League Reconstruction for 2013/14 (merged)

[Scottie]

I think the average non old firm football fan has had it with Doncaster and the rest of them who are running the game in Scotland. They just donr believe a word that comes from them now.

It wouldn't matter if it was the best idea ever, we just don't trust them at all, they need to go. They are running our game into the ground, and i cant see any way back with this lot in charge.

Every decision seems to be with the old firms best interest, not the game as a whole. I might be wrong, i wish i was but thats just how i feel and many many others.

I just don't believe a word they say anymore.

:thumbsup: :top marks Couldn't sum it up ant better

[Scottie]

I think the average non old firm football fan has had it with Doncaster and the rest of them who are running the game in Scotland. They just donr believe a word that comes from them now.

It wouldn't matter if it was the best idea ever, we just don't trust them at all, they need to go. They are running our game into the ground, and i cant see any way back with this lot in charge.

Every decision seems to be with the old firms best interest, not the game as a whole. I might be wrong, i wish i was but thats just how i feel and many many others.

I just don't believe a word they say anymore.

:thumbsup: Couldn't sum it up any better :top marks

[greenginger]

If Rantic do get their way and join the English leagues at what ever level how long will their fan base remain when it eventually dawns on them that they may never play European football again ?

I think they will quickly discover the grass on the other side of the fence is anything but greener. Sure there will be extra T V money and expectations ...... for a while anyway, but there will not be an endless stream of referees doing favours for them or deaf supervisors ignoring their chants.

It takes more than cash to succeed in that league,it will take years of team building and patience, not a commodity to be found with these clubs.

I'd give them 6 or 7 years then they would be making noises to get back in the Scottish set-up. Any return has to be at great
cost to the deserters.

[GoldenEagle]

Hibernian should be exploring all options right now as well, if a British or Euro league is being mooted then I want to be part of it.

[Smiggy 7-0]

Would rather it was 18-12-12-then whatever as I'm sure there would be plenty interest from Highland and East of Scotland leagues.

[brydekirk]

Would rather it was 18-12-12-then whatever as I'm sure there would be plenty interest from Highland and East of Scotland leagues.
Dinnae fancy that, we cannae beat teams fi the highlands !!

[Spike Mandela]

Question....If the new 12 12 18 proposal is implemented next season and a top tier team(no names:wink:) has an insolvency event in the first 22 games thus having a points penalty causing them to be in bottom 4 will that penalty effectively be removed when they reset all points to zero for the final 14 games?

If so is this yet another SPL sanction that will be ineffectual?

[JeMeSouviens]

Question....If the new 12 12 18 proposal is implemented next season and a top tier team(no names:wink:) has an insolvency event in the first 22 games thus having a points penalty causing them to be in bottom 4 will that penalty effectively be removed when they reset all points to zero for the final 14 games?

If so is this yet another SPL sanction that will be ineffectual?

They have (amazingly) attempted to something about this. It'll be an immediate 10 point penalty with a further 5 points deducted at the time it will have the "most meaningful impact".

[StevieC]

I would suspect (or at least hope) that it would depend on whether they had managed to exit administration prior to the new league starting.

If they pay off everything they are due and have exited administration, whoever the team might be, then they probably deserve to be treated the same as the other teams.

If they are STILL in administration then I would expect at least a 10 point deduction. It may also include a percentage of points gained in first half of the season, but that is likely to create a China/Korea badminton scenario of a team throwing games for a bigger advantage in the 2nd league.

[lord bunberry]

They have (amazingly) attempted to something about this. It'll be an immediate 10 point penalty with a further 5 points deducted at the time it will have the "most meaningful impact".

So a team could be sitting bottom after 21 games and go into administration and the only real punishment would be a 5 point deduction after the split

[147lothian]

A jambo at my work is convinced its 18 if they go into administration

[Sir David Gray]

A jambo at my work is convinced its 18 if they go into administration

It will be if it happens this season because at the moment the rules state that you are deducted either 10 points or a 1/3 of the number of points that you won the previous season, whichever is greater.

Hearts got 54 points last season, so a 1/3 of that number, to the nearest whole number, is 18.

This thread is talking about next season and beyond though.

[Gatecrasher]

Was speaking to a Raith fan at work about Scottish football in general and he told me to have a listen to this http://www.raithrovers.net/7629/league-reconstruction-meeting.htm

some very interesting points some things we knew and some we didnt but it shows what Doncaster and his cronies were willing to do to get their own way. Also interesting to note it wouldnt be worth Raith coming into the SPL should the be promoted with the current set up in place.

also theres some notes here http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/?p=1517 if you dont want to sit through an hour of audio though it misses some of the points out.

[jacomo]

The New Huns (and I'm including Longmuir on the "walks like a duck" principle) are still labouring under the laughable old, tried and failed strategy that Celtc and Huns (Old or New) will somehow be allowed to just up sticks and move by invitation to a different league in another country. Never ever going to happen.

What might happen is UEFA allow a reorganisation of various European Leagues with supranational top levels. However there is no way UEFA will ever allow it if it isn't open to all clubs and doesn't have a proper promotion/relegation pyramid underneath. Lawwell at Celtc seems to have managed to get an inkling of this change.

Hibs should be at the forefront of this, imo, especially if we can get it to happen while the New Maroon Morons are still languishing in the lower leagues.

This is the key for me. The OF plans to leave Scotland have always been promoted as a one-off deal - not only would they elbow a couple of English clubs out of whatever League they join, but they would effectively be immune from relegation back to the SPL.

This would destroy the League system as we know it.

[AndyM_1875]

This is the key for me. The OF plans to leave Scotland have always been promoted as a one-off deal - not only would they elbow a couple of English clubs out of whatever League they join, but they would effectively be immune from relegation back to the SPL.

This would destroy the League system as we know it.

The Old Firm desire to get to the promised land of the English Premiership but it will always be out of their reach. Both are neither needed or wanted by our English friends who find the talk of the Old Firm moving south to be somewhat bemusing.

Rangers are not wanted after the events in Manchester and Celtic's persistent IRA crap goes down like a bacon roll at a Bar Mitzvah. They can talk it up all they like but it will never happen.

[GreenCastle]

The Old Firm desire to get to the promised land of the English Premiership but it will always be out of their reach. Both are neither needed or wanted by our English friends who find the talk of the Old Firm moving south to be somewhat bemusing.

Rangers are not wanted after the events in Manchester and Celtic's persistent IRA crap goes down like a bacon roll at a Bar Mitzvah. They can talk it up all they like but it will never happen.

:agree:

It's complete nonsense they keep going on about it and makes a mockery of the game up here.

One of the biggest problems in Scotland is the media coverage - still fully Old Firm biased - if they were to ever to anywhere else this would still be the same.

This and the league voting need to change. This non sense about colt teams / reserve teams is a farce and could never happen.

The game up here is still driven far too much by money and not with the average supporters interests at heart - that needs to change.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Interesting statement by Hamilton Accies further to the SFL meeting last night.

http://acciesfc.co.uk/


After a near 7 hour meeting at Hampden yesterday I would like to summarise the club's position as follows -

The club are deeply disappointed with the outcome of yesterday's meeting. We met around a month ago when the indication was that some 27 clubs were broadly in favour of the structural changes and principles on the table. It now appears that only 14 clubs are in favour of the package of changes. These include a new set up of 12 12 18, one governing body, a much fairer distribution model, more promotion and relegation places and, in my opinion, many more exciting games. The SPL clubs have moved considerably from the position they held a few seasons ago when we were part of the reconstruction debate, and my feeling is that if we do not embrace the changes now they may never happen. It has always been my intention to try and find a 42 club solution.

However it appears that lower league clubs, either through self interest or indeed for other reasons, feel they cannot support the structural changes on offer. With this in mind I am compelled to investigate all the other options available to the First Division clubs and as a result I lead a party of 9 clubs to a meeting with Neil Doncaster after yesterday's meeting. I am still hopeful that after the SPL clubs vote on 15th April that the SFL vote may be different but I have to be honest and say I cannot see that happening.

We hope that common sense will prevail but in the interim we cannot sit back and let other clubs determine our busines smodel and finances in a fashion which will be a huge disadvantage to the club. As a simple example we finished 4th last season with a distribution from SFL of £50k, and under the new model that figure would be £300k with 4 positions up for grabs for promotion. I hope that this short summary goes some way to communicating to our fans that we are doing all we can to protect the financial future of the Accies and at the same time ensure that full time football is sustainable in the second tier.

Les Gray, Chairman

Looks like Longmuir, in his apparent desperation to assist and make as much out of Rangers as possible, has completely lost the confidence of the First Division clubs. I think the First Division clubs are in the right here. They've been offered a reform that should enable them to compete more sustainably (cf the Dunfermline situation, and many of the other clubs effectively going part-time), yet they're getting mucked around by lower division clubs with zero ambition other than to make a few quid out of Rangers' temporary status.

[keithkeith]

Interesting statement by Hamilton Accies further to the SFL meeting last night.

http://acciesfc.co.uk/



Looks like Longmuir, in his apparent desperation to assist and make as much out of Rangers as possible, has completely lost the confidence of the First Division clubs. I think the First Division clubs are in the right here. They've been offered a reform that should enable them to compete more sustainably (cf the Dunfermline situation, and many of the other clubs effectively going part-time), yet they're getting mucked around by lower division clubs with zero ambition other than to make a few quid out of Rangers' temporary status.

It's hypocritical of Les Gray to say that the lower Leagues are acting out of self-interest and then post up that Accies are doing the same thing.

For the record, not all lower League Clubs are just out to make a few quid out of Rangers and it's definitely not correct to say they have zero ambition!

They have ambition to rise in the Leagues. They have ambition to follow Inverness and Ross County's example and they have a lot of ambition to do things with integrity and build a community-based Football Club.

I would agree, however, that David Longmuir has lost the confidence of many SFL Clubs after the Rangers fiasco last summer and the recent Colts debate.

The lower Leagues, like the SPL, need change, but it needs to be the right format.

- A robust set of governance around Articles of Association
- A fair voting system
- An equitable distribution model for finances
- A clearly defined set of rules for the pyramid system, with time to get ready for this to be implemented.
- A clear and consistent set of rules for administration and liquidation
- A clear and fair guideline on the criteria for SFA Quality Mark for Non-League Clubs wishing to enter the League and Cups.

[Eyrie]

Had an alarming though about the First Division clubs "breaking away". If nine of them form a new SPL2, then that provides a total of 21 clubs for the top two leagues of twelve and there are three vacancies. It's a no-brainer that Sevco Huns will apply for one of those spots and be accepted, which gets them up the leagues a year earlier than would be the case under either the existing set up or the proposed 12-12-18. I'm not sure why the Second and Third Division Clubs want a delay anyway. If it is because they'd prefer a 12-12-10-10 set up to remove the meaningless games that an 18 team league would cause at this time of year, then surely they can accommodate that for one year with a move to two lower leagues of ten for 2014/15 which gives candidate clubs from the Highland League, East of Scotland League or Juniors a chance to either apply or earn promotion.

[Spike Mandela]

As I have said many times before and nothing has persuaded me otherwise, reconstruction is being pursued vigourously to get Rangers up the leagues asap. this will happen by hook or by crook.

[StevieC]

As I have said many times before and nothing has persuaded me otherwise, reconstruction is being pursued vigourously to get Rangers up the leagues asap. this will happen by hook or by crook.

I still cant see how a 12-12-18 for next season will get Rangers up the League any quicker. :confused:

[Eyrie]

As I have said many times before and nothing has persuaded me otherwise, reconstruction is being pursued vigourously to get Rangers up the leagues asap. this will happen by hook or by crook.

But that wasn't going to happen under the initial proposals. In 13/14 they would either be in Division Two or the lower 18, in 14/15 they'd be in either Division One or the Lower 12/Playoff Section and only in 15/16 would they be in the top flight (assuming that they won promotion each year). The possible breakaway is the first opportunity that they have to skip a year and that will be the fault of the Second and Third Division Clubs rather than the SPL. Sevco Huns would play 13/14 in the Lower 12/Playoff Section and then be back in the top flight for 14/15.

[HibeeN]

I still cant see how a 12-12-18 for next season will get Rangers up the League any quicker. :confused:

I think the argument is that, if things stay the same, they'd have to win the 2nd and 1st divisions before getting back in the SPL (2 more years.)

Whereas if they change to 12-12-18, they will (possibly?) gain promotion into the second '12' and only have to win that league to get back into the SPL (1 more year.)

[Eyrie]

Only Sevco Huns have talked about the winners of the Third Division getting to jump straight into the second 12, so it's not going to happen. There would be another fans backlash as we saw last year when there was talk they might inherit the Huns RIP place in the SPL.

[Spike Mandela]

But that wasn't going to happen under the initial proposals. In 13/14 they would either be in Division Two or the lower 18, in 14/15 they'd be in either Division One or the Lower 12/Playoff Section and only in 15/16 would they be in the top flight (assuming that they won promotion each year). The possible breakaway is the first opportunity that they have to skip a year and that will be the fault of the Second and Third Division Clubs rather than the SPL. Sevco Huns would play 13/14 in the Lower 12/Playoff Section and then be back in the top flight for 14/15.

just wait and see. It is the authorities agenda and will happen imo.

[Andy74]

As I have said many times before and nothing has persuaded me otherwise, reconstruction is being pursued vigourously to get Rangers up the leagues asap. this will happen by hook or by crook.

Yet no plans discussed so far have done anything of the sort.

[J-C]

I still cant see how a 12-12-18 for next season will get Rangers up the League any quicker. :confused:


It won't that's why a 12-12-10-10 set up has been spoken about, this would allow the Huns to be in a smaller 3rd tier and a better chance of getting into the next group.

[offshorehibby]

Listening to sportsound at the moment and the pundits going hammer and tong we chick the prick still greeting about his beloved huns.

I hate to admit but i had to agree with Robbo's solution. 2 professorial leagues and the rest split in to regions.

[keithkeith]

I'm not sure why the Second and Third Division Clubs want a delay anyway. If it is because they'd prefer a 12-12-10-10 set up to remove the meaningless games that an 18 team league would cause at this time of year, then surely they can accommodate that for one year with a move to two lower leagues of ten for 2014/15 which gives candidate clubs from the Highland League, East of Scotland League or Juniors a chance to either apply or earn promotion.

The 2nd and 3rd Division Clubs are stalling as they don't want a pyramid structure thrust upon themselves next season when they have not had time to get ready for it. They need a season at least to get ready to fundraise to get as good a squad as possible to help them to avoid finishing in last place.

