Diego maradona

[BILLYHIBS]

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Stats are a waste of time comparing. Maradona didn't have the players beside him like Messi has had at Barcelona and Ronaldo at real Madrid. He dragged Napoli from constant relegation battlers to champions of Italy where at that time all the best players were playing like platini. He then drags Argentina to win the world cup when nobody fancied them an won the uefa cup against incredibly strong opposition.
To me maradona is the greatest ever player especially when you consider the brutal treatment he got. Messi and Ronaldo do not have to contend with that brutal treatment plus maradona carried the weight of his country's expectations on his shoulder. I remember my mate going to see him at Hampden and absolutely raving about this kid.
Considering the brutal treatment he got and the weight of expectation on him he just shades it from Pele for me as Pele had great players around him. It's hard to compare eras but I doubt Messi would have coped with Diego's punishment but feel maradona would be sensational in this era with his speed of movement and amazing finishing. All about opinions but I just can't see past the maradona but I do think Messi and Ronaldo are fantastic players. I would bracket them with best,Cruyff and platini.

Agree with all of this

The key thing for me was how brave he was he would take the ball in tight situations and run at players take the rough tackles more often than not bouncing off them and ride them pick himself up brush himself down and go back for more

Saw him at Hampden in 79 see my post and you just knew you had seen something special

[MWHIBBIES]

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Stats are a waste of time comparing. Maradona didn't have the players beside him like Messi has had at Barcelona and Ronaldo at real Madrid. He dragged Napoli from constant relegation battlers to champions of Italy where at that time all the best players were playing like platini. He then drags Argentina to win the world cup when nobody fancied them an won the uefa cup against incredibly strong opposition.
To me maradona is the greatest ever player especially when you consider the brutal treatment he got. Messi and Ronaldo do not have to contend with that brutal treatment plus maradona carried the weight of his country's expectations on his shoulder. I remember my mate going to see him at Hampden and absolutely raving about this kid.
Considering the brutal treatment he got and the weight of expectation on him he just shades it from Pele for me as Pele had great players around him. It's hard to compare eras but I doubt Messi would have coped with Diego's punishment but feel maradona would be sensational in this era with his speed of movement and amazing finishing. All about opinions but I just can't see past the maradona but I do think Messi and Ronaldo are fantastic players. I would bracket them with best,Cruyff and platini.

Messi and Ronaldo have been on the end of some brutal tackles. Napoli were not constant relegation struggles, they were 3rd and 4th a couple of years before he joined. He didn't win the uefa cup against incredibly strong opposition, nothing like the standard that Messi and Ronaldo have beat to win champions leagues. Hearts got to the quarter finals that year.

I agree about statistics to a point. Messi literally doubles him in everything. That isn't because of the players around him. Why do you doubt Messi would've been brilliant? Have you actually seen the guy? Considering how much more professional be was than maradona, he would've absolutely strolled it. Maradona wouldn't have been fit enough or professional enough to be the best in 2020.

[BILLYHIBS]

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Messi and Ronaldo have been on the end of some brutal tackles. Napoli were not constant relegation struggles, they were 3rd and 4th a couple of years before he joined. He didn't win the uefa cup against incredibly strong opposition, nothing like the standard that Messi and Ronaldo have beat to win champions leagues. Hearts got to the quarter finals that year.

I agree about statistics to a point. Messi literally doubles him in everything. That isn't because of the players around him. Why do you doubt Messi would've been brilliant? Have you actually seen the guy? Considering how much more professional be was than maradona, he would've absolutely strolled it. Maradona wouldn't have been fit enough or professional enough to be the best in 2020.

In the Documentary they say that prior to Maradona joining Naples they had only ever won two cups ever in their whole history

Just wondering if you have had the time to watch this excellent Documentary which concentrates on Maradonas time at Naples as it might help to change your opinion of him?

[lyonhibs]

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Messi wins by every metric except international success and he's lost 4 finals, putting in a good shift to get his team to them all. If Higuain scores the 1v1 in 2014 there is no debate imo.

Diego is undoubtedly one of the greatest ever but he wouldn't get close to Messis level in this much more professional modern game.

Messi doubles his numbers in most areas.

Such a 1 dimensional way of analysing it, removing any appreciation for context or era. Messi came into a Barcelona team featuring Xavi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho and Eto'o. Maradona took a serially underperforming Napoli team featuring barely any other top players to 2 scudettos, a Coppa Italia and a UEFA Cup at a time when Sería A was far and away the strongest league in the world. Messi is a magical player but I think 1985-1989 Maradona could achieve, in this era, what Messi has (more or less). He probably wouldn't, thanks to the whole cocaïne thing, but I'm more certain that Messi couldn't have done with a team like Napoli, at that time, what Maradona did.

