What's the point/what can change?

[ben johnson]

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I was very young in the 90s and will happily stand corrected but this feels like the biggest gap certainly as far as I can remember. Not only are celtic winning the league almost every single year they're now financially much better off than Rangers.

Very true. Rangers are behind Celtic because of their own actions
Paying top players EBT style. Tore Andre Floe 12 million.
Handing financial control over to sharks that smelt blood.
If you look at the EPL today. Two giants of the game at one time playing each other. Man U and Wolves. Fair enough Wolves 60s 70s a big team.

[Jones28]

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Oh I'm well aware of the expectations and how things work just stating its a real shame that the product as a whole is very predictable.

Like other have said we have to enjoy the good times and live in hope of winning the occasional trophy.

It’s the unpredictability of football that offers the magic for me. Which is why it is always the ultimate sport for emotional extremes.

I don’t really care about the ins and outs of Scottish football as a whole, it’s not going to change unless something seriously drastic happens that is beyond the will of almost anyone.

Celtic and rangers will dominate, we will take the scraps, the third places, the odd flash of silverware, winning big games, European football. They will take the lions share. I’m fine with that, because I’m Hibs supporter and nothing will change that.

[ChicoM1875]

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Cue Americans entering stage left…

But…

i was coincidentally thinking about this earlier. What can teams do given they don’t have the financial clout and with that in mind what about Hibs?

John Collins was ahead of his time and got it. Although the wheels came off the cart.

One thing you can compete on is fitness. Lack of fitness should NEVER be an excuse at Hibs with the embarrassment of riches we have in terms of facilities and sports scientists.

Be organised and execute game plans

Develops the right culture. Feed off and create an expectation and a “winning culture” easy to say difficult to achieve cos everyone can say that

Hire and develop players with the right character.

Develop the technical attributes of players.

Speed up the execution of patterns of play against the opposition. I’ve watched Arsenal and Newcastle at points this season and they are almost unplayable when they speed up their execution. That needs players of a certain calibre.

Just my logical conclusions in the absence of dosh

And if you look at what SDG has built you can see quite a few if not all of these elements are in place.

I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.

[ben johnson]

[QUOTE=ChicoM1875;7941936]I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.[/QUOTE

I think John Collins tried to bring in train , eat , rest , train in afternoon
Not what the players wanted. I was told by a guy connected to
Hibs that the car park was a dangerous place to wander about after training finished at lunch. All heading out at pace.

[Donegal Hibby]

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I want to assure everybody that the following is now how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

Losing the OF would certainly make the league / cups more competitive but I think the loss of revenue from gates , sky , sponsorship etc would see the quality of the league deteriorate , it probably would also have an effect when it came to trying to sign players as well .

[ChicoM1875]

[QUOTE=ben johnson;7941938]

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I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.[/QUOTE

I think John Collins tried to bring in train , eat , rest , train in afternoon
Not what the players wanted. I was told by a guy connected to
Hibs that the car park was a dangerous place to wander about after training finished at lunch. All heading out at pace.

Aye he probably tried to do the right thing... but he was a bit of a bell end and not a good man manager.

[Pagan Hibernia]

We've outperformed Celtic in the league over the last 4-5 months

[HibbyDave]

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I want to assure everybody that the following is now how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

I would only want them both to f-off if they are not allowed to retain a colts team in Scotland. We all know that the SFA would demand they retain a prescence so just keep the a team please.

[Jim44]

Firstly the answers to the OP’s questions - none/nothing

Celtic’s monopoly will never go away, except for the very rare intervention of a lucky Hun team, at most once or twice every twenty years. There’s absolutely no point in despairing about this fact and certainly no point in prompting prolonged discussion about it. The fact of the matter is that we have a ten team league which we will continue to contest, while snapping up any European tit bits that the Ugly Sisters earn for us in their annual futile European adventures. Sad but true. GGTTH

[Pagan Hibernia]

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I would only want them both to f-off if they are not allowed to retain a colts team in Scotland. We all know that the SFA would demand they retain a prescence so just keep the a team please.

