Minutes applause for Nelson Mandela

[lapsedhibee]

Foitball supporters have a definite identify snd a collectiveness.

Though on this particular issue, the family is clearly split!

[Hibbyradge]

Though on this particular issue, the family is clearly split!

I wonder if there's any correlation with the various Lewis Stevenson opinions.

[--------]

Is there a game on today or is this the only subject worth discussing?

I think this thread is a serious candidate for the Holy Ground Forum.......

:wink:


AGREED. :agree:

[hibby6270]

He had a connection to humanity and he touched many people's lives, including football fans.

I'll be proud to join with other Hibs supporters in showing a token of our respect to him for the very last time.

There won't be another chance.

Agree with your first line.

Disagree with your second line. Not that you'll be proud - no - but you'll maybe persuade me to see your side of the argument if you can recall and remind us of the very first time (and others?) you applauded for Nelson Mandela (or any other political leader for that matter).

Third line - that's the whole point of the dissenting voices on this thread. There shouldn't be another chance because it's just not relevant to a football game, no matter how well liked or revered the individual is or was.

Anyway to the most important agenda today. I'm now off to ER to applaud the Cabbage and TB's first home 3 points. GGTTH :tbgwa::thumbsup:

[hibby6270]

The clue is in the word 'spontaneous'.

George Best was a great footballer who had played for Hibs - it made perfect sense for the club to recognise his place in the game and in the history of Hibs. I don't think anyone objects to any sort of tribute in such circumstances.

But it's reached the point where people are being expected to stand and applaud or stand in silence for all sorts of people most of whom have little or no connection with the game of football.

There was no official notice taken or Remembrance at ER. That's a commemoration with a direct connection to Scotland and to Edinburgh and has been observed for nearly 100 years now. Many Hibs players and supporters are among those being remembered at that time of year, yet there was no notice taken of it this year.

So why then a recognition of Mandela - especially when it's clear from this thread that there are quite a number of people who are uncomfortable with the idea?

Sometimes people get a reputation for good or evil so overmastering that no one's allowed to question it or even examine it, and right now Nelson Mandela seems to be one of them. He's one of the greatest men of the 20th century - period. But history will sooner or later start to re-appraise his life and work, and maybe 50 years from now he won't be considered quite such an all-round good guy as he seems now.

That said, South Africa will miss him and his influence and will probably be the worse for his death. There's no questioning his greatness, but whether a football stadium in Edinburgh on a wet afternoon just before Christmas is the place for a non-spontaneous act of remembrance is another question.

I don't think it is, and I think we should be a lot more sparing with our public outpourings of grief/sympathy/whatever.

Well said Doddie

[Betty Boop]

Agree with your first line.

Disagree with your second line. Not that you'll be proud - no - but you'll maybe persuade me to see your side of the argument if you can recall and remind us of the very first time (and others?) you applauded for Nelson Mandela (or any other political leader for that matter).

Third line - that's the whole point of the dissenting voices on this thread. There shouldn't be another chance because it's just not relevant to a football game, no matter how well liked or revered the individual is or was.

Anyway to the most important agenda today. I'm now off to ER to applaud the Cabbage and TB's first home 3 points. GGTTH :tbgwa::thumbsup:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/nelson-mandela-becomes-first-politician-to-be-miss,34755/?ref=auto

[hibby6270]

applause . yes. don't understand the don't want too's.

Simple. It's all to do with relevance.

[jdships]

The clue is in the word 'spontaneous'.

George Best was a great footballer who had played for Hibs - it made perfect sense for the club to recognise his place in the game and in the history of Hibs. I don't think anyone objects to any sort of tribute in such circumstances.

But it's reached the point where people are being expected to stand and applaud or stand in silence for all sorts of people most of whom have little or no connection with the game of football.

There was no official notice taken or Remembrance at ER. That's a commemoration with a direct connection to Scotland and to Edinburgh and has been observed for nearly 100 years now. Many Hibs players and supporters are among those being remembered at that time of year, yet there was no notice taken of it this year.

So why then a recognition of Mandela - especially when it's clear from this thread that there are quite a number of people who are uncomfortable with the idea?