And also Maradona owned a World Cup in a way Messi never has and I suspect never will.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Such a 1 dimensional way of analysing it, removing any appreciation for context or era. Messi came into a Barcelona team featuring Xavi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho and Eto'o. Maradona took a serially underperforming Napoli team featuring barely any other top players to 2 scudettos, a Coppa Italia and a UEFA Cup at a time when Sería A was far and away the strongest league in the world. Messi is a magical player but I think 1985-1989 Maradona could achieve, in this era, what Messi has (more or less). He probably wouldn't, thanks to the whole cocaïne thing, but I'm more certain that Messi couldn't have done with a team like Napoli, at that time, what Maradona did.

And also Maradona owned a World Cup in a way Messi never has and I suspect never will.

Why are you certain Messi wouldn't? Based on nothing at all.
He would at least be as good.

Messi owned 3 European cups in a way maradona never did. Seriously boring to keep using the teammates argument. He has scored over 700 goals. All those guys are long gone and he is still scoring more in a season than maradona did in two.

Maradona didn't win the world cup on his own either. He scored 5 goals. Valdano scored 4. Burrachaga scored 2.

In 2014 Messi scored 4. Next Argentina player scored 1.

Interestingly, Careca, one of Maradonas hopeless Napoli teammates also scored 5 in 1986.

[lyonhibs]

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Why are you certain Messi wouldn't? Based on nothing at all.
He would at least be as good.

Messi owned 3 European cups in a way maradona never did. Seriously boring to keep using the teammates argument. He has scored over 700 goals. All those guys are long gone and he is still scoring more in a season than maradona did in two.

Who were his team mates for those 3 European Cups? What had they won before in their career? How many international caps did they have? How many of them were generally accepted to be amongst the best in the world in their position?

Maradona had barely any of those benefits going for him in the Napoli or Argentina 86 squad (where if he wasn't scoring, he was assisting) . Messi has had obviously a statistical longer career, a more impressive Wikipedia page and is a phenomenal player but thankfully judging who was the *greatest* player isn't a mere exercise in statistical analysis.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Who were his team mates for those 3 European Cups? What had they won before in their career? How many international caps did they have? How many of them were generally accepted to be amongst the best in the world in their position?

Maradona had none of those benefits going for him in the Napoli or Argentina 86 squad. Messi has had obviously a statistical longer career, a more impressive Wikipedia page and is a phenomenal player but thankfully judging who was the *greatest* player isn't a mere exercise in statistical analysis.

Read my edit. Myth that Napoli and Argentina were rubbish.

Yes Messi had good teammates. He also won better trophies against better teams. Compared the teams Napoli played with 2009 man United or 2015 juventus/Bayern.

[EI255]

Will watch this next few days, trailer looks superb!

Sent from my LG-H840 using Tapatalk

[lyonhibs]

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Read my edit. Myth that Napoli and Argentina were rubbish.

Yes Messi had good teammates. He also won better trophies against better teams. Compared the teams Napoli played with 2009 man United or 2015 juventus/Bayern.

You mean the incredible Milan team of the late 80's - Baresi, Maldini, Van Basten etc. A Juve team featuring Platini (for the first of the 2 Scudettos anyway). Swings and roundabouts there. Anyway, we shall agree to disagree although it would be interesting to see the results of a poll for the greatest footballer ever with only Messi or Maradona as the options.

[mjhibby]

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Messi and Ronaldo have been on the end of some brutal tackles. Napoli were not constant relegation struggles, they were 3rd and 4th a couple of years before he joined. He didn't win the uefa cup against incredibly strong opposition, nothing like the standard that Messi and Ronaldo have beat to win champions leagues. Hearts got to the quarter finals that year.

I agree about statistics to a point. Messi literally doubles him in everything. That isn't because of the players around him. Why do you doubt Messi would've been brilliant? Have you actually seen the guy? Considering how much more professional be was than maradona, he would've absolutely strolled it. Maradona wouldn't have been fit enough or professional enough to be the best in 2020.

Napoli were struggling and were eigth in maradonas first season. You really can't compare the treatment that Pele and maradona suffered to what Messi and Ronaldo hav had to contend with. Maradona was assaulted every time he played. The tackle that gave him his first bad injury was horrendous and the punishment England meted out was shocking. No way has any footballer in the last ten years had to suffer anywhere near what Pele,maradona,eusabio and Cruyff suffered.Im not diminishing the talent of Messi and ronaldo but folk must have blinkers on to not see how so much better protected players are nowadays. As for saying maradona wouldn't have been fit enough is just plain stupid. Medical and physical conditioning are so much better now and I've no doubt maradona would be unstoppable with the protection players get now. Maybe it's a generational thing but if I had a choice who to see in their prime maradona and Pele win every time.

[Since90+2]

Every generation thinks their player is the best.

