The Board!

[HFC 0-7]

My view on the Hibs board is that they have done a fantastic job of getting the clubs financials sorted whilst building a new stadium and training facility. I believe the board have done so well because they are very good business men.

These type of people are good at balancing books and spending money when you know exactly what the return is, ie, spend 2 million and get 1 6,400 all seated stadium. What they are not good at is spending money on things which cant be guaranteed, ie, a footballer. If footballers were bought by going out to suppliers who gave you an exact spec of how many goals they would get in a season and how much income they would generate I am sure our board would be the best in the land. However, what our board is lacking is someone who would 'gamble' that little bit and spend large amounts of money on things that cannot be guaranteed, ie, players.

I think the secret is to strike a balance, someone with the business brain, ie, Petrie and someone with the footballing brain who would be willing to use the clubs money on players with the risk of losing some of it. I am not talking about careless spending but we need to start speculating a little. I would also add that I dont think the chairman with a footballing brain needs to be a hibs fan as that can sometimes cloud the judgement and can lead to needless spending to try and buy success.

By all means the board should still operate by trying to get free transfers and loan deals however I think we need to start spending transfer fees and decent ones too. We are in a position to buy players from our competitors like Dundee Utd and Motherwell which will strengthen us and weaken them and at the same time giving the fans a lift.

My last point re the board is that they should be more open with us regarding the player sales etc. In particular the stokes saga. Should he be sold, I believe they need to come out and tell us why, ie, there was a clause that was met and therefore we had no choice, or the offer was silly money and we couldnt refuse. This will enable the fans to relate to the boards decisions and stop too much un rest amongst us.

[(((Fergus)))]

"someone with the footballing brain who would be willing to use the clubs money on players with the risk of losing some of it"

manager's job?

[Jack]

Can you point me to a club, successful or otherwise, where this openness already happens?
.
There's a couple of very minor clubs where the supporters are the shareholders but thats hardly the same.
.
In fact I'm not sure there's a business in the world that 'explains itself' to its customers the way your calling for.
.
As for the rest of it I thought you were describing Hearts!

[down the slope]

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I'm more than happy in the way Hibs do business.

Stokes leaving isn't exactly a mystery. 1 year left on contract. I would think Hughes had a say in the decision as well.

Sell now and bring in a centre half and 1 or 2 replacement strikers or let him leave for nowt at the end of the season.

The whole thing smacks of panic buying , there is no way this has been planned in the long term and it looks like an exercise to paper over the cracks with the board sanctioning loan deals as they must see the way we are heading under Hughes. He will probably bring in another centre half and drop Bamba such is the way of Hughes, the sooner this sorry exercise
is over the better.

[Kaiser1962]

Football clubs lose money and when your competitors are overspending that makes it doubly difficult to put a decent team on the park. Unless someone has a spare £100m to throw away then thats how its going to remain. Forget the OF cos we cant even get close in terms of money so we need to sign players with a bit of desire, experience and maybe a point to prove. Or we continue to develop our own players and recall Callum and Kurtis but, if they do well, very well, then they too will become targets for other clubs and the cycle continues. Perhaps we should limit squad sizes like they are now doing in England?

As for overstretching the clubs finances to pay wages we cant afford for a very short term gamble on minimal success then no, sorry, been here before. Guys like Stokes will continue to come here and if they do well they WILL move on, this has happened and will continue to happen until the whole system changes, or breaks down, whichever comes first.

[HFC 0-7]

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Football clubs lose money and when your competitors are overspending that makes it doubly difficult to put a decent team on the park. Unless someone has a spare £100m to throw away then thats how its going to remain. Forget the OF cos we cant even get close in terms of money so we need to sign players with a bit of desire, experience and maybe a point to prove. Or we continue to develop our own players and recall Callum and Kurtis but, if they do well, very well, then they too will become targets for other clubs and the cycle continues. Perhaps we should limit squad sizes like they are now doing in England?

As for overstretching the clubs finances to pay wages we cant afford for a very short term gamble on minimal success then no, sorry, been here before. Guys like Stokes will continue to come here and if they do well they WILL move on, this has happened and will continue to happen until the whole system changes, or breaks down, whichever comes first.

How can we not afford this? Right now we still have a good bank balance but still manage to pay for stands and training complexes. We now dont have anything like that to pay for so why not go 2-3 million into debt for a couple of seasons and see what happens on the pitch. If it goes well we will start re couping the money through attendances or through out league positions etc. If we dont do well we will be in exactly the same position we are now, having to sell players to pay for something, in this instance, debt.