In addition, they need to know what the implications are for the promoted Clubs, should the worst happen and they drop out and be replaced by an East of Scotland League or a Highland League Club. The SFA Quality Standard criteria for acceptance into the League needs ironed out and clarified.

They don't want 10-10 structure in bottom two League, as opposed to the 18-team as the SFA & SFL Distributions are poor enough as it is without allowing two more teams in to further dilute what little wealth comes their way.

[Eyrie]

Fair enough, although it was the SFL who suggested two leagues of ten rather than one of eighteen. As regards needing a full season to properly set up a pyramid system, surely that can be overcome by simply delaying it for a year? No need to hold up the changes at the top for something which does not impact on the bottom clubs.

[alexedwards]

Interesting statement by Hamilton Accies further to the SFL meeting last night.

http://acciesfc.co.uk/



Looks like Longmuir, in his apparent desperation to assist and make as much out of Rangers as possible, has completely lost the confidence of the First Division clubs. I think the First Division clubs are in the right here. They've been offered a reform that should enable them to compete more sustainably (cf the Dunfermline situation, and many of the other clubs effectively going part-time), yet they're getting mucked around by lower division clubs with zero ambition other than to make a few quid out of Rangers' temporary status.


Wonder what this self-interested prat will have to say if Cowdenbeath leap-frog accies in the league? Maybe a little different then? :wink:

[keithkeith]

Wonder what this self-interested prat will have to say if Cowdenbeath leap-frog accies in the league? Maybe a little different then? :wink:

Indeed...!

:agree:

[keithkeith]

Fair enough, although it was the SFL who suggested two leagues of ten rather than one of eighteen. As regards needing a full season to properly set up a pyramid system, surely that can be overcome by simply delaying it for a year? No need to hold up the changes at the top for something which does not impact on the bottom clubs.


It was the SFL Board (and David Longmuir, CEO of the SFL) that suggested the two Leagues (to accommodate the Old Firm Colts teams and 'future proof Scottish football' - nonsense!). It wasn't the SFL Clubs. They listened to the recommendation and many disagreed.

Delaying the pyramid, yes that's fine, but the proposal is all or nothing at the moment. Take the 12-12-18 and the one governing body and the pyramid structure. If you want 12-12-18, then accept the pyramid as well...

Quite rightly, the 2nd and 3rd Division Clubs are saying "Errr..No thanks!"

The problem for them now is the likes of Les Gray and the SPL & SFL 1 Clubs coming out and saying "If you don't agree to it, then we will form a breakaway SPL and SPL2 and the latter will be by invitation only (will that include Rangers FC - yes, I think so?) and we will resign, form the new Leagues and the £2m a season SPL settlement that we pay to be distributed across the SFL Clubs will no longer exist!"

The SFL 2 & 3 Clubs would then be left out the loop of the Top 2 Leagues, and they would receive practically no distributions and they would have to fund the administration of the SFL at Hampden from their own funds.

Gun to head...

:rolleyes:

[Gatecrasher]

Some interesting info here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22001371


In the survey, 87 per cent of fans said they wanted to see a top division made up of more teams.

[Saorsa]

Some interesting info here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22001371and that 87% will be completely ignored

[grunt]

Thoughtful statement from St Mirren

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463

[jdships]

and that 87% will be completely ignored

:agree::thumbsup:


Question
What sort of organisation is Doncater and his cohorts running ?
Months ago we were told there was genreal agreement amongst the clubs , there have been goodness knows how many meetings to 'discuss the way forward ' and where are we ?
Exactly in the same position we were 12 months ago !
Why not keep it simple
42 clubs
Prem - 16 . One relegated one plays off with second in Champ.
Championship - 14. One promoted . One relegated one plays off with second in First for promotion
First - 12 . As Champ

As it stands the game is dying on its feet

[lucky]

Make simple, 18 team SPL and 24 second division. 3 up and 1 via a play off with 4th bottom SPL and 4th in Second division

[Keith_M]

Thoughtful statement from St Mirren

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463


:agree:


Pretty much sums it up for me

[GreenCastle]

Scottish Football needs radical change - otherwise it's going to keep getting worse and fans will stop going.

Supporters need to be the forefront of the change - they need to be brought back into the game - with affordable tickets /food at games.

League set up needs to be simple and competitive while also interesting - play each other x2 other - once home - once away - crowds will go up this way.

Get rid of the crazy spilt and change the 11 - 1 vote.

Add a 2nd division under the same body and make it a pyramid system to get in - teams can be relegated.

Stricter rules on club / stadium / infrastructure development / finances needed.

They can still keep the TV deals (when do these expire or did they renew recently - T.V income is needed but within reason) and strange kick off times if they have to but this will go some way to bringing the fans back and making it more interesting.

[PatHead]

Doncaster comes from the same school of thought as Charles Green. He believes if you shout loud enough and long enough it becomes a fact. That man should have been sacked for gross misconduct a year ago for his babbling about civil war etc and trying to coerce The Rangers into the SPL. What we want is a bigger league, financial fairplay/constraints on teams and an exciting affordable product on the park.
:agree::thumbsup:


Question
What sort of organisation is Doncater and his cohorts running ?
Months ago we were told there was genreal agreement amongst the clubs , there have been goodness knows how many meetings to 'discuss the way forward ' and where are we ?
Exactly in the same position we were 12 months ago !
Why not keep it simple
42 clubs
Prem - 16 . One relegated one plays off with second in Champ.
Championship - 14. One promoted . One relegated one plays off with second in First for promotion
First - 12 . As Champ

As it stands the game is dying on its feet

[The Harp Awakes]

Thoughtful statement from St Mirren

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463

Well done St Mirren for showing a bit of leadership:thumbsup:

Football must be the only business in the world that continually ignores the voice of their customers (the fans).

I cannot believe these so called custodians of Scottish football (Regan & Doncaster) are still in a job:confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Well done St. Mirren.
Personally didn't mind the new set up but without changes to the voting stricture and proper financial governance rules then it will remain an uninteresting product.
Financial fair play must be included to make a change worthwhile.

[StevieC]

Well done St Mirren for showing a bit of leadership:thumbsup:

100%.

Having the guts to come out and say what they think is something that will endear them to many football supporters, not just their own.

[GreenCastle]

Like last season and the sevco / newco issue - would be good if Hibs released a statement also to show their stance.

I know RP has mentioned KO times etc causing problems but do these guys back the new league that we as fans don't want?

Hopefully after the weekend something will be said :agree:

[Saorsa]

Thoughtful statement from St Mirren

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463:top marks


Well done St Mirren for showing a bit of leadership:thumbsup:

Football must be the only business in the world that continually ignores the voice of their customers (the fans).

I cannot believe these so called custodians of Scottish football (Regan & Doncaster) are still in a job:confused::agree:


100%.

Having the guts to come out and say what they think is something that will endear them to many football supporters, not just their own.:agree: Now that they have spoken hopefully other clubs who think likewise will also speak out and put an end tae this IMO ill thought out nonsense.

[pontius pilate]

You would line to think other clubs will speak out and listen to the fans like they did last season. The voting issue is a home 11-1 needed why not and this is just an idea.
Prem- 18 Teams at home & away once = 36 games
2x teams automatic relegation top 4x teams enter a semi-final final to decide championship winners and Europe.
3 rd bottom enter play off with third top of the championship/1st Division.
2nd tier 18 teams 2 automatic promotion 3rd top plays 3rd bottom for play off. With 3 x relegation places.
Every team not involved in the top 2 divisions are then in regional leagues competing for the ramsdens cup.
League cup becomes regional with mini leagues of 4 winners progress. Played in midweek.
Winter shut down for 3 weeks.
Voting then needs a 10/8 majority.
Just my thoughts of course.

[Eyrie]

To those suggesting a 16 team top flight, what about the reduction in home games?

And to those suggesting an 18 team league, do you honestly believe crowds will improve when half the league will have nothing to play for by March?

There are problems with any league structure.

[Lago]

You have to wonder if anything can be done to rescue Scottish football. Personally to me it looks to be in terminal decline with more and more fans looking south for competitive football.even on here how many times have seen someone posting about heading to a Newcastle, Man.U, Arsenal, Sunderland game etc.

[pontius pilate]

That's true but if teams are awar that by finishing in the bottom 3 relegation is a big threat and by being in the top 4 by seasons end you could be champions in a one off game I personally think we would see better football. Also to add to my previous post there should be a minimum of 3 underage homegrown players in each starting 11

[marinello59]

You would line to think other clubs will speak out and listen to the fans like they did last season. The voting issue is a home 11-1 needed why not and this is just an idea.
Prem- 18 Teams at home & away once = 36 games
2x teams automatic relegation top 4x teams enter a semi-final final to decide championship winners and Europe.
3 rd bottom enter play off with third top of the championship/1st Division.
2nd tier 18 teams 2 automatic promotion 3rd top plays 3rd bottom for play off. With 3 x relegation places.
Every team not involved in the top 2 divisions are then in regional leagues competing for the ramsdens cup.
League cup becomes regional with mini leagues of 4 winners progress. Played in midweek.
Winter shut down for 3 weeks.
Voting then needs a 10/8 majority.
Just my thoughts of course.

An 18 team league played home and away once will give 34 games, not 36.:wink:
A regional league cup with mini leagues. I take it you don't remember the demise of the old league cup which was a total snorefest deserted by the fans? All that the League Cup needs to revive its fortunes is the return of the European spot to the winners.

[GoldenEagle]

I hope the top six supported clubs now make contact with either the English or some transatlantic league very very soon.

Romantic notions of a 16 or 18 team league in Scotland, not an ounce of financial viability in either.

[Earl of Currie]

I think one of the key problems is that Scotland is trying to shoe-horn all 42 clubs into a league set up. Having done a quick search of countries in Europe with similar populations , nowhere else tries to accommodate 42 senior clubs in such a fashion. Using countries such as Denmark , Finland and Slovakia as examples , all have similar populations and have already adopted a pyramid structure. It tends to fall into a 12 team top league , 12 team second league then regional. The top league play each other 3 times each (33 games , apparently there is a formula for the final round of matches) and that seems to work. We could drop the league cup and use a group stage style Scottish Cup ( a la Champions League) , and based upon league positions , play the qualifying rounds home and away to create the extra fixtures for ' potential lost revenue '. But the eternal problem appears to be accommodating the lower league teams , case of the' tail wagging the dog ' .

[pontius pilate]

Granted 34 games but the you still have play offs etc for the top teams or lower teams. Granted if you are the other 11 teams you may have nothing to play for but anything is worth a try. With ref to the league cup well make it come with a European place surely the sfa have that power. You could of course make the league cup for the top 18 teams only

[truehibernian]

Anyone else listening to Sportsound - very good show tonight, but the sheer irony of a Dundee director telling the St Mirren owner that the game is 'sick' and needing urgent reconstruction is just priceless - Dundee, a team twice in administration, a team with no renovated stadium, a team who has had two money grabbing owners who threw silly cash at chasing the football dream - and they tell an owner of a club who have a new ground, own training centre, nil debt, young players coming through the ranks, and a recent cup win that they are 'holding the game back' !!!

The game needs one body, end of - rid of Regan, rid of Ogilvie, rid of Doncaster. It needs regionalised in the lower leagues and an SPL and Championship. Play off's bottom and top (two up two down with third bottom/third top also battling out a place), equal income distribution, minimum number of U21's in a starting eleven every league and cup game, one national FA Cup opened up to all clubs (junior clubs, part timers and full pro with no seedings, more rounds), winter shutdown, and a return to the reserve league. Scottish Government investment in national sports centres to supplement the academies and 'mop up' players who may fail to make the grade at SFA Academy level but retain an interest in football and good skill sets (these skills for example may be better placed in an alternative sport - athletics, boxing, rowing, rugby, etc).

As an alternative to the League Cup you could look at a return of say something like the Drybrough Cup (for those old enough), although invite 5 teams from SPL to play 5 teams in the Championship/League 1 in England (rather than keep it Scottish based) - on some kind of merit basis.

[truehibernian]

Oh and do away with agents - one player should have access to legal advice/specialist advice and not have multiple agents etc - that area of football needs addressed and seems to always be overlooked. The money that drips out the game to these guys/girls is frightening. Admittedly it's a pipe dream and will never happen though.

[alexedwards]

To those suggesting a 16 team top flight, what about the reduction in home games?

And to those suggesting an 18 team league, do you honestly believe crowds will improve when half the league will have nothing to play for by March?

There are problems with any league structure.

The SPL had a proposal in 2004 / 07 / 10 / 11 to deal with the match shortage in a 16-team league that was excitingand innovative and maintained matches at 36 per season. Also included was a North Euro Cup (not league) to cover the fact that larger Euro nations were leaving us behind and didn't really care about the smaller nations. In the long run this would have included more Euro matches for SPL clubs out-with the old firm.
The real problem here is no genuine experienced sports event organiser/promoter is allowed near the SPL because the SPL Chairmen and that major league of theirs are petrified they might have to divvy out more than 12 shares of TV income and they are also scared TV will walk - it's nonsense - and stinks of fear prior to investigation.
16 is the only option or many fans currently seeking reasons to leave will defo walk.

[Hibeesforever]

I have decided after tonight's Radio Scotland shambles that the SFA need to announce their own breakaway league. The way they would do this is immediately renounce the ability of the SPL clubs to play in Europe. The SFA should run Scottish Football not the Chairman of the SPL. I would also go a step further and have the government actively take a financial stake in the SFA. I don't see any difference here to what has already happened with the government effectively now owning the banking system. The Government should underwrite the SFA and force through proper change and re-organisation. A little bit of sponsorship to the league cup is not enough. Our national football team is a laughing stock and so are our league administrators. There is a national crisis in the game and I would canvass for the First Minister to take over the management of it. Emergency Scottish legislation is needed. The First Minister is, unfortunately, a Hearts man but hopefully that would only be a temporary measure until Mr Petrie stepped forward to sort things out.

[Earl of Currie]

There have been other suggestions to accommodate the shortfall of games if there was a 16 team top league. Apart from the North Euro / Atlantic league , there was talk of playing league fixtures overseas. If there were 16 teams and 30 league games , it would be possible for teams to go abroad during the winter shutdown and play a group of games in an overseas venue. For example , 4 teams playing each other in America, another 4 in Australia , 4 in Dubai the last 4 in Asia. All teams forgoing home advantage and paying an extra 3 games. it would also be a way of playing meaningful games over winter. Additionally , apartfrom appealing to the ex-pats , as these are meaningful games it would be more attractive to tv companies / sponsors who want to invest in the SPL and want coverage to a more global audience. The additional monies would cover costs with all profits being put into the end of season pot.

