What's the point/what can change?

[marinello59]

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We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

The Old Firm would take a lot of money Scottish businesses spend on sponsorship with them.

[TrinityHFC]

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We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

I think that’s a bit over dramatic.

We would have TV games. We’d also have big crowds.

[SickBoy32]

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We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

Sounds awfy similar to the (unfounded) scaremongering that the Better Together campaign employed.

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Change is needed. Or is facilitating the OF all that we can aspire to? Feeding off their scraps and being grateful for it?

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think we would struggle for a TV deal without the OF. The League of Ireland recently signed a 4 year deal with Virgin and I'm sure even the people who run the game here could achieve similar. It's not worth a huge amount but it's consistent income and the current TV deal is hardly worth a kings ransom to a club like Hibs anyway.

I'm always conflicted about them going. Aye winning the league without them wouldn't be the same achievement but then the alternative is never, ever winning the league and increasingly struggling to get near a cup as well. To go back to the LOI Shamrock Rovers have proven in the Conference League that being a smaller league doesn't mean you have to be a backwater. Frankly Hearts and Aberdeen should be embarrassed at how they performed compared to them and Hibs moreso because we never even got close to qualifying through the league. Is more clubs going part time so terrible? I always see it argued we have too many pro clubs anyway so cutting that to those who can genuinely justify being full time organically might be no bad thing.

It's all irrelevant anyway because no one would take them. Short of some resurrected European League (always described as 'inevitable' but seemingly as far away as ever) they have nowhere to go.

[DH1875]

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What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

Your only looking at it from a Hibs point of view though. Rangers and celtic leaving MIGHT benefit us, hearts, Aberdeen. But does nothing for 90% of the other teams. Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen just replace celtic and rangers as the dominant force. You might get a descent Dundee Utd and I'll give you another team but NO ONE else is winning the league. Airdrie, Hamilton, Partick Thistle, Morton, Raith, Dumbarton, QOS, Arbroath, Ross County, St Johnstone and all the rest will all still be the same except there's now no rangers or celtic.
Rangers and celtic leave. We win the league, qualifying for Europe. We invest and squad becomes stronger so we go on to win the league again and qualify for Europe. We win the the again and so on and so on. We follow celtics business plan, model cause like it or lump it, it's where we want to be. Great for us. Does nothing for Scottish football.

[SickBoy32]

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Your only looking at it from a Hibs point of view though. Rangers and celtic leaving MIGHT benefit us, hearts, Aberdeen. But does nothing for 90% of the other teams. Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen just replace celtic and rangers as the dominant force. You might get a descent Dundee Utd and I'll give you another team but NO ONE else is winning the league. Airdrie, Hamilton, Partick Thistle, Morton, Raith, Dumbarton, QOS, Arbroath, Ross County, St Johnstone and all the rest will all still be the same except there's now no rangers or celtic.
Rangers and celtic leave. We win the league, qualifying for Europe. We invest and squad becomes stronger so we go on to win the league again and qualify for Europe. We win the the again and so on and so on. We follow celtics business plan, model cause like it or lump it, it's where we want to be. Great for us. Does nothing for Scottish football.

Don’t really understand this argument.

Within just the last 15 years, off the top of my head I can think of St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Motherwell finishing behind the OF. There will be even more examples of when they’ve finished above Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeen.

The gap between us and the rest is far smaller than the gap from the OF to the rest. Won’t be too long before there’s crap Hibs and Aberdeen teams again, Hearts are obviously already a ***** team. We’d see nowhere near the dominance that the last 40/50 years has given us.

[marinello59]

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Sounds awfy similar to the (unfounded) scaremongering that the Better Together campaign employed.

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Change is needed. Or is facilitating the OF all that we can aspire to? Feeding off their scraps and being grateful for it?

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

[The_Exile]

It is a bit embarrasing that it's been so long since winners outside those two clubs, but it's a similar story all over Europe. Top 5 leagues all have the same winners often. Serie A have had 3 different winners over the past few years but it wasn't that long ago that Juve went on a 9 or 10 in a row run in the 2010's. Bayern are dominant in Germany although Leverkusen snatched it last year. Real Madrid and Barca in Spain, Man City and Liverpool down south have shared the last 8 titles, you have to go back 25 years to find a winner in Porugal outside of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. PSG have won 10 of the last 13 ligue 1's. I'm sure there will be fans of clubs in these leagues that are having similar conversations.

