How will Scotland vote come September 18th?

[Hibrandenburg]

As it says on the tin. We've had threads on how each individual is going to vote on here and the result is a quite overwhelming Yes. This pretty much reflects what I'm reading elsewhere on other forums I'm involved in and my Facebook feed as well. However the opinion polls all seem to show a different story.

My question is, how do you think the referendum will turnout and why you think this?

[Peevemor]

As it says on the tin. We've had threads on how each individual is going to vote on here and the result is a quite overwhelming Yes. This pretty much reflects what I'm reading elsewhere on other forums I'm involved in and my Facebook feed as well. However the opinion polls all seem to show a different story.

My question is, how do you think the referendum will turnout and why you think this?

Sadly I expect a no, but only by 2-3%.

I'm desperate to be proved wrong though! :pray:

[adhibs]

My mate was saying at the weekend that his snp councilor uncle is very confident that yes is ahead and will win. Seems to be be based on the feedback from out on the street and that out of the people coming out who dont normally vote, the large majority are backing independance.

Whether thats true or not who knows, not long too find out anyway

[Peevemor]

My mate was saying at the weekend that his uncle who is a snp councilor is very confident that yes is ahead and will win. Seems to be be based on the feedback from out on the street and that out of the people coming out who dont normally vote, the large majority are backing independance.

Whether thats true or not who knows, not long too find out anyway

One of my Yes activist pals posted this on Facebook yesterday.



So it would seem I live in Glasgow's answer to Banff and Buchan!!! First half of my canvass return for the local area- Yes 88%, No 6%, Undecided 6%. In the words of that great Labour leader, 'I'm astonished!' Genuinely surprised at the level of support in what is a middle class area. Heartening to see so many Yes posters going up too. Lots of reports of similar returns in other areas of Glasgow as well

:pray: :pray:

[Stranraer]

I'm still waiting to see post-debate polls and if they show an increase in support for Yes. For some reason I think those who support independence are more likely to come out and vote so I will say Yes will win it. Wishful thinking maybe but the No campaign offers nothing positive for Scotland within the UK.

[Fergus52]

As I posted on the other thread the RIC's mass canvass looked very promising for yes.

Polls only ask people who have been in the electoral role for a while and many of the yes campaigns supporters have not voted for years or never voted at all.

Arthur scargill also came out saying that yes was ahead but Murdochs media didn't want us knowing, I don't know how he'd know that information though.

Many of my friends who were no voters just a few weeks ago have came out in favour of yes now as well.

So in short, I think we'll get the vote!

[CropleyWasGod]

55-45 for No.

Reasons:-

1. the majority of Scots are, by nature, resistant to wholesale quick changes.

2. the "silent majority" are less inclined to shout from the rooftops what their intentions are.

[Beefster]

55-45 for No.

Reasons:-

1. the majority of Scots are, by nature, resistant to wholesale quick changes.

2. the "silent majority" are less inclined to shout from the rooftops what their intentions are.

In a nutshell. The folk that really really want either result make the most heat (wind, pish etc).

[Sylar]

I know of a friend who has already submitted their postal vote and it's 1-0 to the No camp :greengrin

[over the line]

55-45 for No.

Reasons:-

1. the majority of Scots are, by nature, resistant to wholesale quick changes.

2. the "silent majority" are less inclined to shout from the rooftops what their intentions are.

I think it is almost to close to call now. But I agree with the above points and I also think there will be a good few who are saying Yes out loud, but they will have doubts and fears and when it comes to the vote they will go for No.

If I have to say one way or the other, I think a slight majority to No.

[allmodcons]

As I posted on the other thread the RIC's mass canvass looked very promising for yes.

Polls only ask people who have been in the electoral role for a while and many of the yes campaigns supporters have not voted for years or never voted at all.

Arthur scargill also came out saying that yes was ahead but Murdochs media didn't want us knowing, I don't know how he'd know that information though.

Many of my friends who were no voters just a few weeks ago have came out in favour of yes now as well.

So in short, I think we'll get the vote!

I've been out doing a fair bit of canvassing (something I've never done before) and, without getting too excited, we are picking up on quite a few who are moving from 'No' straight across to 'Yes'. Had a family of 5 voters in one household last week who were all 'No' voters only 4 weeks ago and have now come over to 'Yes'.

IMO a fair proportion of the 'No' vote is very soft.

[Pretty Boy]

I think Nos will win.

The momentum is with Yes imo and I think it will be close but I think there is a bit of the 'shy Tory factor' of 1992 fame to admitting to voting no at the moment.

The Yes campaign are far more vocal and in your face and I think this leads people to believe they are a sizeable majority.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think Nos will win.

The momentum is with Yes imo and I think it will be close but I think there is a bit of the 'shy Tory factor' of 1992 fame to admitting to voting no at the moment.

The Yes campaign are far more vocal and in your face and I think this leads people to believe they are a sizeable majority.

Otherwise known as Social Desirability Bias. The thing about this is it doesn't apply to what you might think is desirable down the pub or at your work or wherever. It specifically applies to your interaction with the polling company. If the polling company is represented either in person or in your mind's eye as a smart, metropolitan, probably English-based organisation, it may well be the Yes voters that are more shy. Certainly the face-to-face (TNS) and telephone (MORI) polls are tending to produce much bigger No leads than the anonymous online pollsters.

When the referendum was called, I expected a No win by at least 20 points and probably more. Now, I still think No will win but it's by no means a certainty and I'd be surprised if the Yes vote was <45%.

I also think that the campaign has normalised independence as an idea. Even if we miss it this time, I think the only way it can be avoided in the future is by a suppression of Scottish identity and its replacement with Britishness. I just can't see where that's going to come from. I'm now overwhelmingly confident of seeing independence in my lifetime (assuming normalish lifespan!) Which is good, cos it's not like I've got anything to look forward to with Hibs ... :rolleyes:

[Hibs Class]

I think it will be very close, much closer than if I'd been asked a year ago. So close that the opinion polls are now no real indicator of the outcome (other than it'll be close! :greengrin)

I think many people will be voting with their heart, whichever way they vote, which in some ways is a good thing as gut feel can be as justifiable a reason as any. But I think it also reflects the poor quality of debate and information, on both sides, when you strip noise and emotion out of it. It has become increasingly difficult to differentiate between facts, opinions, vision and lies.

Both sides could be characterised as running a "project fear" and the effect of that on the undecideds is one of the big unknowns for me.

[adhibs]

I know of a friend who has already submitted their postal vote and it's 1-0 to the No camp :greengrin

draw :wink:

[Stranraer]

I think it will be very close, much closer than if I'd been asked a year ago. So close that the opinion polls are now no real indicator of the outcome (other than it'll be close! :greengrin)

I think many people will be voting with their heart, whichever way they vote, which in some ways is a good thing as gut feel can be as justifiable a reason as any. But I think it also reflects the poor quality of debate and information, on both sides, when you strip noise and emotion out of it. It has become increasingly difficult to differentiate between facts, opinions, vision and lies.

Both sides could be characterised as running a "project fear" and the effect of that on the undecideds is one of the big unknowns for me.

I think you have a good point here, this morning I received a "Your choice" Yes campaign leaflet along with a poster about a meeting that is being held locally and inside there is a postcard that reads "a No vote means cuts to the NHS".

[Gatecrasher]

I think it will be very close, much closer than if I'd been asked a year ago. So close that the opinion polls are now no real indicator of the outcome (other than it'll be close! :greengrin)

I think many people will be voting with their heart, whichever way they vote, which in some ways is a good thing as gut feel can be as justifiable a reason as any. But I think it also reflects the poor quality of debate and information, on both sides, when you strip noise and emotion out of it. It has become increasingly difficult to differentiate between facts, opinions, vision and lies.

Both sides could be characterised as running a "project fear" and the effect of that on the undecideds is one of the big unknowns for me.

:top marks

I'm not sure how it's going to go, I think No might edge it.

[Beefster]

It has become increasingly difficult to differentiate between facts, opinions, vision and lies.

One of my big bugbears. The amount of utter mince/opinion being paraded as fact is staggering.

[hibsbollah]

I think its over. The No's have it. Even with 19% undecided almost all the undecideds would have to fall to Yes to overturn the lead. If I had to predict numbers I'd say a final margin of 56-44.

[snooky]

I think there's a very good chance that it will be close although personally I'd like to see the winning side win by a substantial majority as, in the aftermath, it will be less divisive.

Interestingly enough, I think a good few 'yes' voters will change to 'no' at the polls because of the natural characteristic of being afraid of change.
On the other hand, a friend of mine thinks the contrary. His view is that some 'no' voters will vote 'yes' at the booth so as not to be 'blamed' in the event of a 'no' win.

Que sera sera.
:saltireflag

[Bristolhibby]

I think its over. The No's have it. Even with 19% undecided almost all the undecideds would have to fall to Yes to overturn the lead. If I had to predict numbers I'd say a final margin of 56-44.

Keh? Glasgow is out at 51:49 Yes. These figures appear to be backed up by grass root canvassing. It will be by a baw hair, and IMO Yes will take it.

J

[marinello59]

I think its over. The No's have it. Even with 19% undecided almost all the undecideds would have to fall to Yes to overturn the lead. If I had to predict numbers I'd say a final margin of 56-44.

It's all still to play for. It's going to be really close.

[Peevemor]

I think there's a very good chance that it will be close although personally I'd like to see the winning side win by a substantial majority as, in the aftermath, it will be less divisive.

Interestingly enough, I think a good few 'yes' voters will change to 'no' at the polls because of the natural characteristic of being afraid of change.
On the other hand, a friend of mine thinks the contrary. His view is that some 'no' voters will vote 'yes' at the booth so as not to be 'blamed' in the event of a 'no' win.

Que sera sera.
:saltireflag

What the opinion polls don't account for are those that can't be bothered voting. Out of those who ordinarily may not vote, I reckon those who want change, ie. the yessers, will be the ones to make an effort.

[johnbc70]

Like most I was predicting a no but I think the yes vote may just swing it. Reason being as many have pointed out it will be the yes voters that make the effort. If the no campaign had any sense it would be making sure their supporter's go out and vote.

[Onceinawhile]

53-47 in favour of no. 352 spoiled ballots.

I think it will happen though, probably not for 50-100 years though.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm YES and have been since I first voted for the SNP in the general election of 1979. For me its a vote of the heart as well as the head and always has been.

Up until a few months ago I would have predicted a reasonably comfortable victory for the no camp, but it does seem to me that things will be a lot closer than I thought. I honestly think that better together have shot themselves in the foot somewhat with the currency issue. It may be the case that it really isn't an option from their point of view. But for many people it looks more and more like one of two things.

A) ........ Scaremongering to frighten people into voting no.

B) ........ A promise to punish the people of Scotland if they vote yes by maliciously denying us access to something we should have a part share in anyway.

Don't get me wrong ........ I'm not stupid enough to think it will all be plain sailing if we do vote yes. But even putting aside my admitted bias, if you listen to the better together camp you would think that Scotland is a second rate nation which is only prevented from plunging into 'Third World' chaos by the largess of our charitable caretaker south of the border.

If theres two things the average Scot hates its having his or her arm twisted by bullies, or being told their country is second rate.

I still think it will be a narrow no vote because for one thing folk who were thinking yes will get cold feet at the last minute.

It will be interesting following a no vote to hear the collective 'better together' supporters explain why after 300 years of union the UK has been so good for Scotland that, in their obvious opinion, it is so utterly unprepared to be a successful independent country.

[Jonnyboy]

All this so called TV debating, bluff and bluster, claim and counter claim is a right royal pain in the ass IMO. I see it as a fight to persuade the undecided as IMO the vast majority of those who will bother to vote have already decided which way they will vote

[Beefster]

Keh? Glasgow is out at 51:49 Yes. These figures appear to be backed up by grass root canvassing. It will be by a baw hair, and IMO Yes will take it.

J

I've been approached by some Yes campaigners on a couple of occasions and told them I was voting yes just because I couldn't be arsed with the pestering and/or abuse. C31's post about his experience with some Yes street campaigners is not the first (or second, third etc) time I've heard something like that.

It might not be apparent unless you are up here but as someone said (in the PM forum), there is a silent, probably, majority who don't shout about the referendum all the time.


What the opinion polls don't account for are those that can't be bothered voting. Out of those who ordinarily may not vote, I reckon those who want change, ie. the yessers, will be the ones to make an effort.

The turnout will be ridiculously high IMHO. Very few will not make an effort to vote.

[Peevemor]

I've been approached by some Yes campaigners on a couple of occasions and told them I was voting yes just because I couldn't be arsed with the pestering and/or abuse. C31's post about his experience with some Yes street campaigners is not the first (or second, third etc) time I've heard something like that.

It might not be apparent unless you are up here but as someone said (in the PM forum), there is a silent, probably, majority who don't shout about the referendum all the time.



The turnout will be ridiculously high IMHO. Very few will not make an effort to vote.

The turnout for the 1997 referendum was only just over 60% which is ridiculously low IMO. It's been suggested that the turnout in 3 weeks time could be "as high as" 80%. The idea that 1 in 5 people may not bother voting in the most important poll in modern history apalls me.

[heretoday]

The turnout for the 1997 referendum was only just over 60% which is ridiculously low IMO. It's been suggested that the turnout in 3 weeks time could be "as high as" 80%. The idea that 1 in 5 people may not bother voting in the most important poll in modern history apalls me.

It's amazing isn't it? Ignorant numbskulls.

Voting should be compulsory as in Oz. Maybe it will be if Salmond wins the day.

[ronaldo7]

If we win or come close in Glasgow, I think we can do it. All to play for.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/city-backs-yes-says-new-poll-178076n.25170988

[CapitalGreen]

It's amazing isn't it? Ignorant numbskulls.

Voting should be compulsory as in Oz. Maybe it will be if Salmond wins the day.

Some polls I have seen have don't knows around 20%, who should these people vote for in a Yes/No election? Better to have a lower turnout of informed voters than a full turnout by forcing people into voting who are unsure of what they want.

[blaikie]

I'm flying out to Kos on the 18th so regardless of the result im getting pissed!

In all seriousness 51:49 Yes!!!

