Israeli Air strikes in Gaza

[Betty Boop]

I disagree. Israel was founded as a homeland for European Jews - a safe haven so that no one could ever again threaten the lives of the Jewish people in the way the Nzis had.

The desire for such a homeland was understandable after the events of the Holocaust (Israelis prefer the term Shoah - destruction). The problem was that the Zionists were determined that that homeland would be what was then known as Palestine - the site of the present state of Israel.

Palestine was already well-populated - with Palestinian Arabs, both Muslim and Christian. Some of the land was sold into Jewish ownership by Arab landlords, quite legitimately. The rest was stolen from the Arabs who owned it by terrorist gangs like the Stern gang and Irgun - find out what Nobel Peace Prize winner Menachem Begin was doing at Deir Yassin in April 1948, for example.
The existing Arab population was driven out of their homes and off their land by Israeli terrorism. The British civil power running the country under UN mandate was driven out by Israeli terrorism. If you can get a hold of a copy, read Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour. He was an eye-witness.

And read Colin Chapman's book Whose Promised Land? - it's pretty thorough in analysing all the arguments, political, military, and religious.

The State of Israel grew out of the Final Solution. The Final Solution had its roots in historic European anti-Jewish resentments, and in the irrational Nazi ideology of the Aryan master-race. (I'm summarising, I know.)

Abused become in turn abusers, and excuse the abuse they inflict on others by pointing to the abuse they themselves suffered.

Gaza is a ghetto, designed to facilitate genocide. For several months in 1945–46, the Irgun’s activities were coordinated within the framework of the Hebrew Resistance Movement under the direction of the Haganah, however this fragile partnership collapsed following the Irgun’s bombing of the British administrative headquarters at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people, including British officers and troops as well as Arab and Jewish civilians. The Irgun under Begin’s leadership continued to carry out operations such as the break in to Acre Prison, and the hanging of two British sergeants, Clifford Martin and Marvyn Paice, causing the British to suspend any further executions of Irgun prisoners. Growing numbers of British forces were deployed to quell the Jewish uprising, yet Begin managed to elude captivity, at times disguised as a rabbi. MI5 placed a 'dead-or-alive' bounty of £10,000 on his head after Irgun threatened 'a campaign of terror against British officials', saying they would kill Sir John Shaw, Britain's Chief Secretary in Palestine. An MI5 agent codenamed Snuffbox also warned that Irgun had sleeper cells in London trying to kill members of British Prime Minister Clement Attlee's Cabinet.[9]

How ironic that the Israelis won't talk to Hamas a "terrorist organisation" when Israel was founded on acts of terrorism! :grr:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Will he be allowed?

I'm thinking of some of the guys who were yellow-carded for wearing T-shirts with political messages on them.

Wait and see, I guess. He's said he's willing to face a fine/ban, I'm not sure if they could stop him wearing it. I wonder how it will go down with 'the People'. :greengrin

[--------]

Wait and see, I guess. He's said he's willing to face a fine/ban, I'm not sure if they could stop him wearing it. I wonder how it will go down with 'the People'. :greengrin


Rangers won't be chuffed if the ref yellow-cards him, he doesn't take it off, so the ref red-cards him.

If I were him I'd just tell the ref that there had been a number of deaths in my family recently.

And of course "The People" have been known to wave Israeli flags at games, from time to time. :rolleyes:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Rangers won't be chuffed if the ref yellow-cards him, he doesn't take it off, so the ref red-cards him.

If I were him I'd just tell the ref that there had been a number of deaths in my family recently.

And of course "The People" have been known to wave Israeli flags at games, from time to time. :rolleyes:

Andy Goram springs to mind...

[--------]

Andy Goram springs to mind...


Indeed.

But not in so honourable a cause....

[hibsbollah]

I disagree. Israel was founded as a homeland for European Jews - a safe haven so that no one could ever again threaten the lives of the Jewish people in the way the Nzis had.

The desire for such a homeland was understandable after the events of the Holocaust (Israelis prefer the term Shoah - destruction). The problem was that the Zionists were determined that that homeland would be what was then known as Palestine - the site of the present state of Israel.

Palestine was already well-populated - with Palestinian Arabs, both Muslim and Christian. Some of the land was sold into Jewish ownership by Arab landlords, quite legitimately. The rest was stolen from the Arabs who owned it by terrorist gangs like the Stern gang and Irgun - find out what Nobel Peace Prize winner Menachem Begin was doing at Deir Yassin in April 1948, for example.

The existing Arab population was driven out of their homes and off their land by Israeli terrorism. The British civil power running the country under UN mandate was driven out by Israeli terrorism. If you can get a hold of a copy, read Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour. He was an eye-witness.

And read Colin Chapman's book Whose Promised Land? - it's pretty thorough in analysing all the arguments, political, military, and religious.

The State of Israel grew out of the Final Solution. The Final Solution had its roots in historic European anti-Jewish resentments, and in the irrational Nazi ideology of the Aryan master-race. (I'm summarising, I know.)

Abused become in turn abusers, and excuse the abuse they inflict on others by pointing to the abuse they themselves suffered.

Gaza is a ghetto, designed to facilitate genocide.

My point is regardless of the historical fact of how the state of Israel was born, the current reality has very little to do with the reality of the holocaust, or the reality of religious difference. It is this misunderstanding that allows the simplified arguments about 'Jews and Arabs will never get on together', as if there is a fundamental schism between the two peoples. A much more informative parallel is with Apartheid South Africa; i would say Gaza is more like a bantustan than a ghetto. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/26/comment Benvenisti makes this point well as long as 5 years ago. This analysis avoids the clumsy and IMO mistaken belief that as a religious entity, the Jews are somehow 'getting their own back' for the holocaust. Typecasting in this way plays right into the zionists hands, and makes it easier for an evil regime to falsely cry 'anti-Semitism'.

[--------]

My point is regardless of the historical fact of how the state of Israel was born, the current reality has very little to do with the reality of the holocaust, or the reality of religious difference. It is this misunderstanding that allows the simplified arguments about 'Jews and Arabs will never get on together', as if there is a fundamental schism between the two peoples. A much more informative parallel is with Apartheid South Africa; i would say Gaza is more like a bantustan than a ghetto.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/26/comment

Benvenisti makes this point well as long as 5 years ago. This analysis avoids the clumsy and IMO mistaken belief that as a religious entity, the Jews are somehow 'getting their own back' for the holocaust. Typecasting in this way plays right into the zionists hands, and makes it easier for an evil regime to falsely cry 'anti-Semitism'.



Benevenisti's analysis may well have been appropriate in 2004. Now, 5 years on, I would suggest that "ghetto" is a better description of the Gaza Strip than "homeland".

He seems to hold the idea that Israeli public opinion will revolt against the concept of "homelands" and force a movement towards an integrated Israeli/Palestinian state?

I aven't suggested that the Israelis are "getting their own back" for the Final Solution. What I would say is that the Israeli state has been moulded by the Final Solution, and that the methods used against European Jewry in the 1940's are the methods Israel has used, and continues to use, against the Palestinian Arabs, who in turn respond with rockets and suicide bombers, which in turn legitimises the Israeli military oppression of the Palestinian people.

But I would still suggest that the European and American response to all that Israel says and does is in part at least moulded by the memory of the mass-murder of European Jewry.

[hibsbollah]

But I would still suggest that the European and American response to all that Israel says and does is in part at least moulded by the memory of the mass-murder of European Jewry.

Fair enough. But that is a world away from Saramago's take on it ("the Jews endlessly scratch their own wound to keep it bleeding, to make it incurable, and they show it to the world as if it were a banner") which is representative of a strand of opinion I don't feel at all comfortable with.

[--------]

Fair enough. But that is a world away from Saramago's take on it ("the Jews endlessly scratch their own wound to keep it bleeding, to make it incurable, and they show it to the world as if it were a banner") which is representative of a strand of opinion I don't feel at all comfortable with.


I don't know.

I agree that the phrase "the Jews" is uncomfortable. Too reminiscent of "die Juden sind unser Unglueck..." of Goebbels.

And in the face of those who deny that the Final Solution ever happened, I can understand that Jewish historians would be deeply concerned to nail down the truth again and again.

But I do think that when the Israelis comes under criticism for their conduct in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon, the Final Solution can be a handy tool to deflect blame from themselves.

[hibsbollah]

ceasefire about to be announced

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835364.stm

[--------]

ceasefire about to be announced

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835364.stm



Hm. :cool2:

[Sir David Gray]

ceasefire about to be announced

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835364.stm

I'm delighted to hear that the violence will be coming to an end, for the time being.

At least until the next time, when Hamas decides that it's had enough of peace and then it's back to square one.

I'll give it 6 months, and that's being optimistic...

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm delighted to hear that the violence will be coming to an end, for the time being.

At least until the next time, when Hamas decides that it's had enough of peace and then it's back to square one.

I'll give it 6 months, and that's being optimistic...

For ****'s sake....

Who broke the ceasefire?

[Betty Boop]

I'm delighted to hear that the violence will be coming to an end, for the time being.

At least until the next time, when Hamas decides that it's had enough of peace and then it's back to square one.

I'll give it 6 months, and that's being optimistic... Seeing as you are such a big supporter of Israel, what are your thoughts on the bombing and shelling of the UN compound which was sheltering over a thousand innocent people fleeing from their homes, also the destruction of two schools and a hospital, and the use of white phosphorous?

[Betty Boop]

Hm. :cool2: Video of Gerald Kaufmann's speech http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21781.htm

[Sir David Gray]

Seeing as you are such a big supporter of Israel, what are your thoughts on the bombing and shelling of the UN compound which was sheltering over a thousand innocent people fleeing from their homes, also the destruction of two schools and a hospital, and the use of white phosphorous?

I strongly condemn the bombing of the UN shelter, just as I condemn Hamas members for situating themselves nearby to the shelter, knowing full well that Israel would fire back at that area, which obviously resulted in the bombing of the UN compound.

I think Israel was wrong to be so forceful in that area, even if Hamas fighters were nearby.

The same goes for the schools and the hospital.

As for the use of White Phosphorous. I'm not too clued up on weapons, but I understand that White Phosphorous is extremely hot and can cause other horrible symptoms. Obviously if this has been used in heavily populated civilian areas, then it's wrong.


For ****'s sake....

Who broke the ceasefire?

Both sides blame each other for breaking the last ceasefire, but I tend to believe Israel over a terrorist organisation.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Both sides blame each other for breaking the last ceasefire, but I tend to believe Israel over a terrorist organisation.

Israel is a terrorist organisation.

Would you believe the spokesman for Ehud Olmert?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrYv5pUzps

[Betty Boop]

Israel is a terrorist organisation.

Would you believe the spokesman for Ehud Olmert?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrYv5pUzps

An obnoxious rodent! :bitchy:

[Sir David Gray]

Israel is a terrorist organisation.

Would you believe the spokesman for Ehud Olmert?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrYv5pUzps

It's a pity that the video cut out before Mark Regev's interview had finished. What I took from that was, despite the fact that the number of rockets being fired into Israel during the early part of the ceasefire dropped dramatically, Hamas were still busy building tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons into Gaza. Israel then responded to stop this from happening, which then resulted in an escalation of violence on both sides.

I don't deny that Israel carried out attacks on Gaza during the ceasefire, but I believe that they were provoked due to the building of the tunnels, which Israel considers to be a threat to their security. Hence why I think Hamas were responsible for originally breaking the terms of the ceasefire.

I also think the very last part of that video, where the interviewer says to Mark Regev that no Israeli civilians were being killed, is entirely irrelevant. If a group is acting in a way that even remotely threatens the safety and security of a nation, I would expect that nation's government to act.

Anyway, we are now onto a new ceasefire and as i've already said, it'll be interesting to see if Hamas can prove a lot of people wrong by choosing peaceful dialogue over violence.

I don't think they will prove anyone wrong and, like I say, I'll give it 6 months, at the most.

I do not believe a lasting peace can be achieved in this conflict and I think all the politicians who think they can solve the issue, are wasting their time.

[hibsdaft]

anyone know why there are no western journalists in Gaza? keep hearing it mentioned, but never the reason behind it. is it to do with the Alan Johnston kidnapping or something?

[Darth Hibbie]

anyone know why there are no western journalists in Gaza? keep hearing it mentioned, but never the reason behind it. is it to do with the Alan Johnston kidnapping or something?

Think its cause Israel will not let them in.

All part of the one sided slant they like to put on it me thinks.

No doubt they will give some reason about safety etc

[Gerard]

Seeing as you are such a big supporter of Israel, what are your thoughts on the bombing and shelling of the UN compound which was sheltering over a thousand innocent people fleeing from their homes, also the destruction of two schools and a hospital, and the use of white phosphorous?

The state of Israel had to take action against Hamas. The question is how could that have been done without killing and injuring non combantants? Hamas do not respond to non military actions and as a consequence the SOI had to take military means. Hamas fire thier rockets near to non military targets and when the IDF takes action against this threat it was inevitable that there would be civilian injuries and deaths.

WP is used as a military means to signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. White Phosphorus can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against vehicles, petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas, and enemy observers. WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It is usually dispersed by explosive munitions. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst. White phosphorus was used most often during World War II in military formulations for smoke screens, marker shells, incendiaries, hand grenades, smoke markers, colored flares, and tracer bullets.

As the IDF's military action into Gaza was to use tanks and infantry WP was used for the reasons described above.

I hope that Hamas decide to cease the use of their rockets as they have fired From 2001 through May 2008 more than 3,000 Qassam rockets and 2,500mortar attacks against Israeli targets.

There is a chance for peace in this area of World as The SOI wants all the countries in this area to live peacefully with the SOI. I hope that this will happen and soon.
G

[Tazio]

Israel is a terrorist organisation.



For anyone who doesn't know about IDF ruthlessness Qana is well worth a google.

And a very shocking emotional piece by Robert Fisk. Be aware this article contains a very graphic image.

Fisk on Qana (http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html)

[hibsbollah]

WP is used as a military means to signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. White Phosphorus can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against vehicles, petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas, and enemy observers. WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It is usually dispersed by explosive munitions. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst. White phosphorus was used most often during World War II in military formulations for smoke screens, marker shells, incendiaries, hand grenades, smoke markers, colored flares, and tracer bullets.

As the IDF's military action into Gaza was to use tanks and infantry WP was used for the reasons described above.

G

You forgot to mention that on contact with skin, WP burns right down to the bone. Its use in built up areas would be considered a breach of the Geneva convention. Gaza is the most populous urban area on Earth.:bye:

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't claim to be well informed on this conflict as everytime I hear the words Israel or Palastine, then my eyelids start to feel very very heavy. However reading through the posts on here and that info I get from papers and TV when I can stay awake tells me that both sides are as bad as each other and that there are no good or bad guys in this conflict.

What sways the sympathy for me is that Hamas, no matter how successful or not aim deliberately at Israeli civilian targets whereas Israel have hit many more innocent civilians due to mistakes or because of Hamas positioning fighters deliberately near civilian/religious instalations.

[Betty Boop]

UN official Christopher Gunness exposes the "Human Shield" myth http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PVGQVN4HURQ&feature=related

[LiverpoolHibs]

anyone know why there are no western journalists in Gaza? keep hearing it mentioned, but never the reason behind it. is it to do with the Alan Johnston kidnapping or something?

I think a number left and some were expelled when Hamas took power.


For anyone who doesn't know about IDF ruthlessness Qana is well worth a google.

And a very shocking emotional piece by Robert Fisk. Be aware this article contains a very graphic image.

Fisk on Qana (http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html)

Cheers, I'd never heard about that. Disgusting.


How does it work when we have extreme left wing members of the UK population collaborating with Jewish organisations to smash the Nazi's and the BNP.......yet a few weeks later they want to smash the Israelies on behalf of the population of Palestine.

Because the Jewish people and the State of Israel are not synonymous, and it depends what you mean by 'smash the Israelis'.


Don't claim to be well informed on this conflict as everytime I hear the words Israel or Palastine, then my eyelids start to feel very very heavy. However reading through the posts on here and that info I get from papers and TV when I can stay awake tells me that both sides are as bad as each other and that there are no good or bad guys in this conflict.

What sways the sympathy for me is that Hamas, no matter how successful or not aim deliberately at Israeli civilian targets whereas Israel have hit many more innocent civilians due to mistakes or because of Hamas positioning fighters deliberately near civilian/religious instalations.

Nearly seventy years ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

- Uri Avnery.

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01122009.html

[The Green Goblin]

What sways the sympathy for me is that Hamas, no matter how successful or not aim deliberately at Israeli civilian targets whereas Israel have hit many more innocent civilians due to mistakes or because of Hamas positioning fighters deliberately near civilian/religious instalations.


Palestinian dead: 1200 (400 of them children)
Israeli dead: 17


You`re right. The Israeli`s are being very careful aren`t they?

GG

[LiverpoolHibs]

Really, I would've thought that they were almost one and the same.

You can see where people get confused though.

UK extreme left wing politics include smashing the Nazis and extreme right wing groups, and therefore you would normally think that the UK Jewish population would be involved (which I believe that they are but to be fair I wouldn't know 100%)

But Palestine comes along and Israel and its Jewish population are accused of using a "right wing policy" against a weaker group and the Palestine's then get huge support from the non-Jewish left wing groups in the UK.

Extreme right wing UK groups then start to sympathise with Israel as they think that Islam the greatest threat to the Western white race...Israel flags at Ibrox..

Maybe if Hamas get their aim of murdering thousands of Jews around the world the UK left wing groups will start to protest against the persecution of the Jews again!?


For me the UK left wing groups will align themselves to any cause, at any time, as long as they are seen to support the underdog against a larger oppressor.


:greengrin

Why would you have said they're one and the same?

And I know you're being facetious, but you think that because the Left opposes fascism/racism/anti-semitism it should therefore support Israeli state-terrorism? And who's to say the Jewish anti-Nazi activists are necessarily supportive of Israel's actions?

And yes, I'd hope the Left did always side with the oppressed against the oppressor - that's sort of the point. There is no collision of interests here

[--------]

anyone know why there are no western journalists in Gaza? keep hearing it mentioned, but never the reason behind it. is it to do with the Alan Johnston kidnapping or something?

No.

It's to prevent information about what's going on in Gaza reaching the West. It's an embargo enforced by the Israelis, who control the borders of Gaza and are extremely difficult to deal with even in periods of quiet.

The Gaza Strip isn't an independent nation - it's a ghetto. How often does it have to be said?

Not long ago (before the current violence broke out) a group of people I know from the Highlands took a van-load of nursing supplies to Gaza for one of the clinics there. They were stopped at the border by Israeli soldiers - mostly guys in their late teens.

The Israelis made them open the van - fair enough.

They were made to unload the van - fair enough.

They were made to open all the outer packing - in spite of the fact that everything was in the original boxes. But I suppose you might say you can't be too careful.

The van was loaded with toilet rolls, disposable nappies, dressings, antiseptics and disinfectants, simple medications like Savlon and TCP, aspirin and paracetamol, hypodermic syringes, cleansing swabs, everything in the original packaging, everything with the seals unbroken.

The woman who told me the story (a pensioner whom I have no cause to disbelieve) said that the Israelis made the group open EVERY individual inner package - all the toilet rolls were unrolled, all the nappies were scattered over the road, the tubes of ointment were opened and squeezed out onto the road, all the bottles were opened, the pills spilled out, the sterile seals on the syringes and dressings broken (and THEY were all scattered on the road too)....

These were UK church workers, everyone with his/her passport in order, running a van which had been cleared at the Israeli Embassy in London, cleared by the Israeli government, travelling under the banner of a recognised and well-known charity.

My friend told me that the soldiers were grinning the whole time they were "inspecting" the van. It was a huge joke to them. The only possible interpretation my friend could put on the episode was that the Israeli Army was determined that the inhabitants of Gaza were to receive nothing that hadn't been opened, handled, and spoiled.

Until that trip, that woman was pro-Israeli - very much so. Her comment to me after telling me what she had experienced (it took them FIVE hours to be cleared through the check-point) was that she now knew what Nazis looked like.

