Scottish Independence

[Andy Bee]

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With it not going to be a landslide I think it might look like SNP 1 2 will be the best policy

With Labour plummeting and Reform coming in that's far from the best policy unless you want Reform to gain list seats. Maybe the borders and NE but 2nd vote SNP anywhere else gets you a Westminster party as polling stands at the moment.

[Ozyhibby]

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Just thinking here. Could a new party called SNP List vote 2 not set itself up.

Totally independent from the SNP. Own governance, own membership and run?

J

I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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[Andy Bee]

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I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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I've been thinking about this and initially I admit I thought it was gaming the system but our system gives us two votes, what's the point of that if you're thought of as gaming the system if you vote for a different party with your second vote. The system is there to be used by any means you see fit as long as it's legal naw?

[Moulin Yarns]

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With it not going to be a landslide I think it might look like SNP 1 2 will be the best policy

Not for me! The SNP are more centrist now, not wanting to rock the boat. For independence it's got to be SNP 1 and the best placed independence supporting party 2. For most that's likely to be the Scottish Green Party. I've got Mark Ruskell as a list msp and reckon he does a good job.

[Andy Bee]

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Not for me! The SNP are more centrist now, not wanting to rock the boat. For independence it's got to be SNP 1 and the best placed independence supporting party 2. For most that's likely to be the Scottish Green Party. I've got Mark Ruskell as a list msp and reckon he does a good job.

You've also got Sally Hughes I think Indy 4 Indy under the Liberate Scotland umbrella, she seems a decent sort.

[Jack]

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I would not support that. We don’t win independence by gaming the system. We do it by persuading our fellow Scots.


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Unionists have been gaming the system since at least the birth of devolution. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament being a prime example of how a single party could 'never' take control! The fact they did was a nationalist party was an earthquake moment!

Much as I thought I'd be SNP 1 and 2 I'm half considering Alba 2.

I know Alba are bampots but maybe the SNP need a rocket up their bahookie and in a position of responsibility maybe Alba would, with the thought of independence that much closer, would act like grown ups!

We'll see.

[Andy Bee]

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Unionists have been gaming the system since at least the birth of devolution. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament being a prime example of how a nationalist party could 'never' take control! The fact they did was an earthquake moment!

Much as I thought I'd be SNP 1 and 2 I'm half considering Alba 2.

I know Alba are bampots but maybe the SNP need a rocket up their bahookie and in a position of responsibility maybe Alba would, with the thought of independence that much closer, would act like grown ups!

We'll see.

I'm in the exact same boat, if the SNP don't get their arse in gear then maybe an opposition who believe in the same thing could make them. Here's a novel idea, the SNP stand down in the list seats they know they can't win and then maybe the latest 56% for Indy vote for them in the constituency giving them a majority. I know, pigs may fly.

[jamie_1875]

We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?

[Kato]

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We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?

Maybe they'll want a change that brings a bigger push toward independence?

It does begger the question what Labour Party voters want when the vote for a party with no traditional labour policies and that bows to neoliberalism at every turn.

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[jamie_1875]

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Maybe they'll want a change that brings a bigger push toward independence?

It does begger the question what Labour Party voters want when the vote for a party with no traditional labour policies and that bows to neoliberalism at every turn.

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A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

[Andy Bee]

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A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

Introducing another Indy party via the list vote will force the issue, it'll register a pro indy majority to the UN, it'll raise the pressure on the UKG and most of all it will have a devolved SG with only Scotland controlled parties in charge. What's the problem with that?

[jamie_1875]

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Introducing another Indy party via the list vote will force the issue, it'll register a pro indy majority to the UN, it'll raise the pressure on the UKG and most of all it will have a devolved SG with only Scotland controlled parties in charge. What's the problem with that?

Force what issue? There has been a pro Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament for 15 years now! The SNP have been in power and have elected the FM since 2011. So the things you describe above already exist today. No party other than the SNP and Greens have been in government in Scotland since 2011.

You seriously believe the UN are going to intervene and destabilise the UK in the current world climate, the UN don't care. I mean when have the UN ever uttered a word about Scotland? Thinking the UN are going to do something and break up the UK is for the birds I am afraid. As for raising the pressure on the UK Government that's been said for year's now and it makes no difference.

