard on the radio said that Evans had to have weekly (counselling?) sessions, hence couldn't leave the UK. Presumably, Thomson didn't have the same conditions.

[The_Horde]

Could it be because Thomson never went to jail ? :dunno:

He was on loan?

[McIntosh]

Well it looks like he is going to end up somewhere this window. A club in need will go for him.

[CropleyWasGod]

Gordon Taylor saying that a League 1 club are announcing his signature tomorrow.

[Pretty Boy]

Gordon Taylor saying that a League 1 club are announcing his signature tomorrow.

Oldham apparently.

[Pete]

An online petition has started.

This will be another club with thousands of fans that they never knew they had :rolleyes:

[Hermit Crab]

Do you think he should get a chance to play football again? I know it's a dodgy subject but I think he should be given a chance to play again.

[Scouse Hibee]

Do you think he should get a chance to play football again? I know it's a dodgy subject but I think he should be given a chance to play again.

It's a tough one and one argument against him is that he still won't admit what he done was wrong because he still believes he is innocent. I doubt whether supporters of any club will give him their backing and as we have already seen many will voice and indeed demonstrate their opposition to him that it becomes impossible for a club to entertain him. My own feeling is that unless he admits his guilt and attempts to be rehabilitated into society then he should not be allowed to play again.

[Colr]

It's a tough one and one argument against him is that he still won't admit what he done was wrong because he still believes he is innocent. I doubt whether supporters of any club will give him their backing and as we have already seen many will voice and indeed demonstrate their opposition to him that it becomes impossible for a club to entertain him. My own feeling is that unless he admits his guilt and attempts to be rehabilitated into society then he should not be allowed to play again.

Is he out on license pending an appeal? I assume he hasn't been paroled as he has not shown any contrition.

[McIntosh]

It's a tough one and one argument against him is that he still won't admit what he done was wrong because he still believes he is innocent. I doubt whether supporters of any club will give him their backing and as we have already seen many will voice and indeed demonstrate their opposition to him that it becomes impossible for a club to entertain him. My own feeling is that unless he admits his guilt and attempts to be rehabilitated into society then he should not be allowed to play again.

With respect, the man does not need to admit anything he believes that he did not commit a crime. Evans maintains his innocence, and an investigation into his conviction by the Criminal Cases Review Commision is underway. I for one believe he should have the opportunity to resume his football career.

[Scouse Hibee]

Is he out on license pending an appeal? I assume he hasn't been paroled as he has not shown any contrition.

Served half of his sentence so released on licence.

[Hibbyradge]

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6413480

[--------]

With respect, the man does not need to admit anything he believes that he did not commit a crime. Evans maintains his innocence, and an investigation into his conviction by the Criminal Cases Review Commission is underway. I for one believe he should have the opportunity to resume his football career.


I would agree with you.

All along Evans has maintained his innocence. If he were now to issue a statement expressing "contrition" for what he did he would be admitting guilt. Now that the CRC is investigating the circumstances of his conviction, the case is very much sub judice again. The organising of serial petitions to prevent him even training with a football club anywhere has become a witch-hunt, IMO.

Some years ago the then Southampton manager, Dave Jones, was accused of child abuse. He had been a care-giver in a children's home where child abuse had taken place, and had been named when police initiated a 'trawling' operation in the course of their enquiry. 'Trawling' is when police, having established the possibility of serious offences having been committed, put the word out that they're looking for corroborative witnesses. In this case the word also included the information that anyone who was a victim of the abuse alleged in this case would be entitled to victim compensation of up to £20,000. Unsurprisingly, they got loads of witnesses, and Jones name was mantioned. He was publicly arrested, put through the tabloid grinder (his was the only prominent name involved), lost his job at Southampton, saw his father die shortly after the case hit the papers, and spent a year preparing his defence only to be told in court on the first day of his trial that the Crown Prosecution Service had decided to 'abandon the case' some time previously. They hadn't told him or his defence team.

IIRC everyone was convinced that Jones was guilty. There was no chance he might have been stitched up. "No smoke without fire", don't y'know. Well, he was discharged as 'not guilty', but no action was taken against the witnesses who named him or the police who passed the word to the press that he was about to be arrested.

I have no opinion regarding Ched Evans save that he has consistently maintained his innocence and that there are certain aspects of the way his case was handled that leave me with a sense of unease as to the safety of his conviction.

Another link - his own website maintained by his friends and family and his defence team -

http://www.chedevans.com/

IMO he's at least entitled to put his case forward without prejudice and be allowed to continue to maintain his fitness to play football (his only trade, as far as I know) until the outcome of the CRC investigation is known.

[Hibbyradge]

I would agree with you.

All along Evans has maintained his innocence. If he were now to issue a statement expressing "contrition" for what he did he would be admitting guilt. Now that the CRC is investigating the circumstances of his conviction, the case is very much sub judice again. The organising of serial petitions to prevent him even training with a football club anywhere has become a witch-hunt, IMO.

Some years ago the then Southampton manager, Dave Jones, was accused of child abuse. He had been a care-giver in a children's home where child abuse had taken place, and had been named when police initiated a 'trawling' operation in the course of their enquiry. 'Trawling' is when police, having established the possibility of serious offences having been committed, put the word out that they're looking for corroborative witnesses. In this case the word also included the information that anyone who was a victim of the abuse alleged in this case would be entitled to victim compensation of up to £20,000. Unsurprisingly, they got loads of witnesses, and Jones name was mantioned. He was publicly arrested, put through the tabloid grinder (his was the only prominent name involved), lost his job at Southampton, saw his father die shortly after the case hit the papers, and spent a year preparing his defence only to be told in court on the first day of his trial that the Crown Prosecution Service had decided to 'abandon the case' some time previously. They hadn't told him or his defence team.

IIRC everyone was convinced that Jones was guilty. There was no chance he might have been stitched up. "No smoke without fire", don't y'know. Well, he was discharged as 'not guilty', but no action was taken against the witnesses who named him or the police who passed the word to the press that he was about to be arrested.

I have no opinion regarding Ched Evans save that he has consistently maintained his innocence and that there are certain aspects of the way his case was handled that leave me with a sense of unease as to the safety of his conviction.

Another link - his own website maintained by his friends and family and his defence team -

http://www.chedevans.com/

IMO he's at least entitled to put his case forward without prejudice and be allowed to continue to maintain his fitness to play football (his only trade, as far as I know) until the outcome of the CRC investigation is known.

I understand all of that, Doddie, and Evans is pursuing a legal case to clear his name.

If he wins, then he will be cleared of the charges that put him behind bars.

Until then, he is a convicted rapist. A jury who had listened to all the evidence, from both sides, and made that decision.

The fact that he maintains his innocence is irrelevant. The jails are full of "innocent" people. I'm pretty sure Myra Hindley maintained her innocence until she died. How can anyone sit in judgement when they haven't been party to the evidence? Fortunately for us, we don't have to judge because that's been done for us by the criminal justice system.

Also, if he loses his appeal and his guilt is confirmed, what then?

There is an argument that he's served his time so should be allowed to recommence his career. Another is that he shouldn't be punished for the same crime twice and both those arguments have merit.

My view is that there are certain crimes which should preclude the perpetrator for holding a job like a footballer.

Whether he'd admitted his guilt or not, I don't believe many would be arguing that Evans should play again if he'd been sentenced for raping a drunk man. Certainly not if it had been sexual assault against a child.

I believe that raping a woman is just as unacceptable.

When I (mis)heard that he was going to sign for Hibernians, my heart jumped into my mouth. I don't want him anywhere near our club, unless he clears his name.

[Future17]

My view is that there are certain crimes which should preclude the perpetrator for holding a job like a footballer.

I know this kind of thing was mentioned on here when Evans was first released, but it seems to have started to come out more in the media this time around. Could you give an example of a few jobs he shouldn't be precluded from doing and why?


Whether he'd admitted his guilt or not, I don't believe many would be arguing that Evans should play again if he'd been sentenced for raping a drunk man. Certainly not if it had been sexual assault against a child.

I don't think that's true. Regardless of the offence, he's either free to resume a career or he isn't. Surely what you're referring to is the potential that some people may believe certain offences should be sentenced more harshly than others?


When I (mis)heard that he was going to sign for Hibernians, my heart jumped into my mouth. I don't want him anywhere near our club, unless he clears his name.

I know there's emotive arguments on both sides of this debate, but one of the parts that baffles me is that you seem to be saying that you 100% trust the criminal justice system when it comes to deciding guilt, but not when it comes to rehabilitation?

[Hibbyradge]

I know this kind of thing was mentioned on here when Evans was first released, but it seems to have started to come out more in the media this time around. Could you give an example of a few jobs he shouldn't be precluded from doing and why?



I don't think convicted rapists should be able to walk back into jobs where they're held up as a role model or hero by children. Or adults.



I don't think that's true. Regardless of the offence, he's either free to resume a career or he isn't.


If he can get a job as a footballer, he's legally free to do so.

My point was that there would be far less people arguing for him to be allowed back into football had he raped a drunk man instead of a drunk woman. Of course, that can't be proved. However, there don't seem to be many on his side as it is.




Surely what you're referring to is the potential that some people may believe certain offences should be sentenced more harshly than others?


I think it's naive to think that a jail term in itself wipes the slate clean.

If you get jailed for drink driving, your insurance company isn't going to forget your crime for a long time.

If you get jailed for theft, you're unlikely to get a job in the police.