[Eyrie]

I can't see the Americans wanting to watch Hibs against Dundee Utd, or the Japanese turning out for Aberdeen playing Motherwell. The SPL barely registers outwith Scotland other than with ex-pats who are too few in number to make it worthwhile. It's all about the big leagues - England, Spain, Italy and Germany.
I’d be interested to learn more about this "North Euro Cup" though as I've never heard of it.

[ScottB]

To those suggesting a 16 team top flight, what about the reduction in home games?

And to those suggesting an 18 team league, do you honestly believe crowds will improve when half the league will have nothing to play for by March?

There are problems with any league structure.


True, but this 8 8 8 split would potentially leave us with a meaningless season from January onwards.

For me, an 18 team league offers the likes of us stability, even in a poor season we won't go down. In the current proposal a poor start to the season could see 'big' clubs facing relegation. Without sounding big headed on our part, the league structure needs to do as the Swiss suggested; produce a strong top league with the resources to produce talented youngsters, while the small teams 'know their place' as it where.

Personally I'd go 16 and 16, with the league cup starting with regional group stages to increase the number of games and derby matches for TV. Below that a national pyramid. 42 teams is far too many to spread our tiny amount of revenue across, let them find their level and sort themselves out.

[ScottB]

I have decided after tonight's Radio Scotland shambles that the SFA need to announce their own breakaway league. The way they would do this is immediately renounce the ability of the SPL clubs to play in Europe. The SFA should run Scottish Football not the Chairman of the SPL. I would also go a step further and have the government actively take a financial stake in the SFA. I don't see any difference here to what has already happened with the government effectively now owning the banking system. The Government should underwrite the SFA and force through proper change and re-organisation. A little bit of sponsorship to the league cup is not enough. Our national football team is a laughing stock and so are our league administrators. There is a national crisis in the game and I would canvass for the First Minister to take over the management of it. Emergency Scottish legislation is needed. The First Minister is, unfortunately, a Hearts man but hopefully that would only be a temporary measure until Mr Petrie stepped forward to sort things out.

Government involvement gets you punted out of FIFA, so I wouldn't hope for that I'm afraid...

[down-the-slope]

This could bite them on the bum....if they fall to 1st iv where there is no cash they could regret this...

One chance to get rid of on of the 3 admin bodies and get better cash distributions and the pyramid structure / play offs etc....while not perfect much better than the status quo.....

[Beefster]

I'm with St Mirren. One chance to get rid of the notorious 11-1 voting system that has held our game back and given the Bigots a stranglehold. Once that's been changed, anything else can be dealt with more easily in future.

[whiskyhibby]

Absolutely behind StMirren here, the 11-1 system means as soon as Sevco are back in the SPL then normal service will be resumed, so they are in effect voting for a transitory model

[Gatecrasher]

Change HAS to happen but not in the way the SPL/SFL and SFA are trying to. Its a major step in the wrong direction IMO. St Mirren seem to be one of the better run clubs in Scotland and while I'm sure Relegation won't help them (if it happens) I'm sure they will be equipt to handle it. The Mergers, The Voting system and general set up all need to change but the 12-12-18 is further away from what the most important people in Scottish Football want and it will do more harm than good.

[Saorsa]

This could bite them on the bum....if they fall to 1st iv where there is no cash they could regret this...

One chance to get rid of on of the 3 admin bodies and get better cash distributions and the pyramid structure / play offs etc....while not perfect much better than the status quo.....Disagree entirely, I'm totally with St.Mirrren on this. If it's not perfect then they can wait and get it right and fair tae everybody instead of rushing through this guff that has been tried and then rejected elsewhere. Most people learn from other peoples mistakes but obviously not these clowns.

The 11-1 also has tae go, absolutely ridiculous, WTF happened tae democracy. The people who agreed tae that system in the 1st place want ****in' stringing up, now is the chance tae get rid of it and it must be taken. The reason they want it kept is so when the stickies get back tae the top the status quo of the OF veto can continue. If it continues the only thing that will continue is the OF strangle hold that has suffocated Scottish fitba for decades.

The game in this country does need reform and it needs tae start at the top with the auld boys club, dungcaster, regan, oglive and longmuir can all GTF. AS far as I'm concerned they have nae interest in the long term good of Scottish fitba, only maintaining OF dominance in some guise or another. I sincerely hope others have the baws tae follow St. Mirren's lead. I can hardly believe when there is a chance tae get rid of that ludicrous voting system there are people running other clubs happy tae see it remain. Are they ****in' mental? Or are they still too craven and mealymouthed tae stand up tae the OF even when the perfect opportunity presents itself. Absolutely ****in' pathetic, too many OF erse lickers particularly that prick at Killie.

[MB62]

Agree with all the comments (except the O.P. of course) and I am 100% behind St. Mirren too (just as I was on St Patrick's day :wink: :greengrin ).

11-1 voting has to go and this new league set up is a joke that is far from being funny.

[Ross4356]

Delighted the Saints have done this. An 11-1 vote should never be passed again

[Cabbage East]

The sticking point is the voting structure so I'm behind St Mirren here. I am sick of Doncaster and Longmuir's blatant Old Firm bias. They need removed. They are part of the problem so it's ridiculous to suggest that they are the right men to come up with a strategy to improve our game.

[down-the-slope]

We will have to agree to differ then. The pragmatists (chairmen) agree that getting most of it suiting most is the best that can be achieved - and of course a bit of brinkmanship to try and squeeze some further changes is/ should be part of the 'game'

The idea muted on this thread that we can get everything to suit everyone is frankly wishful thinking.

By the time another opportunity comes by then there will be several less clubs around to consider if the financial situations of some are as described.

Anyway we would have be in top 8 this season :wink:

[J-C]

We will have to agree to differ then. The pragmatists (chairmen) agree that getting most of it suiting most is the best that can be achieved - and of course a bit of brinkmanship to try and squeeze some further changes is/ should be part of the 'game'

The idea muted on this thread that we can get everything to suit everyone is frankly wishful thinking.

By the time another opportunity comes by then there will be several less clubs around to consider if the financial situations of some are as described.

Anyway we would have be in top 8 this season :wink:


Yes most chairmen thought the 11-1 voting system was a good idea and that going with Setenta for more money was a good idea.

Chairmen will vote depending on the greed they show, St Mirren have turned around and said, we don't care too much about the cash, we want a fair system for all and for the fans. I like what the St Mirren chairman said, " an 8-8-8- split after 22 games, with all points prior wiped, is no good for the fans, particularly the season ticket holders. Why would you buy a season ticket, when a 3rd of the season will be an unknown quantity. "

[matty_f]

Definitely with st Mirren here. The 11-1 vote should have been done away with at the earliest opportunity.

[The Harp Awakes]

Well done St Mirren for showing a bit of leadership:thumbsup:

Football must be the only business in the world that continually ignores the voice of their customers (the fans).

I cannot believe these so called custodians of Scottish football (Regan & Doncaster) are still in a job:confused:

[down-the-slope]

Yes most chairmen thought the 11-1 voting system was a good idea and that going with Setenta for more money was a good idea.

Chairmen will vote depending on the greed they show, St Mirren have turned around and said, we don't care too much about the cash, we want a fair system for all and for the fans. I like what the St Mirren chairman said, " an 8-8-8- split after 22 games, with all points prior wiped, is no good for the fans, particularly the season ticket holders. Why would you buy a season ticket, when a 3rd of the season will be an unknown quantity. "

I don't think chairmen thought 11v1 was good - it was part of a package of other stuff that on balance at the time they wanted. St Mirren wanted the Setanta Cash and voted for it - we didn't.

Points would only be wiped in middle 'mini league' as otherwise 1st div teams would have advantage. Currently we have an unknown end of season quantity thats rubbish - willing to try one that has excitement of play off and games that mean something (even if thats fighting for survival)

Many of us buy CTU when it may have no value at all - let alone who we might play

[Glesgahibby]

Every time a question is asked about the 11-1 system there is never a straightforward answer:confused:
And just like the newhun saga and the cheating yam saga the press boys roll over after being fed nonsense.
i don't know st mirrens real motives but nothing will improve our game until a basic fair and democratic structure is in place.

[hibsmad]

Totally behind St Mirren.

For me the league reconstruction is not the main issue. It's the 11-1 vote.

12-12-18 is better than what we currently have and although I don't think it is the answer, I think it would be a step in the right direction. I believe however that further reconstruction would be needed in the future. With that in mind, I don't see 12-12-18 as being any kind of disaster.

What would be a disaster is if we kept the 11-1 voting structure. I mean seriously, what possible reason can the clubs (other than Celtic) have for not wanting to get rid of it!? There would be no excuse and I would be ****ing raging if it was allowed to remain!

[J-C]

I don't think chairmen thought 11v1 was good - it was part of a package of other stuff that on balance at the time they wanted. St Mirren wanted the Setanta Cash and voted for it - we didn't.

Points would only be wiped in middle 'mini league' as otherwise 1st div teams would have advantage. Currently we have an unknown end of season quantity thats rubbish - willing to try one that has excitement of play off and games that mean something (even if thats fighting for survival)

Many of us buy CTU when it may have no value at all - let alone who we might play


Would you want to buy a season ticket, finish 8th and only say 5 pts behind 4th, then all points wiped out but the points gained added to the ones lost would've seen you get 4th spot and Europe?? I know we have that scenario at the moment with the split, but the split is only for last 5 games and usually has little influence on Eruopean places.
We need a play off put in place, that's pretty obvious but we also need a better league construction and until one is proposed, we need to stay with the one in place. I'm all for 14-14-14 with play off's up and down, also relegation from 3rd tier and promotion from regional leagues.

[kentao]

Well done to St Mirren for coming out and saying what alot of supporters are thinking. The sticking point is the 11-1 voting system the good of the game will never get changed once the OF are back together. This needs to be changed first. For the future of the game we need a bigger league(18-20) teams with more evenly distributed money. This wont have an immediate impact but over the space of 10 years it will allow teams to kick on.

All the top leagues in the world have 18-20 team setups, EPl, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue 1, Dutch Eredivisie and more. So why does the SPL want to go with some new radical system which nobody wants.

[GlenrothesHibee]

Easily my second favorite team! :thumbsup:

[Mikey]

11-1 has to go while we have the chance.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Why the ****** has the voting system not been changed yet and doesn't even seem to be part of this proposed model??? My God, Hibs and everyone else deserve everything comming to them if they let this chance pass.
Well done St.Mirren and even more so Stewart Gilmour, a true hero for Buddies and all fans alike.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Does anyone know why Hibs appear to be in favour of retaining the 11-1? I listened to Radio Scotland last night and the boy fro mDundee suggested a lot of clubs want to keep it (not just Rangers and Celtic).

It was also suggested that St Mirren are voting against the reconstruction after discussions with Cha Green. No reconstruction now would put SPL2 back on the table and that's likely to be on an invite basis...

[down-the-slope]

Would you want to buy a season ticket, finish 8th and only say 5 pts behind 4th, then all points wiped out but the points gained added to the ones lost would've seen you get 4th spot and Europe?? I know we have that scenario at the moment with the split, but the split is only for last 5 games and usually has little influence on Eruopean places.
We need a play off put in place, that's pretty obvious but we also need a better league construction and until one is proposed, we need to stay with the one in place. I'm all for 14-14-14 with play off's up and down, also relegation from 3rd tier and promotion from regional leagues.

Is proposal perfect - absolutely not. Is it better than what we have...yes I think so. Biggest issue we have is that the 'product' is a dud and with no main sponsor for next season there is real danger that the finances in the game will go pop and even those who have been fairly prudent based on projected income will see a need to cost cut dramatically. Selling one bigger package is far more attractive to sponsor and TV. The reason for pressing for changes this season and not a years delay is it would leave a season trying to 'sell' a dud product that was in its death knell and changing the year after...not a great negotiating position

14 would never get agreed as its loses matches and no club will vote for less matches / less income.

Just to be clear 11v1 needs changing (in fact I have facilitated group where this has been raised with management / board amng other wider issues) however there are such a complex range of things needing fixed that to say if you cant change one then you won't change any could end up 'cutting off the nose to spite the face'

Here's another chairman's view

"Everyone has to compromise to come up with a system that keeps 42 clubs happy," Gardiner told BBC Scotland.
"I'm afraid it's utopian and doesn't relate to real life to think that some clubs can cherry-pick what they want."
He also told BBC Scotland's Sportsound programme, that voting against the proposal would mean retaining the present situation.
"A vote against isn't just a vote against 12-12, it's a vote to keep the status quo, and the boot will be kept on the neck of Scottish football.
"Because there's no more compromises; everyone's given in something, so, for some clubs to say 'we'd like also that and we'd like also that', that's a red line for us.

"I think it's self-interest."
Gardiner also insisted that he was prepared to support keeping the 11-1 voting system in the SPL - one of Gilmour's main objections to the reform plan.

"It's easy to make statements where you say 'we shouldn't do this and we shouldn't do this'," he said.
"There's been an enormous amount of compromise from clubs all over the country.
"I put my hand up against in January, but there are very good arguments for keeping it when you get into the detail.
"The 11-1 is there for protected matters, and that means protecting everyone, not jsut one or two clubs."
And the Dundee chief also maintained that change had to happen if Scottish football was to survive.
"We have a sick patient here," he said.
"Crowds are going down, sponsorship is going down, TV audiences are disastrous and the First Division is effectively a basket case.
"Our game is in dire need of change.
However, Gardner did admit that the football bodies had not presented the new proposal to the public well.
"I believe, if things are explained properly about where we're at, then fans can realise this is the situation we're in," he said.
"PR-wise, could things be handled better? Absolutely.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Maybe the need an 11-1 vote to change it. Sure I read that the sheep were against it changing.

[--------]

Frankly I have never been so utterly disenchanted by Scottish football as I am right now.

IMO the game needs a complete re-vamp financially and organisationally. We're way behind the rest of Europe tactically and in the development of young players.

Too many clubs playing in sub-standard stadiums; no leadership at association, league or club level; no money and no apparent effort being made to find new money; games evry week I wouldn't cross the road to watch for nothing.