[Betty Boop]

No.

It's to prevent information about what's going on in Gaza reaching the West. It's an embargo enforced by the Israelis, who control the borders of Gaza and are extremely difficult to deal with even in periods of quiet.

The Gaza Strip isn't an independent nation - it's a ghetto. How often does it have to be said? :agree: The Israelis want to cover up their slaughter of innocent women and children, and by barring international journalists allows them to keep peddling their propoganda. :rolleyes:

[--------]

:agree: The Israelis want to cover up their slaughter of innocent women and children, and by barring international journalists allows them to keep peddling their propoganda. :rolleyes:



Exactly. :agree:

[hibsdaft]

its disgraceful that i have been watching this story on the news for 3 weeks but i've never heard this explained.

anyway seems Hamas have called a ceasefire now, which according to The Times is Hamas "raising the stakes", you couldn't make it up.

[The Green Goblin]

But I guess that's not quite as newsworthy, to the anti-Israel brigade, as reporting suffering by women and children. As terrible as that undoubtedly is, the above two facts overwhelmingly suggest that they are not the targets.

These pictures say otherwise. http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/


But as soon as the media reports on women and children being rushed to hospital, there is a massive outcry against the Israelis. Either way, I think it's pretty conclusive that any civilian deaths up until this point have been the result of tragic, unfortunate circumstances that happen in every armed conflict.

Conclusive? Unfortunate? Look at the pictures again, and have a look at yourself again. http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/ I wonder why there`s a `massive outcry` against the Israelis? A real mystery if ever there was one.

You tell me how the things in these pictures can ever be justified. You can type the stuff about it being "sad" or "unfortunate", but faced with the reality of the things you are talking about in photos, (that wouldn`t ever make it onto the mainstream news) it doesn`t quite stand up does it?

GG

[Sir David Gray]

These pictures say otherwise. http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/



Conclusive? Unfortunate? Look at the pictures again, and have a look at yourself again. http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/ I wonder why there`s a `massive outcry` against the Israelis? A real mystery if ever there was one.

You tell me how the things in these pictures can ever be justified. You can type the stuff about it being "sad" or "unfortunate", but faced with the reality of the things you are talking about in photos, (that wouldn`t ever make it onto the mainstream news) it doesn`t quite stand up does it?

GG

I know that Israel has made mistakes in this campaign. They have come out of it with some bad press, some of it's justified, some isn't.

As I said right at the start of this thread, I strongly believe that Israel will continue to carry out acts that will anger people and test their friendship with their strongest allies. I also believe that their allies will eventually turn on them and things will get worse for the Israelis until they get this huge attack on them, that I have spoken about.

Do people really think that I take my position on this conflict, lightly? I have thought long and hard about it. But I still believe I have made the correct decision in supporting Israel.

I understand why people are angry and upset and support the Palestinians. I mainly take my stance because of my personal beliefs. Which, again, I do not take lightly.

I know a lot of people won't be able to comprehend this view but I hope it can be respected.

[hibsdaft]

I strongly believe that Israel will continue to carry out acts that will anger people and test their friendship with their strongest allies. I also believe that their allies will eventually turn on them and things will get worse for the Israelis until they get this huge attack on them, that I have spoken about.

so you're justifying the slaughter shown in those pictures with some premonitions you've had :confused:

[--------]

I know that Israel has made mistakes in this campaign. They have come out of it with some bad press, some of it's justified, some isn't.

As I said right at the start of this thread, I strongly believe that Israel will continue to carry out acts that will anger people and test their friendship with their strongest allies. I also believe that their allies will eventually turn on them and things will get worse for the Israelis until they get this huge attack on them, that I have spoken about.

Do people really think that I take my position on this conflict, lightly? I have thought long and hard about it. But I still believe I have made the correct decision in supporting Israel.

I understand why people are angry and upset and support the Palestinians. I mainly take my stance because of my personal beliefs. Which, again, I do not take lightly.

I know a lot of people won't be able to comprehend this view but I hope it can be respected.


Mistakes is an interesting way of describing what the Israeli Army's been doing. The maps they have of the Gaza Strip are as accurate as they can be - after all, they were occupying the area until not so long ago.

With accurate maps and modern weaponry, at the ranges these bombardments are being carried out, there's not a lot of likelihood of "mistakes".

And if Israel ever finds itself in real danger of being defeated, the Israeli government will immediately make the conflict a nuclear one.

Golda Meir was only a few hours from giving the IAF the OK to nuke Cairo, Damascus and Amman during the Yom Kippur War. the only reason she didn't was that the Army managed to hold the Golan Heights.

The aircraft were bombed up and on the runways ready to roll when they got the stand-down.

[Betty Boop]

I know that Israel has made mistakes in this campaign. They have come out of it with some bad press, some of it's justified, some isn't.

As I said right at the start of this thread, I strongly believe that Israel will continue to carry out acts that will anger people and test their friendship with their strongest allies. I also believe that their allies will eventually turn on them and things will get worse for the Israelis until they get this huge attack on them, that I have spoken about.

Do people really think that I take my position on this conflict, lightly? I have thought long and hard about it. But I still believe I have made the correct decision in supporting Israel.
I understand why people are angry and upset and support the Palestinians. I mainly take my stance because of my personal beliefs. Which, again, I do not take lightly.

I know a lot of people won't be able to comprehend this view but I hope it can be respected. But I believe you said earlier on this thread, you only became interested in this issue a couple of months ago? :confused:

[The Green Goblin]

I know that Israel has made mistakes in this campaign. They have come out of it with some bad press, some of it's justified, some isn't.

As I said right at the start of this thread, I strongly believe that Israel will continue to carry out acts that will anger people and test their friendship with their strongest allies. I also believe that their allies will eventually turn on them and things will get worse for the Israelis until they get this huge attack on them, that I have spoken about.

Do people really think that I take my position on this conflict, lightly? I have thought long and hard about it. But I still believe I have made the correct decision in supporting Israel.

I understand why people are angry and upset and support the Palestinians. I mainly take my stance because of my personal beliefs. Which, again, I do not take lightly.

I know a lot of people won't be able to comprehend this view but I hope it can be respected.


I comprehend your views, as you have explained them in detail on this thread. I don`t know if I could look at those photos and then respect your views, but I`ll go so far as to say that I respect your right to hold them, as I hold mine.

My concern here though, is that you see those pictures, and seem to be blinded or almost immune to them, to what they really mean for those people, to what they represent, because of your religious belief that it`s all part of an inevitable and pre-determined `bigger picture`. I find that cause for concern, as it prevents you from reacting to such horrors on a basic human level.

I see those pictures as something indescribable, a total failure of humanity both from those who carried out such acts and those who could have stopped it but who instead stood by and did nothing.

GG

[LiverpoolHibs]

I comprehend your views, as you have explained them in detail on this thread. I don`t know if I could look at those photos and then respect your views, but I`ll go so far as to say that I respect your right to hold them, as I hold mine.

My concern here though, is that you see those pictures, and seem to be blinded or almost immune to them, to what they really mean for those people, to what they represent, because of your religious belief that it`s all part of an inevitable and pre-determined `bigger picture`. I find that cause for concern, as it prevents you from reacting to such horrors on a basic human level.

I see those pictures as something indescribable, a total failure of humanity both from those who carried out such acts and those who could have stopped it but who instead stood by and did nothing.

GG

:agree:

I think the fact that, by logical extension of his argument, Israel could drop nuclear bombs on Gaza and the West Bank and still be assured of his unswaying support detracts somewhat from the appositeness of his argument.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nearly seventy years ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

- Uri Avnery.

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01122009.html

Interesting well written post using the Nazis as an analogy. Where it doesn't hold water IMO is there is no doubt to who the unprovoked aggressor was in WWII. Neither Russia or Britain sent suicide bombers into German cities or fired rockets at their civilian population beforehand.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Interesting well written post using the Nazis as an analogy. Where it doesn't hold water IMO is there is no doubt to who the unprovoked aggressor was in WWII. Neither Russia or Britain sent suicide bombers into German cities or fired rockets at their civilian population beforehand.

That's a different issue alltogether, that was merely in response to the accusation that Hamas were using Palestinian civilians as human-shields.

[Sir David Gray]

so you're justifying the slaughter shown in those pictures with some premonitions you've had :confused:

I've not had any premonitions. I became aware of the whole belief that I have, some months ago and from certain events that I have witnessed, both in the Middle East and in the rest of the world since then, I see a lot of these things coming true.

Just to say it again, for the umpteenth time, I do not "justify the slaughter" of innocent people. I have already said on numerous occasions that if Israeli forces deliberately kill or injure civilians, then it's completely unjustified and utterly indefensible.

I have also strongly condemned the bombing of the UN shelter.

I believe that, in many ways, it's Israel's fault for the situation they find themselves in and that won't be rectified until they have been attacked.


But I believe you said earlier on this thread, you only became interested in this issue a couple of months ago? :confused:

The belief that I now have, I became aware of some months ago. Even up until a couple of years ago, I obviously knew of the conflict but had no real opinions on it, either way.

When I first became aware of this belief, I had to do quite a bit of research and had to think about it long and hard. I didn't just wake up one morning and thought it would be a good idea to support Israel.


I comprehend your views, as you have explained them in detail on this thread. I don`t know if I could look at those photos and then respect your views, but I`ll go so far as to say that I respect your right to hold them, as I hold mine.

My concern here though, is that you see those pictures, and seem to be blinded or almost immune to them, to what they really mean for those people, to what they represent, because of your religious belief that it`s all part of an inevitable and pre-determined `bigger picture`. I find that cause for concern, as it prevents you from reacting to such horrors on a basic human level.

I see those pictures as something indescribable, a total failure of humanity both from those who carried out such acts and those who could have stopped it but who instead stood by and did nothing.

GG

Trust me, i'm not immune to human suffering. I feel extreme sorrow for the innocent people caught up in this conflict. But I can't forget the fact that I do believe that what is happening in the Middle East is inevitable. As I've said, Israel will keep digging a hole for itself, until it gets so far.

I do not believe there is anything that any politician can do that will change things.




I think the fact that, by logical extension of his argument, Israel could drop nuclear bombs on Gaza and the West Bank and still be assured of his unswaying support detracts somewhat from the appositeness of his argument.

Perhaps, I've not been clear enough as to what my true feelings are, due to my defence of Israel during the recent conflict.

I, and others who share my thoughts on the Middle East, are not necessarily always supporting the Israeli Government. It is, in the main, simply supporting the presence of a Jewish State in that region. Obviously, that State IS Israel and often, that support does extend itself to the actions of the Israeli Government.

However, support for a Jewish State in the region, does not automatically mean that everything Israel's Government does is blindly accepted. It's more a case of, everything that Israel's Government does, particularly the controversial things, is a step in the direction of where we think things will eventually end up.

If I take your example, which I accept was hypothetical, of Israel dropping nuclear bombs on West Bank and Gaza. I would not agree with such action being used but if it did happen, then I would know that it would be a massive step closer to what I said will happen, from actually unfolding. As i'm quite certain that if Israel used nuclear weapons on either of those places, it would be met with widespread condemnation from the international community, including the USA and UK.

Let me make my position quite clear, once and for all. First and foremost, I support a Jewish state in that land. The actions of that state's Government are crucial in determining the twists and turns of this conflict and when it will ultimately come to an end, but are not necessarily to be supported.

The whole thing is extremely complicated and maybe I haven't got a full comprehension of it all. Perhaps I'm even wrong about the whole situation, in which case i'll look very stupid.

As I said a couple of days ago, I think it's just a case of "watch this space" to see what happens next. One thing that's almost definite is, this current ceasefire will not last.

[hibsdaft]

have i missed a crucial post, what is it you have said will happen? the bit in bold is way over my head:


If I take your example, which I accept was hypothetical, of Israel dropping nuclear bombs on West Bank and Gaza. I would not agree with such action being used but if it did happen, then I would know that it would be a massive step closer to what I said will happen, from actually unfolding.

[Sir David Gray]

have i missed a crucial post, what is it you have said will happen? the bit in bold is way over my head:

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism), it explains a lot of my thoughts on the issue.

[--------]

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism), it explains a lot of my thoughts on the issue.


Don't tell me you're a "Left Behind" guy.... :cool2:

[Sir David Gray]

Don't tell me you're a "Left Behind" guy.... :cool2:

As I said earlier, I never used to subscribe to anything like that (I had no thoughts either way, about anything of that nature), until I read about it months ago. Since then, I have witnessed several things happen which go along with that belief. I am becoming more certain all the time, that it is actually true.

Like I say though, as with anything that is religion orientated, I can't be 100% certain and I could be completely wrong about the whole thing. We will all just have to wait and see what unfolds.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21794.htm



Well done Robert Fisk! :agree:

[hibsbollah]

It's a wrap, a doddle, an Israeli ceasefire just in time for Barack Obama to have a squeaky-clean inauguration with all the world looking at the streets of Washington rather than the rubble of Gaza. Condi and Ms Livni thought their new arms-monitoring agreement – reached without a single Arab being involved – would work. Ban Ki-moon welcomed the unilateral truce. The great and the good gathered for a Sharm el-Sheikh summit. Only Hamas itself was not consulted. Which led, of course, to a few wrinkles in the plan. First, before declaring its own ceasefire, Hamas fired off more rockets at Israel, proving that Israel's primary war aim – to stop the missiles – had failed. Then Cairo shrugged off the deal because no one was going to set up electronic surveillance equipment on Egyptian soil. And not one European leader travelling to the region suggested the survivors might be helped if Israel, the EU and the US ended the food and fuel siege of Gaza.

After killing hundreds of women and children, Israel was the good guy again, by declaring a unilateral ceasefire that Hamas was certain to break. But Obama smiling on Tuesday. Was not this the reason, after all, why Israel suddenly wanted a truce?
It's a wrap, a doddle, an Israeli ceasefire just in time for Barack Obama to have a squeaky-clean inauguration with all the world looking at the streets of Washington rather than the rubble of Gaza. Condi and Ms Livni thought their new arms-monitoring agreement – reached without a single Arab being involved – would work. Ban Ki-moon welcomed the unilateral truce. The great and the good gathered for a Sharm el-Sheikh summit. Only Hamas itself was not consulted. Which led, of course, to a few wrinkles in the plan. First, before declaring its own ceasefire, Hamas fired off more rockets at Israel, proving that Israel's primary war aim – to stop the missiles – had failed. Then Cairo shrugged off the deal because no one was going to set up electronic surveillance equipment on Egyptian soil. And not one European leader travelling to the region suggested the survivors might be helped if Israel, the EU and the US ended the food and fuel siege of Gaza.

After killing involved – would work. Ban Ki-moon welcomed the unilateral truce. The great and the good gathered for a Sharm el-Sheikh summit. Only Hamas itself was not consulted. Which led, of course, to a few wrinkles in the plan. First, before declaring its own ceasefire, Hamas fired off more rockets at Israel, proving that Israel'shundreds of women and children, Israel was the good guy again, by declaring a unilateral ceasefire that Hamas was certain to break. But
Egypt's objections may be theatre – the US spent £18m last year training Egyptian security men to stop arms smuggling into Gaza and since the US bails out Egypt's economy, ignores the corruption of its regime and goes on backing Hosni Mubarak, there's sure to be a "compromise" very soon.

And Hamas has had its claws cut. Israel's informers in Gaza handed over the locations of its homAfter killing hundreds of women and children, Israel was the good guy again, by declaring a unilateral ceasefire that Hamas was certain to break. But Obama smiling on Tuesday. Was not this the reason, after all, why Israel suddenly wanted a truce?
It's a wrap, a doddle, an Israeli ceasefire just in time for Barack Obama to have a squeaky-clean inauguration with all the world looking at the streets of Washington rather than the rubble of Gaza. Condi and Ms Livni thought their new arms-monitoring agreement – reached without a single Arab being primary war aim – to stop the missiles – had failed. Then Cairo shrugged off the deal because no one was going to set up electronic surveillance equipment on Egyptian soil. And not one European leader travelling to the region suggested the survivors might be helped if Israel, the EU and the US ended the food and fuel siege of Gaza.

After killing hundreds of women and children, Israel was the good guy again, by declaring a unilateral ceasefire that Hamas was certain to break. But
Egypt's objections may be theatre – the US spent £18m last year training Egyptian security men to stop arms smuggling into Gaza and since the US bails out Egypt's economy, ignores the corruption of its regime and goes on backing Hosni Mubarak, there's sure to be a "compromise" very soon.

es and hideouts and the government of Gaza must be wondering if they can ever close down the spy rings. Hamas thought its militia was the Hizbollah – a serious error – and that the world would eventually come to its aid. The world (although not its pompous leaders) felt enormous pity for the Palestinians, but not for the cynical men of Hamas who staged a coup in Gaza in 2007 which killed 151 Palestinians. As usual, the European statesmen appeared hopelessly out of touch with what their own electorates thought.

And history was quite forgotten. The Hamas rockets were the result of the food and fuel siege; Israel broke Hamas's own truce on 4 and 17 November. Forgotten is the fact Hamas won the 2006 elections, although Israel has killed a clutch of the victors.

And there'll be little time for the peacemakers of Sharm el-Sheikh to reflect on the three UN schools targeted by the Israelis and the slaughter of the civilians inside. Poor old Ban Ki-moon. He tried to make his voice heard just before the ceasefire, saying Israel's troops had acted "outrageously" and should be "punished" for the third school killing. Some hope. At a Beirut press conference, he admitted he had failed to get a call through to Israel's Foreign Minister to complain.

It was pathetic. When I asked Mr Ban if he would consider a UN war crimes tribunal in Gaza, he said this would not be for him to "determine". But only a few journalists bothered to listen to him and his officials were quickly folding up the UN flag on the taAnd Hamas has had its claws cut. Israel's informers in Gaza handed over the locations of its homes and hideouts and the government of Gaza must be wondering if they can ever close down the spy rings. Hamas thought its militia was the Hizbollah – a serious error – and that the world would eventually come to its aid. The world (although not its pompous leaders) felt enormous pity for the Palestinians, but not for the cynical men of Hamas who staged a coup in Gaza in 2007 which killed 151 Palestinians. As usual, the European statesmen appeared hopelessly out of touch with what their own electorates thought.

And history was quite forgotten. The Hamas rockets were the result of the food and fuel siege; Israel broke Hamas's own truce on 4 and 17 November. Forgotten is the fact Hamas won the 2006 elections, although Israel has killed a clutch of the victors.

And there'll be little time for the peacemakers of Sharm el-Sheikh to reflect on the three UN schools targeted by the Israelis and the slaughter of the civilians inside. Poor old Ban Ki-moon. He tried to make his voice heard just before the ceasefire, saying Israel's troops had acted "outrageously" and should be "punished" for the third school killing. Some hope. At a Beirut press conference, he admitted he had failed to get a call through to Israel's Foreign Minister to complain.

ble. About time too. Bring back the League of Nations. All is forgiven.

What no one noticed yesterday – not the Arabs nor the Israelis nor the portentous men from Europe – was that the Sharm el-Sheikh meeting last night was opening on the 90th anniversary – to the day – of the opening of the 1919 Paris peace conference which created the modern Middle East. One of its main topics was "the borders of Palestine". There followed the Versailles Treaty. And we know what happened then. The rest really is history. Bring on the ghosts.

Well done Robert Fisk! :agree:

He needs to work on his cut n pasting though:wink:

[Betty Boop]

He needs to work on his cut n pasting though:wink: Woops! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

You forgot to mention that on contact with skin, WP burns right down to the bone. Its use in built up areas would be considered a breach of the Geneva convention. Gaza is the most populous urban area on Earth.:bye:

Check out the footage-'clear and verifiable' proof that Israel committed a war crime here. I wonder if the case will be proceeding to The Hague?:rolleyes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

This is particularly unpleasant viewing, shows what happened to poor lad hit with phosphorus shell while watching TV.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/19/gaza-phosphorus-victim

[hibsdaft]

As I said earlier, I never used to subscribe to anything like that (I had no thoughts either way, about anything of that nature), until I read about it months ago. Since then, I have witnessed several things happen which go along with that belief. I am becoming more certain all the time, that it is actually true.

