How will Scotland vote come September 18th?

[JimBHibees]

Probably not, but the story (or, rather, the headline) is nonsense. There's plenty precedent to bear that out.

Coming up next..... Nicola Sturgeon's devil-worshipping past, and why Scotland will be banned from France 2016.

I'd heard that as well. Who would have thought? :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd heard that as well. Who would have thought? :greengrin

Here's the deal.

We leak it to the Daily Hail. They publish it. Wee Nicky sues them for billions, enough for us to set up our own central bank.

[Just Alf]

And the hits just keep on coming....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746743/Scottish-sports-stars-face-Rio-2016-Olympic-ban-voters-independence-11-days-time-warns-Games-chief.html

I just cant understand it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27329425

why are they suddenly re-hashing something from 9th May this year.... why would they do such a thing??? :confused:




:cb

[NAE NOOKIE]

Probably not, but the story (or, rather, the headline) is nonsense. There's plenty precedent to bear that out.

Coming up next..... Nicola Sturgeon's devil-worshipping past, and why Scotland will be banned from France 2016.

I was told by a Better together activist that if you read the SNP White Paper backwards it is actually a Grimoire of instructions on Devil Worshipping rituals. Post independence all virgins will be required to register doon the local council as the Parliament may require them to report for what the manifesto refers to as ........... "ceremonial duties" :confused:

[calumhibee1]

Probably not, but the story (or, rather, the headline) is nonsense. There's plenty precedent to bear that out.Coming up next..... Nicola Sturgeon's devil-worshipping past, and why Scotland will be banned from France 2016.

True. However I'd like to think that nobody would be scared into voting no because we'll miss the Olympic games once, even if it wasn't nonsense!

[CropleyWasGod]

I was told by a Better together activist that if you read the SNP White Paper backwards it is actually a Grimoire of instructions on Devil Worshipping rituals. Post independence all virgins will be required to register doon the local council as the Parliament may require them to report for what the manifesto refers to as ........... "ceremonial duties" :confused:

In some parts of the town, that won't take long. :cb

[SlickShoes]

They are now wheeling out Bob Geldof - “You think you guys are p***ed off with Westminster? What do you think it’s like living in London?"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/better-together-takeover-bob-geldof-4161186

Wonder how long before Saint Bono chimes in.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They are now wheeling out Bob Geldof - “You think you guys are p***ed off with Westminster? What do you think it’s like living in London?"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/better-together-takeover-bob-geldof-4161186

Wonder how long before Saint Bono chimes in.


He said: “You think you guys are p***ed off with Westminster? What do you think it’s like living in London? F***ing Londoners are p***ed off with Westminster. The world is changing and needs different institutions, but not just removing ourselves from each other.

So, let me get this clear - Westminster is rotten; the world needs new institutions; don't vote for change. Ok Bob, ok pal.

[NAE NOOKIE]

All he said was that in his opinion it would very difficult. We have heard similar about alot of other 'issues' during this election.

True JBH like:

EU membership

NATO membership

Currency union

UN membership ..... nae evidence for that one, but no doubt somebody has said it.

Defence

Pension provision

Printing our own passports .... I got that one from the DWP's own internal website before I retired from the Civil Service along with a load of other pro union propaganda which apparently wasn't a deliberate, concerted and undemocratic attempt to influence the votes of Scottish Civil Servants .... according at least to Robert Devereux, DWP Permanent Secretary who I E Mailed asking why the DWP thought it had a right to take sides in a democratic process.

Yes that's right ...... we are so useless we wont even be able to print a few booklets with a picture and microchip in.

[NAE NOOKIE]

In some parts of the town, that won't take long. :cb

We have a winner........ :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

There's another poll due on Thursday, which will tell us whether Saturday's seismic 'result' was a blip or something more relevant. Im still predicting 56-44 No but less certain than I was a few weeks ago. Fear will win out.

[NAE NOOKIE]

They are now wheeling out Bob Geldof - “You think you guys are p***ed off with Westminster? What do you think it’s like living in London?"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/better-together-takeover-bob-geldof-4161186

Wonder how long before Saint Bono chimes in.

Bob Geldof is and always will be a hero of mine. What he ( and the shamefully forgotten Midge Ure ) did in the 80s was IMO one of the most amazing events of the 20th century. One of the comments under that article suggesting there was someone else Geldof should have been telling to 'just say no' was as disgusting a thing as I have ever read on the internet ....... Though my feet are firmly planted in the Yes camp and I fundamentally disagree with Geldof on this, I can do without moronic assholes like that on my side.

For a world where "the nation state is dead" they seem to be popping up all over the place. I admire his sentiment, but I'm afraid Bob's united world dream is just that 'a dream'. I have many friends and 3 brothers ... we get along great most of the time, it doesn't mean we all need to live in the same house, or even town.

[The Harp Awakes]

:yawn:
And the hits just keep on coming....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746743/Scottish-sports-stars-face-Rio-2016-Olympic-ban-voters-independence-11-days-time-warns-Games-chief.html

:yawn:

Found some of this nonsense funny at first. Just getting boring now.

[Hibrandenburg]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

Just when you think they can't stoop any lower.

[Hibrandenburg]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-link-to-isis-scots-hostage-1-3534191

This is getting ridiculous now. Expect to see much more of this tripe over the next ten days.

It's project fear that has driven people to Yes. But what's Miliband, Osbourne and the MSM's response? More fear.

I notice Boris Johnson is getting involved now too. That can only be a good thing for the Yes campaign.

Just when you think they can't stoop any lower.

[Jack]

If Westminster now wants to bestow on us more power why hasn't it done so in the last 30 days, 30 years, nay 300 years?

Would all this hastily arranged new powers stuff have been announced if the polls hadn't been so close?

Is Scotland being drip fed/bribed with powers to keep us on side?

Given the history of Westminster in actually doing, rather not doing, anything around Scottish powers does Westminster think we're too thick to take these on? Incredulously that was the excuse they hadn't already been announced!

Smacks of desperatism.

Stay strong. Scotland will once again make a positive contribution to its own history.

[snooky]

I agree Bob, it certainly looks like the gloves are gonna come off in the next fortnight. Even if the Scotsman article has some truth to it, is gaining a no vote so vital that its OK to use ISIS to further the cause? Not to mention the plight of this poor guy.

The upcoming Orange march in Edinburgh is a real cause for concern. It clashes with us being at home and the fact cant be disguised that referendum debate notwithstanding Hibbies and the Orange order don't make for a happy mix. I'm sure there will be an element in our support who will be keen to pop along and give them the finger.

My advice to anybody ( not just Hibbies ) thinking of taking part in even a peaceful counter march or demo is simply 'don't do it' Under normal circumstances I would never voice an opinion like that, but my feeling is that the Orange Order would like nothing better than to start a punch up. The trouble is that even if they do start it the Sunday papers wont paint it that way.

It will go along the lines of ........ 'No matter peoples opinion of the Orange Order they have a democratic right to march and not be attacked by violent elements of the Nats. Is this lack of respect for free speech and peoples rights what we can expect in an independent Scotland?' We can now see the true colours of Nationalism ..... Do the people of Scotland want to live in a country like that?'

IMO the best thing to do is let them get on with it, play their stupid flutes, bang their silly drums and let them go home .... by Monday morning it will all be forgotten and the vast majority of us who either ( like me ) think Kings and Queens belong in history books and fairy tales, or like others don't mind a monarchy but could care less what religion they practice can get on with the business of turning Scotland into a country inclusive to all.

Top post, NN.
The way almost every referendum story is being twisted by the media these days should be fair warning to steer well clear of any likely flashpoints.

[bawheid]

Was just about to post the same link. I grew up with the Scotsman, can't believe how far it has fallen. :(

I grew up with it too. It's an awful paper now.

Today's headlines are:

"Brown's home rule timetable" (except it's not home rule, is it?)

"Firms hang fire on hiring" (which contradicts what's actually written in the piece)

More fear. I guess my main worry is that if they bombard Scotland with enough of it over the next week or so, it'll be enough to sway the vote to no.

Measures will then be put in place to make sure the Union is never on the brink again.

We've got one chance people.

[Betty Boop]

A genuine surprise to me BB.

Given your vociferous hatred of the British government and your outspoken views on nuclear weaponry, I would have thought you to be very much pro-Independence.

While the SNP proposes sharing defense with England and Wales, retaining membership of Nato, and keeping the pound plus the monarchy.

[IWasThere2016]

I grew up with it too. It's an awful paper now.

Today's headlines are:

"Brown's home rule timetable" (except it's not home rule, is it?)

"Firms hang fire on hiring" (which contradicts what's actually written in the piece)

More fear. I guess my main worry is that if they bombard Scotland with enough of it over the next week or so, it'll be enough to sway the vote to no.

Measures will then be put in place to make sure the Union is never on the brink again.

We've got one chance people.

:agree: - YES is the only choice.

[Peevemor]

The Grauniad strikes again


David Cameron can’t help the No campaign – he’s less popular in Scotland than Windows 8


If Scotland divorces Britain, the union jack will have to be redesigned, which is upsetting news for every prick with a union jack cushion on their stupid sofa in their stupid house.


The Sunday Times’s shock poll plunged Westminster into panic mode. The first rule of panic mode is that you don’t talk about panic mode: thus Alistair Darling could quickly be found on the airwaves denying there was any panic at all, adding that his voice only cracks like that when he’s feeling especially confident and what’s more, he always defecates in his own trousers during interviews.

:tee hee:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

[CropleyWasGod]

While the SNP proposes sharing defense with England and Wales, retaining membership of Nato, and keeping the pound plus the monarchy.

I am surprised, too, that you're voting No.:)

Are these your main reasons for voting that way? If so, independence offers you a better chance of leaving NATO, and getting rid of the monarchy. There's no chance of those if we stay in the UK.

[lord bunberry]

While the SNP proposes sharing defense with England and Wales, retaining membership of Nato, and keeping the pound plus the monarchy.

The SNP might not be the biggest party in an independent Scotland

[Betty Boop]

I am surprised, too, that you're voting No.:)

Are these your main reasons for voting that way? If so, independence offers you a better chance of leaving NATO, and getting rid of the monarchy. There's no chance of those if we stay in the UK.

No they're just a few. Do you think an Independent Scotland will be a Socialist Scotland ? :greengrin I'm going along to listen to Tommy Sheridan speaking about the Socialist case for Independence on Thurs at the Appleton Tower, be interesting to hear his take on things. :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

No they're just a few. Do you think an Independent Scotland will be a Socialist Scotland ? :greengrin I'm going along to listen to Tommy Sheridan speaking about the Socialist case for Independence on Thurs at the Appleton Tower, be interesting to hear his take on things. :agree:

It depends on how ones defines Socialism :greengrin

Put it this way, there's a better chance of a left-ish Scotland than in the UK. Even our Tories are raving socialists compared to Boris et al :wink:

Keep the door open, though, and listen to what Tommy says.

[JeMeSouviens]

It depends on how ones defines Socialism :greengrin

Put it this way, there's a better chance of a left-ish Scotland than in the UK. Even our Tories are raving socialists compared to Boris et al :wink:

Keep the door open, though, and listen to what Tommy says.

Take your ear defenders! :wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm still genuinely undecided on how to vote, so many issues still undecided in my mind. Of course I want what's best for Scotland as I live here but not entirely sure yet.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm still genuinely undecided on how to vote, so many issues still undecided in my mind. Of course I want what's best for Scotland as I live here but not entirely sure yet.

What are the issues? We'll sort them for you :)

Seriously, I won't try and twist your arm..... genuinely interested in what is exercising people's minds at this stage.

[Scouse Hibee]

What are the issues? We'll sort them for you :)

Seriously, I won't try and twist your arm..... genuinely interested in what is exercising people's minds at this stage.
Will I really be financially better off or will taxes increase in order to maintain Scotlands public services.

Can Scotland sustain it's promises regarding the nhs?

Will this country really prosper independently?

That's just for starters; so many counter arguments for everything have me very undecided.

[hibsbollah]

Will I really be financially better off or will taxes increase in order to maintain Scotlands public services.

Can Scotland sustain it's promises regarding the nhs?

Will this country really prosper independently?

That's just for starters; so many counter arguments for everything have me very undecided.

1. Nobody knows. If they say they do, dont believe them.
2. Noone knows because noone bothered to cost the proposals in the white paper.
3. See #1.

