Israeli Air strikes in Gaza

[Betty Boop]

wow. and i had assumed you'd retired :top marks


:agree: I hoped he'd be back !

[khib70]

Anonymous Operation Israel - Press Release

Thursday - November 15, 2012 2:00 AM ET USA

Greetings World --

For far to long, Anonymous has stood by with the rest of the world and watched in despair the barbaric, brutal and despicable treatment of the Palestinian people in the so called "Occupied Territories" by the Israel Defense Force. Like so many around the globe, we have felt helpless in the face of such implacable evil. And today's insane attack and threatened invasion of Gaza was more of the same.

But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way - we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch. To the IDF and government of Israel we issue you this warning only once. Do NOT shut down the Internet into the "Occupied Territories", and cease and desist from your terror upon the innocent people of Palestine or you will know the full and unbridled wrath of Anonymous. And like all the other evil governments that have faced our rage, you will NOT survive it unscathed.

To the people of Gaza and the "Occupied Territories", know that Anonymous stands with you in this fight. We will do everything in our power to hinder the evil forces of the IDF arrayed against you. We will use all our resources to make certain you stay connected to the Internet and remain able to transmit your experiences to the world. As a start, we have put together the Anonymous Gaza Care Package - http://bit.ly/XH87C5 - which contains instructions in Arabic and English that can aid you in the event the Israel government makes good on it's threat to attempt to sever your Internet connection. It also contains useful information on evading IDF surveillance, and some basic first aid and other useful information. We will continue to expand and improve this document in the coming days, and we will transmit it to you by every means at our disposal. We encourage you to download this package, and to share it with your fellow Palestinians to the best of your ability.

We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel - know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.

We Are Anonymous

We Are Everywhere
Self-important, pompous geek tossers.

I'd keep their lights on at night if I were them............

[Hibbyradge]

http://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/plo.ira.jpg/75388019/plo.ira.jpg

[hibsbollah]

Gilad Sharon in the Jerusalem Post..."The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas...they chose this freely and must live with the consequences. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didnt stop with Hiroshima; the Japanese werent surrendering fast enough so they hit Nagasaki too"

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1

[jw1410]

Palestine fires rockets into Israel, they're in the wrong.
Israel fires rockets into Palestine, they're in the wrong.

Sometimes I think its important to forget about why they're doing what they are, and remembering the repercussions they have for the people involved. Debates over this always seem to be trying to justify the behaviour of one group or the other, both have valid points to make, but ultimately the actions of both are despicable, so its hard for me to feel sympathy for one cause or another. Just my opinion.

[Beefster]

Gilad Sharon in the Jerusalem Post..."The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas...they chose this freely and must live with the consequences. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didnt stop with Hiroshima; the Japanese werent surrendering fast enough so they hit Nagasaki too"

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1

If you hate Israel, reading their newspapers might not be the best idea unless you're looking for outrage.

[hibsbollah]

If you hate Israel, reading their newspapers might not be the best idea unless you're looking for outrage.

Reading is normally a good idea. Even if its sometimes outrageous.

[Beefster]

Reading is normally a good idea. Even if its sometimes outrageous.

You're going to love the Daily Mail website.

[hibsbollah]

You're going to love the Daily Mail website.

Im famiiar with it. Good for celebrity news.

[CropleyWasGod]

Kaufman wades in.

https://t.co/th9vVZiz

[Betty Boop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KWYyrLfrSig#!

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KWYyrLfrSig#!

Ouch!

[VickMackie]

What are people's thoughts on the Gazan people voting in Hamas?

For anyone with a strong stomach and over 18 you can see videos of men executed and one dragged through the street on the back of a motorbike after being accused of being spies on liveleaks.

If anyone really gived a **** it would be in Syria. There's literally dozens or hundreds of videos of people being sniper practice for bored soldiers/rebels.

I've never really cared much for the politics of war, or Muslim countries if I'm honest but what's happening in Syria is terrible. Literally 100x worse than Gaza and Israel. That's not to take away from what's going on there but the worlds media is focused on the wrong thing here.

[khib70]

What are people's thoughts on the Gazan people voting in Hamas?

For anyone with a strong stomach and over 18 you can see videos of men executed and one dragged through the street on the back of a motorbike after being accused of being spies on liveleaks.

If anyone really gived a **** it would be in Syria. There's literally dozens or hundreds of videos of people being sniper practice for bored soldiers/rebels.

I've never really cared much for the politics of war, or Muslim countries if I'm honest but what's happening in Syria is terrible. Literally 100x worse than Gaza and Israel. That's not to take away from what's going on there but the worlds media is focused on the wrong thing here.
Of course they are....and not just the world's media, if you read back through this thread.

[hibsbollah]

Of course they are....and not just the world's media, if you read back through this thread.

Why would we be talking about Syria when this thread is about Gaza :dunno:

Maybe you should start a separate thread on Syria and we can debate it there. Or one about the Congo, another incredibly brutal conflict that has been ignored for months now.

[steakbake]

Why would we be talking about Syria when this thread is about Gaza :dunno:

Maybe you should start a separate thread on Syria and we can debate it there. Or one about the Congo, another incredibly brutal conflict that has been ignored for months now.

The one in the Congo has been going on for years. There was even the 1998-2008 "Great War of Africa" which cost over 5 million lives, but has not even registered on the radar.

If 5 million lives were lost in a conflict more or less anywhere else in the world, we'd all know about it and we'd have been involved.

[Sir David Gray]

I note that a ceasefire was agreed on Wednesday which will see a temporary calm in the region. However even after the ceasefire had taken effect, Israel had to contend with rockets coming in from Gaza, but they did not respond.

You would be forgiven if you didn't know anything about this though as Israel failing to respond to provocative rocket fire doesn't seem to be deemed very newsworthy by the mainstream news channels...

Not much mention of it on here either!

Something else which hasn't had much mention on here either is the way that Hamas has dealt with their own people, who have been accused of being spies for Israel. No questions asked, no legal representation, no trial and no discussion.

They were simply dragged out into the streets and publicly shot in the head and their bodies were then dragged through the streets as a warning to everyone else.

It's funny that we've got many people on this forum who can't wait to give us their liberal, human rights speech every time we've got any debate on here about a controversial issue and yet when we've got an example here of a clear and flagrant abuse of human rights occurring in Gaza that doesn't involve Israel, they are nowhere to be found.


Thats it in a nut shell. :top marks

I have no time for Israel and the torture they put the Palestinians through and can't understand people who do. I respect those who are Christian but the religion contradicts itself through its actions. All I ever hear Christians saying is "but it's in the bible" As if it's justification. Israel wasn't around before 1948!

Would love to see Israel without American aid and the Arab spring being taken to Palestine. Enough people are the world support Palestine but there is not united action being taken to stop Israel.

I think you'll find that it was, which is at the centre of the whole conflict.

The land of Israel has existed for thousands of years, as a land for the Jewish people. Over the centuries they have been continually dispersed from that land and been spread all around the world. It was only in 1948 that they were finally brought back to that land and given back their own nation.

Clearly there's a lot of people who are opposed to a Jewish state being present in the Middle East and that's the position we're in at the moment. There may be a ceasefire at the moment but the situation will continue to get worse.

As for the Arab Spring being taken to Palestine, I really don't get that point at all. The Arab Spring has seen uprisings in Muslim nations where the people in those countries were controlled by authoritarian, largely secular dictators who did not allow a proper democratic process to take place. The Palestinians had a free vote in 2006 and they overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, who are still the ruling party in Gaza to this day.

I'm really struggling to understand that comment to be honest.


I cannot see why being opposed to Islamic extremism means that you support Israel.

Israel's justification for its actions are that of self defence: it has nothing to do with the fight against extremism.

I think it's fairly obvious, the role that Israel plays in the fight against Islamism. The Islamist doctrine says that it is at war with the West and Israel is at the forefront of that war. The Islamist ideology wants to create an ummah, right across the Middle East and it does not believe that there should be a Jewish presence on what they deem to be Muslim land. They abhor the fact that there is a Jewish state in that region and they are doing everything they possibly can to eliminate it. They make no secret of that fact either, you only have to read up on any public statements that have been made by members of the many Islamic terrorist groups over the years, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda or even the Iranian government. They are all quite open about their intentions to wipe the "apes and pigs" from the face of the Earth.

Israel epitomises the fight against Islamic extremism and that is one of the many reasons why I wholeheartedly support the state of Israel.

I don't understand how the idea of self defence is incompatible with fighting Islamic extremism. It's Islamist groups who are firing the rockets constantly into Israel and waging a war against them so Israel is responding to those threats by defending itself. The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.

[hibsbollah]

Falkirk; your ability to condense the issue to a good vs evil battle akin to a Star Wars movie is just laughable. You clearly have no understanding of the wider issue of radical Islam, which is ironic, since youre the only religious fundamentalist posting on this messageboard.


I havent followed every development in the current hostilities, partly because its so poorly reported on and partly because i dont always have the time. But heres an idea; if you think something is worthy of wider attention, if its a Hamas or Israeli 'atrocity', why dont YOU post about it instead of bleating about alleged double standards on other peoples behalf?

And if Hamas have been doing what you alleged, its hardly unusual behaviour for a community at war to reserve special brutality for spies and collaborators. Same thing happens in every era, all over the world, whether its a burning tire round the neck in Soweto in the 80s or shaving the heads of collaborators in post Nazi occupied Holland in 1945. Its a nasty business, war under occupation.

[LeighLoyal]

Falkirk; your ability to condense the issue to a good vs evil battle akin to a Star Wars movie is just laughable. You clearly have no understanding of the wider issue of radical Islam, which is ironic, since youre the only religious fundamentalist posting on this messageboard.


I havent followed every development in the current hostilities, partly because its so poorly reported on and partly because i dont always have the time. But heres an idea; if you think something is worthy of wider attention, if its a Hamas or Israeli 'atrocity', why dont YOU post about it instead of bleating about alleged double standards on other peoples behalf?

And if Hamas have been doing what you alleged, its hardly unusual behaviour for a community at war to reserve special brutality for spies and collaborators. Same thing happens in every era, all over the world, whether its a burning tire round the neck in Soweto in the 80s or shaving the heads of collaborators in post Nazi occupied Holland in 1945. Its a nasty business, war under occupation.

That is a cop out. You make excuses when the bloody hand on the gun is the one you support. What you're basically saying is it's okay for Hamas to summarily execute anyone within its territory it doesn't like because of the historically debateable "occupation". Utter tripe. And burning a tyre around someone's neck is not acceptable behaviour whatever the politics.


PS
Nice work Falkirkhibbie :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

That is a cop out. You make excuses when the bloody hand on the gun is the one you support. What you're basically saying is it's okay for Hamas to summarily execute anyone within its territory it doesn't like because of the historically debateable "occupation". Utter tripe. And burning a tyre around someone's neck is not acceptable behaviour whatever the politics.


PS
Nice work Falkirkhibbie :greengrin

Im 'basically saying' nothing of the sort. Putting words in my mouth doesnt hide your lack of a credible argument.

[LeighLoyal]

Im 'basically saying' nothing of the sort. Putting words in my mouth doesnt hide your lack of a credible argument.




Where's your condemnaton of Hamas's summary exectution of its own people without trial then? Put it down in black and white if you can manage it, or be rightfully labelled a terrorist group sympathiser.

[hibsbollah]

Where's your condemnaton of Hamas's summary exectution of its own people without trial then? Put it down in black and white if you can manage it, or be rightfully labelled a terrorist group sympathiser.

