League Reconstruction for 2013/14 (merged)

[StevieC]

No its for more than that if you check SPL rules (look back on thread where i posted) there are 3 cats of issue that all have different voting numbers required...

My understanding of what was said yesterday was that the 9-3 comprimise was for league construction only, and it appeared that it was only offered up as a way to overide SM/RC. It's little wonder they rejected it.

Whether SM/RC were right or wrong at least it showed up the farcical situation where two teams can basically run rough shod over the other teams in the league.

And Stewart Milne's attempts at bullying are made even worse by the fact that he previously had the opportunity to change the voting structure and utilised the 11-1 to block it. One of the interviewers should have put that to him as I'm pretty sure he would have shut up there and then if they had.

[MB62]

The SPL chairmen claim that concessions had to made on all sides and that they can't just cherry pick the good parts.
WHY NOT?

12-12-18 has been a tried and tested failure in other countries, not surprisingly, so what makes our chairmen think that we could make it work?
C83% of fans who voted on this didn't want it.
The 11-1 voting has to go and 9-3 does look a fairer system so why can't that be voted on separately, apart from Celtc, which other clubs didn't want that system to change?

I get the feeling there is something that we, the fans, are not being told, because as it stood, I am amazed how many clubs wanted this to go through and I would like to hear from 'Oor Rod' on why he thought this was going to be such a success? IMO, all this new league set up was going to do was drive even more fans away from the game.

As it stands at the moment, I have to say 'Well done to St. Mirren and Ross County for bumping this moronic league structure proposal'.

[Gatecrasher]

The SPL chairmen claim that concessions had to made on all sides and that they can't just cherry pick the good parts.
WHY NOT?

12-12-18 has been a tried and tested failure in other countries, not surprisingly, so what makes our chairmen think that we could make it work?
C83% of fans who voted on this didn't want it.
The 11-1 voting has to go and 9-3 does look a fairer system so why can't that be voted on separately, apart from Celtc, which other clubs didn't want that system to change?

I get the feeling there is something that we, the fans, are not being told, because as it stood, I am amazed how many clubs wanted this to go through and I would like to hear from 'Oor Rod' on why he thought this was going to be such a success? IMO, all this new league set up was going to do was drive even more fans away from the game.

As it stands at the moment, I have to say 'Well done to St. Mirren and Ross County for bumping this moronic league structure proposal'.
That's the question it seems a lot of people want answered but no one is asking lol.

[carnoustiehibee]

I don't know how anyone can have a go at Ross county. They have came through the highland league,up 4 divisions and now sit 4th in the SPL. MacGregor should be applauded for what he's done.

All Thomson and Milne are interested in is sponsorship deals, and money.both have squandered millions chasing the old firm with mercenaries.

[CelticEnd]

12-12-18 has been a tried and tested failure in other countries, not surprisingly, so what makes our chairmen think that we could make it work?

That isn't a very good argument as larger leagues have been tried and tested in countries with similar populations to ourselves and then binned in favour of smaller leagues.

I think it's clear that Scottish football fans want a bigger league and 12/12/18 was the only way we could have moved towards this.

At the moment SFL1 teams, as proven by Dundee this season, are a good bit behind the SPL teams. They would need more resources in order to compete.

Sponsors and TV don't see enough quality teams to make a 16/18 team appealing and due to this and fewer fixtures clubs can't see it working.

Yesterday the deal on the table was a good one.

12/12/18 with more money filtering down to SFL1 clubs.... The middle group of 8 would also have seen the better SFL1 clubs mix it more often with SPL clubs and see what level they had to get to in order to play at the top level.

If this was a success then in 3 years we could have reviewed the situation and if SFL1 clubs were handing themselves well in the "Playoff League" then it would have given a good basis for debate on a larger league.

Also with League Reconstruction taken out of 11-1 voting then any further bigger league could have been pushed through on a more democratic 9-3 basis.

[alexedwards]

That isn't a very good argument as larger leagues have been tried and tested in countries with similar populations to ourselves and then binned in favour of smaller leagues.

I think it's clear that Scottish football fans want a bigger league and 12/12/18 was the only way we could have moved towards this.

At the moment SFL1 teams, as proven by Dundee this season, are a good bit behind the SPL teams. They would need more resources in order to compete.

Sponsors and TV don't see enough quality teams to make a 16/18 team appealing and due to this and fewer fixtures clubs can't see it working.

Yesterday the deal on the table was a good one.

12/12/18 with more money filtering down to SFL1 clubs.... The middle group of 8 would also have seen the better SFL1 clubs mix it more often with SPL clubs and see what level they had to get to in order to play at the top level.

If this was a success then in 3 years we could have reviewed the situation and if SFL1 clubs were handing themselves well in the "Playoff League" then it would have given a good basis for debate on a larger league.

Also with League Reconstruction taken out of 11-1 voting then any further bigger league could have been pushed through on a more democratic 9-3 basis.

This argument is utterly squashed by one regularly ignored item - 90% of fans don't want it.
Yesterday, the deal on the table would have slowly killed Scottish football as a spectator sport.
Don't be so naive as to think these fans won't walk. :rolleyes:

[Beefster]

As I thought St Mirrens Hero status badly exposed...9-3 offered as further compromise and still turned it down....

Strange when they made a big fuss... their bluff is called....hope they got a good bung from Chuckie because they have not made many friends over this

'Clubs in favour had proposed altering the required majority for changes in league structure from 11-1 to 9-3.
But that was rejected by the two clubs as well as the main proposal'

Is there any chance of LWT asking the club to explain their stance on league reconstruction and the reasons why the support wasn't consulted unlike the Sevco debacle?

[CelticEnd]

This argument is utterly squashed by one regularly ignored item - 90% of fans don't want it.
Yesterday, the deal on the table would have slowly killed Scottish football as a spectator sport.
Don't be so naive as to think these fans won't walk. :rolleyes:

I don't really see the problem with 12/12/18? It's better than what we have and would have worked towards potentially delivering a bigger league.

Personally think they sold it all wrong. If they came out and said they were doing 12/12/18 to get top SFL clubs more chance of playing at a higher level and trying to build them up to join a bigger league in the future then I think fans would have bought into it more.

What kind of league would you ideally want to see?

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer and think 12/12/18 was a decent stepping stone especially if it meant removing league reconstruction from the 11/1 voting structure.

[HibsNibs]

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer and think 12/12/18 was a decent stepping stone especially if it meant removing league reconstruction from the 11/1 voting structure.

11-1 must be removed on all issues so we can start real progressive changes like gate sharing, fair distribution of TV money etc. The only way to save Scottish football is to emasculate celtc & sevco.

[Saorsa]

I don't really see the problem with 12/12/18? It's better than what we have and would have worked towards potentially delivering a bigger league.

Personally think they sold it all wrong. If they came out and said they were doing 12/12/18 to get top SFL clubs more chance of playing at a higher level and trying to build them up to join a bigger league in the future then I think fans would have bought into it more.

What kind of league would you ideally want to see?

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer and think 12/12/18 was a decent stepping stone especially if it meant removing league reconstruction from the 11/1 voting structure.That should be removed period, this time though it backfired on those who want it kept.

Did they really think that the 2 clubs who were against the league proposals would be conned in tae allowing themselves tae be out voted by voting tae remove league reconstruction form the 11-1 structure. :hilarious

I'd like tae see everybody coming clean over their reason/s for keeping that pish in place when it was originally conceived tae benefit two clubs, but will they, will they ****, bunch of conniving, scheming shysters.

[CelticEnd]

gate sharing

Agree with what you say but this is a non starter as it would take so much money out of the game. Celtic fans wouldn't buy season tickets to see half of the money filter out of the club.

I genuinely believe that Celtic know they're going to be in Scottish football for the foreseeable future and are keen to try and help the game but sharing gate receipts kills Celtic as a club capable of playing to a decent level in Europe and it's too much to ask us to give up.

Ideas I'd propose would be:

- Celtic letting away clubs keep profits from gate receipts for the away area at Celtic Park (would encourage more visiting fans, improve atmosphere and generate more money for other clubs)

- In the event Celtic qualify for the group stages of the Champions League they should agree to distribute there prize money and TV money from the SPL equally among the other clubs. In turn the SPL should try and accommodate Celtic where possible in terms of Friday night or Saturday fixtures before CL matches.

- Away fans season tickets. Chance for Celtic fans to buy away fans season tickets and that money getting spread between SPL clubs. Would mean they'd have a guaranteed income and tickets would be paid for in advance giving them a chance to plan their cash flow better.

I do think everyone has to be fair and come up with workable ideas. Gate sharing is not workable.

[alexedwards]

I don't really see the problem with 12/12/18? It's better than what we have and would have worked towards potentially delivering a bigger league.

Personally think they sold it all wrong. If they came out and said they were doing 12/12/18 to get top SFL clubs more chance of playing at a higher level and trying to build them up to join a bigger league in the future then I think fans would have bought into it more.

What kind of league would you ideally want to see?

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer and think 12/12/18 was a decent stepping stone especially if it meant removing league reconstruction from the 11/1 voting structure.

Earlier Post;
The SPL had a proposal in 2004 / 07 / 10 / 11 to deal with the match shortage in a 16-team league that was exciting and innovative and maintained matches at 36 per season. Also included was a North Euro Cup (not league) to cover the fact that larger Euro nations were leaving us behind and didn't really care about the smaller nations. In the long run this would have included more Euro matches for SPL clubs out-with the old firm.
The real problem here is no genuine experienced sports event organiser/promoter is allowed near the SPL because the SPL Chairmen and that major league of theirs are petrified they might have to divvy out more than 12 shares of sponsor income, gate receipts and they are also scared TV will walk - it's nonsense - and stinks of fear prior to investigation.
16 is the only option or many fans currently seeking reasons to leave will defo walk.
The paying customer has lost faith in the League format, and also in those with senior positions who seem to think that outrageous lying is an acceptable tool to use to steamroller major decisions through. All on the back
of recent major decisions on "The Rangers" where further scaremongering and lying was utilised.
More lying from Neil Doncaster in late 2010 with regard to yet another hastily arranged 10-team top tier and
second tier 12-team league where we were told once again about imminent meltdown - perhaps leading to his
"Rangers Armageddon" spell - maybe if he told the truth rather than this "lie liberally" approach we may believe him - I know it's a novel concept but nevertheless generally found to work in life.
These senior responsible administrators of our game appear to be unaware that paying customers are watching
closely at their inept performance and rightly have no trust in them.
Bear in mind Doncaster is the sum total of the SPL club Boards.

[PatHead]

:top marks
11-1 must be removed on all issues so we can start real progressive changes like gate sharing, fair distribution of TV money etc. The only way to save Scottish football is to emasculate celtc & sevco.

[PatHead]

That should be removed period, this time though it backfired on those who want it kept.

Did they really think that the 2 clubs who were against the league proposals would be conned in tae allowing themselves tae be out voted by removing league reconstruction form the 11-1 structure. :hilarious

I'd like tae see everybody coming clean over their reason/s for keeping that pish in place when it was originally conceived tae benefit two clubs, but will they, will they ****, bunch of conniving, scheming shysters.

Stewart Milne and Celtic were the only ones to vote to keep the status quo.

[jdships]

If we are honest with ourselves how many of us REALLY UNDERSTAND what Doncaster et al are trying to do here
I for one don't !!
If I had been asked to vote on this I must hold my hand up and say I DON'T KNOW where I would have put my X !!

We have had so many attempts at ' reconstruction' can anyone guess what this lot will come up with next ?:confused:

[Saorsa]

Stewart Milne and Celtic were the only ones to vote to keep the status quo.[/B]Well we ken why one of them wants it, I'd be interested tae see somebody question Milne. It's a pity naebody thought tae ask him during is rant at St.Mirren and Ross County.

Still find it rather amusing that the structure he voted tae keep blew up in his face for that vote, it would have been carried had it been removed.

[CelticEnd]

Well we ken why one of them wants it, I'd be interested tae see somebody question Milne. It's a pity naebody thought tae ask him during is rant at St.Mirren and Ross County.

Quite obvious why...

If they take away 11/1 then there's a chance of gate sharing.

Aberdeen are planning on building a new stadium and would hope to start averaging 15,000 fans.

They'd be as well scrapping these plans if gate sharing came in.

[JimBHibees]

Quite obvious why...

If they take away 11/1 then there's a chance of gate sharing.

Aberdeen are planning on building a new stadium and would hope to start averaging 15,000 fans.

They'd be as well scrapping these plans if gate sharing came in.

Surely got to be more than that their current crowds are nowhere near that amount and the initial ground cost will take years to pay off. I think fairer distribution should be agreed and whether that is gate sharing not at 50/50 level but maybe 70/30 then it would likely create a more competitive league.

[LeighLoyal]

That 9-3 was on the table and Sevco Mirren knocked it back is shameful. Not happy. Something aint right about this.

[Saorsa]

Quite obvious why...

If they take away 11/1 then there's a chance of gate sharing.

Aberdeen are planning on building a new stadium and would hope to start averaging 15,000 fans.

They'd be as well scrapping these plans if gate sharing came in.Well his own self interest on one issue has backfired on him in another, seems tae me he has a bit of a brass neck tae have a go at others who have decided tae vote for what they see as their interests. Nothing in Scottish fitba will change until everybody decides tae act for the good of the game as a whole instead of just themselves and in the end they'll kill it for everybody.

[Beefster]

That 9-3 was on the table and Sevco Mirren knocked it back is shameful. Not happy. Something aint right about this.

A partial 9-3 was on the table.

[McSwanky]

Quite obvious why...

If they take away 11/1 then there's a chance of gate sharing.

Aberdeen are planning on building a new stadium and would hope to start averaging 15,000 fans.

They'd be as well scrapping these plans if gate sharing came in.

:aok::hyper:

When was the last time Aberdeed averaged 15,000 fans?

The words, 'cloud,' 'cuckoo' and 'land' spring to mind. Do you really belive that's Milne's reasoning?

[CelticEnd]

:aok::hyper:

When was the last time Aberdeed averaged 15,000 fans?

The words, 'cloud,' 'cuckoo' and 'land' spring to mind. Do you really belive that's Milne's reasoning?

I said they would hope to average that if they move to a nice new stadium.. never said it was likely but it is possible.

Also if you changed to 70/30 gate receipts then Aberdeen, Hibs would generate the same they generate at the moment. Celtic would lose out, Hearts would lose out and everyone else would gain but not massively.

[McSwanky]

I said they would hope to average that if they move to a nice new stadium.. never said it was likely but it is possible.

Also if you changed to 70/30 gate receipts then Aberdeen, Hibs would generate the same they generate at the moment. Celtic would lose out, Hearts would lose out and everyone else would gain but not massively.

Unless I'm mistaken, Milne is a successful businessman. I doubt someone with his business savvy is going to base his strategy on something that is 'not likely, but possible' (I would move to suggest that it's highly unlikely and barely possible).

As for Hearts, have you seen their average attendance this season? Knock a couple of thousand of that due to their shabby reporting (you could do a simlar job with Celtic's stats by the way) and have a think about how they're going to even attract a similar number of fans next season given their financial plight/league position.



Still thinking? Thought so.

[PatHead]

Well we ken why one of them wants it, I'd be interested tae see somebody question Milne. It's a pity naebody thought tae ask him during is rant at St.Mirren and Ross County.

Still find it rather amusing that the structure he voted tae keep blew up in his face for that vote, it would have been carried had it been removed.

Milne would not vote in favour of the change as he had fixed ideas as to how league re-construction should proceed and was not willing to compromise. He would only agree to a change once league reconstruction was finalised. Edit In view of the above poster, yes Milne is a successful businessman who is used to getting his own way.

[JimBHibees]

I said they would hope to average that if they move to a nice new stadium.. never said it was likely but it is possible.

Also if you changed to 70/30 gate receipts then Aberdeen, Hibs would generate the same they generate at the moment. Celtic would lose out, Hearts would lose out and everyone else would gain but not massively.

Win/Win then :greengrin

Agree probably wouldnt make a significant difference at present however would probably when Sevco return.

[Saorsa]

Milne would not vote in favour of the change as he had fixed ideas as to how league re-construction should proceed and was not willing to compromise. He would only agree to a change once league reconstruction was finalised.Well like I said, he's got a brass neck tae have a go at others when his uncompromising stance is just as likely tae be the cause of any failure as others are. Just somebody else who thinks it's all about what he wants and that's why they'll keep failing.

[CelticEnd]

As for Hearts, have you seen their average attendance this season? Knock a couple of thousand of that due to their shabby reporting (you could do a simlar job with Celtic's stats by the way)

Doesn't really matter.

If 35,000 turn up at Celtic Park for a game and we've sold 40,000 season tickets and 5,000 other tickets the gate to be shared is still 45,000 even though only 35,000 are in attendance.

We can forget gate sharing as it's never going to happen anyway. Everyone has to compromise but this is one area that would be beyond compromise for Celtic.

Genuine question for supporters of a 16 team league - how do you see this working?

Ideally I like the idea of a 16 team league, fewer games, more teams to play against but I don't see how it actually improves things in terms of quality of matches we'll be watching or quality of player who'll be in the SPL? I actually see these two things going down in quality.

[PatHead]

Doesn't really matter.

If 35,000 turn up at Celtic Park for a game and we've sold 40,000 season tickets and 5,000 other tickets the gate to be shared is still 45,000 even though only 35,000 are in attendance.

We can forget gate sharing as it's never going to happen anyway. Everyone has to compromise but this is one area that would be beyond compromise for Celtic.

Genuine question for supporters of a 16 team league - how do you see this working?

Ideally I like the idea of a 16 team league, fewer games, more teams to play against but I don't see how it actually improves things in terms of quality of matches we'll be watching or quality of player who'll be in the SPL? I actually see these two things going down in quality.

Doesn't need to be a 50/50 split. Even a 10% split to cover the costs of the travelling team. That would help other clubs become more competitive which is always Celtic's complaint over them not having any competition.

[Bill Milne]

That 9-3 was on the table and Sevco Mirren knocked it back is shameful. Not happy. Something aint right about this.

Yes, this was the supposed reason why Stewart Gilmour opposed the restructuring. The prescence of Chucky Green at the St Mirren v Celtic game seems much clearer in the light of yesterday's events. Shameful if Gilmour is pursuing an agenda on behalf of Sevco!!

[Saorsa]

Doesn't need to be a 50/50 split. Even a 10% split to cover the costs of the travelling team. That would help other clubs become more competitive which is always Celtic's complaint over them not having any competition.Nowt mair than a convenient smoke screen for when they get knocked out of Europe, blame the rest of the game in Scotland. A game they (along with the stickes) are largely responsible for ruining while of course being allowed tae do so by the others bending over for them. Does anybody actually believe they want competition?

[PatHead]

Yes, this was the supposed reason why Stewart Gilmour opposed the restructuring. The prescence of Chucky Green at the St Mirren v Celtic game seems much clearer in the light of yesterday's events. Shameful if Gilmour is pursuing an agenda on behalf of Sevco!!

The only offer for a 9/3 split was in relation to league re-construction not anything else. Not surprised that Gilmour knocked that back. He wants 9-3 to apply to most votes so that Sevco/Celtic agenda is not perpetuated in a few years if Sevco ever make it back.

[CelticEnd]

Nowt mair than a convenient smoke screen for when they get knocked out of Europe, blame the rest of the game in Scotland. A game they are largely responsible (along with the stickes) for ruining. Does anybody actually believe they want competition?

Serious question but how have Celtic ruined Scottish football? I honestly don't really see it? I think they could now do more to try and improve the game but I don't see much they've done that's sabotaged other clubs like Dundee, Hearts, Kilmarnock etc all of whom are now financial basket cases?

I get the point about buying players from other SPL teams but that's just life... Also transfer fees paid for these players (Phil O'Donnell at Motherwell, Brown at Hibs etc) have went a long way to helping paying for stadium improvements for these clubs?

[HibsNibs]

We can forget gate sharing as it's never going to happen anyway. Everyone has to compromise but this is one area that would be beyond compromise for Celtic.

It happened before, it can happen again. If celtc don't like it let them play in a league where the rules are more to their liking. I like the sound of the SBL comprising sevco, celtc, sevco colts & celtc colts.

The rest of us can then have a competitive 20,20 set up home & away once a season, 3 up, 3 down, play off for 4th promotion/relegation spot. This is what would happen anyway if the OF ever achieved their wet dream of moving to England.

[CelticEnd]

It happened before, it can happen again. If celtc don't like it let them play in a league where the rules are more to their liking. I like the sound of the SBL comprising sevco, celtc, sevco colts & celtc colts.

The rest of us can then have a competitive 20,20 set up home & away once a season, 3 up, 3 down, play off for 4th promotion/relegation spot. This is what would happen anyway if the OF ever achieved their wet dream of moving to England.

That's not a really helpful attitude. The rules are the rules and gate sharing is not part of the rules. All the clubs agreed to the rules so pointing the finger at Celtic doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny?

Celtic are not going to England either next year, the year after or anytime in the foreseeable future so we call have to work together to try and improve the game here.

I think Celtics actions in the last year have shown a willingness to make sacrifices that are beneficial to all.

[greenginger]

Doesn't really matter.

If 35,000 turn up at Celtic Park for a game and we've sold 40,000 season tickets and 5,000 other tickets the gate to be shared is still 45,000 even though only 35,000 are in attendance.

We can forget gate sharing as it's never going to happen anyway. Everyone has to compromise but this is one area that would be beyond compromise for Celtic.