I am not talking about going 10 million into debt etc, I am talking about going into debt slightly. There is too much of a fixation now about our balance sheets.

[Antifa Hibs]

I don't get this constant brown nosing of the board.

Granted the debt is slashed yadda yadda, but that is 99% down to the fact we had things to sell. It was just very lucky we had a massive car park to sell, and a few quality players that brought us in millions, nothing to really do with STF/Petrie. It is not as if they miraculously pulled something out the bag, all they done was sell things and invested in everything at Hibernian F.C other than the football team. Not really worthy of the half million pound they take out every season IMO.

[marinello59]

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I don't get this constant brown nosing of the board.

Granted the debt is slashed yadda yadda, but that is 99% down to the fact we had things to sell. It was just very lucky we had a massive car park to sell, and a few quality players that brought us in millions, nothing to really do with STF/Petrie. It is not as if they miraculously pulled something out the bag, all they done was sell things and invested in everything at Hibernian F.C other than the football team. Not really worthy of the half million pound they take out every season IMO.

Sack the board then.
That better? How about be get that foreign guy who runs Hearts in to sort us out. Or Stewart Milne could come down from Aberdeen and give our board a few pointers. Maybe David Murray would be willing to explain to our board how they hand the club over to the bank to run?

[blackpoolhibs]

I think we just have to be a little more patient. I wanted this spending done a few years ago, when we sold the golden generation. Now i can see i was wrong, and there is light at the end of the tunnel. This league is nearly bankrupt, we on the other hand have a little debt, one that will be cleared in the next few years. When this is done, we will then be in a position to pay much more wages than any team outside the old firm, no idea what Hearts will be doing then. At the moment we are only paying a minimal amount more for your Stokes Millers and Riordan, but the rest of our players are all bought from the same bargain basement bucket.

Soon we will be able to buy or get players with a lot bigger budget than our competitors in every position, a budget that will make a difference. Just a little more patience is needed.

[Twa Cairpets]

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I don't get this constant brown nosing of the board.

Granted the debt is slashed yadda yadda, but that is 99% down to the fact we had things to sell. It was just very lucky we had a massive car park to sell, and a few quality players that brought us in millions, nothing to really do with STF/Petrie. It is not as if they miraculously pulled something out the bag, all they done was sell things and invested in everything at Hibernian F.C other than the football team. Not really worthy of the half million pound they take out every season IMO.

The opposite of mounting a "burn the witch/sack the board" campaign is not brown nosing.

Reading your post, it's like Monty Python "what did the Romans do for us"? It's frustrating for us as fans becuase we are massively short-termist in out views. I'm very much on the fence with Hughes, but as a club we are now miles and miles ahead of our nearest competitors - Hearts, aberdeen, Utd - and it will pay dividends when the elements come together. While the familiar "stands empty / we want to watch the players not the training centre" cry will doubtless go up in the long term if we want a succesful team to watch the infrastructure is in place to provide that.

I've been watching mediocrity for 40-odd years. I'm prepared to be patient for another five or ten.

[ahibby]

Some wanted the board sacked when St Johnstone knocked us out of the league cup in Perth midweek many years ago. I don't like the way ST holders are treated in that they are encouraged to buy their ST early and then the board sell our best players just before the season starts. That isn't a new thing it's been happening for a long time and is the reason I stopped buying a ST early doors and ultimately at all. Something doesn't feel right about the club at the moment for me and the board would go some way to making it feel better by treating their ST holders with a bit of respect.

[Antifa Hibs]

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Sack the board then.
That better? How about be get that foreign guy who runs Hearts in to sort us out. Or Stewart Milne could come down from Aberdeen and give our board a few pointers. Maybe David Murray would be willing to explain to our board how they hand the club over to the bank to run?

No-one is saying that. Everyone seems to think Petrie and co are some sort of god send. All they have done is sold things that originally had nothing to do with them. The car park, Brown, Whittacker, O'Connor etc etc etc, all while taking half a million pound per season (which could knock £50 of a head for a season ticket, or sign a £5k a week player for two seasons).

