Minutes applause for Nelson Mandela

[The Sea-gull]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

[Andy74]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

I'm prefer not to have any of these sort of things. They don't do them at the cinema or Tesco. Not sure why football needs to be different.

[DaveF]

Don't agree with a minutes applause tomorrow if it happens.

[shagpile]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

I thought the SPL did the Helicopter victims last weekend? & yes, we should give the man a minutes applause.

[Geo_1875]

I thought FIFA/EUFA/SPFL/SFA were trying to keep politics away from football?

[Spike Mandela]

For obvious reasons I will be applauding if this is given the go ahead by the SPFL.

A man who deserves respect and whose integrity, honour and values a club like Hibs should be proud aligning itself with.

If it doesn't go ahead, no biggie, I will find other ways to pay my respects. I was surprised when Hibs didn't have a minutes silence for remembrance in November.

[Pretty Boy]

These minutes applauses and silences at football confuse me.

The helicopter one last week made sense, it was a tragedy that happened in Scotland. I remember we had one a few years back for the tsunami disaster but then we didn't for the typhoon in the Philipines a couple of weeks back, how was that decided? We had one after 9/11 but didn't after the Bali bombings, 2 terrorist attacks on foreign soil with multiple deaths so again who decided which one 'deserved' a minutes silence and which didn't.

It all seems very confused to me so i'd rather we didn't. I'm not saying for a minute Nelson Mandela isn't deserving of our respect but these things just seem a bit confusing to me.

[Danny_Hibee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

Minutes silence was held last week for victims of the helicoper crash.

[Stonewall]

I think if anyone deserves a minute's applause it's Mandela and I for one would like to pay my respects.

[bigwheel]

One of the few truly remarkable leaders of our time …I will be happy to take a minute to show respect for this great man

[Geo_1875]

These minutes applauses and silences at football confuse me.

The helicopter one last week made sense, it was a tragedy that happened in Scotland. I remember we had one a few years back for the tsunami disaster but then we didn't for the typhoon in the Philipines a couple of weeks back, how was that decided? We had one after 9/11 but didn't after the Bali bombings, 2 terrorist attacks on foreign soil with multiple deaths so again who decided which one 'deserved' a minutes silence and which didn't.

It all seems very confused to me so i'd rather we didn't. I'm not saying for a minute Nelson Mandela isn't deserving of our respect but these things just seem a bit confusing to me.

Totally agree with this. If you allow these decisions to be made arbitrarily they allow individual agendas to come into play. Fair enough with Remembrance Sunday or if our head of state dies or if there is an international disaster. And would it not have made sense to have it next week on the day of his funeral if it was felt necessary?

[DaveF]

I think if anyone deserves a minute's applause it's Mandela and I for one would like to pay my respects.


One of the few truly remarkable leaders of our time …I will be happy to take a minute to show respect for this great man

I'm certain there are lots of people who would like to pay their respects, but at a football game, where there may be a sizeable number who don't really care either way?

There are bound to be books of condolence at City Chambers and no doubt other events where people can rightly recognise Mandela and his life.

I'm just not convinced an SPL game is the right place at all.

[blackpoolhibs]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

[Johnny Clash]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.


Nelson Mandela was a legend whose principles and courage made a difference throughout the world not just within South Africa. One example was his emphasis on 'truth and reconciliation' that became a model that helped Ireland move forward.

His influence at the time of his release made sure there was no predicted blood bath to take revenge on those who had systematically brutalised the peoples of South Africa. It was a very tense time and he calmed it all down.



Mandela was a humble man of the people . It would mean more to him if football supporters showed genuine respect rather than all the royal families across the world saying they are upset to hear the news but did not lift a finger to help get him released from jail.

If Bullingdon Boys like Cameron and Boris Johnson (they had posters made of Mandela emblazoned with 'terrorist') can now praise Mandela then I am sure us Hibees will have no problem clapping a great man for 60 seconds.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

A very interesting point that has pretty much been overlooked by the MSM, still, this should be fun!

[Peevemor]

As I've posted a couple of times before, I think there should be a single minute of silence per year, possibly before the new year's day (or equivalent) fixtures. In this way each individual could have his or her own moment of reflection for those who have passed away during the previous year, be it friends, family, former players, world leaders - whoever.

[Killiehibbie]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?He was a freedom fighter not a terrorist. You'll be getting called a racist soon. Ireland's different that's British soil:wink:

[Johnny Clash]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

Pathetic drivel!

Even the most extreme bigots now try hide the ill informed and hateful comments that they made in the past about Nelson Mandela. Can't believe I just read that.

[blackpoolhibs]

A very interesting point that has pretty much been overlooked by the MSM, still, this should be fun!


He was a freedom fighter not a terrorist. You'll be getting called a racist soon. Ireland's different that's British soil:wink:

Aye should be fun HH, i suppose killing an innocent Afrikan is different to killing an innocent Irishman. :confused:

[Kojock]

Aye should be fun HH, i suppose killing an innocent Afrikan is different to killing an innocent Irishman. :confused:

A quick search on Google reveals this, (not sure how accurate it is tho)

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Just saying likes.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Said it before, if we had a tribute for every deserving cause, there would be one a week. It's a no from me.

[blackpoolhibs]

A quick search on Google reveals this, (not sure how accurate it is tho)

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Just saying likes.

Pathetic drivel.

[easty]

There shouldn't be a minutes silence/applause, I just cant see any reason for it.

[NeilOrrSquareBa]

For obvious reasons I will be applauding if this is given the go ahead by the SPFL.

A man who deserves respect and whose integrity, honour and values a club like Hibs should be proud aligning itself with.

If it doesn't go ahead, no biggie, I will find other ways to pay my respects. I was surprised when Hibs didn't have a minutes silence for remembrance in November. :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?


Aye should be fun HH, i suppose killing an innocent Afrikan is different to killing an innocent Irishman. :confused:

Whereas the massacres in Londonderry, and Sharpeville were totally justified? All too confusing, who is an innocent killer, and an innocent victim.

[lapsedhibee]

Pathetic drivel.

:greengrin

[Kojock]

Pathetic drivel.


I see what you did there :wink:

[leggeto]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

controversial

[Beefster]

Me and Mrs Beefster held a minute's applause this morning before we left the house. The dog got into the spirit of it by drooling on my shoes. If we can do it, so can the Hibs support.

I don't think that there's any comparison with being oppressed because of the colour of your skin and thinking that a bit of land in another country should be in a different country though. Unless you're in the Green Brigade.

[blackpoolhibs]

Whereas the massacres in Londonderry, and Sharpeville were totally justified? All too confusing, who is an innocent killer, and an innocent victim.

:agree:

[Pretty Boy]

A quick search on Google reveals this, (not sure how accurate it is tho)

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Just saying likes.

I suppose the Sharpeville massacre, 69 dead, years of state oppression and brutality and living under the horrendous Pass Laws probably made the ANC think that apartheid leaders weren't the type to negotiate peacefully.

[DaveF]

Me and Mrs Beefster held a minute's applause this morning before we left the house. The dog got into the spirit of it by drooling on my shoes. If we can do it, so can the Hibs support.

I don't think that there's any comparison with being oppressed because of the colour of your skin and thinking that a bit of land in another country should be in a different country though. Unless you're in the Green Brigade.

Oh, I think we can do it. Point is, whether we should or not.

As I said earlier, I have no doubt there will be plenty of opportunities for you (and your dog :greengrin) to pay your respects at other events. I just don't see the connection with our game tomorrow.

[blackpoolhibs]

I suppose the Sharpeville massacre, 69 dead, years of state oppression and brutality and living under the horrendous Pass Laws probably made the ANC think that apartheid leaders weren't the type to negotiate peacefully.

By blowing up random men women and children, is there ever any reason to do this?

[The Sea-gull]

I'm prefer not to have any of these sort of things. They don't do them at the cinema or Tesco. Not sure why football needs to be different.

More or less agree as where do we draw the line?

My belief is that if there is a significant Scottish or UK tradegy or if someone with real significance to the club, Scottish football, Scotland or the UK in general then maybe a tribute required.

Also, serious international tragic events should maybe be looked at but then how do we categorise what is and what isn't "big" enough to warrant a tribute at a football match.

[Pretty Boy]

By blowing up random men women and children, is there ever any reason to do this?

Misleading nonsense.

MK was founded to channel what Mandela warned would be inevitable violence due to rising hostility to apartheid laws.

Their aim was always maximum pressure and damage to the government with minimal casualties. Governement buildings, power stations, military bases etc were targeted when they were empty. The Johannesburg station bombing mentioned earlier, which was never proven to be linked to Mandela, led to 1 death. The ANC had repeatedly tried to protest peacefully: workers strikes, marches, sit ins etc but were met with violence and brutality at almost every turn.

[Geo_1875]

More or less agree as where do we draw the line?

My belief is that if there is a significant Scottish or UK tradegy or if someone with real significance to the club, Scottish football, Scotland or the UK in general then maybe a tribute required.

Also, serious international tragic events should maybe be looked at but then how do we categorise what is and what isn't "big" enough to warrant a tribute at a football match.

Maybe we should create a Government department to make decisions on what constitutes an event worthy of National mourning. Maybe have a public consultation. We could then set aside a minute during the week when everybody would stop and respect a minutes silence, applause, laughter or tears as they see fit. I think that makes more sense than holding a minutes applause at random times at random events where people are picked on for not joining in.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Maybe we should create a Government department to make decisions on what constitutes an event worthy of National mourning. Maybe have a public consultation. We could then set aside a minute during the week when everybody would stop and respect a minutes silence, applause, laughter or tears as they see fit. I think that makes more sense than holding a minutes applause at random times at random events where people are picked for not joining in.

Maybe we need to start accepting death for what it is, and not be so hung up about making a show when people die - no matter how significant the person, or tragic the circumstances.

I doubt if there has been a minutes silence for the victims of the Clydebank Blitz.

[Saorsa]

No! Getting ridiculous with all these minutes silences and applauses. It disnae seem tae happen anywhere else, why does fitba always have tae be involved. Games on Remembrance Sunday should have one, other than that it should be for people with a significant place in fitba or by clubs for people significant tae them. This has nothing tae do with fitba and therefore nae need tae get involved IMO.

[Scouse Hibee]

I will disrupt any planned minutes applause by standing still and silent.He's already had a tower block named after him in Peckham why do anything else.

[Purehibee_MYB]

No! Getting ridiculous with all these minutes silences and applauses. It disnae seem tae happen anywhere else, why does fitba always have tae be involved. Games on Remembrance Sunday should have one, other than that it should be for people with a significant place in fitba or by clubs for people significant tae them. This has nothing tae do with fitba and therefore nae need tae get involved IMO.
Would have to agree with this really. If we have minutes silence/applause for every significant figure the world has seen when they die then it loses the significance of actually doing it. As important as Mandela was to fighting oppression, we can't just have these commemorations all the time, it becomes ridiculous.

[blackpoolhibs]

Misleading nonsense.

MK was founded to channel what Mandela warned would be inevitable violence due to rising hostility to apartheid laws.

Their aim was always maximum pressure and damage to the government with minimal casualties. Governement buildings, power stations, military bases etc were targeted when they were empty. The Johannesburg station bombing mentioned earlier, which was never proven to be linked to Mandela, led to 1 death. The ANC had repeatedly tried to protest peacefully: workers strikes, marches, sit ins etc but were met with violence and brutality at almost every turn.

I'm not sure whats misleading about what he plead guilty to. (At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places)

The fact they were in public places means innocent folk will be injured and killed, now i have no doubt he wanted to bring pressure on the government, but bombing innocent men women and children will never be right in my opinion.

[cabbageandribs1875]

naw


that is all

[Onion]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

Wow

[AndyB_70]

Misleading nonsense.

MK was founded to channel what Mandela warned would be inevitable violence due to rising hostility to apartheid laws.

Their aim was always maximum pressure and damage to the government with minimal casualties. Governement buildings, power stations, military bases etc were targeted when they were empty. The Johannesburg station bombing mentioned earlier, which was never proven to be linked to Mandela, led to 1 death. The ANC had repeatedly tried to protest peacefully: workers strikes, marches, sit ins etc but were met with violence and brutality at almost every turn.

:agree: I think BB has lost the plot on this. Comparing the Northern Ireland issue with true oppression is remarkable. Many peaceful protests were met with incredidble violence from the SA government of the day which could only lead to violence eventually.
Even our wonderful leader David Cameron worked in the Tory Policy Unit in 1989 and went on a fact finding mission to SA with a pro-apartheid lobby firm, paid for by PW Botha, to try and help get around the international sanctions. I'm waiting for his words of wisdom on this matter but I suspect it won't get mentioned. I'm also sure that when he was a student he was a leading member of some Conservative Students group that created "Hang Mandela" posters.

Anyway..... I don't think we need a minutes applause at a football game.

[lamtarra]

I'm not sure whats misleading about what he plead guilty to. (At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places)

The fact they were in public places means innocent folk will be injured and killed, now i have no doubt he wanted to bring pressure on the government, but bombing innocent men women and children will never be right in my opinion.


It must be of great regret to those that were battling the evil of Apartheid that they didn't have the benefit of your insight into such matters.

If there's a minute's applause tomorrow don't clap and no doubt you'll be in good company with any other pure bred pacifists (or racists pretending to be pure bred pacifists I suppose) and other such conscientious objectors.

[jacomo]

controversial

Plain ignorant.

As they say, sometimes it's a good idea to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot, rather than open your mouth and confirm it.