Genuine question for supporters of a 16 team league - how do you see this working?

Ideally I like the idea of a 16 team league, fewer games, more teams to play against but I don't see how it actually improves things in terms of quality of matches we'll be watching or quality of player who'll be in the SPL? I actually see these two things going down in quality.

How would a 16 team league work ?. Try the Polish model starting next season.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/europe/12302-poland-s-ekstraklasa-revamps-its-league-structure-for-2013-14-season

Fans are fed up seeing the same teams twice a season. The chairmen just don't listen to fans, the only people with their ear is the TV companies and sponsors.

[Bill Milne]

The only offer for a 9/3 split was in relation to league re-construction not anything else. Not surprised that Gilmour knocked that back. He wants 9-3 to apply to most votes so that Sevco/Celtic agenda is not perpetuated in a few years if Sevco ever make it back.

Which makes Stewart Milne's outrage all the more inexplicable as he had the chance to bury this voting structure in a previous vote and sided with Celtic to maintain the status quo.

[CelticEnd]

How would a 16 team league work ?. Try the Polish model starting next season.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/europe/12302-poland-s-ekstraklasa-revamps-its-league-structure-for-2013-14-season

Fans are fed up seeing the same teams twice a season. The chairmen just don't listen to fans, the only people with their ear is the TV companies and sponsors.

That looks decent enough mate and is the best idea at making a 16 team league work that I've seen.

Anytime I've heard people talking about 16 team league they've talked about making up extra games with an extended league cup etc which is nonsense.

I'd be happy if Scottish football adopted that structure that the Poles are going for.

[HibsNibs]

The rules are the rules and gate sharing is not part of the rules. All the clubs agreed to the rules so pointing the finger at Celtic doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny?

Rules can & should change if it benefits the league as a whole. Scottish football is a joke because 2 clubs out of 42 have about 70% of the resources.

[davcar]

Fans maybe fed up seeing the same teams 3 or 4 times a season but until stadiums across the SPL are bursting at the seems each week, then of course the chairmen will listen to TV companies and sponsors cash to keep books balanced! If stadiums were full then they could maybe have more say to TV's better choices in sponsors and possibly better players on view, creating a better product!

Until then we the fans will be the last consideration when TV change fixture dates to suit their schedules.

[greenginger]

That looks decent enough mate and is the best idea at making a 16 team league work that I've seen.

Anytime I've heard people talking about 16 team league they've talked about making up extra games with an extended league cup etc which is nonsense.

I'd be happy if Scottish football adopted that structure that the Poles are going for.

So would I, but probably too late for next season so the way the Polish league works next season should be monitored closely.

May'be even get our thick as a brick sports journos to give this league set-up a little coverage.

[CelticEnd]

Rules can & should change if it benefits the league as a whole. Scottish football is a joke because 2 clubs out of 42 have about 70% of the resources.

I agree that TV money should be split more evenly as should prize money but Celtic fans pay to go and watch Celtic therefore they should keep their own gate receipts.

[HibsNibs]

I agree that TV money should be split more evenly as should prize money but Celtic fans pay to go and watch Celtic therefore they should keep their own gate receipts.

Thus perpetuating the current system that is completely out of balance and in crisis.

[McSwanky]

Doesn't really matter.

If 35,000 turn up at Celtic Park for a game and we've sold 40,000 season tickets and 5,000 other tickets the gate to be shared is still 45,000 even though only 35,000 are in attendance.

We can forget gate sharing as it's never going to happen anyway. Everyone has to compromise but this is one area that would be beyond compromise for Celtic.

Genuine question for supporters of a 16 team league - how do you see this working?

Ideally I like the idea of a 16 team league, fewer games, more teams to play against but I don't see how it actually improves things in terms of quality of matches we'll be watching or quality of player who'll be in the SPL? I actually see these two things going down in quality.

I see what we have here. A selective reply merchant.

Let's be clear here, I'm not necessarily a supporter of a 16-team league, I'm in favour of every team having a say in how things are done. And that means everyone. From the top of the tree right down to aspiring lower division/non-league teams.

We can't get away from the fact that Celtic and Rangers are always going to be the two main forces in Scottish Football, in whatever guise they take at any one time, as they draw the most fans by far (I'm not going to go into why I think they have the most fans, but I'm sure most semi-inteligent people can read between the lines). There is no way, however, that they should hold as much power as they have done for the last decade or however long.

I have no problem with bigger teams having a greater say than smaller teams, but the setup just now is ridiculous.

Off the top of my head, single league body for the whole of Scotland, and vote weighting based on average attendance (police figures...)? With a majority needed to carry through any motion, no matter how big or small?

Anyways, 11-1 should have been knocked on the head the day after Rangers spiralled out of existence. Any club that stood in the way of getting shot of that system shoudl be ashamed of themselves.

[rubber mal]

Stewart Milne and Celtic were the only ones to vote to keep the status quo.[/B]

As much as I'd like to get on board with all the Stewart Milne bashing, I still haven't seen any hard evidence of this vote to keep 11-1 that he is accused of.

Is this FACT or just a rumour?

[CelticEnd]

I see what we have here. A selective reply merchant.

Let's be clear here, I'm not necessarily a supporter of a 16-team league, I'm in favour of every team having a say in how things are done. And that means everyone. From the top of the tree right down to aspiring lower division/non-league teams.

We can't get away from the fact that Celtic and Rangers are always going to be the two main forces in Scottish Football, in whatever guise they take at any one time, as they draw the most fans by far (I'm not going to go into why I think they have the most fans, but I'm sure most semi-inteligent people can read between the lines). There is no way, however, that they should hold as much power as they have done for the last decade or however long.

I have no problem with bigger teams having a greater say than smaller teams, but the setup just now is ridiculous.

Off the top of my head, single league body for the whole of Scotland, and vote weighting based on average attendance (police figures...)? With a majority needed to carry through any motion, no matter how big or small?

Anyways, 11-1 should have been knocked on the head the day after Rangers spiralled out of existence. Any club that stood in the way of getting shot of that system shoudl be ashamed of themselves.

I like that idea of the votes based on attendance figures but if that actually happens then it gives Celtic and Sevco the chance to vote anything down between the two of them which again is wrong.

I agree there is too big a gap between Celtic and the rest and it's not healthy. Sharing gates isn't very likely to happen so is there anything else that can be done?

I've already listed a few ideas:

1. Fans get to keep their own gate when they visit Celtic Park... therefore if Hibs take 6,000 fans then Hibs get that money minus expenses for stewarding/policing.

2. Celtic to share the wealth of the Champions League with the rest of the SPL. If Celtic get into the CL group stages and get the market share from UEFA then they should forego any SPL prize money/TV money for that season.

3. 11/1 to be done away with and the only area protected under 11/1 is home gate receipts. Everything else should only require eight votes for change.

Three things that off the top of my head I'd be very happy if Celtic agreed to...

One radical idea I thought about was doing 12/12 but resetting the points of the top 8 after the split.

Positives of this would be:

* A 14 game sprint for the title which would give more chance of someone upsetting Celtic
* Teams who are in Europe can rest players in the first half of the season as they only really need to finish top 8.

Negatives would be:

* Lots of more or less meaningless fixtures in the first half of the season
* Very hard to sell the first half of the season to fans.

Just thinking out loud but you could even do a seeding after the split...

ie: team who are top at the split start with 16points and it goes down two points every place after that?

[danhibees1875]

That looks decent enough mate and is the best idea at making a 16 team league work that I've seen.

Anytime I've heard people talking about 16 team league they've talked about making up extra games with an extended league cup etc which is nonsense.

I'd be happy if Scottish football adopted that structure that the Poles are going for.

I agree with a lot of what you've said and specifically like your idea of away teams getting the away gate receipts (I agree that a 50/50 split wouldn't be fair)

As a fan of 16,16,pyramid set-up with extending the league cup I'd be interested to know what makes it nonsense in your eyes?

Having a group stage to the competition where it was seeded with with say, as an example, 8 groups of 4 (2 in each group from the top division and 2 made up from previous qualifying rounds between the second 16 and non-league clubs) would fill up the extra games missing from the league and provide lower league/non-league clubs the money of playing 4 games against a 'top league' club.

[CelticEnd]

Having a group stage to the competition where it was seeded with with say, as an example, 8 groups of 4 (2 in each group from the top division and 2 made up from previous qualifying rounds between the second 16 and non-league clubs) would fill up the extra games missing from the league and provide lower league/non-league clubs the money of playing 4 games against a 'top league' club.

League Cup doesn't even carry a European place and attendances for it are dire at the moment and I don't see that changing if it goes to a group stage.

Season tickets would be a hard sell if it was 15 league games and 3 group games of a league cup IMO.

The guy who posted the link to the Poles plan for a 16 team league is onto something and although I worry 16 teams is too much I'd quite like to give it a go.

[Beefster]

As much as I'd like to get on board with all the Stewart Milne bashing, I still haven't seen any hard evidence of this vote to keep 11-1 that he is accused of.

Is this FACT or just a rumour?

This is the closest to what's being circulated that I've found but this talks about delaying a vote rather than voting against it.

http://sport.stv.tv/blog/196856-why-aberdeen-joined-celtic-in-delaying-change-to-the-spl-voting-structure/

[down-the-slope]

Is there any chance of LWT asking the club to explain their stance on league reconstruction and the reasons why the support wasn't consulted unlike the Sevco debacle?

:agree: I think it would be remiss of us not to keep posing questions - while I do know some of the reasons (as we had in depth conversations aroun finances / TV / Sevco etc etc and this was to try and solve some of these)...I don't claim to know it all by any stretch

I found it interesting when either Dodds or Preston (canny mind which one) were on Radio on way back from Semi - they said they had spent 40/50 minutes talking with someone who knew all the ins and outs - and having been explained it all they had changed view from thinking it was a bad idea to a decent enough in the circumstances. Their conclusion was that the PR has been shocking in getting the important messages across.....if thats the case (which I suspect it is from what I know) it shocking that on something so important the case cant be made well enough...

Don't have time right now to explain any more than I've tried....BUT 11v1 DOES NOT EXIST......the league articles are written with 3 categoriess of voting each with different % of vote required.... bigger issues higher % etc...suggest folks actually read them before inventing an interpretation :aok:

[Saorsa]

:agree: I think it would be remiss of us not to keep posing questions - while I do know some of the reasons (as we had in depth conversations aroun finances / TV / Sevco etc etc and this was to try and solve some of these)...I don't claim to know it all by any stretch

I found it interesting when either Dodds or Preston (canny mind which one) were on Radio on way back from Semi - they said they had spent 40/50 minutes talking with someone who knew all the ins and outs - and having been explained it all they had changed view from thinking it was a bad idea to a decent enough in the circumstances. Their conclusion was that the PR has been shocking in getting the important messages across.....if thats the case (which I suspect it is from what I know) it shocking that on something so important the case cant be made well enough...

Don't have time right now to explain any more than I've tried....BUT 11v1 DOES NOT EXIST......the league articles are written with 3 categoriess of voting each with different % of vote required.... bigger issues higher % etc...suggest folks actually read them before inventing an interpretation :aok:Maybe somebody ( maybe you? :greengrin ) should mention that tae dungcaster then, he disnae seem tae ken either as he talks of 11-1 & 9-3 and he's the CEO :wink:

Halfway through the meeting a major concession was made to take the threshold down from 11-1 to 9-3 for any future change. It may be written in the rules in terms of % but it amounts tae the same thing, it's still a certain number of clubs. 90% needs 11 clubs tae carry it through so who cares how it's written in the rules, it is effectively 11-1 however you want tae dress it up. It's ridiculous that anything needs a majority like that and that two clubs can effectively block what the other ten want. This time though it has backfired, particularly on those who wanted it kept and it serves them right.

Two clubs that used the 11-1/90% voting system tae keep it in place have the brass neck tae complain when two other clubs use it for their own ends :hilarious Hypocrisy, a game the whole SPL can play :agree:

[down-the-slope]

Maybe somebody ( maybe you? :greengrin ) should mention that tae dungcaster then, he disnae seem tae ken either as he talks of 11-1 & 9-3 and he's the CEO :wink:
It may be written in the rules in terms of % but it amounts tae the same thing, it's still a certain number of clubs. 90% needs 11 clubs tae carry it through so who cares how it's written in the rules, it is effectively 11-1 however you want tae dress it up. It's ridiculous that anything needs a majority like that and that two clubs can effectively block what the other ten want. This time though it has backfired, particularly on those who wanted it kept and it serves them right.

Two clubs that used the 11-1/90% voting system tae keep it in place have the brass neck tae complain when two other clubs use it for their own ends :hilarious Hypocrisy, a game the whole SPL can play :agree:

Last bit :agree:

well done for reading...you are now more informed than most on here :greengrin so you now know how there are various levels of vote and % which makes things so darn complicated...stuff being CEO / admin that have to try and get all these self interested Chairmen to agree on anything...(wonder how they agree of biscuits for coffee....Jam Tarts? (No Rod) Blue Ribband (No Lawell) Orange Creams (No Lawell again) )

I think as most articles are meant to last the passage of time the % are there so that size of league could change without the need to re-write the articles

[Saorsa]

Last bit :agree:

well done for reading...you are now more informed than most on here :greengrin so you now know how there are various levels of vote and % which makes things so darn complicated...stuff being CEO / admin that have to try and get all these self interested Chairmen to agree on anything...(wonder how they agree of biscuits for coffee....Jam Tarts? (No Rod) Blue Ribband (No Lawell) Orange Creams (No Lawell again) )

I think as most articles are meant to last the passage of time the % are there so that size of league could change without the need to re-write the articlesAs big Hamish said

"a nest of scheming *******s who couldnae agree on the colour of *****" :agree:

The current league structure winnae kill the game, the new one wouldnae have saved it. It's the self interest that will continue tae dae the damage IMO.


anyhoo I'm off for now. :aok:

[Eyrie]

That Polish proposal looks bizarre with an odd number of games and meaningless matches if you're not close enough for Europe or already safe from relegation. I don't get the love for it given that the 12-12-18 proposal had so many detractors.

We saw last year with the Dunfermline game that what the ordinary fans want is meaningful matches, regardless of the league size. So could someone in favour of a 16 or 18 team league explain to me what the attendances will be like from February onwards for the mid-table teams? Who will turn out to see a team in twelfth (but relatively safe from relegation) playing a team in seventh (but with little chance of making the European places)?

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

I come in peace but I've got my tin hat on to cope with the flak. Thanks to the moderators for approving me despite my monicker denoting that I'm a Tim.

Congratulations on your come back on Saturday. Brilliant game and I hope that the final is as good as the two semis. I'm well aware that a sizeable number of Hibs fans hate Celtic but I'm glad to see that there are some who don't feel that way. I've always had a lot of time for Hibs mainly due to my experiences when encountering Hibs supporters at games when I was a young ghuy.

When I was about 14 I went to a League Cup semi final at Ibrox between Hibs and Celtic. My mate and I arrived just after Kick off and everyone around us was singing Sean South. We joined in and in the middle of the song Neil Martin headed Hibs into the lead and everyone went mental. We were in the Hibs end. The game ended 2-2 (Martin scored a second) but the Hibs guys looked after us throughout the game. I had similar experiences ta other games and before anyone accuses me of being deluded I don't think that there is any special relationship betwee the supporters of today but first impressions are lasting impressions.
I've also got strong (recently developed) family ties to Leith and I spend about 3 days a week visiting the place and have got a flavour of how passionate Hibees are for their team.

I've been to about three All Green finals. I can't understand why either team has to change their strip. Hibs beat us 2-1 (League Cup Final?) and we beat Hibs 6-3 (SCF) and we both wore our normal strips. I was also at the last final Celtic in Yelloe and Hibs in white tops - I hope that won't be repeated but it probably will.

What I hope to see is a mutual respect for the anthems. Most Celtic fans love hearing you lot singing Sunshine on Leith and I'm sure sure it won't be interrupted and I hope the same thing will happen with YNWA. After that battle can commence between the teams.

For what it's worth a lot of Tims think that your name might be on the Cup but I hope not. But one thing is for sure you'll be able to celebrate in Glasgow without any hassle from our fans.

I'll try not to bother you in the future but I hope I can lurk.

[Mikey]

Thanks to the moderators for approving me despite my monicker denoting that I'm a Tim.



A quick word of warning. You're not allowed to call Tim's Tims on here.

It's too Hunnish :greengrin

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Mikey

I saw that was being debated on here the other night. We started calling ourselves Tims (Tim Malloys) rhyming slang for The Bhoys and also the name of an Irish street gang apparently in Glasgow around 1900. Thems don't call us Tims. It's too nice a name for us. The prefer calling us Taigs, Fenians, Mickeys, **** etc.

Just for clarification.

[down-the-slope]

A quick word of warning. You're not allowed to call Tim's Tims on here.

It's too Hunnish :greengrin


What about Goblins? references to these still allowed (or not when sober :greengrin)

Edit

Hello Sadie & Cheerio Dan

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Regarding reconstruction quite a number of Celtic fans have suggested that away teams at Parkhead be allowed to keep the money that their own fans pay come and see their team. For most games there aren't a huge number of away fans. Aberdeen , Hibs, Huns and Diet Huns normally bring big supports. There would be an incentive for away fans to attend - helping their teams financially and giving them vocal backing and it would add to the atmosphere at the games.

[Sir David Gray]

I come in peace but I've got my tin hat on to cope with the flak. Thanks to the moderators for approving me despite my monicker denoting that I'm a Tim.

Congratulations on your come back on Saturday. Brilliant game and I hope that the final is as good as the two semis. I'm well aware that a sizeable number of Hibs fans hate Celtic but I'm glad to see that there are some who don't feel that way. I've always had a lot of time for Hibs mainly due to my experiences when encountering Hibs supporters at games when I was a young ghuy.

When I was about 14 I went to a League Cup semi final at Ibrox between Hibs and Celtic. My mate and I arrived just after Kick off and everyone around us was singing Sean South. We joined in and in the middle of the song Neil Martin headed Hibs into the lead and everyone went mental. We were in the Hibs end. The game ended 2-2 (Martin scored a second) but the Hibs guys looked after us throughout the game. I had similar experiences ta other games and before anyone accuses me of being deluded I don't think that there is any special relationship betwee the supporters of today but first impressions are lasting impressions.
I've also got strong (recently developed) family ties to Leith and I spend about 3 days a week visiting the place and have got a flavour of how passionate Hibees are for their team.

I've been to about three All Green finals. I can't understand why either team has to change their strip. Hibs beat us 2-1 (League Cup Final?) and we beat Hibs 6-3 (SCF) and we both wore our normal strips. I was also at the last final Celtic in Yelloe and Hibs in white tops - I hope that won't be repeated but it probably will.

What I hope to see is a mutual respect for the anthems. Most Celtic fans love hearing you lot singing Sunshine on Leith and I'm sure sure it won't be interrupted and I hope the same thing will happen with YNWA. After that battle can commence between the teams.

For what it's worth a lot of Tims think that your name might be on the Cup but I hope not. But one thing is for sure you'll be able to celebrate in Glasgow without any hassle from our fans.

I'll try not to bother you in the future but I hope I can lurk.

Two points;

1-What has the above got to do with league reconstruction?

and

2-Do Celtic fans just do it for a laugh or are they actually aware of how annoying all this "ghuys" and "ghirls" stuff is? Or is it actually just another case of a word that they can't spell?

Actually, I've got a third point.

Hope we annihilate you lot on 26th May. :bye:

PS-I don't see us booing YNWA. Why would we have anything against a Liverpool song? :confused:

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

FalkirkHibee

I'm glad you replied. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't. You were the guy (I can spell) who was telling everybody that any stray Tim you met in the Hibs end would be sorry. I'll bet there are a few of your fellow Hibs fans who would be sorry too after spending time in your company.

I'm aware that my post might be out of place in a discussion about League construction but since I'm a newcomer to the site I wasn't sure where to post to be honest. I normally post on CelticQuickNews which is constructed differently and doesn't have a multi thread format.

Save yourself the bother of replying to me as I will be ignoring you. I'm aware that I'm a visitor and I don't want to upset anyone on here.

[Scouse Hibee]

FalkirkHibee

I'm glad you replied. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't. You were the guy (I can spell) who was telling everybody that any stray Tim you met in the Hibs end would be sorry. I'll bet there are a few of your fellow Hibs fans who would be sorry too after spending time in your company.

I'm aware that my post might be out of place in a discussion about League construction but since I'm a newcomer to the site I wasn't sure where to post to be honest. I normally post on CelticQuickNews which is constructed differently and doesn't have a multi thread format.

Save yourself the bother of replying to me as I will be ignoring you. I'm aware that I'm a visitor and I don't want to upset anyone on here.


Awrite pal, welcome aboard nice to hear your side of the story so to speak. YNWA only sounds right when it's sung at Anfield, apart from that I have no problem. :greengrin

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Scouse Hibee

No debate from me that Liverpool were the first to sing the song but I'm afraid we do it better. Ask Peter Schmeicel (sp). He presents a Danish programme on Liverpool games. He told the chip wrappers that they show the Liverpool fans singing YNWA but it's actually the Celtic fans who are singing. :wink:

Anyway both clubs do it well and when we met in 2003 in the EUFA cup with Gerry Marsden on the pitch tit was excellent.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Oops 'tit' ='it'

[Scouse Hibee]

Scouse Hibee

No debate from me that Liverpool were the first to sing the song but I'm afraid we do it better. Ask Peter Schmeicel (sp). He presents a Danish programme on Liverpool games. He told the chip wrappers that they show the Liverpool fans singing YNWA but it's actually the Celtic fans who are singing. :wink:

Anyway both clubs do it well and when we met in 2003 in the EUFA cup with Gerry Marsden on the pitch tit was excellent.


