The Trans Rights Debate

[superfurryhibby]

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That's what happens when views become polarised, you get nutcases on both sides.

Yes, indeed.

I also think when such priority and influence is given to a minority issue it creates that very divisive polemic in mainstream society.

For me, the culture war aspect is very significant. How did self certification and access to gender protected safe spaces ever get to be such a significant issue in western society to begin with?

The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

[Kato]

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The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

You don't have to be cynic, it is exactly that and they do.

In the late 70s when NF supporters were ruining gigs an NME writer said if the Tufty Club salute was seen as disgraceful those idiots would be doing that, and the very next week skinheads were seen doing the Tufty Club salute.

Anything seen as divisive - they will be upon it and radicalising polarising views.

What requires a nuanced, calm discussion will now be cluttered with raging bams.

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[Bristolhibby]

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Yes, indeed.

I also think when such priority and influence is given to a minority issue it creates that very divisive polemic in mainstream society.

For me, the culture war aspect is very significant. How did self certification and access to gender protected safe spaces ever get to be such a significant issue in western society to begin with?

The cynic can't help thinking it's something semi manufactured that serves the interests of those who benefit from right wing populism. Trump, Reform and the far right and their supporters must love it.

There’s nothing cynical about it. That’s exactly what happened. Populists love these issues. Things that don’t need evidence people can “feel” it. Then use it as a wedge for every other policy.

The boats, bin collection in Birmingham, Brexit, potholes, trans people, COVID Vaccine, “woke”, BLM.

Standard right wing playbook.

In America Chuck in Abortion, more immigrants, Israel, guns and you have a full set.

J

[jamie_1875]

Are people suggesting the trans issues we are seeing now were manufactured by "right wing" groups or people?

How does that explain the extreme trans activists that pushed this hard, the politicians from all parties who pushed this and the likes of the deranged Maggie Chapman who wants children to transition etc? Was Nicola Sturgeon who was a big supporter really fooled by right wing propaganda and was so easily fooled to push the trans agenda? I mean we literally heard nothing about this until it was progressed by the Scottish Government and the SNP/Greens, were they so easily manipulated? Really?

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the last few posts (which is perfectly possible to be fair)

[Hibrandenburg]

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Are people suggesting the trans issues we are seeing now were manufactured by "right wing" groups or people?

How does that explain the extreme trans activists that pushed this hard, the politicians from all parties who pushed this and the likes of the deranged Maggie Chapman who wants children to transition etc? Was Nicola Sturgeon who was a big supporter really fooled by right wing propaganda and was so easily fooled to push the trans agenda? I mean we literally heard nothing about this until it was progressed by the Scottish Government and the SNP/Greens, were they so easily manipulated? Really?

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the last few posts (which is perfectly possible to be fair)

I think you're totally misunderstanding the last few posts.

[wookie70]

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You don't have to be cynic, it is exactly that and they do.

In the late 70s when NF supporters were ruining gigs an NME writer said if the Tufty Club salute was seen as disgraceful those idiots would be doing that, and the very next week skinheads were seen doing the Tufty Club salute.

Anything seen as divisive - they will be upon it and radicalising polarising views.

What requires a nuanced, calm discussion will now be cluttered with raging bams.

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They have been doing it for decades if not 100s of years. What makes it worse is the left can't win elections against such obvious tactics despite knowing exactly what the playbook of teh other side will be. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6OLyRdydZU&ab_channel=RebelHQ

[Pretty Boy]

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There’s nothing cynical about it. That’s exactly what happened. Populists love these issues. Things that don’t need evidence people can “feel” it. Then use it as a wedge for every other policy.

The boats, bin collection in Birmingham, Brexit, potholes, trans people, COVID Vaccine, “woke”, BLM.

Standard right wing playbook.

In America Chuck in Abortion, more immigrants, Israel, guns and you have a full set.

J

I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

[Kato]

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I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

That is exactly it.


....and it's no mistake that the right wing "messaging" has shot up since 2008, as what was required after that was a bit of socialism. A bit is too much for them however.

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[Andy Bee]

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I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

Your 1st paragraph is basically just about all if not the vast majority of Scandinavian countries and a whole lot more besides. It's not radical to think like that, it's certainly not "extreme left" but unfortunately in the UK two party system we have 650 people, backed up by the MSM that are more incentivised to try to either keep or gain power which doesn't always align to what's best for the country or its people.

[Bostonhibby]

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Your 1st paragraph is basically just about all if not the vast majority of Scandinavian countries and a whole lot more besides. It's not radical to think like that, it's certainly not "extreme left" but unfortunately in the UK two party system we have 650 people, backed up by the MSM that are more incentivised to try to either keep or gain power which doesn't always align to what's best for the country or its people.

