2012/13 Report Card

[NeilOrrSquareBa]

FWIW
My Hibs report Card Season 2012-2013

Summary
Overall Hibs have made progress this season. The application is still a bit patchy and some dreadful slumps in form meant all the good work at the front was spoilt. After being second in the league at the end of November to end up in the bottom 6 was disappointing.

Results wise the clean sheet versus Hearts this year was a real milestone. We saw in the first game at ER that Hibs were not going to be pushovers. It made me laugh to read after that game that the Hearts fans were seeking protection for their “flair” players from the hammer throwers in the Hibs side. The assaults carried out by some of their SFA registered thugs over the years on our players with little or no recourse remain points of contention between me and any Jambo that want to argue!

We performed better against the League leaders than we have for some time, which was positive. Our attention tends to wander and a lack of application and getting ourselves dirty against the more committed members of this football league cost us a hell of a lot of points. To not beat Ross Country at all over 3 games tells it’s own tale.

The cup run was superb they players and the fans connected and despite an absurd semi-final performance Hibs secured a cup final slot. In the final Hibs were well beaten by a better and more committed team.

The support for this team can grow if they identify that the management of the club have a plan and are slowly working towards the goal. Impacti4ence can best describe a fan. Most of the arguments on this forum and those I see at matches between supporters of the same team are over semantics and caused by differences in perspective.

The manager is has his weaknesses, there is no doubt about that but he does seem to be focussed on bringing a winning mentality to the club. Signing players who HATE to lose and will not be slow in challenging those around them who are not performing.
If we (the fans) give the manager time and are prepared to accept the long game I think we could see some exciting times ahead. We do need a bit of luck in signings, persuading players to moe to ER is not easy but being involved in Europe may sway some. A decent draw and progression would certainly help.

As a club we are viewed by the media as a bit player in the league, and based on results who can ague coherently against that? The only way they (the media) will change their views on our club if we stick it to the other clubs on a regular basis and are up there challenging on all counts at the season’s end.

Support. We need more bums on seats. We’ve a great stadium but even when we have 10k in it seems only half full (probably because it is!!) I welcome any marketing initiative that will get more fans along to games. The Euro qualifiers make a good start point. Cut price tickets. Signed shirt draws. Half time team talks, video screens showing great goals, anything to get the fans back. The main event needs to be entertaining almost as much as winning.
The club needs to help this by improving communication. The initiatives already underway fans feedback groups, Hibs tweets etc all help but a lot more can be done. The club must engage the fans and get them to feel part of the set up.


Barring league reconstruction we have 2 more seasons without Newco. Our goal must be to be no.2 in Scotland before that happens.

It starts today.

[Future17]

I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

[greenpaper55]

The report card would be like my school one-could do better, although we finished the season on a bit of a high there were months of dire stuff before we hit a decent bit of form. I think the manager is on a steep learning curve and i think he still gets things wrong but i hope learns from his mistakes ?. The best bit for me is the younger players coming through and also some decent signings now on board, more of the same please. There is a good chance that we could finish second this year as we should be stronger and other teams seem to be losing many of their best players so big season ahead.

[SlickShoes]

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I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

I think the singling out of Griffiths is harsh, we have made progress since narrowly avoiding relegation.

3 or 4 teams had players that carried them this year, Griffiths was mediocre last year but a revelation this year. Where would motherwell have been without Higdons 26 goals? Billy McKay scored 23 for ICT, McGinn scored 20 for aberdeen who finished in a worse position than us.

What I am trying to say is that there are at least 4 teams that if you remove ONE player from them there league position pretty much turns upside down or worse.

We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

[Heedersnvolleys]

Must do better!


At least one position better in the cup next season ;-)

[patlowe]

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We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

Excellent points - those factors certainly contributed to us missing out on top six, very narrowly at that. In a normal league, the contrasting sense of 'we are decent'/'we have failed miserably' felt by finishing top/bottom six would be much less pronounced.

When Spoony and Cairney were on form Hibs displayed an element of creativity which has been grossly lacking for the past few years. If we are to see excitement back among fans at ER then we need to find a way of sustaining that kind of attacking flair over a season and in a way that doesn't rely on 1/2 players. You only have to look to Motherwell to see that it CAN be done on a relative shoestring, even with a big lump up front.