So you're still none the wiser :greengrin

[marinello59]

No they're just a few. Do you think an Independent Scotland will be a Socialist Scotland ? :greengrin I'm going along to listen to Tommy Sheridan speaking about the Socialist case for Independence on Thurs at the Appleton Tower, be interesting to hear his take on things. :agree:

Tommy Sheridan will have you voting Yes, I'm sure of that. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Will I really be financially better off or will taxes increase in order to maintain Scotlands public services.

Can Scotland sustain it's promises regarding the nhs?

Will this country really prosper independently?

That's just for starters; so many counter arguments for everything have me very undecided.

King Kenny has the answers you're looking for. :wink:

[Pretty Boy]

Had an ask around my office today and only 2 of us would admit to voting yes. The other 10 were all no.

One thing that has struck me is how important the female vote could be next week. Of the 10 who said no, 8 were women. This is purely anecdotal evidence but the vast majority of women I know are voting no. I wonder if Yes Scotland have picked up on any trend here and if they will begin targeting the female vote this week?

[hibsbollah]

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/will-the-gender-gap-narrow-findings-from-2011-and-quebec/

This is a good link. Even in the midst of the current polls there is still a ten point gap in favour of No amongst women, and women are more likely to be among the 18% still undecided than men. (Although counterintuitively this could also mean more undecided women who instinctively feel 'no' could just not bother, hence boosting the Yes vote).

[ACLeith]

Had an ask around my office today and only 2 of us would admit to voting yes. The other 10 were all no.

One thing that has struck me is how important the female vote could be next week. Of the 10 who said no, 8 were women. This is purely anecdotal evidence but the vast majority of women I know are voting no. I wonder if Yes Scotland have picked up on any trend here and if they will begin targeting the female vote this week?

Of the women I know who have said how they are voting, YES outnumbers NO by about 10 to 1, though there are a lot who I don't know what their plans are. And they range in age from 20s through to 80s! Just shows you can never trust an opinion poll, though the hilarious panic these last 48 hours suggests BT know something beyond the published polls?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Had an ask around my office today and only 2 of us would admit to voting yes. The other 10 were all no.

One thing that has struck me is how important the female vote could be next week. Of the 10 who said no, 8 were women. This is purely anecdotal evidence but the vast majority of women I know are voting no. I wonder if Yes Scotland have picked up on any trend here and if they will begin targeting the female vote this week?

Having worked in predominantly female workplaces for some time, I can say that what they say as a group and what they think individually, are different things.

That said, most of the ones at work are not in favour, citing every reason that project fear has planted in their minds (or that's how it seems). Most of the ones outside work say different.

Its a quandary which will not be solved till next week. I am reminded of why Major got a shock victory against Kinnock in 1992. People didn't want to sound unpopular by backing him, and it turned out a lot of Dont Knows and even "Yes to Kinnock" had been too scared to admit what they really thought.

The other thing is that people sometimes vote for something, believing that it will never happen. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

For me, personally, I feel we can screw a bit more out of the Union. How about they stick a clause in for a second referendum in 2017, so we can vote on how well Devo Max is working?

[DaveF]

Had an ask around my office today and only 2 of us would admit to voting yes. The other 10 were all no.

One thing that has struck me is how important the female vote could be next week. Of the 10 who said no, 8 were women. This is purely anecdotal evidence but the vast majority of women I know are voting no. I wonder if Yes Scotland have picked up on any trend here and if they will begin targeting the female vote this week?

The vast majority of people in my work (Bank) are No voters. If YES is to win, I still think there has to be a big turn around in voting intentions.

[Moulin Yarns]

the reason for the pound dip. Not the referendum as such, more the fact the UK will lose north sea revenues


http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/scottish-independence-uk-dependency

[NAE NOOKIE]

Having worked in predominantly female workplaces for some time, I can say that what they say as a group and what they think individually, are different things.

That said, most of the ones at work are not in favour, citing every reason that project fear has planted in their minds (or that's how it seems). Most of the ones outside work say different.

Its a quandary which will not be solved till next week. I am reminded of why Major got a shock victory against Kinnock in 1992. People didn't want to sound unpopular by backing him, and it turned out a lot of Dont Knows and even "Yes to Kinnock" had been too scared to admit what they really thought.

The other thing is that people sometimes vote for something, believing that it will never happen. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

For me, personally, I feel we can screw a bit more out of the Union. How about they stick a clause in for a second referendum in 2017, so we can vote on how well Devo Max is working?

Geeze back Berwick on Tweed :greengrin

[DaveF]

*Some of the undecided's are beginning to nip my head now.

Radio Scotland had 2 young kids on the radio going home - 1 of whom was a well spoken young lad but and a clear No voter. The other a lass from Motherwell who sounded unsure if she was alive or not never mind which way to vote :greengrin

Then BBC Scotland in a Fife pub:

Undecided No 1 wanted facts not If's and promises but was happy Cameron and Co were coming up as it showed they cared. Didn't sound particularly undecided.

Undecided No2 wan English bloke worried about his pension. That'll be a No voter then.

Undecided No3 was more or less introduced as a Yes voter.

*Not an Official Yes campaign stance :greengrin

[snooky]

No matter what the outcome, I hope that both winning and losing sides show a bit of class and dignity in the aftermath.
The World will be watching via their media and the last thing we want is a bunch of 'face-painted-blue' eedjits waving claymores or hoards of piss artists singing 'Rule Brittania'.

However, feel free to do your thing once the global media folk have gone. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Had an ask around my office today and only 2 of us would admit to voting yes. The other 10 were all no.

One thing that has struck me is how important the female vote could be next week. Of the 10 who said no, 8 were women. This is purely anecdotal evidence but the vast majority of women I know are voting no. I wonder if Yes Scotland have picked up on any trend here and if they will begin targeting the female vote this week?

Funny you should say that.



http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-alistair-darling-set-for-web-debate-1-3534996

[MyJo]

Have any of these polls covered the 16-17 year olds that are eligible to vote in this referendum or are they targeting 18+ only like they would when polling for a general election?

[steakbake]

Have any of these polls covered the 16-17 year olds that are eligible to vote in this referendum or are they targeting 18+ only like they would when polling for a general election?

First age category is 17-24. So yeah, they are being asked and included and factored into the weighting.

[s.a.m]

My 16 year old daughter has been surveyed by Ipsos-Mori. Phoned to speak to me, but having checked if there was anyone in the house in the 16-24 age group in the house, wanted to speak to her instead. Apparently they're harder to find.

[MyJo]

My 16 year old daughter has been surveyed by Ipsos-Mori. Phoned to speak to me, but having checked if there was anyone in the house in the 16-24 age group in the house, wanted to speak to her instead. Apparently they're harder to find.

Thats what i was thinking. They wont be on the electoral roll or credit reference agencies etc so it would be difficult to trace and poll that particular group and i think there would be a decent amount of the younger voters inclined towards a Yes vote.

[Peevemor]

Thats what i was thinking. They wont be on the electoral roll or credit reference agencies etc so it would be difficult to trace and poll that particular group and i think there would be a decent amount of the younger voters inclined towards a Yes vote.

And if they're going to vote no - ground the wee sh***bags!

[Dinkydoo]

Something that has been annoying me this past week are the people who are either undecided or No because "we aren't getting any solid facts on the future of the NHS, pensions, <insert issue here>" when, whether we stay as part of the Union or not, what we are really voting for is not an immediate solution to all of these problems but rather, who we want to deal with them - a UK elected government or a Scottish one. Not a lot of undecided voters that I've spoken to seem to understand that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Geeze back Berwick on Tweed :greengrin

I was hoping for the Falklands.


*Some of the undecided's are beginning to nip my head now.

Radio Scotland had 2 young kids on the radio going home - 1 of whom was a well spoken young lad but and a clear No voter. The other a lass from Motherwell who sounded unsure if she was alive or not never mind which way to vote :greengrin

Then BBC Scotland in a Fife pub:

Undecided No 1 wanted facts not If's and promises but was happy Cameron and Co were coming up as it showed they cared. Didn't sound particularly undecided.

Undecided No2 wan English bloke worried about his pension. That'll be a No voter then.

Undecided No3 was more or less introduced as a Yes voter.

*Not an Official Yes campaign stance :greengrin

Spot on. That girl in Cupar was typical of the undecideds for me.


Something that has been annoying me this past week are the people who are either undecided or No because "we aren't getting any solid facts on the future of the NHS, pensions, <insert issue here>" when, whether we stay as part of the Union or not, what we are really voting for is not an immediate solution to all of these problems but rather, who we want to deal with them - a UK elected government or a Scottish one. Not a lot of undecided voters that I've spoken to seem to understand that.

I think if people are still undecided at this stage, they have problems with decision making in general.

[Moulin Yarns]

Something that has been annoying me this past week are the people who are either undecided or No because "we aren't getting any solid facts on the future of the NHS, pensions, <insert issue here>" when, whether we stay as part of the Union or not, what we are really voting for is not an immediate solution to all of these problems but rather, who we want to deal with them - a UK elected government or a Scottish one. Not a lot of undecided voters that I've spoken to seem to understand that.

The latest 'FACT' being put out by Better Together.

PLEASE SHARE. If anyone was in any doubt that the risks of separation are real. At least £2.3 billion was wipe off the value of Scottish companies yesterday as investors reacted to the prospect of breaking up the UK. Why does this matter? This is money taken out of the Scottish economy means less money to fund our NHS. This is money taken out of Scottish companies risking Scottish jobs. And this is real money taken out of people’s pensions.

So, let me get this right, Shareholders of Scottish Companies are responsible for the funding of the NHS and State Pensions now.
:confused:


That's good news as I will stop paying my NI and Superannuation contributions. :rolleyes:

[JimBHibees]

Spot on. That girl in Cupar was typical of the undecideds for me.

I think if people are still undecided at this stage, they have problems with decision making in general.

Agree with that was the same this morning on Radio Scotland had a yes and no and undecided. The yes couldnt have been more diffident if he tried. If I was cynical :greengrin I would say some are being hand picked to suit the agenda.

[Betty Boop]

In the event of a Yes vote, what happens to the benefit system, Tax credits etc, etc. ?

[CropleyWasGod]

In the event of a Yes vote, what happens to the benefit system, Tax credits etc, etc. ?

We have our own system.

In the short term, I don't see that that would be much different from the current one.

[Betty Boop]

We have our own system.

Do we ?

[CropleyWasGod]

Do we ?

Sorry, should have said "we would have".

[MyJo]

We have our own system.

In the short term, I don't see that that would be much different from the current one.

We will still be part of the uk until may 2016 anyway, after that there will be an election and he winners of that election will be in power in an independent Scotland and they will then start to shape the tax and benefits system etc to our requirements

[Beefster]

We will still be part of the uk until may 2016 anyway, after that there will be an election and he winners of that election will be in power in an independent Scotland and they will then start to shape the tax and benefits system etc to our requirements

So what are all the promises about ending poverty, getting rid of nukes etc etc about?

[MyJo]

So what are all the promises about ending poverty, getting rid of nukes etc etc about?

That's the plan IF the SNP are voted in after independence.

We don't know what any of the other parties who could be elected to run the country would do as they are too busy telling us we cannot survive on our own and to cling to the coat-tails of the UK forevermore.

[xyz23jc]

*Some of the undecided's are beginning to nip my head now.

Radio Scotland had 2 young kids on the radio going home - 1 of whom was a well spoken young lad but and a clear No voter. The other a lass from Motherwell who sounded unsure if she was alive or not never mind which way to vote :greengrin

Then BBC Scotland in a Fife pub:

Undecided No 1 wanted facts not If's and promises but was happy Cameron and Co were coming up as it showed they cared. Didn't sound particularly undecided.

Undecided No2 wan English bloke worried about his pension. That'll be a No voter then.

Undecided No3 was more or less introduced as a Yes voter.

*Not an Official Yes campaign stance :greengrin

Average BBC impartiality then! :>

[s.a.m]

Herald Editor‏@Herald_Editor 2m (https://twitter.com/Herald_Editor/status/509747703669342208) LATEST: Daily Record/Survation poll including undecided voters: No 47.6%, Yes 42.4%, Don't Know 9.9% #indyref (https://twitter.com/hashtag/indyref?src=hash)

Excluding Don't knows:
Yes 47%
No 53%
#indyref

[Dinkydoo]

I think if people are still undecided at this stage, they have problems with decision making in general.

...and, rather than spoil the vote, I think they'll probably vote No. Which is a shame but not surprising as most people would probably opt to resist change when they were so unsure of what that change would bring. I don't sympathise with them however, they should be doing the research required to come to a relatively informed decision either way.

[Dinkydoo]

The latest 'FACT' being put out by Better Together.