Ive read your odious posts before, which tell me all i need to know about your prejudices on this subject. I dont really consider you someone theres much point debating with, therefore I really dont care what you label me as. I still havent seen a link that i could comment on in relation to what Hamas did or didnt do after yesterdays ceasefire.

[LeighLoyal]

Ive read your odious posts before, which tell me all i need to know about your prejudices on this subject. I dont really consider you someone theres much point debating with, therefore I really dont care what you label me as. I still havent seen a link that i could comment on in relation to what Hamas did or didnt do after yesterdays ceasefire.



If the cap fits wear it! You refuse to condemn Hamas's supposed political murder of its own people while adopting the moral high ground on Israel's right to self defense. Your hypcorisy is there for all to see. No doubt you will equally approve of your buddy Mohammed Morsi's adoption of sweeping dictatorial powers in Egypt? I suspect what is really odious to you is freedom. Do you need a link to comment on that also? LOL.

[VickMackie]

Ive read your odious posts before, which tell me all i need to know about your prejudices on this subject. I dont really consider you someone theres much point debating with, therefore I really dont care what you label me as. I still havent seen a link that i could comment on in relation to what Hamas did or didnt do after yesterdays ceasefire.

I can PM you a link as its not suitable for a family board but the instructions are on my earlier post.

[Beefster]

And if Hamas have been doing what you alleged, its hardly unusual behaviour for a community at war to reserve special brutality for spies and collaborators. Same thing happens in every era, all over the world, whether its a burning tire round the neck in Soweto in the 80s or shaving the heads of collaborators in post Nazi occupied Holland in 1945. Its a nasty business, war under occupation.

I took Falkirk's main point on that to be that Hamas is executing untried Palestinians based on suspicion/accusations/gossip/maliciousnessl. It's not a new thing for authoritarian regimes to do though.

[VickMackie]

I've sent the link. There's actually two videos on the first link.

[Mon Dieu4]

There are ********s on both sides and it really is a chicken and egg theory, but if you treat people like crap, keep them behind walls, bulldoze their houses they are going to get mighty peeved and if they don't have an actual army to go toe to toe with the enemy they will use guerilla tactics and pot shots, not saying its right but its what happens

im open either way but lean towards the Israel are a bunch of bullies, I've been living in my house a long time and if the previous land owner turned up and kicked me out id boot his baws

Does sound to me that there are more fundamentalists in Falkirk than Gaza though

[Big Ed]

I think it's fairly obvious, the role that Israel plays in the fight against Islamism. The Islamist doctrine says that it is at war with the West and Israel is at the forefront of that war. The Islamist ideology wants to create an ummah, right across the Middle East and it does not believe that there should be a Jewish presence on what they deem to be Muslim land. They abhor the fact that there is a Jewish state in that region and they are doing everything they possibly can to eliminate it. They make no secret of that fact either, you only have to read up on any public statements that have been made by members of the many Islamic terrorist groups over the years, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda or even the Iranian government. They are all quite open about their intentions to wipe the "apes and pigs" from the face of the Earth.

Israel epitomises the fight against Islamic extremism and that is one of the many reasons why I wholeheartedly support the state of Israel.

I don't understand how the idea of self defence is incompatible with fighting Islamic extremism. It's Islamist groups who are firing the rockets constantly into Israel and waging a war against them so Israel is responding to those threats by defending itself. The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.

You've gone to some trouble to articulate exactly why you dislike Islamic fundamentalism: for what it's worth: I don't like it either. Unfortunately your lengthy reply hasn't answered my question.

If Israel is the epitome of anti Islamic fundamentalism as you say, why aren't their troops fighting the epitome of fundamental extremists: the Taliban?

[Betty Boop]

If the cap fits wear it! You refuse to condemn Hamas's supposed political murder of its own people while adopting the moral high ground on Israel's right to self defense. Your hypcorisy is there for all to see. No doubt you will equally approve of your buddy Mohammed Morsi's adoption of sweeping dictatorial powers in Egypt? I suspect what is really odious to you is freedom. Do you need a link to comment on that also? LOL.


Ha, I presume you will be first to condemn Israel's assassination policy, carried out in heavily populated areas, where innocent bystanders are also taken out. :aok:

[hibsbollah]

I took Falkirk's main point on that to be that Hamas is executing untried Palestinians based on suspicion/accusations/gossip/maliciousnessl. It's not a new thing for authoritarian regimes to do though.

See, I didnt. I saw it as just more tiresome 'See! Evil muslims!' carry on from the usual suspects. When its actually a reminder of the dark side of human nature, and regardless of the kind of regime you live under...

[Betty Boop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akN_2kWZXnU

Well said the taxi driver ! (contains a bit of bad language)

[LiverpoolHibs]

Oh God, all of those old Sisyphean feelings just come flooding back. Although reading FalkirkHibee's posts has always felt a bit like having my internal organs torn out, so maybe Prometheus is the more apt comparison.


I note that a ceasefire was agreed on Wednesday which will see a temporary calm in the region. However even after the ceasefire had taken effect, Israel had to contend with rockets coming in from Gaza, but they did not respond.

You would be forgiven if you didn't know anything about this though as Israel failing to respond to provocative rocket fire doesn't seem to be deemed very newsworthy by the mainstream news channels...

Not much mention of it on here either!

Yeah, those mainstream news channels and their anti-Israel agenda. Do you think it's easy to enforce a ceasefire in an area which is populated by numerous disparate militant groups? The suggestion you make, of course, is that these are Hamas/al-Qassam rockets. But there's no evidence that they are, is there?

Do you know who Anwar Qudai is, FH? He was shot in the head and killed yesterday by live fire from the IDF while 15-20 people were wounded during a protest at the buffer zone in Khan Younis.

Either you don't care about that because it's just another Palestinian death and their lives aren't important or you haven't heard about it. Or both. I think it's probably both.


Something else which hasn't had much mention on here either is the way that Hamas has dealt with their own people, who have been accused of being spies for Israel. No questions asked, no legal representation, no trial and no discussion.

They were simply dragged out into the streets and publicly shot in the head and their bodies were then dragged through the streets as a warning to everyone else.

It's funny that we've got many people on this forum who can't wait to give us their liberal, human rights speech every time we've got any debate on here about a controversial issue and yet when we've got an example here of a clear and flagrant abuse of human rights occurring in Gaza that doesn't involve Israel, they are nowhere to be found.

Oh, hang on, no. You care about Palestinian lives in situations like this.

Hamid Abu Daqqa shot dead whilst playing football at the age of 13, the slaughtered al-Dalou family, any of the other 19 children who have had their lives ended as a result of Israeli bombardment - nothing. But an opportunity to denounce those nasty Islamists shouldn't be missed, eh?

The Hamas leadership has condemned the killings and started an investigation, not that you'll care.


I think you'll find that it was, which is at the centre of the whole conflict.

The land of Israel has existed for thousands of years, as a land for the Jewish people. Over the centuries they have been continually dispersed from that land and been spread all around the world. It was only in 1948 that they were finally brought back to that land and given back their own nation.

Clearly there's a lot of people who are opposed to a Jewish state being present in the Middle East and that's the position we're in at the moment. There may be a ceasefire at the moment but the situation will continue to get worse.

As for the Arab Spring being taken to Palestine, I really don't get that point at all. The Arab Spring has seen uprisings in Muslim nations where the people in those countries were controlled by authoritarian, largely secular dictators who did not allow a proper democratic process to take place. The Palestinians had a free vote in 2006 and they overwhelmingly voted for Hamas, who are still the ruling party in Gaza to this day.

I'm really struggling to understand that comment to be honest.

Would you like to explain in what sense or under what principle some people having lived in a place at one point or another is something upon which exclusive modern nation states should be founded? Especially when the founding of such states requires the dispossession of another people who have lived on and worked that land for centuries. Presumably you consider the Australian or American states to be as illegitimate as a Palestinian state would be.

You conflate two very different things. Yes, there are a lot of people who oppose the idea of a Jewish state in the Middle East, there are considerably less people who oppose the idea of a state for Jews in the Middle East.


I think it's fairly obvious, the role that Israel plays in the fight against Islamism. The Islamist doctrine says that it is at war with the West and Israel is at the forefront of that war. The Islamist ideology wants to create an ummah, right across the Middle East and it does not believe that there should be a Jewish presence on what they deem to be Muslim land. They abhor the fact that there is a Jewish state in that region and they are doing everything they possibly can to eliminate it. They make no secret of that fact either, you only have to read up on any public statements that have been made by members of the many Islamic terrorist groups over the years, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda or even the Iranian government. They are all quite open about their intentions to wipe the "apes and pigs" from the face of the Earth.

Israel epitomises the fight against Islamic extremism and that is one of the many reasons why I wholeheartedly support the state of Israel.

I don't understand how the idea of self defence is incompatible with fighting Islamic extremism. It's Islamist groups who are firing the rockets constantly into Israel and waging a war against them so Israel is responding to those threats by defending itself. The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.

There is no such thing as 'the Islamist doctrine', I've tried to tell you this before but you don't seem to be interested. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about on this subject but that, apparently, puts no brake whatsoever on your desire to argue and proselytise about it. You have no interest in reason, no interest in fact and no interest in peace.

I've also told you that, given your beliefs, you are in no position to accuse others of anti-Semitism. Apparently this needs reiteration. You have stated in the past that your support of Israel is based in your Christian Zionism and belief in dispensationalism. The doctrine/prophecy states that, come the rapture two-thirds of the Jews in the Holy Land will be destroyed and the remaining third will be converted to Christianity. Most strands of Islamism, as I've told you before, are far more relaxed about a continued Jewish community in the Holy Land than you and your insane, dangerous millenarian chums are.

Yet you, who believes in a doctrine that is inherently anti-Semitic, have the gall to repeatedly denounce the anti-Semitism that exists in some strains of Islamism in the service of the worst, most destructive elements of Israeli politics and society. You should be utterly ashamed, but you won't be.

[Sylar]

I don't necessarily have an opinion either way here but I enjoy reading both halves putting their points/arguments across.

LiverpoolHibs: I particularly enjoy reading your posts. I don't necessarily agree 100% with your politics but your ability to put forward a clear, well reasoned and well articulated discussion on something you're clearly passionate about is quite refreshing :agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

1, We all know the answer - A two state solution based upon mutual recognition. However, getting there is so much easier said than done. It will happen eventually, though sadly many thousands ( mainly Palestinians ) will die in the process.

2, It isn't a case of both sides being as bad as each other. Israel has been in breach of international law for 45 years in relation to illegal occupation, yet even today ( 30/11/12 ) it has announced the building of 3000 homes on land that is declared illegally occupied under international law. More Palestinian children have died in the latest Israeli air strikes in the past two weeks than have been killed in Israel in the past twenty years. The constant unselective repression by the strong of the weak cannot be allowed to continue.

3, Israel is a nuclear power that controls the economies of the occupied territories and whose population is free to work and travel without restriction, unlike those in Gaza, the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Meanwhile Gaza remains the most densely populated place on earth, rife with poverty. When discussing terrorism, Israel should also discuss the meaning of a terrorist state. Having elected Palestinian politicians locked up in Israeli jails is something Israel would never tolerate if the situation were reversed.

4, Not for a moment do I condone suicide bombings by Palestinians in Israel, against soldiers or civilians, but the major onus is upon the nuclear power to de-escalate this seventy year old fued and to acknowledge the two state future. More illegal settlements and evermore militarism isn't sustainable. America must finally appraoch the conflict in the region even-handedly. Human rights must be respected for every single person in the region. A war can only be resolved by removing the causes of the war.

[RyeSloan]

So the latest 'war' seems to be over...Interesting to note that Israel seems to have been reasonably 'happy' to negotiate with Hamas (although not in the same room!) and from the limited amount I have seen seem to have given reasonably good terms in the ceasefire.