Like I say though, as with anything that is religion orientated, I can't be 100% certain and I could be completely wrong about the whole thing. We will all just have to wait and see what unfolds.

do you think Barack Obama might be the Antichrist?

[Sir David Gray]

do you think Barack Obama might be the Antichrist?

People who make these kind of predictions, never know for certain. There have been several individuals throughout the years, who have been deemed to be the Antichrist, all of which have evidently been wrong.

I don't know if Obama is the one, but it is possible.

Since his election win in November, Obama has been portrayed by many people, as a Messiah type figure. He is seen as a saviour who claims he will come and bring stability and prosperity to the USA and the world, as a whole. This is the type of person that is supposed to be the Antichrist. Whether it is really Obama, or not, remains to be seen.

Obama's position on Israel will be the crucial issue that will certainly make up my mind, either way. If you listen to Obama talk about the Middle East, he certainly comes across as very much pro-Israel. But if you consider several other things like the views of his former pastor (who is extremely anti-Israel) and some political opponents who claim that Obama is the most pro-Palestinian U.S. President there has ever been, then you begin to get a different picture.

Obama is an extremely intelligent man, he would have realised that it would have been almost impossible for him to be elected as President, if he issued statements against Israel. Now that he is in for the next 4 years (at least), it may be a different story.

I know that a lot of people would be very happy to see America turn their back on Israel, but if that happened, I believe it would be curtains for the USA.

I hope that helps to answers your question.

[Betty Boop]

Gaza is likened to Warsaw Ghetto http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21819.htm

[--------]

Gaza is likened to Warsaw Ghetto http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21819.htm


As I said about 8 pages ago.... :wink:

Can I just make it clear that not all Christians share the extreme dispensationalist views of FalkirkHibee?

And that very few of us are inclined to defend war criminals whatever their nationality?

[Betty Boop]

As I said about 8 pages ago.... :wink:

Can I just make it clear that not all Christians share the extreme dispensationalist views of FalkirkHibee?
And that very few of us are inclined to defend war criminals whatever their nationality?
I was wondering about that, do many Christians hold FH's views, or would they be the views of Christian Zionists?

[degenerated]

Gaza is likened to Warsaw Ghetto http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21819.htm


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

[Sir David Gray]

As I said about 8 pages ago.... :wink:

Can I just make it clear that not all Christians share the extreme dispensationalist views of FalkirkHibee?

And that very few of us are inclined to defend war criminals whatever their nationality?

I wouldn't say that my views are extreme.

Christians who call for people to be killed because they're homosexual or practice abortions are what I would call extreme.


I was wondering about that, do many Christians hold FH's views, or would they be the views of Christian Zionists?

As I've said several times, my views are generally held by Conservative Protestants (though not every Conservative Protestant holds these views). Roman Catholics and other denominations, in general, don't believe in such an ideology.

[Betty Boop]

I wouldn't say that my views are extreme.

Christians who call for people to be killed because they're homosexual or practice abortions are what I would call extreme.



As I've said several times, my views are generally held by Conservative Protestants (though not every Conservative Protestant holds these views). Roman Catholics and other denominations, in general, don't believe in such an ideology.

Are Conservative Protestants not just Christian Fundementalists?

[Sir David Gray]

Are Conservative Protestants not just Christian Fundementalists?

They are loosely affiliated with each other, but not totally the same.

From my understanding, Conservative Protestants are those who are generally traditional about the Christian faith, especially on many social aspects.

Whereas the Christian Fundamentalists are even further to the right. Many of them are opposed to things like dancing, going to the cinema and try to tell people what to wear.

I would not describe myself as a fundamentalist, as it believe that it has connotations of threatening and harming innocent people, in the name of God, which I am strongly opposed to.

To give an example of what I would class as a fundamentalist group, it would be these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church). Every time I read anything about these people, I just despair. What they stand for is just hate filled nonsense, that they try to justify by saying that it's God who hates all these things, so it's OK to do what they're doing. They have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity and I cannot distance myself far enough from those types of views.

That, in my opinion, is Christian Fundamentalism.

Perhaps another term that would better describe me is "Christian Right" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right).

Although that article is generally approaching issues from an American perspective, a lot of my thoughts are similar to what's said here, apart from the bit on the death penalty, which I'm very much against.

[Pete]

All it takes is a couple of nukes over the whole area.


poof...problem solved and no more arguements.

[Betty Boop]

Unseen Gaza http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21833.htm

[DaveF]

I see that the BBC are under pressure to air the DEC Gaza appeal as now ITV, C4 and C5 have all agreed to show it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm

The BBC argues that their impartiality may be in danger if they show it.

Hmmm.......

[LiverpoolHibs]

I see that the BBC are under pressure to air the DEC Gaza appeal as now ITV, C4 and C5 have all agreed to show it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm

The BBC argues that their impartiality may be in danger if they show it.

Hmmm.......

Bottlers.

Bafflingly, the Beeb have apparently had a huge number of complaints about their coverage of the conflict from British Zionists. And they'll be scared this will drive them further.

[Betty Boop]

I see that the BBC are under pressure to air the DEC Gaza appeal as now ITV, C4 and C5 have all agreed to show it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm

The BBC argues that their impartiality may be in danger if they show it.

Hmmm....... The BBC never had a problem broadcasting appeals for Burma and the Congo, what is so different about Gaza? Hang on!!:rolleyes:

[--------]

I wouldn't say that my views are extreme.

Christians who call for people to be killed because they're homosexual or practice abortions are what I would call extreme.

As I've said several times, my views are generally held by Conservative Protestants (though not every Conservative Protestant holds these views). Roman Catholics and other denominations, in general, don't believe in such an ideology.


I asked you about the "left behind" books, and your response suggests that you share the views of the authors of these books, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

I would consider them to be extreme.

And dangerous - check the link....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_LaHaye

[Betty Boop]

Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, have occupied the BBC Headquarters in Glasgow, in protest at the decision not to broadcast the Gaza appeal. :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I asked you about the "left behind" books, and your response suggests that you share the views of the authors of these books, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

I would consider them to be extreme.

And dangerous - check the link....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_LaHaye

I share the same kind of beliefs as the authors, as far as that particular book is concerned. That does not necessarily mean that I agree with them about anything else.

The book is based on End Times, which is what I've been talking about on this thread. I tend to share similar views expressed in that book, although since I haven't read the book, I can't say that I agree or disagree entirely with its content.

However, that link you provide to Tim LaHaye suggests that he has made other comments on unrelated issues, that I would accept are quite extreme. My views on things like homosexuality and Roman Catholicism are nowhere near as extreme as LaHaye's outlook on either subject.

I don't consider my views, on any subject, to be extreme or dangerous.


Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, have occupied the BBC Headquarters in Glasgow, in protest at the decision not to broadcast the Gaza appeal. :greengrin

As someone who supports Israel, I personally am not bothered either way about whether the BBC broadcast the appeal. If they eventually decide to show it, I certainly won't be making any demands that they pull the programme or holding any protest.

But that should go both ways. I believe that the BBC (like all broadcasters) should be fully responsible for the content of their programmes and I don't think action like storming the BBC's offices is appropriate or helpful. I also don't think politicians should be getting involved in something like this either.

By all means, if you feel strongly about something, you have the right to demonstrate and I would never deny anyone that right (so long as it remains peaceful). I just think this kind of thing is a bit OTT.

If they show it, fine. If they don't, fine.

[Hibrandenburg]

Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, have occupied the BBC Headquarters in Glasgow, in protest at the decision not to broadcast the Gaza appeal. :greengrin

See that's when any sympathy I might have had for the cause diminishes. The next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Tony Benn broadcasts the Gaza Appeal live on BBC News.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E21MdXe3BOQ


:not worth

[hibsbollah]

Tony Benn broadcasts the Gaza Appeal live on BBC News.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E21MdXe3BOQ


:not worth

I was privileged to see him speak last year. One of the few politicians who genuinely puts his principles first:thumbsup:

[Betty Boop]

Tony Benn broadcasts the Gaza Appeal live on BBC News.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E21MdXe3BOQ


:not worth Great stuff from Tony Benn! :agree: The Gaza appeal the BBC refused to broadcast http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21846.htm

[khib70]

Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, have occupied the BBC Headquarters in Glasgow, in protest at the decision not to broadcast the Gaza appeal. :greengrin
Those are two different organisations?:cool2:

[Betty Boop]

Those are two different organisations?:cool2: Yes they are. Why?

[--------]

See that's when any sympathy I might have had for the cause diminishes. The next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention.


From the occupation of offices to hijacking airliners?


One step?


REALLY? :cool2:


I do so love these in-depth analyses. :bitchy:

[Hibrandenburg]

From the occupation of offices to hijacking airliners?


One step?


REALLY? :cool2:


I do so love these in-depth analyses. :bitchy:

Yes Doddie really! What do you think the staff there were thinking as 100 nutters commandeered the building? I'm sure that some of them would have been scared stiff.

As for your snide comment it was not only arrogant and patronizing, it was also wrong so your bitchy and cool smileys were also out of place.

To hijack is to commandeer a vehicle by coercion, not a million miles away from doing the same thing to a building and its occupants Doddie eh?

[Arch Stanton]

Yes Doddie really! What do you think the staff there were thinking as 100 nutters commandeered the building? I'm sure that some of them would have been scared stiff.

As for your snide comment it was not only arrogant and patronizing, it was also wrong so your bitchy and cool smileys were also out of place.

To hijack is to commandeer a vehicle by coercion, not a million miles away from doing the same thing to a building and its occupants Doddie eh?

Myself, I don't give a toss as to what the guards were thinking.

Maybe if their children were being deprived of the attention needed to give them relief and sustenance or even to save their lives then I might - but that isn't the case, is it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Myself, I don't give a toss as to what the guards were thinking.

Maybe if their children were being deprived of the attention needed to give them relief and sustenance or even to save their lives then I might - but that isn't the case, is it?

Just because they work for the BBC doesn't mean they agree with them. Anyway I said the staff, not just the guards.

This form of action does more damage to the cause than it helps and is IMO counter productive.

[Sir David Gray]

Just because they work for the BBC doesn't mean they agree with them. Anyway I said the staff, not just the guards.

This form of action does more damage to the cause than it helps and is IMO counter productive.

:agree: I'm not sure of your comparison between breaking into offices and hijacking a plane, but I completely agree with you on your point here.

Acting in such a way serves very little purpose. Of course it gets you (and your cause) a mention on the news. However, it also makes others who might have otherwise supported your efforts, to distance themselves from you and your cause, which is clearly detrimental to what you are trying to achieve.

[Betty Boop]

"Operation Cast Lead" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21852.htm

[hibsbollah]

"Operation Cast Lead" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21852.htm

Very moving montage. I particularly agree with the bit about Israels actions being motivated by racism. When you consider another people's lives less valuable than your own it can make the horrific seem less so.

[Hibrandenburg]

Very moving montage. I particularly agree with the bit about Israels actions being motivated by racism. When you consider another people's lives less valuable than your own it can make the horrific seem less so.

Indeed, the same also applies to religion also.

[--------]

Yes Doddie really! What do you think the staff there were thinking as 100 nutters commandeered the building? I'm sure that some of them would have been scared stiff.

As for your snide comment it was not only arrogant and patronizing, it was also wrong so your bitchy and cool smileys were also out of place.

To hijack is to commandeer a vehicle by coercion, not a million miles away from doing the same thing to a building and its occupants Doddie eh?



I really wonder whether the comparison would have occurred to you had the occupiers been British (i.e. WHITE) students rather than Asians?

And I can only be grateful that my own participation in sit-ins and office occupations in my younger days didn't lead me down the primrose path to 9/11.... :rolleyes:

And you're SURE they were all nutters? :cool2:

[Hibrandenburg]

I really wonder whether the comparison would have occurred to you had the occupiers been British (i.e. WHITE) students rather than Asians?
And I can only be grateful that my own participation in sit-ins and office occupations in my younger days didn't lead me down the primrose path to 9/11.... :rolleyes:

And you're SURE they were all nutters? :cool2:

Ooookay! So now I'm a racist? That is quite an odious accusation that I find very offensive. You know nothing about me and if you did, you would realise how ridiculous that statement is.

I had no idea what ethnic background this mob had and it wouldn't change my opinion in any way whatsoever.

I stand by my statement that to commandeer a building and a vehicle are not worlds apart and comparing office sit-ins with crashing aircraft into buildings killing thousands is ludicrous and a figment of your imagination and not mine.

As for the psychological stability of the participants I can only guess. But is it normal for balanced people to storm offices where men, women and children are and scaring them?

[Betty Boop]

Ooookay! So now I'm a racist? That is quite an odious accusation that I find very offensive. You know nothing about me and if you did, you would realise how ridiculous that statement is.

I had no idea what ethnic background this mob had and it wouldn't change my opinion in any way whatsoever.

I stand by my statement that to commandeer a building and a vehicle are not worlds apart and comparing office sit-ins with crashing aircraft into buildings killing thousands is ludicrous and a figment of your imagination and not mine.

As for the psychological stability of the participants I can only guess. But is it normal for balanced people to storm offices where men, women and children are and scaring them?
The future plane hi-jackers :rolleyes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gphrc-palestine/3226833532/in/set-72157612985084878/

[Hibrandenburg]

The future plane hi-jackers :rolleyes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gphrc-palestine/3226833532/in/set-72157612985084878/

I couldn't care if they were all dressed up as Rupert Bear and pray tell me where did I say that they would be hijacking planes next. Please try and get your facts right before shouting me down because I dare to think differently from you.

[Betty Boop]

See that's when any sympathy I might have had for the cause diminishes. The next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention.


I couldn't care if they were all dressed up as Rupert Bear and pray tell me where did I say that they would be hijacking planes next. Please try and get your facts right before shouting me down because I dare to think differently from you.:wink:

[Arch Stanton]

:wink:

Don't you just hate it when you lose an argument just because of things you've said?

[Woody1985]

I don't think they should show the appeal on the BBC.

My opinion is that the Palestinians voted Hamas in, they knew exactly what was going to happen eventually. I'm not saying it's right but I get teh feeling that they've pretty much brought the most recent events upon themselves. Of course there's thousands of innocent people who probably didn't want Hamas in charge because they knew this sht would happen.

And all for the sake of some shtty bit of land.

FWIW I wish the jews would just give them it back and fk off somewhere else. I'm sick of hearing about all this religious psh. They're like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a sweet FFS.

[Hibrandenburg]

See that's when any sympathy I might have had for the cause diminishes. The next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention.


The future plane hi-jackers :rolleyes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gphrc-palestine/3226833532/in/set-72157612985084878/

Again, where did I say that these people would be hijacking planes next :confused:
If I meant that I would have written "Their next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention." If you're going to quote me then please take the time at least to read my post properly.


Don't you just hate it when you lose an argument just because of things you've said?

Wind your neck in eh!

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think they should show the appeal on the BBC.

My opinion is that the Palestinians voted Hamas in, they knew exactly what was going to happen eventually. I'm not saying it's right but I get teh feeling that they've pretty much brought the most recent events upon themselves. Of course there's thousands of innocent people who probably didn't want Hamas in charge because they knew this sht would happen.

And all for the sake of some shtty bit of land.

FWIW I wish the jews would just give them it back and fk off somewhere else. I'm sick of hearing about all this religious psh. They're like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a sweet FFS.

Get your :tin hat: on Woody and reinforce your doors. The Nazi Stormtroopers and opinion controllers that call themselves socialists will be along any moment now to expurgate your thoughts and hold a sit-in in your livingroom.

[Sir David Gray]

I don't think they should show the appeal on the BBC.

My opinion is that the Palestinians voted Hamas in, they knew exactly what was going to happen eventually. I'm not saying it's right but I get teh feeling that they've pretty much brought the most recent events upon themselves. Of course there's thousands of innocent people who probably didn't want Hamas in charge because they knew this sht would happen.

And all for the sake of some shtty bit of land.

FWIW I wish the jews would just give them it back and fk off somewhere else. I'm sick of hearing about all this religious psh. They're like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a sweet FFS.

Dozens of politicians have spent six decades trying to sort this conflict out, without any sign of progress and you've just come up with a 'solution' within a 2 minute post. :greengrin

For what it's worth, I actually agree with what you've said, in principle, in the first part of that post.

[Arch Stanton]

Wind your neck in eh!

Dearie me - why the pretentious was of saying ***** off? This is a football forum after all - good working class values and all that.

If you were wanting a private argument then you might consider that a public messageboard isn't a good choice. :agree:

[Arch Stanton]

I don't think they should show the appeal on the BBC.

My opinion is that the Palestinians voted Hamas in, they knew exactly what was going to happen eventually. I'm not saying it's right but I get teh feeling that they've pretty much brought the most recent events upon themselves. Of course there's thousands of innocent people who probably didn't want Hamas in charge because they knew this sht would happen.

And all for the sake of some shtty bit of land.

FWIW I wish the jews would just give them it back and fk off somewhere else. I'm sick of hearing about all this religious psh. They're like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a sweet FFS.

Americans have been voting in war-mongering governments for years but that wouldn't stop me from sympathising when they become victims.

[Hibrandenburg]

Dearie me - why the pretentious was of saying ***** off? This is a football forum after all - good working class values and all that.

If you were wanting a private argument then you might consider that a public messageboard isn't a good choice. :agree:

Aye it's a Football forum, one that has women and kids on it as well and from what I can remember from my working class roots, I know that respect belongs to working class values as well.

So again wind your neck in. Because you obviously don't understand this phrase I'll explain, please read slowly.

Wind your neck in = Given as advice to someone you'd like to sit down and shut up, whilst also pointing out that they are wrong.

[hibsbollah]

Get your :tin hat: on Woody and reinforce your doors. The Nazi Stormtroopers and opinion controllers that call themselves socialists will be along any moment now to expurgate your thoughts and hold a sit-in in your livingroom.


Since when did objecting to killing innocent civilians and objecting to facism become a uniquely 'socialist' activity? There are plenty of people from across the political spectrum and across the world that can see what Israel is doing is terrible. Sounds like you're just losing the argument and having a tantrum:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Since when did objecting to killing innocent civilians and objecting to facism become a uniquely 'socialist' activity? There are plenty of people from across the political spectrum and across the world that can see what Israel is doing is terrible. Sounds like you're just losing the argument and having a tantrum:wink:

Didn't want to have an argument in the first place, joined the debate to have a debate but some on here can't tell the difference between debate and argument. Some of the unfounded almost libelous insults I've had thrown at me peeved me right off.

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread I'm not an expert on this subject, but I can see fault on both sides, so to say I'm losing an argument because I refuse to give one side the blame over the other is a bit thin don't you think?

[Arch Stanton]

Wind your neck in = Given as advice to someone you'd like to sit down and shut up, whilst also pointing out that they are wrong.

Oh really? That bit escapes me I'm afraid - wrong in what respect? Wrong in highlighting that you had made two totally contradictory statements?

[hibsbollah]

Didn't want to have an argument in the first place, joined the debate to have a debate but some on here can't tell the difference between debate and argument. Some of the unfounded almost libelous insults I've had thrown at me peeved me right off.

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread I'm not an expert on this subject, but I can see fault on both sides, so to say I'm losing an argument because I refuse to give one side the blame over the other is a bit thin don't you think?

I'm not saying that. Im saying you look like youve lost whatever argument youve been making by chucking around irrelevant comments about socialists and Nazi stormtroopers:confused:

[Dashing Bob S]

Having been to Gaza City several years ago, and seen at first hand the conditions the Palestinian's endure, and also the discrimination practiced against Palestinians in Israel, I'm not surprised that so many of them have thrown their hands in with an evil, twisted bunch of flat-earther Islamic supremacist nutters like Hammas. You have to be desperate to mix in that company, and Palestinian's are nothing if not that. Drink in the bars of Tel Aviv and you'll hear sentiments expressed towards Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular, that are akin the most vile racism exponded anywhere and at any time in history.