I agree - the voting system HAS to be made fairer and more democratic. If 11-1 or anything similar is retained, we'll just see the renewed dominance of the Ugly Sisters as soon as Rangers get back to the top league. All credit to the Buddies for standing up and saying what they have - if we end up essentially back as we were after this "reconstruction" I doubt I'll be watching Scottish football anywhere next season.

[Seveno]

Well done St Mirren. The voting system has to be the top priority so that the Ugly Sisters never have a stranglehold on scottish football again.

I'm fed up hearing about the need to sell the product to TV companies. It is time to put the fans first, and by that I mean the fans that pay their money and turn up to watch their team. The constant changing of k.o. times has to stop or more and more fans will be turned away. Empty grounds do not make for a very appealing TV product.

[Malthibby]

All hail the Buddies. Think it's very funny that the 11 - 1 disgrace of a system can be used to knack the suits who want to keep it for Rangers return.
who wants a 12 team SPL? Not the fans, who have again been totally ignored.
GG

[down-the-slope]

Maybe the need an 11-1 vote to change it. Sure I read that the sheep were against it changing.

:agree: ironically 11v1 vote needed to change 11v1 :rolleyes:

[Saorsa]

Does anyone know why Hibs appear to be in favour of retaining the 11-1? I listened to Radio Scotland last night and the boy fro mDundee suggested a lot of clubs want to keep it (not just Rangers and Celtic).

It was also suggested that St Mirren are voting against the reconstruction after discussions with Cha Green. No reconstruction now would put SPL2 back on the table and that's likely to be on an invite basis...If there is any moves made tae promote that team above where they should be I'm afraid I'll be back tae the position I took when they were trying tae get the stickies back in the SPL or 1st division, ta ta :bye: Scottish fitba The current proposals dae absolutely nothing tae enhance my view of Scottish fitba, exactly the opposite in fact. I'm mair pissed off now with the people that run fitba in this country than I have ever been and TBH much mair of this pish and I'll be another added tae the long list of people who have given up and found something better tae dae with their time and money.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Absolutely behind St Mirren on this one. 11-1 voting has been killing our game for years and this 12/12/18 is absolute lunacy.

Time for clubs to cut there cloth and the game to restructure properly.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Well done St Mirren. The voting system has to be the top priority so that the Ugly Sisters never have a stranglehold on scottish football again.

I'm fed up hearing about the need to sell the product to TV companies. It is time to put the fans first, and by that I mean the fans that pay their money and turn up to watch their team. The constant changing of k.o. times has to stop or more and more fans will be turned away. Empty grounds do not make for a very appealing TV product.

Agreed, games should be at 3pm with no live TV coverage. Get the fans back through the turnstiles.

[Dashing Bob S]

Disagree entirely, I'm totally with St.Mirrren on this. If it's not perfect then they can wait and get it right and fair tae everybody instead of rushing through this guff that has been tried and then rejected elsewhere. Most people learn from other peoples mistakes but obviously not these clowns.

The 11-1 also has tae go, absolutely ridiculous, WTF happened tae democracy. The people who agreed tae that system in the 1st place want ****in' stringing up, now is the chance tae get rid of it and it must be taken. The reason they want it kept is so when the stickies get back tae the top the status quo of the OF veto can continue. If it continues the only thing that will continue is the OF strangle hold that has suffocated Scottish fitba for decades.

The game in this country does need reform and it needs tae start at the top with the auld boys club, dungcaster, regan, oglive and longmuir can all GTF. AS far as I'm concerned they have nae interest in the long term good of Scottish fitba, only maintaining OF dominance in some guise or another. I sincerely hope others have the baws tae follow St. Mirren's lead. I can hardly believe when there is a chance tae get rid of that ludicrous voting system there are people running other clubs happy tae see it remain. Are they ****in' mental? Or are they still too craven and mealymouthed tae stand up tae the OF even when the perfect opportunity presents itself. Absolutely ****in' pathetic, too many OF erse lickers particularly that prick at Killie.

Exactly. They were drawing these moronic scribblings on the back of their fag packets as damage limitation, as soon as they learned that they wouldn't be able to save the Hun by their other underhand nefarious means. I applaud St Mirren in throwing this bull**** out.

[down-the-slope]

If there is any moves made tae promote that team above where they should be I'm afraid I'll be back tae the position I took when they were trying tae get the stickies back in the SPL or 1st division, ta ta :bye: Scottish fitba The current proposals dae absolutely nothing tae enhance my view of Scottish fitba, exactly the opposite in fact. I'm mair pissed off now with the people that run fitba in this country than I have ever been and TBH much mair of this pish and I'll be another added tae the long list of people who have given up and found something better tae dae with their time and money.

Dan this is one of the reasons I am questioning the St Mirren are the good guys doing it out of love of the game / not for personal gain line most are taking....

They along with Killie would rather have the chance of games sooner with The Huns rather than support filtering money down the divisions to grow the wider clubs that could save the game here both financially and also in stagnating fan experience wise...unfortunately 'better the devil you know' seems to be the mantra of some....

[Saorsa]

Dan this is one of the reasons I am questioning the St Mirren are the good guys doing it out of love of the game / not for personal gain line most are taking....

They along with Killie would rather have the chance of games sooner with The Huns rather than support filtering money down the divisions to grow the wider clubs that could save the game here both financially and also in stagnating fan experience wise...unfortunately 'better the devil you know' seems to be the mantra of some....St Mirren may have their motives, I'm questioning why any club bar the two it has always benefitted are in favour of retaining a voting system that allows 2 teams (and we ken which 2) tae veto anything they dinnae like. That system has only ever served 2 teams and will continue in the same vein as soon as the stickies reach the top division however quickly they manage tae achieve or contrive that. They can tinker with the league set up all they want, it'll change nothing and improve nothing. As long as every other club sits back and allows the OF strangle hold tae continue and the game tae be run for their benefit, the game in this country will continue in steady decline.

Whatever the league set up this voting system must be scrapped and a fair one put in place.

Maybe at your next LWT meeting you could ask Petrie (or whoever happens tae be there representing Hibs) what benefit Hibs gain from the current system and why it should be retained.

[down-the-slope]

St Mirren may have their motives, I'm questioning why any club bar the two it has always benefitted are in favour of retaining a voting system that allows 2 teams (and we ken which 2) tae veto anything they dinnae like. That system has only ever served 2 teams and will continue in the same vein as soon as the stickies reach the top division however quickly they manage tae achieve or contrive that. They can tinker with the league set up all they want, it'll change nothing and improve nothing. As long as every other club sits back and allows the OF strangle hold tae continue and the game tae be run for their benefit, the game in this country will continue in steady decline.

Whatever the league set up this voting system must be scrapped and a fair one put in place.

Maybe at your next LWT meeting you could ask Petrie (or whoever happens tae be there representing Hibs) what benefit Hibs gain from the current system and why it should be retained.

That question has been asked very directly to Chairman back when situation with them was very live - dealing with them / chaos they had created was the priority then. The expectation was that 11v1 would be back on the table for discussion as soon as the dust settled next SPL gathering...then moves for league reconstruction became topic / priority. I don't think the desire to see it changed will have altered...but in negotiating for wider change it may not be seen as top priority (financial stability will be?) if it is stumbling block to others agreeing change...of course we will keep asking the questions :agree:

What I would say is that some of what is / has been said in public by some clubs over past year is different in public to that said / done in private. (while i'm sure most realise this - there a good number who just take the PR spin at face value)

[greenginger]

Well done St Mirren, I think the 12. 12. 18 set up was full of anomalies.

The split after 22 games, that is just past the halfway point of the season.

All the bottom four starting on Zero points. Imagine a team getting, say 25 points from the first 22 games but ends up in the bottom four. The team bottom of the league with only, say 5 points starts again level with the team which was 20 points ahead of them.
After the next middle 8 fixtures, the team that was bottom stays up but the team which finished the first section streets ahead is relegated. :confused:

I think we had better think it out again !

[ballengeich]

Can anyone explain why the proposals are being presented as a once in a lifetime opportunity? If the change doesn't go through this summer I can't see any reason not to come back with something slightly different starting the season after next.

[Saorsa]

Well done St Mirren, I think the 12. 12. 18 set up was full of anomalies.

The split after 22 games, that is just past the halfway point of the season.

All the bottom four starting on Zero points. Imagine a team getting, say 25 points from the first 22 games but ends up in the bottom four. The team bottom of the league with only, say 5 points starts again level with the team which was 20 points ahead of them.
After the next middle 8 fixtures, the team that was bottom stays up but the team which finished the first section streets ahead is relegated. :confused:

I think we had better think it out again !In another scenario if the 4 teams that finish bottom of the top 12 1st section win the 2nd part (middlie 8) that means the next season will see the same 12 teams start in the top division again with naebody being promoted or relegated. In theory that could happen for years (and it's a nonsense if it happens once) with nae new teams getting in tae the top division. Ridiculous IMO tae even be considering a set up which could see nae promotion or relegation from or tae the top division.

[Gatecrasher]

All the chairman criticising the buddies when the fans agree with them, says it all really. The folk running (or ruining) our game are so out of touch.

[Beefster]

Can anyone explain why the proposals are being presented as a once in a lifetime opportunity? If the change doesn't go through this summer I can't see any reason not to come back with something slightly different starting the season after next.

It's scaremongering on the same sort of scale as "the game will die if Sevco aren't allowed back in the SPL immediately". It's what the SPL and the majority of the clubs do.

[marinello59]

All the chairman criticising the buddies when the fans agree with them, says it all really. The folk running (or ruining) our game are so out of touch.

They listened to the fans who said they would go along to games if Sevco were booted in to the bottom division. Turned out most of it was just hot air.
St Mirren are right though.

[Beefster]

They listened to the fans who said they would go along to games if Sevco were booted in to the bottom division. Turned out most of it was just hot air.
St Mirren are right though.

I reckon most of the protests last year were from folk saying that they wouldn't be back if Sevco were in the SPL straight away. I think SPL chairmen stopped them entering the SPL purely to stop a crash in attendances.

[StevieC]

:agree: ironically 11v1 vote needed to change 11v1 :rolleyes:

Are you sure?

I thought that the 11-1 related to league reconstruction and financial changes? :dunno:

It might only need an 8-3 vote to change the voting structure.

[marinello59]

I reckon most of the protests last year were from folk saying that they wouldn't be back if Sevco were in the SPL straight away. I think SPL chairmen stopped them entering the SPL purely to stop a crash in attendances.
Agreed, partly. There were plenty saying they would back the club for doing the right thing by going to more games though. That simply didn't happen.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

if I could give a flying f*** I would. but, I don't!

[down-the-slope]

Are you sure?

I thought that the 11-1 related to league reconstruction and financial changes? :dunno:

It might only need an 8-3 vote to change the voting structure.

Nope changing articles are a qualified resolution so need the full monty


(d) any alteration, variation or modification of these Articles or Section C
of the Rules and/or any other part of the Rules the alteration, variation
or modification of which would have the effect of altering, varying or
modifying a provision or provisions in Section C of the Rules and/or of
these Articles and/or or the adoption of a new, substitute or different
Section C of the Rules and/or of these Articles;

[Eyrie]

As someone who recognises that 12-12-18 is a far superior proposal to the current 12-10-10-10 or the possible 14/16/18 team leagues suggested, I cannot understand why any club would want to keep the 11-1 voting structure for any vote.

[SneakersO'Toole]

It would appear that St.Mirren are the only team with some backbone to stand up for what is right and eradicate one of the principle rules that has killed the Scottish game.

If other clubs are willing to keep this lunacy in return for some poxy reconstruction that the paying customers dont want anyway then I ask myself what is the point?!

The majority of non old firm chairman are as bad as square heid Doncaster, Regan the Craven and the other cronies if they think this is okay. Its is essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul - it does not move us forward and again panders to the interests of the 2 most vile and horrible institutions in this country. Sickening!!! Both of which want to leave the Scottish game within 5 years anyway.

Only in Scotland this would happen. It is beyond embarrassing and tiresome beyond belief.

[Danderhall Hibs]

It would appear that St.Mirren are the only team with some backbone to stand up for what is right and eradicate one of the principle rules that has killed the Scottish game.

.

On the face of it but I do wonder what their real motive is.

[hibsbollah]

Disagree entirely, I'm totally with St.Mirrren on this. If it's not perfect then they can wait and get it right and fair tae everybody instead of rushing through this guff that has been tried and then rejected elsewhere. Most people learn from other peoples mistakes but obviously not these clowns.

The 11-1 also has tae go, absolutely ridiculous, WTF happened tae democracy. The people who agreed tae that system in the 1st place want ****in' stringing up, now is the chance tae get rid of it and it must be taken. The reason they want it kept is so when the stickies get back tae the top the status quo of the OF veto can continue. If it continues the only thing that will continue is the OF strangle hold that has suffocated Scottish fitba for decades.

The game in this country does need reform and it needs tae start at the top with the auld boys club, dungcaster, regan, oglive and longmuir can all GTF. AS far as I'm concerned they have nae interest in the long term good of Scottish fitba, only maintaining OF dominance in some guise or another. I sincerely hope others have the baws tae follow St. Mirren's lead. I can hardly believe when there is a chance tae get rid of that ludicrous voting system there are people running other clubs happy tae see it remain. Are they ****in' mental? Or are they still too craven and mealymouthed tae stand up tae the OF even when the perfect opportunity presents itself. Absolutely ****in' pathetic, too many OF erse lickers particularly that prick at Killie.

Excellent post :agree:

[Saorsa]

That question has been asked very directly to Chairman back when situation with them was very live - dealing with them / chaos they had created was the priority then. The expectation was that 11v1 would be back on the table for discussion as soon as the dust settled next SPL gathering...then moves for league reconstruction became topic / priority. I don't think the desire to see it changed will have altered...but in negotiating for wider change it may not be seen as top priority (financial stability will be?) if it is stumbling block to others agreeing change...of course we will keep asking the questions :agree:

What I would say is that some of what is / has been said in public by some clubs over past year is different in public to that said / done in private. (while i'm sure most realise this - there a good number who just take the PR spin at face value)You'll no be surprised tae learn that I disagree with that being the priority. The priority is tae get rid of rules and a setup that favours just two teams with the rest fighting for the scraps from the table. That is what has been killing and what will continue tae kill the game in this country. A fair setup for everybody is what is needed, tinkering with the system but leaving in place such rules will achieve the square root of **** all and just allow the OF tae resume their stranglehold on the game in a few seasons. Now is the one chance for everybody tae act together and get rid of this pish. Leaving it in place will only serve tae perpetuate the demise of the game in Scotland.