[mjhibby]

Also how do you know Messi could have coped with the brutality meted out to maradona. Youve absolutely no idea if he could. Maradona,like Kenny dalgliesh,did massive work on his ankles to withstand the batterings. It's a testament to how sensational he was that he partied like there was no tomorrow and yet produced the skills he did. That makes him even more of a genuis in my eyes. Btw I doubt very much that the Argentina commentators would have been as gushing to Messi as they were to maradona. Good to have a debate to get stuck into to distract us from the current events.

[mjhibby]

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Don’t get much more 80’s nostalgia than this:

https://youtu.be/Cdf6D19Etmc

Unbelievable skills. He looks like a kid enjoying himself. Amazingly talented.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

We could debate until the cows come home who's the better player and yes Messi may well be in many regards.

Its very simple though, when Maradona passes away, Argentina will go into a collective state of prolonged national mourning. When Messi dies, Argentina will say "oh how sad" and quickly move on.

[MWHIBBIES]

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We could debate until the cows come home who's the better player and yes Messi may well be in many regards.

Its very simple though, when Maradona passes away, Argentina will go into a collective state of prolonged national mourning. When Messi dies, Argentina will say "oh how sad" and quickly move on.

I really hope that isn't how you judge footballers. That has absolutely nothing to do with who was better.

You'll see a bigger mourining in Scotland when Scott Brown dies than when Eddie Turnbull did. Guess that settles that debate as well?

When they're both long gone, 100 years from now, international success will still be the only real arguement for Maradona vs Messi winning 5 times his trophies, scoring 3 times his goals etc.

Nostalgia is really strong in here. That is fair enough, everyone loves Maradona (bizarre really because the supposed ''cheats'' of today like Suarez and Neymar get slaughtered on here) but objectively, Messi has him easily.

[hibsbollah]

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Read my edit. Myth that Napoli and Argentina were rubbish.

Yes Messi had good teammates. He also won better trophies against better teams. Compared the teams Napoli played with 2009 man United or 2015 juventus/Bayern.

This argument gets dug up every six months or so, you trot out the line that it's a 'myth' that Napoli were miles away from being a top side, without providing any evidence to prove your point. Look at the relative squads of pre Diego Napoli and the Northern powers. It's obvious. And listen to the golazzo episode where they discuss the period.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6zuyIQiVd8ywI6zR7gZBa6?si=uVMMkYByQiSDAAxwz4CFWA

[BILLYHIBS]

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I really hope that isn't how you judge footballers. That has absolutely nothing to do with who was better.

You'll see a bigger mourining in Scotland when Scott Brown dies than when Eddie Turnbull did. Guess that settles that debate as well?

When they're both long gone, 100 years from now, international success will still be the only real arguement for Maradona vs Messi winning 5 times his trophies, scoring 3 times his goals etc.

Nostalgia is really strong in here. That is fair enough, everyone loves Maradona (bizarre really because the supposed ''cheats'' of today like Suarez and Neymar get slaughtered on here) but objectively, Messi has him easily.

So have you watched the Maradona Movie ( Serious Question)?

[MWHIBBIES]

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So have you watched the Maradona Movie ( Serious Question)?

I have not.

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This argument gets dug up every six months or so, you trot out the line that it's a 'myth' that Napoli were miles away from being a top side, without providing any evidence to prove your point. Look at the relative squads of pre Diego Napoli and the Northern powers. It's obvious. And listen to the golazzo episode where they discuss the period.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6zu...QiSDAAxwz4CFWA

They weren't miles away. They obviously weren't a great side and signing him ALONG with other very good players helped. They finished 8th the season he joined, Hellas Verona won their only league title that season, probably a much bigger achievement that anything Napoli done with Maradona and kinda shows winning Serie A wasn't actually THAT difficult. He was there for the entire season, played every game and they finished 8th. They then started signings some other good players to go with him and they finished 3rd and 1st in the next 2 seasons.

If he was taking Napoli to trophies 1 vs 11, why did they finish 8th before he was joined by other good players?

[BILLYHIBS]

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I have not.


They weren't miles away. They obviously weren't a great side and signing him ALONG with other very good players helped. They finished 8th the season he joined, Hellas Verona won their only league title that season, probably a much bigger achievement that anything Napoli done with Maradona and kinda shows winning Serie A wasn't actually THAT difficult. He was there for the entire season, played every game and they finished 8th. They then started signings some other good players to go with him and they finished 3rd and 1st in the next 2 seasons.

If he was taking Napoli to trophies 1 vs 11, why did they finish 8th before he was joined by other good players?