I'm not sure of either sides motive but considering the relative exile of Abbas it would seem the rocket diplomacy of Hamas has gained Israels attention and driven both sides to make some concessions. I do wonder that Israel is following a bit of a divide and conquer approach here and sees a relatively successful Gaza (Hamas certainly seem to know how to trade as well as fight!) as a good counter weight to the west bank and one that might just keep the Palastinians facing off to each other rather than presenting a united front against Israel.

I alos wonder if a non permanent solution is actually ideal for Hamas and that they have little appetite for anything else but ongoing piecemeal agreements that protects their fiefdom in Gaza.

[Betty Boop]

Two years on, and the Palestinians in Gaza are once more being bombarded from the air, land and sea. 135 Palestinians killed since Tuesday.

The Israeli practice of roof knocking http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604511

[hibsbollah]

Two years on, and the Palestinians in Gaza are once more being bombarded from the air, land and sea. 135 Palestinians killed since Tuesday.

The Israeli practice of roof knocking http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604511
I
After all these years, I'm surprised it even makes the news anymore. What would be considered as insane behaviour by any other civilised nation is somehow excused by the 'international community' on the absurd pretext of 'internal security'. Alice down the rabbithole.

[Sir David Gray]

Two years on, and the Palestinians in Gaza are once more being bombarded from the air, land and sea. 135 Palestinians killed since Tuesday.

The Israeli practice of roof knocking http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604511

Oh good, it's been a while since we last had an Israel bashing thread on here. I suppose it's long overdue.

You make no mention of the three Israeli teenagers kidnapped and murdered by Palestinian terrorists a few weeks ago, nor do you make any reference to the hundreds of rockets, which are reining down on Israel on a daily basis at the moment.

Selective reporting as ever.

[Betty Boop]

Oh good, it's been a while since we last had an Israel bashing thread on here. I suppose it's long overdue.

You make no mention of the three Israeli teenagers kidnapped and murdered by Palestinian terrorists a few weeks ago, nor do you make any reference to the hundreds of rockets, which are reining down on Israel on a daily basis at the moment.

Selective reporting as ever.


And we're off . Are you FalkirkHibby in disguise ?

[hibsbollah]

And we're off . Are you FalkirkHibby in disguise ?

The artist formerly known as changed his name a while ago.

On this subject I question even bothering to challenge the assumptions people make. The IDF could bomb an entire district of pensioners on the pretext of falsely claiming disability benefits and it would be ok. You'll never get anywhere on a thread like this.

[Sylar]

And we're off . Are you FalkirkHibby in disguise ?

I don't really 'side' with either Israel or Palestine in this grand old debate (as to be quite honest, I don't fully understand the nuances of the conflict) but isn't it accurate that the recent 'ceasefire' was indeed broken by the capture and murder of said aforementioned Israeli teenagers?

I haven't been following it in microscopic detail but that was indeed my understanding as the catalyst of the recent escalation in events.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I also have no "favourites" in this but find it strange that the news basically shows where the bombs have landed in Gaza and all the grief that goes with it. Then says and shows rockets heading towards Israel. I cannot believe that these bombs do not cause a few "collateral " casualties. Why are they not shown? In the interests of fairness this should be known. As I said I have no favourites but my political leanings would have me lean towards Gaza.

[speedy_gonzales]

I also have no "favourites" in this but find it strange that the news basically shows where the bombs have landed in Gaza and all the grief that goes with it. Then says and shows rockets heading towards Israel. I cannot believe that these bombs do not cause a few "collateral " casualties. Why are they not shown? In the interests of fairness this should be known. As I said I have no favourites but my political leanings would have me lean towards Gaza.
Over in Florida just now, the news here said there have been no Israeli deaths from the rockets fired over from Gaza, as opposed to over 130 reported deaths in the other direction,,,,,,,might explain the apparent jaundiced reporting.

[hibsbollah]

I also have no "favourites" in this but find it strange that the news basically shows where the bombs have landed in Gaza and all the grief that goes with it. Then says and shows rockets heading towards Israel. I cannot believe that these bombs do not cause a few "collateral " casualties. Why are they not shown? In the interests of fairness this should be known. As I said I have no favourites but my political leanings would have me lean towards Gaza.

I think you can safely assume that the rockets fired towards israeli settlements on occupied land, as usual, hit nobody and caused zero Israeli deaths. We'd be hearing all about it if they did.

The killing of the three Israeli teenagers, and the apparent tit for tat burning alive of a Palestinian teenager the next day, would be considered a criminal act in any normal legitimate legislature, and the result would be an investigation into who the guilty parties might be. Israel defining this as 'breaking the ceasefire' which Sylar refers to is just lunacy. A tiny sense of proportionality would tell Netanyahu that pounding densely populated civilian areas and the killing of 150 innocent people is not a normal response to a horrible murder.

[Betty Boop]

I don't really 'side' with either Israel or Palestine in this grand old debate (as to be quite honest, I don't fully understand the nuances of the conflict) but isn't it accurate that the recent 'ceasefire' was indeed broken by the capture and murder of said aforementioned Israeli teenagers?

I haven't been following it in microscopic detail but that was indeed my understanding as the catalyst of the recent escalation in events.

The capture and murder of the three teenagers was awful, as was the revenge killing of the Palestinian teenager, who was bundled into a car forced to drink petrol and burned alive, allegedly by a Rabbi and his two sons. Why are the MSM not referring to them, as Israeli terrorists ? Tensions were already running higher than usual, when Fatah and Hamas formed a Unity Government, which the Israelis refuse to accept. Anyway the background to the latest escalation can be seen here http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39043.htm

[RyeSloan]

Depressingly predictable cycle of violence.

Israel really has no desire for peace in any shape and form but to be honest I doubt the Palestinian leadership has either...

As for the international community...toothless and will wait for a few hundred more deaths before putting any squeeze on. Pathetic.

[over the line]

So Paul Gascoigne has upset the Israelis now, will he never learn!?!? He has been doing so well after the embarrassing flute playing and Raul Moat incidents........... Oh hang on, I think I've misread this one!?!?!? ;)

[Sylar]

The capture and murder of the three teenagers was awful, as was the revenge killing of the Palestinian teenager, who was bundled into a car forced to drink petrol and burned alive, allegedly by a Rabbi and his two sons. Why are the MSM not referring to them, as Israeli terrorists ? Tensions were already running higher than usual, when Fatah and Hamas formed a Unity Government, which the Israelis refuse to accept. Anyway the background to the latest escalation can be seen here http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39043.htm

Thanks for the link BB.

As I said, no real axe to grind in this debate so I appreciate the sources/information.

I don't disagree - the capture, torture and execution of the Palestinian teenager as 'retribution' and the resulting fallout is sadly bot predictable and unpalatable.

This latest bombardment by Israeli forces is more intense than anything I can recall with thousands fleeing for their lives in northern Gaza, though as I said, it's not something I follow overly closely!

[Betty Boop]

Anybody watch Panorama-Isis Terror in Iraq ? Desperate situation developing in Iraq, which has severe implications, for the wider region. This group make 'Al Qaeda look moderate.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

I see the brave Israelis fired off a missle from a navy vessel onto a beach on Gaza today causing panic and fear in a very crowded area full of kids.

Tells you a lot.

[Sylar]

'Humanitarian ceasefire' disrupted by Palestinian mortar fire this morning.

[Betty Boop]

I see the brave Israelis fired off a missle from a navy vessel onto a beach on Gaza today causing panic and fear in a very crowded area full of kids.

Tells you a lot.

Sure does tell you a lot. Four wee boys killed, two aged 10, and a nine and eleven year old from the same family. They were playing on the beach.

[Sylar]

Sure does tell you a lot. Four wee boys killed, two aged 10, and a nine and eleven year old from the same family. They were playing on the beach.

According to the BBC this morning, 227 Palestinians (mostly civilian) have died since 8th July, whereas militant attacks from Gaza have killed 1 Israeli.

Staggering!

[stoneyburn hibs]

Sure does tell you a lot. Four wee boys killed, two aged 10, and a nine and eleven year old from the same family. They were playing on the beach.

Put the boot on the other foot, what if Hamas had all the weaponry ? It would be the same results but in Israel. It tells you nothing but how sad a situation it is.

[Hibrandenburg]

Put the boot on the other foot, what if Hamas had all the weaponry ? It would be the same results but in Israel. It tells you nothing but how sad a situation it is.

:agree:
This is probably the long and short of it.

[speedy_gonzales]

Put the boot on the other foot, what if Hamas had all the weaponry ? It would be the same results but in Israel. It tells you nothing but how sad a situation it is.
Not wishing to come across as an anti-semite, but I reckon there would be greater condemnation from the global community if this happened. Interesting stat on local Florida radio this morning, although making up only 0.2% of the world's population, 20% of Nobel prize winners have been Jewish, on the face of it a successful, intellectual and influential group of peoples. Nothing like a bit of stereotyping ;-)

[hibsbollah]

http://www.popularresistance.org/understand-israeli-palestinian-apartheid-in-11-images/

Obviously a partial site, but the facts are incontrovertible. The land ownership since 1922 and water distribution is particularly interesting.

[Betty Boop]

Put the boot on the other foot, what if Hamas had all the weaponry ? It would be the same results but in Israel. It tells you nothing but how sad a situation it is.

Speak for yourself, it tells me about the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

[Betty Boop]

Nuttyahu orders a ground offensive on Gaza.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-launches-gaza-ground-invasion-2014717192054899505.html

[JimBHibees]

Israel really are the very epitome of where they came from originally. The fact they get away with ritualistic war crimes while countries like our own and the US say nothing is totally shameful and harbours the deep resentment which ends with terrorists being fostered in our own country.

[hibsbollah]

Massive land invasion of Gaza supported by tanks and air strikes being reported tonight.

Quentin Somerville on the BBC came very close to justifying Israels action. The IDF must love the way this is all being reported.

[Suburban Hibby]

Massive land invasion of Gaza supported by tanks and air strikes being reported tonight.

Quentin Somerville on the BBC came very close to justifying Israels action. The IDF must love the way this is all being reported.

He will be sacked in the morning- can't have the taxpayer funded bbc showing any view that must justify Israeli action in anything- BBC possibly the most bias reporters of all when it comes to all things anti Israel.

[hibsbollah]

He will be sacked in the morning- can't have the taxpayer funded bbc showing any view that must justify Israeli action in anything- BBC possibly the most bias reporters of all when it comes to all things anti Israel.

I dont think you watch/listen to it much then.

[JimBHibees]

I dont think you watch/listen to it much then.

Agree very pro. BBC's standards generally are pretty shameful.

[Betty Boop]

He will be sacked in the morning- can't have the taxpayer funded bbc showing any view that must justify Israeli action in anything- BBC possibly the most bias reporters of all when it comes to all things anti Israel.


Really ? The BBC who refused to broadcast the Gaza appeal, and then showed the pitiful episode of Panorama, where they presented carefully edited IDF footage of the Mavi Marmara attack, presenting it as 'irrefutable evidence'. Anti-Israel nae bother!

[Betty Boop]

Hi khib ! :greengrin

[khib70]

Hi khib ! :greengrin
Hi yourself:greengrin

Haven't posted much on .net in the last few months as it's all been too depressing on the football front.

I'm keeping out of this one. I'm off on my holidays tomorrow and much as I enjoy a good debate, I don't want to spend the week on Hibs.net! I think we all know where we stand on this one:wink:

Hope you're well. The only people who really piss me off are people who don't give a damn either way.