Sometimes people get a reputation for good or evil so overmastering that no one's allowed to question it or even examine it, and right now Nelson Mandela seems to be one of them. He's one of the greatest men of the 20th century - period. But history will sooner or later start to re-appraise his life and work, and maybe 50 years from now he won't be considered quite such an all-round good guy as he seems now.

That said, South Africa will miss him and his influence and will probably be the worse for his death. There's no questioning his greatness, but whether a football stadium in Edinburgh on a wet afternoon just before Christmas is the place for a non-spontaneous act of remembrance is another question.

I don't think it is, and I think we should be a lot more sparing with our public outpourings of grief/sympathy/whatever.

Good post Doddie :thumbsup:
Public outpourings of " grief/sympathy/whatever " are now somewhat like the use of " Legend" in football/sport .
" Everything in its place and a place for everything comes to mind "

[Hiber-nation]

From what I could see in the East plus the whole of the West and FF, there were 3 people sitting on their erses not applauding so I doubt this thread is representative of the Hibs support as a whole.

[Andy74]

From what I could see in the East plus the whole of the West and FF, there were 3 people sitting on their erses not applauding so I doubt this thread is representative of the Hibs support as a whole.

Yeah but most people like myself who had the view that we shouldn't have these still know how to behave in public when it's been agreed to have one!

[Sir David Gray]

Too much potential for trouble imo.

I for one would take a massive exception to 3 and I really hope we aren't stupid enough to have one when it does actually occur.

If you think Hibs will have even the slightest choice in whether or not we hold a minute's silence to mark the death of the queen then you're going to be extremely disappointed.


I'd cut 6 & 7 from the list.

You don't think that when an atrocity such as the Lockerbie bombing or the massacre at Dunblane occurs, that it's appropriate to hold a minute of silence?


No for me, that's politics.

The Head of State in the UK is apolitical so that's not technically anything to do with politics.

The Head of Government is more controversial, I would admit, but i think that if the current Prime Minister was to pass away whilst still in office, there would be an argument for that to be marked by a minute's silence.

On reflection, though, I would be willing to accept that one being withdrawn.


sorry but I need to cut in here: if Thatcher had died and they announced a minutes silence, I'd have been dancing and singing! I have no allegiance to the current head of state (uk) but would respect it, the others you mention,same. Mandela, one man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter as the old saying goes, but without doubt he was a statesman above any parralells ever seen. I attended a few rallies/fund raisers etc before his release, within the context of assisting others to achieve his release. does that make me some sort of terrorist allegiant?

As I've said above, I think there is an argument for holding a minute's silence if the Head of Government passes away whilst they're still in office but I realise it is potentially quite divisive so I would be willing to cut that one out.

[Keith_M]

From what I could see in the East plus the whole of the West and FF, there were 3 people sitting on their erses not applauding so I doubt this thread is representative of the Hibs support as a whole.


What a stupid comment.

I'm not aware of anyone on here that said they would NOT respect a minutes silence (or applause). The discussion was about whether it was appropriate for a football match.

[Hiber-nation]

What a stupid comment.

I'm not aware of anyone on here that said they would NOT respect a minutes silence (or applause). The discussion was about whether it was appropriate for a football match.

Wow. Thanks for that contribution.

[Hiber-nation]

Yeah but most people like myself who had the view that we shouldn't have these still know how to behave in public when it's been agreed to have one!

Fair enough!

[Johnny Clash]

What a stupid comment.

I'm not aware of anyone on here that said they would NOT respect a minutes silence (or applause). The discussion was about whether it was appropriate for a football match.


As expected just about every single supporter of both teams were on their feet applauding a great man.

I wasn't aware of anyone not joining in but I'm not surprised if one or two didn't. I'm sure they'll be feeling mighty proud of themselves and it'll be one to tell their grandkids.

I also thought the tribute at half time was very appropriate too - well done St. Patricks branch for organising this.

Both tributes made me think if there was any other club in the world that was formed like us. A club who immediately had to face up to bigotry and persecution? Our founders had to literally fight against anti-Irish sectarianism and violence. The bigots in the 1870s tried to get Hibernian banned from the league on the grounds we were an Irish team and gangs of extremist Protestant Action nutters would attack our players when the trained. They only stopped the violent attacks against Hibernian players when Irish navvies living in 'little Ireland' armed themselves with pick axe handles and formed an effective guard who didn't hold back when the mob next tried to attack our team.