:faf: mate that's the funniest and most possibly the boldest claim I've ever heard from a Celtic fan. Whenever I've been at your place it sounds like a poor imitation, yous just can't get the accent right!

[HibeeN]

This is going to get interesting :greengrin

[The Harp Awakes]

Regarding reconstruction quite a number of Celtic fans have suggested that away teams at Parkhead be allowed to keep the money that their own fans pay come and see their team. For most games there aren't a huge number of away fans. Aberdeen , Hibs, Huns and Diet Huns normally bring big supports. There would be an incentive for away fans to attend - helping their teams financially and giving them vocal backing and it would add to the atmosphere at the games.

Not a bad idea. Most Scottish clubs outside the OF, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen would hate it though. What it would do is give Clubs more of an incentive to bring an away support to games as you say.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

All I'll say is that The Kop started it but The Jungle made it truly famous! The scouse accent is dead hard to do anyway. Some of you sound dead hard (Yossir Hughes) and some sound dead squeaky and high pitched (Emlyn Hughes) also Jamie Carragher although I love him to bits. What a defender!

[Scouse Hibee]

All I'll say is that The Kop started it but The Jungle made it truly famous! The scouse accent is dead hard to do anyway. Some of you sound dead hard (Yossir Hughes) and some sound dead squeaky and high pitched (Emlyn Hughes) also Jamie Carragher although I love him to bits. What a defender!

:faf: Mate you must be a comedian in your spare time, the jungle isn't even famous outside Glasgow let alone them singing YNWA lol.

Anyway I don't want to drag this thread off topic so stick around and I'll educate you sometime soon on the delusions you have :greengrin

Aw the best :aok:

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Scouse Hibee

I'm returning to the mothership CQN. You remain in your parallel universe. Catch up with you another time.

Cheers.

[CropleyWasGod]

All I'll say is that The Kop started it but The Jungle made it truly famous! The scouse accent is dead hard to do anyway. Some of you sound dead hard (Yossir Hughes) and some sound dead squeaky and high pitched (Emlyn Hughes) also Jamie Carragher although I love him to bits. What a defender!

I think Rodgers and Hammerstein might disagree with you there.

[Pete]

Lttf

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

CropleyWasGod

Great player, Alex Cropley. I was meaning LFC started singing YNWA at football matches. I know all about Carousel and R&H.

I'm in my 60s - an old ghuy (just to annoy the bloke from Falkirk). I can still remember watching that Hibs team. They played great football and had an excellent record against us. McArthur, Brownlie, Black (used to babysit for my brother while he was still a Hibs player), Stanton and Blackley, Edwards, Gordon, Duncan, Cropley, O'Rourke, Harper etc. A pleasure to watch.

[CropleyWasGod]

CropleyWasGod

Great player, Alex Cropley. I was meaning LFC started singing YNWA at football matches. I know all about Carousel and R&H.

I'm in my 60s - an old ghuy (just to annoy the bloke from Falkirk). I can still remember watching that Hibs team. They played great football and had an excellent record against us. McArthur, Brownlie, Black (used to babysit for my brother while he was still a Hibs player), Stanton and Blackley, Edwards, Gordon, Duncan, Cropley, O'Rourke, Harper etc. A pleasure to watch.

Cheers :greengrin You were doing really well until that last name :greengrin

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

I remember a game at Parkhead against Hibs who were having a great spell. 60,000 crowd. Hibs won 1-0 through Harper. he did the same thing again the following season in identical circumstances for Aberdeen. he also scored 4 for Morton at Parkhead to ruin out title celebration. He was a wee nyaff but he was a helluva player.

[CropleyWasGod]

I remember a game at Parkhead against Hibs who were having a great spell. 60,000 crowd. Hibs won 1-0 through Harper. he did the same thing again the following season in identical circumstances for Aberdeen. he also scored 4 for Morton at Parkhead to ruin out title celebration. He was a wee nyaff but he was a helluva player.

Right enough. He scored 3 for us against you in a League Cup Final.........:wink:


shame you scored 6.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

I don't think Joey liked the Celtic! He was fat and round and worth a million pound etc. :not worth

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Getting back to League reconstruction, apparently an SPL chairman spoke off the record to a group of journalists saying that he believed that the SPL clubs were being led by "the f****** Celtic". Effen Celtic - they must play in the Bundeslig.

[Iggy Pope]

FalkirkHibee

I'm glad you replied. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't. You were the guy (I can spell) who was telling everybody that any stray Tim you met in the Hibs end would be sorry. I'll bet there are a few of your fellow Hibs fans who would be sorry too after spending time in your company.
I'm aware that my post might be out of place in a discussion about League construction but since I'm a newcomer to the site I wasn't sure where to post to be honest. I normally post on CelticQuickNews which is constructed differently and doesn't have a multi thread format.

Save yourself the bother of replying to me as I will be ignoring you. I'm aware that I'm a visitor and I don't want to upset anyone on here.

:greengrin

You should have clocked up a couple of thousand posts first stating the bleeding obvious, maybe giving us meaningless stats and updates from SkySports. Then you can stray off topic and spraff as much garbage as you want. I enjoyed your reminiscing SB, but you'll need a thick skin. Some sorts won't care too much about you coming in peace.
I'll give you a wee example - we had a thread on here promoting an event that took place recently commemerating our origins. It was largely ignored and dwarfed by responses to another thread, same day, that centred on slagging off your clubs singing section.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

HamiltonHandling

Thanks for the warning. I'll only be posting occasionally. As I said earlier I don't want to annoy anyone or wind anyone up. I have a genuine affection for Hibs and many years ago I turned up at a couple of Hibs games that didn't involve us. A 2-0 win at Fir Park in which Cormack had just broken through into Hibs first team and much later I remember a game at Love Street, 3-2 for Hibs, when Bremner and Higgins were playing and McGarvey and Fitzpatrick for Fergie's St. mirren.

I'll be in Leith tomorrow. I'll be the Tim in the tin hat with the hooped Kevlar vest.

[Pete]

All I'll say is that The Kop started it but The Jungle made it truly famous! The scouse accent is dead hard to do anyway. Some of you sound dead hard (Yossir Hughes) and some sound dead squeaky and high pitched (Emlyn Hughes) also Jamie Carragher although I love him to bits. What a defender!

I'm all for you coming in peace but I'm totally with the scouser on this one. I can't believe you have the cheek to tell him that HE is living in a parallel universe!!

That song belongs to Liverpool FC anywhere outside of Scotland....The only people who recognise it as a Celtic song are Celtic fans.

Originality is most definitely not the specialty of Celtic FC. No offence but most of what you do on the terraces is simply a re-hash of what others have done before...which is sort of keeping in tune with the whole ethos of your club.
When other clubs copy something they wouldn't dare try and claim it as their own or re-name it to insinuate that this song or bounce has undergone some improvement because they have adopted it.

...and again, no offence but can I ask where you are from?

If you don't live in Glasgow or aren't a Glaswegian you can **** off...and if every celtic fan who said their dad came from the East end of Glasgow was telling the truth then there must have been some geographical miracle happening.

However, I pretty much agree with what Hamilton Handling has to say. You can read between the lines on that one and I hope you don't get put off.

...welcome to the board. Even huns are welcome here as we are a truly inclusive institution. Watch and learn!:thumbsup:

[lapsedhibee]

Even huns are welcome here as we are a truly inclusive institution.

Odd yams as well.

Thinking of which, not heard from Shaun Lawson for a while. Did the admin pricks ban him? :dunno:

[Pete]

Odd yams as well.

Thinking of which, not heard from Shaun Lawson for a while. Did the admin pricks ban him? :dunno:

Don't think so.

Most of them just disappear up their own arse and can be found on kickback being bitter about hibs.

[Beefster]

:agree: I think it would be remiss of us not to keep posing questions - while I do know some of the reasons (as we had in depth conversations aroun finances / TV / Sevco etc etc and this was to try and solve some of these)...I don't claim to know it all by any stretch

I found it interesting when either Dodds or Preston (canny mind which one) were on Radio on way back from Semi - they said they had spent 40/50 minutes talking with someone who knew all the ins and outs - and having been explained it all they had changed view from thinking it was a bad idea to a decent enough in the circumstances. Their conclusion was that the PR has been shocking in getting the important messages across.....if thats the case (which I suspect it is from what I know) it shocking that on something so important the case cant be made well enough...

Don't have time right now to explain any more than I've tried....BUT 11v1 DOES NOT EXIST......the league articles are written with 3 categoriess of voting each with different % of vote required.... bigger issues higher % etc...suggest folks actually read them before inventing an interpretation :aok:

Thanks DTS. I think it's important that the club engage the wider support with all the important decisions, not just the ones they can spin into a positive.

As for the 11-1 thing, I think you may arguing semantics there. A %age that results in an 11-1 majority being required is still an 11-1 vote!

[s.a.m]

St Mirren's statement:

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22582

Club Statement – League ReconstructionApril 16, 2013 By admin (http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?author=1)
http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/stadium_tour-300x140.jpgFurther to yesterday’s SPL Club meeting held at Hampden Park, St Mirren FC is extremely disappointed by the comments of certain clubs’ representatives and some journalists towards our club and seeks to clarify our position.
We made it perfectly clear in our statement issued last week that we were against the league structure proposed and also that of the proposed 11-1 voting system. It would appear that certain individuals have tried to move this round to being only an objection to the voting structure. Please read our statement of last Monday (see below*) for clarity of this. Both of these items were our primary issues with the proposals.
The following resolutions are described as Qualified Resolutions in the proposed rules and require an 11-1 vote to change:-
- Retaining home gate receipts
- League restructuring
- Distribution model of finance
- Squad size
- Under 21 rules
- Season start date
- Numbers of home live TV matches
- Salary capping
You will probably be aware that during the meeting a proposal to change one of these Resolutions, namely the League Restructuring section, was brought to the table by two clubs who suggested reducing this to a 75% majority ie 9-3.
As this was only part of the Qualified Resolutions this was not acceptable to St Mirren. The items in this section require to be changed completely to a 9-3 level of voting, excepting the retention of home gate receipts which would be totally unfair to the larger clubs. We are also happy to contract that no club shall have more live home TV matches than anyone else.
This democratic set up in the SPL is one that has been in place since its inception and has proved not to be fit for purpose, hence our objection to it. It is ironic that this is what has stopped the proposal going forward.
However, clubs have the right to vote as they see fit and directors have a legal responsibility to look after the interests of their club, a criticism that appears to be directed towards St Mirren. It should be highlighted that Aberdeen could have indeed changed this voting structure last year had they seen fit to vote with their fellow clubs. That is their decision and we respect that, however before being critical of others they should possibly take stock of their previous decision not to allow this change to go forward.
While on the subject of criticism, we find it hard to accept other Football Clubs telling us how to vote on football matters, or indeed questioning our motives. It is the right of all Clubs to make their own decisions and other Clubs should respect this.
We are being accused of self interest. Is that the self interest in consulting with our supporters and staff prior to the board making this decision? If so, we are guilty. We are very grateful for all the messages of support we have received not just from our own fans but also from supporters of many other clubs who did not wish this proposal to go ahead. We firmly believe in our heart and in our head that this is the correct decision for Scottish Football.
St Mirren Football Club are still intent on change in Scottish Football within a system for all 42 clubs. We wish to make it very clear that we have no SPL 2 agenda. We believe that that is not the way forward.
It should be noted that at the start of yesterday’s meeting we asked clubs to consider revisiting the proposal before the meeting. Our suggestion was that we looked at the following compromise;
- One League Body
- All Through Financial Distribution Model
- Introducing a Play Off Place
- A Voting Structure of 75% of the Top League Clubs having to agree.
(Subject to an agreement re home gates and the number of home live TV matches)
Some clubs were willing to discuss this and hopefully come to a compromise.
Regrettably this was rejected by a majority of clubs who wished to only stick to the all or nothing proposal.
There have been suggestions of influence on our Board by other clubs. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Board of St Mirren has only the interests of St Mirren and Scottish Football at the centre of their attention.
Finally, St Mirren FC hope that all 42 Clubs can get round the table in the very near future to progress the formation of one league body and the all through financial distribution model as the first steps to finding the best league format to encompass the views of Clubs, supporters, sponsors and all other people involved in Scottish Football.
On behalf of the Board of Directors of St Mirren Football Club
************************************************** ****************
League Restructure – Statement 8th April 2013*
After a very studied consideration of the Structure, Articles of Association, Rules and Shareholders Agreement, the Board of St Mirren Football Club have decided that they will be unable to support the motion at next Monday’s Meeting of SPL Clubs regarding this proposal for League Reconstruction.
This view has been taken after careful thought regarding this proposal including engagement with fans and the views of our coaching staff.
The principles of a new league structure, single league body and all through distribution model are part of many aspects of this we fully support, however the proposal as presented does not, in our view, move the game forward.
The concept of playing 22 games prior to breaking into three leagues of eight, including the middle eight losing their points gained in the first series of games, is not a system we see as taking the game forward in the long term. You will be aware that other countries have tried this system and have since rejected such a set up.
We also feel that this system is not fair to fans who buy into their club by way of a season ticket, who are then unsure of what they are purchasing. It is also against the basic wishes of the fans for larger leagues as highlighted in all recent fan surveys.
In the proposed rules the voting structure is remaining, in all items that are of importance, an 11-1 vote. In our opinion, this is fundamentally wrong in any structure and is the principle reason why Scottish League Football has not been able to restructure prior to this time, a view St Mirren have held for some time.
The restriction on any change for three years is also very much against our view. When engaging with any new rule book there will always be oversight and anomalies that need to be revised on an annual basis.
An area St Mirren are very uncomfortable with is the lock down on various financial rules. The credibility of Scottish Football has been tarnished badly in recent times by financial mismanagement and the time has come for strong financial rules to be in place.
Another concern to us is the hard line taken by some in certain areas, like season start date, home-grown talent, under-21 rules. This is not an exhaustive list, however we do think these items require negotiation for the betterment of Scottish Football in general.
We also do not accept that this is a take it or leave it situation. We do wish to keep working towards one organisation, an all through distribution model and getting closer to our supporters’ wishes of a larger league, while being fully aware of the commercial and financial pressures of operating a football club.
On behalf of the Board of Directors of St Mirren Football Club

[Gatecrasher]

St Mirren's statement:

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22582

Club Statement – League Reconstruction

April 16, 2013 By admin (http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?author=1)
http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/stadium_tour-300x140.jpgFurther to yesterday’s SPL Club meeting held at Hampden Park, St Mirren FC is extremely disappointed by the comments of certain clubs’ representatives and some journalists towards our club and seeks to clarify our position.
We made it perfectly clear in our statement issued last week that we were against the league structure proposed and also that of the proposed 11-1 voting system. It would appear that certain individuals have tried to move this round to being only an objection to the voting structure. Please read our statement of last Monday (see below*) for clarity of this. Both of these items were our primary issues with the proposals.
The following resolutions are described as Qualified Resolutions in the proposed rules and require an 11-1 vote to change:-
- Retaining home gate receipts
- League restructuring
- Distribution model of finance
- Squad size
- Under 21 rules
- Season start date
- Numbers of home live TV matches
- Salary capping
You will probably be aware that during the meeting a proposal to change one of these Resolutions, namely the League Restructuring section, was brought to the table by two clubs who suggested reducing this to a 75% majority ie 9-3.
As this was only part of the Qualified Resolutions this was not acceptable to St Mirren. The items in this section require to be changed completely to a 9-3 level of voting, excepting the retention of home gate receipts which would be totally unfair to the larger clubs. We are also happy to contract that no club shall have more live home TV matches than anyone else.
This democratic set up in the SPL is one that has been in place since its inception and has proved not to be fit for purpose, hence our objection to it. It is ironic that this is what has stopped the proposal going forward.
However, clubs have the right to vote as they see fit and directors have a legal responsibility to look after the interests of their club, a criticism that appears to be directed towards St Mirren. It should be highlighted that Aberdeen could have indeed changed this voting structure last year had they seen fit to vote with their fellow clubs. That is their decision and we respect that, however before being critical of others they should possibly take stock of their previous decision not to allow this change to go forward.
While on the subject of criticism, we find it hard to accept other Football Clubs telling us how to vote on football matters, or indeed questioning our motives. It is the right of all Clubs to make their own decisions and other Clubs should respect this.
We are being accused of self interest. Is that the self interest in consulting with our supporters and staff prior to the board making this decision? If so, we are guilty. We are very grateful for all the messages of support we have received not just from our own fans but also from supporters of many other clubs who did not wish this proposal to go ahead. We firmly believe in our heart and in our head that this is the correct decision for Scottish Football.
St Mirren Football Club are still intent on change in Scottish Football within a system for all 42 clubs. We wish to make it very clear that we have no SPL 2 agenda. We believe that that is not the way forward.
It should be noted that at the start of yesterday’s meeting we asked clubs to consider revisiting the proposal before the meeting. Our suggestion was that we looked at the following compromise;
- One League Body
- All Through Financial Distribution Model
- Introducing a Play Off Place
- A Voting Structure of 75% of the Top League Clubs having to agree.
(Subject to an agreement re home gates and the number of home live TV matches)
Some clubs were willing to discuss this and hopefully come to a compromise.
Regrettably this was rejected by a majority of clubs who wished to only stick to the all or nothing proposal.
There have been suggestions of influence on our Board by other clubs. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Board of St Mirren has only the interests of St Mirren and Scottish Football at the centre of their attention.
Finally, St Mirren FC hope that all 42 Clubs can get round the table in the very near future to progress the formation of one league body and the all through financial distribution model as the first steps to finding the best league format to encompass the views of Clubs, supporters, sponsors and all other people involved in Scottish Football.
On behalf of the Board of Directors of St Mirren Football Club
************************************************** ****************
League Restructure – Statement 8th April 2013*
After a very studied consideration of the Structure, Articles of Association, Rules and Shareholders Agreement, the Board of St Mirren Football Club have decided that they will be unable to support the motion at next Monday’s Meeting of SPL Clubs regarding this proposal for League Reconstruction.
This view has been taken after careful thought regarding this proposal including engagement with fans and the views of our coaching staff.
The principles of a new league structure, single league body and all through distribution model are part of many aspects of this we fully support, however the proposal as presented does not, in our view, move the game forward.
The concept of playing 22 games prior to breaking into three leagues of eight, including the middle eight losing their points gained in the first series of games, is not a system we see as taking the game forward in the long term. You will be aware that other countries have tried this system and have since rejected such a set up.
We also feel that this system is not fair to fans who buy into their club by way of a season ticket, who are then unsure of what they are purchasing. It is also against the basic wishes of the fans for larger leagues as highlighted in all recent fan surveys.
In the proposed rules the voting structure is remaining, in all items that are of importance, an 11-1 vote. In our opinion, this is fundamentally wrong in any structure and is the principle reason why Scottish League Football has not been able to restructure prior to this time, a view St Mirren have held for some time.
The restriction on any change for three years is also very much against our view. When engaging with any new rule book there will always be oversight and anomalies that need to be revised on an annual basis.
An area St Mirren are very uncomfortable with is the lock down on various financial rules. The credibility of Scottish Football has been tarnished badly in recent times by financial mismanagement and the time has come for strong financial rules to be in place.
Another concern to us is the hard line taken by some in certain areas, like season start date, home-grown talent, under-21 rules. This is not an exhaustive list, however we do think these items require negotiation for the betterment of Scottish Football in general.
We also do not accept that this is a take it or leave it situation. We do wish to keep working towards one organisation, an all through distribution model and getting closer to our supporters’ wishes of a larger league, while being fully aware of the commercial and financial pressures of operating a football club.
On behalf of the Board of Directors of St Mirren Football Club
Interesting reading. Again it appears the SPL say one thing and what actually happened is another. :rolleyes:

[Beefster]

The St Mirren statement comprehensively trashes the main arguments against them on Monday.

[J-C]

So SPL want 11-1 vote to stay, even with new leagues, then say ok we'll go with 9-3 vote but only if new leagues are voted in. SPL take no notice of fans opposition against new leagues, even when theses same leagues have failed dramatically in other countries, also SPL seem unwilling to negotiate over other league proposals, squads, home grown etc, looks very much like this is what we're offering, take it or leave it, St Mirren and Ross C decided to leave, well done.

[GreenCastle]

"This democratic set up in the SPL is one that has been in place since its inception and has proved not to be fit for purpose, hence our objection to it. It is ironic that this is what has stopped the proposal going forward."

I still back St Mirren and Ross County for what they have done. I think we will get a better compromise in the future and the game might finally going in the right direction,

I do think Hibs should come out and make a statement or fans should be allowed to ask Rod what is going on here - we have stayed very silent on the issue and I don't like that.

These proposals were rushed through even if they claim they were years of work - they haven't been thought through properly.

I would also expect more leadership from Regan / Doncaster and co - or them to move on as it seems they can't do their job properly.

[Part/Time Supporter]

If voting reform was a red line for St Mirren, then why didn't they say that at the previous meetings? They've ended up wasting months (years if you include the previous proposals that collapsed) of everyone's time and efforts. Their failure to make clear that the voting reform was essential is what makes people suspicious that there is some sort of alterior motive going on.