[Bristolhibby]

Israel really are the very epitome of where they came from originally. The fact they get away with ritualistic war crimes while countries like our own and the US say nothing is totally shameful and harbours the deep resentment which ends with terrorists being fostered in our own country.

Not only says nothing, but supports them.

Cheers Dave

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-07-09/prime-minister-uk-staunchly-supports-israel/

J

[Betty Boop]

Hi yourself:greengrin

Haven't posted much on .net in the last few months as it's all been too depressing on the football front.

I'm keeping out of this one. I'm off on my holidays tomorrow and much as I enjoy a good debate, I don't want to spend the week on Hibs.net! I think we all know where we stand on this one:wink:

Hope you're well. The only people who really piss me off are people who don't give a damn either way.

I've noticed, knew you'd be reading this thread tho. Have a great holiday ! Liverpoolhibs where are you ? :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Interesting take on the medias coverage of the "conflict" (aka genocide).

http://mic.com/articles/93660/jon-stewart-rips-apart-how-the-media-covers-the-violence-in-gaza?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

[hibsbollah]

Interesting take on the medias coverage of the "conflict" (aka genocide).

http://mic.com/articles/93660/jon-stewart-rips-apart-how-the-media-covers-the-violence-in-gaza?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

It perfectly encapsulates the situation. A desire to be even handed when theres no equivalency between the two sides.

I had to laugh last night when Somerville was interviewing an Israeli settler on illegally gained land whos house had been 'hit' by a Hamas 'rocket'. It looked as if a bit of pebble dash had come loose, the offending shrapnel or whatever it was would have struggled to kill a rabbit. A bit scary, OK. Equivalent to the Gaza slaughter of innocent kids? Naw.

Amnesty International renewing calls for the UK to stop funding the Israeli military. We sold them £6.3 million of unspecified weaponry last year.

[Future17]

It perfectly encapsulates the situation. A desire to be even handed when theres no equivalency between the two sides.

I had to laugh last night when Somerville was interviewing an Israeli settler on illegally gained land whos house had been 'hit' by a Hamas 'rocket'. It looked as if a bit of pebble dash had come loose, the offending shrapnel or whatever it was would have struggled to kill a rabbit. A bit scary, OK. Equivalent to the Gaza slaughter of innocent kids? Naw.

Amnesty International renewing calls for the UK to stop funding the Israeli military. We sold them £6.3 million of unspecified weaponry last year.

How do we fund them? Never heard this before? :confused:

[hibsbollah]

How do we fund them? Never heard this before? :confused:


https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/gaza-israel-stop-arms?from=issues

£6.3million in UK-Israel arms sales last year, according to AI. This link includes an option to email the UK Govt.


Its all small fry compared to Israels arms sales, though, $7.5 BILLION. Truly a global military superpower, absolutely laughable that the puny Palestinian 'state' can be considered their equal in a 'war'.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.537501#!

[Phil D. Rolls]

It perfectly encapsulates the situation. A desire to be even handed when theres no equivalency between the two sides.

I had to laugh last night when Somerville was interviewing an Israeli settler on illegally gained land whos house had been 'hit' by a Hamas 'rocket'. It looked as if a bit of pebble dash had come loose, the offending shrapnel or whatever it was would have struggled to kill a rabbit. A bit scary, OK. Equivalent to the Gaza slaughter of innocent kids? Naw.

Amnesty International renewing calls for the UK to stop funding the Israeli military. We sold them £6.3 million of unspecified weaponry last year.

Why does the media feel the need to be even handed to Israel, when they distort every other conflict to fit the agenda of their paymasters? I'm starting to believe claims that the media and entertainment industries are dominated by a Zionist cabal - the evidence is stacking up.

[Future17]

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/gaza-israel-stop-arms?from=issues

£6.3million in UK-Israel arms sales last year, according to AI. This link includes an option to email the UK Govt.


Its all small fry compared to Israels arms sales, though, $7.5 BILLION. Truly a global military superpower, absolutely laughable that the puny Palestinian 'state' can be considered their equal in a 'war'.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.537501#!

Thanks for that, but is that not arming them, rather than funding them? I'm not trying to be obtuse, your comment just took me a bit by surprise.

[hibsbollah]

Thanks for that, but is that not arming them, rather than funding them? I'm not trying to be obtuse, your comment just took me a bit by surprise.

Apologies. 'Stock' instead of 'fund' would have been more accurate. Still an unfortunate policy imo.

[CropleyWasGod]

Apologies. 'Stock' instead of 'fund' would have been more accurate. Still an unfortunate policy imo.

Indeed.

On one hand the West is criticising Putin for backing the ****bags who shot down the Malaysian plane, whilst on the other.......:cb

[Hibernia Na Eir]

belt Jerusalem.
Nuff said!

[Betty Boop]

Why does the media feel the need to be even handed to Israel, when they distort every other conflict to fit the agenda of their paymasters? I'm starting to believe claims that the media and entertainment industries are dominated by a Zionist cabal - the evidence is stacking up.

Yea NBC News has removed veteran war correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin from Gaza, after he witnessed and reported on, the killing of the four wee souls playing football on the beach.
The initial report http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/4-palestinian-kids-killed-in-front-of-reporters.html?mid=facebook_dailyintelligencer

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/17/nbc-removes-ayman-mohyeldin-gaza-coverage-witnesses-israeli-beach-killing-four-boys/

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Only two Israeli soldiers lost in recent days?
time for Hamas to ramp it up.
{}

[JimBHibees]

It perfectly encapsulates the situation. A desire to be even handed when theres no equivalency between the two sides.

I had to laugh last night when Somerville was interviewing an Israeli settler on illegally gained land whos house had been 'hit' by a Hamas 'rocket'. It looked as if a bit of pebble dash had come loose, the offending shrapnel or whatever it was would have struggled to kill a rabbit. A bit scary, OK. Equivalent to the Gaza slaughter of innocent kids? Naw.

Amnesty International renewing calls for the UK to stop funding the Israeli military. We sold them £6.3 million of unspecified weaponry last year.

BBC coverage is appalling and getting worse. Israel are war criminals simple as and IMO have used the Ukraine crash to pile in when the West aren't interested. Shameful.

[Betty Boop]

Only two Israeli soldiers lost in recent days?
time for Hamas to ramp it up.
{}


I'd say they're doing pretty well, despite the bombardment by land, sea and air, their tiny fighting force has resulted in a standoff, with one of the mightiest armies in the world.

[Future17]

Apologies. 'Stock' instead of 'fund' would have been more accurate. Still an unfortunate policy imo.

I agree. :agree:


belt Jerusalem.
Nuff said!


Only two Israeli soldiers lost in recent days?
time for Hamas to ramp it up.
{}


good.
and I sincerely hope more fat noses are plundered by the good P's in the coming days/months.

More than a bit inappropriate for a public forum. Maybe keep your racism and hatred to yourself next time?

[Sir David Gray]

'Humanitarian ceasefire' disrupted by Palestinian mortar fire this morning.

Of course it was.

You're talking here about an organisation in Hamas, and its other smaller allies in the Palestinian territories, which is fundamentally opposed to the very existence of the Jewish state of Israel.

They will never rest until the whole area is an Islamic state, in much the same way as ISIS is trying to achieve just now in Syria and Iraq.

It's the way in which Islamic fundamentalists work, the world over.

For other examples, just look at al-Shabaab's activities in Kenya and Somalia and Boko Haram in northern Nigeria.

If you don't subscribe to their form of Islam then you're regarded as the enemy and they will do everything they can to wipe you out.

Despite what some on here will probably have you believe, I do not support every single thing that Israel does militarily, but when you're under an almost constant threat of rocket attacks from people who are quite open about the fact that they do not recognise your country's right to exist then I would suggest that your response to that needs to be fairly strong.

[Sir David Gray]

According to the BBC this morning, 227 Palestinians (mostly civilian) have died since 8th July, whereas militant attacks from Gaza have killed 1 Israeli.

Staggering!

If it wasn't for Israel's Iron Dome defence system, that death toll would almost certainly be significantly higher. Most of the rockets never reach their intended target as they are intercepted in mid-air and blown apart.

Israel is under a constant threat from these rocket attacks on a daily basis. No country on Earth would tolerate that.

Can you imagine the UK putting up with such attacks from Ireland or France?

[speedy_gonzales]

Can you imagine the UK putting up with such attacks from Ireland or France?
I very much doubt any country or state would, however when you add the twist that those Irish or French were forcibly removed from the UK where they had lived for generations then squeezed into an ever decreasing area of land with no self governed borders,
I reckon we'd be under similar attacks.

[ballengeich]

Of course it was.

You're talking here about an organisation in Hamas, and its other smaller allies in the Palestinian territories, which is fundamentally opposed to the very existence of the Jewish state of Israel.

If you don't subscribe to their form of Islam then you're regarded as the enemy and they will do everything they can to wipe you out.



The nature of some of Israel's enemies seems to be ignored by the country's critics, who focus only on the excesses of Israel's reaction to attacks on it.

I've come to the conclusion that Hamas will actually be rather pleased by civilian casualties. They continually fire rockets into Israel knowing that minimal damage will be done and that Israel has the military capacity to inflict far greater harm in retaliation at any time. If they didn't carry out these attacks Israel would not undertake a military response and the people of Gaza would have a better chance of improving their lives and working for longer-term political ends.

When Israel is occasionally goaded into an excessive reaction, deaths of Hamas's fellow citizens provides useful propaganda for building Arab anti-semitism and Islamist intolerance. An organisation which genuinely cared about the people it claims to represent would act differently, but if they did so the longer-term prospects of peace and reconciliation would increase. Sadly there are people on both sides who don't want that - any resolution of the conflict has to be 100% on their own terms.

[Phil D. Rolls]

good.
and I sincerely hope more fat noses are plundered by the good P's in the coming days/months.

Anti Semitism is the card that Israel plays every time someone criticises their actions. Hateful remarks like that are out of order.

[Betty Boop]

The nature of some of Israel's enemies seems to be ignored by the country's critics, who focus only on the excesses of Israel's reaction to attacks on it.

I've come to the conclusion that Hamas will actually be rather pleased by civilian casualties. They continually fire rockets into Israel knowing that minimal damage will be done and that Israel has the military capacity to inflict far greater harm in retaliation at any time. If they didn't carry out these attacks Israel would not undertake a military response and the people of Gaza would have a better chance of improving their lives and working for longer-term political ends.

When Israel is occasionally goaded into an excessive reaction, deaths of Hamas's fellow citizens provides useful propaganda for building Arab anti-semitism and Islamist intolerance. An organisation which genuinely cared about the people it claims to represent would act differently, but if they did so the longer-term prospects of peace and reconciliation would increase. Sadly there are people on both sides who don't want that - any resolution of the conflict has to be 100% on their own terms.

Can you explain how the people of Gaza 'have a better chance of improving their lives' when Gaza has been under blockade since 2007 ?

[hibsbollah]

The nature of some of Israel's enemies seems to be ignored by the country's critics, who focus only on the excesses of Israel's reaction to attacks on it.

I've come to the conclusion that Hamas will actually be rather pleased by civilian casualties. They continually fire rockets into Israel knowing that minimal damage will be done and that Israel has the military capacity to inflict far greater harm in retaliation at any time. If they didn't carry out these attacks Israel would not undertake a military response and the people of Gaza would have a better chance of improving their lives and working for longer-term political ends.

When Israel is occasionally goaded into an excessive reaction, deaths of Hamas's fellow citizens provides useful propaganda for building Arab anti-semitism and Islamist intolerance. An organisation which genuinely cared about the people it claims to represent would act differently, but if they did so the longer-term prospects of peace and reconciliation would increase. Sadly there are people on both sides who don't want that - any resolution of the conflict has to be 100% on their own terms.