If you're a convicted rapist, you shouldn't be able to walk straight back into a job where you may quickly be held up as a hero and have children buying shirts with your name on it. And remember, Ched Evans didn't serve all his sentence. He's only out on license.


I know there's emotive arguments on both sides of this debate, but one of the parts that baffles me is that you seem to be saying that you 100% trust the criminal justice system when it comes to deciding guilt, but not when it comes to rehabilitation?

This isn't about the criminal justice system now. They've done their bit. This is about what society expects.

In any case, how can he be rehabilitated if he isn't sorry for his crime? I know, he doesn't think he committed a crime, and if he didn't, why should he apologise, but he can't be credited with rehabilitation until such time as he does.

So, unfortunately, the same circular argument continues.

[phoenixfire]

Dave
Your becoming more right wing than ghengis khan.
Evans is unlikely to repeat his offence in the centre
Circle on a sat afternoon ,give the guy a second
Chance as I gave you after several nights drinking
Without you buying a round:na na:

[Hibbyradge]

Dave
Your becoming more right wing than ghengis khan.
Evans is unlikely to repeat his offence in the centre
Circle on a sat afternoon ,give the guy a second
Chance as I gave you after several nights drinking
Without you buying a round:na na:

I don't think it's a left/right issue, Terry.



give the guy a second
Chance

Fortunately, that's not for me to decide.


as I gave you after several nights drinking
Without you buying a round:na na:

Well, you certainly must have been pished if that's your recollection! :greengrin

[McIntosh]

This isn't about the criminal justice system now. They've done their bit. This is about what society expects.

In any case, how can he be rehabilitated if he isn't sorry for his crime? I know, he doesn't think he committed a crime, and if he didn't, why should he apologise, but he can't be credited with rehabilitation until such time as he does.

So, unfortunately, the same circular argument continues.

"What society expects" - well with that logic, Hugh Callaghan, Pat Hill, Gerry Hunter, Richard McIlkenny, Bill Power and John Walker would have been executed in 1975. Why let the rule of law get in the way of mob rule. It seems that you cannot countenance that there is even the possibility that there has been a miscarriage of justice. Incredible.

[Hibbyradge]

"What society expects" - well with that logic, Hugh Callaghan, Pat Hill, Gerry Hunter, Richard McIlkenny, Bill Power and John Walker would have been executed in 1975. Why let the rule of law get in the way of mob rule. It seems that you cannot countenance that there has been a miscarriage of justice. Incredible.

Has there been a miscarriage of justice?

Of course I accept that's possibility, and if Evans win his case, he should be free to restart his career.

When should we believe a convicted criminal as opposed to a jury though?

[McIntosh]

Has there been a miscarriage of justice?

Of course I accept that's possibility, and if Evans win his case, he should be free to restart his career.

When should we believe a convicted criminal as opposed to a jury though? Do you now who the people I named are? If so it answers your question. Sadly, you just don't get it.

[Sergey]

"What society expects" - well with that logic, Hugh Callaghan, Pat Hill, Gerry Hunter, Richard McIlkenny, Bill Power and John Walker would have been executed in 1975. Why let the rule of law get in the way of mob rule. It seems that you cannot countenance that there is even the possibility that there has been a miscarriage of justice. Incredible.

The Birmingham bombers and the Ched Evans case are completely different as far as evidence goes and you can't draw any sort of parallel.

For one, Evans and his co-accused were captured on CCTV carrying the girl back to the hotel. The receptionist at the hotel gave a first-hand account of the girls state. The girl had been drugged and she was deemed to be in no condition to consent. Video footage was found on one of Evans mates who filmed the assault on his phone through the hotel window.

A judge and jury found him guilty of rape and it seems pretty damning to me.

[Hibbyradge]

Do you now who the people I named are? If so it answers your question. Sadly, you just don't get it.

Of course I know who they are, and I have no doubt that before capital punishment was abolished, innocent people were hanged in the UK. I have also no doubt this currently happens in other counties who still kill their own subjects, and I am sure that people are occasionally jailed in the UK when they're not guilty.

But should we always believe people just because they say they are innocent?

I have no evidence of Evans' guilt or innocence other than the fact that he was tried and found guilty, and that he lost a subsequent appeal against that verdict.

There seem to be a number of different arguments on this issue.

One argument is that he is innocent and shouldn't have been jailed at all, so should resume his career.

A second is that he should be given a second chance, regardless of guilt/innocence, as he has served his sentence.

And a third is that he should be given a second chance, if and when he properly acknowledges that what he did was wrong, and apologises sincerely.

Although on balance, I disagree with them, I find the second, and particularly the third, arguments much more persuasive than the first.

Of course, I accept the irony is, after his appeal, the first may turn out to be right.

[lord bunberry]

The Birmingham bombers and the Ched Evans case are completely different as far as evidence goes and you can't draw any sort of parallel.

For one, Evans and his co-accused were captured on CCTV carrying the girl back to the hotel. The receptionist at the hotel gave a first-hand account of the girls state. The girl had been drugged and she was deemed to be in no condition to consent. Video footage was found on one of Evans mates who filmed the assault on his phone through the hotel window.

A judge and jury found him guilty of rape and it seems pretty damning to me.

There's a video earlier in this thread that shows the girl arriving with Evans mate and Evans arriving later, she certainly wasn't being carried. I don't think she had been drugged either. Neither of these things proves his innocence of course.

[Sergey]

There's a video earlier in this thread that shows the girl arriving with Evans mate and Evans arriving later, she certainly wasn't being carried. I don't think she had been drugged either. Neither of these things proves his innocence of course.

The coroner (or whoever does the forensics) said there were traces of cannabis and cocaine in her blood.

This was mentioned in court as evidence.

[McIntosh]

The Birmingham bombers and the Ched Evans case are completely different as far as evidence goes and you can't draw any sort of parallel.

For one, Evans and his co-accused were captured on CCTV carrying the girl back to the hotel. The receptionist at the hotel gave a first-hand account of the girls state. The girl had been drugged and she was deemed to be in no condition to consent. Video footage was found on one of Evans mates who filmed the assault on his phone through the hotel window.

A judge and jury found him guilty of rape and it seems pretty damning to me.

Sergey, wonderful as you are. You fail to see the point. The point made here was the need for the rule of law as opposed to "what society expects" (Hibradge). The other more pressing point here is that juries have been known to get things wrong with 'spectacular' results.

[McIntosh]

Of course I know who they are, and I have no doubt that before capital punishment was abolished, innocent people were hanged in the UK. I have also no doubt this currently happens in other counties who still kill their own subjects, and I am sure that people are occasionally jailed in the UK when they're not guilty.

But should we always believe people just because they say they are innocent?

I have no evidence of Evans' guilt or innocence other than the fact that he was tried and found guilty, and that he lost a subsequent appeal against that verdict.

There seem to be a number of different arguments on this issue.

One argument is that he is innocent and shouldn't have been jailed at all, so should resume his career.

A second is that he should be given a second chance, regardless of guilt/innocence, as he has served his sentence.

And a third is that he should be given a second chance, if and when he properly acknowledges that what he did was wrong, and apologises sincerely.

Although on balance, I disagree with them, I find the second, and particularly the third, arguments much more persuasive than the first.

Of course, I accept the irony is, after his appeal, the first may turn out to be right.

I am glad that you note the there is at least the possibility that Evan's may well be completely vindicated on appeal. If he is vindicated he would not be the first or the last to have been 'convicted' by a jury and for that be overturned. I wonder if those who are very quick to condemn are aware that the 'safety' of the conviction is currently being reviewed.

[Sergey]

Sergey, wonderful as you are. You fail to see the point. The point made here was the need for the rule of law as opposed to "what society expects" (Hibradge). The other more pressing point here is that juries have been known to get things wrong with 'spectacular' results.

I now get the point you're trying to make. They are indeed Courts of Law and not Courts of Justice, whether you agree with that doesn't matter as many high profile crooks have gotten off on technicalities when clearly guilty.

The Stephen Lawrence case showed everything that is wrong with the court system.

[McIntosh]

The coroner (or whoever does the forensics) said there were traces of cannabis and cocaine in her blood.

This was mentioned in court as evidence.

Sergy - what is your point. They were according to the court transcript self administered.

[Sergey]

Sergy - what is your point. They were according to the court transcript self administered.

Sorry - I haven't read the transcript but I recall reading that she denied knowingly taking the drugs.

I could be wrong and can't really be bothered checking.

If it's really important then perhaps you can post a link (but I really don't mind if you don't)

[McIntosh]

I now get the point you're trying to make. They are indeed Courts of Law and not Courts of Justice, whether you agree with that doesn't matter as many high profile crooks have gotten off on technicalities when clearly guilty.

The Stephen Lawrence case showed everything that is wrong with the court system.

Interesting you quote this case I was directly involved with it for many years. It took time but justice was done and justice was seen to be done. The injustice in the Evan's case is clear particularly in the summing up. Remember Sergey there is an opposite about the guilty being cleared on technicalities - there are many innocent people found guilty on the shakiest of evidence.

[Hibbyradge]

Sergey, wonderful as you are. You fail to see the point. The point made here was the need for the rule of law as opposed to "what society expects" (Hibradge). The other more pressing point here is that juries have been known to get things wrong with 'spectacular' results.

I think there have been some crossed wires.

My point was that people (society) wouldn't want (expect) certain criminals simply to be able to resume their chosen careers. I gave a couple of analogies.

I wasn't debating Evans' guilt or otherwise when I made that point, in fact I was answering a point about Evans' "rehabilitation", and I've always said that there is the possibility he may win his appeal.

In my opinion, rapists shouldn't be welcomed back into football.