[The Baldmans Comb]

There is a real feeling on the ground that Scottish people are beginning to realise that power is everything and who better to run your life than the people who actually live and work in Scotland.

This is how every other country in the world operates so why should Scotland be any different.

The No vote is soft as it's based on fear and punishment and I have far to much self respect to be treated as dirt hence with all the momentum with Yes I will go 52 to 48.

[Sir David Gray]

I think there will be a "no" vote next month although I think it will be a lot closer than if it had been held a year ago.

I think it will be a 60-40 split or closer.

[Peevemor]

Some polls I have seen have don't knows around 20%, who should these people vote for in a Yes/No election? Better to have a lower turnout of informed voters than a full turnout by forcing people into voting who are unsure of what they want.


We've all made difficult decisions at one time or another. By the time the day comes, we'll all be saturated with information, disinformation, whatever - more than enough to make up our minds. If it's still 50/50 in your head then go with your gut feeling.

What's happening is enormous and anyone who's entitled to vote but doesn't should be ashamed.

[CapitalGreen]

We've all made difficult decisions at one time or another. By the time the day comes, we'll all be saturated with information, disinformation, whatever - more than enough to make up our minds. If it's still 50/50 in your head then go with your gut feeling.

What's happening is enormous and anyone who's entitled to vote but doesn't should be ashamed.

Choosing not to vote is a democratic right as much as voting is.

It's easy for people who have made up their mind to say people should know what way to vote come Sept 18th but this is an important decision and one which a number of people will be worried about getting wrong.

[heretoday]

I think there will be a "no" vote next month although I think it will be a lot closer than if it had been held a year ago.

I think it will be a 60-40 split or closer.

I reckon it'll be much closer than that. I'd rather it was a landslide either way personally so there are fewer comebacks afterwards.

[Bristolhibby]

Some polls I have seen have don't knows around 20%, who should these people vote for in a Yes/No election? Better to have a lower turnout of informed voters than a full turnout by forcing people into voting who are unsure of what they want.

Go and spoil your ballot. Affirmative action.

J

[NAE NOOKIE]

Choosing not to vote is a democratic right as much as voting is.

It's easy for people who have made up their mind to say people should know what way to vote come Sept 18th but this is an important decision and one which a number of people will be worried about getting wrong.

Fine so long as you also give up the right to moan about. The economy, education, social services, the environment, law and order, the EU, immigration, the weather etc, etc, etc.

[snooky]

I'm YES and have been since I first voted for the SNP in the general election of 1979. For me its a vote of the heart as well as the head and always has been.

Up until a few months ago I would have predicted a reasonably comfortable victory for the no camp, but it does seem to me that things will be a lot closer than I thought. I honestly think that better together have shot themselves in the foot somewhat with the currency issue. It may be the case that it really isn't an option from their point of view. But for many people it looks more and more like one of two things.

A) ........ Scaremongering to frighten people into voting no.

B) ........ A promise to punish the people of Scotland if they vote yes by maliciously denying us access to something we should have a part share in anyway.

Don't get me wrong ........ I'm not stupid enough to think it will all be plain sailing if we do vote yes. But even putting aside my admitted bias, if you listen to the better together camp you would think that Scotland is a second rate nation which is only prevented from plunging into 'Third World' chaos by the largess of our charitable caretaker south of the border.

If theres two things the average Scot hates its having his or her arm twisted by bullies, or being told their country is second rate.

I still think it will be a narrow no vote because for one thing folk who were thinking yes will get cold feet at the last minute.

It will be interesting following a no vote to hear the collective 'better together' supporters explain why after 300 years of union the UK has been so good for Scotland that, in their obvious opinion, it is so utterly unprepared to be a successful independent country.

Agree 100%, NN

[CapitalGreen]

Fine so long as you also give up the right to moan about. The economy, education, social services, the environment, law and order, the EU, immigration, the weather etc, etc, etc.

I'm in favour of increasing the rights of the people, not reducing them. Free will and choice should be the cornerstones of a modern society.

[marinello59]

It will be interesting following a no vote to hear the collective 'better together' supporters explain why after 300 years of union the UK has been so good for Scotland that, in their obvious opinion, it is so utterly unprepared to be a successful independent country.

Nobody is saying that Scotland can't be a successful independent country. :confused:

[Beefster]

Nobody is saying that Scotland can't be a successful independent country. :confused:

A fair number of yes supporters seem unable to that anyone could think that Scotland could go it alone and still vote no.

It's going to be a bloodbath post-referendum IMHO.

[hibsbollah]

Keh? Glasgow is out at 51:49 Yes. These figures appear to be backed up by grass root canvassing. It will be by a baw hair, and IMO Yes will take it.

J

Id be more inclined to believe objective independent polling (which hasnt shifted appreciably in months) than what you're describing. If you think about it im sure you'd agree.

In May the No lead was in single digits, UKIP were just about to win the Euro elections down south (providing what should have been a boost for Yes) and there was an emerging elderly social care scandal potentially bbreaking in England. I said on here that I expected Yes to go into the lead in June on the back of this and some other political developments, but it just hasnt happened.

Its possible im wrong, but it seems unlikely that theres a significant cohort of secret Yes voters who aren't telling the pollsters anything until the big day.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm in favour of increasing the rights of the people, not reducing them. Free will and choice should be the cornerstones of a modern society.

I'm not saying folk should be made to vote CG but you can hardly complain about the people running the place when you made a conscious decision not to vote. If you voted for the folk screwing things up you can be angry at them for screwing up and letting you down. If you didn't you can feel sanctimonious coz you voted for the other guy.

One things for sure. If you don't vote it will only be by accident that you ever get the society you want. Where I live the SNP have never come close to ousting the Liberals, but I still vote at every election, conscious of the fact that in some parts of the world folk walk for miles and queue for hours to vote under threat of being beaten or shot.

For every person in this country who makes an informed decision not to vote, there are a hundred who just cant be arsed. Not so much an exercise in free will as an exercise in being a lazy bar steward.

[Peevemor]

Id be more inclined to believe objective independent polling (which hasnt shifted appreciably in months) than what you're describing. If you think about it im sure you'd agree.

In May the No lead was in single digits, UKIP were just about to win the Euro elections down south (providing what should have been a boost for Yes) and there was an emerging elderly social care scandal potentially bbreaking in England. I said on here that I expected Yes to go into the lead in June on the back of this and some other political developments, but it just hasnt happened.

Its possible im wrong, but it seems unlikely that theres a significant cohort of secret Yes voters who aren't telling the pollsters anything until the big day.

It still comes down to who actually votes (4 out of 10 registered voters didn't bother in the 97 referendum). I think the yes proportion will increase because the supporters appear more "up for it", but I doubt it'll be enough to win the day.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not saying folk should be made to vote CG but you can hardly complain about the people running the place when you made a conscious decision not to vote. If you voted for the folk screwing things up you can be angry at them for screwing up and letting you down. If you didn't you can feel sanctimonious coz you voted for the other guy.

One things for sure. If you don't vote it will only be by accident that you ever get the society you want. Where I live the SNP have never come close to ousting the Liberals, but I still vote at every election, conscious of the fact that in some parts of the world folk walk for miles and queue for hours to vote under threat of being beaten or shot.

For every person in this country who makes an informed decision not to vote, there are a hundred who just cant be arsed. Not so much an exercise in free will as an exercise in being a lazy bar steward.

A refusal to vote is a political act in itself.

I would always go to the polling booth, and spoil my paper if need be. However, I reckon I'm in the minority; the fact that turnout in recent years has been so low reflects the apathy and the distrust that people have towards politicians. That they (the politicians) haven't yet found a way of reaching out to the disaffected reflects badly on them, IMO, not the electorate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Latest poll, and the first post 2nd debate YES 47% No 53%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8947

[NAE NOOKIE]

A fair number of yes supporters seem unable to that anyone could think that Scotland could go it alone and still vote no.

It's going to be a bloodbath post-referendum IMHO.

Not me Beefster ... I am happy to admit that people have many reasons to want Scotland to remain in the UK.

But as I see it the no side have worked very hard putting forward the case that Scotland will be goosed if it goes it alone and that the rest of the world will be queuing up to make it happen, including it appears the UK.

1) The EU wont let Scotland join ....... the only real danger to that is possible selfish Spanish self interest.
2) The UK wont even negotiate a shared currency ...... So much for narrow minded nationalism on this side of the border.
3) The shipyards will all go tits up ....... even though countries of a similar size to us have thriving commercial yards.
4) And my personal favourite: Scotland wont be able to defend its self against .... erm who ... Russia?, China? England? I cant see the Americans or NATO sitting back while the Russians annex Scotland. Our biggest threat is from a few rogue Spanish fishing boats, I'm sure we will be able to rustle up enough of a navy to deal with that.
5) Every major business will pull out of Scotland ..... The inference being that we wont have the brains or nous to find a way to make most of them stay or attract firms to replace the ones who do go.
6) An oil fund wont be possible ..... Better to try than do what the UK has done with the money so far.

It will not be a literal bloodbath post referendum. But I for one would feel entitled to ask why Scotland has sunk so low as a going concern as part of this union which is supposed to be so good for us.

But if it is a no vote heres something to consider. What if there is an English backlash to this. What if one day ( lets say when the oil runs out ) the English decide to cut loose the burden most of them appear to think Scotland is. Look at the rise of UKIP ........ is it such a stretch of imagination to predict the rise of an EIP from the loins of such a party.

Given the fact that Scotland according to better together will be a hell of a lot worse off separate from the UK would it not be a good idea to find ways to make us as little dependant on this union as possible ....... just in case like.

[Peevemor]

Latest poll, and the first post 2nd debate YES 47% No 53%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8947

The last ICM poll before the 97 referendum for the question "should there be a Scottish Parliament" showed

Yes 63%
No 25%
Don't know 12%

The referendum result was

Yes 74.3%
No 25.7%

from http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/1997ScottishReferendumAnalysis.pdf

Just sayin' likes! :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Nobody is saying that Scotland can't be a successful independent country. :confused:

Nobody is openly stating it in those terms but there is loads of background noise about how we'll not be able to afford pensions, the economy will collapse because of currency choice, we'll be like Panama, we'll be less wealthy than Pakistan. The mood music is pretty clear.

Actually, and this feels strange to write, my respect for David Cameron has actually gone up during the referendum campaign. He recognises we will be successful and presents a positive case that he admits is largely emotional. Shame you weren't showing that love over all the years your backbenchers were calling us subsidy junkies, eh Dave? :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

The last ICM poll before the 97 referendum for the question "should there be a Scottish Parliament" showed

Yes 63%
No 25%
Don't know 12%

The referendum result was

Yes 74.3%
No 25.7%

from http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/1997ScottishReferendumAnalysis.pdf

Just sayin' likes! :greengrin

As much as I like your sentiment, since the result excludes those that didn't vote, the poll is 63/88 = 71.6% ex DK. We have no way of knowing if the DKs voted or not or even if they said they were going to vote or not.

[Peevemor]

As much as I like your sentiment, since the result excludes those that didn't vote, the poll is 63/88 = 71.6% ex DK. We have no way of knowing if the DKs voted or not or even if they said they were going to vote or not.

Nor do we know how many of the yes or nos included in the opinion polls didn't vote on the day. I was simply interested in comparing the final result with the opinion polls, and I have to say that a similar swing this time round wouldn't displease me.

[JeMeSouviens]

A fair number of yes supporters seem unable to that anyone could think that Scotland could go it alone and still vote no.

It's going to be a bloodbath post-referendum IMHO.

I must admit I find it impossible to enter the mindset where I could be successfully independent but would choose dependency, for me individually or for Scotland. I understand people who feel British and choose Britain but not people who feel Scottish and choose Britain. I respect their right to feel that but I can't imagine feeling it myself.

I disagree about the bloodbath. The actual campaigners for Y are people who have lived through the 79 referendum, the Tory years and 92 in particular. There will be a period of despondency if we lose but I think people will come to realise we've slid a hell of a long way further down the slippery slope in the last few years even if we don't get to the bottom this time. :wink:

[marinello59]

Not me Beefster ... I am happy to admit that people have many reasons to want Scotland to remain in the UK.

But as I see it the no side have worked very hard putting forward the case that Scotland will be goosed if it goes it alone and that the rest of the world will be queuing up to make it happen, including it appears the UK.

1) The EU wont let Scotland join ....... the only real danger to that is possible selfish Spanish self interest.
2) The UK wont even negotiate a shared currency ...... So much for narrow minded nationalism on this side of the border.
3) The shipyards will all go tits up ....... even though countries of a similar size to us have thriving commercial yards.
4) And my personal favourite: Scotland wont be able to defend its self against .... erm who ... Russia?, China? England? I cant see the Americans or NATO sitting back while the Russians annex Scotland. Our biggest threat is from a few rogue Spanish fishing boats, I'm sure we will be able to rustle up enough of a navy to deal with that.
5) Every major business will pull out of Scotland ..... The inference being that we wont have the brains or nous to find a way to make most of them stay or attract firms to replace the ones who do go.
6) An oil fund wont be possible ..... Better to try than do what the UK has done with the money so far.

It will not be a literal bloodbath post referendum. But I for one would feel entitled to ask why Scotland has sunk so low as a going concern as part of this union which is supposed to be so good for us.

But if it is a no vote heres something to consider. What if there is an English backlash to this. What if one day ( lets say when the oil runs out ) the English decide to cut loose the burden most of them appear to think Scotland is. Look at the rise of UKIP ........ is it such a stretch of imagination to predict the rise of an EIP from the loins of such a party.

Given the fact that Scotland according to better together will be a hell of a lot worse off separate from the UK would it not be a good idea to find ways to make us as little dependant on this union as possible ....... just in case like.

Scotland hasn't sunk so low. It's still one of the best countries in the world to live and work in and to pretend otherwise would be dishonest and reeks of talking Scotland and it's people down. If Scotland votes No next month, and I really hope we don't, then it's not the No side we should be questioning, it's those leading the Yes campaign. However I feel that Salmond and co. have upped their game significantly over the past couple of weeks so fingers crossed, the apparent momentum we have gained can get us over the line.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nor do we know how many of the yes or nos included in the opinion polls didn't vote on the day. I was simply interested in comparing the final result with the opinion polls, and I have to say that a similar swing this time round wouldn't displease me.