Naive in the extreme. Israel doesn't need to be 'goaded' into anything. A state of war suits it very well. Peace would compromise its policy of building on more and more illegally held Palestinian land, which is what all of this is really about.

[hibsbollah]

good.
and I sincerely hope more fat noses are plundered by the good P's in the coming days/months.

Your posts just get stupider and stupider, on every subject.

[ballengeich]

Can you explain how the people of Gaza 'have a better chance of improving their lives' when Gaza has been under blockade since 2007 ?

The blockade is intended to prevent the import of weapons which will be used for attacks on Gaza's neighbours. If this type of import ceases there will be no reason for a blockade and it can be lifted as Israel and Egypt become confident that doing so will not jeopardise their security.

[ballengeich]

Naive in the extreme. Israel doesn't need to be 'goaded' into anything. A state of war suits it very well. Peace would compromise its policy of building on more and more illegally held Palestinian land, which is what all of this is really about.

I stated that there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. You seem only to see them on one side of the divide.

[hibsbollah]

I stated that there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. You seem only to see them on one side of the divide.

Rubbish. You just misunderstand the conflict and think it can be understood on the basis of a battle of two equals. There are lots of people who benefit from war, on both sides. But Israel is the only impediment to peace. Hamas are an irrelevance to the causes of war as the old PLO/Fatah used to be. Stop the blockade, remove the wall, allow economic activity, implement the Two State Solution, joint sovereignty of Jerusalem. If Hamas are too corrupt or stupid to negotiate with, implement the changes yourself.

The lie that the Arab Israel conflict is impossible to solve is only spread by those who have no interest in solving it.

[hibsbollah]

I stated that there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. You seem only to see them on one side of the divide.

Rubbish. You just misunderstand the conflict and think it can be understood on the basis of a battle of two equals. There are lots of people who benefit from war, on both sides. But Israel is the only impediment to peace. Hamas are an irrelevance to the causes of war as the old PLO/Fatah used to be. Stop the blockade, remove the wall, allow economic activity, implement the Two State Solution, joint sovereignty of Jerusalem. If Hamas are too corrupt or stupid to negotiate with, implement the changes yourself.

The lie that the Arab Israel conflict is impossible to solve is only spread by those who have no interest in solving it.

[Betty Boop]

Rubbish. You just misunderstand the conflict and think it can be understood on the basis of a battle of two equals. There are lots of people who benefit from war, on both sides. But Israel is the only impediment to peace. Hamas are an irrelevance to the causes of war as the old PLO/Fatah used to be. Stop the blockade, remove the wall, allow economic activity, implement the Two State Solution, joint sovereignty of Jerusalem. If Hamas are too corrupt or stupid to negotiate with, implement the changes yourself.

The lie that the Arab Israel conflict is impossible to solve is only spread by those who have no interest in solving it.

Aint that the truth ! :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I stated that there are people on both sides who don't want to see peace. You seem only to see them on one side of the divide.

It's kind of hard to believe Israel wants peace when it has behaved the way it has towards the Palestinians. Forcing people to live in unsatisfactory conditions is surely a way to provoke rebellion?

[sidjames]

The one-state solution is hard because there is no viable, realistic version that both sides would accept. In theory, the two-state solution is great. But it poses some very difficult questions. Here are the four big ones and why they're so tough to solve. To be clear, these aren't abstract concepts but real, heavily debated issues that have sunk peace talks before:

*Both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital; it's also a center of Jewish and Muslim (and Christian) holy sites that are literally located physically on top of one another, in the antiquity-era walled Old City that is not at all well shaped to be divided into two countries. Making the division even tougher, Israeli communities have been building up more and more in and around the city.

*There's no clear agreement on where precisely to draw the borders, which roughly follow the armistice line of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, especially since hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers have built up suburban-style communities just on the Palestinian side of the line. This one is not actually impossible — Israel could give Palestine some land as part of "land swaps" in exchange for settler-occupied territory — but it's still hard. The more time goes on, the more settlements expand, the harder it becomes to create a viable Palestinian state.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF ALL MAY BE TIME: IT'S RUNNING OUT

Refugees:*This one is really hard. There are, officially, seven million Palestinian refugees, who are designated as such because their descendants fled or were expelled from what is today Israel; places like Ramla and Jaffa. Palestinians frequently ask for what they call the "right of return": permission to return to their land and live with full rights. That sounds like a no-brainer, but Israel's objection is that if they absorb seven million Palestinian returnees, then Jews will become a minority, which for the reasons explained above Israelis will never accept. There are ideas to work around the problem, like financial restitution, but no agreement on them.

*This is another big one. For Palestinians, security needs are simple: a sovereign Palestinian state. For Israelis, it's a bit more complicated: Israelis fear that an independent Palestine could turn hostile and ally with other Middle East states to launch the sort of invasion Israel barely survived in 1973. Maybe more plausibly, Israelis worry that Hamas would take over an independent West Bank and use it to launch attacks on Israelis, as they've done with Gaza. Any compromise would likely involve Palestinians giving up some sovereignty, for example promising permanent de-militarization or allowing an international peacekeeping force, and after years of feeling heavily abused by strong-handed Israeli forces, Palestinians are not eager about the idea of Israel having veto power over their sovereignty and security.

Those are all very difficult problems. But here's the thing: time is running out. The more that the conflict drags on, the more difficult it will be to solve any of these issues, much less all of them. That will make it harder and harder for Israel to justify keeping Gaza under blockade and the West Bank under occupation; eventually it will have to unilaterally withdraw, which the current leadership opposes, or it will have to annex the territories and become either an apartheid-style state that denies full rights to those new Palestinian citizens or abandon its Jewish state.

Meanwhile, extremism and apathy and distrust are rising on both sides. The violence of the conflict is becoming status quo, a regularly recurring event that is replacing the peace process itself as the way by which the conflict advances. It is making things worse for Israelis and Palestinians alike all the time, and unless they can break from the hatred and violence long enough to make peace, that will continue.

[hibsbollah]

Meanwhile, extremism and apathy and distrust are rising on both sides. The violence of the conflict is becoming status quo, a regularly recurring event that is replacing the peace process itself as the way by which the conflict advances. It is making things worse for Israelis and Palestinians alike all the time, and unless they can break from the hatred and violence long enough to make peace, that will continue.

Leaving aside a couple of glaring inaccuracies in your 'four big problems' analysis; (Most importantly, there IS in fact an overwhelming consensus as to where to redraw the boundaries, the entire international community has voted consistently and overwhelmingly for Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 boundaries. This is quite unequivocal, there are repeated UN resolutions calling for these borders to be respected and Israel to return land they acquired by force; US and Israel and occasionally UK are the only objectors.) You are right that the passing of time makes the resolution of this more difficult, but as the settlements go up thats very much in Israels interest. You also skirt over the illegal settlement building, the economic restrictions, control of movement, water supplies, and Israels nuclear arsenal as issues of contention.

But its the highlighted section if your post which has missed the point most spectacularly. It just isnt true that 'things are getting worse for both sides alike'. Thats ignoring the reality of whats happening on the ground and promulgating the myth that there are two equals at 'war' here. And it shows a wrongheaded kind of moral equivalency that allows the repetitive slaughter of one side by another every six years or so, as the dateline and OP of this thread makes depressingly obvious.

[Pretty Boy]

good.
and I sincerely hope more fat noses are plundered by the good P's in the coming days/months.

I'd ban you for that. Totally out of order.

I'm on holiday at the moment but hopefully another admin takes a strong line.

This had been a heated but respectful debate and, as usual, you show up your stupidity. Anti semitism and advocated killing, what a hero you are.

[sidjames]

The Hamas sets out from these general concepts which are consistent and in accordance with the rules of the universe, and gushes forth in the river of Fate in its confrontation and Jihad waging against the enemies, in defense of the Muslim human being, of Islamic Civilization and of the Islamic Holy Places, primarily the Blessed Aqsa Mosque. This, for the purpose of calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples as well as their governments, popular and official associations, to fear Allah in their attitude towards and dealings with Hamas, and to be, in accordance with Allah’s will, its supporters and partisans who extend assistance to it and provide it with reinforcement after reinforcement, until the Decree of Allah is fulfilled, the ranks are over-swollen, Jihad fighters join other Jihad fighters, and all this accumulation sets out from everywhere in the Islamic world, obeying the call of duty, and intoning “Come on, join Jihad!” This call will tear apart the clouds in the skies and it will continue to ring until liberation is completed, the invaders are vanquished and Allah’s victory sets in.*“Verily Allah helps one who helps Him. Lo! Allah is strong, Almighty.” Sura XXII (Pilgrimage), verse 40.

[sidjames]

I think all of the articles 36 in total I think should be read and considered before criticising my mild piece.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The only people who really piss me off are people who don't give a damn either way.

Why?

[sidjames]

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up*for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

It might be difficult to have a permanent solution with a group whose articles have your peoples annihilation as it's core value.

As I said reading the whole articles, tedious as much of it is tells you much of what you need to know. One Side of the tragic affair I know.

[Betty Boop]

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up*for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

It might be difficult to have a permanent solution with a group whose articles have your peoples annihilation as it's core value.

As I said reading the whole articles, tedious as much of it is tells you much of what you need to know. One Side of the tragic affair I know.

Will u be quoting any passages from the Torah or the bible ?

[sidjames]

Will u be quoting any passages from the Torah or the bible ?

That's not from any " holy book" . It is the stated aims of Hamas.

[hibsbollah]

That's not from any " holy book" . It is the stated aims of Hamas.

Im no fan of Hamas, they are a corrupt and toothless organisation, but there's nothing particularly shocking in that statenent. The state of Israel in its current racist, zionist form SHOULD be 'destroyed' and replaced with some kind of two state solution. Were the ANC pilloried for wanting to 'destroy' apartheid South Africa?

Hamas arent the story here. I doubt they'll even exist in five years time

[SanFranHibs]

And by that I mean why was it formed and more importantly how has it changed?

For 1900 years there was no place as Israel and in 1948 the state of Israel was formed not by an indigenous semitic people in Palestine but by western politicians who basically just threw the Palestinians overboard. Since then Israel has provoked, grabbed land and has grown from 100,000 in 1948 to a few million and keep expanding and penning in the Palestinians. No surprise Israel is in bed with America. It is the white European-American policy vis a vis the Native Americans that they are copying. Grab land, start some 'wars', engage in false peace treaties and then bring in more immigrants and let them grab more disputed lands and start the whole cycle again each time becoming more powerful and the people who have been there for centuries systematically removed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Im no fan of Hamas, they are a corrupt and toothless organisation, but there's nothing particularly shocking in that statenent. The state of Israel in its current racist, zionist form SHOULD be 'destroyed' and replaced with some kind of two state solution. Were the ANC pilloried for wanting to 'destroy' apartheid South Africa?

Hamas arent the story here. I doubt they'll even exist in five years time

Ask the current government what they got up to when they were students.

[Phil D. Rolls]

And by that I mean why was it formed and more importantly how has it changed?

For 1900 years there was no place as Israel and in 1948 the state of Israel was formed not by an indigenous semitic people in Palestine but by western politicians who basically just threw the Palestinians overboard. Since then Israel has provoked, grabbed land and has grown from 100,000 in 1948 to a few million and keep expanding and penning in the Palestinians. No surprise Israel is in bed with America. It is the white European-American policy vis a vis the Native Americans that they are copying. Grab land, start some 'wars', engage in false peace treaties and then bring in more immigrants and let them grab more disputed lands and start the whole cycle again each time becoming more powerful and the people who have been there for centuries systematically removed.