The SPL,and it's rules were designed for one thing and one thing only, tae ensure the OF would completely dominate at the expense of all others. 11 - 1 voting system means TWO teams can veto ten, 1st TWO places scoop up a third of the money with a big drop tae the next place. Everything is about TWO teams. The OF may continue tae dominate because of the number of bigots and glory hunters in this country but there's nae need for everybody else tae keep bending over for them. Since the SPL only two teams have won the league and only once have they been split. They may have dominated tae an extent before that but it's almost 100% for 1st and 2nd now, at least before other teams had a chance of 1st or at least 2nd.

When will the people running other clubs realise that the OF need Scottish fitba more than it needs them. They have naewhere else tae go. Everybody else can form a league without them, can the two of them dae the same on their own? It's time for everybody else tae stand together, forget their own self interest for a minute for the good of the game (before it dies on its erse) and start dictating some of the terms tae the OF instead of letting them have it all their own way.

[Gatecrasher]

They listened to the fans who said they would go along to games if Sevco were booted in to the bottom division. Turned out most of it was just hot air.
St Mirren are right though.

Really? I haven't missed a home game this season. That wouldn't have been the case is Sevco were granted access to anything other than Division 3

[18Craig75]

Well done St Mirren. Finally a club has echoed what the fans have been saying all season. Doncaster and Reagan are trying to bully and scaremonger clubs into accepting their ridiculous proposals. Both have completely ignored THEIR survey of fans opinions. Time for them both to step down. I'd like Hibs to release a similar statement. Time to give the game back to the fans, because at the minute we're coming last.

[GreenCastle]

Disagree entirely, I'm totally with St.Mirrren on this. If it's not perfect then they can wait and get it right and fair tae everybody instead of rushing through this guff that has been tried and then rejected elsewhere. Most people learn from other peoples mistakes but obviously not these clowns.

The 11-1 also has tae go, absolutely ridiculous, WTF happened tae democracy. The people who agreed tae that system in the 1st place want ****in' stringing up, now is the chance tae get rid of it and it must be taken. The reason they want it kept is so when the stickies get back tae the top the status quo of the OF veto can continue. If it continues the only thing that will continue is the OF strangle hold that has suffocated Scottish fitba for decades.

The game in this country does need reform and it needs tae start at the top with the auld boys club, dungcaster, regan, oglive and longmuir can all GTF. AS far as I'm concerned they have nae interest in the long term good of Scottish fitba, only maintaining OF dominance in some guise or another. I sincerely hope others have the baws tae follow St. Mirren's lead. I can hardly believe when there is a chance tae get rid of that ludicrous voting system there are people running other clubs happy tae see it remain. Are they ****in' mental? Or are they still too craven and mealymouthed tae stand up tae the OF even when the perfect opportunity presents itself. Absolutely ****in' pathetic, too many OF erse lickers particularly that prick at Killie.

Excellent post :top marks

This 11v1 vote change is crucial - the new league proposals are ludicrous.

It's all about money and greed and nothing to do with the paying customer - that has to change :agree:

[jgl07]

This could bite them on the bum....if they fall to 1st iv where there is no cash they could regret this...

One chance to get rid of on of the 3 admin bodies and get better cash distributions and the pyramid structure / play offs etc....while not perfect much better than the status quo.....

Where did you get the notion that the proposals would get rid of three admin bodies.

It would merge the SPL with the SFL and thus get rid of one.

The SFA would be unaffected.

[DH1875]

Really? I haven't missed a home game this season. That wouldn't have been the case is Sevco were granted access to anything other than Division 3

Exactly. Was never the case there would be more fans. The clubs had to keep the punters who were already going. We have 8k season ticket holders. If they'd let newco in it could have been as low as 2k or 3k.

[Phil MaGlass]

If there is any moves made tae promote that team above where they should be I'm afraid I'll be back tae the position I took when they were trying tae get the stickies back in the SPL or 1st division, ta ta :bye: Scottish fitba The current proposals dae absolutely nothing tae enhance my view of Scottish fitba, exactly the opposite in fact. I'm mair pissed off now with the people that run fitba in this country than I have ever been and TBH much mair of this pish and I'll be another added tae the long list of people who have given up and found something better tae dae with their time and money.

With you and Doddie on this one,

absolutely pissed off at the state of our game, the muppets that are running it and the complete idiots that wish to keep the 11-1 voting system why the **** do they think were in this mess in the first place, partly because of the ****ing 11-1 system and OF dominance, I´m not saying they should´nt earn more money than the rest of us but the money should be more evenly spread out.
Well done St.Mirren.
Oh aye, theres only so much a football fan will take before they walk, and going with what alot of fans are saying up and doon the country that point has almost been reached, so I say to the SPL and the SFA "go ahead erses MAKE MY DAY"

[DH1875]

Thing I don't get about the 11-1 vote is that when they had a chance to change it last time Aberdeen voted with Celtic to keep it.

[Eyrie]

You'll no be surprised tae learn that I disagree with that being the priority. The priority is tae get rid of rules and a setup that favours just two teams with the rest fighting for the scraps from the table. That is what has been killing and what will continue tae kill the game in this country. A fair setup for everybody is what is needed, tinkering with the system but leaving in place such rules will achieve the square root of **** all and just allow the OF tae resume their stranglehold on the game in a few seasons. Now is the one chance for everybody tae act together and get rid of this pish. Leaving it in place will only serve tae perpetuate the demise of the game in Scotland.

The SPL,and it's rules were designed for one thing and one thing only, tae ensure the OF would completely dominate at the expense of all others. 11 - 1 voting system means TWO teams can veto ten, 1st TWO places scoop up a third of the money with a big drop tae the next place. Everything is about TWO teams. The OF may continue tae dominate because of the number of bigots and glory hunters in this country but there's nae need for everybody else tae keep bending over for them. Since the SPL only two teams have won the league and only once have they been split. They may have dominated tae an extent before that but it's almost 100% for 1st and 2nd now, at least before other teams had a chance of 1st or at least 2nd.

When will the people running other clubs realise that the OF need Scottish fitba more than it needs them. They have naewhere else tae go. Everybody else can form a league without them, can the two of them dae the same on their own? It's time for everybody else tae stand together, forget their own self interest for a minute for the good of the game (before it dies on its erse) and start dictating some of the terms tae the OF instead of letting them have it all their own way.

Excellent post. It's time the Ugly Sisters were put in their place.

[down-the-slope]

Where did you get the notion that the proposals would get rid of three admin bodies.

It would merge the SPL with the SFL and thus get rid of one.

The SFA would be unaffected.

missing 'e' getting rid of one of the the three :greengrin

[down-the-slope]

Excellent post. It's time the Ugly Sisters were put in their place.

:rolleyes: everyone seems to be missing the point...there is only 1 of the OF in SPL...so when its comes to changing articles it would pass if 11 voted for it ....the fact that its not being tested is because the won't

[Saorsa]

:rolleyes: everyone seems to be missing the point...there is only 1 of the OF in SPL...so when its comes to changing articles it would pass if 11 voted for it ....the fact that its not being tested is because the won'tI think it is you who is missing the point, we ken there is only one OF team in the league so why is anybody outwith that OF team wanting tae keep it when it benefits the OF? That's the question people are looking for answers tae. They should be voting tae get rid of it for the good of the game before there become two OF teams in the league again and the chance is lost and we continue down the road that has been killing Scottish fitba for decades. These changes as they are will dae **** all tae improve the game. Tinkering with the league setup will solve **** all when it is pandering tae the OF (and leaving this rule in place is exactly that) that has been and will continue tae kill the game, this is nothing mair than shuffling the deckchairs on the Titanic. I'd be interested tae ken why anybody else is wanting tae keep it when getting rid of it and introducing a fair system should be and is the single most important issue and the one thing that will really improve the game for ALL. What are their motives? It certainly has **** all tae dae with benefiting the whole of Scottish fitba, that's for sure.

Too many myopic, self interested, mealymouthed ***** bags and OF stooges running other clubs and the game in this country it would seem, who are prepared tae let this chance tae save the game be flushed doon the pan.

[marinello59]

Really? I haven't missed a home game this season. That wouldn't have been the case is Sevco were granted access to anything other than Division 3

If only there had been many more like you.

[down-the-slope]

I think it is you who is missing the point, we ken there is only one OF team in the league so why is anybody outwith that OF team wanting tae keep it when it benefits the OF? That's the question people are looking for answers tae. They should be voting tae get rid of it for the good of the game before there become two OF teams in the league again and the chance is lost and we continue down the road that has been killing Scottish fitba for decades. These changes as they are will dae **** all tae improve the game. Tinkering with the league setup will solve **** all when it is pandering tae the OF (and leaving this rule in place is exactly that) that has been and will continue tae kill the game, this is nothing mair than shuffling the deckchairs on the Titanic. I'd be interested tae ken why anybody else is wanting tae keep it when getting rid of it and introducing a fair system should be and is the single most important issue and the one thing that will really improve the game for ALL. What are their motives? It certainly has **** all tae dae with benefiting the whole of Scottish fitba, that's for sure.

Too many myopic, self interested, mealymouthed ***** bags and OF stooges running other clubs and the game in this country it would seem, who are prepared tae let this chance tae save the game be flushed doon the pan.

I think you have finally got the point...there are clubs who would not vote for this change in voting (Non OF) so it would not pass....and therefore putting it in package would prevent any change...

Who and Why are the real questions

[Saorsa]

I think you have finally got the point...there are clubs who would not vote for this change in voting (Non OF) so it would not pass....and therefore putting it in package would prevent any change...

Who and Why are the real questionsAnd my point is there is nae point in any other change when the fundamental issue is the way game being run so why ****in' bother with any other changes , ****in' erseholes. Change is needed (starting at the top IMO) for the good of the game but this ***** isnae it, a complete and utter waste of time and like I said they're doing nothing mair than shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. That apart it's a ***** idea of a league anyway, ****in' nonsense, worse than what's there now IMO and that's saying something. Two decades of what we've just had will be back in a few seasons when the stickies return, THAT mair the anything else is what has been killing the game, no the bloody league structure. Changing the structure of the leagues will solve nothing if the game continues tae be run in the same manner for the benefit of TWO teams instead of the 42 teams that exist. There is a great opportunity here for REAL change and it's about tae be lost tae a load of bull**** because these ***** cannae see past the end of their own ****in' noses and they're too busy fighting over the scraps from the OF table. A mair pathetic shower of mealymouthed ****in' *****bags you'll never find.

Anyway I've said my piece, I just hope somebody else comes forward and scuppers this nonsense until the real issue is resolved.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think you have finally got the point...there are clubs who would not vote for this change in voting (Non OF) so it would not pass....and therefore putting it in package would prevent any change...

Who and Why are the real questions

By all accounts Aberdeen and Celtic voted against it the last time. Everyone blames the "gruesome twosome" but there's clearly more to it than just them wanting their own way.

[GreenCastle]

And my point is there is nae point in any other change when the fundamental issue is the way game being run so why ****in' bother with any other changes , ****in' erseholes. Change is needed (starting at the top IMO) for the good of the game but this ***** isnae it, a complete and utter waste of time and like I said they're doing nothing mair than shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. That apart it's a ***** idea of a league anyway, ****in' nonsense, worse than what's there now IMO and that's saying something. Two decades of what we've just had will be back in a few seasons when the stickies return, THAT mair the anything else is what has been killing the game, no the bloody league structure. Changing the structure of the leagues will solve nothing if the game continues tae be run in the same manner for the benefit of TWO teams instead of the 42 teams that exist. There is a great opportunity here for REAL change and it's about tae be lost tae a load of bull**** because these ***** cannae see past the end of their own ****in' noses and they're too busy fighting over the scraps from the OF table. A mair pathetic shower of mealymouthed ****in' *****bags you'll never find.

Anyway I've said my piece, I just hope somebody else comes forward and scuppers this nonsense until the real issue is resolved.

:aok::top marks

It seems change for the sake of change.

No - this voting structure is what has to change :agree: - and surprised the clubs haven't stood up and changed it after newco were sent down.

[marinello59]

By all accounts Aberdeen and Celtic voted against it the last time. Everyone blames the "gruesome twosome" but there's clearly more to it than just them wanting their own way.
:agree:
The 11-1 system makes any change difficult and more than a few clubs will be happy with that. It's far to easy to blame the Old Firm for everything though instead of pointing the finger at the lack of ambition prevalent amongst the majority.

[21.05.2016]

:aok::top marks

It seems change for the sake of change.

No - this voting structure is what has to change :agree: - and surprised the clubs haven't stood up and changed it after newco were sent down.

Agreed. The clubs should have had the balls and taken the opportunity to change the ridiculous voting structure that currently stands.

[Saorsa]

:aok::top marks

It seems change for the sake of change.

No - this voting structure is what has to change :agree: - and surprised the clubs haven't stood up and changed it after newco were sent down.That's exactly what it is, SSDD and it will achieve **** all.

[Saorsa]

:agree:
The 11-1 system makes any change difficult and more than a few clubs will be happy with that. It's far to easy to blame the Old Firm for everything though instead of pointing the finger at the lack of ambition prevalent amongst the majority.That's exactly what I'm doing, I'm having a go at the gutless, visionless, ambitionless shower of *****bags that run all the other clubs (and that includes Petrie) who are prepared tae settle for being the best of the rest and letting the OF rule the roost.

[--------]

Disagree entirely, I'm totally with St.Mirrren on this. If it's not perfect then they can wait and get it right and fair tae everybody instead of rushing through this guff that has been tried and then rejected elsewhere. Most people learn from other peoples mistakes but obviously not these clowns.

The 11-1 also has tae go, absolutely ridiculous, WTF happened tae democracy. The people who agreed tae that system in the 1st place want ****in' stringing up, now is the chance tae get rid of it and it must be taken. The reason they want it kept is so when the stickies get back tae the top the status quo of the OF veto can continue. If it continues the only thing that will continue is the OF strangle hold that has suffocated Scottish fitba for decades.

The game in this country does need reform and it needs tae start at the top with the auld boys club, dungcaster, regan, oglive and longmuir can all GTF. AS far as I'm concerned they have nae interest in the long term good of Scottish fitba, only maintaining OF dominance in some guise or another. I sincerely hope others have the baws tae follow St. Mirren's lead. I can hardly believe when there is a chance tae get rid of that ludicrous voting system there are people running other clubs happy tae see it remain. Are they ****in' mental? Or are they still too craven and mealymouthed tae stand up tae the OF even when the perfect opportunity presents itself. Absolutely ****in' pathetic, too many OF erse lickers particularly that prick at Killie.