PLEASE SHARE. If anyone was in any doubt that the risks of separation are real. At least £2.3 billion was wipe off the value of Scottish companies yesterday as investors reacted to the prospect of breaking up the UK. Why does this matter? This is money taken out of the Scottish economy means less money to fund our NHS. This is money taken out of Scottish companies risking Scottish jobs. And this is real money taken out of people’s pensions.

So, let me get this right, Shareholders of Scottish Companies are responsible for the funding of the NHS and State Pensions now.
:confused:


That's good news as I will stop paying my NI and Superannuation contributions. :rolleyes:

The link to pension and public service funding is a bit........imaginative, to say the least.

[snooky]

Average BBC impartiality then! :>

If you think that's bad you should have watched the BBC news tonight.
They're almost screaming for the hanging of Salmond and his followers. (Okay, I'm slightly exaggerating there :wink:).
The bareface one-sidedness of the reporting will, ironically, add more momentum to the Yes side (IMO).

ps Where did that angry smiley at the top come from, BTW?
FFS, don't tell me Hibsnet are part of the BBCorp.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you think that's bad you should have watched the BBC news tonight.
They're almost screaming for the hanging of Salmond and his followers. (Okay, I'm slightly exaggerating there :wink:).
The bareface one-sidedness of the reporting will, ironically, add more momentum to the Yes side (IMO).

ps Where did that angry smiley at the top come from, BTW?
FFS, don't tell me Hibsnet are part of the BBCorp.

It's corny and vomit inducing.

[Peevemor]

The French TV news just said a poll released today showed yes at 53%. Any idea where that's from?

[Peevemor]

So what are all the promises about ending poverty, getting rid of nukes etc etc about?

I'm sure you know fine that in the event of a Yes vote, nothing is going to happen overnight. This is a brand new country's future we're talking about.

[Pretty Boy]

Reports on Twitter saying an unnamed MP in the No camp has leaked that internal polls show Yes leading. Also admit they expect to lose Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Reports on Twitter saying an unnamed MP in the No camp has leaked that internal polls show Yes leading. Also admit they expect to lose Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow.

Be great if they lose Glasgow.

[Leith Green]

Reports on Twitter saying an unnamed MP in the No camp has leaked that internal polls show Yes leading. Also admit they expect to lose Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow.

Where did you see that pretty boy? I dont get how all the other polls say different to this one, i smell a rat!

[Pretty Boy]

Where did you see that pretty boy? I dont get how all the other polls say different to this one, i smell a rat!

https://mobile.twitter.com/OMalleyAndrew/status/509753463379873792

No idea how reliable that info is but it's there so thought it worth mentioning.

[The Harp Awakes]

Reports on Twitter saying an unnamed MP in the No camp has leaked that internal polls show Yes leading. Also admit they expect to lose Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow.

Backs up Rupert Murdoch's claim last week that the Yes campaign's internal polls were suggesting 54/46 in favour of yes. Also would explain the reason Westminster has gone into meltdown and why the Unionist politicians are presently running around like headless chickens.

[Leith Green]

I for one dont think that what we are seeing from westminster is based on one you gov poll, its far more likely that they will have as much if not more of a grasp of how its panning out.. I think there could be something in that, its looking too close to call just now

[The Harp Awakes]

If you think that's bad you should have watched the BBC news tonight.
They're almost screaming for the hanging of Salmond and his followers. (Okay, I'm slightly exaggerating there :wink:).
The bareface one-sidedness of the reporting will, ironically, add more momentum to the Yes side (IMO).

ps Where did that angry smiley at the top come from, BTW?
FFS, don't tell me Hibsnet are part of the BBCorp.

Jackie Bird was getting overly emotional and animated in her questioning of Alex Salmond on Reporting Scotland tonight. Couldn't hide her allegiances. Wee Eck handled it pretty well and remained calm and controlled throughout.

On a separate point, since the weekend every BBC News bulletin I've seen has led with the Unionist agenda followed by the Yes position/response. Very subtle but deliberate bias by the BBC. As Salmond said tonight, in the days leading up to the referendum, Westminster and the unionist media will throw the Kitchen sink at the Scottish electorate using every scare tactic they can think off to put them off voting yes. I don't think it will work though as the no campaign has already been discredited for using the same tactics.

[Stranraer]

I think it's obvious the BBC have a pro-union agenda but I'm kinda over it.

Delivered more YES leaflets and newspapers in an a village on the outskirts of my town and saw plenty of yes stickers so although we may be the only Conservative constituency in Scotland I am hoping for a shock result!

Picking up more leaflets tomorrow.

[Leith Green]

I was actually wondering as well wether the No camp would have knowledge on how the postal vote was looking so far, lots were posted last week i think, made me wonder wether that was telling? Also would explain why Yes havent has a go about Nos devo chat after postal votes cast.

Could there be something in that?

[adhibs]

I was actually wondering as well wether the No camp would have knowledge on how the postal vote was looking so far, lots were posted last week i think, made me wonder wether that was telling? Also would explain why Yes havent has a go about Nos devo chat after postal votes cast.

Could there be something in that?

would postal votes not be held and counted with the other's after the polls close?

[ekhibee]

Jackie Bird was getting overly emotional and animated in her questioning of Alex Salmond on Reporting Scotland tonight. Couldn't hide her allegiances. Wee Eck handled it pretty well and remained calm and controlled throughout.

On a separate point, since the weekend every BBC News bulletin I've seen has led with the Unionist agenda followed by the Yes position/response. Very subtle but deliberate bias by the BBC. As Salmond said tonight, in the days leading up to the referendum, Westminster and the unionist media will throw the Kitchen sink at the Scottish electorate using every scare tactic they can think off to put them off voting yes. I don't think it will work though as the no campaign has already been discredited for using the same tactics.
To be fair I thought she tore Alistair Darling to bits yesterday, but I agree, the BBC has a definite bias. I also noticed that the counting is being done by 'independent officials'. Where do these 'independent officials' come from? I would suggest they shouldn't come from England!

[Leith Green]

would postal votes not be held and counted with the other's after the polls close?


I honestly dont know, does make you wonder though..

[Beefster]

That's the plan IF the SNP are voted in after independence.

We don't know what any of the other parties who could be elected to run the country would do as they are too busy telling us we cannot survive on our own and to cling to the coat-tails of the UK forevermore.

Except the last paragraph hasn't really happened, has it? It's a nice sound bite though, I'll give you that. However, it's about as realistic as claiming the SNP have promised that we'll all be millionaires and can retire once we become independent.


I'm sure you know fine that in the event of a Yes vote, nothing is going to happen overnight. This is a brand new country's future we're talking about.

It still hasn't stopped me reading/hearing for months about how I should vote yes to end poverty/nukes/bedroom tax etc. Maybe "Vote yes and then for the SNP later" might be more accurate.

Aside from anything, there is plenty more that the SNP could be doing to combat poverty now but they choose not to.

[JimBHibees]

Jackie Bird was getting overly emotional and animated in her questioning of Alex Salmond on Reporting Scotland tonight. Couldn't hide her allegiances. Wee Eck handled it pretty well and remained calm and controlled throughout.

On a separate point, since the weekend every BBC News bulletin I've seen has led with the Unionist agenda followed by the Yes position/response. Very subtle but deliberate bias by the BBC. As Salmond said tonight, in the days leading up to the referendum, Westminster and the unionist media will throw the Kitchen sink at the Scottish electorate using every scare tactic they can think off to put them off voting yes. I don't think it will work though as the no campaign has already been discredited for using the same tactics.

Been like that for weeks. First part unionist bit but the yes campaign say only independence would give powers. Absolutely disgusting.

[JimBHibees]

Herald Editor‏@Herald_Editor 2m (https://twitter.com/Herald_Editor/status/509747703669342208) LATEST: Daily Record/Survation poll including undecided voters: No 47.6%, Yes 42.4%, Don't Know 9.9% #indyref (https://twitter.com/hashtag/indyref?src=hash)

Excluding Don't knows:
Yes 47%
No 53%
#indyref

Disappointing that.

[xyz23jc]

So what are all the promises about ending poverty, getting rid of nukes etc etc about?

Dreams my friend, hopes... not fears! Rome was not built in a day.

[xyz23jc]

...and, rather than spoil the vote, I think they'll probably vote No. Which is a shame but not surprising as most people would probably opt to resist change when they were so unsure of what that change would bring. I don't sympathise with them however, they should be doing the research required to come to a relatively informed decision either way.

People need to be told, No is not don't know, if you don't know, don't vote! Simples!

[xyz23jc]

The French TV news just said a poll released today showed yes at 53%. Any idea where that's from?

France! ;) The auld alliance, knew it wid come guid...Vive Le god! ;)

[xyz23jc]

Be great if they lose Glasgow.

Even better if they lose Aberdeen!

[xyz23jc]

Jackie Bird was getting overly emotional and animated in her questioning of Alex Salmond on Reporting Scotland tonight. Couldn't hide her allegiances. Wee Eck handled it pretty well and remained calm and controlled throughout.

On a separate point, since the weekend every BBC News bulletin I've seen has led with the Unionist agenda followed by the Yes position/response. Very subtle but deliberate bias by the BBC. As Salmond said tonight, in the days leading up to the referendum, Westminster and the unionist media will throw the Kitchen sink at the Scottish electorate using every scare tactic they can think off to put them off voting yes. I don't think it will work though as the no campaign has already been discredited for using the same tactics.

Seein' it big time! C****!

[Future17]

I was actually wondering as well wether the No camp would have knowledge on how the postal vote was looking so far, lots were posted last week i think, made me wonder wether that was telling? Also would explain why Yes havent has a go about Nos devo chat after postal votes cast.

Could there be something in that?


would postal votes not be held and counted with the other's after the polls close?


I honestly dont know, does make you wonder though..

Postal vote opening sessions have been taking place for a few days now depending on where in the country you are. When the ballot papers are removed from their envelopes they are kept face down by staff members so observers and agents can't see how people have voted.

No votes are counted until after 10pm on 18 September.

[DaveF]

Herald Editor‏@Herald_Editor 2m (https://twitter.com/Herald_Editor/status/509747703669342208) LATEST: Daily Record/Survation poll including undecided voters: No 47.6%, Yes 42.4%, Don't Know 9.9% #indyref (https://twitter.com/hashtag/indyref?src=hash)

Excluding Don't knows:
Yes 47%
No 53%
#indyref

Not great - I think that's up 1% for YES since their last poll.

[MyJo]

Except the last paragraph hasn't really happened, has it? It's a nice sound bite though, I'll give you that. However, it's about as realistic as claiming the SNP have promised that we'll all be millionaires and can retire once we become independent

Maybe i'm missing the part where anyone other than the SNP and the Greens have given us an indication of thier vision for Scotland should we choose to be independent?

Scottish Labour, Conservatives and Lib-dems have done nothing but tell us how independence will not work, how the scottish people aren't programmed to decide how our country is run and that Scotland's future is to continue to be governed by Westminster and be grateful to them for allowing us to have some "extra powers" if and when they see fit to bestow them upon us.





It still hasn't stopped me reading/hearing for months about how I should vote yes to end poverty/nukes/bedroom tax etc. Maybe "Vote yes and then for the SNP later" might be more accurate.

Aside from anything, there is plenty more that the SNP could be doing to combat poverty now but they choose not to.

The only way we can get rid of Trident and the Bedroom Tax is by voting Yes, vote No and what the westminster government decides will stand regardless of our opnion on it and scotland will never have the power to make these decisions for ourselves no matter who is in power in Holyrood.

Vote Yes and then see what the rest of Scotlands political parties propose to do about things like Trident, Corporation tax, State benefits, welfare etc.

Whats to stop Scottish Labour proposing to keep trident based at faslane in a co-operative agreement with rUK in exchange for a currency union for example if they get into power in 2016?

[Stranraer]

Maybe i'm missing the part where anyone other than the SNP and the Greens have given us an indication of thier vision for Scotland should we choose to be independent?

Scottish Labour, Conservatives and Lib-dems have done nothing but tell us how independence will not work, how the scottish people aren't programmed to decide how our country is run and that Scotland's future is to continue to be governed by Westminster and be grateful to them for allowing us to have some "extra powers" if and when they see fit to bestow them upon us.






The only way we can get rid of Trident and the Bedroom Tax is by voting Yes, vote No and what the westminster government decides will stand regardless of our opnion on it and scotland will never have the power to make these decisions for ourselves no matter who is in power in Holyrood.

Vote Yes and then see what the rest of Scotlands political parties propose to do about things like Trident, Corporation tax, State benefits, welfare etc.

Whats to stop Scottish Labour proposing to keep trident based at faslane in a co-operative agreement with rUK in exchange for a currency union for example if they get into power in 2016?