It's not a problem and I get why if you support Indy you have to pursue this and people will vote for what they believe in but I just don't see any difference another pro Indy majority will make to Independence.

[Kato]

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A bigger push, bigger than declaring there will be a referendum in October 23, taking it to the Supreme Court, declaring a de facto referendum and then making Independence line one page of their manifesto? The SNP just disbanded their separate Independence unit (consumed into some other wider department) and have stopped the series of papers that were being produced under previous leaders. I am sure they will talk up Indy in the run up to the election like they do at every other election to get the votes.

I mean if you support Indy you can't really vote for anyone else that can be considered a serious player for delivering Independence but I don't see anything changing with another pro Indy majority for 5 years seeing as we have had that for close to 15 years.

Support for Independence has grown a lot in 15 years. Another 5 years and it will grow some more.

I couldn't give a monkeys about the SNP and thought their stunts and legal battles after 2014 have been pointless and a bit silly, none of it has been counterproductive though as support for independence keeps growing.

Around 10% of Tory voters are pro-indepedence. 25-30% of Labour voters are pro-independence. Demographics say its only a matter of time whether I want independence or not.

The only real block on it would be an actual Labour Party but there hasn't been one of them in power since Punk Rock.



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[Andy Bee]

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Force what issue? There has been a pro Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament for 15 years now! The SNP have been in power and have elected the FM since 2011. So the things you describe above already exist today. No party other than the SNP and Greens have been in government in Scotland since 2011.

You seriously believe the UN are going to intervene and destabilise the UK in the current world climate, the UN don't care. I mean when have the UN ever uttered a word about Scotland? Thinking the UN are going to do something and break up the UK is for the birds I am afraid. As for raising the pressure on the UK Government that's been said for year's now and it makes no difference.

It's not a problem and I get why if you support Indy you have to pursue this and people will vote for what they believe in but I just don't see any difference another pro Indy majority will make to Independence.

I'm not saying the UN will intervene, I'm saying the UN will have to recognise a democratic vote has returned around 100 Indy seats out of 129. It's at that point Indy will be Internationally accepted as legally binding.

[Jack]

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We have had a pro Indy parliament since 2011 with the SNP being the biggest party, all those saying they will give the SNP another chance what are you expecting to change with another pro Indy majority?

Even if the independence voters put independence to one side it could quite easy be argued that the SNP has been a better ruling party in Scotland than the torys or Labour have been in England and without doubt better than Labour in Wales.

Why do unionists keep on voting for unionist parties when they're obviously not so good at running things as the SNP are?

[jamie_1875]

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I'm not saying the UN will intervene, I'm saying the UN will have to recognise a democratic vote has returned around 100 Indy seats out of 129. It's at that point Indy will be Internationally accepted as legally binding.

You say the UN "will have to recognise" but the UN don't have to do anything, who will make them? Also you said it will be Legally binding but in what way? What law and under what legal jurisdiction?

I am guessing this is a new strategy and I am interested to see where it goes but I suspect the UN aren't going to help facilitate the break up of the UK as easy as it seems to be suggested.

[Moulin Yarns]

How have other countries become independent and become members of the UN?

Well here's one example

June 1991*: Croatia and Slovenia declare their independence from Yugoslavia, and are fully recognized by the international community.September 8 1991*: Macedonia held a national referendum for independence, with 95% of the population voting for a independent state of Macedonia.October 1991*: Macedonia proclaims its independence from Yugoslavia and becomes the Republic of Macedonia. However, it is recognized as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM).1993*: Accession to the United Nations.*

[jamie_1875]

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How have other countries become independent and become members of the UN?

Well here's one example

June 1991*: Croatia and Slovenia declare their independence from Yugoslavia, and are fully recognized by the international community.September 8 1991*: Macedonia held a national referendum for independence, with 95% of the population voting for a independent state of Macedonia.October 1991*: Macedonia proclaims its independence from Yugoslavia and becomes the Republic of Macedonia. However, it is recognized as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRoM).1993*: Accession to the United Nations.*

If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

[Moulin Yarns]

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If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

As I understand it, every modern independent country declared independence with referendum and petition the international court of justice at the UN

[jamie_1875]

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As I understand it, every modern independent country declared independence with referendum and petition the international court of justice at the UN

Its a confusing picture as that is not what seems to be suggested, there seems to be a suggestion that having 100 Indy MSPs will somehow trigger some UN involvement, not sure what though.