:top marksHear, hear. Couldn't agree more.


:agree:
The 11-1 system makes any change difficult and more than a few clubs will be happy with that. It's far to easy to blame the Old Firm for everything though instead of pointing the finger at the lack of ambition prevalent amongst the majority.

Yup. The disease runs right through the whole system. Associations, Leagues, clubs - all run by people out of touch with the fans and unwilling to address the issues.

[Spike Mandela]

What a load of rubbish.

The motive of St Mirren is to scupper reconstruction force SPL 2 through promote The Rangers up the league. The other stuff is smoke and mirrors. After the Rangers liquidation and subsequent attempt to get them into div 1 how anyone can thinl SPL chairmen do anything by listening to fans is beyond me

[down-the-slope]

What a load of rubbish.

The motive of St Mirren is to scupper reconstruction force SPL 2 through promote The Rangers up the league. The other stuff is smoke and mirrors. After the Rangers liquidation and subsequent attempt to get them into div 1 how anyone can thinl SPL chairmen do anything by listening to fans is beyond me
thats been the point ive been trying to make - seeing Glimour / St Mirren as some sort of superheroes for their stance is incorrect - they are just operating for self interest. none of the clubs are being honest about what they want and why they want it....

however anyone whos self interest includes giving The Rangers a leg up should be ashamed

[jdships]

And my point is there is nae point in any other change when the fundamental issue is the way game being run so why ****in' bother with any other changes , ****in' erseholes. Change is needed (starting at the top IMO) for the good of the game but this ***** isnae it, a complete and utter waste of time and like I said they're doing nothing mair than shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. That apart it's a ***** idea of a league anyway, ****in' nonsense, worse than what's there now IMO and that's saying something. Two decades of what we've just had will be back in a few seasons when the stickies return, THAT mair the anything else is what has been killing the game, no the bloody league structure. Changing the structure of the leagues will solve nothing if the game continues tae be run in the same manner for the benefit of TWO teams instead of the 42 teams that exist. There is a great opportunity here for REAL change and it's about tae be lost tae a load of bull**** because these ***** cannae see past the end of their own ****in' noses and they're too busy fighting over the scraps from the OF table. A mair pathetic shower of mealymouthed ****in' *****bags you'll never find.

Anyway I've said my piece, I just hope somebody else comes forward and scuppers this nonsense until the real issue is resolved.

Well said :agree:
Agree 100% with what you have written :thumbsup:
The highlighted quote for me sums things up perfectly


Total 'SELF INTEREST' comes to mind
Definition : regard for one's own interest or advantage, esp. with disregard for others.

[Gatecrasher]

See Milne is trying to force Ross County now saying this not going through could be terminal for Scottish football. :fenlon

[Bristolhibby]

Does anyone know why Hibs appear to be in favour of retaining the 11-1? I listened to Radio Scotland last night and the boy fro mDundee suggested a lot of clubs want to keep it (not just Rangers and Celtic).

It was also suggested that St Mirren are voting against the reconstruction after discussions with Cha Green. No reconstruction now would put SPL2 back on the table and that's likely to be on an invite basis...

The only reason I can see for the 11-1 being kept is to preserve the status quo once The Rangers return.

The other chairmen are not addressing it as they are hoping that by not changing it it will close the issue if league reform for good. Securing those vital TV pounds that only exist with a happy OF. Chairmen could say, "sorry fans 11-1, nothing we can do".

By getting rid of it the league could be changed to 20 teams, and there would only be 2 OF derbys a season and the OF would only visit twice.

This is the real crux if the issue.

We need fan power to flex its muscles like it did with the The Rangers vote last year. Fans said it would be unacceptable to have the The Rangers in the SPL, and it worked.

We need to do this again, and time is running out as every season finishes, so to does our chance for real change.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Hearts as "custodians of the game in Scotland", Purleese.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/22123648

J

[MB62]

Hearts as "custodians of the game in Scotland", Purleese.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/22123648

J

Let the clubs vote it through, then let them get on with it and let them find out just how successful this complete load of bollocks really is.

I said if the Hibees voted againt Newco getting back in to the SPL or div 1 I would support the club as much as I could, and I have. If this goes through, it will be the opposite for me, it doesn't interest me in the slightest and they can get on with the farce without me.

[Gatecrasher]

Let the clubs vote it through, then let them get on with it and let them find out just how successful this complete load of bollocks really is.

I said if the Hibees voted againt Newco getting back in to the SPL or div 1 I would support the club as much as I could, and I have. If this goes through, it will be the opposite for me, it doesn't interest me in the slightest and they can get on with the farce without me.
for me it shows a complete disregard and lack of respect for the people that still bother with the scottish game who have made it very clear the majority don't want this.

[Bishop Hibee]

I'm not in favour of either the current set up, 12-12-18 or a 16 team league (at the moment).

There should be two senior leagues of 10 with 1 up 1 down and a 2 leg play off between 9th in the top league and 2nd in the lower tier. 36 games a season playing each other twice. A 16 team league is simply a non-starter financially until Celtc and Newco leave for a Euro league. Then we could have would a larger league with more equal teams actually fighting for the title, cups every season and European football. The "money factor" of playing what was the OF would be eliminated.

Beneath the top 20 would be a regional pyramid system including the juniors and senior leagues with 1 up 1 down to the top 20 and a play off.

If the lower league clubs won"t agree then there should be a breakaway and hell mend clubs with 300 crowds every week. They may in fact be more self-sustaining. The tail can no longer be allowed to wag the dog.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I'm not in favour of either the current set up, 12-12-18 or a 16 team league (at the moment).

There should be two senior leagues of 10 with 1 up 1 down and a 2 leg play off between 9th in the top league and 2nd in the lower tier. 36 games a season playing each other twice. A 16 team league is simply a non-starter financially until Celtc and Newco leave for a Euro league. Then we could have would a larger league with more equal teams actually fighting for the title, cups every season and European football. The "money factor" of playing what was the OF would be eliminated.

Beneath the top 20 would be a regional pyramid system including the juniors and senior leagues with 1 up 1 down to the top 20 and a play off.

If the lower league clubs won"t agree then there should be a breakaway and hell mend clubs with 300 crowds every week. They may in fact be more self-sustaining. The tail can no longer be allowed to wag the dog.

Unless I am missing something, your math is wrong. :wink:

[Mr Magoo]

Hibs are very quiet on this

[down-the-slope]

We could see plenty more thrilling games similar to yesterday in the middle 8 league after split if new set up gets green light.

[Eyrie]

Based on the first half yesterday and Ross County in the SPL this season there is little between the two leagues so a more fluid situation and more money lower down is a good idea. But reading between the lines on the BBC article about Ross County's voting intentions it seems that they'd rather keep the current set up and add a playoff between 11th and 2nd instead. Bit late for such a major change to the proposals (unlike ditching the continuation of the ridiculous 11-1 voting rule).

[GreenCastle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22132504

What are Hibs voting ?

SPL vote today - SFL vote on Friday

I like the idea of Pyramid Structure and one league body...

Dislike - the stupid way the league splits (even worse than now) - the continuation of the 11-1 voting structure

Some more links with updates - http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/aberdeen/221461-live-updates-scottish-premier-league-clubs-vote-on-league-reconstruction/

How we might vote from STV - http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/aberdeen/221445-league-reconstruction-how-the-spl-clubs-are-likely-to-vote/

[Since90+2]

As far as I can tell 10 clubs , Hibs included , will vote for the reconstruction and St Mirren will vote against it meaning Ross County who are currently undecided will have the final say.

[lord bunberry]

Am I the only one that is losing interest in this farce. The fans have been ignored again so let them do what the hell they want

[Steve-O]

Yip. It's utter nonsense. Yes or no, we'll still be in a 12 team SPL next season! Only in Scotland could this represent 'radical change' :rolleyes:

[Gatecrasher]

How do you guys think the vote will go today?

Hope it doesn't pass

[Andy74]

How do you guys think the vote will go today?

Hope it doesn't pass

I've no strong views and don't really get what people are getting so upset about to be honest. It seems to be sensible to merge the governing bodies, looks like money will be split a bit more fairly and gives far more of a cushion if you ending up getting relegated. There's also a bit more opportunity to get involved in getting back up.

Other than that I'm not that bothered about how it splits and why, Hibs will still be playing so I'll gpo and watch it anyway. Well, for at least half the game.

[Billy Whizz]

Hope it goes through, lets give it a try

[StevieC]

The one major issue in all of this that has barely had a mention ...



SEASON TICKET PRICING



:rolleyes:

[Twiglet]

Ross county and st mirren vote against.

Some fans texting bbc to say they'll boycott them.

[Gatecrasher]

Ross county and st mirren vote against.

Some fans texting bbc to say they'll boycott them.
Hero's in my eyes, superb stuff :top marks

[Gus Fring]

Alistalr Lamont just tweeted to say "SPL vote has been defeated"

[Thecat23]

Am I the only one that is losing interest in this farce. The fans have been ignored again so let them do what the hell they want

This.

[greenginger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22151308

Thank goodness for that. now can someone knock heads together and come up with a plan for a top league the size the customers have asked for and keeping the agreed parts of the rejected proposal.

[davcar]

Hope it's not the end of talks as change is required, just not what was proposed

[Ozyhibby]

I was reasonably happy with the proposals but unhappy with keeping the 11-1 voting system.
None of the proposals would have changed the overall state of Scottish football.

[Broken Gnome]

Anyone genuinely able to answer the following?

How this is the one and only chance to do this? Because Rangers aren't here?

Why does Stewart Milne say this wastes three years of discussion? Why on earth would they need to start from scratch?

Last one, and main one. All this bluster about it being a whole package, with no room for cherry-picking or compromise - why? Has any CE actually explained this, because every official club statement I've seen tells supporters nothing and hides behind patronising veil of 'we know better than you'.

What's the big important secret we're all missing, or is the idea that we'd accept a lesser standard for less money and cheaper prices completely naive?

[Ozyhibby]

Stewart Milne can moan all he wants. If he hadn't blocked the change to the voting system then today's vote would have carried.

[Gatecrasher]

Anyone genuinely able to answer the following?

How this is the one and only chance to do this? Because Rangers aren't here?

Why does Stewart Milne say this wastes three years of discussion? Why on earth would they need to start from scratch?

Last one, and main one. All this bluster about it being a whole package, with no room for cherry-picking or compromise - why? Has any CE actually explained this, because every official club statement I've seen tells supporters nothing and hides behind patronising veil of 'we know better than you'.

What's the big important secret we're all missing, or is the idea that we'd accept a lesser standard for less money and cheaper prices completely naive?
because they are talking ***** and trying to force this farce through.

[ardecos]

Looks like its gone down the tubes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22151308

[grunt]

People on Twitter seem to think this now paves the way for SPL2 and the return of Sevco?

[Cabbage East]

It doesn't at all.

[Gus Fring]

People on Twitter seem to think this now paves the way for SPL2 and the return of Sevco?

An assumption based on the thought process that because this proposal failed another one will be pushed through which isn't the case. In all likelihood we'll have the status quo for next season whilst another proposal is put together. Hopefully one that keeps the good points of this one but without the moronic and convoluted system that was put forward today.

[JeMeSouviens]

People on Twitter seem to think this now paves the way for SPL2 and the return of Sevco?

If it had been voted through by SPL but rejected by SFL then SPL2 was likely. As it's been rejected by SPL then I think it has to be status quo?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Anyone genuinely able to answer the following?

How this is the one and only chance to do this? Because Rangers aren't here?

Why does Stewart Milne say this wastes three years of discussion? Why on earth would they need to start from scratch?

Last one, and main one. All this bluster about it being a whole package, with no room for cherry-picking or compromise - why? Has any CE actually explained this, because every official club statement I've seen tells supporters nothing and hides behind patronising veil of 'we know better than you'.

What's the big important secret we're all missing, or is the idea that we'd accept a lesser standard for less money and cheaper prices completely naive?

Everything else would have been opposed by at least two clubs. This was the one proposal that everyone seemed to be reasonably happy with. St Mirren hardened their stance since winning the League Cup, taking an "I'm alright Jack" attitude towards the others. Ross County were bothered by the fact that if this kind of system had been in place this season, they would have been in the middle 8 after 22 games, but under the present system they've ended up in the top six after 33 games.

[Pat 0-7]

An assumption based on the thought process that because this proposal failed another one will be pushed through which isn't the case. In all likelihood we'll have the status quo for next season whilst another proposal is put together. Hopefully one that keeps the good points of this one but without the moronic and convoluted system that was put forward today.

:agree:

Wiping out all the points of the middle 8 teams??? :crazy:

[Andy74]

9 - 3 voting was proposed and they still voted against it. Seemed to be St Mirren's main issue previously.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

I like the fact that the 11-1 vote has come back to haunt those that put it in place.

If only we had real leadership in place to take the game forward...

[Ozyhibby]

It's time the SFA did their job and took control of the game in Scotland.

[hibee19]

Fantastic news, a yes vote would have killed scottish football. Money would have been taken away from teams who are struggling, cannot compete in europe etc, to give to smaller teams who are struggling. The teams in SFL1 need more money but so do the teams in the SPL, we need to find a way to generate more money for everyone in scottish football.

[McSwanky]

Everything else would have been opposed by at least two clubs. This was the one proposal that everyone seemed to be reasonably happy with. St Mirren hardened their stance since winning the League Cup, taking an "I'm alright Jack" attitude towards the others. Ross County were bothered by the fact that if this kind of system had been in place this season, they would have been in the middle 8 after 22 games, but under the present system they've ended up in the top six after 33 games.

If (and it's a very big if) that was Ross County's reason for voting against then it's a very strange decision. I can't believe they would base a decision on the fact that they happened to have a good run at a certain time this season (their good run could just as easily been 10 games earlier, meaning that the proposed system would have worked in their favour instead). Surely they have some proper motives too?

[HFC 0-7]

9 - 3 voting was proposed and they still voted against it. Seemed to be St Mirren's main issue previously.

Think the 9-3 voting was proposed as if granted the re structure would have been put through?

[Aldo]

Why have splits in leagues and crap like that. Play offs for promotion I would agree with but this wiping points out is utter nonsense.

I think they tried to push this through too quickly IMHO.

We need change but the change has to be beneficially to everyone and not just smellic and the Huns.

[gobragh1875]

Sevco got to them chuck green at st midden a few weeks ago then visits Ross county I wonder why !