[CropleyWasGod]

If voting reform was a red line for St Mirren, then why didn't they say that at the previous meetings? They've ended up wasting months (years if you include the previous proposals that collapsed) of everyone's time and efforts. Their failure to make clear that the voting reform was essential is what makes people suspicious that there is some sort of alterior motive going on.

What would the ulterior motive be, though?

I could see the suspicions about that if they wanted to retain 11-1, but not if they want it done away with.

(Apologies if this has been discussed, I am new to this thread)

[Part/Time Supporter]

What would the ulterior motive be, though?

I could see the suspicions about that if they wanted to retain 11-1, but not if they want it done away with.

(Apologies if this has been discussed, I am new to this thread)

The suspicion is that collapsing this all encompassing proposal, which would have put Sevco in the bottom division of a 12-12-18 system, makes an invitational SPL2 (including Sevco) more likely. Charles Green attended St Mirren v Celtic recently. Gilmour has said that they were talking about other things and has threatened legal action against anyone who says they were conspiring to this effect.

[CropleyWasGod]

The suspicion is that collapsing this all encompassing proposal, which would have put Sevco in the bottom division of a 12-12-18 system, makes an invitational SPL2 (including Sevco) more likely. Charles Green attended St Mirren v Celtic recently. Gilmour has said that they were talking about other things and has threatened legal action against anyone who says they were conspiring to this effect.

That has been denied by them, though.

We wish to make it very clear that we have no SPL 2 agenda. We believe that that is not the way forward.
.
There have been suggestions of influence on our Board by other clubs. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Board of St Mirren has only the interests of St Mirren and Scottish Football at the centre of their attention.

[MB62]

League reconstruction is being put forward as the answer to a lot of the problems that currently exist, however, IMO, it is merely a case of 'shuffling the same pack of crooked cards'.
The biggest problem we have in Scottish football is the social/religious aspect where kids from all over Scotland are indoctrined by their donut parents to support one half of the O.F because of political and NOT for football reasons.

Scottish football is always going to struggle to survive because of this and there is no answer to it, well not one that will ever happen anyway.
When buses leave every part of the country every match day to watch the O.F, that is why there is a problem and all the reconstruction in the world is not going to solve the problem.
I don't have a problem with people 'supporting' a team from a different area as there could be several reasons for this. What I do have a problem with, and I've said it many times previously on here, is people attaching themselves to these clubs and NOT going to the games.
For example, I have different neighbours who support either side of the O.F. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have been to see their respective team for years, in fact one I believe has NEVER seen his so called team. However both their sons are now indoctrined in to that particular team but have absolutely no chance of attending any games. Point here is, these laddies could have been going to Easter Road or Tynecastle every week but for politically religious reasons, they are basically lost to the game.
All clubs outside the O.F. suffer this same fate, and will always struggle because of it.

There are of course other things that could help a bit, playing football at 3.00pm on a Saturday for instance is one, but all this league reconstruction is a smoke screen for the real problem.

There are also far too many clubs in Scotland, another problem that will only be sorted if some go to the wall, probably for financial reasons.

[Dan Sarf]

League reconstruction is being put forward as the answer to a lot of the problems that currently exist, however, IMO, it is merely a case of 'shuffling the same pack of crooked cards'.
The biggest problem we have in Scottish football is the social/religious aspect where kids from all over Scotland are indoctrined by their donut parents to support one half of the O.F because of political and NOT for football reasons.

Scottish football is always going to struggle to survive because of this and there is no answer to it, well not one that will ever happen anyway.
When buses leave every part of the country every match day to watch the O.F, that is why there is a problem and all the reconstruction in the world is not going to solve the problem.
I don't have a problem with people 'supporting' a team from a different area as there could be several reasons for this. What I do have a problem with, and I've said it many times previously on here, is people attaching themselves to these clubs and NOT going to the games.
For example, I have different neighbours who support either side of the O.F. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have been to see their respective team for years, in fact one I believe has NEVER seen his so called team. However both their sons are now indoctrined in to that particular team but have absolutely no chance of attending any games. Point here is, these laddies could have been going to Easter Road or Tynecastle every week but for politically religious reasons, they are basically lost to the game.
All clubs outside the O.F. suffer this same fate, and will always struggle because of it.

There are of course other things that could help a bit, playing football at 3.00pm on a Saturday for instance is one, but all this league reconstruction is a smoke screen for the real problem.

There are also far too many clubs in Scotland, another problem that will only be sorted if some go to the wall, probably for financial reasons.

Great post.

Forward it to the half wits at the SFA etc.

[lord bunberry]

There's far to many clubs keeping quiet about the issue that most fans want an answer to, why does anyone other than celtic want to keep the 11-1 voting system. All these clubs including our own are quick to issue statements when they want our money but when the fans want a simple question answered the silence is deafening

[chippy]

League reconstruction is being put forward as the answer to a lot of the problems that currently exist, however, IMO, it is merely a case of 'shuffling the same pack of crooked cards'.
The biggest problem we have in Scottish football is the social/religious aspect where kids from all over Scotland are indoctrined by their donut parents to support one half of the O.F because of political and NOT for

Scottish football is always going to struggle to survive because of this and there is no answer to it, well not one that will ever happen anyway.
When buses leave every part of the country every match day to watch the O.F, that is why there is a problem and all the reconstruction in the world is not going to solve the problem.
I don't have a problem with people 'supporting' a team from a different area as there could be several reasons for this. What I do have a problem with, and I've said it many times previously on here, is people attaching themselves to these clubs and NOT going to the games.
For example, I have different neighbours who support either side of the O.F. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have been to see their respective team for years, in fact one I believe has NEVER seen his so called team. However both their sons are now indoctrined in to that particular team but have absolutely no chance of attending any games. Point here is, these laddies could have been going to Easter Road or Tynecastle every week but for politically religious reasons, they are basically lost to the game.
All clubs outside the O.F. suffer this same fate, and will always struggle because of it.

There are of course other things that could help a bit, playing football at 3.00pm on a Saturday for instance is one, but all this league reconstruction is a smoke screen for the real problem.

There are also far too many clubs in Scotland, another problem that will only be sorted if some go to the wall, probably for financial reasons.

Interesting points. My view is that it is not religion per se that divides but people's cultural/ historical connections to a religion that influences which club they will support. It could be argued that the religion has been replaced by worship of rangers or Celtic- they have become the religion and the temple or church is the stadium.

A bit tangential but been meaning to post for ages that the bulk of fans who want a larger league of say 16 should not buy the argument that this means a reduction in games and revenue or will lead to meaningless games. A 16 team league can at the end of the main seasons 30 game run be supplemented by a series of splits to add a really exciting end to the season. A top 6 could play another home and away series and the final positions could be used to determine the champs and/or euro places. The following 8 clubs could go into 2 sections of 4 home and away games with the 2 winners playing off to with the winner playing off with the 5th or 6th club from the top 6 for the final Europa league place. The bottom 2 could simply be relegated or go into play offs with top 2 from lower division. I know this is a bit complicated but it is the basic model of the Belgian pro league. In this way I think you will have your 4 sevco celts feats for telly and lots of local derbies to sell as well to telly. The Belgians carry fwd a proportion of points won after the main 30 game season so this reduces a little any runaway leaders. The middle 8 twin sectors start afresh. Of course the top 6 could just be from scratch as well but guess that would be resisted by you know who. A guy posted earlier another way to increase games and excitement in a 16 team league is the polish model of splitting into 2 leagues of 8 and playing each other 1 more time resulting in 37 games although some may complain about unfairness and loss of Glasgow derby for tv

[CelticEnd]

League reconstruction is being put forward as the answer to a lot of the problems that currently exist, however, IMO, it is merely a case of 'shuffling the same pack of crooked cards'.
The biggest problem we have in Scottish football is the social/religious aspect where kids from all over Scotland are indoctrined by their donut parents to support one half of the O.F because of political and NOT for football reasons.

Scottish football is always going to struggle to survive because of this and there is no answer to it, well not one that will ever happen anyway.
When buses leave every part of the country every match day to watch the O.F, that is why there is a problem and all the reconstruction in the world is not going to solve the problem.
I don't have a problem with people 'supporting' a team from a different area as there could be several reasons for this. What I do have a problem with, and I've said it many times previously on here, is people attaching themselves to these clubs and NOT going to the games.
For example, I have different neighbours who support either side of the O.F. Neither of them, to my knowledge, have been to see their respective team for years, in fact one I believe has NEVER seen his so called team. However both their sons are now indoctrined in to that particular team but have absolutely no chance of attending any games. Point here is, these laddies could have been going to Easter Road or Tynecastle every week but for politically religious reasons, they are basically lost to the game.
All clubs outside the O.F. suffer this same fate, and will always struggle because of it.

There are of course other things that could help a bit, playing football at 3.00pm on a Saturday for instance is one, but all this league reconstruction is a smoke screen for the real problem.

There are also far too many clubs in Scotland, another problem that will only be sorted if some go to the wall, probably for financial reasons.

No offense but this post is utter nonsense.

Why do Juventus have a huge support through all of Italy?
Why do Real Madrid have a huge support through all of Spain?
Why do Benfica have a huge support through all of Portugal?
Why do Spartak Moscow have a huge support through all of Russia?
Why do Man Utd have a huge support through all of England?

Is this all due to bigotry?

Kids will support the most famous and most successful clubs.

Lots of kids in Glasgow nowadays have Barcelona as their first club for example because they can watch them on TV and they win more than anyone else.

Hibernian could easily compete with Celtic if the Hibs support came out and filled their stadium every week instead of only appearing at cup finals.

[JeMeSouviens]

No offense but this post is utter nonsense.

Why do Juventus have a huge support through all of Italy?
Why do Real Madrid have a huge support through all of Spain?
Why do Benfica have a huge support through all of Portugal?
Why do Spartak Moscow have a huge support through all of Russia?
Why do Man Utd have a huge support through all of England?

Is this all due to bigotry?

Kids will support the most famous and most successful clubs.

Lots of kids in Glasgow nowadays have Barcelona as their first club for example because they can watch them on TV and they win more than anyone else.

Hibernian could easily compete with Celtic if the Hibs support came out and filled their stadium every week instead of only appearing at cup finals.


Utter nonsense is a bit strong, you can't possibly claim tribal identity doesn't come into team choice for large parts of West Central Scotland (and possibly even more so in Northern Ireland)? However, I agree with your general point that it is mostly success rather than religious/political affiliation that attracts Celtic fans from areas outside the Greater Weegie hinterland. You only need to cast your mind back to the 80s and the number of Aberdeen fans that suddenly popped up in decidedly unsheepish areas.

As for Hibs easily competing, that might've been true in the past, not so sure now. A chock full Easter Road would probably put £2-3 million on Hibs' wage budget. It might make us best of the rest but we'd still be on about 30% of Celtic wages. Hearts have spent the last few years squandering what we thought was Vlad's but actually turns out to be millions of robbed Lithuanians' money. Arguably if they'd spent it in a less shambolic way they could've made a serious push, they actually briefly made Tiny look too small before they sacked Burley.

There is not even the remotest prospect of anyone arriving to put that sort of initial splurge into any of the other SPL clubs and without it, the punters just will not make the required leap. What sort of gates would Celtic get if they hadn't won the league in 60 years or the cup in over 110?

Even worse, the SFA's pursual of the Hun-at-all-costs policy means that even nature abhorring a vacuum won't get a chance to throw up another challenger to Celtic. A gradual momentum building behind someone emerging with a challenge might've done something but I think it would take more like 5-10 years and everyone knows the franchise will be back long before then.

****, we're aw doomed.

[MB62]

No offense but this post is utter nonsense.

Why do Juventus have a huge support through all of Italy?
Why do Real Madrid have a huge support through all of Spain?
Why do Benfica have a huge support through all of Portugal?
Why do Spartak Moscow have a huge support through all of Russia?
Why do Man Utd have a huge support through all of England?

Is this all due to bigotry?

Kids will support the most famous and most successful clubs.

Lots of kids in Glasgow nowadays have Barcelona as their first club for example because they can watch them on TV and they win more than anyone else.

Hibernian could easily compete with Celtic if the Hibs support came out and filled their stadium every week instead of only appearing at cup finals.

No offense taken, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

I accept that success attracts bigger crowds, however, you just have to listen to the songs coming from the stands at Parkhead and Ibrox, and the flags and banners around the grounds, to be able to acknowledge that there is a big problem founded on a religious basis.
I am not saying that individuals are personally bigoted against an individual human being, but as the tribal aspect of attaching themselves to one religious divide or another certainly is a problem.

[CelticEnd]

No offense taken, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

I accept that success attracts bigger crowds, however, you just have to listen to the songs coming from the stands at Parkhead and Ibrox, and the flags and banners around the grounds, to be able to acknowledge that there is a big problem founded on a religious basis.
I am not saying that individuals are personally bigoted against an individual human being, but as the tribal aspect of attaching themselves to one religious divide or another certainly is a problem.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not interested in discussing the merits of Rangers/Sevco so will keep it to Celtic.

There is a tribal element to the Celtic support but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

I also accept there is a proportion of Celtic fans who think that because they support Celtic it makes them an uber Catholic and Irish Republican even though they've probably never stepped foot in Ireland or went to chapel since they were last dragged along for a wedding or funeral.

The old adage applies though - show me a crowd and I'll show you a dickhead.

No matter what country you want to talk about the most successful club has the most fans... It's the nature of human beings unfortunately.

I've actually discussed this with friends in the last few months...

I'll use an example of Dundee. Maybe 40 years ago you had 40% of the city supporting Dundee, 20% supporting Dundee Utd, 20% supporting Celtic and 20% supporting Rangers.

In the 40 years we've had more TV coverage which means "fans" now don't support their club by going to stadiums which means you can follow your club even from afar. Due to this and success of clubs in that period you'd now find the split is something like 33% Celtic, 33% Sevco and the rest divided between the two home town teams. I think that's a shame.

Same thing though is now happening in Glasgow.

When I was at school (Catholic school :) ) it was almost exclusively Celtic fans with one or two per class having random teams like Aberdeen/Hibs due to that being the club their family follows.

My seven year old niece class is now about 60% Celtic, 20% Barcelona and 20% Man Utd...

I don't think it has anything to do with religion. I think the biggest cause of this is access to TV coverage and people being put off from going to games to support teams due to a number of factors (pricing, quality on show, match day experience).

[MB62]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not interested in discussing the merits of Rangers/Sevco so will keep it to Celtic.

There is a tribal element to the Celtic support but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

I also accept there is a proportion of Celtic fans who think that because they support Celtic it makes them an uber Catholic and Irish Republican even though they've probably never stepped foot in Ireland or went to chapel since they were last dragged along for a wedding or funeral.

The old adage applies though - show me a crowd and I'll show you a dickhead.

No matter what country you want to talk about the most successful club has the most fans... It's the nature of human beings unfortunately.

I've actually discussed this with friends in the last few months...

I'll use an example of Dundee. Maybe 40 years ago you had 40% of the city supporting Dundee, 20% supporting Dundee Utd, 20% supporting Celtic and 20% supporting Rangers.

In the 40 years we've had more TV coverage which means "fans" now don't support their club by going to stadiums which means you can follow your club even from afar. Due to this and success of clubs in that period you'd now find the split is something like 33% Celtic, 33% Sevco and the rest divided between the two home town teams. I think that's a shame.

Same thing though is now happening in Glasgow.

When I was at school (Catholic school :) ) it was almost exclusively Celtic fans with one or two per class having random teams like Aberdeen/Hibs due to that being the club their family follows.

My seven year old niece class is now about 60% Celtic, 20% Barcelona and 20% Man Utd...

I don't think it has anything to do with religion. I think the biggest cause of this is access to TV coverage and people being put off from going to games to support teams due to a number of factors (pricing, quality on show, match day experience).

You make good points CE, in particular your point of T.V. coverage. This is also one of THE big things that is killing football in Scotland as far people going to games is concerned, it affects even myself. However, clubs would rather take the certain T.V. money than the possible gate receipts.
Your last point re school % of supporters kind of shoots your arguement in the foot. Your niece goes to a Catholic school where 60% is Celtic, not even 1% newco? I wonder why?

You can talk all the permutations you like with league reconstruction, nothing will be the solution as long as the O.F. exist.

[CelticEnd]

You make good points CE, in particular your point of T.V. coverage. This is also one of THE big things that is killing football in Scotland as far people going to games is concerned, it affects even myself. However, clubs would rather take the certain T.V. money than the possible gate receipts.
Your last point re school % of supporters kind of shoots your arguement in the foot. Your niece goes to a Catholic school where 60% is Celtic, not even 1% newco? I wonder why?

You can talk all the permutations you like with league reconstruction, nothing will be the solution as long as the O.F. exist.

I think TV has a lot more to do with the fact that people from Dundee/Edinburgh/Dunfermline/Kilmarnock etc support Celtic rather than their local team.

Bigotry etc was around years ago and probably worse when teams like Dundee and Dunfermline prospered with large supports so I see it as a red herring... Yes it contributes but not as much as you'd probably think.

Teams have to get into schools and get the local youngsters interested in their local team. They then need to follow this up by either providing schools free tickets to take kids to games and reducing the price for families to attend matches.

It's not an easy fix and will take a generation to see results but this simply must be done. Clubs have to grow their base support and have them wanting to come to matches.

If Celtic went to England tomorrow I fear it would be the death of the Scottish game. Rightly or wrongly the media would cover English football more than Scottish football, money in the game up here would run dry and the quality would suffer. Sure it would be competitive and crowds may rise in the short term but in the long term I'd see even more kids growing up and choosing Celtic over Hearts/Hibs/Motherwell purely cause they play in England and would have some real star players.

What's for certain is that Scottish football has to work together to try and make the best of what we have.

Split gates can't work as Celtic want to play with Europe's elite and they can only do that by maximising their gate receipts. Other things however can work...

IMO Celtic should allow away teams to keep money from the tickets they sell for Celtic Park. Imagine Hibs bringing 7,500 to Celtic Park generating about £175k for Hibs and making for a cracking atmosphere.

Celtic should also spread the wealth of European success with SPL clubs. In a year like this year where Celtic have done well in the Champions League and made a profit I believe they should be handing back their SPL prize money and TV money to be spread among other clubs to be ring fenced for things like youth education to go into schools and try and get new fans or for youth development.

[StevieC]

If Celtc went to England tomorrow I fear it would be the death of the Scottish game.

Based on what?

What would Scottish teams miss out on that Celtc leaving would suddenly remove from the Scottish game?


Rightly or wrongly the media would cover English football more than Scottish football

The media already covers English football more than Scottish, do you not get MOTD, MOTD2 and The Football League Show in your neck of the woods?


Sure it would be competitive and crowds may rise

So the downside would be .. ???


but in the long term I'd see even more kids growing up and choosing Celtc over Hearts/Hibs/Motherwell purely cause they play in England and would have some real star players.

You would have the same as you have now .. kids supporting a Scottish team and having an "English" team they follow on MOTD.


What's for certain is that Scottish football has to work together to try and make the best of what we have.

It's a shame that it took one of the OF to go t!ts up, and the other to struggle without them, before they actually realised this.


Split gates can't work as Celtic want to play with Europe's elite and they can only do that by maximising their gate receipts.

Ah, so you haven't realised yet, my mistake. I thought it was about the greater good for Scottish football, but it's actually about you maximising your income for European jaunts and leaving the rest behind.


Celtc should also spread the wealth of European success with SPL clubs.

You've got me confused now .. you increase your income, to the detriment of Scottish football, so you can do well in Europe and give some money back???

Wouldn't it be easier to share the money in the first instance, just incase you get papped out of Europe likes?


In a year like this year where Celtc have done well in the Champions League and made a profit I believe they should be handing back their SPL prize money and TV money to be spread among other clubs to be ring fenced for things like youth education to go into schools and try and get new fans or for youth development.

Or alternatively, just spread the money fairly in the first place so that clubs can budget properly instead of hanging on desperately on the off chance that Celtc might do well in Europe?

[stokesmessiah]

Based on what?

What would Scottish teams miss out on that Celtc leaving would suddenly remove from the Scottish game?



The media already covers English football more than Scottish, do you not get MOTD, MOTD2 and The Football League Show in your neck of the woods?



So the downside would be .. ???



You would have the same as you have now .. kids supporting a Scottish team and having an "English" team they follow on MOTD.



It's a shame that it took one of the OF to go t!ts up, and the other to struggle without them, before they actually realised this.



Ah, so you haven't realised yet, my mistake. I thought it was about the greater good for Scottish football, but it's actually about you maximising your income for European jaunts and leaving the rest behind.



You've got me confused now .. you increase your income, to the detriment of Scottish football, so you can do well in Europe and give some money back???

Wouldn't it be easier to share the money in the first instance, just incase you get papped out of Europe likes?



Or alternatively, just spread the money fairly in the first place so that clubs can budget properly instead of hanging on desperately on the off chance that Celtc might do well in Europe?

Cracking post.

[Saorsa]

Based on what?

What would Scottish teams miss out on that Celtc leaving would suddenly remove from the Scottish game?



The media already covers English football more than Scottish, do you not get MOTD, MOTD2 and The Football League Show in your neck of the woods?



So the downside would be .. ???



You would have the same as you have now .. kids supporting a Scottish team and having an "English" team they follow on MOTD.



It's a shame that it took one of the OF to go t!ts up, and the other to struggle without them, before they actually realised this.



Ah, so you haven't realised yet, my mistake. I thought it was about the greater good for Scottish football, but it's actually about you maximising your income for European jaunts and leaving the rest behind.