I'm quietly confident that the signings made so far and the recent emergence of some very promising youngsters put us in a decent position to challenge for top 4 next season. It feels like Fenlon is building a team for once, as opposed to the perennial 'rebuilding', if that makes sense.

[Geo_1875]

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I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

But would they have won 5-1 with Collum instead of Thomson in charge?

If you can't see any improvement over last year you must be visually impaired.

Yes Griffiths scored a lot of goals but we wouldn't have had to play with 10 men if he hadn't been around. I'm sure most other teams would have been the same. Where would Motherwell have been without Higdon or Hertz without Ngoo?

Definite improvement over the previous season but still work to be done.

[AngusHibby]

If we're doing a report card, what players would have got an A+ and what players would have got a dismal F?

[basehibby]

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I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

If yer auntie had baws she'd be yer uncle etc - and if your argument had any more holes it would be a collander.

Griffiths WAS with us last season and we were almost relegated - this season we finished c 20 points better off, beating the Yamboloids twice along the way - but you see no progress?!?

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see

[Stevie Reid]

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I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

So the main arguments for your extremely damning indictment that we haven't improved at all (when we clearly have by any measurable means), are the extremely tired 'where would be without Griffiths?' question, and your prediction of a result from an imaginary match?

[Sergio sledge]

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I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

If we didn't have Griffiths we would have had someone else, they probably wouldn't have had contributed as much as him, but perhaps the team wouldn't have been set up to feed a single player as much and others might have contributed more? You just cannot take one player out of one team and assume we are going to play the season with 10 men, unless you decide to do it with the other teams too. Where would Motherwell be without Higdon, or ICT without MacKay, or Aberdeen without McGinn. What's wrong with a manager building a team around a talent that he has and focussing on that talents' strengths?

We've conceded 19 less goals this season than last and scored 2 more goals. (in 2 less matches) So our attacking hasn't been much of an improvement, but we've gotten much more solid at the back.

The improvement this season hasn't been spectacular, and even Fenlon admitted that not making the top 6 was a failure, but there has been improvements, to deny this is daft.

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With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

Rubbish. Are you saying McGivern isn't better than Kujabi? Taiwo is contributing more than Osbourne ever did. Cairney was a breath of fresh air before he lost form. Docherty might have had some talent, but Clancy is an improvement on him.

This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
D Crawford

and this is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them this season:

B Williams
T Clancy
P Hanlon
J McPake
A Maybury
G Deegan (87)
J Claros
P Cairney
D Wotherspoon (87)
L Griffiths
E Doyle

C Antell
L Stevenson (87)
I Sproule (87)
S Stanton
D Handling
R Caldwell
S Kuqi

Do you honestly think that with the exception of Williams it would be a coin toss as to which team is better?

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With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals

I disagree, one thing we have seen time and again this season is that Fenlon has signed players who may not be much better technically, are much better in their attitude.

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Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

Agree with this, I think Fenlon has made mistakes this season, but hope that he is learning from them. One thing which encourages me is how the young guys have come in and been able to make a positive difference in the team, this has to be in part down to the manager giving them the right environment to come in and make a difference. I think the signs are that Fenlon will be able to bring on the youngsters, look at how he has helped Griffiths as a player. Harris, Caldwell and Handling certainly don't look scared to try things and to try to play football.

[YehButNoBut]

This sums up things in the past few years, if you cannot see any improvement this season then I'm amazed.


• Thirty something points the last 2 seasons
• Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
• Tenth/Eleventh place
• Flirting with relegation
• No Scottish Cup Final for a decade
• European adventures every five years on average
• Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
• Journeymen passing through
• Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
• No youth development
• Disconnect between players, manager, board and supporters
• Disenchanted support, more moaning than singing

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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This sums up things in the past few years, if you cannot see any improvement this season then I'm amazed.