This, of course, is exactly what the Zionist racist Nazi supremacists in the Israeli Government want, whatever they protest to the contrary. They need Hammas to keep the average Israeli in a state of rage and fear, and thus them in power, shutting out progressive elements in Israel society - and closet anti-Semites should note that these do exist.

The anti-Jewish fascists of Hammas, in turn, need those militaristic neo-Nazis of the Israeli Government just as much. A genuinely reforming radical non-expansionist Israeli administration would meet Palestinian aspirations, thus immediately cutting off their power base.

When you have intransigent fascists and racists representing both the Palestinians and the Israeli's, and feeding off each other, there is little room for proper debate and a reforming dialogue.

But while both people's are ill-served by their leaderships, who thrive in the current climate of fear, the change has to start with Israel; they, after all are supposed to be the mature democracy. They can start by removing those fascist hypocrites from office, who cheapen the legacy of the greatest attrocity know to humanity, by holding it up as a justification for ther own brand of Nazi tyranny. The Palestinian's can then get rid of an organisation that has no respect for their lives, and merely wants to use them as pawns in some manically religious global supremacist nonsense.

[Woody1985]

Having been to Gaza City several years ago, and seen at first hand the conditions the Palestinian's endure, and also the discrimination practiced against Palestinians in Israel, I'm not surprised that so many of them have thrown their hands in with an evil, twisted bunch of flat-earther Islamic supremacist nutters like Hammas. You have to be desperate to mix in that company, and Palestinian's are nothing if not that. Drink in the bars of Tel Aviv and you'll hear sentiments expressed towards Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular, that are akin the most vile racism exponded anywhere and at any time in history.

This, of course, is exactly what the Zionist racist Nazi supremacists in the Israeli Government want, whatever they protest to the contrary. They need Hammas to keep the average Israeli in a state of rage and fear, and thus them in power, shutting out progressive elements in Israel society - and closet anti-Semites should note that these do exist.

The anti-Jewish fascists of Hammas, in turn, need those militaristic neo-Nazis of the Israeli Government just as much. A genuinely reforming radical non-expansionist Israeli administration would meet Palestinian aspirations, thus immediately cutting off their power base.

When you have intransigent fascists and racists representing both the Palestinians and the Israeli's, and feeding off each other, there is little room for proper debate and a reforming dialogue.

But while both people's are ill-served by their leaderships, who thrive in the current climate of fear, the change has to start with Israel; they, after all are supposed to be the mature democracy. They can start by removing those fascist hypocrites from office, who cheapen the legacy of the greatest attrocity know to humanity, by holding it up as a justification for ther own brand of Nazi tyranny. The Palestinian's can then get rid of an organisation that has no respect for their lives, and merely wants to use them as pawns in some manically religious global supremacist nonsense.

Although at the same time, if that were to happen then the new government would be walked all over by Hamas.

With what would probably be seen as a sign of weakness by the Isrealies, would Hamas not then try to capitalise and build on their power from there rather than have it diminish?

I think they're both destined to be there until a WW starts or one of them wipes out the other. I just wish they would do something without our country being involved. I hope we don't end up in a WW where our soldiers, and maybe civilians (if they were called up), die because of their problems over some mythical story that happened thousands of years ago.

[Betty Boop]

Although at the same time, if that were to happen then the new government would be walked all over by Hamas.

With what would probably be seen as a sign of weakness by the Isrealies, would Hamas not then try to capitalise and build on their power from there rather than have it diminish?

I think they're both destined to be there until a WW starts or one of them wipes out the other. I just wish they would do something without our country being involved. I hope we don't end up in a WW where our soldiers, and maybe civilians (if they were called up), die because of their problems over some mythical story that happened thousands of years ago. Maybe our country shouldn't have got involved in the first place, the Balfour Declaration?

[Woody1985]

Maybe our country shouldn't have got involved in the first place, the Balfour Declaration?

We probably shouldn't have.

[Sir David Gray]

Although at the same time, if that were to happen then the new government would be walked all over by Hamas.

With what would probably be seen as a sign of weakness by the Isrealies, would Hamas not then try to capitalise and build on their power from there rather than have it diminish?

I think they're both destined to be there until a WW starts or one of them wipes out the other. I just wish they would do something without our country being involved. I hope we don't end up in a WW where our soldiers, and maybe civilians (if they were called up), die because of their problems over some mythical story that happened thousands of years ago.

It's quite ironic that you call it a "mythical story" but at the same time, that "mythical story" goes along with your view that this conflict will end up in a huge war.


Maybe our country shouldn't have got involved in the first place, the Balfour Declaration?

Britain's involvement from the very start was shambolic. They promised the Jews one thing and promised the Arabs something very different. They tried to make deals that would please both sides, which was never going to work.

[Hibrandenburg]

Dearie me - why the pretentious was of saying ***** off? This is a football forum after all - good working class values and all that.

If you were wanting a private argument then you might consider that a public messageboard isn't a good choice. :agree:


Oh really? That bit escapes me I'm afraid - wrong in what respect? Wrong in highlighting that you had made two totally contradictory statements?

I was going to ask you to show me where I contradicted myself, but thats what you want isn't it, an argument? However because you've still not understood or not taken the time to understand what I wrote in the first place I'm going to leave it there and let the folks on here continue their debate.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not saying that. Im saying you look like youve lost whatever argument youve been making by chucking around irrelevant comments about socialists and Nazi stormtroopers:confused:

Yes I have been, you're correct. But that had less to do with losing an argument and more to do with being peeved off at thinly diguised accussations of me being racist.

Now back to the thread, I was finding it quite informative until somebody got abusive and nobody had to get his oar in as well. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Having been to Gaza City several years ago, and seen at first hand the conditions the Palestinian's endure, and also the discrimination practiced against Palestinians in Israel, I'm not surprised that so many of them have thrown their hands in with an evil, twisted bunch of flat-earther Islamic supremacist nutters like Hammas. You have to be desperate to mix in that company, and Palestinian's are nothing if not that. Drink in the bars of Tel Aviv and you'll hear sentiments expressed towards Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular, that are akin the most vile racism exponded anywhere and at any time in history.

This, of course, is exactly what the Zionist racist Nazi supremacists in the Israeli Government want, whatever they protest to the contrary. They need Hammas to keep the average Israeli in a state of rage and fear, and thus them in power, shutting out progressive elements in Israel society - and closet anti-Semites should note that these do exist.

The anti-Jewish fascists of Hammas, in turn, need those militaristic neo-Nazis of the Israeli Government just as much. A genuinely reforming radical non-expansionist Israeli administration would meet Palestinian aspirations, thus immediately cutting off their power base.

When you have intransigent fascists and racists representing both the Palestinians and the Israeli's, and feeding off each other, there is little room for proper debate and a reforming dialogue.

But while both people's are ill-served by their leaderships, who thrive in the current climate of fear, the change has to start with Israel; they, after all are supposed to be the mature democracy. They can start by removing those fascist hypocrites from office, who cheapen the legacy of the greatest attrocity know to humanity, by holding it up as a justification for ther own brand of Nazi tyranny. The Palestinian's can then get rid of an organisation that has no respect for their lives, and merely wants to use them as pawns in some manically religious global supremacist nonsense.


That sounds like a good summary of the situation as I see it. Both sides have to take some blame before any sort of lasting peace can be found and IMO we're a long way off that at present and I really can't see Israel making the first move.

[--------]

Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, have occupied the BBC Headquarters in Glasgow, in protest at the decision not to broadcast the Gaza appeal. :greengrin


See that's when any sympathy I might have had for the cause diminishes. The next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention.


These are the posts in question.

The first specifically mentions the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the Stop the War Coalition in connection with the occupation of BBC Scotland offices in Glasgow.

Yours states that protest action like this occupation diminishes your sympathy for "the cause". You go on to say that "the next step" is "hijacking airliners".

Which seems to me to be a very serious allegation to make against the PSC and the StWC - you're saying that these folks are one step away from the guys responsible for 9/11.

It's a common practice of Fascists to equate ALL civil protest as equally dangerous to the community.

Treat protest marchers, leaflet distributors, those who undertake civil disobedience, those who say "no" in ways that can't be ignored while yet not hurting anyone - treat them as the same as violent criminals, and you have the means and the justification to silence dissent entirely.

And before you say it, I'm NOT accusing you of being a Fascist - I leave that to your own conscience to decide - but I AM warning you that that's the way Fascists think and act.

[IndieHibby]

I was privileged to see him speak last year. One of the few politicians who genuinely puts his principles first:thumbsup:

That's the problem. Politicians aren't meant to work towards principles. They are governed by laws and are duty-bound to represent their constituents. This is demcracy. REPRESENTATION.

It has been a long time since this drove policy in our 'democracy'.

Tony Benn has always been nothing other than a representative of his own views.

Nice guy, though.

[IndieHibby]

Myself, I don't give a toss as to what the guards were thinking.

Maybe if their children were being deprived of the attention needed to give them relief and sustenance or even to save their lives then I might - but that isn't the case, is it?


"The end must never justify the means"

[IndieHibby]

Again, where did I say that these people would be hijacking planes next :confused:
If I meant that I would have written "Their next step is hijacking airplanes to get attention." If you're going to quote me then please take the time at least to read my post properly.



Wind your neck in eh!

Hiberlin, I feel for you. Some people will twist your words whatever you say. I have been here with a few of them before. It gets boring after a while.

[IndieHibby]

Get your :tin hat: on Woody and reinforce your doors. The Nazi Stormtroopers and opinion controllers that call themselves socialists will be along any moment now to expurgate your thoughts and hold a sit-in in your livingroom.

:faf:

[Betty Boop]

Hiberlin, I feel for you. Some people will twist your words whatever you say. I have been here with a few of them before. It gets boring after a while.
Nobody twisted his words.

[IndieHibby]

Yours states that protest action like this occupation diminishes your sympathy for "the cause". You go on to say that "the next step" is "hijacking airliners".



In his defence, he was saying that if you subscribe to the logic which justifies terrorising innocent people by hijacking building, then it would be reasonable to assume that the next step IN LOGIC, is to justyfy hijacking a plane and terrorising people, for same said obejctive.

Which is very different from from prediciting that these people WILL do these things. His criticism was of the justification behind hijacking the building.

The ends must never justify the means. Otherwise you become a Hitler, Stalin, Pol-pot type character.

People who say "nasty event A has happened therfore I will do nasty deed B in order to achieve justice for nasty event A" just don't understand that two wrongs do not make a right.

Some people on this board need to read more and mock less.

[IndieHibby]

Nobody twisted his words.

That's your opinion.

[Woody1985]

It's quite ironic that you call it a "mythical story" but at the same time, that "mythical story" goes along with your view that this conflict will end up in a huge war.



Britain's involvement from the very start was shambolic. They promised the Jews one thing and promised the Arabs something very different. They tried to make deals that would please both sides, which was never going to work.

It's also ironic that you're the one who's tried to make me look like an rse when I never actually said that this particular conflict would end in a huge war. :faf: Go back and read what I said....

[--------]

Nobquote]ody twisted his words.


That's your opinion.

No, I don't think so. It's quite clear to me that according to his post, the next step up/down/along from occupying offices is hijacking an airliner.



In his defence, he was saying that if you subscribe to the logic which justifies terrorising innocent people by hijacking building, then it would be reasonable to assume that the next step IN LOGIC, is to justyfy hijacking a plane and terrorising people, for same said obejctive.

Which is very different from from prediciting that these people WILL do these things. His criticism was of the justification behind hijacking the building.

The ends must never justify the means. Otherwise you become a Hitler, Stalin, Pol-pot type character.

People who say "nasty event A has happened therfore I will do nasty deed B in order to achieve justice for nasty event A" just don't understand that two wrongs do not make a right.

Some people on this board need to read more and mock less.


You're splitting hairs here, mate. If I say that A follows B logically, then I'm saying that A will follow B in reality. Logic relates to reality, or it isn't logic.

And the problem I see is that both sides of the divide in Palestine believe that the ends justify the means, but the Israelis have lots more of the means to achieve their ends, plus the support - overt and covert, of the USA and the UK in doing so.

I agree 100% with your last sentence BTW. I suggest you take it to heart. :devil:

[LiverpoolHibs]

That's the problem. Politicians aren't meant to work towards principles. They are governed by laws and are duty-bound to represent their constituents. This is demcracy. REPRESENTATION.

It has been a long time since this drove policy in our 'democracy'.

Tony Benn has always been nothing other than a representative of his own views.

Nice guy, though.

Absolutely laughable, as an M.P. he was elected on the back of his views/policies. That's sort of the point...

[LiverpoolHibs]

"The end must never justify the means"

Meh, that's very flippant, trite and myopic.

[majorhibs]

:wink:
No, I don't think so. It's quite clear to me that according to his post, the next step up/down/along from occupying offices is hijacking an airliner.





You're splitting hairs here, mate. If I say that A follows B logically, then I'm saying that A will follow B in reality. Logic relates to reality, or it isn't logic.

And the problem I see is that both sides of the divide in Palestine believe that the ends justify the means, but the Israelis have lots more of the means to achieve their ends, plus the support - overt and covert, of the USA and the UK in doing so.

I agree 100% with your last sentence BTW. I suggest you take it to heart. :devil:

Whats quite clear to you, imo, is not clear to me at all, cos imo your a smug fool who totally & patronisingly talks a whole heap of s*#te the vast majority of the time, on most topics. :devil: And afore ye start, my views on this topic are I dont have a clue what the answers are, much the same as virtually everyone else who has come anywhere near it. Maybe not with quite as much belief in themselves being right like you do right enough.. :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

:wink:

Whats quite clear to you, imo, is not clear to me at all, cos imo your a smug fool who totally & patronisingly talks a whole heap of s*#te the vast majority of the time, on most topics. :devil: And afore ye start, my views on this topic are I dont have a clue what the answers are, much the same as virtually everyone else who has come anywhere near it. Maybe not with quite as much belief in themselves being right like you do right enough.. :wink:

Christ, your ability to berate people for actually being educated on a given topic is quite remarkable.

When your entire rhetorical device in any argument relies on accusing people of smugness/patronising/being opinionated you should see that there's a problem.

[majorhibs]

Christ, your ability to berate people for actually being educated on a given topic is quite remarkable.

When your entire rhetorical device in any argument relies on accusing people of smugness/patronising/being opinionated you should see that there's a problem.

Ditto to you. Junior Doddie.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ditto to you. Junior Doddie.

Another informative and cogently argued point. Kudos.

[hibsbollah]

That's the problem. Politicians aren't meant to work towards principles. They are governed by laws and are duty-bound to represent their constituents. This is demcracy. REPRESENTATION.

It has been a long time since this drove policy in our 'democracy'.

Tony Benn has always been nothing other than a representative of his own views.

Nice guy, though.

I couldnt disagree more, politicians are nothing without principles. MPs are duty bound to represent their constituents, yes, but the electors elect the representative MP knowing what his/her individual world view is. Hence Tony Benn, who has always been transparent about where he is on the political spectrum (his principles, if you like), and who was repeatedly voted in by the voters of Chesterfield, represents the will of the electorate. He is, in point of fact, retired from the House of Commons. In one of my favourite quotes he said he was stepping down from being an MP because he 'wanted to spend more time in politics':faf:

Anyway, i think i'll retire from this thread, it looks like its going downhill fast:rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

These are the posts in question.

The first specifically mentions the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the Stop the War Coalition in connection with the occupation of BBC Scotland offices in Glasgow.

Yours states that protest action like this occupation diminishes your sympathy for "the cause". You go on to say that "the next step" is "hijacking airliners".

Which seems to me to be a very serious allegation to make against the PSC and the StWC - you're saying that these folks are one step away from the guys responsible for 9/11.
It's a common practice of Fascists to equate ALL civil protest as equally dangerous to the community.

Treat protest marchers, leaflet distributors, those who undertake civil disobedience, those who say "no" in ways that can't be ignored while yet not hurting anyone - treat them as the same as violent criminals, and you have the means and the justification to silence dissent entirely.

And before you say it, I'm NOT accusing you of being a Fascist - I leave that to your own conscience to decide - but I AM warning you that that's the way Fascists think and act.

No Doddie, you're saying that. What happened on 9/11 went way beyond hijacking. Check the dictionary and read what hijacking means and when I wrote hijacking I meant what the dictionary defines as hijacking and not what you're fantasy believes it to mean.

Also to use protest marchers and leaflet distributors as a comparison to people illegally commandeering an office building is a figment of your imagination and again is twisting what I actually wrote.

You did accuse me of being a facist, it was thinly veiled but the accusation was there. Also it's a common practice for the radical left to accuse anyone that doesn't agree with them of being Nazis (ala Rick from "The Young Ones").

As for my conscience, well it's quite clear and I can live with it thank you.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hiberlin, I feel for you. Some people will twist your words whatever you say. I have been here with a few of them before. It gets boring after a while.

:agree: I am sincerely bored with it stueyn. The reason I can't leave it though is I feel there has been an unjustified attack on my character from people who know Jack **** about me. That is a real shame as I was learning a lot about the original subject of this thread until it deteriorated into a slagging match.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nobody twisted his words.

Yes they did. You!

[Hibrandenburg]

Christ, your ability to berate people for actually being educated on a given topic is quite remarkable.

When your entire rhetorical device in any argument relies on accusing people of smugness/patronising/being opinionated you should see that there's a problem.

What if it's true though?

[LiverpoolHibs]

What if it's true though?

It isn't, it seems to be synonymous with 'informed' for him.

[Hibrandenburg]

It isn't, it seems to be synonymous with 'informed' for him.

Opinions eh! But in this case I have the same one as majorhibs.

[majorhibs]

It isn't, it seems to be synonymous with 'informed' for him.

You and yer old man Doddie know when I'm feeling patronised by someone I feel is smug, as well as being the font of all knowledge, then? You informed guys are impressive.. :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Opinions eh! But in this case I have the same one as majorhibs.

Uninformed?

[majorhibs]

Uninformed?

Another informative & cogently argued point?

[Hibrandenburg]

Uninformed?

From my perspective and only mine I may add, I find the poster Doddie extremely patronising and smug. He had an unprovoked go at me because my view of the circumstances of the BBC protest didn't agree with his. Now if he doesn't agree with me fair enough, but his veiled accusations of me being a Nazi were well out of order.

[LiverpoolHibs]

You and yer old man Doddie know when I'm feeling patronised by someone I feel is smug, as well as being the font of all knowledge, then? You informed guys are impressive.. :wink:

No, just that it's your go-to position in any given argument. An attempt to garner empathy by acting as the archetypal 'common man'. As I've said before, it's very transparent.


Another informative & cogently argued point?

:tee hee:

I'll give you that one.

[majorhibs]

From my perspective and only mine I may add, I find the poster Doddie extremely patronising and smug. He had an unprovoked go at me because my view of the circumstances of the BBC protest didn't agree with his. Now if he doesn't agree with me fair enough, but his veiled accusations of me being a Nazi were well out of order.

Aye but Doddie does have a bit of a history of this. Called me a Nazi one time, in a post you had contributed to as well. Obviously something he and others are extremely well informed about, but maybe just cropping up once or twice too often... :hmmm:

[Sir David Gray]

Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway...

Back to the original thread subject. :wink:

I see that the ceasefire's holding up well. :rolleyes:

First of all, last Tuesday a bomb exploded on the Israeli side of the border, killing a soldier. Israel then briefly responded with air strikes and a ground incursion.

There have also been several Hamas rockets fired into Israel since the ceasefire began two weeks ago, the latest of which landed close to the city of Ashkelon yesterday. Funnily enough I haven't seen that reported on the news, perhaps they just forgot.

I just wish people would believe me when I say that a peaceful resolution to this conflict won't happen any time soon.

I believe that the Israeli elections are held a week on Tuesday (10th February). I also believe that the conservative Likud party are currently ahead in the opinion polls. They are staunchly supportive of the West Bank and Gaza Strip being under Jewish control.

If I am right and they become the next ruling party of Israel, then i'm not sure how their policies will sit with Barack Obama and I'm pretty certain that Hamas won't be too enamoured either, nor will the wider international community, if they try to threaten this so called "roadmap to peace" of establishing a two state solution. If Likud wins these upcoming elections, I will be even more convinced than I already am as to where I believe this will end up.