Think we've got a chicken and egg situation here. Consider the funding put into settlement of the New World by Portugese Jews, in the Netherlands, for example. This has been going on for a very long time.

[hibsbollah]

Ask the current government what they got up to when they were students.

True, but they keep quiet about it now, which is the point.

[Betty Boop]

Hundreds demonstrate in Ramallah calling for a Third Intifada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzIotCS24P4&feature=youtu.be

[Hibrandenburg]

The complete overkill shown by the Israelis is nothing short of a war crime and the silence from our leaders is deafening.

Imagine the outrage if the British government had used similar tactics in NI? I just don't get how the world can look on and do nothing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The complete overkill shown by the Israelis is nothing short of a war crime and the silence from our leaders is deafening.

Imagine the outrage if the British government had used similar tactics in NI? I just don't get how the world can look on and do nothing.

Because Israel is the dog, and the rest of the world is the tail?

[Betty Boop]

The one-state solution is hard because there is no viable, realistic version that both sides would accept. In theory, the two-state solution is great. But it poses some very difficult questions. Here are the four big ones and why they're so tough to solve. To be clear, these aren't abstract concepts but real, heavily debated issues that have sunk peace talks before:

*Both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital; it's also a center of Jewish and Muslim (and Christian) holy sites that are literally located physically on top of one another, in the antiquity-era walled Old City that is not at all well shaped to be divided into two countries. Making the division even tougher, Israeli communities have been building up more and more in and around the city.

*There's no clear agreement on where precisely to draw the borders, which roughly follow the armistice line of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, especially since hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers have built up suburban-style communities just on the Palestinian side of the line. This one is not actually impossible — Israel could give Palestine some land as part of "land swaps" in exchange for settler-occupied territory — but it's still hard. The more time goes on, the more settlements expand, the harder it becomes to create a viable Palestinian state.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF ALL MAY BE TIME: IT'S RUNNING OUT

Refugees:*This one is really hard. There are, officially, seven million Palestinian refugees, who are designated as such because their descendants fled or were expelled from what is today Israel; places like Ramla and Jaffa. Palestinians frequently ask for what they call the "right of return": permission to return to their land and live with full rights. That sounds like a no-brainer, but Israel's objection is that if they absorb seven million Palestinian returnees, then Jews will become a minority, which for the reasons explained above Israelis will never accept. There are ideas to work around the problem, like financial restitution, but no agreement on them.

*This is another big one. For Palestinians, security needs are simple: a sovereign Palestinian state. For Israelis, it's a bit more complicated: Israelis fear that an independent Palestine could turn hostile and ally with other Middle East states to launch the sort of invasion Israel barely survived in 1973. Maybe more plausibly, Israelis worry that Hamas would take over an independent West Bank and use it to launch attacks on Israelis, as they've done with Gaza. Any compromise would likely involve Palestinians giving up some sovereignty, for example promising permanent de-militarization or allowing an international peacekeeping force, and after years of feeling heavily abused by strong-handed Israeli forces, Palestinians are not eager about the idea of Israel having veto power over their sovereignty and security.

Those are all very difficult problems. But here's the thing: time is running out. The more that the conflict drags on, the more difficult it will be to solve any of these issues, much less all of them. That will make it harder and harder for Israel to justify keeping Gaza under blockade and the West Bank under occupation; eventually it will have to unilaterally withdraw, which the current leadership opposes, or it will have to annex the territories and become either an apartheid-style state that denies full rights to those new Palestinian citizens or abandon its Jewish state.

Meanwhile, extremism and apathy and distrust are rising on both sides. The violence of the conflict is becoming status quo, a regularly recurring event that is replacing the peace process itself as the way by which the conflict advances. It is making things worse for Israelis and Palestinians alike all the time, and unless they can break from the hatred and violence long enough to make peace, that will continue.


All your own work ?

[ballengeich]

But Israel is the only impediment to peace. Hamas are an irrelevance to the causes of war as the old PLO/Fatah used to be.

As Israel has been under attack throughout its existence from nations and organisations which desire its destruction and the slaughter of its inhabitants I can't understand how you hold this belief.

Stop the blockade, remove the wall, allow economic activity, implement the Two State Solution, joint sovereignty of Jerusalem. If Hamas are too corrupt or stupid to negotiate with, implement the changes yourself.

That's a list of worthy aspirations, not a plan. In particular, I don't see how you can pretend that Hamas who have massive and possibly even majority support from Palestinians can be ignored.

The lie that the Arab Israel conflict is impossible to solve is only spread by those who have no interest in solving it.



Personally I haven't seen anyone claiming this, but people who want to reach a peaceful solution don't claim that right and wrong can be entirely split between the competing parties.

[hibsbollah]

Personally I haven't seen anyone claiming this, but people who want to reach a peaceful solution don't claim that right and wrong can be entirely split between the competing parties.

Well, that isn't what I said. Right and wrong doesnt come into it, its about the relative power each side wields. If you're going to debate the point then at least be honest enough to avoid making straw men.

[sidjames]

All your own work ?

Nope.why?

You my old tutor by any chance!

[Betty Boop]

Nope.why?

You my old tutor by any chance!

At least you're honest lol The text is familiar that's all :greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

Maybe an insight into a certain mindset:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbCMZv-fHSQ

[Pretty Boy]

A question for any Christians on here:

I was watching an old documentary about Gaza the other night and a Christian gentleman on it said he went to Israel twice a year to help building projects in occupied areas because the Jews were Gods chosen people and Israel was, according to the Bible, their land.

Surely as a Christian who recognises the New Testament he believes the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled with the birth, life and resurrection of Christ. Surely by rejecting the, from a Christian viewpoint, promised Messiah the Jewish people/Israelites broke their covenant with God and the true chosen people are those who accepted the saviour?

Maybe I'm totally missing the point but I fail to see how a Christian can accept Christ as the son of God whilst believing the people who rejected him remain Gods chosen people. The two don't fit together. Surely by accepting Christ as a prophet, but not the son of God, even the Islamic people have got closer to keeping the covenant than the Jewish people

Of course I'd stress I don't for a second believe the Bible has any place in deciding the future of Israel and Palestine.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe an insight into a certain mindset:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbCMZv-fHSQ

Not very insightful at all, just a zealot with a mic.

Try this link for some other, less predictable, mindsets.

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[Betty Boop]

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/gazas-alshifa-hospital/24224

Jon Snow in Gaza, heartbreaking scenes.

[hibsbollah]

15 dead over 150 injured in bombing of school. It just gets worse.

[Hibrandenburg]

15 dead over 150 injured in bombing of school. It just gets worse.


It's not much but I together with many of my colleagues have told our employer today that we will no longer fly into Israel until this madness stops.

I'm sure they will find others willing to do so and that disciplinary action will follow but enough is enough.

[Lewis77]

Lets just talk about Palestinian land, not Israeli and lets just talk about the facts. Israel continues to occupy and colonise Palestinian land in direct violation of United Nations resolutions, of the International Quartet Road Map, of the commitments that leaders of Israel have made at Camp David and Oslo promising that Israel would withdraw from occupied territories, which they have failed to do.

Today Palestinians endure one of the worst examples of human rights deprivation. They live under a system which is akin to apartheid yet they are all demonised when they fight back as being militant terrorists.

This current Israeli onslaught is justified as being a measured response to Palestinian aggression. However Palestine doesn't occupy Israeli land, Palestine isn't herding Israelis into an overcrowded walled off area where they are deprived of free trade and denied the freedom to travel on Palestinian only roads. Nevertheless, at present Palestinians endure a mirrored version of this persecution at the hands of Israel (the irony here is simply stunning).

I come from a family that has members who fought fascist/oppressive regimes and writing this is my wee homage to them. It just amazes me how we are all hoodwinked over the Palestine situation. If this were happening to Greek Cypriots at the hands of Turks would we all be so complicit?

Reports now state that during this current Israeli onslaught over 600 Palestinians have died and the United Nations report that the number of displaced Palestinians seeking UN sanctuary exceeds one hundred thousand people.

I am an atheist, I have no allegiance to any side here! However, I am a human being and I have a moral compass which tells me this situation is just wrong! If you were Palestinian what would you do?

The fact the UK government refuses to back a UN investigation into human rights abuse in Gaza is frankly disgusting and just gives further incentive for Scots to vote for independence in my opinion

[may 21/05/2016]

Well said sir they won't stop until America tells them to stop

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

[Lewis77]

It's not much but I together with many of my colleagues have told our employer today that we will no longer fly into Israel until this madness stops.

I'm sure they will find others willing to do so and that disciplinary action will follow but enough is enough.

I praise your stance sir.

[Just Alf]

This really, really upsets me... Having a keen interest in history I have looked at this situation with interest.. I.e. How did we get here?

The whole reason Israel is located where it is, is that over the centuries the Muslims in that wide area associated with "Jews" and lived and worked with them, even protecting Jews in time of strife.... As a result the UN of the time thought this would be a good marriage..... What seems to have gone wrong is that Palestinians are being chucked out their homes of generations with no recompense and their lives are totally restricted.. Israelis as an example can use all roads in the region, Palestinians(different coloured number plates) can only use some roads AND none of those roads link different parts of land "owned" by the Palestinian people. It's at nightmare :-(

[hibsbollah]

Why?

Khibs believes that striving to be apolitical is an obduration of moral responsibilities.

On the other hand he's been quite flirty with Betty recently so it could just be that
:greengrin

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There must be better threads than this to try and get your nat on! ;)

[Carheenlea]

Fascinating film that might be of interest to the posters debating on this thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12920-letter-from-gaza-by-a-norwegian-doctor

****ing horrible reading.

[Betty Boop]

Mark Regev gets ripped up for erse paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1udKN09hvMw

[hibsbollah]

Lots of reports that Israeli police are now saying Hamas had nothing to do with the Israeli teen murders.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Jul-26/265229-hamas-not-complicit-in-teens-kidnap-israeli-police.ashx#axzz38haz4Cu0

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

[Bristolhibby]

Can you find your childrens age in this graphic?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

Outrageous!

J

[hibsbollah]

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5624934?1406484374
Can you find your childrens age in this graphic?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

Outrageous!

J

:agree:

[Betty Boop]

Can you find your childrens age in this graphic?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

Outrageous!

J

That's so sad BH, made me cry.

[Sylar]

Another 100+ killed today too - there really needs to be an escalation in the condemnation and rhetoric as this is becoming a holocaust (with a small h and not reference to the Holocaust). The scenes are abhorrent and the toll just keeps going up and up.

I'm curious - has 'judas' been on this thread advocating a tactical nuclear strike yet?

[Pretty Boy]

Anyone else seen the Fox News clip doing the rounds where the presenter loses the plot with the guy from the US Palestinian centre?

Even by the standards of Fox it's pretty shameful stuff.

[Betty Boop]

Anyone else seen the Fox News clip doing the rounds where the presenter loses the plot with the guy from the US Palestinian centre?

Even by the standards of Fox it's pretty shameful stuff.

Yea Sean Hannity a Richard Hunt of the highest order. Typical *** News.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTwSLyuUCQ

[hibsbollah]

Israeli Tank shells kill 15+, injure 90+ at bombing of UN school.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

'Madness' definition; doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

[The_Todd]

It staggers me that passes for debate and balanced discussion in the US.

[Betty Boop]

Anybody remember our old friend Riz ? :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNUb7NipNGY

[The_Todd]

Israel bombs a Gaza market during a ceasefire which was called by Israel. There are no words for that.

[Stonewall]

Anybody remember our old friend Riz ? :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNUb7NipNGY

Ah Riz. Used to enjoy his particular brand of self-righteous moralism and general unhinged lunacy.