• Thirty something points the last 2 seasons
• Last season closest to bottom in 12 seasons
• SPL loss ratio 55% - Previous worst 44% in 2001/2002
• Tenth/Eleventh place
• Flirting with relegation
• No Scottish Cup Final for a decade
• European adventures every five years on average
• Eight managers in ten years, constant squad rotation
• Journeymen passing through
• Weak keepers, powder puff midfield, hoofball in recent years
• No youth development
• Disconnect between players, manager, board and supporters
• Disenchanted support, more moaning than singing

We haven't caught many opposition out with the ole sprinkler gag ... :(

[Treadstone]

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On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

Disagree. The 4-5-1 we played for about four months never suited Leigh. That he scored a lot of goals were practically down to himself and his ability to get goals out of nothing. If we can keep him and sign a creative player I would be fairly confident of him scoring at least as many again and more striker type goals like his 1st in the semi.

[eastterrace]

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I'm not usually one for being negative and I'll preface this by saying that I didn't renew my seasont ticket last year so I haven't seen as many games this season as I did previously. However:

I don't think we have improved one iota as a team. I think Griffiths' performance this season has been mercurial at times and, without him, we would have been in massive trouble.

With the single exception of Williams, not one of the new signings has actually improved the team overall.

With regard to the cup final, if we had been playing the Hearts team of 12 months ago again last Sunday, I think the score would have been in the region of 5-1 again. The only reason it was a 3 goal margin instead of 4 is that Celtc are too professional/disciplined to really go for it. If it were Hearts, they would have kept at us until the 93rd minute and probably scored more goals.

Next season:

On the assumption that Griffiths will not be back next season, the challenge for Fenlon is now to build a team which gets the best out of the qualities which we do have. That will involve a total reorganisation of formation, strategy and tactics as they are all currently built around Griffiths.

I'm delighted by the introduction of the likes of Harris, Forster, Caldwell and Handling as players getting a fairly regular first-team game. I think the future of Hibernian (and probably most Scottish clubs) is to make the most of our youth systems and the players they produce. For us next season, that will include ensuring that the right environment exists in the dressing room to nurture the talent we undoubtedly have.

what a load o tosh , if we had played hearts it would have been probably 5-1 again, the reason it was that score in the first place was we got a man sent of and they got a penalty that wasnt, so would that have happened again on sunday dont think so,

[neil7908]

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FWIW
My Hibs report Card Season 2012-2013

Summary
Overall Hibs have made progress this season. The application is still a bit patchy and some dreadful slumps in form meant all the good work at the front was spoilt. After being second in the league at the end of November to end up in the bottom 6 was disappointing.

Results wise the clean sheet versus Hearts this year was a real milestone. We saw in the first game at ER that Hibs were not going to be pushovers. It made me laugh to read after that game that the Hearts fans were seeking protection for their “flair” players from the hammer throwers in the Hibs side. The assaults carried out by some of their SFA registered thugs over the years on our players with little or no recourse remain points of contention between me and any Jambo that want to argue!

We performed better against the League leaders than we have for some time, which was positive. Our attention tends to wander and a lack of application and getting ourselves dirty against the more committed members of this football league cost us a hell of a lot of points. To not beat Ross Country at all over 3 games tells it’s own tale.

The cup run was superb they players and the fans connected and despite an absurd semi-final performance Hibs secured a cup final slot. In the final Hibs were well beaten by a better and more committed team.

The support for this team can grow if they identify that the management of the club have a plan and are slowly working towards the goal. Impacti4ence can best describe a fan. Most of the arguments on this forum and those I see at matches between supporters of the same team are over semantics and caused by differences in perspective.

The manager is has his weaknesses, there is no doubt about that but he does seem to be focussed on bringing a winning mentality to the club. Signing players who HATE to lose and will not be slow in challenging those around them who are not performing.
If we (the fans) give the manager time and are prepared to accept the long game I think we could see some exciting times ahead. We do need a bit of luck in signings, persuading players to moe to ER is not easy but being involved in Europe may sway some. A decent draw and progression would certainly help.

As a club we are viewed by the media as a bit player in the league, and based on results who can ague coherently against that? The only way they (the media) will change their views on our club if we stick it to the other clubs on a regular basis and are up there challenging on all counts at the season’s end.