You've got me confused now .. you increase your income, to the detriment of Scottish football, so you can do well in Europe and give some money back???

Wouldn't it be easier to share the money in the first instance, just incase you get papped out of Europe likes?



Or alternatively, just spread the money fairly in the first place so that clubs can budget properly instead of hanging on desperately on the off chance that Celtc might do well in Europe?:top marks

[CelticEnd]

Based on what?

What would Scottish teams miss out on that Celtc leaving would suddenly remove from the Scottish game?


A whole load of income for starters. Clubs would have a lot less to spend on players/wages and as such would lose more players, more quickly to lower league English clubs.



The media already covers English football more than Scottish, do you not get MOTD, MOTD2 and The Football League Show in your neck of the woods?

This is just wrong. You've picked one area of media (television) and ignored every other media outlet that has far more coverage of Scottish football than English football... Radio, newspapers etc.


So the downside would be .. ???

You would have the same as you have now .. kids supporting a Scottish team and having an "English" team they follow on MOTD.

No you wouldn't... You'd have a Scottish team playing in England which puts a total new slant on it. I don't see many Cardiff/Swansea fans that also actively support a team in the Welsh league...



It's a shame that it took one of the OF to go t!ts up, and the other to struggle without them, before they actually realised this.


I've actually realised this for a while... PS. Celtic have not struggled without Rangers. Our turnover is the highest it's ever been for the first 6 months of the year and we are guaranteed a shot at CL football every season.




Ah, so you haven't realised yet, my mistake. I thought it was about the greater good for Scottish football, but it's actually about you maximising your income for European jaunts and leaving the rest behind.

Greater good of Scottish football yes but of course you have to look after your own club as well. As a Celtic fan I think we are big enough to play at the top level of European football.



You've got me confused now .. you increase your income, to the detriment of Scottish football, so you can do well in Europe and give some money back???

Wouldn't it be easier to share the money in the first instance, just incase you get papped out of Europe likes?

Celtic budget based on reaching the Europa League Group Stage... If we have a bad year in Europe we can't afford to give up our prize money etc from the SPL.



Or alternatively, just spread the money fairly in the first place so that clubs can budget properly instead of hanging on desperately on the off chance that Celtc might do well in Europe?

What is your interpretation of "fairly"? It's Celtic fans that are putting most money into Scottish football so I'd assume in a free and open market it's Celtic that gets most of that money? What I'm proposing is some ways of trying to filter this money through to other clubs to narrow the financial and sporting gap between Celtic and the rest with things like bonuses for other clubs when Celtic do well in Europe and other clubs getting to keep the away gate receipts when they come to Celtic Park.

You have to realise that Hibs are part of the SPL so they don't have to share money with smaller clubs like East Fife and Forfar so to take the moral high ground is just wrong.

Celtic, as the biggest club in the country, should be making more of an effort than they do to improve the standard of the game in Scotland but expecting them to do this by sacrificing any chance they have of playing at the highest level they can is just wrong.

Would you be happy if Hibs slashed their playing budget in order that every club in SFL1 could be full time?

[StevieC]

A whole load of income for starters. Clubs would have a lot less to spend on players/wages and as such would lose more players, more quickly to lower league English clubs.

That's the line that was trotted out when Rangers were emptied out the SPL. Basically it's nonesense.

Petrie has already stated that the TV deal does not benefit Hibs and voted against it when it was last renewed.

The chances of a mass exodus of Scottish talent to the lower echolons of the English league is pure speculation at best. Players will obviously look for the best deals but not every player, especially younger ones, is willing to up sticks and move hundreds of miles away.


This is just wrong. You've picked one area of media (television) and ignored every other media outlet that has far more coverage of Scottish football than English football... Radio, newspapers etc.?

Are you having a laugh? Radio? Newspapers? These "media" outlets (and I use the term loosely) cover OF football. The fact that the OF play in Scotland is of no consequence, and I doubt anyone would even notice a difference if the OF were playing down south.


Celtc have not struggled without Rangers. Our turnover is the highest it's ever been for the first 6 months

Teams flourish without Old Firm shocker!


As a Celtc fan I think we are big enough to play at the top level of European football.

:faf:


If we have a bad year in Europe we can't afford to give up our prize money etc from the SPL.

So the other teams have to depend on you being a bit flush for a hand-out .. how charitable of you.


It's Celtc fans that are putting most money into Scottish football so I'd assume in a free and open market it's Celtc that gets most of that money?

You'll not enjoy it down south then, because down there they actually spread the money out pretty evenly regardless of a teams turnover or average crowds. Apparently something to do with trying to create a more level playing field. Strange concept, but there you have it.


Celtic, as the biggest club in the country, should be making more of an effort than they do to improve the standard of the game in Scotland but expecting them to do this by sacrificing any chance they have of playing at the highest level they can is just wrong.

In that case .... **** off.

You'll not be missed.

[Saorsa]

That's the line that was trotted out when Rangers were emptied out the SPL. Basically it's nonesense.

Petrie has already stated that the TV deal does not benefit Hibs and voted against it when it was last renewed.

The chances of a mass exodus of Scottish talent to the lower echolons of the English league is pure speculation at best. Players will obviously look for the best deals but not every player, especially younger ones, is willing to up sticks and move hundreds of miles away.



Are you having a laugh? Radio? Newspapers? These "media" outlets (and I use the term loosely) cover OF football. The fact that the OF play in Scotland is of no consequence, and I doubt anyone would even notice a difference if the OF were playing down south.



Teams flourish without Old Firm shocker!



:faf:



So the other teams have to depend on you being a bit flush for a hand-out .. how charitable of you.



You'll not enjoy it down south then, because down there they actually spread the money out pretty evenly regardless of a teams turnover or average crowds. Apparently something to do with trying to create a more level playing field. Strange concept, but there you have it.



In that case .... **** off.

You'll not be missed. This:top marksagain

and the bit in bold gets http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/smilies%202/topmarks15.gif (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/jamie1971/media/smilies%202/topmarks15.gif.html)too bad naebody else wants them

[BroxburnHibee]

SFA no happy by the looks of it.................

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=11722&newsCategoryID=1

[Saorsa]

SFA no happy by the looks of it.................

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=11722&newsCategoryID=1


The views of supporters and the general public must also be taken into account.:hilarious


Lest it be forgotten, with the honourable exceptions of Celtic and Rangers in recent years, Scottish clubs now routinely exit European football in the qualifying rounds.And that of course has nothing tae dae with the fact that for decades the game has been run for the benefit of these two blood suckers and **** everybody else.

[CelticEnd]

That is just a rabble rouser style post with no substance but I'll reply anyway...


That's the line that was trotted out when Rangers were emptied out the SPL. Basically it's nonesense.

Petrie has already stated that the TV deal does not benefit Hibs and voted against it when it was last renewed.

Are you saying Sky/ESPN would pay as much for the SPL without Celtic involved? Not a chance... There would be a TV deal but it wouldnt generate anywhere near the income the current one does.


The chances of a mass exodus of Scottish talent to the lower echolons of the English league is pure speculation at best. Players will obviously look for the best deals but not every player, especially younger ones, is willing to up sticks and move hundreds of miles away.

True it's speculative but it's fact that if there's less money in the game quality players will leave sooner.


Are you having a laugh? Radio? Newspapers? These "media" outlets (and I use the term loosely) cover OF football. The fact that the OF play in Scotland is of no consequence, and I doubt anyone would even notice a difference if the OF were playing down south.

Sponsors etc would obviously notice a difference hence less money fro those left behind...



:faf:

You don't think Celtic should have aspirations of competing with Europes elite? In fact you seem to find the suggesting funny? Playing in a league that generates little income we managed to make the last 16 of the Champions League three times in the last 10 years as well as appearing in a UEFA Cup final... I therefore fail to see your point at all?


So the other teams have to depend on you being a bit flush for a hand-out .. how charitable of you.

It was a suggestion... If you have any then you may as well post them?


You'll not enjoy it down south then, because down there they actually spread the money out pretty evenly regardless of a teams turnover or average crowds. Apparently something to do with trying to create a more level playing field. Strange concept, but there you have it.

I don't want Celtic to play down south as I've said before.

In the SPL Celtic as Champions would get less than £1m more than the team who finish in third position...

I've came up with ideas to get other clubs more money such as keeping away gate receipts from Celtic Park but rather than come up with ideas you seem to just want to run with a Celtic destroyed Scottish football agenda without backing it up with any detailed argument or facts?


In that case .... **** off.

You'll not be missed.

Nice way to finish a post that is severely lacking in any substance.

[Phil MaGlass]

its the beginning of the end, "THE GAMES´S A BOGEY"certainly in Scotland, the fat lady has sung,the death knell for Scottish fitba, take ma words for it, it´s all over, The newhuns will be back before you can say ------ b-------. Go find another sport, another hobby, travel the world, do something with yir life but FFS stop wasting your time,effort, blood, sweat, tears and hard earned money on an out of date, broken,wounded dying animal that is Scottish fitba, its just not worth it.

[J-C]

So how did this thread suddenly get taken over by the Green half talking about whether we'd be better off with or without them, if league construction means both sides of the OF sod off, then all good as far as I'm concerned.

[CelticEnd]

So how did this thread suddenly get taken over by the Green half talking about whether we'd be better off with or without them, if league construction means both sides of the OF sod off, then all good as far as I'm concerned.

It never...

I was trying to throw some ideas in that might benefit everyone in Scottish football but then others turned it into what you've said above.

[J-C]

It never...

I was trying to throw some ideas in that might benefit everyone in Scottish football but then others turned it into what you've said above.

Decided to look at league winners, runners up and 3rd spot prior to SPL set up, more diversity, yes Celtic and Rangers won the majority but so many more teams taking the 2nd and 3rd place.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_football_champions

[Baldy Foghorn]

It never...

I was trying to throw some ideas in that might benefit everyone in Scottish football but then others turned it into what you've said above.

The old firm have benifitted every single year through revenues, decisions, the SFA bending over backwards for them etc etc.....Both sides of that nasty coin, have banged their respective drum about competing either down South or elsewhere.... Citing lack of competition has been used numerous times, which is ironic, that the old firm have continually weakened the rest of the competition in Scotland since day 1.......

I would love both of the old firm to leave, we can do without the sectarian baggage they both bring with them.....I also think it would make the league much more competitive, and we all don't need to put up with the bile......

The old firm continually tell us they are unhappy, and want to move on, unfortunately that won't happen in the forseeable future.....

Your chat about being in Europe's elite, is just misty eyed rubbish.....You have been beaten several times in the SPL, hardly inspiring form, that suggets that you should dine at the top table......

And never forget your "history", you are in existence due to us.....You robbed us blindly when you were created, and have been doing so ever since.....

[CelticEnd]

Decided to look at league winners, runners up and 3rd spot prior to SPL set up, more diversity, yes Celtic and Rangers won the majority but so many more teams taking the 2nd and 3rd place.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_football_champions

So what's the answer?

I'd love to see Hibs offer a challenge but as things stand you guys are finishing well adrift of the likes of Ross County who are on a fraction of your budget?

[CelticEnd]

The old firm have benifitted every single year through revenues, decisions, the SFA bending over backwards for them etc etc.....Both sides of that nasty coin, have banged their respective drum about competing either down South or elsewhere.... Citing lack of competition has been used numerous times, which is ironic, that the old firm have continually weakened the rest of the competition in Scotland since day 1.......

Can you please provide me with one quote - just one - from anyone at Celtic who says they've failed in Europe due to a lack of competition in Scotland?


I would love both of the old firm to leave, we can do without the sectarian baggage they both bring with them.....I also think it would make the league much more competitive, and we all don't need to put up with the bile......

You go on like Celtic fans are sectarian **** who are sullying the reputation of the game? Last I checked Celtic fans are continuously praised in Europe for their behaviour? Every set of fans has things that occasionally let them down. Lets not forget it's not very long ago that Hibs fans en masse were singing racist songs about Rudi Skacel and Hearts fans regularly sing homophobic chants.


Your chat about being in Europe's elite, is just misty eyed rubbish.....You have been beaten several times in the SPL, hardly inspiring form, that suggets that you should dine at the top table......

Celtic dined there this season.... Hardly "misty eyed rubbish"....


And never forget your "history", you are in existence due to us.....You robbed us blindly when you were created, and have been doing so ever since.....

Come on... Lets not go back 125 years... Move on.

[J-C]

So what's the answer?

I'd love to see Hibs offer a challenge but as things stand you guys are finishing well adrift of the likes of Ross County who are on a fraction of your budget?



I think the answer is there for all to see, prior to the SPL set up with it's immoral 11-1 voting, there was a regular challenge from many other teams, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U etc all regularly taking 2nd or 3rd places. The split in moneys which was all geared towards the ugly sisters in the west, aided their push for domination, which is there for all to see since the SPL's conception. A vote which never allows change to take place for the betterment of Scottish football and a split in monies which benefit the top 2 on a yearly basis. hence the OF grow stronger and the rest struggle along in their wake.

We need a change at the top of the tree, fair shares of monies and a proper voting system in place, not rocket science..oh and while we're at it a 14 or 16 team top league, this one is boring the hell out of us.

[StevieC]

Are you saying Sky/ESPN would pay as much for the SPL without Celtic involved?

No, I'm saying that by the time the OF have taken a third of the TV/Sponsorship money that the 5% that the rest of the clubs get does not make that much of a difference to their turnover.
Rod Petrie was on record saying that the Sky/ESPN deal is actually detrimental to the clubs finances.
You come across as expecting us to be grateful for the TV money, despite the fact that you take that much of it there is nothing but scraps for the rest of us.
No OF might well mean a reduced money pot, but it would be outweighed by an increased percentage of the pot.


True it's speculative but it's fact that if there's less money in the game quality players will leave sooner.

Would they leave any sooner to head down south than they currently do to head to the OF?

The overall quality level might well reduce, but I doubt it would be hugely noticeable .. and it wouldn't be to competitors.


Sponsors etc would obviously notice a difference hence less money fro those left behind...

See above .. a bigger share of a smaller pot.


You don't think Celtic should have aspirations of competing with Europes elite? In fact you seem to find the suggesting funny? Playing in a league that generates little income we managed to make the last 16 of the Champions League three times in the last 10 years as well as appearing in a UEFA Cup final... I therefore fail to see your point at all?

And how did you achieve this?

By taking the lion's share of TV/Sponsorship money and cherry-picking the best talent from the league (to the detriment of the opposition and the league).

Given the resources to hand, and the average crowds, I would say that over the last 10 years you have probably under-achieved.

The bottom line though, you distribute the wealth fairly (and for the avoidance of doubt, a third between two teams is NOT fair) .. and if that dents your European aspirations then that's just tough.


In the SPL Celtic as Champions would get less than £1m more than the team who finish in third position...

In the SPL Celtic gets over 300% more than the team that finishes bottom. In the Premiership the champions barely get 50% more than the team that finishes bottom.

You might well be able to turn your nose up at £1m (which says it all about the selfishness of the OF) but every other team in the league would kill for that sort of cash.


I've came up with ideas to get other clubs more money such as keeping away gate receipts from Celtic Park but rather than come up with ideas you seem to just want to run with a Celtic destroyed Scottish football agenda without backing it up with any detailed argument or facts?

This post is full of facts and figures. I'm pretty sure you will choose to ignore them though, and continue with the "you hate Celtc and you've got an agenda" line.


Nice way to finish a post that is severely lacking in any substance.

Plenty of substance there, the trouble is that it involves your club putting back into the Scottish game a little of what it has pillaged over the years .. and that's not really what you want to hear is it?

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Trying to rapidly scan through some of the posts above. One point I'd like to make strongly - there is no Old Firm. Rangers died. There is currently a zombie, tribute act Bootleg Rangers playing in the lowest tier of the Scottish professional game. they should not have been allowed in as they could not meet the requirement of EUFA and the SFA ie. 3 years of audited accounts. Spartans had a better case and should have been accepted in their stead.

Celtic have appeared 3 times in the last 16of the Champions League in the last 6/7 years - not bad considering we are not drowning in debt and have not cheated HMRC, the British taxpayer or our fellow clubs.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

There are huge problems for the game in Scotland to overcome if it is to survive in any form that will be attractive to the fans. Radical change is required if the game is to be saved.

Scottish football does not get its fair share of TV money from SKY when you consider the huge number of football daft Scots who pay for SKY and ESPN packages. Clubs in AUstria, a similar size of population, get far more money than Scottish clubs do. I've been attending games for more than 50 years. The game was at its strongest in the 50s and 60s with a fair number of different teams winning the League and making an impact in European competitions Hibs, Dundee, Rangers reaching semis of EC. Rangers reaching ECWC final twice, Dunfermline and Killie also reaching semis. Celtic also played in two EC finals and one ECWC semi final.

There were very strong teams in Scotland with great players who were sought after down south. Clubs shared gates equally and there was very little live football on the telly. On Saturdays if you listened to BBC radio you heard the last half hour of commentary from David Francie from 4:10 a 4:40pm. In other words if you wanted to know how your team was doing or you wanted to see a game you had to get out and pay to see the game and support your team. The FA Cup Final wasn't shown live in Scotland. We had to wait till Sunday when the whole game was shown. The famous Scotland defeat of world champions England at Wembley wasn't shown live on telly.We got a highlights package at night.

The leagues were reconstructed to 4Leagues of 10 (I think) and clubs were to keep their own gate money because the top clubs were losing players to England and it was thought that this change would help them compete better and retain their best players.

We are now awash with live football on the telly from all over the UK and Europe and clubs still keep their own gates. Attendances have plummeted, we are still losing our top players to England but our teams are not competing in Europe the way they once did. It needs to be addressed.

I would also say that social factors have to be taken into account. The demise of kids playing football in the street. Why? Better TV programmes, computers, social networking, parents scared stiff of letting their kids out of their sight I case they are abducted (the Robert Black factor) and so fewer kids go to parks to play with their mates.

Only my thoughts. Feel free to shoot me down.

[Bill Milne]

Trying to rapidly scan through some of the posts above. One point I'd like to make strongly - there is no Old Firm. Rangers died. There is currently a zombie, tribute act Bootleg Rangers playing in the lowest tier of the Scottish professional game. they should not have been allowed in as they could not meet the requirement of EUFA and the SFA ie. 3 years of audited accounts. Spartans had a better case and should have been accepted in their stead.

Celtic have appeared 3 times in the last 16of the Champions League in the last 6/7 years - not bad considering we are not drowning in debt and have not cheated HMRC, the British taxpayer or our fellow clubs.

You are right about the abscence of an "Old Firm" but why does anyone connected with Celtic, in an official capacity, have a whine about missing Sevco when they talk about the state of scottish football? The serious Tim supporters might not like it but your club are desparate for the dosh which is generated by their prescence at the top table.

[alexedwards]

What would the ulterior motive be, though?

I could see the suspicions about that if they wanted to retain 11-1, but not if they want it done away with.

(Apologies if this has been discussed, I am new to this thread)


Stewart Gilmour indicated on Sportsound last night there were 2 main issues - League Structure / Voting Structure and was about to explain why but Richard Gordon and other journos kept prompting "what else? what else?, it can't just be about that?" - how incompetent are these journos? - if they had just let Stewart answer they would have found the key to the whole issue - the big deal; the main factor. If St Mirren claim that league/vote structure are the 2 main issues and they WOULD have conceded league structure in return for vote structure - the sticking point is the 11-1 voting structure - Tom English quoted himself - "only in North Korea would such a structure exist".
Nothing more, nothing less - power and control mad clubs stop growth of Scottish football shocker!!
A 42-club structure effectively run by one or two greedy clubs - no thanks; not in any event; not in any business;
not in any political vote; not in a family vote; not in any aspect of life - never! never! never!
Well done Saints/County :not worth for truly remaining steadfast in the most difficult of circumstances - all of the other 10 clubs - hang your heads in shame - in particular Stewart Milne - an utterly disgraceful performance - and Doncaster if you have no power at least show some neutrality.

[Gatecrasher]

I love how Doncaster spent the last couple of months campaigning for the 12-12-18 to go through and when it doesn't he cant comment because he represents all 12 clubs. The guy is a total imposter.

[bigwheel]

Stewart Gilmour indicated on Sportsound last night there were 2 main issues - League Structure / Voting Structure and was about to explain why but Richard Gordon and other journos kept prompting "what else? what else?, it can't just be about that?" - how incompetent are these journos? - if they had just let Stewart answer they would have found the key to the whole issue - the big deal; the main factor. If St Mirren claim that league/vote structure are the 2 main issues and they WOULD have conceded league structure in return for vote structure - the sticking point is the 11-1 voting structure - Tom English quoted himself - "only in North Korea would such a structure exist".
Nothing more, nothing less - power and control mad clubs stop growth of Scottish football shocker!!
A 42-club structure effectively run by one or two greedy clubs - no thanks; not in any event; not in any business;
not in any political vote; not in a family vote; not in any aspect of life - never! never! never!
Well done Saints/County :not worth for truly remaining steadfast in the most difficult of circumstances - all of the other 10 clubs - hang your heads in shame - in particular Stewart Milne - an utterly disgraceful performance - and Doncaster if you have no power at least show some neutrality.

Gilmour was offered the compromise he asked for ...he still didn't accept it . He wants a 14 team league, as it would protect his club more - he just hasn't came out and admitted it . He also has taken a tactical stance as he doesn't want to lose 300k of income next year . It's a short term won that is hurting Our football . You are right , the journo's should have listened more , as his weak arguments would have been exposed more clearly . He has said nothing convincing in 72 hrs since the vote .

