Reform

[superfurryhibby]

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Blaming Corbyn while Labour get outflanked on the left....?

Corbyn and many other people on the far left had a long held distaste for the EU. NO surprise that he struggled to muster a passionate defence of it really.

[grunt]

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Corbyn and many other people on the far left had a long held distaste for the EU. NO surprise that he struggled to muster a passionate defence of it really.

Allowing his personal feelings to override what is plainly best for the country? Thank god we were spared a Corbyn Government.

[lapsedhibee]

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Allowing his personal feelings to override what is plainly best for the country? Thank god we were spared a Corbyn Government.

The Corbyn/lefty position on the EU at least made a bit of sense, in that free movement has the potential to lower wages for workers of the world. The righty position, that the EU was holding Britain back from being a global superpower again, made no sense at all.

[Bostonhibby]

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Allowing his personal feelings to override what is plainly best for the country? Thank god we were spared a Corbyn Government.

You're right but on the personal feelings/ambition point it's remarkable how the pro EU
Bozo quickly flipped to the leader of Brexit when the numbers suggested that was the way to jump in the inward looking Tory Leadership contest at the time, and beyond.

Like most aspects, personal aggrandisement came first.

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[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm not saying Corbyn would have been a brilliant PM or any of that stuff, though I think the idea that the rise of Reform rests on his crap Brexit campaigning is inventing a whole new level of reductionism.

everywhere around the world, liberalism is failing and fascism is rising. it's not Corbyn's fault.

[Bostonhibby]

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I'm not saying Corbyn would have been a brilliant PM or any of that stuff, though I think the idea that the rise of Reform rests on his crap Brexit campaigning is inventing a whole new level of reductionism.

everywhere around the world, liberalism is failing and fascism is rising. it's not Corbyn's fault.

Makes sense as well, my issue with Corbyn, as a Labour supporter/try to be socialist was simply that my feeling was that most of his potential electorate was pro Remain and he was weak bordering on non existent on the subject.

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[superfurryhibby]

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Allowing his personal feelings to override what is plainly best for the country? Thank god we were spared a Corbyn Government.

If I remember correctly the Brexit issue was one in which people campaigned on a non aligned basis, although Labour's official position was to support remain?

As for thanking god, I suggest if the big man in the sky existed, Corbyn's compassion for other human beings would have been far better received than the charlatan's that were in power.

[grunt]

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If I remember correctly the Brexit issue was one in which people campaigned on a non aligned basis, although Labour's official position was to support remain?

I think my point still stands. He was completely wrong on Brexit. He'd have been a disastrous PM.

[Bostonhibby]

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I think my point still stands. He was completely wrong on Brexit. He'd have been a disastrous PM.

We were very fortunate to avoid a misguided conviction politician as leader, and get the waiter & Bozo who managed a couple of fines, and we had the statesman like leadership of Dim Lizzy, Bozo and the waiter along the way.

Suppose 4 wrongs wouldn't make a right but I think Corbyn probably had more honesty and integrity about him even though he didn't get my vote.

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[AgentDaleCooper]

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I think my point still stands. He was completely wrong on Brexit. He'd have been a disastrous PM.

that can all be totally true without him being responsible for the rise of Reform or Liberalism's current existential crisis.

[superfurryhibby]

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We were very fortunate to avoid a misguided conviction politician as leader, and get the waiter & Bozo who managed a couple of fines, and we had the statesman like leadership of Dim Lizzy, Bozo and the waiter along the way.

Suppose 4 wrongs wouldn't make a right but I think Corbyn probably had more honesty and integrity about him even though he didn't get my vote.

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I didn't vote Labour either but I think Corbyn had more integrity than all of the others combined.

[grunt]

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We were very fortunate to avoid a misguided conviction politician as leader, and get the waiter & Bozo who managed a couple of fines, and we had the statesman like leadership of Dim Lizzy, Bozo and the waiter along the way.

Suppose 4 wrongs wouldn't make a right but I think Corbyn probably had more honesty and integrity about him even though he didn't get my vote.

To be clear I have no doubts about his honesty and integrity, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. But I think he was a weak leader who was clearly 100% wrong about Brexit, which is for me the defining policy of the last 10 years. Anyone who follows my posts on here knows what I think of the Lying Tories.