[SaulGoodman]

If there's a minute's applause tomorrow don't clap and no doubt you'll be in good company with any other pure bred pacifists (or racists pretending to be pure bred pacifists I suppose) and other such conscientious objectors.

That's a bold generalisation.

[Scouse Hibee]

It must be of great regret to those that were battling the evil of Apartheid that they didn't have the benefit of your insight into such matters.

If there's a minute's applause tomorrow don't clap and no doubt you'll be in good company with any other pure bred pacifists (or racists pretending to be pure bred pacifists I suppose) and other such conscientious objectors.

Haha I wondered how long it would take.

[GreenPJ]

For me Nelson Mandela was one of the most influential figures in the last 100 years - if you don't want to pay respects then don't clap.

[jodjam]

There should be no minutes applause tomorrow. If people want to mark his life then they can sign the book of condolence in Edinburgh or through prayer if that suits them.

[One Day Soon]

I'm not sure whats misleading about what he plead guilty to. (At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places)

The fact they were in public places means innocent folk will be injured and killed, now i have no doubt he wanted to bring pressure on the government, but bombing innocent men women and children will never be right in my opinion.

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

People plead guilty to all sorts of things under oppressive regimes. Check out the show trials under Hitler and Stalin, never mind various tin pot South American dictators.

In the most evil of circumstances he managed to walk the best possible line between resistance and acceptance. Just a few minutes listening to his views gives you to understand that if there had been any other meaningful way to end the discrimination, violence, oppression and institutionalised racism in South Africa then he would have taken it. He confronted a regime which tortured and murdered systemically - and won. What's more he didn't just defeat it, he ended up co-opting a lot of it and drawing former oppressors into becoming co-agents of change. His achievement is monumental.

More than that - much, much more than that - he conducted himself with dignity, honesty and integrity during his captivity and then in his release such that he was able to rally both whites and non-whites to the new South Africa. If his country lionises him why shouldn't we? If the white captain of the Springboks can idolise him why can't we? As someone else has written, he shows the path we all should want to walk while Mugabe in Zimbabwe shows the path we all too often walk.

If all our political leaders were like him we would live in a much better world. What other leader had or has that honesty, unselfishness, dedication and natural warmth? The Middle East aches for a figure like him.

Oh and no to anything at the football. There are already too many of the public grief merchants attaching themselves to the latest opportunity for a public lovey-in. He may be the greatest man to have ever lived, best let his story speak for itself.

[(((Fergus)))]

If people aren't happy with a minute's applause, how about 30 seconds?

[hibbytam]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

Would you have the same opinion of someone like Churchill? He ordered bombs to be dropped indiscriminately, and killed many civilians at the same time.

The comparison to Ireland is laughable, and makes you look like a fool. Look at his achievements after release, and becoming president. If he was a mere terrorist, he would have used that to get revenge. He didn't. He was one of the good ones.

I'm not sure if a Scottish football game is the place to commemorate him though.

[Newry Hibs]

I don't think there should be.

It's got nothing to do with football, Hibs or Scotland. Not sure why 'football' needs to show repsct to anyone really.

However in this post Diana period, there seems to be an overwhelming desire to have to show other people just how you're affected.

Personally, if I want to show some repsect or have some contemplation time, then I'll do it when it suits me (with or without a dog). Not sure why I'd have to do it in a football stadium.

I think rememberance sunday had it right - at eleven o'clock, stop and remember if you want.

Too much forced grief these days.

[weonlywon6-2]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?


A very strong statement to make and i was wondering how long it would take before this was brought up

[Dashing Bob S]

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

People plead guilty to all sorts of things under oppressive regimes. Check out the show trials under Hitler and Stalin, never mind various tin pot South American dictators.

In the most evil of circumstances he managed to walk the best possible line between resistance and acceptance. Just a few minutes listening to his views gives you to understand that if there had been any other meaningful way to end the discrimination, violence, oppression and institutionalised racism in South Africa then he would have taken it. He confronted a regime which tortured and murdered systemically - and won. What's more he didn't just defeat it, he ended up co-opting a lot of it and drawing former oppressors into becoming co-agents of change. His achievement is monumental.

More than that - much, much more than that - he conducted himself with dignity, honesty and integrity during his captivity and then in his release such that he was able to rally both whites and non-whites to the new South Africa. If his country lionises him why shouldn't we? If the white captain of the Springboks can idolise him why can't we? As someone else has written, he shows the path we all should want to walk while Mugabe in Zimbabwe shows the path we all too often walk.

If all our political leaders were like him we would live in a much better world. What other leader had or has that honesty, unselfishness, dedication and natural warmth? The Middle East aches for a figure like him.

Oh and no to anything at the football. There are already too many of the public grief merchants attaching themselves to the latest opportunity for a public lovey-in. He may be the greatest man to have ever lived, best let his story speak for itself.

:top marks The definitive post on this subject. He's simply too big and important a figure to be even sullied by discussion as to whether he should or shouldn't have a minutes applause/silence/group masturbation at a poxy Scottish football match.

[leggeto]

Plain ignorant.

As they say, sometimes it's a good idea to keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot, rather than open your mouth and confirm it.

I could sense a big debate on the back of that statement,for me I think he made a huge difference to the world,not a lot of people can do that

[--------]

No.

This thread demonstrates why. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. If someone respects Mandela and what he did in his life, fine, but I don't see why the SFA or any other official body should decide that everyone attending a particular event unrelated to Mandela's death should participate in a public tribute.

There are far too many of these things these days anyway.

And if folks can't be trusted to keep silence, applause to cover any dissenters is hypocrisy.

[CB_NO3]

I think a minute applause or a minute silence should be for football related deaths and deaths of leaders in your own country only. As someone said, we should keep political figures as far away from football as possible because whether we like it or not, someone will not approve. Its just the way of life.

I even thought the minute silence for the helicopter crash was a bit silly. I mean where do we draw the line? Why did we not have one for the 3 teenagers that lost their lives in a major car crash in Scotland last week? Do we only have them for unusual deaths or was it because it was a Police helicopter? There is no right or wrong answer to this but IMO keep it relevant.

Of course if there is a minute applause/silence I will respect it as he was a wonderful man but I just think its not needed at a Scottish football match.

[Purehibee_MYB]

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

People plead guilty to all sorts of things under oppressive regimes. Check out the show trials under Hitler and Stalin, never mind various tin pot South American dictators.

In the most evil of circumstances he managed to walk the best possible line between resistance and acceptance. Just a few minutes listening to his views gives you to understand that if there had been any other meaningful way to end the discrimination, violence, oppression and institutionalised racism in South Africa then he would have taken it. He confronted a regime which tortured and murdered systemically - and won. What's more he didn't just defeat it, he ended up co-opting a lot of it and drawing former oppressors into becoming co-agents of change. His achievement is monumental.

More than that - much, much more than that - he conducted himself with dignity, honesty and integrity during his captivity and then in his release such that he was able to rally both whites and non-whites to the new South Africa. If his country lionises him why shouldn't we? If the white captain of the Springboks can idolise him why can't we? As someone else has written, he shows the path we all should want to walk while Mugabe in Zimbabwe shows the path we all too often walk.

If all our political leaders were like him we would live in a much better world. What other leader had or has that honesty, unselfishness, dedication and natural warmth? The Middle East aches for a figure like him.

Oh and no to anything at the football. There are already too many of the public grief merchants attaching themselves to the latest opportunity for a public lovey-in. He may be the greatest man to have ever lived, best let his story speak for itself.

Great post mate. Couldn't have put it better myself and agree with every word.

[Newry Hibs]

Would you have the same opinion of someone like Churchill? He ordered bombs to be dropped indiscriminately, and killed many civilians at the same time.

The comparison to Ireland is laughable, and makes you look like a fool. Look at his achievements after release, and becoming president. If he was a mere terrorist, he would have used that to get revenge. He didn't. He was one of the good ones.

I'm not sure if a Scottish football game is the place to commemorate him though.

There are a lot of articles about Churchill and how wasn't such a great leader in WWI and other articles criticising his various campaigns before WWII.

[blackpoolhibs]

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

Of course it does, but in our little tin pot country, where EVERY political decision is taken and scrutinised to buggery by every minority looking for an angle.

Is it wise to give them more ammunition, especially when we are trying to rid politics, bigotry and racism out of the sport?

[One Day Soon]

Of course it does, but in our little tin pot country, where EVERY political decision is taken and scrutinised to buggery by every minority looking for an angle.

Is it wise to give them more ammunition, especially when we are trying to rid politics, bigotry and racism out of the sport?

I'm not trying to be contrary or difficult but I genuinely don't understand the point you are making with your reply.

[Newry Hibs]

For me he was a giant amongst men, he fought and won and forgave. He managed to get the oppressors to embrace change. He became president when at the age 75 and continued to make South Africa a equal country right through to his death. He is Amanda that changed the world and was respected throughout. I sincerely hope that Hibs and Scottish football show respect to him.

If only there were more people like Amanda in the world.

[Thestylishkid]

While I'm sure that in the past these minutes silences were symbolic of unity, love and were no doubt a reminder that it is "just a game", these days they seem to strike me as petty points scoring more than anything else. Hearts fans love it when Hibs fans disrespect a minutes silence and vice versa as it gives them/us ammunition in the mud slinging match. Let's not even get started on Celtic/Rangers!

I think that people who would like somewhere to go to pay respect to ANYONE (widely known or not) have plenty of places to go if they wish to do so. A game of football doesn't really seem very appropriate for that to me, you know?

Furthermore, I'd argue that most people during these minute silences are purely focussing on actually staying quiet rather than reflecting. I'd imagine that vigils will be held for people to remember Mandela all over the world. It would seem much more sensible to pay respects that way and would probably be more rewarding to the person attending as there's no other business at hand.

Just my thoughts. I know most of us have never disrespected a minutes silence in our lives and I'm not defending people who do. I'm just saying that it seems like a wholly inappropriate place to remember people?!

[Scouse Hibee]

For me regardless of who it is for, the whole minutes respect thing lost all meaning when it was changed from silence to applause. That coupled with the fact that the show of mass respect in this manner has become far too regular an occurence leaves it mostly meaningless to me.

[Johnny Clash]

Misleading nonsense.

MK was founded to channel what Mandela warned would be inevitable violence due to rising hostility to apartheid laws.

Their aim was always maximum pressure and damage to the government with minimal casualties. Governement buildings, power stations, military bases etc were targeted when they were empty. The Johannesburg station bombing mentioned earlier, which was never proven to be linked to Mandela, led to 1 death. The ANC had repeatedly tried to protest peacefully: workers strikes, marches, sit ins etc but were met with violence and brutality at almost every turn.


Couldn't agree more. The ANC tried everything to peacefully resist apartheid only to see the brutal response of the apartheid regime wipe out entire families.

Indiscriminate massacres saw the slaughter of men, women and children and the widespread torture of the likes of trade union activists. I've met quite a few torture victims of that regime and attended a couple of funerals in Johannesburg during apartheid which has helped me understand things a bit better. Sure, I left Leithy knowing apartheid was wrong but I was soon seeing the brutality with my own eyes.

All these autrocities are now well documented as a result of the Mandela inspired 'truth and reconciliation' forums. Apartheid agents eventually admitted to state sponsored acts of brutality and terror which is why, in 2013 it's very rare to come across people ignorant enough to call Nelson Mandela a 'terrorist'.

Presumably, using their twisted logic, the French Resistance, who fought against the Nazis were also 'terrorists' because they too resorted to armed struggle to fight against oppression?

Of course every support will have different opinions within it and if people voice their disapproval tomorrow then that's up to them. After all, Nelson Mandela was famous for standing up for his principles. In fact, he spent 27 years in jail for his ideals.

[--------]

If only there were more people like Amanda in the world.


Can we have a minutes applause for her some time soon? :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

By calling him a 'terrorist' you are making a mockery of the word and denying it of all meaning.

He's probably the most unifying figure of the twentieth century, and probably preceding centuries too, and deserves the worlds utmost respect.

On the other hand, I dont see any need to hold a minutes applause tomorrow. The whole exercise of remembering dead people in the context of a football stadium has started to become a bit 'forced'. I'll raise a glass to him this evening instead.

[One Day Soon]

This is EXACTLY the sort of discussion where you need Liverpool Hibs. Whatever happened to him?

[Phil D. Rolls]

It must be of great regret to those that were battling the evil of Apartheid that they didn't have the benefit of your insight into such matters.

If there's a minute's applause tomorrow don't clap and no doubt you'll be in good company with any other pure bred pacifists (or racists pretending to be pure bred pacifists I suppose) and other such conscientious objectors.

What if you don't agree with the minutes applause, but supported Mandela - are you a racist, or a fascist, or what?


For me Nelson Mandela was one of the most influential figures in the last 100 years - if you don't want to pay respects then don't clap.

There's a non judgemental answer. Or, if you want to mark someone's death, then why not do it in an appropriate setting?

[joe breezy]

the only Mandela who deserves a round of applause at ER is Spike Mandela.

I don't agree that we should applaud leaders from other countries when they die.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There are a lot of articles about Churchill and how wasn't such a great leader in WWI and other articles criticising his various campaigns before WWII.

Churchill was a soldier in WW1.


For me he was a giant amongst men, he fought and won and forgave. He managed to get the oppressors to embrace change. He became president when at the age 75 and continued to make South Africa a equal country right through to his death. He is Amanda that changed the world and was respected throughout. I sincerely hope that Hibs and Scottish football show respect to him.

Why start now? That's enough cliches - ed.

[joe breezy]

By calling him a 'terrorist' you are making a mockery of the word and denying it of all meaning.