Absolutely right in regards to the No lot refusing to tell us why we would be better off with a No vote.

On another point you made, I really really hope Labour are never elected again.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Absolutely right in regards to the No lot refusing to tell us why we would be better off with a No vote.

On another point you made, I really really hope Labour are never elected again.



Regardless of the referendum result the Scottish Labour party have rightly lived up to their reputation as Scotland's "Red Tories".

I respect the real Tories as they are right up front with their core beliefs and nasty opinions and policies but the "Red Tories" stink of underhand corruption,double dealing,nepotism and jobs fur ra boys.

[marinello59]

Regardless of the referendum result the Scottish Labour party have rightly lived up to their reputation as Scotland's "Red Tories".

I respect the real Tories as they are right up front with their core beliefs and nasty opinions and policies but the "Red Tories" stink of underhand corruption,double dealing,nepotism and jobs fur ra boys.

Just like all the other mainstream parties then?

[Leith Green]

How very interesting, the post from pretty boy yesterday referring to a leak in the No campaigns private polls suggested they were losing....

Seems the leak from an unknown No m.p , was made to Faisal Islam, sky's political editor.. Its on twitter, Yes people seem to respect him and don't seem to doubt his version of events

If that were to be believed, then it coincides with Rupert Murdoch saying Yes campaigns private polls had them 54 to 46 on Sunday.. It would also go along way to help explain the completely shocking panic reaction from Westminster

It would also call into doubt the integrity and timing of these polls by you gov and survation, who are pulling their strings??

[Leith Green]

Oh and forgot to add, the leak also suggested that the polls were narrowing well before the 2nd debate

[Beefster]

How very interesting, the post from pretty boy yesterday referring to a leak in the No campaigns private polls suggested they were losing....

Seems the leak from an unknown No m.p , was made to Faisal Islam, sky's political editor.. Its on twitter, Yes people seem to respect him and don't seem to doubt his version of events

If that were to be believed, then it coincides with Rupert Murdoch saying Yes campaigns private polls had them 54 to 46 on Sunday.. It would also go along way to help explain the completely shocking panic reaction from Westminster

It would also call into doubt the integrity and timing of these polls by you gov and survation, who are pulling their strings??

I'm dubious that the 'leak' is actually true. It's not on Islam's Twitter feed AFAIK and it doesn't appear to be on the Sky News site. Without confirmation, it's no more reliable than me posting on Twitter than Olivia Munn has proposed (which I'd have to turn down as I'm married).

Do the Yes people trust Islam?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...interview.html

It's more likely that the loons on Twitter trust whoever it takes to justify their opinions or give them optimism.

Incidentally, IIRC, Survation were held up on here as the paragon of polling methods when their results were closer than everyone else.

[Leith Green]

I'm dubious that the 'leak' is actually true. It's not on Islam's Twitter feed AFAIK and it doesn't appear to be on the Sky News site. Without confirmation, it's no more reliable than me posting on Twitter than Olivia Munn has proposed (which I'd have to turn down as I'm married).

Do the Yes people trust Islam?





http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...interview.html

It's more likely that the loons on Twitter trust whoever it takes to justify their opinions or give them optimism.

Incidentally, IIRC, Survation were held up on here as the paragon of polling methods when their results were closer than everyone else.



Its on his twitter, i read it there myself

[ekhibee]

I don't know if this is controversial or not, but a lot might depend on how the large centers of population in Scotland vote. Believe it or not, I actually think Glasgow will vote Yes and Edinburgh will vote No. I openly admit I don't have any figures to back this up at all, it's just a feeling I have. I think the rural areas will, for the most part, vote Yes. I think Aberdeen might vote Yes, but Dundee No. Personally I'll be voting Yes, but either way, I agree with an earlier poster who said it would be better if there was a comfortable majority for whoever does win it in terms of the possible recriminations and so on that might exist in the aftermath. Although as I speak the last poll, the Daily Record one, gave the No's a 53-47 lead, I still think that isn't necessarily a true reflection of how Scottish people will vote. From a personal point of view I hope we do take an opportunity like this, we'll probably never have this chance again, in my lifetime anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't know if this is controversial or not, but a lot might depend on how the large centers of population in Scotland vote. Believe it or not, I actually think Glasgow will vote Yes and Edinburgh will vote No. I openly admit I don't have any figures to back this up at all, it's just a feeling I have. I think the rural areas will, for the most part, vote Yes. I think Aberdeen might vote Yes, but Dundee No. Personally I'll be voting Yes, but either way, I agree with an earlier poster who said it would be better if there was a comfortable majority for whoever does win it in terms of the possible recriminations and so on that might exist in the aftermath. Although as I speak the last poll, the Daily Record one, gave the No's a 53-47 lead, I still think that isn't necessarily a true reflection of how Scottish people will vote. From a personal point of view I hope we do take an opportunity like this, we'll probably never have this chance again, in my lifetime anyway.

Not controversial at all.

I'd agree about Edinburgh and Glasgow. Disagree about Dundee, not sure about Aberdeen.

I posted before that, IMO, 1.8m is the magic number. If Glasgow is any less than 60:40 Yes, I think No is the likely winner.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't know if this is controversial or not, but a lot might depend on how the large centers of population in Scotland vote. Believe it or not, I actually think Glasgow will vote Yes and Edinburgh will vote No. I openly admit I don't have any figures to back this up at all, it's just a feeling I have. I think the rural areas will, for the most part, vote Yes. I think Aberdeen might vote Yes, but Dundee No. Personally I'll be voting Yes, but either way, I agree with an earlier poster who said it would be better if there was a comfortable majority for whoever does win it in terms of the possible recriminations and so on that might exist in the aftermath. Although as I speak the last poll, the Daily Record one, gave the No's a 53-47 lead, I still think that isn't necessarily a true reflection of how Scottish people will vote. From a personal point of view I hope we do take an opportunity like this, we'll probably never have this chance again, in my lifetime anyway.

I would say Aberdeen and Dundee will be the other way round. I have a friend who works in the oil industry and he is really nervous, and a lot of Aberdeen is likely to be the same, got at by their employers, possibly.

[ekhibee]

Not controversial at all.

I'd agree about Edinburgh and Glasgow. Disagree about Dundee, not sure about Aberdeen.

I posted before that, IMO, 1.8m is the magic number. If Glasgow is any less than 60:40 Yes, I think No is the likely winner.
That's interesting stats! If 1.8m is the figure needed that's certainly well within range IMO. 1 or 2 factors that might, or might not have an effect as regards that; the fallout from the Commonwealth Games working together stuff, (for example Hoy is most definitely a No), Rangers fans, and the fact that Dundee seems to have received quite a lot of National Lottery funding to help fund different projects in the city.

[Leith Green]

Check out the mail, telegraph, and Belfast chronicle (lol) articles declaring North Korea coming out in support of Scottish Independence..

Then read the article properly and see who makes the quotes, a journalist from north Korea who lives in Japan

This is quite obviously trying to compare north Korea to an independent Scotland, and put the idea into peoples minds
This kind of reporting is getting so biased, its tedious, and sneaky.. And surprise surprise it makes more headlines than Salmond quite rightly attacking the BBC earlier.

This has got to be the most biased media reporting of anything i have ever seen before...

[snooky]

Check out the mail, telegraph, and Belfast chronicle (lol) articles declaring North Korea coming out in support of Scottish Independence..

Then read the article properly and see who makes the quotes, a journalist from north Korea who lives in Japan

This is quite obviously trying to compare north Korea to an independent Scotland, and put the idea into peoples minds
This kind of reporting is getting so biased, its tedious, and sneaky.. And surprise surprise it makes more headlines than Salmond quite rightly attacking the BBC earlier.

This has got to be the most biased media reporting of anything i have ever seen before...

The saddest thing for me is, because of their inuendos, manipulated headlines and bias reporting, I am way past the point of believing anything they say.
Cry wolf, BBC. Cry wolf, the media.
Shame on the lot of you.

[Peevemor]

I would say Aberdeen and Dundee will be the other way round. I have a friend who works in the oil industry and he is really nervous, and a lot of Aberdeen is likely to be the same, got at by their employers, possibly.

My understanding is that Dundee will return a convincing yes.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Is Olivia Munn going to sway many voters? If so, she has plenty competition! How does Cheryl feel?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

1.8m is the magic number.

I've believed for about thirty years that its three!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Sorry guys.

[Stranraer]

Regardless of the referendum result the Scottish Labour party have rightly lived up to their reputation as Scotland's "Red Tories".

I respect the real Tories as they are right up front with their core beliefs and nasty opinions and policies but the "Red Tories" stink of underhand corruption,double dealing,nepotism and jobs fur ra boys.

I think that's why I despise them so much. What you see is what you get with the Tories and I respect them for that at least. I would rather vote for Mr. Blobby than any Labour candidate.

[Beefster]

Is Olivia Munn going to sway many voters? If so, she has plenty competition! How does Cheryl feel?

That Cheryl punter isn't even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Olivia Munn.

[snooky]

That Cheryl punter isn't even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Olivia Munn.

:agree: She's a honeymunnster :love ya!:

[Sylar]

My understanding is that Dundee will return a convincing yes.

That was the overwhelming sensation I got when I was up visiting a couple of weeks ago. Yes flags/signs/campaigners everywhere :agree:

[Leith Green]

Another BBC news at ten, another complete brainwashing attempt, just getting so ridiculous.. How are the high percentage of scots voting Yes ever meant to trust the Government, the media, or the license fee supported BBC if it is a no vote

Im not embarrassed of any of my fellow countrymen voting No, that is their democratic right, i am embarrassed however by this campaign of sheer bias in a so called democracy..

So one sided and you have to wonder what state they would be in without it.

[The Harp Awakes]

Another BBC news at ten, another complete brainwashing attempt, just getting so ridiculous.. How are the high percentage of scots voting Yes ever meant to trust the Government, the media, or the license fee supported BBC if it is a no vote

Im not embarrassed of any of my fellow countrymen voting No, that is their democratic right, i am embarrassed however by this campaign of sheer bias in a so called democracy..

So one sided and you have to wonder what state they would be in without it.

Yep, astoundingly biased coverage on the BBC 10 o clock news. They are not even trying to cover it up now. That Nick Robinson fella is a joke. He was openly mocking Alex Salmond's position at the end of his piece. Quite outrageous really.

[Leith Green]

Yep, astoundingly biased coverage on the BBC 10 o clock news. They are not even trying to cover it up now. That Nick Robinson fella is a joke. He was openly mocking Alex Salmond's position at the end of his piece. Quite outrageous really.

And didn't mention Salmonds response which lasted 7 minutes. Robinson said he didnt answer.. How do we trust these people after next Thursdays vote is cast?? This is democracy though, right?

[Stranraer]

And didn't mention Salmonds response which lasted 7 minutes. Robinson said he didnt answer.. How do we trust these people after next Thursdays vote is cast?? This is democracy though, right?

That really irritated me, the FM's response is on YouTube for everyone to see.

[stoneyburn hibs]

That really irritated me, the FM's response is on YouTube for everyone to see.

And Robinson got ripped a new one.

[snooky]

And didn't mention Salmonds response which lasted 7 minutes. Robinson said he didnt answer.. How do we trust these people after next Thursdays vote is cast?? This is democracy though, right?

Win or lose, after the 18th I'm getting shot of my TV and getting a refund on the licence.
I'm not giving one more penny to the coven of Tory lackeys that is the BBC.

[lord bunberry]

My understanding is that Dundee will return a convincing yes.

Dundee is known as yes city, it will be a major shock if they don't return a convincing yes vote

[Leith Green]

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...nds-wealth-go/

Have a wee read of this, see how much of this we hear on the BBC, this is exactly current affairs, not what may or may happen..

This is our chance to stand up and address these issues

[Stranraer]

And Robinson got ripped a new one.

Exactly right, it wasn't titled "Ultimate Smackdown" for nothing! God Salmond is good.

[JimBHibees]

Exactly right, it wasn't titled "Ultimate Smackdown" for nothing! God Salmond is good.

Interesting to read his background.

Ex-Tory and was accused of bias in the build up to the last election ironically in many ways by Alastair Campbell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Robinson

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting to read his background.

Ex-Tory and was accused of bias in the build up to the last election ironically in many ways by Alastair Campbell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Robinson

I mentioned on a Facebook thread yesterday that Campbell, who I follow on Twitter and who seethes about Salmond, was very quiet about all this yesterday. He obviously can't make up his mind who he hates more. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/12/scottish-referendum-too-close-to-call-says-icm-poll

ICM has it 40aye -42naw-17 dinnae ken.