So today was a day to stand and applaud one of the greatest men to fight against persecution and bigotry whilst remembering our own history.

We did it in style. Proud to be a Hibernian!

[joe breezy]

From what I could see in the East plus the whole of the West and FF, there were 3 people sitting on their erses not applauding so I doubt this thread is representative of the Hibs support as a whole.

Human beings are sheep in terms of behaviour. Herd by Mark Earls documents this well. I study psychology as part of my job.

Anyway, if I was there I would have applauded - I do appreciate that this guy who was a terrorist then became a man of complete peace when he could have directed his people into civil war.

So I respect him completely as everyone else does but still wouldn't have arranged applause when we can't be arsed remembering the war dead. My dad was at the game in the Thistle end and he clapped too, as he would have respected the silence that an honourable football club would have insisted on at Remembrance Sunday.

[Hiber-nation]

Human beings are sheep in terms of behaviour. Herd by Mark Earls documents this well. I study psychology as part of my job.

Anyway, if I was there I would have applauded - I do appreciate that this guy who was a terrorist then became a man of complete peace when he could have directed his people into civil war.

So I respect him completely as everyone else does but still wouldn't have arranged applause when we can't be arsed remembering the war dead. My dad wad at the game in the Thistle end and he clapped too, as he would have respected the silence that an honourable football club would have insisted on at Remembrance Sunday.

:aok:

[Arch Stanton]

Human beings are sheep in terms of behaviour. Herd by Mark Earls documents this well. I study psychology as part of my job.

Anyway, if I was there I would have applauded - I do appreciate that this guy who was a terrorist then became a man of complete peace when he could have directed his people into civil war.

So I respect him completely as everyone else does but still wouldn't have arranged applause when we can't be arsed remembering the war dead. My dad was at the game in the Thistle end and he clapped too, as he would have respected the silence that an honourable football club would have insisted on at Remembrance Sunday.

I've often observed silences without knowing the reason - I actually thought it made me a spiritual being rather than a pack animal to be honest.

[joe breezy]

I've often observed silences without knowing the reason - I actually thought it made me a spiritual being rather than a pack animal to be honest.

I would have applauded today because I was paying respect to the guy's life - but the point i was making is that one can still be against the decision to ignore the sacrifices of our grandfathers yet do an applause for a guy in Africa who has no connection to Hibs.

Will we do applause when the Dalai Lama dies?

[Arch Stanton]

I would have applauded today because I was paying respect to the guy's life - but the point i was making is that one can still be against the decision to ignore the sacrifices of our grandfathers yet do an applause for a guy in Africa who has no connection to Hibs.

Will we do applause when the Dalai Lama dies?

If the bit I highlighted makes any sense then I'm a centipede.

And "will we do applause"? Well, I will if you will - are you game?

[hibsbollah]

this guy who was a terrorist
I find it bizarre that this line keeps getting trotted out on hibs net, when even the young Tories have abandoned the pretence that its accurate. By no sane measurement can Mandela be ever be described as a terrorist. Just naw. Enough.

[Expecting Rain]

This thread says a lot about people who are trying to be significant in terms of their own importance. The minute silence has come and gone.............................................. .

[Arch Stanton]

This thread says a lot about people who are trying to be significant in terms of their own importance. The minute silence has come and gone.............................................. .

Everything in the past has come and gone so what's your point. Or is this just your turn to show your importance?

[Expecting Rain]

Everything in the past has come and gone so what's your point. Or is this just your turn to show your importance?

Insignificant as i am i chose to applaud hoping and believing in a man that tried to change things for the best. No offence intended.

[mim]

I heard the applause of those like me who clapped. I couldn't hear the silence of those who didn't - fine by me

[jabis]

I'm not sure whats misleading about what he plead guilty to. (At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places)

The fact they were in public places means innocent folk will be injured and killed, now i have no doubt he wanted to bring pressure on the government, but bombing innocent men women and children will never be right in my opinion.

there's you,the BNP,the National Front,and you're bum chum Nigel whatshisname,.......words fail me !