All of this, and what PB says above pretty much sums it up for me. If only it wasn't for vested interest and the greedy and powerful wanting even more of what they already have.

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[superfurryhibby]

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I've always maintained that if everyone enjoyed a decent basic standard of living, were paid wages that allowed them to both meet their essential needs and have a bit enjoyment in their life, could afford to buy a house or rent at a rate that didn't hoover up over 50% of their income and had access to public services that were properly functioning then pretty much every 'biggest threat to ever face our country' would disappear or at least significantly quieten down overnight.

That's dangerous 'extreme left' thinking these days though which is exactly why these issues are highlighted to such extreme levels. It's all to create division, fracture working class solidarity and distract from the real enemy. There is a reason actual billionaires pay people from Farage at the top end to a weasel like Darren Grimes on social media huge amounts of money to spew the rhetoric. The latest 'outrage' seems to be feeding children FFS.

I 100% believe if people were happy and content in their own lives they would find the utter bull**** being thrown around laughable rather than something to be genuinely upset about.

Social and economic justice in other words. Who can disagree with what you say other than those that benefit from squeezing every ounce from people. Of course they're not all super wealthy. There is benefit for people all the way down a food chain of exploitative, socially regressive, economic opportunity.

Earlier in the thread Jamie was asking why the centre and centre left parties have run with the trans extreme agenda. I'm no political analyst, but I see the trickle down effect from the impotent American liberal left. In the USA they have no direct political power, but can work within and influence organisations. What happened in Scotland was mirrored elsewhere, it wasn't unique.

Whether Sturgeon believed in what her government was promoting is a moot point. Either way, It was a huge misjudgement from the SNP, they should have saved their radical focus for matters relating to independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ARGi5X8wj/


Absolutely worth a read. IMHO.

[500miles]

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https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ARGi5X8wj/


Absolutely worth a read. IMHO.

"Objective reality doesn't matter, feelings and clothes do"

Come on, we live in a material, definable world. The denial of that importance, the writing off of anyone who understands that as a bigot, is a kind of religious zelotry.
If you ask people to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears they will ask questions, and if you can't give them a straight answer, they won't be happy - and rightly so. It's just gaslighting.


Stood down from politics to speak to rooms of people who agree with her and laugh at her jokes. Tough talking flop.

[Stairway 2 7]

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"Objective reality doesn't matter, feelings and clothes do"

Come on, we live in a material, definable world. The denial of that importance, the writing off of anyone who understands that as a bigot, is a kind of religious zelotry.
If you ask people to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears they will ask questions, and if you can't give them a straight answer, they won't be happy - and rightly so. It's just gaslighting.


Stood down from politics to speak to rooms of people who agree with her and laugh at her jokes. Tough talking flop.

The if you don't agree with trans women being in every women's field then your a fascist right winger, is the kind of thing that has reform and Trump flying. A huge othering of the working classes who are disenfranchised and don't agree with the liberal bourgeois left on many subjects, like biological males hammering women at sports for example, or the middle class in the greens saying don't build houses when thousands can't get a home.

Marina Hyde wrote a good article on the bollocks her words of the lefts tactic of issue bundling. All these varied subjects and issues are left because I say they are and if your disagree with any then you are Trump. She goes into it through the subject of the academy fawning over its star trans women Karla Sofía Gascón, it then coming out she was a horrible bigot and the academy crying

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/07/oscars-award-emilia-perez-progressive

[jamie_1875]

John Swinney still can't answer if a trans woman is a woman. Has been asked multiple times but won't answer, it was a real opportunity for him to take a different path but he avoids answering the question every time. With the court ruling I don't see why he can't have the confidence to answer. If the SNP want this to go away he should be able to answer this question.

[Ozyhibby]

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John Swinney still can't answer if a trans woman is a woman. Has been asked multiple times but won't answer, it was a real opportunity for him to take a different path but he avoids answering the question every time. With the court ruling I don't see why he can't have the confidence to answer. If the SNP want this to go away he should be able to answer this question.

The SNP have moved on and are complying with the law. There are more important issues in Scotland.
You seem obsessed with the subject.


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[jamie_1875]

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The SNP have moved on and are complying with the law. There are more important issues in Scotland.
You seem obsessed with the subject.


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Not as obsessed with you and Labour! But I think it's important that our First Minister can answer questions when asked and give a direct answer, not avoid them.

[Keith_M]

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Not as obsessed with you and Labour! But I think it's important that our First Minister can answer questions when asked and give a direct answer, not avoid them.