87% absolutely certain to vote compared to 55% for Westminster elections is the stat that jumps out.

[JimBHibees]

I mentioned on a Facebook thread yesterday that Campbell, who I follow on Twitter and who seethes about Salmond, was very quiet about all this yesterday. He obviously can't make up his mind who he hates more. :greengrin

and Campbell appears to be a man who could hate for England. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

and Campbell appears to be a man who could hate for England. :greengrin

...whilst claiming to be a Scot.

[snooky]

Teenager wants to leave home
Parents say no
Big fight
Teenager leaves parents
Teenager makes out okay, albeit with a few hiccups along the way
Parents finally acknowledge that teenager is an adult
Happy families again

[Hibrandenburg]

Teenager wants to leave home
Parents say no
Big fight
Teenager leaves parents
Teenager makes out okay, albeit with a few hiccups along the way
Parents finally acknowledge that teenager is an adult
Happy families again

Teenager wants to leave home.
Parents say no
Big fight
Teenager leaves home but takes the family jewelry with him
Teenager floggs family jewelry and starts own business and secures his financial security
Parents fall into financial difficulty and ask teenager for help
Teenager tells parents to **** off

[snooky]

Teenager wants to leave home.
Parents say no
Big fight
Teenager leaves home but takes the family jewelry with him
Teenager floggs family jewelry and starts own business and secures his financial security
Parents fall into financial difficulty and ask teenager for help
Teenager tells parents to **** off

Naughty you and naughty teenager! :tsk tsk:


:greengrin

[Leith Green]

The whole divorce thing takes me back to galloways comments last night where he compared independence as a divorce, so Mr Galloway if we are playing the part of the divorcee who has finally had enough and wants to go it alone, then you and your comrades are playing the part of the one who will lie, spin, and do everything in your power to belittle and cause as much insecurity as possible.

Its time to face facts we don't need you anymore, you are holding us back and causing a car crash for everybody looking in, in trying to belittle us and your obvious attempts at making is feel insecure, you are actually galvanising us and making us stronger, so thank you

[MyJo]

The whole divorce thing takes me back to galloways comments last night where he compared independence as a divorce, so Mr Galloway if we are playing the part of the divorcee who has finally had enough and wants to go it alone, then you and your comrades are playing the part of the one who will lie, spin, and do everything in your power to belittle and cause as much insecurity as possible.

Its time to face facts we don't need you anymore, you are holding us back and causing a car crash for everybody looking in, in trying to belittle us and your obvious attempts at making is feel insecure, you are actually galvanising us and making us stronger, so thank you

The independence referendum was also referred to as a divorce on "this week" last night when the point was raised that if we choose to go indepedent we will still be part of the UK at the time of the next general election and eligible to vote. Thats a nice wee mess for everyone on the better together side to have to sort out if we do get a yes vote next week.

[Leith Green]

The independence referendum was also referred to as a divorce on "this week" last night when the point was raised that if we choose to go indepedent we will still be part of the UK at the time of the next general election and eligible to vote. Thats a nice wee mess for everyone on the better together side to have to sort out if we do get a yes vote next week.

Funny thing is, if its Yes then I will gladly await my first vote for an independent Scotland and have totally no interest in theirs they can have their general election and decide whats best for them.

But lets not kid ourselves on that we would make much difference to the outcome of theirs anyway..

[GreenLake]

Citizens resident outside of Scotland can't vote, but we can donate to either campaign. I couple of hundred quid might buy a few votes to replace the one we are not allowed.:wink:

[snooky]

The whole divorce thing takes me back to galloways comments last night where he compared independence as a divorce, so Mr Galloway if we are playing the part of the divorcee who has finally had enough and wants to go it alone, then you and your comrades are playing the part of the one who will lie, spin, and do everything in your power to belittle and cause as much insecurity as possible.

Its time to face facts we don't need you anymore, you are holding us back and causing a car crash for everybody looking in, in trying to belittle us and your obvious attempts at making is feel insecure, you are actually galvanising us and making us stronger, so thank you

Cue "I Will Survive" :singing:

[Leith Green]

Lol

[Albion Hibs]

The whole divorce thing takes me back to galloways comments last night where he compared independence as a divorce, so Mr Galloway if we are playing the part of the divorcee who has finally had enough and wants to go it alone, then you and your comrades are playing the part of the one who will lie, spin, and do everything in your power to belittle and cause as much insecurity as possible.

Its time to face facts we don't need you anymore, you are holding us back and causing a car crash for everybody looking in, in trying to belittle us and your obvious attempts at making is feel insecure, you are actually galvanising us and making us stronger, so thank you

We don't need them anymore...funny the world seems to be disagreeing...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11093574/Scotland-heading-for-a-Great-Depression-after-a-Yes-vote.html

some people will vote yes regardless if they knew the world was going to end a s a result of it...judging by some comments it may very well not be far off that!

[Future17]

Funny thing is, if its Yes then I will gladly await my first vote for an independent Scotland and have totally no interest in theirs they can have their general election and decide whats best for them.

But lets not kid ourselves on that we would make much difference to the outcome of theirs anyway..

I agree in theory, but the UK Government/Parliament will have to sign off on whatever is agreed at the negotiating table. I think we should maintain an interest for as long as we have an interest!

I suppose there is a question over the standard of candidate who would put themselves forward for, potentially, an 8 month term!

[JimBHibees]

We don't need them anymore...funny the world seems to be disagreeing...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11093574/Scotland-heading-for-a-Great-Depression-after-a-Yes-vote.html

some people will vote yes regardless if they knew the world was going to end a s a result of it...judging by some comments it may very well not be far off that!

The way some Bt activists are going you would actually think exactly that was going to happen. There is no doubt Scotland can be a viable independent country even Dave agrees. I struggle to understand why no voters are thinking that it wouldn't be a good idea to be able to make our own decisions.

[bawheid]

Better Together has basically been reduced to telling Scots that they're incapable of governing themselves. That's what it's now boiled down to.

You can't do this and you won't do that and if you do this or that the sky will fall.

Fair enough, but I don't believe them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

We don't need them anymore...funny the world seems to be disagreeing...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11093574/Scotland-heading-for-a-Great-Depression-after-a-Yes-vote.html

some people will vote yes regardless if they knew the world was going to end a s a result of it...judging by some comments it may very well not be far off that!

You need to get out more.

[MyJo]

You need to get out more.

:faf: brilliant

[Sylar]

Not sure if this has already been posted but these words from Michael Gove made me feel positive incensed. The man should be removed from office ASAP - a heinous ****bag of a man who does not represent anything most people stand for!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/yes-camp-promise-weekend-of-intensity-as-orange-order-march-in-edinburgh.1410588366

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not sure if this has already been posted but these words from Michael Gove made me feel positive incensed. The man should be removed from office ASAP - a heinous ****bag of a man who does not represent anything most people stand for!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/yes-camp-promise-weekend-of-intensity-as-orange-order-march-in-edinburgh.1410588366

Sadly, I fear there is worse to come.

[hibsbollah]

Survation has it 54-46 No today. Back to an 8 point lead.

[Leith Green]

Survation has it 54-46 No today. Back to an 8 point lead.

Strange one that, given yesterdays poll...

[jonty]

Market pressure forming to force Osborne to confirm a currency union because it would be bad for England not to:
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/market-pressure-builds-on-george-osborne-to-confirm-currency-union/

Instead of coming up with their own plan on how they would deal with a currency fall out, they've been scaremongering. Looks like it may bite them in the arse.

[CropleyWasGod]

Strange one that, given yesterdays poll...
It's not really. The margin of error is normally 4% on these things. In other words, add or subtract 4 to or from the numbers to get the range.

Conclusion is, for me, that it's still too close to call.

Edit....just read that this poll was commissioned by BT. Make of that what you will.

[Leith Green]

Apparently the survation poll showing an 8 point lead was carried out for Better Together. Make of that what you will..

We will need to wait and see what the opinium/observer poll suggests later tonight

[Leith Green]

It's not really. The margin of error is normally 4% on these things. In other words, add or subtract 4 to or from the numbers to get the range.

Conclusion is, for me, that it's still too close to call.

Edit....just read that this poll was commissioned by BT. Make of that what you willm

Lol, beat me to it

[Leith Green]

It's not really. The margin of error is normally 4% on these things. In other words, add or subtract 4 to or from the numbers to get the range.

Conclusion is, for me, that it's still too close to call.

Edit....just read that this poll was commissioned by BT. Make of that what you willm

Do we think Better Together are playing with the numbers?

[Leith Green]

It's not really. The margin of error is normally 4% on these things. In other words, add or subtract 4 to or from the numbers to get the range.

Conclusion is, for me, that it's still too close to call.

Edit....just read that this poll was commissioned by BT. Make of that what you willm

Add or subtract 4 percent from one of the figures, giving an 8 swing? Or is it 4 overall?

[CropleyWasGod]

Add or subtract 4 percent from one of the figures, giving an 8 swing? Or is it 4 overall?
It is normally "plus or minus 4". So a 50:50 could be 54:46 . So yeah, could potentially be 8.

[Leith Green]

It is normally "plus or minus 4". So a 50:50 could be 54:46 . So yeah, could potentially be 8.

Gotta wonder if they have leaned on Survation in the same way they did the supermarkets? To be honest the referendum polls are supposedly the trickiest ones to call, think it comes down voting history etc, obviously there are none in this case.. One thing is for certain , its gonna be close and Yes need to make sure they vote

[bawheid]

I honestly don't think we can place too much weight on the polling at this stage.

Going by what we're seeing on the ground and what I see from speaking to friends, family and colleagues I can only see a Yes win.

It'll be won and lost by the 25% of the electorate that don't normally vote but will this time. They're more likely to be energised by the Yes campaign IMO.

[Leith Green]

I honestly don't think we can place too much weight on the polling at this stage.

Going by what we're seeing on the ground and what I see from speaking to friends, family and colleagues I can only see a Yes win.

It'll be won and lost by the 25% of the electorate that don't normally vote but will this time. They're more likely to be energised by the Yes campaign IMO.


Could be right, another thing to consider is that 19 per cent have already cast their votes

[Sir David Gray]

I think there will be a "no" vote next month although I think it will be a lot closer than if it had been held a year ago.

I think it will be a 60-40 split or closer.


I reckon it'll be much closer than that. I'd rather it was a landslide either way personally so there are fewer comebacks afterwards.

I think you might be right here!

Still think the "no" vote will win on Thursday but I reckon it will maybe be around a 54-46 split, something like that.

[The Baldmans Comb]

ICM have a poll out showing 54% Yes and 46% No. There really seems to have felt like a Yes momentum over the weekend with the fantastic scare stories now being openly ridiculed.

The polling companies can't be enjoying this.

[jonty]

I see the telecoms companies are now the latest cartel to come out and claim prices could increase and that broadband rollout would be impacted.

Scaremongers.

[Judas Iscariot]

Already been confirmed that changes to internet pricing etc would be almost impossible to implement due to IP addresses being indistinguishable..

[Sylar]

One of the newspapers running with the sacrifice of Scottish soldiers, and how a 'Yes' vote disrespects that :rolleyes:

It's utterly disgusting the angle some of the press are trying to use.

[Mon Dieu4]

Andrew Marr show this morning, when running through the headlines just showed the pro union ones, funnily enough neglected the Heralds story that the Treasury broke the rules over RBS:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Andrew Marr show this morning, when running through the headlines just showed the pro union ones, funnily enough neglected the Heralds story that the Treasury broke the rules over RBS:rolleyes:

I have been genuinely undecided for weeks and weeks but the propaganda is gradually turning me towards the Yes side. It's not particularly logical but there you go.

[Mon Dieu4]

I have been genuinely undecided for weeks and weeks but the propaganda is gradually turning me towards the Yes side. It's not particularly logical but there you go.

I know a few people in the same boat as you, if we do get a Yes vote it will be some story in the face of fear, scaremongering and down right bias, sticking it to the man is a valid reason to vote yes:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I have been genuinely undecided for weeks and weeks but the propaganda is gradually turning me towards the Yes side. It's not particularly logical but there you go.
People vote for so many different reasons. Sometimes it's as simple as "I don't like that guy. I'll vote for the other one"

If you feel that you don't trust one side, it's valid to vote against it.

[hibsbollah]

People vote for so many different reasons. Sometimes it's as simple as "I don't like that guy. I'll vote for the other one"

If you feel that you don't trust one side, it's valid to vote against it.