Just thought I would attempt to bring the thread back on topic, since the conversation seems to have wandered off in a different direction, in the past couple of days!

I really hope the admins don't close this thread, because of those posts. I still think there's some interesting discussions to be had. Instead, I hope the posts are just deleted, if need be, and we can get back on topic.

[horseman]

In his defence, he was saying that if you subscribe to the logic which justifies terrorising innocent people by hijacking building, then it would be reasonable to assume that the next step IN LOGIC, is to justyfy hijacking a plane and terrorising people, for same said obejctive.

Which is very different from from prediciting that these people WILL do these things. His criticism was of the justification behind hijacking the building.

The ends must never justify the means. Otherwise you become a Hitler, Stalin, Pol-pot type character.

People who say "nasty event A has happened therfore I will do nasty deed B in order to achieve justice for nasty event A" just don't understand that two wrongs do not make a right.

Some people on this board need to read more and mock less.


sorry stueyn but logic is not something that these people understand . it is highly unlikely that you'll ever get through to someone who thinks that hijacking a building , especially an outlet of the press , is something to be proud of .

a fair way to demonstrate against something with which the public at large disagree , in a democracy , would be to have a march . the one through the center of edinburgh rallied a grand total of 4000 , if that . if it had really caught the public imagination then there would have been 10000 or 100000 , which is not unheard of in edinburgh .

therefore to take over a government building which speaks for most , in a democracy , is no more than anarchism . is this how we want to live our lives ? does doddie , liverpoolhibs and bettyboop think they could do this in the palestine without being machine gunned ?

only in the comfort of a democracy could they get away with this and some of the other choice statements i have seen them post .

[Betty Boop]

From my perspective and only mine I may add, I find the poster Doddie extremely patronising and smug. He had an unprovoked go at me because my view of the circumstances of the BBC protest didn't agree with his. Now if he doesn't agree with me fair enough, but his veiled accusations of me being a Nazi were well out of order. This from the guy who refers to posters on this thread as Nazi stormtroopers and opinion controllers. :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

This from the guy who refers to posters on this thread as Nazi stormtroopers and opinion controllers. :rolleyes:

Difference is I didn't name anyone. But if you feel the cap fits :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

sorry stueyn but logic is not something that these people understand . it is highly unlikely that you'll ever get through to someone who thinks that hijacking a building , especially an outlet of the press , is something to be proud of .

a fair way to demonstrate against something with which the public at large disagree , in a democracy , would be to have a march . the one through the center of edinburgh rallied a grand total of 4000 , if that . if it had really caught the public imagination then there would have been 10000 or 100000 , which is not unheard of in edinburgh .

therefore to take over a government building which speaks for most , in a democracy , is no more than anarchism . is this how we want to live our lives ? does doddie , liverpoolhibs and bettyboop think they could do this in the palestine without being machine gunned ?

only in the comfort of a democracy could they get away with this and some of the other choice statements i have seen them post .

I'm struggling to see what your point is here. :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway...

Back to the original thread subject. :wink:

I see that the ceasefire's holding up well. :rolleyes:

First of all, last Tuesday a bomb exploded on the Israeli side of the border, killing a soldier. Israel then briefly responded with air strikes and a ground incursion.

There have also been several Hamas rockets fired into Israel since the ceasefire began two weeks ago, the latest of which landed close to the city of Ashkelon yesterday. Funnily enough I haven't seen that reported on the news, perhaps they just forgot.

I just wish people would believe me when I say that a peaceful resolution to this conflict won't happen any time soon.

I believe that the Israeli elections are held a week on Tuesday (10th February). I also believe that the conservative Likud party are currently ahead in the opinion polls. They are staunchly supportive of the West Bank and Gaza Strip being under Jewish control.

If I am right and they become the next ruling party of Israel, then i'm not sure how their policies will sit with Barack Obama and I'm pretty certain that Hamas won't be too enamoured either, nor will the wider international community, if they try to threaten this so called "roadmap to peace" of establishing a two state solution. If Likud wins these upcoming elections, I will be even more convinced than I already am as to where I believe this will end up.

Just thought I would attempt to bring the thread back on topic, since the conversation seems to have wandered off in a different direction, in the past couple of days!

I really hope the admins don't close this thread, because of those posts. I still think there's some interesting discussions to be had. Instead, I hope the posts are just deleted, if need be, and we can get back on topic.

Disingenuousness heaped upon lies. 'First of all' a Palestinian farmer was shot dead on his farm by the IDF as I'm sure you well know. So yet again it is Israel who has broken the ceasefire.

And there have been numerous Israeli incursions post-ceasefire and prior to the roadside bomb, which was not even claimed by Hamas (who aren't exactly wont to do so).

Your claims of pro-Palestinian media bias is nothing more than laughable in light of the first point.

[horseman]

I'm struggling to see what your point is here. :confused:


keep struggling friend and you may just get there :wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

keep struggling friend and you may just get there :wink:

I doubt it. How are the levels of possible protest in different political systems in any way relevant to anything?

[horseman]

I doubt it. How are the levels of possible protest in different political systems in any way relevant to anything?

do you really believe you could stage a peaceful sit down protest in a palistinian state run broadcasting studio ? do you think the police or militia would stand for it ? i reckon that would be seen as some sort of insurrection and at the very least the perpetrators would feel the wooden end of an assault rifle ........

[LiverpoolHibs]

do you really believe you could stage a peaceful sit down protest in a palistinian state run broadcasting studio ? do you think the police or militia would stand for it ? i reckon that would be seen as some sort of insurrection and at the very least the perpetrators would feel the wooden end of an assault rifle ........

Maybe so, but so what? :confused:

[--------]

Aye but Doddie does have a bit of a history of this. Called me a Nazi one time, in a post you had contributed to as well. Obviously something he and others are extremely well informed about, but maybe just cropping up once or twice too often... :hmmm:


Read the post. I didn't accuse - I made a point and suggested it was am matter for consideration.

We're both entitled to call it as we see it.

Or are we?

[horseman]

Maybe so, but so what? :confused:

soooooo you wouldn't do it there would you ? not when there is a risk of you losing your life or your liberty .

i personally believe the bbc would have shown the appeal had there been a huge show of public support for the cause , which there wasn't . the paltry 4000 who showed up for the march in edinburgh doesn't equate to a massive groundswell of support . unfortunately for your cause the man in the street has his own worries .

[LiverpoolHibs]

soooooo you wouldn't do it there would you ? not when there is a risk of you losing your life or your liberty .

Again, so what?! This is baffling.


i personally believe the bbc would have shown the appeal had there been a huge show of public support for the cause , which there wasn't . the paltry 4000 who showed up for the march in edinburgh doesn't equate to a massive groundswell of support . unfortunately for your cause the man in the street has his own worries .

Four thousand was a police estimate, which are rarely accurate; and more to the point wasn't a protest about the BBC's decision (which was made about two weeks after the main marches) it was about Israeli actions in Gaza. The BBC was never going to give in, especially after Sky also refused to show the appeal.

[IndieHibby]

You're splitting hairs here, mate. If I say that A follows B logically, then I'm saying that A will follow B in reality. Logic relates to reality, or it isn't logic.

And the problem I see is that both sides of the divide in Palestine believe that the ends justify the means, but the Israelis have lots more of the means to achieve their ends, plus the support - overt and covert, of the USA and the UK in doing so.

I agree 100% with your last sentence BTW. I suggest you take it to heart. :devil:

Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time:

Do you agree that, if 'John' is capable of justifying the hijack of a building, in order to make a protest, then he is also capable of justifying hijacking an aeroplane? If not, why not?

Do you agree that 'justifying' something is not the same thing as actually 'doing' it? If not, why not?

On your last point - I declare that your credibility now stands or falls on your production of evidence from this thread that I have mocked someone. If you can't do that, then I suggest you kindly move along (from replying to my posts). Otherwise you are taking a liberty with my polite nature of attempting to reply to all posts in reponse to mine.

[IndieHibby]

Absolutely laughable, as an M.P. he was elected on the back of his views/policies. That's sort of the point...

I did think this post was one of my weaker ones when I posted it :wink:

'Laughable'? Bit harsh, no? Democracy being the will of the people, not the will of the individual?

[IndieHibby]

Meh, that's very flippant, trite and myopic.

So your principles are OK, but mine are 'flippant', 'trite' and 'myopic'? Very good....

[IndieHibby]

:agree: I am sincerely bored with it stueyn. The reason I can't leave it though is I feel there has been an unjustified attack on my character from people who know Jack **** about me. That is a real shame as I was learning a lot about the original subject of this thread until it deteriorated into a slagging match.

It's always the same ones who make it personal though. For footy fans, it surprising how many people just do not know how to play the ball, not the man....

[LiverpoolHibs]

I did think this post was one of my weaker ones when I posted it :wink:

'Laughable'? Bit harsh, no? Democracy being the will of the people, not the will of the individual?

Possibly, apologies for the tone.


So your principles are OK, but mine are 'flippant', 'trite' and 'myopic'? Very good....

Sorry again, but it is a pretty trite and meaningless statement to make.


It's always the same ones who make it personal though. For footy fans, it surprising how many people just do not know how to play the ball, not the man....

Hiberlin has 'played the man' as much as anyone else on this thread, though.

[horseman]

Again, so what?! This is baffling.



Four thousand was a police estimate, which are rarely accurate; and more to the point wasn't a protest about the BBC's decision (which was made about two weeks after the main marches) it was about Israeli actions in Gaza. The BBC was never going to give in, especially after Sky also refused to show the appeal.


i was working in market street that day and watched the parade go by and if that was 4000 then the hibs home gate averages around 25000 . ...... if that was a protest of around say 50000 and was mirrored all over the land then the bbc would have had to show the appeal . the simple fact is people at large aren't really concerned .

the only protest about the bbc's decision was the ridiculous hijacking of the bbc building in glasgow , which served exactly what purpose ?

[IndieHibby]

Possibly, apologies for the tone.



Sorry again, but it is a pretty trite and meaningless statement to make.



Hiberlin has 'played the man' as much as anyone else on this thread, though.

Apologies accepted. I can't speak for Hiberlin, and if he has played the man, then fair enough. I don't know either way....

You are entitled to think my statement was trite, of course. However, I feel that the issue here was whether or not they were justified in hijacking the building. I was challenging a post which stated that someone didn't care about the BBC employees as the suffering of Palestinian children was greater and therefore the hijack was justified. The meaning of my statemtent "the end (relief of Palestinian suffering) must never justify ('it was ok') the means (hijack)"

[LiverpoolHibs]

i was working in market street that day and watched the parade go by and if that was 4000 then the hibs home gate averages around 25000 . ...... if that was a protest of around say 50000 and was mirrored all over the land then the bbc would have had to show the appeal . the simple fact is people at large aren't really concerned .

the only protest about the bbc's decision was the ridiculous hijacking of the bbc building in glasgow , which served exactly what purpose ?

This is some logic. As I've already stated and you now seem to accept, the BBC didn't make the decision not to show the appeal until around two weeks after the main marches. The marches were in no way directed at the BBC. The Glasgow occupation wasn't the only protest at the BBC's decision, it's just the only one mentioned on this thread.

And why would the apathy of the general populace have any bearing on what is right?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Oh, and it would be good if people could stop using 'hijack' incorrectly.

:wink::greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

Apologies accepted. I can't speak for Hiberlin, and if he has played the man, then fair enough. I don't know either way....

You are entitled to think my statement was trite, of course. However, I feel that the issue here was whether or not they were justified in hijacking the building. I was challenging a post which stated that someone didn't care about the BBC employees as the suffering of Palestinian children was greater and therefore the hijack was justified. The meaning of my statemtent "the end (relief of Palestinian suffering) must never justify ('it was ok') the means (hijack)"

I can only imagine (and I don't think this is much of a stretch) you would have been as vociferous in your condemnation of the Tiananmen Square occupiers or the sit-ins of the black civil rights activists in 1960s America? They were only a step away from hijacking planes, no doubt...

[Sir David Gray]

Disingenuousness heaped upon lies. 'First of all' a Palestinian farmer was shot dead on his farm by the IDF as I'm sure you well know. So yet again it is Israel who has broken the ceasefire.

And there have been numerous Israeli incursions post-ceasefire and prior to the roadside bomb, which was not even claimed by Hamas (who aren't exactly wont to do so).

Your claims of pro-Palestinian media bias is nothing more than laughable in light of the first point.

I'm aware that a farmer was killed but I believe that happened after the bomb attack last Tuesday. If it didn't, then I apologise.

My reasons for posting that the ceasefire had been broken, weren't really intended to blame Hamas or defend Israel. I only mentioned it for two reasons;

a) To get the discussion back on track.
b) To introduce my next point on the Israeli elections and saying that I wished people would believe me when I say peace won't materialise.

I did make a criticism of the press as I believe that if Israel were to respond to the rocket attacks, it would be right in there as their top news story. It's not deemed as newsworthy to report that rockets were fired into Israel. That's just a fact.

My attempts to bring the discussion back on topic have seemingly failed, so this will probably be one of my last posts on this thread as I have no interest in discussing whether protests at the BBC studios and hijacking planes, are similar.

[The Green Goblin]

It`s getting pretty tasty on this thread. Looking back at some of the earlier pages, even when people from all sides of the arguments were obviously getting passionate about the debate, they were still taking some time to sit down and write out their arguments in full and lengthy posts, which kind of made the whole thing still worth while. It`s also what enabled us to take a step back and acknowledge that although the temperature had definitely gone way up in some moments, there had still been a decent debate.

So, as someone who has argued strongly against almost everything that Falkirk Hibee has said on this thread, it was a bit weird to find myself agreeing with him when he wrote that we should get back to the subject of the thread and that there was still more potential for decent discussion.

So, all of this `you called me such and such` rubbish going on and short snippy posts which do nothing more than make petty jibes at other posters are just a waste of everyone`s time. Take a day out from the thread and come back a bit cooler, whatever your position on things is, or at least recognise that us bickering bitterly on here doesn`t exactly put us in a strong position to comment on people fighting elsewhere in the world.

GG

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm aware that a farmer was killed but I believe that happened after the bomb attack last Tuesday. If it didn't, then I apologise.

My reasons for posting that the ceasefire had been broken, weren't really intended to blame Hamas or defend Israel. I only mentioned it for two reasons;

a) To get the discussion back on track.
b) To introduce my next point on the Israeli elections and saying that I wished people would believe me when I say peace won't materialise.

I did make a criticism of the press as I believe that if Israel were to respond to the rocket attacks, it would be right in there as their top news story. It's not deemed as newsworthy to report that rockets were fired into Israel. That's just a fact.

My attempts to bring the discussion back on topic have seemingly failed, so this will probably be one of my last posts on this thread as I have no interest in discussing whether protests at the BBC studios and hijacking planes, are similar.

It didn't.

[Hibrandenburg]

Possibly, apologies for the tone.



Sorry again, but it is a pretty trite and meaningless statement to make.



Hiberlin has 'played the man' as much as anyone else on this thread, though.

You're right but the red card was only deserved for retaliation. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Sock it to me :greengrin (http://www.hibs.net/message/showthread.php?p=1930152#post1930152)

[Betty Boop]

White flag incidents in Gaza http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21859.htm

[Hibrandenburg]

Hammas broke ceasefire (http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3275426/hamas-breaks-ceasefire-britain-ignores-it.thtml)

[LiverpoolHibs]

Hammas broke ceasefire (http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3275426/hamas-breaks-ceasefire-britain-ignores-it.thtml)

Melanie Phillips? Seriously?!

She claims fire from Hamas at the IDF on Sunday 19th, the Palestinian farmer was shot and killed by the IDF on his own land on Monday 18th.

She is an utterly disgusting human being.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hammas broke ceasefire (http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3275426/hamas-breaks-ceasefire-britain-ignores-it.thtml)


Melanie Phillips? Seriously?!

She claims fire from Hamas at the IDF on Sunday 19th, the Palestinian farmer was shot and killed by the IDF on his own land on Monday 18th.

She is an utterly disgusting human being.

Just showing how easy it is to find sources to support any argument you like on the internet.

Everyone talks about Israel playing propaganda games but it would be safe to say that Hammas also know how to play the media.

What's your oppinion on this Liverpool, is it real or fake?


Hamas fires from foreign Press building in Gaza (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JY50cktUKbA&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32495_Video-_Al_Arabiya_Studio_Used_As_Rocket_Launching_Site)

[LiverpoolHibs]

Just showing how easy it is to find sources to support any argument you like on the internet.

Everyone talks about Israel playing propaganda games but it would be safe to say that Hammas also know how to play the media.

What's your oppinion on this Liverpool, is it real or fake?


Hamas fires from foreign Press building in Gaza (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JY50cktUKbA&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32495_Video-_Al_Arabiya_Studio_Used_As_Rocket_Launching_Site)

I have absolutely no idea. How would that be Hamas 'playing the media', though?

[Hibrandenburg]

I have absolutely no idea. How would that be Hamas 'playing the media', though?

My point was that if it was fake, then it might have been Israel playing the media :dunno:

More propaganda? Beware, some scenes disturbing (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=B18m-jjIeYM&feature=related)

[LiverpoolHibs]

My point was that if it was fake, then it might have been Israel playing the media :dunno:

More propaganda? Beware, some scenes disturbing (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=B18m-jjIeYM&feature=related)

Oh right sorry, as I say I have no idea.

Have you actually watched that video. Surely you can see how absolutely ridiculous and lacking in any kind of (even flawed) intellectual rigour it is?

[Hibrandenburg]

Oh right sorry, as I say I have no idea.

Have you actually watched that video. Surely you can see how absolutely ridiculous and lacking in any kind of (even flawed) intellectual rigour it is?

Like any film I take it with a pinch of salt, as anything can be made to look like anything depending on how you cut it.

[Sir David Gray]

It didn't.

OK, that clears that up, then. :greengrin

[--------]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time:

Do you agree that, if 'John' is capable of justifying the hijack of a building, in order to make a protest, then he is also capable of justifying hijacking an aeroplane? If not, why not?

Do you agree that 'justifying' something is not the same thing as actually 'doing' it? If not, why not?

On your last point - I declare that your credibility now stands or falls on your production of evidence from this thread that I have mocked someone. If you can't do that, then I suggest you kindly move along (from replying to my posts). Otherwise you are taking a liberty with my polite nature of attempting to reply to all posts in reponse to mine.

No, I don't. The two things are different. I'm not aware of having confused one with the other, either consciously or unconsciously.

I would justify the temporary occupation of a building to make a serious protest on certain issues. I would NOT justify such an occupation on other issues.

I would NOT justify violence against the people in that building.

I would NOT justify the hijacking of an airliner.

So I'm capable of justifying ONE thing, but not the others. If I'm capable of justifying one thing but not another, so should anyone else be.

Of course justifying something isn't the same as doing it; I'm not quite sure where that comes from? I'm not the one who suggested that a group who actually DID one thing was therefore by definition capable of doing something much worse as "the next step".

On YOUR last point, you can make any declaration you like - I take this subject far too seriously to 'mock' you as you put it. People have died, are dying, and will continue to die because of the activities of two violent and repressive regimes, one in Israel, the other in Gaza.

However, I have no sympathy for the myth that the Israelis took over a barren and unpopulated land and "made the desert bloom". Palestine has been in unbroken occupation by Arabs and other races since ancient times. The fact is that many Palestinian Arabs had their land stolen from them, and their families "relocated" by the Israeli Armed Forces, in the years immediately following the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. Those who remain are treated as second-class citizens in a land where their forefathers lived for centuries. This behaviour is entirely reminiscent of the behaviour of the Nazis during the peiod of the Third Reich.

I have no sympathy either for Hamas or Hizbollah or any other militant Islamist faction. On the other hand, I'm not xactly surprised that they exist - if people can't get justice or even a hearing by peaceful means, they'll very likely resort to violent ones. I'm not saying this is right - Israelis have as much right not to be blown up by suicide bombers and rockets as the Arabs in Gaza have not to have their houses destroyed by IDF artillery and tanks and their children killed.