He's probably the most unifying figure of the twentieth century, and probably preceding centuries too, and deserves the worlds utmost respect.

On the other hand, I dont see any need to hold a minutes applause tomorrow. The whole exercise of remembering dead people in the context of a football stadium has started to become a bit 'forced'. I'll raise a glass to him this evening instead.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist who went on to pursue a path of peace.

[GreenPJ]

Of course it does, but in our little tin pot country, where EVERY political decision is taken and scrutinised to buggery by every minority looking for an angle.

Is it wise to give them more ammunition, especially when we are trying to rid politics, bigotry and racism out of the sport?

Is he not being recognised in England, Australia at the cricket, no doubt some mention at the WC draw and Blatter has already confirmed that there will be respect at the next round of all international matches.

Whether you agree with his greatness or recognising his death its clear that he has impacted the world and countries around the world are looking to pay respect in various ways, regardless of politics.

[weonlywon6-2]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?


A very strong statement to make and i was wondering how long it would take before this was brought up

[Spike Mandela]

the only Mandela who deserves a round of applause at ER is Spike Mandela.

.

:top marks At last some sense on this thread.:greengrin

[--------]

Churchill was a soldier in WW1.


No, he was First Lord of the Admiralty and directly responsible for the mess at the Dardanelles.

Then he resigned, and became a soldier for a VERY short time (commander of the 6th battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers), then he went back into government as Minister for Munitions and Secretary of State for Air.

He wasn't without serious faults, but there's little doubt he was the reason Britain survived the crisis of 1940 and continued to fight the Nazis until the Soviet Union came in in 1941. He was also the main reason the USA was such a friendly neutral towards us during that period - without Lend-Lease and the support of FDR we would have been very hard pressed to stay in the war.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No, he was First Lord of the Admiralty and directly responsible for the mess at the Dardanelles.

Then he resigned, and became a soldier for a VERY short time (commander of the 6th battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers), then he went back into government as Minister for Munitions and Secretary of State for Air.

He wasn't without serious faults, but there's little doubt he was the reason Britain survived the crisis of 1940 and continued to fight the Nazis until the Soviet Union came in in 1941. He was also the main reason the USA was such a friendly neutral towards us during that period - without Lend-Lease and the support of FDR we would have been very hard pressed to stay in the war.

Happy to stand corrected. He was a mad ******* though?

[One Day Soon]

Happy to stand corrected. He was a mad ******* though?

Churchill was more of a magnificent ******* I'd say.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Happy to stand corrected. He was a mad ******* though?

Oh yes! ;-)

[GreenPJ]

There's a non judgemental answer. Or, if you want to mark someone's death, then why not do it in an appropriate setting?

Eh, ask the SPFL or Hibs why they are doing it then. It will happen or it won't because the authority (Hibs or the SPFL) will determine so, if it happens then you have the choice to participate or not - nothing judgemental in that.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm not trying to be contrary or difficult but I genuinely don't understand the point you are making with your reply.

The question being asked is should Mandela get a minutes silence or applause at the games in Scotland tomorrow?

What i'm saying is if he has one, it then opens the gates for the likes of Gerry Adams to get one when he dies.

I'm not saying they are the same, but you can bet your last penny others will and we know where too.

As filled rolls said much earlier, who is an innocent killer, and an innocent victim?

We all know giving this man a minutes silence/applause opens up a can of worms, one we don't need in my opinion.

[--------]

Happy to stand corrected. He was a mad ******* though?


Churchill was more of a magnificent ******* I'd say.


He was just about the only British politician who consistently opposed the appeasement policies of the governments of the 1930's, the only one who read Hitler correctly and opposed him.

For that he deserved credit, as he did for his war leadership, but there were a lot of things he did which were controversial in the extreme. I would have been very uncomfortable if when he died I had been in a position where I had had to make a significant contribution to a public memorial service for him.

I've no problem with the idea of people publicly paying tribute to Mandela, but a football match isn't the place, in my opinion. I go to football matches to watch football, not to participate in a political act of support for someone about whom I may or may not have serious doubts.

If people want to pay tribute, fine, but why not at an event dedicated to that purpose?

Or would actually going to a Nelson Mandela Memorial Ceremony be too much trouble? :wink:

[SaulGoodman]

Eh, ask the SPFL or Hibs why they are doing it then. It will happen or it won't because the authority (Hibs or the SPFL) will determine so, if it happens then you have the choice to participate or not - nothing judgemental in that.

He said it was a non-judgmental answer :wink:

[Alfred E Newman]

More or less agree as where do we draw the line?

My belief is that if there is a significant Scottish or UK tradegy or if someone with real significance to the club, Scottish football, Scotland or the UK in general then maybe a tribute required.

Also, serious international tragic events should maybe be looked at but then how do we categorise what is and what isn't "big" enough to warrant a tribute at a football match.

There is no doubt last weeks helicopter accident was a tragedy for all concerned but whether it was deserving of a minutes silence is another thing. If only one person had died in the accident it would have been just as big a tragedy for their family yet there would have been no silence. The 3 teenagers who were killed in that horrific accident at Dunbar was another example . The lorry driver that died in yesterday's storm is another.
As someone has already said , we could just about find a reason to have one every week.

[One Day Soon]

He was just about the only British politician who consistently opposed the appeasement policies of the governments of the 1930's, the only one who read Hitler correctly and opposed him.

For that he deserved credit, as he did for his war leadership, but there were a lot of things he did which were controversial in the extreme. I would have been very uncomfortable if when he died I had been in a position where I had had to make a significant contribution to a public memorial service for him.

I've no problem with the idea of people publicly paying tribute to Mandela, but a football match isn't the place, in my opinion. I go to football matches to watch football, not to participate in a political act of support for someone about whom I may or may not have serious doubts.

If people want to pay tribute, fine, but why not at an event dedicated to that purpose?

Or would actually going to a Nelson Mandela Memorial Ceremony be too much trouble? :wink:


Wouldn't have been uncomfortable for me. Weighing up the pros with the cons I find the defeat of Naziism trumps all else, but each to their own.

Agree to an extent with taking the political stuff out of football. Commemorations should largely be for those associated with either team on the day. On the other hand the clenched fist salute by black Olympians was right and just and did bring politics into sport so there's no unambiguous rulebook to go by. Organising something that is political in nature which requires or expects the co-opted participation of all present is dubious for me. Plenty other contexts to celebrate the achievements of Mandela.

Don't know what we do about Amanda though...

[--------]

Wouldn't have been uncomfortable for me. Weighing up the pros with the cons I find the defeat of Naziism trumps all else, but each to their own.

Agree to an extent with taking the political stuff out of football. Commemorations should largely be for those associated with either team on the day. On the other hand the clenched fist salute by black Olympians was right and just and did bring politics into sport so there's no unambiguous rulebook to go by. Organising something that is political in nature which requires or expects the co-opted participation of all present is dubious for me. Plenty other contexts to celebrate the achievements of Mandela.

Don't know what we do about Amanda though...


Actually, come to think about it, you're probably right. He was the Prime Minister of Great Britain through the worst crisis of the 20th century, and as such a public commemoration on the scale afforded him was entirely appropriate.

On the whole I would say I have a great deal of respect for Mandela - again with certain reservations - but I really think that these public demonstrations have become tedious and almost farcical.

I mean, a minute's silence has a real dignity about it if it's maintained properly, but a round of applause?

"And now, a BIG HAND for the late great Who's-it's-just-died"?

(I 'm REALLY glad no one asked me to say a few words about Thatcher, though!)

[God Petrie]

This recreational grief is really tiresome and I find it crass and shallow to be honest.

[steakbake]

What i'm saying is if he has one, it then opens the gates for the likes of Gerry Adams to get one when he dies.


Deary me...

A minute's applause for Gerry Adams?

[Andy74]

Deary me...

He has a point though. Fighting against an oppressive and aggressive regime is the same whether that opression was based on colour, religion, geography or whatever.

It's a very old point but how we look at people in this regard depends very much on our own closeness to it or our own politics.

It's inspiring that people can come through that and work in a more peaceful and constructive way but there are plenty of examples of that as Blackpool not so subtely illustrated!

I'm sure if you turn the clock back and discussed this in another part of the world you would have had much the same sort of deary me answer about Mandela.

[blackpoolhibs]

Deary me...

Ignore it if you like, but i know those idiots from the west WILL compare the two, and there will come a time when that can of worms i talk about will explode.

Yes as you say, deary me.

[steakbake]

It's the measure of peace and reconciliation that I think marks Mandela out as being one of the defining figures of the 20th Century (and some of the 21st). It's not who he was fighting against but the way he pursued the peace when the opportunity came for him to lead.

So far, the only folk I've seen bandying the words like "terrorist" around are fringe rightist contrarians and the sort of people who have used Mandela's death to defend or attack Margaret Thatcher's memory.

Aside from that - I think minute applauses and silences are a little bit hackneyed. You could, as one poster noted, have a minute silence/applause any weekend and never run out of causes.

Somehow, I doubt there'll be one in the SPFL games, but in a context like English football where there is a very prominent and active anti-racism campaign as well as the far more multicultural society south of the border, then I suspect the reasons for there being a silence are more to do with Mandela as a totem for community cohesion than anything else.

[GreenPJ]

Ignore it if you like, but i know those idiots from the west WILL compare the two, and there will come a time when that can of worms i talk about will explode.

Yes as you say, deary me.

When Gerry Adams dies it won't make the front page headlines of newspapers in Italy, Japan, India, Australia.

[DaveF]

When Gerry Adams dies it won't make the front page headlines of newspapers in Italy, Japan, India, Australia.

I see that India had declared 5 days of public mourning to mark Mandela's death. 5 days? Seems a tad over the top to me, unless he had an extremely close bond to India?

[steakbake]

When Gerry Adams dies it won't make the front page headlines of newspapers in Italy, Japan, India, Australia.

Nope, it will be a side note.

Adams isn't widely celebrated as being a figure of peace and reconciliation except amongst people who would support him anyway.

If CFC want to embarrass themselves with a minute's applause for Gerry Adams when he goes, then let them get on with it. Somehow, I very much doubt that would happen at all.

[Andy74]

When Gerry Adams dies it won't make the front page headlines of newspapers in Italy, Japan, India, Australia.

That's the case but Adams has primarily been involved in a more local problem!

Mandela is obviously a good and inspiring human being these days but, as witnessed in the last 24 hours with everyone, partuculalry famous folk, clamouring to comment on Twitter and Facebook I think it's more about celebrity and people who have attached to his cause more than it is the nuts and bolts of his politics and his methods.

[blackpoolhibs]

When Gerry Adams dies it won't make the front page headlines of newspapers in Italy, Japan, India, Australia.

I don't for one minute think it will, but what about Scotland?

[Andy74]

Nope, it will be a side note.

Adams isn't widely celebrated as being a figure of peace and reconciliation except amongst people who would support him anyway.

Besides, if CFC want to embarrass themselves with a minute's applause for Gerry Adams when he goes, then let them get on with it. Somehow, I very much doubt that would happen at all.

Why link Adams and CFC? You are making a judgment that isn't part of the discussion really. And why would anyone be embarassing themselves? Again that's your judgement of the situation.

[GreenPJ]

I see that India had declared 5 days of public mourning to mark Mandela's death. 5 days? Seems a tad over the top to me, unless he had an extremely close bond to India?

Gandhi and Mandella had a lot in common in terms of their fight for justice and their willingness to forgive.

[steakbake]

I don't for one minute think it will, but what about Scotland?

I don't know - Irish politics isn't generally followed in the media in Scotland. Granted, you have a handful of enthusiasts in the West and further beyond it must be said, but no - I don't agree that Adam's death would lead to some kind of national tinderbox situation where we're collectively searching our consciences on how to celebrate or not his passing...

[lapsedhibee]

This recreational grief is really tiresome and I find it crass and shallow to be honest.

Top phrase. :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25263906


The Scottish Professional Football League has recommended that a minute's applause be held before weekend matches as a mark of respect to Nelson Mandela.

[blackpoolhibs]

Why link Adams and CFC? You are making a judgment that isn't part of the discussion really. And why would anyone be embarassing themselves? Again that's your judgement of the situation.

Why not, they have linked Bonnie prince charlie and Bobby Sands only a week or two ago? They WILL compare the two of them, i'd put money on it.

[steakbake]

Why link Adams and CFC? You are making a judgment that isn't part of the discussion really. And why would anyone be embarassing themselves? Again that's your judgement of the situation.

A fair point. I retract it, but it is implicit in what is being said. "Those in the west" and some kind of worry about a minute's silence...?

[SanFranHibs]

This is EXACTLY the sort of discussion where you need Liverpool Hibs. Whatever happened to him?

for Man U.

I thought minutes silences or applause at sports events were for people connected and loved by their respective clubs or national 'events' like Rememberance Day etc, tradgedy's linked to a particular country.

People can do what they want regarding Nelson Mandela. I wont be participating but I wont lose any sleep if others do.

[bigwheel]

Deary me...

A minute's applause for Gerry Adams?

Agreed…some of the comparisons being made here are frankly ridiculous.

Mandela is one of the most unifying and respected people that has ever lived in our time. His fight was for fairness and equality, not for power or through hate. hHe created a world wide impact as he raised South Africa from the depths of division without retribution. He shines like a beacon compared to all others mentioned here.

[GreenPJ]

That's the case but Adams has primarily been involved in a more local problem!

Mandela is obviously a good and inspiring human being these days but, as witnessed in the last 24 hours with everyone, partuculalry famous folk, clamouring to comment on Twitter and Facebook I think it's more about celebrity and people who have attached to his cause more than it is the nuts and bolts of his politics and his methods.