You may still disagree with that, but that's a different matter entirely to the safety of a particular individual's conviction.

[McIntosh]

I think there have been some crossed wires.

My point was that people (society) wouldn't want (expect) certain criminals simply to be able to resume their chosen careers. I gave a couple of analogies.

I wasn't debating Evans' guilt or otherwise when I made that point, in fact I was answering a point about Evans' "rehabilitation", and I've always said that there is the possibility he may win his appeal.

In my opinion, rapists shouldn't be welcomed back into football.

You may still disagree with that, but that's a different matter entirely to the safety of a particular individual's conviction.

It is not important if I agree or disagree though I would make the point your approach affords no possibility of redemption through sport. However, the evidence suggests that society accepts felons within football who have been convicted of more grievous crimes for example Luke McCormack and Lee Hughes to name but two.

[Sergey]

Interesting you quote this case I was directly involved with it for many years. It took time but justice was done and justice was seen to be done. The injustice in the Evan's case is clear particularly in the summing up. Remember Sergey there is an opposite about the guilty being cleared on technicalities - there are many innocent people found guilty on the shakiest of evidence.

Indeed.

As an aside, I've read a number of excellent books by the late Paul Foot who campaigned about miscarriages of justice. The work to clear James Hanratty is worth hunting down - as is his book on the murder of Carl Bridgwater. He was also prominent in the Birmingham Six case and the farce that was the Lockerbie trial.

As you rightly say, technicalities have seen many innocent folks lose their liberty (I'm not sure that Ched Evans ticks this box).

[McIntosh]

Indeed.

As an aside, I've read a number of excellent books by the late Paul Foot who campaigned about miscarriages of justice. The work to clear James Hanratty is worth hunting down - as is his book on the murder of Carl Bridgwater. He was also prominent in the Birmingham Six case and the farce that was the Lockerbie trial.

As you rightly say, technicalities have seen many innocent folks lose their liberty (I'm not sure that Ched Evans ticks this box).

Paul Foot was a top man - sadly missed. The closest we have to him today is Mike Mansfield QC a great human rights lawyer. One day when I am next in Scotland I will tell you the real story behind Lockerbie, Andrew Hardie and the missing files. You will not believe me - it was beyond parody. If it was not so serious it would be pure comedy. As for Evans time will tell it always does.

[Sergey]

Paul Foot was a top man - sadly missed. The closest we have to him today is Mike Mansfield QC a great human rights lawyer. One day when I am next in Scotland I will tell you the real story behind Lockerbie, Andrew Hardie and the missing files. You will not believe me - it was beyond parody. If it was not so serious it would be pure comedy. As for Evans time will tell it always does.

I'm only a couple of stops away from you on the tube :greengrin

[Hibby Bairn]

I'd be interested to know what kind of employment would be acceptable to those explicitly against re-employment as a footballer. Just a couple of practical example suggestions.

[steakbake]

Has anyone mentioned Hitler yet? That's where this thread is heading.

Godwin's Law.

[McIntosh]

I'm only a couple of stops away from you on the tube :greengrin We will have to meet - when you have time. Out of interest, what is your stop?

[Hibbyradge]

It is not important if I agree or disagree though I would make the point your approach affords no possibility of redemption through sport.

I know and that's the aspect I find most challenging and why I said that arguments 2 and 3 were more persuasive.


However, the evidence suggests that society accepts felons within football who have been convicted of more grievous crimes for example Luke McCormack and Lee Hughes to name but two.

Indeed.

I guess it's because rape is seen as deliberate, cowardly and nasty, and is therefore harder to forgive than crimes which were not intentional.

I'm not going to get into the "not all rapes are the same" discussion.

[Hibbyradge]

I'd be interested to know what kind of employment would be acceptable to those explicitly against re-employment as a footballer. Just a couple of practical example suggestions.

There lies another thread, and subsequent pointless argument entirely.

However, here are someone else's views on the matter from today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ched-evans-has-served-his-time--and-other-misconceptions-about-the-convicted-rapist-footballer-9957849.html

[Hibby Bairn]

Has anyone mentioned Hitler yet? That's where this thread is heading.

Godwin's Law.

Congrats :) you have just proven it.

[Hibby Bairn]

There lies another thread, and subsequent pointless argument entirely.

However, here are someone else's views on the matter from today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ched-evans-has-served-his-time--and-other-misconceptions-about-the-convicted-rapist-footballer-9957849.html

I don't understand why it would be pointless. The Independent opinion piece also doesn't offer any suggestions...just where he couldn't work. I am genuinely interested in what his employment options if any might be. If none then what does he do or what does society offer if anything?

[Hibbyradge]

I don't understand why it would be pointless. The Independent opinion piece also doesn't offer any suggestions...just where he couldn't work. I am genuinely interested in what his employment options if any might be. If none then what does he do or what does society offer if anything?

It would be pointless because we'd just end up going round in circles again.

I don't know what jobs are suitable for convicted rapists. What do they fancy doing?

What are they capable of doing or could learn to do?

What do other rapists do?

What do child sex criminals do?

I wouldn't be able to continue in my line of work if I was convicted of just about any crime, never mind rape. Maybe I'd start selling stuff online or something. I will do my best to ensure that never happens.

[--------]

I know and that's the aspect I find most challenging and why I said that arguments 2 and 3 were more persuasive.

Indeed.

I guess it's because rape is seen as deliberate, cowardly and nasty, and is therefore harder to forgive than crimes which were not intentional.

I'm not going to get into the "not all rapes are the same" discussion.


Lee Hughes - causing death by dangerous driving. Killed one of his passengers, a father of four kids. Fled the scene.

Luke McCormick - causing death by dangerous driving and driving while drunk. Killed two children. Fled the scene.

In what precise sense were these crimes 'unintentional'? Or less serious than the crime of which Evans has been convicted?

Children died. Children were left fatherless. But the men responsible are acceptable role-models for other fathers' kids - as footballers?

Are we just making it all up as we go along?

And I would just love to hear the foreman of the jury explain how they came to the conclusion that Evans was GUILTY, while the guy who took the woman to the motel and then phoned Evans to get him to come along (what did he think or intend Evans was going to do - let me think ...) was NOT GUILTY.

Or did the police give McDonald the old 'you stitch up your pal and we'll let you go' routine? (That way they're guaranteed to pot at least one of the accused.)

It's all rather confusing, really. :confused:

[Hibbyradge]

Lee Hughes - causing death by dangerous driving. Killed one of his passengers, a father of four kids. Fled the scene.

Luke McCormick - causing death by dangerous driving and driving while drunk. Killed two children. Fled the scene.

In what precise sense were these crimes 'unintentional'? Or less serious than the crime of which Evans has been convicted?

Children died. Children were left fatherless. But the men responsible are acceptable role-models for other fathers' kids - as footballers?


I understand all of that.

I don't know the reasons why the clubs decided to give these players contracts. As I said, my guess is that because they didn't set out to hurt anyone, they're easier to forgive. I know at least one of the players apologised and fully regrets his actions. Maybe that helped too. I don't know.




And I would just love to hear the foreman of the jury explain how they came to the conclusion that Evans was GUILTY, while the guy who took the woman to the motel and then phoned Evans to get him to come along (what did he think or intend Evans was going to do - let me think ...) was NOT GUILTY.

Or did the police give McDonald the old 'you stitch up your pal and we'll let you go' routine? (That way they're guaranteed to pot at least one of the accused.)



I don't know either.

My reading of appeal case suggests that the original jury decided, that on balance of probability, the woman had consented to have sex with McDonald.

After all, she had met him elsewhere and walked into the hotel with him willingly etc.

The "I've got a bird" text and the subsequent taxi journey suggests that at least, the woman hadn't even met Evans before he turned up. Consent, in that case, is obviously harder to prove. In fact, even though it's not illegal to do that, it looks sordid and sleazy.

A wealthy footballer having to nip across town in a cab to get a **** off a drunk bird his mate had pulled in a kebab shop or wherever? Not a great story for the defendant.

Whether he did anything illegal or not, he's hardly going to impress the jury with that behaviour.

R V Ched Evans (https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans)

[--------]

I understand all of that.

I don't know the reasons why the clubs decided to give these players contracts. As I said, my guess is that because they didn't set out to hurt anyone, they're easier to forgive. I know at least one of the players apologised and fully regrets his actions. Maybe that helped too. I don't know.



I don't know either.

My reading of appeal case suggests that the original jury decided, that on balance of probability, the woman had consented to have sex with McDonald.

After all, she had met him elsewhere and walked into the hotel with him willingly etc.

The "I've got a bird" text and the subsequent taxi journey suggests that at least, the woman hadn't even met Evans before he turned up. Consent, in that case, is obviously harder to prove. In fact, even though it's not illegal to do that, it looks sordid and sleazy.

A wealthy footballer having to nip across town in a cab to get a **** off a drunk bird his mate had pulled in a kebab shop or wherever? Not a great story for the defendant.

Whether he did anything illegal or not, he's hardly going to impress the jury with that behaviour.

R V Ched Evans (https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans)



Is that the reason he deserves all he got? He's a wealthy footballer who shouldn't have to get a cab across town to have sex with a drunk woman his friend had met and pulled in a takeaway? A woman his friend perhaps had deliberately got drunk?

It's allowable for an ordinary bloke like McDonald, but Evans has a fair bob or two and should know better?

Rape is rape. Date rape is date rape, and rape by drugging the victim is still rape by drugging the victim, and it doesn't matter what the accused does for a living, or how much money he earns.