But if one people deny justice to another by force of arms, it's hardly surprising that their victims resort to arms in retaliation. And the situation isn't helped by the way the US and their allies (us mainly) continually support Israel in its flouting of repeated UN resolutions.

Question - were the Polish people justified or unjustified in rebelling against the Nazis in the Warsaw Rising in 1944?

[GhostofBolivar]

No, I don't. The two things are different. I'm not aware of having confused one with the other, either consciously or unconsciously.

I would justify the temporary occupation of a building to make a serious protest on certain issues. I would NOT justify such an occupation on other issues.

The peaceful occupation of buildings is actually a fairly common method of protest in Latin America. One that's normally far more dangerous for the protestors than those the protest is aimed at.

[Betty Boop]

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article21939.htm

[Betty Boop]

Meanwhile Tony Blair "Middle East Peace Envoy" wins million dollar prize for "global leadership". :jamboak: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/16/tony-blair-prize

[Betty Boop]

More Israeli brutality----. http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22068.htm

[LiverpoolHibs]

More Israeli brutality----. http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22068.htm

Another break of ceasefire? Who'd have thunk it. ****ing cowardly ****bags.

[Hibrandenburg]

More Israeli brutality----. http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22068.htm

More Hamas brutality----Hamas Atrocities (http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2009/01/34352.php)

[Hibrandenburg]

Hamas corrupt and brutalising their own people. Don't just take may word for it, have a listen to what the son of the Hamas leader says on the subject.

Son of Hamas leader (http://www.mideastmonitoring.com/2009/01/memri-son-of-hamas-leader-hamas.html)

[Betty Boop]

Hamas corrupt and brutalising their own people. Don't just take may word for it, have a listen to what the son of the Hamas leader says on the subject.

Son of Hamas leader (http://www.mideastmonitoring.com/2009/01/memri-son-of-hamas-leader-hamas.html) What has this to do with the Israelis taking pot shots at unarmed farmers going about their work? :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

More Hamas brutality----Hamas Atrocities (http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2009/01/34352.php)


Hamas corrupt and brutalising their own people. Don't just take may word for it, have a listen to what the son of the Hamas leader says on the subject.

Son of Hamas leader (http://www.mideastmonitoring.com/2009/01/memri-son-of-hamas-leader-hamas.html)

Just so we know. You're saying there is parity between the State of Israel and a group regarded as a terrorist group by the US, UK, Canada, the EU and Australia? Someone should get on the blower and get Israel proscribed as well...

[Hibrandenburg]

Just so we know. You're saying there is parity between the State of Israel and a group regarded as a terrorist group by the US, UK, Canada, the EU and Australia? Someone should get on the blower and get Israel proscribed as well...

I'm saying there's fault on both sides and not quite the one sided view that you for some reason would love to brandish.

Israel aren't the only murdering cowardly *******s that the Palastinian people have to deal with.

[Hibrandenburg]

More Israeli brutality----. http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22068.htm


This post is in respond to the above quote, showing that not only Israelis have Palastinian blood on their hands. That's why I quoted you in this post and not the post you quoted me as quoting you.

More Hamas brutality----Hamas Atrocities (http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2009/01/34352.php)


This post is an addition to my previous post and I didn't quote you in it so why twist what I said?
Hamas corrupt and brutalising their own people. Don't just take may word for it, have a listen to what the son of the Hamas leader says on the subject.

Son of Hamas leader (http://www.mideastmonitoring.com/2009/01/memri-son-of-hamas-leader-hamas.html)




What has this to do with the Israelis taking pot shots at unarmed farmers going about their work? :confused:


Why didn't you state in the thread title that this thread was purely pro Hamas and only Israeli bashing was to take place on it, maybe then I'd have refrained from trying to give an even picture. :wink:

[Betty Boop]

This post is in respond to the above quote, showing that not only Israelis have Palastinian blood on their hands. That's why I quoted you in this post and not the post you quoted me as quoting you.



This post is an addition to my previous post and I didn't quote you in it so why twist what I said?






Why didn't you state in the thread title that this thread was purely pro Hamas and only Israeli bashing was to take place on it, maybe then I'd have refrained from trying to give an even picture. :wink: I am not in any way pro Hamas, I am pro the innocent Palestinian civilians living under the Israeli occupation. :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm saying there's fault on both sides and not quite the one sided view that you for some reason would love to brandish.

Israel aren't the only murdering cowardly *******s that the Palastinian people have to deal with.

But I'm not sure what relevance this has to the Israel-Palestine conflict that this thread is, quite explicitly, about. It essentially 'Hamas acting in reactionary and brutal manner shocker!'

I don't think anyone on here has said that they support Hamas.

[Hibrandenburg]

I am not in any way pro Hamas, I am pro the innocent Palestinian civilians living under the Israeli occupation. :greengrin

As I am. :agree:

I'm also pro innocent Israeli civilians living in fear of Hamas rockets landing on their homes. If peace is ever to be achieved then both sides have to realise they are at fault.

If Hamas and it's foreign supporters were taken out of the equation then IMO a major stumbling block will have been removed.

[Hibrandenburg]

But I'm not sure what relevance this has to the Israel-Palestine conflict that this thread is, quite explicitly, about. It essentially 'Hamas acting in reactionary and brutal manner shocker!'

I don't think anyone on here has said that they support Hamas.

That's exactly the train of thought that keeps this conflict rolling on and on. The fact that both sides are dismissive of the other sides problems.

[Betty Boop]

The Viva Palestina aid convoy has been given permission, by the Egyptian Government to enter through the Rafah crossing, into Gaza. They left on the 14th February and have travelled by road, with more than 200 vehicles in the convoy. Well done to them all, Viva Palestina! http://www.vivapalestina.org/video.htm

[H18sry]

The Viva Palestina aid convoy has been given permission, by the Egyptian Government to enter through the Rafah crossing, into Gaza. They left on the 14th February and have travelled by road, with more than 200 vehicles in the convoy. Well done to them all, Viva Palestina! http://www.vivapalestina.org/video.htm

It's due to arrive tomorrow, George Galloway mentioned on the radio last night that he was flying out at 7am today to join up for the historic crossing.

[Betty Boop]

It's due to arrive tomorrow, George Galloway mentioned on the radio last night that he was flying out at 7am today to join up for the historic crossing. Hats off to GG! :thumbsup:

[Betty Boop]

Viva Palestina the aid convoy has entered Gaza, despite vehicles being vandalised by pro-Fatah sympathisers in Egypt. Well done to all! http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=88005&sectionid=351020202

[LiverpoolHibs]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5016115/Israeli-soldiers-admit-shooting-dead-civilians-during-Gaza-war.html

Israeli soldiers have admitted shooting dead unarmed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war.

In detailed accounts published by the Israeli media, soldiers also told of the wanton destruction of property during the 22-day conflict with Hamas.An infantry squad leader described an incident in which a sniper mistakenly shot a Palestinian woman and her two children after the family misunderstood the order of another soldier and turned the wrong direction.

"The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away," he said.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something [that seemed] much less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way."

From the soldiers' testimony there appeared to be a policy in place, at least during part of the operation, that anyone who remained in certain open areas would be deemed as suspicious and could be shot.

The Israeli army said that its chief advocate had ordered the military police to investigate the claims. An earlier statement said that the army had no evidence to support claims in Haaretz that the soldiers acted under what the newspaper described as "permissive rules of engagement".

Another squad leader described such a situation in which an older Palestinian woman was shot and killed because she was walking about 100 yards from a house that the company had taken over.

The same soldier described graffiti such as "Death to the Arabs" written on the walls of homes that were commandeered and said he saw soldiers spitting on family photographs.

"I think this is the main thing: to understand how much the Israel Defence Forces has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most," he said.

The accounts, which were published in the Haaretz and Maariv newspapers, immediately met with calls for an independent inquiry. A human rights groups, Yesh Din, said: "The testimonies that were published today in the Israeli media cast a shadow not just over the specific soldiers who carried out these deeds but also on high-ranking officials who gave the commands to open fire.

"If these orders were given as described in the testimonies, then both the issuing of the orders and their implementation are criminal offences."

[Betty Boop]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5016115/Israeli-soldiers-admit-shooting-dead-civilians-during-Gaza-war.html

Israeli soldiers have admitted shooting dead unarmed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war.

In detailed accounts published by the Israeli media, soldiers also told of the wanton destruction of property during the 22-day conflict with Hamas.An infantry squad leader described an incident in which a sniper mistakenly shot a Palestinian woman and her two children after the family misunderstood the order of another soldier and turned the wrong direction.

"The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away," he said.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something [that seemed] much less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way."

From the soldiers' testimony there appeared to be a policy in place, at least during part of the operation, that anyone who remained in certain open areas would be deemed as suspicious and could be shot.

The Israeli army said that its chief advocate had ordered the military police to investigate the claims. An earlier statement said that the army had no evidence to support claims in Haaretz that the soldiers acted under what the newspaper described as "permissive rules of engagement".

Another squad leader described such a situation in which an older Palestinian woman was shot and killed because she was walking about 100 yards from a house that the company had taken over.

The same soldier described graffiti such as "Death to the Arabs" written on the walls of homes that were commandeered and said he saw soldiers spitting on family photographs.

"I think this is the main thing: to understand how much the Israel Defence Forces has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most," he said.

The accounts, which were published in the Haaretz and Maariv newspapers, immediately met with calls for an independent inquiry. A human rights groups, Yesh Din, said: "The testimonies that were published today in the Israeli media cast a shadow not just over the specific soldiers who carried out these deeds but also on high-ranking officials who gave the commands to open fire.

"If these orders were given as described in the testimonies, then both the issuing of the orders and their implementation are criminal offences." Following orders were dismissed as an excuse in the Nuremberg War Crime Trials. Surely the IDF are also guilty of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, for example, unlawful wanton destruction of property and directing attacks against civilians, for starters.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Following orders were dismissed as an excuse in the Nuremberg War Crime Trials. Surely the IDF are also guilty of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, for example, unlawful wanton destruction of property and directing attacks against civilians, for starters.

Absolutely. The Fourth of the Nuremberg Principles.

I'm not going to hold my breath, though!

[Betty Boop]

Absolutely. The Fourth of the Nuremberg Principles.

I'm not going to hold my breath, though! :agree: http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=89181&sectionid=351020202

[LiverpoolHibs]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Army-T-Shirts-Mock-Killing-Palestinian-Women-And-Children-During-Gaza-Offensive/Article/200903315245946?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15245946_Israeli_Army_T-Shirts_Mock_Killing_Palestinian_Women_And_Children _During_Gaza_Offensive

Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Gaza Killings

3:45pm UK, Friday March 20, 2009
Dominic Waghorn, Middle East correspondent

The revelations centre on t-shirt designs made for soldiers that make light of shooting pregnant Palestinian mothers and children and include images of dead babies and destroyed mosques.
The t-shirts were printed for Israeli (http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Israel) soldiers at the end of periods of deployment or training courses and were discovered by Israeli newspaper Haaretz (http://haaretz.com/).
One, printed for a platoon of Israeli snipers depicts an armed Palestinian pregnant women caught in the crosshairs of a rifle, with the disturbing caption in English: "1 shot 2 kills".
Another depicts a child carrying a gun also in the centre of a target.
"The smaller, the harder," read the words on the t-shirt.
According to a soldier interviewed by the newspaper, the message has a double meaning: "It's a kid, so you've got a little more of a problem, morally and also the target is smaller."
Another shows an Israeli soldier blowing up a mosque and reads "Only God forgives".
Above a ninja figure, yet another shirt bears the slogan "Won't chill until I confirm a kill".
The revelations, coming so soon after Israel's offensive in Gaza (http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Gaza) in which hundreds of civilians were killed - many of them women and children - are causing outrage.
Perhaps the most shocking design shows a Palestinian mother weeping next to her dead baby's grave, also in the crosshairs of a rifle.
It suggests it would have been better if the child had never been born, with the slogan "Better use Durex".
The controversy follows more revelations by other soldiers about abuses (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israel-Military-Reels-From-Ethics-Claims-Over-Soldiers-Conduct-In-Gaza-Conflict/Article/200903315244891?lpos=World_News_Second_World_News_ Article_Teaser_Region_9&lid=ARTICLE_15244891_Israel_Military_Reels_From_Et hics_Claims_Over_Soldiers_Conduct_In_Gaza_Conflict ) and the shooting of civilians during Israel's offensive during the Gaza offensive.
Ex-soldier and campaigner with Breaking The Silence (http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/index_e.asp), Michael Maniken, told Sky News Online this week's revelations suggest a pattern of immoral conduct in the army.
"The army keeps on saying we're talking about a few rotten apples but it seems the army doesn't understand there's a norm in this kind of action," he explained.
"We're hearing about this time and time again and the army seems disconnected from reality."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces (http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Israeli_Defence_Forces) (IDF) told Sky News Online, the t-shirts were printed on the private initiative of the soldiers and their designs "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless. This type of humour is unacceptable and should be condemned".

[The Green Goblin]

Israel's dirty secrets in Gaza

Army veterans reveal how they gunned down innocent Palestinian families and destroyed homes and farms

By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem


Friday, 20 March 2009

Israel was last night confronting a major challenge over the conduct of its 22-day military offensive in Gaza after testimonies by its own soldiers revealed that troops were allowed and, in some cases, even ordered to shoot unarmed Palestinian civilians.


The testimonies – the first of their kind to emerge from inside the military – are at marked variance with official claims that the military made strenuous efforts to avoid civilian casualties and tend to corroborate Palestinian accusations that troops used indiscriminate and disproportionate firepower in civilian areas during the operation. In one of the testimonies shedding harsh new light on what the soldiers say were the permissive rules of engagement for Operation Cast Lead, one soldier describes how an officer ordered the shooting of an elderly woman 100 metres from a house commandeered by troops.

Another soldier, describing how a mother and her children were shot dead by a sniper after they turned the wrong way out of a house, says the "atmosphere" among troops was that the lives of Palestinians were "very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers".


A squad leader said: "At the beginning the directive was to enter a house with an armoured vehicle, to break the door down, to start shooting inside and – I call it murder – to shoot at everyone we identify. In the beginning I asked myself how could this make sense? Higher-ups said it is permissible because everyone left in the city [Gaza City] is culpable because they didn't run away."

The accounts, which also describe apparently indiscriminate destruction of property, were given at a post-operation discussion by graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course at the Oranim Academic College in northern Israel. The transcript of the session in front of the head of the course – details from which were published by the newspaper Haaretz – prompted the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) military advocate general Avichai Mendelblit yesterday to announce a military police investigation into the claims. Haaretz said the airing of the "dirty secrets" would make it more difficult for Israelis to dismiss the claims as Palestinian propaganda. The course principal, Danny Zamir, told the newspaper that after being "shocked" by the testimonies on 13 February he told the IDF chief of staff Gabi Ashkenazi he "feared a serious moral failure" in the IDF.

In one account, an infantry squad leader describes how troops released a family who had been held in a room of their house for several days. He said: "The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay... The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him. He shot them straight away. I don't think he felt too bad about it, because, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to, the lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers."

A second squad leader, who described the killing of the elderly woman, says he argued with his commander over loose rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, soldiers had complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist." The squad leader said: "To write 'death to the Arabs' on walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics."

Ehud Barak, Israel's Defence Minister, said: "I say to you that from the chief of staff down to the last soldier, the most moral army in the world stands ready to take orders from the government of Israel. I have no doubt that every incident will be individually examined."

But Israeli human rights organisations, including B'Tselem and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, called for an independent investigation and complained that the military police inquiry had only been announced after Haaretz published the story, "three weeks after the relevant materials reached the Chief of the General Staff. This tardiness follows a pattern of failures to investigate suspicions of serious crimes".

Amos Harel, the paper's respected military correspondent who broke the story, wrote that Mr Zamir was sentenced in 1990 for refusing to guard a settlers' ceremony at Joseph's tomb in the West Bank. But he added that a reading of the transcript shows that Mr Zamir "acts out of a deep concern for the spirit of the IDF".

In their own words: Soldiers' stories

Squad leader Aviv

"At the beginning the directive was to enter a house with an armoured vehicle, to break the door down, to start shooting inside and to ascend floor by floor and – I call it murder – to go from floor to floor and to shoot at everyone we identify. In the beginning I asked myself how could this make sense? Higher-ups said it is permissible because everyone left in the city [Gaza City] is culpable because they didn't run away. This frightened me a bit. I tried to influence it as much as possible, despite my low rank, to change it. In the end the directive was to go into a house, switch on loudspeakers and tell them 'you have five minutes to run away and whoever doesn't will be killed'."

Soldier Ram

"There was an order to free the [confined] families. The platoon commander set free the family and told them to turn right. A mother and two children didn't understand and turned left. [Officers] had forgotten to tell the sniper on the roof that they were being set free and that everything was okay and he should hold fire. You can say that he acted as he was supposed to, in accordance with the orders. The sniper saw a woman and children approaching him, past lines that no one was to be allowed to cross. He fired directly at them. I don't know if he fired at their legs but in the end he killed them."

[Betty Boop]

:boo hoo:

[hibsbollah]

I said it in a previous post, but this 'war' (if you can call it that) was a racist conflict, not a religious conflict as it is often painted by the media. At the root of it is the inherent belief that the life of an Arab is not worth as much as the life of a Jew (or a white). The Israeli state is the natural successor to apartheid South Africa. It is a state that needs to be dismantled, brick by brick.

[Betty Boop]

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22251.htm

[Sir David Gray]

:agree: http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=89181&sectionid=351020202

There's nothing quite like an unbiased source eh!? :wink:

Is that the same Press TV that is funded by the Iranian government, who just happen to also fund Hamas?

And you laughed earlier in the thread when I supplied an article from Jerusalem's bureau chief as evidence that Hamas uses human shields. :greengrin

Seriously though, if there have been any Israeli soldiers who are found to have acted illegally during the war in Gaza, I hope they face justice. Anyone found guilty of the behaviour that is being alleged, should be arrested. The kind of actions that are being spoken about are indefensible, even from someone like myself who is a staunch supporter of Israel.

It's good that the Israeli army is going to conduct an investigation.

[hibsbollah]

There's nothing quite like an unbiased source eh!? :wink:

Is that the same Press TV that is funded by the Iranian government, who just happen to also fund Hamas?

And you laughed earlier in the thread when I supplied an article from Jerusalem's bureau chief as evidence that Hamas uses human shields. :greengrin

Seriously though, if there have been any Israeli soldiers who are found to have acted illegally during the war in Gaza, I hope they face justice. Anyone found guilty of the behaviour that is being alleged, should be arrested. The kind of actions that are being spoken about are indefensible, even from someone like myself who is a staunch supporter of Israel.

It's good that the Israeli army is going to conduct an investigation.

The sources quoted are Sky TV and the Independent. There is no 'if' about it. Terrible, Nazi-like atrocities have happened.

[Betty Boop]

There's nothing quite like an unbiased source eh!? :wink:

Is that the same Press TV that is funded by the Iranian government, who just happen to also fund Hamas?

And you laughed earlier in the thread when I supplied an article from Jerusalem's bureau chief as evidence that Hamas uses human shields. :greengrin

Seriously though, if there have been any Israeli soldiers who are found to have acted illegally during the war in Gaza, I hope they face justice. Anyone found guilty of the behaviour that is being alleged, should be arrested. The kind of actions that are being spoken about are indefensible, even from someone like myself who is a staunch supporter of Israel.

It's good that the Israeli army is going to conduct an investigation.
How about Haaretz.com then? http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072481.html :blah:

[LiverpoolHibs]

There's nothing quite like an unbiased source eh!? :wink:

Is that the same Press TV that is funded by the Iranian government, who just happen to also fund Hamas?

And you laughed earlier in the thread when I supplied an article from Jerusalem's bureau chief as evidence that Hamas uses human shields. :greengrin

The only quotes in the article you posted are attributed to an IDF commander as opposed to an American U.N. employee, there's no comparison whatsoever.