Ive always been politically engaged, I consider myself well informed, but all the reasoning in the world is now coming down to an atavistic desire to vote AGAINST whoever I perceive to be the establishment :dunno: I think I just get more rebellious as I get older.

[danhibees1875]

I think I've also landed in the undecided camp at the end.
Has there been a final definite answer regarding the jobs of standard life, Lloyds,rbs?

What was the outcome of the supermarkets? Has their official statement been that there would be a price increase?

:confused:

[DaveF]

I think I've also landed in the undecided camp at the end.
Has there been a final definite answer regarding the jobs of standard life, Lloyds,rbs?

What was the outcome of the supermarkets? Has their official statement been that there would be a price increase?

:confused:

There will be no job losses as a result of RBS and Lloyds moving registered offices. Note this is registered office - Not a shifting of the Gogar building to England. It's a legal procedure and one that they feel they would have to take.

Standard life have said they will consider moving some Operations. They also said they were leaving Scotland in 1999 should we vote for a Scottish Parliament, so make of that what you will.

Some supermarkets (ASDA, John Lewis) have said they feel prices will go up. Some (Tesco, Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl) have said nothing. Bottom line is if Asda put prices up and Tesco don't where will the shoppers go.....

Its your vote but please do look beneath the headlines before you make your mind up. An iS won't be milk and honey - but it won't be the great depression either.

[CapitalGreen]

I think I've also landed in the undecided camp at the end.
Has there been a final definite answer regarding the jobs of standard life, Lloyds,rbs?

What was the outcome of the supermarkets? Has their official statement been that there would be a price increase?

:confused:

You won't get a definitive answer but think about it logically. Most finance jobs in Scotland are in unregulated roles, which means they can be performed in any country in the world. Then also consider the costs of moving a role (conservative estimates*):

Redundancy package: £7,500 (3 mo salary based on £30k p/a)
Cost of hiring new staff: £2,000 (agency fees, candidate screening, disclosure, external training/testing, GALLUP if at Standard Life)
Physically moving equipment: £250 (cost to my company per person for moving within the same office, would be much more to move down to England)
London/England wages: London pays around 20% higher than Scotland for entry level roles, and even greater diff in senior positions.
London property costs: multiple times the cost of Edinburgh property.

Around £10k, for one person!

Add on to that the prospect of 3% lower corp tax for Scottish based businesses. Where is the economic reasoning for moving unregulated roles south.

EDIT - Also, how do you find people to replace the experience of those who have worked at RBS or SL for 10, 15, 20 years plus. Some of whom work on niche business lines or products.

* happy to be challenged on any of the estimates/figures used

[The Baldmans Comb]

I think I've also landed in the undecided camp at the end.
Has there been a final definite answer regarding the jobs of standard life, Lloyds,rbs?

What was the outcome of the supermarkets? Has their official statement been that there would be a price increase?

:confused:

As someone who works in the head office of an international bank we have absolutely no worries whatsoever about job losses.

All that is happening is that a brass plaque is moving in order that the incorporation will be in London not Edinburgh.Any job losses will be absolutely minimal.

I didn't quite keep up with the supermarket scare story but in such a highly competitive market of Asda,Tesco,Lidl, Aldi,Sainsbury and Morrisons it doesn't make sense that prices rise.

[jonty]

I think I've also landed in the undecided camp at the end.
Has there been a final definite answer regarding the jobs of standard life, Lloyds,rbs?

What was the outcome of the supermarkets? Has their official statement been that there would be a price increase?

:confused:

Lloyds have had their HQ in London for some years.
RBS have issued a memo to staff stating that it was a technical exercise to move the registered office. no roles or jobs would be moving.

Supermarkets have stated that prices may go up or down. Tesco released a statement denying that there would be the 16% increase that the BT campaign announced.

[DaveF]

If you are undecided, then this should do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

[hibsbollah]

The Guardian is full of Yes opinion pieces today.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/13/alex-salmond-solitary-man-vision

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/kevin-mckenna-why-i-am-voting-yes-for-scottish-independence

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/13/voting-yes-scottish-independence-galloway

[Sylar]

If you are undecided, then this should do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

:greengrin - "That's not a tattoo, that's a birthmark" - brilliant!

[NAE NOOKIE]

If you are undecided, then this should do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

:faf:

[southsider]

I have been genuinely undecided for weeks and weeks but the propaganda is gradually turning me towards the Yes side. It's not particularly logical but there you go.
I was the same until i saw the O/O banner about them and KKK.

[Leith Green]

A lot of people still seem to be undecided, not being funny but if you haven't gone away and looked into it enough to make a decision by now, then chances are you never will. I just hope these people don't bother voting!

[Beefster]

A lot of people still seem to be undecided, not being funny but if you haven't gone away and looked into it enough to make a decision by now, then chances are you never will. I just hope these people don't bother voting!

Hibsbollah has said he's undecided. I can almost guarantee that he's put more effort into getting answers than either you or I. Undecided doesn't mean that they haven't "looked into it". It means that they're not yet ready to make up their mind on what is best for Scotland.

Way to patronise the **** out of them though.

[Leith Green]

No, he said he was undecided for weeks but is now a yes. The point I was making was, rather than coming to Thursday and not having a clue what to vote, the best bet for both sides is if you don't vote at all, if you are genuinely undecided.

[Beefster]

No, he said he was undecided for weeks but is now a yes. The point I was making was, rather than coming to Thursday and not having a clue what to vote, the best bet for both sides is if you don't vote at all, if you are genuinely undecided.

The best bet for the country is that everyone entitled to vote votes.

[southsider]

This is like a young person leaving home for the first time. You don't leave home because you hate your parents. You leave home because you want to make your own way in life. Make your own mistakes and your own successes. We are big boys and girls and we need to cut out ma's apron strings.

[Sergey]

The best bet for the country is that everyone entitled to vote votes.

I agree with that, Beefster.

In fact, the last time I voted I spoiled my ballot paper - but at least I voted.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The best bet for the country is that everyone entitled to vote votes.

I agree ............ actually I'm curious to see if for the first time in all of the elections / referendums I have voted in since I was 19 whether I'll be required to wait in a queue .......... now that would be a novelty. I'm usually a post 8pm voter and have to poke the polling station folk with a stick to wake them up :greengrin

[#FromTheCapital]

The best bet for the country is that everyone entitled to vote votes.

:agree:
I know a couple of people who aren't going to bother voting because they can't be arsed listening to the debate and aren't fussed either way. The attitude seems to be that their vote doesn't matter anyway. That's completely their choice although I personally think it's wrong. In a country with as small a population as Scotland I think it's important that people vote, particularly because of how close things appear to be.
In fairness the vast majority of people will be voting.

[Leith Green]

The best bet for the country is that everyone entitled to vote votes.

Even if you don't know what to vote? That just doesnt make sense.

[NAE NOOKIE]

:agree:
I know a couple of people who aren't going to bother voting because they can't be arsed listening to the debate and aren't fussed either way. The attitude seems to be that their vote doesn't matter anyway. That's completely their choice although I personally think it's wrong. In a country with as small a population as Scotland I think it's important that people vote, particularly because of how close things appear to be.
In fairness the vast majority of people will be voting.

Yup ...... pig ignorance is an inalienable human right. Nae offence tae the Pig which is the greatest animal on the face of the earth.

[Leith Green]

I just don't see the point in an undecided voter voting. Say they vote Yes for arguments sake, then a month down the line realise that they should have Voted No, or visa versa..

Surely if you genuinely don't know, then your best not voting, as you could actually be voting completely wrongly..

[Peevemor]

I just don't see the point in an undecided voter voting. Say they vote Yes for arguments sake, then a month down the line realise that they should have Voted No, or visa versa..

Surely if you genuinely don't know, then your best not voting, as you could actually be voting completely wrongly..

Then spoil the paper. At least we'd know the difference between the genuine undecideds and those that can't be bothered.

In France they are introducing a "none of the above" option to their ballot papers. I don't understand why it didn't happen sooner.

[Sergey]

Then spoil the paper. At least we'd know the difference between the genuine undecideds and those that can't be bothered.

In France they are introducing a "none of the above" option to their ballot papers. I don't understand why it didn't happen sooner.

I live in a Tory constituency that has one of the largest majorities in the country. My MP was claiming 2nd home allowance even though she lived 8 miles from the House of Commons. I gave her no amount of abuse when she came door-stepping :greengrin.

I couldn't under any circumstances vote for Labour (it would have been a wasted vote anyway), the Green candidate was a bit of a tree-huger, there was some Christian fundamentalist who stood as an independent and another couple of self-publicity freaks. I would have voted UKIP but they didn't put forward a candidate.

I simply put one huge cross across the ballot paper.

[Leith Green]

Then spoil the paper. At least we'd know the difference between the genuine undecideds and those that can't be bothered.

In France they are introducing a "none of the above" option to their ballot papers. I don't understand why it didn't happen sooner.


And i dont disagree with that. My point was that there is no point in voting for one of two options on the table if you are unsure of them both. Its seems to be something I hear fron BT campaign team, if your unsure then vote No, surely if you are unsure then you vote neither.

I hope that makes sense

[Peevemor]

And i dont disagree with that. My point was that there is no point in voting for one of two options on the table if you are unsure of them both. Its seems to be something I hear fron BT campaign team, if your unsure then vote No, surely if you are unsure then you vote neither.

I hope that makes sense

Of course it does. :aok:

[Beefster]

I agree with that, Beefster.

In fact, the last time I voted I spoiled my ballot paper - but at least I voted.

Totally agree. This referendum is the biggest thing politically that most of us will ever participate in. If it really is as close as the polls show, a high turnout should give an element of comfort, even there won't be a comprehensive result. If it's a yes (or no, for that matter), I'll feel much better knowing that the vast majority of Scotland took part in the result.

[Leith Green]

Totally agree. This referendum is the biggest thing politically that most of us will ever participate in. If it really is as close as the polls show, a high turnout should give an element of comfort, even there won't be a comprehensive result. If it's a yes (or no, for that matter), I'll feel much better knowing that the vast majority of Scotland took part in the result.


I think you've misunderstood the original point I was making. I totally agree with everyone taking part.

[Mibbes Aye]

This is like a young person leaving home for the first time. You don't leave home because you hate your parents. You leave home because you want to make your own way in life. Make your own mistakes and your own successes. We are big boys and girls and we need to cut out ma's apron strings.

I've noticed this metaphor being used a lot by the Yes camp - the teenager leaving home, making their own decisions etc etc.

I think it's actually demeaning to Scotland - we're not a child, not a teenager. We were a sovereign nation who entered into an act of union with another sovereign nation to form a new, sovereign nation. The correct metaphor would be something closer to a business merger I guess.

When you look at the language used it tells an interesting story about power.

On the Yes side there's the aspirational pitch about Scotland being the 'teenager' leaving home - it's a nice story, albeit inaccurate, but it portrays us as powerless - it says we are leaving home in order to make decisions for the first time.

If you look at another Yes pitch, we have a chance to free ourselves from the subjugation of a supposed Westminster elite, who make decisions that disadvantage us. In this narrative we are victims, again powerless.

And if you look at yet another Yes pitch, we are fed a lot of lies, manipulated by the media who we are told have an agenda against separation. In this narrative, we are puppets, easily swayed by the press. again, pretty powerless.

It feels like the Yes approach is pretty much based on convincing us we are powerless, we lack agency or control over our lives and our decision-making.

Why take that approach? What does it say about their view of us, the Scottish electorate?

[Peevemor]

I've noticed this metaphor being used a lot by the Yes camp - the teenager leaving home, making their own decisions etc etc.

I think it's actually demeaning to Scotland - we're not a child, not a teenager. We were a sovereign nation who entered into an act of union with another sovereign nation to form a new, sovereign nation. The correct metaphor would be something closer to a business merger I guess.

When you look at the language used it tells an interesting story about power.

On the Yes side there's the aspirational pitch about Scotland being the 'teenager' leaving home - it's a nice story, albeit inaccurate, but it portrays us as powerless - it says we are leaving home in order to make decisions for the first time.

If you look at another Yes pitch, we have a chance to free ourselves from the subjugation of a supposed Westminster elite, who make decisions that disadvantage us. In this narrative we are victims, again powerless.

And if you look at yet another Yes pitch, we are fed a lot of lies, manipulated by the media who we are told have an agenda against separation. In this narrative, we are puppets, easily swayed by the press. again, pretty powerless.

It feels like the Yes approach is pretty much based on convincing us we are powerless, we lack agency or control over our lives and our decision-making.

Why take that approach? What does it say about their view of us, the Scottish electorate?