All got a bit unsavoury in the end iirc.

Did he get binned or flounce off, can't remember?

[Betty Boop]

Ah Riz. Used to enjoy his particular brand of self-righteous moralism and general unhinged lunacy.

All got a bit unsavoury in the end iirc.

Did he get binned or flounce off, can't remember?

Think he got launched ? He was a funny guy, but passionate and true to his beliefs. He actually went over to Palestine, if my memory serves me well. :not worth

[Betty Boop]

https://i.imgur.com/H0NSLBk.jpg


Obliterated.

[Pretty Boy]

Decent piece on the contradictory messages coming from Israel about the threat posed by Hamas rockets:

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html

[matty_f]

https://i.imgur.com/H0NSLBk.jpg


Obliterated.

:bitchy: it's just disgusting. How can you find words to describe those attacks?

[ronaldo7]

https://i.imgur.com/H0NSLBk.jpg


Obliterated.

With the help of the British Government.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/britain-admits-selling-12-billion-in-weapons-to-israel/5393215

[Just Alf]

Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

http://gu.com/p/jv9d/tw

[hibsbollah]

Astonishing BBC reporting, both on Today Radio Four this morning (two Israeli academics defending the bombing without any balancing voices) and on BBC 10pm TV news, which was just wall to wall IDF propaganda with Orla Guerin posing questions of articulate IDF soldiers who answered very smoothly and professionally, Palestinian voices conspicuous by their absence, and the narrative is 'its a campaign about destroying terrorist tunnels'.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39281.htm

This is a graphic video and shows the reality of war. Not recommended for kids or those of a nervous disposition.

[Big Frank]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39281.htm

BB, kids could click on that link.

You should warn that this is NOT for children and very graphic.

[Sylar]

BB, kids could click on that link.

You should warn that this is NOT for children and very graphic.

Whilst I agree, you're greeted by this before you even get to the video:


Warning: Graphic

A graphic video showing the killing of journalist Ramy Ryan in Gaza and an attack on an ambulance and rescue workers, by Israeli air strikes has surfaced online.
Warning: This 6-minute video is very graphic, viewer discretion is advised.

[Betty Boop]

BB, kids could click on that link.

You should warn that this is NOT for children and very graphic.

Sorry Frank, I should have done that.

[Sylar]

Yea Sean Hannity a Richard Hunt of the highest order. Typical *** News.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTwSLyuUCQ

It seems Russell Brand hit a nerve with his analysis of this interview.

Fox assemble another panel of idiots to slander, abuse and preach more vitriol about Brand and Hamas, whilst labelling all supporters of Hamas as bigots, idiots and terrorist sympathisers.

Absolutely abhorrent institution who make the BBC seem like the most balanced news organisation on the planet.

[RyeSloan]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39281.htm This is a graphic video and shows the reality of war. Not recommended for kids or those of a nervous disposition.

It not the reality of war though is it...it's the reality of indiscriminate killing of civilians.

Quite how anyone can justify that as a means to an end I have no idea. Sickening.

[hibsbollah]

It seems Russell Brand hit a nerve with his analysis of this interview.

Fox assemble another panel of idiots to slander, abuse and preach more vitriol about Brand and Hamas, whilst labelling all supporters of Hamas as bigots, idiots and terrorist sympathisers.

Absolutely abhorrent institution who make the BBC seem like the most balanced news organisation on the planet.

I had a look at fox news earlier, then cbs nbc and some of the Israeli press. Nothing about the deaths at the school, despite the damning criticism from the White House yesterday. Daily Telegraph also avoids it. The Israeli lobby is alive and kicking.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

List of the dead, with ages.

[Betty Boop]

It not the reality of war though is it...it's the reality of indiscriminate killing of civilians.

Quite how anyone can justify that as a means to an end I have no idea. Sickening.

Well sorry, maybe the wrong choice of words, but I couldn't think what to say at the time.

[Canongatehibs]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

List of the dead, with ages.

Absolutely heartbreaking.
Won't stop that lot from pummelling them further though.

[RyeSloan]

Well sorry, maybe the wrong choice of words, but I couldn't think what to say at the time.

Wasn't meant to be a dig...I think anyone that watches that may be short of a few words to describe it.

[Pete]

Think he got launched ? He was a funny guy, but passionate and true to his beliefs. He actually went over to Palestine, if my memory serves me well. :not worth

That was actually one of his better tracks. Hats off to the Scottish rappers but you're fighting against the accent as some just sound better than others.

I thought he was in America working with kids but now he's apparently "Head of youth development and projects director for Arsenal soccer schools in Vietnam".

Shy bairns get nowt.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush

An alternative analysis to explain what's going on...Gaza is sitting on as much natural gas wealth as Kuwait.

[Betty Boop]

Truly gobsmacked at this-----http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/1-samuel-1518/#ixzz39AMvaW2E --------

[Big Frank]

Sorry Frank, I should have done that.

Good stuff BB.

.... But its me who should apologise as I was curt in my post.

PS appreciate the links you and the others are posting, more informative than the msm

[Hibrandenburg]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701

Quite an interesting read, read the whole article to get some balance.

[Mibbes Aye]

Quote from the senior UN guy in the area

"We are killing about one child every hour right now,"

Criminal. How can it be defended?

[McIntosh]

Quote from the senior UN guy in the area

"We are killing about one child every hour right now,"

Criminal. How can it be defended?

Wicked beyond belief - sanctions now. It would be good if the SFA lead the ways on sporting sanctions.

[Lucius Apuleius]

As an aside, and not fishing here or anything, simple question. Why are there so many UN schools in Gaza?

[Just Alf]

As an aside, and not fishing here or anything, simple question. Why are there so many UN schools in Gaza?

Not a clue but as the folks in Gaza don't seem to be allowed to do anything maybe this is the only way the kids can get an education? :dunno:

[The_Todd]

As an aside, and not fishing here or anything, simple question. Why are there so many UN schools in Gaza?

Given that Egypt and Israel have blockaded Palestinian territories to the extent people, services and goods cannot move easily in or out I'd imagine Palestine just isn't capable of running it's own schools.

[GoldenEagle]

I see that Baroness Warsi has resigned stating that she can no longer support the Govt's stance on Gaza.

Well done to her taking a moral stance.

[hibsbollah]

I see that Baroness Warsi has resigned stating that she can no longer support the Govt's stance on Gaza.

Well done to her taking a moral stance.

The end of her political career.

[Pretty Boy]

These chaps look like they are having a good laugh.

[Betty Boop]

These chaps look like they are having a good laugh.

They're sick in the heid.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Not a clue but as the folks in Gaza don't seem to be allowed to do anything maybe this is the only way the kids can get an education? :dunno:

Then why just Gaza? Why not as I have said before, Nigeria, Pakistan, etc etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LaSKALEpa8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Israeli prime minister's press conference. If even some of what he is saying is true then Hamas are definitely off my Christmas card list.

[--------]

Quote from the senior UN guy in the area

"We are killing about one child every hour right now,"

Criminal. How can it be defended?


The UNITED NATIONS were killing one child an hour just then?

[Stranraer]

Then why just Gaza? Why not as I have said before, Nigeria, Pakistan, etc etc.

I don't see the comparison with Pakistan?

[Stranraer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LaSKALEpa8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Israeli prime minister's press conference. If even some of what he is saying is true then Hamas are definitely off my Christmas card list.

Netanyahu said Israel's response was "proportionate" he's definitely off my Christmas card list.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LaSKALEpa8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Israeli prime minister's press conference. If even some of what he is saying is true then Hamas are definitely off my Christmas card list.

I'm not sure Hamas were ever on many people Christmas card lists. An Islamist group with a pretty nasty outlook on most things isn't a particularly friendly or cuddly organisation.

My sympathies are for the thousands of innocent civilians killed by a disproportionate and indiscriminate response. Something that has been going on long before Hamas were in a position of power.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I don't see the comparison with Pakistan?

Just mentioning countries that seem to have pretty poorly educated children statistics

[DaveF]

I see George Galloway has been chatting again

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-galloway-declares-bradford-an-israelfree-zone-9653894.html

[Stranraer]

I see George Galloway has been chatting again

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-galloway-declares-bradford-an-israelfree-zone-9653894.html

Bloody hell that's a bit much. I think he walked out of a debate at Oxford over an Israeli speaker.

EDIT: Saw the video at the bottom of the article.

[Hibrandenburg]

Bloody hell that's a bit much. I think he walked out of a debate at Oxford over an Israeli speaker.

EDIT: Saw the video at the bottom of the article.

Playing to his own audience. That should see him reelected next term.

[Stranraer]

Playing to his own audience. That should see him reelected next term.

I don't think all those who elected him would agree with this... He went way over the top like usual.

[leggeto]

Terrible what's going on,its needs to STOP NOW

[Sir David Gray]

I see George Galloway has been chatting again

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-galloway-declares-bradford-an-israelfree-zone-9653894.html

Those comments are disgraceful.

By all means, slate the Israeli government and attend demonstrations etc if that's what you believe in. But to call for the population of an entire nation to be banned from entering the city of Bradford is quite astonishing.

I'm not surprised that he's coming away with something like that though, the man's a buffoon.

[--------]

I don't think all those who elected him would agree with this... He went way over the top like usual.


Someone should tell him the correct term is "Judenfrei" or "Judenrein".

Hitler? Channelling Heydrich more like.

[Stranraer]

Someone should tell him the correct term is "Judenfrei" or "Judenrein".

Hitler? Channelling Heydrich more like.

I'm not sure Galloway knows a whole lot about Judaism and I wouldn't say he is using Nazi terminology.

[--------]

I'm not sure Galloway knows a whole lot about Judaism and I wouldn't say he is using Nazi terminology.

Galloway isn't the type to worry whether he knows what he's talking about or not.

He's a clown, and clowns rather frighten me, and while his terminology may not be classic Nazi, his sentiments aren't too far distant.

[Stranraer]

Galloway isn't the type to worry whether he knows what he's talking about or not.

He's a clown, and clowns rather frighten me, and while his terminology may not be classic Nazi, his sentiments aren't too far distant.

Joan Rivers' statement frightens me and makes me sick.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/joan-rivers-palestinians-deserve-to-be-dead-9656554.html

[--------]

Joan Rivers' statement frightens me and makes me sick.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/joan-rivers-palestinians-deserve-to-be-dead-9656554.html


At the risk of being accused of some -ism or other, the Botox must have reached what remains of her 'brain' by now?

I've never taken her seriously as a comedian never mind a commentator of current news. How does she work out that the Americans deserve sympathy for their post-Hiroshima/Nagasaki 'suffering'?

But yup, it's scary - there are more than a few Yanquis who'll reckon she knows what she's talking about - just because she's a celebrity.

[Stranraer]

At the risk of being accused of some -ism or other, the Botox must have reached what remains of her 'brain' by now?

I've never taken her seriously as a comedian never mind a commentator of current news. How does she work out that the Americans deserve sympathy for their post-Hiroshima/Nagasaki 'suffering'?

But yup, it's scary - there are more than a few Yanquis who'll reckon she knows what she's talking about - just because she's a celebrity.

This is very likely. I see Galloway is being investigated by Yorkshire Police.

[--------]

This is very likely. I see Galloway is being investigated by Yorkshire Police.


Good. What he said was inflammatory.

It's a short step from boycotting Israeli goods and produce to boycotting Jewish businesses.

And then trashing Jewish businesses.

And I don't think I need to tell you where that leads.

[Stranraer]

Good. What he said was inflammatory.