Cool, if you like that sort of thing have a look at 2011. :aok: I think a better direct comparison since the demonisation of cybernats, deluded bravehearts etc was in full swing, versus 1997 which had the "settled will" and all that.

[Beefster]

I must admit I find it impossible to enter the mindset where I could be successfully independent but would choose dependency, for me individually or for Scotland. I understand people who feel British and choose Britain but not people who feel Scottish and choose Britain. I respect their right to feel that but I can't imagine feeling it myself.

I disagree about the bloodbath. The actual campaigners for Y are people who have lived through the 79 referendum, the Tory years and 92 in particular. There will be a period of despondency if we lose but I think people will come to realise we've slid a hell of a long way further down the slippery slope in the last few years even if we don't get to the bottom this time. :wink:

Personally, I feel Scottish first but I also feel British. That might be because Mrs Beefster and her family are English but IIRC I felt like that before I met her too.

We shall see post-referendum. I'd like to think that everyone will be big boys and girls whatever the result but, considering some of the behaviour pre-referendum, I can't see it.

[Peevemor]

Cool, if you like that sort of thing have a look at 2011. :aok: I think a better direct comparison since the demonisation of cybernats, deluded bravehearts etc was in full swing, versus 1997 which had the "settled will" and all that.

I think if anything, my comparison indicates that, out of those who were for keeping the status quo in the opinion polls, a smaller percentage voted on the day.

[stoneyburn hibs]

As early as last week I was of the opinion that it will be a no vote by about 5%.I Put some of that down to me being Scottish and glass half empty.Today I have just delivered the latest paper run for the Yes campaign in my area, around 400 houses. On my round today I did see an increase of houses declaring Yes and No, about a 4 to 1 ratio for yes. My occupation means that I'm in private dwellings almost all of the time and more often than not IT comes up in conversation.
From what I have heard/seen, I'm convinced its going to be a Yes.
I will no doubt get grief for this but I really do think that this will be a class vote to an extent.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Scotland hasn't sunk so low. It's still one of the best countries in the world to live and work in and to pretend otherwise would be dishonest and reeks of talking Scotland and it's people down. If Scotland votes No next month, and I really hope we don't, then it's not the No side we should be questioning, it's those leading the Yes campaign. However I feel that Salmond and co. have upped their game significantly over the past couple of weeks so fingers crossed, the apparent momentum we have gained can get us over the line.

Which is the point my post was making .......... that is exactly what the better together camp are saying. That Scotland does fine just now thanks to being propped up by the UK, but will be a comparative failure if it goes it alone. I mean thats what they are telling us is it not. My question therefor is ................... why has Scotland been rendered incapable of taking care of itself if being part of the UK has been so good for it? That doesn't sound like a country in good health to me.

[marinello59]

Which is the point my post was making .......... that is exactly what the better together camp are saying. That Scotland does fine just now thanks to being propped up by the UK, but will be a comparative failure if it goes it alone. I mean thats what they are telling us is it not. My question therefor is ................... why has Scotland been rendered incapable of taking care of itself if being part of the UK has been so good for it? That doesn't sound like a country in good health to me.

Scotland has not been rendered incapable of taking care of itself. Even the No camp thinks better of us than that. The argument is not about can Scotland go it alone. It is about should Scotland go it alone.

[tcm1875]

Personally, I feel Scottish first but I also feel British. That might be because Mrs Beefster and her family are English but IIRC I felt like that before I met her too.

We shall see post-referendum. I'd like to think that everyone will be big boys and girls whatever the result but, considering some of the behaviour pre-referendum, I can't see it.

Just out of interest, do they feel English or British. Or Scottish even .....

[Moulin Yarns]

Which is the point my post was making .......... that is exactly what the better together camp are saying. That Scotland does fine just now thanks to being propped up by the UK, but will be a comparative failure if it goes it alone. I mean thats what they are telling us is it not. My question therefor is ................... why has Scotland been rendered incapable of taking care of itself if being part of the UK has been so good for it? That doesn't sound like a country in good health to me.


This to anybody that is intending to vote No. Since when has Scotland been "propped up by the UK"?

Certainly not since Oil first flowed from the North sea. Even without the oil Scotland is as well off, if not better off than the UK as a whole.

Scotland is perfectly capable of taking care of itself, it just needs the wherewithall to be allowed to do so. A yes vote would provide that by freeing Scotland from the shackles of the Block grant (or pocket money as I prefer to think of it.) and allowing Scotland full tax raising powers, not the sham that is the Scotland 2012 Act where Scotland gets to raise some money, but loses everything it raises from the block grant so we are no better off with so called 'tax raising powers'.

Think of it like this, Scotland has the chance of getting a job and earning its own money for the first time, or stay at home and live off the bank of mum and dad, and keep taking the pocket money.

[Pretty Boy]

Just out of interest, do they feel English or British. Or Scottish even .....

Can't answer for Beefster but my girlfriend was born and raised in England although her Mum and her side of the family are Scottish.

She considers herself English because that's where she was born and brought up. I consider myself Scottish as opposed to British. I really don't know many people (anecdotal evidence alert) who consider themselves British. I think it's something the English have generally felt more comfortable with than the Scots though.

[The Modfather]

Can't answer for Beefster but my girlfriend was born and raised in England although her Mum and her side of the family are Scottish.

She considers herself English because that's where she was born and brought up. I consider myself Scottish as opposed to British. I really don't know many people (anecdotal evidence alert) who consider themselves British. I think it's something the English have generally felt more comfortable with than the Scots though.

I'd agree with that. My mrs is from Derby, but her Dads side of the family are from Scotland and moved down to England 40 odd years ago. She classes herself as British, not English, or Half English half Scottish. Having never considered myself British I can't understand it, but that's how she sees it so fair enough.

I'm currently calculating the fallout of locking her in the house on the 18th as we're voting different ways ;)

[Beefster]

Just out of interest, do they feel English or British. Or Scottish even .....

English first but British a close second apparently. Her Dad/Sister will be the same as her, I'd imagine. Her Mum is Irish so it doesn't really apply.

[Dinkydoo]

I think the outcome will be 'No' by 5 - 7%. It will all be very embarrassing and David Cameron will appear even more smug than usual but it won't be the end of the world. The Yes campaign will have a lot to answer for.

That might just be me being a pessimistic Scot though!

[JimBHibees]

I think the outcome will be 'No' by 5 - 7%. It will all be very embarrassing and David Cameron will appear even more smug than usual but it won't be the end of the world. The Yes campaign will have a lot to answer for.

That might just be me being a pessimistic Scot though!

Why? They have had to fight against a very one sided press and are only just getting their message across in tv debates. The more I see of these debates the less I think Better Together have than be happy with what you have got.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think the outcome will be 'No' by 5 - 7%. It will all be very embarrassing and David Cameron will appear even more smug than usual but it won't be the end of the world. The Yes campaign will have a lot to answer for.

That might just be me being a pessimistic Scot though!

The YES campaign as far as I can see have done a pretty good job in the face of overwhelming media imbalance and the NO campaigns attempts to spread nothing short of fear.

Believe me ..... if its no the SNP and any other party with the good of Scotland's people at heart will be far too busy finding ways to combat the affects of the English political backlash to find time to explain what went wrong.

Anybody who thinks that Scotland is going to be allowed to sail on after a no vote without its slice of the UK pie being seriously reconsidered and re evaluated by English politicians under pressure from their constituents, egged on by the vastly right wing UK press, is at best hugely optimistic, at worst deluded.

[Moulin Yarns]

Some folks need to make their mind up.

I saw this in Birnam toady and had a wee chuckle.



13413

[adhibs]

If the post on the private board is right that yes is ahead in every age group bar the 60+ one, that'd partly explain the high level of yes voters in the polls on here. I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. My gran told me she was voting no at the weekend, she also told me we had a president called brown.

I also know of two people now who have both been sent two poll cards, posted to different addresses and for different polling stations. Theie voting for opposite sides so evens out but surely the council should be getting this right.

[Dinkydoo]

Why? They have had to fight against a very one sided press and are only just getting their message across in tv debates. The more I see of these debates the less I think Better Together have than be happy with what you have got.

I think you've answered your own question - "They are only just getting their message across in TV debates", weeks before the vote actually takes place.


The YES campaign as far as I can see have done a pretty good job in the face of overwhelming media imbalance and the NO campaigns attempts to spread nothing short of fear.

Believe me ..... if its no the SNP and any other party with the good of Scotland's people at heart will be far too busy finding ways to combat the affects of the English political backlash to find time to explain what went wrong.

Anybody who thinks that Scotland is going to be allowed to sail on after a no vote without its slice of the UK pie being seriously reconsidered and re evaluated by English politicians under pressure from their constituents, egged on by the vastly right wing UK press, is at best hugely optimistic, at worst deluded.

I don't really disagree with any of that however if it is a No then in the end YES hasn't done it's job. Not being able to convince a majority of voters to vote for independence, considering the strength of the opposition's argument, would be a complete failure. Recently the YES campaign has stepped it up and I can see a lot of previously 'unsure' voters gradually changing their mind to Yes and although this may on the face of it look like the tide is well and truly turning towards a majority of Yes voters, psychological studies suggest that it takes time for people to be persuaded into changing their opinion on something, especially when discounting cues are present in political campaigns (bias, lack of solid facts ...etc). It takes time for a political message to become disassociated from this bias and therefore gain credibility - only then will people have really been persuaded to vote one way or another when it comes down to the moment when you tick that box.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think you've answered your own question - "They are only just getting their message across in TV debates", weeks before the vote actually takes place.



I don't really disagree with any of that however if it is a No then in the end YES hasn't done it's job. Not being able to convince a majority of voters to vote for independence, considering the strength of the opposition's argument, would be a complete failure. Recently the YES campaign has stepped it up and I can see a lot of previously 'unsure' voters gradually changing their mind to Yes and although this may on the face of it look like the tide is well and truly turning towards a majority of Yes voters, psychological studies suggest that it takes time for people to be persuaded into changing their opinion on something, especially when discounting cues are present in political campaigns (bias, lack of solid facts ...etc). It takes time for a political message to become disassociated from this bias and therefore gain credibility - only then will people have really been persuaded to vote one way or another when it comes down to the moment when you tick that box.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

I would guess though that when both camps headed for the start line the job facing the yes campaign was bigger than the no sides. Even the undecided voters I would guess are more likely to be inclined to the status quo and are undecided because the are yet to be swayed by the independence argument. That's before you start trying to win over the people who began by thinking no.

From that point of view and given the lack of media support the fact that with two weeks to go the vote appears as close as it does is testament to the efforts of the yes campaign. Their job has not been so much persuading folk to vote to leave the UK as it has been to persuade folk to leave their comfort zone ....... that is a very difficult thing to do, human nature being what it is.

[JimBHibees]

I think you've answered your own question - "They are only just getting their message across in TV debates", weeks before the vote

The implication being that the media haven't allowed them to get their message across with the bias of the reporting and selective interpretation.

[ironmike]

The implication being that the media haven't allowed them to get their message across with the bias of the reporting and selective interpretation.

For an example of how the referendum's being reported outside the UK -

http://youtu.be/-H_psPVLk-8

Makes interesting listening!

[Mibbes Aye]

If the post on the private board is right that yes is ahead in every age group bar the 60+ one, that'd partly explain the high level of yes voters in the polls on here. I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. My gran told me she was voting no at the weekend, she also told me we had a president called brown.



I would hope i'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this post.

So far we've seen the suggestion that No voters are scared.

And stupid.

And manipulated by the press.

Now the suggestion that No voters are predominantly old and a subtext about being confused or demented even?

It doesn't say much about what the Yes camp think about Scottish people, when they are so quick to label more than half of them in this regard.

AdHibs, you cited some stats about older people and made comment. Women have consistently polled No in higher numbers than the general polls. Do you have a view on that?

[Peevemor]

The implication being that the media haven't allowed them to get their message across with the bias of the reporting and selective interpretation.

What like this?

http://youtu.be/23m6CukRUGM

Outrageous stuff from Andrew Neil.

[Stranraer]

What like this?

http://youtu.be/23m6CukRUGM

Outrageous stuff from Andrew Neil.

Would I be right in saying he made a pro-union speech along with Flanders?

[NAE NOOKIE]

I would hope i'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this post.

So far we've seen the suggestion that No voters are scared.

And stupid.

And manipulated by the press.

Now the suggestion that No voters are predominantly old and a subtext about being confused or demented even?

It doesn't say much about what the Yes camp think about Scottish people, when they are so quick to label more than half of them in this regard.

AdHibs, you cited some stats about older people and made comment. Women have consistently polled No in higher numbers than the general polls. Do you have a view on that?

Hells bells mate ......... The press can play a big part in the outcome of any election, why do you think politicians work so hard at kissing their erse? Of the many papers in this country just about all of them are in the no camp and most of the biggest ones vociferously so, I mean have you read the Daily Mail or Daily Express lately?. If the press have had an impact on peoples voting intentions ( and history suggests it will have ) it sure as hell isn't for the Yes camp.

Getting the Sun on board was widely acknowledged as a major factor in Tony Blair winning the 1997 general election.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What like this?

http://youtu.be/23m6CukRUGM

Outrageous stuff from Andrew Neil.

loved that got his ass kicked :greengrin

[Peevemor]

loved that got his ass kicked :greengrin

Can't say he deserved it though. :fibber:

[Mibbes Aye]

Hells bells mate ......... The press can play a big part in the outcome of any election, why do you think politicians work so hard at kissing their erse? Of the many papers in this country just about all of them are in the no camp and most of the biggest ones vociferously so, I mean have you read the Daily Mail or Daily Express lately?. If the press have had an impact on peoples voting intentions ( and history suggests it will have ) it sure as hell isn't for the Yes camp.

Getting the Sun on board was widely acknowledged as a major factor in Tony Blair winning the 1997 general election.

Murdoch didn't pick the winners, he identified them and backed them.

The Sun didn't have a choice in 97, Blair was always going to win by a landslide.