Support. We need more bums on seats. We’ve a great stadium but even when we have 10k in it seems only half full (probably because it is!!) I welcome any marketing initiative that will get more fans along to games. The Euro qualifiers make a good start point. Cut price tickets. Signed shirt draws. Half time team talks, video screens showing great goals, anything to get the fans back. The main event needs to be entertaining almost as much as winning.
The club needs to help this by improving communication. The initiatives already underway fans feedback groups, Hibs tweets etc all help but a lot more can be done. The club must engage the fans and get them to feel part of the set up.


Barring league reconstruction we have 2 more seasons without Newco. Our goal must be to be no.2 in Scotland before that happens.

It starts today.

I'd largely agree with this and don't really have much to add regarding this season.

I would say that the bit in bold is crucial for me. We have progressed, the team are better than when Fenlon arrived but next season will be huge for us. Fenlon has now had a decent length of time at the club and team next year will be 100% his own.

I'm encouraged by the players we have signed up already and I think we have the right man for the job. It will be a challenge though to turn us into a team that are competing at the right end of the table for the full season. Top 6 is a bare minimum, plus a decent performance in the 2 cups (although I think a 3rd final in a row will be very difficult).

We also need to look at adding more creativity and attacking threat to the team. We saw some great displays last year in spells, followed by some awful games where we looked lost going forward. Even if we can somehow keep Leigh we need to get a couple more players in to share the goals and take the pressure off the shoulders of young Harris, who has already become a vital player for us. We lose him, we lose the only real source of pace and directness currently at the club.

There is a great chance for a club/clubs in Scotland to fill the gap left by Rangers demise and Hibs are one of the best placed to do so. Clubs like Motherwell, Dundee Utd, Inverness etc are all losing players and although that is the case with us, we should be in a much better position to strengthen and make a real push for 2nd.

[SaulGoodman]

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This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
.

I think I'm going to be sick.

[Future17]

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I think the singling out of Griffiths is harsh, we have made progress since narrowly avoiding relegation.

3 or 4 teams had players that carried them this year, Griffiths was mediocre last year but a revelation this year. Where would motherwell have been without Higdons 26 goals? Billy McKay scored 23 for ICT, McGinn scored 20 for aberdeen who finished in a worse position than us.

What I am trying to say is that there are at least 4 teams that if you remove ONE player from them there league position pretty much turns upside down or worse.

We are less of a pushover than previous seasons but we still had that large post new year spell where in hibs tradition we play very poorly. This year it coincided with McPake's form dipping and Wotherspoon and Cairney vanishing from the wings, all of a sudden we were a team with a flat defensive midfield and only one attacking outlet in griffiths.

My point, obviously quite poorly made, is that Griffiths has been such a revelation this season, everything about the way we play going forward is built around him. That has worked for us this season because he's been on fire but, in my opinion, it's been done at the expense of progress elsewhere on the pitch which has meant that the team hasn't improved overall. That was my point which I was too lazy to make in greater detail (and still am), but I think it's on a similar line to what you're saying about Wotherspoon and Cairney dropping out of the lineup.

I wasn't comparing us against other SPL teams; I was comparing us this season against us from last season. However, to pick up on your point, taking Griffiths out of the equation leaves us with only 2 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Doyle (10) and Wotherspoon (4). Taking Higdon out of the equation for Motherwell leaves them with 7 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Murphy (10), Law (6), McFadden (5), Ojaama (4) and Hately, Humphrey and McHugh (all 3).

Even discounting the 9 goals from the last 3 of those players, that's 11 goals from other positions which we didn't get. It's debatable whether or not we have the players capable of scoring these "missing" goals, but we certainly don't have the tactics to allow them to do so.

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But would they have won 5-1 with Collum instead of Thomson in charge?

If you can't see any improvement over last year you must be visually impaired.

Yes Griffiths scored a lot of goals but we wouldn't have had to play with 10 men if he hadn't been around. I'm sure most other teams would have been the same. Where would Motherwell have been without Higdon or Hertz without Ngoo?

Definite improvement over the previous season but still work to be done.

Thomson was atrocious last year, but I think we all know he didn't play as big a part in our defeat as we did.