You seem to be suggesting that even if Evans didn't rape the woman, his behaviour made his conviction entirely understandable. Even justified, perhaps?

(Rumpole of the Bailey looking severely at the witness over the top of reading glasses smilie.)

NO SYMPATHY FOR EITHER OF THEM, but they should either both have gone down, or both have walked, IMO.

I seem to detect the faintest odour of double standards, m'lud ..... :devil:

[Hibbyradge]

Is that the reason he deserves all he got? He's a wealthy footballer who shouldn't have to get a cab across town to have sex with a drunk woman his friend had met and pulled in a takeaway? A woman his friend perhaps had deliberately got drunk?

It's allowable for an ordinary bloke like McDonald, but Evans has a fair bob or two and should know better?

Rape is rape. Date rape is date rape, and rape by drugging the victim is still rape by drugging the victim, and it doesn't matter what the accused does for a living, or how much money he earns.

NO SYMPATHY FOR EITHER OF THEM, but they should either both have gone down, or both have walked, IMO.

I seem to detect the faintest odour of double standards, m'lud ..... :devil:

Mibbes aye, mibbes no.

Did you read the appeal notes?

The decision may have been wrong, one way or another, it may have been right, but I don't think there was double standards for the reasons you suggest.

But, as with most things these days, I don't know.

[Hibrandenburg]

Either we believe in redemption or we don't. If we insist on damming some criminals for eternity then we risk the consequence that certain criminals will do ANYTHING to cover their tracks.

Also I suppose I'm guilty of double standards because I wouldn't want Evans anywhere near Easter Road. There's always going to be exceptions to all rules but if society is going to work then justice has to be the same for all it's members.

[Steve-O]

I'm struggling to get this "footballers are role models" argument tbh. Some are, some aren't, that's the way it's always been.

Does anyone GENUINELY believe a young football fan will believe that rape is ok on the back of this? I don't.

[Sergio sledge]

Is that the reason he deserves all he got? He's a wealthy footballer who shouldn't have to get a cab across town to have sex with a drunk woman his friend had met and pulled in a takeaway? A woman his friend perhaps had deliberately got drunk?

I think you need to be careful saying things like the bit in bold. MacDonald met her in a takeaway and took her back to the hotel. There is nothing in any of the evidence that suggests the serious allegation you are postulating on here.


It's allowable for an ordinary bloke like McDonald, but Evans has a fair bob or two and should know better?

MacDonald is a footballer too isn't he?


Rape is rape. Date rape is date rape, and rape by drugging the victim is still rape by drugging the victim, and it doesn't matter what the accused does for a living, or how much money he earns.

You seem to be suggesting that even if Evans didn't rape the woman, his behaviour made his conviction entirely understandable. Even justified, perhaps?

(Rumpole of the Bailey looking severely at the witness over the top of reading glasses smilie.)

NO SYMPATHY FOR EITHER OF THEM, but they should either both have gone down, or both have walked, IMO.

I seem to detect the faintest odour of double standards, m'lud ..... :devil:

I'm not sure about double standards when one has been found guilty and one has been found innocent. This is from the appeal decision:


Given that direction, it was open to the jury to convict both defendants, to acquit both defendants, or to convict one and not the other defendant. That was the point of a joint trial in which separate verdicts were to be returned. It was open to the jury to consider that even if the complainant did not, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse with either of the two men, that in the light of his part in what happened -- the meeting in the street and so on -- McDonald may reasonably have believed that the complainant had consented to sexual activity with him, and at the same time concluded that the applicant knew perfectly well that she had not consented to sexual activity with him (the applicant). The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her. Those were matters entirely open to the jury; there was no inconsistency.

It is hard sometimes to see the reasons why certain decisions are made by juries, but we only get to see excerpts of evidence and written details of testimony not what the juries see in court.

Until we are told otherwise Evans is guilty, no matter how we feel about whether his conviction is sound or not and decisions on his suitability to work in certain areas need to be made based on the current status and nothing else IMHO.

I have to admit to being a hypocrite, I believe in rehabilitation and I believe everyone should be allowed to lead a normal life once they have served their punishment for their crimes, however I wouldn't want Hibs to sign him.

Whether he should be allowed to play professional football again is a matter for individual clubs however I do believe that perhaps Evans should have (for his own sake as much as anything else) tried to keep a lower profile on release and perhaps delayed any talk of a return to football until he had exhausted the options open to him in terms of appeals against his conviction etc.

A "I'm just going to concentrate on clearing my name" statement might have been a better statement to make to try to diffuse the situation and then make a return to football once the publicity and public outcry has died down. He doesn't have to show remorse for his conviction (he shouldn't if he genuinely believes in his innocence), but a lower profile would have been sensible IMHO.

[--------]

I think you need to be careful saying things like the bit in bold. McDonald met her in a takeaway and took her back to the hotel. There is nothing in any of the evidence that suggests the serious allegation you are postulating on here.

In that case I withdraw that comment unreservedly. I previously missed the section in the appeal decision where it is stated that the woman accelerated her consumption of alcohol in the immediate period before leaving the club, and that that consumption would have had a delayed effect on her, catching up with her after she arrived at the hotel? Have I got that right? In that case, McDonald could have had no inkling just how drunk she was, or how drunk she was likely to become. For him (and her, of course), the encounter would have been no more than a chance meeting leading to a pleasant evening together. A bit of consensual fun, in other words, nothing more.

So you're absolutely right, Sergio - having read the appeal decision again with more attention, I can see exactly why the jury made the distinction between the two men.

MacDonald is a footballer too isn't he?

Yup. Plays for Southport now as a part-timer. Apparently clubs aren't too keen on having him around either. It appears that there IS such a thing as bad publicity, unfortunately for McDonald. But the appeal decision makes clear the difference between his behaviour and that of Evans.


It is hard sometimes to see the reasons why certain decisions are made by juries, but we only get to see excerpts of evidence and written details of testimony not what the juries see in court.

Until we are told otherwise Evans is guilty, no matter how we feel about whether his conviction is sound or not and decisions on his suitability to work in certain areas need to be made based on the current status and nothing else IMHO.

I have to admit to being a hypocrite, I believe in rehabilitation and I believe everyone should be allowed to lead a normal life once they have served their punishment for their crimes, however I wouldn't want Hibs to sign him.

Whether he should be allowed to play professional football again is a matter for individual clubs however I do believe that perhaps Evans should have (for his own sake as much as anything else) tried to keep a lower profile on release and perhaps delayed any talk of a return to football until he had exhausted the options open to him in terms of appeals against his conviction etc.

A "I'm just going to concentrate on clearing my name" statement might have been a better statement to make to try to diffuse the situation and then make a return to football once the publicity and public outcry has died down. He doesn't have to show remorse for his conviction (he shouldn't if he genuinely believes in his innocence), but a lower profile would have been sensible IMHO.

Truth is, I wouldn't be happy with Evans playing at ER, either, so I guess I'm as big a hypocrite as everyone else.

[Purple & Green]

I don't see that you are hypocrites tbh - I think the issue with Ched Evans is that he refuses to admit his crime, and maintains his innocence. Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but at this juncture he's a convicted rapist who doesn't accept he's a criminal ergo no rehabilitation can take place.

So he doesn't play football until the appeals process is complete. I suppose it's his choice to balance up what's important in the great scheme of things to him.

[silverhibee]

Sergey, wonderful as you are. You fail to see the point. The point made here was the need for the rule of law as opposed to "what society expects" (Hibradge). The other more pressing point here is that juries have been known to get things wrong with 'spectacular' results.

I'm sure they have, but it will be a small percentage compared to how many times juries have got it right in court cases.

As of 15.20. 06.01.2015 Ched Evans is still a convicted rapist.

Just maybe he should wait until his appeal is heard before trying to get back in to a job as a football player.

On a side note, if he loses his appeal can the judge extend his sentence and send him back to prison.

[silverhibee]

I don't understand why it would be pointless. The Independent opinion piece also doesn't offer any suggestions...just where he couldn't work. I am genuinely interested in what his employment options if any might be. If none then what does he do or what does society offer if anything?

Unemployment.

Not many bosses in any line of work will hire a rapist.

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm struggling to get this "footballers are role models" argument tbh. Some are, some aren't, that's the way it's always been.

Does anyone GENUINELY believe a young football fan will believe that rape is ok on the back of this? I don't.
I agree, as much as I idolised footballers my role models were my parents.

[McIntosh]

I'm sure they have, but it will be a small percentage compared to how many times juries have got it right in court cases.

So what are you saying - miscarriages of justice are OK? Don't be ridiculous I wonder if another Evans - Timothy, would have been comforted by your logic.

[silverhibee]

So what are you saying - miscarriages of justice are OK? Don't be ridiculous I wonder if another Evans - Timothy, would have been comforted by your logic.

Did i say that, we are talking about Ched Evans here, as of now he is still a convicted rapist, you obviously seem to no the legal system, and you will no that when you are sent to prison there is not much to do inside, and the cry from the biggest majority in prisons around the UK from convicted prisoners is "I'm innocent, they stitched me up, my lawyer didn't ask the right questions at the trial, he f***ing grassed me up, it wasn't me", they start believing they are innocent because the prisoners they are talking to are all in the same boat and will believe every word that is said, because obviously they all feel the same, that they are innocent too.

The next thing you no they have got rid of there lawyer and are getting the law books in and going over statements from witnesses and they start seeing things that think's them to believe that they are innocent, they become kid on lawyers and think they are able to beat the system and overturn there convictions, maybe that's what Evans has done to pass his time away while in prison and he now believes he is innocent of the crime he committed.