It's a short step from boycotting Israeli goods and produce to boycotting Jewish businesses.

And then trashing Jewish businesses.

And I don't think I need to tell you where that leads.

I've said I think Galloway went way overboard and saying that Israeli tourists aren't welcome was dangerously wrong.

[hibsbollah]

Disaster Emergency Committee appeal on TV now. Just gave £50. Www.dec.org.uk 0370 6060900 or text crisis to 70000 to give a fiver.

[Stranraer]

Disaster Emergency Committee appeal on TV now. Just gave £50. Www.dec.org.uk (http://Www.dec.org.uk) 0370 6060900 or text crisis to 70000 to give a fiver.

I managed to donate through Islamic Relief. I remember watching Tony Benn lay into the BBC a good few years back because they didn't air a Gaza appeal, was it the DEC?

[hibsbollah]

I managed to donate through Islamic Relief. I remember watching Tony Benn lay into the BBC a good few years back because they didn't air a Gaza appeal, was it the DEC?

It was. A shameful decision. Both Sky and the BBC showed this one.

[--------]

From Pretty Boy -

A question for any Christians on here:

I was watching an old documentary about Gaza the other night and a Christian gentleman on it said he went to Israel twice a year to help building projects in occupied areas because the Jews were Gods chosen people and Israel was, according to the Bible, their land.

Surely as a Christian who recognises the New Testament he believes the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled with the birth, life and resurrection of Christ. Surely by rejecting the, from a Christian viewpoint, promised Messiah the Jewish people/Israelites broke their covenant with God and the true chosen people are those who accepted the saviour?

Maybe I'm totally missing the point but I fail to see how a Christian can accept Christ as the son of God whilst believing the people who rejected him remain Gods chosen people. The two don't fit together. Surely by accepting Christ as a prophet, but not the son of God, even the Islamic people have got closer to keeping the covenant than the Jewish people

Of course I'd stress I don't for a second believe the Bible has any place in deciding the future of Israel and Palestine.

I just KNEW someone was going to ask this.

There is a stream of opinion in the Christian Church today (I'm using the term 'Church' in its widest sense here) that teaches this.

It goes back to a guy called Cyrus Ingerson Schofield who published a "study" Bible just before the First World War which had detailed "study notes" printed on the page side-by-side with the Biblical text.

Schofield was what's known as a dispensationalist - dispensationalists believe that there will be a series of definite steps or stages in world history, all of which must take place and be complete, before the prophesied return of Christ at the end of history. Much of their thinking rests on the Book of Revelation and a number of other apocalyptic passages in the Gospels and in the Old Testament in books like Isaiah and Daniel. Schofield gave respectability to this belief, and made it much more widely accessible than it had been hitherto.

One of the things dispensationalists teach is that Israel - the linear descendants of the Jewish people of the Bible - will be given a second chance to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and that many will indeed accept him before the end comes.

There's a whole lot of other stuff connected with this which would take ages to go into and result in the longest ever forum post in the history of the Internet, but the above is the basic idea behind the concept of the present Israeli state being the contemporary equivalent of the Chosen People of the Bible.

A few years back two American authors, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, produced a monumental series of (very expensive) novels that set out this idea in great detail - the "Left Behind" series which developed into a lucrative "Christian literature" industry with a couple of dozen novels for adults and teens, DVDs, "Study Guides" - the whole nine yards. These books went into the whole business - the Rapture of believers before the onset of the End Times, the appearance of the Antichrist, the seven-year Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon, all culminating in the Glorious Appearing or the Second Advent of Christ.

Tim LaHaye was George W Bush's "spiritual adviser" - go figure.

Before everyone falls about laughing, there's one thing more. These guys have the idea that before the end comes, the Jewish people will be empowered to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple in its original location on Temple Mount, and there reinstate the OT system of blood sacrifice of animals as set out in the Book of Leviticus. This is an idea that's quite popular with extreme conservative Jewish believers like the Hasidim, and there are people in Israel and others in the US who are seriously intending to do this very thing.

The only problem is that there's already abuilding on the Temple Mount, a rather large one, that's been there for more than 1300 years. It will need to be demolished before the Temple rebuilding can begin. What is this building, do I hear you ask?

It's the Dome of the Rock - one of the oldest and possibly one of the most treasured and important mosques in the world.

Does everyone see the problem?

I would say very strongly that this is NOT mainstream Christian belief. It surfaces from time to time in the history of the Church. I know as friends a number of Jewish converts to Christianity who wouldn't touch this stuff with a bargepole.

Nor would I.

And now I'm going to have the Prophecy People after my guts as well as the Atheist People.

Oh well.

[Pretty Boy]

From Pretty Boy -

A question for any Christians on here:

I was watching an old documentary about Gaza the other night and a Christian gentleman on it said he went to Israel twice a year to help building projects in occupied areas because the Jews were Gods chosen people and Israel was, according to the Bible, their land.

Surely as a Christian who recognises the New Testament he believes the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled with the birth, life and resurrection of Christ. Surely by rejecting the, from a Christian viewpoint, promised Messiah the Jewish people/Israelites broke their covenant with God and the true chosen people are those who accepted the saviour?

Maybe I'm totally missing the point but I fail to see how a Christian can accept Christ as the son of God whilst believing the people who rejected him remain Gods chosen people. The two don't fit together. Surely by accepting Christ as a prophet, but not the son of God, even the Islamic people have got closer to keeping the covenant than the Jewish people

Of course I'd stress I don't for a second believe the Bible has any place in deciding the future of Israel and Palestine.

I just KNEW someone was going to ask this.

There is a stream of opinion in the Christian Church today (I'm using the term 'Church' in its widest sense here) that teaches this.

It goes back to a guy called Cyrus Ingerson Schofield who published a "study" Bible just before the First World War which had detailed "study notes" printed on the page side-by-side with the Biblical text.

Schofield was what's known as a dispensationalist - dispensationalists believe that there will be a series of definite steps or stages in world history, all of which must take place and be complete, before the prophesied return of Christ at the end of history. Much of their thinking rests on the Book of Revelation and a number of other apocalyptic passages in the Gospels and in the Old Testament in books like Isaiah and Daniel. Schofield gave respectability to this belief, and made it much more widely accessible than it had been hitherto.

One of the things dispensationalists teach is that Israel - the linear descendants of the Jewish people of the Bible - will be given a second chance to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and that many will indeed accept him before the end comes.

There's a whole lot of other stuff connected with this which would take ages to go into and result in the longest ever forum post in the history of the Internet, but the above is the basic idea behind the concept of the present Israeli state being the contemporary equivalent of the Chosen People of the Bible.

A few years back two American authors, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, produced a monumental series of (very expensive) novels that set out this idea in great detail - the "Left Behind" series which developed into a lucrative "Christian literature" industry with a couple of dozen novels for adults and teens, DVDs, "Study Guides" - the whole nine yards. These books went into the whole business - the Rapture of believers before the onset of the End Times, the appearance of the Antichrist, the seven-year Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon, all culminating in the Glorious Appearing or the Second Advent of Christ.

Tim LaHaye was George W Bush's "spiritual adviser" - go figure.

Before everyone falls about laughing, there's one thing more. These guys have the idea that before the end comes, the Jewish people will be empowered to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple in its original location on Temple Mount, and there reinstate the OT system of blood sacrifice of animals as set out in the Book of Leviticus. This is an idea that's quite popular with extreme conservative Jewish believers like the Hasidim, and there are people in Israel and others in the US who are seriously intending to do this very thing.

The only problem is that there's already abuilding on the Temple Mount, a rather large one, that's been there for more than 1300 years. It will need to be demolished before the Temple rebuilding can begin. What is this building, do I hear you ask?

It's the Dome of the Rock - one of the oldest and possibly one of the most treasured and important mosques in the world.

Does everyone see the problem?

I would say very strongly that this is NOT mainstream Christian belief. It surfaces from time to time in the history of the Church. I know as friends a number of Jewish converts to Christianity who wouldn't touch this stuff with a bargepole.

Nor would I.

And now I'm going to have the Prophecy People after my guts as well as the Atheist People.

Oh well.

Thanks for that answer Doddie.

My question wasn't meant as a dig, not that I'm suggesting you took it that way, my understanding of the Bible is just somewhat lacking. Sitting half asleep in a Catholic church every Sunday until I was 16 probably isn't the best way to get acquainted with the scriptures!

[Lucius Apuleius]

Dod, with respect to the rebuilding of the Temple, there was an article in yesterday's Times that a boillionaire has rebuilt it, in Brazil. If I remember correctly it holds 10,000 people and is built with stone brought from Israel. Never said if the wood came from the forrests of Lebanon though. :-)

[--------]

Dod, with respect to the rebuilding of the Temple, there was an article in yesterday's Times that a boillionaire has rebuilt it, in Brazil. If I remember correctly it holds 10,000 people and is built with stone brought from Israel. Never said if the wood came from the forrests of Lebanon though. :-)

That would not surprise me, Lucius. NOTHING would surprise me about that bunch.

[--------]

Thanks for that answer Doddie.

My question wasn't meant as a dig, not that I'm suggesting you took it that way, my understanding of the Bible is just somewhat lacking. Sitting half asleep in a Catholic church every Sunday until I was 16 probably isn't the best way to get acquainted with the scriptures!

Didn't take it as a dig, mate. I'd just been hoping no one would notice that particular can of worms sitting in the sorner of the discussion forum.

Having Prophecy People areound is a bit like having an idiot relative in the Ku Klux Klan.

PS - I forgot that Schofield "borrowed" his ideas from another guy called Darbey. They both fell off the same trolley AFAIK.

[Betty Boop]

Hope nobody thinks it antisemetiic to post the sight of the iDF, and their loony Rabbi dancing around In ecstasy, on route to their next slaughter.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_-bevtqMs

[Hibrandenburg]

Hope nobody thinks it antisemetiic to post the sight of the iDF, and their loony Rabbi dancing around In ecstasy, on route to their next slaughter.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_-bevtqMs

It's not, but it's a bit like posting a video of the KKK and saying this is typical American behaviour.

[Canongatehibs]

Worth noting, the NHS are sending out surgeons, doctors, anaesthetists etc to help those pounded by Israel. The UK are also responsible (amongst others) for the production of many of the avionics, ballistics and weaponry used by the Israeli Air Force and their Army.

Good use public money?

Shameful in the extreme!

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/08/-sp-gaza-israeli-strikes-unrwa-schools

[HappyAsHellas]

Hope no one thinks I'm anti Palestinian by posting this.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRA0NKQ0k6E

[Stranraer]

Hope no one thinks I'm anti Palestinian by posting this.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRA0NKQ0k6E

Of course not. There has been a lot of anger and resentment against the US for many many years in the Middle East.

[HappyAsHellas]

Almost as much as the resentment towards the British as well. I worked in the middle east for 7 years, and for some of them, their hatred of us knows no bounds.

[Hibrandenburg]

Joan Rivers dead. Shame that this is what she'll be remembered for.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2719688/Youre-dead-deserve-dead-started-Joan-Rivers-astonishing-attack-stupid-Palestinians.html

[Betty Boop]

Racist pure and simple.

[HappyAsHellas]

Racist pure and simple.

Like so many people in the Middle east.

[Betty Boop]

Like so many people in the Middle east.

And ypur point is ?

[HappyAsHellas]

And ypur point is ?

The point is that Joan Rivers is allegedly going to be remembered for one comment which brands her as racist, while many people in the Middle east would not even flinch at such a statement. The feelings of the average man in the street in Saudi would have the PC brigade fainting en masse. That wont make the papers though, will it.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/us-israel-un-reject-palestinian-resolution-nigeria-security-council

So it goes on.