I think there is more than celebrities looking to commemorate or celebrate his life, look at the pictures on the bbc website.

As for the danger that this just opens up a can of worms and what happens when a Gerry Adams dies, then we cross that bridge when we come to it but that is not a reason not to commemorate a global figure who has clearly had an impact on millions and millions of people around the world.

[lucky]

If only there were more people like Amanda in the world.

Bloody phone writes what it wants. I've deleted the post because I don't want the usual nonsense on thread like this when there is a typo

[blackpoolhibs]

I think there is more than celebrities looking to commemorate or celebrate his life, look at the pictures on the bbc website.

As for the danger that this just opens up a can of worms and what happens when a Gerry Adams dies, then we cross that bridge when we come to it but that is not a reason not to commemorate a global figure who has clearly had an impact on millions and millions of people around the world.

There's no reason to shut that gate now, the horse bolted a long time ago.

[GreenPJ]

There's no reason to shut that gate now, the horse bolted a long time ago.

Any by the very nature we don't have mins applause or silence every week then there is some semblance of priority being applied.

[Sudds_1]

I wouldnt advise the SFA to reward Mandela with a minutes silence or applause, he is a convicted terrorist, who was behind those who planted bombs in public places and killed innocent people.

In the future will we have to do the same for the IRA peace keepers, who are trying to bring peace to Ireland?

yep....one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Keep politics out of football. Makes it the line clear and simple. Those wishing to have plenty opportunity to show their respects.

[IWasThere2016]

The question being asked is should Mandela get a minutes silence or applause at the games in Scotland tomorrow?

What i'm saying is if he has one, it then opens the gates for the likes of Gerry Adams to get one when he dies.

I'm not saying they are the same, but you can bet your last penny others will and we know where too.

As filled rolls said much earlier, who is an innocent killer, and an innocent victim?

We all know giving this man a minutes silence/applause opens up a can of worms, one we don't need in my opinion.

This. Re the Adams comparison, I sincerely doubt today that the League (or Cetlc the club) would suggest such for the man, but you can be sure the Celtc support would mark the occasion.

[Dashing Bob S]

Have a Mandela memorial celebration in every square in every city in the country, so people can voluntarily attend.

But keep ALL that sort of stuff, and flags and national anthems etc away from football stadiums. It's always subject to hijack by those with specific agendas, from government officials to politically marginal groups to media interests, and worse, the recreational, grief, as has been said, has become utterly crass and boring- the insincere, tedious cousin of the inappropriate nasty joke about the deceased.

[Bishop Hibee]

I boycotted SA goods and went on anti-apartheid demos back in the day and celebrated the release of Mandela. A great man.

There is however no place for a minutes silence or applause at football games for deaths such as this. As it will probably happen I will applaud.

[monktonharp]

I thought FIFA/EUFA/SPFL/SFA were trying to keep politics away from football?politics? what has an appreciation of the life of one of humanity's altime greats, to do with politics?

[blackpoolhibs]

Any by the very nature we don't have mins applause or silence every week then there is some semblance of priority being applied.

FFS we can't even have them for those who died in the wars, where is the semblance of priority there?

[IWasThere2016]

Have a Mandela memorial celebration in every square in every city in the country, so people can voluntarily attend.

But keep ALL that sort of stuff, and flags and national anthems etc away from football stadiums. It's always subject to hijack by those with specific agendas, from government officials to politically marginal groups to media interests, and worse, the recreational, grief, as has been said, has become utterly crass and boring- the insincere, tedious cousin of the inappropriate nasty joke about the deceased.


There is however no place for a minutes silence or applause at football games for deaths such as this.

:top marks

[Sudds_1]

politics? what has an appreciation of the life of one of humanity's altime greats, to do with politics?

everything. As Bob says those with agenda will use that to their own ends. No such thing a simple death of a Head of State. Nowt to do with football. Keep it well away.

[blackpoolhibs]

Have a Mandela memorial celebration in every square in every city in the country, so people can voluntarily attend.

But keep ALL that sort of stuff, and flags and national anthems etc away from football stadiums. It's always subject to hijack by those with specific agendas, from government officials to politically marginal groups to media interests, and worse, the recreational, grief, as has been said, has become utterly crass and boring- the insincere, tedious cousin of the inappropriate nasty joke about the deceased.


:agree:

[TheReg!]

WTF had Mandela got to do with the UK, Scotland, Football and most of all Hibernian??? That's right f@&k all! There is no need for a minute anything this weekend. Politics and Football do not mix!
I have nothing against NM and hope he RIP.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Eh, ask the SPFL or Hibs why they are doing it then. It will happen or it won't because the authority (Hibs or the SPFL) will determine so, if it happens then you have the choice to participate or not - nothing judgemental in that.

Sorry mate, badly written, I wasn't being sarcastic. I agree with your suggestion, but also wanted to point out there's an alternative for balance.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Churchill was more of a magnificent ******* I'd say.

I'm sure he would agree if he were here today.


He was just about the only British politician who consistently opposed the appeasement policies of the governments of the 1930's, the only one who read Hitler correctly and opposed him.

For that he deserved credit, as he did for his war leadership, but there were a lot of things he did which were controversial in the extreme. I would have been very uncomfortable if when he died I had been in a position where I had had to make a significant contribution to a public memorial service for him.

I've no problem with the idea of people publicly paying tribute to Mandela, but a football match isn't the place, in my opinion. I go to football matches to watch football, not to participate in a political act of support for someone about whom I may or may not have serious doubts.

If people want to pay tribute, fine, but why not at an event dedicated to that purpose?

Or would actually going to a Nelson Mandela Memorial Ceremony be too much trouble? :wink:

Re. Churchill, I say he was mad with all due respect. There is a good body of evidence that points to life long bi- polar disorder. His manic tendency came to the fore at just the right time, ie when we needed someone that would fight on when all seemed lost. Any sane person would have sued for peace.


This recreational grief is really tiresome and I find it crass and shallow to be honest.

:top marks Well said.

[lamtarra]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;3829619]What if you don't agree with the minutes applause, but supported Mandela - are you a racist, or a fascist, or what?


If you don't agree with the minute's applause but supported Mandela then you are objecting for a reason of conscience known to yourself. You would fall into the category of conscientious objector presumably. You may be anti applause or pro silence or something else which precludes applause, but not support, for Mandela. Only you will know.

[Hibercelona]

I don't think there should be a minutes applause at the football. I do however think that there should be a world wide minute silence of some sort planned. And those who wish to take part in it can.

As others have said. If one man can achieve such greatness, what would this world achieve if we all strived for such greatness?

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;3829619]What if you don't agree with the minutes applause, but supported Mandela - are you a racist, or a fascist, or what?


If you don't agree with the minute's applause but supported Mandela then you are objecting for a reason of conscience known to yourself. You would fall into the category of conscientious objector presumably. You may be anti applause or pro silence or something else which precludes applause, but not support, for Mandela. Only you will know.

Right, glad that's cleared up. :aok:

[easty]

I do however think that there should be a world wide minute silence of some sort planned. And those who wish to take part in it can.

If they plan a worldwide silence then I hope they do it at a time that suits my sleeping habits. I would hate to snore through the silence and be labelled a Mandela hating racist...

[hibs4life]

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

People plead guilty to all sorts of things under oppressive regimes. Check out the show trials under Hitler and Stalin, never mind various tin pot South American dictators.

In the most evil of circumstances he managed to walk the best possible line between resistance and acceptance. Just a few minutes listening to his views gives you to understand that if there had been any other meaningful way to end the discrimination, violence, oppression and institutionalised racism in South Africa then he would have taken it. He confronted a regime which tortured and murdered systemically - and won. What's more he didn't just defeat it, he ended up co-opting a lot of it and drawing former oppressors into becoming co-agents of change. His achievement is monumental.

More than that - much, much more than that - he conducted himself with dignity, honesty and integrity during his captivity and then in his release such that he was able to rally both whites and non-whites to the new South Africa. If his country lionises him why shouldn't we? If the white captain of the Springboks can idolise him why can't we? As someone else has written, he shows the path we all should want to walk while Mugabe in Zimbabwe shows the path we all too often walk.

If all our political leaders were like him we would live in a much better world. What other leader had or has that honesty, unselfishness, dedication and natural warmth? The Middle East aches for a figure like him.

Oh and no to anything at the football. There are already too many of the public grief merchants attaching themselves to the latest opportunity for a public lovey-in. He may be the greatest man to have ever lived, best let his story speak for itself.

Nice response to a few posts that seem to miss the point of why Mandela was a giant of the last century and will be remembered as a significant historical figure. Oh, and I also agree that, whilst happy to join in a minutes applause, not sure that Scottish football needs to get involved in a tribute to the great man...

[Eternal Hibbie]

One Day Soon : -

Superb post, agree with every word.

Thank you. :thumbup:

[Golden Bear]

Nice response to a few posts that seem to miss the point of why Mandela was a giant of the last century and will be remembered as a significant historical figure. Oh, and I also agree that, whilst happy to join in a minutes applause, not sure that Scottish football needs to get involved in a tribute to the great man...

That's the way I see it.

Mandela's legacy and achievements will be forever immortalized however I feel that the Media are going over the top with their coverage of the great man's death.

[Keith_M]

I'm sorry but it's a No from me.


People are perfectly entitled to pay their respects but it has nothing to do with Hibs or football in general. We really need to restrict Minute's Silences to Club or Football related events.

[The_Sauz]

Even though I had a lot of respect & time for Nelson Mandela, I think a more fitting "1 Minute Applause" should go to last week's Tynecastle Massacre :agree:

[Moon unit]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

Jeez!...this man was one of the most significant human beings that we have had the privalige to share this planet with!...without his peaceful efforts and sacrifices,racism and oppression would be even more rife!...if ever a person deserves to be celebrated with a minutes applause, this is the man!..

[oramhibee]

The FA and SPFL have both confirmed that every club will have a minutes applause for Nelson Mandela

[Malthibby]

Nice response to a few posts that seem to miss the point of why Mandela was a giant of the last century and will be remembered as a significant historical figure. Oh, and I also agree that, whilst happy to join in a minutes applause, not sure that Scottish football needs to get involved in a tribute to the great man...

What he said.:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

The French Resistance were terrorists.

I don't think we need an applause though.

[Eyrie]

I'm concerned that it's a minute's applause that has been requested. Wasn't that introduced to drown out the idiots that wouldn't respect a minute's silence?

I would have thought that everyone would be willing to respect a silence for Nelson Mandela for the way in which he led South Africa in the early post-apartheid days. Whether a football match is an appropriate venue is another matter.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm concerned that it's a minute's applause that has been requested. Wasn't that introduced to drown out the idiots that wouldn't respect a minute's silence?

I would have thought that everyone would be willing to respect a silence for Nelson Mandela for the way in which he led South Africa in the early post-apartheid days. Whether a football match is an appropriate venue is another matter.

Seems David Cameron has changed his opinion in the last 30 years, for one.

Dunno how Eugene Terreblanches followers would feel though.

[Saorsa]

The FA and SPFL have both confirmed that every club will have a minutes applause for Nelson Mandela
The SPFL has recommended to member clubs that a minute of applause be held at all fixtures this weekend to mark respect for, and celebrate the life of, Nelson Mandela.Does recommend mean really mean you will do it?

I've said it already, personally I think this silence/applause stuff is getting out of hand. This has nothing tae do with fitba so why are they getting involved again and why are they (the people who run fitba) continually involving themselves with these things, complete nonsense IMO.

Nothing tae do with disliking Mandela, nothing tae do with being racist and nothing tae do with fitba.

[Eyrie]

Seems David Cameron has changed his opinion in the last 30 years, for one.

Dunno how Eugene Terreblanches followers would feel though.

I would think that many people have different views on the world today compared to those which they held thirty years ago. After all, they have thirty years more experience and fresh facts to consider.

[Pete]

Is this the guy who built that tower block in Peckham?

[jdships]

I'm sorry but it's a No from me.


People are perfectly entitled to pay their respects but it has nothing to do with Hibs or football in general. We really need to restrict Minute's Silences to Club or Football related events.

AGREE TOTALLY :thumbsup:

[Hibbyradge]

Ok we're having a minute's applause.

Surely we can donate a minute of our lives respectfully.

[God Petrie]

FREE NELSON MANDELA. One careful owner. Pick up only.

[Golden Bear]

Is this the guy who built that tower block in Peckham?

Nah, you're getting mixed up. That was surely Del Boy.

[Alfred E Newman]

Does recommend mean really mean you will do it?

I've said it already, personally I think this silence/applause stuff is getting out of hand. This has nothing tae do with fitba so why are they getting involved again and why are they (the people who run fitba) continually involving themselves with these things, complete nonsense IMO.

Nothing tae do with disliking Mandela, nothing tae do with being racist and nothing tae do with fitba.

I could not agree more and as such I will not be participating in any applause tomorrow .

[NAE NOOKIE]

We do seem to have a lot more of these minutes applause / silence days at the football than we used to. Perhaps the meaning or impact has become diluted somewhat. From that point of view I can see why some folk might want Hibs to give this one a miss.

But from my point of view thats where the argument begins ends for the no minutes applause folk. There is no discussion to be had in my opinion ( and I realize it is only my opinion ) as to whether or not the gentleman in question is worthy of a show of respect.

I am no expert on South African history. If NM was party to a bombing incident where civilian casualties were inevitable then that was a mistake. From what I have seen of the man I'm pretty sure he would have, in hindsight, realised that too and regretted it. But to my mind the one man's freedom fighter is another mans terrorist theory doesnt hold water here.