If the route is the UN looks at referendums then surely they look at 2014.

I am just not following what this new strategy is and what the expected UN involvement is going to be. As far as I can see it has zero support amongst the Indy mainstream parties.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Its a confusing picture as that is not what seems to be suggested, there seems to be a suggestion that having 100 Indy MSPs will somehow trigger some UN involvement, not sure what though.

If the route is the UN looks at referendums then surely they look at 2014.

I am just not following what this new strategy is and what the expected UN involvement is going to be. As far as I can see it has zero support amongst the Indy mainstream parties.

I didn't say that they look at referendums!

[jamie_1875]

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I didn't say that they look at referendums!

In the example quoted it was Macedonia. I just don't see how the UN get involved after the Holyrood elections and it having any significance. If that's what people believe will happen then that's fair enough.

[Andy Bee]

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If Scotland does become Independent then I have no doubt it joins the UN. What I don't understand is what the UN are expected to do if the scenario of 100 Indy supporting MSP are voted in at Holyrood. The day after Antonio Guterres picks up the phone and calls Keir Starmer and says "right Keir that's the SNP, Greens and Alba won a big majority so I am now going to begin the break up of the UK"

That's obviously not happening so what is it the UN can offer in this situation that I am obviously missing? What is legally binding and under what law etc?

There's a process in place started by an organisation called Sottish Liberation Movement whereby they've employed the services of a Swiss (IIRC) NGO to bring forward the case that Scotland should be recognised as a colony and included on the UN list of colonised countries. A democratic event is needed i.e. an election or referendum to show that the Scottish people want Independence and the UN can step in and facilitate a referendum using their franchise. A return of around 100 Indy supporting MSPs would go a long way in showing that Indy is indeed wanted by a large amount of the people. Not saying it'll be easy but it's another process which can be investigated other than waiting for Westminsters approval.

[Hibs4185]

I can’t see 100 Independece supporting MSP’s ever being achieved but as long as there is a simple majority then that should suffice.

[Stairway 2 7]

The UN nonsense is a fringe idea that obviously isn't going anywhere and isn't known by about 99.9% of the population. Independence should and will only come from a national referendum. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's putting to bed the culture wars and will hopefully push for one in the next 5 to 10 years. I'm confident demographics will get Independence in the next referendum

[Andy Bee]

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The UN nonsense is a fringe idea that obviously isn't going anywhere and isn't known by about 99.9% of the population. Independence should and will only come from a national referendum. Thankfully Swinney looks like he's putting to bed the culture wars and will hopefully push for one in the next 5 to 10 years. I'm confident demographics will get Independence in the next referendum

I agree it's a fringe idea but both you and me or anyone else for that matter can't label it "nonsense" and "isn't going anywhere", we simply don't know enough about it. Sara Salyers who has devoted a huge amount of her life looking into Scottish historical constitutional matters and Prof Alf Baird who's an expert in maritime law and colonisation matters with two books under his belt on the subject think this process may work so they're trying, credit to them for that. They don't deserve the insinuation of being some kind of mentalists that's for sure.

[jamie_1875]

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There's a process in place started by an organisation called Sottish Liberation Movement whereby they've employed the services of a Swiss (IIRC) NGO to bring forward the case that Scotland should be recognised as a colony and included on the UN list of colonised countries. A democratic event is needed i.e. an election or referendum to show that the Scottish people want Independence and the UN can step in and facilitate a referendum using their franchise. A return of around 100 Indy supporting MSPs would go a long way in showing that Indy is indeed wanted by a large amount of the people. Not saying it'll be easy but it's another process which can be investigated other than waiting for Westminsters approval.

A democratic event like the 2024 General Election? What would the UN make of that when Indy parties got less than 40% of the vote I believe.

When even a mentalist like Pete Wishart thinks it's mental and unhinged then you do have to consider if it is.