I realise that we wouldn't have played with 10 without Griffths, but it's very unlikely that we would have got someone else who would have contributed as many goals. However, what may have happened is that the corresponding lack of reliance on one striker would have altered our tactics to allow more goals from elsewhere on the pitch. As it stands, we simply don't know what we will be capable of without Griffths.

I've addressed the Mothewell without Higdon point above, but Hearts without Ngoo would be a scary propsect.

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If yer auntie had baws she'd be yer uncle etc - and if your argument had any more holes it would be a collander.

Griffiths WAS with us last season and we were almost relegated - this season we finished c 20 points better off, beating the Yamboloids twice along the way - but you see no progress?!?

There's none so blind as those that refuse to see

Griffiths was with us last season but he wasn't playing the role he has been this season because O'Connor was the main man. This season, everything has been set up around Griffiths which has meant he has improved enormously, but the rest of the team hasn't.

I suppose a good way to evaluate my point would be to guesstimate where we would be if we had just finished the season with a striker other than Griffiths playing that role.

I'm not saying that we haven't had a decent season, I'm saying we haven't improved as a team.

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So the main arguments for your extremely damning indictment that we haven't improved at all (when we clearly have by any measurable means), are the extremely tired 'where would be without Griffiths?' question, and your prediction of a result from an imaginary match?

I'm sorry you find it tired, but surely it's a fairly important question when assessing our performance over the season - particularly when we are likely to face next season without him?

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If we didn't have Griffiths we would have had someone else, they probably wouldn't have had contributed as much as him, but perhaps the team wouldn't have been set up to feed a single player as much and others might have contributed more? You just cannot take one player out of one team and assume we are going to play the season with 10 men, unless you decide to do it with the other teams too. Where would Motherwell be without Higdon, or ICT without MacKay, or Aberdeen without McGinn. What's wrong with a manager building a team around a talent that he has and focussing on that talents' strengths?

I totally agree; my point being that the focus on Griffiths, whilst often benefitting us results-wise, has been to the detriment of the progression of the team overall. I don't think there's anything wrong with a manager building a team around an exceptional player and I'm certainly not having a go at Fenlon; my point is that the team hasn't developed this season and, without Griffiths, we'll have to completely reorganise the way we play.

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Rubbish. Are you saying McGivern isn't better than Kujabi? Taiwo is contributing more than Osbourne ever did. Cairney was a breath of fresh air before he lost form. Docherty might have had some talent, but Clancy is an improvement on him.

For some reason I was thinking McGivern was here last season, so I accept he's been a slight improvement on what we had previously and will hopefully continue to improve as he's still young.

I like Cairney, but his form was always mixed. We don't know what's gone on behind the scenes which has resulted in him all but disappearing, but I don't think he improved what we already had and I don't think he will get a game ahead of Handling and Harris etc.

Taiwo has improved in recent weeks, but I don't agree that he's improved the team. I don't think Clancy has improved us either.

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This is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them last season:

G Stack
C Booth
P Hanlon
S O'Hanlon
I Murray
D Wotherspoon
M Thornhill
L Stevenson
I Sproule
V Palsson
G O'Connor

M Brown
D Stephens
E de Graaf
D Galbraith
M Scott
S Taggart
D Crawford

and this is the team that faced Celtic in our first game against them this season:

B Williams
T Clancy
P Hanlon
J McPake
A Maybury
G Deegan (87)
J Claros
P Cairney
D Wotherspoon (87)
L Griffiths
E Doyle

C Antell
L Stevenson (87)
I Sproule (87)
S Stanton
D Handling
R Caldwell
S Kuqi

Do you honestly think that with the exception of Williams it would be a coin toss as to which team is better?

The team that beat Dunfermline 4-0 at Easter Road at the end of last season was:

Brown, Doherty, Hanlon, McPake, Kujabi, Claros, Soares, Stevenson, Osbourne, O'Connor and Doyle.

With the exception of Griffiths, is that team any worse "on paper" than the team that took the field in the majority of games this season?