There are only two scenarios that I can think of where resorting to the bomb and bullet can be justified:

1 ) Where a people are excluded from access to the democtatic process of a country because of their colour, religion or ethnicity.

2 ) Where a minority people have access to the democratic process, but the nature of that process means that their views and needs can never be satisfied because the majority will always out vote them. And even then only when the net result of such a democratic process is that the people voted into power see the result of such a vote as giving them a mandate to persecute or exclude the minority in question. That is not and never should be the meaning or purpose of democracy.

In Mandela's case the first of these scenarios certainly applies. The fact that when he did emerge victorious after spending the best years of his life imprisoned by his oppressors and in that time seeing many of his comrades and friends killed by them, he did everything he could to ensure that the second scenario was not applied to the white minority in South Africa is the measure of his greatness.

I would be more than happy to join in with a minutes applause for such a man. The fact that he lived in a country as far away from Scotland as its possible to get is utterly immaterial.

[joe breezy]

I'm disgusted that football teams in Scotland are doing this whilst teams like Hibs and Ross County did nothing for Remembrance Sunday

It's a slur on my grandparents generation and quite saddening

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm disgusted that football teams in Scotland are doing this whilst teams like Hibs and Ross County did nothing for Remembrance Sunday

It's a slur on my grandparents generation and quite saddening

Though I wont share your disgust if a minutes applause happens on Saturday I do share your anger that a minutes silence wasnt held for Remembrance Sunday. If a minutes silence is ever going to be held at the football, that is the time to do it.

[Andy74]

I'm disgusted that football teams in Scotland are doing this whilst teams like Hibs and Ross County did nothing for Remembrance Sunday

It's a slur on my grandparents generation and quite saddening

Steady on. A slur?

[judas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

Load of fish.

It'll give me an extra minute in the pub.

[judas]

:top marks The definitive post on this subject. He's simply too big and important a figure to be even sullied by discussion as to whether he should or shouldn't have a minutes applause/silence/group masturbation at a poxy Scottish football match.

Group masturbation.

Forget my last post. I"ll be there on time.

[Dashing Bob S]

Group masturbation.

Forget my last post. I"ll be there on time.

I thought you were a bit hasty!

[MGmick]

Maybe we need to start accepting death for what it is, and not be so hung up about making a show when people die - no matter how significant the person, or tragic the circumstances.

I doubt if there has been a minutes silence for the victims of the Clydebank Blitz.

That just about sums it up perfectly.

[jabis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/25262646

Wonder if the SPFL will follow suit?

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand he is obviously one of the most significant figures in modern world history but on the other he is a 95 year old South African man who died of illness, not in tragic circumstances, in South Africa where he has been most of his life. What does that have to do with the UK and our football?

I'd much rather a tribute was made to the Glasgow helicopter victims if anything.

freedom of edinburgh city,a giant of a man in the cause for equality,a childs right to an education,and most of all,to respect your fellow man.

just read the OP,so this may have already been mentioned.

[Sir David Gray]

I don't question how influential Nelson Mandela was throughout his life and how important his role was in bringing peace to South Africa. He will be remembered as one of the greatest world leaders of all time and as one of the most outstanding human beings of the 20th century. He is also someone who deserves the utmost respect for what he's done in his life.

However I don't believe a minute's applause should be held before a Scottish football game to mark the passing of a politician, unless that person happened to be the current Prime Minister of the UK dying whilst still in office.

Hibs didn't hold a minute's silence a few weeks ago to mark Remembrance Day so I think the idea of holding a minute's applause for Nelson Mandela tomorrow is ridiculous.

I didn't really agree with holding one last week either for the helicopter crash in Glasgow, although it did happen in Scotland so I can understand the reasons behind it a bit more.


For me regardless of who it is for, the whole minutes respect thing lost all meaning when it was changed from silence to applause. That coupled with the fact that the show of mass respect in this manner has become far too regular an occurence leaves it mostly meaningless to me.

Yep.

For me, minute's applauses are pathetic and mean absolutely nothing in my opinion.

They were only brought in to try and drown out any of the idiots who would attempt to interrupt a silence.

If a mark of respect is going to be held then the one and only way to do that is by holding a minute's silence.

[Andy74]

I don't question how influential Nelson Mandela was throughout his life and how important his role was in bringing peace to South Africa. He will be remembered as one of the greatest world leaders of all time and as one of the most outstanding human beings of the 20th century. He is also someone who deserves the utmost respect for what he's done in his life.

However I don't believe a minute's applause should be held before a Scottish football game to mark the passing of a politician, unless that person happened to be the current Prime Minister of the UK dying whilst still in office.

Hibs didn't hold a minute's silence a few weeks ago to mark Remembrance Day so I think the idea of holding a minute's applause for Nelson Mandela tomorrow is ridiculous.

I didn't really agree with holding one last week either for the helicopter crash in Glasgow, although it did happen in Scotland so I can understand the reasons behind it a bit more.



Yep.

For me, minute's applauses are pathetic and mean absolutely nothing in my opinion.

They were only brought in to try and drown out any of the idiots who would attempt to interrupt a silence.

If a mark of respect is going to be held then the one and only way to do that is by holding a minute's silence.

Strange. Why should it matter in what physical way you try and show respect?

[hibby6270]

No! Getting ridiculous with all these minutes silences and applauses. It disnae seem tae happen anywhere else, why does fitba always have tae be involved. Games on Remembrance Sunday should have one, other than that it should be for people with a significant place in fitba or by clubs for people significant tae them. This has nothing tae do with fitba and therefore nae need tae get involved IMO.

Agreed


I'm prefer not to have any of these sort of things. They don't do them at the cinema or Tesco. Not sure why football needs to be different.

Agreed


Don't agree with a minutes applause tomorrow if it happens.

Agreed


These minutes applauses and silences at football confuse me.

The helicopter one last week made sense, it was a tragedy that happened in Scotland. I remember we had one a few years back for the tsunami disaster but then we didn't for the typhoon in the Philipines a couple of weeks back, how was that decided? We had one after 9/11 but didn't after the Bali bombings, 2 terrorist attacks on foreign soil with multiple deaths so again who decided which one 'deserved' a minutes silence and which didn't.

It all seems very confused to me so i'd rather we didn't. I'm not saying for a minute Nelson Mandela isn't deserving of our respect but these things just seem a bit confusing to me.

Agreed


I'm certain there are lots of people who would like to pay their respects, but at a football game, where there may be a sizeable number who don't really care either way?

There are bound to be books of condolence at City Chambers and no doubt other events where people can rightly recognise Mandela and his life.

I'm just not convinced an SPL game is the right place at all.

Agreed


Said it before, if we had a tribute for every deserving cause, there would be one a week. It's a no from me.

Agreed


There shouldn't be a minutes silence/applause, I just cant see any reason for it.

Agreed


Would have to agree with this really. If we have minutes silence/applause for every significant figure the world has seen when they die then it loses the significance of actually doing it. As important as Mandela was to fighting oppression, we can't just have these commemorations all the time, it becomes ridiculous.

Agreed


WTF had Mandela got to do with the UK, Scotland, Football and most of all Hibernian??? That's right f@&k all! There is no need for a minute anything this weekend. Politics and Football do not mix!
I have nothing against NM and hope he RIP.

Entirely agree.


I'm sorry but it's a No from me.


People are perfectly entitled to pay their respects but it has nothing to do with Hibs or football in general. We really need to restrict Minute's Silences to Club or Football related events.

Agreed

[Jonnyboy]

Agreed

You're in a very agreeable mood tonight :wink:

[Saorsa]

Agreed:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::a gree::agree::agree::agree:

[Peevemor]

As I've posted a couple of times before, I think there should be a single minute of silence per year, possibly before the new year's day (or equivalent) fixtures. In this way each individual could have his or her own moment of reflection for those who have passed away during the previous year, be it friends, family, former players, world leaders - whoever.

Bump

[Andy74]

BBC Scotland just now. Future Celtic chap Michael Kelly led Glasgow to be virtually first city to see him as a freedom fighter not a terrorist. Interesting.

[lucky]

Interesting lots on here saying football and politics don't mix yet not many complaining about '' Hibs fans for Independence''. Or the ''Hibs Yes '' campaign. I'm not saying football and politics mix but this man is widely regarded as changing the world so It's appropriate that Hibernian mark his death.

[Andy74]

Interesting lots on here saying football and politics don't mix yet not many complaining about '' Hibs fans for Independence''. Or the ''Hibs Yes '' campaign. I'm not saying football and politics mix but this man is widely regarded as changing the world so It's appropriate that Hibernian mark his death.

I've never heard of either campaign!

[Saorsa]

Bump
As I've posted a couple of times before, I think there should be a single minute of silence per year, possibly before the new year's day (or equivalent) fixtures. In this way each individual could have his or her own moment of reflection for those who have passed away during the previous year, be it friends, family, former players, world leaders - whoever.Not sure why people cannae just do that in their own time at any time of the year, why does it need tae be public at all? I really have nae interest in this new fad of mass shows of grief, respect or whatever for every time some tom, dick or harry that dies particularly when most have had nae effect on my life in the slightest.

[Sir David Gray]

Strange. Why should it matter in what physical way you try and show respect?

I think a minute's silence is the most appropriate way to show respect for someone who has passed away.

A minute's applause is a manufactured occurrence which has only recently come into existence and, as far as I'm aware, is only ever seen at football grounds. I'd be interested to know if anyone knows if minute's applauses are held anywhere else.

Genuine question.

[Saorsa]

Interesting lots on here saying football and politics don't mix yet not many complaining about '' Hibs fans for Independence''. Or the ''Hibs Yes '' campaign. I'm not saying football and politics mix but this man is widely regarded as changing the world so It's appropriate that Hibernian mark his death.Which campaigns are these? Never heard of them.

Nae matter what the subject though you've always got tae get yer dig in about independence, I wonder (considering you signature) if you'd be so quick tae object tae a campaign called Hibs for the union or a Hibs better together campaign

[Andy74]

I think a minute's silence is the most appropriate way to show respect for someone who has passed away.

A minute's applause is a manufactured occurrence which has only recently come into existence and, as far as I'm aware, is only ever seen at football grounds. I'd be interested to know if anyone knows if minute's applauses are held anywhere else.

Genuine question.

Does it matter?

[Sir David Gray]

Does it matter?

In the grand scheme of things, it's not high up on my list of things that I sit and worry about, no.

However, you did ask me a question and I've answered it.

I don't like minute's applauses and think they should be done away with.

[hibby6270]

It must be of great regret to those that were battling the evil of Apartheid that they didn't have the benefit of your insight into such matters.

If there's a minute's applause tomorrow don't clap and no doubt you'll be in good company with any other pure bred pacifists (or racists pretending to be pure bred pacifists I suppose) and other such conscientious objectors.

Pure bred pacifist? - NO
Racist? - Definitely NO
Conscientious Objector? - YES

I for one see no point in taking part tomorrow Never a football issue in a million years imo

[JohnStephens91]

If a decision is made by the Club I will respect it and observe a silence/applause. There is no doubting that Nelson Mandela has had a profound impact on the nation of South Africa, the African Continent and also around the globe. The school I attended had many links to a school in South Africa and as such we were taught a lot about the politics of the country and Mandela himself, at no point were we told what he spent 27 years in jail for. I had to research it for myself, but it is a sham that we are given such a biased education on an issue.

Personally I have mixed views, what the ANC and the black population of South Africa wanted was of course to be treated like humans and not some kind of animal. I don't think you would find anyone, barring Eugene Terreblanche, the AWB and basically racists from all over the world who disagreed with the black population, and of course any deemed to be of 'colour', in their quest for the end to Apartheid. South Africa then became a pariah state and all the restrictions that followed hampered and worldwide South African goods were boycotted to impact on the economy of the country. This shows that governments around the world were against Apartheid and in a sizeable majority too.

However some of the ways in which Mandela instructed terrorist bombings to take place in public areas, for example Church Street which was 30 years ago and killed 6 innocent members of the public. In total, through his commands, Mandela is responsible for an estimated 130 deaths. Some bombings failed, the Pretoria Sterland Movie Complex springs to mind and only killed an ANC terrorist, but overall he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence and these obviously include the bombings which led to the deaths of men, women and children. Amnesty International even refused to take on his case as he refused to renounce violence and Amnesty themselves said: "the movement recorded that it could not give the name of 'Prisoner of Conscience' to anyone associated with violence, even though as in 'conventional warfare' a degree of restraint may be exercised." This is obviously what he was jailed for, rather than the colour of his skin.

When released though he did give many great lessons via his public appearances. Admittedly his time in government was shrouded with controversies such as buying a lot of military equipment (much of which South Africa did not need) when spending on healthcare, policing and education should have been prioritised, and in many respects the country is still paying for the errors of Mandela's government and of course the preceding Botha one too. For example Jacob Zuma, the current president, had a unprotected sex with a woman he knew was HIV positive and to prevent himself from catching it he showered afterwards. This is an example, albeit extreme, of how the governments of South Africa post-Apartheid (Mandela, Thabo Mbeki, and Zuma) have failed, and perhaps Mandela could have set the precedent.

I don't think anybody is denying his messages of unity and his social preachings which all hit home, it would be wrong to do so. Much in the same way it would be wrong to say that he was a messianic or a great leader due to his obvious faults. He received his second chance after his release from jail ( for the charges already mentioned) and barring his spell as South African President, he was an exceptional human being and devoted his life to peace and social justice. In terms of the end of Apartheid, Frederik Willem de Klerk was of much more importance than Mandela was and he is often overlooked which is a shame considering all the peace prizes he won.