It's up to our clubs to build teams that are capable of consistently getting results like we're doing just now. If we hadn't have had that horrendous start we'd be right up there at least in with a shout of 2nd and a bit more money, you compound that consistency over a good 5 - 10 years then you start getting much better players in and you never know. Leicester done it not long ago in probably the most difficult league in world football for smaller teams to get success. It is possible.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

It's not an issue of ambition though. Sadly, we live in a country where it matters more to follow a club based on sectarian/political lines than it does based on where a person is from. As long as hoards of buses are going towards Parkhead or Ibrox each week from Inverness and Dumfries, nothing is going to change. These clubs will forever hold a significant advantage over the rest of us. The only real chance any club has of competing with them is if some mad man comes in and starts throwing his dodgy cash around and we seen how well that ended with our neighbours.

[SickBoy32]

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We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

Don’t disagree. Which is why I’d be expanding the league to 18 / 20 sides, and simply playing home and away.

It’s the only way anyone will ever get close to challenging them. But as was seen on here recently, folk don’t want to lower income / standard of player across the league / ‘meaningless games’ etc etc.

So we’ll just need to content ourselves with the increasingly monopolised status quo.

[.Sean.]

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I've been of the opinion that this would be for the best for a while now. Yes the league may look like Welsh league or league of Ireland but at least year on year it would be extremely competitive.
Suppose the counter argument to that would be that ourselves, hearts, Aberdeen could then gain investment and become the new old firm dominating the game.

On what planet would our league look like the pishy Welsh one or either the Irish leagues? 😂😂😂

I would love Celtic and Rangers to both **** off and leave the rest of us to it. A competitive Scottish league without them wouod be magic

[Eyrie]

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Don’t disagree. Which is why I’d be expanding the league to 18 / 20 sides, and simply playing home and away.

It’s the only way anyone will ever get close to challenging them. But as was seen on here recently, folk don’t want to lower income / standard of player across the league / ‘meaningless games’ etc etc.

So we’ll just need to content ourselves with the increasingly monopolised status quo.

That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

[B.H.F.C]

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We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

This is where I am. Even in the current set up we should be doing consistently better rather than just having the odd good season. I’d really like to see us sustain some league form over a period of a few years, it rarely happens. Get to a point where we are really getting the maximum out of ourselves. Hopefully a strong finish to this season and the European football can be the start of that.

[TrinityHFC]

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That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

Any given year we could have the likes of us Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd either winners or bottom.

Dundee Utd have been promoted and could be third. A couple of results the wrong way we could have been bottom.

If a Dunfermline or Falkirk got it together they could win the league.

Even if what I’m saying is total pish it’s much more probable than anyone doing anything now.

[Eyrie]

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Any given year we could have the likes of us Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd either winners or bottom.

Dundee Utd have been promoted and could be third. A couple of results the wrong way we could have been bottom.

If a Dunfermline or Falkirk got it together they could win the league.

Even if what I’m saying is total pish it’s much more probable than anyone doing anything now.

That's if we get rid of the Ugly Sisters. However my post was replying to the suggestion of a 18-20 team league with them included.

[SickBoy32]

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That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

Most of the time, aye.

However there would be occasions IMO, like a McInnes Aberdeen, or the current Hibs side - where I believe the title race could be a close run thing, as the consistency vs the lesser sides is there.

[Donegal Hibby]

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We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

I just can’t see anyway that we can compete with the OF though. Read that Celtic’s European games netted them £24mill , add that in with the £77mill they have already in the bank and no one stands a chance .

If they left there’s no doubt the league would be more competitive but the financial losses i think would leave Scottish football in a far worse position then it is right now .

I don’t honestly know if there’s any solution to this at all .

[lugz]

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On what planet would our league look like the pishy Welsh one or either the Irish leagues? 😂😂😂

I would love Celtic and Rangers to both **** off and leave the rest of us to it. A competitive Scottish league without them wouod be magic

What i meant was you take celtic and Rangers out the league and there would be next to no interest in the league outside of Scotland. TV companies wouldn't be rushing to air the league.

[TrinityHFC]

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What i meant was you take celtic and Rangers out the league and there would be next to no interest in the league outside of Scotland. TV companies wouldn't be rushing to air the league.

Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

[lugz]

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Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

I completely agree. I was just responding to why I think scottish football would because similar to the leagues mentioned.