[PapillonVert]

I find it bizarre that this line keeps getting trotted out on hibs net, when even the young Tories have abandoned the pretence that its accurate. By no sane measurement can Mandela be ever be described as a terrorist. Just naw. Enough.

So correct! The fight against apartheid was a major struggle in the advance of humankind and the treatment of all peoples in all parts of the world. In other words, towards inclusion and tolerance and acceptance of all. Mandela, for all his imperfections, is the total embodiment of that. He was the moral voice of the world for decades.

As far as I can tell, the present-day terrorism is a complete denial of everything Mandela stood for - narrow-minded, intolerant, against freedom, against humanity, against the joy of being human, against the possibility of trying to be more accepting, against the possibility of being better and more understanding.

Just totally negative and destructive in other words.

RIP Madiba.

[Andy74]

So correct! The fight against apartheid was a major struggle in the advance of humankind and the treatment of all peoples in all parts of the world. In other words, towards inclusion and tolerance and acceptance of all. Mandela, for all his imperfections, is the total embodiment of that. He was the moral voice of the world for decades.

As far as I can tell, the present-day terrorism is a complete denial of everything Mandela stood for - narrow-minded, intolerant, against freedom, against humanity, against the joy of being human, against the possibility of trying to be more accepting, against the possibility of being better and more understanding.

Just totally negative and destructive in other words.

RIP Madiba.

Not really. Most terrorists have what they believe to be an honourable cause to further. Agreeing on the cause depends on your particular view on the matter. He did accept various charges of what we would consider to be terrorist type activities did he not? So at a certain stage in his life he could rightly have been considered a terrorist?

[Geo_1875]

I find it bizarre that this line keeps getting trotted out on hibs net, when even the young Tories have abandoned the pretence that its accurate. By no sane measurement can Mandela be ever be described as a terrorist. Just naw. Enough.

He pled guilty. What else can he be called?

[stoneyburn hibs]

He pled guilty. What else can he be called?

A nice terrorist, because that is what the mainstream media has told us for..........ever.

[Golden Bear]

Were the Xmas shoppers in the city centre also requested to participate in a minutes applause? Just wondering likesay.

[PapillonVert]

Not really. Most terrorists have what they believe to be an honourable cause to further. Agreeing on the cause depends on your particular view on the matter. He did accept various charges of what we would consider to be terrorist type activities did he not? So at a certain stage in his life he could rightly have been considered a terrorist?

So, you're saying modern-day terrorism is positive or leads to positive outcomes? (Leaving out what the terrorists themselves believe which is beside the point).

If you're talking about the 'armed struggle' I would still argue that that does not equate with modern-day terrorism because the fight was against an inimical system which oppressed a huge majority and towards political freedom for all and not maintenance of an oppressive system for the continuance of power and influence for a tiny minority.

[jabis]

Were the Xmas shoppers in the city centre also requested to participate in a minutes applause? Just wondering likesay.

i can only assume you're taking on a "yam" persona :confused:

[Liberal Hibby]

He pled guilty. What else can he be called?

I suggest you read this before calling him a terrorist:

http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430

[Golden Bear]

i can only assume you're taking on a "yam" persona :confused:

Me no comprenez I'm afraid. The point I was making was why only foottball.?

[MADE IN LEITH]

From what I could see in the East plus the whole of the West and FF, there were 3 people sitting on their erses not applauding so I doubt this thread is representative of the Hibs support as a whole.

Correct, hypocrisy is sheepish at times my friend, the man was deserved of a minute of our time today.

The most pathetic thing regarding this thread is how some people try to jockey up support in order to justify their own opinion and even go as far to muliti-quote other posters of the same opinion as them. Misguided protagonists spring to mind.

Very sad, just have your say (which everyone has a right to do) and move on and maybe this thread would not be as farcical than it has become.

:cb

[PapillonVert]

He pled guilty. What else can he be called?

Now this is interesting. He pled guilty to the laws which were in force under the apartheid regime. There was perhaps a political imperative for him to do so. These have since been found to be unfair and unreasonable because they were based on discrimination due to colour and race.

He pled guilty, therefore, to charges under unfair laws under an unfair political system against whose iniquities he was fighting.

He won his struggle, in other words he proved that the political and legal system of S. Africa was unfair and discriminatory.

