Congestion charges and low emission zones

[McD]

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I drive a taxi and see these vehicles every day in the New Town of Edinburgh, try driving along some of these narrow streets taken up by huge petrol guzzling 3ltr SUV's, not just the New Town BTW but all over the centre of town, as has been said the size of cars has increased and with small narrow streets that we have, these vehicles are unsuitable for city centre travel, purely a status symbol nowadays.

I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here.

The only addition I’d make to this point, is that those huge SUV’s do cause a huge amount of problems, but there are many smaller SUV style cars that aren’t any bigger than other cars’ footprints, of which a huge proportion have 1ltr and 1.2ltr engines. For example, a Vauxhall cross lane has a similar footprint to a Corsa, the Grandland similar to an Astra, in terms of the space they take up.

I completely agree about the huge Audi Q7s and similar sized vehicles, they are unnecessarily oversized, as are some saloon cars.


Many manufacturers are turning to SUV type cars, Volkswagen for example must have about 7 of those styles in their range when you include crossover types. Perhaps some government legislation about maximum car sizes could help? More heavily tax the purchase and use of cars over a certain physical size and/or engine size? I’m asking that as a genuine point, I’m keen to hear other’s viewpoints on how we fix a growing problem whilst still supporting people’s abilities to move themselves and families around towns and cities.

I think a multi-tier approach may be the best way to address the situation - traffic infrastructure given better investment and maintenance, affordable, reliable and not overly time consuming public transport, incentives (positive and negative) to get out the car and use public transport, huge efforts put into public awareness of the damage (on all levels) caused by excessive traffic, joined up approaches with governments and local authorities all singing from the same hymn sheet across Scotland and the uk, and probably more than that. All of that costs a lot of money though.


On a related point, I’m interested in your thoughts J-C, as a taxi driver, and anyone else who is on the city centre frequently - logic would suggest that in this new age of hybrid working and working from home being much more prevalent than pre-covid, that the volume of traffic would be less than pre-covid, but evidence such as you’ve given here, and from others, and my own experience, is that traffic seems even busier/greater than before covid, what do you think?

[Pretty Boy]

I've long been primarily a pedestrian in Edinburgh. I have a car and use it but for years my 5 mile each way commute was a walk. I've recently moved location and my 10 mile (also each way) commute is now a cycle. One of the things that has always got me over the years is the claim that Edinburgh as a city 'hates motorists'. The city is still massively carcentric and infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists, whilst improved, is still miles behind cities in Scandinavia, the Netherlands or even London.

Add to that the stigma around cycling. Even guys I get on well with in work have started with the 'bike nonce' patter. I can take a joke so just laugh it off but it's something that seems to transcend political divides. I saw a well kent lefty talking about 'pedalphiles' the other day and suggesting that active travel was somehow 'bourgeois' (ironic really because I largely made the choice to cycle to my new office because the additional petrol costs were excessive). I can have a laugh and know some of that is banter but I'm not convinced fuelling the fire of a conflict between motorists and cyclist and pedestrians is healthy and there is undoubtedly groups for whom it's not a joke and it a deep seated nastiness.

I don't think either our public transport or non motorised infrastructure is anywhere near good enough to tempt enough people out of their cars yet. At the time I travel I can drive my commute in 20 minutes or cycle it in 40. The bus takes 65 minutes on a good day. Until that improves people are going to persist with their cars as plenty won't be willing or simply won't have the time to add 90 minutes to their working day in travel time.

[J-C]

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I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here.

The only addition I’d make to this point, is that those huge SUV’s do cause a huge amount of problems, but there are many smaller SUV style cars that aren’t any bigger than other cars’ footprints, of which a huge proportion have 1ltr and 1.2ltr engines. For example, a Vauxhall cross lane has a similar footprint to a Corsa, the Grandland similar to an Astra, in terms of the space they take up.

I completely agree about the huge Audi Q7s and similar sized vehicles, they are unnecessarily oversized, as are some saloon cars.


Many manufacturers are turning to SUV type cars, Volkswagen for example must have about 7 of those styles in their range when you include crossover types. Perhaps some government legislation about maximum car sizes could help? More heavily tax the purchase and use of cars over a certain physical size and/or engine size? I’m asking that as a genuine point, I’m keen to hear other’s viewpoints on how we fix a growing problem whilst still supporting people’s abilities to move themselves and families around towns and cities.