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Agree with this, I think Fenlon has made mistakes this season, but hope that he is learning from them. One thing which encourages me is how the young guys have come in and been able to make a positive difference in the team, this has to be in part down to the manager giving them the right environment to come in and make a difference. I think the signs are that Fenlon will be able to bring on the youngsters, look at how he has helped Griffiths as a player. Harris, Caldwell and Handling certainly don't look scared to try things and to try to play football.

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Disagree. The 4-5-1 we played for about four months never suited Leigh. That he scored a lot of goals were practically down to himself and his ability to get goals out of nothing. If we can keep him and sign a creative player I would be fairly confident of him scoring at least as many again and more striker type goals like his 1st in the semi.

But that's what the tactics appeared to be - get the ball to Griffiths and hope he conjures up something magical. It's purely because of his workrate and movement off the ball that these tactics worked against most SPL defences.

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what a load o tosh , if we had played hearts it would have been probably 5-1 again, the reason it was that score in the first place was we got a man sent of and they got a penalty that wasnt, so would that have happened again on sunday dont think so,

As I've stated above, the defeat last May was as much our own doing as anyone external influence. Kidding ourselves over that will only hold us back.

[Stevie Reid]

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I'm sorry you find it tired, but surely it's a fairly important question when assessing our performance over the season - particularly when we are likely to face next season without him?

Questioning how well we will fair without Griffiths in the future is perfectly valid - guessing how we would have done without him retrospectively has absolutely no value whatsoever, and it's ridiculous to use such speculation to claim that we haven't improved as a team.

[Thecat23]

Good start, terrible going into Nov, great cup run, but some eye bleeding football. Prob 5 games out the whole season i've sat and enjoyed. The rest have been grim.

I hope the football improves this season, as Pat said that would happen once he got us stabilised. If not and it's continues to be poor and another bottom 6 finish then with out a shadow of a doubt he should be punted.

[Stevie Reid]

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Good start, terrible going into Nov, great cup run, but some eye bleeding football. Prob 5 games out the whole season i've sat and enjoyed. The rest have been grim.

I hope the football improves this season, as Pat said that would happen once he got us stabilised. If not and it's continues to be poor and another bottom 6 finish then with out a shadow of a doubt he should be punted.

How many games have you seen?

And "terrible going into November?" - we had 3 league games in October and won 2 of them. We won 3 out of our 5 league games in November, and one of the two we lost was a smash and grab by Aberdeen.

[Thecat23]

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How many games have you seen?

And "terrible going into November?" - we had 3 league games in October and won 2 of them. We won 3 out of our 5 league games in November, and one of the two we lost was a smash and grab by Aberdeen.

Ok Dec then.

I agree about the Aberdeen game we really should have won that one. But if you think we played well most of the season I'd say you are watching through green glasses. Most games this season have been poor on the eye at best. If you don't agree that's fair enough.

[Stevie Reid]

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Ok Dec then.

I agree about the Aberdeen game we really should have won that one. But if you think we played well most of the season I'd say you are watching through green glasses. Most games this season have been poor on the eye at best. If you don't agree that's fair enough.

I didn't at any point say that, but I've seen the vast majority of Hibs games this season and the spell that we had in which we were undeniably woefully negative and hardly won a game has been blown massively out of proportion by a lot of people, IMO.

Without any green specs on at all, I've just looked through our league results on Wikipedia and counted 18 games (wins, draws and losses) that I enjoyed. Throw in the cup run and you have 22. Out of 44 games (only 9 of which I didn't see - including 4 away wins), I enjoyed half - more than in the last few seasons combined.

Pat Fenlon is not a negative manager, I have seen more than enough to know that for sure, and I've enjoyed going to ER this season more than I have in a number of years - we have had more good days and great results than any season since 2007, IMO. I agree that if we're not top 6 at the very least next season then Fenlon should go, but it depresses me how many posters on here allow the mid season slump to define him.

[Thecat23]

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I didn't at any point say that, but I've seen the vast majority of Hibs games this season and the spell that we had in which we were undeniably woefully negative and hardly won a game has been blown massively out of proportion by a lot of people, IMO.

Without any green specs on at all, I've just looked through our league results on Wikipedia and counted 18 games (wins, draws and losses) that I enjoyed. Throw in the cup run and you have 22. Out of 44 games (only 9 of which I didn't see - including 4 away wins), I enjoyed half - more than in the last few seasons combined.