I will honour Mandela for his social teachings by participating in a silence or applause, I won't be thinking about all the deaths he is responsible for or his mistakes in his Presidency of South Africa. He wasn't a messiah, he wasn't a saint, he had a clear message and spread it through non-violent mediums post-Apartheid. One thing he also certainly was not, was evil.

[lucky]

Which campaigns are these? Never heard of them.

Apparently they and the jags fans of similar views are joining up tomorrow to promote their views. It's on the PM board.

[hibby6270]

You're in a very agreeable mood tonight :wink:

Agreed LOL:aok::greengrin

[JohnStephens91]

Also apologies for the long post, hopefully it explains why some people are uneasy about celebrating Mandela's entire life and my decision on what to respect and honour about the man :aok:

[Peevemor]

Not sure why people cannae just do that in their own time at any time of the year, why does it need tae be public at all? I really have nae interest in this new fad of mass shows of grief, respect or whatever for every time some tom, dick or harry that dies particularly when most have had nae effect on my life in the slightest.

I agree but there are times when a minute's silence before a match is wholly appropriate (eg. the passing of a club legend). The problem is who decides. My suggestion of one per year would mean that a true mark of respect could be shown by all in attendance as the meaning would be personal to each individual.

[marinello59]

I think a minute's silence is the most appropriate way to show respect for someone who has passed away.

A minute's applause is a manufactured occurrence which has only recently come into existence and, as far as I'm aware, is only ever seen at football grounds. I'd be interested to know if anyone knows if minute's applauses are held anywhere else.

Genuine question.

It's no more manufactured than a minutes silence.
Do you remember the minutes silence at Easter Road when George Best passed away? It lasted about ten seconds before somebody starting clapping which was taken up by the whole ground. It was spontaneous and also very moving. What does it matter if it doesn't happen anywhere else?

[HibernianJK]

I saw a tweet last night that said.. 'imagine dying knowing that you had changed the world' and I sat and thought about it for a while thinking how incredible it must be to know you changed the course of the world forever.

The man should be honored, but not at a football match. Hibs fans must pass away all the time but no minutes silence/applause is given to them. Who devoted a lot more of their lives and who meant an awful lot more to hibs than Nelson Mandela.

[Sir David Gray]

I agree but there are times when a minute's silence before a match is wholly appropriate (eg. the passing of a club legend). The problem is who decides. My suggestion of one per year would mean that a true mark of respect could be shown by all in attendance as the meaning would be personal to each individual.

I wouldn't be for that.

I think the whole point of a minute's silence (or applause as the case may be) is that it is dedicated to one person in particular or a group of people who have lost their lives in a single incident.

I don't think that having one day per year set aside for marking the death of everyone who has passed away over the past 12 months is something that would work well.

[hibby6270]

The FA and SPFL have both confirmed that every club will have a minutes applause for Nelson Mandela

Doesn't mean everybody has to take part though.

[Liberal Hibby]

If a decision is made by the Club I will respect it and observe a silence/applause. There is no doubting that Nelson Mandela has had a profound impact on the nation of South Africa, the African Continent and also around the globe. The school I attended had many links to a school in South Africa and as such we were taught a lot about the politics of the country and Mandela himself, at no point were we told what he spent 27 years in jail for. I had to research it for myself, but it is a sham that we are given such a biased education on an issue.

Personally I have mixed views, what the ANC and the black population of South Africa wanted was of course to be treated like humans and not some kind of animal. I don't think you would find anyone, barring Eugene Terreblanche, the AWB and basically racists from all over the world who disagreed with the black population, and of course any deemed to be of 'colour', in their quest for the end to Apartheid. South Africa then became a pariah state and all the restrictions that followed hampered and worldwide South African goods were boycotted to impact on the economy of the country. This shows that governments around the world were against Apartheid and in a sizeable majority too.

However some of the ways in which Mandela instructed terrorist bombings to take place in public areas, for example Church Street which was 30 years ago and killed 6 innocent members of the public. In total, through his commands, Mandela is responsible for an estimated 130 deaths. Some bombings failed, the Pretoria Sterland Movie Complex springs to mind and only killed an ANC terrorist, but overall he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence and these obviously include the bombings which led to the deaths of men, women and children. Amnesty International even refused to take on his case as he refused to renounce violence and Amnesty themselves said: "the movement recorded that it could not give the name of 'Prisoner of Conscience' to anyone associated with violence, even though as in 'conventional warfare' a degree of restraint may be exercised." This is obviously what he was jailed for, rather than the colour of his skin.

When released though he did give many great lessons via his public appearances. Admittedly his time in government was shrouded with controversies such as buying a lot of military equipment (much of which South Africa did not need) when spending on healthcare, policing and education should have been prioritised, and in many respects the country is still paying for the errors of Mandela's government and of course the preceding Botha one too. For example Jacob Zuma, the current president, had a unprotected sex with a woman he knew was HIV positive and to prevent himself from catching it he showered afterwards. This is an example, albeit extreme, of how the governments of South Africa post-Apartheid (Mandela, Thabo Mbeki, and Zuma) have failed, and perhaps Mandela could have set the precedent.

I don't think anybody is denying his messages of unity and his social preachings which all hit home, it would be wrong to do so. Much in the same way it would be wrong to say that he was a messianic or a great leader due to his obvious faults. He received his second chance after his release from jail ( for the charges already mentioned) and barring his spell as South African President, he was an exceptional human being and devoted his life to peace and social justice. In terms of the end of Apartheid, Frederik Willem de Klerk was of much more importance than Mandela was and he is often overlooked which is a shame considering all the peace prizes he won.

I will honour Mandela for his social teachings by participating in a silence or applause, I won't be thinking about all the deaths he is responsible for or his mistakes in his Presidency of South Africa. He wasn't a messiah, he wasn't a saint, he had a clear message and spread it through non-violent mediums post-Apartheid. One thing he also certainly was not, was evil.

Mandela wasn't a terrorist and there is little evidence that he ever killed any one (or was responsible through commission for killing anyone). He was one of the movers behind Umkhonto we Sizwe - who were set up by the ANC to carry out acts of economic sabotage against the apartheid state having exhausted all political means over a 50 year period. Mandela said this at his trial in 1962:


I must deal immediately and at some length with the question of violence. Some of the things so far told to the Court are true and some are untrue. I do not, however, deny that I planned sabotage. I did not plan it in a spirit of recklessness, nor because I have any love of violence. I planned it as a result of a calm and sober assessment of the political situation that had arisen after many years of tyranny, exploitation, and oppression of my people by the Whites


The full speech is here: http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430

I suspect the examples of 'terrorism' you quote are trumped up by the then apartheid state.

[Sir David Gray]

It's no more manufactured than a minutes silence.
Do you remember the minutes silence at Easter Road when George Best passed away? It lasted about ten seconds before somebody starting clapping which was taken up by the whole ground. It was spontaneous and also very moving. What does it matter if it doesn't happen anywhere else?

I do remember it.

I just don't like them and I find a minute's silence to be a lot more poignant. As I've said already, the minute's applauses were only brought in because an increasing number of idiots were unable to stay silent for 60 seconds.

I don't think that's a good enough reason to stop them.

[hibby6270]

AGREE TOTALLY :thumbsup:

Glad someone agrees!!

[Peevemor]

I wouldn't be for that.

I think the whole point of a minute's silence (or applause as the case may be) is that it is dedicated to one person in particular or a group of people who have lost their lives in a single incident.

I don't think that having one day per year set aside for marking the death of everyone who has passed away over the past 12 months is something that would work well.

Do you think the current random choice system works well? The number of silences/applause has risen exponentially over the years. It used to be about one every couple of seasons and now it's almost monthly. I'm sure on each occasion the person has been worthy, but precedents have been set which has seen the whole thing snowballing.

Where's it going to end?

[Saorsa]

Do you think the current random choice system works well? The number of silences/applause has risen exponentially over the years. It used to be about one every couple of seasons and now it's almost monthly. I'm sure on each occasion the person has been worthy, but precedents have been set which has seen the whole thing snowballing.

Where's it going to end?Tomorrow would be a good start. :agree:

I'm sure 6270 will agree :greengrin

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:

[Hibstrooper]

Went to see Lion King tonight and they had a very moving tribute to Nelson Mandella at the end.

Saying that half the audience applauded whilst the other half complained that they didn't have to do that sort of stuff at Tesco

[Jonnyboy]

At a loss to understand why those who want to mark Mandela's passing and those who don't just accept each others views and carry out those views tomorrow by either joining in or not.

Seems pretty straightforward to me

[Saorsa]

At a loss to understand why those who want to mark Mandela's passing and those who don't just accept each others views and carry out those views tomorrow by either joining in or not.

Seems pretty straightforward to meBecause there will likely be folk at the fitba too who cannae respect others views and who might take offence tae other folk no joining in. Best thing would be no tae have it then the problem winnae arise. Let folk sign a condolence book or attend an event tae mark the occasion, that isnae the fitba. It's nothing tae do with fitba.

[heretoday]

The number of silences/applause have indeed increased in recent years. Why is that?

Whether it is due to the increasing TV Americanisation of our country, the global village syndrome or to our genuinely greater sensitivity to the passing of various people is open to debate.

I suspect item number one with a dash of number two.

Personally, I'd restrict these things to matters close at hand i.e. deaths of Hibs folk, national figures or disasters such as the Clutha.

But what do I know?

[JohnStephens91]

Mandela wasn't a terrorist and there is little evidence that he ever killed any one (or was responsible through commission for killing anyone). He was one of the movers behind Umkhonto we Sizwe - who were set up by the ANC to carry out acts of economic sabotage against the apartheid state having exhausted all political means over a 50 year period. Mandela said this at his trial in 1962:



The full speech is here: http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430

I suspect the examples of 'terrorism' you quote are trumped up by the then apartheid state.

I wasn't saying the Apartheid-era government were excused from their behaviour, nor did I condone their actions? I was merely pointing out the fact that Mandela has a very shady history, much of which is unforgivable. He was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe and signed off on a number of bombings. Just because he did not murder anyone himself does not excuse him from being a terrorist. Take Osama bin Laden as an example, he signed off on a number of deaths of civilians but was not undertaking the murders himself - he was still a terrorist. I'm not comparing the two based on ideologies, but both were heads of organisations that targeted public buildings but neither killed a person directly themselves. Bin Laden is considered the terrorist (rightly so) whilst Mandela's terrorist past is often ignored. I believe his guilty plea in court, as well as Amnesty International refusing to take on his case, is enough proof for his terrorist past.

I apologise for the extreme example too, but it is the best I could think of and I am obviously sorry if it offends anyone.

[Jonnyboy]

Because there will likely be folk at the fitba too who cannae respect others views and who might take offence tae other folk no joining in. Best thing would be no tae have it then the problem winnae arise. Let folk sign a condolence book or attend an event tae mark the occasion, that isnae the fitba. It's nothing tae do with fitba.

Agree it's nothing to do with football J but regardless, it will be happening. Honestly can't see folk chinning others if they do/don't applaud

[JohnStephens91]

At a loss to understand why those who want to mark Mandela's passing and those who don't just accept each others views and carry out those views tomorrow by either joining in or not.

Seems pretty straightforward to me

I agree, I put up a long and balanced post which says why I believe that others may not want to join in and then included my reasons why I would join in. Whatever happens hopefully there is no bickering between folk at the stadium over participation, or indeed non-participation, if there even is one anyway.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Was anyone else cringing at the performance of the self styled GFITW tonight?

[Ronniekirk]

Agree it's nothing to do with football J but regardless, it will be happening. Honestly can't see folk chinning others if they do/don't applaud
Agree give the big man a break He is no even buried yet I just want three points tomorrow but world leaders who clearly command great respect globally don't come round that often so what's a minute to take time out to mark the occasion in whatever way you see fit .

[Danderhall Hibs]

Agree it's nothing to do with football J but regardless, it will be happening. Honestly can't see folk chinning others if they do/don't applaud

The reason for creating the applause is so there's no hassle - if you disrespect a silence it's obvious.

[Saorsa]

Agree it's nothing to do with football J but regardless, it will be happening. Honestly can't see folk chinning others if they do/don't applaudYes it will be happening and I have nae intention of disrespecting it or anything else, I have nae opinions on this particular person one way or the other.

Folk attend fitba tae watch fitba, and IMO these things shouldnae be foist upon people just because they happen tae attend the fitba, nor should people even be put in a position were they are made tae feel uncomfortable about no joining in if they disagree with it or what it may be for. People who wish tae mourn or pay respects tae people no involved in fitba or with the club in some way should do it by other means and somewhere else IMO.

[Sir David Gray]

Do you think the current random choice system works well? The number of silences/applause has risen exponentially over the years. It used to be about one every couple of seasons and now it's almost monthly. I'm sure on each occasion the person has been worthy, but precedents have been set which has seen the whole thing snowballing.

Where's it going to end?

I agree with you.

At a Scottish football match, in my opinion a minute's silence should be held only in the following circumstances;

1 - A former player, coach or official, of either club that is involved in the particular match, has passed away.
2 - A player currently playing for a Scottish football team has passed away.
3 - The Head of State has passed away.
4 - The current Head of Government has passed away.
5 - Remembrance Day.
6 - A natural disaster occurring in the UK.
7 - An atrocity occurring in the UK.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I agree with you.

At a Scottish football match, in my opinion a minute's silence should be held only in the following circumstances;

1 - A former player, coach or official, of either club that is involved in the particular match, has passed away.
2 - A player currently playing for a Scottish football team has passed away.
3 - The Head of State has passed away.
4 - The current Head of Government has passed away.
5 - Remembrance Day.
6 - A natural disaster occurring in the UK.
7 - An atrocity occurring in the UK.