But he is isn't at this present moment, he is a convicted rapist, he should have kept out of the spotlight after coming out of prison and seen to his appeal first then if he got it overturned he could have made in roads back in to football, imo he has went the wrong way about things and has become more of a unpopular person since being released from prison if that is possible for a rapist.

The appeal judges will decide his fate when ever that is.

[McIntosh]

Did i say that, we are talking about Ched Evans here, as of now he is still a convicted rapist, you obviously seem to no the legal system, and you will no that when you are sent to prison there is not much to do inside, and the cry from the biggest majority in prisons around the UK from convicted prisoners is "I'm innocent, they stitched me up, my lawyer didn't ask the right questions at the trial, he f***ing grassed me up, it wasn't me", they start believing they are innocent because the prisoners they are talking to are all in the same boat and will believe every word that is said, because obviously they all feel the same, that they are innocent too.

The next thing you no they have got rid of there lawyer and are getting the law books in and going over statements from witnesses and they start seeing things that think's them to believe that they are innocent, they become kid on lawyers and think they are able to beat the system and overturn there convictions, maybe that's what Evans has done to pass his time away while in prison and he now believes he is innocent of the crime he committed.

But he is isn't at this present moment, he is a convicted rapist, he should have kept out of the spotlight after coming out of prison and seen to his appeal first then if he got it overturned he could have made in roads back in to football, imo he has went the wrong way about things and has become more of a unpopular person since being released from prison if that is possible for a rapist.

The appeal judges will decide his fate when ever that is.

All of the wonderful and insightful anecdotal evidence from your time working with offenders is very interesting. However, there is a flaw in your thinking throughout - you do not consider the real and distinct possibility that miscarriages of justice occur.

You are correct in one thing, Evans has been convicted but sadly that the verdict in itself appears fundamentally unsafe. This reasoning does not enter your thinking. I would remind you of the following facts, the application to Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) was drafted July 2014. Representations to CCRC to prioritise consideration of application on legal grounds succeeded in October 2014.

The team that has been appointed from Garden Court Chambers are very strong. The team from the case manager to junior counsel are very thorough, indeed. David Emanuel is leading the application but it will be very interesting to see who accepts the brief as senior counsel. I believe eventually Evans will be cleared - the degree of misrepresentation and misdirection in this case is remarkable. Justice will be done and justice will be seen to be done.

[Hibby Bairn]

Did i say that, we are talking about Ched Evans here, as of now he is still a convicted rapist, you obviously seem to no the legal system, and you will no that when you are sent to prison there is not much to do inside, and the cry from the biggest majority in prisons around the UK from convicted prisoners is "I'm innocent, they stitched me up, my lawyer didn't ask the right questions at the trial, he f***ing grassed me up, it wasn't me", they start believing they are innocent because the prisoners they are talking to are all in the same boat and will believe every word that is said, because obviously they all feel the same, that they are innocent too.

The next thing you no they have got rid of there lawyer and are getting the law books in and going over statements from witnesses and they start seeing things that think's them to believe that they are innocent, they become kid on lawyers and think they are able to beat the system and overturn there convictions, maybe that's what Evans has done to pass his time away while in prison and he now believes he is innocent of the crime he committed.

But he is isn't at this present moment, he is a convicted rapist, he should have kept out of the spotlight after coming out of prison and seen to his appeal first then if he got it overturned he could have made in roads back in to football, imo he has went the wrong way about things and has become more of a unpopular person since being released from prison if that is possible for a rapist.

The appeal judges will decide his fate when ever that is.

I don't agree that we should just say "unemployment is the only option" as you assert in an earlier post. I think we should seek to help as a society as much as possible.

But I do strongly agree with all you say re keeping out of the limelight until his case is reviewed and/or appealed. Then, assuming a favourable outcome for him, he would be able to return to football without all the protests that currently exist.

[Rasta_Hibs]

It's sad times when grown men are supporting a man who raped a teenager.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's sad times when grown men are supporting a man who raped a teenager.

I think you'll find that most are supporting the right to rehabilitation and not Ched Evans.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I think you'll find that most are supporting the right to rehabilitation and not Ched Evans.

I'm not disagreeing with the right to rehabilitation! That not my point.

[Hibbyradge]

I think you'll find that most are supporting the right to rehabilitation and not Ched Evans.

Is it possible to rehabilitate when you think you've done nothing wrong? :dunno:

[Betty Boop]

The deal's off anyway according to the BBC, after pressure from sponsors, and threats to board members families, including rape and violence.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is it possible to rehabilitate when you think you've done nothing wrong? :dunno:

Of course not.

[Hibby Bairn]

The deal's off anyway according to the BBC, after pressure from sponsors, and threats to board members families, including rape and violence.

I hope the threat to rape the staff member's relative is properly investigated and charges brought. Shocking.

[Danderhall Hibs]

The deal's off anyway according to the BBC, after pressure from sponsors, and threats to board members families, including rape and violence.

That's got to be the definition of irony?!

[Hibbyradge]

I hope the threat to rape the staff member's relative is properly investigated and charges brought. Shocking.

Seemingly,GMP have received no complaint about this.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it possible to rehabilitate when you think you've done nothing wrong? :dunno:

Possibly!

[Hibbyradge]

What does "due consideration" mean? That doesn't need an answer. I just pose it to show how subjective the law on this is

All the non-consensual offences involve a high level of culpability on the part of the offender, since that person will have acted either deliberately without the victim's consent or without giving due consideration to whether the victim was able to or did, in fact, consent.

The planning of an offence indicates a higher level of culpability than an opportunistic or impulsive offence.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/

[haagsehibby]

i wonder if we would be having this debate to such an extent if it were Lionel Messi ?

[overdrive]

I won't go into whether he might be innocent or not as I don't know. I do have an opinion on this which I won't get into.

I do believe, however, that if you have served your time, you deserve a chance to get on with your life the best you can and I think some of the comments about him are verging on bullying. I don't understand the clamour for him to apologise (at least at this point of time) as to do so would compromise his appeal/review.

I also think he is being incredibly naive in thinking he can just pick up his career from where he left off. The amount of abuse he will get from the average punter at matches will be immense.

Which brings me to admit that despite all I've just said, I am also a hypocrite as I wouldn't want Hibs to sign him either due to the negative publicity.

Such a shady situation to be involved in no matter if he is innocent or guilty.

[LaMotta]

I won't go into whether he might be innocent or not as I don't know. I do have an opinion on this which I won't get into.

I do believe, however, that if you have served your time, you deserve a chance to get on with your life the best you can and I think some of the comments about him are verging on bullying. I don't understand the clamour for him to apologise (at least at this point of time) as to do so would compromise his appeal/review.

I also think he is being incredibly naive in thinking he can just pick up his career from where he left off. The amount of abuse he will get from the average punter at matches will be immense.

Which brings me to admit that despite all I've just said, I am also a hypocrite as I wouldn't want Hibs to sign him either due to the negative publicity.

Such a shady situation to be involved in no matter if he is innocent or guilty.


The thing with this is though that, had Oldham had the bravado to actually go through with the signing, after a relatively short period of time things would have gone back to normal. You are correct that initial abuse and the spotlight on him would be immense. However the hysteria would eventually die as the media and baying social media masses find something else to become outraged about.

You just need to look at the Horsemeat Scandal or the Independence Referendum to see how newsworthy topics soon become largely forgotten about. If Oldham had signed him, it would have been the beginning of the end.

[Hibbyradge]

And rape would become that little bit more acceptable.

[lapsedhibee]

And rape would become that little bit more acceptable.

Not sure if I understand your insistence on this point, 'radge. Is your position also that rehabilitating murderers after they're released from prison makes murder a bit more acceptable? Rehabilitating thieves makes theft more acceptable? Rehabilitation of criminals itself makes crime acceptable? :confused:

[overdrive]

The thing with this is though that, had Oldham had the bravado to actually go through with the signing, after a relatively short period of time things would have gone back to normal. You are correct that initial abuse and the spotlight on him would be immense. However the hysteria would eventually die as the media and baying social media masses find something else to become outraged about.

You just need to look at the Horsemeat Scandal or the Independence Referendum to see how newsworthy topics soon become largely forgotten about. If Oldham had signed him, it would have been the beginning of the end.

In a 'normal' situation, yes but not in football. Think of the abuse Richard Gough got and songs sung about him right to the end of his career fit what was essentially a rumour.

[Beefster]

Not sure if I understand your insistence on this point, 'radge. Is your position also that rehabilitating murderers after they're released from prison makes murder a bit more acceptable? Rehabilitating thieves makes theft more acceptable? Rehabilitation of criminals itself makes crime acceptable? :confused:

If a murderer doesn't accept that he's done anything wrong, can he be rehabilitated?

[lapsedhibee]

If a murderer doesn't accept that he's done anything wrong, can he be rehabilitated?

My inexpert understanding of rehabilitation is to make someone fit for work/society/whatever after a period out of it. That would I guess be substantially eased by an acceptance of responsibility for being out of it in the first place, but I'm not 100% sure that an expression of remorse is a sine qua non of rehabilitation.

In the ****bag Evans's case, he does seem now to have apologised (not the same as showing genuine remorse or acceptance of responsibility, of course). I don't quite see that his apology makes any difference to the issue of whether his returning to a fitba field makes rape more acceptable to society at large. Fitba has a crap image in wider society anyway imo - spitting, snarling, overpaid, foul-mouthed, cheating prima donnas. Convicted criminals participating probably makes that image even worse; it's not so clear that it glamourises the crimes perpetrated.