[hibees53]

OK maybe we do have a nice new stand and our own training complex at East Mains but the truth is that the hibs board have no ambition regarding the playing side of the business,everything is done on the cheap,clueless managers,free transfer signings,any decent player sold and they wonder why supporters like myself get pissed of and stop going to games,i really think it is time for Petrie and his pals to wake up to the fact that fans wont pay there hard earned cash to come along and watch the utter crap that is on display at Easter Road at the moment.And no i aint no Jambo just a very disapointed and disollusioned Hibs fan

[marinello59]

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No-one is saying that. Everyone seems to think Petrie and co are some sort of god send. All they have done is sold things that originally had nothing to do with them. The car park, Brown, Whittacker, O'Connor etc etc etc, all while taking half a million pound per season (which could knock £50 of a head for a season ticket, or sign a £5k a week player for two seasons).

Where does the half a million figure come from?
And should they work for free?

[SaudiHibby]

Spot on Antifa. Hibs are risk averse and always will be with the current Board. No-one is suggesting that we become a club that invests heavily in players and it could be argued that any team with Brown (excellent so far in my opinion), Bamba, Spoony, Miller, McBride, Deek and Stokes in it should be doing far better than they have done but only the Board and the Manager know the truth about why that is. In my humble opinion all decisions being taken at the moment are the easy option, the no-brainer option. The target each year is safety which is not good enough for this Hibs fan as it would only take a little bit of risk to get this team firing on all cylinders. That may not involve playing staff but it absolutely does involve the coaching staff. If all they did was get rid of this numpty and got a qualified, ambitious and above all tactically proven manager in, the investment of circa 1 million a year woudl reap dividends. Someone could do wonders with the playing staff (out on loan ones as well) we have.

[Hibs90]

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OK maybe we do have a nice new stand and our own training complex at East Mains but the truth is that the hibs board have no ambition regarding the playing side of the business,everything is done on the cheap,clueless managers,free transfer signings,any decent player sold and they wonder why supporters like myself get pissed of and stop going to games,i really think it is time for Petrie and his pals to wake up to the fact that fans wont pay there hard earned cash to come along and watch the utter crap that is on display at Easter Road at the moment.And no i aint no Jambo just a very disapointed and disollusioned Hibs fan

Are you sure

[HFC 0-7]

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"someone with the footballing brain who would be willing to use the clubs money on players with the risk of losing some of it"

manager's job?

normally I would agree and say that it should be the manager but it needs to be someone at the same level as Petrie and the other board members, someone that can help authorise the use of funds. I dont have a problem with the baord and I have said that they have done a great job, I just think that people like Petrie who are brilliant in business find spending money on footballers very difficult as there are absolutely no guarantees as to how they will play, injuries etc. What the board have spent money on is things like buildings etc where you know what you will get when you hand the money over.

[Caversham Green]

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How can we not afford this? Right now we still have a good bank balance but still manage to pay for stands and training complexes. We now dont have anything like that to pay for so why not go 2-3 million into debt for a couple of seasons and see what happens on the pitch. If it goes well we will start re couping the money through attendances or through out league positions etc. If we dont do well we will be in exactly the same position we are now, having to sell players to pay for something, in this instance, debt.

I am not talking about going 10 million into debt etc, I am talking about going into debt slightly. There is too much of a fixation now about our balance sheets.

I kind of agree with your OP, but you're showing here why someone with a football brain should not run a football club on his own. I do think the right director of football would be a useful addition to the board, but he would have to be balanced by a very good business brain for the club to succeed.

The fact is that as a Scottish football club Hibs are in a very healthy position. In general business terms they are mediocre to poor - noone is going to invest in them in the hope of a decent return on their capital. That's the way it should be, but getting the business/football balance wrong would be disastrous. I predict that at least one SPL or former SPL club will go out out of business (not into administration) in the next three years. It won't be Hibs and it's unlikely to be Celtic, but it could conceivably be any of the others, and it will be because they followed the route you suggest.

[Antifa Hibs]

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Where does the half a million figure come from?
And should they work for free?

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2009/index.htm

Bottom 2/3 paragraphs.

And no, but i'm not the only thinks its a bit of a joke, while we're getting pumped from diddy outfits left right and centre, paying the second most expensive season tickets in the country, our board can still justify that amount to pay themselves.

[smurf]

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Some wanted the board sacked when St Johnstone knocked us out of the league cup in Perth midweek many years ago. I don't like the way ST holders are treated in that they are encouraged to buy their ST early and then the board sell our best players just before the season starts. That isn't a new thing it's been happening for a long time and is the reason I stopped buying a ST early doors and ultimately at all. Something doesn't feel right about the club at the moment for me and the board would go some way to making it feel better by treating their ST holders with a bit of respect.