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that can all be totally true without him being responsible for the rise of Reform or Liberalism's current existential crisis.

Agreed, and I don't think I suggested he was. Certainly didn't intend to.

[Bostonhibby]

Grunt

No bother, definitely wasn't how I read your post.

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[Stairway 2 7]

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Allowing his personal feelings to override what is plainly best for the country? Thank god we were spared a Corbyn Government.

Not counting war (like Ukraine has destroyed the Russian economy or ww2 to Germany) I don't think there has been a worse political self harm a nation has done to itself. Corbyn is complicate with his Laissez-faire attitude.

[grunt]

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Not counting war (like Ukraine has destroyed the Russian economy or ww2 to Germany) I don't think there has been a worse political self harm a nation has done to itself.

You'll get no argument from me on this.

[superfurryhibby]

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Not counting war (like Ukraine has destroyed the Russian economy or ww2 to Germany) I don't think there has been a worse political self harm a nation has done to itself. Corbyn is complicate with his Laissez-faire attitude.

How can Corbyn be complicit (in what exactly ?) when he never held power to influence any decision ?

[AgentDaleCooper]

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How can Corbyn be complicit (in what exactly ?) when he never held power to influence any decision ?

basically, the most significant cause of Brexit was his failure to campaign hard enough, and this is why Liberalism in the UK is faltering. Corbyn is who we have to thank for the rising cost of living, the housing crisis, and basically everything else, because his singular failure to campaign properly is the key counterfactual element to understanding the entire UK political landscape. Pointing to any other failures of Liberalism (I mean - are there any?) is simply distracting from the fact that Corbyn and the Left have cost us everything.

it's got nothing to do with the centre's punting of every possible service to the private sector (often by stealth), in spite of this being totally counter to UK public opinion (sauce - yougov poll on nationalisation

if Reform UK take advantage of this - as they said they would in their previous manifesto, and have continued to signal towards r.e. Thames Water etc. - it's still Corbyn's fault.

If any vaguely left-leaning criticism is made of the centre, a completely valid response is "yeah, but at least we didn't get Corbyn", because acknowledgement of any left-wing criticisms of the political centre (save for some frustration about the lack of new housing being built) is essentially tacit support of Corbyn, the man who single handedly contributed more towards Brexit than any other politician in living memory - certainly more than Blair, Brown, the entire New Labour project, whose role in alienating the working classes of the UK was only superficial.

[superfurryhibby]

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basically, the most significant cause of Brexit was his failure to campaign hard enough, and this is why Liberalism in the UK is faltering. Corbyn is who we have to thank for the rising cost of living, the housing crisis, and basically everything else, because his singular failure to campaign properly is the key counterfactual element to understanding the entire UK political landscape. Pointing to any other failures of Liberalism (I mean - are there any?) is simply distracting from the fact that Corbyn and the Left have cost us everything.

it's got nothing to do with the centre's punting of every possible service to the private sector (often by stealth), in spite of this being totally counter to UK public opinion (sauce - yougov poll on nationalisation

if Reform UK take advantage of this - as they said they would in their previous manifesto, and have continued to signal towards r.e. Thames Water etc. - it's still Corbyn's fault.

If any vaguely left-leaning criticism is made of the centre, a completely valid response is "yeah, but at least we didn't get Corbyn", because acknowledgement of any left-wing criticisms of the political centre (save for some frustration about the lack of new housing being built) is essentially tacit support of Corbyn, the man who single handedly contributed more towards Brexit than any other politician in living memory - certainly more than Blair, Brown, the entire New Labour project, whose role in alienating the working classes of the UK was only superficial.

Labour and the left should have stood firm with their beliefs. There was a chance to build on a groundswell of discontent with endless right wing government. Our undemocratic electoral system and the self serving professional political class ensured they didn't, but in time of rising fascism they would have a radical alternative to the greedy ******* interests who control our politicians.