[ancient hibee]

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Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

You don’t seem to realise that the reason we get so much sponsorship and advertising is because we are on TV.It’s cheaper for a company to buy a shirt sponsorship than a TV advertising slot.That’s why TV is so important not what the TV companies pay to televise.

[Pretty Boy]

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This is where I am. Even in the current set up we should be doing consistently better rather than just having the odd good season. I’d really like to see us sustain some league form over a period of a few years, it rarely happens. Get to a point where we are really getting the maximum out of ourselves. Hopefully a strong finish to this season and the European football can be the start of that.

I think that's a fundamental part of the issue though.

Ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen just don't have the budget to compete on 2 fronts for a lengthy part of the season. Group stage football is great but with the size of squads we carry and the schedule demanded by those games qualifying one year seriously dents your chances of doing so again. To really reap the benefits you probably need to get those group stages 2, 3 or 4 years in a row to notice a transformative difference in your financial position. That was hard anyway, after this season it becomes significantly harder again.

I don't think it's lack of effort or ambition on the part of the next 3 biggest clubs. It's lack of adequate resources and the fact it's really, really difficult to build any sustainable (relative) success with those resources. How many times have we read Hibs fans all but discount European games because 'it's the league that matters'? We just aren't in a position to prioritise both and that's what would be required to build any prolonged advancement. Aberdeen probably came closest to achieving it under McInnes but didn't have the European rewards on offer since.

[danhibees1875]

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It is a bit embarrasing that it's been so long since winners outside those two clubs, but it's a similar story all over Europe. Top 5 leagues all have the same winners often. Serie A have had 3 different winners over the past few years but it wasn't that long ago that Juve went on a 9 or 10 in a row run in the 2010's. Bayern are dominant in Germany although Leverkusen snatched it last year. Real Madrid and Barca in Spain, Man City and Liverpool down south have shared the last 8 titles, you have to go back 25 years to find a winner in Porugal outside of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. PSG have won 10 of the last 13 ligue 1's. I'm sure there will be fans of clubs in these leagues that are having similar conversations.

It's up to our clubs to build teams that are capable of consistently getting results like we're doing just now. If we hadn't have had that horrendous start we'd be right up there at least in with a shout of 2nd and a bit more money, you compound that consistency over a good 5 - 10 years then you start getting much better players in and you never know. Leicester done it not long ago in probably the most difficult league in world football for smaller teams to get success. It is possible.

There's a dominance in most leagues from what I can see, ours is maybe slightly more pronounced.

I'm included to believe that whilst there would be a scaling down of revenues it would be in a way that maintained/enhanced competitiveness in the league and the lack of champions league money would curtail a breakaway "new firm" from being overly dominant. Teams would have a larger slice of a smaller pie. OF aside, we still have one of the best supported leagues in the world per capita. Hibs v Dundee attracted 20k, that's without a title race.

Dominance aside, removing the unsavoury element of the Rantic support would provide an opportunity to make the match day a better experience I think. The nuance behind that is open for debate.

Just avoid the worst of both worlds where they 2 leave, along with a chunk of revenue, and their B-teams end up worming in and taking their sizeable chunks of the smaller pie.

[joe breezy]

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Losing the OF would certainly make the league / cups more competitive but I think the loss of revenue from gates , sky , sponsorship etc would see the quality of the league deteriorate , it probably would also have an effect when it came to trying to sign players as well .

Co-efficient for Europe would collapse as well


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[Steve20]

Second half of this season has been excellent for us. However the bigger picture is that there's even less chance for clubs to win a trophy and it's pretty much a guarantee that Celtic will always win at least two trophies and most likely all three.

They have more money than the entire rest of the league put together and then some. They'll buy leagues and trebles for as long as they want.

I pray for the day them and Rangers get lost from our Football. Obviously Rangers are going to win as much as the rest of us, but a breakaway league would want both of those two. So fingers crossed

[Phil MaGlass]

Id have the OF voted out or have the ten other teams resign from the league, start a breakaway 14/16 team league,dont care about the OF. The money we get from being third or lower is a pittance anyway, theres no loss. Teams would still get into Europe, thats why they have the conference.
Maybe we should have a poll if we want to dump the OF, but make the poll available to other clubs.
Steve I also pray for the day they FO.

[danhibees1875]

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Co-efficient for Europe would collapse as well


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I wonder how badly it would actually impact us though. Much like the revenue side - whilst there would be a drop, the bulk of it is already consumed by the OF anyway.

Sounds like even with the OF, the best a non-OF team can achieve from next season will be to enter the europa league third qualifying round.