Very well said.

[smurf]

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Where does the half a million figure come from?
And should they work for free?

A figure i've always been on the lookout for is this....

Our board often make the claim that outwith Rantic and the Yams we spend more on wages than any other club in the SPL.

But i've always wanted to ask "More than any other outwith that three on PLAYING staff"?

Because i believe that what that claim includes is the remuneration of the board and i'd suggest that in boardroom pay we are near if not top of the SPL?

[Twa Cairpets]

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normally I would agree and say that it should be the manager but it needs to be someone at the same level as Petrie and the other board members, someone that can help authorise the use of funds. I dont have a problem with the baord and I have said that they have done a great job, I just think that people like Petrie who are brilliant in business find spending money on footballers very difficult as there are absolutely no guarantees as to how they will play, injuries etc. What the board have spent money on is things like buildings etc where you know what you will get when you hand the money over.

This is an over-simplistic view.

Almost the very last thing I would want on the board is "a football man", by which I guess you mean an ex-player. That is what the manager is meant to be. if you have a "Director of Football" as has been seen time and again, you have conflict and mistrust. The first team squad should be the responsibility of the manager - he identifies who he wants, and makes a case ot the board within agreed budgets. This makes sense, its the quality of the manager is the issue. I'm very ambivalent about Hughes, and I suspect what we need is more money invested in an experienced manager rather than the squad at the moment.

Also, its not right to say the board spend only on things that they can see the tangible value of. The stand has a cost, but it although it may have a capital value on the books, it is essentially worthless if the extra capacity doesnt generate revenue. it would be very naive to think Petrie and the Board don't understand this.

[HFC 0-7]

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I kind of agree with your OP, but you're showing here why someone with a football brain should not run a football club on his own. I do think the right director of football would be a useful addition to the board, but he would have to be balanced by a very good business brain for the club to succeed.

The fact is that as a Scottish football club Hibs are in a very healthy position. In general business terms they are mediocre to poor - noone is going to invest in them in the hope of a decent return on their capital. That's the way it should be, but getting the business/football balance wrong would be disastrous. I predict that at least one SPL or former SPL club will go out out of business (not into administration) in the next three years. It won't be Hibs and it's unlikely to be Celtic, but it could conceivably be any of the others, and it will be because they followed the route you suggest.

I agree with your post, but not sure what you mean re the bit in bold. I said in my post that i think its all about the balance between football brain and business brain. As you seem to be very good re finance etc maybe you could answer this.

Hibs have managed to pay millions on stands and training facilities through player sales. Now that we dont need to pay for any of that, because there is nothing left to build, can we not spend 2-3 million over 3 seasons and see how things go, then, should it not go good we just revert back to whats happening now and sell players to cover the outlay of a few million, then start again spending money on the players?

This sort of model doesnt seem to risky as long as you keep to a strict level of debt, ie, 3 million. If gate receipts, cup runs and league finishes dont start to improve the profit and eating into the 3 million debt then start selling as we do now?

[DarlingtonHibee]

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No-one is saying that. Everyone seems to think Petrie and co are some sort of god send. All they have done is sold things that originally had nothing to do with them. The car park, Brown, Whittacker, O'Connor etc etc etc, all while taking half a million pound per season (which could knock £50 of a head for a season ticket, or sign a £5k a week player for two seasons).

Hibs financial and business strategy is the envy of every other SPL club. Dundee United have even put that on record.

Rod and STF are not "lucky", they are experienced business people, who came in and sorted out a horrific mess at the club, so we can continue to watch Hibernian play football.

We will never out punch the Old Firm, due to their brand / sponsorship deals, and level of support.

Finally, Rod Petrie could easily have earned 2-3 times his salary elsewhere.

History will show that he did a great job for Hibs.

There is no magic answer to sucess on the pitch, it is supply and demand, and the power is will the player's.

We must show faith, and get behind the team as best we can.

My games are limited due to my location, but I'll be making the 300 mile round trip with my son (Hibs kid) for the ICT game.

[Caversham Green]

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No-one is saying that. Everyone seems to think Petrie and co are some sort of god send. All they have done is sold things that originally had nothing to do with them. The car park, Brown, Whittacker, O'Connor etc etc etc, all while taking half a million pound per season (which could knock £50 of a head for a season ticket, or sign a £5k a week player for two seasons).