[McSwanky]

Another thing... What happened to the whole pyramid thing? Seems there's no mention whatsoever of it in any proposals (unless I'm missing something here). Until we start rewarding teams properly for doing well and punishing them for doing badly (yes, East Stirlingshire, I mean you) then it's hard to see how Scottish Football in general is going to move on.

[Andy74]

Why have splits in leagues and crap like that. Play offs for promotion I would agree with but this wiping points out is utter nonsense.

I think they tried to push this through too quickly IMHO.

We need change but the change has to be beneficially to everyone and not just smellic and the Huns.

That doesn't really make sense though. Celtic would have given up more income than anyone else under this and they had agreed. They are hardly going to have to worry about what section they would be in so the mecnahnics of that wouldn't have bothered them too much.

Rangers wouldn't have benefitted in any way either, in fact, they'd have ended up still in the bottom rung albeit a bit nearer the top league.

[LeighLoyal]

Sevco got to them chuck green at st midden a few weeks ago then visits Ross county I wonder why !



We know he's a crook and a liar so 1 and 1 make 2! He didn't want Sevco in an 18 team bottom tier and got his wish via chicanery with these two clubs.

[patlowe]

Fantastic news, a yes vote would have killed scottish football. Money would have been taken away from teams who are struggling, cannot compete in europe etc, to give to smaller teams who are struggling. The teams in SFL1 need more money but so do the teams in the SPL, we need to find a way to generate more money for everyone in scottish football.

Am inclined to agree with parts of this. If clubs continue to live beyond their means then a simple redistribution of current finances, while important in the grand scheme of things, will only postpone the inevitable. A self-sustaining Scottish football, while painful in the short term, is the only real solution IMO.

Our game, as shown by the recent semi finals, has the potential to be exciting and inspiring. Do we really need to be at the mercy of the money men/Sky for this to be so? Give me a rough diamond like Harris or GMS over an overpaid, SKY-funded mercenary any day of the week.

[seanshow]

Think the 9-3 voting was proposed as if granted the re structure would have been put through?

It's not clear if the change to 9-3 was for this decision only, or across the board on decisions big or small.
I presume it was the former otherwise they would have voted yes. :confused:

Remember if agreed the plans and 11-1 voting were locked down for 3 years, conveniently in time for sevco to return to the SPL........if they are still alive.

[Andy74]

It's not clear if the change to 9-3 was for this decision only, or across the board on decisions big or small.
I presume it was the former otherwise they would have voted yes. :confused:

Remember if agreed the plans and 11-1 voting were locked down for 3 years, conveniently in time for sevco to return to the SPL........if they are still alive.

It was a proposal to move to 9 - 3 for any future league reconstruction I think. St Mirren had said that this is what had stopped any previous change - a large part of their complaint.

[McSwanky]

It was a proposal to move to 9 - 3 for any future league reconstruction I think. St Mirren had said that this is what had stopped any previous change - a large part of their complaint.

Just reconstruction? I think the 11-1 vote rules applied to more than just reconstruction?

[GreenCastle]

Change is needed but I don't think this rushed change was the answer.

For chairmen to come out and say it's all or nothing is a farce.

There were some good ideas - one body controlling all the leagues and the pyramid system but the nonsense of the league splitting and how the 11-1 hasn't changed yet is a farce.

I am pretty glad it's failed as they can now properly look at the flaws in the game and try and sort them - not just looking for a quick bit of extra money and quick fix.

Hibs obviously voted for it - I would be interested to see a statement with their thoughts on what's been happening.

The league has probably been one of the most competitive this season for a while without sevco - I would probably say the split has ruined it this year. With Partick coming up next year I would imagine it will be an even tighter league which is what fans want.

[Andy74]

Change is needed but I don't think this rushed change was the answer.

For chairmen to come out and say it's all or nothing is a farce.

There were some good ideas - one body controlling all the leagues and the pyramid system but the nonsense of the league splitting and how the 11-1 hasn't changed yet is a farce.

I am pretty glad it's failed as they can now properly look at the flaws in the game and try and sort them - not just looking for a quick bit of extra money and quick fix.

Hibs obviously voted for it - I would be interested to see a statement with their thoughts on what's been happening.

The league has probably been one of the most competitive this season for a while without sevco - I would probably say the split has ruined it this year. With Partick coming up next year I would imagine it will be an even tighter league which is what fans want.

Was it rushed? They have been saying this has been discussed for 3 years with various compromises/concessions etc given during that time.

[seanshow]

Just reconstruction? I think the 11-1 vote rules applied to more than just reconstruction?

Correct it does, all the important decisions like dividing up the revenue, prize money, agreeing commercial deals and TV rights with broadcasters.

The SPL statement mentions nothing of these changing to 9-3 , so St Midden & Ross co did the right thing imo

[Sergio sledge]

Ross County were bothered by the fact that if this kind of system had been in place this season, they would have been in the middle 8 after 22 games, but under the present system they've ended up in the top six after 33 games.

I'd be surprised if that was Ross County's reason for doing this. McGregor met with season ticket holders a few months ago and got a resounding "No" from them, to the extent that over 70% of them said they wouldn't buy season tickets under the new scheme as they wouldn't know what they were buying. They weren't threatening not to attend, just not to buy season tickets. Once you have a major drop off/uncertainty in season ticket income then you cannot set any sort of budget set for the season which causes serious issues.

Surely Ross County should be praised for listening to their fans rather than just keeping the fans in the dark like Hibs have done.

I don't see why the changes every fan wants (play offs, fairer distribution of wealth, one governing body, pyramid structure) couldn't be pushed through without changing the league structure at present, it's not a long term solution as the league structure needs to change, but would serve a short term purpose for everyone.

[danhibees1875]

So where do we go from here? The next proposal is drawn up and talked about for a while and eventually another vote? Repeat that until there is a proposal on the table that gets an 11-1 majority?

[Beefster]

Another example that those who run our game aren't actually fit to do so.

[GreenCastle]

Was it rushed? They have been saying this has been discussed for 3 years with various compromises/concessions etc given during that time.

Prove to me 3 years ago this split idea was mentioned with the league ? Happy to be proved wrong.

The pyramid idea etc - that's been talked about yes but I can't ever remember the leagues been broken down being mentioned till recently.

Finally do you actually believe what they say? They said Scottish Football would die if newco left the SPL - looks like it's more competitive and exciting without them.

[Andy74]

Prove to me 3 years ago this split idea was mentioned with the league ? Happy to be proved wrong.

The pyramid idea etc - that's been talked about yes but I can't ever remember the leagues been broken down being mentioned till recently.

Finally do you actually believe what they say? They said Scottish Football would die if newco left the SPL - looks like it's more competitive and exciting without them.

Hey, I'm not bothered, was just asking the question and relaying what they had said about how long this had been planned/discussed for.

[ballengeich]

While, like the rest of us, I haven't seen all the details of the proposal, I thought that it was probably a slight improvement on the status quo. Plus points were the redistribution of money to SFL1 clubs who're struggling to stay full- time, the opportunity for more movement between the top two divisions and a guarantee of two home and two away games against teams you meet four time. I also think SPL stadium requirements were going to be relaxed.

There's an irony in Stewart Milne's reaction if it's true that he was the one who sided with Celtic to retain the 11-1 voting requirement. If that had been changed the new system could have gone through.

I don't see how an SPL2 can be introduced for next season as it would also need an 11-1 vote to be set up.

People alleging that Sevco have influenced Ross County and St Mirren underestimate Messrs Gilmour and McGregor. Both have stated their objections coherently. They each have a supporter base opposed to the change. Gilmour is strongly opposed to the retention of 11-1, while McGregor had a meeting with fans whose main point seemed to be the valid one made by an earlier poster in this thread that they would not know what they were purchasing when buying a season ticket.

As a side point, I don't know why any Hibs supporter should particularly care about a pyramid below the current setup. Any clubs which came in would reach the bottom of SFL1 at best as there's none I can see that have any realistic chance of supporting a full-time club unless another Brooks Mileson comes on the scene.

[GreenCastle]

Hey, I'm not bothered, was just asking the question and relaying what they had said about how long this had been planned/discussed for.

:aok: I just think it's chairmen etc exaggerating to fit an agenda which is a short term plan and no long term stability.

[lord bunberry]

I've just come up with this radical proposal, why don't we just play each other 4 times and not have a split.

[GreenCastle]

The irony is their 11-1 voting system has come back to bite them all in the arse.

Scottish Football is in a real mess and needs properly sorted out - too many egos and suits in the SFA that don't know what they are doing.

We would have been a bigger laughing stock if this had gone through and splitting the leagues midway through next season. Having bought a ST for next season I wouldn't' have been happy with this.

The chances are it would change in a couple of years then we would be changing the format again. Can we not produce something that is sensible and last bringing some stability and a better product which is value for money ?

[Sergio sledge]

As a side point, I don't know why any Hibs supporter should particularly care about a pyramid below the current setup. Any clubs which came in would reach the bottom of SFL1 at best as there's none I can see that have any realistic chance of supporting a full-time club unless another Brooks Mileson comes on the scene.

Personally, it would bring a freshness to the whole set-up to be able to welcome new clubs into the league and there are certainly some clubs in SFL3 who are going nowhere and could do with the added incentive of relegation to spur them on to improve or face relegation from the league.

It's hard to say whether clubs could make an impact, but you only have to look at Ross County and ICT to see what can be done by clubs coming into the league and the impact they can make. Certainly there is potential in the south east of Scotland for a club to make the step up, as well as a few clubs in the Highland League. (although going by our record up here that is probably not a good thing...) I don't know much about junior football, but there will be some clubs there who can contribute more to Scottish football than some who are currently in the top 4 divisions just now.

[down-the-slope]

I wonder how the hole in finances are going to be filled now as the selling of the new league set up was big part of push to get it agreed :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

I wonder how the hole in finances are going to be filled now as the selling of the new league set up was big part of push to get it agreed :rolleyes:

We might just see more Dunfermline's in the next year or two

[HFC 0-7]

Was it rushed? They have been saying this has been discussed for 3 years with various compromises/concessions etc given during that time.

May have been discussed between them, but I think the fact the fans were told late and also that it would be implemented so quick it felt rushed. On the radio I have been hearing people talking about good points of the restructure that we're never shared with fans that may have changed the outcome of the surveys.

[Andy74]

Just chatting to a Partick a Falkirk and a Dunfermline fan in the office and they are all quite disappointed.

As they see it getting promoted just now is a bit of a nightmare. You go up and you have to make the choice of budgeting for probably going back down and then almost ensuring you do, or taking a chance and spending a bit more.

What tends to happen is that the fans who turned out in the first division to see a winning team get turned off by battling away at the bottom and the cautious approach that they often take because of this.

The proposals would have given these teams at the top of the first at least a few games against the bottom of the Premier league sides and then more comfort when they did go up both in terms of the money split/system and the fact you get an extended play off again to save yourself and then another shot next year if you do go down.

From a Hibs point of view it would have made going down a bit more unlikely and more of a cushion and a follow up chance quite quickly to get back if the worst did happen.

That said, maybe just having a bigger league allows some of these benefits but maybe with a bit less of the interest that splitting into sections would give for teams caught around the edges.

[Jones28]

I didn't hear ANY support for this idea from the supporters themselves, why on earth was it still being floated in the first place? The more time passes, the more detached the spl seems to become.

[hibee19]

Playoffs at the top of the league is a good idea IMO. Give teams something to play for, half a chance to win the league, I think you would see attendances rise, TV money rise and in turn also sponsorship money etc rise.

[Beefster]

I didn't hear ANY support for this idea from the supporters themselves, why on earth was it still being floated in the first place? The more time passes, the more detached the spl seems to become.

The SPL clubs were happy to trumpet how they were listening to the fans last year but have been quick enough to complete ignore the fans' views about this reconstruction.

It's supremely ironic that the proposals have been trashed by the only club that actually formed its opinion after consulting its fans and by the voting system that the fans are desperate to have removed.

[Andy74]

I didn't hear ANY support for this idea from the supporters themselves, why on earth was it still being floated in the first place? The more time passes, the more detached the spl seems to become.

Do the supporters know what they collectively want though, why, and what the implications are?

I hear the example of Tescos quite a lot in that they provide customers with what they want or people don't buy. They don't tell them what they are going to want. I'm not so sure of that, we are told quite often what to buy, what brand and what the advantages of doing so are.

Apple are a good example of providing the public with stuff they had no idea that they needed or wanted.

[ScottB]

We should listen to the Swiss on this.

They tried the 12-12 system and say it didn't work. Now, what they did advise, and I'm inclined to go along with, is that the smaller clubs simply have to accept that they are small clubs, and 'know their place.'

It might sound harsh, but the SPL teams are cash starved as it is, is a viable way forward to share this money around all 42 clubs? We need a more competitive top flight, and clubs outwith Celtic capable of going beyond being knocked out of Europe at the first time of asking. We have too many clubs in this country, giving them some more money won't fix that, it will just end up creating more clubs teetering on the brink rather than less.


It would probably take the SFA to devise a new structure, kill off the SPL and SFL and invite the clubs into it to pull it off, but I'd go for 2 divisions, a top of 16 or 18, a bottom of 18 or 20, then chuck all the rest into a unified regional pyramid structure. No splits, no 4 times a season nonsense. To make up extra games and give the TV companies the derby matches they like, why not create regional group stages at the start of the league cup and bundle it in with the league TV deal?


This system would offer clubs such as ourselves stability and the safety to blood young players, 3 up / 3 down with play offs would generate plenty interest and unifying all the structures below that will allow clubs to find their levels or, without sounding harsh about it, hit the wall, if that is what needs to happen.

[IWasThere2016]

Do the supporters know what they collectively want though, why, and what the implications are?

I hear the example of Tescos quite a lot in that they provide customers with what they want or people don't buy. They don't tell them what they are going to want. I'm not so sure of that, we are told quite often what to buy, what brand and what the advantages of doing so are.

Apple are a good example of providing the public with stuff they had no idea that they needed or wanted.

And this is comparable to Scottish Fitba in what way? :confused:

[Andy74]

And this is comparable to Scottish Fitba in what way? :confused:

I've no idea. I'm not even that bothered about this discussion.

[IWasThere2016]

I've no idea. I'm not even that bothered about this discussion.

:greengrin

[Gatecrasher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/22153661#asset

love the high and mighty pish coming from Milne, the 9-3 concession was for league reconstruction only. No wonder he told them to bolt.