Pat Fenlon is not a negative manager, I have seen more than enough to know that for sure, and I've enjoyed going to ER this season more than I have in a number of years - we have had more good days and great results than any season since 2007, IMO. I agree that if we're not top 6 at the very least next season then Fenlon should go, but it depresses me how many posters on here allow the mid season slump to define him.

That's the thing, this is just an opinion. You enjoyed a lot more games than me. I don't agree that Hibs played well in half these games win/lose or draw. I also think he is a negative manager, but in some games he had to be. He could have changed his tactics in a lot of games as well but stuck with long ball to Griffiths. I'm not using the slump to say we were rotten. We won a few games while playing rotten and long ball. Sorry but that's not what I call being entertained. Again though just my opinion. Many will agree along with many who won't. So over all, I didn't think Hibs were anywhere near playing well last season bar a handful of games, and I hope this season we try to play more attacking football with the ball on the deck.

[Stevie Reid]

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That's the thing, this is just an opinion. You enjoyed a lot more games than me. I don't agree that Hibs played well in half these games win/lose or draw. I also think he is a negative manager, but in some games he had to be. He could have changed his tactics in a lot of games as well but stuck with long ball to Griffiths. I'm not using the slump to say we were rotten. We won a few games while playing rotten and long ball. Sorry but that's not what I call being entertained. Again though just my opinion. Many will agree along with many who won't. So over all, I didn't think Hibs were anywhere near playing well last season bar a handful of games, and I hope this season we try to play more attacking football with the ball on the deck.

Of course opinions differ, I just find it unbelievable that you only enjoyed 5 games this season (especially when we won 17). I didn't claim that I enjoyed every victory, btw - there were even two defeats where I enjoyed the game.

Incidentally, which games did we win by playing the long ball?

[Thecat23]

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Of course opinions differ, I just find it unbelievable that you only enjoyed 5 games this season (especially when we won 17). I didn't claim that I enjoyed every victory, btw - there were even two defeats where I enjoyed the game.

Incidentally, which games did we win by playing the long ball?

Off the top of my head we beat Hearts in the Scottish and played long ball most of that game. Away to St. Mirren we played long ball. Also a home defeat against ICT was another long ball to Griffiths most of the game. I'm not the only one BTW, if you watched Pat Nevin on Sportscene talking about us. He often spoke about how we relied on long balls to Griffiths. Sometimes the long ball worked and we managed a win or draw. I personally prefer watching attacking football at ER and not a fan of 4-5-1. It's nice when he does change it and try to attack but to often he's a very defensive minded manager.

[Stevie Reid]

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Off the top of my head we beat Hearts in the Scottish and played long ball most of that game. Away to St. Mirren we played long ball. Also a home defeat against ICT was another long ball to Griffiths most of the game. I'm not the only one BTW, if you watched Pat Nevin on Sportscene talking about us. He often spoke about how we relied on long balls to Griffiths. Sometimes the long ball worked and we managed a win or draw. I personally prefer watching attacking football at ER and not a fan of 4-5-1. It's nice when he does change it and try to attack but to often he's a very defensive minded manager.

We didn't play the long ball against Hearts, we were just *****e going forward until we scored. This is a point that I've made several times before - there's a difference between a team being negative and simply playing badly, and I'm perfectly aware that for a large chunk of the season we were not worth watching.

I was no less disappointed than anyone else at our bad run of form, but I do not agree that he is too often negative. You don't need me to tell you that you are entitled to your opinion, but when you go through our individual results this season, there are many games where it is surely undeniable that we have played in the right way.

[Thecat23]

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We didn't play the long ball against Hearts, we were just *****e going forward until we scored. This is a point that I've made several times before - there's a difference between a team being negative and simply playing badly, and I'm perfectly aware that for a large chunk of the season we were not worth watching.

I was no less disappointed than anyone else at our bad run of form, but I do not agree that he is too often negative. You don't need me to tell you that you are entitled to your opinion, but when you go through our individual results this season, there are many games where it is surely undeniable that we have played in the right way.