You say, correctly, that under the discredited law of apartheid S. Africa, he was found to be a terrorist. Does that make him a terrorist? Only under a discredited legal system, surely? If the system of law is later discredited, as it has been, then the decisions made under that law are themselves by definition discredited.

To say that Mandela was found to be terrorist under the discredited law against which he fought and which he by political argument overturned is disingenuous to say the least.

It also begs the question: are all terrorists equal?

[bigwheel]

I suggest you read this before calling him a terrorist:

http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430

Nice post.....I think some prefer their "daily mail" headline thoughts rather than details and truth.....

[jabis]

It's nothing tae do with the minute or a lack of respect or anything else, if it happens I'll respect it or if it's somebody I have nae respect for or totally despise I'll stay away until it's over. It's why fitba is continually getting it's self involved that's the issue when it has nothing tae do with fitba. Why should people who have nae wish tae take part in these things have it foist upon them (or be made tae feel uncomfortable about no taking part) just because they happen attend the fitba. Should we have a minutes silence every time somebody dies? I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life,
I can think of many people closer tae me I'd rather have such a thing for, can they all have one too? Let people go tae organised events for these things if they want tae or let them find another way tae do it and stop puting it upon other folk.


"I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life"


:aok:


dick

[jabis]

"I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life"


:aok:


dick

apologies,that sounds bad :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

He pled guilty. What else can he be called?

Are you serious?

People have been convicted of crimes by corrupt totalitarian regimes throughout history - often confessing or pleading guilty when they were innocent. Women confessed to witchcraft, Christians confessed to heresy and socialists confessed to crimes against the state and the people in Nazi Germany.

Describing Mandela as a terrorist is either just lazy or it is politically motivated. He was no saint - he was human after all - but he certainly wasn't a terrorist.

[One Day Soon]

A nice terrorist, because that is what the mainstream media has told us for..........ever.

What's your point?

[FranckSuzy]

apologies,that sounds bad :greengrin

Agreed :agree: :greengrin

[hibsdaft]

Not really. Most terrorists have what they believe to be an honourable cause to further. Agreeing on the cause depends on your particular view on the matter. He did accept various charges of what we would consider to be terrorist type activities did he not? So at a certain stage in his life he could rightly have been considered a terrorist?

you can try and define all sorts of violence as terrorism if you really want to.

if Mandela was a terrorist, so was William Wallace, so was Winston Churchill, so were Charles De Gaulle and the French Resistants, and so were the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. So were the Hungarians in 1945 and the Czechs in 1968.

unless you actually believe in apartheid, you just don't.

[Geo_1875]

So Mandela and the ANC were right and Ghandi was wrong?

[Betty Boop]

Don't know if mentioned but a word to the hibs TV team, we can still hear you at half time, Nelson Mandela jokes were out of order, regardless of what they were.

Poor show.

[Andy74]

you can try and define all sorts of violence as terrorism if you really want to.

if Mandela was a terrorist, so was William Wallace, so was Winston Churchill, so were Charles De Gaulle and the French Resistants, and so were the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. So were the Hungarians in 1945 and the Czechs in 1968.

unless you actually believe in apartheid, you just don't.

I agree with you. That's my point.

My argument was really with those suggesting the likes of a Gerry Adams would be very different. Why? It's just because they don't agree with the cause.

[Saorsa]

"I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life"


:aok:


dickDidnae ken yer name was dick, though I could have guessed :aok:

[hibby rae]

So correct! The fight against apartheid was a major struggle in the advance of humankind and the treatment of all peoples in all parts of the world. In other words, towards inclusion and tolerance and acceptance of all. Mandela, for all his imperfections, is the total embodiment of that. He was the moral voice of the world for decades.

As far as I can tell, the present-day terrorism is a complete denial of everything Mandela stood for - narrow-minded, intolerant, against freedom, against humanity, against the joy of being human, against the possibility of trying to be more accepting, against the possibility of being better and more understanding.

Just totally negative and destructive in other words.

RIP Madiba.

Very good points made in my opinion. My brother told me about this clip last night, Mandela quoting Malcolm X. I think it justifies their actions and unless we were in their position there is no way we can know how we'd respond to the daily abuses they endured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=844oPFWG6Lg