Interestingly, Murdoch turned against Brown pre-2010. Despite it being a third-term Labour government, Brown being portrayed as dysfunctional, huge infighting and Labour being blamed for the global crisis, Cameron still failed to win a majority.

And if the press are all so powerful, how come Ed Miliband was able to shut down the NOTW?

[ronaldo7]

Murdoch didn't pick the winners, he identified them and backed them.

The Sun didn't have a choice in 97, Blair was always going to win by a landslide.

Interestingly, Murdoch turned against Brown pre-2010. Despite it being a third-term Labour government, Brown being portrayed as dysfunctional, huge infighting and Labour being blamed for the global crisis, Cameron still failed to win a majority.

And if the press are all so powerful, how come Ed Miliband was able to shut down the NOTW?

Any evidence of this?

Just that I thought they were shut down due to the phone hacking problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14070733

[NAE NOOKIE]

Murdoch didn't pick the winners, he identified them and backed them.

The Sun didn't have a choice in 97, Blair was always going to win by a landslide.

Interestingly, Murdoch turned against Brown pre-2010. Despite it being a third-term Labour government, Brown being portrayed as dysfunctional, huge infighting and Labour being blamed for the global crisis, Cameron still failed to win a majority.

And if the press are all so powerful, how come Ed Miliband was able to shut down the NOTW?

You have a point ......... it doesn't change the fact that the Sun contributed to Blair's landslide. When has a party ever been returned for a 4th term? Murdoch certainly deserted the sinking ship, even his muscle couldn't save brown and he chose to save his own ass.

Given the evidence my local councillor could have shut down the NOTW.

[Mibbes Aye]

Any evidence of this?

Just that I thought they were shut down due to the phone hacking problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14070733

Oh come on. How did it all come out? Who stood up?

Cameron didn't. Salmond didn't. Clegg didn't.

Ed Miliband called for Rebekah Brooks to resign after the Milly Dowler hacking became public.

Ed Miliband called for the public judge-led enquiry into phone hacking.

Ed Miliband called a stop in the News Int take over of BSkyB.

All against opposition.

Someone stood up, took a lead and made a stand. And amongst other things, it led to the demise of the NOTW

[ronaldo7]

Oh come on. How did it all come out? Who stood up?

Cameron didn't. Salmond didn't. Clegg didn't.

Ed Miliband called for Rebekah Brooks to resign after the Milly Dowler hacking became public.

Ed Miliband called for the public judge-led enquiry into phone hacking.

Ed Miliband called a stop in the News Int take over of BSkyB.

All against opposition.

Someone stood up, took a lead and made a stand. And amongst other things, it led to the demise of the NOTW

Whoa...Calm down mate, you'll give yourself a heart attack. I was only asking. Jeezo take a chill.

The polls must be closing soon with Yes on the rise as well as your blood pressure.:greengrin

[GreenLake]

I'm predicting a yes vote by a larger than expected small margin.

Regardless, it will probably be a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". :greengrin

[bawheid]

Oh come on. How did it all come out? Who stood up?

Cameron didn't. Salmond didn't. Clegg didn't.

Ed Miliband called for Rebekah Brooks to resign after the Milly Dowler hacking became public.

Ed Miliband called for the public judge-led enquiry into phone hacking.

Ed Miliband called a stop in the News Int take over of BSkyB.

All against opposition.

Someone stood up, took a lead and made a stand. And amongst other things, it led to the demise of the NOTW

I watched Ed Miliband on the news last night. He was trying to convince us that a Labour government is on the way and that we should stay and be a part of it. I thought his argument was pretty weak. He didn't even seem to believe it himself.

He's in denial too. England is lurching heavily to the right and there's little to no chance of Labour being in power after the next GE. He's a nice man but he's not PM material, and most know it.

The Labour Party is a confused being at the moment. You can sense that their members in Scotland want it to return to its traditional values but their southern colleagues won't let them because it scares off middle England.

I guess that's why more and more of them are turning to Yes.

[JeMeSouviens]

I watched Ed Miliband on the news last night. He was trying to convince us that a Labour government is on the way and that we should stay and be a part of it. I thought his argument was pretty weak. He didn't even seem to believe it himself.

He's in denial too. England is lurching heavily to the right and there's little to no chance of Labour being in power after the next GE. He's a nice man but he's not PM material, and most know it.

The Labour Party is a confused being at the moment. You can sense that their members in Scotland want it to return to its traditional values but their southern colleagues won't let them because it scares off middle England.

I guess that's why more and more of them are turning to Yes.

I can't see any way Labour can win with Milliband's massively negative approval ratings. It would be off the scale unprecedented if they do, anyway.

Mind you, Ruth Davidson seems to think he has a chance. Laughable.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I would hope i'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this post.

So far we've seen the suggestion that No voters are scared.

And stupid.

And manipulated by the press.

Now the suggestion that No voters are predominantly old and a subtext about being confused or demented even?

It doesn't say much about what the Yes camp think about Scottish people, when they are so quick to label more than half of them in this regard.

AdHibs, you cited some stats about older people and made comment. Women have consistently polled No in higher numbers than the general polls. Do you have a view on that?

I think this post scores high on the imagination stakes. The guy merely said that his Gran didn't have much of a clue about politics. To stretch that to the Yes side having an ageist agenda, kind of ties in with all of the other "the sky is falling" stuff that Lament and the rest of them keep saying.

[Just Alf]

I think this post scores high on the imagination stakes. The guy merely said that his Gran didn't have much of a clue about politics. To stretch that to the Yes side having an ageist agenda, kind of ties in with all of the other "the sky is falling" stuff that Lament and the rest of them keep saying.

:agree:

Sorry MA.... you've had some good arguments so far.... that one was a wee bit straw clutching :cb

[allmodcons]

I would hope i'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this post.

So far we've seen the suggestion that No voters are scared.

And stupid.

And manipulated by the press.

Now the suggestion that No voters are predominantly old and a subtext about being confused or demented even?

It doesn't say much about what the Yes camp think about Scottish people, when they are so quick to label more than half of them in this regard.

AdHibs, you cited some stats about older people and made comment. Women have consistently polled No in higher numbers than the general polls. Do you have a view on that?

Some elderly voters are scared and Better Together know it fine well.

You constantly harp on about social justice or what you percieve as a lack of it from the SNP Government, maybe you want try knocking some doors? Speak to an elderly lady telling you she'd like to vote 'Yes' but is voting 'No' because she's been advised her state pension will not be paid in an iScotland.

No truth in that of course, the Department of Work & Pensions have confirmed the state pension will be secure in an iScotland but Better Together like to peddle fear and they do it well. I've taken to printing copies of this letter and handing them to concerned pensioners. Most of the canvassing has been good fun and a great experience, but this particular issue makes me sick.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pensioner-jackpot/#more-58267

You won't want to admit it, but thanks to the fear being peddled by Better Together many of our pensioners are both frigthened and confused.

[Jones28]

People who are registering to vote for the first time will be voting for change IMO. See Obama and his first election win, millions came out to vote for him had never voted before.

Mon the YES

[adhibs]

I would hope i'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this post.

So far we've seen the suggestion that No voters are scared.

And stupid.

And manipulated by the press.

Now the suggestion that No voters are predominantly old and a subtext about being confused or demented even?

It doesn't say much about what the Yes camp think about Scottish people, when they are so quick to label more than half of them in this regard.

AdHibs, you cited some stats about older people and made comment. Women have consistently polled No in higher numbers than the general polls. Do you have a view on that?

appears you are the only one as you seem to have read alot more into it than their actualy is. my grans not constatly in a state of confusion or demented, simply has no interest in politics as shes told me before and never votes. thinking we had a president was a slip of the tounge but between that and thinking gordon brown was the PM I think that shows how little interest she has.

As for women voting in higher numbers against independance, i have no idea why. If we go by better togethers logic its because their too busy getting their kids and husband to eat their cereal, doing other household chores and dont have time to properly think it through so are going with the status quo. I certainly dont agree with that though. In the case of the women i know, the majority of them are voting for independance and some are a lot more vocal about it than the males.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Re being vocal about voting intentions. Could someone explain to me in laymans terms as I have next to no knowledge
/interest in politics why there is a sudden urge for people to broadcast to all and sundry how they will be voting? I've always viewed it as a very personal thing.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I know its not a political vote but, I'm sure you all get my drift.

[DaveF]

Re being vocal about voting intentions. Could someone explain to me in laymans terms as I have next to no knowledge
/interest in politics why there is a sudden urge for people to broadcast to all and sundry how they will be voting? I've always viewed it as a very personal thing.

I just think this vote is energising people far more than a normal election does. It's a once in a generation vote and lots of people on both sides are very passionate about getting the right outcome. Hence, far more outward showings of voting intentions as the race is on to sway as many undecided's as possible to the correct (YES) side :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Whoa...Calm down mate, you'll give yourself a heart attack. I was only asking. Jeezo take a chill.

The polls must be closing soon with Yes on the rise as well as your blood pressure.:greengrin

I'm fine :greengrin

The fact you're not refuting my point is telling though :wink: :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I watched Ed Miliband on the news last night. He was trying to convince us that a Labour government is on the way and that we should stay and be a part of it. I thought his argument was pretty weak. He didn't even seem to believe it himself.

He's in denial too. England is lurching heavily to the right and there's little to no chance of Labour being in power after the next GE. He's a nice man but he's not PM material, and most know it.

The Labour Party is a confused being at the moment. You can sense that their members in Scotland want it to return to its traditional values but their southern colleagues won't let them because it scares off middle England.

I guess that's why more and more of them are turning to Yes.

The polls consistently don't back that up.

The proof will be in the pudding come the GE. But for someone not PM material he's made the running in this Parliament, around phone hacking, around Syria and around the energy companies.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think this post scores high on the imagination stakes. The guy merely said that his Gran didn't have much of a clue about politics. To stretch that to the Yes side having an ageist agenda, kind of ties in with all of the other "the sky is falling" stuff that Lament and the rest of them keep saying.

"...I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. "


Tell me what's not ageist about that?

[Mibbes Aye]

:agree:

Sorry MA.... you've had some good arguments so far.... that one was a wee bit straw clutching :cb

See above :wink:

[DaveF]

"...I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. "


Tell me what's not ageist about that?

I quite enjoy your posts as they are normally well reasoned and thought out, but if it's getting to this level then I won't bother. What a load of rubbish.

[Mibbes Aye]

Some elderly voters are scared and Better Together know it fine well.

You constantly harp on about social justice or what you percieve as a lack of it from the SNP Government, maybe you want try knocking some doors? Speak to an elderly lady telling you she'd like to vote 'Yes' but is voting 'No' because she's been advised her state pension will not be paid in an iScotland.

No truth in that of course, the Department of Work & Pensions have confirmed the state pension will be secure in an iScotland but Better Together like to peddle fear and they do it well. I've taken to printing copies of this letter and handing them to concerned pensioners. Most of the canvassing has been good fun and a great experience, but this particular issue makes me sick.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pensioner-jackpot/#more-58267

You won't want to admit it, but thanks to the fear being peddled by Better Together many of our pensioners are both frigthened and confused.

Still using Wings over Scotland - the blogger who blames Hillsborough on the Liverpool fans? Even if he told me there were seven days in a week I wouldn't quote him on grounds of common decency.

Also, in his letter how many times do we see phrases like "..appears to be"?

Sorry, but I'm not putting my faith on our economic future in the likes of him :rolleyes:

[Mibbes Aye]

I quite enjoy your posts as they are normally well reasoned and thought out, but if it's getting to this level then I won't bother. What a load of rubbish.

Any need for that?

Why is it rubbish?

it suggests that older people's votes aren't worth as much as his/hers.

Explain why that's not ageist?

[ronaldo7]

I'm fine :greengrin

The fact you're not refuting my point is telling though :wink: :greengrin

I'm still waiting on you providing proof on your statement.

This is what you said..."And if the press are all so powerful, how come Ed Miliband was able to shut down the NOTW?

I'm prepared to let you off with it, as I think you came on last night with a scatter gun approach and just shot from the hip.:greengrin

Ed Miliband did not shut down the NOTW.

[DaveF]

Any need for that?

Why is it rubbish?

it suggests that older people's votes aren't worth as much as his/hers.

Explain why that's not ageist?

It's rubbish because you took adhibs post completely out of context to make a withering generalisation about the Yes campaign even though it was one posters personal opinion.

The more this thread goes on, the more desperate you become to make sarcastic points which doesn't do you any favours.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm still waiting on you providing proof on your statement.

This is what you said..."And if the press are all so powerful, how come Ed Miliband was able to shut down the NOTW?

I'm prepared to let you off with it, as I think you came on last night with a scatter gun approach and just shot from the hip.:greengrin

Ed Miliband did not shut down the NOTW.

You're a good soul :greengrin

Murdoch shut down the NOTW.

But that wouldn't have happened without the change in weather that Miliband brought about.

He pushed on Rebekah Brooks resigning, he pushed on the judge-led inquiry and he pushed on the halt of the BSkyB sale. And everyone else ended up following.

That created the environment that allowed for the closure - IIRC it was the Milly Dowler revelations that probably acted as the straw that broke the camel's back.

But I think it's inarguable that without Miliband's interventions, the NOTW would be publishing this week.

[ronaldo7]

I like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dbW_AT64m8E&app=desktop

[bawheid]

The polls consistently don't back that up.

The proof will be in the pudding come the GE. But for someone not PM material he's made the running in this Parliament, around phone hacking, around Syria and around the energy companies.

He's doing very poorly in the polls considering we're still mid-term.

I'd give him credit on the phone hacking thing - he did call it out early. He's a good policy maker I reckon too. Just not a leader.

I just think the Labour Party in England and Scotland are diverging, much like the two countries are.

I'd be likely to vote for a proper Labour Party in an independent Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's rubbish because you took adhibs post completely out of context to make a withering generalisation about the Yes campaign even though it was one posters personal opinion.

The more this thread goes on, the more desperate you become to make sarcastic points which doesn't do you any favours.

And personal comments against me do you any favours?

I did make a generalisation earlier yes. That's a fair point and I accept it.

But that's not what you called rubbish.