I think a multi-tier approach may be the best way to address the situation - traffic infrastructure given better investment and maintenance, affordable, reliable and not overly time consuming public transport, incentives (positive and negative) to get out the car and use public transport, huge efforts put into public awareness of the damage (on all levels) caused by excessive traffic, joined up approaches with governments and local authorities all singing from the same hymn sheet across Scotland and the uk, and probably more than that. All of that costs a lot of money though.


On a related point, I’m interested in your thoughts J-C, as a taxi driver, and anyone else who is on the city centre frequently - logic would suggest that in this new age of hybrid working and working from home being much more prevalent than pre-covid, that the volume of traffic would be less than pre-covid, but evidence such as you’ve given here, and from others, and my own experience, is that traffic seems even busier/greater than before covid, what do you think?

Rush hour traffic on certain days is less but the main problem is the new tram system, road closures, diversions and roadworks makes getting about the place a nightmare. Someone mentioned getting from Queen Charlotte St to Dundas St and what way would be easiest. As there is no left on Constitution St or any way through to the shore it's a joke, either right at Constitution St, Bernard St, Shore, Cables Wynd, Bonnington Rd, Broughton Rd, Eyre Pl and then Dundas St. Or through the Links to Duke St, Leith Walk, McDonald Rd, the Bonnington Rd etc.

I'd also add that with all the new tramways and cycleways narrowing all the main thoroughfares, these routes are crammed with cars even outwith the rush hour due to less lanes for the cars to drive in causing bottlenecks, add in new traffic light sequences that seem to fight against each other meaning it's all stop and go (if you've driven down Leith walk you'll know what I mean).

[lapsedhibee]

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Add to that the stigma around cycling. Even guys I get on well with in work have started with the 'bike nonce' patter. I can take a joke so just laugh it off but it's something that seems to transcend political divides. I saw a well kent lefty talking about 'pedalphiles' the other day and suggesting that active travel was somehow 'bourgeois' (ironic really because I largely made the choice to cycle to my new office because the additional petrol costs were excessive). I can have a laugh and know some of that is banter but I'm not convinced fuelling the fire of a conflict between motorists and cyclist and pedestrians is healthy and there is undoubtedly groups for whom it's not a joke and it a deep seated nastiness.

Such a shame that social media, and the internet in general, allow the 'thoughts' of Joey Barton to disseminate so quickly and so widely. Or indeed at all.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I've long been primarily a pedestrian in Edinburgh. I have a car and use it but for years my 5 mile each way commute was a walk. I've recently moved location and my 10 mile (also each way) commute is now a cycle. One of the things that has always got me over the years is the claim that Edinburgh as a city 'hates motorists'. The city is still massively carcentric and infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists, whilst improved, is still miles behind cities in Scandinavia, the Netherlands or even London.

Add to that the stigma around cycling. Even guys I get on well with in work have started with the 'bike nonce' patter. I can take a joke so just laugh it off but it's something that seems to transcend political divides. I saw a well kent lefty talking about 'pedalphiles' the other day and suggesting that active travel was somehow 'bourgeois' (ironic really because I largely made the choice to cycle to my new office because the additional petrol costs were excessive). I can have a laugh and know some of that is banter but I'm not convinced fuelling the fire of a conflict between motorists and cyclist and pedestrians is healthy and there is undoubtedly groups for whom it's not a joke and it a deep seated nastiness.

I don't think either our public transport or non motorised infrastructure is anywhere near good enough to tempt enough people out of their cars yet. At the time I travel I can drive my commute in 20 minutes or cycle it in 40. The bus takes 65 minutes on a good day. Until that improves people are going to persist with their cars as plenty won't be willing or simply won't have the time to add 90 minutes to their working day in travel time.

Admittedly this is from the 1970s, but I lived in wester hailes and worked at the west end. My mum worked at John menzies in the middle of Princes Street. There were no bus lanes back then. I could walk to and from work in less time than my mum on the bus.

[Just Alf]

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It can't be women driving in all the above streets mentioned as 9.5/10 chances are the car needs reversed into a space

Oh oh!

[RyeSloan]

So LEZ landed today and guess what…High Street and surrounding areas nose to tail top to bottom all day. Thousands of tourists being forced to suck in all the idling traffic emissions.

Why?

Park closed (hardly a soul in sight near the road)

Temp traffic lights at bottom of St Mary’s St.