Also entering those games would be the losers from CL second qualifying round from the champions path. That includes league winners from Hungary, Cyprus, Poland, Croatia, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark. Is that where an OF-free SPFL would sit?... I think probably. So we'd be in the position of having a Champions league game, win = great, lose = same position as we currently have.

If we are being pessimistic and the league would be more akin to a Malta, Gibraltar type of league then the league winners (equivalent of 3rd in today's money) would be in Champions League first qualifying round, and would then go to Conference second round if they lose. Unlikely IMO, we'd be as lowly ranked as this, or that the qualifying team would lose that game... but it's still 2 European qualifiers, one in the Champions Legaue - that, as a worst case scenario, is arguably better than anything Hibs have enjoyed in Europe in my lifetime.

[joe breezy]

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I wonder how badly it would actually impact us though. Much like the revenue side - whilst there would be a drop, the bulk of it is already consumed by the OF anyway.

Sounds like even with the OF, the best a non-OF team can achieve from next season will be to enter the europa league third qualifying round.

Also entering those games would be the losers from CL second qualifying round from the champions path. That includes league winners from Hungary, Cyprus, Poland, Croatia, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark. Is that where an OF-free SPFL would sit?... I think probably. So we'd be in the position of having a Champions league game, win = great, lose = same position as we currently have.

If we are being pessimistic and the league would be more akin to a Malta, Gibraltar type of league then the league winners (equivalent of 3rd in today's money) would be in Champions League first qualifying round, and would then go to Conference second round if they lose. Unlikely IMO, we'd be as lowly ranked as this, or that the qualifying team would lose that game... but it's still 2 European qualifiers, one in the Champions Legaue - that, as a worst case scenario, is arguably better than anything Hibs have enjoyed in Europe in my lifetime.

1. If we had played just okay first half of this season we would be competing for a champions league place (unusual granted)

2. Old Firm are going nowhere for the time being - best chance they could have would be a new European league and they would not be first in the queue and it was massively rejected by English club fans, and English clubs are the main draw globally
England does not want them


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[Centre Hawf]

As a fan I'd happily watch Hibs in a public park with my pals against Joppa, so the prospect of the Scottish game losing a bunch of money from it because they two ****ed off doesn't bother me really, if it means we're sponsored by The Dolphin Chippy vs Utilita's or anyone national level so be it. I understand things like the coeffiency would drop, but I've never seen Hibs in a Group Stage before and if we don't do it this year it's actually just time to accept it's unlikely I ever will (and that's with the Old Firm), so again I find it hard to care too much about that.

Do I enjoy when we beat them both? Absolutely. Of course, this year has been incredible and the wins against both of them has made it all the more better. But while Rangers can always somehow pull a rabbit out the hat and stop Celtic at some point it's fairly depressing that we could genuinely get into a situation where Celtic not just get 10 in a row but sail beyond that figure. You're *almost* wanting Rangers to get bought out to provide some level of actual competition to watch as a neutral as I certainly cannot envisage any situation where any of the rest of us put together some sort of golden generation type team made out of academy kids and lower league gems filled with nothing but a hope and dream and pull off the impossible. To think that is what's going to ever happen now is just fairy tale stuff.

I find it all a bit tiring/exhausting watching Celtic play anyone that isn't Hibs. It's predominantly Harlem Globetrotter stuff now and a waste of everyone's time that doesn't have a dog in the fight. I'd sooner rather watch a 3rd place decider against two of the other teams, or a relegation 6 pointer, top 6 decider etc than Celtic travelling to Ross County to pump them 6-0 and surge onto their one of many many silverwares they'll scoop up over the next decade. But that's just me.

[Hibbyradge]

Every weekend, well over half of the people attending a Premiership football match are watching either Celtic or The Rangers.

In every likelihood, they outnumber everyone else in all 4 leagues

If those 2 clubs went to play in England, those fans would go with them.

We'd end up with only around 50000 people attending matches in the whole country.

The TV and sponsorship money would just fall out of the game and we'd end up wishing we could afford players like Jair, Mueller and Mckirdy. But we couldn't.

Yes, the chances of winning the league would increase, but the quality and entertainment would go through the floor.

Rather than attendances increasing, they would drop. Celtic and The Rangers would go from strength to strength and they would become even more attractive to glory hunters and the likes.

The upside is we might win the league now and again but what a pyrrhic victory that would be.

All in my opinion of course.