[J-C]

Gilmour was offered the compromise he asked for ...he still didn't accept it . He wants a 14 team league, as it would protect his club more - he just hasn't came out and admitted it . He also has taken a tactical stance as he doesn't want to lose 300k of income next year . It's a short term won that is hurting Our football . You are right , the journo's should have listened more , as his weak arguments would have been exposed more clearly . He has said nothing convincing in 72 hrs since the vote .


He wants a 14 team league because in their fans poll it was the overwhelming one wanted, look back in all the posts here and you'll see the same thing, 14 team league wanted.

[SadiesBhoy AKA FannyBhoy]

Bill Milne

T.hanks fora the reply. I wasn't aware that anyone in an official capacity at Celtic had whined about Them not being in the SPL. Yes I've seen statements by players, ex-players and we have to listen to the rubbish spouted by clowns like Jim Duffy, Andy Walker etc about getting them back to the top flight ASAP. I think they worry about their jobs and players who have endorsed this view feel under pressure by the media. Think of the reaction in the media if a Celtic player came out and said, " no I'm glad they died. I never want to see or play them again." Trust me they would be hounded mercilessly in the streets.
I'd be very surprised if Peter Lawell had said this. You may have noticed that statements from Celtic have been few and far between. Celtic have to be very careful of what they say in the current climate.People get stabbed and have their throats cut for very little in this neck of the woods for wearing the wrong colour never mind saying things that other people don't want to hear. Lawell made it clear that Celtic were a stand alone club with a financial plan and were doing very well, thank you. He tends to make fairly bland statements after coming under pressure from the Celtic message boards to make our position clear. I'm sure he only said that we were a stand alone club because the media were in full flow with their "Save Rangers" campaign and how the OF we're needed in Scottish football. The Celtic support were in meltdown about this and demanded that our position be made clear. We have campaigned for separate sponsorship deals, distancing ourselves from the OF tag which we hate as it portrays us as one side of a double headed coin which we are not. We are heartily fed up with reading headlines after incidents involving their supporters of "Old Firm" fans cause trouble at ..... When we had no involvement whatsoever when you actually read the bloody story.

[alexedwards]

Gilmour was offered the compromise he asked for ...he still didn't accept it . He wants a 14 team league, as it would protect his club more - he just hasn't came out and admitted it . He also has taken a tactical stance as he doesn't want to lose 300k of income next year . It's a short term won that is hurting Our football . You are right , the journo's should have listened more , as his weak arguments would have been exposed more clearly . He has said nothing convincing in 72 hrs since the vote .

No he wasn't. He was offered a scrap from the table - look at the fact! The only concession was the 11-1 vote
would be dropped on league reconstruction matters only - and that was so they could squeeze the vote through on the day - big deal!! That's not the way the vote needs to be changed - for ONE item - GTF!
The 11-1 MUST be changed for all matters - particularly those of a financial nature.
Everything he has said is critical and is what prevents the game moving forward.
It's Stewart Milne that needs checking - as there was an earlier option to change the voting structure - rejected by Celtic - and Aberdeen - yet Stewart Milne publicly tears a strip of Gilmour for his rejection while conveniently forgetting his own.
Can't see a logical argument to agree with anything that you have said.
It's a clear as day on which side lay the lies. Doncaster claims TV/sponsors will decline options - asked to quantify - unable to provide any evidence to support same and that is in the Board-room. No thanks!

[Saorsa]

Gilmour was offered the compromise he asked for ...he still didn't accept it . He wants a 14 team league, as it would protect his club more - he just hasn't came out and admitted it . He also has taken a tactical stance as he doesn't want to lose 300k of income next year . It's a short term won that is hurting Our football . You are right , the journo's should have listened more , as his weak arguments would have been exposed more clearly . He has said nothing convincing in 72 hrs since the vote .What was it that Gilmour was offered he asked for? 9-3 instead of 11-1 for league reconstruction only? As I read it he wanted more than that removed from the 11-1 vote and rightly so, it should be removed altogether IMO. They offered the 9-3 league restructuring only in the hope of getting their own way only, nowt else. If Milne at the sheep had voted tae get rid of the 11-1 instead of siding with the smellies it would have went through but he had his own selfish reasons so the blame for all of this disnae lie with St. Mirren & Ross County alone. You think it's hurting our fitba, well IMO it's the unfairness that has been doing that and allowing that tae continue under any league structure will change nowt, just shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic. SSDD IMO.

[Saorsa]

No he wasn't. He was offered a scrap from the table - look at the fact! The only concession was the 11-1 vote
would be dropped on league reconstruction matters only - and that was so they could squeeze the vote through on the day - big deal!! That's not the way the vote needs to be changed - for ONE item - GTF!
The 11-1 MUST be changed for all matters - particularly those of a financial nature.
Everything he has said is critical and is what prevents the game moving forward.
It's Stewart Milne that needs checking - as there was an earlier option to change the voting structure - rejected by Celtic - and Aberdeen - yet Stewart Milne publicly tears a strip of Gilmour for his rejection while conveniently forgetting his own.
Can't see a logical argument to agree with anything that you have said.
It's a clear as day on which side lay the lies. Doncaster claims TV/sponsors will decline options - asked to quantify - unable to provide any evidence to support same and that is in the Board-room. No thanks!:agree:

You have tae laugh at Milne and the smellies, two clubs that used the 11-1/90% voting system tae keep it in place have the brass neck tae complain when two other clubs then use it tae what they see as their advantage :hilarious Hypocrisy, a game the whole SPL can play :agree:

[Saorsa]

Only when they all put their own agendas aside will anything change for the good of the whole. I for one winnae be hauding my breath waiting on that happening because none of them can see past the end of their own ****in' noses. None of them can see that if we dinnae get a game that is fair for all (and that includes what the majority of fans want IMO), soon there winnae be a game worth having for any.

[bigwheel]

No he wasn't. He was offered a scrap from the table - look at the fact! The only concession was the 11-1 vote
would be dropped on league reconstruction matters only - and that was so they could squeeze the vote through on the day - big deal!! That's not the way the vote needs to be changed - for ONE item - GTF!
The 11-1 MUST be changed for all matters - particularly those of a financial nature.
Everything he has said is critical and is what prevents the game moving forward.
It's Stewart Milne that needs checking - as there was an earlier option to change the voting structure - rejected by Celtic - and Aberdeen - yet Stewart Milne publicly tears a strip of Gilmour for his rejection while conveniently forgetting his own.
Can't see a logical argument to agree with anything that you have said.
It's a clear as day on which side lay the lies. Doncaster claims TV/sponsors will decline options - asked to quantify - unable to provide any evidence to support same and that is in the Board-room. No thanks!

everyone including the two no votes agreed that 11-1 was acceptable for some matters under their governance . The material point Gilmour was asking for was a move around league changes , they called his bluff , he still walked away . He has done this with only his clubs interest at heart . The other clubs , including our own were losing out in the short term , but thy tried to do the right thing .

[bigwheel]

What was it that Gilmour was offered he asked for? 9-3 instead of 11-1 for league reconstruction only? As I read it he wanted more than that removed from the 11-1 vote and rightly so, it should be removed altogether IMO. They offered the 9-3 league restructuring only in the hope of getting their own way only, nowt else. If Milne at the sheep had voted tae get rid of the 11-1 instead of siding with the smellies it would have went through but he had his own selfish reasons so the blame for all of this disnae lie with St. Mirren & Ross County alone. You think it's hurting our fitba, well IMO it's the unfairness that has been doing that and allowing that tae continue under any league structure will change nowt, just shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic. SSDD IMO.

There are multi issues that have me is to this place . But one fact that is clear is that the two no votes have hurt our game more than the Yes votes would have . You can't reverse history only take steps forward . They have blocked they only viable deal .

No one has given a better solution - no one . 16 team does not work financially - it will never happen . 14 teams which Gilmour wants has never been explained with clarity , and has never been shown to be better than 12 12 18.

[Saorsa]

There are multi issues that have me is to this place . But one fact that is clear is that the two no votes have hurt our game more than the Yes votes would have . You can't reverse history only take steps forward . They have blocked they only viable deal .

No one has given a better solution - no one . 16 team does not work financially - it will never happen . 14 teams which Gilmour wants has never been explained with clarity , and has never been shown to be better than 12 12 18.That's your opinion and yer entitled tae it, I disagree. As far as I'm concerned changing the leagues while leaving such things in place will change nowt. You still fail tae mention (or put any of the blame on) the other two earlier no voters that would have seen the removal of the 90% and the new league vote passed regardless of St. Mirren & Ross County. What about Milne's agenda? What about smellsick's agenda? IMO they and particularly Milne, are just as culpable for the vote no being passed because they wanted tae retain a voting system everybody else wanted rid of.

[bigwheel]

That's your opinion and yer entitled tae it, I disagree. As far as I'm concerned changing the leagues while leaving such things in place will change nowt. You still fail tae mention the other two ealier no votes that would have seen the removal of the 90% and the new league vote passed regardless of St. Mirren & Ross County. What about Milne's agenda? What about smellsick's agenda? IMO they and particularly Milne, are just as culpable for the vote no being passed because they wanted tae retain a voting system everybody else wanted rid of.

I did refer that many issues have got us to where we are . I was commenting on the events of this week .

[Saorsa]

I did refer that many issues have got us to where we are . I was commenting on the events of this week .Nae point though IMO of taking bits in isolation when the problem needs dealt with as a whole, changing only bits will solve nothing. St. Mirren & Ross County scuppered the vote this week for their reasons, which they couldnae have done if smellsick and the sheep hadnae scuppered the previous vote for their reasons. I dinnae see how blaming two teams proves anything, they're all pushing their own agendas and until that stops nothing will change and nothing will be solved. I'm also just highlighting the hypocrisy of certain parties.

Anyway no going round in circles on this, for my part I'm glad it got binned because I think it was ***** and the real issue of unfairness is being avoided again.

[bigwheel]

What was so "unfair" in what was proposed ?

One league body , fairer distribution of income , playoffs , pyramid structure , changed voting rights

Your point seems to be we should have fixed the "unfair" voting issue earlier...that probably true , but we didn't . So this week there was a chance to bring many positive changes to the game and St Mirren and Ross county chose not to. That is simply fact .

No one believes the proposals were perfect, far from it , but they were the best option likely to secure progress.

[MB62]

What was so "unfair" in what was proposed ?

One league body , fairer distribution of income , playoffs , pyramid structure , changed voting rights

Your point seems to be we should have fixed the "unfair" voting issue earlier...that probably true , but we didn't . So this week there was a chance to bring many positive changes to the game and St Mirren and Ross county chose not to. That is simply fact .

No one believes the proposals were perfect, far from it , but they were the best option likely to secure progress.

Apart from a third of the league losing ALL their points won?
Seems fair enough to me :brickwall

[jdships]

Nae point though IMO of taking bits in isolation when the problem needs dealt with as a whole, changing only bits will solve nothing. St. Mirren & Ross County scuppered the vote this week for their reasons, smellsick and the sheep scuppered the vote the time before for their reasons. I dinnae see how blaming two teams proves anything, they're all pushing their own agendas and until that stops nothing will change and nothing will be solved. I'm also just highlighting the hypocrisy of certain parties.

Anyway no going round in circles on this, for my part I'm glad it got binned because I think it was ***** and the real issue of unfairness is being avoided again.


IMO what you say is as near the truth as things are going to get :thumbsup:
The status quo is unnaceptable , that we are mostly agreed on , and surely the 'blazers' must realise the supporters want ENTERTAINMENT
Re Scottish Football in general
As it stands , for me , the fat lady has sung, and we are just waiting for the death knell of Scottish football.
Part time football beckons for any team outwith the top ten/twelve
I am bored to tears with playing each other four times a year !!
Have watched more rugby than football this past twelve months and have thoroughly enjoyed it !!!!!!!


:yawn:

[bigwheel]

Apart from a third of the league losing ALL their points won?
Seems fair enough to me :brickwall

So come up with a better option then ? It's easy to highlight negatives - what's your solution ?

[bigwheel]

IMO what you say is as near the truth as things are going to get :thumbsup:
The status quo is unnaceptable , that we are mostly agreed on , and surely the 'blazers' must realise the supporters want ENTERTAINMENT
Re Scottish Football in general
As it stands , for me , the fat lady has sung, and we are just waiting for the death knell of Scottish football.
Part time football beckons for any team outwith the top ten/twelve
I am bored to tears with playing each other four times a year !!
Have watched more rugby than football this past twelve months and have thoroughly enjoyed it !!!!!!!


:yawn:

So what's the answer ?

Bigger leagues ? Doesn't work financially and will create more meaningless games..

Play each other less but keep league size similar - doesn't work financially ?

I've not yet read a better solution than the one that was proposed . And yes, that had notable flaws ... I'd love to support a better solution...but haven't heard one...

[lord bunberry]

So what's the answer ?

Bigger leagues ? Doesn't work financially and will create more meaningless games..

Play each other less but keep league size similar - doesn't work financially ?

I've not yet read a better solution than the one that was proposed . And yes, that had notable flaws ... I'd love to support a better solution...but haven't heard one...

How would a 20 team league not work finacially. We already have 5 meaningless games this season and no matter what league structure we have there will be meaningless games. The only reason for not having bigger leagues is that there would only be 2 old firm games so yet again the new proposals are designed to ensure 4 old firm games and everyone else is just an afterthought

[bigwheel]

You actually want to create a league where most of the teams would have little chance of relegation or top 4 finish ?

[Saorsa]

What was so "unfair" in what was proposed ?

One league body , fairer distribution of income , playoffs , pyramid structure , changed voting rights

Your point seems to be we should have fixed the "unfair" voting issue earlier...that probably true , but we didn't . So this week there was a chance to bring many positive changes to the game and St Mirren and Ross county chose not to. That is simply fact .

No one believes the proposals were perfect, far from it , but they were the best option likely to secure progress.My point is that is exactly what needs addressed before they bother tinkering with anything else. Different league structure but with two teams still in a position tae effectively veto anything of importance that disnae suit them = nae change. Now was the chance tae get rid of that ridiculous 90% (that's only 10% less than North Korea) bull**** on all issues once and for all. You keep mentioning changed voting rights but it was on one issue and only one issue and even then was it only done by those that favoured the new league setup in the hope that they could get their own way and for nae other reason than that.

That again is your opinion and that of those who favoured it, but that's what it is an opinion, nowt else, and others disagree with it, and that is how we'll continue.

[MB62]

So come up with a better option then ? It's easy to highlight negatives - what's your solution ?

I have already stated on this thread that in my opinion there is NO solution, or at least no solution that will ever be put in to practice as it's too drastic or radical.

What I would like to know is, why do the other 10 clubs think that all of a sudden, thousands of more fans are going to come out and watch their teams in this new set up? Have they actually asked the fans if this is what we want then listened?
Some numpty, might have been Davy Hay, in the papers today said that there was 9,000 at the Partick v Morton game at the weekend and if this had been under the new 12-12-18 there would have been thousands more, aye? really? and where does he get this idea from? done a survey already has he?

We have what we have and all the shuffling around with league set ups will not work. It will change things for a few years, then when it is becomes stale again, they will want to change it to something else.
Basically, we have too many clubs and not enough fans and of the fans we do have supporting the game about 70% of them support two clubs, that's why everybody else is toiling.

[Beefster]

You actually want to create a league where most of the teams would have little chance of relegation or top 4 finish ?

What's the relevance of finishing 4th?

Currently, most teams in the SPL (which only has 12 teams) have little chance of a European place or relegation.

[lord bunberry]

You actually want to create a league where most of the teams would have little chance of relegation or top 4 finish ?

Maybe teams would start to play without fear and managers would play younger players. No system is going to be perfect but a system that's engineered to ensure 4 old firm games a season is the least perfect in my opinion

[bigwheel]

I have already stated on this thread that in my opinion there is NO solution, or at least no solution that will ever be put in to practice as it's too drastic or radical.

What I would like to know is, why do the other 10 clubs think that all of a sudden, thousands of more fans are going to come out and watch their teams in this new set up? Have they actually asked the fans if this is what we want then listened?
Some numpty, might have been Davy Hay, in the papers today said that there was 9,000 at the Partick v Morton game at the weekend and if this had been under the new 12-12-18 there would have been thousands more, aye? really? and where does he get this idea from? done a survey already has he?

We have what we have and all the shuffling around with league set ups will not work. It will change things for a few years, then when it is becomes stale again, they will want to change it to something else.
Basically, we have too many clubs and not enough fans and of the fans we do have supporting the game about 70% of them support two clubs, that's why everybody else is toiling.

I don't think they expect league changes alone to increase gates . What they do think is hay the proposal provide more meaningful games ...the split creates a league fighting for title and Europe and another fighting for promotions and relegation...more games will have real impact than today.

We saw our crowds in the battle v Dunfermline , so it's likely to help lift the crowds if there are more of these "important" games

They also propose to pass down some of their income to protect those teams who are struggling a little bit more , in particular those who are relegated to reduce the impact .

I'm not for a minute suggesting these proposals are great by the way , I simply feel they were the best chance at this time to create some positive changes to the game (distribution of income , single league body , play foods , pyramid system )

[bigwheel]

What's the relevance of finishing 4th?

Currently, most teams in the SPL (which only has 12 teams) have little chance of a European place or relegation.

That is clearly untrue, when you look at those fighting for European places this year compared to last year ...

Finishing 4th often leads to a European place

[chippy]

So come up with a better option then ? It's easy to highlight negatives - what's your solution ?

There are 2 very good options for a 16 team league that can provide additional games beyond the straight 30. Yes they involve splits and can include/exclude carry over of points into the split and work all the way through the league. The Belgian Pro league model and the Polish league model are 2 examples and are also likely to increase local derbies. The Belgian one would mean top 6 playing 4 times over season so 4 glasgow derbies once sevco return to keep tv happy. I have posted this info before but if you want more detail just ask or google 'Belgian pro league' yourself. Someone else posted the Polish idea and it made the scotsman today i think. That is slightly more imbalanced in that after the 30 game season it splits 8/8 and only one more round of fixtures so we all play 37 games. Not perfect but i think the vast bulk of fans agree the 10 team league failed- too stiflng on young talent/ too easy to be relegated. The current 12 set up is failing and the 12-12-18 is opposed by a large majoriy of fans. I don't know why one of the 16 team models is not set up- it was mooted last year they were considering a modified Belgian model of 16. If you want to restrict the number of cllubs in the top 2 leagues just make the 2cd tier 10 clubs. So that is 26 in the top 2 tiers followed by a national/community league of 16
I do think a 3 by 14 team set up is preferable to the 12-12-18, though I personally favour one of the above. Easy splits for this: top 6 or 7 split and play further 2 times - bottom 7 or 8 similarly. Bottom 2 relegated top 2 from 2cd tier promoted. Top 6 have 36 games, bottom 8 have 40 games oover full season. If you go 7/7 slightly odd with a free weekend for each club but we can surely live with that. Again more local derbies , Fife , Dundee, Glesgae, Renfrew and 4 celt/sevco derbies in a couple of seasons.

[Gatecrasher]

Splits in leagues provide artificial importance of games. Our game against ICT was a must win game for us to have a chance of making the top 6 and it didn't generate the exitement or turnout that these "Important games" ever do. As much as Doncaster and the chairman like to think making the top 6 whilst ideal for us isn't going to get people to turn out in numbers as they hoped. With the 12-12-18 set up its the same thing except with the prospect of relegation. However have a look at how Dundee have performed this season, a team that has had no chance or time to prepare for life in the SPL and they have been doomed since about October any 1st Div team in the middle league could well have the same problems. This split (the middle league in particular) would be a total farce, it makes the first half of the season redundant and you are playing agaist teams in a lower division. Would you pay £400 to watch 1st Division teams to come to ER? I'm not sure I would. Season ticket pricing and structuring would need to be revamped to take into account of this.

IMO there are 2 set ups I would like to be considerd

1. 18 team league and play each other twice
2. 16 team league play each other twice and split 8/8 and play another once.

[bigwheel]

There are 2 very good options for a 16 team league that can provide additional games beyond the straight 30. Yes they involve splits and can include/exclude carry over of points into the split and work all the way through the league. The Belgian Pro league model and the Polish league model are 2 examples and are also likely to increase local derbies. The Belgian one would mean top 6 playing 4 times over season so 4 glasgow derbies once sevco return to keep tv happy. I have posted this info before but if you want more detail just ask or google 'Belgian pro league' yourself. Someone else posted the Polish idea and it made the scotsman today i think. That is slightly more imbalanced in that after the 30 game season it splits 8/8 and only one more round of fixtures so we all play 37 games. Not perfect but i think the vast bulk of fans agree the 10 team league failed- too stiflng on young talent/ too easy to be relegated. The current 12 set up is failing and the 12-12-18 is opposed by a large majoriy of fans. I don't know why one of the 16 team models is not set up- it was mooted last year they were considering a modified Belgian model of 16. If you want to restrict the number of cllubs in the top 2 leagues just make the 2cd tier 10 clubs. So that is 26 in the top 2 tiers followed by a national/community league of 16
I do think a 3 by 14 team set up is preferable to the 12-12-18, though I personally favour one of the above. Easy splits for this: top 6 or 7 split and play further 2 times - bottom 7 or 8 similarly. Bottom 2 relegated top 2 from 2cd tier promoted. Top 6 have 36 games, bottom 8 have 40 games oover full season. If you go 7/7 slightly odd with a free weekend for each club but we can surely live with that. Again more local derbies , Fife , Dundee, Glesgae, Renfrew and 4 celt/sevco derbies in a couple of seasons.