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure if I understand your insistence on this point, 'radge. Is your position also that rehabilitating murderers after they're released from prison makes murder a bit more acceptable? Rehabilitating thieves makes theft more acceptable? Rehabilitation of criminals itself makes crime acceptable? :confused:

No, that's not my view. Rehabilitation itself has no effect on the acceptability of an offence.

Although this may seem like a juxtaposition, I believe in rehabilitation more than I believe in punishment. I'm a well meaning liberal at heart.

Rehabilitation for me means that the individual recognises that what they did was wrong, they express genuine remorse, and they commit to changing their ways. Rehabilitation helps criminals get back into society. It protects society from further crime. It doesn't necessarily guarantee the criminal's return to their previous profession.

Having said that, when Leigh Griffiths had been arrested for suspected shoplifting, I heard people singing "He steals when he wants..." so I guess acceptability of that particular crime had increased a little. :dunno: Having heard the base level of some of the songs supporters sing, it would be no great surprise if a song about rape could find its way into the mouths of a section of moronic supporters.

I'm certain that if a football player was convicted of child sex offences, no football club would touch him and few fans would watch him play. I think most people would acknowledge that.

If that's correct, then in effect, we're saying is that raping a woman is a more acceptable crime. Whilst I agree crimes against children are usually more heinous than against adults, rape should not be seen as acceptable in any circumstances.

Football is special. It cuts across class, politics and social status. Football is literally the only life some people have. Football influences people's values and beliefs. It's ok to cheat, unless you're an opponent. Footballers have been killed for mistakes. Bombs and bullets were sent to Neil Lennon. Of course, I'm not talking about rational people.

However, it's a funny world when sensible people would be prepared to accept rapists into their club, but wouldn't want player x or manager y near it, because their personality doesn't fit or because they'd been a particular thorn in the club's side. There are people who would rather have accepted a convicted rapist into the team than Ian Murray, purely because he gave us the vickies at Ibrox.

This is such a complicated issue to debate in 2D. I'm working hard to get my meaning across as I intend it and I fully understand that the more I write, the more scope I give for folk to nit pick individual bits of my argument. I can predict some of the counter arguments already, but it's much more complex than just the individual components.

[LaMotta]

In a 'normal' situation, yes but not in football. Think of the abuse Richard Gough got and songs sung about him right to the end of his career fit what was essentially a rumour.

Indeed but that didnt stop him having a long successful footballing career.

[Stranraer]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

[Hibrandenburg]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

So in other words "she had it coming"?

[RyeSloan]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

It is all rather predictable though.

He would have been much better served just waiting for the appeal to go its course....sure he may have wanted to start playing and earning again but his statements and actions since leaving prison have hardly helped his cause.

I'm not sure any employer would be eager to put a convicted rapist who is out on licence on their payroll and I totally accept that football fans would not wish for their club to be associated with such a person. Nothing wrong in that and ultimately a consequence of his actions and conviction.

Of course if his appeal is successful and the conviction quashed then the whole debate changes, as it should do. But until then he is a convicted rapist out on licence and until then I for one would not want him signing for my team.

[Hibbyradge]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

Blame the victim. That's a disgrace.

She's entitled to post whatever she likes. She hasn't commited a crime.

She didn't even report the crime. None of this is her fault. None of it, but some folk want to attack her anyway.

I have no idea how I'd react if I thought I was going to receive criminal compensation from a wealthy footballer.

When I was 19, I'd probably have been very excited about the prospect and talked about it to my pals.

[Hibbyradge]

Indeed but that didnt stop him having a long successful footballing career.

Why would it have? He wasn't convicted of anything.

[phoenixfire]

[QUOTE=Hibbyradge;4269762]Blame the She hasn't commited a crimeQUOTE]

Drunk and incapable not a crime ?

[easty]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

Are you having a laugh? What an awfy load of ***** that is.

Bile against Evans...the convicted rapist? What about the bile youve posted about a girl who's been raped. That's unreal.

[silverhibee]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

Evans is a beast, sex offender, rapist, predator, nonce, and you come away with that pish, AMAZING, this female has been the victim of a horrific crime where she was raped in a hotel room by Ched (THE BEAST) Evans.

If she wants to have a holiday with her friends and buy a car then so be it, unbelievable what you have just come away with, remember Evans wants back in to football so he can keep his luxury house buy new cars for him and his deluded female partner and live a good life and have nice holidays, have a f***ing word with yourself, she is a victim at this point and Evans is a rapist at this point in time now, and you are defending him. FFS.

[silverhibee]

If a murderer doesn't accept that he's done anything wrong, can he be rehabilitated?

He won't be released from prison.

[LaMotta]

Why would it have? He wasn't convicted of anything.

The point is about abuse of a footballer from the terraces affecting their abilty to play football and have a career. Nothing to do with convictions.

[Betty Boop]

Evans is a beast, sex offender, rapist, predator, nonce, and you come away with that pish, AMAZING, this female has been the victim of a horrific crime where she was raped in a hotel room by Ched (THE BEAST) Evans.

If she wants to have a holiday with her friends and buy a car then so be it, unbelievable what you have just come away with, remember Evans wants back in to football so he can keep his luxury house buy new cars for him and his deluded female partner and live a good life and have nice holidays, have a f***ing word with yourself, she is a victim at this point and Evans is a rapist at this point in time now, and you are defending him. FFS.

What do you mean by his deluded female partner ?

[Stranraer]

Blame the victim. That's a disgrace.

She's entitled to post whatever she likes. She hasn't commited a crime.

She didn't even report the crime. None of this is her fault. None of it, but some folk want to attack her anyway.

I have no idea how I'd react if I thought I was going to receive criminal compensation from a wealthy footballer.

When I was 19, I'd probably have been very excited about the prospect and talked about it to my pals.

I'm not blaming the victim. I am simply saying having watched the CCTV footage and saw the tweets she posted I believe Evans was wrongly convicted. I stand by my opinion.

[Stranraer]

Are you having a laugh? What an awfy load of ***** that is.

Bile against Evans...the convicted rapist? What about the bile youve posted about a girl who's been raped. That's unreal.

What I am trying to say is people have seen it on the news and I was only trying to say I believe he was wrongly convicted. I condemn all forms of rape and sexual abuse, but I don't think the girl should have posted such tweets as she did about taking her pals on holiday and the car she was going to buy.

[Pete]

The bile against Evans is amazing, especially when one looks at the CCTV footage of a woman who was supposedly so drunk she had to be carried in and then posted on her Twitter page about the cars she will buy, the holidays her and her friends will be going on.

I don't know about the footage but the tweets are interesting.

If these had been taken into consideration I wonder how things would be just now. Evans had to track them down himself and they were bizarrely ignored by those who were in charge of making decisions regarding the remainder of his life.

If I believed I was innocent I would be livid at those tweets and would want the world to know about them. It's food for thought to say the least.

[Stranraer]

I don't know about the footage but the tweets are interesting.

If these had been taken into consideration I wonder how things would be just now. Evans had to track them down himself and they were bizarrely ignored by those who were in charge of making decisions regarding the remainder of his life.

If I believed I was innocent I would be livid at those tweets and would want the world to know about them. It's food for thought to say the least.

Well thanks for not losing the plot with me, I believe he was wrongly convicted that's all, based on what I have read. I must repeat I condemn all forms of rape / sexual abuse.

[easty]

I'm not blaming the victim. I am simply saying having watched the CCTV footage and saw the tweets she posted I believe Evans was wrongly convicted. I stand by my opinion.

Well if that's what it takes you to decide a girl wasnt raped I really hope you're never given the responsibility of jury duty.

[Stranraer]

Well if that's what it takes you to decide a girl wasnt raped I really hope you're never given the responsibility of jury duty.

That's fine by me, but I formed an opinion based on what I read following the Tweets she posted and based on the CCTV footage where she was supposedly absolutely hammered. I guess you know the case inside out so well done.

[easty]

I don't know about the footage but the tweets are interesting.

If these had been taken into consideration I wonder how things would be just now. Evans had to track them down himself and they were bizarrely ignored by those who were in charge of making decisions regarding the remainder of his life.

If I believed I was innocent I would be livid at those tweets and would want the world to know about them. It's food for thought to say the least.

These things? Well the lassie doesn't seen that clever, so, well she must be making it all up then.

[easty]

That's fine by me, but I formed an opinion based on what I read following the Tweets she posted and based on the CCTV footage where she was supposedly absolutely hammered. I guess you know the case inside out so well done.

Nah I don't know it inside out, but a jury did, and those 3 appeal judges did. Judges though, overrated, they should have just got some guys off the internet, who can read Twitter and watch cctv footage.

[Pete]

Well if that's what it takes you to decide a girl wasnt raped I really hope you're never given the responsibility of jury duty.

The jury weren't given the option of considering the tweets as evidence.

[easty]

The jury weren't given the option of considering the tweets as evidence.

The tweets aren't evidence of anything.

[Pete]

Nah I don't know it inside out, but a jury did, and those 3 appeal judges did. Judges though, overrated, they should have just got some guys off the internet, who can read Twitter and watch cctv footage.

I'm sorry but there a lot more people than "some guys off the Internet" who have reservations about the conviction.

[easty]

I'm sorry but there a lot more people than "some guys off the Internet" who have reservations about the conviction.

The same could be said about America being behind 9/11, doesn't make it more or less likely.

[Pete]

The tweets aren't evidence of anything.

That's one way of looking at them. Others might read them and come to a different conclusion.