And there's more...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelis-told-to-fight-holy-war-in-gaza-1650616.html

Israeli's Told To Fight Holy War In Gaza.

Many Israeli troops had the sense of fighting a "religious war" against Gentiles during the 22-day offensive in Gaza, according to a soldier who has highlighted the martial role of military rabbis during the operation.

The soldier testified that the "clear" message of literature distributed to troops by the rabbinate was: "We are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the Gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land."

The claim comes in the detailed transcript of a post-war discussion by soldiers, publication of which has triggered a military police inquiry into allegations about the use of lethal firepower against unarmed civilians.

The investigation was ordered by the military's advocate general Avichai Mandleblit on Thursday after the liberal daily newspaper Haaretz published extracts from the transcript describing incidents in which Palestinian civilians were killed and property wantonly damaged.

In the fuller version of the transcript published yesterday, the soldier, a unit commander from the Givati brigade, says: "This was the main message and the whole sense many soldiers had in this operation was of a religious war." He recalled that his own sergeant was from a hesder yeshiva, a college combining religious study and military service, who led the whole platoon in prayer before going into battle. The commander added that he had sought to talk to the men about Palestinian politics and society and, "about how not everyone in Gaza is Hamas and not every inhabitant wants to vanquish us".

After the offensive, Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights group called for the dismissal of the military's head chaplain, Rabbi Avichai Rontzki, a brigadier general. It said that he had distributed to troops a booklet saying that it was "terribly immoral" to show mercy to a "cruel enemy" and that the soldiers were fighting "murderers".

The longer transcript conveys a fuller sense of the debate involving graduates from the Yitzhak Rabin military preparatory course. At one point Danny Zamir, the head of the course, says he would have questioned the killing of 180 traffic policemen during bombing on the first day of the operation. One pilot replies: "Tactically speaking you call them police. In any case they are armed and belong to Hamas ... during better times they take Fatah people and throw them off the roofs and see what happens."

The latest casualty figures published by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights list the names of 1,434 dead of whom they say 926 were civilians, 236 fighters and 255 police officers.

[Hibrandenburg]

If any of that is true, then the world must see that this facist state is treated as such and it's leaders and henchmen brought to justice ala Nürnberg.

[Betty Boop]

Richard Falk speaks on Israeli War Crimes http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22264.htm

[Sir David Gray]

The sources quoted are Sky TV and the Independent. There is no 'if' about it. Terrible, Nazi-like atrocities have happened.


How about Haaretz.com then? http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072481.html :blah:


The only quotes in the article you posted are attributed to an IDF commander as opposed to an American U.N. employee, there's no comparison whatsoever.

And there's more...

I was (half) joking in the first part of my post. There are obviously some pretty serious allegations being levelled at some Israeli soldiers that are quite rightly being investigated. I just wouldn't take anything Press TV says about Israel, seriously.

This kind of news does not surprise me. As I have said before, Israel will continue to have less and less friends and supporters. That point is emphasised by what Hiberlin (previously sympathetic towards Israel) has said in his last post. The situation will only get worse for Israel.

As an aside I wonder whether, if the roles were reversed, Hamas would be conducting an investigation and trying to weed out those responsible.

I would say the chances of that happening would be somewhere between no chance and....eh....no chance.

[Betty Boop]

Israeli troops used an 11 year old Palestinian boy as a human shield. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/un-accuses-troops-of-using-boy-11-as-human-shield-1652605.html

[hibsbollah]

US-based organisation Human Rights Watch report published today-confirms the 'war crimes' allegations.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

March 25, 2009

Related Materials:
Q & A on Israel’s Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/q-israel-s-use-white-phosphorus-gaza)


Other Material:
Witness accounts and additional analysis of IDF use of white phosphorus (http://www.hrw.org/node/81823)
Rain of Fire: Israel’s Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza (http://www.hrw.org/node/81760)


(Jerusalem) - Israel's repeated firing of white phosphorus shells over densely populated areas of Gaza during its recent military campaign was indiscriminate and is evidence of war crimes, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

The 71-page report, "Rain of Fire: Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza (http://www.hrw.org/node/81760)," provides witness accounts of the devastating effects that white phosphorus munitions had on civilians and civilian property in Gaza. Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza immediately after hostilities ended found spent shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets, apartment roofs, residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school. The report also presents ballistics evidence, photographs, and satellite imagery, as well as documents from the Israeli military and government.

Militaries use white phosphorus primarily to obscure their operations on the ground by creating thick smoke. It can also be used as an incendiary weapon.
"In Gaza, the Israeli military didn't just use white phosphorus in open areas as a screen for its troops," said Fred Abrahams, senior emergencies researcher at Human Rights Watch and co-author of the report. "It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safer smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died."

The report documents a pattern or policy of white phosphorus use that Human Rights Watch says must have required the approval of senior military officers.

"For the needless civilian deaths caused by white phosphorus, senior commanders should be held to account," Abrahams said.

On February 1, Human Rights Watch submitted detailed questions to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) about its white phosphorus use in Gaza. The IDF did not provide responses, citing an internal inquiry being conducted by the Southern Command.

In the recent Gaza operations, Israeli forces frequently air-burst white phosphorus in 155mm artillery shells in and near populated areas. Each air-burst shell spreads 116 burning white phosphorus wedges in a radius extending up to 125 meters from the blast point. White phosphorus ignites and burns on contact with oxygen, and continues burning at up to 1500 degrees Fahrenheit (816 degrees Celsius) until nothing is left or the oxygen supply is cut. When white phosphorus comes into contact with skin it creates intense and persistent burns.

When used properly in open areas, white phosphorus munitions are not illegal, but the Human Rights Watch report concludes that the IDF repeatedly exploded it unlawfully over populated neighborhoods, killing and wounding civilians and damaging civilian structures, including a school, a market, a humanitarian aid warehouse, and a hospital.

Israel at first denied it was using white phosphorus in Gaza but, facing mounting evidence to the contrary, said that it was using all weapons in compliance with international law. Later it announced an internal investigation into possible improper white phosphorus use.

"Past IDF investigations into allegations of wrongdoing suggest that this inquiry will be neither thorough nor impartial," Abrahams said. "That's why an international investigation is required into serious laws of war violations by all parties."

The IDF knew that white phosphorus poses life-threatening dangers to civilians, Human Rights Watch said. A medical report prepared during the recent hostilities by the Israeli ministry of health said that white phosphorus "can cause serious injury and death when it comes into contact with the skin, is inhaled or is swallowed." Burns on less than 10 percent of the body can be fatal because of damage to the liver, kidneys, and heart, the ministry report says. Infection is common and the body's absorption of the chemical can cause serious damage to internal organs, as well as death.
If the IDF intended to use white phosphorus as a smokescreen for its forces, it had a readily available non-lethal alternative to white phosphorus - smoke shells produced by an Israeli company, Human Rights Watch concluded.

All of the white phosphorus shells that Human Rights Watch found were manufactured in the United States in 1989 by Thiokol Aerospace, which was running the Louisiana Army Ammunition Plant at the time.
On January 4, Reuters photographed IDF artillery units handling projectiles whose markings indicate that they were produced in the United States at the Pine Bluff Arsenal in September 1991.

To explain the high number of civilian casualties in Gaza, Israeli officials have repeatedly blamed Hamas for using civilians as "human shields" and for fighting from civilian sites. In the cases documented in the report, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of Hamas using human shields in the vicinity at the time of the attacks.

In some areas Palestinian fighters appear to have been present, but this does not justify the indiscriminate use of white phosphorus in a populated area.

Human Rights Watch said that for multiple reasons it concluded that the IDF had deliberately or recklessly used white phosphorus munitions in violation of the laws of war. First, the repeated use of air-burst white phosphorus in populated areas until the last days of the operation reveals a pattern or policy of conduct rather than incidental or accidental usage. Second, the IDF was well aware of the effects of white phosphorus and the dangers it poses to civilians. Third, the IDF failed to use safer available alternatives for smokescreens.

The laws of war obligate states to investigate impartially allegations of war crimes. The evidence available demands that Israel investigate and prosecute as appropriate those who ordered or carried out unlawful attacks using white phosphorus munitions, Human Rights Watch said.

The United States government, which supplied Israel with its white phosphorus munitions, should also conduct an investigation to determine whether Israel used it in violation of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said.

[JimBHibees]

I was (half) joking in the first part of my post. There are obviously some pretty serious allegations being levelled at some Israeli soldiers that are quite rightly being investigated. I just wouldn't take anything Press TV says about Israel, seriously.

This kind of news does not surprise me. As I have said before, Israel will continue to have less and less friends and supporters. That point is emphasised by what Hiberlin (previously sympathetic towards Israel) has said in his last post. The situation will only get worse for Israel.

As an aside I wonder whether, if the roles were reversed, Hamas would be conducting an investigation and trying to weed out those responsible.

I would say the chances of that happening would be somewhere between no chance and....eh....no chance.

Israel are and have been for years, murdering sc@m which is shameful enough, the most shameful thing though is the West's (primarily US and UK) wholehearted support for them.

[steakbake]

I was (half) joking in the first part of my post. There are obviously some pretty serious allegations being levelled at some Israeli soldiers that are quite rightly being investigated. I just wouldn't take anything Press TV says about Israel, seriously.

This kind of news does not surprise me. As I have said before, Israel will continue to have less and less friends and supporters. That point is emphasised by what Hiberlin (previously sympathetic towards Israel) has said in his last post. The situation will only get worse for Israel.

As an aside I wonder whether, if the roles were reversed, Hamas would be conducting an investigation and trying to weed out those responsible.

I would say the chances of that happening would be somewhere between no chance and....eh....no chance.

Not sure of your logic here. Is it because somehow, that potentially negates how Israel have acted?

[hibsbollah]

The alternative point of view...The Israeli apologists get their excuses in early. I wonder what investigation he's referring to? The IDF internal one, perhaps?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes

Don't judge Israel's 'war crimes'

Accusations of war crimes in Gaza need to be thoroughly investigated before any real conclusions can be reached




Uri Dromi (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/uri-dromi)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Tuesday 24 March 2009 09.00 GMT
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes#history-byline)

These films (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/gaza-war-crimes-investigation) are very disturbing. Anyone, like myself, who believes in the justice of Israel (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel) defending itself should nevertheless call for an independent and thorough investigation. If any of what we saw in the film is true, those responsible should be severely reprimanded.
Targeting paramedics is forbidden, no question about it. However, I find it hard to believe that any Israeli soldier would do such a thing intentionally. Using Palestinians as human shields was prohibited by the Israeli supreme court. The fact that the British did it in Palestine in 1936-39, during the Arab revolt in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936-1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine), is not an excuse. And drones are used precisely to make the greatest effort to distinguish between terrorists and uninvolved civilians. The insinuation that as we have the the technological capability to see everything, if civilians are hurt it means that they were targeted on purpose, is hard for me to swallow. Again, this should be thoroughly investigated.
However, we have been through this before. Israel has faced rushed accusations based on versions of the story told by Palestinians that turn out to be only partially true – and more often than not are exposed as lies and fabrications.
In the first Lebanon war of 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War), Palestinian propagandists floated the rumour that Israel had killed 10,000 people. The world media picked it up and without any serious checking, repeated the lie. It took weeks to refute it, and still, the libel stuck.
And remember the "massacre" in Jenin, in 2002 (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/). After clashes between IDF forces and Palestinian terrorists, the secretary-general of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, said that thousands of Palestinians had been killed and buried in mass graves, or lay under houses destroyed in Jenin and Nablus. However, according to Lorenzo Cremonesi, the correspondent for the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera (http://www.corriere.it/) in Jerusalem, who visited the camp on 13 April 2002, "it was all talk and nothing could be verified". Cremonesi added: "At the end of that day, I wrote that the death toll was not more than 50 and most of them were combatants". Two weeks later, Qadoura Mousa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadoura_Mousa), director of Fatah for the northern West Bank, had to admit that the dead toll was 56.
Cremonesi, who is a personal friend of mine, has been a longtime critic of Israel's conduct vis-a-vis the Palestinians. His report, guided by his sound journalistic professionalism, carries much weight.
And it was the same Cremonesi who in the wake of the recent clash in Gaza went there to get a first-hand impression. On 22 January, he reported that Hamas had vastly overstated the number of civilian deaths in Gaza. He went on to confirm Israel's allegations that Hamas had used civilians as human shields and used ambulances and United Nations buildings in the fighting. Those who tried to drive the terrorists away in order to protect their families were beaten.
Israel, however, never gets a fair deal in such cases. I'm not even talking about the lack of context by which Israel is always portrayed as the aggressor, even if it is acting in justifiable self-defence. I'm talking about the ritual by which later retractions are barely noticed. Such was the case with the allegation that Israel had intentionally shelled a UN-run school in Gaza. Everybody memorised headlines such as the one in the Independent on 7 January: "Massacre of innocents as UN school is shelled (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/massacre-of-innocents-as-un-school-is-shelled-1230045.html)". How many remember, or even know, that Maxwell Gaylard, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator in Jerusalem, later admitted that the IDF mortar shells fell in the street near the school, and not on the school itself?
Why am I telling you all this? Because whenever I see or hear allegations of Israeli war crimes (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/israel-palestinian-territories-war-crimes), I have a sense of deja vu. These kind of accusations need to be thoroughly investigated, and this is exactly what the IDF is doing right now. Furthermore, our vibrant press will not tolerate any whitewash. Yet this is a slow and complex process that takes time. Will Israel get that time or, as usual, will it be sentenced again by a field tribunal of impatient, hostile public opinion?

[Betty Boop]

An Army of Extremists- as described by Christopher Hitchens. When did he turn his back on the Israelis? http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22290.htm

[Sir David Gray]

Not sure of your logic here. Is it because somehow, that potentially negates how Israel have acted?

No it doesn't. I have already stated that the allegations being made are extremely serious and are quite rightly being investigated. Any Israeli soldier who is found guilty of the conduct that is being spoken about, should be put behind bars for a very long time.

I am not defending this behaviour in the slightest.

My point was though, if the roles were reversed, and people connected with Hamas were being accused of such crimes, would the leaders of Hamas be conducting an investigation to try and find the perpetrators?

I think 'no' would be the answer to that. They would most likely be handing out medals.


An Army of Extremists- as described by Christopher Hitchens. When did he turn his back on the Israelis? http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22290.htm

It's his brother, Peter, who supports Israel.

[hibsbollah]

Israeli Govt investigation reported today, and concludes there were no war crimes, Ehud Barak says 'Israel has the most moral army in the world':rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/israeli-military-no-war-crimes-gaza

[Betty Boop]

Israeli Govt investigation reported today, and concludes there were no war crimes, Ehud Barak says 'Israel has the most moral army in the world':rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/israeli-military-no-war-crimes-gaza
Even the Israeli press are surprised www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075001.htm :bitchy:

[hibsbollah]

Even the Israeli press are surprised www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075001.htm (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075001.htm) :bitchy:

The 'most moral army in the world'. Orwell couldnt make it up. And the world just sits there and puts up with it.:blah:

[Tazio]

Israeli Govt investigation reported today, and concludes there were no war crimes, Ehud Barak says 'Israel has the most moral army in the world':rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/israeli-military-no-war-crimes-gaza

And I'm going to log off the internet soon as Helena Christiansen and Winona Ryder are in my bedroom having lesbian sex and are shouting for me to join them as they need me to make their lives complete.

[hibsbollah]

And I'm going to log off the internet soon as Helena Christiansen and Winona Ryder are in my bedroom having lesbian sex and are shouting for me to join them as they need me to make their lives complete.

I don't believe that for a minute.



...my guess is you'll stay online a bit longer:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Four years on, the Israelis launch Operation Cloud Pillar, bombarding Gaza from the air and the sea. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[yeezus.]

I said it in a previous post, but this 'war' (if you can call it that) was a racist conflict, not a religious conflict as it is often painted by the media. At the root of it is the inherent belief that the life of an Arab is not worth as much as the life of a Jew (or a white). The Israeli state is the natural successor to apartheid South Africa. It is a state that needs to be dismantled, brick by brick.

:agree: :top marks I wish more people in the media would make this clear and stop pretending it is religious.

[Sir David Gray]

Four years on, the Israelis launch Operation Cloud Pillar, bombarding Gaza from the air and the sea. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Great, selective reporting as ever on this forum.

Not a peep out of anyone over the past week or so to report the daily rocket attacks that have been fired constantly from Gaza into Israel by Hamas backed terrorists, but as soon as Israel dares to fire back it's suddenly headline news.

How would you expect a country to react when they're coming under attack, not just every so often, but constantly by groups of people who oppose their very existence and openly state that they want them wiped from the map?

No country on the planet would put up with those sorts of attacks happening from beyond their borders and if Britain was being attacked in a similar way by a country such as Ireland or France, I would expect us to respond in a similar manner.

If anything, Israel's response has been quite restrained.

[cabbageandribs1875]

after being bombarded with 110 rocket attacks in under four days, i reckon israel have every right to retaliate, and good stuff taking one of the terrorist leaders out :agree:

[NOLA]

Israeli Govt investigation reported today, and concludes there were no war crimes, Ehud Barak says 'Israel has the most moral army in the world':rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/israeli-military-no-war-crimes-gaza

israel has the most moral army in the world' reading back this thread this statement is a cracker, i was brought up in southern France, the majority of my friends growing up were north africans from tunisia/algeria/morocco plus my dad worked in the oil industry in libya and saudi, so growing up its fair to say i didnt hold much sympathy for israel, and having grown up i have even less so now, the middle east and the whole arab region cant be many years from open conflict with israel and its main sponsor i feel, there is no way this situation is resolved peacefully.

[Betty Boop]

Great, selective reporting as ever on this forum.

Not a peep out of anyone over the past week or so to report the daily rocket attacks that have been fired constantly from Gaza into Israel by Hamas backed terrorists, but as soon as Israel dares to fire back it's suddenly headline news.

How would you expect a country to react when they're coming under attack, not just every so often, but constantly by groups of people who oppose their very existence and openly state that they want them wiped from the map?

No country on the planet would put up with those sorts of attacks happening from beyond their borders and if Britain was being attacked in a similar way by a country such as Ireland or France, I would expect us to respond in a similar manner.

If anything, Israel's response has been quite restrained.

Not a peep out of you either in the past week, when the IDF made an incursion in Al-Qarara village and fatally wounded a thirteen year old, as a result of indiscriminate shooting. Israel is a vile rogue state, who constantly ignores international law, and should be held to account.

[khib70]

Great, selective reporting as ever on this forum.

Not a peep out of anyone over the past week or so to report the daily rocket attacks that have been fired constantly from Gaza into Israel by Hamas backed terrorists, but as soon as Israel dares to fire back it's suddenly headline news.

How would you expect a country to react when they're coming under attack, not just every so often, but constantly by groups of people who oppose their very existence and openly state that they want them wiped from the map?

No country on the planet would put up with those sorts of attacks happening from beyond their borders and if Britain was being attacked in a similar way by a country such as Ireland or France, I would expect us to respond in a similar manner.

If anything, Israel's response has been quite restrained.


after being bombarded with 110 rocket attacks in under four days, i reckon israel have every right to retaliate, and good stuff taking one of the terrorist leaders out :agree:

:agree::top marks

Over 200 rocket attacks since Wednesday - three killed today, and Tel Aviv targetted - not a sound from the guardians of international law on here. Israel retaliates with a few air strikes and a targeted attack on a terrorist leader, and the keyboards are rattling again.

As you say, FH, it was ever thus. Where have the defenders of freedom and justice been while Aleppo was burning??? We'll no doubt be kept up to date with selected quotes from Press TV and Information Clearing House.

These double standards border on bigotry and I get angrier about it every time it happens.

[hibsbollah]

Great, selective reporting as ever on this forum.

Not a peep out of anyone over the past week or so to report the daily rocket attacks that have been fired constantly from Gaza into Israel by Hamas backed terrorists, but as soon as Israel dares to fire back it's suddenly headline news.

How would you expect a country to react when they're coming under attack, not just every so often, but constantly by groups of people who oppose their very existence and openly state that they want them wiped from the map?

