The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibrandenburg]

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Aren't you describing separate women's and mens space's above, which is exactly what separate changing rooms are?

What would you say to a woman nurse who doesn't want to get changed next to a fully intact male?

I'd say her employer has an obligation to provide everyone with safe and discreet changing facilities, even if that means being imaginative or spending money, where there's a will there's a way.

EDIT

And no, I'm describing various solution that are available to provide everyone with the facilities they need.

[Hibspur]

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So if the woman also finds it uncomfortable changing next to a fully intact man, as in the case of the nurse you called a transphobe, then them feeling uncomfortable changing next to a man isn't as important?

Are you suggesting we need to make sure the man is more comfortable in the woman's changing room than the actual woman? The woman who feels uncomfortable is less important than the man's feelings?

A bit misogynist I would suggest? The woman just needs to get on with it as the feelings of the man are more important than her feelings of being uncomfortable?

Remains all too true in general unfortunately.

[He's here!]

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I said I'm not going to get involved in the debate, and I stand by that. But I'm pretty certain I've had a conversation with you before, and IIRC you were able to use Google quite proficiently. I'm sure you can give it a go this time too.

Everyone likes issues to be black and white so they can form an opinion easily. For me, this one needs a bit more critical thinking.

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Yes, every likelihood as I remember being quite vocal on this thread a few years back when it was previously open to all 🙂

I was just interested by your response to somebody stating that your chromosomes can't be changed (irrespective of how that relates to this debate). I got the impression you were implying that's not the case. A quick Google search, as you suggested, confirms that your chromosomes are unalterable, being determined at the moment of conception.

I'm aware of the variations in patterns which may occur in intersex people, but that's not what I think was being referred to in relation to this issue. Being intersex doesn't make you trans and the overwhelming majority of trans women are biological men. They cannot change their sex.

[McSwanky]

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Yes, every likelihood as I remember being quite vocal on this thread a few years back when it was previously open to all

I was just interested by your response to somebody stating that your chromosomes can't be changed (irrespective of how that relates to this debate). I got the impression you were implying that's not the case. A quick Google search, as you suggested, confirms that your chromosomes are unalterable, being determined at the moment of conception.

I'm aware of the variations in patterns which may occur in intersex people, but that's not what I think was being referred to in relation to this issue. Being intersex doesn't make you trans and the overwhelming majority of trans women are biological men. They cannot change their sex.

No, I don't think you can change your chromosomes

The point about intersex people is where do they fit in in the black and white world people like to construct? Sex is nearly always determined by looking at your bits when you're born whilst the chromosomes could potentially 100% contradict that.

I guess all I'm saying is that it's a nuanced debate and anyone who thinks it's a black and white argument needs to think a little bit deeper. This does not, by the way, refer directly to you.

Twice I've tried to bow out of this argument and been sucked back in. Hopefully this time lucky.

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[Hibspur]

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No, I don't think you can change your chromosomes

The point about intersex people is where do they fit in in the black and white world people like to construct? Sex is nearly always determined by looking at your bits when you're born whilst the chromosomes could potentially 100% contradict that.

I guess all I'm saying is that it's a nuanced debate and anyone who thinks it's a black and white argument needs to think a little bit deeper. This does not, by the way, refer directly to you.

Twice I've tried to bow out of this argument and been sucked back in. Hopefully this time lucky.

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I think it's pretty close to black and white if we're looking at what the Supreme Court was deciding. Intersex traits are very varied in how they can present themselves and that isn't really relevant to the ruling.

In saying that, I think that until this (rightly) became such a high profile issue, many people didn't actually understand what transgender meant. I think a lot had some vague idea that it was a sort of 'between sexes' condition (ie a biological variation like intersex). Now that greater exposure has been given to the impact proposals like gender self-id would have (and already have) had on women's rights by giving greater automony to biological men, there's been an understandable kickback by many who were previously unaware, as well as a notable climbdown by former advocates of such proposals.

[Kato]

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It's about a great deal more than a spat on social media.

I wasn't going to bother answering your post but decided just to dsay this.

I never in any way described the issue in terms of it being a mere "spat" on social media.

If you have to strawman posts to get your, apparently very well practiced, points over knock yourself out.

As other people have decided on here it's not a subject which bares much fruit in terms of internet discussion, given how points can be misrepresented, ignored and glossed over.

You carry on though, you seem fascinated.

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[Bishop Hibee]

I’m genuinely interested to know if anyone thinks that sex is ‘assigned’ at birth rather than ‘observed’. I’ve seen and heard the former so many times but having been at the birth of my three sons I fail to see how anyone can honestly believe you’re basically having a guess at what sex your child is.

[He's here!]

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I’m genuinely interested to know if anyone thinks that sex is ‘assigned’ at birth rather than ‘observed’. I’ve seen and heard the former so many times but having been at the birth of my three sons I fail to see how anyone can honestly believe you’re basically having a guess at what sex your child is.

No rational person genuinely believes this. There are obviously those determined to perpetuate such mythology but it's a nonsense.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I’m genuinely interested to know if anyone thinks that sex is ‘assigned’ at birth rather than ‘observed’. I’ve seen and heard the former so many times but having been at the birth of my three sons I fail to see how anyone can honestly believe you’re basically having a guess at what sex your child is.

Isn't it both, isn't sex assigned at birth based on what is observed? Sounds pretty black and white but there are sometimes physical characteristics observed that make assignment difficult.

[He's here!]

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Isn't it both, isn't sex assigned at birth based on what is observed? Sounds pretty black and white but there are sometimes physical characteristics observed that make assignment difficult.

Yes, it SHOULD be black and white but the move towards this phrase is about being polite around the sensitivities of the gender lobby. All it does is create a misleading impression that there's some sort of arbitrariness around an objective biological reality. You're right, on occasion a mistake might be made but it's exceptionally rare and can be easily corrected.

[Hibspur]

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I wasn't going to bother answering your post but decided just to dsay this.

I never in any way described the issue in terms of it being a mere "spat" on social media.

If you have to strawman posts to get your, apparently very well practiced, points over knock yourself out.

As other people have decided on here it's not a subject which bares much fruit in terms of internet discussion, given how points can be misrepresented, ignored and glossed over.

You carry on though, you seem fascinated.

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Sorry if I misconstrued your post.

The point I was trying to make was that I thought you were downplaying the newsworthiness of this issue. Fair enough if you don't see it as a big deal, but for me it is. I only started posting on this thread last week when the Holy Ground forum got opened up but I note that there are over 4,000 posts on the subject which indicates it does bear a pretty decent amount of internet discussion on here at least.

[Kato]

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Sorry if I misconstrued your post.

The point I was trying to make was that I thought you were downplaying the newsworthiness of this issue. Fair enough if you don't see it as a big deal, but for me it is. I only started posting on this thread last week when the Holy Ground forum got opened up but I note that there are over 4,000 posts on the subject which indicates it does bear a pretty decent amount of internet discussion on here at least.

Why is it a big deal for you?

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[Hibspur]

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Why is it a big deal for you?

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I've made my strength of feeling on the subject pretty clear in my posts.