You accused me of 'a load of rubbish' around this post.




Adhibs: "...I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. "

Mibbes Aye: Tell me what's not ageist about that?

The suggestion is that older folks' votes shouldn't count as much because they have less time to live. That's ageist, pure and simple. Unless you want to defend it?

[Mibbes Aye]

He's doing very poorly in the polls considering we're still mid-term.

I'd give him credit on the phone hacking thing - he did call it out early. He's a good policy maker I reckon too. Just not a leader.

I just think the Labour Party in England and Scotland are diverging, much like the two countries are.

I'd be likely to vote for a proper Labour Party in an independent Scotland.

I've learned from my Yes friends on these threads that this indicates the electorate's 'shy Miliband' bias :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

You're a good soul :greengrin

Murdoch shut down the NOTW.

But that wouldn't have happened without the change in weather that Miliband brought about.

He pushed on Rebekah Brooks resigning, he pushed on the judge-led inquiry and he pushed on the halt of the BSkyB sale. And everyone else ended up following.

That created the environment that allowed for the closure - IIRC it was the Milly Dowler revelations that probably acted as the straw that broke the camel's back.

But I think it's inarguable that without Miliband's interventions, the NOTW would be publishing this week.


That's what did it IMHO.:aok:

[NOLA]

the yes campaign still hasnt won me over so im sticking with my original no.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's what did it IMHO.:aok:

For a straw to break a camel's back, someone has to have put a helluva lot of straws on previous to that :wink:

[ronaldo7]

For a straw to break a camel's back, someone has to have put a helluva lot of straws on previous to that :wink:

Not only him though.:aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

Not only him though.:aok:

Fair point, he's got a PA.

Always thinking about the little folk, that's what I like about you :greengrin

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Its a shame this thread is getting pettier the closer we get to the referendum vote. Although it does seem to reflect whats going on in the country the closer we get to the big day. Whatever the outcome, I don't think the next couple of years will be too harmonious.

[NAE NOOKIE]

the yes campaign still hasnt won me over so im sticking with my original no.

If your location is still correct on the 18th of September it aint gonna matter how you intend to vote mate :greengrin

Though I would say that in my opinion anybody of voting age world wide who can produce a birth certificate showing they were born in Scotland should be allowed to vote. I have no problem with the fact that anybody living in Scotland no matter their nationality will get to vote, but it does seem paradoxical that a 50 year old Scot who left Scotland at 49 cant vote, but a 50 year old Irishman who moved to Scotland at 49 can.

My ex wife is in her 30s but has lived in England for about 7 years .... knowing her she would be a yes.

My brother has lived in England for 20 odd years, he is a fiercely patriotic Scot .... I'm 99% sure he would vote no.

Hmmmmm !

[Hibrandenburg]

I like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dbW_AT64m8E&app=desktop

Cleverly done.

[Phil D. Rolls]

"...I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont. "


Tell me what's not ageist about that?

The whole sentence is ageist, and a horrible thing to say. I don't think it is suggesting that old people as a whole lack the ability to decide, but its still not acceptable.

[Moulin Yarns]

I like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dbW_AT64m8E&app=desktop


Beat me to it. It is Brilliantly put.

[Scouse Hibee]

Re being vocal about voting intentions. Could someone explain to me in laymans terms as I have next to no knowledge
/interest in politics why there is a sudden urge for people to broadcast to all and sundry how they will be voting? I've always viewed it as a very personal thing.

It seems to me that many people want to wear their votes as a symbol of patriotism, certainly seems to be that way with the amount of ridiculous sized badges people are wearing indicating their preference.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I always thought that thats what those ridiculous "Jimmy" wig/hats were for! :-)

[DaveF]

And personal comments against me do you any favours?

I did make a generalisation earlier yes. That's a fair point and I accept it.

But that's not what you called rubbish.

You accused me of 'a load of rubbish' around this post.



The suggestion is that older folks' votes shouldn't count as much because they have less time to live. That's ageist, pure and simple. Unless you want to defend it?

He said he'd be gutted if those votes made the difference and I agree with him. If indeed they do tip the balance then we'll just have to accept it and move on. Once we are old and grey we'll make the difference the next time.

He didn't say they shouldn't count - that's your interpretation of it.

[NAE NOOKIE]

It seems to me that many people want to wear their votes as a symbol of patriotism, certainly seems to be that way with the amount of ridiculous sized badges people are wearing indicating their preference.

Its a different kind of situation than your bog standard election though ... the outcome will determine the future of Scotland for the foreseeable future and in that scenario everybody has a view on it. It also has to be said that for many folk the wish to see Scotland independent has been a long standing one, well before devolution or the current referendum, and in view of that their wish to show public support for their side is hardly a surprise.

I have voted SNP all my life, but I've never made any public display of my political leanings, I do have a YES sticker in the car window this time though :greengrin

Theres a house in the next street to me with huge Saltires hanging from every widow and two foot high YES posters stuck to the building .... I think they are undecided.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Have to feel that the momentum with Yes will be enough to deliver a victory. RMT Union supporting, Daily Record and Sun Columnists supporting, Lamont/Better together getting shunned in Govan. Better Together's latest scare story on food prices is just another own goal IMO.

[allmodcons]

Some elderly voters are scared and Better Together know it fine well.

You constantly harp on about social justice or what you percieve as a lack of it from the SNP Government, maybe you want try knocking some doors? Speak to an elderly lady telling you she'd like to vote 'Yes' but is voting 'No' because she's been advised her state pension will not be paid in an iScotland.

No truth in that of course, the Department of Work & Pensions have confirmed the state pension will be secure in an iScotland but Better Together like to peddle fear and they do it well. I've taken to printing copies of this letter and handing them to concerned pensioners. Most of the canvassing has been good fun and a great experience, but this particular issue makes me sick.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pensioner-jackpot/#more-58267

You won't want to admit it, but thanks to the fear being peddled by Better Together many of our pensioners are both frigthened and confused.


Still using Wings over Scotland - the blogger who blames Hillsborough on the Liverpool fans? Even if he told me there were seven days in a week I wouldn't quote him on grounds of common decency.

Also, in his letter how many times do we see phrases like "..appears to be"?

Sorry, but I'm not putting my faith on our economic future in the likes of him :rolleyes:

What a pathetic response to a serious issue!

I supplied a link to the WoS website to let you see the pensions letter from the DWP, no other reason, and rather than respond on topic you go off one about WoS.

Any chance you might to reply to the BT scare tactic on state pensions?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Have to feel that the momentum with Yes will be enough to deliver a victory. RMT Union supporting, Daily Record and Sun Columnists supporting, Lamont/Better together getting shunned in Govan. Better Together's latest scare story on food prices is just another own goal IMO.

I still suspect a lot of "Don't Knows" are really No voters who don't want to own up. I think we're in a situation like Kinnock was in 93. The polls had him elected, but in the end he was comfortably defeated by Major.

It's still all to play for IMO, but if BT don't change their game plan, they are sleep walking to defeat.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What a pathetic response to a serious issue!

I supplied a link to the WoS website to let you see the pensions letter from the DWP, no other reason, and rather than respond on topic you go off one about WoS.

Any chance you might to reply to the BT scare tactic on state pensions?

That's the letter where the DWP effectively say, "we pay pensions to people in Marbella, so we would be able to use the same approach to paying pensioners in Musselburgh"?

[Mibbes Aye]

Some elderly voters are scared and Better Together know it fine well.

You constantly harp on about social justice or what you percieve as a lack of it from the SNP Government, maybe you want try knocking some doors? Speak to an elderly lady telling you she'd like to vote 'Yes' but is voting 'No' because she's been advised her state pension will not be paid in an iScotland.

No truth in that of course, the Department of Work & Pensions have confirmed the state pension will be secure in an iScotland but Better Together like to peddle fear and they do it well. I've taken to printing copies of this letter and handing them to concerned pensioners. Most of the canvassing has been good fun and a great experience, but this particular issue makes me sick.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pensioner-jackpot/#more-58267

You won't want to admit it, but thanks to the fear being peddled by Better Together many of our pensioners are both frigthened and confused.


What a pathetic response to a serious issue!

I supplied a link to the WoS website to let you see the pensions letter from the DWP, no other reason, and rather than respond on topic you go off one about WoS.

Any chance you might to reply to the BT scare tactic on state pensions?

Classy!

I'm not sure what your issue is. The DWP have issued a letter that I assume you are happy with.

Who is this elderly lady you want me to speak to?

[Mibbes Aye]

He said he'd be gutted if those votes made the difference and I agree with him. If indeed they do tip the balance then we'll just have to accept it and move on. Once we are old and grey we'll make the difference the next time.

He didn't say they shouldn't count - that's your interpretation of it.

It's the correct interpretation. If it was simply about one demographic cohort swinging the vote then maybe you would be right.

But the poster goes further than that, he says that these are people with less time to live than presumably he has. Why mention that other than to suggest that their views shouldn't carry as much weight as his?

Sadly, it's an attitude that I think is more common than we think, more broadly than the referendum. As a society we don't place a value on older people that we perhaps should. The way in which we deliver care maybe highlights this the most.

I know you and i maybe haven't always seen eye-to-eye on a few things and I'm not looking to be argumentative with you. I genuinely think it was a pretty rank statement though.

[DaveF]

It's the correct interpretation.

in your opinion, perhaps.


he says that these are people with less time to live than presumably he has.

That's a fact isn't it?


Why mention that other than to suggest that their views shouldn't carry as much weight as his?

Again, in your opinion. He's not suggesting that, you are.


I know you and i maybe haven't always seen eye-to-eye on a few things and I'm not looking to be argumentative with you

Believe it or not, neither am I :greengrin

Anyway, moving on slightly I wonder if anyone has the definitive view on those voters with Dementia? I know they still have the right to vote but that carers cannot and should not influence that. I only ask, as my father in law is now in a care home suffering from this terrible condition, and while I have no idea about his political leanings, I wondered if I should arrange to get him to the polling station to cast his vote. Clearly there are some issues with this. IE, his status now as compared to pre illness and such like. I don't even know if he has a polling card given he's now permanently in a care home.

I've not raised the subject with my wife and probably won't but it's an interesting issue - albeit a small one in terms of the overall vote.

[adhibs]

It's the correct interpretation. If it was simply about one demographic cohort swinging the vote then maybe you would be right.

But the poster goes further than that, he says that these are people with less time to live than presumably he has. Why mention that other than to suggest that their views shouldn't carry as much weight as his?



It isn't the correct interpretation and I of all people would know. Peoples opinions and votes regardless of if their 16 or 86 all carry the same weight. I was simply saying that the oldest voters aren't the ones who are going to have the majority of their lifes affected by the outcome. 60+ is also a very vague age bracket covering people still working to those in treble digits. I dont think its unfair to say the result will have a lot bigger bearing on people in their 20's-30's than those in their 80's-90's.

Reading it back 'I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont.' wasnt worded the best. If i'd wrote 'the result may affect the least' rather than 'with the shortest life span', even though i wouldve been implying the same thing, would this still be rumbling on?

I dont have a hatred for everyone over 60 and DaveF must be sick of arguing my points :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

It isn't the correct interpretation and I of all people would know. Peoples opinions and votes regardless of if their 16 or 86 all carry the same weight. I was simply saying that the oldest voters aren't the ones who are going to have the majority of their lifes affected by the outcome. 60+ is also a very vague age bracket covering people still working to those in treble digits. I dont think its unfair to say the result will have a lot bigger bearing on people in their 20's-30's than those in their 80's-90's.

Reading it back 'I'll personally be gutted if those that want change miss out because those with the shortest life span left dont.' wasnt worded the best. If i'd wrote 'the result may affect the least' rather than 'with the shortest life span', even though i wouldve been implying the same thing, would this still be rumbling on?

I dont have a hatred for everyone over 60 and DaveF must be sick of arguing my points :greengrin

Fair enough.

Interestingly, we have to make very big decisions regardless about how we care for older people given the pressures of an ageing population. Independence would certainly shift matters.

If the financial arithmetic from the No camp is right then we are in serious trouble. If the financial arithmetic from the Yes camp is right and it's no difference or even a financial surplus, what choices might an independent administration make?

Guess we will find out should it be a Yes on the 18th :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

in your opinion, perhaps.



That's a fact isn't it?



Again, in your opinion. He's not suggesting that, you are.



Believe it or not, neither am I :greengrin

Anyway, moving on slightly I wonder if anyone has the definitive view on those voters with Dementia? I know they still have the right to vote but that carers cannot and should not influence that. I only ask, as my father in law is now in a care home suffering from this terrible condition, and while I have no idea about his political leanings, I wondered if I should arrange to get him to the polling station to cast his vote. Clearly there are some issues with this. IE, his status now as compared to pre illness and such like. I don't even know if he has a polling card given he's now permanently in a care home.

I've not raised the subject with my wife and probably won't but it's an interesting issue - albeit a small one in terms of the overall vote.

I like how you tell me I'm wrong but don't present any other possible interpretation - maybe there wasn't a credible one.

Anyway, adhibs has spoken to his post and like you say, moving on:

I'm sorry for your father-in-law's situation. The local electoral registration office should have arrangements with the care home to ensure people were registered.

I couldn't begin to suggest what you should do though.

[DaveF]

I like how you tell me I'm wrong but don't present any other possible interpretation - maybe there wasn't a credible one.

I haven't actually, but you carry on making it up regardless.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Just to confirm the BBC's bias in the debate my insider has leaked the schedule for the evening of September the 17th

5:00pm

Top of the Pops best bits featuring: Bryan Ferry 'Lets stick together' ... Yazoo 'Don't go' .... Rod Stewart 'Stay with me' .... The Strawbs 'Part of the Union' ... Grange Hill cast 'Just say no'

6:00pm

Documentary: When Britain ruled the world

7:00pm

Comedy: Little Britain

8:00pm

Culture: Highlights of last night of the Proms

9:00pm

Film: She said no

11:00pm

Documentary: An insight into the charity 'Together is Better'

12:05am

Close .... National Anthem

:greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I haven't actually, but you carry on making it up regardless.

You have because this is all about the post I made that you called a load of rubbish.