The point is that they sold these things at the right time. They could have sold the car park ten years before they did and would have got a fraction of the price they did. They were expected to sell Brown and Thomson for £2m in total and got £6.4m instead (that's their 'half-million' saved for eight years right there). There is a lot more to running a football club than just selling things that "originally had nothing to do with them" (how does that work with players' contracts etc anyway?) and again you're showing why a football brain should not be let loose on the business side of a football club.

[marinello59]

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http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2009/index.htm

Bottom 2/3 paragraphs.

And no, but i'm not the only thinks its a bit of a joke, while we're getting pumped from diddy outfits left right and centre, paying the second most expensive season tickets in the country, our board can still justify that amount to pay themselves.

How is that half a million broken down? Who gets what? And why?
How much should they be paid?

[Antifa Hibs]

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Hibs financial and business strategy is the envy of every other SPL club. Dundee United have even put that on record.

Rod and STF are not "lucky", they are experienced business people, who came in and sorted out a horrific mess at the club, so we can continue to watch Hibernian play football.

We will never out punch the Old Firm, due to their brand / sponsorship deals, and level of support.

Finally, Rod Petrie could easily have earned 2-3 times his salary elsewhere.

History will show that he did a great job for Hibs.

There is no magic answer to sucess on the pitch, it is supply and demand, and the power is will the player's.

We must show faith, and get behind the team as best we can.

My games are limited due to my location, but I'll be making the 300 mile round trip with my son (Hibs kid) for the ICT game.

Fair enough. But without the car park and without the super players we brought through, were would we be?

Hibs were extremely lucky to get £10m from the car-park and another £10m+ from Brown, Thomson, Whittacker and O'Connor. If Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Killie etc etc etc had all that, they'd be sound aswell.

[HFC 0-7]

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This is an over-simplistic view.

Almost the very last thing I would want on the board is "a football man", by which I guess you mean an ex-player. That is what the manager is meant to be. if you have a "Director of Football" as has been seen time and again, you have conflict and mistrust. The first team squad should be the responsibility of the manager - he identifies who he wants, and makes a case ot the board within agreed budgets. This makes sense, its the quality of the manager is the issue. I'm very ambivalent about Hughes, and I suspect what we need is more money invested in an experienced manager rather than the squad at the moment.

Also, its not right to say the board spend only on things that they can see the tangible value of. The stand has a cost, but it although it may have a capital value on the books, it is essentially worthless if the extra capacity doesnt generate revenue. it would be very naive to think Petrie and the Board don't understand this.

Should have been more clear. I Did say that in my original post that the person didnt need to be a hibs fan. The person coming in would still need to be a business type but have more of an understanding of football than the current board. This person would not have full control of the funds but be part of the board to discuss using the money. The manager doesnt really have much of a say in the financials of a club they will either ask to have money or be told how much.

regarding the stand, the stand was only built because of the low cost of steel and contruction, they would have spent money on the understanding of the current revenue coming into ER not the possible revenue. When was the last time the board spent decent money on a player transfer fee, bearing in mind we are financially stable, decent sized club and appealing to players?

[Antifa Hibs]

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How is that half a million broken down? Who gets what? And why?
How much should they be paid?

Couldn't tell you, couldn't tell you and couldn't tell you.

Havn't a clue.

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/...9/payroll2.htm

[smurf]

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Rod and STF are not "lucky", they are experienced business people, who came in and sorted out a horrific mess at the club, so we can continue to watch Hibernian play football.

Really?

IIRC Rod joined the board in 1996. In 1997 he was running the show with Cromb sidelined.

At that time we had a reasonably small overdraft arrangement with the bank.

By 2003 our debts were so bad Straiton was again on the agenda with debts over £15 Million.

So they didn't exactly "...come in and sort out a horrific mess at the club". On their watch one was created. (in the main by allowing GJP to go mental in paying the Hurtardo's of this world and Sir Tom going likewise with the interior of the FF Stand...)

2003 until the present credit where its due. The horrific mess has been sorted. But if not for 1.6 Million Garry O'Connor, 100K Derek Riordan, 4.4 Million Scott Brown, 2 Million Kevin Thomson, 2 Million Steven Whittaker, 1.5 Million David Murphy, 400K Ivan Sproule.....

And credit to STF and RP for the stewardship of the club since 2003.

But there was a period of mismanagement 1997-2003 and if not just where would we be today with those lovely transfer receipts 2003 until present?