God knows that the tourists must have thought of clean air Edinburgh if they were anywhere near there today!

[Ozyhibby]

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So LEZ landed today and guess what…High Street and surrounding areas nose to tail top to bottom all day. Thousands of tourists being forced to suck in all the idling traffic emissions.

Why?

Park closed (hardly a soul in sight near the road)

Temp traffic lights at bottom of St Mary’s St.


God knows that the tourists must have thought of clean air Edinburgh if they were anywhere near there today!

Sounds like it’s best leave the car at home if you want to go into the city.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/num...orld-increases

Even poorly designed cycle ways increase the amount of people using bikes. The more we build cycle lanes the better for everyone.


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[Pretty Boy]

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https://news.stv.tv/east-central/num...orld-increases

Even poorly designed cycle ways increase the amount of people using bikes. The more we build cycle lanes the better for everyone.


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I haven't looked back since getting my bike a couple of months ago.

Most of my commute is off road but there is a nice wee cycle lane at St Leonards and again approaching the Meadows that I use and they definitely help make everything feel a bit safer.

I had to drive to work the other day and was pining for my bike, I had forgotten how much the Bypass annoys me. In terms of time the bike only adds about 5-7 minutes each way to my day and on days when there is a breakdown or accident on the Bypass it's quicker.

[Bristolhibby]

Why not electric busses and Taxies? Got off at Heathrow on Monday coming back from Germany and waiting for my bus, nearly every taxi was an e Taxi. Solves the clean air issue and good for carbon neutrality.

J

[Ozyhibby]

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Why not electric busses and Taxies? Got off at Heathrow on Monday coming back from Germany and waiting for my bus, nearly every taxi was an e Taxi. Solves the clean air issue and good for carbon neutrality.

J

E vehicles solve the air issue but not the congestion issue. There are just too many vehicles for our roads. And it’s not helped by them all getting bigger and heavier.
Buses and Taxis help but not as much as bikes and e-bikes.


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[J-C]

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Why not electric busses and Taxies? Got off at Heathrow on Monday coming back from Germany and waiting for my bus, nearly every taxi was an e Taxi. Solves the clean air issue and good for carbon neutrality.

J

LEV taxis have range of around 80 miles, then it's over to a petrol engine, cost around £70k.

[grunt]

Recognise these Edinburgh houses, this Edinburgh street with the LTN in place?

It's in the quiet Edinburgh suburb called Manchester ...

[Jack]

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Recognise these Edinburgh houses, this Edinburgh street with the LTN in place?

It's in the quiet Edinburgh suburb called Manchester ...

Edinburgh Live do this so often it's ridiculous.

It's as if they don't expect anyone from Edinburgh will notice their stories or photos or both are unrelated to Edinburgh!

Who cares these days? It's just about the clicks.

[Stairway 2 7]

Wales reducing the speed limit to 20mph in all built up areas caused a 32% reduction in casualties. Insurance claims dropped 20% and it saved the NHS and other emergency services millions. It's a no brainer really

https://www.transportxtra.com/public...er-20mph-limit

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpw8envvv0do

Unexpected consequences. 40% of children walked or cycled to school in London since the introduction of the ULEZ. Win,win.

[Ozyhibby]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpw8envvv0do

Unexpected consequences. 40% of children walked or cycled to school in London since the introduction of the ULEZ. Win,win.

The more we discourage cars from our cities, the better our quality of life will be.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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The more we discourage cars from our cities, the better our quality of life will be.


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Saw a study that said 2000 people switched from driving to cycling half an hour each way. At the end of 12 months they lost on average 14 lbs. Obesity costs the NHS £6.5 billion per year yet people complain about the money spent on active travel, it's money in the bank from saving the NHS. That's not including money spent on mental health which exercise shows to benefit or cities that seem to flourish with less cars

[Stairway 2 7]

17,000 LEZ fines in the first 3 months in Edinburgh. Surprised the numbers are consistent across the 3 months thought there would be a larger drop off

https://archive.is/6hQdv

[J-C]

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17,000 LEZ fines in the first 3 months in Edinburgh. Surprised the numbers are consistent across the 3 months thought there would be a larger drop off

https://archive.is/6hQdv

I see absolutely no difference in traffic congestion since it all kicked in, a big money making scheme.

[tamig]

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I see absolutely no difference in traffic congestion since it all kicked in, a big money making scheme.