That under the current setup we are powerless, we lack control over our lives and our decision making? :dunno: :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

That under the current setup we are powerless, we lack control over our lives and our decision making? :dunno: :wink:

That's patently not true as this coming Thursday demonstrates.......

Many on the Yes side like to claim the No camp pushes a negative message. But the gist of the Yes narrative seems to be trying to convince us we are weak, powerless, victims. That's not very positive is it?

[Leith Green]

That's patently not true as this coming Thursday demonstrates.......

Many on the Yes side like to claim the No camp pushes a negative message. But the gist of the Yes narrative seems to be trying to convince us we are weak, powerless, victims. That's not very positive is it?


Its negative about where we are currently as part of uk ,the positivity is in what may lie ahead for us if we gain independence on Thursday

[southsider]

Its negative about where we are currently as part of uk ,the positivity is in what may lie ahead for us if we gain independence on Thursday
Nothing lasts forever (not even cold November rain).

[Peevemor]

That's patently not true as this coming Thursday demonstrates.......

Many on the Yes side like to claim the No camp pushes a negative message. But the gist of the Yes narrative seems to be trying to convince us we are weak, powerless, victims. That's not very positive is it?

The message is that now is Scotland's chance to change all that and take greater control over it's own destiny.

For me that's 100% positive.

[Moulin Yarns]

The message is that now is Scotland's chance to change all that and take greater control over it's own destiny.

For me that's 100% positive.

My view entirely.

[danhibees1875]

No, he said he was undecided for weeks but is now a yes. The point I was making was, rather than coming to Thursday and not having a clue what to vote, the best bet for both sides is if you don't vote at all, if you are genuinely undecided.

I disagree.

There is a reason that the nation is split. It's all too easy to not wish to commit to either side if you spend time reading both arguments.

[Leith Green]

I disagree.

There is a reason that the nation is split. It's all too easy to not wish to commit to either side if you spend time reading both arguments.

So if ur undecided when you are in the polling station, which option do you choose?

[Peevemor]

So if ur undecided when you are in the polling station, which option do you choose?

Yes. :greengrin:

[CropleyWasGod]

So if ur undecided when you are in the polling station, which option do you choose?

Spoil.

It's a democratic decision, and you're saying that you don't like the choices on offer, or can't choose.

[Mibbes Aye]

The message is that now is Scotland's chance to change all that and take greater control over it's own destiny.

For me that's 100% positive.

That doesn't add up either though.

"Scotland taking control over its own destiny" assumes that Scotland is some homogeneous identity. It's not.

Depending on the vagaries of our political system, a certain group of people will take greater control over Scotland's destiny. That could be to make wearing tam o'shanters compulsory, it could be to make every firstborn male child be named Eck :greengrin.

Getting closer to reality, it could be cutting corporation tax and maintaining the council tax freeze - genuine policies which some will agree with and some won't.

Regardless, it wouldn't be Scotland shaping its own destiny, it would be a small number of people implementing policies having been given votes by a certain segment of the population. That's very different from 'Scotland shaping its own destiny', it's pretty much what we have just now.

Which reminds me of Billy Connolly's comment about having more in common with a welder from Liverpool than a farmer from the Highlands.

[danhibees1875]

So if ur undecided when you are in the polling station, which option do you choose?

I'll let you know on Thursday :wink:

Fwiw, I fully intend to come to a decision soon :greengrin

[Peevemor]

That doesn't add up either though.

"Scotland taking control over its own destiny" assumes that Scotland is some homogeneous identity. It's not.

Depending on the vagaries of our political system, a certain group of people will take greater control over Scotland's destiny. That could be to make wearing tam o'shanters compulsory, it could be to make every firstborn male child be named Eck :greengrin.

Getting closer to reality, it could be cutting corporation tax and maintaining the council tax freeze - genuine policies which some will agree with and some won't.

Regardless, it wouldn't be Scotland shaping its own destiny, it would be a small number of people implementing policies having been given votes by a certain segment of the population. That's very different from 'Scotland shaping its own destiny', it's pretty much what we have just now.

Which reminds me of Billy Connolly's comment about having more in common with a welder from Liverpool than a farmer from the Highlands.

If Scotland was already independent, would it have a Tory government?

[Leith Green]

Spoil.

It's a democratic decision, and you're saying that you don't like the choices on offer, or can't choose.

And i would totally agree with someone doing that, i was meaning that it'd be madness to go one way or another if you genuinely don't know

[Mibbes Aye]

If Scotland was already independent, would it have a Tory government?

It doesn't have a Tory government today :wink:

I think some in the Yes camp don't get how democracy works - they describe independence as meaning more democracy because it's a means of reducing the likelihood of getting a party they don't want in power.

That's not democracy - democracy is surely that the people exercise choice. If their choice isn't something you are happy with then there's a responsibility on you to question why your arguments didn't carry the day and maybe consider what you need to do to refine and improve them. That's democracy, as opposed to walking away when you get something you don't like - it's a bit like not getting to be captain of the football team so you take yourself away and set up your own one-man team so you're guaranteed to be captain.

[MyJo]

That doesn't add up either though.

"Scotland taking control over its own destiny" assumes that Scotland is some homogeneous identity. It's not.

Depending on the vagaries of our political system, a certain group of people will take greater control over Scotland's destiny. That could be to make wearing tam o'shanters compulsory, it could be to make every firstborn male child be named Eck :greengrin.

Getting closer to reality, it could be cutting corporation tax and maintaining the council tax freeze - genuine policies which some will agree with and some won't.

Regardless, it wouldn't be Scotland shaping its own destiny, it would be a small number of people implementing policies having been given votes by a certain segment of the population. That's very different from 'Scotland shaping its own destiny', it's pretty much what we have just now.

Which reminds me of Billy Connolly's comment about having more in common with a welder from Liverpool than a farmer from the Highlands.

Scottish politicians, living and working in Scotland, voted into power by the Scottish people based on policies and systems of government designed on the needs and desires of the Scottish population.

If that is not us shaping our own destiny then I don't know what is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Scottish politicians, living and working in Scotland, voted into power by the Scottish people based on policies and systems of government designed on the needs and desires of the Scottish population.

If that is not us shaping our own destiny then I don't know what is.

Which the Scottish Government and Parliament already do?

[Jamesconnolly]

Hells bells mate ......... The press can play a big part in the outcome of any election, why do you think politicians work so hard at kissing their erse? Of the many papers in this country just about all of them are in the no camp and most of the biggest ones vociferously so, I mean have you read the Daily Mail or Daily Express lately?. If the press have had an impact on peoples voting intentions ( and history suggests it will have ) it sure as hell isn't for the Yes camp.

Getting the Sun on board was widely acknowledged as a major factor in Tony Blair winning the 1997 general election.

Totally agree mate it's disgusting how the bbc have not shown any of the mass rally's of the yes support.for example there is a video on Facebook from the bbc building in Glasgow showing thousands of yes supporters demonstrating against the bbc they are ALL singing 'Wheres your cameras BBC ' It actually sounds how the east stand used to.why are they hiding all this it's bloody so wrong.i still maintain if you vote no you have no right to call yourself scottish


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Peevemor]

It doesn't have a Tory government today :wink:

I think some in the Yes camp don't get how democracy works - they describe independence as meaning more democracy because it's a means of reducing the likelihood of getting a party they don't want in power.

That's not democracy - democracy is surely that the people exercise choice. If their choice isn't something you are happy with then there's a responsibility on you to question why your arguments didn't carry the day and maybe consider what you need to do to refine and improve them. That's democracy, as opposed to walking away when you get something you don't like - it's a bit like not getting to be captain of the football team so you take yourself away and set up your own one-man team so you're guaranteed to be captain.

OK, the Scottish electorate voting for a Scottish government on the basis of their manifesto on such things as the NHS, Trident, membership of the EU, etc.

On each of these points, it appears that the consensus of opinion in Scotland isn't the same as those in power in London. That's fine by you?

[Jack]

Which the Scottish Government and Parliament already do?

In a wee way ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Which the Scottish Government and Parliament already do?

Part of the issue, for me, is that the MSP's are often voted in and out based on what's happening in Westminster. That's unfair, on them and on us.

[southsider]

Scottish politicians, living and working in Scotland, voted into power by the Scottish people based on policies and systems of government designed on the needs and desires of the Scottish population.

If that is not us shaping our own destiny then I don't know what is.
Westminster controls all the real stuff. We have a toy-town "Parliament" at Holyrood. Posh boy Dave and faceless Clegg hold the real power. The establishment are now lying through (as they have always done) their back teeth. They only agreed to this vote because they (NO) thought they would win easy(put the rebellious Scots back in their place), but now they are really scared.

[steakbake]

Westminster controls all the real stuff. We have a toy-town "Parliament" at Holyrood. Posh boy Dave and faceless Clegg hold the real power. The establishment are now lying through (as they have always done) their back teeth. They only agreed to this vote because they (NO) thought they would win easy(put the rebellious Scots back in their place), but now they are really scared.

Agreed. There was a BT rally at inverleith today. Had the feint whiff of one of those pro-hunting rallies of a few years ago.

[Mibbes Aye]

OK, the Scottish electorate voting for a Scottish government on the basis of their manifesto on such things as the NHS, Trident, membership of the EU, etc.

On each of these points, it appears that the consensus of opinion in Scotland isn't the same as those in power in London. That's fine by you?

I'm not sure how that isn't answered by my previous post :confused:

In a democracy, someone gets elected and enacts their policies. If you are in disagreement you hold them to account and try and work out how you get elected next time round.

Or you take the huff and say you don't want to play any more.

But Scotland's not a five year-old child. It's five million people who are part of a bigger thing. And like it or not, some of those five million people are Tories and some want Trident and some want an EU referendum. And they share that with with millions of other people in the UK. You might not like that, I might not like that, but that's what part of being a democracy is about.

We are voluntarily part of the UK as things stand, so arguing that Scotland is somehow not getting its democratic right doesn't add up. You may as well poll ginger-haired people, find that more than 50% don't think we should have a BBC Licence fee and then say they are being denied democracy because we do have one.

[Mibbes Aye]

Part of the issue, for me, is that the MSP's are often voted in and out based on what's happening in Westminster. That's unfair, on them and on us.

That probably applies all the way through to local government elections too.

As a counter, I seem to recall a lot of commentary a couple of years back suggesting voters who would go Labour for Westminster were going SNP for Holyrood. Can't recall if that was backed up by any decent evidence or not.

[Peevemor]

I'm not sure how that isn't answered by my previous post :confused:

In a democracy, someone gets elected and enacts their policies. If you are in disagreement you hold them to account and try and work out how you get elected next time round.

Or you take the huff and say you don't want to play any more.

But Scotland's not a five year-old child. It's five million people who are part of a bigger thing. And like it or not, some of those five million people are Tories and some want Trident and some want an EU referendum. And they share that with with millions of other people in the UK. You might not like that, I might not like that, but that's what part of being a democracy is about.

We are voluntarily part of the UK as things stand, so arguing that Scotland is somehow not getting its democratic right doesn't add up. You may as well poll ginger-haired people, find that more than 50% don't think we should have a BBC Licence fee and then say they are being denied democracy because we do have one.

How can you say that were voluntarily part of the UK? Nobody alive made that choice. If there is a no result then fair enough. This is the first time there has been a public referendum on the issue.

I don't believe that you honestly think that a iScottish government won't represent the people more fairly than the status quo.

As for gingies - I wouldn't give them a vote anyway. :greengrin :

[Mibbes Aye]

Westminster controls all the real stuff. We have a toy-town "Parliament" at Holyrood. Posh boy Dave and faceless Clegg hold the real power. The establishment are now lying through (as they have always done) their back teeth. They only agreed to this vote because they (NO) thought they would win easy(put the rebellious Scots back in their place), but now they are really scared.

I don't know if you have family.

The 'real stuff' for me is stuff like the classroom sizes for my children. The quality of the school and the quantity and quality of pre-school provision The health care and social care that my parents need, or may need to access. It's whether my street and my neighbourhood are safe and clean. It's the roads that I travel up and down every day to work.

That's the 'real stuff'. And that's all controlled in Edinburgh or in my local authority or NHS Board headquarters.

[Peevemor]

I don't know if you have family.

The 'real stuff' for me is stuff like the classroom sizes for my children. The quality of the school and the quantity and quality of pre-school provision The health care and social care that my parents need, or may need to access. It's whether my street and my neighbourhood are safe and clean. It's the roads that I travel up and down every day to work.

That's the 'real stuff'. And that's all controlled in Edinburgh or in my local authority or NHS Board headquarters.

With budgets and policy ultimately being decided where?