I thought as much

Maradona is a bit of a marmite character you either like him or you don’t

I would certainly recommend that you watch this movie as it is a fascinating watch and love him or hate him you cannot help but like him and well worth watching for the football content alone At the end of the day we all enjoy watching good footballers

In the movie Maradona admits that it took him a couple of seasons to readjust to the pace of Italian football and explains how he achieved this

In his middle four seasons he achieved two Scuddettos one Italian Cup one Super Cup one UEFA Cup and two second place finishes he was also loved and adored by the fans and his team mates up until it all unfortunately goes Pete Tong

Watch it with an open mind I know that Messi will always be your hero but it may change your opinion of Maradona a complicated genius

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

IMO a pointless debate. Both are best of their eras. With neither surviving in each others. Maradona would be banned for life due to lifestyle, Messi wouldn't even have made it as a pro with his growth deficiency that Barca (using modern science and medicines) were able to manage. My favourite players are Zidane and Ronaldo.

I don't like using goals/titles as a way of measuring a players ability. Over a similar period, Nicky Butt has more titles than Steven Gerrard but the latter is clearly miles ahead in terms of ability. Messi broke a record held by Gerd Muller for a number of years, that doesn't mean he was the greatest player until that point. We also play much more games now than 30/40 or 50 years ago, so naturally stats will go up and up for the consistent players.

Both players are unique, and icons of their respective eras. The game has changed so much over the years that in 30 years we'll be deliberating over some new guy and Messi about who was best (by this point Maradona will be discarded in a way Pele gets removed from the convo just now because "the game has changed so much and that wasn't real football" - it was actually)

I'm going to give the movie a watch over the weekend and looking forward to it

[MWHIBBIES]

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I thought as much

Maradona is a bit of a marmite character you either like him or you don’t

I would certainly recommend that you watch this movie as it is a fascinating watch and love him or hate him you cannot help but like him and well worth watching for the football content alone At the end of the day we all enjoy watching good footballers

In the movie Maradona admits that it took him a couple of seasons to readjust to the pace of Italian football and explains how he achieved this

In his middle four seasons he achieved two Scuddettos one Italian Cup one Super Cup one UEFA Cup and two second place finishes he was also loved and adored by the fans and his team mates up until it all unfortunately goes Pete Tong

Watch it with an open mind I know that Messi will always be your hero but it may change your opinion of Maradona a complicated genius

Mate Messi really isn't my hero. He is a tax dodging prick. I am being objective and looking at the facts. I appreciate that Maradona was an excellent player, he is very entertaining and his goal against England is probably the best goal I've ever seen. I'm just trying to point out that he isn't the best ever when he isn't even the best Argentine attacking midfielder ever.

I have an open mind, I've done plenty of research on this and learn more about it whenever it comes up. Messi wins by everything except international success.

[BILLYHIBS]

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Mate Messi really isn't my hero. He is a tax dodging prick. I am being objective and looking at the facts. I appreciate that Maradona was an excellent player, he is very entertaining and his goal against England is probably the best goal I've ever seen. I'm just trying to point out that he isn't the best ever when he isn't even the best Argentine attacking midfielder ever.

I have an open mind, I've done plenty of research on this and learn more about it whenever it comes up. Messi wins by everything except international success.

Pelé but seriously watch it if you get a chance I am sure you will enjoy it

[MWHIBBIES]

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Pelé but seriously watch it if you get a chance I am sure you will enjoy it

I definitely will. He was undoubtedly a brilliant player and an interesting character.

Pele certainly has a case but finding acurate information that doesn't include his 400 training goals is tough.

[BILLYHIBS]

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I definitely will. He was undoubtedly a brilliant player and an interesting character.

Pele certainly has a case but finding acurate information that doesn't include his 400 training goals is tough.

You could say the same thing about our very own Gordon Smith although family members if they were still here would reassure me there is no reason to doubt his greatness

Just looking at Pele’s record 1281 goals in 1361 games friendlies or not add three World Cups kicks Messis record into touch 😜

[MWHIBBIES]

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You could say the same thing about our very own Gordon Smith although family members if they were still here would reassure me there is no reason to doubt his greatness

Just looking at Pele’s record 1281 goals in 1361 games friendlies or not add three World Cups kicks Messis record into touch 😜

Without friendlies if definitely doesn't. Its probably about the same as Messi, Romario and Cristiano Ronaldo.

[BILLYHIBS]

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Without friendlies if definitely doesn't. Its probably about the same as Messi, Romario and Cristiano Ronaldo.

Enjoy the movie

[The Count]

Just watched the movie and really enjoyable.What a player.In the Hand of God game who was the English player that gave him the off the ball forearm smash? He should of see red.Looked like Hodge but he ended up with Maradonas shirt.

[Kato]

If Messi had been a teenager in the 1970's would the growth hormones he took have been available?

[BILLYHIBS]

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If Messi had been a teenager in the 1970's would the growth hormones he took have been available?

What size would he be without them?

[Kato]

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What size would he be without them?

Smaller than he is now.