[Bostonhibby]

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basically, the most significant cause of Brexit was his failure to campaign hard enough, and this is why Liberalism in the UK is faltering. Corbyn is who we have to thank for the rising cost of living, the housing crisis, and basically everything else, because his singular failure to campaign properly is the key counterfactual element to understanding the entire UK political landscape. Pointing to any other failures of Liberalism (I mean - are there any?) is simply distracting from the fact that Corbyn and the Left have cost us everything.

it's got nothing to do with the centre's punting of every possible service to the private sector (often by stealth), in spite of this being totally counter to UK public opinion (sauce - yougov poll on nationalisation

if Reform UK take advantage of this - as they said they would in their previous manifesto, and have continued to signal towards r.e. Thames Water etc. - it's still Corbyn's fault.

If any vaguely left-leaning criticism is made of the centre, a completely valid response is "yeah, but at least we didn't get Corbyn", because acknowledgement of any left-wing criticisms of the political centre (save for some frustration about the lack of new housing being built) is essentially tacit support of Corbyn, the man who single handedly contributed more towards Brexit than any other politician in living memory - certainly more than Blair, Brown, the entire New Labour project, whose role in alienating the working classes of the UK was only superficial.

Very well put sir

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[superfurryhibby]

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Very well put sir

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You do realise he's being ironic?

[Bostonhibby]

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You do realise he's being ironic?

Oh yes

Living where I do I'm never far from hearing about what it would have been like under Corbyn, and all the ghastly things he would have done......and is still responsible for now.

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[Keith_M]

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You do realise he's being ironic?

I would have said sarcastic, but yeah.





Anyway, how come nobody's mentioned anti-semitism yet?

[Bostonhibby]

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I would have said sarcastic, but yeah.





Anyway, how come nobody's mentioned anti-semitism yet?

The Daily Mail, Daily Express,Times and Daily Telegraph "journalists" don't read Hibs.net?

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[Keith_M]

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The Daily Mail, Daily Express,Times and Daily Telegraph "journalists" don't read Hibs.net?

[superfurryhibby]

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I would have said sarcastic, but yeah.





Anyway, how come nobody's mentioned anti-semitism yet?

Sarcasm is the poor man's irony, no one ever said :-)

[Stairway 2 7]

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How can Corbyn be complicit (in what exactly ?) when he never held power to influence any decision ?

He had the power as the leader of the opposition to campaign against brexit. He was clearly not fussy either way on the outcome and it showed. SNP and Lib Dems weren't in power but both campaigned strongly for remain. Lots of people are influenced by what there party says so every leader had power to influence.

I know a number of my dad's old Trot pals were wanting brexit due to despising the big business EU. It was beyond nieve to think we'd go more left wing outwith the EU. More than that it was a financial disaster we pay for every day. Labour should have been screaming vote remain

[grunt]

Anyway, about Reform ...

[jamie_1875]

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Anyway, about Reform ...

If a French or German billionaire donated £100M to the campaign to get the UK back into the EU (or Scottish Independence or whatever cause you may support) would you similarly claim it was not on and should be banned?

Not a question intentionally directed at you, but if the large cash donation was to support and further a cause that people themselves also also strongly supported I wonder if they would feel it was similarly wrong and should not be allowed.

[Ozyhibby]

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If a French or German billionaire donated £100M to the campaign to get the UK back into the EU (or Scottish Independence or whatever cause you may support) would you similarly claim it was not on and should be banned?

Not a question intentionally directed at you, but if the large cash donation was to support and further a cause that people themselves also also strongly supported I wonder if they would feel it was similarly wrong and should not be allowed.

I would ban all foreign donations completely and all corporate or union donations up to the level of £1000.
All funding would need to be based on membership fees and a level of state funding on top based on the size of party membership.
Labour had party finance reform in their manifesto but have now decided it’s too lucrative if your in power.


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[grunt]

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If a French or German billionaire donated £100M to the campaign to get the UK back into the EU (or Scottish Independence or whatever cause you may support) would you similarly claim it was not on and should be banned?

Not a question intentionally directed at you, but if the large cash donation was to support and further a cause that people themselves also also strongly supported I wonder if they would feel it was similarly wrong and should not be allowed.

I'd like to think I would disapprove of this, although you're correct to point out that it would be a struggle. But democracy is about everyone having the same right to vote, and buying access is wrong. I hated it under the Lying Tories, I'd like to believe my conscience would keep me right even if it was in my own interest.