No country on the planet would put up with those sorts of attacks happening from beyond their borders and if Britain was being attacked in a similar way by a country such as Ireland or France, I would expect us to respond in a similar manner.

If anything, Israel's response has been quite restrained.

Give it a rest with your self-righteous twaddle. You are the ultimate 'selective reporter' on here; you do it every time. your inability to even acknowledge the IDFs killing of almost 1500 civilians the last time Israel bombed Gaza is here for all to see earlier on this thread.

And while we're at it, why don't you remind us why you always support Israeli actions, whatever they are? End of Days, Armageddon, all that jazz?

[LeighLoyal]

Don't aim rockets at Israel and you won't get bombed. Israel has a right to defend itself and go after terrorists that have murdered its citizens. Hamas is an Islamist Sunni militant, terrorist entity sworn to destroy a democractic state and deserves no sympathy. The civilian dead are their fault.

[hibsbollah]

:agree::top marksnot a sound from the guardians of international law on here. Israel retaliates with a few air strikes and a targeted attack on a terrorist leader, and the keyboards are rattling again.

These double standards border on bigotry and I get angrier about it every time it happens.

Maybe some of us, the 'guardians of international law' (I never realised that was a pejorative term, khibs:rolleyes: ) are just fed up of threads like this where each poster just repeats their own prejudices ad infinitum :dunno: That's how I feel anyway. The likes of FalkirkHibs (I lose track of which one is which) may as well just cut n paste from their last posts in 2009. And in fact I think he already has.

[khib70]

Maybe some of us, the 'guardians of international law' (I never realised that was a pejorative term, khibs:rolleyes: ) are just fed up of threads like this where each poster just repeats their own prejudices ad infinitum :dunno: That's how I feel anyway. The likes of FalkirkHibs (I lose track of which one is which) may as well just cut n paste from their last posts in 2009. And in fact I think he already has.

I've actually got a fair bit of sympathy with that view, HB, and I have absolutely no time for Christian end-of-days merchants who support Israel for their own ends.

Neither am I contemptuous of international law. I'm just a bit fed up with it being selectively quoted by opponents of Israel. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that international law is not keen on the indiscriminate firing of missiles into civilian areas, and is pretty solid about a sovereign state's right to defend itself against such attacks. It's also got a bit to say about the use of civilian areas to store and fire weapons. These bits tend not to be quoted.

Weapons, whoever is at either end of them, will not solve this situation and I hope that the Israeli government is not about to embark on another land assault into Gaza. That would be playing into the hands of Hamas who are clearly trying to provoke just such a response, knowing that a substantial tranche of world opinion is opposed to Israel taking any kind of action in defense of its population.

People need to talk to resolve the situation in the interests of all residents of the region. Unfortunately, the dominance of Hamas on the Palestinian side means there isn't anyone obvious or meaningful to talk to.

[Beefster]

And while we're at it, why don't you remind us why you always support Israeli actions, whatever they are? End of Days, Armageddon, all that jazz?

Probably for the same reasons that Betty Boop criticises Israel at every opportunity, ignoring the provocation. I don't really get the whole left/right split on the Middle East TBH.

I'm far from a supporter of the vast majority of Israel's historical actions. However, there comes a point when they have a right to strike back at Hamas - hundreds of rockets being fired into their country seems like a reasonable point to me. If Hamas really cared for the citizens of Gaza, they wouldn't be firing the rockets from built-up areas.

Incidentally, I don't think you can believe much that comes from the IDF or Hamas. I saw a video yesterday where someone was dragged away in Gaza, apparently seriously injured in an air strike. Only flaw was when he jumped up as soon as he thought the cameras were off him and hung around for a while.

[khib70]

Probably for the same reasons that Betty Boop criticises Israel at every opportunity, ignoring the provocation. I don't really get the whole left/right split on the Middle East TBH.

I'm far from a supporter of the vast majority of Israel's historical actions. However, there comes a point when they have a right to strike back at Hamas - hundreds of rockets being fired into their country seems like a reasonable point to me. If Hamas really cared for the citizens of Gaza, they wouldn't be firing the rockets from built-up areas.

Incidentally, I don't think you can believe much that comes from the IDF or Hamas. I saw a video yesterday where someone was dragged away in Gaza, apparently seriously injured in an air strike. Only flaw was when he jumped up as soon as he thought the cameras were off him and hung around for a while.
:agree:Indeed. Shown on the BBC without them noticing anything amiss (aye, right). And not a word from those who so diligently monitor the media for pro-Israel bias.

As for the left/right split, it is rather curious. The left would be pushed to find much in common with Hamas or Hezbollah on pretty much anything, but particularly womens and gay rights.

And I don't think Betty in particular would feel very comfortable for long in the company of members of these organisations. Although I must add that I've come to realise that BB has a deeply held and sincere committment to the Palestinian cause which I for one respect. I suspect that most if not all of those who express anti-Israel sentiments on here at heart have no time for the rocket attacks. But that begs the question - what should Israel do in response? And is what they are doing any different from what any other country would do?

[lyonhibs]

:agree:Indeed. Shown on the BBC without them noticing anything amiss (aye, right). And not a word from those who so diligently monitor the media for pro-Israel bias.

As for the left/right split, it is rather curious. The left would be pushed to find much in common with Hamas or Hezbollah on pretty much anything, but particularly womens and gay rights.

And I don't think Betty in particular would feel very comfortable for long in the company of members of these organisations. Although I must add that I've come to realise that BB has a deeply held and sincere committment to the Palestinian cause which I for one respect. I suspect that most if not all of those who express anti-Israel sentiments on here at heart have no time for the rocket attacks. But that begs the question - what should Israel do in response? And is what they are doing any different from what any other country would do?

Israel gets money from America. Thus, it should sit there and just take it with a smile.

Simples.


Evidently, the above is facetious, and I really cannot claim to know very much about the absolute web of historical intricacies that form the basis of this dispute - green lines, 1946, settlements - legal or otherwise - here there and everywhere. All I do know is that - for various reasons and with various intensity for years and years, these 2 sides have been battering the **** out of one another and then both adopting the rather Old Firm-esque line of, we're not perfect, but by jove, the other side are worse. This achieves - assuming one views a peaceful resolution as the ideal end outcome, not mounting numbers of dead civilians - next to bugger all.

I have no real "preference" for either cause, but what I do have a healthy disdain for is the "affinity" some people/groups of people (Guardian readers, Celtc fans and so on) display for Palestine, believing it to be the trodden on, innocent party in the whole bloody mess, when this is patently not true.

[Sir David Gray]

Give it a rest with your self-righteous twaddle. You are the ultimate 'selective reporter' on here; you do it every time. your inability to even acknowledge the IDFs killing of almost 1500 civilians the last time Israel bombed Gaza is here for all to see earlier on this thread.

And while we're at it, why don't you remind us why you always support Israeli actions, whatever they are? End of Days, Armageddon, all that jazz?

I have my reasons for supporting Israel, I made those public on here in the past (I can't remember if it was on this particular thread or not but I'm sure you'll let me know). I thought it was the right thing to do rather than just sitting back and defending Israel without giving any particular reason for doing so.

I obviously don't expect many people on here (if any at all) to share that particular outlook on the Middle East situation but it's how I feel about the situation and I can't change that.

However it's only one of many different outlooks that I have on this situation. I also support Israel because I have no time for Islamic extremism, I regard it as one of the biggest dangers we have in the world today and it should be defeated whenever and wherever it has a presence and I will always support those who are fighting against it.

I genuinely believe that Israel should be supported in their efforts against groups such as Hamas and I make absolutely no apologies for that.

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out over the coming weeks and months. The political situation now is very different to what it was like back in December 2008, when Israel began its last major conflict with Hamas.

At the time of the last war, Barack Obama had just been elected as president and wouldn't have wanted to cause any controversy after just coming into the post. Four years on, he's just been re-elected for the final time and doesn't have to placate anyone in his own country, namely the massive pro-Israel lobby, as he knows that his popularity is largely irrelevant now as he will be gone in four years, regardless of how he gets on. It will be interesting to see how he responds if Israel continues to attack Gaza in the way that it's attacking it at the moment.

Egypt, for years Israel's biggest regional ally, is almost unrecognisable in comparison with the country that it was back in 2008. Instead of Hosni Mubarak, who despised Hamas and political Islam and supported Israel in their fight against them, being in charge of affairs in Cairo, we now have Mohammad Mursi who is from the Muslim Brotherhood, a group which also has strong links to Hamas. Already in the past few days we've seen Mursi having meetings with top officials from Hamas and strongly condemn Israel in a way that just wouldn't have happened under Mubarak.

In the past 18 months or so, the political landscape of the Middle East has changed dramatically and we have seen many countries being taken over by leaders who are more inclined to support Islamic principles. If you add in the fact that Iran is now as dangerous as ever and closer than ever to developing its nuclear ambitions and I think it stands to reason that this is not good news for Israel.

Whether you agree or disagree with my beliefs on the Middle East is entirely up to yourself. But one of the things I warned about the last time I commented on the Middle East situation (again, it may have been on this thread or it could have been on another one altogether) was that eventually Israel would become more and more isolated and have less and less allies and I think anyone who is looking at the situation just now and compares it to just four years ago can see that this, at least, is true.

And it's only going to get worse for Israel as well.

[Sir David Gray]

:agree:Indeed. Shown on the BBC without them noticing anything amiss (aye, right). And not a word from those who so diligently monitor the media for pro-Israel bias.

As for the left/right split, it is rather curious. The left would be pushed to find much in common with Hamas or Hezbollah on pretty much anything, but particularly womens and gay rights.

And I don't think Betty in particular would feel very comfortable for long in the company of members of these organisations. Although I must add that I've come to realise that BB has a deeply held and sincere committment to the Palestinian cause which I for one respect. I suspect that most if not all of those who express anti-Israel sentiments on here at heart have no time for the rocket attacks. But that begs the question - what should Israel do in response? And is what they are doing any different from what any other country would do?

It's a question I've posed on here many times to those who hold anti-Israel views, the most recent occurrence was just a couple of days ago and I've yet to get a straight answer out of anyone.

I wonder why that might be.

I note today that Jerusalem is the latest target of Hamas rocket fire. Imagine if that was London or Edinburgh, what country on Earth is going to stand by and allow its capital city of all places to come under attack without any kind of retaliation or repercussions?

It's just not going to happen.

[Betty Boop]

]It's a question I've posed on here many times to those who hold anti-Israel views, the most recent occurrence was just a couple of days ago and I've yet to get a straight answer out of anyone.
[/B]
I wonder why that might be.

I note today that Jerusalem is the latest target of Hamas rocket fire. Imagine if that was London or Edinburgh, what country on Earth is going to stand by and allow its capital city of all places to come under attack without any kind of retaliation or repercussions?

It's just not going to happen.

Here is a thought, they could end their brutal occupation, illegal settlement building and the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

[Betty Boop]

Anonymous Operation Israel - Press Release

Thursday - November 15, 2012 2:00 AM ET USA

Greetings World --

For far to long, Anonymous has stood by with the rest of the world and watched in despair the barbaric, brutal and despicable treatment of the Palestinian people in the so called "Occupied Territories" by the Israel Defense Force. Like so many around the globe, we have felt helpless in the face of such implacable evil. And today's insane attack and threatened invasion of Gaza was more of the same.

But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way - we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch. To the IDF and government of Israel we issue you this warning only once. Do NOT shut down the Internet into the "Occupied Territories", and cease and desist from your terror upon the innocent people of Palestine or you will know the full and unbridled wrath of Anonymous. And like all the other evil governments that have faced our rage, you will NOT survive it unscathed.

To the people of Gaza and the "Occupied Territories", know that Anonymous stands with you in this fight. We will do everything in our power to hinder the evil forces of the IDF arrayed against you. We will use all our resources to make certain you stay connected to the Internet and remain able to transmit your experiences to the world. As a start, we have put together the Anonymous Gaza Care Package - http://bit.ly/XH87C5 - which contains instructions in Arabic and English that can aid you in the event the Israel government makes good on it's threat to attempt to sever your Internet connection. It also contains useful information on evading IDF surveillance, and some basic first aid and other useful information. We will continue to expand and improve this document in the coming days, and we will transmit it to you by every means at our disposal. We encourage you to download this package, and to share it with your fellow Palestinians to the best of your ability.

We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel - know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.

We Are Anonymous

We Are Everywhere

[HibeeEmma]

Here is a thought, they could end their brutal occupation, illegal settlement building and the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

Thats it in a nut shell. :top marks

I have no time for Israel and the torture they put the Palestinians through and can't understand people who do. I respect those who are Christian but the religion contradicts itself through its actions. All I ever hear Christians saying is "but it's in the bible" As if it's justification. Israel wasn't around before 1948!

Would love to see Israel without American aid and the Arab spring being taken to Palestine. Enough people are the world support Palestine but there is not united action being taken to stop Israel.

[Beefster]

Thats it in a nut shell. :top marks

I have no time for Israel and the torture they put the Palestinians through and can't understand people who do. I respect those who are Christian but the religion contradicts itself through its actions. All I ever hear Christians saying is "but it's in the bible" As if it's justification. Israel wasn't around before 1948!

Would love to see Israel without American aid and the Arab spring being taken to Palestine. Enough people are the world support Palestine but there is not united action being taken to stop Israel.

There are more Muslims in Israel than there are Christians so I'm not sure of your point.

[hibsbollah]

Israeli peace activist Baskin says he had just received a draft peace accord from the assasinated Hamas leader hours before he was blown up by the IDF, and Israel was aware of the draft.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085

[Big Ed]

I also support Israel because I have no time for Islamic extremism, I regard it as one of the biggest dangers we have in the world today and it should be defeated whenever and wherever it has a presence and I will always support those who are fighting against it.

I cannot see why being opposed to Islamic extremism means that you support Israel.

Israel's justification for its actions are that of self defence: it has nothing to do with the fight against extremism.

[LeighLoyal]

I cannot see why being opposed to Islamic extremism means that you support Israel.

Israel's justification for its actions are that of self defence: it has nothing to do with the fight against extremism.



It is self defence, but anything that rattles these Islamists is to be commended. Don't forget Vittorio Arrigoni.

[VickMackie]

Anonymous Operation Israel - Press Release

Thursday - November 15, 2012 2:00 AM ET USA

Greetings World --

For far to long, Anonymous has stood by with the rest of the world and watched in despair the barbaric, brutal and despicable treatment of the Palestinian people in the so called "Occupied Territories" by the Israel Defense Force. Like so many around the globe, we have felt helpless in the face of such implacable evil. And today's insane attack and threatened invasion of Gaza was more of the same.

But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way - we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch. To the IDF and government of Israel we issue you this warning only once. Do NOT shut down the Internet into the "Occupied Territories", and cease and desist from your terror upon the innocent people of Palestine or you will know the full and unbridled wrath of Anonymous. And like all the other evil governments that have faced our rage, you will NOT survive it unscathed.

To the people of Gaza and the "Occupied Territories", know that Anonymous stands with you in this fight. We will do everything in our power to hinder the evil forces of the IDF arrayed against you. We will use all our resources to make certain you stay connected to the Internet and remain able to transmit your experiences to the world. As a start, we have put together the Anonymous Gaza Care Package - http://bit.ly/XH87C5 - which contains instructions in Arabic and English that can aid you in the event the Israel government makes good on it's threat to attempt to sever your Internet connection. It also contains useful information on evading IDF surveillance, and some basic first aid and other useful information. We will continue to expand and improve this document in the coming days, and we will transmit it to you by every means at our disposal. We encourage you to download this package, and to share it with your fellow Palestinians to the best of your ability.

We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel - know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.

We Are Anonymous

We Are Everywhere

This could get interesting. These guys don't **** about.

It'll be interesting to see how Israel react to these guys of they start hacking their networks and possibly even defense systems.

A few people disappearing in the night!

[Hibbyradge]

I was just offered a job in Palestine. They offered me half a million plus funeral expenses.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Is there a particular reason that people continually insist upon Israel's 'right' to defend itself whilst finding a comparable 'right' for the Palestinians absolutely unconscionable?

Even if we disregard the fact that the occupation is a continuing act of war, it's incredible - if not surprising - to see people start the timeline of this particular outburst where they like. Conveniently forgetting a variety of events that provoked the rocket fire from Gaza. Events such as the fatal shooting of a Palestinian man who strayed close to the border on Nov. 4th. Or the border incursion on Nov. 8th that culminated in the IDF shooting and killing a 12 year-old Palestinian boy.

I'm not sure if it was on this thread but I've posted before about how valued the IDF tactic of provocation and retaliation is. This is a perfect case in point. Killing Ahmed Jabari was a twofer, it got rid of a man who was working hard on putting together a long-term ceasefire and it ensured that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other militant groups would retaliate with high-levels of rocket fire allowing Israel to construct the narrative of 'self-defence' and carry out its spring-cleaning in Gaza.

But the fact that this same pattern is repeated ad infinitum never seems to click with people.

The Israeli ruling-class does not want peace. The Israeli ruling-class likes rocket fire from Gaza. The Israeli ruling-class does not care about the three dead people in Kiryat Malachi.


It is self defence, but anything that rattles these Islamists is to be commended. Don't forget Vittorio Arrigoni.

You remember him so well that you've had to copy and paste his name into your post. Oh, and using the death of a man who committed his life to solidarity with, and defence of, the Palestinians as a stick to beat those people with is beyond vile. We should never forget Vittorio Arrigoni, we should never forget his work and his words,

"Zionism is an abominable, racist and colonial movement. Like all colonial and apartheid system it is in the interest of all that it is swept away. My hope is to see it replaced, without any bloodshed, with a democratic, secular and lay state on the borders of historic Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis coulf live under equal rights of citizenship without ethnic and religious discrimination. It's a wish that I hope will soon become a reality."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Vittorio_Arrigoni_draw.jpg/150px-Vittorio_Arrigoni_draw.jpg

[Betty Boop]

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai said, 'We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infastructure including roads and water'.
.

[davey 2 good]

The israeli state will do anything like as they are backed by the americans since 1948 I still remenber the terrorist attack on st david hotel that killed british soldiers

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

[hibsbollah]

Is there a particular reason that people continually insist upon Israel's 'right' to defend itself whilst finding a comparable 'right' for the Palestinians absolutely unconscionable?

Even if we disregard the fact that the occupation is a continuing act of war, it's incredible - if not surprising - to see people start the timeline of this particular outburst where they like. Conveniently forgetting a variety of events that provoked the rocket fire from Gaza. Events such as the fatal shooting of a Palestinian man who strayed close to the border on Nov. 4th. Or the border incursion on Nov. 8th that culminated in the IDF shooting and killing a 12 year-old Palestinian boy.

I'm not sure if it was on this thread but I've posted before about how valued the IDF tactic of provocation and retaliation is. This is a perfect case in point. Killing Ahmed Jabari was a twofer, it got rid of a man who was working hard on putting together a long-term ceasefire and it ensured that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other militant groups would retaliate with high-levels of rocket fire allowing Israel to construct the narrative of 'self-defence' and carry out its spring-cleaning in Gaza.

But the fact that this same pattern is repeated ad infinitum never seems to click with people.

The Israeli ruling-class does not want peace. The Israeli ruling-class likes rocket fire from Gaza. The Israeli ruling-class does not care about the three dead people in Kiryat Malachi.



You remember him so well that you've had to copy and paste his name into your post. Oh, and using the death of a man who committed his life to solidarity with, and defence of, the Palestinians as a stick to beat those people with is beyond vile. We should never forget Vittorio Arrigoni, we should never forget his work and his words,

"Zionism is an abominable, racist and colonial movement. Like all colonial and apartheid system it is in the interest of all that it is swept away. My hope is to see it replaced, without any bloodshed, with a democratic, secular and lay state on the borders of historic Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis coulf live under equal rights of citizenship without ethnic and religious discrimination. It's a wish that I hope will soon become a reality."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Vittorio_Arrigoni_draw.jpg/150px-Vittorio_Arrigoni_draw.jpg

wow. and i had assumed you'd retired :top marks