[Lago]

I wonder how the hole in finances are going to be filled now as the selling of the new league set up was big part of push to get it agreed :rolleyes:
Watch the standard fall even further as clubs cut budgets way down. No sponser yet for spl next season. Frankly out look for footage in scotland is dire.

[ancienthibby]

You create a plan that heralds a major change for the enduring benefit for the business you are paid by.

You sell this plan to the compliant media.

You garner support from your masters and underlings.

At the critical vote, your plans are hammered by two (maybe one!) key votes.

Your great plan is toast.

This has not been your first catastrophe.

Should you resign??:cb

[Velma Dinkley]

One of the main reasons these proposals weren't voted through is obviously because they were put forward as a packaged all or nothing, take it or leave it deal. It's absolutely moronic to tell club chairman that they have to vote for changes that they don't want otherwise they are the ones to blame for the lack of change. Every single proposal for change must be voted on individually. If this had been done we would be seeing changes that the majority of clubs wanted with less favourable changes rejected. The people in charge of Scottish football have failed in every aspect and have to go.

[Paisley Hibby]

I'd be surprised if that was Ross County's reason for doing this. McGregor met with season ticket holders a few months ago and got a resounding "No" from them, to the extent that over 70% of them said they wouldn't buy season tickets under the new scheme as they wouldn't know what they were buying. They weren't threatening not to attend, just not to buy season tickets. Once you have a major drop off/uncertainty in season ticket income then you cannot set any sort of budget set for the season which causes serious issues.

Surely Ross County should be praised for listening to their fans rather than just keeping the fans in the dark like Hibs have done.

I don't see why the changes every fan wants (play offs, fairer distribution of wealth, one governing body, pyramid structure) couldn't be pushed through without changing the league structure at present, it's not a long term solution as the league structure needs to change, but would serve a short term purpose for everyone.

Great post :aok: It's clear that the powers that be completely failed to explain why 12-12-18 is better than the current 12-10-10-10. If Doncaster had any shred of self-respect he would resign.

[.Sean.]

Get St Mirren and Ross County to ****.

[HibeeSince85]

Without going through 19 pages can someone answer me this please:

Were Hibs prepared to vote for league re-construction and retain the 11-1 voting structure?(the thing that needs changed most)

From what I've read the only offer to amend the voting structure was for future re-construction meaning for any other changrs(financial/prize money) it would remain 11-1 and when Sevco got to the SPL normal service resumes.

Is this correct?

Cheers in advance

[Part/Time Supporter]

Without going through 19 pages can someone answer me this please:

Were Hibs prepared to vote for league re-construction and retain the 11-1 voting structure?(the thing that needs changed most)

From what I've read the only offer to amend the voting structure was for future re-construction meaning for any other changrs(financial/prize money) it would remain 11-1 and when Sevco got to the SPL normal service resumes.

Is this correct?

Cheers in advance

There was a vote earlier in the season to get rid of 11-1 on all matters, but it failed because Celtic and Aberdeen voted against it.

[HibeeSince85]

There was a vote earlier in the season to get rid of 11-1 on all matters, but it failed because Celtic and Aberdeen voted against it.

Cheers. I must've missed that. What are the sheep doing voting against it?

The SPL couldn't run a piss up in the proverbial. SFL n SFA an aw.

[Eyrie]

There was a vote earlier in the season to get rid of 11-1 on all matters, but it failed because Celtic and Aberdeen voted against it.

Which has come back to haunt Milne today.


Today’s vote was a real missed opportunity. Gods know when we’ll get enough teams to agree to a new proposal.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Which has come back to haunt Milne today.


Today’s vote was a real missed opportunity. Gods know when we’ll get enough teams to agree to a new proposal.


That's the problem. It's all well and good folk personally criticising Doncaster, Regan and so on, but we have a system where if two clubs (for whatever reason, including personal self interest) want to preserve the present system, it will be. You might have what you think is a great plan that works for everyone, but if two disagree, that's it bust.

[Beefster]

There was a vote earlier in the season to get rid of 11-1 on all matters, but it failed because Celtic and Aberdeen voted against it.

Was this reported anywhere, PTS?

[Saorsa]

That's the problem. It's all well and good folk personally criticising Doncaster, Regan and so on, but we have a system where if two clubs (for whatever reason, including personal self interest) want to preserve the present system, it will be. You might have what you think is a great plan that works for everyone, but if two disagree, that's it bust.cowards, visionless, ambitionless, *****bags, the lot of them. :agree:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Was this reported anywhere, PTS?

It's being reported now because it's relevant to the collapse of the proposal.

[Spike Mandela]

EVerything is going to plan. SPL2 will be mooted now, Rangers will be invited in and will no doubt make a major players purchace from St Mirren in the summer. Pure coincidence of course. Job done. Reconstruction talk goes away forever. Back to normal.

[Beefster]

It's being reported now because it's relevant to the collapse of the proposal.

Milne's got a ****ing cheek then.

[Part/Time Supporter]

EVerything is going to plan. SPL2 will be mooted now, Rangers will be invited in and will no doubt make a major players purchace from St Mirren in the summer. Pure coincidence of course. Job done. Reconstruction talk goes away forever. Back to normal.

http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/index.asp?tm=2&nid=4495&cd=2013




I personally believed that the proposals were a major step forward, one league body would have been progress and brought sponsors and advertisers to a new and exciting product, the new league structure would have brought excitement and meaningful games and a financial distribution model that would support all clubs in Scotland and in particular all full time clubs.



There are no other proposals on the table and none are likely in the near future.



It is now time to concentrate on all that is positive on the park. Many Scottish clubs, including Dundee United, have a vibrant youth policy and we have also seen many exciting games throughout the season, especially in recent weeks. Our own club still has much to play for this season and the outlook for next season excites me.


[Saorsa]

I like the fact that the 11-1 vote has come back to haunt those that put it in place.

If only we had real leadership in place to take the game forward...Sorry, what is that, a new concept?

[.Sean.]

Was this reported anywhere, PTS?

First i've heard of this?


Stewart Milne's got a right cheek if so, he's the main critic of St Mirren and RC in this.



I was dead against the proposal when it first came to light, but it can it honestly be any worse than what we've currently got? I'm really quite pissed of at this.


Ross ****ing County? :fuming: Can't wait until they're back in the lower leagues and struggling financially.

[Saorsa]

First i've heard of this?


Stewart Milne's got a right cheek if so, he's the main critic of St Mirren and RC in this.



I was dead against the proposal when it first came to light, but it can it honestly be any worse than what we've currently got? I'm really quite pissed of at this.


Ross ****ing County? :fuming: Can't wait until they're back in the lower leagues and struggling financially.Nae system will make any difference until the game is run for the benefit of 42 teams and no just 2. I hope everything falls on it's erse until these *****bags address the real issue.

[seanshow]

I'll speculate that the cheque Milne was going to get from Celtic for scuppering the 9-3 proposal in January, will now be lost in the post.

......Hence why he was close to tears leaving Hampden. :wink:

[Saorsa]

EVerything is going to plan. SPL2 will be mooted now, Rangers will be invited in and will no doubt make a major players purchace from St Mirren in the summer. Pure coincidence of course. Job done. Reconstruction talk goes away forever. Back to normal.If SPL 2 happens and the stickies get bumped up the leagues I'm finished, 400 quid paid for next season or not. :agree:

[HibeeSince85]

We voted yes in today's vote yeah? So therefor we were happy to go forward with this ridiculous voting structure in place?

[HibeeSince85]

First i've heard of this?


Stewart Milne's got a right cheek if so, he's the main critic of St Mirren and RC in this.



I was dead against the proposal when it first came to light, but it can it honestly be any worse than what we've currently got? I'm really quite pissed of at this.


Ross ****ing County? :fuming: Can't wait until they're back in the lower leagues and struggling financially.

Why you having a go at Ross County, are they and St Mirren not doing the right thing in stopping this? If this went ahead it would be it. Once Sevco got back in the SPL1 11-1 would be back to normal after a 3 year adventure.

The game needs a major overhaul. I wish we had voted the same way.

[down-the-slope]

As I thought St Mirrens Hero status badly exposed...9-3 offered as further compromise and still turned it down....

Strange when they made a big fuss... their bluff is called....hope they got a good bung from Chuckie because they have not made many friends over this

'Clubs in favour had proposed altering the required majority for changes in league structure from 11-1 to 9-3.
But that was rejected by the two clubs as well as the main proposal'

[Gatecrasher]

As I thought St Mirrens Hero status badly exposed...9-3 offered as further compromise and still turned it down....

Strange when they made a big fuss... their bluff is called....hope they got a good bung from Chuckie because they have not made many friends over this
The 9-3 offered was only for future reconstruction, nothing to do with tv money or anything else for that matter. They were right to tell them to bolt IMO

[lucky]

The 9-3 offer exposes 2 teams self interest. But Aberdeen have thereselves to blame for the vote going down

[ronaldo7]

We voted yes in today's vote yeah? So therefor we were happy to go forward with this ridiculous voting structure in place?

A proposal was put forward to change to a 9-3 vote which was turned down by St Mirren and Ross County. This further concession from the others was thought to be the stumbling block, however they said their was other things wrong with the proposals but wouldn't say what they were.

[marinello59]

As I thought St Mirrens Hero status badly exposed...9-3 offered as further compromise and still turned it down....

Strange when they made a big fuss... their bluff is called....hope they got a good bung from Chuckie because they have not made many friends over this

'Clubs in favour had proposed altering the required majority for changes in league structure from 11-1 to 9-3.
But that was rejected by the two clubs as well as the main proposal'

I'll hold fire until St Mirren explain exactly why they refused what, on the face of it, seems a reasonable compromise. Something stinks here though.

[Saorsa]

11-1, 9-3, all pish. What's wrong with a simple majority vote. 9-3 is nae better than 11-1 when you have OF stooges running other clubs, just takes a couple tae vote with them and they'll no be hard tae find.Mr. abstain at killie for a start

[lucky]

Whilst a bigger league is preferable but finances don't allow it. But it also leads to more meaningless games.

[Gatecrasher]

I'll hold fire until St Mirren explain exactly why they refused what, on the face of it, seems a reasonable compromise. Something stinks here though.
:agree: A statement from the buddies will be interesting reading.

[PatHead]

A proposal was put forward to change to a 9-3 vote which was turned down by St Mirren and Ross County. This further concession from the others was thought to be the stumbling block, however they said their was other things wrong with the proposals but wouldn't say what they were.

I think we all agree that the 11-1 is one of the major problems with Scottish football. The concession offered today only applied to league reconstruction and did not apply to anything else. The problem would therefore not be solved it was only a tool to override St Mirren's objections. Stewart Milne definitely scuppered the plan to alter the voting structure earlier this year. (I know this from a club director). He was not willing to discuss any alternatives and tried to bully the other clubs. Anyway why should basket case clubs like Motherwell, Dundee, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Hearts be allowed to dictate to well run clubs like Ross County and St Mirren? They should get their own house in order first and Scottish football would not be in the mess it is in now.

[greenginger]

Whilst a bigger league is preferable but finances don't allow it. But it also leads to more meaningless games.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/europe/12302-poland-s-ekstraklasa-revamps-its-league-structure-for-2013-14-season

The Polish top division is going to consist of 16 teams, play each other twice, split into top 8 and bottom 8 playing a further once.

16 teams, 37 fixtures, only see 3 or 4 teams visiting your ground more than once.

Three leagues of 16. 16. and 10. with any form of promotion, relegation and play-offs deemed suitable.

Too simple for the Blazers to go for !

[bighairyfaeleith]

I think we all agree that the 11-1 is one of the major problems with Scottish football. The concession offered today only applied to league reconstruction and did not apply to anything else. The problem would therefore not be solved it was only a tool to override St Mirren's objections. Stewart Milne definitely scuppered the plan to alter the voting structure earlier this year. (I know this from a club director). He was not willing to discuss any alternatives and tried to bully the other clubs. Anyway why should basket case clubs like Motherwell, Dundee, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Hearts be allowed to dictate to well run clubs like Ross County and St Mirren? They should get their own house in order first and Scottish football would not be in the mess it is in now.

Exactly

This isnt about st mirren. This is about the people in charge continually trying to force upon the fans things we dont want. I felt real anger at the way aberdeen and hearts tried to attack st mirren yesterday. Nowt but ****ing bullies

Glad hibs kept there opinions to themselve, even if they did vote the wrong way

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2

[down-the-slope]

The 9-3 offered was only for future reconstruction, nothing to do with tv money or anything else for that matter. They were right to tell them to bolt IMO

No its for more than that if you check SPL rules (look back on thread where i posted) there are 3 cats of issue that all have different voting numbers required...

EDIT

heres Rules of association

http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/ARTICLES%20AS%20AT%2030%20MAY%202012%20(CLEAN).pdf

[grunt]

I admit that I don't understand the pros and cons of the proposed changes, and I certainly don't understand the positions of Aberdeen, St Mirren and Ross County. The thing that really annoys me in all this is the position taken by Doncaster. He earns a small fortune as CEO of the SPL but anytime he's interviewed, none of this debacle is his fault. It's not his fault that the clubs couldn't come to a decision, it's not his fault that there's not a plan B. If any other CEO behaved like that they'd soon get the sack.

[down-the-slope]

I admit that I don't understand the pros and cons of the proposed changes, and I certainly don't understand the positions of Aberdeen, St Mirren and Ross County. The thing that really annoys me in all this is the position taken by Doncaster. He earns a small fortune as CEO of the SPL but anytime he's interviewed, none of this debacle is his fault. It's not his fault that the clubs couldn't come to a decision, it's not his fault that there's not a plan B. If any other CEO behaved like that they'd soon get the sack.

That's because its a membership organisation - He may give advice / guidance / leadership etc but its the membership who have the power and should collectively - us included - be held responsible (which is why the voting majorities are such a vital issue - too tight and any change becomes hard to agree. too loose and then there is no stability and chaos - sponsors / supporters want to know what they are paying for. If a simple majority for all decisions then the bottom six could propose no relegation to save their a** and only need one other to get it passed)

[Gatecrasher]

No its for more than that if you check SPL rules (look back on thread where i posted) there are 3 cats of issue that all have different voting numbers required...

EDIT

heres Rules of association

http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/ARTICLES%20AS%20AT%2030%20MAY%202012%20(CLEAN).pdf
"Clubs in favour had proposed altering the required majority for changes in league structure from 11-1 to 9-3. But that was rejected by the two clubs as well as the main proposal www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22151308 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22151308)
It doesn't say about changing it for nothing else only league structure