Politicians giving direct answers?

Not in this universe.

[jamie_1875]

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Politicians giving direct answers?

Not in this universe.

I know but on this question it's a fairly simple answer, he was asked multiple times in the immediate aftermath of the court ruling and couldn't answer, he was asked at anti right wing summit (or whatever it was) and couldn't answer, Patrick Harvie and Ash Regan answered with a direct Yes and No and he was asked again today. It's obvious he is scared to upset the trans lobby and I know people want this to go away, it would surely go away faster if he could answer the question.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I know but on this question it's a fairly simple answer, he was asked multiple times in the immediate aftermath of the court ruling and couldn't answer, he was asked at anti right wing summit (or whatever it was) and couldn't answer, Patrick Harvie and Ash Regan answered with a direct Yes and No and he was asked again today. It's obvious he is scared to upset the trans lobby and I know people want this to go away, it would surely go away faster if he could answer the question.

You also know that the questioning is about political point-scoring. Whatever he says, whether he says anything, he will be pilloried.

Qed.

[Ozyhibby]

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You also know that the questioning is about political point-scoring. Whatever he says, whether he says anything, he will be pilloried.

Qed.

And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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I'd agree that the issue will no longer be a party-political one. And that's the way it should be.

It will remain one at grass-roots level, though.

[Stairway 2 7]

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And it doesn’t matter. The law is set and the SNP have no intention of changing it. They are leaving culture wars behind and focussing on the economy.
Certain people are desperate to keep the issue alive.


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I hope so but they should make it clear soon, as it will be damaging until it's sorted

The first minister said: "We are considering the details of the Supreme Court judgment, taking the necessary advice from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission about the application of that advice, and that will have a bearing on the judgments that are made in relation to public services and I would expect... all public bodies to operate on that basis and within the law."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kxr4y3mv8o.amp

[Ozyhibby]

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I hope so but they should make it clear soon, as it will be damaging until it's sorted

The first minister said: "We are considering the details of the Supreme Court judgment, taking the necessary advice from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission about the application of that advice, and that will have a bearing on the judgments that are made in relation to public services and I would expect... all public bodies to operate on that basis and within the law."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...kxr4y3mv8o.amp

That is pretty clear? They are going to apply the law? Not much else to be said.
With Forbes part of leadership team there is no way they do anything else.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Also I'd say Swinney should have sacked the looney Maggie Chapman as deputy of the Equalities, Human Rights & Civil Justice Committee when she said 6 year olds should be allowed to medically transition, her having no medical background. Her saying yesterday that the court acted out of bigotry and prejudice should surely be the final nail

[Ozyhibby]

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Also I'd say Swinney should have sacked the looney Maggie Chapman as deputy of the Equalities, Human Rights & Civil Justice Committee when she said 6 year olds should be allowed to medically transition, her having no medical background. Her saying yesterday that the court acted out of bigotry and prejudice should surely be the final nail

Can he do that? Isn’t she a green?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Can he do that? Isn’t she a green?


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Obviously he can't personally sack her, but he must condemn the US republican like comments, attacking the law. He could call for her to step down from the committee. He basically said he disagreed with her opinion. How can both sides of the argument move forward when she is deputy. The faculty of Advocates have made an official complaint against her

The tories have tabled a motion on the committee for her to be removed if the 3 SNP members agree she will be out we'll see I suppose

[Moulin Yarns]

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Obviously he can't personally sack her, but he must condemn the US republican like comments, attacking the law. He could call for her to step down from the committee. He basically said he disagreed with her opinion. How can both sides of the argument move forward when she is deputy. The faculty of Advocates have made an official complaint against her

The tories have tabled a motion on the committee for her to be removed if the 3 SNP members agree she will be out we'll see I suppose

There is no mechanism for any msp to be sack!!

We've been here before, they can be suspended and the whip removed.

[Stairway 2 7]

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There is no mechanism for any msp to be sack!!

We've been here before, they can be suspended and the whip removed.

Whip removed is basically sacked from the party, then she has zero chance as an independent in the next election. But I clarified that obviously Swinney can't personally sack her from the equalities committee but he can have her removed. As the tories have tabled the motion, and if SNP go with it it then goes to parliament. Obviously she has no chance in parliament if the SNP want her sacked from the committee.

It will be interesting how it pans out the pressure from both sides will be big. If they back her a lot of the public will be against, if they get her out the greens will have a hissy

[Kato]

https://youtu.be/PFHVYKrNpNk?si=KhMnaz4hNfhIKbtv

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