It's good to read some new ideas ...much appreciated

[Saorsa]

IMO there are 2 set ups I would like to be considerd

1. 18 team league and play each other twice
2. 16 team league play each other twice and split 8/8 and play another once.Too bad they dinnae want tae pay anything other than lip service tae what anybody wants though, they'll have polls and discussions then completely ignore everything that anybody else has said.

[JeMeSouviens]

Splits in leagues provide artificial importance of games. Our game against ICT was a must win game for us to have a chance of making the top 6 and it didn't generate the exitement or turnout that these "Important games" ever do. As much as Doncaster and the chairman like to think making the top 6 whilst ideal for us isn't going to get people to turn out in numbers as they hoped. With the 12-12-18 set up its the same thing except with the prospect of relegation. However have a look at how Dundee have performed this season, a team that has had no chance or time to prepare for life in the SPL and they have been doomed since about October any 1st Div team in the middle league could well have the same problems. This split (the middle league in particular) would be a total farce, it makes the first half of the season redundant and you are playing agaist teams in a lower division. Would you pay £400 to watch 1st Division teams to come to ER? I'm not sure I would. Season ticket pricing and structuring would need to be revamped to take into account of this.

IMO there are 2 set ups I would like to be considerd

1. 18 team league and play each other twice
2. 16 team league play each other twice and split 8/8 and play another once.

(2) won't happen in Scotland as it would be assumed the final OF game at whichever's home ground would give an advantage. I think that in principle all teams competing for something should have identical fixture cards, that's why I don't like the present uneven split after 3 rounds.

[Gatecrasher]

Too bad they dinnae want tae pay anything other than lip service tae what anybody wants though, they'll have polls and discussions then completely ignore everything that anybody else has said.
Sadly thats 100% true

[bigwheel]

Splits in leagues provide artificial importance of games. Our game against ICT was a must win game for us to have a chance of making the top 6 and it didn't generate the exitement or turnout that these "Important games" ever do. As much as Doncaster and the chairman like to think making the top 6 whilst ideal for us isn't going to get people to turn out in numbers as they hoped. With the 12-12-18 set up its the same thing except with the prospect of relegation. However have a look at how Dundee have performed this season, a team that has had no chance or time to prepare for life in the SPL and they have been doomed since about October any 1st Div team in the middle league could well have the same problems. This split (the middle league in particular) would be a total farce, it makes the first half of the season redundant and you are playing agaist teams in a lower division. Would you pay £400 to watch 1st Division teams to come to ER? I'm not sure I would. Season ticket pricing and structuring would need to be revamped to take into account of this.

IMO there are 2 set ups I would like to be considerd

1. 18 team league and play each other twice
2. 16 team league play each other twice and split 8/8 and play another once.

I don't think the first option works either financially or to create the right level of competitive games personally ...

I don't like the 3 games option as it create natural disadvantage due to non even home and away games ... It's what I don't like about the current set up too ...


it's good to read some other solutions ...

[bigwheel]

Too bad they dinnae want tae pay anything other than lip service tae what anybody wants though, they'll have polls and discussions then completely ignore everything that anybody else has said.

I think that is very true ...but neither do we understand the impacts of some if those options fans prefer

[Gatecrasher]

I don't think the first option works either financially or to create the right level of competitive games personally ...

I don't like the 3 games option as it create natural disadvantage due to non even home and away games ... It's what I don't like about the current set up too ...


it's good to read some other solutions ...

We dont have any competitive games now, all that happens now is we wait for the derby and cup final. like i said in the main paragraph, splits a generally BS and dont really generate any exitement for people.

[Beefster]

That is clearly untrue, when you look at those fighting for European places this year compared to last year ...

Finishing 4th often leads to a European place

How is it untrue? The European places and relegation place are practically sewn up.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I cannot for the life of me get my head round this "meaningless games" in a bigger league. How does every other country with 16/18/20 teams manage to see out the season? They must have a heck of a lot more meaningless games than we would. Fans want more teams. If fans want it then surely fans will by extension watch it?

[clerriehibs]

Cannot believe the dog's abuse gilmour is getting, when his main beef is the voting structures. That's what all the non-infirm fans want! Don't these chairmen recognise that? There was a compromise offered, but it was ****ty, only offering 9-3 for future league reconstructions. SHARE THE MONEY!

[Gatecrasher]

I cannot for the life of me get my head round this "meaningless games" in a bigger league. How does every other country with 16/18/20 teams manage to see out the season? They must have a heck of a lot more meaningless games than we would. Fans want more teams. If fans want it then surely fans will by extension watch it?it's a load of ***** we even have players telling us how boring our league is and some folk can't see past the 4 old firm games per season.

[s.a.m]

How is it untrue? The European places and relegation place are practically sewn up.

We live in hope, though :greengrin


I cannot for the life of me get my head round this "meaningless games" in a bigger league. How does every other country with 16/18/20 teams manage to see out the season? They must have a heck of a lot more meaningless games than we would. Fans want more teams. If fans want it then surely fans will by extension watch it?

:agree: 'moan the meaningless games.
Within reason, I think they have a useful purpose. As someone else has said, they take some of the pressure off, and gives some opportunity to give youth or fringe players game time. And as you say, they seem to manage fine elsewhere.

[Saorsa]

I think that is very true ...but neither do we understand the impacts of some if those options fans prefersurely they understand the impact of more and more fans getting fed up with SSDD and turning their back on the game, what they have come up with winnae solve that.

They're trying similar tae that which has been tried and discarded elsewhere because it was *****, rather than learn form others mistakes they're copying them. They've got this idea in their heids and want tae hear nae others and particularly any that winnae involve 4 OF games in the future.



And of course there is still the important issue :wink: and no just the embroidery.

[chippy]

surely they understand the impact of more and more fans getting fed up with SSDD and turning their back on the game, what they have come up with winnae solve that.

They're trying similar tae that which has been tried and discarded elsewhere because it was *****, rather than learn form others mistakes they're copying them. They've got this idea in their heids and want tae hear nae others and particularly any that winnae involve 4 OF games in the future.



And of course there is still the important issue :wink: and no just the embroidery.

I think the talk of meaningless games or lack of financial viability caused by an expanded spl 1 are red herrings. As discussed in several posts above, a mix of split options can make up 'lost games' and potentially produce a bit more excitement. Personally i think so-called meaningless games are great for blooding youngsters and having open attacking football. Eddie Turnbull was a fierce critic of the original spl he called it a league with a top and a bottom but no middle. The only reason the spl dont go for the 14/16/18/20 option must be dosh. Sure they talk about how the 12-12-18 model means more dosh transferred from the top 12 through to the second tier- and how the top 2 sacrifice a few hundred grand or so for this. Great i would accept this but i think the top 12 would need to reduce their take by another 2,3 or 4 hundred grand to have a 14 team tier 1 and perhaps a bit more for a 16 team tier 1. That is probably the sticking point as well as the fact some folks do get bogged down in their own rigid thinking patterns- i.e Lawyell and Milne. They
seem much too risk averse to go for or compromise with the fans favoured options. I have no evidence but I would not be surprised if Hibs would go for the expanded league as i feel we would be one of the main beneficiaries wheras the likes of Killie, Well , United, near defunct Herts and of course Celtic are reluctant to part with more of the tv cash they see as theirs by right ( until of course they are in a relegation position)

[Keith_M]

RE: 'Meaningless Games'


If we go for a league of 18, the complaint is that there will be lots of meaningless games

If we go for a smaller league where every club has something to play for, we get the complaint that we can never blood youngsters because there's 'too much pressure'


There's no system that is perfect in every respect. With that in mind, why not just try one that the fans want? Every other business looks for what appeals to the customer. It's time football did that as well.


Also, get rid of the 11-1 vote. No one wants it except Celtc and The Rangers.

[Eyrie]

So let me get this straight. It is a better idea to have a 16 or 18 team league with one home game against the Yams and one against Livingston than it is to have a 12-12-18 set up where we can have two home games against the Yams? Hmmm, I wonder which I'd rather see? And remember that there will be close to a full house at the PBS for the next derby which is a meaningless end of season fixture. For comparison, how many fans will turn out for a visit by Dundee on the final day?

And what is better financially? Replace two large attendances against the Yams and Septic with one visit each by Livingston and Partick? What will appeal more to fans, sponsors and the TV companies?

I can’t see a larger league making any sense. Even the argument that playing the same teams four times a season doesn’t hold that much water unless you go to every away game. For the home fans it’s only twice and the turnout for Dunfermline’s second visit last season highlighted that what is desired is a meaningful game, not different opposition.

But regardless of the league structure, the 11-1 has to go for almost everything. Might keep it for gate sharing or something which would unduly disadvantage one club more than the others, but not for competition related matters like a salary cap (65% of the previous season’s audited turnover with automatic points penalties for exceeding that would be a good move).

[Crazyhorse]

There are 2 very good options for a 16 team league that can provide additional games beyond the straight 30. Yes they involve splits and can include/exclude carry over of points into the split and work all the way through the league. The Belgian Pro league model and the Polish league model are 2 examples and are also likely to increase local derbies. The Belgian one would mean top 6 playing 4 times over season so 4 glasgow derbies once sevco return to keep tv happy. I have posted this info before but if you want more detail just ask or google 'Belgian pro league' yourself. Someone else posted the Polish idea and it made the scotsman today i think. That is slightly more imbalanced in that after the 30 game season it splits 8/8 and only one more round of fixtures so we all play 37 games. Not perfect but i think the vast bulk of fans agree the 10 team league failed- too stiflng on young talent/ too easy to be relegated. The current 12 set up is failing and the 12-12-18 is opposed by a large majoriy of fans. I don't know why one of the 16 team models is not set up- it was mooted last year they were considering a modified Belgian model of 16. If you want to restrict the number of cllubs in the top 2 leagues just make the 2cd tier 10 clubs. So that is 26 in the top 2 tiers followed by a national/community league of 16
I do think a 3 by 14 team set up is preferable to the 12-12-18, though I personally favour one of the above. Easy splits for this: top 6 or 7 split and play further 2 times - bottom 7 or 8 similarly. Bottom 2 relegated top 2 from 2cd tier promoted. Top 6 have 36 games, bottom 8 have 40 games oover full season. If you go 7/7 slightly odd with a free weekend for each club but we can surely live with that. Again more local derbies , Fife , Dundee, Glesgae, Renfrew and 4 celt/sevco derbies in a couple of seasons.

Having lived in Belgium I agree with you. Its fairly complex with various play off mini leagues at the end of the season but it is usually exciting for the vast majority of teams to the end. Belgian football tried various setups and structure to get out of the doldrums a decade or so ago. The current league system has coincided with much more domestic competition and a rise in quality of Belgian football and footballers.

I think the problem for Scottish football is that many of the competing/squabbling actors don't really care about improving the standard of the game if it means sacrifice on their part. The chiefest of all the clowns in all this being the Aberdeen owner in my view.

[Crazyhorse]

So let me get this straight. It is a better idea to have a 16 or 18 team league with one home game against the Yams and one against Livingston than it is to have a 12-12-18 set up where we can have two home games against the Yams? Hmmm, I wonder which I'd rather see? And remember that there will be close to a full house at the PBS for the next derby which is a meaningless end of season fixture. For comparison, how many fans will turn out for a visit by Dundee on the final day?

And what is better financially? Replace two large attendances against the Yams and Septic with one visit each by Livingston and Partick? What will appeal more to fans, sponsors and the TV companies?

I can’t see a larger league making any sense. Even the argument that playing the same teams four times a season doesn’t hold that much water unless you go to every away game. For the home fans it’s only twice and the turnout for Dunfermline’s second visit last season highlighted that what is desired is a meaningful game, not different opposition.

But regardless of the league structure, the 11-1 has to go for almost everything. Might keep it for gate sharing or something which would unduly disadvantage one club more than the others, but not for competition related matters like a salary cap (65% of the previous season’s audited turnover with automatic points penalties for exceeding that would be a good move).

You could try reading Chippy's posts on the Belgian league. Hibs now have have a bunch of meaningless games and one meaningful one. If they were in a similar position in Belgium going into the last 4 or 5 games its highly likely all of them would be meaningful in respect a European place.

[Eyrie]

You could try reading Chippy's posts on the Belgian league. Hibs now have have a bunch of meaningless games and one meaningful one. If they were in a similar position in Belgium going into the last 4 or 5 games its highly likely all of them would be meaningful in respect a European place.
I have - they've basically come up with a very complicated system to try to find meaningful games at the end of the season which the failed proposal for three groups of eight offered in a simple manner. And I'm not a fan of the illogical split after 33 games either.

[Lucius Apuleius]

So let me get this straight. It is a better idea to have a 16 or 18 team league with one home game against the Yams and one against Livingston than it is to have a 12-12-18 set up where we can have two home games against the Yams? Hmmm, I wonder which I'd rather see? And remember that there will be close to a full house at the PBS for the next derby which is a meaningless end of season fixture. For comparison, how many fans will turn out for a visit by Dundee on the final day?

And what is better financially? Replace two large attendances against the Yams and Septic with one visit each by Livingston and Partick? What will appeal more to fans, sponsors and the TV companies?

I can’t see a larger league making any sense. Even the argument that playing the same teams four times a season doesn’t hold that much water unless you go to every away game. For the home fans it’s only twice and the turnout for Dunfermline’s second visit last season highlighted that what is desired is a meaningful game, not different opposition.

But regardless of the league structure, the 11-1 has to go for almost everything. Might keep it for gate sharing or something which would unduly disadvantage one club more than the others, but not for competition related matters like a salary cap (65% of the previous season’s audited turnover with automatic points penalties for exceeding that would be a good move).

Because I think you are looking at it mainly from a financial angle, which appears to be the same angle as most of the chairmen. Most of us appear to look at the other angle that says playing each other twice only gave us a better chance of higher placement in the leagues and more exciting seasons.

[degenerated]

The problem here is that short term financial gain is the key driver in everything they are trying to put forward. By only playing teams twice per season it would make the league less stale and those challenging should theoretically have more chance of keeping up with the old firm. That would create more interest in the product and maybe deliver a long term financial benefit.

[marinello59]

The problem here is that short term financial gain is the key driver in everything they are trying to put forward. By only playing teams twice per season it would make the league less stale and those challenging should theoretically have more chance of keeping up with the old firm. That would create more interest in the product and maybe deliver a long term financial benefit.

That bit is the key for me. The Old Firm will always be able to pay for much better players but only playing them twice will lessen the advantage that gives them. I am not so sure about the middle of the league being less stale though. The old First Division wasn't packed full of pulsating fixtures every week. An 18 team league for me simply playing the other teams twice but that would have to be reached in stages. I favour the much maligned SPL2 for a 2/3 seasons to enable a fairer distribution of funds between the top clubs to have effect so that when we do get to an 18 team league we have 18 teams able to compete properly.

[Feed McGraw]

Its funny, but in the old 18 team 1st division, I think some of my fellow, more mature Hibbies might agree, there didn`t feel like there was meaningless games at all really. No matter where Hibs were in the league, we just loved going to the match and watching Hibs, being entertained and enjoying good football from good footballers.


Times have changed I suppose, but it was all so simple, really.

[jdships]

Its funny, but in the old 18 team 1st division, I think some of my fellow, more mature Hibbies might agree, there didn`t feel like there was meaningless games at all really. No matter where Hibs were in the league, we just loved going to the match and watching Hibs, being entertained and enjoying good football from good footballers.


Times have changed I suppose, but it was all so simple, really.

:thumbsup::top marks

[Eyrie]

Because I think you are looking at it mainly from a financial angle, which appears to be the same angle as most of the chairmen. Most of us appear to look at the other angle that says playing each other twice only gave us a better chance of higher placement in the leagues and more exciting seasons.

I understand what you're saying about not dropping points against the Ugly Sisters Mk2 so that could make the league more competitive, but conversely it could be argued that by playing their closest challengers four times a season there are more opportunities for the Ugly Sisters to drop points than if they play those challengers twice and have two games against clubs from lower in the structure. Outwith the Ugly Sisters there is less of a difference in standard and those challengers are more likely to drop points against the other clubs that have joined the league through expansion.

I wouldn't discount the financial angle so readily. The money isn't there to have a properly competitive 18 team top flight and by spreading it more thinly amongst the clubs there will be even more of a problem with players being lost to England for better wages (even if we remove the current ridiculous overpayment of prize money to the top two places).

A way though does need to be found to minimise the effect of relegation from the top division, which is why I continue to favour the 12-12-18 set up which creates a fluid situation in the middle with less pressure on clubs to either be promoted to a top 12 or survive demotion from it. Relegation would still be a financial headache with a 18 team league as the money in the top division would be substantially more than that available to a club in the second division.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I understand what you're saying about not dropping points against the Ugly Sisters Mk2 so that could make the league more competitive, but conversely it could be argued that by playing their closest challengers four times a season there are more opportunities for the Ugly Sisters to drop points than if they play those challengers twice and have two games against clubs from lower in the structure. Outwith the Ugly Sisters there is less of a difference in standard and those challengers are more likely to drop points against the other clubs that have joined the league through expansion.

I wouldn't discount the financial angle so readily. The money isn't there to have a properly competitive 18 team top flight and by spreading it more thinly amongst the clubs there will be even more of a problem with players being lost to England for better wages (even if we remove the current ridiculous overpayment of prize money to the top two places).

A way though does need to be found to minimise the effect of relegation from the top division, which is why I continue to favour the 12-12-18 set up which creates a fluid situation in the middle with less pressure on clubs to either be promoted to a top 12 or survive demotion from it. Relegation would still be a financial headache with a 18 team league as the money in the top division would be substantially more than that available to a club in the second division.

Them playing each other is only 12 points out of the season. It does not matter what they do to each other as none of us are anywhere near them.

Not discounting the financial argument, just do not believe it should be the driver.

[MyJo]

I would like to see a 16 team SPL & 16 team Championship set up playing each other 1 home and 1 away giving a 30 game season with more promotion/relegation places and play-offs included.

Change the league cup structure to be a champions league format competition with the 32 teams playing in 8 groups of 4 giving each of the 32 teams a further 6 guaranteed games per season (effectively giving the top two leagues a 36 game season).

The groups in the league cup can be regionalised so that they can include more Derby matches for the fans outwith the ones in the SPL/Championship and give the league the desired 4 OF games a season to televise but would also give other clubs more derby matches per season without the monotony of having to play every club in the league 4 times. The top two clubs in each of these leagues progress to the knockout rounds of the cup playing 2-legged games until the final.

The third division can remain a ten team league with a 36 game season and regionalised leagues in a pyramid system below this.

[MrHibs1982]

I have just been reading that the St Mirren fans are applauding Gilmour for his decision on the league restructure and I imagine that the County fans will also do the same for MacGregor.

Will any Hibs fans be showing the support for these two men and their decision on Monday night and do you think any other sets of supporters will show their support for these men/clubs and the decisions they made?!

[Spike Mandela]

I have just been reading that the St Mirren fans are applauding Gilmour for his decision on the league restructure and I imagine that the County fans will also do the same for MacGregor.

Will any Hibs fans be showing the support for these two men and their decision on Monday night and do you think any other sets of supporters will show their support for these men/clubs and the decisions they made?!

Ehhhhhhh no.

[down-the-slope]

Back on thread after few days gap.....still going in circles I see :greengrin

Can I just remind everyone that from what knowledge I have the driver for new set up was to get a 'product' that TV & sponsors (as they go hand in hand) would pay more for, as central revenues are such a massive part of most clubs budgets.

While I hate the idea of 'Summer Football' I think that for the same reasons - that it would be a 'product' available to sponsors / TV when less to fill schedules / get customer attention and so have more potential value - it may get serious consideration in near future...

PS while not perfect what was proposed was better than we have in a number of areas (leaving voting unchanged aside)

[Beefster]

Back on thread after few days gap.....still going in circles I see :greengrin

Can I just remind everyone that from what knowledge I have the driver for new set up was to get a 'product' that TV & sponsors (as they go hand in hand) would pay more for, as central revenues are such a massive part of most clubs budgets.

While I hate the idea of 'Summer Football' I think that for the same reasons - that it would be a 'product' available to sponsors / TV when less to fill schedules / get customer attention and so have more potential value - it may get serious consideration in near future...

PS while not perfect what was proposed was better than we have in a number of areas (leaving voting unchanged aside)

Whilst the clubs continue to concentrate on pleasing a TV company and some sponsors whilst ignoring the wishes of a majority of their customers, the attendances will continue to drop. If everything is set up for TV, some folk will give up and just watch it on TV.

Less interest in the game = less future revenue from TV, sponsors and supporters.

[Part/Time Supporter]

BBC gossip states that one of the papers reports that Rod proposed another plan (with support from Killie) to merge the SPL and SFL1, but this was rejected by the others. I can't find a link to the original story (yet).

Presumably this was a failed attempt to save some of the "good bits" from the original plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/scottish/gossip/

[ronaldo7]

BBC gossip states that one of the papers reports that Rod proposed another plan (with support from Killie) to merge the SPL and SFL1, but this was rejected by the others. I can't find a link to the original story (yet).