[CapitalGreen]

I don't know if you have family.

The 'real stuff' for me is stuff like the classroom sizes for my children. The quality of the school and the quantity and quality of pre-school provision The health care and social care that my parents need, or may need to access. It's whether my street and my neighbourhood are safe and clean. It's the roads that I travel up and down every day to work.

That's the 'real stuff'. And that's all controlled in Edinburgh or in my local authority or NHS Board headquarters.

Policy control maybe, but not full economic control.

[Peevemor]

Policy control maybe, but not full economic control.

And policies can only be based on the budget available.

[Mibbes Aye]

How can you say that were voluntarily part of the UK? Nobody alive made that choice. If there is a no result then fair enough. This is the first time there has been a public referendum on the issue.

I don't believe that you honestly think that a iScottish government won't represent the people more fairly than the status quo.

As for gingies - I wouldn't give them a vote anyway. :greengrin :

:greengrin

Re the bit about 'voluntarily', I mean that we are not compelled - Thursday shows that. I know Salmond has talked about this being once in a generation if it's a 'No' but as I've posted before I think there will be demand for another vote should the polls ever show an even slightly-sustained majority for 'Yes'. I can sort of understand that. Societally, we have shifted and instant gratification is pretty much seen as a right nowadays :greengrin

In answer to your middle point, I'm not convinced. I'm not going to drag out the council tax freeze again (oops, looks like I have :greengrin), but the party that argues loudest for independence as a route to reducing inequality has, when given power, made a totem out of a regressive policy and pledged to introduce further policy out of the 'trickledown economics' playbook.

We can say that UK government gave us the bedroom tax but then we also have to acknowledge it was a UK government that introduced the minimum wage and the like.

I guess it doesn't matter whether the seat of power is in Edinburgh or London, or even Stonybridge........it's about making and winning the arguments about what's right and what's progressive. I don't believe any particular tier of government has the monopoly on that.

[Judas Iscariot]

So if ur undecided when you are in the polling station, which option do you choose?

Yes

[Mibbes Aye]

And policies can only be based on the budget available.

Correct. And as the IFS latest report shows, the Scottish Government has chosen to protect the Scottish health budget less than it's been protected in England. They've chosen to use that money elsewhere.

[Mibbes Aye]

Policy control maybe, but not full economic control.

We already have powers to vary income tax (which we don't use).

In the event of independence there's a lack of detail about our economic position but plan A appears to involve ceding control over interest rates and the like to a foreign bank.

So where does this full economic control come from?

[JimBHibees]

Correct. And as the IFS latest report shows, the Scottish Government has chosen to protect the Scottish health budget less than it's been protected in England. They've chosen to use that money elsewhere.

A budget which of course has reduced since 2008 due to austerity measures or did you assume they would be increased in Scotland when budgets have been cut elsewhere.

[jonty]

In a democracy, someone gets elected and enacts their policies. If you are in disagreement you hold them to account and try and work out how you get elected next time round.

Or you take the huff and say you don't want to play any more.


If you compare the voting between the general elections and Scottish parliament elections, you'll see that even though we try to make an impact at Westminster, we rarely do (twice in the last 60 years?)

UK General Election (Scottish votes_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Sc otland
Labour: 42%
SNP : 19.9%
Lib Dems: 18.9%
Tories: 16.7%

Scottish Elections
SNP: 44%
Labour: 26.3%
Tories: 12.4%
Lib Dems: 5.2%

To me that shows that although we try to make a difference in the UK, its like pissing in the wind. The changes in voting for the Scottish elections show that what's best for Westminster isn't what's best for Scotland (otherwise the Scottish elections would follow the same trend)

[southsider]

I don't know if you have family.

The 'real stuff' for me is stuff like the classroom sizes for my children. The quality of the school and the quantity and quality of pre-school provision The health care and social care that my parents need, or may need to access. It's whether my street and my neighbourhood are safe and clean. It's the roads that I travel up and down every day to work.

That's the 'real stuff'. And that's all controlled in Edinburgh or in my local authority or NHS Board headquarters.
We are given an "allowance" from London, like a child's pocket money. " If you spend all your money on sweets and comics (or in my case Hibs games) dinny come looking for more".

[jonty]

We already have powers to vary income tax (which we don't use).

In the event of independence there's a lack of detail about our economic position but plan A appears to involve ceding control over interest rates and the like to a foreign bank.

So where does this full economic control come from?

We don't change income tax as that would impact on block grant we get (it would be adjusted to negate any change). so its a pretty useless power to have.

[Mibbes Aye]

A budget which of course has reduced since 2008 due to austerity measures or did you assume they would be increased in Scotland when budgets have been cut elsewhere.

The health budget is going up in England is it not?

As for austerity, it doesn't matter whether you blame US mortgage lenders, Gordon Brown, (the lack of) worldwide regulation or whatever - public sector spending either had to reduce or we had to create more debt.

There were few people on here taking a Keynesian line in 2010 and I don't remember you being one, apologies if you were. The point is consensus was created across party affiliation that spending cuts were required.

[Stranraer]

It doesn't have a Tory government today :wink:

I think some in the Yes camp don't get how democracy works - they describe independence as meaning more democracy because it's a means of reducing the likelihood of getting a party they don't want in power.

That's not democracy - democracy is surely that the people exercise choice. If their choice isn't something you are happy with then there's a responsibility on you to question why your arguments didn't carry the day and maybe consider what you need to do to refine and improve them. That's democracy, as opposed to walking away when you get something you don't like - it's a bit like not getting to be captain of the football team so you take yourself away and set up your own one-man team so you're guaranteed to be captain.

A democracy doesn't have an unelected head of state.

"Thank god we are not a democracy" - ​Peter Hitchens

[Mibbes Aye]

We are given an "allowance" from London, like a child's pocket money. " If you spend all your money on sweets and comics (or in my case Hibs games) dinny come looking for more".


Right you are then :greengrin

The worst thing in all this is that arguing at that level will probably appeal to some folk's need to feel aggrieved.

[CapitalGreen]

The health budget is going up in England is it not?

As for austerity, it doesn't matter whether you blame US mortgage lenders, Gordon Brown, (the lack of) worldwide regulation or whatever - public sector spending either had to reduce or we had to create more debt.

There were few people on here taking a Keynesian line in 2010 and I don't remember you being one, apologies if you were. The point is consensus was created across party affiliation that spending cuts were required.

Budget Increase < inflation Rate, so not in real terms no.

http://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/allocation-summary.pdf

[Mibbes Aye]

We don't change income tax as that would impact on block grant we get (it would be adjusted to negate any change). so its a pretty useless power to have.

Are you sure?

I thought that the new regs in 2016 meant that we directly kept a proportion of the tax take in Scotland (10p in the £) and this was removed from the block grant.

The tax-varying powers we currently have would be superceded by this. I don't think that was ever intended to alter the block grant. I vaguely remember (and can't be bothered googling) that at some point, must have been between 2007-10, that Labour at Westminster cut the basic rate and SNP at Holyrood were mooting using the tax-raising powers to keep a penny on, with the argument that we would have an additional sum of revenue. It was in the low hundreds of millions from memory. Can't remember why they didn't go with it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Budget Increase < inflation Rate, so not in real terms no.

http://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/allocation-summary.pdf

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/PublishingImages/inflationreport/gdpmktaug14wide.gif


IFS is using adjusted figures and evidences a 4.4% real terms increase in England since the downturn compared to a 1.2% real terms decrease in Scotland.

It might not be popular with some, but the IFS is showing that England has 'protected' the NHS funding-wise more than the Scottish Government has.

[jonty]

Are you sure?

I thought that the new regs in 2016 meant that we directly kept a proportion of the tax take in Scotland (10p in the £) and this was removed from the block grant.

The tax-varying powers we currently have would be superceded by this. I don't think that was ever intended to alter the block grant. I vaguely remember (and can't be bothered googling) that at some point, must have been between 2007-10, that Labour at Westminster cut the basic rate and SNP at Holyrood were mooting using the tax-raising powers to keep a penny on, with the argument that we would have an additional sum of revenue. It was in the low hundreds of millions from memory. Can't remember why they didn't go with it.




The existing basic, higher and additional rates of income taxes levied by the UK government would be reduced by 10 pence in the pound for those individuals defined as Scottish taxpayers. The Scottish Parliament will then levy a new Scottish rate of income tax, which will apply equally to all of the main UK rates. The new Scottish income tax rate will need to be set every year by the Scottish Parliament.

The block grant from the UK government to Scotland will then be reduced to reflect the fiscal impact of the devolution of these tax-raising powers.

http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/wordpress/docs/Forecasting-Scottish-taxes.pdf
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_FinanceCommittee/Reports/Budget_Adviser_paper_on_budget_process.pdf

I'm guessing that if it would have been cost effective to do it, they would have.

[Mibbes Aye]

http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/wordpress/docs/Forecasting-Scottish-taxes.pdf
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_FinanceCommittee/Reports/Budget_Adviser_paper_on_budget_process.pdf

I'm guessing that if it would have been cost effective to do it, they would have.

That's what I'm saying - the stuff you're referencing doesn't take effect until 2016.

[jonty]

That's what I'm saying - the stuff you're referencing doesn't take effect until 2016.

So until then, we've got even less power? (apologies - I've been playing quake most of the afternoon and can barely focus, let alone read a govt paper)

[JimBHibees]

The health budget is going up in England is it not?

As for austerity, it doesn't matter whether you blame US mortgage lenders, Gordon Brown, (the lack of) worldwide regulation or whatever - public sector spending either had to reduce or we had to create more debt.

There were few people on here taking a Keynesian line in 2010 and I don't remember you being one, apologies if you were. The point is consensus was created across party affiliation that spending cuts were required.

The overall Scottish budget has been reduced.

[Betty Boop]

A 'day of reckoning' coming, post YES vote.


http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1-3539754

[CropleyWasGod]

A 'day of reckoning' coming, post YES vote.


http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1-3539754

He was out of order saying that. A touch of the old-style SNP, I reckon.

Sturgeon slapped him down for it on the radio this morning.

[Betty Boop]

He was out of order saying that. A touch of the old-style SNP, I reckon.

Sturgeon slapped him down for it on the radio this morning.


Bet you'll love this ! :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsGKhEUoHj4&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

[CropleyWasGod]

Bet you'll love this ! :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsGKhEUoHj4&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

I saw it. Love DH as an actor, but some of his politics have turned me off. That's for another day.

This is why I hate politics. Everybody gets into bed with people that suit their own agenda at that time.

[Mibbes Aye]

So until then, we've got even less power? (apologies - I've been playing quake most of the afternoon and can barely focus, let alone read a govt paper)

:greengrin

I think the answer is that we have been able to increase tax by up to three pence without it affecting the block grant.

This will change. Instead of it being an optional extra as to whether we change the tax rate, we will have to decide on the level of part of the tax rate, so there's a more active decision being made, whether that's keeping it the same or increasing or decreasing it. From 2016, the rate for Scottish income tax payers to HMRC will be reduced by ten pence in the pound (and the block grant accordingly) and the Scottish Government will decide what it charges in income tax on top of that (UK-10p) rate.

So if Scotland charges 10p in the pound, nothing changes - we continue paying the same amount in income tax.

If Scotland decides it's going with 9p in the pound then the basic rate for Scottish payers drops to 19p in the pound (UK 10p + Scotland 9p).

If Scotland decides it's going woth 11p in the pound then the basic rate for Scottish payers becomes 21p in the pound (UK 10p + Scotland 11p).

Any resultant surplus or shortfall is our choice, our responsibility.

All in all, I think Quake is more interesting :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

The overall Scottish budget has been reduced.

We've covered this.

Overall budgets have gone down everywhere. That's the consequence of being in a recession.

The alternative is we borrow more. There are schools of thought that argue for this, hence my citing Keynes. I've not seen you doing that, so I'm assuming you accept that public spending should contract.

It's still an inconvenient truth for the SNP that England is prioritising NHS funding more than Scotland is.

[DaveF]

I wonder if we could declare a hibs.net ceasfire on Wednesday and not post anything on the referendum threads?

Then go absolutely radio rental on Thursday :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Bet you'll love this ! :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsGKhEUoHj4&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

I loved it and it's an excellent piece well written and well performed, but you've just got to keep that in mind it's a performance.

[EH54]

60%-40% YES :thumbsup:

[johnbc70]

60%-40% YES :thumbsup:

Is that a prediction or the latest poll?

[#FromTheCapital]

60%-40% YES :thumbsup:

Not sure where that's come from but I'd actually rather it was a comprehensive margin if yes was to win.