[easty]

That's one way of looking at them. Others might read them and come to a different conclusion.

There's nothing in those tweets that says "I made it up" or "I wasn't raped" or that even implies it.

[Future17]

He won't be released from prison.

If you have served your sentence, you will be released from prison regardless of whether you continue to claim you are innocent. You would not, however, be released early.

[Pete]

There's nothing in those tweets that says "I made it up" or "I wasn't raped" or that even implies it.

Again, that's one way of looking at them. Others might draw a different conclusion.

[LaMotta]

There's nothing in those tweets that says "I made it up" or "I wasn't raped" or that even implies it.

Nor could there be because she doesnt know what happened that night.

[silverhibee]

What do you mean by his deluded female partner ?

Just asked my missus if she would stick by me if i got 5 years for rape.


I will leave out the sweary words and just say she said, No. :aok:

[Stranraer]

There's nothing in those tweets that says "I made it up" or "I wasn't raped" or that even implies it.

What do you think the tweets do imply? As someone with PTSD they imply someone who seems unexpectedly upbeat.

[Hibbyradge]

What do you think the tweets do imply? As someone with PTSD they imply someone who seems unexpectedly upbeat.

They imply nothing.

What do you think they imply?

[Stranraer]

They imply nothing.

What do you think they imply?

See my previous quote... :confused:

[easty]

What do you think the tweets do imply? As someone with PTSD they imply someone who seems unexpectedly upbeat.

They say she expected to get some money and what she planned to do with it.

Upbeat has nothing to do with it. I've been to funerals where I've had a few laughs, doesn't mean I wasn't upset generally.

[silverhibee]

If you have served your sentence, you will be released from prison regardless of whether you continue to claim you are innocent. You would not, however, be released early.

Is this the case for a murderer. ?

[Betty Boop]

Just asked my missus if she would stick by me if i got 5 years for rape.


I will leave out the sweary words and just say she said, No. :aok:

She obviously believes his version of events, and therefore wouldn't be the first to stand by her man. Hardly makes her deluded.

[Hibbyradge]

What do you think the tweets do imply? As someone with PTSD they imply someone who seems unexpectedly upbeat.

Where did you get the idea she claimed to be suffering from PTSD?

You know she didn't claim she was raped?

Why shouldn't she tweet about potential compensation? What difference would that make?

[silverhibee]

She obviously believes his version of events, and therefore wouldn't be the first to stand by her man. Hardly makes her deluded.

Okay Betty, just asked my missus if i done what Evans had done, without the court case, ie jumped in a taxi to go to a hotel and have my way with a drunk female after my mate phoning me up to say nip over for a **** of this female and my missus found out.

Reply. It would be over with us.

Fair reply, Yeah.

I won't give my thoughts why i think she is sticking by him. :aok:

Never seen this mentioned but do they have children, know they have a couple of funny wee dogs. :greengrin :aok:

[Beefster]

Again, that's one way of looking at them. Others might draw a different conclusion.

It's irrelevant what conclusion anyone draws from the victim's tweets. They're not evidence of anything related to the crime. That's a simple fact.

You seem to be implying that Evans is innocent in part because the victim was happy to be getting some compensation. Years ago, my mate was assaulted and got a wedge in compensation - he was delighted with the compensation. It didn't mean he wasn't assaulted though.

[Pete]

It's irrelevant what conclusion anyone draws from the victim's tweets. They're not evidence of anything related to the crime. That's a simple fact.

You seem to be implying that Evans is innocent in part because the victim was happy to be getting some compensation. Years ago, my mate was assaulted and got a wedge in compensation - he was delighted with the compensation. It didn't mean he wasn't assaulted though.

It's far from irrelevant if she is bragging about compensation she will receive because she was raped. Some people might come to the conclusion that she planned the whole thing for cash. Sure, she never complained about being raped but we all know that sex without consent is technically rape.

I don't know the meaning behind them but this appears to be what Evans is implying.

If the tweets were about compensation from being named then it is indeed totally irrelevant and a bit naughty on Evans' part.

[Future17]

Is this the case for a murderer. ?

Of course it is.

For me, the one thing that has come out of this whole debacle is the realisation that a large number of people would be happy for us to go back to the dark ages in our treatment of offenders. Also, hand-in-hand with that, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the current system of criminal justice and the realities of that.

Regardless of people's opinion of the specifics of the Evans case, there is no doubt he has suffered due to his high profile.

[silverhibee]

Of course it is.

For me, the one thing that has come out of this whole debacle is the realisation that a large number of people would be happy for us to go back to the dark ages in our treatment of offenders. Also, hand-in-hand with that, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the current system of criminal justice and the realities of that.

Regardless of people's opinion of the specifics of the Evans case, there is no doubt he has suffered due to his high profile.


So if a murder gets 20 years he will be released after doing 20 years, does the parole board not deem that if they feel he is not ready for parole after 20 years he stays in prison.

[Steve-O]

He won't be released from prison.

Not necessarily true. Through my job I have been to parole hearings where murderers who still claim innocence have been released as they are deemed to no longer be an undue risk to the safety of the community. That's in NZ, but parole boards tend to operate similarly.

You are right in your more recent post though - murderers are sentenced to life imprisonment and while they do become eligible for parole, they do not HAVE to be released at anytime.

Evans I believe was granted parole, he was NOT at the stage he had to be released.

[Steve-O]

That's fine by me, but I formed an opinion based on what I read following the Tweets she posted and based on the CCTV footage where she was supposedly absolutely hammered. I guess you know the case inside out so well done.

I'm not entirely sure the CCTV footage proves much. I know that I've been so drunk I can't remember getting home etc, but unless I've done something completely outrageous, it's not been obvious to others how drunk I am - i.e. I've not been staggering all over the place as it's being inferred she should have been doing.

At the end of the day she's gone home with one guy voluntarily and that's probably why he's gotten away with it. I don't think many females in that situation would expect another person to show up and have a go with her too.

[hibsdaft]

Keep sex offenders out of football. Same with murderers and drink drive killers. The leagues need clear rules on this to save us these crappy debates.

We're now seeing kids tweeting in defence of registered sex offenders, what the **** is that all about.

[Hibbyradge]

The point is about abuse of a footballer from the terraces affecting their abilty to play football and have a career. Nothing to do with convictions.

I see. I missed that, sorry.

Gough had to deal with a couple of songs everytime he played in Scotland for Rangers after the rumours surfaced. (Rumours which were probably malicious and were completely unspecific, to my knowledge.)

However, he was generally accepted by the footballing community, there was no issue at all with his own fans and he continued to play for his country. Newspapers and commentators didn't refer to him as "alleged child sex offender".

I doubt any of that would be replicated in the case of a convicted rapist.

When Rix was appointed at Hearts, there were protests outside the PBS and, iirc, hats were kicked, very firmly indeed. He had served 6 months of a 1 yesr sentence for having consensual sex with a 15 year old girl. Because of the circumstances of his crime, there was some sympathy for him within the football community, and initially he went back to his job at Chelsea, but he was never fully accepted. He now complains that no-one will employ him because of what happened nearly 16 years ago. He maintains that the girl looked a lot older than 15 and that she actually seduced him.

Craig Thomson didn't go to jail for showing his tackle to a 12 year old and a 14 year old girl. The generous and understanding philanthropist that is Vladimir Romanov tried to keep him on at Hearts. In the face of pressure from their own fans, their own staff and their sponsors, he was eventually shipped off to Kaunas to hide. The question most commentators asked at the time was, "Why did it take so long?" In 2013 he was charged for working as an unlicensed window cleaner and he now only gets a game for junior side, Newtongrange Star.

Unless Evans clears his name, I think football will ultimately shun him and I believe it would be right to do so.

[Hibbyradge]

Some people might come to the conclusion that she planned the whole thing for cash. Sure, she never complained about being raped but we all know that sex without consent is technically rape.



She didn't go to the police about being raped. That would presumably be a major part in any honey trap sting operation on a footballer, no?

Ignoring that obvious fact, what you're suggesting is that she made a plan so cunning, it would be fitting of a John Le Carre novel.

Step 1. Get leathered. Drink, cannabis, coccaine or whatever.

Step 2. Go to a kebab shop on the way home in the certain knowledge that it will definitely be frequented by a footballer who is gagging on it at precisely the same time.

Step 3. Look alluring so you get propositioned and agree to go back to a hotel room which you have cleverly found out has been booked by said footballer.

Step 4. Use telepathy to plant a suggestion in the footballer's mind that he should text his mates on the way to the hotel.

Step 5. Use your well honed judgement of people to realise that his mates would all come round for either a bit of the action or to film said action on their phone.

Step 6. Use telepathy to suggest that the best way to leave the hotel after the action was not via reception, but via a fire escape.

Step 7. Pee the bed.

Step 8. Don't tell the police about what happened.

Chances of success?

[LaMotta]

I see. I missed that, sorry.

Gough had to deal with a couple of songs everytime he played in Scotland for Rangers after the rumours surfaced. (Rumours which were probably malicious and were completely unspecific, to my knowledge.)

However, he was generally accepted by the footballing community, there was no issue at all with his own fans and he continued to play for his country. Newspapers and commentators didn't refer to him as "alleged child sex offender".

I doubt any of that would be replicated in the case of a convicted rapist.