I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

[ben johnson]

[QUOTE=ChicoM1875;7941941]

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Aye he probably tried to do the right thing... but he was a bit of a bell end and not a good man manager.

Scottish International football player. Dragged himself to be the best he could to be called a bell end. Athlete and a football player.

[DH1875]

Said it before and will say it again. If it sucks being a Hibs, hearts or Aberdeen fan then it must really suck being a Hamilton, Partick Thistle or Airdrie fan.

[DH1875]

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I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

It wouldn't.

[tonyrougier123]

They can have this treble, but hibs will win the league next season 💪🏻.
In all honesty I see what the op is saying, I’m a dreamer, I think Edinburgh is growing and when the going is good at Easter road I think we’ve showed the potential a club the size of hibs can and are currently showing we can mix it, if we spend wisely and build a team and importantly don’t drop the ball because Europe has been achieved like we did last time under Ross. The sky is the limit for hibs. With owners willing to back an outsider and fans turning up in they’re droves who knows what hibs could achieve domestically. But as I say I’m a dreamer. Every August I have the greatest enthusiasm for the season ahead.

[TrinityHFC]

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It wouldn't.

It could.

We get very little benefit just now from the TV money, media coverage or the supposedly better players we can attract because they are here.

Crowds come to see successful and competitive team. We currently get more Hibs fans in the stadium for some games not including the Old Firm.

A very competitive league would be left. In most years teams like us could conceivably be be top or bottom.

That competitiveness and the ability to play more meaningful games in terms of winning things would help make up whatever it is the Old Firm bring. It is also relative. We’d be competing against teams also losing or gaining whatever way we think it all works out.

I’ve yet to really hear what we actually get to achieve from the current advantages people think we get with them here?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Money

[ozhibs]

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There’s a photo doing the rounds of Celtic fans streaming out of Hampden at half time. 4-0 up in a semi and the pub is more appealing. I remember their fans leaving before the trophy presentation when they beat us in the LC final a few years ago. Must be pish being a Celtic fan.

I watched the Hibee Buz and Dylan McGeoche. Said that the Celtic won it so often that it didn’t match the passion of the Hibs Scottish Cup win ( or words to that effect)
GGTTH 🇳🇬🇳🇬

[Jones28]

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It could.

We get very little benefit just now from the TV money, media coverage or the supposedly better players we can attract because they are here.

Crowds come to see successful and competitive team. We currently get more Hibs fans in the stadium for some games not including the Old Firm.

A very competitive league would be left. In most years teams like us could conceivably be be top or bottom.

That competitiveness and the ability to play more meaningful games in terms of winning things would help make up whatever it is the Old Firm bring. It is also relative. We’d be competing against teams also losing or gaining whatever way we think it all works out.

I’ve yet to really hear what we actually get to achieve from the current advantages people think we get with them here?

It would be a lot of long term pain but in the end it would leave a better league behind it.

They do bring a bit of European clout in terms of co-efficient which I struggle to give a **** about but we probably need to start looking on it as a positive with the Conference and the money that brings from qualifying.

But then again we have seen what it does to teams who are playing regular European football and how detrimental it can be to their domestic performance.

[Pretty Boy]

The league is gone. No club other than Celtic or Rangers has won it in my lifetime thus far and at not even 40 and assuming a relatively 'normal' lifespan I don't expect that to change. If anyone did it would be a bigger achievement than Leicester winning the EPL, it wouldn't get the same coverage or plaudits but it absolutely would be.

The bigger concern for me is the cups. There was a spell when there was a real mix up of teams winning them. From 2010 to 2016 Dundee United, Hearts, St Johnstone, ICT and Hibs all won the Scottish Cup. Celtic won only 2 of 7. Since then they have won 7 of 9. In the League Cup over the same period Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Aberdeen and Ross County all won it. Celtic won only 1 of 7 and Rangers 2 of 7. Since then Celtic have won 7 of 9. The ludicrousness is summed up by the fact Brendan Rodgers has managed Celtic for 5 years over 2 spells and never lost a Scottish Cup game When even the cups with the unpredictability of knockout football become something of a closed shop then you have issues.