Help me out, do 'wrong' and 'a load of rubbish' mean completely different things to you?

So far, you've posted that I'm talking a load of rubbish and that I'm making things up but you're not really backing either of those up.

It feels like I've annoyed you about something and it's getting a bit personal, if I'm being honest.

[DaveF]

Help me out, do 'wrong' and 'a load of rubbish' mean completely different things to you?

Yes. Both to me and my dictionary.


So far, you've posted that I'm talking a load of rubbish and that I'm making things up but you're not really backing either of those up.

I thought that (1) post was rubbish and I never, ever told you were wrong so you were making that up. What do you want me to back up? I tried to explain adhibs post back in #125. Even adhibs has explained it himself just a little up from here.


It feels like I've annoyed you about something and it's getting a bit personal, if I'm being honest.

Not annoyed and not personal.

I'll let you get back to defending the union. This is becoming tiresome for us both.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yes. Both to me and my dictionary.



I thought that (1) post was rubbish and I never, ever told you were wrong so you were making that up. What do you want me to back up? I tried to explain adhibs post back in #125. Even adhibs has explained it himself just a little up from here.



Not annoyed and not personal.

I'll let you get back to defending the union. This is becoming tiresome for us both.

Can't disagree :agree:

Hopefully no hard feelings, I enjoy the humour in a lot of your posts, even if we don't agree on stuff like this.

And TBH I'm not a defender of the union, I'm just so, so unconvinced by the Yes campaign.

[DaveF]

Can't disagree :agree:

Hopefully no hard feelings, I enjoy the humour in a lot of your posts, even if we don't agree on stuff like this.

And TBH I'm not a defender of the union, I'm just so, so unconvinced by the Yes campaign.

Absolutely not.

So much so that you have an invite to the Independence victory party at my house in a few weeks.

It's your round.

[Leith Green]

Read on the comments of one scotsman article, that latest you gov poll to be released monday will show 47 yes 46 no 7 dont know.. Obviously a rumour, but guy at work said something similar yesterday. I have a gut feeling yes are going to win, there just seems to be so much momentum towards Yes

[CropleyWasGod]

Absolutely not.

So much so that you have an invite to the Independence victory party at my house in a few weeks.

It's your round.

It's him on the bonfire. :cb

[The Harp Awakes]

Have to feel that the momentum with Yes will be enough to deliver a victory. RMT Union supporting, Daily Record and Sun Columnists supporting, Lamont/Better together getting shunned in Govan. Better Together's latest scare story on food prices is just another own goal IMO.

I think the reason the opinion polls have been narrowing recently is that folk are getting fed up with the negative overtones from the No camp and their continued 'project fear' tactics. They really have No vision for Scotland and continue to try and scare the electorate as the No campaigns for devolution and a Scottish Parliament did in 1979 and 1997. The appearance of Nigel Farage and the Orange Order wrapped in the Union Flag in the next week or so, telling us to stick to the Union will be the final nail in the coffin for Better Together.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think the reason the opinion polls have been narrowing recently is that folk are getting fed up with the negative overtones from the No camp and their continued 'project fear' tactics. They really have No vision for Scotland and continue to try and scare the electorate as the No campaigns for devolution and a Scottish Parliament did in 1979 and 1997. The appearance of Nigel Farage and the Orange Order wrapped in the Union Flag in the next week or so, telling us to stick to the Union will be the final nail in the coffin for Better Together.

On that note, any idea when and where they're marching?

[DaveF]

On that note, any idea when and where they're marching?

It's on Saturday 13th and the carnival kicks off at 1.30pm

Route is as follows:

The parade route will go up Middle Meadow Walk, travel down Forrest Road, George IV Bridge, High Street, Canongate and Abbeyhill with dispersal on Regent Road.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's on Saturday 13th and the carnival kicks off at 1.30pm

Route is as follows:

The parade route will go up Middle Meadow Walk, travel down Forrest Road, George IV Bridge, High Street, Canongate and Abbeyhill with dispersal on Regent Road.

What time's the pagger?

[DaveF]

What time's the pagger?

Whenever they reach Regent Road :greengrin

[R'Albin]

Put me down for a 'yes' if it means never hearing this fat, tax dodging **** Gary Barlow again.

[The Harp Awakes]

Read on the comments of one scotsman article, that latest you gov poll to be released monday will show 47 yes 46 no 7 dont know.. Obviously a rumour, but guy at work said something similar yesterday. I have a gut feeling yes are going to win, there just seems to be so much momentum towards Yes

About 6 months ago the bookies were quoting a No win at 1/8. That's about the same odds Margaret Ewing was to defeat Alex Salmond in the SNP leadership contest in 1990 which Salmond went on to win. Since that day Salmond has said he would never accept a lost cause. Just like the returned SNP Holyrood minority Government was a lost cause in 2007 and just like the returned SNP majority Government was a lost cause in 2011.

I still think there is a lot of work to do for Yes to win on 18 September but if they do win, love him or hate him, Salmond will have played a blinder.

[Mibbes Aye]

Absolutely not.

So much so that you have an invite to the Independence victory party at my house in a few weeks.

It's your round.

I'll concede this much to the Yes camp.

If they get the outcome they want from the vote it will be more of a party than if the No camp get their outcome :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Is this for real?

13423

[Peevemor]

I'll concede this much to the Yes camp.

If they get the outcome they want from the vote it will be more of a party than if the No camp get their outcome :agree:

You might as well vote yes then - just for the craic like!

[Leith Green]

About 6 months ago the bookies were quoting a No win at 1/8. That's about the same odds Margaret Ewing was to defeat Alex Salmond in the SNP leadership contest in 1990 which Salmond went on to win. Since that day Salmond has said he would never accept a lost cause. Just like the returned SNP Holyrood minority Governement was a lost cause in 2007 and just like the returned SNP majority Government was a lost cause in 2011.

I still think there is a lot of work to do for Yes to win on 18 September but but if they do win, love him or hate him, Salmond will have played a blinder.


I was looking at the odds today, this morning yes was 11/4 to win, now down to 2/1 , im guessing at one point Yes would have been out nearer 7/1... Thats some shift, if the polls have closed further then the odds will start balancing out towards evens.. I just think No have made an absolute balls up of their campaign, it is actually looking like they would be better off saying no more because they themselves are turning voters to Yes, people who were undecided now seem to be seeing through them, they have offered nothing except patronising us, and attempting to make us feel like we are useless, as you say Salmond is no mug and I firmly believe its Yes to win it now... No had uncertainty on their side, but thankfully people are waking up to it all

[Mibbes Aye]

You might as well vote yes then - just for the craic like!

Best argument I've heard yet :greengrin

[Leith Green]

Is this for real?

13423

Its on the observer website, they really are flapping it seems.. Yes will jump all over that... Why not offer extra devolution prior to these polls, shower of ****

[steakbake]

They've had the powers all along to offer far greater autonomy (to use a well worn argument of late).

A yougov poll puts Yes ahead for the first time in one of their polls albeit by only 1%.

Only one that counts is the one on the day but Yes has always had a lower base with that company. A month ago, No was ahead by 20 with yougov.

[Leith Green]

Yes on 51 No on 49 ...

[Leith Green]

And bet365 offering 2/1 , worth a punt??

[The Harp Awakes]

Its on the observer website, they really are flapping it seems.. Yes will jump all over that... Why not offer extra devolution prior to these polls, shower of ****

Panic stations are well and tuly setting in. Scotland to go it's own way with 90% of the North Sea oil revenues. Seperately, the Weir group's 'collossal' oil find off Shetland is beginning to trickle through. Senior execs in Weir apparently told to keep stume until after the referendum:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Its on the observer website, they really are flapping it seems.. Yes will jump all over that... Why not offer extra devolution prior to these polls, shower of ****

Cheers.

So.... DevoMax, which IIRC was rejected as an option by Cameron, is now back on the table.

:rolleyes:

[Leith Green]

Cheers.

So.... DevoMax, which IIRC was rejected as an option by Cameron, is now back on the table.

:rolleyes:


I just dont understand why you would offer something last ditch when the polls have turned, but not offer it say 6 weeks ago.. Its actually insulting!

[CropleyWasGod]

I just dont understand why you would offer something last ditch when the polls have turned, but not offer it say 6 weeks ago.. Its actually insulting!

6 weeks ago, they thought they had it won.

Had DevoMax been on the table from Day 1, that IMO would have won. However, that would've kept us on the "slippery slope" to independence. Keeping it off the table, the assumed No vote would've killed Indy for a generation.

It seems they have miscalculated big time.

[steakbake]

I just dont understand why you would offer something last ditch when the polls have turned, but not offer it say 6 weeks ago.. Its actually insulting!

Cameron is a weak PM - which in itself isn't fatal. But his other skill is that he makes terrible decisions.

Ed's response: we'll put guards on the Scottish border. Nicely positive response there, Ed.

[Leith Green]

Panic stations are well and tuly setting in. Scotland to go it's own way with 90% of the North Sea oil revenues. Seperately, the Weir group's 'collossal' oil find off Shetland is beginning to trickle through. Senior execs in Weir apparently told to keep stume until after the referendum:wink:

You reckon that about the oil is true?

[DaveF]

You reckon that about the oil is true?

The oil field - Yes. The bit about keeping it quiet - No.

It's been discussed at length on the other thread I think.

[Leith Green]

And bet365 offering 2/1 , worth a punt??

Down to 7/4 now

[Leith Green]

The oil field - Yes. The bit about keeping it quiet - No.

It's been discussed at length on the other thread I think.

I meant more about Cameron trying to hush it until after the referendum??

[DaveF]

I meant more about Cameron trying to hush it until after the referendum??

Personally, I've no idea, but as I said, I think the other thread kills that one dead and states it's been out in open for some time.

[The Harp Awakes]

The oil field - Yes. The bit about keeping it quiet - No.

It's been discussed at length on the other thread I think.

Just going with what I was told by a Weir worker. Who knows for sure. What I do know however is that it was widely publicised in the 1980s that North Sea oil would run out in the 1990s. Ahem:rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

I just dont understand why you would offer something last ditch when the polls have turned, but not offer it say 6 weeks ago.. Its actually insulting!

Insulting and desperate, very desperate in fact.

[The Harp Awakes]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html

Project Fear hs no limits apparently after the latest opinion poll putting yes ahead:greengrin


We'll put guards on Scottish border: Ed Miliband reveals incendiary plan as Yes camp leads for first time in shock new poll

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html#ixzz3CZjKkt00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[steakbake]

It'd surely be the only place in Europe which does have guards on the border - but then rUK might vote itself out of Europe pretty soon anyway.

[Mibbes Aye]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html

Project Fear hs no limits apparently after the latest opinion poll putting yes ahead:greengrin


We'll put guards on Scottish border: Ed Miliband reveals incendiary plan as Yes camp leads for first time in shock new poll

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html#ixzz3CZjKkt00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Mindblowing.

The Yes camp have repeatedly gone on about propaganda and lies from the MSM.

The likes of the Daily Mail have been (understandably) particularly criticised.

Miliband didn't say we would put guards on the Scottish border. Yet people are quite happy for the Daily Mail to now be the gospel :rolleyes:

[Leith Green]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html

Project Fear hs no limits apparently after the latest opinion poll putting yes ahead:greengrin


We'll put guards on Scottish border: Ed Miliband reveals incendiary plan as Yes camp leads for first time in shock new poll

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746369/We-ll-guards-Scottish-border-Ed-Miliband-reveals-incendiary-plan-new-poll-reveals-vote-knife-edge.html#ixzz3CZjKkt00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Is it just me or are No going out their way to lose, thats laughable and the worst form of scaremongering yet.. Milliband and darling are playing into salmonds hands here..

To top it all Brown has taken a swipe at the tories,blaming them for yes surge.. they are imploding

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/shock-poll-puts-yes-camp-in-front-30567130.html

[DaveF]

Mindblowing.

The Yes camp have repeatedly gone on about propaganda and lies from the MSM.

The likes of the Daily Mail have been (understandably) particularly criticised.

Miliband didn't say we would put guards on the Scottish border. Yet people are quite happy for the Daily Mail to now be the gospel :rolleyes:

Me again :greengrin

Now, there you go again. Someone has posted a link to the Mail - that's it. No one has said the mail speaketh the truth, that's something you have suggested :wink:

Mind you, there is a quote from Ed and co in the article, giving it some degree of credence.

Asked whether that would mean him introducing border guards and passport checks if he was Prime Minister, Mr Miliband warned: ‘It would have to be looked at.’

And Mr Miliband’s spokesman added last night: ‘The last time I looked there were two sides to the border – and we would be in charge of one of them. It would be up to us, not Mr Salmond, to secure our northern border.’

Quite why they think Salmond would be in charge I'm not sure. He would have to be elected first!

[ronaldo7]

Mindblowing.

The Yes camp have repeatedly gone on about propaganda and lies from the MSM.

The likes of the Daily Mail have been (understandably) particularly criticised.

Miliband didn't say we would put guards on the Scottish border. Yet people are quite happy for the Daily Mail to now be the gospel :rolleyes:

They'd be on the English Border. We're no havin one:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Mindblowing.

The Yes camp have repeatedly gone on about propaganda and lies from the MSM.

The likes of the Daily Mail have been (understandably) particularly criticised.

Miliband didn't say we would put guards on the Scottish border. Yet people are quite happy for the Daily Mail to now be the gospel :rolleyes:

You need to do better than that. Give us the source where he didn't say that. The border guards are to stop the English coming up to escape the austerity

[Mibbes Aye]

Me again :greengrin

Now, there you go again. Someone has posted a link to the Mail - that's it. No one has said the mail speaketh the truth, that's something you have suggested :wink:

Mind you, there is a quote from Ed and co in the article, giving it some degree of credence.

Asked whether that would mean him introducing border guards and passport checks if he was Prime Minister, Mr Miliband warned: ‘It would have to be looked at.’

And Mr Miliband’s spokesman added last night: ‘The last time I looked there were two sides to the border – and we would be in charge of one of them. It would be up to us, not Mr Salmond, to secure our northern border.’

Quite why they think Salmond would be in charge I'm not sure. He would have to be elected first!