When Rix was appointed at Hearts, there were protests outside the PBS and, iirc, hats were kicked, very firmly indeed. He had served 6 months of a 1 yesr sentence for having consensual sex with a 15 year old girl. Because of the circumstances of his crime, there was some sympathy for him within the football community, and initially he went back to his job at Chelsea, but he was never fully accepted. He now complains that no-one will employ him because of what happened nearly 16 years ago. He maintains that the girl looked a lot older than 15 and that she actually seduced him.

Craig Thomson didn't go to jail for showing his tackle to a 12 year old and a 14 year old girl. The generous and understanding philanthropist that is Vladimir Romanov tried to keep him on at Hearts. In the face of pressure from their own fans, their own staff and their sponsors, he was eventually shipped off to Kaunas to hide. The question most commentators asked at the time was, "Why did it take so long?" In 2013 he was charged for working as an unlicensed window cleaner and he now only gets a game for junior side, Newtongrange Star.

Unless Evans clears his name, I think football will ultimately shun him and I believe it would be right to do so.

Lots of food for thought in that.

Luke McCormack, Lee Hughes and Mike Tyson have proved that despite having high profile convictions for serious crimes, their careers could continue. Of course they have all been referenced many times before during the debate, but helps to illustrate my point that I think Evans would be able to have a career of some sort in the game.

[silverhibee]

Lots of food for thought in that.

Luke McCormack, Lee Hughes and Mike Tyson have proved that despite having high profile convictions for serious crimes, their careers could continue. Of course they have all been referenced many times before during the debate, but helps to illustrate my point that I think Evans would be able to have a career of some sort in the game.

That piece of s**t shouldn't be holding a driving license never mind getting back in to playing football again.

Strachan was right in what he said in the summer at the World Cup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFObWTD9Gv4

[Hibbyradge]

Lots of food for thought in that.

Luke McCormack, Lee Hughes and Mike Tyson have proved that despite having high profile convictions for serious crimes, their careers could continue. Of course they have all been referenced many times before during the debate, but helps to illustrate my point that I think Evans would be able to have a career of some sort in the game.

I've been trying where possible, and probably unsuccessfully, to avoid using Evans in my examples, and talk about the offence generally, but of course, you could be right. I'd be very surprised if another club approaches him before his appeal now, though. And if he loses that?

Mike Tyson's return to mainstream sport was a disgrace to boxing, imo. He was given 6 years for raping a teenage beauty queen and, as far as I know, he has never apologised and shows no remorse. He's banned from entering the UK because of his conviction though, so that maybe says something about our society's view of such a crime.

I know Hughes and McCormack are back in the game, and the effects of their crimes were utterly devastating. However, I think society views those offences differently, although there was also a great deal of controversy at the time of their return to football.

Although these guys deliberately drove their cars while being over the limit, they did not set out to hurt anyone and I think that's significant in people's attitude toward them.

Sex offences seem to be perceived even more negatively. Apart from Mike Tyson, I can't think of any other convicted sex offenders who have easily returned to their careers. :dunno:

I saw a bloke getting a kicking in Ryries many, many years ago. He was knocked to the floor at the bar and the guy battering him was shouting "You rapist so and so" "Disgusting beast" etc. No-one intervened. After a good number of blows, the attacker walked out the pub and the victim got himself to his feet and also left, head down in silence.

Now what happened there wasn't right, I know that. It does go to show how people view sex offenders, though, as does the fact that they are kept separate from the rest of the prison community for their own safety.

[Steve-O]

Sex offenders are an easy target as people know they can say or do what they want to them without fear of reprisals.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

My heart bleeds for them, it really does.

[Beefster]

Sex offenders are an easy target as people know they can say or do what they want to them without fear of reprisals.

The laws of the land still apply to sex offenders so it's illegal to assault/harass them. If they have any problems, they can go to the police like the rest of us.

In any case, presumably a potential sex offender is aware of the possible consequences of being caught.

[blackpoolhibs]

Owen Oyston is a convicted rapist, yet he owns Blackpool Football Club and has taken Millions out the club after its promotion and relegation from the Premiership.

While we are at it, lets get him out of football.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/oyston-gets-six-years-for-rape-1348681.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2109838/Owen-Oyston-paid-11m-Blackpool-relegated-Nick-Harris.html

[lapsedhibee]

No, that's not my view. Rehabilitation itself has no effect on the acceptability of an offence.

Although this may seem like a juxtaposition, I believe in rehabilitation more than I believe in punishment. I'm a well meaning liberal at heart.

Rehabilitation for me means that the individual recognises that what they did was wrong, they express genuine remorse, and they commit to changing their ways. Rehabilitation helps criminals get back into society. It protects society from further crime. It doesn't necessarily guarantee the criminal's return to their previous profession.

Having said that, when Leigh Griffiths had been arrested for suspected shoplifting, I heard people singing "He steals when he wants..." so I guess acceptability of that particular crime had increased a little. :dunno: Having heard the base level of some of the songs supporters sing, it would be no great surprise if a song about rape could find its way into the mouths of a section of moronic supporters.

I'm certain that if a football player was convicted of child sex offences, no football club would touch him and few fans would watch him play. I think most people would acknowledge that.

If that's correct, then in effect, we're saying is that raping a woman is a more acceptable crime. Whilst I agree crimes against children are usually more heinous than against adults, rape should not be seen as acceptable in any circumstances.

Football is special. It cuts across class, politics and social status. Football is literally the only life some people have. Football influences people's values and beliefs. It's ok to cheat, unless you're an opponent. Footballers have been killed for mistakes. Bombs and bullets were sent to Neil Lennon. Of course, I'm not talking about rational people.

However, it's a funny world when sensible people would be prepared to accept rapists into their club, but wouldn't want player x or manager y near it, because their personality doesn't fit or because they'd been a particular thorn in the club's side. There are people who would rather have accepted a convicted rapist into the team than Ian Murray, purely because he gave us the vickies at Ibrox.

This is such a complicated issue to debate in 2D. I'm working hard to get my meaning across as I intend it and I fully understand that the more I write, the more scope I give for folk to nit pick individual bits of my argument. I can predict some of the counter arguments already, but it's much more complex than just the individual components.

Not sure it follows that Leigh's arrest for shoplifting can be said to have made shoplifting more acceptable, just because folk started singing about it. Equally plausible that those who broke into song already found it a relatively innocuous crime and were just singing, er, for the banter. Or maybe they didn't find it acceptable at all but still sang about it anyway, like being so overweight that ten men couldn't carry you, or being so ugly that you'd get booked for it.

And this is 2015. You'd think the admin pricks could have got 3D up and running on the forum by now. TVs have had it for years ffs. :grr::panic:

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure it follows that Leigh's arrest for shoplifting can be said to have made shoplifting more acceptable, just because folk started singing about it. Equally plausible that those who broke into song already found it a relatively innocuous crime and were just singing, er, for the banter. Or maybe they didn't find it acceptable at all but still sang about it anyway, like being so overweight that ten men couldn't carry you, or being so ugly that you'd get booked for it.


There was a bloke I used to work beside in an office who got jailed in the 90's for abusing his own daughter. He lost his job and I've never seen him since.

Had he served his time and simply walked back into his old job, my view is that the implication would be that his crime was viewed less seriously, than it was in the first scenario.

However, I don't think there's anything more I can say to help you understand my point of view on this, so let's leave it there.

[Hibbyradge]

This footy law article is lengthy and shines some light on the Evans case itself.

http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-sifting-facts-from-fiction/

[LaMotta]

This footy law article is lengthy and shines some light on the Evans case itself.

http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/ched-evans-sifting-facts-from-fiction/


The comments below the article are more enlightening than the article itself imo, with some intelligent arguments for both sides of the coin.

Reading the comments have convinced me even more so that the conviction was unsafe.

[lapsedhibee]

Owen Oyston is a convicted rapist, yet he owns Blackpool Football Club and has taken Millions out the club after its promotion and relegation from the Premiership.

While we are at it, lets get him out of football.



Stan Collymore kicked Ulrika Jonsson in the head, and he hosts a primetime radio show about fitba.

He tried to dismiss the attack, during which he kicked Miss Jonsson in the head three times, by saying: 'It was three years ago. Yes, it was something that happened . . . It was five seconds of my life three years ago.

'Am I going to have to talk about this every time? Believe it or not, I've got a hell of a lot more to talk about.'

[lapsedhibee]

The comments below the article are more enlightening than the article itself imo, with some intelligent arguments for both sides of the coin.


:agree:

Possible conclusions:

(1) Evans is unlikely to manage to get himself a retrial, but if he does a different jury might come to a different verdict.
(2) Evans is a proven ****bag, whether he gets a retrial or not, and irrespective of any different verdict.
(3) As a proven ****bag, he should be oot the public eye.

Possible difficulty:

If you keep ****bags oot the public eye because of the possible copycat effects of their being in the public eye, or because of a drip drip drip effect leading to an increase in the acceptability of their ****bag behaviour, how wide is your definition of ****bag behaviour? People who pish in doorways? People who have multiple children by multiple partners outwith the sanctity of marriage? Rape much more serious than those things, obviously, but there's perhaps the risk of going-down-the-thin-end-of-a-slippery-wedge type argument.

[Steve-O]

My heart bleeds for them, it really does.

I'm not making a point about sympathy for them, more the people that rant and rave about these people without any personal experience of such things, but just like to make sure that everyone knows they're not like that by shouting from the rooftops about hanging them, chopping off balls etc etc.

It's boring and unhelpful.

[Steve-O]

The laws of the land still apply to sex offenders so it's illegal to assault/harass them. If they have any problems, they can go to the police like the rest of us.

In any case, presumably a potential sex offender is aware of the possible consequences of being caught.

I meant in the court of public opinion