"I just don't get this 'Scotland is a colony stuff'. There are few Scots who actually feel colonised and most think this is bonkers"

"Most voters think it's nuts and not remotely in tune with their experience of living here. We've got to be really careful we don't turn people away at this crucial stage."

I just don't see anything coming from it, imagine having that conversation on the doorsteps. Let's not talk about the NHS or Education let's talk about how you feel about your colonialist status?

I also don't understand why some Swiss body is involved, why Swiss and not Scottish? Very little adds up.

Doesn't a colony have no political representation? We have a parliament that can make it's own laws and we democratically elect MPs to the UK Parliament to represent us as well. It fails at the first hurdle.

[Andy Bee]

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A democratic event like the 2024 General Election? What would the UN make of that when Indy parties got less than 40% of the vote I believe.

When even a mentalist like Pete Wishart thinks it's mental and unhinged then you do have to consider if it is.

"I just don't get this 'Scotland is a colony stuff'. There are few Scots who actually feel colonised and most think this is bonkers"

"Most voters think it's nuts and not remotely in tune with their experience of living here. We've got to be really careful we don't turn people away at this crucial stage."

I just don't see anything coming from it, imagine having that conversation on the doorsteps. Let's not talk about the NHS or Education let's talk about how you feel about your colonialist status?

I also don't understand why some Swiss body is involved, why Swiss and not Scottish? Very little adds up.

Doesn't a colony have no political representation? We have a parliament that can make it's own laws and we democratically elect MPs to the UK Parliament to represent us as well. It fails at the first hurdle.

Pete Wishart would think that because the UN approach doesn't include any political interference at all. He'd effectively be out his cushy little number at Westminster.

Scotland is not a member of the UN obviously so it can't represent itself.

I mentioned Prof Alf Bairds books, read "Doun-Hauden" and then come back to me when you've got some kind of understanding of what colonisation actually is, my point is nobody feels colonised, that's how it works.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doun-Hauden.../dp/B086Y6MMH2

[Stairway 2 7]

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Pete Wishart would think that because the UN approach doesn't include any political interference at all. He'd effectively be out his cushy little number at Westminster.

Scotland is not a member of the UN obviously so it can't represent itself.

I mentioned Prof Alf Bairds books, read "Doun-Hauden" and then come back to me when you've got some kind of understanding of what colonisation actually is, my point is nobody feels colonised, that's how it works.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doun-Hauden.../dp/B086Y6MMH2

Colony is insulting to people who were colonised. Unlike somewhere like India we have a proportional amount of MPs in the UK parliament, our block grant is greater than our population share, every adult in the nation got a vote a decade ago whether to stay in a union or have independence, the Scottish people chose a union. We'll see where it goes but I think there is as much chance of hearts beating us in the top 6 this season as us getting independence through this

[Andy Bee]

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Colony is insulting to people who were colonised. Unlike somewhere like India we have a proportional amount of MPs in the UK parliament, our block grant is greater than our population share, every adult in the nation got a vote a decade ago whether to stay in a union or have independence, the Scottish people chose a union. We'll see where it goes but I think there is as much chance of hearts beating us in the top 6 this season as us getting independence through this

I'm pretty sure there's not a whole load of Indians cursing us Scottish for the mere fact of thinking we're in a colony.

"Google, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony, according to the UN, is a territory under the political control of a foreign power, often one that is distant, with a subordinate colonial government. It's essentially a piece of land controlled by another country. The term "colony" is now frequently replaced with "dependent territory".

"Wikipedia, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony is a territory subject to a form of foreign rule, [1] which rules the territory and its indigenous peoples separated from the foreign rulers.

What is a colony Cambridge Dictionary?

colony [noun] (a group of people who form) a settlement in one country etc which is under the rule of another country. colony [noun] a group of people having the same interests, living close together. colony [noun] a collection of animals, birds etc, of one type, living together. settlement [noun] a small community.

What is the UN definition of colonization?
It designates processes through which a State acquires or maintains full or partial political control over another sovereign nation, or subjugation of groups or entities over others, including terms such as economic, cultural, or ideological colonialism.

I'll rely on all the above quotes from, I think you'll agree, reputable sources. I'll refrain from arguing about it because I don't know enough but the fact is neither do you. Simply to say you don't feel colonised doesn't mean you're not.