Agreed.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I see absolutely no difference in traffic congestion since it all kicked in, a big money making scheme.

Is it about congestion, though? If emissions have been reduced in the centre, that's the main aim, isn't it? Money, and less congestion, would be a bonus.

I think there needs to be a longer-term study of (all) its effects before we can properly assess whether it has been successful.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Is it about congestion, though? If emissions have been reduced in the centre, that's the main aim, isn't it? Money, and less congestion, would be a bonus.

I think there needs to be a longer-term study of (all) its effects before we can properly assess whether it has been successful.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/children-switch-to-walking-and-cycling-to-school-after-introduction-of-londons-ultra-low-emission

The first study of London LEZ is positive.

[J-C]

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Is it about congestion, though? If emissions have been reduced in the centre, that's the main aim, isn't it? Money, and less congestion, would be a bonus.

I think there needs to be a longer-term study of (all) its effects before we can properly assess whether it has been successful.

Congestion causes pollution, does the air realise it's not allowed over the city centre, when the wind blows, pollution travels, there are as many cars now as there was prior to the exclusion zones, moving it from George St to Queen St doesn't get rid of it, it just moves it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Funny enough just now in the Herald. I do think it's a shame generally the people with less income have older cars. I think it'll just be getting set up as this and when older cars naturally get phased out they will switch to congestion charge. Especially as they will get used to that money being in the budget

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...n-levels-drop/

Glasgow’s Low Emission Zone is having a promising impact on air pollution according to new data released.

The latest Air Quality Annual Progress Report shows that levels of nitrogen dioxide in the city centre and LEZ area has dropped by 20 percent compared to diffusion tube monitoring from the previous year

[lapsedhibee]

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Congestion causes pollution, does the air realise it's not allowed over the city centre, when the wind blows, pollution travels, there are as many cars now as there was prior to the exclusion zones, moving it from George St to Queen St doesn't get rid of it, it just moves it.

Are you missing the main point of LEZ, that it discourages the worst of polluting vehicles from coming in to the city centre? Don't think anyone was pretending that it would stop pollution. (1) Every little helps. (2) Rome wasn't built in three months.

[J-C]

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Are you missing the main point of LEZ, that it discourages the worst of polluting vehicles from coming in to the city centre? Don't think anyone was pretending that it would stop pollution. (1) Every little helps. (2) Rome wasn't built in three months.

I realise that but the size of the LEZ is ridiculous, to make a proper impact it has to be a much wider area, certain part of Edinburgh has not changed and in fact seem worse, Corstorphine and Stockbridge as examples, I drive a taxi and have seen almost little difference in the amount of traffic still coming through the city centre area. During the summer the huge increase tour buses and tourist cars caused the usual mayhem around the Mound, St Andrews Sq, Waterloo Pl and Nth Bridge/E End. Just look at the carnage around Picardy area with the new traffic system around the tram stop where everything comes to a halt as all the cars slowly bit by bit make their way around that area. The ideas are well meaning but the implementation of the traffic systems in Edinburgh are just shocking.

[lapsedhibee]

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I realise that but the size of the LEZ is ridiculous, to make a proper impact it has to be a much wider area, certain part of Edinburgh has not changed and in fact seem worse, Corstorphine and Stockbridge as examples, I drive a taxi and have seen almost little difference in the amount of traffic still coming through the city centre area. During the summer the huge increase tour buses and tourist cars caused the usual mayhem around the Mound, St Andrews Sq, Waterloo Pl and Nth Bridge/E End. Just look at the carnage around Picardy area with the new traffic system around the tram stop where everything comes to a halt as all the cars slowly bit by bit make their way around that area. The ideas are well meaning but the implementation of the traffic systems in Edinburgh are just shocking.

Yes, Picardy Place is not great (or York Place, feeding in to it). Are you arguing for the introduction of a prohibitive congestion charge, to help solve the problems you mention?

[J-C]

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Yes, Picardy Place is not great (or York Place, feeding in to it). Are you arguing for the introduction of a prohibitive congestion charge, to help solve the problems you mention?

The LEZ isn't big enough to really make much difference and only shifts the problems to nearby streets, their should have been a total ban on cars in the city centre but remember the council make a fortune in meter prices and parking tickets, they don't want to lose that source of income.

You cannot invite cars into the city centre by having multi storey car parks and street parking and then in the same breath complain about the amount of cars entering the city.