If you think that quote gives it credence then it's maybe worth thinking some more.

What response do you expect him to give? He didn't say yes, you are acknowledging that I trust :wink:

Should he have said no? What happens then?

The UK negotiated an opt-out on Schengen which IMO wasn't popular with our EU partners. How could a rUK government justify, how could it retain any credibility with its EU partners if it said it was suspending the opt-out for another foreign country, which may or may not be an EU member. If an independent Scotland is a full EU member and rUK doesn't apply Schengen to it then where is the justification for the opt-out in regard to other EU members.

This feels more like the DM playing into the Euro debate down south than actually being about Scotland.

To my mind this is more about a

[Mibbes Aye]

You need to do better than that. Give us the source where he didn't say that. The border guards are to stop the English coming up to escape the austerity

:greengrin

[The Harp Awakes]

Mindblowing.

The Yes camp have repeatedly gone on about propaganda and lies from the MSM.

The likes of the Daily Mail have been (understandably) particularly criticised.

Miliband didn't say we would put guards on the Scottish border. Yet people are quite happy for the Daily Mail to now be the gospel :rolleyes:

Mibbies, I respect your opinion and looking at your posts I think you have made some very good, positive arguments for voting No. The problem is the No campaign has been an unmitigated disaster. My 88 year old, English born mother has voted Yes in her postal vote simply because of the No campagn's negative campaigning.

Tonight, it is clear the No campaign is about to disintegrate. Another Sunday newspaper is running a story about Gordon Brown blaming the Tories for the upsurge in the (intended) Yes vote. The Daily Mail may well be wrong in it's Miliband quote, they usually are. One things for sure though, the momentum is with yes.

[DaveF]

If you think that quote gives it credence then it's maybe worth thinking some more.

What response do you expect him to give? He didn't say yes, you are acknowledging that I trust :wink:

Should he have said no? What happens then?

The UK negotiated an opt-out on Schengen which IMO wasn't popular with our EU partners. How could a rUK government justify, how could it retain any credibility with its EU partners if it said it was suspending the opt-out for another foreign country, which may or may not be an EU member. If an independent Scotland is a full EU member and rUK doesn't apply Schengen to it then where is the justification for the opt-out in regard to other EU members.

This feels more like the DM playing into the Euro debate down south than actually being about Scotland.

To my mind this is more about a

I said some credence but you overlooked that bit :greengrin

He didn't say Yes so I will acknowledge that. Just like you'll acknowledge your line about the YES campaign accepting the Mail as gospel was rubbish :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Me again :greengrin

Now, there you go again. Someone has posted a link to the Mail - that's it. No one has said the mail speaketh the truth, that's something you have suggested :wink:



Well, when you asked on the pm board if it was real someone did reply that yes, he said it a few months ago.

I'm editing as I go here - in response to the post above, let's see whether people run with it being true shall we? Going by how the responses have started (e.g. Steakbake's), just talking about it takes us to a place where it becomes established narrative - a bit like dotnet FACT I guess.

But he didn't say it and what he did say has to be contextualised into a much broader setting.

[Mibbes Aye]

Mibbies, I respect your opinion and looking at your posts I think you have made some very good, positive arguments for voting No. The problem is the No campaign has been an unmitigated disaster. My 88 year old, English born mother has voted Yes in her postal vote simply because of the No campagn's negative campaigning.

Tonight, it is clear the No campaign is about to disintegrate. Another Sunday newspaper is running a story about Gordon Brown blaming the Tories for the upsurge in the (intended) Yes vote. The Daly Mail may well be wrong in it's Miliband quote, they usually are. One things for sure though, the momentum is with yes.

Thanks for that, THA.

I think the No camp was always going to struggle with a message - uneasy bedfellows, some of whom are toxic to many Scots and an argument that had to counter the aspirational element of the Yes campaign.

But I also think both sides, at campaign level, have been shoddy and have let us down. With a few exceptions the level of debate and engagement has been embarrassing.

I've had better debate and chat, without the rancour, with friends and colleagues. And even on here sometimes :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Well, when you asked on the pm board if it was real someone did reply that yes, he said it a few months ago.

I'm editing as I go here - in response to the post above, let's see whether people run with it being true shall we? Going by how the responses have started (e.g. Steakbake's), just talking about it takes us to a place where it becomes established narrative - a bit like dotnet FACT I guess.

But he didn't say it and what he did say has to be contextualised into a much broader setting.

It was me who said he said "it" a few months ago. By "it", I did mean what he was quoted as saying, and not the headline.

My question, though, is why a story from months back has suddenly been recycled. Not being a fan of the Mail, my assumption has to be another attempt at influencing the vote.

[The Harp Awakes]

Thanks for that, THA.

I think the No camp was always going to struggle with a message - uneasy bedfellows, some of whom are toxic to many Scots and an argument that had to counter the aspirational element of the Yes campaign.

But I also think both sides, at campaign level, have been shoddy and have let us down. With a few exceptions the level of debate and engagement has been embarrassing.

I've had better debate and chat, without the rancour, with friends and colleagues. And even on here sometimes :greengrin

I know what you mean re; campaign level. However, I thought last week's televised debate on STV was much more positive where Patrick Harvie for Yes and Ruth Davidson for No were both very competent. I'm biased (obviously) but I thought Harvie in particular was very impressive in putting forward the case for independence.

[steakbake]

I don't think the campaign has lacked engagement at all. In fact, the biggest confirmation for me that Yes is the right answer is seeing just how many people are actually interested in politics for once - on both sides. There'll be a great turn out. With a No, well, it's business as usual really - all in the hands of the politicians as per usual. With a Yes, then everything is up for grabs and the people will dictate the politics. There'll be new political parties and in terms of political heavyweights, there's a number of young politicians on both sides who I would feel comfortable taking things forward.

[Peevemor]

I don't think the campaign has lacked engagement at all. In fact, the biggest confirmation for me that Yes is the right answer is seeing just how many people are actually interested in politics for once - on both sides. There'll be a great turn out. With a No, well, it's business as usual really - all in the hands of the politicians as per usual. With a Yes, then everything is up for grabs and the people will dictate the politics. There'll be new political parties and in terms of political heavyweights, there's a number of young politicians on both sides who I would feel comfortable taking things forward.

Totally!

The "grass roots" yes campaign has shown that political action can and should involve everyone, of all persuasions, and not just the career politicians we see all the time on TV.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If you are going to England after independence go through the Canonbie border post. I go that way a lot and the road is usually pretty quiet until after Longtown.

Good news about the poll though ......... I wonder how the markets will react on Monday morning, the pound should rocket in value at the prospect of the UK shaking off 5,500,000 spongers ................ shouldn't it?

[steakbake]

Totally!

The "grass roots" yes campaign has shown that political action can and should involve everyone, of all persuasions, and not just the career politicians we see all the time on TV.

That man on the telly?

[steakbake]

If you are going to England after independence go through the Canonbie border post. I go that way a lot and the road is usually pretty quiet until after Longtown.

Good news about the poll though ......... I wonder how the markets will react on Monday morning, the pound should rocket in value at the prospect of the UK shaking off 5,500,000 spongers ................ shouldn't it?

Hah, the markets are apparently spooked at the thought of the UK economy losing 90% of its oil and gas...

[lord bunberry]

Since I was able to vote ive dreamed of the day we could finally be free, today that dream seems closer than it's ever been.

[Glory Lurker]

Hah, the markets are apparently spooked at the thought of the UK economy losing 90% of its oil and gas...

You're crazy nuts, are you not? Oil is a volatile burden. The pound can only sky rocket if rUK is freed from that. :greengrin

[Peevemor]

That man on the telly?

Him, for example;

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/07/2avu3edu.jpg

[lord bunberry]

Watching sky news, they just don't get it

[The Harp Awakes]

Watching sky news, they just don't get it

Been watching Sky News tonight as well. The 2 pundits reviewing the Sunday newspapers on the 51% poll for independence were hilarious. They were both predicting the end of the World as we know it, whilst at the same time trying to rally the No camp and saying all is not lost.

Now there's good a moderate, balanced view for you:greengrin

[Godsahibby]

I asked this on the thread on the PM board yesterday but not had a response hoping opening it up on here someone could shed some light.

While we are on this topic can someone explain to me how would things work if we do (hopefully) get the yes vote decide to use the pound without a formal currency union when it comes to the country borrowing? Hypothetically the government decided on a huge project, trams, new road bridge etc and needed to borrow the funds for it.

As it stands am I not correct in thinking the Bank of England act as a sort of guarantor for any government borrowing. Without something like that in place how would the country borrow?

[Leith Green]

Was just Watching Nicola Sturgeon live on Sky News, this time the Sky presenter trying her hardest to halt the Yes campaign, trotting out the same negative crap we keep hearing. Sturgeon yet again came across really well and it just makes me think with every day that passes and we keep hearing the same No spin on all things Yes, Yes seems positive and actually interested in the people of Scotland, No comes across as only giving a **** about how it affects Westminster not the people of Scotland, now it seems the media are trying to put the boot in to.. People can see through it

[JeMeSouviens]

I asked this on the thread on the PM board yesterday but not had a response hoping opening it up on here someone could shed some light.

While we are on this topic can someone explain to me how would things work if we do (hopefully) get the yes vote decide to use the pound without a formal currency union when it comes to the country borrowing? Hypothetically the government decided on a huge project, trams, new road bridge etc and needed to borrow the funds for it.

As it stands am I not correct in thinking the Bank of England act as a sort of guarantor for any government borrowing. Without something like that in place how would the country borrow?

No, the government borrows money based on its income (tax receipts). The interest rate it has to pay reflects how safe a bet the market values this as. If institutions think they're taking a risk on you they expect a greater reward.

[Just Alf]

I asked this on the thread on the PM board yesterday but not had a response hoping opening it up on here someone could shed some light.

While we are on this topic can someone explain to me how would things work if we do (hopefully) get the yes vote decide to use the pound without a formal currency union when it comes to the country borrowing? Hypothetically the government decided on a huge project, trams, new road bridge etc and needed to borrow the funds for it.

As it stands am I not correct in thinking the Bank of England act as a sort of guarantor for any government borrowing. Without something like that in place how would the country borrow?


apologies, read your post last night and couldn't be bothered to get out my bed and go switch pc on! :wink:

This piece in the CITY AM from someone at the Adam Smith institute explains that the "Plan B" you mention above should actually be an iScotland's Plan A!

http://www.cityam.com/1408563019/how-independent-scotland-can-keep-pound-and-have-more-stable-banks

The WEF rankings show that this has actually driven Panama up to 12 place in the Global Competitive ratings (UK is at 89)
http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/#indicatorId=EOSQ087

[Peevemor]

apologies, read your post last night and couldn't be bothered to get out my bed and go switch pc on! :wink:

This piece in the CITY AM from someone at the Adam Smith institute explains that the "Plan B" you mention above should actually be an iScotland's Plan A!

http://www.cityam.com/1408563019/how-independent-scotland-can-keep-pound-and-have-more-stable-banks

The WEF rankings show that this has actually driven Panama up to 12 place in the Global Competitive ratings (UK is at 89)
http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/#indicatorId=EOSQ087

During the last Darling /Salmond debate, Darling said "I don't want us to be like Panama for 6 minutes". I asked myself why not.

[Moulin Yarns]

During the last Darling /Salmond debate, Darling said "I don't want us to be like Panama for 6 minutes". I asked myself why not.


Growth in GDP shows that the rate of recovery from the financial crisis has been very different in both countries :wink: Maybe that is why. Oh, wait a minute.....

UK Panama
2009 -5.2% 4.0%
2010 1.7% 5.9%
2011 1.1% 10.8%
2012 0.3% 10.2%
2013 1.7% 8.4%

[Beefster]

apologies, read your post last night and couldn't be bothered to get out my bed and go switch pc on! :wink:

This piece in the CITY AM from someone at the Adam Smith institute explains that the "Plan B" you mention above should actually be an iScotland's Plan A!

http://www.cityam.com/1408563019/how-independent-scotland-can-keep-pound-and-have-more-stable-banks

The WEF rankings show that this has actually driven Panama up to 12 place in the Global Competitive ratings (UK is at 89)
http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/#indicatorId=EOSQ087

Panama is 48th in the Global Competitive Ratings. The UK is 9th.

[Scouse Hibee]

]Since I was able to vote ive dreamed of the day we could finally be free[/B], today that dream seems closer than it's ever been.

Aye right then. Are you sure this statement is accurate? :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Aye right then. Are you sure this statement is accurate? :greengrin

After 8 bottles of cider last night it was gospel mate :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Him, for example;

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/07/2avu3edu.jpg


:faf:

[NAE NOOKIE]

Since I was able to vote ive dreamed of the day we could finally be free, today that dream seems closer than it's ever been.

Ken from your last post ye were on the pop your lordship. But theres a good reason the Yes campaign have studiously avoided that sort of statement ........ nae Braveheart stuff please.

:slipper:

[lord bunberry]

Ken from your last post ye were on the pop your lordship. But theres a good reason the Yes campaign have studiously avoided that sort of statement ........ nae Braveheart stuff please.

:slipper:

:faf: I need to stay away from the computer when I'm having a drink. It didn't help that I finally found out how to post links from my iPad as well.

[Scouse Hibee]

After 8 bottles of cider last night it was gospel mate :greengrin


:greengrin I thought as much.:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

Panama is 48th in the Global Competitive Ratings. The UK is 9th.


What is your source?

Mine says 40th and 10th respectively. Uk falling and Panama rising.

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GCR2013-14/GCR_Rankings_2013-14.pdf

[Beefster]

What is your source?

Mine says 40th and 10th respectively. Uk falling and Panama rising.

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GCR2013-14/GCR_Rankings_2013-14.pdf

The original post said that Panama was 12th and the UK was 89th.

For 10th/40th, you are using last year's figures. It's now 9th/48th. So the UK rising and Panama falling.

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/

[NAE NOOKIE]

:faf: I need to stay away from the computer when I'm having a drink. It didn't help that I finally found out how to post links from my iPad as well.


:party: :saltireflag Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom :greengrin

[Just Alf]

What is your source?