It's not an exclusively Scottish problem though. In the FA Cup since 2000 it has been dominated by Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool Man City and Man Utd winning 22 of the 25 finals. If you look at the 25 years between 1975 and 2000 you see West Ham, Southampton, Ipswich, Spurs, Everton, Coventry and Wimbledon winning it, a couple of them multiple times. The League Cup was a bit different in England as the top teams paid so little attention to it for years, particularly in the early rounds, but the last decade has still seen only Newcastle win it outside the traditional 'top 6'. Again if you look through the 80s and 90s you see teams like Norwich, Oxford, Luton, Sheffield Wednesday and Leicester win it.

Money has irreversibly changed football. There were always bigger clubs who had more money to throw about and thus were more successful but the TV deals, the guaranteed number of games in the Champions League, the huge sponsorship deals, the new fan markets and so on means what was once a gap has become a chasm. The gap previously could be bridged on occasion. Hearts and Hibs did it in the 50s, Dundee and Killie in the 60s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the 80s. In England Derby, Leed and Forest did it in the 70s and Aston Villa and Everton in the 80s since then you have had Blackburn and Leicester in a 30+ year period (and the former spent serious money to achieve what they did). Is it a coincidence that the early 90s and the advent of Sky fottball and the CL saw these real closed shops emerge? I'm not much of one for coincidences.

[hibsbollah]

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The league is gone. No club other than Celtic or Rangers has won it in my lifetime thus far and at not even 40 and assuming a relatively 'normal' lifespan I don't expect that to change. If anyone did it would be a bigger achievement than Leicester winning the EPL, it wouldn't get the same coverage or plaudits but it absolutely would be.

The bigger concern for me is the cups. There was a spell when there was a real mix up of teams winning them. From 2010 to 2016 Dundee United, Hearts, St Johnstone, ICT and Hibs all won the Scottish Cup. Celtic won only 2 of 7. Since then they have won 7 of 9. In the League Cup over the same period Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Aberdeen and Ross County all won it. Celtic won only 1 of 7 and Rangers 2 of 7. Since then Celtic have won 7 of 9. The ludicrousness is summed up by the fact Brendan Rodgers has managed Celtic for 5 years over 2 spells and never lost a Scottish Cup game When even the cups with the unpredictability of knockout football become something of a closed shop then you have issues.

It's not an exclusively Scottish problem though. In the FA Cup since 2000 it has been dominated by Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool Man City and Man Utd winning 22 of the 25 finals. If you look at the 25 years between 1975 and 2000 you see West Ham, Southampton, Ipswich, Spurs, Everton, Coventry and Wimbledon winning it, a couple of them multiple times. The League Cup was a bit different in England as the top teams paid so little attention to it for years, particularly in the early rounds, but the last decade has still seen only Newcastle win it outside the traditional 'top 6'. Again if you look through the 80s and 90s you see teams like Norwich, Oxford, Luton, Sheffield Wednesday and Leicester win it.

Money has irreversibly changed football. There were always bigger clubs who had more money to throw about and thus were more successful but the TV deals, the guaranteed number of games in the Champions League, the huge sponsorship deals, the new fan markets and so on means what was once a gap has become a chasm. The gap previously could be bridged on occasion. Hearts and Hibs did it in the 50s, Dundee and Killie in the 60s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the 80s. In England Derby, Leed and Forest did it in the 70s and Aston Villa and Everton in the 80s since then you have had Blackburn and Leicester in a 30+ year period (and the former spent serious money to achieve what they did). Is it a coincidence that the early 90s and the advent of Sky fottball and the CL saw these real closed shops emerge? I'm not much of one for coincidences.

Its far from unique to Scotland. PSG have no real history, ive been on the planet longer than them, but have won 11 of the last 13 titles and 4 in a row, this season they are still unbeaten with a ridiculous 25 point lead when they inevitably win their game in hand. To your point, theyve won 3 of the last 5 cups as well. The money that the petrostates have pumped into the top teams has further swung the balance.

[Eyrie]

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I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

I don't think it would be have much practical effect.