I'd cut 6 & 7 from the list.

[Saorsa]

I agree with you.

At a Scottish football match, in my opinion a minute's silence should be held only in the following circumstances;

1 - A former player, coach or official, of either club that is involved in the particular match, has passed away.
2 - A player currently playing for a Scottish football team has passed away.
3 - The Head of State has passed away.
4 - The current Head of Government has passed away.
5 - Remembrance Day.
6 - A natural disaster occurring in the UK.
7 - An atrocity occurring in the UK.No for me, that's politics.

[monktonharp]

I agree with you.

At a Scottish football match, in my opinion a minute's silence should be held only in the following circumstances;

1 - A former player, coach or official, of either club that is involved in the particular match, has passed away.
2 - A player currently playing for a Scottish football team has passed away.
3 - The Head of State has passed away.
4 - The current Head of Government has passed away.
5 - Remembrance Day.
6 - A natural disaster occurring in the UK.
7 - An atrocity occurring in the UK.

sorry but I need to cut in here: if Thatcher had died and they announced a minutes silence, I'd have been dancing and singing! I have no allegiance to the current head of state (uk) but would respect it, the others you mention,same. Mandela, one man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter as the old saying goes, but without doubt he was a statesman above any parralells ever seen. I attended a few rallies/fund raisers etc before his release, within the context of assisting others to achieve his release. does that make me some sort of terrorist allegiant?

[Liberal Hibby]

I wasn't saying the Apartheid-era government were excused from their behaviour, nor did I condone their actions? I was merely pointing out the fact that Mandela has a very shady history, much of which is unforgivable. He was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe and signed off on a number of bombings. Just because he did not murder anyone himself does not excuse him from being a terrorist. Take Osama bin Laden as an example, he signed off on a number of deaths of civilians but was not undertaking the murders himself - he was still a terrorist. I'm not comparing the two based on ideologies, but both were heads of organisations that targeted public buildings but neither killed a person directly themselves. Bin Laden is considered the terrorist (rightly so) whilst Mandela's terrorist past is often ignored. I believe his guilty plea in court, as well as Amnesty International refusing to take on his case, is enough proof for his terrorist past.

I apologise for the extreme example too, but it is the best I could think of and I am obviously sorry if it offends anyone.

I know you weren't condoning apartheid - but you are repeating their attempt to rewrite history. If you read Mandela's speech it is clear he only organised sabotage of economic targets such as warehouses and transport infrastructure. Mandela has no such terrorist past - unlike bin Laden or Adams/McGuiness who have actively participated in acts designed to murder people.

Mandela specifically says they chose sabotage because it shouldn't involve loss of life - but as the state was murdering africans indiscriminately and had outlawed peaceful protest they had no choice - other than full blown terror designed to kill people. They were trying to hit economic targets and discourage international support for the regime.

The context of his actions is very different (as well as his statesmanship since his release) to those who chose to use terror when politcal means exist (like the IRA) or are psychotic ******wits like Bin Laden. There is no comparison and it demeans him to suggest there is.

[hibbyhabit]

:thumbsup:

You are quite wrong to focus on solely one part of his journey. Even if he had sins early in his life - and that is quite a debate - the totality of his 95 odd years tells a fuller, more complete story.

People plead guilty to all sorts of things under oppressive regimes. Check out the show trials under Hitler and Stalin, never mind various tin pot South American dictators.

In the most evil of circumstances he managed to walk the best possible line between resistance and acceptance. Just a few minutes listening to his views gives you to understand that if there had been any other meaningful way to end the discrimination, violence, oppression and institutionalised racism in South Africa then he would have taken it. He confronted a regime which tortured and murdered systemically - and won. What's more he didn't just defeat it, he ended up co-opting a lot of it and drawing former oppressors into becoming co-agents of change. His achievement is monumental.

More than that - much, much more than that - he conducted himself with dignity, honesty and integrity during his captivity and then in his release such that he was able to rally both whites and non-whites to the new South Africa. If his country lionises him why shouldn't we? If the white captain of the Springboks can idolise him why can't we? As someone else has written, he shows the path we all should want to walk while Mugabe in Zimbabwe shows the path we all too often walk.

If all our political leaders were like him we would live in a much better world. What other leader had or has that honesty, unselfishness, dedication and natural warmth? The Middle East aches for a figure like him.

Oh and no to anything at the football. There are already too many of the public grief merchants attaching themselves to the latest opportunity for a public lovey-in. He may be the greatest man to have ever lived, best let his story speak for itself.

[JohnStephens91]

I know you weren't condoning apartheid - but you are repeating their attempt to rewrite history. If you read Mandela's speech it is clear he only organised sabotage of economic targets such as warehouses and transport infrastructure. Mandela has no such terrorist past - unlike bin Laden or Adams/McGuiness who have actively participated in acts designed to murder people.

Mandela specifically says they chose sabotage because it shouldn't involve loss of life - but as the state was murdering africans indiscriminately and had outlawed peaceful protest they had no choice - other than full blown terror designed to kill people. They were trying to hit economic targets and discourage international support for the regime.

The context of his actions is very different (as well as his statesmanship since his release) to those who chose to use terror when politcal means exist (like the IRA) or are psychotic ******wits like Bin Laden. There is no comparison and it demeans him to suggest there is.

I knew I would be criticised for drawing a comparison, but I feel it was right considering that neither have killed anyone with their own hands and I agreed with the ideals that Mandela wanted, as opposed to Bin Laden's with nobody agreed with barring his followers. Whether or not you agree that Mandela himself was a terrorist, you can't deny that his orchestration of bombing targets in public places resulted in the loss of life?

But, like I said in my original post on this topic, it is the later part of his life that I will choose to reflect on as it was very inspirational.

[Moon unit]

Also apologies for the long post, hopefully it explains why some people are uneasy about celebrating Mandela's entire life and my decision on what to respect and honour about the man :aok:
You may choose not to respect the Man,I will...Thanks for the blinkered history lesson!

[Beefster]

Went to see Lion King tonight and they had a very moving tribute to Nelson Mandella at the end.

Saying that half the audience applauded whilst the other half complained that they didn't have to do that sort of stuff at Tesco

You made me chuckle. This thread summed up in a sentence.


I knew I would be criticised for drawing a comparison, but I feel it was right considering that neither have killed anyone with their own hands and I agreed with the ideals that Mandela wanted, as opposed to Bin Laden's with nobody agreed with barring his followers. Whether or not you agree that Mandela himself was a terrorist, you can't deny that his orchestration of bombing targets in public places resulted in the loss of life?

But, like I said in my original post on this topic, it is the later part of his life that I will choose to reflect on as it was very inspirational.

Bin Laden did kill people with his own hands (which were holding a gun or a rocket launcher at the time), during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan at least. Bin Laden didn't orchestrate terrorism against the West because he was being oppressed either.

Do you view the French Resistance as terrorists too?

[blackpoolhibs]

You made me chuckle. This thread summed up in a sentence.



Bin Laden did kill people with his own hands (which were holding a gun or a rocket launcher at the time), during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan at least. Bin Laden didn't orchestrate terrorism against the West because he was being oppressed either.

Do you view the French Resistance as terrorists too?

I don't know much about the French Resistance, did they put bombs in public places where innocent men women and children were blown up going about their everyday life?

Personally i don't think there is any reason i can imagine, where i could do such a thing?

Now there is no question he's done a fantastic job since being released, but to ignore what i'd say was a terrible part of his life, and to ignore some of what he sanctioned and praise the good he did is wrong in my opinion.

Whatever your view on him, again in my opinion its nothing to do with Hibs.

[lapsedhibee]

It's no more manufactured than a minutes silence.
Do you remember the minutes silence at Easter Road when George Best passed away? It lasted about ten seconds before somebody starting clapping which was taken up by the whole ground. It was spontaneous and also very moving. What does it matter if it doesn't happen anywhere else?

Was this just someone being impatient though, rather than being innovatively moving? It used to be that a full minute's silence was followed by some applause and then the action on the pitch restarted. Perhaps he just got his timing all wrong?


Went to see Lion King tonight and they had a very moving tribute to Nelson Mandella at the end.

Saying that half the audience applauded whilst the other half complained that they didn't have to do that sort of stuff at Tesco

Tesco has been mentioned a few times as an applause/silence-free zone, but my local Tesco announces a few minutes beforehand that there will be a silence at 11 on Remembrance Sunday. Enough notice to get your purchases completed and out of the shop beforehand if you're a terrorist etc.

[SHODAN]

I agree with you.

At a Scottish football match, in my opinion a minute's silence should be held only in the following circumstances;

3 - The Head of State has passed away.
4 - The current Head of Government has passed away.Too much potential for trouble imo.

I for one would take a massive exception to 3 and I really hope we aren't stupid enough to have one when it does actually occur.

[hibby rae]

I do remember it.

I just don't like them and I find a minute's silence to be a lot more poignant. As I've said already, the minute's applauses were only brought in because an increasing number of idiots were unable to stay silent for 60 seconds.

I don't think that's a good enough reason to stop them.

I quite like the use of a minute's applause, but it does depend on the event . For example, an event like Dunblane should be marked by a silence but I see no reason someone's life shouldn't be celebrated with applause. I'd rather shuffle off this mortal coil to cheers instead of tears.

[Beefster]

Personally i don't think there is any reason i can imagine, where i could do such a thing?

Nor can I but I haven't lived under brutal oppression or been discriminated against in every aspect of my life.

[jacomo]

I don't know much about the French Resistance, did they put bombs in public places where innocent men women and children were blown up going about their everyday life?

Personally i don't think there is any reason i can imagine, where i could do such a thing?

Now there is no question he's done a fantastic job since being released, but to ignore what i'd say was a terrible part of his life, and to ignore some of what he sanctioned and praise the good he did is wrong in my opinion.

Whatever your view on him, again in my opinion its nothing to do with Hibs.

Can't believe you are still going on...

[blackpoolhibs]

Nor can I but I haven't lived under brutal oppression or been discriminated against in every aspect of my life.

Me neither.

[Moon unit]

Is one Minute...too much to take out of your life.
One minute to show a little respect?
if it is I despair.

[Saorsa]

Is one Minute...too much to take out of your life.
One minute to show a little respect?
if it is I despair.It's nothing tae do with the minute or a lack of respect or anything else, if it happens I'll respect it or if it's somebody I have nae respect for or totally despise I'll stay away until it's over. It's why fitba is continually getting it's self involved that's the issue when it has nothing tae do with fitba. Why should people who have nae wish tae take part in these things have it foist upon them (or be made tae feel uncomfortable about no taking part) just because they happen attend the fitba. Should we have a minutes silence every time somebody dies? I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life, I can think of many people closer tae me I'd rather have such a thing for, can they all have one too? Let people go tae organised events for these things if they want tae or let them find another way tae do it and stop puting it upon other folk.

[Moon unit]

I wasn't saying the Apartheid-era government were excused from their behaviour, nor did I condone their actions? I was merely pointing out the fact that Mandela has a very shady history, much of which is unforgivable. He was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe and signed off on a number of bombings. Just because he did not murder anyone himself does not excuse him from being a terrorist. Take Osama bin Laden as an example, he signed off on a number of deaths of civilians but was not undertaking the murders himself - he was still a terrorist. I'm not comparing the two based on ideologies, but both were heads of organisations that targeted public buildings but neither killed a person directly themselves. Bin Laden is considered the terrorist (rightly so) whilst Mandela's terrorist past is often ignored. I believe his guilty plea in court, as well as Amnesty International refusing to take on his case, is enough proof for his terrorist past.

I apologise for the extreme example too, but it is the best I could think of and I am obviously sorry if it offends anyone.
Spare us the history lesson..which right wing rags and media outlets did you pluck your FACTS about Mandela's terrorist past?...look no further than the good ol' USA -the world police force who continue to use Drones to kill innocent people,uk gov't no angels as well!...suppose it's all about opinions though,so I respect yours!

[Moon unit]

It's nothing tae do with the minute or a lack of respect or anything else, if it happens I'll respect it or if it's somebody I have nae respect for or totally despise I'll stay away until it's over. It's why fitba is continually getting it's self involved that's the issue when it has nothing tae do with fitba. Why should people who have nae wish tae take part in these things have it foist upon them (or be made tae feel uncomfortable about no taking part) just because they happen attend the fitba. Should we have a minutes silence every time somebody dies? I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life, I can think of many people closer tae me I'd rather have such a thing for, can they all have one too? Let people go tae organised events for these things if they want tae or let them find another way tae do it and stop puting it upon other folk.

He probably had more influence on peoples lives than they realise! Without more men like him wouldn't racism and oppression would be more rife?

[bigwheel]

I don't know much about the French Resistance, did they put bombs in public places where innocent men women and children were blown up going about their everyday life?

Personally i don't think there is any reason i can imagine, where i could do such a thing?

Now there is no question he's done a fantastic job since being released, but to ignore what i'd say was a terrible part of his life, and to ignore some of what he sanctioned and praise the good he did is wrong in my opinion.

Whatever your view on him, again in my opinion its nothing to do with Hibs.

You do realise he was fighting simply for equality and fairness against one of the most brutal and murderous regimes history has every known don't you? You do have a sense that the black population of South Africa were treated as a sub human species for generations don't you? To suggested he supported approaches that targeted innocent individuals shows a lack of understanding of what happened in recent history.

if Scottish Football takes 1 minute out of today to let those who want to show a mark of respect for a man who has possibly had more positive effect on mankind in our lifetime than anyone else....clap or don't clap....that freedom of choice is one of the principles that Mandela fought for...