We played many a long ball that night, along with playing *****. Was a great result mind you. I agree playing negative and playing badly are two different things. Sadly Hibs for a lot of games done both in games.

Out of interest what games do you think Fenlon played attacking atractive football? Doesn't have to be a win just the games you think? This isn't a go at Fenlon btw just would like to know what you see different from myself. I just can't think of many if i'm honest.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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I wasn't comparing us against other SPL teams; I was comparing us this season against us from last season. However, to pick up on your point, taking Griffiths out of the equation leaves us with only 2 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Doyle (10) and Wotherspoon (4). Taking Higdon out of the equation for Motherwell leaves them with 7 players who scored more than 2 league goals - Murphy (10), Law (6), McFadden (5), Ojaama (4) and Hately, Humphrey and McHugh (all 3).

Even discounting the 9 goals from the last 3 of those players, that's 11 goals from other positions which we didn't get. It's debatable whether or not we have the players capable of scoring these "missing" goals, but we certainly don't have the tactics to allow them to do so.

Hibs won't be able to replace Griffiths from 12/13, probably even if they sign Griffiths again! Therefore they need to replace him (and others) in the aggregate. Hibs have already signed a midfielder who scored 7 SPL goals in 12/13, 7 in 11/12, 5 in 10/11 and 8 in 09/10 (Liam Craig), which is replacing a mixture of mostly Cairney (two goals) and Done (none). Harris created some goals and scored in the semi-final, during the short stint he had in the team. You'd hope to get more from Caldwell (scored two in the post split games).

If they can replace Griffiths and Doyle with two players (even if that includes Griffiths himself) with two players who score 25-30 between them, they should score more goals overall due to Craig + younger players coming through.

[Stevie Reid]

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We played many a long ball that night, along with playing *****. Was a great result mind you. I agree playing negative and playing badly are two different things. Sadly Hibs for a lot of games done both in games.

Out of interest what games do you think Fenlon played attacking atractive football? Doesn't have to be a win just the games you think? This isn't a go at Fenlon btw just would like to know what you see different from myself. I just can't think of many if i'm honest.

The Hearts cup game is a good example of what I am saying though. We played 4-4-2 with Cairney and Wotherspoon out wide and Griffiths and Doyle up front - our set up wasn't negative at all, and it was fear of playing football that resulted in the ball being lumped forward. It certainly wasn't a tactic. In fact, although I do think our team set up has been far too defensive in many games this season, I don't believe for one second that Fenlon in any game instructed the players to simply lump it forward.

Cool, I'll list the games that I have enjoyed this season: -

Sun 12	12:30	Hearts	H	SPL	D	1-1	12,887
Sat 25	15:00	St Johnstone	H	SPL	W	2-0	9,639
Sat 15	15:00	Kilmarnock	H	SPL	W	2-1	9,723
Sat 22	15:00	Inverness Caledonian Thistle	H	SPL	D	2-2	9,908
Sat 6	15:00	Dundee	H	SPL	W	3-0	10,163
Fri 26	19:45	Motherwell	A	SPL	W	0-4	5,301
Sat 3	15:00	St Mirren	H	SPL	W	2-1	10,358
Sun 11	12:45	Dundee United	H	SPL	W	2-1	10,596
Sat 24	15:00	Aberdeen	H	SPL	L	0-1	12,007
Sat 15	15:00	Motherwell	H	SPL	L	2-3	8,817
Sat 29	15:00	Celtic	H	SPL	W	1-0	16,805
Sun 24	16:30	Dundee United	A	SPL	D	2-2	6,160
Wed 27	19:45	Kilmarnock	H	SPL	D	2-2	8,121
Sat 27	15:00	St Mirren	H	SPL	D	3-3	9,264
Sun 12	12:00	Hearts	A	SPL	W	1-2	15,994
Sat 18	15:00	Dundee	H	SPL	W	1-0	9,522

That doesn't include the cup games. There should be two more league games in there (2-2 away to Celtic and 2-1 away defeat to Aberdeen, but the table was messing up when I tried to add them in).

I appreciate some may be up for debate, but in those games I enjoyed the way we played for much of the game (not all in the matches that we lost).