We'd get a reduced TV deal, but the drop in income will be compensated for by not having to pay out the big money to the Ugly Sisters for finishing first and second every year. The prize money for the league winner would be the equivalent of the money for finishing third at present so there would be no loss for anyone.

The impact on the European places would also be very limited. At present we have group football and probably have an extra place thanks to the Ugly Sisters efforts but that only leaves three places for the other clubs who typically get eliminated during qualifying anyway. Without them the league winner could still have a route to group stage football through UEFA's path for domestic champions.

PS: "Wherever" isn't sending them far enough away for my liking.

[Up-the-slope]

I'm in Charge of Scottish Football - No votes by clubs and they have to do as I say.

Starting Season 2027/28 to give time to adjust contracts etc the following handicap system will apply.

Club with lowest combined season salary / transfer fee * total start season on 0 points. #

For every £1,000,000 above this total other clubs will start with -1 points


*(transfer of 5 million on 2 year contract = 2.5 million added to year total etc)


# (sale of homegrown talent = annual reduction of total divided by length of contract by buying club i.e. sold for 6 million on 3 year deal 2 million reduction)



this season would have had St Mirren @ £4million spend on 0 points and Celtic on £32million starting on -28 points (Hibs likely -5 points) this giving an indication of the disparities

[Up-the-slope]

for comparison. Even in the bonkers EPL the salary difference between top and bottom is 'only' *4.5 in SPL its *8

[scm70nyd1973]

Money is IMHO ruining football - not just what the clubs get but what we have to pay - in Scotland (until 1980) home gate receipts were shared. I just wish that we could reverse the current trend and go one further by placing all gate receipts into one pot for sharing and that wages/transfer fees were capped .

I am of course living in cloud cuckoo land thinking that any clubs would buy into it.

I am dreaming but having said that I was dreaming about a SC win since circa 1962 and it happened 🙏

[Hibbyradge]

If Rantic left the SPFL, I don't think we'd even get a TV deal.

Ok, maybe BBC Alba might pick up the occasional Falkirk v Dundee game and BBC Scotland might pay for the Edinburgh derby, but the clubs would receive a pittance compared to the pittance they already "enjoy".

Very very few people outside Scotland are interested in our football other than than Rantic and we certainly don't have any sort of global appeal.

Despite English football receiving hundreds of millions in TV cash, the lower leagues are given tiny amounts.

Bradford City in League 2 have a higher average attendance than Hibs yet their income is around half of ours.

My mate supports them so I've been to games and I occasionally watch them on TV. It's not pretty.

[Fifeshirehibs]

Four times a season kills the competitiveness. A chairman in the lower leagues told me even down there they hate it when a moneyed version of tic or the rangers appears in a league. Three points for a win compounds the 4 times as well. Proper refereeing would help competitiveness, they can struggle in games where they don't get all the 50/50 or even 40/60s. COLLUM HAS BEEN AN UTTER DISASTER IN THIS RESPECT AND NEEDS TO GO.THE ' SACKING' OF MUIR FROM VAR IS A HORRENDOUS EXAMPLE OF COLLUMS INCOMPETENCE AND COMPLETE UNSUITABILITY TO THE ROLE.

[H18S NX]

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As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon.

...I actually thought the very same after watching the game yesterday.

[TrinityHFC]

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If Rantic left the SPFL, I don't think we'd even get a TV deal.

Ok, maybe BBC Alba might pick up the occasional Falkirk v Dundee game and BBC Scotland might pay for the Edinburgh derby, but the clubs would receive a pittance compared to the pittance they already "enjoy".

Very very few people outside Scotland are interested in our football other than than Rantic and we certainly don't have any sort of global appeal.

Despite English football receiving hundreds of millions in TV cash, the lower leagues are given tiny amounts.

Bradford City in League 2 have a higher average attendance than Hibs yet their income is around half of ours.

My mate supports them so I've been to games and I occasionally watch them on TV. It's not pretty.

What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

[ancient hibee]

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What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

[marinello59]

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What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

What value would winning the title have? You can't be Scottish Champions when the two biggest teams are playing elsewhere. It would be no better than winning the Championship.