Mine says 40th and 10th respectively. Uk falling and Panama rising.

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GCR2013-14/GCR_Rankings_2013-14.pdf


Your original post said that Panama was 12th and the UK was 89th? No matter.

For 10th/40th, you are using last year's figures.

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/

Confusing indeed!

It was me that quoted Panama at 12th

Looking at the detail, looks like the same data set, mine was using the "soundness of banking" filter.... The version I think you quoted B was overall competitiveness



I think! :confused:

[Beefster]

Confusing indeed!

It was me that quoted Panama at 12th

Looking at the detail, looks like the same data set, mine was using the "soundness of banking" filter.... The version I think you quoted B was overall competitiveness



I think! :confused:

I've edited my post to reflect that it wasn't Golden Fleece with the original post.

Yeah, I think you used a small subset of the overall ranking.

[Moulin Yarns]

I've edited my post to reflect that it wasn't Golden Fleece with the original post.

Yeah, I think you used a small subset of the overall ranking.


Aye, and need to read all post leading up to where I'm quoting :rolleyes: These forums are moving faster than no voters of an official poll

[Just Alf]

I've edited my post to reflect that it wasn't Golden Fleece with the original post.

Yeah, I think you used a small subset of the overall ranking.

:agree: yup, my own post was in relation to a question about banking in an iScotland going the "Panama" route.

Makes sense now :thumbsup:

[Beefster]

Aye, and need to read all post leading up to where I'm quoting :rolleyes: These forums are moving faster than no voters of an official poll

You quoted my post directly. If you don't like me pointing you to figures that are more up-to-date than your fast-paced ones, best not to ask.

Other than pointing out figures were incorrect (twice), I didn't actually engage in any debate about independence. I still get an arsey response though.

11 days to go.

[Moulin Yarns]

You quoted my post directly. If you don't like me pointing you to figures that are more up-to-date than your fast-paced ones, best not to ask.

Other than pointing out figures were incorrect (twice), I didn't actually engage in any debate about independence today. I still get an arsey response though.

11 days to go.

Sorry, that was aimed at myself as I didn't go back a day to read what had been posted since I was last online.

[Beefster]

Sorry, that was aimed at myself as I didn't go back a day to read what had been posted since I was last online.

In that case, my apologies.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The Mail on Sunday strikes again. The same paper which published a letter assassinating the character and intelligence of Colin and Christine Weir, prompting a blizzard of complaints even from Better Together supporters has now published this:

"I just about had a technicolour yawn when I heard the Nats were closing the gap on the 'Better Together' lead.
Have you guys no idea at all what you are throwing away?
Sots were once a crowd to be reckoned with. I'm taking about guys who marched across the Western Desert and helped us Aussies toss the Fascists back where they came from.
Or who fought their way up Italy, and gave nationalism a right bloody nose"

David Fuller, Brisbane.

Yet another bloody moron who doesn't know the difference between Nationalism and 'National Socialism'

Not that the MoS cares of course. A paper which would print 'Independent Scotland in danger from obliteration by space aliens' if it thought for two seconds it would win BT a couple more votes.

[Leith Green]

Can somebody help me understand this, are these polls to be believed? Or can they be skewed as some people are insinuating on other forums attributed to you gov, and online papers.. Some suggesting a 22 per cent swing has to be bull ****??

[CropleyWasGod]

Can somebody help me understand this, are these polls to be believed? Or can they be skewed as some people are insinuating on other forums attributed to you gov, and online papers.. Some suggesting a 22 per cent swing has to be bull ****??

For me, as a numbers man, I struggle to have faith in polls that use such small sample sizes.

What it says to me, though, is that we have now got to the point where it is too close to call. Anyone who confidently predicts the outcome at this stage is either stupid, or is in charge of the count :greengrin

[Leith Green]

The way i see it is out of the people i know or have met, id put 70/30 Yes, obviously i understand that someone from a different background will tell you the same is true but in reverse.. The biggest thing which gives me my gut feeling it will be yes is that almost all the people who were unsure a while ago are now firmly Yes, there have been folk i know who were against it a while ago but now favour it. I dont know anyone who has gone the other way..

[steakbake]

The way i see it is out of the people i know or have met, id put 70/30 Yes, obviously i understand that someone from a different background will tell you the same is true but in reverse.. The biggest thing which gives me my gut feeling it will be yes is that almost all the people who were unsure a while ago are now firmly Yes, there have been folk i know who were against it a while ago but now favour it. I dont know anyone who has gone the other way..

Agree with your last sentence there - the only people I know who have made a switch are the undecideds/soft no to yes.

Also think there is something to Irvine Welsh's "fk it, go on then" voters - the folk who'll go in there intending to vote No, but when faced with the option on paper, they'll go with Yes.

No mistake, No has a bedrock of support but undecideds and soft Nos are the way to go. Seeing Osborne's intervention is bound to have got a few people's backs up.

But I'll be out all next weekend trying to do whatever I can to get a few more people over the line.

[snooky]

The way i see it is out of the people i know or have met, id put 70/30 Yes, obviously i understand that someone from a different background will tell you the same is true but in reverse.. The biggest thing which gives me my gut feeling it will be yes is that almost all the people who were unsure a while ago are now firmly Yes, there have been folk i know who were against it a while ago but now favour it. I dont know anyone who has gone the other way..

The No campaign has been a disaster from the off. They've probably done as much (if not more) for an independence vote than the Yes campaign themselves .

I've just been emailed a poster (supposedly issued by the No's) which, if legit, is about a low as you can go in the murky business of propaganda.
I will give the No's the benefit of the doubt however, and assume it's the work of a sicko who, to be fair, could be either a Y or N voter (or neither).

[Hibrandenburg]

For me, as a numbers man, I struggle to have faith in polls that use such small sample sizes.

What it says to me, though, is that we have now got to the point where it is too close to call. Anyone who confidently predicts the outcome at this stage is either stupid, or is in charge of the count :greengrin

Definitely gonna be Yes!!!

Btw, I struggle to count to 10 so that rules out option 2 :greengrin

[bawheid]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

[Sylar]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

That's total and utter nonsense (the article, not your post bawheid).

I had the same thought watching Andrew Marr yesterday morning as Osbourne peddled the same old rhetoric about currency...it's not productive for the No campaign to resort to the same negativity that now sees them languishing.

Boris never has anything good to say about Scotland so the Yes campaign will be rubbing their hands in glee.

So many people I know now who are turning over to the 'Yes' side and their reason is driven by the tactics of the 'No' campaign.

[Sylar]

Definitely gonna be Yes!!!

Btw, I struggle to count to 10 so that rules out option 2 :greengrin

I bet the guy who's placed almost £1million on it being a 'No' outcome is starting to properly soil his briefs...:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

Was just about to post the same link. I grew up with the Scotsman, can't believe how far it has fallen. :(

[easty]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191
.

What can you even say in response to nonsense like that?

[stoneyburn hibs]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

The Scotsman really should remove that story, disgusting.

[Jones28]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

That's ridiculous! The Scotsman really should pull that story.

Are news papers obligated to be neutral like the bbc or are the rules not as strict for them?

[lord bunberry]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.
Stuff like this makes me angry, it's despicable and desperate IMO

[SlickShoes]

The way i see it is out of the people i know or have met, id put 70/30 Yes, obviously i understand that someone from a different background will tell you the same is true but in reverse.. The biggest thing which gives me my gut feeling it will be yes is that almost all the people who were unsure a while ago are now firmly Yes, there have been folk i know who were against it a while ago but now favour it. I dont know anyone who has gone the other way..

I see this in many people in my circle of friends, looking towards YES rather than NO. However, people my parents age and their parents (if still alive) seem to be overwhelmingly NO and as we are an aging country this has me worried, they think the UK has done them fine and they are now retired with pension then why rock the boat.

For me the NO campaign seems to still be all scare tactics and about belittling YES voters into coming across as stupid idiots who are throwing away the future, when they should be trying to win us over. I started on the YES side and the NO campaign has done nothing to entice me across, they constantly come across as condescending and patronising and just push anyone who is on the fence slightly to the YES side even further. I have yet to meet anyone thats been moved from YES to NO but have some friends who after spending some time reading and thinking about it have moved from an initial NO to outright YES or even just considering it now instead of dismissing a YES vote as ridiculous.

[Betty Boop]

Its NO for me.

[JimBHibees]

Its NO for me.

Why?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Stuff like this makes me angry, it's despicable and desperate IMO

I think we've been expecting this one for some time. Callous disregard for the guy's relatives. Brace yourselves, the British establishment will stop at nothing to get their own way. It's going to get really messy.

[JimBHibees]

I think we've been expecting this one for some time. Callous disregard for the guy's relatives. Brace yourselves, the British establishment will stop at nothing to get their own way. It's going to get really messy.

Couldnt agree more there will be no depths that will not be reached in the next 10 days or so from No.

[JimBHibees]

That's ridiculous! The Scotsman really should pull that story.

Are news papers obligated to be neutral like the bbc or are the rules not as strict for them?

BBC are in no way neutral IMO.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report

http://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014/06/30/i-was-bullied-bbc-over-academic-report-indyref-bias-scottish-media-blackout-must

[Sylar]

Its NO for me.

A genuine surprise to me BB.

Given your vociferous hatred of the British government and your outspoken views on nuclear weaponry, I would have thought you to be very much pro-Independence.

[Just Alf]

Agreed, was watching the news yesterday morning as the "additional powers" story developed and apparently, according to the BBC reporter, the reason they hadn't been discussed previously is that "the Scots electorate would find it all confusing"

Nearly fell off my seat! I even bumped it back 30 secs to listen again in case I'd misheard :-/

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think we've been expecting this one for some time. Callous disregard for the guy's relatives. Brace yourselves, the British establishment will stop at nothing to get their own way. It's going to get really messy.

I agree Bob, it certainly looks like the gloves are gonna come off in the next fortnight. Even if the Scotsman article has some truth to it, is gaining a no vote so vital that its OK to use ISIS to further the cause? Not to mention the plight of this poor guy.

The upcoming Orange march in Edinburgh is a real cause for concern. It clashes with us being at home and the fact cant be disguised that referendum debate notwithstanding Hibbies and the Orange order don't make for a happy mix. I'm sure there will be an element in our support who will be keen to pop along and give them the finger.

My advice to anybody ( not just Hibbies ) thinking of taking part in even a peaceful counter march or demo is simply 'don't do it' Under normal circumstances I would never voice an opinion like that, but my feeling is that the Orange Order would like nothing better than to start a punch up. The trouble is that even if they do start it the Sunday papers wont paint it that way.

It will go along the lines of ........ 'No matter peoples opinion of the Orange Order they have a democratic right to march and not be attacked by violent elements of the Nats. Is this lack of respect for free speech and peoples rights what we can expect in an independent Scotland?' We can now see the true colours of Nationalism ..... Do the people of Scotland want to live in a country like that?'

IMO the best thing to do is let them get on with it, play their stupid flutes, bang their silly drums and let them go home .... by Monday morning it will all be forgotten and the vast majority of us who either ( like me ) think Kings and Queens belong in history books and fairy tales, or like others don't mind a monarchy but could care less what religion they practice can get on with the business of turning Scotland into a country inclusive to all.

[JimBHibees]

Agreed, was watching the news yesterday morning as the "additional powers" story developed and apparently, according to the BBC reporter, the reason they hadn't been discussed previously is that "the Scots electorate would find it all confusing"

Nearly fell off my seat! I even bumped it back 30 secs to listen again in case I'd misheard :-/

Yep goes along with the too thick and too stupid to govern themselves line.

[CropleyWasGod]

And the hits just keep on coming....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746743/Scottish-sports-stars-face-Rio-2016-Olympic-ban-voters-independence-11-days-time-warns-Games-chief.html

[Phil D. Rolls]

I agree Bob, it certainly looks like the gloves are gonna come off in the next fortnight. Even if the Scotsman article has some truth to it, is gaining a no vote so vital that its OK to use ISIS to further the cause? Not to mention the plight of this poor guy.

The upcoming Orange march in Edinburgh is a real cause for concern. It clashes with us being at home and the fact cant be disguised that referendum debate notwithstanding Hibbies and the Orange order don't make for a happy mix. I'm sure there will be an element in our support who will be keen to pop along and give them the finger.

My advice to anybody ( not just Hibbies ) thinking of taking part in even a peaceful counter march or demo is simply 'don't do it' Under normal circumstances I would never voice an opinion like that, but my feeling is that the Orange Order would like nothing better than to start a punch up. The trouble is that even if they do start it the Sunday papers wont paint it that way.

It will go along the lines of ........ 'No matter peoples opinion of the Orange Order they have a democratic right to march and not be attacked by violent elements of the Nats. Is this lack of respect for free speech and peoples rights what we can expect in an independent Scotland?' We can now see the true colours of Nationalism ..... Do the people of Scotland want to live in a country like that?'

IMO the best thing to do is let them get on with it, play their stupid flutes, bang their silly drums and let them go home .... by Monday morning it will all be forgotten and the vast majority of us who either ( like me ) think Kings and Queens belong in history books and fairy tales, or like others don't mind a monarchy but could care less what religion they practice can get on with the business of turning Scotland into a country inclusive to all.

Fascists are experts at making a few demonstrators look like an army. I fully expect there to be something staged on Saturday, and that we will see pictures of elderly Orangemen with blood pouring down their face. The most tragic of these will grace the front of a tabloid with the headline "Why"?

[calumhibee1]

And the hits just keep on coming....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746743/Scottish-sports-stars-face-Rio-2016-Olympic-ban-voters-independence-11-days-time-warns-Games-chief.html

Would anyone seriously GAF if we missed out on being in the Olympics for one year? :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

Would anyone seriously GAF if we missed out on being in the Olympics for one year? :confused:

Probably not, but the story (or, rather, the headline) is nonsense. There's plenty precedent to bear that out.

Coming up next..... Nicola Sturgeon's devil-worshipping past, and why Scotland will be banned from France 2016.

[JimBHibees]

Would anyone seriously GAF if we missed out on being in the Olympics for one year? :confused:

All he said was that in his opinion it would very difficult. We have heard similar about alot of other 'issues' during this election.