[poolman]

It's nothing tae do with the minute or a lack of respect or anything else, if it happens I'll respect it or if it's somebody I have nae respect for or totally despise I'll stay away until it's over. It's why fitba is continually getting it's self involved that's the issue when it has nothing tae do with fitba. Why should people who have nae wish tae take part in these things have it foist upon them (or be made tae feel uncomfortable about no taking part) just because they happen attend the fitba. Should we have a minutes silence every time somebody dies? I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life, I can think of many people closer tae me I'd rather have such a thing for, can they all have one too? Let people go tae organised events for these things if they want tae or let them find another way tae do it and stop puting it upon other folk.



:agree:

[Saorsa]

He probably had more influence on peoples lives than they realise! Without more men like him wouldn't racism and oppression would be more rife?It still has nothing tae do with fitba regardless of what he's done. Who decides who gets one? Lots of people have done lots of good things, should all those who have gone before but never had one get a back dated one now that there seems tae be a fad for such things at fitba matches? I'll say again why fitba? Will they be having one at cinemas before every movie? Will they be having one in the train station before every train departs? Of course not, so why the fitba? There's is a time and a place for these things and it isnae any of the above mentioned including fitba matches. I go tae the fitba tae watch fitba, no tae have public tributes every other week tae people I've never met in my puff regardless of whether I respect them or not. What if half the people in the ground want nae part in it, why should they have it put upon them just because they are at the fitba? As an example of what can go wrong when these things are forced upon people who oppose the object of them look what happened when they had one for the pope at a fitba match, a disgraceful event and disgraceful behaviour by those involved for which there is nae excuse but nonetheless it would never have happened if fitba authorities hadnae decided tae get involved. If enough people want tae get involved in these things then there should be organised events for them and people wishing tae attend can and people who have nae wish tae have nae need tae be involved, they shoulnae be put upon people just because they happen tae be there.

[hibby rae]

"Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire, it has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope, where once there was only despair. It is more powerful than governments in breaking down racial barriers. It laughs in the face of all types of discrimination."
Nelson Mandela.

[Golden Bear]

Where do we start and where do we finish? What is the criteria for holding a minutes silence or applause? - I hope there isn't one incidentally.

I'm firmly in the camp that the Club should only hold a minutes silence to mark the death of one of its own.

[Saorsa]

"Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire, it has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope, where once there was only despair. It is more powerful than governments in breaking down racial barriers. It laughs in the face of all types of discrimination."
Nelson Mandela.Yes but fitba can also do the opposite, see my example above, fitba disnae unite bigots.

[hibby rae]

Yes but fitba can also do the opposite, see my example above, fitba disnae unite bigots.

Leave the disunity to the bigots. We're not bigots, we're Hibernian FC and our history is about using sport for the power of good!

[Saorsa]

Leave the disunity to the bigots. We're not bigots, we're Hibernian FC and our history is about using sport for the power of good!I never said otherwise, I said it happens, it's a fact. It's an example of where fitba/sport disnae unite but only highlights the problem and was an example of sport, particularly fitba being used for such things isnae a good idea. It's an example of what happens when something is put upon people who for what ever reason are opposed tae the object of it. It's my opinion that such things should happen at specific events and not be put upon people who may have nae wish tae partake, just because they happen tae be there.

Again using the example above I would have nae wish tae respect the pope (or any other religious leader for that matter as I think religion is a load of cobblers) but my choice would be tae stay away until it was over but why should I have tae do that when going tae the fitba?

Anyway I'm of shortly tae the boozer and then tae the fitba tae watch the fitba.

[hibby rae]

I never said otherwise, I said it happens. It's an example of where fitba/sport disnae unite but only highlights the problem and was an example of sport, particularly fitba being used for such things isnae a good idea. It's my opinon that such things should happen at specific events and not be put upon people who may have nae wish tae partake, just because they happen tae be there.

Again using the example above I would have nae wish tae respect the pope (or any other religious leader for that matter as I think religion is a load of cobblers) but my choice would be tae stay away until it was over but why should I have tae do that when going tae the fitba?

Anyway I'm of shortly tae the boozer and then tae the fitba tae watch the fitba.

I was just posting what I think is a rather beautiful quote on the force for good sport can be, how it can bind people. Of course there are others who use it otherwise, but in the scheme of things they'e in the minority. On the matter of today's applause, I'll take part in it and be happy to.However, I respect anyone who doesn't believe it's the right forum to mark such events.

[WhileTheChief..]

I thought this thread would be people paying their respects but it's turned into a disgusting debate on the merits of a minutes applause. Whilst there is a time and place to debate whether it's appropriate at football matches, now isn't either.

Folk that are saying it has nothing to do with football just don't get it.

[Andy74]

I thought this thread would be people paying their respects but it's turned into a disgusting debate on the merits of a minutes applause. Whilst there is a time and place to debate whether it's appropriate at football matches, now isn't either.

Folk that are saying it has nothing to do with football just don't get it.

Disgusting debate? Behave.

[Eyrie]

Interesting post by S&S about Nelson Mandela's trial - far more informative than the hagiographies without being disrespectful. Those challenging it seem to have the view that the man could do no wrong, which Mandela himself would have disputed.


I thought this thread would be people paying their respects but it's turned into a disgusting debate on the merits of a minutes applause. Whilst there is a time and place to debate whether it's appropriate at football matches, now isn't either.

Folk that are saying it has nothing to do with football just don't get it.

I think that is the whole point under discussion though. What relevance does Nelson Mandela have to Hibs? Was he an ex-player or lifelong fan? If not, then where do you draw the line about who deserves a minute's silence/applause?

[hibby6270]

It's nothing tae do with the minute or a lack of respect or anything else, if it happens I'll respect it or if it's somebody I have nae respect for or totally despise I'll stay away until it's over. It's why fitba is continually getting it's self involved that's the issue when it has nothing tae do with fitba. Why should people who have nae wish tae take part in these things have it foist upon them (or be made tae feel uncomfortable about no taking part) just because they happen attend the fitba. Should we have a minutes silence every time somebody dies? I've never met Mandela nor has he had any influence upon my life, I can think of many people closer tae me I'd rather have such a thing for, can they all have one too? Let people go tae organised events for these things if they want tae or let them find another way tae do it and stop puting it upon other folk.

Agreed

[hibby6270]

At a loss to understand why those who want to mark Mandela's passing and those who don't just accept each others views and carry out those views tomorrow by either joining in or not.

Seems pretty straightforward to me

Agreed - and I think by now you'll have worked out which side of the fence I'm standing on - or should I say sitting on at 1458 today.

[hibby6270]

Yes it will be happening and I have nae intention of disrespecting it or anything else, I have nae opinions on this particular person one way or the other.

Folk attend fitba tae watch fitba, and IMO these things shouldnae be foist upon people just because they happen tae attend the fitba, nor should people even be put in a position were they are made tae feel uncomfortable about no joining in if they disagree with it or what it may be for. People who wish tae mourn or pay respects tae people no involved in fitba or with the club in some way should do it by other means and somewhere else IMO.

Guess what? I Agree.

[Amit]

If it happens. Take part or don't. It's 60 seconds then we can get on with the football.

What makes me laugh is the fact people on here have clearly spent more than a minute debating the topic!


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[Bishop Hibee]

If it happens. Take part or don't. It's 60 seconds then we can get on with the football.

What makes me laugh is the fact people on here have clearly spent more than a minute debating the topic!


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Hilarious :rolleyes: From now on I will only act impulsively without thinking my actions through.

[Amit]

Hilarious :rolleyes: From now on I will only act impulsively without thinking my actions through.

The comment was tongue n cheek. Glad you found it hilarious!


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[Russ]

I'm certain there are lots of people who would like to pay their respects, but at a football game, where there may be a sizeable number who don't really care either way?

There are bound to be books of condolence at City Chambers and no doubt other events where people can rightly recognise Mandela and his life.

I'm just not convinced an SPL game is the right place at all.

This.

[MADE IN LEITH]

I don't see any reason why we can't offer a minutes silence at a football match to a man who gave so much back to the world in the name of morality and changed the way we think about each other. I am sure we all can see past it being at a football match and give him that minutes silence which is nothing compared to the 27 years he spent in prison.

[hibby6270]

I have posted several, some might think stupid or tongue in cheek, one word responses to this thread indicating my agreement to a number of opinions about whether this is worthwhile or not. In many respects it's heartening to see that my own personal opinion is mirrored amongst some of my fellow Hibbies. Desperate Dan has been literally taking my words and thoughts straight out of my mouth.

But to put my own slant on this.

Mandela was a great man. That is not in question. But if you need to respect his passing, it should be done at events organised and relevant to the man himself. Not before a Hibs v Partick Thistle game or any other football game for that matter.

He was a politician and had no connection to Hibernian whatsoever as far as I know. These applauses or silences before games should be confined to respecting those who had an affiliation with the club in some way - former players and managers. End off!!

You've probably guessed that I for one will not be participating in the minutes applause today and I will do it with a clear conscience knowing that I ( in a very small way like Mandela) will be standing up for (or should that be sitting?) and respecting MY own principles.

[hibby6270]

I thought this thread would be people paying their respects but it's turned into a disgusting debate on the merits of a minutes applause. Whilst there is a time and place to debate whether it's appropriate at football matches, now isn't either.

Folk that are saying it has nothing to do with football just don't get it.

In contrast to my previous replies - I DISAGREE.

[Hiber-nation]

Is one Minute...too much to take out of your life.
One minute to show a little respect?
if it is I despair.

Exactly. Cannot believe how upset people get about a minute's disruption of their day. I honestly don't care who the minute's silence/applause is for, I'll respect it.

[joe breezy]

Blackpool and Derby doing their applause just now - a strange one....

They should play free Nelson Mandella on the tanoy or something...

I think Hibs should have a minutes applause for Nigella Lawson for whipping up cracking recipes whilst having a sugar bag full of Columbia's finest up her nose...it has much more of a connection with Hibs given the heritage we have in off field antics

[Hibbyradge]

He was a politician and had no connection to Hibernian whatsoever as far as I know.

He had a connection to humanity and he touched many people's lives, including football fans.

I'll be proud to join with other Hibs supporters in showing a token of our respect to him for the very last time.

There won't be another chance.

[Hibby70]

Is there anyone left alive that could be a potential for a minute's silence/applause? Let's do this one and draw a line under it.

[Russ]

Can't believe you are still going on...

I can .....:rolleyes:

[MADE IN LEITH]

He had a connection to humanity and he touched many people's lives, including football fans.

I'll be proud to join with other Hibs supporters in showing a token of our respect to him for the very last time.

There won't be another chance.

Agree!

[lapsedhibee]

He had a connection to humanity and he touched many people's lives, including football fans.

I'll be proud to join with other Hibs supporters in showing a token of our respect to him for the very last time.

There won't be another chance.

A slightly strange argument, Radge. I don't have the precise figures, but he will have touched more cinemagoers' and supermarket shoppers' lives than football fans' lives.

[Geo_1875]

Why have a minutes applause? If you want to show real respect stay silent for a minute as we do when remembering victims of war. And have it at 2:00 pm so that those who want can make the effort to get there early and the rest can turn up, sit down and watch the game.

[Hibiza]

applause . yes. don't understand the don't want too's.

[Hibbyradge]

A slightly strange argument, Radge. I don't have the precise figures, but he will have touched more cinemagoers' and supermarket shoppers' lives than football fans' lives.

I don't see shoppers or film goers as a community or, as we at Hibs call it, a family.

Foitball supporters have a definite identify snd a collectiveness.

If people don't want to show their respect for someone, they don't have to.

[Geo_1875]

applause . yes. don't understand the don't want too's.

It's all about equality of choice.

[Keith_M]

Is there a game on today or is this the only subject worth discussing?


I think this thread is a serious candidate for the Holy Ground Forum.......




:wink:

[--------]

It's no more manufactured than a minutes silence.
Do you remember the minutes silence at Easter Road when George Best passed away? It lasted about ten seconds before somebody starting clapping which was taken up by the whole ground. It was spontaneous and also very moving. What does it matter if it doesn't happen anywhere else?


The clue is in the word 'spontaneous'.

George Best was a great footballer who had played for Hibs - it made perfect sense for the club to recognise his place in the game and in the history of Hibs. I don't think anyone objects to any sort of tribute in such circumstances.

But it's reached the point where people are being expected to stand and applaud or stand in silence for all sorts of people most of whom have little or no connection with the game of football.

There was no official notice taken or Remembrance at ER. That's a commemoration with a direct connection to Scotland and to Edinburgh and has been observed for nearly 100 years now. Many Hibs players and supporters are among those being remembered at that time of year, yet there was no notice taken of it this year.

So why then a recognition of Mandela - especially when it's clear from this thread that there are quite a number of people who are uncomfortable with the idea?

Sometimes people get a reputation for good or evil so overmastering that no one's allowed to question it or even examine it, and right now Nelson Mandela seems to be one of them. He's one of the greatest men of the 20th century - period. But history will sooner or later start to re-appraise his life and work, and maybe 50 years from now he won't be considered quite such an all-round good guy as he seems now.

That said, South Africa will miss him and his influence and will probably be the worse for his death. There's no questioning his greatness, but whether a football stadium in Edinburgh on a wet afternoon just before Christmas is the place for a non-spontaneous act of remembrance is another question.

I don't think it is, and I think we should be a lot more sparing with our public outpourings of grief/sympathy/whatever.