Presumably this was a failed attempt to save some of the "good bits" from the original plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/scottish/gossip/

Looks like they are trying again.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/spl-clubs-to-meet-again-over-league-change-plans-1-2912564

[Saorsa]

Looks like they are trying again.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/spl-clubs-to-meet-again-over-league-change-plans-1-2912564I wonder if the removal of the 90% voting system is tae be discussed. :rolleyes:

[Don Giovanni]

I wonder if the removal of the 90% voting system is tae be discussed. :rolleyes:

I don't think a change to the 90% rule is on the table, unfortunately, but at least they seem to have dropped the ridiculous league format (even if that means sticking with the far-from-perfect current structure).

I think the main benefits are in moving towards the so-called 5 principals, which IMO hold a lot of merit.
The authorities and custodians of our national sport have been trying to confuse matters with insisting on a change to the league structure. Thankfully Ross County & St. Mirren stood against this nonsense and hey-presto! we can just cherry pick the best bits after all.

I hope the 5 principals are approved and that this is the first sensible step toward improving the game in Scotland.

[Billy Whizz]

If they go with play off's as being suggested, does this do away with the top 6 split?

[Sylar]

Plans shelved yet again and any notion of financial redistribution models or playoffs dead in the water.

Far too much self-interest and self-preservation by all 12 SPL chairmen who continue to put pounds before punters, our own included. We're never likely to see change in the Scottish game until the blazers and pseudo-fat cats are replaced by people who actually care about both the clubs and the wider game.

An anti-democratic voting structure, an archaic promotion/relegation structure, no pyramid system, financially biased to benefit only a few clubs, mass examples of empty stadia, multiple clubs heading to financial ruin, cost vastly exceeds quality, young players exodus' from their various clubs to the better financial havens south of the border as clubs get shafted in the process, the worst national side in history, an incompetent board of directors spread across three governing authorities, some of the poorest quality officials anywhere in the world (IMO anyway)...the list goes on.

Scottish football isn't dying - it's dead. The saddest part is that nobody who can do anything about it cares. Unless fans agree en masse to start voting with their feet and really fire a wake-up call to all the money men who can influence power structures, oblivion beckons. Sadly, that would result in harming our own club but what good is the status quo to either us as fans or our club?

[blackpoolhibs]

The one thing that i believe is killing football (tv) is used by those in charge as the main bargaining tool. It wont be long before there's nobody at games, and we are all watching from the sofa.

[ancient hibee]

The one thing that i believe is killing football (tv) is used by those in charge as the main bargaining tool. It wont be long before there's nobody at games, and we are all watching from the sofa.


I'll be watching us v Killie on TV but it'll be from behind the sofa if we defend like we did on Saturday.

[chippy]

Are they mad? Would hibs and united agree to play offs for relegation involving 11th and possibly 9th and 10th in spl. So instead of a larger league we end up with 11 teams struggling against relegation until the split. Not much attacking football if that scenario unfolds. Interestingly for whatever genius dreamed it up if play offs are good enough for say those placed 11, 10 or even 9 in spl surely it is good enough to have play offs all the way up the league then for euro spots and god forbid the title. Can't help being suspicious at hertz being in support of the defunct 12-12-18 and now increasing the relegation places as to ease the way for their and eventually their big brothers return to top league. My view keep it as it is unless we get a 14/ 16 team league. All this guff about the 5 principles is diversionary the priority should be a larger league and there are plenty models in the earlier reconstruction thread that would make this work. This insane madness about citing competition as the be all and end all of Scottish football is risking a major mistake.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Its a disaster waiting to happen, but, the play off games v Airdrie is what being a Hibee is all about, squeaky bum time and exciting at the same time, I loved it, probably 'cos we stayed up!

[DH1875]

They should have a play-off between the 11th placed team in the SPL and 2nd in the first. Don't know why Utd wouldn't vote for it but can see why we wouldn't. We'd be deep in the do-do the last couple of years and unless massive changes are made for next year, it'll be a problem.

[Moulin Yarns]

Jim Spence tweeted an hour ago that 10 Sfl clubs are prepared To quit And Form Spl2

[Alex Trager]

@SkySportsNews: Sky sources: Scottish first division clubs are considering resigning from the Scottish Football League. More soon on #ssn

[marinello59]

Jim Spence tweeted an hour ago that 10 Sfl clubs are prepared To quit And Form Spl2

As long as it is used to strengthen the teams in SPL2 so that we can expand SPL1 to 18 clubs within a few years then I would be happy with that.

[jonty]

@SkySportsNews: Sky sources: Scottish first division clubs are considering resigning from the Scottish Football League. More soon on #ssn
Wonder if der hun will quit and join them. Wouldn't be a bad thing for Hearts to do either. :greengrin

[Onion]

Wonder if der hun will quit and join them. Wouldn't be a bad thing for Hearts to do either. :greengrin

From BBC
Ten clubs are ready to quit the Scottish Football League in time for next season, BBC Scotland has learned.

A letter signed by the 10 clubs is to be sent to the Scottish Premier League ahead of their meeting next week.

Rangers are not among the clubs involved in the possible breakaway.



IMHO this is a smokescreen to get the Huns into the SPL 2 for next season. What they'd have us believe is that 10 clubs will resign from the SFL so that the SPL can set up SPL2 and that SEVCO will not be included in the new league ??? They know that if the Huns were among the 10, there would be an almighty outcry by all SPL fans, so they're staying under the radar until its approved and then sneak through the side door. Dirty scheming Huns.:greengrin

[Eyrie]

It does make sense to have a smaller professional league of 20-24 clubs and allow the remaining Second and Third Division sides to focus on being part-time community teams.

But I flagged up the danger of a break away helping Sevco Huns a few weeks ago when the First Division clubs first floated this idea in response to suggestions that the SFL may not approve the 12-12/8-8-8 set up. In the event it was sunk by St Mirren's dodgy agenda (Ross County made it clear why they were against it) so the SFL never voted.

The almighty outcry though will happen at whatever point Sevco Huns are invited into a SPL2 (and they will be). The only way to dampen it would be for them to agree that they cannot be promoted for two years, which would be equivalent to working their way through Divisions Two and One, and there is no way that they would accept that.

[MyJo]

Im assuming the chances of a 22 team SPL with a 42 game season wont be discussed :rolleyes:

[greenpaper55]

If the ten SFL teams resign and form the SPL 2 then how can there be relegation from this unless they come to some arrangement with SFL ?.

[marinello59]

It does make sense to have a smaller professional league of 20-24 clubs and allow the remaining Second and Third Division sides to focus on being part-time community teams.

But I flagged up the danger of a break away helping Sevco Huns a few weeks ago when the First Division clubs first floated this idea in response to suggestions that the SFL may not approve the 12-12/8-8-8 set up. In the event it was sunk by St Mirren's dodgy agenda (Ross County made it clear why they were against it) so the SFL never voted.

The almighty outcry though will happen at whatever point Sevco Huns are invited into a SPL2 (and they will be). The only way to dampen it would be for them to agree that they cannot be promoted for two years, which would be equivalent to working their way through Divisions Two and One, and there is no way that they would accept that.

We really can't be too hung up on whether or not Rangers get back in to the top flight a year earlier than they inevitably will do. If SPL2 really is the best way to safeguard the long term future of the game then that's what we should have. Allowing further stagnation whilst agendas other than ensuring we have an attractive and strong top league are pursued would be madness. As things stand though, happily, they would not be involved.

[Waxy]

Scottish football is a joke.
Should be coming together but are separating further.

Why not 2 leagues of 16.
Two relegation/promotion places and room for play offs

Below that the div 3 teams can join up with 8/10 ambitious teams to form a blue square type league.
1 promotion place and play offs for another.
Below this league two regional north/south leagues.
The winners of which could have a play off say at Hampden for a place in the leagues.
Surely better than the self preserving crap we get just now

[Gatecrasher]

this is the complete wrong direction to be going in, someone needs to step in and take charge of the situation before the game is completely ruined.

[down-the-slope]

this is a mess but hardly surprising as the SFL clubs were given indications that the new 12-12-18 would happen (as in Jan SPL clubs indicated support with some reservations) as so give then and Scottish football some stability over next 3 years at least. A good few are fighting for their very survival so some dramatic moves are not surprising. The big issue is that you can only resign (unless you are mad) if you have somewhere to go...so its a move to pressure SPL into resurrecting reconstruction

Lets hope that things are settled quicker than last season

[HibeeSince85]

I would like to see a 16 team SPL & 16 team Championship set up playing each other 1 home and 1 away giving a 30 game season with more promotion/relegation places and play-offs included.

Change the league cup structure to be a champions league format competition with the 32 teams playing in 8 groups of 4 giving each of the 32 teams a further 6 guaranteed games per season (effectively giving the top two leagues a 36 game season).

The groups in the league cup can be regionalised so that they can include more Derby matches for the fans outwith the ones in the SPL/Championship and give the league the desired 4 OF games a season to televise but would also give other clubs more derby matches per season without the monotony of having to play every club in the league 4 times. The top two clubs in each of these leagues progress to the knockout rounds of the cup playing 2-legged games until the final.

The third division can remain a ten team league with a 36 game season and regionalised leagues in a pyramid system below this.

This could work. The best proposal I've seen.

One thing that must be secured though is the removal of the voting structure. Any reconstruction without this and it's only papering over the cracks.

[DH1875]

What really is the point in an SPL 2? Is it not just the first division under a new name? What if Rangers are invited into it but reject it and stay in the SFL, would that mean they'd never be back or would they just win promotion from the 2nd division to to the SPL2 next year :confused:.

[MyJo]

What really is the point in an SPL 2? Is it not just the first division under a new name? What if Rangers are invited into it but reject it and stay in the SFL, would that mean they'd never be back or would they just win promotion from the 2nd division to to the SPL2 next year :confused:.

1st Division teams currently come under the SFL and the money earned by that league is distributed amongst 30 teams with a top-up from the SPL.

SPL2 would see the 10 clubs that join sharing income with the SPL meaning more cash through sponsorship & tv deals etc than they would earn as part of the SFL, it would also be a way of cushioning the impact of relegation from the SPL because the team who gets demoted to SPL2 would not be facing as large a drop in income as they would going into 1st division.

If this happens (and i think the SPL teams would be up for this) the SPL in its new format would have to agree to a relegation/promotion deal with the SFL for clubs at the bottom to move into what is currently the 2nd division. If this isnt agreed then they will essentially become 2 separate leagues of 2 divisions operating under the SFA and Rangers would remain with the SFL unless invited to join the SPL set-up, which they will.

[Eyrie]

Reading Longmuir's response to the proposed breakaway in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/sfl-breakaway-hopefuls-warned-no-room-at-inn-1-2919636), I can't see the SPL clubs supporting the move for one simple reason. The annual settlement of £1.8m would still have to be paid to the remaining SFL clubs, so the enlarged SPL would not have any more cash to distribute to its increased membership, meaning that the current pot would have to be spread more thinly amongst more clubs.

[marinello59]

Reading Longmuir's response to the proposed breakaway in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/sfl-breakaway-hopefuls-warned-no-room-at-inn-1-2919636), I can't see the SPL clubs supporting the move for one simple reason. The annual settlement of £1.8m would still have to be paid to the remaining SFL clubs, so the enlarged SPL would not have any more cash to distribute to its increased membership, meaning that the current pot would have to be spread more thinly amongst more clubs.

Apparently the SPL clubs were willing to accept that before. Longmuir played his game and lost, now he can only snipe from the sidelines. What a mess.

[Eyrie]

Apparently the SPL clubs were willing to accept that before. Longmuir played his game and lost, now he can only snipe from the sidelines. What a mess.
That was under the proposed 12-12/8-8-8 set up with only one league body, so the £1.8m payment would have ceased when the two leagues merged.

I suppose there could be a negotiated reduction in the £1.8m on the basis that there would only be 20 SFL clubs left rather than 30. The SPL money does need to be spread more equitably than the present weighting to the top two places though, which may give some wriggle room.

[down-the-slope]

Any news / tweets on how this is going......:rolleyes:

[CallumLaidlaw]

@BBCchrismclaug: #SPL agree to single league body of 42 clubs, new distribution of cash and play offs. BBCSport

[H18sry]

http://scottishfans.org/News/splclubsagreechange.aspx

Seems the only difference is the introduction of play-offs

[CallumLaidlaw]

The Scottish Premier League has announced a new plan to push through league reconstruction in time for the 2013/14 season.

In a statement, the SPL said: "At an all-club meeting earlier today at Hampden Park, the 12 Scottish Premier League clubs unanimously agreed on a package of measures that would deliver a merged league in time for season 2013/2014.

"The principles include:

a single merged league of 42 clubs, in line with the stated preference of SFL1 clubs
a 12-10-10-10 divisional structure
an all-through distribution model involving substantial redistribution to the second tier
a ‘pyramid’ for the entire game
play-offs involving team 11 in the SPL and teams 2, 3 and 4 in the division below A formal proposal to deliver the above will be brought back to the SPL clubs for voting this month.
"The SPL looks forward to working with the Scottish FA and Scottish Football League to deliver vibrant change for the game as a whole.

Chairman Ralph Topping commented: "I am pleased that SPL clubs have today agreed on a way forward for the game in this country. We have tremendous sympathy with the SFL1 clubs and their plight and with their shared ambition for a 42-club solution.

"Much work needs to be done in a short space of time to achieve our objective of a single merged league this summer. But, where there is a will, there is a way. The time for action is now"

[Gus Fring]

Next stage: 3 leagues, 16-16-16, no splits!

[CallumLaidlaw]

Next stage: 3 leagues, 16-16-16, no splits!

As much as it would be good, clubs won't agree to losing 4 home games.

[jgl07]

Next stage: 3 leagues, 16-16-16, no splits!

If only.......

[IanM]

do we still have 'the split' ?? hope tae **** they have banished this..

[NW]

what i cannot work out is why SPL clubs voted to give more money to SFL clubs. SPL clubs are skint and SFL cannot find supporters!! Odd

[Gus Fring]

what i cannot work out is why SPL clubs voted to give more money to SFL clubs. SPL clubs are skint and SFL cannot find supporters!! Odd

Perhaps the clubs are finally realising that the money won't be any good if the foundation of the game is crap?

[JimBHibees]

what i cannot work out is why SPL clubs voted to give more money to SFL clubs. SPL clubs are skint and SFL cannot find supporters!! Odd

I think because they may not have had a second tier in a few years. Some of these clubs were having to consider part time. Given how good some of these youth set ups are Hamilton, Livi, Falkirk etc it makes complete sense to redistribute and give a fairer share to these teams.

I understand that Ross County only got 60k from winning the first division last season which is complete nonsense IMO.

[Stringer]

Explain the playoff bit? :confused:

[JimBHibees]

Explain the playoff bit? :confused:

Second bottom SPL team and teams 2, 3 and 4 in First division have play off semi finals and final to decide who is in the SPL for the next season.

[blindsummit]

I take it we get rid of this crap top 6/bottom 6 split then?

[davcar]

Apparently 11th SPL v 4th 1st Div would be 1 S/F the other between 2nd and 3rd with winners to play a final

[JimBHibees]

I take it we get rid of this crap top 6/bottom 6 split then?

I think that will still be in otherwise we are playing 44 league games.

[JimBHibees]

Apart from the play offs is this not the exact same set up as now? Vive la Revolution :confused:

[Stringer]

Second bottom SPL team and teams 2, 3 and 4 in First division have play off semi finals and final to decide who is in the SPL for the next season.

Cheers! Will the play off final be at hampden?

[Pretty Boy]

Getting the whole Scottish game under one umberella is the most important thing going forward so in that respect this is a good start.

[Monts]

Apart from the play offs is this not the exact same set up as now? Vive la Revolution :confused:

The pyramid system is a big step is it not?

Does this not mean teams can be relegated from the 3rd Division?

Also the change to a 42 team set up means one governing body, no? No more 'one rule for SPL, one rule for SFL'?

[Hibrandenburg]

Apart from the play offs is this not the exact same set up as now? Vive la Revolution :confused:

Bit of a damp squib!

[DH1875]

Can someone explain to me what the current SPL teams get out of this. I just don't get it :confused:.

[Togs91]

entertainment wise this has to be a slight step forward, having spending the weekend in bradford with a mate watching the play off weekend, its been a good one!

[IFONLY]

Apparently 11th SPL v 4th 1st Div would be 1 S/F the other between 2nd and 3rd with winners to play a final


Great news at least we will have something to play for at the end of next season.

[Green Man]

Does this now have to get taken forward to the SFL clubs? I know there's been resistance to a pyramid from some of them.

Great if it does go through though, one body is a step forward, a pyramid system is something I've supported for years, and a playoff is a good idea even if it does mean more chance of relegation.

[DH1875]

Apparently 11th SPL v 4th 1st Div would be 1 S/F the other between 2nd and 3rd with winners to play a final


Oh great, so we get two chances of being knocked down if we finish 11th. Very surprised the SPL clubs have voted for this.

[SHODAN]

It's a start.

[JimBHibees]

Cheers! Will the play off final be at hampden?

Probably depend who is playing and their likely support. If Falkirk/St Mirren probably be one of the bigger club grounds like ours for example.

[CallumLaidlaw]

You would hope that redistribution of the cash means its done more fairly than the current %age that goes to the SPL winners.

Some idiot on facebook is already claiming its just the SPL trying to get hold of rangers TV money :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Shame. I was looking forward to seeing how Sevco got on trying to get the only Div 1 promotion spot.

[MB62]

The Scottish Premier League has announced a new plan to push through league reconstruction in time for the 2013/14 season.

In a statement, the SPL said: "At an all-club meeting earlier today at Hampden Park, the 12 Scottish Premier League clubs unanimously agreed on a package of measures that would deliver a merged league in time for season 2013/2014.

"The principles include:

a single merged league of 42 clubs, in line with the stated preference of SFL1 clubs
a 12-10-10-10 divisional structure
an all-through distribution model involving substantial redistribution to the second tier
a ‘pyramid’ for the entire game
play-offs involving team 11 in the SPL and teams 2, 3 and 4 in the division below A formal proposal to deliver the above will be brought back to the SPL clubs for voting this month.
"The SPL looks forward to working with the Scottish FA and Scottish Football League to deliver vibrant change for the game as a whole.

Chairman Ralph Topping commented: "I am pleased that SPL clubs have today agreed on a way forward for the game in this country. We have tremendous sympathy with the SFL1 clubs and their plight and with their shared ambition for a 42-club solution.

"Much work needs to be done in a short space of time to achieve our objective of a single merged league this summer. But, where there is a will, there is a way. The time for action is now"

Many moons ago, when fitba was really fitba and the only colour in boots was the white addidas stripe and when you curled a ball round a wall it was because you had a bit of skill and not because the ball is only slightly heavier than a balloon, and if you got hit in the nuts with it you knew all about it (no honestly, these days did exist) I played in a league in Australia where they used to have a league winner, whoever was top after all the league games were played, but they then had a GRAND FINAL, where thew top four teams played a play off for THE championship.

How it worked was,
1 v 2 (1 being the home team)
3 v 4 (3 being the home team)

The winners of 1v2 went straight in to the final, the losing team had another shot against the winners of 3v4 (losers were out)

The GRAND FINAL was on neutral venue and it was a big nervy occasion and I would be in favour of giving this a try out in reverse for the play off spot.

[Stringer]

Shame. I was looking forward to seeing how Sevco got on trying to get the only Div 1 promotion spot.

Aye. Screams Sevco fast track. Guaranteed they will bring in a spl champions play off so they can lift the spl trophy soon as.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Many moons ago, when fitba was really fitba and the only colour in boots was the white addidas stripe and when you curled a ball round a wall it was because you had a bit of skill and not because the ball is only slightly heavier than a balloon, and if you got hit in the nuts with it you knew all about it (no honestly, these days did exist) I played in a league in Australia where they used to have a league winner, whoever was top after all the league games were played, but they then had a GRAND FINAL, where thew top four teams played a play off for THE championship.

How it worked was,
1 v 2 (1 being the home team)
3 v 4 (3 being the home team)

The winners of 1v2 went straight in to the final, the losing team had another shot against the winners of 3v4 (losers were out)

The GRAND FINAL was on neutral venue and it was a big nervy occasion and I would be in favour of giving this a try out in reverse for the play off spot.

That's called a Page Playoff system. It's used a lot in curling (world championships, Olympics).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_playoff_system

[down-the-slope]

what i cannot work out is why SPL clubs voted to give more money to SFL clubs. SPL clubs are skint and SFL cannot find supporters!! Odd

There is some care for the game as a whole and development of players below...

BUT the big issue is TV & Sponsorship...selling the whole structure to one sponsor and TV will bring in more cash...remember the SPL has no sponsor for next season (who would when it was all up in the air)

[GreenCastle]

Taken from the BBC website comments -

"So when Doncaster said it was a 'take it or leave it' and 'there is no plan b' not tomention 'there is no alternative', he was either not telling the truth or he has been put in his place by his masters (the chairmen of the SPL clubs).

In either case, Doncaster's position in untenable, and he should either leave of his own accord or be dismissed."

:agree:

WE ALSO STILL HAVE THE 11-1 vote !!!

[Beefster]

Tinkering at the edges.

[Waxy]

Play-off for the 11th team is fair enough.
Better deal for the div1 clubs.Plus it's easier for a bigger club to be promoted if they have 1 bad season.
Pyramid system yes.been crying out for it for years.
Though i've no idea how they will work it, they'd better get it right and quickly.

It's all about as perfect as we're going to get imo.
Hope it all pans out like they want it to.